Jean Chatsky (4:10)

Dinner.

Jean Chatsky (4:10)

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Jean Chatsky (4:32)

Veronica and Ann, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here with me today.

Veronica Dagger (4:38)

Thanks for having me.

Jean Chatsky (4:39)

Absolutely. It is no secret around my office that I have been obsessed with this series that you're writing. I think that these slices of, of life into the experience of real retirees has just been really eye opening because it's giving us a taste of what it's like to rely on Social Security to retire with a million dollars or two million dollars or five, five million dollars or a half a million dollars. So I guess my first question is, financially speaking, what do you see working for people versus not working for people? Ann, let me start with you.

Ann Tergeson (5:22)

Yeah.

Veronica Dagger (5:23)

So a lot of people don't spend, spend with, don't spend within their means. They spend less and you know, for better or worse, that's kind of what happens. Because people don't know how long they're going to live. They're a little bit reluctant to spend, you know, as much as, as the 4% rule says, or I think also a lot of people that we speak to sort of paradoxically the people who have less money saved, you know, they have good reason to, to, to spend lower than they're able to because they, you know, they really just don't have a high margin for error in their nest egg. The people who save a lot have like, sort of like very well ingrained savings habits that they find hard to break. So they tend to spend less than they could as well. So anyway, I think, I think that actually from a financial perspective, that can really work for people just because I think it gives them, it pinches their lifestyle a little bit, but it also gives them sort of the reassurance that they need to not be anxious all the time about money and to relax a little bit and to think about how they can really fulfill themselves in retirement. So I think those things can really help.

Jean Chatsky (6:34)

Veronica, as you've looked at these different asset bases, what have you noticed?

Ann Tergeson (6:39)

Well, you know, I. Different asset bases play a big part. Geography also plays a big part. Some folks we spoke to live outside of the US they decided to retire abroad in certain cases. Some of those folks were having a really tough time making their retirement work in the US they didn't have enough money. They were afraid their dollars weren't going to stretch through the entirety of their retirement. Yet they moved abroad to some place like Portugal or Spain, and all of a sudden they were in a much better financial situation. So retirees who are able to adapt and maybe that means not necessarily staying in the same town you've lived in your whole life can help your finances if you're willing to make that move. It's not for everybody. So that's something that really stood out to me, that willingness to have a little wanderlust, as in your retirement, even.

Veronica Dagger (7:36)

Within the US that can be, that can be beneficial. Like remember that story we wrote where everybody seemed to be moving to North Carolina from like New York and they, they saved so much money.

Ann Tergeson (7:46)

Totally. Yeah.

Jean Chatsky (7:47)

It's so funny. There was a story that I was following for a while. People were moving to upstate New York for the very same reason. Right. You find these little pockets of the country where things seem to be a little bit more affordable. It' also essential, aside from being financially secure, for people to feel purposeful for them to feel fulfilled in retirement. In your reporting on these real life experiences, how do you think that money factors into that happiness that people feel? And have you seen any sort of commonalities that make it more likely that people will be able to enjoy this stretch of their lives?

Ann Tergeson (8:27)

Veronica, of course, the more money you have the more opportunities you have to do fun things like travel or donate to your favorite charities or give to the grandkids or get the best health care possible. All those things can help enhance and in the case of healthcare, might prolong your retirement. And all those things are positive for folks, especially of more means. But that doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a ton of money to have a happy retirement. I think that's one of the big themes in the series that learned and a lot of people have resonated with people living on Social Security alone. Yes, they have their challenges and sacrifices they have to make, but they're also finding meaning and happiness in defining what makes them their retirement work for them. Whether that's time with like minded people who also like to play the guitar or like to play chess or volunteer or meet for potlucks. It's how you define what matters to you in retirement is what's going to make you happy. I think another thing we learn is that there's not a set template for retirement anymore. I mean, growing up, I think I remember seeing so many ads about, you know, retirement meant spending your day on the golf course and yeah, a few people you interviewed golf, but that isn't the only model out there. There's so much variety and there is options at various income levels. You just have to find what you're passionate about, find the thing that's going to make you sing in retirement.

Jean Chatsky (10:02)

I find the variety both inspiring and also kind of daunting. The fact that there are so many different roads that you can take, it's almost like having too many choices and it's hard sometimes, I would imagine to winnow them down. Has that been a challenge for people.

Jean Chatsky (10:23)

That you've interviewed, Ann? And if, if not, what are the.

Jean Chatsky (10:26)

Biggest challenges that you've retirees facing?

Veronica Dagger (10:30)

Well, you mean in terms of winnowing down the options of what they want to do, you know, how to figure out how to spend your time kind of.

Jean Chatsky (10:37)

Well, you know, in doing a little me search, like I think that will be a challenge for me. But in fact, I'm wondering what are the biggest challenges that you've seen across the landscape?

Veronica Dagger (10:49)

So I mean there's certainly financial challenges that people face. You know, we saw that more so on the level of people who are living on Social Security alone, they, they live with a level of insecurity and anxiety. I mean they, they often come up with some very interesting solutions. But there are the financial challenges and I think also just like managing your money in a, in A, in a smart way that's going to help you make it last. I mean, sometimes people are reluctant to do things that are going to cause their balance to go down. They're, they're very reluctant to buy annuities. They're very reluctant to, like, maybe put off Social Security longer or even to do Roth conversions because that causes their balance to go down. So those are challenges. And I do think it's very challenging for some people, people who've been very focused on their, their jobs, their careers, maybe they love what they do. And I myself am one of these people where, you know, you, you sort of think to yourself, well, what in the world would. Would I do if I wasn't working? You know, who would I be? And I think especially that who would I be can be very daunting for people. So there's a, I think there's a tendency to just continue holding on to the, the job, the career, the, the rung on the career ladder for, for, for certain types of people. And that, that can be, that can be good or, you know, that can be something that people end up regretting.

Ann Tergeson (12:03)

And if I can add to that, I think relationships also change. From what I've heard from retirees, your relationship, if you have a spouse, your relationship with their spouse changes. If you, you retired and they did, or if all of a sudden you're both all day, that can be a challenge for some people I know, some executives I've spoken to say, you know, they're so used to having people reporting to them and responding to their emails right away, and all of a sudden nobody's asking for their, their orders. No one's asking for their opinion anymore. And so that can be a challenge for some folks as well. Adjusting to this, this new reality that maybe you're not the most quote, unquote, important person in the room anymore.

Jean Chatsky (12:49)

Yeah, you throw, you throw a text out to your friend group or your book club or your, your neighbors, and they don't feel as pressed to get back to you within the next three minutes. And I want to pick up on the thread that you started about spending down and how difficult that this may be. A recent analysis from the alliance for Lifetime Income found that even when people can easily afford it, many retirees are reluctant to spend their savings to enhance their lifestyle. They're more likely to rely on lifetime income sources, things like Social Security, pensions, if they have them, annuities, if they have them, than they will on things like withdrawing from their IRAs and retirement accounts, often until they're forced to. It sounds like this tracks with your reporting. I'm wondering why you think it is.

Veronica Dagger (13:49)

People just, you know, throughout they've had careers, for 34 years, they've had paychecks. You know, I think there's a certain sense of security in that they understand how, you know, you have income coming in and you have your expenses, and you try to match those. And so I think that's what people gravitate to. The idea of having this big pot of money that you have to figure out yourself how to make last is quite daunting. And I think, you know, I've seen the research, too, from other sources as well, that people are very reluctant to spend their big nest eggs. I mean, you know, some people who haven't saved a lot view those nest eggs, and I think quite rightly so, as an emergency fund. So there's that kind of pressure for some people. Um, and, you know, even people who've saved a lot more, they tend to gravitate towards not spending as much as they could. You know, it could be for that reason that they're very, like, they're very successful savers, and they're just. They're reluctant to give up that frugality that they. That they had, even if they could actually afford a lifestyle increase in retirement. You know, a lot of people also are saving for their children. They want to leave them money.

Jean Chatsky (14:56)

So, yeah. Veronica, do you find that there's a thread of worry about the next generation?

Ann Tergeson (15:03)

For sure, absolutely. Wanting this idea of wanting to provide for the next generation, as Ann said, wanting to live, leave some sort of inheritance. We're definitely seeing this track with our reporting on home equity. Ann and I recently wrote a story about that and how many people, and many of them are boomers and people who are older, who have a lot of home equity and don't want to tap that for various reasons. And one of the reasons is they see their home as shelter, a place of security. And the idea of tapping into that huge bundle of wealth is just against a lot of what they believe in. It's also not exactly cheap and easy to tap into, but that mentality of, I'd rather feel safe and preserve what I have and maybe leave some to the next generation, who I know has a tougher time out there generally than I did when I was a kid. Let me think about that. And that is something that we've heard generally throughout our reporting.

Jean Chatsky (16:01)

Sticking with you for a second, Veronica. When you bring up the issues of feeling safe, feeling secure, having the roof over Your head. There's a lot of that that runs very strongly through women. And I know that your reporting has focused a great deal on how women are different than men in approaching money in general. How have you found the female retirees different than the male retirees in approaching these issues?

Ann Tergeson (16:30)

One of our series focused on single women, and that one was a great story. We love doing that story because we spoke to women of all different income levels and heard about some of the challenges. And women, as you know, they live longer, they tend to make less, they often have caregiving responsibilities, and if they're single, they don't have a partner to rely on. And that can be a challenge. And so just making that money last and being the backstop for all of your finances, it's all on you if you're a single woman. And that can be tricky if you're living longer or if you don't have kids to help you out, whether it's with your own care, when you need it. So there's some challenges some of those single women face and that they're worried about. At the same time, there's plenty of upside to it as well. You have the freedom to spend your money as you wish. You have the freedom to come and go and travel to the places you want to go to and go try dinner at the restaurant you wanted to try and don't have to get buy in from someone else. Financially, there's pros and cons. Socially there is as well. It can be tough to be a single person within a single woman within a coupled world. Some of the people told us, I think some of the stereotypes about women being conservative investors, overall, I don't think those are necessarily true anymore. We spoke to some people who were almost 100% in stocks and were very much into investing, and we're very much into watching the stock market. This general idea out there that women aren't involved in finances, don't care about their money, or are confused by it, I think these are old stereotypes and some of our reporting has certainly showed that.

Jean Chatsky (18:05)

Yeah, I agree with you. I think, you know, I run an investing club for several hundred women and I am seeing the layers of risk intolerance really fall away for women at all age levels, which I think is really encouraging. One of the things that's not super encouraging and came up in a story that you wrote recently about the fact that more people are claiming Social Security early because they're concerned about the future of the program. Can you tell us what you found in reporting this story? How deep is this fear running? And do you think we can do anything to stop it?

Veronica Dagger (18:50)

Well, so I think that this is a common thing. I mean, I've heard for years and years, especially from younger people, millennials, Gen Xers, whatever, who say, you know, well, yes, if Social Security is there for me, you know, I'll have X amount, right. But there's this sort of, like always, this tendency to think, well, it's just not going to be there. And it turns out that what happens is that when Social Security is in the news in a negative way, which is often the case every year when the Social Security trust fund trustees announce, you know, at some point in X number of years, the trust fund will be depleted. You know, when there's negative news like that, people tend to get very anxious about the program and they tend to want to claim their benefits sooner. There is a sort of this attitude of like, let me run and grab that now while it's still there. I mean, first of all, a lot of people misunderstand that when the trust fund is dependent, depleted, which I think is projected for something like 2033, the program is still going to be able to finance about 80% of benefits. You know, the money that comes in from the payroll tax will finance about 80% of the benefits. Also, we've been here before, and I mean, Congress would have to be sort of suicidal to, you know, to. To allow the trust fund to actually go bust without some kind of plan in place to provide, you know, full benefits to people who are already retired. So I think people's fears are very common, and I think they are tied to negative news about the program. So exacerbating that was some of the news that. That came out early this year about the Social Security Administration and some of the sort of reports of chaos within the administration, wanting to get rid of a lot of employees quickly. DOGE came in and there was reports that people at DOGE had access to some of the data. And anyway, it's kind of unclear what's what, but there was just a lot of reporting about a lot of things that were very tumultuous. And I think that fed into the anxiety that people naturally have about the financing of Social Security. You know, I wish there was something that could be done. You know, I think news reporters to be clearer about trust fund depletion does not mean that all is lost, that you're going to lose 100% of your benefit. It's an 80% loss. And I think almost everybody who follows politics in this country believes that Congress will come up with a solution before that depletion occurs, perhaps only at the 11th hour, because that tends to be what happens. So it's hard to get people to trust that because you're kind of saying, well, you just have to ride it out and don't grab your benefits early just because of this fear. You should think about what makes sense for you financially and have some kind of trust that Congress will actually act to shore up the program.

Jean Chatsky (21:42)

Our colleague Jason Fichtner, who is with the Bipartisan Policy Institute, but also runs the Retirement Income Institute that does a lot of research on this topic, is a big fan of changing the language so that instead of saying you're claiming your benefits early, you would say you're claiming your minimum benefits. And his argument is, who wouldn't want to claim early? I don't want to be late for my Social Security. But that language just gets us into trouble every single time. One of your more recent profiles featured people retiring with a pension. Now that's something that we know has been becoming more and more rare as the years go on. Veronica, what's different for these folks?

Ann Tergeson (22:30)

Well, it's nice if you have one. It gives you a whole level of sleep well at night factor. Folks feel a lot more secure. They feel comforted by the fact that they know they're going to have a certain amount of money coming in each month, and that gives them the reassurance to feel that they'll be able to make their bills, they'll be able to make their budget. Generally, they feel that that guarantee gives them options to some of them don't save as much in any other sort of retirement account because they have that. And so they use their money in other ways. Also, it gives an opportunity for them to not have to look at the stock market every day. I mean, not that all our retirees do that by any means, but they're not as focused on, you know, our stocks up, our stocks down, because is my nest egg going to last? Another benefit they have is some of these pensions are indexed for inflation, and so that helps them when they're thinking about rising costs that so many of us have dealt with. So it's a real advantage. Obviously, they worked hard for it, but it to have that sense of security really helps people sleep well at night.

Jean Chatsky (23:41)

You brought up annuities earlier, Ann, and for people who don't retire with a pension, annuities can be used as a, as an additional source of income. You mentioned earlier that sometimes people hesitate to buy them, but wrote recently about the uptick in annuity sales that was prompted by rising interest rates. Where do you think that we are with attitudes on annuities? What do you see in your reporting? People. People looking for and on what are they basing their decisions?

Veronica Dagger (24:20)

I don't really cover annuities that closely. I do think that rising interest rates are a big deal in terms of people buying certain types of annuities and probably immediate annuities, deferred annuities, and the type of annuities that I focused on in that article, which are more like kind of CDs, that they'll have like a ten year period or an eight year period or whatever and they offer you an income. And I think those are very attractive to people. And typically they'll offer like a margin above what you can get from sort of more liquid types of cash, like investments or bonds or whatever. There is a lot of research that shows when you talk about framing of, you know, Social Security benefits, claiming early, being claiming your minimum benefit, it works in a similar way with annuities. If you say annuities, a lot of people are thinking, well, I don't want those because they, there are these negative features that they think of which is you have to hand your money over to the insurance company and you know, if you get hit by a bus, your children get nothing. Well, okay, that's, that can be true for an annuity in its purest form. But a lot of annuities offer, you know, ways to get death benefits, et cetera. But if you frame it differently as lifetime income, what you hear is that people are very interested in that and they very much want that. And so, you know, we've seen 401k plans here and there introducing annuities too, because, you know, they want to provide people with that lifetime income that they very much want. So I think it's. Some of it depends on how it's framed as to the degree to which people are interested.

Jean Chatsky (25:52)

Yeah, I agree. And I think that the inroads that are being made in 401k plans thanks to the secure act, the second secure act, first and second, actually are just making them more a part of the conversation. We're gaining a greater level of understanding of what these products are and, and how they work and who they suit and who they don't, which is important when we're talking about any financial product, regardless of your financial situation. And I know that you have covered really the landscape with this amazing series of stories. The economic volatility that we have seen in recent months is enough to make pretty much anyone lose sleep. And in light of that volatility, people may be tempted to make rash decisions with their investments the closer you get to retirement. Veronica, what's the playbook for people so that they can both sleep at night and have some confidence that they are going to be able to weather the storm.

Ann Tergeson (26:58)

Having a plan helps and knowing what you're invested in, why you're invested in those things, and also what your timeframe is. Sometimes having a financial advisor can help as well because it gives you an outside person to run ideas against. And that person can be a buffer to stop you from doing something rash when there is a really bad day in the market. Generally, not checking your investments on a daily basis is always a good idea too. And then if you are getting close to retirement, some advisors will say, if you're retiring like this year, they'll say, oh, maybe keep two or three years of, of expenses in cash. That way you're not so dependent on the market really depends on your situation. So things like that can help you stay focused and calm and also understand that retirement, it isn't just this hard break anymore. For so many people, retirement can mean maybe you're retiring from your 9 to 5 job, but maybe you're still consulting on the side, maybe you're taking on a part time job, maybe you're finding other streams of income like house hacking. There's other options for you. And there doesn't necessarily mean just because you're retiring. Retiring means you're out of the game, so to speak. And there's other ways to make yourself feel a bit more secure.

Jean Chatsky (28:17)

I want to be a house hacker in my next life. I'm just saying. We like to wrap up these discussions by asking our guests to share their top three tips for retirement. I'd like to do it a little bit differently here. You've written about the financial regrets of people who are well into this phase of their lives. What would you say each of you are the top regrets that you have heard from people so that maybe those who are watching can do it a little bit differently. And Veronica, I'll start with you.

Ann Tergeson (28:49)

One of the big regrets that surprised me from some of our people we've profiled and other stories we've written is this idea of saving too much. Which it sounds crazy, but for some people, they'll say, I realize that maybe I should have had a little bit more fun with my money. Maybe I should have spent more money. And this is obviously off. And the millionaires are saying this, I shouldn't have been so tight with my purse strings. I wish I had traveled earlier in my retirement, in my 60s and 70s, because I realized as I got older, my health wasn't the same and it wasn't as easy to travel generally. So understanding that maybe you can spend a little bit more than you think, depending on your situation, and then also having an understanding that there's different phases of retirement. Your retirement when you're on the younger side is going to look different than your retirement when you're older. Not only in terms of things that you're able to do, but also your expenses will change too. Generally when you're older, you'll probably spend more on health care. When you're younger, maybe it's a little bit more on travel. And so adapting your goals and your plans for each year, knowing that things are going to shift. So a few people said that I wish I had understand how things were going to change and that retirement isn't just a homogenous thing anymore.

Jean Chatsky (30:14)

Yeah, so true. How about you, Anne?

Veronica Dagger (30:16)

You know, I think it's sort of a cliche that, you know, people on their deathbed never say, you know, I regret that I didn't spend more time at the office. I think it's usually, you know, that people, if they have regrets, sometimes it's about relationships. And there is a kind of a very interesting body of research, mostly coming out of Harvard. There's this longstanding study at Harvard that shows that relationships are really key to happiness, at least among the cohorts that that study has looked at.

Ann Tergeson (30:44)

Over.

Veronica Dagger (30:45)

I mean, I think well, over almost 100 years. Anyway. One of my favorite conversations was, was with a guy who appeared in our most recent issue. His, his name is Jim Lee and he lives in Michigan. And he's totally interesting guy. He retired at 54 and I think was feeling the stress of his job, even though he loved it. He said, you know, when you're not bringing money in, you're laying people off. So it was. It was just getting kind of stressful. So he retired early and he hit a. First of all, he hit to Veronica's point about the importance of being resilient. He retired with about 4 mil, 4 and a half million dollars while he and his wife got divorced, which I think was. Was kind of unexpected. And so he's down to whatever $2.2 million. And so that's a decent amount of money and he hasn't had to change his plans, but having some kind of resiliency personally and Also built into your plan. He is one of those guys who saved so successfully that he lives below his means. And it's turned out to be such a good thing for that reason. But he volunteers a lot. And he told me that one of his big frustrations in retirement is that it's really hard to meet new people. It's hard to meet new friends, make new friends. And so his girlfriend just keeps encouraging him to just be in touch with people. And so what if they say no about getting together, you know, or they plead, I'm too busy, I'm too busy. Just keep trying. And that. That he's sort of adopted that attitude, which I think is a hard thing to do. You know, people always imagine if they reach out to someone, oh, well, they're not going to want to see me or whatever. Just like, don't get caught up in your head. Just make these appointments, just make these dates. He tries really hard to have lunch, you know, once or twice a week with a friend or go on a bike ride or just do something where he's social and focusing on building friendships.

Jean Chatsky (32:30)

I love that. And it reminds me of the movie We Bought a Zoo, which I don't know if you've ever seen, but Matt Damon is walking by this restaurant and he spots a beautiful girl in the window and walks in and is all fumpa, fumping all over himself, but basically said, why would somebody like you ever go out with somebody like me? And she said, why not? And that was the beginning of their life. So I've held onto that. I think it's a remarkable lesson for all sorts of endeavors and obstacles. This conversation has been fun. I've learned a lot. I hope that our listeners have as well. I'm sure that they have. For people who'd like to keep up with this incredible series that you're writing, what's the best way to do that? Well, we.

Veronica Dagger (33:22)

We do have a page at WSJ. I think if you Google our names and WSJ and in quotes, the way we retire now there's a landing pa and I think everyone in our series is supposed to be on that. I need to check and make sure our most recent one made it, but that's one way to look at the series and just flip from one to the other.

Jean Chatsky (33:42)

Fantastic. Anything else you want to point us to, Veronica?

Ann Tergeson (33:46)

Yep, and you can also find us on LinkedIn. Best way to get in touch with me is my mailing list, which there's a link right on my LinkedIn profile. Anyone can sign up for. So always happy to meet new people and make new connections.

Jean Chatsky (33:58)

Because why not? Thank you both for being here today.

Jean Chatsky (34:01)

And if you'd like more information on the work that we do at the alliance for Lifetime Income, sign up for our newsletter. There's lots of information on everything retirement. You can find more@protectedincome.org thanks for listening everybody. If you love this episode, please give us a five star review on Apple Podcasts. We always value your feedback and if you want to keep the financial conversations going, join me for a deeper dive. HerMoney has two incredible programs, finance Fix, which is designed to give you the ultimate money makeover, and Investing Fix, which is our investing club for women that meets bi weekly on Zoom. With both programs we are leveling the playing fields for women, financial confidence and power.

Jean Chatsky (34:51)

I would love to see you there.

Jean Chatsky (34:53)

Her Money is produced by Hayley Pascalides. Our music is provided by Video Helper and our show comes to you through Megaphone. Thanks for joining us and we'll talk soon.