Hidden Brain – “Love 2.0: How to Move On”
Hosted by Shankar Vedantam
Guest: Dr. Antonio Pasquale Leone, Psychologist, University of Windsor
Release Date: October 20, 2025
Overview
This Hidden Brain episode brings to a close a month-long series focused on the complexities of love—specifically what happens when love ends. Shankar Vedantam and psychologist Dr. Antonio Pasquale Leone delve into the psychology of breakups: why endings are hard, the mistakes we make when separating, and concrete strategies for truly moving on. Drawing on both research and personal stories, the episode offers insights into grief, narrative-making, closure, and self-understanding after relationships end.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
The Challenge of Endings
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Our culture gives us ample advice and stories about falling in love, but little about how to manage the emotional fallout when relationships end.
- (00:27) – Shankar: “There is much less advice about how we should think, feel and act at the end of relationships.”
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Endings are hard not just because of heartbreak, but because of the challenge in making sense of loss and our own feelings.
Personal Stories: Performing Love vs. Processing Feelings
- Dr. Leone shares a personal story from his 20s—serenading an ex from under her balcony in a grand, performative attempt to win her back:
- (06:11) – Antonio: “Looking back, it was about the performance. It wasn’t about the relationship … there wasn’t a lot of relating, actually.”
- The realization: Performance and avoidance don’t address underlying emotional needs or provide true closure.
Memorable Quote
- (07:59 – Antonio): “[My friend] firmly said to me, definitely do not tell that story.”
Poor Models for Moving On
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Common but ineffective post-breakup behaviors:
- Distracting or numbing oneself by “moving on” too quickly (e.g., rebound relationships).
- Getting stuck in obsessive rumination or anger toward an ex.
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The “un clavo saca otro clavo” ("one nail drives out another") approach, i.e., quickly replacing the old relationship, does not foster growth or understanding.
- (09:15) – Antonio: “You might get over somebody, but… you haven’t learned anything from the relationship; you haven’t changed as a person.”
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Rage and fixation (as dramatized in Marriage Story and other films) represent “blaming anger” and do not clarify one’s core needs.
- (10:49) – Antonio: “What’s really going on… it’s blaming anger, it’s rejecting anger. It’s about what I don’t want. So what’s he fighting for? That’s not so clear.”
Grief, Global Distress, and the Three Lists Technique
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After a breakup, unprocessed emotions may coalesce into "global distress”—a fog of undifferentiated, negative emotion.
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Dr. Leone’s Three Lists Exercise for emotional clarity:
- List what you have lost and will miss (good things about the relationship).
- List what you won’t miss (the bad, the annoyances, and frustrations now absent).
- List hopes and dreams that will never be realized (future plans, imagined possibilities).
- (16:18) – Antonio: “There’s all these undeclared losses, and putting up little tombstones for those things… helps make them more real and easier to let go of.”
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This approach “totals up” both positives and negatives, fostering a more balanced perspective and making letting go easier.
The Stories We Tell: Narrative Quality Matters
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How we narrate our losses affects our psychological recovery.
- “Superficial story”: Big on plot, surface events; lacks emotional depth.
- “Same old story”: Stuck in a single, maladaptive theme (“poor me,” “I’m always the victim”).
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Form matters as much as content—people who tell maladaptive stories show more depression and anxiety, regardless of the actual events.
- (19:32) – Antonio: “We could actually predict… symptom severity based on how people are telling their stories.”
Self-Reflection After Loss
- The end of a relationship is a defining moment: it’s an opportunity to choose who you are in the face of pain.
- Dr. Leone describes consciously choosing to approach a breakup as a chance to honor the relationship, not descend into bitterness.
- (21:04) – Antonio: “The way you handle the end of a relationship defines you in some way… it’s a choice point, an existential choice point.”
Closure When "Finishing the Story" Isn't Possible
Unanswered Questions & Ambiguous Loss
- In situations where it’s impossible to get answers (an ex has vanished, a parent has died, or is unreachable), closure must come from within.
- (32:42) – Antonio: “The unfinished business I have is my own. You can’t change the historical facts, but you can change quite a lot what you feel about it.”
Imagined Dialogues and Therapeutic Techniques
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Studies show that imagined dialogues (writing a letter you never send, or role-play in therapy) can be more effective for personal closure than actual conversations, especially when real dialogue isn’t possible or safe.
- (34:29) – Antonio: “Me getting over the relationship is no longer a shared project… it doesn’t have to mean the same thing to me as it does to the other person.”
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Example: Writing a letter or email not sent creates emotional clarity; speaking to an empty chair in therapy helps access and express deep feelings.
- (39:12) – Antonio: “If you need to activate emotion, and you do… one way is to imagine the other person… there’s a clarity you have in imagining a conversation.”
Case Stories
- Leone recounts using the empty chair exercise to help a client “speak” to a critical, abusive father.
- (41:45) – Antonio: “He imagines… his father expressing regret… for the client, it starts to mean something different… he decides to forgive his father but to always keep a healthy distance.”
Processing Complicated Loss and Identity Wounds
- Grief is complicated when trauma, betrayal, or self-doubt are involved.
- We may injure our sense of self and worth when relationships end—feeling “not good enough” or “a fool.”
- Leone’s own experience: a breakup where the parting remark hit a core insecurity, turning loss into an “injury to my sense of self.”
- (28:53) – Antonio: “She said to me… you’re just not good at getting stuff done. Which was, yikes, right in my soft spot.”
Honoring Relationships and Ongoing Remembrance
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Losses may be ambiguous—such as losing a loved one to dementia while their body remains present.
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Leone shares a deeply personal story of his beloved aunt, whose passing and earlier decline due to dementia required a process of “saying goodbye” multiple times.
- (44:24) – Antonio: “It’s quite hard to say goodbye to someone… when they’re sitting right there. I guess I’m not finished yet. But I still need to find a way to honor that relationship.”
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Enacting imagined dialogues (e.g., what would his aunt say if she could read the book he dedicated to her) fosters healing and continuity.
- (48:03) – (as his aunt): “Antonio, I’m really proud of you… I’m proud of how you honored the people in our family.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On Relationship Endings
- (21:04) – Antonio: “The way you handle the end of a relationship defines you in some way, or that it would define me.”
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On Imagined Dialogue and Narrative
- (39:12) – Antonio: “It’s very evocative… people need to feel their feelings, right? …There’s a clarity you have in imagining a conversation.”
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On Letting Go and Personal Choice
- (34:29) – Antonio: “Me getting over the relationship is no longer a shared project. Me deciding what it means to me—it doesn’t have to mean the same to me as it does to the other person.”
Timestamps for Important Segments
- Opening/Theme Statement – 00:00-02:17
- Antonio Pasquale Leone's Background & First Breakup Story – 03:53-07:39
- Cultural Models for Breakup Coping – 08:41-10:49
- Handling Emotion After Loss (Three Lists Exercise) – 15:06-17:22
- Narrative Trap – “Same Old Story” Problem – 17:22-19:32
- Using Breakups as Opportunities for Growth – 20:08-22:55
- When Closure Isn't Shared: Unreachable/Unresponsive Relationships – 25:32-34:19
- Therapeutic Tools: Letters, Empty Chair, Imagined Dialogues – 36:51-44:13
- Personal Anecdote: Leone’s Aunt and Unfinished Emotional Business – 44:13-48:03
Episode Tone and Style
- Warm, compassionate, often gently humorous (“I’m glad you didn’t take your wingman’s advice…”)
- Mixes personal vulnerability with clinical insight.
- Both Shankar and Antonio often use film references and personal stories to illustrate broader psychological principles.
Summary / Key Takeaways
- The experience of breakup is complex, often compounded by avoidance, rumination, or clinging to unhelpful narratives.
- Moving on requires emotional clarity—acknowledging both what has been lost and what is no longer present (including hopes and dreams).
- The stories we tell about our losses shape our healing more than the losses themselves.
- Closure doesn’t require the participation of the other person; imagined dialogues and rituals (even performed alone) can offer profound healing.
- Choosing to honor oneself and the ended relationship at the point of breakup is an act of self-definition and growth.
Episode Guests
- Dr. Antonio Pasquale Leone: Psychologist, University of Windsor, Author of “Principles of Emotion: What Works and When in Psychotherapy and Everyday Life.”
For Listeners
If you feel stuck after the end of any relationship, there’s power in consciously examining your losses and stories—and in letting go, not by seeking resolution from others, but by tending to the meanings you carry within.