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- [00:03]
Amy Vaccaro
Welcome to High Impact Growth, a podcast from DiMagdi for people committed to creating a world where everyone has access to the services they need to thrive. We bring you candid conversations with leaders across global health and development about raising the bar on what's possible with technology and human creativity. I'm Amy Vaccaro, senior Director of Marketing at Dimangi and your co host, along with Jonathan Jackson, Dimangi's CEO and co founder. Dimaggi works with hundreds of organizations ranging from INGOs to locally led organizations and governments around the world. We're seeing big changes in the aid landscape with the US Agency for International Development canceling thousands of contracts and other major donors reducing their aid budgets. And the ripple effects are being felt across the sector. Today we are joined by Gillian Javetsky and Ismaila Dien, two leaders at Dimagi who are on the front lines of these changes. They share firsthand accounts of how our partners are navigating these changes, the impact we're seeing of funding cuts, and what innovative approaches might emerge from all of this. Can digital tools help bridge this funding gap? How can organizations adapt to ensure life saving work continues? And is there a silver lining amidst all this chaos? Listen to find out. It's a somber episode for sure, but be sure to listen till the end for a story that might make you laugh. All right, welcome to the High Impact Growth podcast. So today I am here with my co host and our CEO Jonathan Jackson. As always, Hi Jonathan. Good to see you. And today we are joined with two of DiMaggi's leaders who have been, shall I say, closest to a lot of the changes that are happening in the aid space right now. But really honored to be joined by Jillian Javetsky, managing director of our SaaS division, and Ismaila Dien, managing director of our Solutions division. So welcome to you both.
- [02:03]
Jonathan Jackson
Thanks, Amy.
- [02:05]
Amy Vaccaro
So I'll set a little bit of context and then I think we can dig in. I know that folks who are listening to this episode are. I'm imagining they're overloaded with news right now. I know I am. And it can be really overwhelming. So this episode isn't meant to recap news or get into that, but I do want to set the stage a little bit with what we're seeing as of the recording. We're recording this on March 5th. So as of today, we're seeing that USAID has canceled thousands of its projects and indicated it would eliminate 5,800 of the 6,200 multi year contracts, contract awards that it has USAID funding in Previous years accounted for about 43% of humanitarian assistance funds globally. So this is a really huge hit to the aid sector overall. We're also noticing that other governments, the UK and the Netherlands, are speaking about significantly cutting their aid budgets as well. What are we seeing in terms of how this is impacting our partners? And I'll start with you, Ismaila.
- [03:14]
Ismaila Dien
Thank you, emi. And it's a really difficult time, I think even if we forget about the work for a second. Myself, my team and most of us in the company have been working for so many of these partners for years. I'm thinking about people in Madagascar for literally 10 years since I joined the company closest to home. People in Burkina or in Senegal that like from, from the day to the next day have just texted us and say, hey, we're, we've been laid off or we don't have access to our emails anymore. So I think from that point of view, for me it is mostly about the personal impact it has on individuals and that that is really dramatic and really hard for everybody to digest. So I think that's the first piece of it. The other piece of it obviously is just that it's stopping a lot of critical work that was happening. And we see that directly from some of our partners or most of our partners that we're working with under USA contracts or grants, public health campaigns, bed net distribution or vaccination campaigns that just were planned and that were either delayed or stopped because the government partner didn't have that budget available to run those campaigns anymore. So from that perspective, I think it is just like from all angles the personal level, the impact that these programs were having, like we're directly seeing those impacts on since the last like three, five to six weeks. So critical, dramatic and heartbreaking are the words that that comes to mind when I think about the impact on our partners.
- [05:02]
Jonathan Jackson
And we just. Yeah, I think similarly within our part of the company, a lot of Ismail and my clients are the same as my last team, supports organizations with amazing people that are building those apps on the ground. And Ismail, in some ways, like I know your team is so connected, right you're actually physically there and seeing partners and not being able to good offices that are closed down right now. And I think even for us on sas, like we're seeing just massive impact, won't go into like all the organizations that have had significant layoffs, like many who've been our clients, but I think also just for the global development industry as well. I think this is just a moment of even when people have reached out young graduates who want to get into this industry right now. And normally we're all excited to jump on the phone call and talk to them about what that's like at this moment. Like even that I will admit, like sometimes I'm at a loss of words for what to advise right now. And even that's like so many people, it's throwing a really big, I don't know, it's just, it's really like a world changing and like mind changing moment.
- [06:05]
Amy Vaccaro
Yeah, I appreciate both of those sentiments. And yeah, I think ismailic, critical, dramatic, heartbreaking sums it up nicely. And just yeah, what to say to someone like wanting to get into this space is so tricky at this moment. John, what about from your side? What kind of impact are you seeing in your conversations?
- [06:26]
Gillian Javetsky
I mean, it's kind of all encompassing at this point in terms of the impact that it's having across the global development ecosystem. The US government not only funds a huge number of direct life saving essential programs, but also many other multilaterals that are in the middle of trying to raise additional funding and have provided a lot of continuity for some of the most critical interventions such as HIV drugs and vaccines, as Maida mentioned. So it's a huge, huge impact for a lot of people that we work closely with, whether they're kind of big partners that have been around for decades or small new partners that we've been working with. It's just an incredibly uncertain time right now. You know, a lot of people have had funding frozen or don't know what the future of their programming is going to be, creating a lot of uncertainty across their staff, their ability to continue to execute. I've had, you know, tons of discussions with other social enterprise leaders that have been massively affected by changes. So a lot of it right now is kind of just trying to take care of their staff, you know, trying to maintain what they can of their programs on the ground and then trying to figure out like, what's the future look like and when is the future getting here. But I think there's been pretty consistent input from partners that the way everything used to work is kind of gone and what will it look like going forward?
- [07:55]
Amy Vaccaro
And I want to, I definitely want to get into that, those questions of what does the future look like. But even before we go there, I'd love to hear from you all, what are some of the ways that we as dimagi have been and want to be able to support our partners in this time?
- [08:12]
Jonathan Jackson
Yeah, to share some things. I mean, it goes without Saying that we play such a small, small, small drop in the entire puzzle of all of this, and there's so many things that are outside of our control. I think what we're trying to do is our best to do what we can. I think the biggest thing is just knowing and recognizing the moment and knowing that things that maybe felt like right to talk about with partners in December are no longer the right things to be talking about right now. And just being there, being present, being empathetic to what our partners are going through, adapting when we can, recognizing that some of the work we are doing may need to shift. Like an example, on our team, we have quarterly technical working groups with all of our CommCare Enterprise partners, which is something that I know they all really enjoy our team really looks forward to. We have an annual summit for CommCare Enterprise Partners. Both those we've had to rethink and reshape. So you see, like we're not doing our annual summit this year. The timing just didn't feel right, but something we want to get back to when we can. And even technical working groups have taken on a, a different shape of their own. It doesn't feel like maybe right now the right thing to be talking about is like diving into data, data analysis. Like we're using those meetings when we, when we can and when people want to be there to sort of share with each other and use a place where they can hear from other people at other organizations that are going through a really tough time. So I think that's the first thing is just really being there, being cognizant of when not to, you know, bother organizations as well and know those boundaries too.
- [09:43]
Ismaila Dien
And I think on our side, we are trying to be present and meet the moment when we can. And I did a couple of examples. Most of our work is with government supporting them in their digital transformation effort and supporting critical national campaign, health campaigns like in terms of vaccination, bednet distribution, et cetera, et cetera. So a lot of those activities, like I mentioned, were impacted by USAID funding cuts. And what we're trying to do is met these governments where they are right now, meaning we have a couple of countries where they asked us, hey, this is what we have right now. We still have to run this campaign, otherwise people would be impacted. So we, we went and met them where they were and contributed with the means. We have to deploy those systems for two reasons, I think. One is the fact that when there is a lack of resource, using digital is even more important because it will help you optimize and be more efficient. So not having digital would mean that they would probably have to spend more to coordinate some of these campaigns. So I think that's the first thing and I think the second thing is for me, just being a good partner, not disappearing when the money disappear has always been something I have, even when there was USA money in the past, where I have been like pushing for our team to be consistent in that, especially when we work with governments, is to say that we are, we're not here as these vendors, we stick in the hard times and we're here for the good times as well. And then I think for me that that was the moment to do that, especially for, for some of these campaigns, is to be the good partners and be present and support these governments running, running those campaigns. I think the positive thing I see though is that these governments are really trying to make these activities and this campaign happen, even if it means contributing a little bit, even if it's like a tiny bit into on the financial side and as well doing a lot of effort to fundraise. You know what I mean? Nothing. For me that's one of the glimmer of hope I've seen in this situation is seeing people rebound and try to find solution to still bring that impact on the table.
- [12:15]
Jonathan Jackson
I'd add that, yeah, I think like that continuity aspect and people trying to be creative during this time is so important. And that's something too that we're seeing like I think on the continuity side, like the maybe the most important thing we can do is just continue to be there. Right. And both as a partner and also like as a tech platform. Right. Like I think this is a moment too that we don't necessarily know if all tech platforms will be there at the end of this. And the thing that we're committed to is existing and being that foundation for partners. And I think along the lines too, meeting partners where they are as well. There's just been a reckoning too that there's just less funding, less money, less support, less time that our industry is going to face in the future. So one thing we're also concretely doing is Don and I and several members of our team had like a big conversation just around like we're going to be lowering our pricing for comcare. It's something like financially may not be in our interest. It's just something that we need to do right now to meet partners where they are and make that happen. So that's something that we're figuring out the details, we haven't quite nailed down everything, but something that we're committed to doing very quickly in the next month to make that available.
- [13:20]
Gillian Javetsky
Yeah, I think, you know, as you said, Joanne, that the role that technology plays both feels tiny in this moment in some ways, you know, with everything going on. But Ismail, as you said, the potential for it to improve cost effectiveness is massive. And that's certainly what we need right away because the money simply isn't available. And the funding that was available to drive those Budnac campaigns or those vaccine campaigns is far less immediately. And Tuck can play a huge role in still making sure those campaigns can be run effectively, but also looking to the reality of our partners have a lot less funding. And so to Gillian's point, when it was proposed to lower our price, I mean, that doesn't, that doesn't make our P and L look any better. It still felt like obviously the right thing to be doing in this moment to try to create even more value where we can with commcare and some of our other tooling. The other thing that we're doing across the organization during various periods in our history at Tamagi have kind of declared what we call wartime to make sure that people can do whatever they need to do to help our partners to maximize impact. And that's what we're doing right now with all the uncertainty. So, Ismail, I know you're traveling right now in country with one of our government partners. The team was there in a different country currently as well. So we're just getting out, trying to do anything we can to help, trying to help make sure that for the customers that already have our platforms in place that can do a lot with them, how do we help them maximize in this period of time and then internally really thinking about what's the future going to look like for us, what are we going to be able to do to contribute most productively into getting higher impact, higher value for money in the future. But in the immediate term, just trying to help partners who already have the tech in place, already have the ability to use it successfully use it as well as they can in this moment.
- [15:10]
Amy Vaccaro
I'm curious to circle back, Ismail, on something you shared around a few government partners where they. I'm just maybe curious to hear a little bit more about those stories, like where a campaign was impacted and we've been able to kind of jump in and support with, with digitizing it to make it more effective. Can you share a little bit more about those examples?
- [15:31]
Ismaila Dien
Yes, definitely. And I think a few things some of those discussions started with USAID being in the picture. So I am a government, I want to run a vaccination campaign or mass drug administration. I'm supported by several partners. So USAID is here and I have two, three other partners that are supporting to cover basically nationally. So when you said get out of the picture, you could say, hey, let me just work with what I have. But the impact is so massive because you need to think about, okay, what was my planning, what was contributing to digital, not to digital, what was where I was buying the drugs, etc. Etc. So from our point of view, we were already committed before the USA fund cuts to support this campaign and have worked on a plan, on a budget. So the government came back to us and were like, hey, are you guys disappearing? As well as USAID was paying for the system development and the training, et cetera, et cetera. We're no, we're here, we have been here. We're going to work with you. Let's figure out what is available and what can we do with it. And most of the time it meant still providing the highest value but lowering the price as much as we can afford to do it at this point. And then I think that's what I meant by meeting the partner earlier where they were is really still providing as much of the services and the functionalities we have to for this campaign to run effectively. But as well doing it at a price that makes sense because I think it wasn't just about USA money disappearing and them using the other funding they have. It's about them as well in some of these countries putting money on the table from their own budget. And then I think that's something for me that was like, okay, it's a no brainer. Like they are, they are doing the gymnastics to make this happen. We shouldn't be the one failing at this moment to be present.
- [17:40]
Amy Vaccaro
Yeah, I really, I appreciate that story, Ismail. I think that's just such a powerful testament to DiMaggi's commitment to being that true partner, that long term partner focused on outcomes alongside her partners. So we've touched on this a little bit around like what does all of this mean for Dimagi specifically?
- [18:01]
Jonathan Jackson
Right.
- [18:01]
Amy Vaccaro
We've talked about, John mentioned kind of turning on this wartime mode to make sure that we're able to be really nimble and responsive. We've talked about making Commcare more accessible, lowering the price, really reaffirming our support for partners. Curious, what else comes to mind for folks in terms of what, what does this mean for Demangi as a company.
- [18:24]
Gillian Javetsky
Yeah, I mean, we're, we're still debating that internally and going through a lot of different iterations and ideas, getting a lot of input from external advisors right now. But the reality is, you know, the market of these big project based funding cycles could be gone in the future. You know, the, the entire ecosystem that we used to support, all of Gillian's partners, all of his minus partners that are doing these kind of three to five year project cycles. A lot of that was driven by US government funding, by multilateral funding coming from the US government. So we don't know what the future is going to look like. But, but it could look quite different in terms of even the way that aid is contracted. What the market freight even defined as in the future could be different. So we think the future is going to look quite different than the past, but we don't know what exactly that is. A few things we believe, one is there's going to be less money, full stop. We don't know where it's going to go, we don't know how it's going to flow, but there's just going to be less of it no matter what happens. Two, the trend of local service providers playing a critical role is even going to be more important in the future. Three, we think the ability to prove you're adding a lot of cost effectiveness with your solution is going to be necessary. And four, 2025 is going to be really hard for everybody. We don't think this is changing soon. We think 2025 is going to be a really difficult year for the industry, for Tamagi, for all of our partners. We're hoping that 2026 and beyond starts to look better. But we're planning for, you know, a lot of challenge in this year. Some of the things that we're proud of that we were already trying to do though was, you know, be cost effective, make sure that people were valuing the technology because they believed in its impact on the health system, not because they were trying to check a box on a project, you know, budget. And unfortunately there was a lot of that happening, you know, in health systems and ecosystems. And as Milo said, one of the things I'm most proud of, how many calls he's gotten and his team has gotten to try to help even more, kind of proving the value of everything we've been doing to try to work with Comcare and our partners has been there. Kelly, on the suretier side, who does our video observed therapy business, very similar people calling and trying to use the product even more. And so some of that is heartening for us as a company to have that confidence from our partners and our clients, showing that the technology and the approach that we've been taking is really valued. And we've talked about this before on the podcast, you know, you can doubt that it is truly creating value in a lot of the environments that we've tried to support. So to see that really immediately being proven true and being able to rise to the challenge is something I'm really proud of. But we're really trying to think how do we shift what we offer to the future market? How do we shift what we want to do? We have an amazing team on the technology side, we have an amazing team on the delivery side. How do we make sure we're streamlining impact even more? And some of the ideas we've talked about here on the podcast with Impact Delivery with our new product, CommCare Connect with a lot of different areas. I think they were, they were the right story then. They're an even more important story now in terms of value for money. Doing more with less, you know, and making sure the money is getting to frontline organizations and frontline workers to deliver on the impact they can. So that's all things that we have to figure out. How we're going to do an even better job than we were doing before on those areas, how we're going to do that with even less money than we had before and how to bring that together. But I'm confident that we as an organization and that with all of our ecosystem and our partners will find ways to create even more cost effective impact. So that's one silver lining. But there's just so much uncertainty ahead and we're kind of recognizing that and doing the best we can to support each other, support our staff, support our partners, and ultimately and most importantly, support the clients that we're trying to serve. But it's going to be real hard in 2025, unfortunately.
- [22:40]
Ismaila Dien
Yeah. And for me there is this thing that in times of chaos and challenges, that's where the best ideas and the best things come out of those problem. I think there is a pressure create diamonds or something like that. I'm not an English speaker, so you can correct me on that. So I think for me that's that mentality. I am pushing my team to be in that mentality. We literally like a few weeks ago had a ideation goal for the team to really submit ideas around how we can just tackle this period from team effectiveness, new solutions, innovations and then we're going around that to see what we can propose. It's really important for me because the aid money can be gone, but the problems are still here. Like the challenges we are still facing are still here. And we have to find solutions. Like, for me, that's the core of our mission, is finding those solutions. Now it's going to be more difficult, more challenging, less resources. But like I was just saying before, I've been at DiMaggi for 10 years, so when I step back, I see, I see the, despite all these challenges, I see the progress, especially on the maturity of my government partners in terms of digital and how they see the value of it, how we can really help address the challenges on the health sector, etc. Etc. So for me, like, it's all about like, not settling. And this is a sad time and really difficult time. But I'm telling my team, let's forget about it now. Like, it's, it's been three weeks. We, we're, we took it, we took it in hard and recognizing it's way more challenging than it even looks for for some people. But we have to move forward and, and because that's our responsibility, not to just ask because we're losing jobs, et cetera. It's really bad and sad. But there are people really dying and suffering down the line. And for me, that's what we want to keep an eye on and that's why we're really extra motivated to find the right solution even in this difficult time.
- [24:52]
Jonathan Jackson
Yes, I like that the diamond part of this and finding that tone with the team is a hard one. I think it's something that we've also talked about as a team too, where having moments where we're on a call with a client and you can just tell that they've had a really hard week or they just, they went through layoffs yesterday, or you can just tell them that they've been like, crying. Right? Like, it's just taking those moments to be their support and empathize. And when you've taken a breath, going and recognizing that we also have an opportunity and are lucky to be able to make changes that like, candidly are also like, good changes we probably should have made before. Right. Like some of these things. I'm looking at the list of things that we've been working on making Commcare more affordable, like making a platform that is easier for others to access, that maybe doesn't need so many people in an organization to work on. We also are committed very much now to setting up an EU server for CommCare. Right. Like these are all like good things to do as well. And I think it reflecting back, like it shouldn't have taken this big of a moment, like this monumental thing to mix some of these things. But there are so many diamonds that we can leverage and have an opportunity as an organization to, to work on.
- [26:00]
Amy Vaccaro
Yeah, I appreciate that. And I think the, the line from Ismaila, like the money can be gone, but the problems are still here and we have to find solutions like that. I feel like that's just such a clear distillation. And Jillian, to your point, like these, these things that we're working on, like they were already important and now they're just like on fire important. Right. So there's just a lot more urgency and hopefully some more clarity too. John, how are you thinking about where we're headed, both DiMaggi and the broader sector that we work in?
- [26:34]
Gillian Javetsky
Yeah, I think, you know, as Asmaila said, it's, it's important to try to figure out how to move forward. That doesn't, that doesn't lessen the emotional pain of, of what we're going through with partners been working with for, you know, decades in my case. But it is important that we keep driving value, keep figuring out what we can do now and what we can do tomorrow. I think for us, we're kind of being very aggressive and doubling down as an organization on trying to figure out where is digital going to drive huge beneficial, cost effective impact in programs that are critical. And we know some of the obvious essential programs like vaccine campaigns, like malaria campaigns, neglected tropical diseases, those are gonna be critical. Improving just internal organizational efficiency. Like these orgs are the ones creating only impact on the ground. They need tools to be able to run their business as efficiently as possible. So some of the bread and butter stuff isn't going anywhere. We're here to stay with it. We're gonna create, creating impact with it. But also the big new innovation areas that we were focused on as Domagi have gotten even more attention. We're racing to mobilize our technology development faster. We're definitely trading speed for quality at this point to try to just get these tools out so people can start using them, giving us feedback. We've already had amazing adoption on a lot of the work that we've been doing across AI with CommCare Connect. I think we've shared here. So those three remain huge priorities for us. But it all really comes together in trying to take more accountability as dimagi for the impact that we can create. We think there's going to be less funding around. So the ability to simply be in a position to enable others is something we're going to continue doing. But we're also looking for ways where we can kind of be directly accountable for impact as well as an organization, which is something we'd be proud to do and something we've always kind of debated internally. And I think now's the moment to rise to that challenge going forward because we're going to need more creative ways to create direct impact on the ground as we try to make each dollar go further. So a lot continuing to help support the current partners, there's going to be a lot of that, too. Some of the reason the programs existed in the first place to Asmata's point, is people need drugs, people need support, people need ways to take better care of themselves. And that's going to be true tomorrow, even though the funding situation is quite different. And then people are going to need much more cost effective and much more innovative ways to drive that value going forward as well. So we're going to be doing both.
- [29:06]
Amy Vaccaro
Yeah. Thank you so much, Jillian. Or smile at any final parting words you, you want to share with our audience.
- [29:15]
Jonathan Jackson
I think it's just so right now, like, even, even this podcast, right? Like, I think there is one moment where we smiled in this, right? Like, it just, it feels like I, it's a dark moment here. And I think both John and is smile. I appreciate you both pointing out like the diamonds that we can make in this, right. And I think focusing on that now that maybe some like the shock is out of our system and focusing on that is what is bringing me optimism of looking forward. One of our partners who's been on this podcast too, Nora Lindstrom from Catholic Relief Services, had a really, I just found like a really inspiring LinkedIn post where she just said like, for anyone who's like questioning going through this moment right now, like, don't leave global development, right. There's like moments too where it's like this industry is important because the problems still do exist, right. And it's going to look very different and jobs may look very different and like the structure and everything. And maybe in some cases there will be improvements even if it doesn't feel like that today. But I think that's the part that I am looking forward to the next time we're all together on this podcast to see what are those things that we've been able to do and what are some of those diamonds that we can find.
- [30:17]
Ismaila Dien
Maybe I'll finish on my side with a word of advice for those who don't know me, and I'm sure nobody knows me out there outside of the company. I'm considered as the person who don't stress or who don't panic or who don't take anything. Like, I'm always like, balance. I'm in the middle and never too high, never too low. And I know that's something that not natural for everyone, but I think you can practice it. And I'll tell this story. I'm gonna get killed for it, but I'm still telling this story. These guys are laughing because they know about the story. But the word advice is grounding and focusing on what you can control and what you can do. And the story is, my wife was giving birth of our first child, but now nine years ago, and the doctor was like, hey, we're going to do a C section. You have to get out of the room. We're going to prepare her, go to the waiting room and we'll call you when she's ready. So I went there and I fell asleep. It was four in the morning. I was super tired and the only thing that was in my control at that time was sleeping to catch up, to be the best husband I can be once she's delivered her baby. And that's what I've done. Now, the fun part of the story is that they forgot me there and I almost missed the birth, but they got me just a few minutes before and I think I made a mistake by telling to my wife that I was sleeping at that time. But anyway, forget about the story. All that to say that I think it's going to be really important for people to be fully grounded and really focus on really what we all can do. And I think that's from more junior people in our team that still have a lot of work to do in our existing portfolio of projects to more senior people that need to be more innovative and think about other ways of doing outreach or new solutions to propose, et cetera, et cetera. And I think obviously different partners are impacted differently, but I think finding that way to really focus on what we have in front of us will help us really kill the noise around us and make the best out of what we have in front of us. So. So for me, that's my word of advice. Obviously, don't sleep if your wife is giving birth. That's not a good idea. But for the rest, you can, you can try to do that.
- [32:55]
Amy Vaccaro
I love that story. Ismaila, thank you so much for for ending us there. And thank you to each of you for for joining today. Thank you to Ismaila and Jillian for joining today. Here are a couple of my takeaways the aid money might be gone, but the problems are still here. There's much less funding for critical life saving work, but that work is just as urgent. We have to find ways to keep moving forward. This impact isn't just numbers on a spreadsheet, it's personal. Layoffs, disrupted health campaigns and uncertainty are hitting people and organizations hard. Partnerships matter more now than ever. Demangi is committed to being there for our part, partners adapting our approach, lowering costs and finding ways to keep critical programs running even when resources are scarce. Cost effectiveness will be key and digital solutions can help with fewer resources. Smart scalable tools will play a bigger role in ensuring aid reaches those who need it most. And finally, resilience and creativity will drive change. As as Maila put it, pressure creates diamonds. This is a really challenging moment in time and also a bit of a forcing function to rethink and improve how aid is delivered. That's our show. Please like Rate, Review, subscribe and share this episode if you found it useful. It really helps us grow our impact and write to us@podcastemagi.com with any ideas, comments or feedback. This show is executive produced by myself. Parthana Balachander and Michael Kelleher are our producers and cover art is by Siddharthukanth.