Episode 05: Restricted Area

Summary

High Strange – Episode 05: “Restricted Area”

Release Date: March 6, 2026
Host: Payne Lindsey (Tenderfoot TV/iHeartPodcasts)
Theme: Dissecting the legend and credibility of Bob Lazar, the implications of his claims about Area 51, and how we decide what counts as knowledge or evidence in the UFO/UAP mystery.

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode takes a deep dive into the legacy of Bob Lazar, the polarizing whistleblower who claimed to have worked at Area 51 reverse-engineering alien technology. Payne Lindsey and guests explore Lazar’s controversial story, dissect the evidence and unanswered questions, and use prominent scientists like Gary Nolan and Jacques Vallee to interrogate what we count as “evidence” when it comes to the unexplainable. Ultimately, the episode is less about reaching a definitive answer and more about challenging the frameworks we use to make sense of high strangeness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Bob Lazar Phenomenon

[02:44–06:21]

• Recap of Bob Lazar’s explosive claims: He alleges direct involvement in reverse-engineering alien spacecraft at Area 51 (specifically at a site called S4), having seen nine different extraterrestrial craft.

• Context: Overnight, Area 51 became a cultural icon. Regardless of belief, his narrative ignited mass interest in UFOs and government secrecy.

  “He described a job. Not a moment in the sky, but a workplace, a schedule, a commute, a chain of command.”
  — Narrator/Host [03:30]

• Highlights the stakes: If he’s lying, it’s extraordinary; if he’s telling the truth, it’s one of the most monumental revelations in human history.

  “If Lazar is lying, it’s an extraordinary lie, Lynn. And if he’s telling the truth, it’s one of the most important revelations in human history. There is no middle ground.”
  — Narrator/Host [05:10]

2. Breaking Down the Propulsion Claims

[06:21–09:07]

• Lazar’s unique, technical descriptions of the craft’s propulsion: Gravity amplifiers, space-time distortion, and “non reactionary” motion (travel without thrust).

  “They run gravity amplifiers. There’s no physical hookup between any of the systems in there. They use gravity as a wave ... Traveling these distances does require a level of technology that man has not yet achieved ... we can distort the space time and in turn, the distance between the point where we are and the point where we want to be.”
  — Bob Lazar [06:46]

• Payne Lindsey’s reflection: Lazar’s explanation is the first time “it made sense from a point of physics," even if extraordinary.

  “If what he said is true, then the distance between stars and galaxies no longer matters ... if that’s true, dude, I gotta find out.”
  — Payne Lindsey [08:17]

3. Evidence and Anomalies in Lazar’s Record

[09:07–14:41]

• Employment: Despite official denials, independent evidence (phone books, news clippings, footage) confirms Lazar’s time at Los Alamos Lab.

• However, there are major, suspicious gaps regarding his claimed MIT and Caltech degrees—it becomes “impossible to hold together in a clean way.”

  “Physical evidence refuses to cooperate with that denial. Phone books, newspaper clippings, actual video footage from Los Alamos. This is where the Bob Lazar story becomes impossible to hold together in a clean way.”
  — Narrator/Host [11:36]

• Security and secrecy: Lazar describes S4 as an oppressive, intimidating environment where fear was a control mechanism.

  “Security at S4 was oppressive, Lazar says, and his superiors used fear and intimidation almost as a brainwashing tool.”
  — George Knapp [14:13]

4. Assessing Lazar’s Credibility

[15:37–20:19]

• Discrepancies in educational record prompt three possible explanations:

  1. Lazar lied about his education.
  2. His educational records were scrubbed by someone.
  3. There’s something Lazar isn’t telling us about the nature of his education.

  “I gave you three possibilities. Maybe we don’t know the full story. That’s how I would write the ship for you.”
  — Payne Lindsey [19:35]

• Reflection on “value assignment”: How much do unresolved or questionable details matter if there’s corroborating evidence in other areas?

• Payne emphasizes transparency: If Lazar was lying, “I would have already said so ... Lazar has never, ever been disingenuous with me.” [22:06]

5. From Personal Drama to Epistemic Questions

[21:19–23:34]

• The narrative shifts from Lazar’s personal credibility to broader questions of knowledge, evidence, and skepticism.

• The episode stresses the difference between undermining a person’s character and the veracity of their testimony.

  “You should be disturbed by certain lacks of information in the Bob Lazar report ... It would make logical sense for you to be a little bit like, well, wait a second there.”
  — Payne Lindsey [22:06]

• Modern military confirmation: The Pentagon recently admitted to studying UFOs/UAPs, lending circumstantial credence to Lazar’s core claims about secret investigation into alien technology.
  — Erin Andrews, George Knapp [23:25–23:48]

6. What Counts as Evidence? A Philosophical Framework

[27:09–35:30]

• Enter Gary Nolan & Jacques Vallee: Renowned thinkers and scientists discuss how data, evidence, and proof are defined and contextualized in science—and why this matters for the UFO phenomenon.

Key Insights:

• The internet and global networks have democratized information, but also increased noise.

• Cataloguing and formal investigation are crucial—“you don’t need authorization” to build your own statistical catalog (Gary Nolan [28:08]).

• Data ≠ Evidence ≠ Proof: Evidence is contextualized data, not the same as scientific proof.

  “Evidence is not proof. Evidence is no more proof in biology or UAP UFOs than it is in a courtroom. Evidence is evidence.”
  — Jacques Vallee [31:53]

• Perception is subjective and malleable; “in court ... one witness saw a blue car, another saw a red car. Both are telling the truth as they experienced it.”
  — Gary Nolan [32:38]

• In science, conclusions are incremental and provisional, not absolute.

  “Scientists are right today, wrong tomorrow, but righter the next day. ... It's an incremental reinterpretation of reality.”
  — Jacques Vallee [33:31]

• Ultimate humility is needed; our current understanding of time and space may be wholly incorrect. Physicists now teach these are mere constructs.
  — Gary Nolan, Jacques Vallee [35:30]

7. Closing Reflections

[43:35–End]

• Payne Lindsey underscores the importance of nuance, tone, body language, and the limits of tidy evidence when dealing with “high strangeness.”

• The human element—how these stories affect and are carried by people—is as important as physical or documented evidence.

  “This show is not just about what people say happened. It’s about how they carry it. How it sits with them, how it shaped the way they move through the world.”
  — Payne Lindsey [43:35]

• Teaser for next episode: A broader team discussion, more stories, and another season promised with even more exploration of the mysterious.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the implications if Lazar is truthful:

  “If what he said is true, then the distance between stars and galaxies no longer matters ... if that’s true, dude, I gotta find out.”
  — Payne Lindsey [08:17]

• On evidence:

  “Evidence is not proof. Evidence is no more proof in biology or UAP UFOs than it is in a courtroom. Evidence is evidence.”
  — Jacques Vallee [31:53]

• On perception and truth:

  “Reality is a construct of my brain based on my perceptions. And my perceptions are limited, and they are limited by my culture. They are biased by, you know, my beliefs.”
  — Gary Nolan [34:04]

• On re-framing the debate:

  “Instead of arguing about Bob Lazar as a person, let's widen the frame. The deeper question is about how we decide what counts as knowledge, what do we accept as evidence? And how much uncertainty are we willing to take before we stop looking?”
  — Narrator/Host [21:19/43:35]

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Timestamps by Topic

• [02:44] – Introduction to Lazar’s claims and impact
• [06:46] – Technical description of “alien” propulsion
• [09:07] – Calls for scientific transparency; Lazar’s stated motives
• [10:29] – The mystery of missing educational and employment records
• [13:10] – “Sport Model” disc, hangar stories from S4
• [14:21] – Lazar’s claims of intimidation and security at S4
• [15:37] – The question of falsehoods and the story’s fragility
• [17:27] – Triangulating the possible explanations for Lazar’s background
• [21:19] – Discussion shifts to how we decide what counts as knowledge/evidence
• [28:08] – Narrative handoff to Gary Nolan and Jacques Vallee’s frameworks
• [31:53] – Data, evidence, proof, and the scientific method
• [34:04] – Personal perception, philosophy of experience
• [35:30] – Crisis and humility in contemporary physics
• [43:35] – Payne’s closing reflection; human experience vs. tidy evidence
• [44:30] – Tease for the next episode and season three reveal

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Episode Tone & Language

The tone is thoughtful, curious, and skeptical but never dismissive. Language is accessible but occasionally technical when quoting Lazar or discussing scientific frameworks. The hosts and guests emphasize open-mindedness, the value of uncertainty, and the humility required for honestly confronting the unknown.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode serves as a quintessential look at the stakes and peculiarities of UFO/UAP investigation. Through the lens of Bob Lazar—neither fully vindicated nor fully disproven—the show pushes listeners to think deeply about the nature of truth, evidence, and the limits of conventional frameworks. Rather than seeking tidy conclusions, it argues for embracing ambiguity, multidisciplinary investigation, and humility in the quest to understand the “high strange.”

Transcript

[Payne Lindsey]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Guaranteed Human hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for store wide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Oreo, Haagen, Dazs, Charmin, Tide, Sparkling Ice, Reese's and Special K. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for terms and conditions.

[Narrator/Host]

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[Erin Andrews]

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[Gary Nolan]

Do thy ticket lady Jennifer of Coolidge

[Ryan Seacrest]

well, many thanks good sir.

[Erin Andrews]

Here is my Discover card.

[Jacques Vallee]

They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs?

[Gary Nolan]

Yeah they do here.

[Erin Andrews]

Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Get it with the times.

[Gary Nolan]

With the times. You're playing the loot.

[Erin Andrews]

Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right?

[Bob Lazar]

Discover is accepted at 99% of places

[George Knapp]

that take credit cards nationwide, based on

[Payne Lindsey]

the February 2025 Nielsen report.

[Tenderfoot TV Announcer]

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[Narrator/Host]

High Strange is released every Friday and brought to you absolutely free. But for ad free listening exclusive bonuses access to episodes. Subscribe to Tenderfoot plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast and do not represent those of iHeartRadio, Tinderfoot TV or their employees. This podcast also contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.

[George Knapp]

News articles once Again mentioned the talk about alien spacecraft. And subsequent articles in national magazines quoted unnamed sources about things of alien origin flying in Nevada out of nowhere, like

[Payne Lindsey]

a scirocco in the desert, he was in silhouette. He comes forward on the news and says, we are reverse engineering alien spacecraft at a place called Area 51, which you haven't heard about, but it's out there in the Nevada desert. Nine flying saucers. And I was part of that program, and now I'm worried about my life. I feel a threat to my personal safety. That's my story. That's it. Died.

[Narrator/Host]

The story of Bob Lazar will never go quietly. He described a job. Not a moment in the sky, but a workplace, a schedule, a commute, a chain of command. He said, we're reverse engineering alien spacecraft at a place you've never heard of. That place was Area 51.

[George Knapp]

He says he was hired to work at an area called S4. At S4, he says, are flying saucers, technology that is seemingly beyond human capability.

[Narrator/Host]

And overnight, a classified military test site became a cultural obsession.

[George Knapp]

Lazar's story is, by any standards, fantastic. He says he's telling it in order to protect himself.

[Payne Lindsey]

So George Knapp was like, who is this Lazar guy? His news people were like, is this true? Because I don't know. I'm going to find out.

[George Knapp]

This week we've heard the contention of UFO researchers that there's a secret government within our government. It's a chilling scenario with worldwide implications that may have its roots right here. Area 51, that mysterious corner of the Nevada test site, is no longer much of a secret. The fact that secretive things go on here is a given even to the Soviets, who make daily spy flights over the facility to take a peek at what's going on.

[Narrator/Host]

The question was not just, is this true? It was, who is this guy?

[Payne Lindsey]

Very polarizing figure. If people look into the UFO world, can we believe him? Can we not? Does he have a sordid past? Is he a liar?

[Narrator/Host]

If Lazar is lying, it's an extraordinary lie, Lynn. And if he's telling the truth, it's one of the most important revelations in human history. There is no middle ground.

[Payne Lindsey]

I was 13 years old then I hear on the radio Bob Lazar's voice and George Knapp interviewing him. And that was like my gateway drug. That's where my curiosity got weaponized.

[George Knapp]

Strange stories of lights in the night sky. No one who's worked at Dreamland has ever publicly acknowledged what so many people have suspected for years. That alien technology is being tested in The Nevada desert.

[Bob Lazar]

It's a very interesting building. It's got a slope of probably about 30 degrees, which are hangar doors. Nine flying saucers, flying discs of extraterrestrial origin. It's there. I saw it. This came from somewhere else. As bizarre as that is to believe, I know what the current state of the art is and physics, and it can't be done.

[Narrator/Host]

He says.

[George Knapp]

He was never told exactly what he'd be working on, but figured it had something to do with advanced propulsion. On his first day, he was told to read a series of briefings and immediately realized how advanced the propulsion was.

[Payne Lindsey]

You're like, okay, well, is this possibly true? The one thing he said that blew my mind was the way Balbazar described the propulsion system.

[Bob Lazar]

They run gravity amplifiers. There's no physical hookup between any of the systems in there. They use gravity as a wave, using waveguides almost like microwaves. Traveling these distances does require a level of technology that man has not yet achieved. But it has nothing to do with flying in a linear mode, near the speed of light, we can distort the space time and in turn, the distance between the point where we are and the point where we want to be.

[Narrator/Host]

Lazar doesn't talk like a storyteller. He talks like someone describing a machine. Gravity amplifiers, non reactionary propulsion, I mean, are they just cool buzzwords, or does he actually know what he's talking about?

[Payne Lindsey]

When you have a craft that's propelled by something, most things are reactionary propulsion. Rockets to roller skates. You push something out the back, you move forward. The thing that Lazar said publicly, that really struck me, he said this was a non reactionary propulsion system. You can move through time and space. You can move somewhere without pushing something out the back. And I'm like, what does that mean? It's like you push your fist into a bed, and you've got a bowling ball on that bed, and the bowling ball falls into the divot where you put your fist falling into place. If what he said is true, then the distance between stars and galaxies no longer matters. Because the big argument was, of course, there's life out there in the universe. If you had a propulsion system that negated the entire dilemma you have of distance, time, and space, then there's no boundary that's stopping contact from other civilizations. So all these things, people see disks in the sky for thousands of years. Well, there's a possibility it could be true. So first time I heard it explained in a way that made sense from a point of physics. And I Thought, holy shit, if what he's saying is true, then distance doesn't matter. And if that's true, dude, I gotta find out.

[Bob Lazar]

The hardware and technology I was exposed to should be placed in the proper hands of the scientific community. There is physical evidence which proves that there is life elsewhere and that at least one form of that life has been here.

[Narrator/Host]

Lazar says he worked at S4, south of Groom Lake, inside hangars built into the desert. Altogether, he claims to have seen nine craft, all different, all beyond human capability.

[Payne Lindsey]

What Bob Lazar said then, it is imperative that people try to understand what he meant by that and try to figure out for themselves if he is worthy of your trust.

[Narrator/Host]

And then the story fractures.

[Payne Lindsey]

When he came forward, whether you believe it or not, the idea was that he was worried about his safety and his well being. I know everybody who was with him at that time. They don't even like each other anymore. Some of them, they don't get along. They all agree on one thing. What Bob said happened, happened. He was temporarily employed trying to reverse engineer these UFOs. Immediately when he came forward, George Knapp tried to dig into these claims and say, what can I prove? What is real? What is not real?

[Narrator/Host]

Schools deny, his education agencies deny. His employment records just disappear.

[George Knapp]

Checking out Lazar's credentials proved to be a difficult task. He says he earned degrees in physics and electronics, but the schools we contacted say they've never heard of him. He also said he worked as a physicist at Los Alamos National Lab, where he experimented with one of the world's largest particle beam accelerators. A half mile long behemoth capable of generating 700 million volts.

[Payne Lindsey]

Very clearly worked at Los Alamos because guess what? George Knapp went there. Bob let him in. There's video of that.

[George Knapp]

Los Alamos officials told us they had no records of a Robert Lazar ever working there. They were either mistaken or were lying. A 1982 phone book from the lab lists Lazar right there among the other scientists and technicians. A 1982 clipping from the Los Alamos newspaper profiled Lazar and his interest in jet cars. It too mentioned his employment at the lab as a physicist.

[Narrator/Host]

At the same time, physical evidence refuses to cooperate with that denial. Phone books, newspaper clippings, actual video footage from Los Alamos. This is where the Bob Lazar story becomes impossible to hold together in a clean way.

[Payne Lindsey]

Obviously worked at Los Alamos, but why did they tell George Knapp that he didn't work there, never worked there? They don't know what he's talking about.

[George Knapp]

We called Los Alamos again. An exasperated official told us he still had no records on Lazar. EG and G, which is where Lazar says he was interviewed for the job at S4. Also has no records. It's as if someone has made him disappear.

[Bob Lazar]

Well, they're trying to make me a non person.

[George Knapp]

Explain. You called where?

[Bob Lazar]

Well, the schools that I went to, the hospital that I was born at, past job. And essentially nothing comes up with my name in it.

[George Knapp]

He smiles, but out of futility, knowing the whole thing must sound ridiculous. According to Lazar, his employer was the United States Navy. He says he and other government employees would gather near EG&G, fly to Groom Lake, then a very few people would get into a bus with blacked out or no windows and drive to S4. It took a while, Lazar says, before he actually saw one of the flying discs. However, there were hints everywhere.

[Bob Lazar]

They had a poster, and it looked like a commercial poster, almost like it was lithographed and you could buy it at a Kmart or something. But they were all over the place. And it had the disc that I coined the term the sport model.

[Tenderfoot TV Announcer]

The sport model?

[George Knapp]

His name for the craft stashed in the desert.

[Bob Lazar]

When I was let in, it was the first time I saw the sport model in the hangar sitting down. And I was told they could have walked me in the front door, but they purposely wanted to walk me by it. I was told not to say anything and just keep my eyes forward and walk past the disc into the office area. As we went by it, I just kind of stuck my hands on it just to run it alongside the thing. And after that, I got to see it actually lift off the ground and operate. The hangars are all connected together, and there are large bay doors between each one. And there were nine total that I saw, each one being different.

[George Knapp]

Security at S4 was oppressive, Lazar says, and his superiors used fear and intimidation almost as a brainwashing tool.

[Bob Lazar]

Did everything but physically hurt me.

[George Knapp]

What, a gun gear head?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. Guards here with M16s and guys slamming their finger into my chest, screaming in my ear, some people pointing weapons at me. It's not a good place to work.

[Narrator/Host]

Either he lied about parts of his background, or someone tried very hard to erase him.

[Bob Lazar]

Fall I've just presented to you is true and the government is keeping this a secret. How can I make a video telling you about it? Well, the bottom line is if there are any repercussions for making this video, it would simply confirm that what I Told you is true. So what you do with this information is up to you. What's going on up there could be the most important event in history. You're talking about contact. Physical. Physical contact and proof from another. Another system, another planet, another intelligence. That's got to be the biggest event in history. Period. I am telling the truth. I've tried to prove that.

[Narrator/Host]

Not every detail is perfect. So the question becomes, does one false truth or unresolved mystery collapse this story altogether?

[Tenderfoot TV Announcer]

We have people ostensibly with credentials who are frauds and who have vlommed onto pop culture. Robert Scott Lazar, supposedly a nuclear physicist with a master's in physics from mit, a master in electronics from Caltech who supposedly worked at Area 51 back engineering flying saucers. I did a lot of checking on Bob. I tried to meet with him twice. I was supposed to on one occasion, and he didn't go along. I checked at mit. I checked at Caltech. Neither one ever heard of them. Well, but the government wiped his records clean as the response. I talked to the legal counsel at mit. No way to do that. I talked with the guy who has the degrees, the commencement lists and all that sort of thing. No mention of Lazarus. None of the yearbooks show Lazar, for a master's degree, you need a thesis. I talked to the guy who holds those. No, Lazar. Hide them there. And the story goes on and on beyond that. And I get people telling me, well, I don't see why you don't believe him. He seems so sincere. Sincerity is not a check on truth.

[Narrator/Host]

So if you go back in his history and he talks about going to college, there's no record of him being at this college. How is that? So what is the explanation for that?

[Payne Lindsey]

Okay, so let's open this up so your audience understands. So now we're going to like. One of the points of contention, one of the first things George Knapp couldn't confirm was Bob Lazar's education history. There are certain things he couldn't ever prove. Doesn't mean they didn't happen. Just George couldn't prove him. So in the first report, he goes, I cannot verify his claimed educational roles, what he said that he had. So it leaves you with one of three options. Either Bob Lazar lied about his educational history. That doesn't negate the fact that he did work at Los Alamos. And doesn't negate the fact of what we now know about his employment out at the test range. Area 51. That's version one. Okay, I'll accept that if that's true already you've got one thing.

[Gary Nolan]

Cool.

[Payne Lindsey]

Does it make the difference? For me, it's a part of it. Maybe I just want to know, is he a liar? What is the value of that to you? Maybe you're trying to figure out if he's a liar.

[Narrator/Host]

Well, it's like if you're on trial and this person had a history of lying about this, the defense would use that. That's ev.

[Payne Lindsey]

You know, you look at the idea of, well, what's the other options? The other option is that back in the 80s or 89, when things were not as digital as they are now, could you. And would you scrub elements of his educational background? Okay, I could see some of that happening. So then the third option is, what if Bob Lazarus hasn't told us everything? What if he did have education at those schools he claimed, but he was maybe protecting a little bit the exact nature of that education? That's something that maybe Bob can talk about if he ever wants to. But that's a third option I want people to keep on the table. When you bring up one aspect of the Bob Lazar case that is on your mind, you have to assign it a value. Like, how important is that? If we already know he worked at Area 51, we have some proof of that. Like, I have people that testified they saw him there. So then you have to assign a value to that. How much value does that one thing have for you? I gave you three possibilities. Maybe we don't know the full story. That's how I would write the ship for you. The educational background of Bob Lazar is that maybe there's something that we don't fully understand yet, or he's lying, or. Or they scrubbed it. Assign a value to that. Just keep an open mind. If I found out he was lying, I would have already said so, and

[Narrator/Host]

I could swallow the pill. That if he came forward and said, hey, man, I lied about this, I think he's more credible if he told me that.

[Payne Lindsey]

But just to be fundamentally clear, my understanding, like my belief, I guess my direct knowledge is that Balazar's telling you how it is, and there's probably more to hear from him. The other thing I think you should consider, if there's tons of evidence in the favor of Bob having experienced what he said he did, we can't dismiss all of that based upon a few things that are unlooped for. You don't discount. There is a mountain of evidence. The other thing you can reconcile is that it is possible that someone like Bob Lazar is the perfect person to bring into a program. Rocket Guy, He's a pirate. If you wanted to discredit Bob, you can do it.

[Narrator/Host]

The bottom line is some things add up, some things do not. And there's no one explanation that covers all of it, at least in a clean way. So instead of arguing about Bob Lazar as a person, let's widen the frame. The deeper question is about how we decide what counts as knowledge, what do we accept as evidence? And how much uncertainty are we willing to take before we stop looking.

[Erin Andrews]

More than a dozen agents serving federal search warrants.

[Tenderfoot TV Announcer]

Tate News now chief investigator George Knapp

[Narrator/Host]

now with the exclusive story.

[George Knapp]

Secrecy has always been paramount at Area 51, a once obscure outpost in the

[Tenderfoot TV Announcer]

Nevada desert that might be the world's

[George Knapp]

best known secret base.

[Payne Lindsey]

He was pulled into court in crazy ways. Pulled into court for setting up a security system for a brothel. Bob had a crazy life. And when you talk about discrediting the messenger so you can discredit the message, that's where it gets sticky. Just because you can discredit somebody from a, what, a moral standpoint doesn't mean what they're saying ain't true. You should be disturbed by certain lacks of information in the Bob Lazar report, in what he has reported to us. It would make logical sense for you to be a little bit like, well, wait a second there, wait a second there. I was trying to catch Bob Lazar. And a lie absolutely every day for my own knowledge. And I'm sorry to report, Bazaar has never, ever been disingenuous with me. Not even disingenuous. He gave me access to everything.

[Tenderfoot TV Announcer]

Thirty years ago today, KLAS aired a

[Jacques Vallee]

live interview with an anonymous man who

[Tenderfoot TV Announcer]

made some really astonishing claims. He alleged that the US Military was secretly studying alien technology out of The Nevada desert. Area 51.

[Erin Andrews]

A lot has changed in the decades since Bob Lazar first told this wild story. The Pentagon recently admitted that it really

[Bob Lazar]

has been secretly studying UFOs.

[Erin Andrews]

And then it wanted to figure out and duplicate that technology.

[George Knapp]

Pentagon officials reluctantly admitted to the New York Times that the military has secretly studied UFO incidents in part so it

[Narrator/Host]

might figure out the technology.

[Payne Lindsey]

It is what it is. But ultimately, I wasn't there. I don't know for fact that everything he saw was what he thinks it was. The mysterious case of Bob Lazar. He's a hell of a guy, a really good person, and that's more important to me than flying saucers.

[George Knapp]

Foreign.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's Stock up savings time now through March 31st. Bring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn uneligible items from Activia, General Mills, Nature Valley, A W, Monster Energy Coffee Mate, and Pete's Coffee. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for terms and conditions.

[Erin Andrews]

Hey, it's Erin Andrews and Carissa Thompson and we did a live episode from San Francisco where we broke down one of the most surprising matchups in years. Shared a perfectly awkward moment by me, of course, and talk about the importance of putting yourself and your health first. I'm just more vocal about health now. That whole year that I had it and had multiple surgeries, I didn't tell anyone. I mean, my core group of people knew, but my co workers didn't know. My co host on Dancing with the Stars didn't know. In fact, I found out I was cancer free. As I was getting ready for dress rehearsal for Dancing with the Stars. I remember one of the women that helped with wardrobe was actually writing down what the doctor was saying. And I looked over at Tom Bergeron in dress rehearsal and I said, do you want to get some drinks tonight after the show? And he's like, I guess.

[Narrator/Host]

I go, what?

[Erin Andrews]

He goes, what are we celebrating? I was like, I'm cancer free. He said, what? To hear more of how we opened up during our live episode from San Fran, check out the full episode now. Wherever you get your podcasts,

[Tenderfoot TV Announcer]

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[Narrator/Host]

The bottom line is some things add up, some things do not, and there's no one explanation that covers all of it, at least in a clean way. So instead of arguing about Bob Lazar as a person, let's widen the frame. The Deeper question is about how we decide what counts as knowledge, what do we accept as evidence? And how much uncertainty are we willing to take before we stop looking? To help do that, I wanted to bring in two minds who approach this problem from a very different angle. Not as whistleblowers or journalists, but as thinkers, scientists who are less interested in answers than in frameworks. That brings us to Gary Nolan, who you heard briefly in episode one, and the legendary Jacques Vallee.

[Gary Nolan]

It's like the end of adolescence, and now you need to get a job, okay? Then you need to get money and you get to invest in structures, which is what Dr. Nolan is leading. And that's possible now because in part because of people like me writing those books and those books getting attention through the Web and so on. A number of people know the basic facts, you know, the basic data, and a number of people have started to do their own investigations. If you have a computer today, you can build a professional level catalog and you can do your own statistics. If you know statistics, you know, you don't need to wait for somebody to give you authorization to do that. That has changed the audience. It's made it a lot larger, and it has changed the level of professionalism that you can apply to that. The mystery goes through phases, and every phase is taken up by the media and then forgotten and then reborn in some other way. So I've seen all these different waves of interest along the way. Then it became international. Today, most of the information, certainly that I get or that people here get is through the Web. Now everybody can be in contact, know what's going on in other countries. I think we're at a point of major transition. You know, the media has driven that. You know, once you have television, then people have access to a larger audience and so on. Before, it was just radio interviews, you know, once in a while, and they would only happen when there was some event. Journalists are not going to be interested in a subject where there is no breakthrough when we're still standing here with no real answer to the mystery. I'm taking the time to answer your question because I think that's the profound question. There isn't one truth. I'm an information scientist, so what I'm going to do is ask how many cases like that are there? And I'm going to build a little catalog of those cases. If I can. I'm going to go talk to the witnesses in the other cases. They're all like it. Okay. Then I'll try to build a pattern or a model of what the operation or what the situation was and where that person was with respect to that situation. And I think that's all I can do. That's the best I can do.

[Jacques Vallee]

Data is different than evidence. The same data. I can have a list of numbers. It could be, you know, what last year's wine harvest is, or what the output of the sewage plant was across the United States. Numbers, that's just data, right? But contextualized data, at least in science, in the context of a hypothesis, saying, okay, here's data that I've collected around biology. Does the data support, in the context of the question, whether or not the hypothesis is correct? At that level, it starts to become evidence. And we call it evidence, but it's not. Evidence is not proof. Evidence is no more proof in biology or UAP UFOs than it is in a courtroom. Evidence is evidence. And you have a jury of your peers who you are looking at the evidence and how you, the prosecutor or the defense pitch it, different ways of interpreting what the evidence means, but the evidence truly is just data.

[Gary Nolan]

The question is, what is the nature of evidence? I mean, there has to be a framework. It's like in court, you can have a witness who is telling the truth about what he saw. And he saw a blue car. Now, I'm going to get other witnesses to come forward, and some of them will be truthful and they will have seen a red car, okay? And they are both telling the truth as they experienced it at the time. But at the time, the event, it was confusing. There were many people. There was blood on the floor. There was an accident. There was something happening. The police arrived with sirens and lights and everything else. Ambulances arrived, and everybody got very confused.

[Jacques Vallee]

If you look in the papers and you read the actual science of the papers, biologists and even often physicists will leave themselves so much diplomatic room to be wrong. They'll always say it is supportive of the hypothesis. You leave yourself room to be wrong. Scientists are right today, wrong tomorrow, but righter the next day. You know, so what it is, it's an incremental reinterpretation of reality.

[Gary Nolan]

Reality is a construct of my brain based on my perceptions. And my perceptions are limited, and they are limited by my culture. They are biased by, you know, my beliefs. Some people might see the Virgin Mary and I will just see a light. If you want to go back to was it real or not, you have to ask that question. What do you mean by real? I mean, was there a physical Virgin Mary there? And if so, how come only one person saw her.

[Jacques Vallee]

There's only really one place where proof exists, and that's in math. Because you have set the parameters so tightly, usually in a mathematical regiment, you've created a sandbox within which it's either right or wrong. One plus one equals two, always. But we do come eventually to conclusions. Certain things get accepted as fact because so many people have looked at it over time that it's like, okay, well, I don't need to check it again. Every time I've checked it, and all the things that I do based on it continue to be true. So therefore, I can proceed as if it was a formal conclusion.

[Gary Nolan]

And if you decode it the way I try to decode those, it says, your idea of time is wrong and your idea of space is wrong. Now I can introduce you to some of my friends in physics and in theoretical physics who are telling me the same thing. There is no such thing as time. There is no such thing as space. Those are things that our brains and eyes are constructing to account for things around us well enough that we can survive in this environment for a while. That's all there is. But that's not true in terms of the way the universe is constructed. All those messages, whether they are overt or, you know, more subtle, implanted in the brain or whatever, they are at another level that needs to be decoded. But you find the same message being told in many different cultures, many different ways, independently. You know, the physicists today are starting to teach that time and space are convenient variables to do math about this world so we can build the Eiffel Tower. But that's really not the basic physics is a form of uncertainty, you know, form of quanta or something like that. So physics is in a crisis because of that. They need to reconcile with reality the way it is, the way we manipulate it. We're facing something that's way ahead of us with control of physics that we don't understand and control of life at a level that we haven't considered yet. To me, the driver is that this should be an inspiration for us. This is not a threat, which is why the Air Force wanted to get out of it, because everything they do is designed for war. This is not a war. We don't know what it is. The science is based on observing nature and being seduced by nature or threatened by nature and adapting. So this is part of our learning, you know, about the universe generally. We think we understand the Earth, and that's not true when you talk to the Navy people who are here. So I think we're getting humble as part of this, and it's good for us to be a little bit humble. For example, there are three universities in the United States that are now engaged with projects that are funded. There is, you know, Stanford, Columbia, and Harvard. Excuse me, but those are not depending on money from the government. They do whatever they want. And a professor with tenure in one of Those universities, like Dr. Nolan or Dr. Avi Loeb at Harvard, can pretty much raise money from companies or from interested people and design the project he wants and get his students involved. At the very beginning, when I spoke to Dr. Hynek, there were a number of secret projects, if you remember, on the Air Force in the US and so on. The hypothesis was that this was. This could come from an adversary, you know, as part of the Cold War, that this was part of spying, this was part the of. And that hypothesis didn't work. I mean, what they were observing was beyond the capabilities of even the Soviet Union. The thing that I saw as a kid, I had no idea I would compare it to, you know, I could give you hundreds of observations just like it, between 10 and 15 meters in diameter, a disc that flies without noise or trail and has some sort of a dome on top. Flying saucer.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's stock up savings time now through March 31st. Bring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Oreo, Haagen, Dazs, Charmin, Tide, Sparkling Ice, Reese's and Special K. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings. When you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go, pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for terms and conditions.

[Erin Andrews]

Hey, it's Erin Andrews and Karissa Thompson. And we did a live episode from San Francisco where we broke down one of the most surprising matchups in years. Shared a perfectly awesome awkward moment by me, of course, and talk about the importance of putting yourself and your health first. I'm just more vocal about health now. That whole year that I had it and had multiple surgeries, I didn't tell anyone. I mean, my core group of people knew, but my co workers didn't know. My co host on Dancing with the Stars didn't know. In fact, I found out I was cancer free as I was getting ready for dress rehearsal for Dancing with the Stars. I remember one of the women that helped with wardrobe was actually writing down what the doctor was saying. And I looked over at Tom Bergeron in dress rehearsal and I said, do you want to get some drinks tonight after the show? And he's like, I guess. I go, what? He goes, what are we celebrating? I was like, I'm cancer free. He said, what? To hear more of how we opened up during our live episode from San Fran, check out the full episode now. Wherever you get your podcast,

[Tenderfoot TV Announcer]

Picture this. A curve in the road, A change in plans. Well, what do you say? With the all new Audi Q3? The answer is always yes. Yes to adventure, yes to escape. Yes to performance. Yes to comfort. Yes to right now. Because saying yes without hesitation, that's real luxury. The all new Audi Q3 made for the yes Life Amazon presents Laura versus fruit flies swarming your fruit and terrorizing your kitchen, these little freaks multiply at a rate that would make a rabbit say, yo, chill. But Laura shopped on Amazon and saved on cleaning spray, countertop wipes, and fly traps. Hey, fruit flies. Your baby boom ends here. Save the everyday with Amazon.

[Narrator/Host]

When you listen to people like Jacques Fillet and Gary Nolan, it forces you to slow down. Not because they're giving you answers, but they remind you how limited our frameworks still are, how much of reality we explain through habit and comfort instead of actual understanding. Science likes clean categories, clear definitions, results that are repeatable. But the human experience is never that tidy, making this season of High strange. There's so many nuanced details that stand out to me. People's tone, their timing, body language, what somebody hesitates on, what they tend to rush through and what feels heavy. Not just the stories themselves, but the real life moments around them. Sitting across from someone and feeling the room change when a certain detail comes up. Watching people light up or shut down, realizing how much information lives in these pauses. They don't show up in transcripts. They don't fit neatly into an evidence folder. But they matter. This show is not just about what people say happened. It's about how they carry it. How it sits with them, how it shaped the way they move through the world. And the same goes for us. Every interview, every drive, every late night conversation, all that becomes part of the story, too. So in the next episode, I sit down with my team and we pull the camera back even further. We talk openly about the people we've met, the places we went, the moments that stuck with us, and the stories that never quite fit into a single episode. But I just have to tell you, since 2023, we've been researching this topic at length. We have dozens of more stories to share with you. That's why we're coming back again. Season three of High Strange will be even longer and begins on June 6th. And before we get there lets take the gloves off and talk about some aliens. High Strange is a Production by Tenderfoot TV in association with iHeart Podcasts, created, hosted and edited by myself, Payne Lindsey. Executive producers are myself and Donald Albright. Editing by Mike Rooney, Cooper Skinner and myself. Original score by Makeup and Vanity set Sound design, mixing and mastering by Cooper Skinner. Additional production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington, Eric Quintana, Sean Nurney and Meredith Stedman. Our cover art is by Polygon. Special thanks to Oren Rosenbaum and the whole team at UTA, the Nord Group, Station 16 and Beck Media and Marketing. Check out the show's [e-mail] and if you're enjoying the show, please help us out by rating and reviewing the podcast and share it with your friends. Thanks for listening.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's Stock up Savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for store wide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn uneligible items from Lays, Jack Links, Cheez It Classico, Hidden Valley and Best Foods. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pick up or delivery restrictions apply. See website for terms and conditions.

[Tenderfoot TV Announcer]

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[Narrator/Host]

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[Payne Lindsey]

hair, skin, nails, bones and joints.

[Narrator/Host]

With 0 grams of added sugar, no

[Tenderfoot TV Announcer]

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[Narrator/Host]

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[Erin Andrews]

If you recorded songs off the radio for a mixtape, it might be time to screen for colon cancer. The Cologuard test is non invasive, requires no special prep or time off, and you start screening right from your home. It's just three simple setup, sample and ship. If you're 45 or older and at average risk, ask your doctor about the Cologuard test, available by prescription only. Learn more or request a [e-mail] podcast.

[Tenderfoot TV Announcer]

Hey, Jennifer. Listeners, we want to hear from you. We just launched a survey and want to know about your favorite shows, your merch requests, and what you'd like to Listen to in 2026. Give us the gift of your feedback and you might be one of our winners. To get free merch and a $100Amazon gift card, head over to Tenderfoot TV Survey for more. Thanks again. Now, here's the show.

[Payne Lindsey]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Erin Andrews]

Guaranteed Human.