Ep 540: The One Question That Will Change Your Relationship With Money

Summary

HerMoney with Jean Chatzky – Ep 540: "The One Question That Will Change Your Relationship With Money"

Date: August 12, 2026
Host: Jean Chatzky
Guests: Jesse Mecham (founder of YNAB, author), Lacey Garcia (Willow founder, in second segment)

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Episode Overview

This episode of HerMoney explores the psychological roots of financial worry and the challenge women (and many people) face in shifting from "saving" to "spending" mode, especially approaching or living in retirement. Jean is joined by Jesse Mecham, founder of You Need A Budget (YNAB), whose new book ("Never Worry About Money Again by Answering One Question") proposes a single, profound question that can radically change how we view and use money: "What is this money for?" The conversation is frank, compassionate, and sprinkled with humor as Jean and Jesse unpack both practical and deeply psychological strategies for finding peace of mind with money. The second half of the episode features Lacey Garcia discussing the impact of financial transparency and agency for women, inspired by Belle Burden’s memoir "Strangers."

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Main Interview: Jesse Mecham on Money Mindset

Why We Never Stop Worrying About Money

(01:27-03:32)

• Jean introduces a major irony in personal finance: we spend decades doing "everything right"—saving, investing, growing wealth—yet often cannot enjoy it, staying anxious about running out.
  • Quote: “A recent survey by Allianz found that 67% of people worry more about running out of money than they worry about death. Which is insane.” — Jean Chatzky (01:59)

The YNAB Philosophy: More Than Budgeting

(03:43-05:33)

• Jesse explains YNAB’s cult following stems from its focus on teaching, not just software: “It was less about the app and more about teaching people… what money really is.”
• A healthy relationship with money comes from education, reframing, and confronting sometimes negative beliefs (“some people think it’s evil. They think they shouldn’t want any…”).

Marking Money Transformation & The Power of Ritual

(05:33-06:36)

• Jean highlights the surprising devotion: fan fests, tattoos, and nationwide pilgrimages, tying it to the emotional weight and transformation YNAB provides.

• Jesse’s take: Tattoos and rituals are people’s way of “marking a moment of transformation” from being stressed by money to being at peace with it.

  • Quote: “They want to remember when they changed... they market. Sometimes they market permanently.” — Jesse Mecham (05:54)

From “Give Every Dollar a Job” to “What’s This Money For?”

(06:36-08:11)

• Jesse’s updated guide—moving from assigning “jobs” (which held its own conceptual baggage) to a gentler, more mindful “What’s it for?” reframing.
• The simplicity of this question is akin to using the breath as an anchor in meditation: “You can come back to it, just like breathing.”
• The goal is to reduce anxiety by focusing on present, intentional decisions.

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Money as Mindfulness & Letting Go of Shame

(09:58-12:34)

• Jean observes that Jesse’s advice feels more spiritual than strictly financial, inviting links to self-actualization and being “present” with money.
  • Wired magazine once described YNAB as “a tool for self-actualization.”
• Jesse admits he doesn't see himself as a spiritual teacher but believes “the idea of progress forever” drives him—whether financially, in personal development, or even lifting luggage into overhead bins.

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Why Money Worry Persists, Regardless of Wealth

(11:58-14:05)

• Money won’t buy happiness, but it can easily "steal" it through persistent, irrational worry—even among high earners.
• The problem shifts from survival to an “unnecessary” burden of worry, likened to carrying excessive risk in an investment portfolio.
  • Quote: “Above a base level of money that you need to survive, there’s this whole spectrum of people… that carry around that worry unnecessarily.” — Jesse Mecham (13:04)

“Rams”: Random Attacks of Money Stress

(14:05-16:05)

• Jesse discusses “Rams”—sudden, illogical bouts of money anxiety (even when a purchase is affordable).
• Many are unaware of the underlying anxiety until it dissipates through mindful money management.
• Quote: “It could be that you’re totally fine and … can totally do the vacation or buy the coffee every day… but you don’t know you’re fine. So the worry can just… ping you.”—Jesse Mecham (15:02)

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How to Get Started: The “What’s It For?” Practice

(17:46-19:53)

• Jesse’s practical advice: Always start with the actual money on hand, not potential/future income.

• Allocate every dollar to a purpose; this gives a sense of control even if nothing else changes.

  • Quote: “We always start with the money you have on hand. Never with what money you will earn later.”—Jesse Mecham (18:11)

• Mindfulness translates to finance: Being present with each dollar puts spending and technology in a new light and can be viewed as a form of self-care.

  • Quote: “That little bit back ... is, I would say it’s a little bit of [you] that you now have. And this precious resource is you.” — Jesse Mecham (20:29)

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Spending in Retirement: Why It Feels So Hard

(20:52-25:07)

• Jean and Jesse agree: the guidelines and frameworks protecting us as savers don’t exist for spenders.

• Spending is highly personal and resists formulaic answers—percentages and “rules” are temptingly simple but ultimately inadequate.

  • Quote: “There’s no book you can read that’s just like, stamped, approved. It’s just this self-learning. It’s a journey...” —Jesse Mecham (23:44)

• In retirement, money feels even more precious, and letting go, emotionally and practically, is difficult.

Embracing Spending Intentionally

(25:07-27:50)

• Money is for spending—either by you, your kids, charity, etc.
• Savers may even feel "distraught" when forced to spend from savings (e.g., replacing a broken computer).
• Jesse suggests building a highly detailed list of what money is for, then pushing oneself to expand it until true needs and wants are embraced. Repeat until the (retired) person “can’t think of anything else.”

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Final Reflections: Jesse’s ‘What is it for?’ Answer

(27:50-29:29)

• Jean’s closing question: What is money for, to Jesse personally, after all this time?
• His answer evolves: these days, it’s “beautiful things—usually made by people, sometimes just nature itself” and “legacy”: raising children with integrity and agency.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We have forgotten to think about what it’s for.” —Jean Chatzky (26:46)
• “This precious resource is you.” —Jesse Mecham (20:29)
• “You have to really start to get your head around the idea that this pile of investment money is meant to be spent.”—Jesse Mecham (25:07)
• “Our spending is one of the primary ways we express ourselves in the world.”—Jesse Mecham (29:24)

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Second Segment: Financial Independence & Transparency for Women with Lacey Garcia

Why Belle Burden’s Memoir Resonates

(31:56-36:59)

• Lacey discusses the surge of interest in women's financial agency after Belle Burden’s "Strangers: A Memoir of Marriage."
• Universal theme: the need for financial knowledge, control, and communication, especially when life changes (“money represents choices, independence, safety, power, and sometimes the ability to leave”). (35:12)

Takeaways for Women: Agency & Preparation

(38:13-40:53)

• "Knowledge and money equal agency."—Lacey Garcia (38:14)
• Even in a happy marriage, every woman should know her financial details before a crisis dictates it.

Practical First Steps to Take Control

(40:53-43:00)

• Gather documents: tax returns, account statements, policies, wills, etc.
• Build a personal balance sheet: assets, liabilities, income, expenses.
• Open your own bank account and credit card (if safe and possible).
• Seek objective professional advice—fiduciary advisors—and ensure they work for you, not just the family or your spouse.
• Never confront an abuser or untrustworthy partner without a safety plan.

How to Talk to a Supportive Spouse

(43:00-45:06)

• Frame the conversation as collaboration, not accusation.
• Focus on partnership and readiness to help, not suspicion.
• Set up regular financial check-ins and familiarize yourself with important information, including passwords.

Wealth & Agency Exist Separately

(45:06-46:54)

• Inherited wealth doesn’t guarantee agency, emotional safety, or transparency.
• The lessons in financial control and knowledge apply to all women, regardless of wealth.

Passing Wisdom to Daughters

(47:10-48:22)

• Money is not taboo; financial knowledge & control = power and agency.
• Teach girls to earn, negotiate, invest, spend, ask questions; prenuptial agreements should lose their stigma.
• Normalize conversations about money, transparency, shared decision-making.

Resources

(48:33-49:08)

• Lacey recommends Willow’s webinar "Empowering Her Finances" (Aug 18) and finding a trustworthy fiduciary via HerMoney’s advisor matching.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening & Setting the Stage: 01:27 – 03:32
• YNAB’s Cult Community: 05:33 – 06:36
• Shift in Philosophy (Give Every Dollar a Job → What’s it For?): 06:36 – 08:11
• Self-Actualization & Mindfulness in Money: 09:58 – 12:34
• Why Rich People Still Worry: 12:34 – 14:05
• Rams – Random Attacks of Money Stress: 14:05 – 16:05
• How to Start Changing Mindset: 17:46 – 19:53
• Challenges of Spending in Retirement: 20:52 – 25:07
• Jesse’s Personal Money Philosophy: 27:50 – 29:29
• Belle Burden's Memoir and Financial Agency: 31:56 – 36:59
• First Steps Toward Financial Independence: 40:53 – 43:00
• Building Financial Confidence for the Next Generation: 47:10 – 48:22
• Resource Recommendations: 48:33 – 49:08

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Key Takeaways

• The most powerful question to change your relationship with money is, "What's it for?"—this grounds spending in intentionality and reduces anxiety.
• True financial security isn’t about the amount you have, but aligning how you use money with what matters most to you.
• Money anxiety exists at all wealth levels; addressing it requires mindful, present management and self-knowledge.
• For women, financial transparency, access, and participation are critical—agency comes from knowledge and engagement, not just assets.
• These lessons are crucial to teach our daughters: money knowledge is power.
• Start now, wherever you are, to know your financial position, even before life forces the issue.

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For More:

• Jesse Mecham’s new book: NeverWorryAboutMoneyAgain.com
• Willow’s resources & upcoming webinar: HerMoney.com/Willow
• HerMoney Newsletter: HerMoney.com/subscribe

(End of summary)

Transcript

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

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[Jesse Mecham]

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[Jean Chatzky]

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[Jean Chatzky]

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[Jesse Mecham]

Money can't buy happiness, but it can steal it. And I think that happens a good bit of the time where I know too many people to count. Where they make way more than they were when they were 27. Now they're 47 and they're earning what they their 27 year old self would have never believed. You know how well they're doing and then you get them in a quiet moment and they're just as worried.

[Jean Chatzky]

Hey everyone, welcome to Her Money. Hi, I'm Jean Chatky. I have been thinking a lot lately about one of the great ironies of personal finance, which is that we spend decades doing everything right, or at least as right as we can. We spend decades saving and investing and building a nest egg and then we get to the point where we are supposed to enjoy it and we can't do that. We freeze up. We lie awake at two in the morning running the numbers. Even when the numbers are fine. A recent survey by Allianz found that 67% of people worry more about running out of money than they worry about death. Which is insane. And that's actually a big part of what my new book, the Forever Paycheck, is all about. It's about the psychology behind why it's so hard to shift from saving mode to spending mode and how to finally make peace with your money in retirement. So. So when Jesse Mecham reached back out, I knew this was a conversation I had to have. Now you might remember Jesse from when we had him on God right in the middle of COVID He blew our minds talking about the four rules behind Ynab. You Need a budget. The budgeting app with a cult following that Jesse founded. Well, he is back today. He has got a new book. I think it's going to hit home for a lot of you. And it's called Never Worry About Money Again by answering one question. His message is simple but profound. And it's something that I wholeheartedly agree with. Money is for spending. And unless we can close the gap between how we think we should spend it and how we actually want to spend it, we're gonna keep worrying. Jesse, welcome back. It's so good to have you.

[Jesse Mecham]

Thanks for having me back. I think we can wrap it up. I feel like that was. That was excellent. I was feeling it as you were saying it. So anyway, that was lovely. Thank you for that.

[Jean Chatzky]

Phenomenal intro for anyone. And look, you know that our audience, they love ynab, right. We have in our Facebook group so many had the question about what's the app that everybody relies on? We can, you know, give it up. Tell us about it and why it's different from all the other budgeting tools out there. Because clearly something is working.

[Jesse Mecham]

Yeah. One of the things that I think has worked and this, it's one of those deals where I've been doing this for over 20 years and you accidentally do things and then you find things that work and you just kind of double down on that. And one of the things that we found really early on was it was less about the app and more about teaching people. And you mentioned this when you introduced teaching them how to think about their money, like what money really is. And so we ended up kind of being an education company that sold software so we could keep educating, essentially. And education sells. I think teaching sells really well. And so we've just always kind of had just that teaching mentality and having people relate to their money in a new way that is. That is healthy. That's not relegating it to some corner like it's a chore or a to do or. I mean, some people think it's. It's evil. They think they shouldn't want any, though. They spend a good majority of their time trying to get this thing that they supposedly shouldn't want.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yeah.

[Jesse Mecham]

And. And so as we've taught people how to change the relationship, I think that's what's made the app successful. The app. I. I hope that everyone finds that it's a well done piece of software. It is. But when someone's relationship changes so fundamentally with something that is so a part of our lives, you can't help but kind of get a lot of emotion and a lot of attachment to it. I think that's what we see.

[Jean Chatzky]

Have you been surprised by the devotion that people have to Ynab? I mean, it has one of the top subreddits on the entire platform. People travel across the country to attend your fan fests. People are getting Ynab tattoos. I mean, you do not see that kind of devotion for a budgeting app.

[Jesse Mecham]

Yeah, I'm not a big. I'm not a big tattoo guy, personally. So when the team was like, we're going to have tattoo artists there, my first reaction was like, you have what? But, yeah, they were busy the entire day. People want to mark. This is my thinking with the tattoo. They want to mark a moment of transformation. They want to remember when they changed and when they can change from, I used to be bad and with money. It used to stress me out. It used to cause all kinds of angst and consternation in a relationship. And then they've transformed to, I am good at money. I don't carry this worry around with me all the time. They market. Yeah. And I think sometimes they market permanently.

[Jean Chatzky]

You know, I think that's so interesting. I always kind of have wondered what it is that makes people drive across the country to shout, I'm debt free at Dave Ramsey. But I think that's it. I think that is it. You've made some subtle but important shifts in how you talk about money. Ynab used to be built around the phrase give every dollar a job, and now you're asking people, what is this money for? On the surface, those things sound similar, but I have a feeling that there is a pretty big psychological difference. Can you walk us through it?

[Jesse Mecham]

Yes. When you introduce a metaphor as the core thing, you're already introducing a layer of one more thing you need to explain. What's a job? What do you mean when you say job for your money? What do you mean a job? It also frames it for people. Maybe not in a positive light. Maybe they don't like their job. Maybe the idea of giving jobs seems a little bossy or something and it rubs them wrong. But when you just ask someone with three of the simplest words in the English language or, what's it for? There's not a lot of trappings to it, and we've found that people just can come back to that simple question. Like, they would come back to breathing when they're meditating. Just, like, find your breath again. In, out. And when you're really stressed and concerned, with money, you can be. Okay, hold on. What's it for? Here we are again. We can kind of find our bearings, and so I'm excited to see how it does. I mean, the book is launching it in the world and then we intend just to teach the heck out of it. Hope that it really, really takes.

[Jean Chatzky]

We're going to take a quick break. We'll be back in just a sec. Support for today's episode comes from Square, the business platform that helps sellers become neighborhood favorites. Whether you're gearing up for a busy season or just trying to keep up with everyday demand, Square keeps your business running smoothly. You know, I'm always telling our listeners that the smartest money moves are the ones that give you back your time. And that's exactly what I notice every time I grab coff at my favorite spot nearby. The owner isn't fumbling with three different systems at checkout. She's just running her business. That's Square doing its job in the background. Right now, listeners can get up to $200 off Square hardware. When you sign up at square.com go hermoney. That's S Q U-A-R-E.com go hermoney. Get started with Square and build that works the way you do. I find that you have a very, very calming presence, which is, it shouldn't be surprising at all because the more I read your book, the more I learn about ynab, the more I notice that your money philosophy sounds less like traditional personal finance advice and more like something that you would actually hear in a yoga class or a mindfulness retreat. Right? You talk about money as an extension of yourself, about gr, about releasing guilt and releasing shame, about being present with your spending. Wired even called YNAB a tool for self actualization. Do you see yourself as more of a spiritual teacher than a finance guy?

[Jesse Mecham]

Oh, gosh, I don't see myself as either of those. Gene, that is a deep question. I love to see people, well, self actualize. I'll use the wired phrase. I love to see people improve. Improve. I love strength training. I love what it does for people at any age when they're old and they can get their bones a little thicker. I like that. I like to see their confidence. I like to see them be able to put a piece of luggage up into an airplane and not have a problem. You know, the whole thing. And so this I, I think I'm pretty into the idea of progress forever. And so this has been one of the areas that I've, since I was 14. My dad handed me a few books. The Millionaire Next Door. I know you know that one.

[Jean Chatzky]

Sure.

[Jesse Mecham]

The Richest man in Babylon. Kind of a classic.

[Jean Chatzky]

Yeah.

[Jesse Mecham]

And I, I just remember those and being like, oh, this is so good. I was so into it and that has never really left. So I've been able to take my personality of one that enjoys galvanizing, has an opinion pretty strongly held and also loves. It's like if I've found something good, I so badly want to see. You also have that good thing and that if we were to just be. You'd be at my house, I'd be like, oh, Jean, you have to try this tomato. It's the best to me. Oh, Gene, you have to do this. It's the best. This. And you'd probably be like, okay, I need to leave. You know, this is, we're good. But it's just, it's in my nature in that way. And so I've kind of allowed myself and I think it's a great blessing for me and my family that I get. My work is the thing that I really, I really enjoy.

[Jean Chatzky]

Yeah, clearly, it clearly makes you happy. And I can relate to that feeling of the progression making us happier. I mean, I've been doing strength classes for a couple of years now. I love that I can put my own suitcase up, no matter how heavy it is. I can have four pairs of shoes in there and I can still put it up, put it up way over my head. Because somehow they have managed to make those damn things taller.

[Jesse Mecham]

Taller. And you got to finagle it. It's.

[Jean Chatzky]

Well, you got a taco right now. It's a taco. It's not a fajita as they tell us. Research tells us that financial security is, is linked to happiness, greater happiness, not because money itself brings joy, but because it eliminates, it eliminates the constant worrying about it all the time. And so I'm wondering, do you think that the worry that we carry is really about money or is it about something deeper? Is it about a loss of control or a fear that we're doing something wrong?

[Jesse Mecham]

I think those are there. I think absolutely, yeah. Money can't buy happiness, but it can steal it. And I think that happens a good bit of the time where I know too many people to count, where they make way more than they were when they were 27, that now they're 47 and they're earning what they, their 27 year old self would have never believed. You know, how well they're doing and then you get them in a quiet moment, and they're just as worried. And so we know that it's not a function at some base level. Yes, but above a base level of money that you need to survive. There's this whole spectrum of people, millions and millions of people, that carry around that worry unnecessarily. And I don't mean worry like life throws worry at us. Illness. We know that this is life. We know that's all part of the game. But there's this extra. I mean, you. You know this from investing, where they. They talk about this asymmetric risk. You have this symmetric risk of just the market itself. But then it's like, whoa, hold on, Jesse. Your portfolio is carrying risk unnecessary to the returns it will get. And I think that's how we're. How we do money. We are carrying around this worry that is just flat out unnecessary. And we don't need to earn more. We don't need to spend less. And that root of fear. I think people are fearful that they're spending a lot of time acquiring this precious resource, and then they do feel like they've lost control. When the spending starts in the book, you.

[Jean Chatzky]

You call it Rams, Random Attacks of Money Stress. Can you just define it for us quickly? I want to know, how do you know if what you're feeling is this? How do you know if it's ruining your life? What are the. What are the symptoms if this is getting to you in an outsized way?

[Jesse Mecham]

Yeah, one of the symptoms is you can't think about money. My therapist will teach me this. Like, listen to your body. She'll be like, how? What? Like, literally, where do you feel it in your body? Is it chest? Where? Shoulders back. And I feel like I'm a novice at that. But when you think about money and you're just kind of attuned, you can feel sometimes in your body, you can feel the stress. Sometimes in a spending moment, whether it's a coffee or it's a vacation, the size of the spending often doesn't even matter. But it's just this little. Almost like a little, I don't know, a devil on your shoulder, just like casting some doubt, casting some concern. And it could be that you're totally fine and you can totally do the vacation or buy the coffee every day, it doesn't matter. But you don't know you're fine. And so the worry can just kind of sit there and just ping you. So the rams was from a story that one of our users wrote in, where he's like, I call this random attacks of money stress. I thought it was the funniest thing, but it's just these moments where, yeah, you're just like, oh my gosh, what is I've got to get some control. And when you start to act in the world and take control and decide what your money is for, you will notice those symptoms decrease. Another thing you can do just very quickly is you can just start to decide what your money is for without you'll be like, I don't feel stressed at all. I feel normal. And then what I'll show you is after you go through the answers and figuring it all out and you won't feel or your normal, you'll realize was full of worry and this new feeling you have, there's an absence of it that you just didn't know you were carrying it.

[Jean Chatzky]

We're gonna talk about how to do that on the other side, but right now we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be back with Jessi Mecham in just a sec. Support for today's episode comes from Square, the business platform that helps sellers become neighborhood favorites. Whether you're gearing up for a busy season or just trying to keep up with everyday demand, Square keeps your business smoothly. You know, I'm always telling our listeners that the smartest money moves are the ones that give you back your time. And that's exactly what I notice every time I grab coffee at my favorite spot nearby. The owner isn't fumbling with three different systems at checkout. She's just running her business. That's Square doing its job in the background. Right now, listeners can get up to $200 off square hardware when you sign up at that's square.com go hermoney that's s q U-A-R-E.com go hermoney get started with Square and build a setup that works the way you do.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn [e-mail] Spotify

[Jean Chatzky]

before the break, you said, I can show you how. I can show you how to get rid of these rams. And now I'm seeing these big rams in my head, right? It's a big, like Battering ram, heading toward your money stress. If we are going to try to incorporate this different way of thinking about our money, how do we start?

[Jesse Mecham]

We always start. This is a pretty key ynab thing that we've been doing for years. But we always start with the money you have on hand. Never, never with what money you will earn later. And when you start with what's on hand, you're dealing with a finite resource. Where you have a finish line, you will be done. So we start with the pile, whether it's $300 or $3,000. And you ask yourself, what is this money for? And the book elaborates on the five answers for what money is for. But when you've started to just allocate every bit, whether it's $10, a thousand dollars, it doesn't matter. But every single one of those dollars, you know what it's going toward. That is the beginning of you asserting yourself and taking control. And you will notice that you feel it. A debt collector might call, but you have control. You have the money. And you can just say, you'll get your money. When you get your money, there could be a bill that's overdue. But this other bill is more important because we're dealing with just what's in the moment right now. And even if you aren't earning more money all of a sudden and you don't have fewer bills all of a sudden, it maybe is the first time in a while where you feel like, I get to take charge here.

[Jean Chatzky]

We hear a lot of anecdotal stories from people spending mindlessly. Right. It's so easy to spend these days. It's not even money anymore. It's just your phone. It's dips and clicks and swipes and taps. Does this thinking about what it's for help you become more present with your technology?

[Jesse Mecham]

Yeah, it absolutely is. It is a mindfulness practice. You are being mindful of this precious resource. I will always call it a precious resource every time, because what you gave for it is precious. You gave some of your time, your attention, your calories, your network, your education, your upbringing, all of you rolls up into Gene Chatsky, who offers this value to the world. And in return, she gets a little bit back. And so that little bit back that you get is, I would say it's a little bit of Gene that you now have. And this precious resource is you. And so when someone is saying, I don't. I can't do money, I don't do money. It's not my thing. It's like that is, that is you there. So it's like let's, let's look at it like as self care instead of just money. And I think it starts to reframe it for people where it's starting to elevate money and its importance, where they're like, I will be mindful of this thing.

[Jean Chatzky]

Before we started taping today, we were talking about your book and my book and how they're sort of similar. I've coming at this point in life where you've saved for decades, you've put money aside for so many years, years with the purpose of it funding life after you stop working. And what the research is showing is that people are really having a hard time with the concept of spending that money. And look, I get it. I think behavioral finance has been so good for us in so many ways. But it's bubble wrapped our journey as savers and investors. It has really made it difficult for us to do the wrong thing and made it a lot easier for us to do the right thing. And that doesn't really exist for spending. How do you think people should think about spending differently in retirement?

[Jesse Mecham]

I'm gonna have to think on what you said around. There is no like just carte blanche kind of correct way to spend. I haven't ever that you put a word to it really quickly. But with investing, you know, you read a few books and people are like, well allocate, you know, diversify, follow these few things and you can kind of be like, I'm winning, I'm choosing correctly. But with spending it's so much harder because you're, you're Gene, I'm Jesse, and we're unique and it's just like what lights me up. Maybe you are into woodworking and we both are lit up by the same exact thing. But that'd be a fun, that would be a fun conversation we could have. But I, I mean I choose a woodworking project based on what tool I think it will necessitate me buying. You know, I'm like, o, this would be great. You know, and I just can't have too many of them it seems. And, and then there are other places. Like if you said hey Jesse, let's go eat out, let's. I'd be like, oh, can't we just, can't we just eat at my house? Like I'm sure I have leftovers somewhere in there we could do. It just doesn't move me. But if you flip it, you're like, hey Jesse, you'll be with Just Julie. And you're going to go to a fancy place somewhere far away from children. Now I'm back into it again. So there's these. We're all so unique. And that's why I laugh when people will often say like, it's the 50, 30, 20, 10. I mean, I know you know all of them. And it's funny how many different approaches they have with the percentages. It's the 80, 20, where you're like, oh, look, there are so many different percentage formulas that it seems like everyone needs their own, you know, and. Or if you live in the middle of the country or the edges of the country, totally different ball game again on how things proportion out. So. So the hard work is the more you ask yourself what is this precious resource for, the more you learn about yourself. And then as your spending lines up with this self that you know better and better, there's like this resonance and you're doing it right just for you. And there's no book you can read that's just like stamped, approved. It's just this self learning. It's a journey and it's. It's hard. The question, those three words, what's it for? Is simple, but the actual work of it is so hard, it's interesting.

[Jean Chatzky]

This is why I think I've always had a little bit of trouble with those studies that say you should spend your money on experiences rather than things. Because some people aren't experienced people. Some people are not lit up by the idea of going scuba diving or to an island or climbing a mountain or taking a cooking class. Some people would rather make their home beautiful and spend time there. And I think you're right. I mean, it is, it's incredibly personal. And it gets tougher in retirement because not only do the resources feel more precious, they feel more limited. They feel as if, you know, you've stopped earning and maybe your money will earn money and let's hope that that keeps happening. But that eng that was driving those contributions into your 401k has just stopped.

[Jesse Mecham]

Yeah. And so without knowing the growth rate with any kind of certainty, I mean, there are, you know, all the studies and everything that you have this, you know, safe withdrawal rate. But assuming we can't really know that, the only thing I could offer people is this. They have this big pile of money that is, as you said in the intro, is meant to be spent. That's the only reason it's still there. Or your kids spend it or whatever, that's fine too. Or you give it to A charity, and you better hope the charity spends it, otherwise they actually break laws if they don't get rid of some of their money every year, right? So the idea that money does anything except eventually be spent, it's just false. The idea that you phrase around savers and investors saving automatically gets like this approval rating where if you're saving, it's good, but as soon as you take that savings and you spend it, we have people that are so distraught they've saved money and then they're coming, computer dies and they have to use savings to buy the computer. And, and you're like, well, what we, what was that money for? Just to be saved? It can't. It doesn't exist. It can't. So you have to really start to get your head around the idea that this pile of investment money is meant to be spent. And I found the best way to do it is to really start to build a laundry list. What is this money for? And they'll say healthcare is going to be way up there, right? Housing, maybe some long term care and things like that, or maybe insurance for those kinds of things. But you just work the whole list until you have exhausted that retired person. Like, I can't think of anything else. And so often there will be a lot of their hard work still sitting there waiting to be used. And that's where you have to kind of press them, be like, well, now what?

[Jean Chatzky]

You know, it should be in some way, right? I mean, it should be thoughtful, it should be a serious exercise in what you want. Because if it's not thoughtful, then it's random. And that to me seems like a shame, right? It seems to be just using your money in ways that don't matter. And we've all had that feeling from time to time and it certainly doesn't feel good. So we've talked about worry, we've talked about spending with intention. I keep coming back to this idea that so many of us have been so focused on the destination, right? On hitting a number, on finally feeling completely secure, that as you say, we have forgotten to think about what it's for. So I want to end with the question at the heart of your book, what is it for to you as you've come through spending all of this time in this community that you've built, what is it? What is it now for you?

[Jesse Mecham]

It has changed over the years, which has been fun to see and kind of experience and push. For me, when you said make your house beautiful to me, it's surprising if you would have said 20 years ago. Jesse, what would you think about with money? And I am so lit up by beautiful, by beautiful things usually made by people, sometimes just nature itself. But I want to be in areas that are just beautiful to me. And that can mean that we go somewhere and see a beautiful thing as a family. But it can also mean that I just have my little garden boxes and they're perfectly lined up and I paid someone to nail that line and make it perfectly proportionate because I wouldn't quite pull that off. It could be something like that. And then the other side of it is just the legacy piece where it's not so much the money, but I want my kids to, when I'm long gone, I want them to be honest, faith filled and hardworking. And if, if, if you check those, they'll figure out the rest of it. They'll know how to answer what the money's for. It won't be a source of word for them. It'll bless them. You know, it'll be something where they can express themselves forcefully, authentically in the world. And our spending is one of the primary ways we do that. But for me, lately, I say lately, like the last four or five years, it's just kind of morphed on me. You're like, wow, I'm really enjoying beautiful things.

[Jean Chatzky]

The book is called Never Worry About Money Again by answering one question. Jesse, thanks so much for a great conversation. If our listeners want to learn more about this book, where do they go?

[Jesse Mecham]

The website neverworryaboutmoneyagain.com and you can also go. So grab the book. Wherever books are sold. We're super excited to have people doing the work of answering that question. What is their precious resource for?

[Jean Chatzky]

Amazing. Thanks so much for being here.

[Jesse Mecham]

Thanks for having me.

[Jean Chatzky]

I hope you enjoyed that conversation. But don't go anywhere because after the break, Lacey Garcia from Willow is back with me. We'll be right back. Support for today's episode comes from Square, the business platform that helps sellers become neighborhood favorites. Whether you're gearing up up for a busy season or just trying to keep up with everyday demand, Square keeps your business running smoothly. You know, I'm always telling our listeners that the smartest money moves are the ones that give you back your time. And that's exactly what I notice every time I grab coffee at my favorite spot nearby. The owner isn't fumbling with three different systems at checkout. She's just running her business. That's Square doing its job in the background. Right now, listeners can get up to $200 off Square hardware. When you sign up at square.com go hermoney. That's S Q U-A-R-E.com go hermoney. Get started with Square and build a setup that works the way you do. Welcome back to Her Money. I'm Jean Chatsky and Lacey Garcia, founder and CEO of Willow is back me if you missed our last few segments with Lacy. Willow is a platform that connects women and their families with vetted fiduciary financial advisors who are specially trained to understand women's lives and financial goals. Lacy built Willow after her own life changed unexpectedly in her mid-30s and she couldn't find the guidance she needed, so she created it herself. You can find [e-mail] Lacey, welcome back.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Thank you, Jean. It's a pleasure to be with you today.

[Jean Chatzky]

I'm so excited because we have been talking about you and me in our own private conversations, a book that has completely taken over group chats and book clubs and Honestly, my own DMs this year. Strangers, A Memoir of Marriage by Bell Burden. And this one is personal for you in a way that it isn't for most people who are covering it. You hosted a workshop after Bell's conversation at Hummingbird Books in June, and now you're doing a follow up and your lives have sort of intersected. Tell me about that.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yes, so because so many women have been so moved by Bell's book and asking questions and seeking information and trying to figure out how do I take control of my finances, how do I have conversation with my spouse about how I get access to information? So I hosted a workshop to help them get a clearer sense of their financial picture and how to take that next step in having conversations with their spouses or taking some control over their own finances. We talked about understanding household finances, asking for transparency, and the importance of protecting and gaining financial independence. And obviously there was really great kind of feedback and reaction and a lot more requests to do another session. So we're gonna be hosting a follow up and we'll be doing this on an ongoing basis, but because there is so much demand from these conversations that are taking place all over the nation.

[Jean Chatzky]

Tell me a little bit about her. I mean, her writing is so vivid that I think we all felt a little teleported into her life after reading the book. What is she like?

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Well, I did not know Belle personally prior to the publishing of the book, but I'd heard about her because she's an exceptional person. Right. She's really is obviously an eloquent and beautiful writer. She's beloved by her friends. And so people were really buzzing in advance of the book because a lot of the supporters of Willow are women who, similar to Belle, have experienced divorce. Right. And that is also my origin story of why I started Willow. So we all really applaud her for taking this step. Right. And sharing her personal story, which takes a lot of courage and bravery. And obviously she's received a lot of accolades. But there's also been some tension around it as well, some criticism. So I think I commend her for doing this and as so many others do as well.

[Jean Chatzky]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the book definitely struck a chord with me. I've been through divorce, not anything like she experienced. But I do think there are such universal themes of women feeling like they don't understand what's going on in their own financial lives. Why do you think, having dug in, that the book struck such a note with so many people, and not just women, by the way, who are divorced or even contemplating divorce, but just have decided, based on her story, that they want to get a grip on their own financial lives?

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yes. So, Jeanne, I'll start on the personal level. Cause I think there's three sort of main reasons why this has resonated with so many different types of women. First, for women like me who experienced a similar divorce situation to Belle, it's given voice to our pain and to our truth. You know, many of us, us stayed quiet, right? And we did the right thing. We pretended that everything was okay for the sake of our children and our families, while suffering affairs and betrayal and financial abuse. But Bell has written that our pain is real and that silence is not the same as peace and that protecting our children doesn't require abandoning ourselves. You know, she has also given language to some of the anxiety that many women feel when they're living a life that looks really secure from the outside, but inside they feel a little bit uncertain or disconnected, you know, so money represents choices, independence, safety, power, and sometimes the ability to leave. So some of these women who feel excluded from those financial conversations, there's anxiety there, right? And they've been given a voice around that. And also, you know, there's so many women who are happily, there's nothing wrong today, but it's a wake up call that something could change. And it's not necessarily a divorce, but we know through sudden death or illness. So they are wanting to have conversations and wanting to take control.

[Jean Chatzky]

You know, I think that last point is so important that I'VE talked before on this show about losing a friend this year. Not somebody who was sick, but a guy who I saw weeks before, spent a lot of time with over the summer, and he just had an episode and died. And it happens. And if you're not familiar with what's going on in your financial life, you could really be lost at a time when you're grieving and dealing with all sorts of other complicated minutiae just to keep the trains running. And so for women who read the book and are thinking, yeah, this is not my marriage, yeah, that's true. But it could be your life.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Very much so.

[Jean Chatzky]

So as you read the book, Lacy, what were the key financial themes that stood out to you? And what, what are the biggest takeaways that you want every woman listening to walk away with?

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

So, for me, the biggest theme and the greatest takeaway is that knowledge and money equal agency. And even if you're happily married, you should never give up agency over your own life. This means having knowledge and at least some control over your own finances. You should know your financial life before you need to know it urgently, right, as you were discussing, because oftentimes you get forced into a situation. Women get forced into a situation where they have to take control while they're also dealing with grief or other complications and challenges. But you should understand your accounts, your estate documents, your insurances, your tax returns, your debt, your household cash flow, and make sure you have access, not just awareness, but access that you're able to access if your partner all of a sudden is indisposed. Two other key themes for married women to take away are the importance of transparency and communication around finances in your marriage. Understanding your finances is not being intrusive or unromantic in your marriage. It's a part of building a healthy partnership and protecting your own agency, but also protecting your family if something should happen to them. Regarding transparency, whether finances are shared, separate or combination, both partners need a clear understanding of what exists, you know, what's being owed, what the assets, the liabilities are, and really how decisions are being made. And in terms of communication, couples need to talk directly about money, not just how much they earn, but their expectations around spending, saving debt, lifestyle, family wealth and hard decisions, financial responsibilities. Those conversations should happen before marriage or other major commitments, and they should happen then consistently throughout the marriage, you know. And also, it's important to be getting help from an objective financial professional. A fiduciary advisor or planner can help you understand your options. And as we talk about Jean all the time, it's important that it isn't just his advisor. Right? That you have your own personal relationship and you feel comfortable with that person.

[Jean Chatzky]

So let's get practical. If somebody listening is feeling genuinely concerned about their financial situation, maybe they have let their spouse take more control than they're comfortable with. Or maybe they don't trust their spouse fully financially, or they're scared that a divorce could come, or maybe they're even secretly wishing that they could get divorced, but they feel financially trapped. What are some proactive steps that they can take right now?

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yeah, so first it's take a breath. There's some easy steps you can take. So first step is building a clearer sense of your financial situation, quietly and safely if necessary. And the next step is then getting the help and the support to make the decision about what you want to do and take those actions. So start by gathering copies of important documents like your tax returns, bank and investment statements, retirement account accounts, insurance policies, mortgages, trusts and wills, and any pre nuptial or post nuptial agreements. You want to create a balance sheet, a basic balance sheet where you have your assets, your liabilities, your household income, your recurring expenses. And it's okay if you don't know what these things are right now. Right? Just getting some picture down on paper is better than operating in the dark. More clarity can come, come with time. And next, if you don't have your own bank account in your own name or your own credit card in your own name, if you could do that safely, encourage you to do so, so that you can have access to your own funds and you can start establishing or strengthening your own credit, which will give you more agency. And you should probably depending upon if you are thinking about divorce or really feeling like that's direction it's headed, then you'll probably want to to talk with a family law or divorce attorney, a fiduciary financial advisor, before making any major decisions. And they're going to help you through an initial consultation. That's a conversation, it's not a commitment to do anything, but they'll just help you understand your rights and your, your options. It doesn't mean that you have to leave and nobody needs to know about it. Right? That's a confidential conversation. And I think the last thing just is most importantly, don't confront your partner in a way that could put you at risk. If there are concerns about coercion or abuse, you know, make sure that you've gotten confidential support and that you have a safety plan in place before trying to have that conversation.

[Jean Chatzky]

All right, flip it on its head for me. Now. Somebody is happily married, no red flags, but they want to become more of an equal partner in this happy marriage. How do they start that conversation with their spouse without it feeling like an accusation?

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yes. And by the way, we have many women clients who not only came to that workshop that we discussed and told stories about how they were doing this. So this can happen really well again, if you frame the conversation around partnership, not blame, acknowledge and even compliment your spouse's efforts and like how good a job they're managing things. But then you can just explain that you simply want to understand your finances. Finances better help to share some of the responsibility. You know, you can mention the book, you can mention this podcast, you can mention how everybody's talking about this and you're now thinking it's smart for you to try to get a better understanding instead of saying, you never tell me anything, try. I just want both of us to feel confident. I want to feel more confident in helping to manage the finances. So I'd like to understand where everything is organized, make sure I have access, success, and then setting up regular financial check ins. And I know, Jean, you talk about this all the time and have some great advice around how to do that is important and you don't need to understand everything immediately. Start by asking questions and becoming familiar with the basics. It's also good to have one sort of goal that you both share, that you communicate openly and then you write it down right about I want to actually open my own bank account or whatever it is that that step. And in a healthy financial marriage, both partners should know how to access the accounts, contact key professionals, have good relationships with those professional or that specific professional, and manage things if necessary. Financial equality doesn't mean doing everything identically. It means both partners have access to information, a voice, and the ability to participate in important discussions.

[Jean Chatzky]

Yeah, a hundred percent. And passwords, passwords.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Oh, thank you.

[Jean Chatzky]

Really important. All right, here's something that came up a lot in the discourse around the book. Belle came from significant inherited wealth before she got married. Unlike a lot of women in similar situations, she wasn't really facing financial ruin the way that someone without a safety net would be. Does that change the lessons that we should take from strangers? Or do you think it points to something even bigger about how these patterns can play out regardless of how much money is in the picture?

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yeah, Bell's inherited wealth certainly adds an important layer, as you mentioned, but it doesn't diminish the book's lessons. And I think that's why it's resonated with so many women across so many different socioeconomic backgrounds. You know, wealth may provide that significant safety net where you're really not facing poverty, perhaps the way that many, many women do and we see all the time. But it doesn't guarantee transparency, autonomy, emotional safety, or control over financial decisions. Someone can have substantial wealth and assets and still feel dependent, uninformed, or unable to access their money, lacking that agency like Belgium did and what she wrote about. So the underlying questions are universal. Do I understand my household finances? You know, do I have access to the information I need? Can I make decisions independently? And what happens if circumstances change? So Strangers isn't a story only about wealthy women or for wealthy women. It's a reminder that money and power affect relationships at every income level and that everyone, all genders, really deserve financial knowledge, agency, and trusted guidance.

[Jean Chatzky]

One of the big goals that I know you have at Willow is helping women build financial confidence earlier in life, not after a crisis forces it. What are the lessons in Strangers that you want us to be passing down to our daughters?

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

So I want our daughters to learn early that money is not taboo. Right. And that financial knowledge and control will give them power and agency over their life life. We need to teach them to earn, to save, to spend, to invest, to negotiate, and to ask questions. Normalizing healthy conversations about money, about budgets, about long term goals, about financial decisions is really important. They should understand also that love and financial independence can coexist. A healthy relationship includes transparency, shared decision making, and continued access to money. It shouldn't be used for control. That's abuse. And the importance of having conversations with a partner prior to marriage. And that getting a prenup is no longer. It no longer has a stigma. It doesn't have to be unromantic, it's just smart. Most importantly, they should know that asking for help is a strength. They don't have to know everything themselves. They need to know how to find trustworthy information and to build a support team so they can get access to the information they need in the future.

[Jean Chatzky]

If somebody's listening and they're looking for more resources, maybe more than they get in this one conversation on a podcast, where would you suggest that they go next?

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yeah. So for women who are seeking just to understand better how to get a clearer picture or how to have these conversations, I encourage them to join a webinar that we're hosting, Empowering her finances, on August 18th. If they're ready to actually take the step of getting connected with a trusted fiduciary, financial advisor or planner and having just a conversation. We can also help them with that at Willow through the Find an Advisor on Hermoney's website. We are delighted to help anyone who comes to us.

[Jean Chatzky]

Amazing. We'll put a link to that webinar in the show notes so that people can find it. Lacey thanks so much for being here for getting real with us today. For all of you, thank you for listening to Her Money. If this episode resonated with you, share it with a woman in your life who needs to hear it. Her Money is produced by Hailey Pascalides. Our music is provided by Video Helper. Thanks for listening and we'll talk soon.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

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