Transcript

David Kirkpatrick (0:00)

Foreign.

Dimitri (0:09)

What'S up, everybody? Welcome to this Tech Forces segment of the Hidden Forces podcast where I speak with professionals, academics, and anyone else with a technological perspective on current events. My guest for this segment is journalist and commentator David Kirkpatrick. David is the author of the Facebook Effect and the founder of Takonomy Media, which seeks to promote conversations at the highest levels of enterprise, academia and government about the role of technology in social progress. He writes@teconomy.com, he's a contributing editor to Bloomberg Television and a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. David Kirkpatrick, welcome to Hidden Forces.

David Kirkpatrick (0:48)

Thanks Dimitri. Good to be here.

Dimitri (0:50)

It's great to have you, man. Long time no see.

David Kirkpatrick (0:52)

I know you were at the conference which just ended.

Dimitri (0:54)

How did you feel about that? How did you feel about that?

David Kirkpatrick (0:56)

Oh, feel really good about it. It was probably the best one we've ever done. We've had close to 20 conferences in total and it's the eighth time we've done that flagship conference. I don't think you even mentioned the conference in the intro, but it's the Taconomy 2017 conference just happened in Half Moon Bay, California, was from Sunday through Tuesday. And like I said, the eighth time we've done that two day flagship deep dive conference. And it was certainly one of our best, if not the best. It was really. And I feel more clear about what we're doing with it than I ever have, I'd say.

Dimitri (1:32)

What do you mean? What do you feel more clear about it?

David Kirkpatrick (1:34)

I don't know if you noticed that I began the conference by a list of things that we believe and that really kind of crystallized a new direction for us that, you know, we're not just about bringing people together. We're also about advocating for certain ideas that we, we really believe in. And we're advocates, we're not just neutral journalists. We believe there's things that businesses have to understand, businesses have to do, technologists have to do and understand, and we're not afraid to argue in favor of that.

Dimitri (2:10)

So what are those things in your.

Summary

Hidden Forces Podcast Summary

Episode Title: Where Does Authority Reside In A Networked, Artificially Intelligent World?
Host: Demetri Kofinas
Guest: David Kirkpatrick (Author of The Facebook Effect, founder of Techonomy Media)
Date: November 13, 2017

Episode Overview

In this episode, Demetri Kofinas talks with journalist and media entrepreneur David Kirkpatrick about the role and impact of technology—especially artificial intelligence and networked systems—on authority, ethics, society, and the future. The conversation draws on themes from the recent Techonomy 2017 conference, where leaders in technology, academia, and business explored ethical, political, economic, and global challenges posed by technological advancement.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Techonomy’s Evolving Mission and Values

Tech as a Force for Good—Conditional On Intent:
- David describes how Techonomy’s mission has shifted to more active advocacy for ethical use of technology.
- "Tech is a force for good when you really seek to do good, but it's not intrinsically a force for good." – David Kirkpatrick [02:12].
- Argues that as AI and other technologies become ubiquitous, the ethics of those guiding them are crucial.
Global Perspective:
- Businesses and technologists must take a global, rather than parochial, approach.
- Bringing the world's population into the economic mainstream is beneficial to all.
Technology’s Educational Role and UBI Skepticism:
- Advocates for using technology to improve education and retraining but strongly opposes the idea of universal basic income (UBI).
- "Universal basic income is an absolutely wrong-headed idea... people want the dignity of a job and meaningful life." – David Kirkpatrick [04:07].

The Role and Limitations of Technology in Society

Technology as Central Lens:
- Technology is the defining tool of humanity and the key to understanding current social dynamics.
- The pace of technological change is overwhelming, and leaders must adopt a technology-focused lens to remain relevant [05:18].
Critique of Silicon Valley Utopianism:
- Demetri raises concerns about Silicon Valley's sometimes naïve approach to problems, e.g., equating brain data transmission with "thought sharing."
- "They gloss over a bunch of assumptions... It's the same way that Ray Kurzweil talks about uploading his consciousness to a server.” – Demetri [09:22].
Brain Transparency & Ethics:
- Advances in "brain-reading" tech are coming, but their ethical and societal implications need urgent debate.
- "We're going to be able to decipher brain activity in a very thorough and ongoing way for trivially inexpensive cost in the very near future... we need to begin a policy, a strategy, a business dialogue about what it means and an ethical dialogue." – David Kirkpatrick [12:02].

Technology, Political Authority, and Social Trust

Lack of Political Tech Literacy:
- Concern that US government lags in understanding technological implications.
- "We need programmers in Congress. We need data scientists in Congress.” – David Kirkpatrick [16:01].
- Example: Mark Warner's tech background enables incisive questions for tech executives.
Regulation, Authority & Data:
- Demetri and David discuss how present business models (e.g., surveillance capitalism) corrupt social and democratic trust.
- Both advocate for systems where individuals control their own data—possibly enabled by blockchain—but acknowledge no large-scale solution exists yet [21:16].
- Europe’s data privacy regulations are viewed as forward-thinking compared to the US [23:02].
Platforms, Algorithms & Manipulation:
- The Facebook ad model is critiqued for incentivizing divisive and sensationalist content.
- "The attention... advertising is basically an attention-based business model where revenues and profits rise to the degree they can seduce the user to spend their time looking at the screen... that leads to... the promotion of fear and anger as content." – David Kirkpatrick [19:18].

Social, Economic, and Environmental Consequences

Platforms, Markets & Network Effects:
- Question of whether blockchain or alternative models can disrupt mainstream ad-driven platforms like Facebook. David is skeptical of quick disruption, pointing instead to incremental shifts in attention and new paradigms [28:18].
Climate Change & Technological Response:
- David sees smart, networked sensors (IoT) and data as ways to radically improve energy efficiency and combat climate change [34:12].
- Geoengineering is discussed as a technical possibility for climate control, but its risks, uncertainties, and potential for geopolitical conflict are highlighted (proposals include blocking solar radiation, floating reflective materials) [36:00–43:22].
- “There is no more nature. People are in control… people have already changed the atmosphere, and particularly the atmosphere and climate.” – David Kirkpatrick [37:01].
Political Correctness, Science, and Public Discourse:
- Both discuss the misuse of "science" and facts by all sides in political debate, and lament broad ignorance and dogma around topics like GMOs and vaccines [46:22].
Global Middle Class, Inequality & Technology:
- Debate about whether technological benefits reach the many or merely the elite.
- David is optimistic about a rising global middle class; Demetri is more skeptical, worried about demographic, structural, and ecological bottlenecks [52:51–55:41].

Society, Work, and Automation

Automation and Job Creation:
- Kirkpatrick points to conference themes suggesting automation may create as many or more jobs than it displaces. The challenge lies in education and skill transitions [56:08].
- Example: Despite automation fears, truck driver jobs are unfilled and pay well [57:56].
- The US educational system is identified as a major weakness in adapting to technological disruption [60:27].
Individual vs Collective Adaptation:
- Demetri is skeptical of collective action and emphasizes the importance of individual responsibility and preparation [62:25].
- David is optimistic about collective societal adaptation, arguing massive changes will require shared effort: "Collective action is necessary... I am much more interested in putting my shoulder to the wheel in the context of a movement of people who care." [63:06]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Tech and Ethics:
"The ethics and moral values of the people determining how the technologies work are going to become more and more determinative in what happens in society." – David Kirkpatrick [02:26]
On Universal Basic Income:
"Universal basic income is a absolutely wrong-headed idea... The more people hear irrational, selfish, elitist ideals like UBI coming out of leaders of tech, the more their skepticism about technology is going to grow." – David Kirkpatrick [04:06]
On Brain-Reading and Thought Privacy:
"We're going to be able to decipher brain activity... for trivially inexpensive cost... So there's going to be some elements of brain reading as part of the way that society operates, for better or for worse." – David Kirkpatrick [08:45]
On Platform Incentives:
"Advertising is basically an attention based business model where revenues and profits rise to the degree they can seduce the user to spend their time looking at the screen... that leads to... the promotion of fear and anger as content." – David Kirkpatrick [19:18]
On Social Inequality:
"If it [technology] is just for a small class, then I might as well just hang it up because I'm not interested in it just being for a small class." – David Kirkpatrick [52:51]
On Educational Reform:
"The sheer obvious inadequacy of our educational institutions and their inability to really prepare people for the world we know we're entering into." – David Kirkpatrick [60:27]
On Geoengineering and Climate Authority:
"Any billionaire could afford to do, or any country could afford to do significant geoengineering currently. It would violate all kinds of global laws to do that. But if you were Bangladesh and faced with the disappearance of your country, you might say, screw it, I'm gonna do it anyway." – David Kirkpatrick [41:28]

Important Timestamps & Segments

Techonomy’s mission and values: [01:34–05:18]
AI, ethics, and future risks: [02:10–06:27]
Debate about brain-reading technology and tech utopianism: [07:32–13:02]
Advertising, attention, and algorithmic manipulation: [19:10–21:18]
Data privacy, blockchain, and potential reforms: [21:16–24:40]
Facebook & social control: [24:40–27:43]
Climate change, geoengineering, and political implications: [34:12–43:22]
On political tribalism, misuse of "science": [46:21–48:17]
Global middle class and inequality: [52:51–56:00]
Automation, jobs, and education: [56:08–60:39]
Collective vs individual action: [62:25–63:06]

Conclusion

This rich, spirited exchange explores how technological advances are rapidly shifting the axes of authority, trust, and direction in society. It probes the limits of techno-optimism and the risks of neglecting ethics and social adaptation. The episode features frank debate around power, inequality, and the roles of both private innovation and public policy, making it essential listening for anyone wanting to understand the intersections of technology, authority, and the future.

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Where Does Authority Reside In A Networked, Artificially Intelligent World? | David Kirkpatrick