Hidden Brain — "How Our Brains Learn"

Host: Shankar Vedantam
Guest: Dr. Mary Helen Immordino-Yang (Psychologist & Neuroscientist, USC)
Date: August 18, 2025

Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, Shankar Vedantam and Dr. Mary Helen Immordino-Yang explore the neuroscience of engagement and learning. Why do so many students (and adults) feel disengaged in traditional educational and work settings, but come alive when immersed in topics or pursuits they find meaningful? Drawing on research and powerful personal stories, they examine how emotional engagement is at the heart of deep learning, creativity, personal development, and even resilience. Dr. Immordino-Yang explains the concept of "transcendent thinking," discusses its roots in the brain, and challenges widely held beliefs about what education should be. The episode is a passionate call to re-center the individual—that is, the learner—at the core of education.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Problem of Disengagement in Education and Life

• Ferris Bueller's Day Off classic scene (00:00–02:00) is used as a metaphor for disengaging classrooms and meetings.
• Shankar describes personal experiences of boredom in class vs. engagement in self-directed learning (03:23).
• What’s missing?: Engagement—a state of absorption, curiosity, and motivation.

Dr. Immordino-Yang’s Personal Learning Journey

• As a child, Dr. Immordino-Yang was deeply disengaged in traditional schooling; she felt school wasn’t about "learning" but "doing stuff."

  • "I can hardly describe the sense of just release on Friday afternoon, and the dread on Sunday night." (04:11)

• After a period of soft-dropping out, her parents recognized her passion for farm work, animal caretaking, and self-directed projects (04:11–05:34).

• Turning Point:

  • Switched to a private school with more engaging curricula—especially science, art, and theater.
  • Memorable project: Dissecting cow eyeballs for a science project; grandmother’s fridge surprise (05:43).
    • "But I did go on to take those eyeballs apart and really try to figure out what are these different parts? How do they relate to the model I have here and what is this role they're playing in vision?... I really thrived that year." (06:52)

• Developed a passion for woodworking and traditional boat building, fueled by real-world experiences and mentorship (07:47–09:17).

The Power of Connection and Relevance in Teaching

• As a young science teacher in a diverse school, Dr. Immordino-Yang found students became engaged when connecting abstract concepts (like evolution) to personal identity and lived experience:

  • "They realized that the reasons we are the way we are is something to do with where we come from and how we've adapted ourselves to fit into the world and to flourish in the spaces in which our ancestors came from." (09:28)

• Students brought in coffee cans with live snails—demonstrating ownership and enthusiasm for scientific discovery (11:04).

The Science of Engagement and "Transcendent Thinking"

• Dr. Immordino-Yang’s work with Antonio Damasio sought to understand engagement neurologically.

  • Breakthrough: Instead of artificial lab tasks, participants engaged deeply with two-to-five-minute real-life stories, opening a window into their emotional and cognitive processing (14:58–17:24).

• Case Study:

  • Adolescent Issela’s response to Malala Yousafzai’s story:
    • "It makes me think about my own journey in education and how I want to go to college and hopefully be a scientist someday. [But even further…] everyone everywhere should have the chance. I mean, all human beings should be able to live free and choose their life future." (17:58–21:23)

• Definition:

  • Transcendent thinking: Moving from specifics to bigger ideas—connecting personal relevance to universal principles, morality, and values.
    • "But the heart of transcendent thinking is that kids became deeply engaged with thinking about something bigger than what was directly in front of them." (21:34–22:25)

• Urban LA Study:

  • Teens exposed to crime who were able to contextualize and think beyond immediate events—even exhibiting empathy for perpetrators—showed more resilience, thicker neural development in certain brain areas, and higher reported life satisfaction (24:56–32:20).

Brain Networks of Deep Engagement

• Distinct patterns in the brain:
  • Initial outward focus (goal-directed attention) followed by a shift inward (autobiographical memory, self-reflection, daydreaming).
  • "There was a kind of active dynamic trade off between outward attention and inward reflection, being driven by emotion and that sort of seesaw tottering back and forth..." (26:43–28:41)

Transcendent Thinking, Resilience, and Mental Health

• Adolescents capable of transcendent thinking were less susceptible to traumatic stress and reported more flourishing five years on.

  • "Transcendent thinking predicts identity development in late adolescence... predicted young adult life satisfaction..." (30:40)

• Contrast with Anxiety and Depression:

  • Anxiety: Stuck outwardly.
  • Depression: Stuck inwardly.
  • Healthy transcendent thinking: Flexible shift between the two, building neural ‘muscle’ for well-being (32:36–34:16).

What Great Teachers Do Differently

• "Superstar" teachers: Studied in Los Angeles, these teachers activated robust social, emotional, and motivational brain networks when working with their real students, not just anonymous work (35:44).

  • "Excellent teachers are doing work that is deeply social and emotional... even beyond what's required to just accomplish the teaching task..." (35:44–39:14)

• Cognition & Emotion Are Inseparable:

  • "Thinking is inherently cognitive and emotional, always at the same time." (39:43)
  • Meaningful learning depends on emotional relevance; academic achievement follows from caring about ideas.

Relevance with a Capital "R"

• Example: Alternative NYC school teaching through Zeno’s Paradox.

  • Math learning begins with "big, powerful, intriguing ideas," not rote calculation.
  • A struggling student "had to learn fractions to solve the problem I had" because he was driven by passion for the big questions (43:12–46:49).

• Little r: Everyday relevance.

• Big R: Connection that shapes identity and meaning—“It feels like me to think about and understand this big, powerful idea.” (46:49)

A Copernican Revolution in Education

• The learner must be at the center, not content or curriculum.
  • "We're thinking too much about what little learning nuggets get shoved in the cart. And we forget to think about who's the horse pulling that cart." (47:12)

The Parent's and Learner's Experience

• Dr. Immordino-Yang shares her son's and daughter's K12 experiences, contrasting direct engagement with rigid compliance and grading (48:26–51:34).
  • Son’s project-driven learning on airplanes: "He went off and began studying about airplane wings... He had an amazing time."
  • Negative impact of behavior charts and compliance: "I thought school was about ideas and learning, and you're telling me it's about compliance and behavior." (48:26–51:34)

Two Styles of "Gifted" Teaching

• Review/civics teacher: Fun games, engagement through activity, but perhaps superficial.

• Algebra 2 teacher: Using math for real financial planning with families—deep engagement, personal and community relevance (52:12–55:39).

  • "At this point, the formulas for compound interest are only a means to the end. And the end is how do I help this other family...?" (54:09)

• True educational outcome:

  • "Learning is important, it's critical, but it is not the endpoint, it's the means. The endpoint is the development." (55:49–57:19)

Depth Over Breadth

• Challenge: Current systems prize memorizing as many facts as possible—but this often leads to shallow, transient learning.
• What’s crucial is developing a disposition for deep learning and expertise (57:19–60:09).
  • "If you want really deep engagement... you might actually have to cover less ground than we're covering today." (57:19)

Pushing Back on "Idealism"

• Is this approach practical, given real classroom challenges?

• Dr. Immordino-Yang argues disengagement is a system design failure, not a student failure.

  • "What if we turned it around and we invite kids back to school with big ideas, with powerful projects, with opportunities to actually make change in their community? Start there and work backwards..." (60:30)

• Nuts and bolts learning (basic skills): Still vital, but must follow from a genuine need revealed through big ideas.

  • "They need to know it. They need to feel the need. And then, yes, you have to work hard." (63:14)

Diversity, Perspective, and Open Inquiry

• Example: NYC history teacher who frames "Democracy as an Argument," forcing students to wrestle with the tension between individual and group needs throughout American history (64:21).

Making Education about the Learner’s Journey

• In Dr. Immordino-Yang’s graduate teaching, curriculum is constructed as a journey through real-world questions, stories, and evidence rather than lists of facts.

• Deep, autobiographical memory is key:

  • "You live in the living room of that disciplinary space so experientially, richly, that you then can resituate yourself...and count windows, so to speak." (68:08)

• Central truth: "Education is actually not about the things that you're teaching students. It's actually about the students themselves." (72:04)

International Perspective: Denmark’s Folk School Model

• Daughter’s experience at a Danish "EFTA" folk school: Open-ended inquiry, student agency, real-world civic engagement (Auschwitz, refugees)—and a transformative struggle for a high-achieving American student who missed the comfort of grades and assignments (75:02–82:25).

  • "Without grades, without these formalized assignments and due dates, it was the hardest academic learning she's ever done. And it was fundamental to the way in which she now understands her own role in the scholarly, scholarly world." (82:25)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the emotional dimension of thinking:

  • "Thinking is inherently cognitive and emotional, always at the same time."
    — Mary Helen Immordino-Yang (39:43)

• On what ‘big R’ relevance in learning means:

  • "Relevance with a big R is it feels like me to think about and understand this big, powerful idea."
    — Mary Helen Immordino-Yang (46:49)

• On the ultimate purpose of education:

  • "Learning is important, it's critical, but it is not the endpoint, it's the means. The endpoint is the development and we've neglected that."
    — Mary Helen Immordino-Yang (55:49)

• On transcendent thinking as mental health muscle:

  • "That is like a neural muscle that we think produces mental well being."
    — Mary Helen Immordino-Yang (34:16)

• On grades and authentic learning:

  • "She said...that's grades for me. I'm ashamed to admit that I use them to remind myself that I'm smart, that I have potential, that I've worked hard, rather than thinking about how do I decide for myself..."
    — Mary Helen Immordino-Yang, describing her daughter’s insight (80:36)

Suggested Listening Timestamps for Major Segments

• Ferris Bueller & disengagement metaphor: 00:00–03:23
• Childhood disengagement and farm learning: 04:03–05:34
• Science project (cow eyeballs): 05:34–07:47
• First experiences teaching and connecting science to students’ lives: 09:17–13:26
• Neuroscience of engagement, transcendent thinking explained: 14:58–21:23
• Urban crime, resilience, and transcendent thinking in LA teens: 22:25–32:20
• Brain networks and flexibility: 25:39–28:41
• Comparison of teaching styles/curricula: 35:44–39:14; 52:12–55:49
• Case study: Math engagement via paradox (Zeno): 43:12–46:49
• Denmark folk schools and learner agency: 75:02–82:25

Conclusion

This episode makes a compelling, neuroscience-backed case that authentic, deep learning arises not from curriculum content but from the student’s internal engagement and meaning-making. The most enduring growth emerges when learners connect skills and knowledge to their own lives, values, and social worlds. Changing education to prioritize engagement, curiosity, and transcendent thinking over rote mastery may be challenging, but as Dr. Immordino-Yang’s research and stories show, it could be the key to flourishing minds and societies.