Eps XXV: No Body. No Peace.

Summary

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Hide and Seek Podcast

Episode XXV: No Body. No Peace.

Date: July 12, 2025
Case: The Disappearance of Shane Barton

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Main Theme and Purpose

In this season finale, host James Basinger and his team review the investigation into the mysterious 2023 disappearance of Shane Barton from Rochester, Washington. The episode offers a comprehensive analysis of the investigative journey, focusing on the persistent questions surrounding Barton's fate: Was his vanishing voluntary, a tragic accident, or something more sinister? With insight from national “no body” homicide expert Tad Tobias, the discussion centers on investigative strategy, the suspicious actions of key figure Howard Wheeler, and ongoing frustrations with law enforcement’s response.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reviewing Evidence at Howard Wheeler’s Property

• [03:03 - 04:32] James recaps last episode: GPR scans on four concrete slabs behind Howard Wheeler’s house, focusing in particular on a suspicious greenhouse slab laid 14 months after Shane's disappearance.
• [04:45] Tad Tobias: Raises questions about why a greenhouse (which appears unused) would require a thick concrete slab, suggesting the timing and oddity are suspicious.
• Main Points:
  • The greenhouse was empty, with no signs of ever being used (plants, residue, etc.).
  • Howard volunteered to let investigators dig, but only if they fixed the slab—a move Tad sees as more bluff than true cooperation.

2. Howard Wheeler’s Fake Alibi & Suspect Behavior

• [04:45 - 10:41]
  • Howard created a provably fake hotel receipt alibi for the day Shane disappeared.
  • [08:13] Tad Tobias: "The only reason to do it, in my mind, is because he either knows about it, he has more involvement, and he wants to have something that he can throw these podcasters off and ultimately the police off."
  • [09:36] Tad Tobias: Expresses astonishment at law enforcement's lack of interest in fully investigating Howard’s behavior and the fabricated alibi, noting it reflects poorly on the thoroughness and openness of the official investigation.

3. Law Enforcement Frustrations & Investigative Gaps

• [10:41 - 15:00]
  • The team expresses concern over law enforcement's inaction after being provided proof that Howard’s alibi was falsified.
  • Questions why other logical investigative leads (including following up with Rachel and others close to Shane) have not been thoroughly pursued.
  • Tad points out the importance, in “no body” homicide cases, of not only chasing leads but systematically eliminating suspects. He critiques law enforcement for doing "the bare minimum" and not rigorously pursuing all logical possibilities.

4. Theories: Walkaway, Suicide, or Foul Play?

• [26:51 - 28:26]
  • [26:55] Tad Tobias: Considers the odds: “The suicide accident is bigger in my mind than walking away and creating a new life... but even that doesn’t seem plausible given Shane’s relationships and lack of resources.”
  • Team consensus is that a voluntary walkaway is extremely unlikely based on Shane’s personality, life circumstances, and close ties to his children.

5. Investigative Methods & Impact

• [29:28 - 33:46]
  • Post-interview, the team discusses how forensic and procedural steps (like the GPR scans) serve two purposes: gathering evidence AND eliminating suspects in case of future litigation.
  • [31:03] "Call the county, have them come do it. You know, if you take the emotions out... it's just checking the box." (Jeremy)
  • The shifting willingness of Howard to cooperate (from permission to withhold) is noted as behavior that stimulates further suspicion.

6. Focus on Rachel Barton, Scrutiny & Public Reaction

• [37:03 - 42:22]
  • Recognition that Rachel, Shane’s wife, is inevitably central to the case—not just as last person to see Shane, but due to her actions and shifting statements.
  • The team addresses feedback about too much/too little focus on Rachel and reiterates investigative protocol: "When a person vanishes and their spouse is the last one to see them, you ask questions. You have to." (James, [49:28])
  • They openly acknowledge changes seen in Rachel’s behavior and statements over time, as well as the emotional impact of the ongoing scrutiny on her.

7. Team Lessons & Takeaways

• [42:22 - 44:55]
  • Jeremy: Felt wounded by the process, but says “that’s what you should expect when you care.” Notes the diverse team input and value of contributors.
  • Vicki Lockery: “Integrity comes with a cost... Some people want validation, not answers.” Points out the challenge of upholding objective truth in the face of community pressures.

8. Law Enforcement Communication Breakdown

• [35:10 - 36:48]
  • After a promising initial conversation with the new sheriff, follow-up from law enforcement was nonexistent despite "sink your teeth into" evidence repeatedly supplied by the podcast team.
  • General sense that all leads and alternate theories are being ignored, not just those involving Howard.

9. Transparency About Funding (Patreon Discussion)

• [45:06 - 47:35]
  • James and Vicki clarify: Patreon exists to help cover investigative costs (travel, equipment, etc.), not to hide crucial information behind a paywall or exploit victims.
  • All main episodes and findings remain free.
  • “Everything I pour into the podcast and the episodes will all be free.” (Jeremy [49:11])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tad Tobias [04:45]:
  “Why did he pour this? And why did he put this greenhouse that... has nothing in it? That seems strange to me.”
• Tad Tobias [08:13]:
  “The only reason to do it, in my mind, is because he either knows about it, he has more involvement, and he wants to have something that he can throw these podcasters off and ultimately the police off.”
• Tad Tobias [09:36]:
  “You all have shown something that is demonstrably false, and the police aren't interested. I don't know why that would be unless they have some evidence that says he's 100% innocent, ... or we think he's guilty and we're running some other game on him that we think will produce something.”
• Tad Tobias [19:25]:
  “That does not hold water with me at all. That is very suspicious that you have someone who's admittedly close to him, says some statements that are very damning, and then all of a sudden, she comes off him and says, 'Oh, I never said that.' ... It shows that Howard's a very controlling person. He's trying to control the narrative.”
• Jeremy [31:03]:
  "'Call the county, have them come do it. ... It's just checking the box.'"
• Vicki Lockery [43:52]:
  “Integrity comes with a cost. Choosing facts over popularity or due diligence over drama doesn't always win you applause, right? What it does is protect the work and your conscience.”
• James Basinger [49:28]:
  “But when a person vanishes and their spouse is the last one to see them, you ask questions. You have to.”
• James Basinger [closing, 49:28]:
  “We scanned slabs, followed trails, faced lies head on. And we never stopped asking the one question that cracked everything open. Why?”

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Important Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 03:03 – Recap of the GPR scans at Howard Wheeler’s property.
• 04:45 – 10:41 – Tad Tobias gives expert analysis on evidence, Howard’s behavior, and law enforcement response.
• 19:12 – 23:08 – Affidavit from Kimmy Whalen retracted under Howard’s pressure; Tad describes this as “controlling” and a red flag.
• 26:51 – 28:26 – Tad’s assessment of suicide vs. walkaway vs. homicide.
• 29:28 – 33:46 – Reflections from James, Jeremy, and Vicki about the Zeal of the investigation and lessons learned from Tad.
• 35:10 – Jeremy describes failed follow-up by law enforcement after initial contact.
• 43:52 – Vicki’s summary of integrity and the costs of honest investigation.
• 45:06 – 47:35 – Transparency about podcast funding and the role of Patreon.
• 49:28 – End – James’ emotional summary and final appeal to both Shane (if alive) and the public.

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Summary

This episode provides a raw, honest recap and deep dive into the unresolved disappearance of Shane Barton. Expert guest Tad Tobias challenges the logic of law enforcement’s inactivity in the face of suspicious behavior from Howard Wheeler—including the fabrication of an alibi and manipulation of witness statements. The hosts are candid about the personal and investigative obstacles faced, the necessity of scrutinizing all possible suspects (including family members), and their ongoing frustrations with official responses. By re-examining facts, questioning assumptions, and maintaining transparency about their investigative methods and funding, the Hide and Seek team reinforces their commitment to truth, accountability, and hope for resolution in Shane Barton’s case.

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Transcript

[Jeremy]

I'm jeremy from olive branch, mississippi.

[James Basinger]

Hey.

[Tad Tobias]

Jaime williamson. Kenya. This is dana.

[Vicki Lockery]

Hi. This is jill.

[Jeremy]

Hi.

[Vicki Lockery]

This is jacqueline. Direct.

[Jeremy]

I'm lynn.

[Vicki Lockery]

I'm vicki lockery. I've come all the way to nashville for crimecon 2024 from australia and you're listening to hide and seek.

[Jeremy]

Hide and seek podcast.

[Tad Tobias]

Welcome for a bonfire.

[Vicki Lockery]

Hey, Hide and Seek listeners. We're introducing a new segment to our episode lineup. Recap. Epis These episodes will provide a focused review of the past few installments, will also answer listener submitted questions and feature insights from friends of the show. This new edition is designed to deepen everyone's understanding of the investigation and ensure your questions are heard. If there's questions you'd like answered, please leave a voicemail at 509-866-6985 or email [e-mail] we look forward to hearing from you. Your participation is vital as we continue covering this case. Thank you for your continued support and dedication to the search for answers.

[Narrator/Producer]

And please note, the views and opinions expressed by guests on Hide and Seek are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the hosts or contributors. Listener discretion is advised.

[Jeremy]

Now Thurston County Sheriff's Office asking for your help in finding a missing person.

[James Basinger]

Stephen Barton.

[Vicki Lockery]

Shane Barton.

[Tad Tobias]

Stephen Barton also goes by the name Shane. 54 year old Stephen Barton was last

[Jeremy]

seen at his rural Rochester home Wednesday night.

[Tad Tobias]

His wife went to meet him in his rv, but he was nowhere to be found. Wife and son say Barton was nowhere to be found.

[Jeremy]

Investigators say it's still unclear if he

[Tad Tobias]

left home on his own or if

[Jeremy]

foul play was involved. He's 5 foot 8, has short, short brown hair and brown.

[Tad Tobias]

If you know anything about what happened, I was there the day before he went missing.

[Vicki Lockery]

Where is he? Rachel? They're like play hide and go see

[Tad Tobias]

for me, honestly, like, what can I do, right? Jumps out with his handgun and he's pointing it. Snitches get stitches and wind up in ditches.

[Jeremy]

I know you from somewhere.

[Tad Tobias]

Something don't seem right.

[Vicki Lockery]

Something's.

[Tad Tobias]

Something's off. I don't know how much I can say to you, but something's just off.

[Vicki Lockery]

I trust you 100%.

[Tad Tobias]

I hope you guys find him. I kind of in my mind question

[Jeremy]

what he was actually doing for a living.

[Tad Tobias]

If he shows up, he shows up. If they find him, they find him. Probably somewhere in Mexico. Shane ain't coming back. I believe Shane's in a 55 gallon drum of acid. That's what I believe. I Still can't believe he's missing.

[James Basinger]

I'm your host, James Basinger.

[Jeremy]

This is Hide and Seek, the disappearance of Shane Barton.

[Tad Tobias]

Lord, it's your world. We're just living in it.

[James Basinger]

Hey, guys. Last episode, we scanned four concrete slabs behind Howard Wheeler's house. One of them, a greenhouse, stood empty. No plants, no purpose, just concrete. Laid 14 months after Shane vanished. Howard says dig anywhere. But that offer, paired with the fake alibi raises more questions than answers. So in this final episode, I brought in Tad Tobias, national expert in nobody homicides. He's worked over 50 of them. As I've mentioned before, dad has access to everything. And when he saw the evidence, he didn't hold back. This isn't about speculation. It's about patterns, behavior, strategy. This is the final push of season four. A deep dive into Shane Barton's case and a sharper lens on Howard Wheeler. This is episode 24, part 2. After months of following Shane's case, the investigation brought us back to one place.

[Jeremy]

Howard Wheeler's property. Four slabs of concrete, one greenhouse.

[James Basinger]

And a lot of questions. We ran the GPR scan. Brandon said disturbed soil wanted to ask Tad his opinion on the whole situation. I wanted his reaction, not just as

[Jeremy]

a lawyer excited to link up with

[James Basinger]

you, Tad, but as someone who's seen what it looks like. We took that pause because we had

[Jeremy]

to do the gpr.

[James Basinger]

When someone tries to bury the truth,

[Jeremy]

I do have film, but to me, if you get to that 10 foot mark, I couldn't say that anything was disturbed past that point.

[Tad Tobias]

Why did he pour this? And why did he put this greenhouse that. That looks like it has nothing in it. That seems strange to me. A greenhouse like this. I don't think you'd need to pour a concrete slab. Right? You're not using it as a. As a patio or deck. You're not putting a heavy structure on it because a greenhouse. So that. That to me strikes me as odd. The reason he poured it to begin with, but. But then again, you know, I go back to what you have said, which is he's cooperating. And he says if you want to dig it up and dig it up, just fix it for me at the end. Which is a weird thing to say. If you potty there, he'll call your bluff of saying they don't want to pay $12,000 to fix that. It would be nice if the police took more of an interest in this. God, enough to say, let's do a warrant. And then we're digging it up and we're not Paying you back, buddy. Tough shit. I am still astonished that the police don't seem as interested in the created documents that I think are particularly damning for Howard. Why would he lie about something if he had nothing to do with just. I don't buy that. He says, I wanted to get you guys off my back because he likes the attention. He really enjoys it. He likes talking shit with you guys. He likes being on the show. Everybody said what a character he was and all that, but it's just. It's weird to me that to create that fake document, I can't think of another reason to do it. If he was innocent and is doing this out of ego and it's a, you know, little mind, and he can pretend he's superior, why would he create a fake document that alibis him? Because the logical output of that would be you all would say, well, now we're not interested in you anymore. We're going to walk away because you proved yourself. We're going to go off to other suspects. The only reason to do it, in my mind, is because he either knows about it, he has more involvement, and he wants to have something that he can throw these podcasters off and ultimately the police off. And now we've caught him and said, this is bullshit. You made it up. From an investigative standpoint, I don't understand that at all. I will say, usually I'm pretty good about saying, oh, you know, the police have other information and we may not know about it. You all have shown something that is demonstrably false, and the police aren't interested. I don't know why that would be unless they have some evidence that says he's 100% innocent, we know he didn't do it, or we think he's guilty and we're running some other game on him that we think will produce something. If I'm an investigator and I'm working a particular angle, I don't know why you would ignore another angle. Give me all those documents. Show me what you have. Show me why you think they're fake. Let's go through the timeline. You know, all of those things behind the scenes. Why wouldn't you follow up with people who've discovered this?

[James Basinger]

Even for Rachel?

[Jeremy]

You know Rachel's saying she saw Shane the Ninth.

[Tad Tobias]

Yes. Right. Which is vague to me, too. For example, now I'm listening to Dateline Missing in America. You hear all these things that happen in the cases, and you're like, jesus Christ, why? Why didn't they do this? Why didn't they Follow up on this. I think you hear it unfortunately, in cases where the investigation is not well done. And that's what concerns me here is why. Why wouldn't anybody, when faced with a possible suspect, and let's say there's five suspects in this case or whatever, a possible suspect, and you have a provable lie on a critical factor. Where were you that day? I was in California. No, you weren't. That to me, it's just, I don't. I don't understand why you wouldn't pursue that pretty rigorously even if you had some other, you know, investigative game you were working. And I'm. I'm not using game in like a trick or something, but they had another lead that they felt like, we're running this out. It still doesn't make sense to me why you would not be interested in that. And I hope it's not because, well, it's. You know, some podcasters, it doesn't matter if you give them the stuff and they can verify it themselves. They have forensic experts, they have the same computer people that, you know, you had help you all look at it, they can do the same thing and reach their own conclusion. But I don't even get the sense they did that. It's not like they looked at it and said, oh, no, you guys are wrong. It's X, Y and Z, not abc. I get the sense that they're just for some reason, not interested. And that makes me nervous about the investigation. Are they really doing everything, you know, that. That they can? I hate saying that. I tend to try not to be critical of the police, but I've been around long enough that I know there are detectives who do everything in their power to solve a case. And there are some that do kind of the bare minimum and, and reject things that maybe don't fit their theory. And I don't know what their working theory would be. He walked away. He's hiding somewhere. That's usually not a great theory in missing persons cases. Missing Person 101. If they've been gone this long, critical missing person or whatever, they didn't walk away.

[James Basinger]

I share in your.

[Jeremy]

Just in general with law enforcement, I'm usually thinking there's something we don't know giving that grace that I naturally give.

[Tad Tobias]

Yes, I agree. And I hope it's not because they say, well, if he's asking to have his place GPR'd, it means he didn't do it. One, he could be bluffing. Two, he could know it's not buried there, but it's buried somewhere else where he didn't lay down concrete. And he's like, oh, yeah, dig here all you want, because fucking over there, that just makes me nervous, like I said. And again, after all my years of doing this, I don't have any dynamic insight into why. Why wouldn't someone do that? If someone called me and said, you can come GPR my area and maybe I'll let you dig it out if you agree to fix it afterwards, why wouldn't you do it? Check the box. Because when you get the real suspect, if Howard's not the real suspect, you've got to have eliminated Howard. Because if I'm a defense attorney, I'm going to say you arrested my client, Rachel or whoever. And again, I still don't think it's Rachel, although she's a problematic player in all of this. But you didn't. You didn't look at Howard. Look at this fucking guy. He lied about where he was. He lied about what he did with their money. He stole their money. Not being able to knock that down is a bad technique in a nobody murder case. Because one of the things I talk about in a nobody murder case, you have so many more suspects because it's not like Shane was found dead in his house. Okay, who are suspects, Rachel? The son, the daughters. It's limited. But now we have no idea where Shane is. So we have a million suspects. It's like the entire state of Washington is a suspect because we have no idea. So to be able to eliminate someone and say to a jury down the road, howard cooperate. He spoke to us a bunch of times. He list GPR his area. He said, dig anywhere on my property. I don't care. Do all that. That helps your case. It's helpful to eliminate people. Animals don't eat clothes. Animals don't eat a gun. The amount of suicides where you don't find the body, I just think doesn't happen very often. You know, it's just not. Maybe, maybe, maybe in a drowning or something, but doesn't seem to be a lot of bodies of water or suspicions of, you know, drown in the lake, you drown in the ocean and all that. It seems to be. Everybody says it's just a large property and there's places you can, you can go. He just doesn't. Doesn't seem to fit the profile. Yes, he had some financial difficulties and things like that, but not so crushing. Or he wasn't. He wasn't living a house of cards. Like, he wasn't a Ponzi schemer and then all of a sudden, he's about to get found out. None of that seems to be the case. But if that's your working theory, that's fine. But if you don't have any evidence of that, you damn well better eliminate everybody else. Killer X. Killer X is always the person out there who committed the crime. When someone goes to trial for a nobody, a defense attorney is going to say, wasn't my guy. It was killer X. It was this person who did it. Unlike most cases, you really have to spend time eliminating other people. You've got to close other doors, because at trial, you have one door that's open and that's your defendant. And when they start going to other things, you got to say, nope, we did that. We closed that door. We GPR'd Howard's property. We talked him. We found out the reason he bullshit on his thing was because he was supposed to be, you know, he was with a woman out there and he didn't want his girlfriend to find out or whatever it is, all of that. Most nobody murder cases are made one of three ways. Forensic evidence. Confession to police, confession to friends and family. That's how most of these cases are made. Sometimes you get an eyewitness, but it's rare. Sometimes you, you know, really good. It's still forensic evidence, a video or something like that that shows the person somewhere they're not supposed to be. You know, the Jennifer Doulos case in Connecticut, they had her estranged husband throwing shit out in garbage cans all over Connecticut. But for the most part, for nobody murder cases, you don't have witnesses. You all have followed the forensic trail pretty well of trying to say is seen. We don't have a scene. And when you don't have a scene, it's tough to find. Forensic confession to police that's not in your control. Confession to friends and family. Well, Kimmy Whalen, you kind of got that. And then all of a sudden, Howard basically, I think, forces her to take it back. He basically put her in a metaphorical headlock and said, you didn't say that. Right, right. That's very obvious. Those are how you make most of most of these. Most of these cases. Now, obviously, we're still on a timeframe with Shane that the body could be found, you know, a scene could be found, all of that. I wouldn't give up hope of that. We're, you know, what, two plus years out. I also think too, with someone like Howard, he talks a lot, and there may be someone out there who heard him say, Something about something. Clearly has access to guns. He has a fairly large property. He said, Shane said to him threatened him. You know, there's clearly a history between the two of them. Even despite his cooperation on allowing this, I still think he's a very viable suspect. And you found nothing that eliminates him, right? It doesn't eliminate him that a GPR guy said, well, there may be something seven, you know, seven feet under. And that's. Does Howard have a backhoe?

[Jeremy]

He access to excavators and stuff like that?

[James Basinger]

He.

[Tad Tobias]

Yeah, with a backhoe it's easier, but most people digging a ditch seven feet down, that's a shitload. That's hard. That type of physical labor without a backhoe is very difficult. With a backhoe, it's obviously easier, but also more suspicious. You know, I don't know how close his neighbors are or anything to say. Well, he's running a backhoe for two days. But the fact that the GPR said there might be something, you know, between 7 to 10ft down, well, that's, that's not crazy to think you might bury a body. I mean, yeah, Ideally you'd go 25ft, but maybe not. If you're doing it yourself and not using a backhoe, 7 to 10ft is, is, is pretty deep.

[Jeremy]

Listening to Brandon, the GPR specialist, he's like, it's just here. His explanation is I filled this. So then wouldn't this all have that

[Tad Tobias]

then I'm the same way. I'm not super inclined as to how to do that. Well, also strikes me as weird to pour. I don't know how thick the slab of concrete is, but it's not 7 to 10ft. I wouldn't think. You're probably talking what, 2ft, right? When you pour a slab, why do you even dig down that far? Do you dig down 7 to 10ft to pour a 2 foot slab? That seems strange to me. And why are you bringing in all this fill? That also seems strange to me. But the main thing is why are you doing it at all? Why are you putting this weird 20 by 20 concrete slab to have a greenhouse, by the way, is completely empty. He said he did it 14 months after Shane disappeared or whatever. Okay, but you still have nothing in your greenhouse. Is that for shade Lee, or who is that for? It just. That just struck me as really weird. Weird, Weird. Okay. He built you a greenhouse and you have a lot of plants and stuff you've said. But where, why aren't they in there?

[Vicki Lockery]

And it doesn't look like anything has Ever been in there? Like, there's not right.

[Tad Tobias]

You usually see some crap on the thing and build up and pollen and all that. You don't see any of that, which is, it's been there a year with nothing in it. In a perfect world, the police would have done this, and they would have said, hey, bud, we're gonna tear this up now. We're gonna dig it, and either you cooperate, we'll pay for it, or, you know, we'll get a search warrant and you'll end up paying for it. I just don't like to go back. What we said earlier. I don't understand the lack of interest in that doesn't make sense to me.

[Vicki Lockery]

You mentioned Kimmy. Howard has her sign an affidavit saying that she, you know, she didn't say whatever. Whatever it was.

[Tad Tobias]

Yep.

[Vicki Lockery]

Does this hold any water, Tad?

[Tad Tobias]

Like, no, that does not hold water with me at all. That is very suspicious that you have someone who's admittedly close to him, says some statements that are very damning, and then all of a sudden, she comes off him and says, oh, I never said that. And let me. Let me sign an affidavit. That, to me, is almost worse. It shows that Howard is sort of thinking like, you know, litigious person that he is. Oh, if I show the police this affidavit, that's going to have more effect than if. If Kimmy just denies ever saying it. That doesn't hold well with me at all. It shows that Howard's a very controlling person. He's trying to control the narrative against him. He's trying to control that narrative by seemingly cooperating with you all. And that, to me, is suspicious. It smacks of a lot of nobody murder defendants are domestic violence offenders, which this is not. But they're also all about control and thinking, I'm smarter than the police. I'm smarter than these podcasters. I can control the narrative. I can control what's happening, and I'll cooperate, and that will make me look innocent, even though, in fact, I have been involved. He's very on par for all of that. It just really sets off my Spidey senses. It's just. He's too much. This is too much to do. If you had nothing to do with it, at some point you'd get tired of it and say, this is bullshit. And he seems to relish it. He seems to enjoy it. Let's talk about how you created this fake document and why you created it. Why would you do that if you had nothing to do with it. Like, don't you. Don't you understand that if I'm a podcaster, I'm an investigative journalist? You just waved a red cape in front of a bull by making up something. You don't seem dumb, Howard. How could you possibly have thought that that was gonna end the inquiry? And certainly once we proved it false, how could you possibly think that that was a good thing to do? And in fact, what I think is, you know, Rachel, her level of cooperation and her kind of naivete, but also that her story does seem to be confirmed by the Apple Watch analysis, which was amazing, I think makes her less of a suspect to me. She doesn't have much of a motive. Shane dying doesn't get her any insurance or doesn't get her some great estate or get her out of child support or something. Her life is, as you've pointed out, James, her life is worse off now. And I do have a little bit of suspicion of how is she paying for everything now, which Howard keeps tossing out constantly. And that could probably use a little more digging, of saying, you know, Rachel, would you be willing to give us your. Your bank statements so that we can see what money is coming in and all that? But that, to me is kind of a minor issue. The issue now is focus on Howard because it'll either incriminate him or it'll exculpate him. And if it exculpates him, you've done the police a great service by saying he did all this shit. He looks guilty as hell, but he's not. He's a loud mouth, narcissistic, wanting to be the center of attention asshole. And as he said, what do you always call himself a good asshole or something like that?

[Vicki Lockery]

What was his nicest asshole you'll ever

[Tad Tobias]

meet, this asshole you ever meet? Well, I think you're kind of the assholest asshole. Honestly, he's an asshole. And period, full stop. Here's the other thing I do. I would crawl up his asshole in court documents. I would see what is out there. What has he done in court? Go to Pacer, which is the federal court system, because I think by looking at those, there's a possibility you're going to see one he's a scammer to. He's lied. And some of the shit he said to you is a provable lie as well. And that's going to help to come after him, to say, Howard, you said you had this much money and you said you had done this and this, you had all these properties. And we went in the court, we look at the real estate records. It's all a bunch of bull. You don't have all these things. You are a scammer. You're basically a con artist who is tricking people out of their money. Like Shane Barton and Rachel, who you tricked out of $12,000 by saying it was some. For some bullshit inspection or something. I think looking at his court history, it would be productive to go to county courthouses, wherever he's. He's sort of talked about different lawsuits and cases, and he's quick to say, oh, I sue people and all that. That would also, I think, be productive to look at those types of things. I'll tell you what I tell families when they struggle with this. If you're not getting satisfaction with the investigators, go to the prosecutors. That's the next step. Because detectives and police don't work for prosecutors on the org chart, but in reality, they do. Any police investigation at the end of the day needs to convince a prosecutor to sign a warrant, arrest the person, pursue charges at trial. If you're not getting satisfaction there, go to the prosecutors and say, this is what we found. We share it with the investigators. We gave them time. We told them we were open to talk about it, and nothing's happening. And we think this points at him as a potential suspect, and we're giving it to you because we're not getting satisfaction at that level. The level after that, then, I think is like, you know yourselves, investigative journalists and other journalists to say, this is what we found. As a press person, are you interested in this? Those are the next two logical steps. To me, if you can't get the DA Interested, once the press becomes interested, suddenly the DA Elected official is interested all of a sudden. But you're on the moral high ground to say, well, I told the state and local people, I told the prosecutor, and now I went to the press. I didn't blindside any of you. I'm giving the press the same thing I'm giving you, and nothing happened on it. Can I just meet with you? You know, I. You may be skeptical podcasters, whatever, but, you know, you can't deny podcasters have solved cases and solve things. And all I'm saying is we're legit people. We're not sensationalists. We have carefully gone through this and given it to the police first before we publicize anything about it. And we just. And you can say, we talked to a guy who's done. Who's investigated 50 nobody murder cases. It's not like it's just the two of us. He said, why aren't the police doing more on this? Why aren't they interested in this type of a lock? Solid. This is a bullshit hotel receipt. It's not real. And it's for the day of the murder. And it says this dude was in California and he wasn't. He was here in Washington.

[Jeremy]

Any part of you that feels like maybe he. Shane, could have walked away.

[Tad Tobias]

There's always a part of me that thinks that, you know, there's always a part of me that says one, did he walk away and start a new life? I'd say the suicide accident is bigger in my mind than walking away and creating a new life. Because it's not like he was rolling in money. Got some secret pot of money out there that he's living off of. I don't think that happens. And if it does happen, it's like people have, like crypto money in Switzerland, and they're like this, I'm out of here. This dude who's a motorcycle repair man, you know, he hasn't stashed away a bunch of money. So that, to me, is the least likely. Suicide being slightly more likely. This being the least likely to me because people of his sort of socioeconomic level, which is. Which is a broad range of, like, all of us, right? It's only the real rich people who flee and create false Personas and all that. Are people really fleeing from something that they did. And he doesn't seem to have any of that. Is that doesn't seem to be accused of a crime or anything. And I just don't think he'd have the wherewithal and the means to stay hidden for that long. I do think from what I heard, it sounds like he was an okay relationship with Rachel. They may have had their problems, but every marriage does. But also his kids. I don't think he would have walked away from his kids like that. He seemed very close to his son, close to his daughter. And that to me, just doesn't make sense that he would do that. I don't see him as a walk

[James Basinger]

away or why poor a slab for a greenhouse that's empty. You're not building a deck. There's no foundation needed. He says, dig it up, just fix it later. Oh, and that'll be 12,000. That's not cooperation. It felt like a dare. What stood out even more wasn't under the ground, but on paper. The hotel receipt. Dated, stamped California. One problem. He wasn't there, and we proved it. Tad knew what that Kind of lie means you don't create a fake alibi unless you have something to hide, right? That's not ego, that's intent. Coming up, Sarah Jo and I sit down for an honest conversation. What I've lost, what I've learned, and what still keeps me up at night. That's right after this. Before I wrap up this season, I sat down with Sarah Jo, producer, someone who's seen all sides of this case.

[Jeremy]

So after listening to Tad for a second time, what stood out to you?

[James Basinger]

No script. Just us and the mic.

[Jeremy]

Walking away from the interview with Tad,

[James Basinger]

a moment to speak freely.

[Vicki Lockery]

I thought he had some great points and something that you and I have discussed is the reason you do something like the gpr. The GPR isn't done with the sole intent of finding remains or a body or whatever. There's also other reasons to do it. And one of the things Tad points out is if this case were to go to court at some point, there's things that are already done here. Say somebody else were to be brought up on charges and go to court. The prosecution and the defense are defending their client. What they're supposed to do their job. There's an opportunity for the prosecution to say, hey, sure, my client's here. My client's on trial for this. But what about Mr. Howard Wheeler, who's looked into him? Have they done this? Or there's all this evidence. Why is my client here, but Howard Wheeler hasn't, you know, been investigated or whatever. That's a great point that Tad makes, because that could end up clearing Howard in the end. You know, Howard was pretty willing to let you do the GPR or. And dig if you wanted, as long as you returned it back. So what does that say to you? Like, what. What are you. What's your thoughts on that?

[Jeremy]

Call the county, have them come do it. You know, if you take the emotions out of, like, do you do it? Do you not do it? It's just checking the box. I got to do this because it shows this now. Like, this isn't what I want to do. Did he really call Thurston County? His willingness, his cooperation to let us do it? You know, how do you knock that? And now he's kind of in a position where he's like, nope, you're not going to come test the soil at all now. So then it kind of, okay, well, now you're not cooperative. That changed within a week, basically.

[Vicki Lockery]

And so when it changes, is it difficult to know here when this is calling a bluff or when he's being genuine and serious.

[Jeremy]

It's hard to know whenever Howard's being genuine and serious these days, but not really because I think that we're just doing the job.

[Vicki Lockery]

But also, is it hard to know when he's bluffing? Because when I'm listening to it, I'm thinking he's being pretty cooperative, like allowing you to just basically destroy his property if you choose to do that. But then in the back of my mind, I'm wondering, well, is. Is he bluffing? Like, is he saying that because he thinks you're not gonna do it? So is that hard, do you think?

[Jeremy]

At this point, he's thinking, I'm not

[Vicki Lockery]

gonna follow through, you know, I don't know. I don't know.

[Jeremy]

Did I think he was gonna let me actually pull the soil? I knew it was a 5050 at that point.

[Vicki Lockery]

So when you're thinking of doing the gpr when we initially, you know, started talking about this, to go back to what Tad said, Tad mentions potential future court proceedings. You know, what you did here and doing the GPR could benefit that. Is that on your mind at all when. When you're making the decision to do the GPR at Howard's?

[Jeremy]

After our interview with Tad, I didn't really ever think about that you could be doing something, not realizing you're doing multiple benefits to the case. And that's part of it. You know, I was hearing from Tad that confirmation of, yep, keep doing this and you go in the right direction. Our relationship with Tad, he has access to these interviews outside the podcast. I said these are the raw interviews that he has access and the ability to read, listen, especially being able to hear his opinion on Rachel, of course, Rachel, you're changing some stuff up that's not looking good. Hearing his opinion on what's not being done, he mentioned it. I'm quick to say, you know, there's something either they have that we don't know. There doesn't seem to be any activity going on with this case, especially with the stuff that's being provided. I'm not feeding them some random lead or some random tip if I ever make contact, something that they could sink their teeth into.

[Vicki Lockery]

It would be interesting for you to share your thoughts on the search and the suicide theory by law enforcement and have your thoughts changed throughout the season on that topic.

[Jeremy]

It's always just been hard for me to get behind, especially during that search wave of searches that they did because they did a great job. From the Fleur on the day of, you know, with the dogs out there on the 11th where the dogs traveled to where the search and rescue teams went. It's hard to think that they did. The animals didn't pick up on Shane's scent. If he did do that to himself, if law enforcement thinks that maybe they have that for a reason. If your theory is that he committed suicide, that doesn't mean that you ignore all the other stuff coming in. You know, not just from Howard, from, not just from Rachel. Even a voicemail left on Rachel, on John Sutherland's phone. Why wasn't he ever pulled in and been like what was the night of the 8th call, voicemail about Shane's missing. You're giving her money. What's your guys relationship about? I've made it clear before. John as a person, he's a great friend to Shane. The point that I'm making of course is there's not a lot of investigative work being done here. If we're gonna rest on suicide, why haven't we found him? Animals don't eat clothes.

[Vicki Lockery]

What are your thoughts on the communication you've had with law enforcement during the season? Mostly the detective who has Shane's case.

[Jeremy]

After my interview with Sheriff Sanders, it went very well. I think we all heard it and we were all very inspired and I'm not here to take any of that mission away. We had that first initial meeting as Sheriff Sanders gave me his word on. After that first meeting, zero follow up calls. I had sent multiple emails and again I'm not going to send something that you guys can't sink your teeth into. I know you're busy. We would provide something like the receipt. Rachel changing her testimony saying she saw Shane on the 9th. The voicemail was in their hands before this stuff started. Nothing's been done of all the stuff that we've uploaded. You can't take in all this information and be like, hey, there's nothing we're going to ask you questions about. The spouse is changing the last time they saw him. You need to follow that up with.

[Vicki Lockery]

If it was just that they were ignoring the information we were passing on about one person, I would think perhaps there was something that we were missing or we weren't privy to or you know, whatever. But it's not just one person, it's not just one document, it's everything.

[Jeremy]

Listening to Tad, he knows the legal system. He's not sitting here saying this guy's guilty or that guy's. He's saying what we're saying and that's there's stuff that needs to be done. There's lots of opportunity here. Still, whatever their theory is, there's only one right answer and the only way you get there is following a lot of dead ends. Can't force the shoe to fucking fit.

[Vicki Lockery]

You mentioned a moment ago you mentioned Rachel and this season we heard a lot about how much time or maybe you didn't, but I heard a lot about how much time you spent on Rachel.

[Jeremy]

She's the spouse, she's at the property. She did some things that look odd and kind of catch your eye when you first glance at the case. She's sleeping out in the barn or the shop. That's odd. Like how long that been going on? Phones are off that day. Like that's odd too. How did that go down? This is the last place he's seen. You know, Shane didn't have a lot of friends that he would go hang out with. He was very much a homebody at that point in time of his life. He was just kind of hanging to himself at the house, to the motocross track or to do a Suite Life event with Rachel. There wasn't a large number of individuals to really work on. When you look at Howard or Shane's life, he's got Scott Nydemaker at his house, he's got bt, he's talked to John, but he's not really going any other places. I was trying to feel Rachel out for, for a long time and trying to understand who she is and. Because early on when I came into this and she's like, yeah, I look for blood. Oh yeah. I opened the door and he was sleeping on the bed.

[Tad Tobias]

You saw him.

[Jeremy]

As I'm sharing the episodes and the story, I'm still having to investigate her still I'm still looking at her and questioning and she's a spouse. When someone goes missing, who do you look at first? The spouse. Bill Moyer, Eric Shank, Rachel, you always look at the spouse.

[James Basinger]

What were they doing?

[Jeremy]

Where were they at? What was the dynamic of their relationship? And one thing I found out that made it hard was, you know, Rachel has a way of explaining a situation, telling a story. When I was going back to Shane's communication history and looking at their text communication, it was obvious to me that it wasn't necessarily what Rachel wanted me to believe. Whether that's for her self motivated reasons to portray this happily marriage. Why are you doing that? Is that because you had something to do with it? Is that because you're embarrassed? Is it because that's just your kind of personality, character? You have to get to know These individuals. And I think I was trying to share that at the same time with Rachel.

[Vicki Lockery]

Do you think that if you didn't focus as much on Rachel that you would have heard about that too? Is it kind of like, you know, being stuck between a rock and a hard place? You focus on her. People are unhappy about that or wondering about that. And if you don't, do you feel that it would have been the same kind of feedback?

[Jeremy]

Unfortunately, Rachel's usually weaved into the story of, for example, Greg. Shane told her he had a big deal and so then she now needs to get the phones turned on. So Greg's story pulls Rachel in. Howard in the taxes. It's hard to always remove her. To think if I hadn't because we're using her words, I don't know how you could avoid her. But if I did, I kind of go back to Shane. Didn't really have a large community of people at this point in time where you would inquire more and ask more questions. Like, we got Scott. Scott visited Shane Ware at his house. Where did BT visit Shane at his house? Shane went and visited Devin across the street. Rachel might agree or disagree, but like when Shane lost the house, the one the beans own, I think he lost his shop, he lost the grow. He lost a lot. I think there was a love of that circle of friends too. That whole fallout became public as well. Maybe Shane also pulled back in a way where he may have been embarrassed. Prideful thing for him. Rachel said he didn't like the fact that I was calling John to make, you know, request to borrow money.

[Vicki Lockery]

In your communications with Rachel from the beginning of the season to, you know, the end of the season, have you seen any change? Has there been a change?

[Jeremy]

When I first started this, Rachel was very, oh, man, I don't know what the word is, but she was emotional and she would react on it. The amount of scrutiny that she is under and how much people do, you know, go at her publicly? You know, I've seen growth and I've seen her also get right back into it, you know, and then I've seen her pull back again. She's learning how to get on her feet. If something happened to Shane, let's say she's unaware of what happened to him. This is a complete turn of her life upside down. She's been with Shane for 20 plus years and she's depended on him. He's always been there. She's always could rely on him because at the end of the day, Shane's going to save the day. That's a harsh reality to deal with Shane's case. I've seen her, you know, go from I think it was suicide. I think he ran off and he's with somebody. Believe that someone was involved. It's emotional. The hardest part is not knowing. And so I think trying to make sense and grasping it, and you're doing so many what ifs? How do you not go through those different phases of, oh, I think he ran away or maybe he committed suicide or he was doing a job and didn't tell me or someone else did it. I've seen her. I know. Also change into a new relationship. I have my suspicions with Rachel. I'm very clear. I'm very honest. Rachel knows that and she understands you changed the last time you said something. She has stayed in it even when the story doesn't always make her look great. She has always said, I'll do what I need to do for Shane. She hasn't pushed back with cease and desist. Walk that path and stay in it.

[Vicki Lockery]

24 episodes. What are your feelings and takeaways from this season?

[Jeremy]

Eight trips, including a search event that we put on multiple interviews with people in person. I feel like we've done a lot to be able to eliminate some noise and then also to be able to redirect and focus some attention on areas for Shane's case that needs to be further investigated. Disappointed we lost some relationships, that I'm walking away just feeling a little wounded, honestly. That's okay. That's what you should expect when you care. The season went really well from an investigative standpoint. We have a group of contributors who also did amazing work for us. You think that this is just my opinion and theory? No. I have a whole team behind me that are listening to all these interviews and trust me, we all don't see it the same way. There's a healthy balance there where you got people who are like, I don't necessarily agree. And it's. There's a. There's so many different. Totally different perspective. Or we got more than I ever expected. Especially with this idea of being able to bring people on who want to help. They take this serious. You know, they spent many hours on this, researching, listening to interviews, transcribing. I definitely see the. The benefit stuff that we want to improve on. An opportunity to grow. A lot of nights where we'd be on zoom sessions and like, reviewing a film or listening to an audio and getting real reaction, looking to run it back and take on season five.

[Vicki Lockery]

I know that I've learned a couple things this season. I learned that, and this is unfortunate, but it's the truth. Integrity comes with a cost. Choosing facts over popularity or due diligence over drama doesn't always win you applause, right? What it does is protect the work and your conscience. I think the other thing I've learned is that not everybody who says they want the truth actually does. I think some people want validation, not answers. I think the biggest part in that is the moment your investigation stops confirming their version of events, they either withdraw or worse, they retaliate. And I think those things are two things that may sound like negatives, but really they've been quite a valuable lesson.

[Jeremy]

I think one of the major lessons I'm going to, you know, I've learned is I'm really set on trying to figure out how to find a detective who's hungry to work. I don't feel like we were taken serious.

[Vicki Lockery]

So many law enforcement agencies are struggling with funding and here we are working for free. Last question. And this doesn't really have to do with the season, but there's been a lot of talk about Patreon. You know, just so everybody's clear, we're not the only podcast with a Patreon. Lots of them. Have them give us a little explanation of the intent of Patreon.

[Jeremy]

The intent was, was to be able to create an opportunity for us to continue these investigations that financially was going to help the projects opportunity to support us. But we're going to provide you with some behind the scenes content, whatever that may be. That was a way of me being able to try to offer some sort of benefit to subscribing to the Patreon account. What people may not understand, but I'll explain it real quick. When you're in the middle of a podcast season and you're releasing episodes, that's when those episodes are going to be downloaded the most. It's the most current stuff. When you're on off season, you're not generating that same type of downloads. Do you still get some downloads? Yes. People who are still hearing about it, but you're not getting the same type of downloads that you get when you're in season. My understand revenue goes down. I can tell you now I'm not Joe Rogan. Wish I was. Seasonal podcasts are not designed to make money because you're not releasing stuff on a regular basis. You have these weekly shows who benefit from that. Maybe one day I do a show like that. Today is not the day. I like Deep Dive. Patreon was A way to bridge that gap from one season to the next and still be able to help fund the projects that we need to be able to work. Showing up on site, knocking on doors, renting equipment. To be able to capture the information that we have so that we can share it with you guys and share it with law enforcement. Being there at Howard's house to do the gpr, to have the reaction for them to be able to see it. And it's all recorded with consent. It's awesome. That helps the case capturing. Rachel, talk about seeing Shane on the 9th. No one's funding those projects except me. Patreon account. It's helping me pay for the investigation, bringing Shane, bringing Ethan. This is a job for them. The equipment we need, the travel, the transportation, the food, this is stuff we have to pay for that gpr. Two polygraphs later and you guys got to hear all of it. I'm not complaining. This is what I chose. And there are people who said, hey, we want to support you. How do we do that? That's a way you don't have to

[Vicki Lockery]

doing this and helping families. There are costs, like James said, associated with this document. Fees, attorney fees, travel, equipment. And the podcast is free. Patreon is not holding information that is case shattering. That's not what this is about. You know, first there was the idea that we were releasing stuff in Patreon that was not going to law enforcement, detrimental to the case. Absolutely not true. There's also this idea that during this, this last break we were on that we were releasing episodes in Patreon just for people who were paying. And that is also not the case. You have made the commitment to, to keep them free always. What episodes are released in Patreon? The difference is that people who are paying for a $5 tier are just getting an episode with no ads. It's not the idea that episodes are being released in Patreon only for people who can afford to pay for them. Again, this isn't us profiting off of victims. This money goes back into the podcast like you just explained. But this isn't really any different than a detective being paid for their job, a private investigator being paid for their job. The television show disappeared. Those people who work on that show are all paid. And this is your job.

[Jeremy]

The whole purpose is for spreading awareness about the victims that will be free. Everything I pour into the podcast and the episodes will all be free. Alright, yo, I think that's it.

[Vicki Lockery]

That's it.

[James Basinger]

One theory has followed this case from the beginning. Not because it's been proven, but because it's convenient. The idea that Shane took his own life. Rachel Barton, she became a lightning rod this season. Some say we focus too much on her, some say not enough. But when a person vanishes and their spouse is the last one to see them, you ask questions. You have to. I've never hidden the cost of this work. Financially, emotionally, logistically. And when people started asking questions, I don't run from them. I answered directly. We came into the season without a roadmap. Just questions. Just Shane. What happened to him? Where'd he go? Who knows more than they're saying? We scanned slabs, followed trails, faced lies head on. And we never stopped asking the one question that cracked everything open. Why? I said it in episode one, and I'll say it again now. There's still a chance Shane is alive, that he ran, that he disappeared on purpose. Has that theory stayed on the table? Yeah. So, Shane, if you're out there, if you're listening, let me talk to you. We will never come looking for you. We won't expose where you are. All it takes is one phone call. Just one. Let the people who love you stop carrying this weight. Because if you're alive and you're ready, this can stop right now. Just your voice. But if you're not out there, if someone out there is the reason, then hear me. There's a fucking wild community behind Shane Barton. They're messy, emotional, they're tenacious, and they're not stopping. Clock's ticking for you. Because when they get their shit together, they're fucked. If you know something, be brave. Because if Shane is gone and you're sitting on that truth, then you're the final piece we need. Even through the chaos, the drama, all the noise, there's one thing I know for sure. We've got Rider 912 and Rider 912.

[Jeremy]

He's got us.

[Narrator/Producer]

Help support our search for missing persons by following Hide and Seek on Instagram and Facebook and by joining our Patreon at Hide and Seek Podcast. Stay updated with news from past seasons and the latest on Season four. The Hide and Seek Podcast is hosted, produced and directed by James Basinger. Lead script writing and episode design by Sarah Jo Audio Mixing, mastering and repair by Shane Morrow of Morrow Mixing and Mastering Season four Theme Pretty Little Devil by Shay Zamora Music composed and performed by Alex UK of the House They Haunt Is yous Director of photography Ethan Schatz second camera Tristan Meilou graphic design for season four by Bitvargan of Blood Co. A heartfelt thank you to our ground team and Patreon supporters. Your contributions make these investigations possible.