Hidden Brain – "Escaping Perfectionism"

Host: Shankar Vedantam
Guests: Thomas Curran (psychologist, London School of Economics), Alison Pugh (sociologist, Johns Hopkins University)
Date: September 1, 2025

Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, Shankar Vedantam explores how the relentless pursuit of perfection—and the images of it broadcast across social media and modern culture—impacts our mental well-being, creativity, and relationships. Psychologist Thomas Curran shares his personal struggles and academic insights on perfectionism, its rising prevalence, and its costs. Later in the episode, sociologist Alison Pugh answers listeners’ questions about the deeper human need to feel seen and the crucial (and often invisible) connective labor underpinning so many of our interactions, especially in the face of growing technological mediation.

Part 1: The Roots and Psychology of Perfectionism

[03:24] "The Costs of Chasing Perfection"

• Societal Pressure & Illusions of Perfection

  • Shankar introduces the topic by contrasting airbrushed images of "perfect" living—on billboards and social media—with the everyday messiness of real life.
  • “We may remind ourselves that what we are seeing has been airbrushed and filtered, but the contrast still burrows into our unconscious minds.” (Shankar Vedantam, [00:59])

• Thomas Curran’s Story: From Material Lack to Academic Ambition

  • Raised in a working-class English family, Thomas acutely felt social status differences among peers, especially evident in material possessions and status symbols like cars.
  • “Cars is kind of the ultimate status symbol, right?...And that was like really crushing for me. That was really embarrassing not to be able to have one too...I sort of learned that you’ve kind of got to buy your way out of that shame in this world.” (Thomas Curran, [05:31])
  • He compensated for feelings of inferiority with intense academic striving—“an urgent need to lift myself above other people through an excessive form of striving” ([08:36]).

• Impostor Syndrome & Perfectionistic Striving

  • Curran describes the isolating experience of entering elite academic spaces—feeling perpetually behind, fueling overwork, conspicuous displays of effort, and ignoring personal well-being.
    • “I’m a bit of a perfectionist now. How many times have you heard that one?” (Thomas Curran, [11:21])

Part 2: Perfectionism: A Personal and Societal Epidemic

[13:40] Anxiety, Shame, and Breakdown Under Pressure

• Personal Breaking Point

  • Curran recounts a painful breakup, ensuing self-loathing, and a subsequent panic attack: “...that was a panic attack that comes from the bursting of the dam of this kind of suppressed anxiety that we’re just holding back…showed me that...trying to achieve, trying to prove to everybody that I was good enough was actually coming at great expense for mental health.” ([15:03])

• Perfectionism in Students ("John" as Example)

  • Many of his students at LSE exhibit distress and lack of satisfaction despite high achievement, tangled in “excessive self-imposed pressures and a deep and profound fear of failure.” (Thomas Curran, [20:54])

• Research Findings: Perfectionism Is on the Rise

  • Curran’s studies show a 40% increase in perfectionism since 1989, with the most drastic rise in "socially-prescribed" perfectionism—linked to anxiety, depression, and self-harm ([21:51], [38:34]).

• Our "Favorite Flaw"

  • “Perfectionism is something that I think in modern society is lionized, celebrated...we also think that perfectionism is what carries us forward and makes us successful. A necessary evil, so to speak.” (Thomas Curran, [22:58])
  • The ubiquitous joke in job interviews—claiming perfectionism as a "weakness"—reflects how culturally acceptable this trait has become ([23:33]).

• Key Insights and Distinctions

  • Perfectionism is not simply high standards; it's a “deficit orientation”—striving to escape feelings of deficiency, not just to pursue excellence ([24:34], [25:27]).
    • “Are you chasing success or are you fleeing failure?” (Shankar Vedantam, [25:27])
  • Perfectionists ruminate, brood, and are highly self-critical, turning even achievements into occasions for anxiety or self-doubt ([27:28]).

• Efficiency, Self-Preservation, and Self-Sabotage

  • Perfectionists struggle to work "smart"—they miss diminishing returns and sabotage themselves, especially after setbacks, even withholding effort to avoid shame (“You can’t fail at something you didn’t try.” [29:36]).
  • “There is no way you would want someone like me flying your plane.” (Thomas Curran, [32:01])

Part 3: The Three Types of Perfectionism

[32:57] Self-Oriented, Other-Oriented, and Socially-Prescribed

• Self-Oriented Perfectionism

  • Exemplified by athletes who are harshly self-critical (e.g., tennis pro Mikhail Yuzhny’s outburst).
  • “There is just simply a lack of self-compassion and a strong sense of self-loathing.” ([34:51])

• Other-Oriented Perfectionism

  • Projecting perfectionistic expectations outwards—seen in demanding parents or bosses (Amy Chua’s "Tiger Mother" as example).
  • “They tend to be quite brash. They will let you know when things haven’t gone quite to plan.” ([36:18])

• Socially-Prescribed Perfectionism

  • Most toxic and fastest rising: “A sense that everybody and all around me expects me to be perfect and they’re watching and waiting to pounce if I show any form of weakness.” ([37:39])
  • Driven by social media, competitive educational environments, workplace pressures, and parenting practices ([39:21]).

Part 4: Breaking Free from Perfectionism

[41:48] Embracing "Good Enough" and Moving Beyond Shame

• Does Perfectionism Work?

  • Curran acknowledges perfectionism drove some outward success but at significant material, relational, and psychological costs: “Yes, it looks like success, but it doesn’t feel like success.” ([42:27])
  • “Perfectionism carries a really heavy cost…” ([44:37])

• Alternatives to Perfectionism

  • Margaret Atwood, a prolific and creative writer, says, "I'm not a perfectionist. That's one clue" ([45:16]).

• The "Good Enough Mother" (Donald Winnicott)

  • The 1950s pediatrician argued that "good enough" parenting is both more realistic and more desirable for raising resilient, happy children ([47:20]).

• Practical Strategies

  • Curran recommends a daily writing/reflection practice to scrutinize perfectionistic thoughts and challenge catastrophic thinking ([49:00]):
    • “Write them down, reflect…ask yourself how realistic is this? How achievable is this? Do I actually need to do this right now? What if I don’t?”
  • Model from his grandfather: striving for excellence with care, but detaching self-worth from the outcome and validation of others (“He didn’t loiter for validation...he just took them to where they were going to live and left them there.” [50:11])

Part 5: Questions on Connection & Connective Labor (with Alison Pugh)

[54:42] "The Work of Seeing People"

• Why Being Seen Matters

  • Pugh defines 'connective labor' as the work of truly seeing and being present for another, fundamental across many professions and daily life ([59:08]).
  • “To be seen by another human being is...profound...even in sales, when you, the salesperson, effectively identify someone’s problems or their perspective, it is much more persuasive.” ([61:38])

• Effects of Disconnection

  • The lack of being seen or misrecognition is keenly felt, especially in moments of need or vulnerability ([62:41]).

• Connective Labor Across Cultures and Contexts

  • Pugh emphasizes humility and "perspective getting" over "perspective taking," especially in cross-cultural communication ([63:27]).
  • Opt for tentativeness and listening first; take the risk of connection but be open to correction ([65:01]).
    • “It’s like a loss of innocence...” (Alison Pugh, [65:46])

• Handling Difficult Encounters and Burnout

  • When encountering need (e.g., homelessness), simple acknowledgment can offer dignity even without material help ([68:39]).
  • For professionals (like teachers or therapists) facing compassion fatigue, support structures like "sounding boards" are crucial to sustain emotional labor ([77:10]).
    • “It’s not that we don’t need rain. It’s that we need the working conditions that enable the rain to be restorative.” (Alison Pugh, [79:52])

• Connective Labor and Authenticity

  • Authenticity doesn't require intense emotional investment: “You can still convey to someone that they are a human being and that they deserve to be heard and listened to. Without that.” ([82:21])

• Mediating Between Conflicting Parties

  • For go-betweens, the key is seeing both sides fully, even if they disagree, without necessarily forcing agreement ([85:03]).

Part 6: Technology and the Future of Connection

[92:31] "Can a Machine See You?"

• The Cost of Remote Work and Measurement Culture

  • Digital mediation (e.g., therapy on Zoom) is possible but more exhausting and less sustaining than physical co-presence ([92:31]).

• Artificial Intelligence and Emotional Labor

  • Current AI (e.g., ChatGPT) can simulate some aspects of feeling seen, but lack real human judgment and thus deep attachment ([93:59]).
    • “There’s something profound that happens between people, and we risk losing that...for society, for many people to be seen every day by different kinds of people, produces a kind of belonging that has community effects.” ([96:17])

• Risks of Technological Replacement

  • The danger of relegating connective labor to AI for the less privileged, akin to a two-tier system of care ([98:16]).
  • Automation may triage simple transactions to bots and only give human care to the most complex or well-off, risking a loss of human belonging and social cohesion.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Perfectionism is the thief of creativity. In many ways it stops us from putting things out there when they’re not quite right because we worry about how that’s going to be received.”
  — Thomas Curran ([45:40])

• “High standards really don’t have to come with insecurity. Only perfectionism grafts the two together.”
  — Thomas Curran ([51:38])

• “The power of naming what is unnamed—and that can be unnamed to you or unnamed to other people because you don’t feel like it’s safe. By naming it, you’re saying to the other person: it’s safe to say this in front of me.”
  — Alison Pugh ([101:28])

• “All I can say, from what I understand about the work that I’ve done and my own experiences, is that perfectionism carries a really heavy cost and that actually there’s plenty of evidence that we can be just as successful, if not more successful, and not carrying around the emotional baggage that we carry around with perfectionism.”
  — Thomas Curran ([45:16])

Key Timestamps

• [00:00–03:24]: Introduction to perfectionism and culture’s obsession with appearances
• [04:29–10:27]: Thomas Curran’s childhood and academic journey
• [13:40–16:27]: Curran’s personal struggles with anxiety and panic
• [19:08–21:44]: Perfectionism among students and its societal rise
• [24:05–25:57]: Defining perfectionism and distinguishing it from conscientious striving
• [32:57–38:34]: The three types of perfectionism
• [41:48–52:23]: How to escape the perfectionist trap; reflections on success and happiness
• [54:42–69:27]: Connective labor—what it is, why it matters, handling need
• [76:28–80:37]: Burnout and the need for support structures
• [92:31–102:19]: The promises and pitfalls of technology in human relationships

Takeaways

• The pursuit of perfection, far from being simply a "useful flaw," can lead to anxiety, diminished well-being, and creative paralysis.
• Perfectionism is distinct from conscientiousness or high standards; its roots lie in shame, self-doubt, and a desire for validation.
• Socially prescribed perfectionism—feeling others constantly expect flawlessness—is sharply on the rise, fueled by social media, competitive education, and cultural changes.
• Connection and feeling seen by others—whether in therapy, sales, teaching, or daily life—play a profound role in individual and societal well-being.
• "Connective labor" is both vital and undervalued, often taken for granted yet essential across all sectors.
• Technology can simulate some feelings of being "seen" but cannot replicate the deep belonging and meaning that true human connection affords.
• There are practical strategies to escape perfectionist traps—embrace "good enough," reflect honestly on standards, and seek connection for its own, imperfect sake.

Recommended For:
Anyone seeking to understand perfectionism—its roots, its costs, and how to transcend it for greater creativity and well-being; as well as those interested in how genuine human connection can be fostered and preserved in a digital, distracted world.