← HerMoney with Jean Chatzky
HerMoney with Jean Chatzky
Ep 510: How to Be a Rich Old Lady (And Love Every Minute of It) with Amanda Holden
00:35:50
Learn how to build wealth, ditch the jargon, and invest for the future you really want.
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- [00:03]
A
But that has a lot of people looking at the composition of something like a US Stock market index fund, the most popular one being AN S&P 500 index fund, and saying, wait a minute here. 40% of this thing is now made up by seven tech companies, seven AI companies. Right? Is that as safe as we once thought it was? Hey, everyone.
- [00:30]
B
Welcome to Her Money. I'm Jean Chi Chatsky. As we step into 2026 and close the door on 2025, I can't even believe I'm saying that. I do want to take a moment to celebrate a major win for women. According to research from Fidelity, 71% of women now own investments in the stock market, up from just 60% in 2023. That is huge. A ship like this really matters because if we want our money to grow and to keep working for us, we have to be invested. We have to ensure that we're outpacing inflation and taxes, full stop. But here's the part that still needs work. Our confidence. While the majority of women are investing, far fewer actually see ourselves as investors. That same Fidelity survey found that only 35% of women identify as as investors, compared to 52% of men. And confidence is not just a mindset. It actually shapes our behavior. Confident investors put their money to work for the long term. They make informed moves. My guest today is on a mission to close that confidence gap and get 100% of women not only investing, but owning their financial prowess. Amanda Holden walked away from a career as a finance bro. Her words, not mine. To launch Invested Development, a financial education platform that's helped over 25,000 women learn to invest with clarity and strategy. She saw firsthand how the system too often gatekeeps the most powerful tools from women, from young people, from anyone who doesn't already look like they belong on Wall Street. And she decided, enough of that. Now she's distilled everything she knows into a sharp, hilarious new book called how to be a Rich Old Lady. Your guide to easy investing, building wealth, and creating the wild, beautiful life you want. And today, she's here to help us start 2026 offer right. By stepping into our power as investors and building a future that feels not just secure, but rich in every possible way. Amanda, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.
- [03:03]
A
Thank you so much, Jean. What an incredible introduction.
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B
Well, thank you so much for that. Tell me why it is that the financial system feels so overly complicated, especially for women.
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A
Well, first of all, it's all made up. It is this system that if it feels like when you're trying to navigate it. It's like learning a foreign language. That's because it is, it is an entirely new language that you have to learn. So often my students come to me and they say, well, I'm not going to be good at finance because I'm not good at math. And I tell them it has so much less to do with spreadsheets and math and much more to do with navigating a new language. And that language is the language of money. And how do you practice the language of money? Well, you speak it. And the only way to learn is through practice. And so it requires being in these types of conversations or being in these types of rooms where these conversations are being had. And that was my experience. I started working in finance right after I graduated from school because I just was taking what I thought was the next, right, next step with my economics degree. And I'm looking around and I'm like, oh my goodness, none of these people look like my friends. And these are the rooms where wealth is being discussed. And so this was my first radicalization. And I thought to myself, okay, this isn't right. And what I want to do is take this information and get it to my friends and to the folks. I really want to have this information. Information which are people who have been left out of the conversation.
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B
We are going to take a very quick break. You know, my producer Haley has a big goal for 2026. Finally building that travel fund she has been talking about for years. Real guilt free adventure money. But like any goal, it starts with a plan. And for that she is using Monarch. Managing your money doesn't have to be a struggle this year. Monarch is the all in one personal finance tool designed to make your life easy, easier. It brings your entire financial life, budgeting accounts and investments, net worth and future planning together in one dashboard on your laptop or your phone. Start your new year on the right foot financially and get 50% off your monarch subscription with Code Hermoney. Achieve your financial goals for good. Monarch is the all in one tool that makes proactive money management simple all year long. Use code hermoney@monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code hermoney. You know, I have learned over the years that it's the small things, the ones we do every day, that make the biggest difference whether it's how we spend, save or take care of ourselves. That's why I love recommending AG1. There is no right time for for better health. There's just now our Chief Content Officer Katherine Tuggle uses this every single day and she thinks you should try it too. She loves the berry flavor but original citrus and tropical are all great. So pick your favorite. AG1 has over 50,000 verified 5 star reviews and comes with a 90 day money back guarantee. So go to drinkag1.comhermoney to get their best offer. For a limited time only, get a free AG1 duffel bag and free AG1 welcome kit with your first subscription. Order only while supplies last. That's Drink ag1.comhermoney Drink ag1.comhermoney Tell me a little bit about the process of leaving that world behind to launch Invested Development. Love the name by the way.
- [07:03]
A
Thank you so much. So at first, well, at first I was just wanting to quit and walk away from finance altogether. It was for me a real spiritual mismatch. Helping rich men get richer was probably not going to be my life's calling. I was looking around and I was like, wait a minute here. The only two skills I have are talking about the stock market and sucking up to rich men. And so I gotta figure something else out entirely. And so when I was quitting, I thought thought I was walking away from finance forever. And so I saved up all my money, quit, left, did some traveling. While I was traveling, this obnoxious little idea kept gnawing away at the back of my brain, which was, hey, you have been helping all of your girlfriends with this investing stuff. Maybe there is something here. And so that is when I decided to double back and start a financial literacy business, which is invested development, which at the beginning actually began as a blog. And I thought I might write a manual on investing that I could just hand over to my girlfriends and then really be done for with finance and then really move on to something else. But it's not how it happened. What I learned while I was writing and I started teaching classes live is that there was just so much energy in the rooms when I would get a bunch of women and people, young people together to talk about investing and to talk about our fears and to talk about money in a way that is completely shame free, right? There are no bad questions, all questions are good questions that I was like, oh, I'm really onto something here. People like learning from me as a teacher live much more than they like reading my blog posts about investing, which that makes perfect sense. And so I transitioned my business to focusing on workshops and courses and that is the iteration of the business I've run for about seven or eight years and then, yeah, the most recent offering is I'm finally back to having writing.
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B
A book, how to be a rich old lady. Again. You are clearly very, very good with titles. Right at the start, you invite readers to summon our inner rich old ladies. For someone listening right now, who wants to try this, Walk us through what that visualization exercise looks like.
- [09:32]
A
Yes. And so I have found that this is an exercise we often don't allow ourselves to do. We don't allow ourselves to dream this far into the future. And what I want is for us to feel secure enough to be able to dream into that future. And what I also remind my students is that there's no way around some of this kind of crusty terminology. It can get a little bit dense. And so what I want us to do is keep a face on the process, on the learning process. And that face just happens in to be an adorable, wrinkly version of the face that you have now. And so I really want us to take a minute and picture who that person might be. Where is she, who is she with, what is she wearing?
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B
Right.
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A
What is she doing and who is she with? And that is the person that I want to remind us that we're doing this for. Because it's not really about Roth iras. It's not really about index funds. It's about that person, person and giving that person a chance someday to live in a way that is financially free.
- [10:45]
B
Yeah, you're right. And it's a very, very difficult thing to do. Right. Behavioral economists have struggled with this for a very long time. They know that it's very tough to get me at 61 to imagine me at 81 or 91. That 8191 year old me is, is a stranger. Not as much of a stranger, sadly, as she used to be, but still a stranger. And getting us to step into her shoes is a tough thing to do. Have you, as you sort of envisioned your rich old lady, have you come upon any magic for doing this? I've used the app, right. I've used the photo booth app where I get to see the picture of me aged. I'm a little jowly, don't really love it. But are there other hacks that you use to make it come to life?
- [11:38]
A
Well, for me, the big hack is to just think about how it feels on a weekend when you're not at work. That's really what we're talking about. A rich old lady is really just an avatar for financial independence. And by Financial independence in this sense, financial independence can mean a couple of different things. For women especially, it can mean not relying on a partner for money. But financial independence in the investing sense has a somewhat particular meaning. And that means being able to walk away from work without a paycheck. And I think right now there's a lot of folks out there who are feeling pretty nihilistic about work and the future of work. And so it actually can be quite motivating to imagine a world where you get to untether from labor a bit. And so that's my trick.
- [12:29]
B
As you talk about strategies, you say that it's the gap between what you earn and what you spend that is your most powerful financial tool. I, I agree with this. I put it a different way, that you have to spend less than you make and then save that money. Right. But how do we identify our own gap? And then once we do it, how do we decide what do we actually do with that money to make the most of it?
- [12:57]
A
Sure. And so the gap is where all the magic happens. That's how you make your goals realize. That's how you make your dreams come true. And so that is that amount of money that exists between what you earn and what you spend, like you said. And so how do you know if you have a gap? Well, if you're saving Money to your 401k, if you're not going into to debt, if you've got money that's piling up in your checking account, then you've probably got a gap. And so then the next question for you is, what do we do with that gap? Now before I talk about that, let me just talk about somebody who maybe doesn't.
- [13:36]
B
Doesn't have a gap. Exactly.
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A
Who doesn't have a gap. And if that is you, it's okay. It is really expensive to be alive. And most people are going to go through periods, sometimes prolonged periods, where they don't have a gap. And so that's all right. But what we know is the first order of business for you is to try to work on getting a gap. And so for you, what I don't need you to do is worry too much about Roth IRA versus traditional ira. We want that education for you and we want to get you there. But investing might come next. Right now what I would really love for us to do is figure out a way to either increase our income or, or decrease our spending, or some combination of both. Decreasing spending is the fastest way to do that. Right. Cutting subscriptions, cutting expenses, that's going to be the quickest path to your gap. Quick wins are also good for the soul, but increasing your income is really the better of the two in terms of a long term strategy. Because what I don't want you to have to do forever is nitpick your own spending. And so what I would love for us all to do is take some time to just take a look at what's coming in, take a look at what's going out. Right. Like investigate those bank statements and just figure out what's going on. The first step is always knowing.
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B
Right.
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A
Investigate it online. Like as if your friend tells you that she's got a new boyfriend and so she wants you to do a little bit of Internet reconnaissance. And so you get on and you spend eight hours making a detailed PowerPoint point about everything about this person. Like, that's the type of energy that's.
- [15:24]
B
A good friend, Amanda.
- [15:27]
A
I would do it for any of my friends. And that's the type of energy I want us to take to our finances is this level of curiosity. And so then for somebody that does have a gap, the question is, okay, what is the first step? And so the first step is laying what I would call a financial foundation. And you might intuitively already know what laying a financial foundation would require. Having some savings in case of an emergency. Right. You know, having some cash in the bank just allows you to sleep better that night. Yeah. And so that is an essential part of any financial foundation. It's also going to make you a better investor.
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B
Right.
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A
We want you to be investing and taking investing risk from stable territory. And that's what cash in the bank allows you to do. So that's the first step.
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B
Can you, as you address this, talk a little bit about how our gaps might evolve over time as we enter different life stages and particularly as we get closer to retirement or are going through another shift in life, a divorce or death of a spouse.
- [16:45]
A
Sure. So I've worked with thousands of students, and what I notice anecdotally is that in the beginning stages of a career, so for example, in your 20s, really, most of that gap is being applied to saving up emergency funds, paying down debt. Right. Credit card debt. And then of course, you're also paying other forms of debt. I would not necessarily count paying off your student loans as a use of your gap. That's a bill. But that is where a lot of the money is going. A lot of the money that is coming in is going out to accommodate payments on student loans as you shift later in life. And maybe you've paid off your student loans, maybe you're on more stable ground. What you start to see is a shift towards other goals such as saving more for retirement. So using that gap to save more for retirement. I have a lot of students who are in their 40s, 50s and 60s and many of them are just getting started investing and they are looking at retirement and they are saying, oh my goodness, this is something that I want to happen in the next 10, 20, 25 years. And so I gotta get to moving. And so even though it is idealistic that we start saving up for retirement when we are 21, it doesn't always happen that way. And oftentimes we just don't get started until we are able to get started. And that's okay. It's never too late to get started. But what I would like to do is through education and encouragement and like you said, confidence, pull some of that retirement investing sooner into the strategy earlier on in the strategy, only because the sooner you get started, the less work you have to do overall because investing can do some of the heavy lifting.
- [18:45]
B
We are going to take a very quick break. When we come back, we're going to talk about your no stress investing strategies, ones that you can start using today if you want. Back in a sec. Comfort and confidence. That's what I look for in my underwear. And that's what Skims delivers. The cotton jersey full brief has become my daily go to. No bunching, no riding up, no stretching out. It hugs in all the right ways. And not only that, they are soft, breathable and still look brand new after dozens of washes. And I'm obsessed with the fits everybody. Triangle Bralette. As someone who's always looking for that sweet spot between comfort and support, this one nailed it. It's flattering, flexible, and makes me feel put together even in my comfiest clothes. Skims has totally changed how I think about getting dressed. It's not just what's on the outside. It starts with the base. Shop my favorite bras and underwear@skims.com after you place your order. Be sure to let them know we sent you select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows. We are back with Amanda Holden. She is the author of how to Be a Rich Old Lady. Let's jump to part three of the book how to Invest. You talk an awful lot about the importance of asset allocation, especially as we close in on retirement. And you compare and I've never heard this one before, you compare asset allocation to dating. Give me the math on that.
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A
Sure. So when we're talking about asset allocation, what we're talking about is how you allocate your money to the big different investment types. So stocks, bonds, cash, real estate and so on. It's the most important decision that we are going to be making as investors. How much money of, of mine am I going to put in the stock market versus how much money am I keeping under the mattress in cash? That is going to drive the majority of your returns over time? So what does that mean? That means what we need to do is we need to understand what is a stock and what is a bond. Those are the core units of investing. And so it is essential that we understand what it is that we are investing in. This is going to be what drives our returns. And so stocks are shares of ownership in a company. A bond is a loan to either a corporation or a government where you are paid a stated rate of interest. And with just broad strokes, what we do is we talk about both stocks and bonds in terms of their risk and reward trade off. And so stocks generally are considered to be higher risk, but higher reward bonds are considered to be lower risk but lower reward. One is not necessarily better than the other, they're just different and they serve different purposes. And so that's where my dating analogy comes in. What I point out in the book is I do happen to date men. And so I make this comparison that some days I might want to go out with Steve, right? He is reliable, he's steady. He tucks his T shirt into his jeans. He's the human Honda Accord, right? He's to be there when I get home on a Sunday to watch the nine part Ken Burns baseball documentary. But it's not exactly exciting. Whereas I could also be dating a second guy and his name happens to be Guy. And Guy is the lead singer of an upand cominging band. This band could turn out to be the next Rolling Stones, but they could also be destined to playing the sad bar circuit for the rest of time. And so the highs are high, the lows are low. But I am am his muse and I am in love. But there's just more risk involved in dating Guy. And so my point is, here's the thing. You don't have to get married to either one of these guys. You can have a little bit of both. Because sometimes Steve is better and sometimes Guy is better. One is my Saturday boyfriend and one is my Sunday boyfriend. And that's the idea behind investment diversification. It's a Lot like playing the field with dating.
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B
I love it. My guy was, and I'm gonna leave his name out of this, a a guy with a motorcycle while I was in high school who actually never made it out of our hometown. So there you go, lesson learned. You recently posted a video on Instagram about the potential risks of AI stocks, and you made a strong case for how it could affect everyone. We've been talking about this a lot in my Women's only investment club, which is called Investing Fix. But it's especially an important lesson for those people who are retiring in the next 10 years. How do you recommend we think about this category right now? How do you recommend that people position themselves?
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A
Sure. So the AI bubble is looking a little bit bubbly right now. And so for anybody that does not keep their eye on the financial news, really what has happened is over the last couple of of this money has poured into these AI and tech stocks. And the effect that that has had is now these companies are so big, especially compared to other companies that we are investing in, often via our index funds. And remember, those index funds are meant to mirror the market. So a bigger company is going to take up a higher proportion of your fund. So Microsoft now makes up 7 or 8% of your strategy, whereas a smaller company like Chipot makes up like 0.15% of your strategy. And that is by design, that is what index funds are designed to do, is invest you passively exactly as the market is. But that has a lot of people looking at the composition of something like a US Stock market index fund, the most popular one being AN S&P 500 index fund, and saying, wait a minute here, 40% of this thing is now made up by seven tech companies, seven AI companies. Right. Is that as safe as we once thought it was? And I'm loving that we're having this conversation actually, because I come from the world of investment management where you never really would have recommended somebody only invest in one country ever. Even if it is the US which has had the most dominant stock market over history by a lot. But for diversification purposes, in order to build a safer strategy, generally you are at the very least incorporating international stocks. And so you're not loaded up all in U.S. stocks. And this isn't really about predicting a bubble or even some imminent collapse. It is well within the realm of possibility, but we can't know if or when that is going to happen. But it is great to just be having these conversations of like, maybe I should have been a little bit more diversified Anyway, right.
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B
And if it's been a while since you looked at your asset allocation and rebalanced, brought it back to where you started or where you intend it to be, it is beyond time. Right?
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A
Beyond time, beyond time.
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B
The markets have run up so far, so fast that if you haven't rebalanced, you are without a doubt overweighted in stocks. You developed a three fund portfolio. For people who want to do this in a simple way, essentially your argument is you can cover all your bases confidently and with low cost using three funds. A bond market index fund, an international stock market index fund, and a US Stock index fund, which I assume is that S&P 500 funds tell us what to look for when we're picking a bond index fund and an international stock index fund.
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A
Sure. And so those are the three major pieces, US Stocks, international stocks and bonds, that you will see that make up most investment strategies. And so even if you pop your head into your 401k, you are probably automatically invested across these three categories. And so the question is, well, first, what is the mix? What is the asset allocation? Again, that's going to be the first and most important decision. And so somebody that can take on a lot of risk, who has a lot of time to allow the stock market to work in their favor, so somebody earlier in their career can do more stocks as compared to bonds. But as you move throughout your career, the idea is that you might want more stability as you enter into a period where you need to pull from this money. And so that means more bonds and then also just building up cash holding that you can enter into retirement with. And so then the next question is, okay, how do I find the funds to fulfill each of those pieces of my investment pie? And so with the US stock market, I actually do prefer a total US stock market index fund over an S&P 500 index fund, just because I like to invest in a little bit of everything. Although these two funds are going to perform very similarly over time, with an international stock market index fund, really the big decision you're going to be making is whether or not to include emerging markets. So we have these two classifications when we're investing internationally. Developed and emerging and so developed is going to be your uk, Germany, Canada, Australia, Japan. Most folks, I think it makes sense just to start with developed. That's going to be a little bit less volatile than adding in what we classify as emerging markets, which is Brazil, India, China, Mexico, and so on. Which, by the way, when you do add in emerging markets, those indices are dominated by China. And so really it's a decision of like, okay, is that something that I want to add to the strategy? Which again is not right or wrong. It's a matter of like, is that the type of risk you want to add to your strategy? And so generally you're going to be looking for a developed international stock market index fund. That's a mouthful, but you might not have a lot of options if you're especially investing in your 401k or workplace retirement plan. And so you're just going to want to crack into that international index fund and see what's inside. Just because at the very least, we want you to know with a bond market index fund, generally a general or broad fund is going to include both government bonds and corporate bonds. It will also probably include some asset backed bonds. This is a great starting place. Something that includes corporate bonds is generally going to return slightly more over time than a fund that for example, only holds treasury bonds, US Federal government Treasury bonds. And so if you want to earn a little bit more, but you'll experience a little bit more volatility, do something broad that includes corporate bonds. If what you're looking for is a little bit more stability, but you're willing to give up a little bit of returns on the upside, you can do something that's like a Treasury bond fund.
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B
We only have a few minutes left, but I do want to home in on retirement just a little bit later. In the book, you outline a detailed, approachable way to calculate how much we need to retire. You break it down and you say, calculate your annual spending, add 20% to cover taxes and multiply that number by 25. That's your big number. Then use an online calculator to figure out what you have to invest monthly to get you there. Can you walk through that just a bit? And if you're five or ten years away from retirement but you find that your savings are falling short, what do you do?
- [31:05]
A
Yes, absolutely. So the starting place is trying to wrap our heads around how much money we're going to spend each year in retirement, which is a really difficult thing to do, especially if you are far away from retirement. And so don't worry too much, just try to get a general sense. So for example, like, is the plan to own your home? Will your mortgage be paid off? Think through these types of questions about what your expenses will look like in retirement. It is okay to do this in today's dollars. You do not need to try to think in like future wacko inflated dollars. The calculation that we will do later accommodates for inflation. And so then what you do once you have that number is I do have you round up a little bit, especially if you are investing in a 401k where you will have to pay taxes later, round up a little bit more if you live in a high tax state like New York or California. And then you multiply that annual SPE figure by 25. And the reason we do this is because of a rule called the 4% rule. The 4% rule says that when you are investing and earning money over time, let's say 6, 7, 8% over time, what you can do is you can take about 4% off the big pot of money, that big number that we were describing, without running the risk of eating too much into the principal, into that big pot of money, eroding your savings over time. And so the 25, the multiply by 25 is just the reverse, the reverse calculation of taking 4%. And so you can either take 4% of the big number and get your annual spending, or you can take your annual spending number and multiply by 25 and then get the big number. And so once you have that big number, that's your target. And then we can go and mess around in a compound return calculator to see how much money we need to be investing every month to hit that target. What I say in my book is that the numbers can be a little bit confronting because saving enough money to live for 20 or 30 or 40 years, that's an incredible amount of money that we have to save and invest. And most people are not doing enough. Some people are, but most people are not doing it enough, not because they're not trying, but because it's really a hard job, right? Even think about like if you're listening to this, like could you walk away from work without a paycheck for one year right now? Most people couldn't. And retirement is simply walking away from work without a paycheck. And so part of this exercise is a reminder that in this country, and especially with the erosion of the social safety net, that we get to retire when we have enough money to retire. We get to walk away from work when we have enough money to walk away from work. And that includes money in our 401ks, money in the bank. And so it's a big job to be able to walk away and not have an income for 20 years. And so that is also part of the reason, it's also a rallying cry to just try to get started as soon as you can and bake it into every year that you're able to.
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B
So that you can take care of that rich old lady inside of you. We will leave it there. Amanda Holden, you're coming back to do a mailbag with us. Thank you in advance for that and thanks for a great conversation. Happy New Year.
- [34:40]
A
Happy New Year.
- [34:41]
B
If you love today's episode, please take a moment to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcast. Your feedback means the world to me. Looking to grow your investment investing skills and make smarter decisions with your money in 2026? Join HerMoney's investing fix, the twice monthly women's only investment club where expert stock pickers pitch ideas and you help build the portfolio. Since launching four years ago, our member driven picks have outperformed the S and P. Thanks to smart collaborative choices, we've got a strong track record and a community that's learning and winning together. Tap the link in the show notes and check out Investing Fix today. Her money is produced by Haley Pascalides and our music is provided by Video Helper. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk soon.