“My male managers don’t respect me. How do I stand up for myself?”

Summary

HerMoney with Jean Chatzky: Episode Summary – “My Male Managers Don’t Respect Me. How Do I Stand Up for Myself?”

In this insightful episode of HerMoney with Jean Chatzky, Jean welcomes Lizzie Post, the great-great-granddaughter of the renowned etiquette expert Emily Post. Lizzie, co-author of the latest edition of Emily Post's Business Etiquette and co-host of the Etiquette Podcast, joins Jean to address the evolving dynamics of workplace etiquette in 2025, particularly focusing on the unique challenges women face in professional settings.

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Guest Introduction: Lizzie Post and the Legacy of Emily Post

[04:11]
Jean Chatzky introduces Lizzie Post, highlighting her expertise and the continuation of Emily Post's legacy in modern business etiquette. Lizzie provides a brief overview of Emily Post’s transition from a socialite to an influential author on etiquette, emphasizing her practical approach that balanced elite standards with everyday applicability. This legacy, now five generations strong, underscores the enduring relevance of etiquette in professional environments.

Notable Quote:
"Emily Post was essentially a socialite from the turn of the century, and she became an independent working woman, mother of two. I think she really found a lot of value in that life." – Lizzie Post [04:44]

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Evolving Business Etiquette in 2025

Jean and Lizzie delve into why business etiquette feels more confusing than ever. They attribute this complexity to various factors, including generational shifts, changing work cultures, and the lingering effects of the pandemic. The rise of casual work environments and the questioning of traditional standards, such as dress codes and work-life balance, contribute to this evolving landscape.

Notable Quote:
"The millennial generation has really started to question why standards are applied. Do I work better in that suit or am I just as good in my leggings?" – Lizzie Post [07:04]

Lizzie also discusses how remote work during the pandemic has disrupted traditional social behaviors and norms, leading to a generation of workers who may lack certain in-person professional skills.

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Listener Questions and Expert Advice

1. Speaking Up as the Only Woman in the Room

Question from Virginia:
Virginia expresses frustration about being the only woman in a strategy meeting with older male colleagues, feeling overlooked and seeking tips to stay confident.

Lizzie’s Advice:
Lizzie encourages Virginia to actively participate without waiting to be invited. She advises using conversational skills to insert herself thoughtfully into discussions and to assertively advocate for her ideas.

Notable Quote:
"Don’t wait to be invited. Say that great thought that you have. Use your conversational skills to insert yourself in the moments when it feels right." – Lizzie Post [09:03]

When ideas are co-opted by male colleagues, Lizzie recommends making ownership clear by attributing ideas to oneself from the outset.

Notable Quote:
"Use 'I' words from the get-go. It’s a lot harder to get stepped on." – Lizzie Post [12:34]

2. Negotiating Salary with a Competing Offer

Question from an Anonymous Listener:
The listener is considering a new job offer with a significantly higher salary but prefers to stay at her current company. She seeks advice on negotiating without burning bridges.

Lizzie’s Strategy:
Lizzie advises expressing gratitude for the current role while transparently presenting the competing offer. She suggests clearly communicating the need to consider the offer and inquiring if the current employer can match or improve upon it.

Notable Quote:
"Tell them how you feel about them, how grateful you are, and that this other offer has come unexpectedly into your life." – Lizzie Post [14:28]

Jean’s Input:
Jean recommends not settling for a “middle ground” and emphasizes the importance of standing firm to maximize potential compensation.

Notable Quote:
"Don't let them be the ones to take that portion off the table." – Jean Chatzky [16:00]

3. Addressing Toxic Work Environments and Being Treated as a Daughter

Question from an Anonymous Listener:
The listener feels undervalued and treated like a daughter by her managers in a toxic work environment. She contemplates leaving for a better position with only a slight pay increase.

Lizzie’s Guidance:
Lizzie acknowledges the difficulty of changing entrenched perceptions and suggests directly addressing the issue by expressing the desire to be seen as a professional peer rather than a child.

Notable Quote:
"When someone says they see you like a daughter, it is okay to say, 'I appreciate the sentiment, but I would prefer to be seen as a colleague, not a child.'" – Lizzie Post [22:31]

Jean concurs, emphasizing that a toxic environment warrants moving on despite a modest pay increase.

Notable Quote:
"The word toxic means get out of there and go into this new job." – Jean Chatzky [22:31]

4. Understanding Unlimited Paid Time Off (PTO)

Question from Holly:
Holly is overwhelmed with work and anxious about returning to the office. She asks about the practicality of unlimited PTO offered by some companies.

Lizzie’s Perspective:
Lizzie expresses skepticism about unlimited PTO, likening it to a managerial trap. She emphasizes that, like other workplace norms, the effectiveness of unlimited PTO depends on company culture and established standards.

Notable Quote:
"Look at the people at the company who have the positions that you want and how they're handling it, and you follow their lead." – Jean Chatzky [26:13]

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A Unique Listener Inquiry: Hiring Someone to Quit Your Job

Jean’s Question:
Jean brings up a Washington Post story about services that hire someone to quit a job on your behalf and asks Lizzie’s thoughts.

Lizzie’s Response:
Lizzie finds the concept short-lived due to the personal nature of resignations. She emphasizes the importance of making a good last impression and suggests that handling resignations personally strengthens professional networks.

Notable Quote:
"Quitting a job is an opportunity to make a really good last impression." – Jean Chatzky [28:51]

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Conclusion and Further Resources

Jean and Lizzie wrap up the episode by encouraging listeners to embrace strong business etiquette practices as they navigate modern workplaces. Jean promotes Lizzie’s new book, Emily Post's Business Etiquette, as a valuable resource for professionals at every career stage.

Final Notable Quote:
"If you love today's episode, please take a moment to leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcast." – Jean Chatzky [29:53]

Lizzie expresses her willingness to return for future discussions, highlighting the ongoing need for refined etiquette in the evolving business landscape.

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This episode provides actionable advice for women facing respect and recognition challenges in the workplace. By blending timeless etiquette principles with contemporary workplace realities, Lizzie Post offers valuable strategies for asserting oneself confidently and professionally.

Transcript

[Lizzie Post]

But I think women tend to be encouraged to wait to be invited to participate in conversation. And especially when it comes to business, as long as you aren't being rude about it. I would say get in the fray. Let yourself be a part of that. Don't wait to be invited. Say that great thought that you have. Use your conversational skills, your awareness of the pattern of conversation and the flow of conversation to insert yourself in the moments when it feels right.

[Jean Chatsky]

Hey everyone, I'm Jean Chatsky and thank you so much for joining us. Today on Her Money we've got a very special mailbag episode with someone who quite literally wrote the book on how to handle yourself with confidence and class in the workplace. I'm talking about Lizzie Post, great great granddaughter of the legendary etiquette expert Emily Post. Lizzie is the co author of the brand new edition of Emily Post's Business Etiquette. She's also the co host of the awesome Etiquette Podcast and she's here to help us navigate what can feel like a totally new professional world. Especially when so many of us are being asked or told to head into the office with out much clarity around what's expected anymore, even regarding what we can and can't wear. You all stepped up and you sent us some really amazing questions about how to handle work etiquette in 2025. From inserting yourself at an all male strategy meeting, to negotiating salaries, to knowing when it's time to walk away from a toxic job. But before we dive in, a quick word from our sponsors. But don't go anywhere.

[Hailey]

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[Jean Chatsky]

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[Jean Chatsky]

We are back with Lizzie Post, author of the new book Emily Post's Business Etiquette. Lizzie, welcome.

[Lizzie Post]

Thank you so much for having me, Jean. I really appreciate it and it's great to be here with your audience.

[Jean Chatsky]

Yeah, it's great to have you. Can we start with a little bit of background, your background? For anyone who doesn't know Emily Post and the incredible legacy that you are carrying on, can you share a little bit about her and how her work continues to evolve today?

[Hailey]

Sure.

[Lizzie Post]

Emily Post was essentially a socialite from the turn of the century from sort of going into the, from the Gilded Age into the the early, early 20th century. And I find her fascinating because she didn't start a career as a young woman and was famous in her youth. She actually started started her book writing on the subject of etiquette at the age of 49 and was a single mother at that point too. She had been divorced. Fabulously scandalous divorce story. I'll let those who are interested go seek out her biography to get it. But big scandalous divorce and she never remarried. She became an independent working woman, mother of two. And I think she really found a lot of value in that life. She found she loved working and I get very excited by that, especially when her whole story of fame and fortune came in the second half of her life. I find that very encouraging.

[Jean Chatsky]

It's very inspiring.

[Lizzie Post]

It is. And there were lots of other etiquette experts out at that Time. It was a very popular subject to write on in the 1920s. And Emily's work really resonated because her etiquette was so based in practicality that while it showed how elite life might be, it also talked about how to deliver that life when you didn't have the budget. You know, how do you make someone feel welcome in your home when you don't have a butler? You know, most of us today don't. But she also looked to youth culture for the etiquette of the day. And so she was really open to the idea that etiquette, traditions, and the manners that we have change over time, and that we need to pay attention to that and respect that rather than resist against it. So it allowed us to carry on a business five generations later. And I'm very excited to be here talking about it still today.

[Jean Chatsky]

That's amazing. I was saying at the top of the show business etiquette, boy, it feels more confusing than I think it's ever felt. Why do you think that is? And how much of it has to do with generational differences? How much is changing work cultures? How much is left over from the pandemic, or even just how people define professionalism today?

[Lizzie Post]

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. They are all impacting how we see business today, Even the work life balance. I mean, today, parents are given so much more leeway, thank goodness, than they used to be given in terms of that nine to five time frame that so many of us operate within. And I think it's really interesting to see how tech culture and its casual environments or environments that encouraged fun and spontaneity, like, gave room for that. You know, you could go play ping pong for a while and come up with that brilliant idea. And that was considered good. I think we've seen moments like that happen over the last 25, 30 years that have really eroded our sense of the, like, Mad Men era work schedule, where you're really devoted to your company, you're a company man, and off you go. I also think that just in general, especially millennial generation, that's my generation, have really started to question why standards are applied. Like, do I work better in that suit or am I just as good in my leggings? You know what I mean? And I think that's something that we've brought to the table and said that we can work on the go, we can work in more casual environments effectively. You mentioned the pandemic. We haven't even got to that. And that eroded so many social behaviors and norms. You have A whole generation of kids who either they were in college and weren't getting that socialization and prep for the work world, or they were in those first four years of just entering the workforce and didn't get those skills because they're doing it from home, they're doing it remotely. It's the only workplace they've ever known. So many things have changed the world of work that we are working in. And at the same time, traditional manners still really help smooth the way we're.

[Jean Chatsky]

Going to look at exactly how that is and by answering some questions from our listeners. So, you ready?

[Lizzie Post]

I'm ready.

[Jean Chatsky]

The first question we have comes from Virginia. She's wondering how to speak up when she's the only woman in the room, and she writes, hi, help. I need tips on how to engage with older male colleagues in an internal strategy meeting. We had a casual dinner and I felt really left out, especially by one of the men I know well, which is weird because. Because he usually doesn't treat me like that. I'm in my early 40s. They're mostly in their 50s and 60s. I've never met one of them face to face until now. It is frustrating being the only woman in the room. Any tips for staying confident? If I start feeling overlooked or talked.

[Lizzie Post]

Over, what do you break out those positive affirmations for yourself in terms of that feeling confident looked over before you go into the meeting or into that? There was the mention of the casual dinner the night before. But I think that it is very, very true that women are often encouraged to be invited to participate in a conversation, to wait politely, right? And wait for your moment to enter. And while we do still teach that advice, we do teach it to everybody, not just women. But I think women tend to be encouraged to wait to be invited to participate in conversation. And especially when it comes to business, as long as you aren't being rude about it. I would say get in the fray. Like, let yourself be a part of that. Don't wait to be invited. Say that great thought that you have. Use your conversational skills, your awareness of the pattern of conversation and the flow of conversation, to insert yourself in the moments when it feels right. I wouldn't just interrupt somebody halfway through what they're saying to jump in and get your point across. But I would let them finish and then I jump in. And if someone started to try to jump in with me, I'd get tough. I wouldn't let them. I just keep talking because now they're the person trying to talk over me and it doesn't always work. There can be awkward moments. I am not promising perfection, but I think you need to be your own advocate in this moment. Later on you might be able to have discussions with some, someone like that male colleague who you thought would have known better and treated you differently or treats you differently in non group situations about how you've noticed a trend where if you're trying and you're still getting kind of tamped down in the converse there, people are dismissing you. Now it's time to start getting some allies and if it gets really bad, it is time to go talk to a manager.

[Jean Chatsky]

Often in these scenarios, when you do chime in with your brilliant idea, a guy in the room grabs credit for it. How do you handle that part of the equation?

[Lizzie Post]

I think making it personal can be, can, can work in that particular situation. So I've been thinking about this. Not, oh, there's an idea about this, so take credit for it, make it your own. You know, there's been something I've been working on or oh, Jeff and I were talking about this and I was telling him. But take credit for the ideas and the thoughts that you come up with. They're probably not the only ones in the room. So you have to remember you might have been thinking it and Jeff might have also been thinking it. But don't let it be the situation where you put the idea out there and then it's easy for someone else to claim. So if you can speak from your perspective, I think that helps.

[Jean Chatsky]

That's a really, really valuable piece of advice because I think sometimes, and I'm guilty of this myself, I'll throw an idea out in a meeting, but I won't, I won't claim it, at least, at least not initially. And if we can train ourselves to actually just use those I words from the get go, it's a lot harder to get stepped on. So I think that's one, I think that's one to sort of memorize and practice a little bit. Our next question is from an anonymous listener. She writes, I'm in the final round of a new job opportunity, which has the same job expectations, a similar title, but much more money, which is exciting. However, I love my current company, so I wasn't necessarily looking to leave until I realized I was underpaid. The new company is a well known management consulting firm, so I'm worried the bigger paycheck may come with a more stressful work environment. In a perfect world, I'd rather leverage the offer for more pay at my current job. I know that you have to be willing to leave if you try to leverage, which I am. But I'd love to try to work something out first. It's a little sticky because six months ago, my current job made a big to do and gave me a $20,000 raise and promotion, which, while nice, hasn't felt particularly impactful to our household. However, this new offer is crazy money. It's $80,000 more. But I don't even know where to begin with negotiating with my current job. On the surface, it seems like such a big difference that they might not even entertain another bump. Is meeting in the middle even way too aggressive? Will I burn bridges or come across as ungrateful if I bring this up?

[Lizzie Post]

It's a tough one. But I also see a really clear path through for your listener, and that's the. That you have all these wonderful feelings about the bump you were already given, the environment that you work in. Lean into that when you have this conversation. And I do think you should have this conversation with them. If it's enough of an offer that you are actually considering leaving, if you're really considering going, if that's a true statement for you, I would have the conversation with them. And I would say, listen, guys, I really love our company. I love working with our team. I love these things about it. I am very grateful for the recent promotion and raise that I received. And at the same time, I have been approached with another offer. And it was such a big offer that I feel I have to consider it or I am really uncertain of what to do. Is there any way that you can meet this offer or is there anything that. That you would be able to do? Here's what they're proposing. Being honest about the fact that you love this place, you appreciate it, and you appreciate the raise you've been given. I think all do the things you want to do or you're worried would create a bad impression if you don't do them or they're left to assumptions. So take control of that. Tell them how you feel about them, how grateful you are, how much you appreciate it, and that this other offer has come unexpectedly into your life.

[Jean Chatsky]

And.

[Lizzie Post]

And you are. You're really thinking about it, or you're torn, or you would. You would prefer to stay here, but because of the money, you do have to think about it realistically and practically.

[Jean Chatsky]

Yeah. And I find. And I've been in this situation as a boss when. When employees have gotten offers that have just been so high that we either couldn't or wouldn't match them. I think if you, you know, for my family's sake, I need to consider this always is a, is a very, very nice way to put it. I don't know if I would, I don't think I would come right out and suggest meeting in the middle. I think you undercut your opportunity to get all the money if you do that.

[Lizzie Post]

I think that's a great suggestion.

[Jean Chatsky]

Yeah.

[Lizzie Post]

Unless you're so aware of their budget that you really know they can't. Maybe. But with you, it's like, don't, don't let them be the ones to take that portion off the table. Don't do it for yourself.

[Jean Chatsky]

Yeah. All right, we've got a couple more questions before we get there. A quick word from our sponsors, but don't go anywhere.

[Hailey]

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[Jean Chatsky]

We are back with Lizzie Post, author of the new book Emily Post's Business Etiquette. All right, our next question comes from another anonymous listener who's wondering how to change the way her managers see her at work. She writes, I've been in my job about three years and honestly, the environment is toxic. I was finally offered a position at a different agency with better benefits but a slight payup around $2,000. After all is said and done, I know it's small, but I'm still hesitating. I have tried everything to make things work at my current job, but my managers are overly personal. They constantly say they see me like a daughter, which I have firmly pushed back on. I want to leave professional professionally without burning bridges. But is there anything else I can do to help them see me as a colleague, not a child? Is there any way I can change their thinking so I don't have to leave and take a pay cut? How do I handle this? Oh my gosh, I relate to this question. So I do because I think particularly for people who are young and have been at places for a while, maybe it was your first or second job out of school. You stay for a while and yeah, they still think about you as that 22 year old who entered. You don't. I think it's very, very rare to be able to grow up at a company.

[Lizzie Post]

Try working with your dad, your sister, your mother, your cousin and your aunt and your other aunt. Oh my good. And a family friend. It was really tough. I think sometimes they even still think I'm that 20 year old writing that book on life being independent. But this can happen. My concern here is that our listener's telling us that she has already done everything. If you're telling me you've done everything, you're usually beyond the point of asking this question to anybody hoping to get an answer of yeah, stay where you are, work on it. The things I would tell you to do are the things of addressing the issue of treated like a daughter, you know, directly. And when someone says that to you, it is okay to say, I really appreciate the sentiment behind that. However, I am really going to ask that you not think of me as a daughter at work as it does change the dynamic that we have and this is a professional setting. It's okay. For you to stand up for that, to not take on an identity that you don't want associated with you at work. And I think it's important to address that. But in doing so, it's nice to acknowledge the kind and thoughtful sentiment that the person is trying to get across. They're missing the mark and that's not great. But you can still dissect those two things apart and appreciate the closeness that they feel with you and say that you just would rather feel it on a peer to peer level. So if you want to give that a go again, go for it. But if you've already been doing these things, things, it's time to move on. Then if you're really this upset about.

[Jean Chatsky]

How it feels, honestly, I mean, I. The slight pay cut, I get it, right? The $2,000. It. It just, it hurts to take any pay cut at all. But the word toxic in the very first line of this letter means get out of there and, and go into this new job if the pay is not where you want it to be. Ask them if you can, and you've tried to budget, which I'm sure you have, ask them if you can renegotiate in six months. Yeah, right. Set a date and stick to it.

[Lizzie Post]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[Jean Chatsky]

All right, last questions from Holly. Actually, this is not the last question, Lizzy, because I've got one of my own.

[Lizzie Post]

A surprise.

[Jean Chatsky]

A surprise. But okay, next question from Holly. Hi, Jean and Lizzie. I'm gainfully employed and overall and happy with the company I work with. But lately I felt a little overwhelmed with work and anxious about having to eventually return to the office. I've been looking for remote jobs and noticed a few companies that offer unlimited pto. So how does unlimited paid time off really work in practice? Can I truly take off as many days as I want? And if not, what's the limit? I'm worried I'd feel guilty even asking for the time. If it was longer than two weeks or got past a second certain number of days. Help. I think unlimited PTO is a trap. I'm just going to put it out there. I don't have it at my company and I think it's a trap.

[Lizzie Post]

From a managerial perspective. Absolutely. We also don't have it at Emily Post. We also only have like two full time employees. But this one, while I can't speak to the PTO as much, there was comments about coming back to work and that feeling of returning to work and being uncertain about that. This is something we are getting hit with in the Etiquette industry all the time. Right now, people are really unsure about their behavior in the work environment, in that office setting. And the fun thing about this conversation is that just because the pandemic changed a lot of stuff, it did not actually change our manners in this department that much. Starting each day by greeting your coworkers, making sure that you've, you know, made face to face contact with your team or the people that you do see daily and giving them a good greeting and acknowledging them in the morning. Same with leaving, actually saying goodbye at the end of the day, making sure that you're being appropriate about your availability. So if you have a door to your office, making sure you open the door when you're no longer on a call that needs to be private, making sure you close it when you do need that privacy for a conversation or for getting some work done. Using our calendars effectively, clear communication is very kind. Our calendars are nothing short of communication tools like being clear with them. Making sure that you're accepting appointments and showing up for what you need to be showing up for on time, being punctual. These are all classic manners. I am not saying anything that you have not heard throughout your entire scholastic and professional life. And it's all going to come back as soon as you start stepping through that door again.

[Jean Chatsky]

Yeah. Yeah. And I actually think the people that I know, even the young people that I know that have gone back to the office hybrid or even full time, are actually enjoying being around other people again.

[Lizzie Post]

Socializing. It's like it's real. But will you tell me more about the pto? And you had said you don't. From a managerial perspective, you don't think the people. PTO unlimited is a good time. How would you advise an employee to use it?

[Jean Chatsky]

I think you much like the advice that we once got to sort of dress for the job that you want of that advice. Yeah. I mean, I think you actually look at the people at the company who have the positions that you want and how they're handling it, and you follow their lead. Right. And if it. Because even when it's unlimited, quote unquote, every organization has standards that are set, that are accepted. And it's when you try to operate outside the lines of what the company hasn't stated is acceptable, but clearly believes is acceptable.

[Lizzie Post]

Yeah.

[Jean Chatsky]

You're gonna get yourself in trouble.

[Lizzie Post]

Yeah. I love that advice. Sorry, I'm gonna have to keep, like, taking that one, putting it in my back pocket.

[Jean Chatsky]

All right, here's my question, Lizzie. And it came out of a Washington Post story, you can now hire somebody to quit your job for you for $350.

[Lizzie Post]

Really?

[Jean Chatsky]

You can if you don't want it. If you are just, you don't have, you don't have the mojo to go in and quit your job yourself, you can pay somebody to do it for you. What do you think about this?

[Lizzie Post]

My very first thought is that's a job that's going to get taken away by AI so fast. It's not even going to last on the market. Like, that's going to be like we are all going to have our little AI right at your. I didn't think about it before and I absolutely think that is something that'll just start that when you're ready, you will have your AI write your resignation letter and send it in for you. Why that's terribly hard, I don't know. I think if you're ready to leave, either because you're angry, frustrated, fed up, or it's one of these toxic environments that we've been talking about, you usually feel pretty good about doing it when it's a group you're closer with. And maybe you're leaving because you're family is moving to a different area or something else that's a little less in your control. Usually you want to make that connection with somebody else. So you wouldn't hire someone to do it. This is like, are we going to start hiring people to make our phone calls for us? Because I know there's stuff about like the upcoming generations are like terrified of the telephone. I'll be curious where it ends and where we end up really encouraging ourselves to be responsible and do things in person and make the connection, it's going to drive the value of that way up.

[Jean Chatsky]

I think if I think so too. And I actually think that the quitting of a job and the way that you quit a job is an opportunity to make a really good last impression.

[Lizzie Post]

Yes, it is. It absolutely is. And I think the more we flex these muscles, the stronger and easier things like this get. And so I think if you're not afraid of it, it's like you just, first time you do it, it might feel a little awkward. Second, third time, you're, you're a pro.

[Jean Chatsky]

You know, Lizzie, this was so much fun. I hope you'll come back and do it again.

[Lizzie Post]

I would love to.

[Jean Chatsky]

Oh my gosh. For our listeners, if you want to dig even deeper into modern business etiquette, grab a copy of Lizzie's new book. It's called Emily Post's Business etiquette. It is packed with useful advice for every stage of your career. And of course, thanks to all of you who sent in questions. Please keep them coming. Lizzy, what a pleasure. Thank you.

[Lizzie Post]

Jean. Thank you so much. Have a great day.

[Jean Chatsky]

You as well. And thanks for listening everybody. We'll see you next time. If you love today's episode, please take a moment to leave us a five star star review on Apple Podcast. Your feedback means the world to me. And if you're ready to keep the Money conversation going, HerMoney has three amazing programs designed to help you feel more confident and in control of your money. There's Finance Fix. It's our four week coaching program that helps you rethink your spending, find hidden savings, and make small, smarter choices for the future. Our Pre Retirement program runs for six weeks and walks you through building a retirement strategy that's personalized for your next chapter. Finally, there's Investing Fix, our investing club for women. It meets every other week on Zoom. It is a supportive space to learn, ask questions, grow your your investing confidence, and build your portfolio. And your first month is absolutely free. These programs are truly helping level the playing field for women financially. I'd love for you to join us. Her Money is produced by Haley Pascalides and our music is provided by Video Helper. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk soon.