Hidden Brain – "Reframing the Battle of Wills"

Host: Shankar Vedantam
Guest: Stuart Ablon, Psychologist at Harvard Medical School
Date: October 27, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores why our usual tactics for changing others’ behavior—nagging, rewarding, punishing—so often fail. Host Shankar Vedantam and psychologist Stuart Ablon dive into the science of behavior change, challenging the widely held assumption that stubbornness or lack of willpower are to blame. Instead, they unpack how skill deficits, not will deficits, often underlie problematic behaviors—and why approaches focusing on empathy and collaborative problem-solving offer much better results at home, school, work, and beyond.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ineffectiveness of Willpower Battles

• Traditional Approach Fails: Many people react to stubborn or problematic behavior by using more forceful reminders, punishments, or rewards, assuming lack of motivation is the root cause ([00:00]-[03:48]).
• Emotional Toll: This cycle breeds frustration and resentment rather than positive change.

2. Early Experiences That Shaped Ablon's Thinking

• First Encounters with Challenging Behavior: As a teen working at a psychiatric unit, Ablon’s first lesson involved restraining a volatile kid, Jason, who later sincerely apologized—highlighting remorse and a lack of control, not malice ([04:02]-[07:06]).

• Ablon on Remorse:
  “Clearly, this kid deeply regretted his behavior...as he’s explaining to me, he just can’t control.” ([07:06])

• Confronting ‘Bad Behavior’ in Correctional Facilities: Another incident with a teen inmate underscored that many aggressive acts are not premeditated, but impulsive reactions to frustration ([08:07]-[10:15]).

• Insight on Impulse Control:
  “Do you think if I was thinking, I would have done that, you moron?”
  —Inmate to Ablon ([09:02])

3. Why “Try Harder” Doesn’t Work

• Behavior ≠ Motivation: People often assume poor behavior is a sign of poor motivation, but decades of research show otherwise ([14:13]-[15:28]).

• Ross Greene’s Work: Children with explosive behavior often lack certain neurocognitive (thinking) skills, not motivation ([14:13]-[15:28]).

• “Lack of Skill, Not Will”:
  “The way I talk about it is that these kids seem to lack skill rather than will, which was a bit of a revelation…”
  —Ablon ([14:55])

4. The Role of Frustration and Blame

• Projection of Blame: When others don’t change, we’re quick to locate the problem solely in them, absolving ourselves of any role or capacity to help ([16:54]-[18:15]).
• Recognizing Triggers: Outbursts or stubbornness don’t happen in a vacuum; often, how and when we ask for a behavior change matters.

5. Underlying Skills That Impact Behavior

a. Communication

• Story of the “I Don’t Care” Teen: This child deflects questions because he needs more time to process, not because he’s being oppositional ([18:39]-[21:25]).
• Language Delays: Delays or deficits can easily be misread as defiance.

b. Working Memory and Organization

• Explanation of Working Memory: Essential for multitasking, planning, and engaging in complex conversations ([24:37]-[27:01]).
• Everyday Challenges: Difficulty with tasks like cleaning a room can be due to deficits in organization, not laziness.

c. Emotion Regulation

• Flooded by Feeling: “There’s sort of like a negative correlation between feeling and thinking, that the more we’re flooded by feeling, the less clearly we are able to think.” —Ablon ([30:31])

d. Social Thinking

• Perspective Taking & Empathy: Social skills, including empathy and reading social cues, are learned, not innate ([31:44]-[32:53]).

6. “People Do Well If They Can”

• Foundational Philosophy:
  “People do well if they can. If they could, they would. And if they’re not, let’s use what we’ve learned in the last 50 years in terms of what might be getting in their way.” —Ablon ([33:05])
• Contrast with “People Do Well If They Want To”: The willpower model leads to frustration, blame, and ineffective interventions ([33:05]-[35:06]).

7. From Power Struggles to Collaborative Solutions

Plan A, B, and C ([37:25]-[41:37])

• Plan A: Trying to impose your will to make someone comply. Rarely works and often damages relationships ([37:25]-[37:50]).
• Plan C: Dropping the expectation or “giving in.” Helps keep the peace temporarily but doesn’t address the problem or build skills ([38:42]-[39:44]).
• Plan B – Collaborative Problem Solving:
  Work together to find mutually agreeable solutions. This method builds skills, reduces conflict, and strengthens relationships ([39:48]-[41:37]).

The Three Ingredients of Plan B ([41:37]-[45:42])

1. Empathy (Ingredient 1):

   • Genuinely understand the other’s concern or viewpoint before presenting your own ([41:37]-[43:24]).
   • Use: open questions, clarifying questions, educated guessing, reflective listening, and reassurance ([43:37]).
   • Ablon: “Empathy is not agreeing or disagreeing. It is simply understanding.” ([42:13])

2. Share Your Own Concerns (Ingredient 2):

   • Present your perspective using “and” instead of “but” to avoid confrontation ([46:08]).

3. Invite the Other Person to Generate Solutions (Ingredient 3):

   • Let them take the first crack at solutions, which increases buy-in and practices problem-solving skills ([47:36]-[48:54]).
   • “When you teach a kid to ride a bike, do you hop on the bike and say, ‘All right, watch me ride.’?... No, watching someone else doesn’t help somebody practice and develop problem solving skills.” —Ablon ([48:06])

Crucial Distinction:

• If you already know the “right” solution, you’re not collaborating but manipulating—a “tricky Plan A” ([49:36]-[50:17]).

• The Power of Humility and Curiosity:
  “When we can suspend those assumptions and be really curious, we learn so much. And not only do we learn so much, but it really connects us to people.” —Ablon ([50:46])

8. Collaborative Problem Solving in Action ([52:08]-[62:14])

• Case Study – Oregon State Hospital:
  • Staff faced frequent assaults and tried Plan A (force, privileges) and Plan C (avoidance) with little success.
  • Breakthrough: A nurse used Plan B with a delusional, resistant patient. Through empathy and joint problem-solving, they agreed he would wear tinfoil under his beanie, allowing him to feel comfortable enough to attend therapy ([55:49]-[62:14]).
    • Quote:
      “Now you have a solution where—who wins there? Everybody. Who loses? Nobody. Problem solved, relationship built, challenging behavior decreased.” ([62:02])

9. Skill-building Outcomes and Broader Benefits

• Skill Growth:
  Collaborative problem solving increases children’s (and adults’) self-regulation, impulse control, and cognitive flexibility ([63:31]).
• Helpers Grow Too:
  Parents, teachers, managers who apply this method develop their own empathy, flexibility, and problem-solving skills ([64:32]-[65:30]).

10. Challenges and Misconceptions ([67:06]-[70:48])

• Not Just for “Soft” Situations:
  Even in correctional facilities, most “bad actors” were shaped by chronic stress and trauma, impacting development of key skills, not simply lacking will ([67:25]-[69:01]).
• Accountability:
  Real responsibility means solving problems so misbehavior doesn’t recur, not just suffering consequences ([69:09]).

11. The Limits of Rewards and Consequences ([71:16]-[72:54])

• What Incentives Can and Can’t Do:
  Rewards and punishments clarify expectations and provide motivation, but they don’t build skills or intrinsic motivation—sometimes even harming it ([71:16]-[72:54]).

12. A Broader Moral and Scientific Vision

• Science-Backed Compassion:
  “When I say people do well if they can, people say, well, that’s a very nice philosophy. I said, well, it may be an empathic and compassionate one, but it is also one rooted in science, in understanding the brain.” —Ablon ([73:18])
• Real-world Impact:
  Rethinking behavior and focusing on skill-building reduces suffering, saves money, and improves lives.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “People do well if they can. If they could, they would. And if they’re not, let’s use what we’ve learned in the last 50 years in terms of what might be getting in their way.”
  —Stuart Ablon ([33:05])

• “Empathy is not agreeing or disagreeing. It is simply understanding.”
  —Stuart Ablon ([42:13])

• “Listen to them really hard, really well, really effectively, and they’ll be a whole lot more likely to listen to you.”
  —Stuart Ablon ([50:46])

• “Now you have a solution where—who wins there? Everybody. Who loses? Nobody. Problem solved, relationship built, challenging behavior decreased.”
  —Stuart Ablon ([62:02])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–03:48 — Why willpower battles fail, introduction of main themes
• 04:02–07:06 — Ablon’s formative early experiences in psychiatry
• 14:13–15:28 — Discussion of skill vs. will, research with Ross Greene
• 18:39–21:25 — “I Don’t Care” story: communication challenges
• 24:37–27:01 — Working memory and executive function
• 31:44–32:53 — Social thinking skills, empathy as a skill
• 33:05 — “People do well if they can” principle
• 37:25–41:37 — Explanation of Plan A, B, and C; collaborative problem solving
• 41:37–45:42 — The three-step Plan B formula; empathy in depth
• 52:08–62:14 — Psychiatric hospital case study; Plan B in action
• 63:31–65:30 — Research on skill-building and the two-way benefits of collaborative problem solving
• 69:09–72:54 — Rethinking accountability and the limits of incentives
• 73:18–74:27 — The larger moral/scientific argument and real-world implications

Overall Tone

• Empathetic, honest, research-grounded, and practical. Both host and guest speak candidly about frustrations and failures, but with hope and actionable insight for listeners grappling with change—in themselves and others.

Takeaway

Instead of engaging in unproductive battles of will, we should reframe challenging behavior as a signal that someone is lacking crucial skills, not motivation. By shifting to empathy and collaborative problem-solving, not only do we help others change more effectively, but we also grow ourselves—and build stronger, more understanding relationships in the process.