B (3:18)

Thanks for having me.

C (3:19)

Excited to be here, excited to have this conversation, honestly, it's for myself and all my friends. So let's just start with the title of your book. Why do I keep doing this? Because I think so many of us have asked ourselves that question about a lot of things in our lives, but a lot of times it comes to how we handle our money. What inspired you to write this book? Why'd you write it? Now?

B (3:48)

It's funny how the book came about it, actually. So some background on me is that I'm an eating disorder specialist. That's where my training was. And that's what I saw primarily in my private practice. And I have always wanted to write a book about eating disorders. This is not that, obviously. However, I called my literary agent, was like, I think I want to write a book about eating disorders. And she was like, okay, well, tell me about your idea. And as I got to talking to her about it, I, you know, it was like, well, it's not about the food. It's about like this illusion of control and wanting to numb out. And we do all these things to try to keep control of our life and feel like things are okay. Long story short, she was like, yeah, yeah, I do that. Oh my God, I do that. Well, I don't do it with food, but I do this. And as we got to chitty chatting, she's like, I think that's the book. I don't. Maybe it's not about eating disorders. You can talk about that in there. I think it's about control. What do you think? And I'm like, I'm gonna have to think about it. I don't really know. And so I got to ruminating later in journaling and I thought, yeah. And actually the reason that I felt like it was so pertinent now is kind of twofold. Number one, it's very applicable to my life. The book itself is very personal. It's probably my most personal book because I've been working on this in my own therapy for the past few years. And so I thought, yeah, I guess if I'm struggling with it and then the other part is I can't be alone. I hear from my audience all the time. They do things to try to control outcome, control people's responses, control how we're perceived, all of that stuff. And so I thought now's the time. I feel like a lot of us are looking for things to control in our lives, especially now.

C (5:25)

So yeah, we're going to take a very quick break. Let's be honest, retirement planning can feel overwhelming and a little confusing and sometimes like a second full time job. You told us you want more straight talk retirement plan guidance, so we're delivering starting now. On the third Wednesday of every month, we are teaming up with Limra to drop a special retirement focused episode of the podcast with practical tips, smart strategies and real world conversations. These episodes will give you the tools to help you feel more confident about what comes next. Thanks to Limra, these monthly episodes will touch on everything from how much you need to save to last a lifetime to actually turning those savings into a paycheck you can live on and enjoy. No jargon, no guesswork, just clear, practical guidance to help you feel prepared and empowered as you step into your next chapter. So mark your calendar, hit subscribe and tune in every third Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts.

B (6:37)

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A (6:56)

Epclis Lebricizumab LBKZ, a 250 milligram per 2 milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older, whole at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. EBGLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to Eglis, allergic reactions can occur that can be severe eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with ebglis. Before starting ebglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection.

B (7:30)

Ask your doctor about evgliss and visit evgliss.lily.com or call 1-800-lilyrx or 1-800-545-5979.

C (7:38)

I am back with Kati Morton. I mean, I think control has played such an interesting role in my life and my work for decades. I had an eating disorder in high school and college and came to understand that, as you say, it is not at all about the food. It is completely about wanting to control the uncontrollable. Decades later, I did a study on money and happiness and found, once again, it was not about how much money people had as long as they had enough to be comfortable. Once they got beyond that, it was about how much control we had over whatever money we have. And in this community, a lot of the women, I would say they're very in control of their budgets. We've got a lot of Type A listeners right here. One of them, I'm also.

B (8:35)

My name's Katie. I'm a recovering Type A. Yeah, exactly.

C (8:39)

And you write that so many of us learned early on that if we were perfect prepared, endlessly responsible, then nothing bad would happen. Story of my life. And that is how control starts. It's not as a choice, but it's as a survival skill. So where does it shift from being healthy to being harmful? And how can we tell the difference?

B (9:00)

Great question. And you are correct that it's more safety and security. Right? A lot of times we want to look at. It's interesting how we talk about control, too, because if I said, oh, don't worry, Jean, I've got it all under control, you'd be like, great, she's going to take care of that, no problem. But if I came to you and was like, oh, my boyfriend, he's a little controlling, you'd be like, oh, that's not good. Yet. It's the same thing. Right? It's just applied differently. And so to your question about, like, what's healthy and what's not healthy, I think there's a kind of. I guess the best way to describe it is almost like a confusion between, like, motivation and persistence and control. And that when we are motivated and when we want to be consistent with something, we're pushing for something that's us taking action. In therapy, we call it locus of control. It's essentially like, what can we control? And we want to have an internal locus of control because that's all we actually can control is ourselves. And so when we're doing things that are moving us towards our goals that are aligned with our values, I would say that's very healthy control and butting up against, like, motivation and consistency and those types of things. However, it becomes unhealthy when it's external. We're trying to control something we technically cannot. Another person, an outcome that we aren't in charge of. You know, there's so many things in our life like what our parents decide to do, what our siblings decide to do, what our children decide to do. Those are all things we don't have control over. And if we're talking about money, like the market, we don't have control over that. Right. It'll go up and down. So when we do things to try to control that, that's when it becomes unhealthy. When it's outside of our locus of control and we technically cannot even get that control. When it's an illusion, it's unhealthy.

C (10:51)

So many things about the world of money are not in our control. I think that's one of the reasons this is such a perplexing area for people, because we think that we can budget our way out of situations that we really have to invest our way through. And, you know, I can give you, as I've said many, many times on this show, you want me to pick the very best mileage credit card, I can do that. And I can be right. You want me to pick the best stock, Forget it. Right. I can make a good guess. I can diversify and protect in that way. But there is no right answer. Only in hindsight is there a right answer, and that makes it tough.

B (11:39)

And I think that's why money is such an interesting and emotionally charged topic for people, because there is little control. And maybe the control that we think we have is, like, always slipping through our fingers. I find it's interesting thinking about money and relationships in particular, because I learned a long time ago through. I wanna say it was the Gottmans that did this research, but they do a lot of couples research.

C (12:02)

Yeah.

B (12:03)

And it was. Money is always in the top five reasons for divorce because people have differing opinions on how it should be saved, spent and planned for, budgeted. And no one wants to talk about it. It's not sexy. It's not exciting. When we're getting ready to get married, we don't think, hey, maybe we should talk about our expectations for finances. It just doesn't. Not everybody does that.

C (12:26)

Yeah. Well, another point at which I think internal money conversations start to shift are these life changes. And for women who are approaching retirement or ready to take a step back from work to raise kids, for different reasons. After decades of being responsible, after decades of being earners, we find ourselves in a situation where the money's just not coming in in the same way. How does that need for control start to show up when our life changes,

B (13:04)

when any change is happening, I find the need for control feels stronger because essentially what we're talking about as one part of our life becomes very clearly out of our control. It can feel very chaotic, it can feel scary. I mean, think of scarcity and thinking like, I'm not going to have enough or I used to earn. What if I attach my worth as a human to how much much money I can make and now I'm not making as much. What does that say about me? Right. Again, it's an outside of our locus of control thing that's happening and we're like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. We have no control over it. And so what do we do? We tend to, unless we're in therapy, working on ourselves, we're all trying to be better, right? We over control or try to compensate by doing something else. And that's where I see a lot of people will do. Like we could talk about eating disorder behavior. People will shop, which I know you think, but we're not don't have that much money coming in. Shopping is a weird numb out, a weird distraction. We can spend money as a, a means to make ourselves feel better. It's a good num out, right? We can start exercising more or less. We can do all sorts of different things as a means to try to take back some semblance of control because we can feel like it was pulled from our very tightly gripped hands.

C (14:21)

You mentioned shopping. One way I know that control shows up is through emotional spending. Especially now with TikTok and social media constantly serving us up these pictures of things that maybe we think we need, but actually we don't. It's very, very hard to not fall into this trap. Right. My producer Hayley wrote me a note that she's. She's getting served a lot of people planner and journal ads right now.

B (14:50)

Me too.

C (14:51)

Same time of year, right? Strangely, I am only getting served up ads for boots because that's what I've been shopping for. But I think both of us are having a hard time resisting. So how do we check in with our emotional state before we pull the trigger on buying something?

B (15:07)

I have a couple of tips that I always abide by. I mean always. That's not true. I don't always. The one click to buy is dangerous. And sometimes you think you need something and you get it and you realize you didn't, and then you're like, oh. However, most of the time, I try to wait 24 hours. And in general, I feel like a lot of therapy is just trying to create space for calm decisions to be made. And that applies to our spending and our shopping habits. Those impulse purchases, there's only two left. Get it now. Those things are created to make us feel like there's not enough. I need to get it now to stop us from thinking so that we just click to buy. And so if you. If you are aware, hey, I'm kind of acting impulsively, I can do this. I find it's good to know when you do it. I do it when it's a stressful week or stressful day and I finally sit down and I'm, like, relaxing. I'm like, I'm in a faux shop. I call it putting things in a cart and then X and out. But sometimes it catches me and I check out. So put 24 hours in between you putting it in your cart and you purchasing it. Just wait. And also, the second is, I always tell myself, I'm like, check in with how you feel. Why am I buying this? And what do I think it says about me? And this takes a little bit more time, but I find especially, I don't know if it's just nowadays because of social media or if it's just being a female or whatever. There's too many factors. But a lot of times we'll buy something because we think it makes us look more successful or we think it makes us look more important or cooler. I mean, it depends on your age and what you're going for. But I swear, maybe it's my age, but I always want to look more put together. I'm always like, could this make me look more put together? I think it's because inside I feel very not put together. But I check in with myself, like, am I thinking that this is going to give me an emotional response? Because here's the thing, is that purchasing items doesn't do that. The conversation you have with yourself does. And so if I catch myself being like, well, I think this is going to make me look successful. This is going to make me look put together. I'm like, let's wait, let's wait. Give that 24 hours and see.

C (17:12)

I like that. I've been trying to apply a rule of one in, one out. So I'm not allowing myself to add something to my closet unless I am cycling something out at the same time, which makes it just. It's just a filtering mechanism, and it forces you to go back and say, oh, yeah, I already have pants like that. I don't need these. What's the difference between emotional spending and compulsive spending? And how do you know if you're starting to get close to the line?

B (17:43)

I think. I mean, it's a tough tangled web to tease out. But emotion spending is kind of what I was just talking about, like, how it makes you feel. And we do it as a reaction to how we feel. Okay. So it'd be like, I think this is gonna make me feel happy. It's gonna make me feel put together, make me feel successful, et cetera. Or I feel so stressed I'm doing this. Right. So it's kind of a reaction to an emotion or in anticipation of creating an emotional experience. That's emotional spending when it's compulsive. The interesting thing about it is it's almost done. What I would call it's like almost autopilot. And it's done usually as a build of anxiety. And I know you might say, katie, that's an emotion. Anxiety is not an emotion. It's actually a mental illness. And anxiety is more about this. Like, I have to have it. I have to have it. I have to have. I feel like if I don't get this, something's going to happen, or if I don't get it, it's going to be. They're going to be out of it. I'm going to be so dreadful. It's like we think of compulsions when we think of, like, obsessive compulsive disorder, and you do this compulsion to soothe. And so that's why it's like a tangled thing to tease out. When we're doing emotional spending, we're hoping to gain this emotional experience. We're doing it because we feel some kind of way compulsion happens when we're doing it to soothe.

C (19:02)

Only feels like binge eating.

B (19:05)

Yes, exactly. There's a little bit of overlap in the little Venn diagram that we're creating. However, the vast major of that compulsive is that after you purchase it, you're like, oh, we're emotional. We think, ooh, yay, you know, I got this experience, or this is gonna make me feel better, et cetera.

C (19:25)

Does it help with the emotional spending to keep track of the fact that even if you went down the rabbit hole and you bought the thing, that maybe it didn't satisfy the Emotional need. I guess this is what people may be working through in therapy. But can you do this on your own? Sort of track how it made you feel afterwards and can that help you sort of break the cycle?

B (19:50)

It definitely can. I always encourage people, I call it internal research. It's always helpful to do internal research and to keep track of things because that can maybe help us or prevent us from doing it another time. Right. However, the best thing, I mean, because if we've already purchased it, yes, we can return it, hopefully. And I would encourage people to do that, but. But we're gonna try to figure out a way to reflect sooner. And a huge tool that I always am encouraging people, whether it's eating disorder behaviors, shopping, gambling is doing an impulse log. And an impulse log is first you write down what the thing is you wanna do. So I wanna buy these pants, let's say. And then I want you to check in. What emotions are you experiencing right now? Okay, so maybe I'm feeling stressed or maybe I'm feeling, I don't know, upset, depressed, angry. You write that down. What am I thinking this item or this behavior will give me? So it'll make me feel better. Let's say I want to buy these pants. I'm like, it'll make me feel more put together and that will make me feel more responsible or more soothed or whatever. And so you write that down. And then we try to do something else for a bit. We distract to give us time again that beat. And then I always tell my patients, in general, when you're doing the impulse log, I want you to try to reach out to someone just to chitty chat to distract yourself. And if you've done all those things and at the end you're like, I still want to do that. I give you full permission, go right ahead. But we just want to slow that

C (21:12)

process down, slow the roll just a little bit. We're going to take a very quick break. When we come back, we're going to talk about the state of the world and what we can do, if anything, about that.

A (21:23)

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annual qualifying spend reaches $3,000 plus order eligible in stock paint and paint supplies by 2pm for free. Same day delivery by 8pm improving is easy at Lowe's. Exclude spray paint and mistints. More exclusions, terms and conditions apply. Subject to change details@lowes.com terms same day delivery valid and select zip codes subject to driver availability details@lowes.com samedaydelivery I am back with Kati Morton. The new book is called why Do I Keep Doing this? Great title, by the way. So, boy, the world is a tough place right now. You made a really honest video on YouTube called My Life Feels out of Control and you talked about how hard it is to deal with all the things that are swirling in the global landscape. One reaction that I've noticed that people are having, some young but some not so young, is to just say, fuck it. What am I supposed to do? I'm going to just try to live my life. And if that means spending my money to enjoy things now because I don't know what's coming down the road, I think that's not an irrational decision at this point in time. How are you helping your clients deal with the world?

B (23:28)

You are correct. The world is a very chaotic place. And I think it's because it feels so out of control. We are glomming onto anything that will make us feel better. And that's kind of that fuck it mentality. Like, what's it matter? I don't even know if we'll be here in a year or two years or like, what's going on? Or I don't know. You know, it feels again, it's out of our locus of control. So what are we gonna do? We're gonna try to overcompensate, do something else on the other side to make us feel some semblance of control. And I don't believe that. Just saying, like, yolo, if people even still say that these days. But like, I'm gonna buy this thing. Like, fuck it, I want it. And I don't even know what's gonna be happening. I agree with you. That's not really an irrational thought. But I would push back a little. Like, if you were in my office, I'd be like, I'm gonna challenge you on that. That's what a therapist would say. And say that is an impulsive emotional response. Because when we allow things that are out of our control to affect our Internal decision making. And I know people are gonna say, how do we do this? How do you not be affected? We can talk about that. But if we are letting an outside thing, we have zero control over what happens in our world as a whole. Or politics, like, unless you're actually sitting at the table, we can feel. We don't. I mean, I don't have any control then. I don't need to allow that to affect my ability to make decisions in my life, because what a scary place to live in where someone else has complete control over my emotional reaction. If we just think about it from that aspect, it'd be like allowing your neighbor to dictate your mood or your decisions.

C (25:05)

Right, right. Or the color of your kitchen.

B (25:08)

Exactly how much money you spend, all sorts of things. And so we have to realize that maybe that isn't irrational, but it definitely is impulsive and not healthy.

C (25:20)

So you said we can talk about how you do this. How do you do this?

B (25:25)

A ton of personal work I've done over the years, and it sounds intense, but I'm telling you, it's really not. It's a bunch of just tiny steps, really, to make ourselves not so reactive to things that are out of our control. We, number one, have to distance ourselves. And I think that's our biggest problem right now, is we're way too connected. And I don't mean connected like I can sit down with Eugene and we can have a cup of coffee or a glass of wine and we can chit chat. That's real connection. I'm talking cheap fast food connection through social media where we think we have the facts and we think we know what's going on and we're getting these sound bites and it's just like constant bombardment with information. That's too much connection. We're not made as humans, I don't believe. I think there'll be a ton of research where we'll talk about social media the same way we now talk about cigarettes, where we're like, I can't believe we were wrong that all the time. That's ridiculous. And so we have to disconnect a little bit because otherwise we can't see clearly. It's like we're constantly placed in a fog.

C (26:21)

There's a lot of hacks out these days for disconnecting. I've been thinking about bricking my phone. I thought that might help. Or just even trying to leave it in another room when I go to sleep. Do you have hacks that you use that you find especially helpful?

B (26:38)

I do Love the brick. I know a ton of people utilize that. For me, the things that work for me are being more intentional about the time I spend online. And I know that's like, a bigger message, but what I do is I allow myself. And this sounds silly, but when you're an adult, you're the adult, right? So you have to allow or not allow. So I allow myself, at the end of my day, 30 minutes to check. It's also my job, so I have to check 30 minutes. And I do it usually before dinner, so that's that first chunk of time. Then I allow myself 30 minutes later in the evening to my discretion when I want to use it. And I do not look at it in bed anymore. I used to get caught in that, and then I wouldn't be going to sleep because I'm up and have been scrolling on TikTok for an hour. How'd that happen? When the little lady comes up, are you scrolling instead of sleeping? And I'm like, how dare you? But she's right, and I'm glad she's there. And I also don't have my phone in my office, where I'm at now, when I journal, when I do, like, my own therapeutic work, because I find when I have a difficult emotion or something I'm trying to understand better, I want to reach for my phone and scroll, which is, I mean, telling, right? I'm numbing out. But those are just a couple of the things that I do. I also encourage people. My husband and I try to do this. We're not great at it, but we try to have what we call media free nights, and those are usually, like, date nights. And that could be going out. If it's easier to remove yourself from it. Go out. Just don't get on your phone. You can use GPS and then just put it in your purse or leave it in the car and. Or at home, we'll just turn them off. You know, nothing's gonna be an emergency. For one evening, you can let people know you're doing it. If you have children and you're concerned they're out of the house, you can leave your phone on, but just try to connect, try to have conversations, try to not watch tv, your phone, or any of the things in between.

C (28:26)

One of the things that you write about is our upbringing and how our upbringing really shapes our sense of how much space we're allowed to take up. I think this is such an interesting concept. It's how much space are we allowed to take up emotionally, physically, even financially? How does that show up in the way that women manage our money, the way that we negotiate or advocate for what we deserve or think about what we feel we deserve, whether we're talking about at work or in a relationship or just in our lives in general?

B (29:03)

That's a great question. And every woman's different. I don't want to make a huge swath and be like, all women do this, but a lot of it has to come back to childhood and the way that being a woman was modeled for you. So I'm going to speak personally, and this is the majority, but that doesn't mean there's not another swath of women doing the opposite. But I was raised very traditionally. I was raised that women are caretakers and we come second to husband, to children, to whatever. And in my life, that meant that I put other people first. That meant that I don't probably in jobs. And I know this about myself. Don't ask for as much as I'm worth. When they do research, they always say, women don't. You know, we don't ask for as much. We don't ask for as much time off, as much hourly or salary. We don't often speak up. Sometimes we'll have the best idea and we'll have set it in a side room and someone else will share it as theirs, and we won't say anything. And we will kind of diminish ourselves and also feeds into eating disorders. Is that we want to shrink ourselves. We believe we have to be smaller, that somehow being a smaller woman is more attractive. I find that is like a deeply held belief for a lot of us.

C (30:13)

Yes. To all of the above. So how do we get beyond these things?

B (30:17)

First is just realizing a lot of times we're on autopilot, like operating out of an old system. Do you know what I mean? It's almost like we're an old computer. Like we're plugged into an old tower from 2005, and we don't realize that we are. And so a huge part of even my own healing and the work I do with my patients is that, like, you have to recognize where it's coming from. I need to at least understand. And this doesn't mean judge, shame, blame, be embarrassed about it. This means be curious. I always say be curious, not judgmental. Consider like, for me, I was saying, like the way that I was raised. And if I look at my grandma and my mother and that's just to offer myself a little compassion, that, hey, this is how you were taught. And once we Realize how we were taught and how that's impacted us. The ways that we have adapted and decided to live our life. Then from that, we can choose different. Now when we make that choice, it's gonna feel very scary at first. So I encourage, like, little baby steps of maybe instead of just going along with something, we at least share our opinion. It can be taken or not. We don't have to fight. Or maybe next time you're negotiating for your next contract, maybe we ask for 5,000 more than we would, you know, little bits, little things just so that we can start to prove to our nervous system. Cause here's kind of the trick. We have to prove that it's safe and okay. Because when we go out of that norm, it can feel really scary. And like now we might be hurt in some way, let go from our job, shamed or blamed, be left. Like, connection's really vital to us. And so just give yourself time to adjust. But that understanding piece is gonna be huge as you choose different.

C (31:56)

I have, over the course of my working life, forced myself to do that with the number, with negotiating. Take a deep breath, ask for 5,000 more. Realize the world doesn't blow up, you know, and that the person on the other side doesn't even blink. And then you're like, well, God, I should have asked for more. So it's a process. You are known and really loved, I think, for giving people tools that they can actually use. So as we wrap this conversation up, if somebody's listening and they think, okay, yeah, you got me. This is me. I keep doing this. What is the very first compassionate step that they can take today? To start changing the pattern. And then how, over the next 24 to 48 hours, can they take a step toward making it stick?

B (32:47)

The number one. And if someone's from my audience, they're going to roll their eyes. Journal. And I don't mean journal in a way that makes sense, that's coherent, that's telling a story. It's not. Dear Diary from when I was a teenager. What I want you to journal is about your experience, what you think is happening. Do we have any? I always tell people, you can ask yourself questions in journaling. I do it all the time. But book title. Why do I keep doing this? It's okay to ask yourself, why did I do this? Again, I minimize myself in that conversation.

C (33:17)

Why?

B (33:18)

And give yourself time to answer. Because the one thing I will tell you through being a therapist and being in therapy myself, is that we have all the answers. We often just don't take time to find them. And so I want you to start setting aside just five minutes again. Doesn't have to take long, it doesn't have to be legible. I have horrible penmanship, I'm left handed. Things don't have to be spelled correctly. I just want you to get some of this out and start setting aside that time to do that internal research because we can't change what we don't first understand and then the second you said to make sure it sticks as an add on to the journaling. I want you to start trying out different self regulation techniques. Now that's a fancy way of saying what makes me feel better, what makes me feel good. I'm talking about just regulating like stomping your feet, shaking your body out, taking a cold shower, taking a hot bath, drinking tea. Something very basic. We could even do vagus nerve stimulation. You can kind of rub along your neck. I want you to find a way to soothe your system because as we make those changes, those tools are gonna be vital.

C (34:26)

Kati Morton the book is why Do I Keep Doing this? I know that our listeners are gonna have questions for you when they start rolling in. Can we invite you back to do a mailbag with us?

B (34:38)

Of course, I'd love to.

C (34:40)

If you love today's episode, please take a moment to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcast. Your feedback means the world to me. Looking to grow your investing skills and make smarter decisions with your money in 2026? Join HerMoney's investing fix, the twice monthly women's only investment club where equity expert stock pickers pitch ideas and you help build the portfolio. Since launching four years ago, our member driven picks have outperformed the S and P. Thanks to smart collaborative choices, we've got a strong track record and a community that's learning and winning together. Tap the link in the show notes and check out Investing Fix today. Her money is produced by Hayley Pascalita and our music is provided by Video Helper. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk soon.

A (35:36)

On June 18, 2023, OceanGate's Titan submersible imploded during an expedition dive to the Titanic, killing all five on board, including OceanGate founder and CEO Stockton Rush. Numerous industry experts and employees from within Oceangate itself had warned Rush of impending doom, citing safety concerns and a lack of testing. His hubris, ego and reckless desire for innovation over all else cost him his life and that of four others. The catastrophic destruction of the Titan submersible sent shockwaves through the Ocean exploration industry that are still being felt today. The Oceangate Titan Submersible A Preventable Tragedy, a two part series available now on Shipwrecks and Sea Dogs. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.