← HerMoney with Jean Chatzky
HerMoney with Jean Chatzky
Ep 511: From Nest Egg to Paycheck: Rethinking Retirement Planning
00:35:25
How to make sure your money goes the distance.
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- [00:01]
A
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B
The retirement income approach that makes sense for us is really the one that fits with us psychologically. So some people might have a strong appetite for safety. If they arrive at some system, they just kind of want to lock it down, which is what you would get if you purchased an annuity. You'd get the same stream of cash flows. Other people would say, no, wait, I don't want to give away a pool of my money. I want to continue to control it. So the experts even vary so significantly in their approaches to retirement income distribution. I think that's one of the most surprising aspects of the book.
- [01:38]
A
Hey everyone, thank you so much for joining me today on HerMoney. I'm Jean Chatky and today we are talking about one of the biggest and most intimidating shifts in retirement planning. Moving from saving a pile of money to turning that into an income stream that actually lasts. Because it is one thing to hit a savings number. It's a big thing. But it's just one thing. But it is another entirely to figure out how to spend it confidently and without the constant fear of running out of money. Today is the first in a special ongoing retirement focus series brought to you by Limra. We will be preparing bringing you these conversations every month because we know that many of you are thinking seriously about retirement and want practical, jargon free guidance to help you prepare for the future. And to kick things off, we're joined by someone who has spent her career helping people think more clearly about retirement and what comes next. Christine Benz is no stranger to her money. She is the Director of Personal Finance and Retirement Planning at Morningstar and a senior columnist for Morningstar.com, comma, the co host of the podcast the Long View, a trusted voice across the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, cnbc, pbs, one of the most influential women in finance and wealth management, and the author of a book called how to retire 20 lessons for a Happy, Successful and Wealthy Retirement. She is also, I do not believe I'm overstating things, one of your most popular guests. When Christine was on the show most recently, our listens were just off the chart. And so she is back today to help us unpack what it really means to build a retirement plan that works and ensures your money lasts as long as you do. Christine, welcome to the show.
- [03:42]
B
Dean, it's so lovely to see you. It's always an honor to be with you. Thanks for having me on.
- [03:47]
A
Thank you for being here. So your latest book, how to Retire, a bestseller by the way, is one in which you asked a lot of retirement thought leaders to go deep on a single lesson that they believe contributes to success in retirement. Of all the things that you heard, what surprised you most about what people say really, really matters at this stage of life?
- [04:14]
B
Well, Jean, you're in the book, so thank you for being in it. You've contributed to its success. When I reflect on the most surprising aspect of the book, it's just that there's no one clear answer about how to do any of this. People are all over the place in terms of what your portfolio should look like as retirement approaches. If you need to extract some money from your portfolio, which is the whole point of the portfolio, there's a lot of divergence among experts about how to do that. People would say, oh, just buy an annuity with your money. That will kick out income for the rest of your life. Other people would say, forget annuities, use your own portfolio to fund your cash flows. Real life retirees tend to favor portfolios that consist of dividend paying stocks and other income producing assets. So there's a lot of divergence of opinion and I wanted to show that in the book because honestly, Gene, I don't think there is one single way to do this. I think there are a number of routes that people can take. I have my favorite approach, which is kind of a bucket approach to extracting cash flows. But other people have different thoughts. I'm sure you have different thoughts as well. So that's a key point I would make. And the retirement income approach that makes sense for us is really the one that fits with us psychologically. So some people might have a strong appetite for safety if they arrive at Some system, they just kind of want to lock it down, which is what you would get if you purchased an annuity. You'd get the same stream of cash flows. If it's a very basic income producing annuity, Other people would say, no, wait, I don't want to give away a pool of my money. I want to continue to control it. So the experts even vary so significantly in their approaches to retirement income distribution. I think that's one of the most surprising aspects of the book.
- [06:14]
A
It is. And what's also surprising is that all of these methods, all of these methodologies can work for different people. I like your take that you have to find the one that lines up with you psychologically. I mean, to quote Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman, I'm a safety girl, right? So I know for me an annuity is going to make sense, but not for everything. I still want market returns and I'm going to figure out some way to get those as well. Was there an interview or a conversation that you had for the book that made you rethink your own assumptions about your retirement planning?
- [06:55]
B
Well, the book includes a lot of discussion of the non financial aspects of retirement. And that's probably something that I personally have underrated in the years leading up. And I'm not retired but you know, kind of thinking about it on the horizon at some point in the future. And so I had underrated all of the non financial aspects of retirement and what it will feel like for me when I step away from the job that I love, from the people I work with, who I also love most of them, and all of those aspects of my work that don't have anything to do with money. I had underrated that. So that probably hearing that reinforced that you should get ahead of this. You shouldn't just show up in retirement without a plan for really what you're going to do with your days, what's going to give you purpose, how you'll stay connected with other people. I hadn't thought enough about that. And the book really lit a fire under me to make sure that I'm not going to retire without a plan for those things because those are the things that really contribute to whether someone's satisfied in retirement or not. Money's important for sure. It's kind of the baseline. But from there, unless you give thought to what you're going to do with your time and what's going to give you purpose, I don't think money is the be all end all.
- [08:18]
A
Yeah, I think that's so important. I'm watching my husband deal with this now. He's been retired for a while, but been retired and sort of working part time in the career loosely tangential to what he did. And a lot of that has sort of gone away. And he's, his approach, which I think is so interesting is that he's sort of filling his weeks with these 10 hour blocks. So he took a course at the local university that was kind of a 10 hour block for each week he's spending time with his grandson. That's a 10 hour block. It's, you know, it's, it's interesting how, how people approach it. And you're right that it's, it is a shift, another shift. And you, you talked about this, you wrote about this in the book, is that when you shift from earning money from accumulating money to starting to spend money, it's a really daunting feeling. How do you suggest that people sort of wrap their brains around the fear that may accompany that and the fear of living too long or spending too much?
- [09:27]
B
Yeah, it's a huge psychological hurdle. And only in the past few years, as I've been researching this and talking to actual retirees have I become aware of what an issue this is. And it makes sense that if we have been successful as savers and we've seen our investments grow, we all want to kind of anchor on that high water mark. I personally will feel badly, I think, when my portfolio starts to fall below what it is today. But it probably will if I'm spending reasonably over my retirement time horizon. So it's a big psychological shift. And there are some tips in the book about how to get yourself over it. One I like came from Jamie Hopkins, which is just to start practicing with this spending that maybe you are buying cars with cash, whereas in the past you would finance them. And of course interest rates aren't that great anymore anyway, so it's maybe a good time to think about that. But if you've got this portfolio and you have this non negotiable big ticket item that you have to pay for, think about writing that big check. And of course you want to be thoughtful about where you're going for that money and the tax implications of writing that check if it's coming out of your retirement account and you're not yet of the age where you can avoid the penalty on the distribution. But the key point is just to get yourself a little bit warmed up. So it's not like on day one is your first withdrawal ever and then there's been Some research done from people like Michael Finka, who I know you've interviewed in the past. Jean and David Blanchett, my former colleague at Morningstar. They've done some work on how income is not income for retirees, that retirees tend to feel a little bit more comfy spending certain types of income than they do others. So I believe Social Security income is in the more comfortable level of income. People know that they'll keep getting that check month after month, so they tend to give themselves a little bit more permission to spend. The research from Blanchett and Finke pointed to the point of annuities, that if you have some basic income annuity, you're just happier spending that money that comes to you as a check from the annuity every month, or however, whatever the cadence is. RMDs seem to be another category. If someone is taking those required minimum distributions from their tax deferred accounts, which you have to do once you pass age 73, people tend to give themselves a little bit more permission to spend that money as well. And anecdotally I've observed that dividends seem to be a different ballgame as well, that retirees are very comfortable spending their dividends. And it makes sense to me when I stop to think about it. I've always been a big evangelist for the total return approach. And who cares if you have to periodically sell something if it takes some risk out of your portfolio? But I get the intuition. I get why dividends tend to be appealing. Because someone's mailing you a check, or if you're not reinvesting the funds back into your account. That just feels better than telling your account provider that you want to sell a chunk of something. I don't know why it feels better, but it does feel better. And it seems to work for a lot of retirees.
- [12:45]
A
Yeah, I think it feels better because it feels kind of like it doesn't feel like free money, at least not to me. But it does. Does feel a little more paychecky. Right. It's expected. You know when it's going to come, you know how much it's going to be. It's sort of. It's cyclical. And even though dividends are not guaranteed, depending on the companies that you own, it's. It's a stream of income that can feel kind of like a stream of guaranteed income from an annuity. You and I talked for your book about women. I was so honored that you asked me to do that. And the fact that for women, some of these things weigh heavier than they do for their male partners or for men in general? As you've sat with that information and as you sort of parsed it, how do you think about women as being different than men these days and the fact that we have this sort of higher level of anxiety around money and running out? We are going to take a very quick break. Want to invest smarter and build real confidence with your Money? Check out HerMoney's investing fix, our twice monthly women only investing club where expert stock pickers pitch for stocks and we break them down across four key questions. What does the company do? What do we like about it? What don't we like? And is it a buy at today's price? Then you help decide what to add to our model portfolio. And here's the exciting part. Our model portfolio has outperformed the market more often than not since launching four years ago. Thanks to smart collective decisions from our members. Our community is curious, engaged and learning. Together you'll gain real insight and you might even pitch the next winning idea. Ready to level up in 2026? Click the the link in the show notes and join me on Investing Fix today. Comfort and confidence. That's what I look for in my underwear. And that's what Skims delivers. The cotton jersey full brief has become my daily go to. No bunching, no riding up, no stretching out. It hugs in all the right ways. And not only that, they are soft, breathable and still look brand new after dozens of washes. And I'm obsessed with the fits everybody Triangle Bralette as someone who's always looking for that sweet spot between comfort and support, this one nailed it. It's flattering, flexible, and makes me feel put together even in my comfiest clothes. Skims has totally changed how I think about getting dressed. It's not just what's on the outside. It starts with the base. Shop my favorite bras and underwear@skims.com after you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows. And if you're looking for the Perf Valentine's and if you're looking for the perfect gift for your Valentine or yourself, the Skims Valentine's shop is now open.
- [15:55]
B
Well, as you note in the book, Jean, there's a longevity edge for us as a group that we do tend to outlive our partners by at least a couple of years on average. So there's that. And then the other big thing, which is another topic we discuss in Depth in the book is the role of caregiving in terms of women's earnings trajectories. Women tend to peak early than men in terms of their peak earnings. And women have obligations that either cause them to curtail their work or knock them out of the workforce altogether. So caring for children, of course, is a big one. But then when we look at the data, women disproportionately shoulder the burden of caring for their adult parents as well. So that cuts into your lifetime earnings capabilities. If you are stepping back from work, I should say stepping back from paid work or cutting back paid work altogether, that will limit the amount that you're able to save. So you need to be thoughtful about. I always urge younger women, especially high earning young women, to really hit it with the savings early, to take advantage of the compounding and also just to give yourself a little bit more flexibility to potentially pull back at various points in time. The point I love in the realm of caring for adult parents is the one that you made, Jean, in the book about what women should do if they're in this situation where, gosh, my parents are requiring a lot more of my time and my care. Your point was the greater good here, if you can possibly make it work. And of course that's a fraught time when you're dealing with parents with health issues and potentially cognitive decline. But your point was if you can make it work to get some other caregiving arrangement for your parents. And your point I thought was very stark, which is, even if it takes every cent that you make, the greater good is staying in the workforce if you possibly can. Because if you take say a two or three year break when you are 58 or in your early 60s, which is often when we're trust into these caregiving roles, it's super hard to get back in realistically. And so the retirement that you had thought might start when you were 65 or 67 or 70 starts at 61 or 58. That just puts much more pressure on any amount that you've been able to save. It necessitates longer withdrawals over that longer life expectancy. It may force your hand with respect to decisions like when to claim Social Security. If you have no other income coming in the door, claiming Social Security might be your only option. So I loved that point and I would like women to get the message about thinking about the role that caregiving may play in their lives and making sure that their plan isn't thoroughly disrupted in case that caregiving need does arise.
- [18:57]
A
Yeah, yeah, I feel that Even more today. You know, we're at this inflection point with her money where we're hearing it feels to me from more and more of our listeners and our readers who are out of work in their 50s and early 60s, not all from reasons of caregiving, but because there have been layoffs and because companies have decided to go in different directions for a variety of reasons. But the struggle to get back in at this age is it's taking them so much longer than it has taken at any other age. Even very, very high ranking corporate women who've been continuously employed throughout their lifetime. So I just, I would so much double down on that advice. Let me switch gears here because we have some research from Limra that shows that just at the third of consumers age 45 to 75 have a detailed retirement plan. When you talk with experts or even with newer retirees, what do you see as the biggest blind spot that people go into retirement with? Is it this idea that they actually know what it will cost?
- [20:26]
B
Well, definitely the cost of retirement and what's a reasonable amount to take out every year is an important dimension of this. I think it was fidelity. A few years ago did some surveys of people on the street about what they thought was a safe withdrawal percentage. And I think that convergence may have been like double digits, like 10%, 12%, something like that. A lot of people thought that you could reasonably take that much per year. Well, you really can't. You need to be sort of in the low to mid single digits range when you start out. So I think there's a lot of confusion about that. And that's one area where some sort of planning advice, even if you're not all in with a planner or advisor, just get a second set of eyes on your plan that you're thinking about. Don't wait until the 11th hour when you think you're going to retire in a couple of months. Get ahead of it when there's still time to make some adjustments, to make some adjustments to your budget, to make some adjustments to your assumptions about how much you can withdraw from the portfolio. But I think there's a lot of confusion about safe withdrawal rates. And some people, you know, at the other extreme are too conservative. I talk to a lot of older adults who say, oh yeah, you know, sometimes it's someone clearly in his or her 80s who might say, I'm just taking 3% a year. I don't second guess it, I don't worry about it. And I kind of think to myself, well, I hope that's enough. And I also hope that you're not depriving yourself of the opportunity to maybe give a little of it away during your lifetime. If you're living on such a frugal amount, there's probably a little bit of wiggle room in your budget to do some lifetime giving.
- [22:11]
A
Yeah, I've been thinking about that as well. I feel like, you know, my kids who are in their 30s and getting to the point where they might want to buy houses could certainly use more of my money now than when I'm 90, hopefully, and they're 60 and have crossed those milestones and maybe even put their own kids through college at that point. These are the sort of things that I think about all the time. You and I had a conversation in preparation for this conversation. We do that, by the way, where you said you and your husband were doing some budgeting that you typically have not done in. In preparation for retirement. And I thought it was very interesting. Can you talk about how your approach has changed?
- [23:00]
B
Yes. So initially we tried this budgeting that everyone says you should do where you. I remember, you know, we're married, we're in our 20s, everyone said you should write down every expense or log it in a spreadsheet or something like that. And we never were able to stick with it. And, you know, sometimes even little money skirmishes would arise because it's like, oh, you spent more in the clothes category than you said you were going to spend. So we arrived early on at this. I didn't know there was a name for it at the time, but they call it reverse budgeting. And I think it's such a helpful concept of just set your savings target, put it all on autopilot. So certainly with your 401k, where that's the basic framework anyway, but also with your taxable accounts, if you contributing to IRAs, just make those monthly or per paycheck contributions, and then what's left in the pool at the end of a month, that's years to spend or during the month. And so that's the basic framework that we've used as savers, as accumulators as we start to look forward to retirement. And actually this came from our financial planner. She was like, I think you should just budget. So with it, we know how things might change, what you're spending on today. She said, I don't really care, I think you're fine. But I think we should just have our arms around what the major categories are. So that's what we've been doing in the early days of 2026. We're sticking with it. My husband's been the main person logging them in. But the idea is that we're categorizing the spending and that we'll have a better sense of mainly how much of this is fixed. And we. That's easy, that we know what our taxes are and what our utilities and so forth. But how much of it is discretionary? And what do those discretionary categories look like? And also how lumpy are those discretionary expenses? Are they things that are likely to recur, like going out to dinner or taking trips, or are they kind of one time things that we might be doing? So that's the process. But I do think that reverse budgeting is a phenomenal tool for people who are in the savings mode. But as you get closer to retirement, it's helpful to have a little bit clearer picture of where and how you're spending your money.
- [25:15]
A
Have you found any surprises? I mean, I've been thinking because I think we're sort of at the same phase of looking at life this way. And I've always been a reverse budgeter. And I'm thinking, oh boy, I better do this. But I really don't want my husband to get his eyes on my shoe budget. For example. Like, I just. He doesn't, he, he doesn't buy clothes. We had a huge tussle. He's gonna kill me. But we had a huge tussle because we went to Costco to get paper towels and toilet paper and he wanted to buy pants. And I didn't love the look of the particular pants that he wanted to buy. Wanted him, you know, whatever.
- [25:52]
B
He tried them on either.
- [25:53]
A
No. And he, but he thought that this was inappropriate. And I know for. I know it is in many, many cases an appropriate place to buy clothing. Not for me. Right. And we have very different attitudes towards shopping for these things. And so I'm willing to go through the exercise, but I don't particularly want to share it.
- [26:13]
B
Yeah, I totally get it because that is the beauty of reverse budgeting. There's a lot of invisible, ish spending that's going on. I do try to review our credit card bill every month just to make sure that there's nothing completely untoward on it. But. But I don't think either of us have spent much time scrutinizing the other spending, and it does tend to contribute to marital harmony. I would say if you're not really too much in each other's business, you each have your priorities with respect to spending. But this thing that we're doing now, yeah, it is a different ballgame. I have just been leaving my receipts on his desk without comment. So we'll see.
- [26:48]
A
Oh, that got me into so much trouble. When I was pregnant and married to my first husband, we used to categorize everything, like down to the penny with Quicken. Or at least he did. And I would leave all of my receipts on his dresser. And when he got really, really busy at work, he would have his assistant input the receipts. And I was pregnant and getting an egg McMuffin on the daily as I drove into Manhattan. And his assistant walked into his office and said, this is why you can't lose any weight. You eat at McDonald'.
- [27:25]
B
And he was like, she said that to him.
- [27:26]
A
She said it to him because she, she didn't think I was doing it, but it was all me. Back to annuities, just for a second, because I want to understand how you think about them. We know they're becoming increasingly popular for retirement income planning. Our research, the Limra research, shows that 50% of financial advisors are putting more client investments into them than before. For people who think about their portfolio as categories, stocks, bonds, cash. How do you think about the annuity portion?
- [28:00]
B
Well, it depends on the annuity gene. And the troubling part with annuities is just that the term is so encompassing. It encompassed so many different product types, some of which do encompass stock exposure, some of which are just pure income producing vehicles akin to, maybe not quite the same as, but kind of akin to your Social Security income. So it's a broad gamut. And that is the tricky part for people who are trying to figure out what slot to put the annuity within. It's kind of a hybrid, I would say. You typically are engaging in some type of a contract. So it's a little different from an investment portfolio that you manage and hold in that once you have signed that contract, the account is under the management of the insurance company. So it's really not. There's not a great existing analog in your toolkit as you've been saving for retirement. There's just no perfect sort of asset class to put it in it.
- [29:10]
A
Okay. One of the ways we can think that people are going to gain exposure to these is through their retirement plans. Vanguard recently made some headlines for its plan to offer a new 401k target date fund sometime later this year, it looks like, which will allow workers to get into annuities through their retirement plans. BlackRock has been doing something similar. What do you See, in the future of retirement plans and income planning overall.
- [29:45]
B
One interesting thing when you look at the data is that when people retire, they're much more inclined to stay inside the plan during retirement than they were even 10 years ago. The data are pretty stark that more people are staying in plan. They're not necessarily rolling over to an ira. And of course, there are pros and cons of both approaches. But one advantage to staying in plan is the idea that if you have a 401k provider, it's someone who is entrusted with being a fiduciary with putting some guardrails around what you can invest in. If it has a target date fund with an annuity option, it has probably been pretty well vetted. And of course that's a big generalization. But you know, certainly with the partners that BlackRock and Vanguard have, they've spent a lot of time thinking about what insurers they're partnering with. So I like that the consumer has those extra protections that you get with a 401k plan by staying in the plan. Which is not to say that if you roll out of the plan and you're working with a financial advisor, he or she may be a fiduciary too, and may be putting just as much thought and care into what goes into your IRA as was the case with the company retirement plan. But I do like the trend overall for consumers because people are very confused about how to decumulate how to spend from their portfolios. So I like the idea of them being in a little bit more of a closed environment, which is what they have with a 401k versus venturing out to an IRA.
- [31:29]
A
And what has driven the shift and is there any downside to staying?
- [31:33]
B
My guess is that inertia is driving the shift. We just have more and more people who are retiring with 401s and inertia is an incredibly powerful force behind a lot of things. And so my guess is that, oh, I'm not sure what to do with these funds. It seems like it's done reasonably well in the 401k, so I might as well just stick around. It's not necessarily perfect in every case to stick with the 401. It might not have all of the bells and whistles. It may not even have investment options that are that great. So you need to do your homework before you just sort of follow that path of least resistance.
- [32:16]
A
Last question. In what has been a wide ranging conversation for pre retirees who are listening, who are thinking, oh my God, this is so much. I'm feeling overwhelmed. What are the one or two simple steps you would have them take first to bring that anxiety level back down to normal?
- [32:36]
B
It's a great question. I would say first and foremost, get your arms around all of your income sources or potential income sources. So do a run on Social Security to see what your Social Security payouts will look like at various claiming dates. Look at all of your aggregated investment accounts and do a little bit of quick and dirty calculation using say the 4% guideline. Look at what that would look like in terms of your payout from the portfolio and see whether those two sources combined the guaranteed sources of income and your portfolio income, get you close to what your budget is. And if not, if there's a big gap, you have some opportunities. You still have a few years. So you can either look at that budget or plan to continue working longer than you thought, which is not the answer anyone wants to hear. But you still have a few tools in the toolkit at that life stage. So get your arms around those major building blocks. And then finally get a little piece of advice if you could get some direct feedback on your personal plan, because I think that can provide you with a lot of comfort and peace of mind. I think sometimes people think, oh, I'm afraid to show the advisor what I have because I'm in such bad shape, I'll never get there. Advisors have seen at least all and they are really willing to be constructive about how to make a save. If you don't want to work forever, that is not going to be their answer to you. They will try to help you figure out how to make up for the shortfall. So get over that fear that you'll be judged. I don't think you will be.
- [34:22]
A
Christine Benz, the book once again is how to Retire. It's excellent. Thank you so much for joining us today. If we want people to learn more about you and your work, where do you want them to go?
- [34:34]
B
So the main place is morningstar.com, morningstar is my employer and I'm a regular on that website doing articles and videos. That's probably the main outlet for my work. And then my podcast, as you so nicely said, Jean, is called the Lawn View, which is an interview format a lot like this one. And you've been our guest before.
- [34:52]
A
I have always, always appreciated pleasure. And if you're looking for more resources to help plan for retirement, you can visit Limra's website as well@limra.com when you get there, click on the Consumers tab for tips, tools, research and more, all aimed at helping you step confidently into your next chapter. Christine, thank you so much.
- [35:13]
B
Jean, thank you so much.
- [35:15]
A
Always a pleasure. If you love today's episode, please take a moment to leave us a five five star review on Apple Podcast. Your feedback means the world to me. Looking to grow your investing skills and make smarter decisions with your money in 2026? Join HerMoney's investing fix, the twice monthly women's only investment club where expert stock pickers pitch ideas and you help build the portfolio. Since launching four years ago, our member driven picks have outperformed the S P. Thanks to smart collaborative choices, we've got a strong track record and a community that's learning and winning together. Tap the link in the show notes and check out Investing Fix today. Her money is produced by Hayley Pascalides and our music is provided by Video Helper. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk soon.
- [36:13]
B
How do the most successful women do it? We ask them on how she does it with Karen Feinerman. You'll get insights from leaders like today's Jenna Bush Hager. There's a lot I say no to, and I think it's a really important word for women to use. Rachel weber of Paris Hilton's 1111 media I'm going to be a much better leader. I'm going to bring more creativity if I have other things filling my life and more. That's how she does it with me. Karen Feinerman, Wherever you get your podcasts.