A Broken White House, With Karine Jean-Pierre. Plus, the End of SNAP?

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Podcast Summary: "A Broken White House, With Karine Jean-Pierre. Plus, the End of SNAP?"
Date: November 4, 2025
Duration: ~2 hr 15 min
Hosts: Van Lathan Jr., Rachel Lindsay
Guest: Karine Jean-Pierre (former Biden White House Press Secretary)

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Episode Overview

This episode is a deep dive into the current state of American politics and society. Van and Rachel explore themes of political dysfunction, economic hardship, and cultural divides, culminating in a candid, nuanced interview with Karine Jean-Pierre about her new book Independent: A Look Inside a Broken White House, Outside Party Lines. The show balances serious conversations about food insecurity and political betrayal with moments of levity, sports fandom, and a powerful closing story about resilience and empathy.

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Key Segments & Timestamps

1. Dodgers’ World Series Recap (00:02–18:21)
2. The End of SNAP?—Food Insecurity and Policy Failure (19:21–39:10)
3. Culture Wars & Class Warfare in Politics (39:10–63:06)
4. Halloween, Blackface, and Digital Outrage (63:08–70:32)
5. Interview: Karine Jean-Pierre on a Broken White House (70:35–133:26)
6. Reflections & Takeaways (134:34–145:46)
7. The Power of Human Stories—Anthony Griffith’s “Tale of Two Cities” (145:47–157:29)

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Segment Summaries

1. Dodgers’ World Series Recap

(00:02–18:21)

• The episode cold-opens with celebration: the Dodgers have just won the World Series.
• Van, Rachel, and guest Jomi Adeneron break down the roller-coaster series, including heartbreaks, comebacks, and wild-game moments.
• Notable Quote:
  “It's amazing, by the way… I had the same exact reaction.” – Jomi Adeneron [05:12]
• Jomi highlights the emotional stress of being a true sports fan and the “game of inches” that defines post-season baseball.
• Transition from sports euphoria into the “depressing” reality of political turmoil: “Now that the joy is done, let’s get back to the real world.” – Van Lathan Jr. [19:21]

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2. The End of SNAP?—Food Insecurity and Policy Failure

(19:21–39:10)

• Donnie gives breaking news: SNAP (food stamp) benefits face partial funding and significant new delays, leaving over 40 million Americans in precarious positions.
• Clarification: The Trump administration is only partially complying with a court ruling to disburse benefits; actual restoration could take weeks or months.
• The hosts launch into a civics lesson about SNAP:
  • SNAP is the second-largest anti-poverty program for non-elderly Americans.
  • 1 in 10 Americans rely on it.
  • Average benefit: ~$157/month, only $1.74 per meal.
  • Massive misinformation: SNAP can’t be used for alcohol, nails, “weave,” etc.—it’s just food.
• Rachel and Van attack political narratives that vilify SNAP recipients and debunk myths about widespread fraud.
• Notable Quotes:
  • “There's a huge percentage of people in the country that at some point are going to be on SNAP.” – Van Lathan Jr. [21:16]
  • “People are having to choose whether or not they feed their families or they pay a certain bill. Those are the choices that people are being faced with.” – Rachel Lindsay [27:42]
• Food banks, the hosts stress, are not a realistic replacement for SNAP: transportation, time, and dignity all become additional burdens on the working poor.
• The conversation connects food insecurity to deeper systemic inequities—taxation, wage stagnation, housing costs, and the loss of the American Dream.

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3. Culture Wars & Class Warfare in Politics

(39:10–63:06)

• Van and Rachel explore how culture wars—amplified by media and politicians—are used to distract from economic deprivations and policy failures.
• They analyze the strategic shifting of political focus:
  • “In any functional democracy, that would be a let them eat cake moment.” – Van Lathan Jr. [57:57], referencing Trump dodging questions about the economy to attack Democrats on transgender rights.
  • The conservative playbook vilifies “others” (trans, Black, immigrant) while ignoring structural issues affecting all working people.
• Discussion of political misdirection: How politicians (regardless of party) are incentivized to keep the electorate misinformed or “low-information.”
• Van points out the failings of both parties to champion the interests of working people and the ways race and class are used to divide potential coalitions.
• Notable Exchange:
  • “It’s party over people, it's policy over people, it's politics over people, it's privilege over people. That's really their new thing.” – Rachel Lindsay [37:28]
  • “There's no one that really speaks to them or for them.” – Van Lathan Jr. [40:44]
• Dissecting the social psychology of “hierarchy” and how it’s reinforced by systems like American capitalism and the country's racial caste legacy.

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4. Halloween, Blackface, and Digital Outrage

(63:08–70:32)

• Annual Halloween blackface controversy becomes a lens for confronting online outrage culture.
• Van urges refusing to “enrich” media agitators by getting sucked into cycles of performative rage:
  • “Black outrage has always been an industry for racists… The X payment system essentially makes everybody on X into a digital pimp.” – Van Lathan Jr. [64:59]
• Rachel shares her evolving personal response—moving toward disengagement and reporting rather than reacting.
• Both agree: Ignore attention-seekers with no real power or platform, focus protest on corporations or individuals with systemic influence.

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5. Interview: Karine Jean-Pierre on a Broken White House

(70:35–133:26)

Life as Press Secretary

• Karine recounts the intensity, honor, and stress of being the first Black, first openly queer, first immigrant woman to serve as White House Press Secretary [71:51].
• Her daily survival tools: prayer, meditation, exercise, and carving out “protected” time amid a 24/7 role.

The Book: Independent and Party Disillusionment

• Karine’s book is not a tell-all; it’s born of frustration with America’s “broken” two-party system and her break with the Democratic Party.
  • “One party is completely lost and the other party, I feel, is not fighting enough.” – Karine Jean-Pierre [75:11]
  • Frustration with Democratic inaction, lack of support for Kamala Harris (“the party forgets us”), and exclusion of independents from primary participation.

Democratic Party Betrayal & Leadership Crisis

• She describes dismay at Democrats “eating their own” amidst Joe Biden’s reelection struggles, lack of unity, and failure to stand by Kamala Harris [86:48].
• The fallout after Biden’s debate: leadership’s mixed messaging, betrayal, and missed opportunities for transparency with voters.
• Karine admits the Biden White House, while historically effective on many domestic fronts, missed the mark on major issues (e.g., climate, Gaza) and lost touch with Americans’ economic realities.

Gaza and Policy Responsibility

• On Gaza: Karine is candid about moral horror and the administration’s failings—“It was awful… more could have been done.” [82:36] But she emphasizes her role was never about her own views, but about speaking for the administration.

Media and Misinformation

• The interview covers the erosion of public trust, the toxic impact of misinformation, and the challenge of reaching and informing voters in the social media era.
• Karine calls for more independent, critical thinking—even as she worries about disengagement and generational disillusionment.

Identity, DEI, and Criticism

• She pushes back hard on “identity politics” critiques:
  • “If anything, I get criticized for saying I'm a black queer woman… It actually puts a target… on me when I say it… Again, I actually get criticized for being a black queer woman.” [110:57]
  • She’s adamant: representation matters not as a shield, but as a torch for unseen communities.

Internal Party Politics

• Karine expresses disappointment at Democratic resistance to progressive candidates and “establishment” sabotage, using a New York mayoral race as example.
• She discusses party gatekeeping, coalition-building, and the performative nature of politics (“What percent of politics is just straight up lying?” Van asks. Karine deflects, but admits the prevalence of performance).

Book Tour Reactions

• Karine addresses the negative press about her book tour, combative media interviews, and the tough expectations for former press secretaries to always “win the room.”

Wisdom and Forward Look

• On public speaking: “Practice, practice, practice. Get people to ask you questions... But nobody goes to the podium without being prepared.” – Karine Jean-Pierre [131:33]

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6. Reflections & Takeaways

(134:34–145:46)

• Van and Rachel reflect on the interview, expressing new understanding for Karine’s experience but also skepticism about establishment narratives and the “closeness” of officials to power.
• The duo engages briefly on the complex dance between progressive politics and identity (the Graham Platner convo), and why it matters for political aspirants to face hard questions from diverse communities.

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7. The Power of Human Stories—Anthony Griffith’s “Tale of Two Cities”

(145:47–157:29)

• Van plays a moving story from comedian Anthony Griffith about balancing his big break on The Tonight Show with the heartbreak of losing his two-year-old daughter to cancer.
• The story becomes a universal meditation on grief, masculinity, financial hardship, and the silent suffering behind public success.
• Notable Quote:
  “In 1990, I had three appearances with the legendary Johnny Carson and a total of 14 applause breaks. And I would have given it all if I could just have one more day sharing a bag of French fries with my daughter.” – Anthony Griffith [156:04]
• Van’s closing message: “When we are trying to ask each other to just consider what people are going through, that is what we’re asking for. If you are cast as a bleeding heart… that’s humanity. And just try if you can, to consider the other person.” [157:23]

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Overall Tone & Style

• Candid and unfiltered: Hosts and guest don’t shy away from strong opinions, vulnerability, or humor.
• Punchy, passionate, and occasionally irreverent: Sports and politics treated with equal intensity.
• Community-minded: The through-line is empathy—for fellow citizens struggling with food insecurity, with politics, or in private anguish.

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Notable Quotes With Timestamps

• Jomi Adeneron on sports heartbreak:
  “I'm locked in. ...It just. Nigga was kind of scaring the hoes a little bit. ...I have to spare myself at points I can't watch.” [11:37–12:47]

• Van Lathan Jr. on SNAP misinformation:
  “There's a huge percentage of people in the country that at some point are going to be on SNAP.” [21:16]

• Rachel Lindsay on economic choices:
  “People are having to choose whether or not they feed their families or they pay a certain bill.” [27:42]

• Rachel Lindsay on party politics:
  "It’s party over people, it's policy over people, it's politics over people, it's privilege over people." [37:28]

• Karine Jean-Pierre on the Democratic Party:
  "One party is completely lost and the other party, I feel, is not fighting enough." [75:11]

• Van Lathan Jr. on culture war distraction:
  "In any functional democracy, that would be a let them eat cake moment." [57:57]

• Karine Jean-Pierre on DEI criticism:
  “If anything, I get criticized for saying I’m a black queer woman. ... You have no right. To tell anybody how they should identify themselves...” [113:04]

• Anthony Griffith on loss:
  “I would have given it all if I could just have one more day sharing a bag of French fries with my daughter.” [156:04]

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Conclusion

This episode of Higher Learning masterfully weaves together conversations about sports, politics, policy, social outrage, and personal resilience. The central message, amplified through conversations with Karine Jean-Pierre and the story of Anthony Griffith, is empathy—for the disenfranchised, for those struggling with loss, for anyone longing to be heard and to matter. The tone is frank and critical but ultimately hopeful, holding power to account and urging listeners to stay informed, engaged, and compassionate.

Transcript

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on. It is Ivan Lathan Jr.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

It's me, Rachel and Lindsey.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We got Jomi Adeneron here with us, one of the number one Dodger fans in the world because we are the champions. The Dodgers won the World Series. Jomi feel left out?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

You guys are dexing your Dodgers stuff?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, we. We wanted to bring on a real Dodgers fan to have the conversation at the top of the show. The rest of the show will probably be depressing, but we start. Enjoy. Jamie, The Dodgers have won the World Series. A quick sports check. Tell people about the Dodgers road to the World Series and what the whole series was like for you.

[Jomi Adeneron]

I mean, we can just honestly don't have any words. Like when the final out was. Was. Was happened. I fell to my knees. Like I really still can't even get the words out. From the beginning of the year. I fell to my knees in my house.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I love this for you.

[Jomi Adeneron]

Nah, how could you not Magic about baseball. You really got to think at the beginning of the year, everybody's talking about how the Dodgers, they're for sure going to repeat. It's a lock. Look at these guys. Look who they signed in the off season. And those guys didn't even play for a. Tanner Scott. Terrible. Kirby Yates was not good. Michael Fordo was the worst player in baseball by far. Right? And they were legitimately had stretches of terrible baseball. They lost nine of 11 a couple times. Lost six in a row. Fiker Cockbucky went 06 against the brewers in the regular season.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Tough.

[Jomi Adeneron]

I was at a USC game when Yoshi Nobu Yamamoto, who we will talk about later, had a. Had a. What's it called?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

A complete game.

[Jomi Adeneron]

No, no, no.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

A.

[Jomi Adeneron]

A no hitter. No hitter through eight and two thirds. And the Dodgers lost because the bullpen gave it up. Let me repeat that. He had a no hitter, threw eight and two thirds and the Dodgers lost. And I'm looking at my brother, I'm like, listen, it was a great run. You know, we'll go outside in the NLDS, but hey, man, we still. We'll always have 20, 24, right? They enter the postseason as a three seed, which means they got to play the wild card, right? Sweep the Reds. But it's the Reds. You're not really for real. Then they gotta go on. Take on big bad Philly on the road in Philadelphia. The two seed, go get two on the road, get blown out in game three and then win a miraculous game in game four where the pitcher throws the ball to the backstop where you're not supposed to go, hey, Song Kim scores. We're going to play the brewers, which, again, they did not beat all the road.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Every series, every playing the.

[Jomi Adeneron]

They go to the LCS to play the number one seed in all of baseball. All of baseball. And they sweep em.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, that's what I thought was gonna be their best. That's when I tapped in. I thought that was gonna be the matchup.

[Jomi Adeneron]

But, Rachel, I'm sitting in my crib. We beat the Phillies, who were. I always thought was gonna be our toughest matchup.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Okay?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Not the Brewers.

[Jomi Adeneron]

Not the Brewers. I was not worried about them dudes. And look, I was vindicated. So I go into the World Series speaking. We were talking about Korg earlier. I was talking cash.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, you were.

[Jomi Adeneron]

I was talking insane.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You feel like they were unbeatable at this point.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

A lot of people were. You were not alone.

[Jomi Adeneron]

I was saying, dodging five, man. Y' all don't want to see us, bruh. I was on cloud nine. Only for me.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What?

[Jomi Adeneron]

Not even a week later, we had the crib down, three, two, going. It's over.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's over.

[Jomi Adeneron]

It's over.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Just to let you guys know. Okay, so if you guys didn't watch the game, we did an interview here with Roy Wood Jr. We sent Luis to the World Series. Higher learning sent Luis to the World Series.

[Jomi Adeneron]

It's amazing, by the way.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We sent Luis to the World Series. When Roy Wood Jr. Was here, he said, I actually bought tickets for the wrong game. I meant to buy tickets for game five. I bought tickets from game four. The reason why we were gonna buy tickets for game five is because we thought that that was going to be the game that the goddess clinched, the World Series. Where was it? You should buy tickets for Game 5 because the Dodgers win all of the games, right? Cause the Dodgers had already won game three. It was going to be over. And it was not over.

[Jomi Adeneron]

No.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The Blue Jays played. They won game five. They won game four. They are up three, two, prime. Going home two to win one. Two to win one. And the cooking began. And I'm sorry to the Blue Jays fans that are listening to this. It is your team cucked out. And that's just a.

[Jomi Adeneron]

That's the.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's the truth. Guess what?

[Jomi Adeneron]

That's the truth.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I want to play something for you guys real quick. Donnie, do you have that video? I'll put in the chat. Biggest moment of my life as a Blue Jays fan. This is in the top of the ninth. That ball is Hit out to. Oh, my God. Oh, no. That's a home run by Miguel Rojas. That's a home run by Miguel Rojas. That is a home run by the number nine hitter, Miguel.

[Jomi Adeneron]

You know what's crazy?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's crony. That's.

[Jomi Adeneron]

That's. That's a drawing of Blue Jays fan. Yeah, I'm a Dodgers fan. I had the same exact reaction.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Donnie, keep playing it. No, no, no, no. But here comes the rage. Let's do the rage. The rage is coming. Oh, did I cut it off? Jeff Hoffman hangs a slider to the number nine hitter, Miguel Ros. And we have a tie ball game. This was our first fear with Jeff often. They could not be trusted. Yo, I gotta say this, man. This was really just so many things that happened in the game.

[Jomi Adeneron]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So many times that you thought the Dodgers were out of the game. Right.

[Jomi Adeneron]

Just incredible. They had. I mean, they go down 4 2. Max Muncie hits a solo, obviously Miguel Rojas. And then bottom nine, bases loaded, tie game. It's two, one out, guys. It's over. The Dodgers supposed to lose that game. You get the four side of home, which, by the way, Will Smith is like barely on the bag.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Game of inches.

[Jomi Adeneron]

He's got a pinky toe. Gets back on the bag just in time. Right. Then the catch is center.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

For.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

First of all, I want tears.

[Jomi Adeneron]

I might cry.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Don't play with me, Rachel.

[Jomi Adeneron]

I'm looking at KK. I'm like, KK's not getting that ball. Cause there's no way.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Just like a basket catch the outfield was in. Because in that situation, if the runner tags at third and the runner scores, the game is over.

[Jomi Adeneron]

No, there was two outs.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, no, I mean, but. But they were still.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

But the bas. How many people were on the bases.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It was still bases loaded because Hernandez was still playing. He was playing. He was playing in which.

[Jomi Adeneron]

So he.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

To be honest. Which, to be honest with you, I don't know why. To be honest with you, why was he playing in at that point? There were two outs. He should have just been playing.

[Jomi Adeneron]

He should have been playing deep.

[Donnie]

Right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

At a normal dep.

[Jomi Adeneron]

I think it's like. It was also like in the gap. Because that's why. Pause. Which, by the way, and we'll talk about this.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

In the gap. Doesn't fucking matter if the guy's. This guy on third. If. If the ball gets down, it's. It's.

[Jomi Adeneron]

It's over.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right? That's the point. He should be running on any. It's two Outs, he should be running on contact.

[Jomi Adeneron]

Yeah, don't disagree. K's like he's gonna. If he's gonna make us a back shter catch, which if he makes it, is great. But likelihood of doing that is impossible. Paas has to come. Who, by the way, got subbed in, I think maybe like a couple plays earlier by. By Dave Roberts, who we will talk about glowingly, I'm sure, later. Pahes has to come farther than Kike and then has to moss him to make the catch. And you're sitting there like, there's no way we're going to extras right now. TK is on the floor because he thinks, oh, we lost. Like, the season's over. Turns out he's like, yo. Pa's like, yo, I got it. Let's go. He gets up, we're all happy and. And we're going to extras unbelievably.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And so when I watched, when I finally looked at it, I thought he was hurt. But no, he was down because he thought they had given up the World Series. Pajes catches the ball and then you get also for that same fee, we're not gonna play it again. Cause we gonna leave the Toronto fans alone. But I'll tell the Toronto fans something real quick. Y' all talking cash money shit. All right? And y' all were making it about stuff. And y' all were talking cash money shit. Go ahead and get some of that. Now. I feel really bad for the Blue Jays fans. I have to be honest with you. I feel really bad.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Why do you feel bad, though?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Because as a sports fan, As a sports fan, it's a little bit of empathy.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

It's a tough loss.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But this is how I know you don't really be on your shit like that for baseball.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Oh, for sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

As a sports fan, just having been here before. Having been here before in a game where you really feel like you have everything in front of you to win, maybe you even feel like you have the better team. And this type of gut wrenching loss. I do feel for them.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

No, it's not me not being on my shit. I'm just a competitor. I actually don't feel anything for them. And I don't even watch the game. I don't even. I mean, I watch.

[Jomi Adeneron]

I watch competitor Rachel competes.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I'm a competitor. I'm part of the game.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But you've never felt bad as a competitor. You've never felt bad for the team. If you see them crying, they fucking mama crying and all this shit.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Not once that I can Remember that? I feel bad for the team that lost. As an outsider. Right. Who doesn't have an allegiance to any team. I thought it was so fun. I know it was for you. It's like, are we gonna get it? Are we not? But seven games, extra innings, in retrospect, for you to win, yes. For you to win on that, yes. In retrospect. But to watch. Just to watch it, Rachel, that's the kind of world I'm not into baseball. That is the kind of World Series that I want to see.

[Jomi Adeneron]

Van knows this, but I'm not fun person to watch. High leverage with the worst.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Jomi Adeneron]

I am not a fun person.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He. I'm. I'm definitely not.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

At least you know that about you.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I won't even watch. Like, if it gets too much anxiety, I'll change the station. Jomi. Yeah.

[Anthony Griffith]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I watched the whole lsu, Clemson game. Turned away from it. Just couldn't watch it. And Jamie's like, je is different. Jamie will watch and be the most nervous, annoying, like, Jomi. Sit the fuck down.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I'm more like that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Like, Jomi. If it's lsu, I almost have to spare myself at points I can't watch. Remember the Laker game?

[Jomi Adeneron]

Game six against the Warriors?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, this is bad. We went to the game.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Oh, you went to the game.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We were. We were at the game. We went to the game. We went to the game. We're in the suite. Everybody is chilling. We having fun. It's a different situation ever. When you in the suite, there's a lot. Y' all know when you're in the suite and you're watching the game, you are watching the game, but there's also a lot of socializing.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

No. Yeah. You're not. Most people are not watching the game.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

In the suite, Right? You're watching. The game is on. And there's a lot of socializing. You talking. It's food. There's a lot of stuff. Everybody is having a fun time. Jomi is in the first row of the suite, locked in the entire time. Everybody else is having fun. Like, Jomi. You want to meet people. None of this stuff.

[Jomi Adeneron]

Important context. This is game 6, 20, 23, Lakers, warriors, the Lake. You told me this in, like, the first quarter. The warriors don't have it. It's all Lakers. And the Lakers were up, like, what, 10 for, like, the entirety of the second half? And I'm sitting in the chair. I'm not smiling. I'm not laughing. I'm locked in.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He had no fun. It was almost To a point to where he was like, hey, man, I don't know if Jomi's the right nigga to bring to the game. Cause it's like he had no. He had zero fun. And I get it, but he had zero fun. I'm like, it's like, they up. I'm like, jomi, you were embarrassed. It's like, no, no, no, no. Not embarrassed. But it was like. It just. Nigga was kind of scaring the hoes a little bit. And by the way, we weren't on that. Kaliqa's there. So, like, we not. We're not on. It's not that type of situation. I mean, scaring the hoes in the hoes being a fun time in the crypto. We they up some points and it's like they're not like two or three minutes.

[Jomi Adeneron]

The Lakers are going to win this game.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm like, this fucking basketball game is over, ok? The game is over. He's like, it's not over.

[Jomi Adeneron]

It's a lot of game left.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

There's a lot of game left. I'm like, jomi, have a hamburger. The game is over. To bring it. The dessert card is here. I don't want any dessert.

[Jomi Adeneron]

Bring it back to the Dodgers. My homie called me on Saturday. He texted. I didn't respond to text. I was locked in. It's locked in on Saturday. I went to the gym, got a great workout in, right? Got some Japanese food. Because I was like, shout out, my homies. We gonna support. Let's get this dub today. You know what I mean? My homie calls me. He's like, yo, I texted you, man. I wanna come over, watch the game. Where you gonna be at? I was like, I'm at the crib. So, like, let me come through. And I said, yo, Shaytan, man, this is my boy, Shayton. Shout out. Last time you came over was last year, the World Series, Game 4, Dodgers went to clinch. They lost. Stay home. Stay home, man. I'm gonna watch it at my crib. You watch it in your crib?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Did you know that?

[Jomi Adeneron]

And we gonna see. We gonna see what happens. But last time we came over to los. We not really gonna tempt fate like that.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Have you been to the World Series?

[Jomi Adeneron]

No, no, I can't. Again, I. I can't. That's not really my. My speed. I like to be at the crib. Cause again, sometimes they be stinking it. I remember in 2010 when the Lakers played the Celtics, that game seven, they were down like 13 in the. In the Third quarter, and I was like, cool. I'm gonna watch man versus Food. That's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna put that On Travel Channel 242, if I recall correctly. I got it. That's for y'.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

All.

[Jomi Adeneron]

I will not be there. I just. I just don't have it in me.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And then they. That was in the third quarter.

[Jomi Adeneron]

That was in the third quarter. The Lakers came back, and then you put the game back on, and you.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Would hate me being there. I'm an experienced person. I love the experience. Did I tell you I was at game one of the World Series last year and I left.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I hate.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

This is the first time I'm gonna say this publicly. I left because I was trying to beat the traffic when Freddie Freeman hit the home run. So I heard it in the. In the line.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Why do you say things.

[Jomi Adeneron]

Why would you. Why would you say that?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Why would you heard it in the.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Because we had this conversation about it.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I would have not. How was I supposed to know, Rachel, that that was gonna happen?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Rachel, why do you know, Rachel, Why do you say stuff like that? Why do you do stuff like that?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Because it's what happened.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

It's the truth.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Rachel. No, you just keep telling yourself over and over and over again, I am.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Not a baseball fan. I'm never gonna pretend like I am. The game is too long for me.

[Jomi Adeneron]

They got the pitch clock.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Cutting the pitch clock for you now. The game is too long for me. It's just not my thing. I like going to games. I love a baseball experience.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You like vibe?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I think it's so. I love the vibe.

[Jomi Adeneron]

You like a beer so much.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I love a beer. I love a hot dog. I love the seventh inning stretch. Sing, Take Me out to the Ball. I love the whole baseball experience.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You like it.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

You like it, but I'm just. I'm never going to be at home watching it a game.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You left the World Series early. You don't leave the World Series. One Mr. Bill Simmons stayed at a game that was 18 innings long.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I saw him.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Bill was almost on the field. Bill could have. Bill could have fielded the ball. See, that's the type of shit. See, Bill is always doing that, by the way. Bill, like, Bill goes to a game and he knows what people. And then it's like. When I saw them pictures of him basically being shown in.

[Jomi Adeneron]

Philadel was right there.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I was about to be like, they about to get on Bill.

[Jomi Adeneron]

That's different.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

They about to get on Bill as man. That's the you know, as we just talked about, going to a suite to see the game.

[Jomi Adeneron]

Ah, yeah. But here's the thing, and I want to address this. I want to make sure that, like, we are all here together.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Give him a final. Give me something in final. Give them a parting shot, J.

[Jomi Adeneron]

People are going to sit here and tell you that the Dodgers ruin baseball.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Wow.

[Jomi Adeneron]

That's not true.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Why would they say that?

[Jomi Adeneron]

It's all. Well, because the Dodgers have the highest payroll.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay, gotcha.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

In the whole. Baseball.

[Jomi Adeneron]

In baseball. Nobody wants to talk about that. The Toronto Blue Jays have the fifth highest payroll.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh.

[Jomi Adeneron]

In baseball. The Mets had the second highest pay payroll in baseball. Didn't make the postseason. You know, it's not all about the money. Sometimes we just make the plays. Sometimes we just got the dogs. Last year, it was our bullpen that made all the difference. This year, it was the starting pitching. Right? Now you're going to sit there and say, oh, well, the Dodgers had Shohei go on on Saturday. They had Yosh, the mvp just. And I'll tell you this right now, he was better than Madison Bumgarner in 2014. I'm putting it on my life right now. Right? Tyler Glass now and Blake Snell go all on Saturday. That's like one point something billion dollars in pitching going on the mound on Saturday. I don't care. I don't care. Just because y' all broke. Y' all ain't got no badge. Y' all don't want to spend no.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Money in this economy.

[Jomi Adeneron]

And you want to be mad at me.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Jomi Adeneron]

We're not doing that in this economy, man. We not doing that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Wow.

[Jomi Adeneron]

All these billionaires can't afford to keep their players. And it's my fault that my team wants to win. Y' all made fun of us in 2017 and 2018 for choking. Okay, we got it in 2020. Y' all said it was fake. Now we up.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We heard.

[Jomi Adeneron]

We heard the noise and we said, all right, we coming for y'.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

All.

[Jomi Adeneron]

Now what's the problem that we stacking this bread and getting these chips?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Jomi Adeneron]

It was cash before. Chill out. Let us get ours.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's what I'm talking about, right?

[Jomi Adeneron]

Y' all got fat while we starved in the streets. Oh, now it's our turn.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Jomi, Come on now, you guys, we're gonna take a break. You gonna come back and get into some of the other stuff. Go Dodgers. Parades today in la. Go Dodgers. Go Dodgers.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

This episode is brought to you by Spotify Portal for Backstage. But you're wondering what's Portal? Well, it's an internal developer portal built to improve developer experience and boost productivity. All software components are centralized. Documentation is automated and easy to maintain. New projects and components just a few clicks. With your best practices already built in, think less friction, more innovation. Ready to double your productivity? Try Spotify [e-mail] hi, it's Eva Longoria. And let's be real. After 40, we should ask for more from our skincare. I swear by Revitalift triple powder moisturizer by l' Oreal Paris. With vitamin C pro, retinol and hyaluronic acid. It reduces my wrinkles, firms and brightens. And it's not a procedure, it's just a hard working moisturizer. Revitalift triple power moisturizer by l' Oreal Paris. Grab it today and fragrance free or with SPF 30. Available at your local target.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Now let's jump into politics. Now that the joy is done, let's get back to the real world. Donnie?

[Donnie]

Yeah. The Trump administration today was the deadline that they were facing to update a federal judge who had ruled last week that the Agriculture Department must disperse SNAP benefits. The deadline comes as more than 40 million Americans continue to go without their benefits. And as of an hour ago, the deadline passed. There's been an update. Trump administration says today that they will partially fund SNAP benefits. They said that it will provide details to the states at some point today calculating exactly the per household partial benefit. The process of loading the SNAP cards is going to take steps by state and federal government agencies and vendors. It could take up to two weeks in some states. But the USDA has warned in a court filing that it could take weeks or possibly even months for states to make all the system changes to send out those reduced benefits. So things are in flux.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

So wait, Donnie, just to be clear, because this is, I guess, breaking news for us. They just decided as we're recording this on Monday at 10:45am Pacific Time. They just decided an hour ago that they are going to follow what the courts have said.

[Donnie]

Partially.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay. So they didn't file a response, but it's a partial funding and it might be weeks or months before they even get it. So they're not even going to get their full benefits.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

It'll be partial.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, let's get into a little general education about snap.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Go for it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

All right, first of all, I would like to thank Deray McKelson and all the people over at Campaign Zero for giving us some education on snap. But I don't think sometimes people understand just. What? What do you mean?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

No, yeah, keep going.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, you're right that people understand what a wide ranging program SNAP is and how efficient of a program that it actually is.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Even politicians don't understand it. Don't understand it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And I think sometimes miseducation on SNAP is indicative of a larger sort of blind eye that gets turned on the actual working poor of America and not necessarily the working poor all the time. Are people on snap. There's a huge percentage of people in the country that at some point are going to be on SNAP or use SNAP benefits. It's a large percentage of people.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I mean, the way things are headed, that's absolutely going to be true.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, no, no, no, no, no. That's already true now.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

No, no, I know it's true now. But as we continue, I think people don't realize they are closer to SNAP more than they think.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, yeah, yeah, it's right there. It's like you think you're one of them, but really you're, you're not. Okay. SNAP is the second largest anti poverty program for the non elderly in the US generally. Anyone at or below 130% of the federal poverty level is eligible for SNAP. Approximately 42 million Americans, 1 in 10 people rely on SNAP benefits, an annual cost of around $113 billion. This is another key point that I'm going to read off for you guys at the end here. Before I even get into it, I would, I'm going to ask questions. Donnie, you probably looked at the document. What do you think? Or how much do you think the average SNAP recipient gets per month for food?

[Donnie]

Um, it's, it's under $200.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I know that it's 157 bucks per month. The average SNAP recipient, that's $1.74 per meal. So why is that important? Because there is a group of people and a political thinking out there that paints the picture of large swaths of people who are going to the casino using EBT cards, buying Ferraris. They're going to see the game. They're hanging out, they slaying EBT cards on the side that they're abusing SNAP number one. And then there's another picture that's painted of people who are completely funding their entire lives on SNAP using EBT cards.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

That's something that you really need to specify as well. There's all within that same group of people that you're talking about that are putting out all this misinformation about what you use, how SNAP is used, it's also what it's used for. Newsmax, there was a viral clip going around that, that where the anchor was saying, oh, so you can't get your nails done, you can't get your weave done. That is not what SNAP is for. It is for food. You can't even, you're not even supposed to buy alcohol with snap. Like it's for food. It's for your fruits, your vegetables, your meats, your dairies to supplement, supplement your groceries, supplement your household with necessary food items. People aren't using it for hobbies, which is another thing that is a good distinction to make.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And when you're asking us right now how is there definitive education and information on what people are using SNAP for and how they're using it? The program is very efficient. It's been around for a long time. And we can look into the numbers surrounding SNAP and tell you exactly even the amount of fraud that exists in snap. The vast majority, the vast majority of errors in this program happen because people don't fill out the paperwork right. The fraud rate on this is very low. And one of the reasons why the fraud rate on improper benefit, use of snap, improper recipient, use of snap, improper. There's sometimes stores can be guilty of the fraud. They call it trafficking. One reason why that is less prevalent than people would make you believe that it is is because the states are held responsible for that. The states have to respond to an inspector general who then looks into how they are like administering the benefits. And if there is too much fraud, there's oversight there and the states can be fined for the amount of fraud that goes into their SNAP infrastructure. So there is of course with any program, things that fall through the cracks, but this one is one that is working and it works to feed Americans. Now, food banks. If people think that food banks are an adequate substitution for SNAP and yen reductions in snap, this was from the Big beautiful Bill, could eliminate the equivalent of 6 to 9 billion meals annually. So think about that before we're even talking about the government shutdown. We're talking about the big beautiful bill and changes that they made to SNAP that would take away at a conservative estimate, 6 billion meals. 6 billion meals. For context, the entire Feeding America network, which includes more than 200 food banks and 60,000 faith based and charitable partners, distributed 6 billion meals last year. These numbers were based solely on the program cuts from this past summer's big feudal bill, not a complete program funding freeze like what will begin in November and impact Every single enrollee. So food banks are fantastic about a lot of meals, a lot of stuff. But this program is so wide reaching and it's so far reaching that people are going to go hungry in a very direct way if in fact SNAP is gutted by the big beautiful bill or if it completely goes away during the government shutdown.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I'm mortified by this. I mean, to be honest with you, Van, and I love the breakdown and. Oh, well, keep going. What I was, what I was gonna say is I don't even know. Think it's necessary to fully have to say what SNAP is to understand that people are going to go hungry. And that's really all you need to know. But I appreciate us dispelling, getting rid of some of this misinformation and letting people know exactly what SNAP is for, how rare fraud is, and who it benefits and how it truly is a SNAP supplemental program and not something that people can fully take advantage of, which is what some of the rhetoric is out there from people who are against it. But at the end of the day, people are having to choose whether or not they feed their families or they pay a certain bill. Those are the choices that people are being faced with at the beginning of this month. To me, that is all you need to know to be totally disgusted and mortified at what's happening. But at higher learning, we do provide the background information and we should. No, it's important.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I think it's important to understand this, that all of this stuff is. I want you to think about when we're talking about people who are under resourced, the decisions that they have to make.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Correct.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right. So let's say food banks, for example. I'm going to say this very clearly. Food banks are a fantastic resource for people. And the people that are working at food banks right now need your help. Yes, you can go to the grocery store, buy a whole bunch of food, and then take them to food banks. That is very helpful. But the best thing you can do right now is just to give cash to the food banks. So if you have extra, and I know that not everybody does, but if you have extra, whatever your local food bank is, just throw in some cash. Think about what $200 gets you. Probably should get you more than what it gets you right now. But think about what 300 bucks gets you. Think about what $10 gets you. Remember every single if everybody that listened to this podcast, we're one of the biggest podcasts in the whole world. Probably top five podcasts ever existed in terms of AUDIENCE we are probably the largest we the biggest we the largest ever. I speak it into existence. But if it was $2, if it was $3, the collective right there would really help food banks be able to get a lot of food out to people or have enough food for the demand in case the wrong thing happens with snap. But think about something real quick. A food bank is a place where you have to go, which means you have to do what?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Which means you have to do what? To go, you have to.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

A food bank is a place that you have to go. That means you have to do what, Donnie?

[Donnie]

Travel to the place.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You have to travel, you have to drive.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Now there are some places, bigger cities, New York, Chicago, Louisiana, where public transportation might be such that you can get to the place. But then there are also other rural areas where that is not the case, where you are going to have to have a car, get into a car, go to a. Go to a food bank, which means then that you have to do what? Put gas in that car. So you have to put gas in that car? Yeah. First of all, you have to have the car or you have to get a ride from someone, you have to put gas in that car. Then so you have to pay for the gas or you have to consider the gas that you're going to the food bank and gas that you're going to use other places. So your resources, which are already very tightly budgeted and very finite, are being stretched because of the decision to eat food.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

And let me add one more thing to that. I'm assuming the food bank might not be as close as the grocery store that you used to go to. So now you have to take time away from. Maybe it's something else that you have to do. Maybe it's a job to go travel to wherever this food bank is. So now you're taking away from possibly work, having to maybe figure out how like you're gonna care for your children if you have to spend extra time going to do that. There's a number of factors, a whole bunch of facts.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We could talk about this as it relates to so many different things. If we were talking about voter ID laws and why voter ID laws need to be inclusive in terms of lower income populations is because of, in lower income populations, you see different forms of ID that people have, right? You see more expired licenses, you see people who don't have cars, so they have driver's licenses. Less you see all kinds of different things that when we're talking about these grand, sweeping ideas of what Someone should have. There's just a group of Americans that we do not consider. And one reason why we don't consider those group of Americans is because we are told that those group of Americans are losers in the game of capitalism and that their needs and who they are really don't reflect who we are as a country or what we should care about. They should be doing better. So when the dysfunction comes along and they starve, we don't really give a fuck about it. But the reality is there are so many people that at some point need SNAP benefits. There are so many people that at some point need help in a country where they are made intentionally poor, where the taxing system has become more regressive, where resources have been sucked out of these places, where there is under investment, where they are actually fighting a game against a steroid filled system of gangster capitalism and American oligarchy. That's not fair in the first place. And they just want to eat and they need a little help. So the important thing is during this shutdown, which is happening for all kinds of political reasons, some people may agree with, some people don't agree with that we don't lose sight of the fact that we're, number one, going to have to feed people in the interim if the Trump administration has its way. And then number two, what the big beautiful bill has already done to SNAP, already done. Just so you guys know, there's a 20 hour work week requirement in SNAP. The BBB changes a lot of the exemptions that go into it, right? Some people that are exempt from that work requirement, pregnant mothers, children, the elderly. The BBB raised the age range from 55 to 65. They removed veterans, homeless people, parents of dependents over 14 and former foster care youth older than 18 but younger than 24 from the list of people that are exempt from the work requirements. Honestly, if I was going to make a political issue of that, because I'm looking at it and you know, some of these people that were removed, they just don't care about, right? They, they don't care about homeless people.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Homeless people for sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

They don't care about appearance of dependents over the 14, they don't care about the elderly. But just the decision. And I haven't heard a lot of people, a lot of Democrats bring this up and maybe I'm ignorant to this, but just the decision to remove veterans, just the decision to remove veterans from that to me is profound. If you love the military as much as people say that they do, as much as the right, as much as the conservative party, the conservative movement should I say says that they do. If you love the military that much, why would you make it harder for veterans to eat?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

No, you're making all the sense in the world. I mean, we know Trump doesn't really care about the military. He has said so. Of course he has taken that back. So that doesn't necessarily shock me, I guess for me. And we talked about this, we teased this a little bit last week when we talked about it. This goes in line with what they want to do with Project 2025. I mean, it's. The big beautiful bill is a part of that. But they want to, well, one, they want to use this shutdown as leverage to reshape federal agencies and policy and that includes government assistance programs like snap. They don't care. They don't care because they're so far removed from it, who it's impacting, who it's affecting. They just don't. Or you have politicians who are completely ignorant, not realizing that their very own constituents are, are impacted by this, that use these programs because in their mind people are lazy and they just need to get out and work. And they're not realizing that this is continuing to burden the working class. These people are working and their rent is half of the money. They're working eight 12 hour days, their rent is half of the money they're bringing in. Then they have to provide groceries, then they have to take care of their children, then they have to provide basic necessities of elect utilities, they have to use gas, all these things just to survive. And at the end of the day, they have nothing left over nothing. This is to help them because costs are so much and they just don't realize it. All they're trying to do is shift things that widen the gap and benefit them over the American people. It's party over people, it's policy over people, it's politics over people, it's privilege over people. That's really their new thing.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, it's, yeah, new old, same as before. And you know, another thing is, it's like, you know, when you talk about working people, you could raise the minimum wage, you know, you could raise the minimum wage. I mean, when we talk about the way people have abandoned working people in this country and we, you know, we can move on to Trump's 60 Minutes interview and not belabor this, but when we talk about the way people have abandoned working people in this country, it has been a multi front war. It's been a war on the side of consolidating wealth at the top. Obviously, it's been a war on the infrastructure, the manufacturing jobs, the American dream, in a lot of fundamental ways, what you can attain as an average American. It's been a war on all of that. And it's been a war that's been purposefully waged so that our country can become an entire nation based around financial speculation that is a game for the hyper rich and the ultra wealthy. Right. If you don't really make anything and the life of the average working American is not a part of the calculation about whether or not you have a functioning society, then eventually you come to a situation where there is no consideration for those people as even consumers. We've talked about this before. If you were working in the car plant back in the day, the goal was you should be able to afford the car that you're making.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Sure.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right. The goal was that you should be able to afford the tires that you're making in the tire plant, whatever it is. We could talk about many different industries and all of that stuff, but those jobs move away, right? They're. They're not in America anymore. You don't really give a fuck what people can buy or what they can afford. Like, what you actually care about is that they don't make enough noise to shed light on the fact that this country is rolled up. They, they're. They're betting on the fact that you can pay your mortgage. They roll up all your mortgages into securities, and they, they, they play around with that. They're betting with your 401k. They're betting, they're betting they're better, and they're playing with all of the money and really transferring it to each other. What about you? Then on top of that, when they run out of money to play with, they go, we need more. They go, we need more. So the stuff that we had there, any type of social safety net, we're gonna take a little bit from that. Cut the taxes to make sure the guys that we want to win have the opportunity to win. This is not gloom and doom. This is what's been happening. And the reality is that there's an unwillingness to speak to this and to talk about this, because the people that are in this position where they actually need help don't have any real power. There is no one that really speaks to them or for them.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Well, they thought that there was. I'm watching videos of people crying over the fact that they don't have Medicaid, that they don't know how they're going to pay their next bills, that they don't know, how they're going to feed their families. And then they're saying they voted for Trump. These people voted for Trump because they did not like the economy, they did not like Biden. They felt like Trump was speaking on behalf of them. Trump was working for them. They weren't paying attention to what Trump was really saying. They weren't paying attention. Obviously, a lot of people weren't to project 2025 and the things that he wanted to implement that were going to directly impact them. Why? Because you have your politicians telling you, oh, like a Tommy Tuberville, this is going to affect the inner city. No, it is going to affect at least 15% of the people in your state that are on SNAP. These people who voted under. I. It is. I know some people are ignorant to it, but there are people who voted who understood some of this stuff that was going to happen, but they didn't think that it was going to happen to him. Because what that party does is separate white people or inner city people. Well, white people, suburbian people, rural people from inner city, black and brown people. And it makes you think. I understand these things are going to happen, but I don't think it's going to happen to us. And really what it comes down to is you voted that way not because you didn't think it was going to happen, because you didn't think it was going to happen to you. You allowed them to lie to you and tell you that you're different from the inner city, from black and brown people, and those policies will be implemented, but you will be. You will be saved in all of that. And then the reality is, no, it is affecting you because you are on the same benefits that some of these other people are. And at the end of the day, it's not just the politicians, it's the people. People need to understand exactly what it is that they're voting for, who they're voting for, and how it directly impacts them. And I hope that they're realizing it now more than they did ever. But people have to stop voting for just themselves and realizing that the policy will affect you, too. I really think that they bought into that lie. I really think people were okay with this happening. They thought that they were. That it wasn't gonna happen to them. You don't think so?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I think. I disagree.

[Jomi Adeneron]

I'm not.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I do. I think you're. I think you're right. But let me tell you why. I am convinced that this Needs to be. First of all, I don't disagree. You're right. But let me tell you why I think we need to go or we need to start penetrating a little bit deeper there. Okay, Danny, let me tell you why. Okay, so we are dealing with a low information voter problem.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yes. That's just how they want it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We are dealing with people who don't understand in a lot of cases, the impact on their lives that some of these policy decisions will have. That's true. They are being made that way, purposefully.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Correct.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So the battle that to me, the average person is fighting right now against misinformation and disinformation is herculean. It's a gigantic, huge battle. And if we look at a couple of things that have happened, number one, the deterioration of the educational system, the rise of social media, the lack of verification. The lack of verification, the intentionality of keeping people low information, and the fear that goes along with scarcity. There is to me a greater. There's a greater problem. And the greater problem to me is not that the people themselves are falling victim to being misled. The greater problem is that there is a tremendous incentive by powerful people to mislead them. And so to me, I could make an argument that a lot of what I'm talking about doesn't have very much to do with party. I can make an argument that the Democrats have forfeited their role in American politics as being the party of the working people. That this corporate capture that I'm talking about exists everywhere. That it's not just the far right or the Republicans or the MAGA Republicans that have fallen victims to being captured by a corporate class. And that it's not just them that have abandoned working people. It's not just them. That it's the American political infrastructure itself that has done that.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And that there have been mistakes made from presidents and local leaders on both sides of the aisle. And that if there was really a focus on working people or a focus on protecting working people, protecting black people, then there would have been different decisions made all over the place. Right. And the reason why that's important to say is because it's very easy right now, in my opinion. Not wrong, but it's very easy right now to look at somebody and to say, you should know better like it is. It's very easy to say that. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't say it.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

That's not what I mean. But yes, I understand what you're saying.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that. You shouldn't say it. What I'm saying right now, though, is that they don't. You know what I mean?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

You're not wrong.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And if they're going to be immiserated by someone who lies to them, who whips them up, there is definitely an amount of personal responsibility. That's why it's. I gotta call out one thing. And I've been on this train before, too. There's something that happens and it's funny, but it's also not funny. And I smile even in thinking of it, because it is funny that people, when people do it. So whenever something happens and a Trump administration policy comes out, it's involving Latino people.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I already know what you're going to say.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay. They will show the Latino person that has been wronged, and then the next slide will be, I will vote for Donald Trump.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

The song, the song, the song.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And first of all, that song is ridiculous. All right? That song is ridiculous. And that song, the back to back of See and See, this is the thing. It is the back to back of like a guy with an accent or whatever saying, this happened to me. And then a slide where it's, I will vote for Donald Trump is. It's jarring because it's like, listen, this is how you got played. That is true. I understand that. But at the same time, I do think that we're past it now.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay? I hope we are past it. You are correct. I don't disagree with anything you said. The only thing I will say is you're right. Because even it was something that we put in our group chat where you have these fake videos out here right now about outrage of black women that they're using right now on AI with like 10 kids jumping behind them that don't even look like them and they're, you know, like, screaming about having multiple baby daddies and how are they gonna pay for it? And it's fake, but you have people actually with platforms reacting to fake videos. So you're right. That is so hard to compete with. What also is hard to compete with. Which it's not a. I'm not saying you should know better. It's fighting people's desire to climb the social caste system that exists within our country. It's a hierarchy that it is hard to combat. That there are people, no matter how poor, how desperate they are, they thrive on, at least I'm better than them. And it's what politicians, I feel like do is play into that mentality of I might be on snap and you might be on snap, but you're lazy and you're not working. At least I'm working. You're using it for your nails and your weave. I'm using it for it to provide for my family. I'm trying, I'm trying to dig myself out of this hole and achieve the American dream. You're a burden on the system and you're taking advantage of it, playing into that. So I'm better than you. That's where I don't excuse. And I think a lot of that exists without realizing, hey, we're both struggling, we're both in the working class, we're lower income. We need this assistance. We need the government to work and represent us on behalf of us, so, you know, we can just survive. Right? Not struggle, check to check. Instead you have people separating themselves to try to one up to try to be better, because that makes them feel better about their place in this society. By standing on someone and putting them down.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Why do they do that?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

It's people want. It's the social caste system they want.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But why, why would someone like, think about this? Why would someone risk immiserating themselves to uphold a social caste system that doesn't benefit them?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Why would they do that for favor? I think people just have it. It is inherently within people to want to be better than other people. It makes them feel more powerful. It makes them feel like they're in a better situate in society. It's a myth, obviously. But I just think knowing that it goes back to the Latino example that you're saying those things directly impacted them, but they felt that they were at least better than another group of people. I don't know what to call it. I don't know the exact answer that you're saying.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

First of all, you're right. But I guess my question is, what would make that a thing? And if you say that it's inherent in people to want to be better than other people, I do. I actually disagree with that. Right. So I think cooperation between people is inherent. I think that there's always been like.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

If history has predictive value, that's what we've always seen is somebody putting one group of people down in order to better themselves up in order. It's why you have a crab mentality. It's why you have people who pull the ladder up from behind them. I mean, look at fucking J.D. vance. You know, the very system you grew up on, you are trying to diminish.

[Jomi Adeneron]

Right?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

You know what I mean? It's people pull people don't like being better than other people. I do think that, that. I'm not saying everybody plays into that, but I do think that that is inherently within us.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I think that that's a direct response to capitalism.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I think. I think. I think a system of winners or losers makes you want to be one of the wis. One of the winners. I think even slavery and the slave trade, the transatlantic slave trade, chattel slavery in America, all over the world is. This is directly. I think all of this stuff is directly linked to competition for resources. And competition for resources means. Okay, so how are we going to get to where we're going? Number one, all right, we've exhausted the resources where we're here. Let's go to another place where people don't understand the warlike way of life that we live. Let's go over there and let's exploit them for resources. All right? Now, as we exploit them for resources, we're Portuguese. We have to exploit them for resources better than Spain does. Right? We have to keep Spain. Okay, now here come the French. The French want to get in on some of this. All right, now who has the best way to exploit these native people? Okay, cool. Now how can we work faster? Oh, we can work faster if we don't have to pay people. All right, so what do we do? We then go get slaves to. To. To get the bananas, the rice, the indigo, all of that. It's cheaper, it's better. Now how do we keep the mechanism of slavery and the American system going? How do we establish a baseline for what an American system, American citizen, really is? Well, we have to have a group of people that you don't have to care about. So in order to keep them enslaved, we have to then sell you on the religion that you don't have to care about them. Nigger. Nigger is what they are. And what don't you have to care about a nigger? You don't have to care about a nigger. You don't have to care about a nigger's kids. You don't have to care about a nigger's grandmother. You don't have to care about anything that happens to a nigger. Why? We need niggers in the field, okay? After the niggers are gone, us actually having a reconciliation with the. With ourselves, will be giving them full citizenship. Well, we can't do that. We can't do that because we still need an example in America on what not to be. Why? Because the resources here are finite and we already decided we don't want a nigger to have nothing. So since the resources are finite, or at least we think that they are, we don't want a nigger to have nothing. Let's make sure the rest of the world knows that it is better off living in a country where you have something and a nigger doesn't. That is the white male orthodoxy that exists and has existed for America since inception. My thing is a critique of that definitely includes the people that believe in it. Of course, it definitely includes the people that believe in it. But my primary critique is the people that propagate it over and over and over and over again and the people that fall through the cracks between it. And that's always gonna be power. It's always gonna be the people that say, hey, I know what it would take to feed people, but rather than feed them, I'll arrange them in a death match and a grudge match between each other. And then they will both not realize that they're eating the same gruel.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And those people have an intentionality, particularly in this situation right here where so many of the people here are undereducated and are being. Are worshiping at the altar of what it is that we're talking about. And this is not, by the way.

[Donnie]

Some.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Hyper humanist view of the world that doesn't include a disdain and me despising racism or me despising classism. To me, after a while, it just becomes an accurate way to diagnose this problem and get to an end of it. Because I can't change people's hearts and minds. The tradition of racism that has existed in them since time immemorial. I can't get to the middle of their heart, but I can say to them that you will be poor too, that you will be. That you will starve too. And I have to be able to say that there is somebody who benefits from you starving. And so that right there, I'm still formulating. And we can have this conversation in a grander way and we can play the Trump clip too. I'm still formulating a way to make that less about the things that trigger me personally and more about a critique of the system that we're.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

You're not wrong. You're not wrong. We're both, I think, saying the same things. The system is playing into the very thing that I am talking about. And until people realize you don't one till power actually starts helping people, but also people realizing, hey, we're all just fighting to survive. It's not me over you, you over me. We're all trying to work just so we can find our place and have the things we need within this country. It's both. Both have to work together.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Give me an example. Donnie, listen to this. This is Trump was on 60 Minutes. This Trump clip is what I'm talking about. Donnie, play it. I mean, I could go point. These are not.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

These are 99 to 1 issues and they don't change. I just want.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I watched this morning. Mr. President, can I ask you about the economy? Yeah, just one thing. I watched a show this morning where.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

A very well known Democrat congressman was fighting like hell for men playing in women's sports.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

They don't change.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Who was that?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I don't want to tell you. You'll be able to check it. Just check your local tv.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay. On the economy.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Now, in any functional democracy, that would be a let them eat cake moment. Like seriously, in any actual honest, functional democracy, that would be a let them eat cake moment. Mr. President, Mr. President, Mr. President. The economy. Can we talk about the economy? Let's not talk about the economy. Let's talk about the fact that there is a well known, unnamed, Anonymous, I guess Democrat that he didn't want to actually name that is talking about the trans issue as far as men playing women's sports. So let's not talk about a legitimate issue about rising grocery prices, about a different economy for the rich and the average working American. Let's talk about the culture war issue that can whip people up and not about their needs. In any functional.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Intelligent democracy, that would be. Well, this guy clearly doesn't give a fuck about the fact that things are tough for us.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, and he's also making it seem like in that clip the Democrats don't care about what's happening. They're more focused on transgender rights than they are the economy.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's kind of what I'm talking about. Now you might dare. There's also a retort to this, and I can hear you guys, that says van, people actually are moved by that. And you're right, you're right. People are actually moved by that. People are still being moved by culture war issues that want to cast trans people, black people, Latino people, a lot of people that are not a part of the straight white male orthodoxy. They want to cast them in a way that makes them seems like, seem like goons and ghouls and people that are trying to steal their version of America. That is true. And those people do buy into that. I guess what I'm saying is now that this is being done purposefully. It's being done for a long time. It's, by the way, not just being done on the right. It's not. The abandonment of working Americans is not just happening on the right.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And so. So to me, that's where we put the pressure. While we acknowledge that these people don't want to eat with us, they don't want to sit with us, they don't want to be cool with us, they don't want to have a fun time with us, Us, the blacks, the blicks.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

But they are having a fun time. This is what I mean. Like, you talk about the let them eat cake moment. Trump is literally, literally playing in the face of the American people, the working class. How you throw a party. Not only do you throw a party while people are trying to figure out how they're going to feed their families first, you're out of the country, dancing in the street. Dancing in the street. Like the country is trying to figure out what's the next step forward. And you, outside of the country having a good old time, you come back and what do you do? You throw a party. But not just a party at the White House. You throw a Great Gatsby party. You can't make that up. You throw a Great Gatsby party. He is playing in your faces. He is trolling you. He is laughing at you. He is literally saying this. It's the roaring twenties and we all know what happened after that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah. And by the way, and by the way, Aaron Sorkin, not Aaron Sorkin. What's his name? Andrew Ross Sorkin. Andrew Ross Sorkin. He wrote a book about 1929, about the crash. Now there's gonna be a bubble that pops on AI we've been talking about. It might not be as bad as 29, might not be as bad as 08, might not be, but it will be bad. So the reality is the excess, all the. The decadence. There's a cost. And they're trying to make sure that the right people pay the cost. All right.

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[Van Lathan Jr.]

I want to say, I want to talk about one thing real quick.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I want to talk about Halloween. Now, this is interesting. We have Karine Jean Pierre on the show today, by the way. We haven't mentioned that she's gonna be on the show. We're gonna do a long interview with her about her book Independent. She talks about a broken White House.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

She does. And she makes it clear which broken White house she's talking about. Little confusing. Little confusing title.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Confusing, little confusing people thought. And she's gonna explain that. But I wanna say something, and it's gonna be tough for people to understand why I'm saying this. All right. So Halloween came and we get what we get every Halloween, which was some blackface.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Oh, yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You know, every Halloween there's some blackface. And I said something on Twitter about one specific piece of blackface and one specific person that did the blackface. And when I saw this, I looked at it and I was like, we have to ignore this. Don't bring up her name.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Don't bring up her name. No Shine.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay, then why are we talking about it?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Because it's important to talk about the overall mechanism. No Shine.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Jesus.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No Beep the name. No Shine. No Shine whatsoever. No Shine. I'll tell you guys something. Our outrage. Let me stop. We have to ignore some of this. We have to. Black outrage has always been an industry for racist. Always. But it's different now. It's different now because of the X payment system. The X payment system essentially makes everybody on X into a digital pimp.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

True.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And the rise of new media agitators that are out there that want to be pimps, they want to pimp your outrage. They want to put you on a digital whole stroll. They want you to do the work and then to bring the clicks and the attention back to them so they can directly monetize it for you. That's their entire deal. They offer not even anything serious, not even anything halfway interesting to any type of debate. Their only existence is based upon ruining your day. That person, I know, it's tough. Has got to be ignored.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

It's actually not.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It Is tough for a lot of people because seeing racism and not calling it out is a pro evolutionary trait for black people. It's pro evolutionary to say, hey, I was treated wrong here. I was. I had a bad experience here. Everybody that's black, big red sign, don't go here. They killing us over here. I get it. There's something that's different that's happening now and we got to ignore it. We have got to ignore it because we are actually enriching people.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That are playing upon the emotions, the trauma, the experiences of us and our ancestors to make them directly wealthy.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

This is what I will say about this person in particular, right? It to me, let's not even forget.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

About even name and all the things.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Let's have a conversation.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Let me tell you why I don't get outraged like this. Like, I get outraged like when we have the Tyler and outrage is a stretch, but, like, you know, give attention to what we saw happen with Tyler, the creator, and talking about, you know, his place in music and all of that and how it's a thing, right? The audience, the things he did to troll where he is now, the evolution of the artist, that's a whole different conversation. I'll talk about that. I'll even get upset and annoyed by that kind of stuff. But when I see this, I'm at a point, and maybe this is me getting older and I do see this rhetoric on social media. It's the. It's not our fight guys. Don't worry about it. The whole notion of they're so obsessed with us, that's kind of where I settle in. You know, everything about what we do, how we. Or not exactly what we do, but you know what I mean, like the things we like to wear or like when you're trying to imitate us in ways that we don't do that for you. You are very much so obsessed with what we're doing, how we're doing it. And to me, that's where I land to where I don't even wanna respond. I don't even care anymore because it's just you trying to play into. I get it now and again, this might be my maturity in it all. What I will say to people, though, is, you're right, don't respond, don't share these blogs, don't repost their. Like this, this so and so did this and get people outraged instead. Just silently. If you feel like you must do something, just report it in that way. In that way, you're not interacting with their Post in any kind of way, they're not gaining anything from it. Just go report this as a violation. If you feel like you must do something right, and that kind of thing has an effect. One of the people we're discussing is banned from a social media platform. And I'm sure from this very reason.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Every time you say one of the.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

People, you're giving it shine, you know what I mean? There have been people who have been banned because people reported. So I won't tell you to do nothing. I'll just say there is a way to go behind it, to get this person, to get people like this removed from social media to where they can't continue to harass and be upset. Obsessed with us in a way that is offensive. I saw it and I kept scrolling.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So this is my thing, the obsession thing, all of that. I get it, I understand it, whatever. If somebody has corporate power, if somebody has cultural power, if somebody has organizing power, if the Tyler the Creator situation, Tyler the Creator is in community with us, right? He's gonna ask you to buy something, he's gonna ask you to attend something that is worth litigating, right? If you go into a restaurant, you like to eat at the restaurant, and the restaurant got a nigga table where everybody is saying, nigga, nigga, nigga, nigga, nigga, nigga, nigga. You go to the people in the restaurant and you say, hey, if the nigga table stays here, I won't eat here. And then I'll go outside and tell everybody not to eat here. Somebody has political power, cultural power, organizing power, all of that. They're commanding great swaths of people, all of this stuff. You have the duty and the ability to say, hey, we don't want to fuck with this, I get it. But there are rogue people that are existing just to try to get to that perch off your outrage. And we have just simply got to ignore these people.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I agree.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We just have. We have got to ignore them. We can't give them any type of light and shine. This is the last time I'll even talk around this. But for everybody out there that's just doing the whole thing. We all know that racism exists. We know that people trade in racism. We know all of this. But unless there is some fundamental effect on us, something that people are asking from us or people that have actual power, we just gotta let the peons talk to themselves. It's just the way that it's going to go. That's it. That's it. We got to do that. We got to do that.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I agree.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Let's pause and let's bring in Karine Jean Pierre.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Let's talk to her about her book, Higher Learning. There's a book out right now that is making the rounds. You're everywhere.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

You're everywhere.

[Jomi Adeneron]

You are.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Am I? I'm in a bubble, so it's hard to get a real sense of what's happening.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Really.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Mm. You know. You know, when you're in the bubble, you're just, like, going from one place to another to another. You're getting on a flight, going to this event. You're not. You're not in reality. You're in your own pocket.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

We're about to. We're going into the bubble. We're popping the bubble.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Please pop the bubble.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The book is independent. A look inside a broken White House, outside party lines. Karen Jean Pierre joins us on Higher Learning today. How are you?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I'm, you know, I'm good. I'm good. I'm here with y'. All. It's beautiful in la.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Oh, my God.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Nice. We're having. Really hot.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

It's hot. No, I was like, oh, I got to take, like, layers off. It's really hot.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

White House press secretary under President Joe Biden. Vice President Kamala Harris. Explain to our audience, before we even get into the book, what prompted you to write it. The theme of the book, tell people what the White House press secretary does.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

So the White House press secretary, which was. It was a privilege and an honor, I always say that, to have been White House press secretary because I spoke for the most powerful person in the world, the President of the United States. And I did it as a first. I was the first black person, the first openly queer person, the first immigrant, like many first. And so I carried all these communities with me in the job. And so it was. It made it much more special to have had the job. So my. What I was, my portfolio and what I was charged to do was to speak on behalf of the president of the administration to the American people. Obviously, doing it in the press briefing room with the press and going back and forth, but pushing out what we were trying to do, pushing out our message and trying to answer really hard questions and important questions that the American people needed to know. And so I did it for two and a half years. I am currently right now, the longest serving female press secretary, because it's not a job that you should do for very long, because it's a pretty stressful job. But again, it was an honor and a privilege, and that was my role for two and a half years and I got to travel around the world, across the country. And it was an experience that I will never have again in my life.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, I, anytime I see you or someone in that position, take that podium, I'm always like, I like things moving fast. I like the live action, I like the change. But that is one of the most stressful, anxious jobs. And you don't really know what's coming at you too.

[Donnie]

You don't.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

So you can't even really prepare for it. As much preparation as I'm sure you had. What does one do to relax or. Did you ever relax or come down in those two hours?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

It's hard because it's, it's seven days a week. You're constantly on your phone. You have two phones. Right. You're constantly, it's, it's always buzzing and someone needs something from you. 12, 15 hour days. And so what I ended up doing for myself was I would wake up, I Woke up at 4:30 every morning and I would pray, I would meditate and I would exercise. If I did not do those things, I don't think I would have been able to survive. And it was my moment, my time, which is one of the reasons I woke up so early so I could be able to do that. But that was, that was it. I mean, it's very isolating too when you have these types of jobs where the camera's on you, everybody, the focus is on you. You really don't have a personal life because you're recognized everywhere that you go. And so you feel very isolated and so you don't really have a lot of outlets. Yeah. So you have to create a safe space for yourself, which is also very difficult.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

You came out looking great, but it.

[Interviewer/Host]

Didn'T get to you.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

They call it the White House. Post, post, White House, Glow up.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

It's a real thing.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

It's a real thing. It's a. Oh, I didn't think about that.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I know that well.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Oh, okay, okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's like, okay, this, this book is in part an examination of the two party system in America.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yes, yes. And I'm glad you said that. That's exactly what it is.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's in part an examination of that. I have talked about it at great length on this podcast and I've lost faith in party. I don't believe in the structure of party anymore. Political clubs, be that as they may, what was your decision? To leave the Democratic Party.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

And I'm so glad you set it up that way because that's exactly it. And when I'm talking about the broken White House, I'm actually talking about the current White House. And yes, to me, the two party system is broken, right? And when you do not have a functioning party system, then your democracy becomes something that's fractured as well. And right now our democracy is hanging by a shoestring and the parties are just not working. One party is completely lost and the other party, I feel, is not fighting enough. And so the book came about when I left the White House in January after the Biden Harris term was done. I was bumping into people, whether at the airport, at my kids school pool or at a coffee shop. And folks would be like, what's going on? Why weren't they, why weren't the Democrats ready? Why aren't they fighting? I mean, they're like Project 2025. Like it's going like he's going at it. And at the time was anti dei, right, Going after federal agencies, these really, these really, these secretaries that he was nominating that were not qualified, that were basically against the agencies that they were supposed to be secretaries and head of. And so I thought to myself, yeah, what is going on? And that was the reason of writing the book. But it also goes back to the administration time and what I saw when I was in, obviously as White House press secretary. I mean, the fact that Kamala Harris, who should have won, didn't win, was heartbreaking. And 92% of black women came out once again. And, and I do feel like the party forgets us. We are the backbone of the party. We are on, on the front lines and they largely forget us. And, and I think they should have fought harder. They should have been behind her a lot more, the party leadership. And they weren't. And I think there was something that was missing. So there was a lot of like, disillusionment and scratching my head, like, what happened? Like, how did we get here? And that's when I started to examine, okay, how do I have a voice in this? And when you look at independence, and I'm not asking for a third party, I'm asking to fix the system so that independents can actually participate in the system. So if there's a closed primary, independence, which are millions of voters out there, they can't participate. And independents are people who are saying, basically what you're saying is, I don't see myself represented in either party, but I want to participate. But then you can't participate in closed primaries. So to me that's a problem with the system. And so we have to make the system more about the people and less about the parties. And so that's the conversation that I'm trying to have. I'm trying to start a conversation. But also. So that's one part of it, and the other part of it, too, is how do I put myself in a situation where I can push party leadership in the Democratic Party to do better, to do more, and not. Not to throw vulnerable communities under the bus? Which is one of the things that I started to see very, very early on in 2025.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You know, the. I saw that you said that when you meant a broken White House, that you don't mean the Biden White House, that you mean the Trump White House. Nobody believes that.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Well, because the book was written to be in the moment. I was literally. If you, you know, when you read the book, you'll see that I'm talking about what's happening right now and meeting the moment. I mean, people didn't believe that because they want a tell. All right? I think people are. They, you know, they assume the book was going to be, I'm telling secrets and I'm not. The book doesn't have secrets in it. The book is literally talking about my experience, and I get to speak from my point of view, but I'm not telling secrets about, you know, my bosses. Right. I'm not, I'm not saying, oh, and this happened. And. Because that's not the part of the book, that's not the purpose of the book. So, folks, I think when the COVID came out and they didn't read the press, the press release that came with the COVID I think the assumption was, oh, she's writing a tell all. But the book is much more nuanced and has much more depth, and it really is about meeting the moment. Yes, I give a story about what happened and, you know, kind of pull back the curtains and give a little bit of what it was like to be a first and what it's like to be a White House press secretary. But I am trying to talk about the moment that we're in and how do we move forward? Because these are dangerous times. I mean, in, in, by tomorrow, November 1st, people are gonna lose. You know, folks who really need, who really need snap are gonna lose it. We're talking about kids, elderly, we're talking about disabled people. They're gonna lose it. I mean, that, I mean, we are headed towards a food, a food desert, which we haven't seen since the Great Depression.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

There was nothing, in your opinion, that was broken about The Biden White House.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I mean, what I would say is that we didn't get everything right. I'm not.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What are some of the big things that you guys got?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I mean, look, I feel like, could we have done more in climate change? We did some. Could we have done more? Could we have done more on the economy? We could always do more in the economy, right? I mean, there are tons of things that I feel like we could have done more, but I also, we. Objectively, it was a success. Objectively, it was a successful three years. And what I mean by that is we came in with multiple crises. The economy, Covid and I mean, I could. Climate change, I can name it. And we were able to start the process in turning all of that around, passing historic legislation, whether it's the bipartisan infrastructure legislation, whether it's making sure people got out of COVID Chips. Chips. I mean, you name it, we were able to do big things for our veterans. We were able to expand healthcare. And that was the beginning. And a lot of that was historic. And one of the things that we wanted to do and the president and the vice president wanted to do is make sure that everything that we did had equity at the center of it. So you're not leaving black and brown communities or communities who are normally forgotten when you're trying to fix things and make things better. And so that's historic. I think historians will look at the three years of the Biden Harris administration and will say it was one of the most effective domestically in trying to make things better, in moving the country forward than we have seen in modern politics.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Last we can move into. We get off the. So as you note things that you could have done better on, I think there's one glaring thing that people are going to ask if you could have done better on this and have, of course, is the genocide that happened in Gaza. And as we reexamine the Biden White House, it seems that that is something that people, be it Vice President Harris, yourself, Joe Biden himself, you guys seem reluctant to talk about that, how you feel about it, how people felt about it, especially as things is. It continues to be a story that seemingly gets worse.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

So I have talked about how I feel about it. It's devastating, it's messed up, it's awful. And you guys feel like you could.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Have done better on that.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Look what I will say. Yes, I do. I do think that more could have been done. I couch it because I'm not a foreign policy expert. It was not my policy. I spoke about it because that was the job. That's every White House press secretary job. And it was. And it would be inhumane and I would not be a human or a person if I didn't say what is happening and what has occurred and where we are today in Gaza, in the Middle east is heartbreaking. It's awful. And we need to get to a resolution. I know there's a temporary ceasefire. There needs to be peace in the Middle East. And it is not something that I wanted to see. I don't think it's anything that anybody in the administration wanted to see. I hope Joe Biden, the president is writing a book right now, and I hope he has an opportunity and I'm pretty sure that he will speak to it and lay out what his thoughts were, lay out why he went forward in the policy decisions that he made. But again, it was, you know, you have these jobs and like every other person that's dealt with every difficult issues on in different administration, you have a job, you speak on behalf of the President of the United States. And it's not my policy. It's not something that, you know, I'm not speaking for Karine Jean Pierre. But yes, it was awful. It was awful. And it would be, I would be lying if I didn't say it was awful. It was terrible and it was hard to watch and the violence needs to stop.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

You talk about, and you talked a little bit about it when you talked about the title of the book and A Look Inside a Broken White House, if Joe Biden had not. I guess I'm curious. I'm trying to figure out when it became broken to you because you were a Democrat, you were in the party while you were working with Joe Biden, did you feel like the leadership was broken? Did you feel like the party was, was broken in a sense that the messaging was off, or was there? Does that, did that point change for you when what you call in the book a betrayal?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

So first, I want to say, like, the results from November 20, 2024, obviously are not what we wanted. And I think we all take accountability. We all have to take accountability. And when I say we all, meaning the Biden Admin, Biden Harris administration, the party, including myself, because we missed something. We clearly missed something. I talked about the economy, but clearly people weren't feeling it. And as the data showed, the economy was better. People were like, look, we're not feeling this. And I think there was an incumbency issue. There were all a lot of things that happened that I have to lay out. That we all should be really aware of. And I have to speak to what I saw. And I talk about a betrayal to Joe Biden, but I also talk about, like, what they almost did to Kamala Harris as well. So the betrayal to me is we have 150, 40 days left. And I get it. The debate, it was bad. It was awful. Not gonna say that it wasn't, but I feel like the way that they treated him was just the worst thing that I've ever seen anybody treat someone. Who's they Democratic leadership and who. Well, I'm not going to call people out, but they know who they are. Not that. Yeah, but I. Look, there was a. There was a. There was a. A campaign. A campaign. Every single day, somebody was coming out, somebody from the governor, you know, the governor's sides, the congressional side, and it was just ugly. And I just thought, this is not how you do it. This is not how you behave. And one of the things that I say is we were eating our own. And really, I feel destroying the party while the Republicans were quiet. They didn't say anything that would. They didn't barely said anything that was happening with. With Joe Biden and what. What was going on. Which means to me that they saw the Democratic Party and they were like, oh, they're like destroying themselves or they.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Wanted Joe Biden to stay.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, look, because they were talking about.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

No, no, no, they were. They were. But I'm talking about the campaign. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the campaign that was happening with the Democratic leadership. Yes. I'm not. Yes, they were talking about his age, all of those things. Everybody was talking about his age. And then when he decided to. To step down, there was talk about having an open primary, a brokered convention. And I'm like, well, why are we doing that? Why are we not giving her an opportunity? She is more than qualified. She's the current vice president. She was on the ticket with Joe Biden during the primary. And so there was that talk. And so it was. To me, it was incredibly fractured. It was a behavior that was unbecoming, and it was problematic for me.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Can you elaborate a little bit, I guess, on how you feel like the Democratic leadership failed him? Because you mentioned the debate. We all saw the debate. Kamala Harris talks about it in her book.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I don't know if you've had a.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Chance to read it, but she talks about it in her book where she says everybody saw the same thing, but the messaging that was told to her was that you need to say how great of a job he did. Almost like ignore what you saw. That's not what she says verbatim, but it is that she was told to say he did great and all of these things. And she said that she was kind of reprimanded for how she did respond in regards to it.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Oh, I thought she did a great. I talk about it in the book. I thought she did a great job responding to the debate. I'm. I would.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

She says they told her. I think she did too.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

She was.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

She. She makes the.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I haven't read the book yet.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay, I'm gonna read it.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

But I haven't read it.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

But she makes the assertion that she was told you need to talk about how well he did.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Okay.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

And she felt uncomfortable because she, she saw what everyone else did, that he did not do a good job.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

So I haven't read it yet. And I will say this. I think she did a phenomenal job as the. Being on top of the ticket. I'm glad she wrote the book and I think it's important for her to tell her truth. So I'm not going to deny her what she said. One of the things that I know that she said, and I saw it in an expert, she did say, and she said it multiple times, that she always thought that he was more than capable of leading and that if she had ever seen anything, that she cared about the American people in this country more. So she has been very clear about. No, I never saw anybody who couldn't lead who was in decline. Like she has actually has said that several times. So that leads me to your question about the debate. Look.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Or the leadership. The leadership. The leadership have done. I think after we all witnessed conversations.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Look, here's what I believed. Look, I think there's good. I. There's a question of should he have ran? You know, she had decided to do the re election or not. That should have happened in 2023. Like I feel like that conversation should have happened. If they felt like he shouldn't have done it, it should have happened in 2023 and it didn't. And now you're in the summer of 2024 and when you do stuff like this, when you, when you take down the head of the Democratic Party or you attack the head of the Democratic Party, it's going to have some effect on, on people who do support Biden or people who did support the administration. I feel like it just, it doesn't look good as a unison as we're trying to bring everybody Together as we're trying to bring the base together to move forward to win in November 2024. I actually thought, I believe it was detrimental to what we're trying to do in winning and in winning, and that's where my head was at. It's like, okay, how we're doing this, but how, how does that look for other, to other people, how we're going to win if we do this? And then to say, okay, you know, it may not be her, it has to be somebody else. I mean, I just feel like you're sending a message that we're not together. We don't, we're not in unison. We're, we're, we're not trusting of, of Kamala Harris to be at the top of the ticket. Once Joe Biden decided not to do it. I just don't think it looked good for us as a party moving forward. I think it was, I do think it caused some damage. I really do.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Point taken.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Counterpoint.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Couple of things. One, is it possible that once Americans saw the debate that things were already too far gone? I mean, we're watching the debate and I think sometimes the disconnect is this. I'll say a couple of things. Number one, on the economy, part of the reason why the, there was a glitch in communication between the base of the party as far as the people and maybe the higher ups on the economy is because the media didn't help educate Americans on the actuality of the economy. That's because we have a left leaning media. So the, they will point to things like the stock market. They will point to other things that don't directly have an effect on what the average American is feeling. And they would say these are, this is proof that the stock, that, that the economy is doing just fine. Now we know that there is almost two economies operating in America. One that Americans have almost no participation in and another one that is the actual economy, the real economy. And I can make an argument that we are investigating those things now because there's a Republican in office. Right.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I agree. I don't disagree with anything that you just said. I totally, completely agree. And I have a chapter in the book about the media and their role in all of this. And I do think that one of the reasons that it was hard to break through is how the media was reporting it. But not just that there's misinformation, disinformation. Right. There's so many things right now in this moment. And this is one of the things that I'm trying to say in the book too, is being an independent thinker. Like, I'm not even asking people to be independent in a sense of like, leaving the party, but we now have to be independent thinkers in the sense where we have to question everything that we see. We have to fact check, we have to break through. Because people are not really getting information from traditional media. Right. They're getting information from, from Spotify, watching your show, watching, and we have to be better.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'll take responsibility for some of the fact of the reporting that, that, that happened, that we did.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah, but I'm not, But I'm not saying that wrong.

[Jomi Adeneron]

I'm just letting people know because a.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Bunch of people that's gonna be like, man, you told us the economy was good too. I was like, yeah, but like, that's what I was reading. A lot of things were up, but they were not up, they were down.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

But so it's, it's, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot of nuance and a lot of things to unpack. But yes, I think the media, I think social media, you know, the social platforms, I think misinformation, disinformation, you have to be. You have to do so much work as a voter, as a citizen, citizen to make sure you have the right information. And it is harder to do that now than ever before, than ever before because you have leaders who are lying to you, like, lying. And so it is incredibly hard, incredibly difficult right now in this moment. So I don't think you're wrong. I think, like, you're, you're onto something that we are just kind of learning right now. And I talk about that in the book. It's. Look, look, you know, one of the things, like, one of the things about the book is I really am very worried about where we are in this moment. And yes, I want to start. Start a conversation. Yes, the book is starting a conversation, but I really want people to stay engaged. And it's so hard because when you think the system isn't working for you, which is broken, and when you think that leaders are not representing you, you want to walk away from it. But the thing is, we have to figure out a way to get engaged, whether it's in our community and do something in our community that's worth it, that makes movement, that you see the effects or figure out something else. And one of the things that I've been trying to tell young people is you got to get involved, okay? Run for something. That's why Mamdani in New York City is one of the most impressive things that I've seen in a long time. 33, 34 years old, socialist, Democrat. I mean, he talks directly to the American people. He's talking about housing. He's talking about things that matter to folks. And it's. Young people came out and voted from. In a primary. In a primary. And it bothered me that Democratic. Again, Democratic leadership. Got it. We're trying to get in the way.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Just.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah, go ahead. No, no, no, go ahead.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I want to talk about. But in many ways, it's the same thing from the debate. Real quick. So by the time the debate was on television, I look at the debate in Mandani and almost. It's almost the same thing. We're looking at him. We're looking at it being successful. We're looking at it working. We're looking.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

You're talking about. Mum, Donnie. Okay, gotcha.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We're looking at somebody cut through, talk directly to people, galvanize people. We're looking literally at someone turning the page on communication and connection. And then we're looking at the establishment of the party. Stop it. The same thing with the debate was we looked at Joe Biden.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm not believing anyone, not Kamala Harris, not anyone that tells me that that guy could run the country.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I hear you very.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm looking at Joe Biden on the stage. And this is after having seen Joe Biden in many different settings and went. And just looking at it, going, you know, I don't know. That doesn't. And everybody. He's fine. He's fine, he's fine. And then he gets up there during the debate at a point where you physically, visually need to see somebody fight the actual thing that's on the other side, and he can't muster it. But then he's going to leave and be completely capable of running the country. I just. It looked impossible.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

And I hear you, and I'm not denying anything that you said. I'm just talking again from my personal perspective on someone that I saw every single day, someone that I traveled with more than 95% of the time. And what I saw that night was not the person that I know, that I see all the time. It just wasn't. It was not him. And I was shocked. I was surprised. We all were. No one is denying that. But what I'm saying is it is not the person that I know. I got to see him. I got to see him every single day. Every single day, and that was not him. That just wasn't Him.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I think this is where it gets into. Like we often talk about messaging. You talk about it in your book as well. Yeah, yeah. Talk about messaging, talk about how we feel. Like the Democrats just don't get it. Right. And that's the thing that I think that Van is pointing out. Perception is reality.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

It is.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

And what we found that out, I was very much so. Like I would see something and I like, okay, I see him at the Juneteenth. There's no way they would tell us. There's no way. He was just caught up in the moment. It was, you know, and then you saw the debate and there was no denying it. So when perception is reality, that's when it's like, when do you put yourself. I mean, it ended up happening, but it seems that it was. If it was forced. When do you put yourself to the side over the country.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

And I think that's something that we took away from everything that happened surrounding Biden. And I'll use the word betrayal. I don't know if you could fully answer this question, but it was off. We, we thought Joe Biden was going to be a one term president. Now, I know he didn't actually say the word, but he would say transition.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

No, he did. He said he was gonna be a trans. You're a thousand percent correct. Yeah.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Is it right for us to say that we feel it was a bit of a betrayal that you said that this is what you were gonna do and you positioned yourself this way and then at the last minute things turned.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

And that's a real question to ask. And that's something that literally he has to answer. And I hope he does it in the book because that is TR said he was going to be a transitional candidate. He wanted to, you know, after Covid, after Donald Trump, it was. And the voters decided, they were like, okay, we don't want anything extreme. We want just to get this guy out and we want somebody who knows how to run government. To run government. That's essentially what happened in 2020. Right. And. And he was the vice president for the first black president. He's been senator. We're going to do that. Right. And he had said that and he has to answer to that question. And I think it's a good question to ask. I don't have an answer, actually. What I will say is in 2023, I think in the moment when he was thinking, and again, he has to speak to this, when he was thinking about what he was going to do, there was a couple things that Came up right. He was the incumbent. He was the only person that beat Donald Trump. We had a successful, relatively successful midterms because it wasn't a red wave. We had a relatively or objectively a good couple of years. And I'm assuming. Assuming that went into his thinking when he decided if he was going to run or not. But he has to answer to that. You're not, you all are not wrong. That was part of kind of the conversation in 2020 and 2019 on how do we, you know, how do we meet the moment of where we are as a country, hence, you know, the picking of Kamala Harris as the vice president and a very, very. The most diverse administration ever in modern politics. So that was all part of meeting the moment. But he has to speak to that. That is something I agree. He has to answer to all of you on that.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

And I think that's when you look at what's happening in New York City and everything that we talked about, and you talk about perception as reality, and you see what Maumdani is doing, you see the excitement, and you see people rallying behind him from all walks of life for a candidate like you haven't seen before in that position. And then you see the establishment, you see the Democrats who've been the veterans who've been there for a long time, not rallying behind him, not supporting him. What is your thought behind that? As somebody who was so closely related, you know, connected to these people, and as an independent now, what do you. How do you. Where do you think the party should go?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

So I find it very problematic, not just because they didn't just rally behind him, but he did it the right way. Right. He participated in a Democratic primary process. He did the job. He campaigned. He was an unknown. He was not an. He wasn't. He wasn't Eric Adams. He wasn't Cuomo. He was not somebody that people knew. And he did the work, and he did it differently, and he won the primary. So that was really my problem with. Is like, okay, wait, he actually did the right thing, participated in a primary. We tell people, we tell young people, hey, go out and vote. And he became the prime, you know, the Democratic primary nominee for the mayor. And now you're saying to him, no, now you're saying you don't want him. What message does that send to people who participated? That was the big problem for me. It's like, it's not like, it's not as if, like, oh, you know, he galvanized everybody and maybe, maybe he might Be the nominee. No, he actually became the nominee.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It happened, didn't it?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

It happened. And so for me, I think that hurts us. I think that hurts the party. I think you're sending a message to especially young people who don't want to. Who feel disillusioned and not sure if they want to participate and not feel seen. And now you're saying, oh, no, he. Yeah, he's the. He. He was elected, you know, ranked choice voting, which is not an easy thing. You have to really be really smart on how you campaign about around that and how you tell people to vote. And. Yeah, but we don't want him. So we're gonna, you know, get Eric Adams to drop out, go behind. I mean, it's just insane. And I think this is one of the things where the leadership needs to be called out. And this is what I'm talking about, right? It's like, you can't. You can't do that. And if he wins on Tuesday, like, Democratic leadership needs to make sure that he is a successful mayor. We can't, like, we. He cannot fail. We can't want him to fail. And so that is the problem that I. It's like, that's a. Mamdani just became a really good example and what the problem is with the party right now.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What percentage of politics would you say is just straight up lying?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Oh, my gosh, I want a percent. Well, there's a lot of performative, that's for sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Straight up lying. What percentage of politics is just straight line?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I think every candidate, every person is different. I mean, you look at the person in the White House that's straight up lying, like 24, 7. I don't think everyone is like him, but I don't. You know, I. I think it depends.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Of what you said up there was just straight lies.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

It was not lies.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

None of it was.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

None of it was lies. None of it was lies.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You have a. You have a.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Because.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, because you have a three year. I told no lies.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

No, I didn't. I have to tell you. No. And if. And if somebody asked me something, I couldn't answer. If somebody asked me something. No, if somebody. If you watch my briefing and somebody asked me something I could answer, I'd be like, I gotta get back to you. I just don't know. I would say.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

And you were criticized for that.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah, and I was criticized because, like, oh, she's not ready. It's like, no, I actually don't have the answer for you. Or I rather not say, because I don't know if that's right or wrong or I don't want to, you know, get myself in a situation. I don't, I don't watch her briefings, like, don't.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I'm sure it popped up on you.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I was just about to say, I've seen clips that have gone viral and I scratch my head and I'm like, what is going on? And here's the thing, look, and I've said this many times and I'll say it here. Freedom of the press is so important. It's part of our democracy. You gotta respect the press. And while, no, I can't think of any politician that likes the press, we do not like the press. Right. Because it, I mean, wait, why? Because, because, because it's tough, right? They are supposed to hold us to account and sometimes it's aggressive and sometimes we don't like how they cover us. Right. Sometimes nobody. Right, but, but you respect the job. But you respect the job.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Isn't that a peek behind the curtain into sort of a problem? Like, it would be one thing to respect the press and to not like the press means you don't like the accountability.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I'm saying. No, no, I'm not saying that at all. But there's gonna be. They're never going to cover you. Well, right? Because, you know, sometimes you read a story, you're like, wait, why is this being said? Or why that? So you kind of have like this feeling of like, oh, no, the press doesn't like me or oh no, the press this, depressed that. But then you don't, you don't hate them, you don't despise them. You may not like how they cover you. I probably should restate that. You know me and like how they cover you, but you don't disrespect them. And I, that's my whole thing. Because what is being televised in that room, the press briefing room, is not just to the country, but it's to the world.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

And if you are not showing some sort of like, okay, we're going to have a back and forth. You're not going to like me, I'm not going to like you, but we're going to respect each other or at least try to respect each other. And we're going to, we're going to go back and forth. You're showing the world, world leaders that, okay, democracy, this is democracy in action. This is the freedom of the press. And so that's what's important what happens in that briefing room because of the visual and the perception, like you were saying, of what you stand for and what you're trying to mean and what you're trying to push forward. And so that's what is hard to see in the clips that I've seen with the current press secretary.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

How many your mama texts did you send to someone?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I never said to your mom. I don't think I even said that to a friend. And who says that? I feel like that's something you say in third grade.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

When you have your mama wants to seem like Trump. It's like they all do.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

They're all playing Trump.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah, it's like online trolling. It's just like what he does. And so they follow. They follow suit.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

What role do you see for yourself moving forward?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

You know, I. That's a good question. I was hoping that with the book, I can start a conversation and found a. Find a voice that is helpful and what we're trying to do in this moment. One of the things that I want to do is I want to tell stories. So there are two women that I learned about while I was White House press secretary. I had never heard of them before. One of them is Alice Dunnigan, and the other, the other woman is Ethel Payne. They were the two black women to two black women who were the first black women to be part of the White House press corps. And this was like 75 years ago. So can you imagine them being part of the boys club and, you know, trying to ask Eisenhower a question and he's ignoring that? And so I want to tell stories like that. I want to lift up voices that we had never heard of before, we don't know, or maybe we heard a little bit about. And so these are stories that are personal to me. I recently got the rights to their books. And so I hopefully I can. Thank you. Hopefully I can figure out how to tell those stories. So stuff like that, like telling stories, hopefully having a voice that's helpful. Especially I'm very focused on young people right now. We need them to be involved in pop culture politics. And I know they're upset. I know they're upset with the Biden Harris administration. I get it. I'm not disillusioned about that myself. But I do feel as if they have a role and a place. And that's why Mom Donnie is, I think, is really exciting and really important. And I hope they see themselves in that and get involved.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Are you familiar with Chink from Jake from the Young Turks? You Know. That is. I was watching. Okay, you're gonna be mad that you don't know him. I was watching the.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I know Young Turks.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The Young Turks, Yeah. I know that Jake and Anna, they hosted, so I was watching Piers Morgan.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Because when you want to watch, like, the Real Housewives of Political issues, oh.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

That'S where you go.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Well, you've been on it. So you've been a Real Housewife.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I've been on the Real Housewives. I like the Real Housewives.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Which one were you on? Which franchise?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

The Pierce Morgan. He sang.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Before. I would love that. I would love to be with the two of you.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

The two. The two of you should do the Grand d. I would love.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

With the Grandam over in. I would love to. To be with them. So he. So he was on Piers Morgan, and it was the Turk. The Young Turk. He was. And you brought him together with Katie Miller. Katie Miller, who is Stephen Miller's wife.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Who had one of the most disastrous television performances I've ever seen before in my life. Go watch. It's her, Jake, Jillian Michaels, Omar. They're all on the Young Turds together. And she just made a complete fool of herself now.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

And she's a person of color, right?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No. Is she.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

She looks like she is, but I.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Don'T want to speak on it, man. That. She's a. But she's a.

[Interviewer/Host]

She's.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

She's Jewish, so.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Oh, okay.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Maybe.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Doesn't mean she can't be a person of color. Shout out to all of our people of color who are Jewish from all over the Diaspora. My Ethiopian Jews, my. But. But you brought them together because. And she was literally talking about getting him deported minutes before you brought them together. Brought them together because we're getting.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Who did. The Turks.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And Jink and Katie together, they were able to agree on something, and it was about the fact that they don't like the way you talk about your identity.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Jake thinks that talking about your identity as a black queer woman is playing into identity politics and something that you do to shield yourself from criticism.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

No, not at all.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

She kind of said the same thing. Thing in a different way.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I want you to maybe talk a little bit about why it's so important.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I love that you said that, because if anything, I get criticized for saying I'm a black queer woman. I don't get shielded from saying I'm a black queer woman. If anything, it. It actually puts a target. More of a target on me when I say it, and I bring it up because There are communities that out there who don't feel seen or who are scared or who are fearful. And I think I need to own it. And I've always been unapologetic about who I am. I will never, ever, ever run away from it. And first of all, black. I mean, you see me, and I'm a black woman. So I don't. You know what I mean? I don't have to. I don't have to say it. I mean, you see my. I walk into a room, there goes a black. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, I don't. I don't even understand that I can't hide the fact that I'm a black woman, so why not own it? And so I will never apologize for. For being in the body and the space and the communities that I. That I occupy. And it's almost as if, no, you're going to acknowledge me, because this is who I am, and I'm not going to hide it. And I'm going to put it in your face, because this is who I am. Again, I actually get criticized for being a black queer woman. I get criticized for it. So why not own it, right? Why not live in that space and be like, I don't care.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What do you say to the people that say that you. We're fighting this constant battle for our humanity. Everything that we do is di. I drive across the street. I was able to do it because of dei. I wake up in the morning, it was a DEI awakening. I go to sleep at night. I was able to sleep because of dei. These are di mics. I'm wearing di shoes, di hat. Everything is di. There's nothing. Like, I shoot the ball, the ball goes in the basket.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

DEI score.

[Donnie]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Everything we do is because of dei.

[Donnie]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And they say that your job and what you were able to do, how you got to the White House was because. Not because you had done anything else, but because you are black. How did you get to be the White House press secretary?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

And first of all, I have to go back to the other thing, too, because it pisses me off that people who have not walked in my shoes, who have no idea who really I am as a person, get to tell me how I get to identify myself from. So it's like, shut up. I was like, you can't tell me how I get to identify myself. You can't tell me how I get to call myself. Like, screw you. Like who? Like you. That's not okay. Like, that is not okay. You have no right. To tell anybody how they should identify themselves and how they see themselves in the world. Like, you have not walked through my battles. You have not walked through my life. You don't even know my personal story. So that's how I really. That just. That just boils me up. So I had to say that. Look, picking a White House press secretary is a personal, personal thing that the President of the United States does. I have known Joe Biden since 2009. I have known him for a long time. He has watched me grow up. He has watched me become the person that I am today. And he actually asked me to be part of his press team back in 2019 when he was deciding to run. And I decided that I didn't want to be part of a presidential campaign because I had a little kid, and I was trying to just focus on my life. And so people don't. It's like a personal decision. He didn't. I didn't just pop up one day, and he was like, oh, look at this person. Let me make her the White House press secretary. No, I've known him for a long time, and he would say to me, I like the way you speak for me. I like the way you present yourself for me.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's a cold lie. I'm sorry, man. I just can't imagine. I like the way you speak for me.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

For me.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, that's your job.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I just, like. I just. I've never.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Rachel, don't start saying it. I was gonna say. Don't think you could start. Well, now he's gonna start saying it.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

But that's.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

That's the job.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Of course that's what I was doing.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

He's just gonna start saying it now.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

But that's okay. So it's not like. Not like I showed up in, you know, January 2021, and he was like, oh, okay, this is what we're gonna do. No, I've known him for a long time. Again, it's a personal decision. Right. Barack Obama. The first person he picked as his press secretary was Robert Gibbs. Why did he pick Robert Gibbs? He'd known Robert Gibbs for a long time. They were close. They were friends. I mean, that's how it normally goes. And so I didn't, like, come out of nowhere, and Joe Biden was like, oh, I'm gonna pick her. No, I've been working with him and have known him since 2009.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Oh, very fair. Don't start saying that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I like the way you said that.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I don't speak for you.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Oh, I see. What's happening.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah, that's. He. He's holding on to it. It's probably gonna be in our intro now.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah. Who speaks for me?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I'm not sure when you decided to write this book what you anticipated people would say, but I. There's been praise and there's been criticism, of course, as comes with everything.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah. Anything, Anything. There's sometimes, anytime there is something different.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

There's going to be praise and criticism.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Correct.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Understood.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

What would you say to people who say, you know, not now. Where we are right now in our, in our life or this country, we don't need this book right now. A book that reflects on. And I know in the book you obviously you're talking about moving forward, but for people who are like, we don't need to hear about what happened in the last administration, we need to figure out what's going on right now. For the people who think that it might be self serving or opportunistic to write a book, what would you say to those people?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I would say that I'm very worried about this moment and what I talk about. Yes. I talk about the past. And the reason why I talk about the past is because there's a story. The. My decision to become an independent is connected to the past, obviously. So I have to move, I have to start there in order to move it forward or else it doesn't make sense for people and people can agree with me or not, that's not the point. But I believe for me this book was important because if not now, then when I believe the party needs to do more. They need to act like an opposition party because these are not normal times and you can't act as if it's business as usual. I believe that the system is broken and so we have to fix it and figure out. I believe in these moments when we're under attack and it feels really low is a moment to reimagine the future and reimagine what this country could look like. But we need the right leaders to do that. We need leaders who are going to have the heart and the moral compass and be brave about doing that. And sometimes you have to bring people along to get to a place where everybody feels like they're safe and protected and you're fighting for them. And that's, that's what I believe and I hope that that's what people get from the book and I hope they give it a chance. And I understand people are going to hate it, people are going to love it. People are going to hate that I'm the messenger. That's fine. That's fine. But a lot of it, too. And I'm actually saying, at least in the moment that we're in right now, I'm saying the quiet things out loud. A lot of the things I talk about are what people say around their kitchen table or what people are saying when they're hanging out with their friends. Like, what's going on? And why are we not fighting more? Why is the party not fighting more? And so I'm also saying the quiet things out loud.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What Rachel's talking about is the overall response to the book and the book tour, which. These heads. Some of these headlines are brutal.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah, I've seen them.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Disastrous book tour. New York Times said the book tour that most authors wouldn't dream about. Msnbc. Disastrous book tour. And then, of course, there was the New Yorker piece that just came out that just went everywhere with people feeling like it was just a total L for you. What do you think the response. What's your response to.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I think.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Look, I think that a lot of it is coming from, like, a corner of the world, right. That's kind of repeating themselves. Repeating themselves. And fine, that's what they're gonna do. I can't really change that. There's nothing that I'm. I can do about that. I don't think it was disastrous. I don't think.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You think that the New Yorker interview went well?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Oh, I don't think it went well. He was completely combative, and we were going back and forth, and it was not. I'm not. That's not what I'm saying. We're talking about one interview, and I know there's some. That's one interview, and I know that there's some reporting. Right. But I've done other interviews that gone really well. I've had other conversations that's gone really well. If you pick one or two, whatever you think about them. But I've had multiple interviews that people have gotten something out of it. And I've done events where people have gotten something out of it. And it goes back to what Rachel and I were saying. Like, people are going to. People are going to. When you say something that has never been heard before or that's new, people are gonna hate it, and some people are gonna love it. You're not. It's. This is different. What I'm saying is out of the box. It's. It. Some people may say it's insane. Some people may say, oh, good for you. But, you know I have come under criticism all the time. It is not unusual. And some people may not like it's me saying it. Right. A lot of it is because it's me saying it, but that's not my problem.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Do you think that there's an expectation from people.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That the press secretary should be able to. Former press secretary.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Should be able to go back and forth with the guy from the New Yorker. And even if he is compat. Combative, is there an expectation of a media expertise that you should have? Do you think people hold you to a standard? They say, she shouldn't have a bad interview. She shouldn't have a bad interaction, she shouldn't have a bad spot, because she literally was the person that was in front of the world.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Also, we're all normal. And that's one. Like. You know what I mean? Like, I've had multiple good interviews. Right. And I. What I will say about that interview is it was combative.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

How was. How was he combative?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I mean, he was cut. He was, like, cutting me off, and he wouldn't let me speak. And he. He should probably release the audio of the. Of the interview.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You think if he released the audio of the interview, it would play different.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

For people than reading it? Maybe.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yes.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

So, I mean, there were times where I was like, let me talk. Let me talk. Right. It was. It was a pushback, and he literally had his own thinking. Right. His own perspective. Like, he went into it. Not a. It wasn't a. It wasn't an interview where. Okay, I'm going to give you. You know, I don't agree with you, or people don't agree with you, or I want to hear what you have to say. It was combative. It was a combative. I mean, you read it, and it reads as a combative interview. It does.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Would you like to release the audio? Because I feel like.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I mean. No, it doesn't matter. I'm not even gonna go down.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Can I be honest? I would rather. What I don't want to see is you be on a podium.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I'd rather see you be more loose, maybe a little combative. You know, standing up for the things that you believe in, what you're writing in. I would rather see that than see you perfectly crafted together. I think that that's part of the thing that people have is they question, are you going to be authentic when you're writing this book or are you the press secretary still? Are you telling your honest truths about your relationships with Joe Biden and other people or Are you. You know.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah. I mean, but I say things in the book that are out of the norm. Right. When you're criticizing the Democratic Party, that's not stepping in line. That's being your giving your authentic view. Right. I mean, like, that's not the thing to do. Right. I mean, I'm doing something that people are pissed off about. That's a part of it. And I tell my story of what it was like being White House press secretary. And so those are not. I'm not. You know, the book had. The book has a lot of stuff that is like, oh, wow, she's telling this. Oh, wow, she's sharing that. And I think that's real. That's real.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

What's the party saying to that? Like, what has been the response? I mean, look at Democratic leadership.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

It's. I think it's coming through some of these stories, right? I mean, some of these stories are the Democratic leaders feeling and saying how they. What they think.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Right.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

The not now, or you aren't great at your job anyway. Right. Or, I mean, those are. That's coming from the party leadership. That's coming from some of the colleagues that I worked with. They're. They're, you know, they're. They're voiceless, but that's where that's coming from. Meaning, like, when I say voiceless, they don't sign their name to, To. To their. To their comments, but I don't care. Like, nobody's living in my head rent free. Like, no one is living in my head rent free. And I'm going to continue to speak. And of course, there were going to be bad stories. Of course. Yeah, of course.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's the press. We don't like them. Question. There is an annoyance that I have with the books that are coming out.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And it has nothing to do with people's personal stories. I actually enjoy reading a lot about the goings on inside of the White House or the stuff that happened and everything. The timing of these books dropping. You're dropping.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Kamala's dropping. And then Joe Biden is dropping when there is, as you know, historic dysfunction, SNAP benefits coming to an end. People being kidnapped off of our streets, just random killings in the ocean, boats full of people. And then, trust us, they're drug dealers, all kinds of things. Is there a possibility and do you understand the criticism or the critique that while all of that is going on, it seems like some people from the Biden administration are talking about them themselves?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah. So I think political books are always going to be criticized. It doesn't matter when it falls, when it drops, which administration or how it. They're always going to be politicized. That's the way political books go. I do agree with you that there's so much happening right now in the moment that's scary and that we should be focusing on and talking about. I do totally agree with you on that. And we have to figure out how do we elevate that more and how we talk about that more. And, you know, I. You know, we try to do that in interviews. We try these. I do try to do that in interviews, but it's hard because you've written a book about this, and so people want to focus on that. On. On what you laid out in. In the book that was controversial or. Or. Or different. But. But I. But all political books are going to be criticized and ridiculed and looked over and, you know, poked at. I mean, that's just. It doesn't matter if it. Four years ago, four years from now, two, whatever it is. They. They're just different. They just hit differently. There are a lot of them. You are correct. I mean, this past two weeks, it's insane, the amount of books that are. That are out there.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Last question for me.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I always think about how 20, 30 years from now are they gonna look at this time? How are they gonna write? What are they gonna write about it? I don't know. I don't even know.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

It's hard.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Right? We're unprecedented times. Yeah.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

There will be a movie. Who's playing you?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Oh, my gosh. I have not thought about that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

When is the movie coming out? We're doing it right now.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I may not even do it.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

We're doing the movies in the next three years, all with. Especially with the books coming out. There's a movie.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Three years.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Three years from now. So now, three years from now, it's Jamie Lawson.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Who's. Who's Jamie Lawson?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Pearline from Sinners.

[Jomi Adeneron]

Oh.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Oh, great choice.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Don't do this with me. That's why I do.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

That's a good choice.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

That's a very good choice. Yeah. I love that movie. It was so good.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Three years from now.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

See, you're already casting in your head.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Who is Joe Biden three years from now? Who is Joe Biden?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

And then. And then Kamala.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

See, here's the thing about Joe and Kamala. You really could get any of, like, the older guys to play Joe. You could go get any of the older guys. Kamala is more interesting.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Who are you thinking? Kamala she has a diverse background too. So you want to be respectful, so you can't.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So the Kamala one is a little bit. I'd have to go into. I'd have to think about that a little bit more. Kamala is a little bit more Joe. I mean, I could have. Jeff Bridges could play.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah. And you could just put makeup. Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I have to think about. Because there's. There's not anyone that.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

That sticks.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Jumps to my head. Like the only.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

The person that people. She. Jennifer Beals. Do you remember Jennifer Beals?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yeah, I've seen Flashdance. Yes. I've seen. Like that. But then. Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Did you know that?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Yes, I did. I'm not great with movies because I've.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Seen her dressed like her, and I was like, oh, wow, that's.

[Jomi Adeneron]

That's.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

That's kind of crazy.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Maybe that's a little. Maybe we need to shade up just one shade. You know, maybe we send Jennifer bills to Singapore for a whole summer.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

But then we have to find, like, a young Kamala, too, because I'm assuming that it'll be her life story.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. Last question for me is some useful information for our audience.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Oh, okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

All right. You're standing in front of the press corps.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Oh, okay.

[Interviewer/Host]

The world.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The world, Right.

[Jomi Adeneron]

Really?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You gotta deal with, you know, Fox News and you gotta deal with. I wanna ask you actually, one other question, actually, before I get to the question about the advice. What's your opinion on the new media section? I don't know if you know this. So Karen Levin in her press secretary room, they have a new media section where it's like Tim Pool or Benny Johnson or somebody like that. And it's literally a choreographed question to where they stand up and they go. They literally stand up and they go, President Trump is by far the greatest leader that we've ever seen before in our lifetime. And we are seeing historic, historic, historic achievement from the Trump administration. Why do the Democrats suck so much and won't give our king credit? And then she just.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Did they say that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Thank you. They go, thank you very much for that question. Let's talk about how bad the left is. What do you think about that? Type of. There seems to be. I don't know. They're diluting the power of that room.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Yes. Well, that sounds like state tv. That's literally like. That sounds like, you know, might as well. North Korea, Russia, you know, that's what that sounds. Sounds like. And that's unfortunate if that's what's going on, because I think there is something to be said, the medium is changing. We were just talking about that moments ago and trying to include, you know, different voices in the journalistic world. Right. Because there are now all these independent journalists. You know, it's just changing. There's social media. And so I think there's something to trying to figure out, okay, how do you bring those voices in the briefing room? We tried to do that with regional reporters. We did that once a week. And they came in, they beamed in virtually, but they weren't dear leader reporters. They were like real reporters that would ask specific question, questions that mattered to their region or state. I think when you do something like that, what you just laid out, that's state tv. That's not democracy. That's not, that's. That's lifting up what you want to be lifted up for on behalf of the president to make them, to make him feel good. Right. It's not, it does nothing to what the American people need to know and how reporters need to report back to the American people. So that, to me, that's state tv. That's, that's like dictatorship.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Now, to the question, there's somebody somewhere right now that either has problems speaking in front of crowds or being in that place behind that podium with that type of power undergirding, you would be paralyzed into them. What are your tips for people on how to comport themselves in front of large audiences, how to talk when every single syllable that you say will be dissected? What's your process?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

What was your process? I think for them it's like practice, practice, practice. Right, practice. Get people to ask you questions, kind of visualize, you know, what the room is going to look like, what the experience might be. Maybe do small doses of talking to reporters or talking in front of people so that you get comfortable. But you got to practice. You got to, like, figure out, okay, how am I going to stand, how I'm going to use my hands, how I'm going to feel about being in front of an audience and, and just, and just really go deep into how, how you can make yourself better. And you have to learn. Okay, all right. How, you know, how do I speak? What. How do I need to better my speak? How do I need to better communicate? And it's a real evaluation of the self and a real evaluation of presentation and just really just studying yourself, learning yourself. Capture yourself on video and see what that looks like. But there's a lot of work to it. Like, nobody. Well, in, in the past, I don't know if I can speak for this current, current press secretary. But nobody goes to the podium without being prepared. You got to be prepared. And sometime it's like you're standing in front of people that you trust who are. Who are just asking you the hardest questions, and you're practicing and going back and forth with them. So it is. It takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of work. And if you put in the work, it'll. It'll be fine.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The book is independent. I promise you guys. If you read the book. If you read the book, you'll have a good time. Yeah, you'll have like, you, like, you have a good. And you'll be inside it a little bit. Yeah, it's good, good. Good to incite people a little bit. Good to trigger people a little bit to keep them on their toes.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I mean, what's next right from here?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Tv?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Tv?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

TV show?

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I don't know. You tell me. Maybe. I don't know.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Newsmax News.

[Nordstrom Ad Speaker]

What?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Thank you for joining us all the time, Larry.

[Jomi Adeneron]

You really had a good time.

[Donnie]

Yeah.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Thank you. Thank you both. Thank you, Van. Thank you, Rachel.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So good. So good.

[Interviewer/Host]

So good.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Score. Holiday gifts.

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[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

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[Van Lathan Jr.]

Ordstrom, Rachel, what are your thoughts on that?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I thought it was a great interview. I will say I walked into the interview feeling one way and I came out of it with a better understanding. You know, I still feel like, you know, and I feel like we said this in the interview with her, right? The what The. Not now with the books. This is where we are as a society. This is what we want. But I will say I have a better understanding from. After reading the book, from articles that I read, I wasn't quite sure and I Respect the fact with her coming in here and answering all the questions that we have, you know, unlimited time. Yeah, yeah. Nothing off limits.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I still, I don't know what everyone saw with President Biden when the cameras went. I don't. That's still tough for me to wrap my mind around.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

You know what it is? It's because I think she acknowledges that what we saw we could never move past. What I think she conflates is that she knew him for like she said, she's known him since 2009. She's known him for so many years. She's been close to him. She's seen him in so many situations that we haven't. That she's doing kind of like a. Well, that compared to all the other times doesn't mean that that's the way that he is. I'm like comparing it to everything else and he's really more this person than I've seen him be. What you saw on the stage, and that's a problem. That's what I think is what happens.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

She's too close, by the way. I would just like to point out that that DEI joke that I made was made on Friday of last week. And you might have heard President Obama say the joke, but that I did not have. I did not. I'm not biting off Obama now.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

He did say it first, guys. He did say it first. We'll give it to you.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He left it in, although I wanted to take it. It's very Obama. You know, he's better than me. He's better.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

That's a good joke.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Graham Platner running for Senate for Maine.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay, you into him?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm not into him.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Okay.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Why?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Graham Platner has gone a bunch of different places. Went to pod, Save My Beloved Breaking Points. I saw him on there. But I have yet to see Graham Platner address his anti blackness with black people. And the more interviews I see him do, the more sit downs I see him do, the more it annoys me that he's not doing this.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Can I ask a question? I don't know of him saying anything anti black other than the tip thing, so.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

No, no, no, no. You said anti blackness.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Do you think a Nazi tattoo is anti black?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Not directly. I think it's anti Semitic. I think it's okay, sure. But I just don't look. When I think of an. When I think of that particularly, I think of more anti Semitism than I think of anti black. You're right, obviously. Aryan Nation. Get it?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The Nazis.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I get it. I get it. But I think the audience would say, what else? I'm truly wondering, has he said anything specifically? We know that that is one thing that he says he absolutely should be doing. Black media, I agree with you, but you made a statement. I'm asking a question because I am not aware. What else has he done that's anti black? Before we throw that out there, I.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Would say the tipping thing is one thing, having a Nazi tattoo is another thing. But let's put those things in a bucket, right? On glance, I see Graham Platner. I like Graham Platner. The politics, something that I align with. The entire image is something that I align with. But I will say something. The centrist Democrats, the ones that we so often criticize, they do have to exist connected to black people in a very specific way because there is an understanding of the voting block that black Americans, particularly black women, make up for them. So there's a direct way that they have to at least in some way show up for black people. Now, I'm not saying in any way, guys, before you get that the Democrats have been like some type of fighter. I'm not saying that at all. Okay? What I'm telling you is that if there is a Democrat who has said obviously anti black things, then they are going to have to deal with the cbc. They're going to have to deal with the black intelligentsia that exists inside of that wing of the Democratic Party in a very direct way. Sometimes on the left, because there is a shredding of identity politics. I mean, the left left, not the centrist left. There's a shredding of identity politics that exists there that seeks to establish a cohort of working people and a diverse coalition. They want to get away from identity politics and they want to focus on other things and things that they believe help all people. There. Sometimes in that is a betrayal to me of the actuality of black existence in America. I don't know that it's a purposeful betrayal, but maybe it is. Sometimes there is talk and there is action. To me, that is that seeks to overlook some of the ways that black people need to feel safe. Some of the ways that black people need to deal in order to be at the political table with you. Some things that we need, right? And I see this happening with Graham Platner. I see it happening, see it happening with him. I see him getting a soft bed to land on for some things that are concerning.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I agree with that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And I'm not saying that people need to kick his fucking nuts In. But what I'm saying is, is if we are going to be in coalition with him, then what is the point of him not talking to black people?

[Jomi Adeneron]

He should.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

He should be.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I see him explaining what he meant with the tipping thing or the tattoo to white people. I see him explaining that to him, to them. But the fact that there doesn't seem to be. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe they're getting around to it, but the fact that there doesn't even seem to be the need to speak to black people about that. The fact that there's not the will to do it, it's starting to get on my fucking nerves. Like, it's starting to bother me. Like, the more interviews I see him doing, where I see him talking to people, I see the relevant questions being asked. I see the breaking points was, you know, I love the show. Breaking Points was particularly good in that they went into his career as a military contractor. It's like everybody's trying to make sure he's not the next Fetterman and all of that stuff. Everybody's trying to make sure that they don't put him in a position where he becomes a senator from the state of Maine. And then all of a sudden, a year and a half, we're like, what the fuck happened? All of that's cool. All of that's cool. But there are things that we have to do, even within coalitions, to make sure that we can trust one another. And part of that comes when there is crisis and him having a situation, a crisis, a scandal, whatever you want to call it, where he's made anti black, anti Jewish, anti American statements to me and done things like that with the tattoo, all the explanations being what they are, the gesture, the move of actually being in conversation with somebody black to have that talk is meaningful. And the fact that it's not happening is also meaningful, at least from what I've seen.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I agree with. I agree with you.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And so it's like, to me, it almost means more that you don't do it.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

So that also feeds into your anti blackness. That's the question I have.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's like, okay, cool, the tipping situation. You had that conversation with the Pon Save America bros about it. Like, don't you need to go have that conversation at the Breakfast Club? Don't you need to go have that conversation with. Like, don't you need to go have that conversation somewhere where black people watch and trust the platform?

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Do you feel like. And this I'm playing into you saying anti black. Do you feel like the reason that you also feel like he's anti black is because maybe he is not playing into having those conversations with black people because black people aren't as represented in the state of Maine.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I mean maybe because we talked about the madness, but at the same time he's.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Which I'm not saying. That's right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He's going to be a senator.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Correct.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And he's trying to become a senator. So he has his constituents in Maine to consider. But also there are going to be.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Things that he's going to be voting on. Yeah. Yep, yep, yep, yep.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And pushing forward that are going to affect black people all over the country and particularly black people that consider themselves to be a little bit left of center. I am the center of the left. Left. So I am left of progressive. The Democrats. But I am not because I know some people that are. I know some people that hit me up and their ideas. They on the capital L left their ideas. Yeah. I'm like, yo man, whoa. You know what I'm saying? I know the people, right. And I feel like I'm being pulled towards them every single day, being radicalized.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

What do you think I am?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You're a good old fashioned Texas Democrat, man. You're a good old fashioned Texas Democrat. But we, we have very similar. As we're joking. But I'm saying in, in, in this situation here. Stop the bullshit and get it done.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I, I'll agree. Just, just curious about, you know.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, stop the bullshit and get it done. Look, I get everybody is not that important. All that. Just like at this point I'm, it's starting to get annoying. So I see, as I see him popping up, I'm like, go talk to somebody. We're gonna go. But I wanna play something here. See, I have to do it. I don't have to be where I'm at till 12:30. I got plenty of time. I wanna play something here and let me tell you why I'm playing this. I'm about to play and you guys just letting you know the podcast right now is effectively over. What you're going to hear now is the account of a man who is talking on a stage about something that he went through. Moth Stories is a group or organization where people get up there and they tell personal stories.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

They posted something on their Instagram and it was the account of a comedian named Anthony Griffith. And I had never heard of him.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Uh huh. I haven't either.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And I saw him talking about something. I don't know why I clicked on the video But I saw him talking about something very personal that happened to him or something that he went through a time in his life. It's very personal. Happened to him when he first came out to LA from Chicago to be a comedian and he got his big break and that big break was being on the Tonight show and there was something else going on in his life at the time. He was dealing with a cancer diagnosis that his daughter had. Two year old daughter. This seven or so minutes, it's not concise, but this seven or so minutes encompasses everything that I think, everything that's wrapped up into my view of wanting people to be happy and healthy and wanting to help people. In this is a talk about healthcare and what it costs Americans. In this is a talk about manhood masculinity and what it means to feel the need to show up at times when you're completely broken. Blackness is talked about here and how you approach therapy. But more than any of that, just the brutality of humanity and what I care about and what I think that we should all care about in terms of the way that we show up for each other. I have and I've heard speeches from Obama, speeches from Martin Luther King Jr. I don't know that I've ever been as moved as what I was when I watch this. Donnie, play it for Rachel right now.

[Anthony Griffith]

Charles Dickens classic tale Tale of Two Cities starts off with the phrase it was the best of times and it was the worst of times. 1990, I moved from Chicago with my family to LA to seek my fame and fortune. And in a couple of weeks of being there, I got two important phones calls. One was from the talent coordinator for the Tonight show offering me to have a spot as a comedian on tonight's show. And the second call was that my daughter's doctor had called up to say that her cancer had resurfaced. A year prior she was diagnosed with cancer and we fought it and it went into remission and I was back. And for that next year my life was pretty surreal because two different personalities. During the day, in order to keep my daughter at home with me, I would have to learn CPR and how to work a heart monitor and administer medicine, all these technical terms and take her back and forth, excuse me, to get her platelets and blood and check up on her. And at night I would go from club to club with the talent coordinator and I would work on my set and try to perfect it. And I would meet veterans like George Wallace and Seinfeld and Roseanne and I thought that everything Was great because we had beat the cancer before, we could beat it again. And this is the first time. Time that I was going to be in front of millions of people on the Tonight Show. And the first time on the Tonight Show, I was extremely nervous. All I could think about while I was backstage being introduced was, don't mess up. Just don't mess up. Whatever you do, don't mess up. And the curtains open and there's 600 people and the cameras and Johnny's over there and the band is over there. And I don't know what I said for the next six minutes, but I got six applause breaks. And the great part of that night was that I was going to my car and I met Johnny, who was going to his car. And it was just a private moment between us in the parking lot of him saying, you were very funny. You're extremely funny. Start working on your second Tonight show because I want you back by the time I get. At the official call. For my second Tonight show, my daughter.

[Interviewer/Host]

My daughter was admitted to the hospital. If you don't know about cancer, when it comes back, it comes back hard. It's like beating up a gang banger for the time.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

First.

[Anthony Griffith]

First time. And then it's coming back. And he's coming back meaner and stronger, and he's coming with his friends. So in order to compensate for that, you have to raise the chemo and you have to raise the medicine and you have to raise the radiation, which.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is difficult for an adult. An adult.

[Anthony Griffith]

But she was only 2, so she's.

[Interviewer/Host]

Bald, which she doesn't mind because every kid in the ward is bald.

[Donnie]

And she.

[Interviewer/Host]

She thinks is a part of life. And she can't keep her food down. And there's. You're not prepared for this. There's no books. There's no home ed class to teach you how to deal with this. And you can't go to a therapist because in the black world, a therapist is taboo, as reserved for rich white people. So you're trying to figure it out. What did I do? Maybe it's something I did. Maybe it's something my wife did. Maybe my doctor diagnosed it erroneously. Something. But at night, I still have to be a comic. I have to work on a Tonight show because that's what I'm gonna do. I'm a clown. I'm a clown whose medical bills are raising who's one step from being evicted, who's one step for getting his car repoed. And I have to come out and make you laugh because no One wants to hear the clown in pain because that's not funny. And my humor is becoming dark and it's biting and it's becoming hateful. And the talent coordinator has seen that there's a problem because the NBC is all about nice and just everything is going to be okay. And we're starting to buck horns because he wants everything light. And I want to be honest and tell life. And I'm hurting, and I want everybody else to hurt because somebody is to blame for this. So I buck up and I suppress my anger and I form and develop a nice, cute routine for the second Tonight Show. And I get applause breaks and I get asked to come back for a third time. And I'm perfecting my third set, and the doctor asked me to come in, and I know something's wrong because even the doctor is crying, and doctors don't cry. And he said that we've done all we can. There's nothing else for us to do. And I said, how much time does she have? And he said, at the most. At the most, six weeks. And I should plan for that. And I'm thinking, how do I plan for that? I haven't planned to buy her her first bicycle. I haven't planned to walk her to school. I haven't planned to take pictures of.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Her on her prom.

[Interviewer/Host]

I haven't planned to walk her down the aisle to get married. How am I going to plan to buy her a dress to be buried in? And I'm trying to keep it together because I'm the man and I'm the man of the house. And I don't want to cry, but it's coming. And I'm trying to tell my way, tell myself. Tony, I'm trying to beg the world. Just give me chance Just give me chances. Just let me take a breath. Just stop just for a minute. I want to call my parents and tell them, what do I do? I don't know what to. I'm a grown man and I don't know what to do. And a man, a voice in me comes up like Denzel from Training Day. Man up, nigga. You think you're the only one losing kids today? 25 kids walked in here with cancer, only five walking out. This ain't no sitcom. It don't wrap up all nice and tight in 30 minutes. This is life. Welcome to the real world. And he was right. So I bucked up because that's what I'm supposed to do. And on my third Tonight show, by that time, my daughter had died. And I had six applause breaks that night. No one knew I was mourning. No one knew that I could care less about the Tonight show or Johnny Carson. In 1990, I had three appearances with the legendary Johnny Carson and a total of 14 applause breaks. And I would have given it all if I could just have one more day sharing a bag of French fries with my daughter. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. Thank you.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

What was that for? What was the stories.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

Why was he telling that story?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He was telling the story. It was his testimony.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

No, I'm saying what was the.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I mean, I'm not sure this. This took place and obviously I'm not sure when exactly he told that story, but I saw it on the moth stories account. It's okay to cry, everybody. It's very, you know. But when we are trying to ask each other to just consider what people are going through, that is what we're asking for. If you are casted as a bleeding heart or as somebody who. Whatever that not as grand or as. But that's humanity and just try if you can, to consider the other person.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Beautifully said.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Take your theme caps off and do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathan Jr.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I'm Rachel Lynn Lindsay. Bye, guys.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You fucked up your makeup.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I don't. Do I have makeup on?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, you're not even wearing it. Oh, shit.

[Rachel Lynn Lindsay]

I don't have like makeup on.