← HerMoney with Jean Chatzky
HerMoney with Jean Chatzky
Ep 518: What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You About Aging (And What It'll Cost You)
00:48:27
What women need to know about aging and money.
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- [00:01]
Lacey Garcia
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- [00:29]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
On December 12th, Disney invites you to go behind the scenes with Taylor Swift
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Jean Chatzky
in an exclusive six episode docu series.
- [00:37]
Lacey Garcia
I wanted to give something to the fans that they didn't expect. The only thing left is to close
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Jean Chatzky
the book the end of an era and don't miss Taylor Swift.
- [00:48]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
The Eras Tour, the final show featuring for the first time the tortured poets department, streaming December 12th only on Disney Plus. I've always found it a little weird that we have a system that puts the cost of medicine on people, right? So I have a deductible, I have a copay. I have a copay separately for my medications from my physician, office visits and hospitalizations. I don't make those decisions. There's a little, you know, 20 to 30% of healthcare where I make decisions about it, but most of those decisions are made by the doctor. Why am I financially responsible for what the doctor decides?
- [01:34]
Jean Chatzky
Hey everyone. Welcome to Her Money. I'm Jean Chatky. We spend a whole lot of time on this podcast talking about building a rich life. Financially, professionally, personally. We talk about saving for the future, protecting our families, creating financial freedom. But there is a bigger question underneath all of that. What are we actually building this life for? More than a decade ago, my guest today sparked a national conversation when he wrote that he hoped to die at 75 simply because he doesn't believe that our goal should be to live forever, but rather to live well, to live meaningfully, to be able to contribute to society and be intentional about how we spend our finite time on this earth. Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel is an oncologist, a bioethicist, chair of the Department of Medical Ethics and Health Policy at the University of Pennsylvania. Go Quakers. He's also the author of the new book Eat yout Ice, six Simple Rules for a Long Healthy Life, which is all about what actually moves the needle when it comes to health and longevity. And in a culture obsessed with anti aging, biohacking, squeezing out every possible year, he offers a radically different idea. That quality of life matters more than quantity, and that chasing longevity at all costs may actually distract us from what makes life worth living. Dr. Emanuel, welcome to Hermoney. I've been looking for an excuse to get you here.
- [03:15]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
Wow. I am very honored to be here and impressed by your very, very pithy summary of my philosophy, because you're 100% right.
- [03:25]
Jean Chatzky
Well, tell us a little bit about you and how you got to this philosophy.
- [03:32]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
Well, maybe I worry about, you know, what's the worst that could happen? A lot. But it seems to me that the worst that could happen for me is my body's doing great. You know, the heart's working, the lungs are working. Everything's good. All the hormones are working well, but the brain isn't working, and I have dementia or cognitive impairment. That would be hell. That would be awful. That would be terrible. And I recognize that in some ways, that is very much the inevitable place that many of us are going, and I don't want to be there. I've made clear to my wife and my kids that's not for me. But if you have that view, you then think about how. What does it mean for the rest of life? How do I live a fulfilling and meaningful and contributing life? And that is the fundamental philosophy. That's why, you know, 75 is so important, because basically, dementia perks along very low level, and then it spikes up very sharply at 75 and continues to increase. Now, there are things you can do to affect that. So that's the basic philosophy. This particular book is, as you correctly point out, a society where we're obsessed by wellness. We're monitoring everything. We're trying to live to 150, as Brian Johnson points out, or other people argue. Seems to me to get it wrong. It emphasizes living a long time instead of living a full life and living a long time. There are limits to it. We know that biologically. And I think obsessing about, you know, did I sleep well? How much did I walk yesterday? What am I eating? How much protein makes you anxious with probably not adding a second, much less a day, much less a month to your life.
- [05:34]
Jean Chatzky
I agree with you on so much of that. I clipped a Time magazine cover from 2015 where they put this cherubic baby on the COVID and declared it likely that he would live to be 142 years old. And it just made me nauseated because I don't want to. I don't want to do that.
- [05:53]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
Well, Let me make two points. First of all, Euclid 2015. Let me tell you, in 1909, the St. Louis Post dispatch had a headline that says, researcher says Science will allow us to live to 150 or 200 years, 1909. We've been chasing the fountain of youth for a long time. The second point I would make is that we have not pushed up the person who's lived to the maximal age that has stayed solid. Yes, we have more people living into their 90s, more people living into their hundreds and becoming centenarians, but going past 115, 120 has not happened at all, suggesting there really is a natural biological limit to us. I would say I don't know how many people you know who are over 90 and certainly over 95 or 100. They're not dancing, they're not taking trips. You know, there is an occasional person who you meet who, yes, they are going out there, but most of them are literally in a chair, not moving. They have to be wheeled around. My mother's 92 and she has to use a walker and is now pretty much confined to a house. Her mind is sharp as hell.
- [07:10]
Jean Chatzky
Sometimes I think that makes it just so much, much harder. You've been critical of the wellness industry that much of what's being sold is simply being sold. It's not necessary. Supplements are on that list. What do you think it is about this quest for wellness that drives us to spend so much money when we, we pretty much know it's not going to do any good.
- [07:38]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
So first of all, we spend about anywhere between 1 and 2 trillion dollars, depending on what you classify as wellness per year in the United States on wellness, including supplements, Canyon Ranch and all the other stuff. I think what's going on, honestly, is an attempt to have autonomy and control part of your life. We are living in very topsy turvy times. This isn't the first time we've had a wellness obsession, not only in the United States, but in the world. The same was true between 1880, roughly and 1914, the start of World War I. And there are incredible parallels between those two times. First of all, industrial revolution. So then it was, you know, automation and factories. Today it's AI. There were a lot of small wars. Then it was, you know, the Russian Japanese War, the Franco Prussian War, Britain in the Boer War. Now we have the Iran war, but we've had Russia, Ukraine, we've had Israel, Gaza, we've had South Sudan, lots of immigrants coming in to fill some of those factory jobs and other jobs in society. We've also had a lot of income inequality. You can go on and on. Then the response was exactly what it is. Vegetarian magazines, hygiene books, the flourishing of spas, Baden Baden in the United States, we had spas in Saratoga, all similar. And I think in both cases what you have is the world seems out of control. The world seems to do more to control us than we can actually control our life. And we want to assert some kind of control. And so wellness seems to be an area. The vaccines I take, the food I eat, the exercise I anticipate in that's a place I can control. So I think that's what's going on today. That's what I think the motivation is. And people are willing to spend a lot of money for some kind of self determination, self control.
- [09:41]
Jean Chatzky
The ice cream is interesting to me. It's the second time in a week and a half that I have focused in on a longevity expert talking about ice cream. I was moderating a panel at the Lake Nona Impact Forum last week. Joe Coughlin, who runs the MIT Age Lab, said people, as they think about their longevity should really ask themselves a few different questions about how they will spend their days in retirement. And one of those questions was, where are you going to get an ice cream cone? And for him, it was a, it was a social thing. It was, you know, eating an ice cream really isn't about the ice cream. It's about happiness. It's about community. What drew you to the ice cream?
- [10:28]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
Well, first of all, data drew me to the ice cream. How about, you know, ice cream actually being good and not bad for you? But also, I do think this issue is we're on the planet 75, 85, 95 years, whatever the number is. And you can either be despondent and sort of worry about the end, or you can say, look, I'm going to take joy in life and grab it and try to suck the marrow out of it, as Henry David Thoreau said. And I think ice cream is one of those things that almost everyone likes it. And it is about living joyfully. It's also about living socially, it's about living healthily. And I think it sort of embodies a philosophy of life, which is, I am going to live life to the fullest. And ice cream represents that fullest. Now, that's not to say you eat a pint a night. It does have a lot of sugar in it, too. But it is to say that living a full life is not about self deprivation. It's not about denial, it's not about suffering. It should be about joy, joy for yourself, joy with other people, because that's critical to living a full life. And so I do think ice cream Embodies a lot of that.
- [11:40]
Jean Chatzky
You lay out six principles in the book. I don't want you to tell us about all of them because I want people to go buy it. But tell me about your two favorites.
- [11:51]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
Well, I think social relations is the most important thing. As I say in the book, my father was an inveterate extrovert. He loved talking to people. He thought people were the most interesting thing in the planet. And wherever we would go, he began to strike up a conversation and ask people about themselves. Why they were living, where they were living, what they were doing, their families, where they came from. And it turns out that the data support him. And he did this long before There were extensive data on this. Lots of studies. More than 3 million people study that, you know, social interaction is the most important thing you can do for your health, longevity, and your happiness. And even introverts. You know, I get this question a lot. Well, I'm introverted, and talking to other people is painful. It turns out that studies have been done taking introverts and then saying, all right, one week, just commute normally. Next week, you have to talk to one person on your commute. And it turns out introverts are much happier when they talk to a person. They actually think that the transit is gone faster. And we often have ideas in our head. Well, they'll be bored. I won't learn anything. I'll waste my time. Turns out almost uniformly to be false. You actually enjoy it. You learn things, the time goes faster. It is really important. I'll just tell you one anecdote.
- [13:19]
Jean Chatzky
Sure.
- [13:19]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
I was recently on a plane to Boston, and there's a woman sitting next to me. And I said, you live in Boston or you're going to Boston for business? She said, oh, no, I live in Boston. I said, where? She told me, Gloucester. And then we got onto it. And it turned out that a few years ago, she began taking over abandoned properties and, well, the city's central area and began planting flowers and all sorts of items. And she got the garden club involved. She raised money from local businesses. And now people come to Gloucester every spring to see the flowers that they plant. It's become a communal activity. And this is like, this was a conversation I had with her. I learned about this activity in Gloucester, which I didn't know, even though I have two daughters who live in the Boston area. It turned out to be wonderful to talk to her. And then she, of course, began asking about what I do and why I was flying to Boston. And that little connection just put a Smile on me for the rest of the day.
- [14:18]
Jean Chatzky
Yeah. I was raised in the Midwest as well, so I also talk to people on planes and in elevators too, sometimes to my children's great embarrassment.
- [14:28]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
Exactly.
- [14:29]
Jean Chatzky
I have had a number of very, very successful parents on this show over time. We do it often. For Mother's Day, I had Donna Kelsey on. Who? The mother of Jason and Travis Kelsey. We had the mother of the Wojcicki sisters on. You are one of a family of such successful brothers, your brothers Ari and Ram. What did your parents do? Right.
- [14:58]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
Well, first of all, you know, you have to be lucky and get some genes from them. I think one of the genes we certainly got from my parents is high energy. That helps. But I would say that maybe the most important thing is a combination of. My mother was the anti helicopter parent. She did not hover. She would out of the house and she would say, you know, go play. And she would sometimes take us to the beach and put down the towel and we had a bunch of food and she'd say, you know, home at 5 for dinner and leave us there. Now she'd probably be arrested for child neglect. But she used to say to me, you know, I'd say, it's raining outside. She says, you're not that sweet that you're going to melt. And that means you have to take initiative on what you're going to do. You have to negotiate with your friends. We would endlessly, you know, are we playing touch football? What are the rules that that person file? Not foul. You know, all of those things are really important to navigating the world, but also to executive function planning, etc. Simultaneously. My mom was not one of these people who took no interest in her kids. She was very supportive and she was committed to social justice issues. She was very heavily involved in the civil rights movement very early in the late 50s, when white women were just not present. And then in the anti war movement again, way before other people were involved. She took us on demonstrations and she expected us to stand up for the right thing. And if we got in trouble, she was always there to defend us. And this was particularly true of Ari, who was constantly getting in trouble. It's not like Rahm and I didn't get in trouble, but that was a very important element that my mom did is to make sure that she defended us. And we knew that we could count on her support. I think those are two of the most important items. And of course, you know, we had dinners together as a family. My dad was very committed to travel and to expanding our horizons. So he always argued that travel is the best education and we would invariably start school late because we were on some trip with him and so enormous opportunities just to learn were part and parcel of that. And the last thing I would say is Rahm, Ari and I are our best friends and a large part of that is we slept in the same room for years and years and years. But we also spent a lot of summers together where it was just us three and we had to figure it out together. Of course there was plenty of fighting. I mean, you know, I joke that bedtime didn't happen until there was blood on the carpet. We will criticize each other heavily and I always tell my people who work with me, you can't say anything to me worse than my brothers say to me every day. I can take that criticism because I know that it's really affection from them.
- [17:54]
Jean Chatzky
Thank you so much for sharing. We're going to take a very quick break. When we come back, we're going to get practical and talk about what it actually costs to age well in America and how you plan for it. Let's be honest, retirement planning can feel overwhelming and a little confusing and sometimes like a second full time job. You told us you want more straight talk retirement plan guidance, so we're delivering. Starting now. On the third Wednesday of every month, we are teaming up with Limra to drop a special retirement focused episode of the podcast. With practical tips, smart strategies and real world conversations, these episodes will give you the tools to help you feel more confident about what comes next. Thanks to Limra, these monthly episodes will touch on everything from from how much you need to save to last a lifetime to actually turning those savings into a paycheck you can live on and enjoy. No jargon, no guesswork, just clear practical guidance to help you feel prepared and empowered as you step into your next chapter. So mark your calendar, hit subscribe and tune in every third Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts. Tax season is funny. It's one of the only times all year when we actually look at our full picture. What we earned, what we spent, what we saved, and sometimes what we wish we'd done differently. But instead of just looking backward, I want to use this moment to move forward. Simplify your finances with Monarch Monarch is the all in one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial financial life. Budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth and future planning all together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with Code Hermoney. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all in one tool that makes money management simple. Use code hermoney@monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off@monarch.com code hermoney. We are back with Dr. Zeke Emanuel, oncologist, bioethicist, author. Let's start with the big picture. Healthcare is one of the largest and probably also the least predictable expense that we have in retirement. How do you think about and how do you think we should be thinking about the true cost of aging today? I mean, even when you think about Medicare, retirees are spending a huge portion of their Social Security and total income just on premiums and co pays. So for those of us who want to stay as healthy as possible for as long as possible, what's the game plan?
- [21:03]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
It's a very, very important question. And I do think the system is breaking down. I think almost everyone feels that what we're lacking is a plan to bolster the system and some of its health care. Some of it's long term care and a lot of people go into retirement not realizing Medicare does not cover long term care. You need to go to a nursing home that is on your own. That is not part of the Medicare system. It's one of our big gaps and we really need to address that. And unfortunately it does mean you have to have a emergency pot of money which you can deploy. And it does mean you have to, I think, you know, scrutinize with your doctor what's absolutely necessary and what isn't. I've always found it a little weird that we have a system that puts the cost of medicine on people, right? So I have a deductible, I have a copay. I have a copay separately for my medications from my physician, office visits and hospitalizations. I don't make those decisions. There's a little, you know, 20 to 30% of health care where I make decisions about it, but most of those decisions are made by the doctor. Why am I financially responsible for what the doctor decides? You know, where they're going to do the surgery, which kind of chemotherapy I'm going to get. And I think we have to push to get that off of our plates. And one of the things that I think is most horrible is we're actually loading more financial responsibility on people, not less. And people have to put away savings that can tide them over because they need to be able to take their get their health care and take their medications. But they also need to be pestering their congressmen and senators that this system is not working for them and that they need to be protected from those costs. We also need to be realistic ourselves. One of the most important issues is that we confront how much care do we want at the end of life? How much chemotherapy would we want if we got cancer? And I think we need to take some responsibility for those kind of issues too. You know, the doctor may offer us, you know, what we call in the cancer field, third or fourth line chemotherapy. That isn't proven. And whether we take it or not is a decision of ours. And I do think we need to reflect on how much of that treatment we want and how much we don't want. I'll just give you a story. My dad, on a Saturday night, he was out to dinner with my mom, fell down. They took him to the hospital. They did a head CAT scan and it turned out he had a tumor in his frontal lobe. They transfer him to a hospital. I was in Washington and he was in Chicago. I flew in the next morning. Already at the hospital on his floor, looking at his chart was the neurosurgeon and the neuro oncologist, the guy who gives chemotherapy for brain tumors. And I said to the people, this isn't going to happen. He's not getting chemotherapy, he's not getting surgery. He's 92. He's lived a great life. And you're simply going to ruin the last bit trying to squeeze out Lord knows what. And 10 days later, my father died. He'd seen the whole family. He died quite peacefully in his bed. That's the way you want to go. But you do have to be able to say to the system, no, we're not doing that. We thought about this when my dad had. It was quite clear that he loved life, he loved people, he loved doing everything. And he certainly didn't want to get lots of medication at the end of life. That wasn't going to really add to the quality of life and maybe add a few more months, but just wasn't going to be that rich.
- [24:53]
Jean Chatzky
First of all, I'm sorry about your dad. I think when we see these things happening in people, we know we've all got older aunts, uncles, cousins, relatives. It's pretty much begging us to have those conversations with the people who are going to make the those decisions for us or with us about exactly what we want. If dementia sets in, if we are over a certain age and get a cancer diagnosis, the time to have these discussions is when we are young enough to actually rationally make these decisions, and yet far too many people won't even have the conversation. Have you come across any ways to get people to the table?
- [25:42]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
Well, I think that there are two important elements to it. The first important element is sometimes there's a big news story about someone, whether it's Terri Schiavo, which happened in Florida about 20 years ago now, or someone else. You can use that as a jumping off point. What do you think about that circumstance? We recently had a famous actor who died of colorectal cancer. What do you think if you were in that circumstance? And then I do think one of the big points is to try to have an organized framework for having that discussion. There are lots and lots of advanced directives online that are specific. They sort of paint scenarios, and then you can go through them and think through with your loved one what it's like, and you can use it as a discussion. I think it helps to have a organized way of going about. Well, what do you think about antibiotics? What do you think about artificial nutrition and hydration through a tube? What do you think about having surgery in this circumstance? Making it concrete, I think helps a lot. And it's important, as you say, to have it with your loved ones, because those are the people who almost inevitably are going to be there. And having it also with your doctor so he or she understands where you're coming from is also very, very important.
- [27:03]
Jean Chatzky
Yeah, absolutely. For anybody who's looking for a good one of those documents that'll lead you through the conversation, I actually like the Five Wishes Living Will framework. It's free, it's available online. You can just Google it and find it. We're a money show. We're a money show specifically for women. Women have the advantage, disadvantage, whatever you want to call it. We tend to outlive our partners. We tend to retire with less savings. What's your advice, if you have any, specifically for women about being at this intersection of longevity and financial security?
- [27:44]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
You are 100% right. That's one of the biggest challenges is that women outlive men five or six years on average. But of course, averages hide very big differences. And I do think having a nest egg that is separate is a very important item. You don't want to have a situation where you and your spouse have created a nest egg and then you spend all the money on your spouse and you're left literally impoverished. That is not a good place to be. And I think people who are effective think about, well, how much will it cost for the surviving spouse, whoever it is, to actually live and to put that money aside and to put it away so you don't actually touch it for other things. I think I've, you know, in my older age, I've come to think that's really, really important. My wife and I spend a lot of time thinking about, well, this is how much, if Zeke gets sick, this is how much we're going to need for nursing care. And here's what is going to be left for my wife that isn't going to be used for that nursing career.
- [28:52]
Jean Chatzky
You wrote your famous column about being ready to die at 75 a number of years ago. Now you're now 68. Has your thinking changed? Has it evolved? Has your number changed?
- [29:05]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
My number hasn't changed. And this I think I said in the article, but probably not as clear as possible. You know, that 75 thing is a, it's an average. It's about the bell shaped curve. And this is what happens on average. Now, some people are going to be on one side of average. They're going to actually have problems earlier. Some people are going to be on the other side of average. If I happen to be on the other side of average, my rule still holds that I don't want treatments like chemotherapy, like a major heart surgery that are intended to prolong my life. There are lots of other things I would take, you know, hip replacement, cataract surgery and things like that. And I haven't ruled those out. If I'm still going, I might have to reevaluate. But there aren't that many people who are still fully vigorous in their 80s and 90s. I know some and there are some. And if I turn out to be one of those, we might have to reevaluate.
- [30:02]
Jean Chatzky
Dr. Zeke Emanuel, the book is Eat yout Ice, Six Simple Rules for a Long Healthy Life. Thank you so much for the conversation.
- [30:11]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
Thank you. This has been terrific and I hope, helpful to your listeners.
- [30:14]
Jean Chatzky
Absolutely helpful. We'll be right back. When we launched HerMoney, I remember thinking, what if no one listens? What if this doesn't work? Starting something new, whether it's a podcast, a side hustle or a product you've been dreaming about, always comes with doubt. But having the right partner makes all the difference. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the United States. From brands just getting started, started to household names like Thrive Cosmetics and Allbirds, it gives you everything you need in one place. Inventory, payments, analytics. No juggling multiple platforms. You can build a beautiful online store with ready to use templates. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com hermoney go to shopify.com shopping shop/hermoney that's shopify.com hermoney hey everyone, it is time for our mailbag. Today we're digging into a question that I know many of you wrestle with across the age span, across income levels. And the question is what does it actually mean and when does it make sense to hire a financial advisor for an ongoing relationship versus when you just need some advice? Some of you are doing everything right. You're saving, you're investing, you're staying out of debt. But I know that you are lying awake wondering if you're missing something others of you are rebuilding after a divorce or time out of the workforce. You're trying to support your kids while protecting your retirement and maybe feeling a little chagrined that the numbers don't look as good as you hoped. And then there are some of you who are right on the doorstep of retirement. You've got a good six or seven figures saved. Suddenly the market swings feel pretty terrifying. And all of these are very different situations, but they come back to the same key questions as we delve into the category of getting some help. Do I need a long term relationship with a financial advisor? Would a one time plan or one time consult be enough? Or am I overthinking this entirely? To sort through all of it, I am joined once again by Lacey Garcia, founder and CEO of Willow. If you are new to this channel series, Willow is a personalized advisor matching platform. It connects women and their families with vetted fiduciary financial advisors. These are professionals. They are legally required to act in your best interest and they've been specially trained in working with women's financial lives. Lacey, I'm so glad that you're back.
- [33:34]
Lacey Garcia
Jean, wonderful to be with you.
- [33:37]
Jean Chatzky
Before we dive into our mailbag questions from our listeners, when do you think it makes sense to hire an advisor for a real relationship?
- [33:50]
Lacey Garcia
I love this question and I also love the fact that most people start by default, you know, asking themselves am I rich enough or do I have enough money? And that's not actually the question you should be asking. A better question to start with is do I have a clear picture of my financial goals? And then do I have a plan that I feel really comfortable with and I'm executing against on how I'm actually going to pay for them or achieve them. If the answer is no, or somewhat, which is the case for most people, then it's a good idea to get some financial advice. And then what does that look like? The question around is that I'm ready for a full time relationship, an ongoing relationship with an advisor, or maybe I should have a conversation, a one time financial plan. Similarly still with somebody who's a certified financial planner, a CFP professional who can look at your unique picture. But I would say here's a little framework and I'll have everybody just, you know, listen to these questions and hopefully they can help guide you too. What might be right for you. So starting with an ongoing relationship, are you ready? Do you have high income? Do you own a business? Have complex estate planning needs? Does tax planning matter? Are you going through a life transition such as divorce, a loss of a spouse, receiving an inheritance, or are you getting really close to retirement? Is it within five to 10 years? Do you feel like you could benefit from ongoing support, behavioral coaching or goal setting? You know, are you ready for some help? You know, perhaps you struggle to stay disciplined during market volatility, or there's some emotional aspects to your financial decision making that you'd like help with. You've got lots of questions and you just want somebody to help. And finally, do you lack the time or the interest for ongoing management of your investments? Right. It takes a lot to do that. Rebalance portfolios, track tax law changes. We outsource so much in our lives, Jean, when it comes to babysitting or grocery shopping, your money management, there's no reason why you can't do that as well.
- [35:58]
Jean Chatzky
So all of those questions that you just laid out, if the answer to those questions is a yes, that means that you're more ready for the ongoing advisor relationship.
- [36:10]
Lacey Garcia
Yes. And if a multiple or just a few of those questions, because also the folks who are say yes to a lot of those things. But one of the considerations is the fees, right. And how much it costs. So I'd say if you feel like, okay, those are all yeses, but I'm not sure if I have enough money, right. Is it going to make sense from a financial standpoint? And you think maybe I, I could just go for that one time planning session or that one consult. So here are some other questions that might help you determine that that's actually the right course for you to take right now. So are you a do it yourselfer? You know, do you have the time, the interest, do you actually follow through, you know, on your investments and implementing changes? And if you're looking for specifically scoped help, like I'm looking at buying a house or I want to set up a 401k, that could be a one time plan situation. And if your finances are stable, your income, your assets, they're not changing rapidly. And finally, the money question. Because if you have less than 250,000 in investable assets, it might make sense for you to do kind of a flat fee, one time session or series of sessions versus having that ongoing relationship.
- [37:19]
Jean Chatzky
That makes a lot of sense. And I'm thinking back in the context of my own life. When my first husband and I went to buy our first house, we sat down with a financial advisor to run the numbers to make sure that what we were thinking about was within budget. It was incredible, incredibly helpful. We didn't talk to an advisor for a decade after that because we didn't need it.
- [37:43]
Lacey Garcia
And that's exactly, that's exactly it.
- [37:46]
Jean Chatzky
All right, let's do our mailbag. We've got a question coming in from Erin. She says, I'm 44. I make about 135,000 a year. I've got roughly 410,000 in my 401k, 60,000 in a brokerage account, and about 35,000 in a high yield savings account. I max out my 401k. Good job. But I'm not doing a backdoor Roth or anything fancy. I don't have debt beside my mortgage, which has about $280,000 left. At 3.1%. I feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, but I don't know if I'm optimizing. Is that reason enough to hire an advisor or should I just keep going or on the path that I'm on? What do you think?
- [38:33]
Lacey Garcia
So, Erin, first of all, I want to commend you. You've shown real discipline with your finances and it sounds like you're doing a really good job. And if you're not ready to hire a financial advisor, you don't necessarily need to. That said, at your income level, questions like the backdoor Roth contributions, asset allocation between brokerage and retirement, and long term tax projections start to matter more because small optimizations compound and they can make a big impact not only on how you're growing your wealth, but your retirement savings. Therefore, in this instance, I would say it feels like it would be a good time to have a conversation or, you know, schedule a meeting with A certified financial planner for at least that one time planning session, that financial plan and that way you can get retirement projection. Ask about the backdoor raw versus traditional strategy and pressure test your asset allocation. And then you could keep going until your situation becomes more complex or until you start facing an unexpected life transition or you get closer to that retirement within that 10 to five years of retirement.
- [39:41]
Jean Chatzky
So for somebody like Erin, who's really, it sounds to me looking like a sanity test. Yes, sanity check. Plus some advice about the backdoor Roth and whether that would help her improve her returns in the future this one time, let's see how I'm doing. And maybe you come back again in a year entirely.
- [40:01]
Lacey Garcia
I think that is a great place to start. Erin.
- [40:04]
Jean Chatzky
Next question from Danielle. She writes. Hey, Jean and Lacey. I'm 50 and recently divorced. I was a stay at home mom for about 10 years. So I feel like I'm just getting back into the swing of earning and saving for myself again. I make $82,000 a year now, have about $180 in my retirement savings and I'm contributing 10% to my 401k. I downsized into a condo after the divorce. I have two kids, one finishing high school and one already in college. We've saved about $50,000 in a 529 plan for each of them which we're using for their first years. I also took out a parent plant plus loan. I don't want to fully pay for college, but I do want to help. Things like decorating their dorm, books, food, the extras that make it feel manageable. Part of me knows I should get professional help, but I'm embarrassed to show someone my numbers. Do I need an advisor or should I just buckle down and save more for retirement? Boy, Lacey, you and I both divorced. We know what it's like to start over.
- [41:11]
Lacey Garcia
Yes, and there's nothing embarrassing about these numbers. And you know, financial planners, advisors see everything. You're certainly not a shock. In fact, navigating divorce re entry into the workplace. And you're saving, you're resilient and honestly, you should take a moment to appreciate how much progress you've made. So for starters, please don't be embarrassed. You know, divorce and co parenting are both financially and emotionally challenging. And you are rebuilding your financial identity while also supporting two kids and navigating paying for college. That's a lot of moving pieces. So this is a time that planners would refer to as that critical decade. You know, you've got the life transition happening. You are getting closer to retirement within the next probably 10 or 15 years. This is a time where you have access to those peak earning years or catch up contributions. So financial advice is definitely a good idea and so you could certainly benefit at least from meeting with a certified financial planner for a one time comprehensive plan. Maybe it becomes an ongoing relationship and having a roadmap will hopefully help you feel more confident and empowered to increase your savings and keep going and also help you not to feel so embarrassed and stressed and take away the guilt because you are really doing a great job.
- [42:30]
Jean Chatzky
Yeah, I remember when I was and I felt like I was really starting over when I got divorced at 40. Charting my progress with an advisor was helpful because even though I was further from my goals than I wanted to be at that point, I could see the trajectory if I stayed on course to getting there. And that really in the moment that helped a whole lot. So I would say absolutely, talk to somebody and this is when you map out your future. We're going to take a very quick break. When we come back, we've got one more question for Lacey Garcia. Back in a sec. The year is moving fast and somehow there is still no extra time to cook. These are the weeks when I'm focused on work workouts and trying to eat well and I just don't want dinner to become another project. That's where factor has been. So help. I recently tried the ginger teriyaki salmon and the Thai roasted vegetable green curry and what I love is that they're fully prepared, dietitian, designated and genuinely satisfying. There are a hundred rotating meals every week including high protein, calorie, smart, Mediterranean and more. I use this and you should too. Head to FactorMeals.com HerMoney50OFF and use code HerHerMoney50OFF to get 50% off and free breakfast for a year. Eat like a pro this month with Factor New subscribers only. Varies by plan. One free breakfast item per box for one year while subscription is active. We are back with Lacey Garcia, our partner from Willow. We are answering a question for from Michelle. She says I'm 63 and planning to retire in about three years. I make around 145,000 a year. I've got 1.2 million saved between my 401k, an IRA and a taxable brokerage account. My house is paid off. I've always managed my own investments, mostly low cost index funds and I rebalance once a year. I'm also an investing fix. We appreciate that Michelle and I have found it incredibly helpful. I feel much more confident about investing than I did a few years ago. But now that retirement is close, market drops feel different. When the market falls 10 or 15%, I start wondering if I should move a big portion of cash. I don't. But I lose sleep thinking about retiring into a downturn. Is hiring an advisor at this stage just for reassurance ridiculous?
- [45:26]
Lacey Garcia
Wow.
- [45:26]
Jean Chatzky
What an amazing question. And I just want to jump in there, Michelle, and say, you're right to separate the work that we do in Investing Fix from what an advisor can do for you. Investing Fix is all about learning the language of investing. It's about learning how to pick investments based on fundamental research on your own. We do it with a group of incredible women, which makes it fun in and of itself, but it is not the sort of personalized look at your own portfolio and trajectory that you're gonna get from an advisor. So, Lacy, I don't think it's ridiculous. How about you?
- [46:07]
Lacey Garcia
Not at all. It's the smart and prudent decision to make. In fact, actually. And what you're feeling is incredibly common, especially when you are so close to retirement. You've done a great job, by the way. Obviously, incredible job. But, you know, a 10 to 15% drop in the market can be super stressful. And it, you know, it could feel like it completely impacted your lifestyle. And so this is another thing we look at.
- [46:30]
Jean Chatzky
Do you.
- [46:30]
Lacey Garcia
Do you worry that sort of your emotions could impact your risk profile? That's another triggering moment where it's a good time to start talking to and working with a advisor because you're facing this big life transition. You know, you're moving from accumulation to distribution. And that shift makes sequence of risk and returns very real. It also makes income planning more important than fund selection. So, you know, this is a good time to start working with an advisor. And for anyone else listening, if you're losing sleep or second guessing whether to move to cash, it's a great time to seek professional help for both determining the right strategy and helping you navigate this transition with less stress and more confidence. Because it's 63, protecting against emotional decisions and the anxiety around it matters much more so than saving some basis points. You're going to end up being happy that you're seeking that professional advice.
- [47:26]
Jean Chatzky
Absolutely. I think I've dropped a few breadcrumbs that I have a book coming out in September called the Forever Paycheck, and it's all about what Lacy's talking about here. It's about moving from that stage of accumulating money to actually using the money that you've accumulated. And there are a lot of strategies that basically suggest that if you can develop a paycheck, which often it takes the help of a financial advisor to do, you're going to be a lot more comfortable spending for as long as your retirement lasts. So I think setting up a meeting once again is a great idea. Lacey, thanks for joining us again.
- [48:05]
Lacey Garcia
Thank you Jean. I'm thrilled obviously to be here. As you know, I'm so passionate making sure that women find the right financial advice. Whether it be an ongoing relationship with the best fit advisor or also a wonderful conversation and a more, you know, kind of one time or limited relationship with the right certified financial planner. They're both really important to making you obviously feel confident and being able to achieve your financial goals.
- [48:33]
Jean Chatzky
Absolutely. Absolutely. To learn more about Willow or to be matched with an Advisor, please visit hermoney.com findanadvisor and we'll get you set. Thanks for listening everyone. And before we go, if you loved today's episode, please take a moment to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcast. Your feedback means the world to me, but it also helps other women find the show. And if you're ready to grow your investing skills and make smarter decisions with your money, come join Investing Fix, our twice monthly Women Only investing club. Expert stock pickers bring ideas to the table and together we help build a portfolio. Since launching four years ago, we've built a strong track record and more importantly, a community of women who are learning and winning together. Tap the link in the show Notes Notes to check out Investing Fix today, your first two classes are always free. Her money is produced by Hailey Pascalides and our music is provided by Video Helper. Thanks for listening and we'll talk soon.
- [49:41]
Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel
On June 18, 2023, OceanGate's Titan submersible imploded during an expedition dive to the Titanic, killing all five on board, including OceanGate founder and CEO Stockton Rush. Numerous industry experts and employees from within Oceangate itself had warned Rush of impending doom, citing safety concerns and a lack of testing. His hubris, ego and reckless desire for innovation over all else cost him his life and that of four others. The catastrophic destruction of the Titan submersible sent shockwaves through the ocean exploration industry that are still being felt today. The Oceangate Titan Submersible A Preventable Tragedy, a two part series available now on shipwrecks and sea Dogs. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.