A Real Conversation With Gov. Josh Shapiro

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: A Real Conversation With Gov. Josh Shapiro
Date: March 14, 2026
Guest: Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro

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Overview

In this engaging episode, Van Lathan, Rachel Lindsay, and guest co-host Charlamagne Tha God sit down with Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro for what he promises will be a “real conversation.” The episode traverses Shapiro’s personal motivations, the themes of his new book, the realities of American politics, policing, social trust, and a candid discussion about identity, antisemitism, and the Israel-Palestine conflict. The show balances serious policy talk with playful moments, sports banter, and honest debate—offering both political depth and cultural flavor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Personal Roots, Motivation & The Book

• Governor Shapiro discusses his inspiration for his memoir, “Where We Keep the Light,” emphasizing his desire to showcase the goodness he witnesses in everyday people, contrasted with the negativity in politics.
  • “I saw a great disconnect between the people I was meeting … and the politicians who, quite frankly, weren't reflecting the goodness of the people.” (04:06)
  • Shapiro stresses that the book aims to connect more deeply with constituents and was not written merely for political ambition.
• On openness about faith and family:
  • Shapiro is candid about how his Judaism and family experiences shape his leadership, acknowledging that this openness can be politically risky but is essential to authenticity.
• On experiencing darkness:
  • Shares a harrowing account of a violent attack targeting his family, which became the book’s opening chapter, illustrating a commitment to hope and light even amid adversity. (06:47)

Where’s the “Light” in America?

• Rachel Lindsay probes, asking, “Where do you see the light right now?” (07:07)
• Shapiro points to the people, not politicians, as America’s beacon of hope:
  • “From the people, not the politicians.” (07:07)
  • He makes a stark distinction between the community’s everyday acts of unity and the divisiveness of national politics.
• Key insight: Shapiro’s experience in purple Pennsylvania is touted as a template for bipartisan cooperation and productive governance.

Voting, the Trump Era, and American “Goodness”

• Charlamagne Tha God pushes back on American exceptionalism, citing voter complicity in Trump-era policies:
  • “But we some version of the we voted for mass deportations, voted for ICE on the streets…” (10:39)
  • Shapiro responds by reframing Trump’s win as voter frustration with establishment politics, not an endorsement of cruelty or chaos:
  • “They didn’t vote for what Donald Trump is delivering … I don’t think people voted for the kind of chaos and cruelty that we’re seeing all across the country right now.” (13:01)
• Discussion of “political evil”:
  • Shapiro doesn’t equivocate on his view of Trump: “I think Donald Trump represents a unique kind of evil and chaos and cruelty. I do.” (13:37)

Bipartisanship in Practice

• Rachel highlights Shapiro’s reputation for working across the aisle and asks how such cooperation can scale nationally.
• Shapiro’s formula:
  • Focus on shared goals rather than fixating on points of disagreement.
  • “In my state … I’m not going to obsess about the things we disagree on ... but I’m not going to let that stop progress on the four or five things we do agree on.” (15:49)
  • Key challenge: At the national level, media and fundraising structures incentivize polarization, not compromise.

Crime, Community, and Policing

• Charlamagne notes Pennsylvania’s crime drop, particularly in Philadelphia—questioning how Shapiro’s administration achieved these results amid national narratives of urban decline.
• Shapiro credits:
  • Investment in law enforcement (adding 2,000 police officers).
  • $500 million in violence prevention programs, especially those aimed at youth.
  • Building trust between police and communities.
  • “The most important tool for law enforcement … is trust.” (18:56)
• Audience concern:
  • Charlamagne and Rachel probe issues of over-policing, training, and militarization.
  • Shapiro reiterates his community listening, emphasizes the importance of training, and acknowledges generational divides in attitudes toward policing.
  • “We invest in trying to get police officers out of their cars, walking the beat so they get to know their neighbors.” (25:08)
  • Admits more work is needed, especially on building trust.

The Frustration of National Messaging & Social Media

• Rachel raises the issue of why positive results in Pennsylvania don’t translate into national Democratic momentum—blaming digital media’s fragmentary and divisive influence.
  • “People only reading a quick headline … and then they feel disconnected or they just get it wrong.” (26:10)
• Shapiro’s response as a “digital dad”:
  • Teaches his kids to source-check and think critically.
  • Advocates longer, thoughtful conversations, such as this podcast, as an antidote to viral out-of-context soundbites.
  • “Maybe now some folks outside Pennsylvania are curious what my thoughts are... I sit down with folks like you and others and have long and thoughtful conversations like this.” (27:19)

Sports Interlude & Tone Reset

• The group lightens the mood, debating who belongs in the basketball “GOAT” conversation.
  • “It's Jordan.” — Charlamagne (32:26)
  • “My kids keep trying to tell me, LeBron.” — Josh Shapiro (32:29)
  • Humorous shoutouts to Kobe, Hakeem, Wilt, and the sentimental case for Philly’s own.
• This sports banter reinforces the episode’s blend of seriousness and camaraderie.

Criminal Justice, Meek Mill, and Reform

• Charlamagne asks about Shapiro’s relationship with Meek Mill and the broader story about criminal justice.
• Shapiro recounts his initial skepticism after Meek was jailed for a minor probation violation, but after examining the case, he realized the injustice.
  • “The more I looked at it … the more I realized Meek got a real raw deal.” (36:57)
  • Shapiro calls for reform, not just for Meek but the thousands entrapped by flawed probation systems.
  • "I was proud to sign into law in Pennsylvania some of the most progressive, far reaching probation reforms ..." (38:55)
  • “I think I’m a more compassionate and understanding person because of what he’s [Meek] taught me.” (40:42)

Politics, Faith, and Identity

• Charlamagne confronts the reality of antisemitism in American politics, asking if Shapiro believes a Jewish person can be president.
  • “Too bad a Jew can't be president … this guy is Jewish, and he's feeling a lot of weight right now.” (41:59)
• Shapiro is optimistic and empirical:
  • Tells a story about running a campaign ad highlighting his family’s Sabbath traditions, which, rather than alienating, helped him connect across religious lines.
  • “I got more votes than anybody in the history of Pennsylvania running for governor… They just want to know you’re on their side … and you're going to fight for them.” (43:07)
  • Concedes, however, that identity politics and its weaponization persist but the American public is “better than it.” (46:22)

Antisemitism, Gaza, and Political Division

• The conversation pivots to the rise in antisemitism (incidents in Michigan and other places) and how national issues like the Gaza war are cleaving the Democratic party.
  • “There should be no room for antisemitism, hatred, bigotry, racism, homophobia, any of that in our society.” (47:51)
• Shapiro’s approach: separate antisemitism from nuanced debate about Israeli policy:
  • “We have to create space for that discussion. … When someone has a different opinion than you on foreign policy, it doesn't make him an anti-Semite.” (50:20)
• On Israel/Palestine debates, Charlamagne and Shapiro engage respectfully despite disagreeing on key terms (e.g., “apartheid”), both emphasizing the importance of honest, dignified discussion.
  • “I think that you are learning and struggling and grappling with issues that are really, really tough. And you formed an opinion, one that I disagree with … I don’t think that you’ve got hate in your heart.” — Josh Shapiro (55:57)

Advocacy for Nuanced, Respectful Dialogue

• Both sides stress the need for open—but civil—debate, especially as America’s support for Israel becomes more fraught among progressives.
  • “We’re not going to stand for any antisemitism … but we are going to advocate for the dignity and the humanity of the Palestinian people. And I don't think that that has to be a choice.” — Charlamagne (64:02)
  • “I think what is dangerous here … is for those who think Israel doesn't have a right to exist in that conversation… what I want to see is peace.” — Josh Shapiro (64:49)

Closing: Basketball, Humor, and Humanity

• The episode closes by returning to basketball, with Shapiro humbly declining to trash-talk President Obama but assessing their hypothetical one-on-one matchup with self-awareness and humor.
  • “Look, I'm confident myself, but it's a little hard to sit here and say, oh yeah, I'm going to kick Obama's ass in one on one. I'm not going to say that. I'm not giving you that viral moment.” (66:46)
• Rachel and Charlamagne encourage Shapiro to challenge Obama to a friendly game, closing the episode on a note of camaraderie.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On political inspiration and authenticity:
  • “I wanted to be true to who I am. I wanted to make sure folks knew who I am.” — Josh Shapiro (05:32)
• On the disconnect in American politics:
  • “If the politicians started taking their cues from the people, as opposed to the politics, just kind of defining in a negative way, the people.” — Josh Shapiro (04:06)
• On addressing national polarization:
  • “At the national level, they seem to only want to focus on the things that they disagree on. … It's not incentivized in our politics today.” — Josh Shapiro (17:19)
• On community trust in policing:
  • “The most important tool for law enforcement, not a gun or a badge or a radio, it's trust.” — Josh Shapiro (18:56)
• On navigating antisemitism and criticism of Israel:
  • “I think the way I approach this is making sure that we're having two distinct conversations … let's be clear, there's no room for attacks based on your religion … and leave space for real debate about what's happening.” — Josh Shapiro (50:20)
• On what voters want:
  • “People are ready to elect anybody who’s ready to fight for them, who’s got a track record of delivering and who has the know-how to get shit done.” — Josh Shapiro (45:31)
• On the hypothetical Obama basketball matchup:
  • “Look, I'm confident myself, but it's a little hard to sit here and say, oh yeah, I'm going to kick Obama's ass in one-on-one. … I'm not giving you that viral moment.” — Josh Shapiro (66:46)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:02 — Shapiro on the intent behind his book
• 07:07 — Where Shapiro sees “the light” in America
• 13:37 — Shapiro names Trump a “unique kind of evil”
• 15:30 — Blueprint for bipartisanship
• 18:56 — Pennsylvania’s drop in violent crime explained
• 22:37 — The community’s call for safe—but fair—policing
• 26:10 — How digital media undermines political messaging
• 32:26–34:09 — Basketball GOATs and sports banter
• 36:27–41:26 — Shapiro on Meek Mill, criminal justice reform
• 41:59–46:09 — On being Jewish in politics and overcoming bias
• 47:51–54:09 — Antisemitism, Gaza, and progressive divisions
• 55:55–64:02 — Honest debate on Israel/Palestine, rights, and dignity
• 65:28–67:38 — Playful wrap-up with basketball challenge

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Tone & Takeaways

The tone throughout is earnest, candid, and respectful—even (especially) in disagreement. Shapiro is open about controversy, refusing to pander, and eager to ground his arguments in both experience and principle. The hosts press tough questions but also allow for nuance and complexity, modeling a kind of dialogue that is often missing in the current political landscape. The combination of personal storytelling, policy debate, and real talk—along with moments of laughter—makes this episode a must-listen for those seeking both insight and civility in public discourse.

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For Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

This episode delivers a nuanced, topical discussion that reflects the dilemmas many Americans—especially progressives—grapple with today: How to bridge divides in politics, police fairly and effectively, navigate thorny identity issues, and talk honestly about Israel/Palestine. It’s also a revealing window into Governor Shapiro’s values, leadership style, and willingness to engage in real, sometimes uncomfortable, conversation.

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Josh Shapiro]

My kids told me I couldn't wear all black sneaks.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Why?

[Josh Shapiro]

They were like, dad, you look weird in black. You gotta wear white. Now you're cooler than I am.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

But nah, man, these are hocus. I'm wearing these shoes.

[Josh Shapiro]

I have Achilles tendonitis. You're like a suburban dad.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I am. I have Achilles tendonitis.

[Rachel]

Recording on that.

[Josh Shapiro]

Let's come back to sneakers and roll it.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Like, I. Man, I. I was in the HOKA store, and I'm like, yeah. I looked around and there was a twinge of hesitancy. Like, are you at this point in your life? And I'm like, yeah, clearly you are, man. I just left the podiatrist. I got some custom orthotics, the whole nines.

[Josh Shapiro]

You got two orthotics in there, too?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I got orthotics in there as well.

[Josh Shapiro]

What do you put in there? Because I need to put something in my Jordans so it'll be a little more comfortable.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

So, yeah. So I went to Runner's World in Brentwood and they made a custom mold orthotic for me.

[Josh Shapiro]

Oh, you're all in on that?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah. Like, just my Achilles, they're intact, but they were bothering me. I'm old, man. I'm an older guy. I know.

[Josh Shapiro]

You're still ball.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Still play. Still play. Still box, still out there. Still getting buckets. You know what I'm saying?

[Josh Shapiro]

Still getting buckets.

[Rachel]

Do you still play basketball?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Little bit.

[Josh Shapiro]

There's some skeptic. Rachel's a little skeptical.

[Rachel]

Cause he posts his videos, right? So he's definitely posting the boxing.

[Josh Shapiro]

You're in there.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I post the boxing.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I post the boxing. Rachel is skeptical of anything that I've ever accomplished.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah. So.

[Josh Shapiro]

But by the way, now when you play, you feel your Achilles holding on by just like dental flaws.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You go to the basket, but, like, where's the rim? I'm not at the rim. And that what's happening. The rim used to get there quicker, and now I'm driving and I'm still looking into some young kid, like, go up old school. When I heard the old school thing, that was tough.

[Josh Shapiro]

It pisses you off, right? So when I play now, when I played in high school, I played a little bit in college till I got cut from the team. As I read about in the book. I saw it in the book, like, the game was really slow to me, so I was able to kind of see a play before it happened, get the ball where it needed to be, make a read. But I was quick. Now the game is still slow to me, but I'm slow as shit now. And so I can't keep up with these guys. And now my kids are at the age where they beat me up on the court.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That's what's supposed to happen. Supposed to turn over.

[Josh Shapiro]

There's no respect.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

The voice that you guys are hearing, as we already have started the podcast, is the voice of Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro, who joins us on higher learning today. Everybody give it up for the governor.

[Josh Shapiro]

Thanks. Good to be with you.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Now, before we have this conversation, I want to ask you a question. As I've watched your career sort of blossom developed, I've heard the name Charlamagne. It's like, you gotta talk to Josh Shapiro, Van. Josh Shapiro. So, yeah, can we have a real conversation today?

[Josh Shapiro]

I hope so, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

There you go. I'm hoping to have a real conversation with you as well, because I think.

[Josh Shapiro]

But it's a two way street. Of course, if you're asking me to be thoughtful, we have to have a thoughtful conversation both ways.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

We will do it.

[Josh Shapiro]

Just use buzzwords, but actually have a thoughtful, in depth conversation.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

We guarantee you that anything that we ask moving forward comes from our genuine desire to know you better and to connect better with our audience. Great. Okay, first question. The book. Rachel, hold the book up.

[Josh Shapiro]

Thank you, Rachel.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Okay. Cause I don't have mine. Where we keep the light.

[Josh Shapiro]

Hold up that New York Times bestseller,

[Charlamagne Tha God]

best list, seller, bestseller right there. Like I always think that Van and

[Rachel]

I are aspiring to be read. We try.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

This book is a very inspirational read. And I read it. It also, just to be honest, it's a great read. But it comes across as the type of inspirational book that one writes, like the Audacity of Hope or something else when they're hoping to reach a broader audience and make a run for higher office. Is that any part of the calculus in the book?

[Josh Shapiro]

Part of what you said is true. Part of what you said is not.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Okay.

[Josh Shapiro]

And first off, I would never put myself in the same category as Barack Obama. And this book I'd never put in the category of Audacity of Hope. I think that was an extraordinary book.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It is.

[Josh Shapiro]

He's an extraordinary man. I feel blessed to have him in my life and to consider him a friend. I started to write this book because I saw a great disconnect between the people I was meeting along the way. The people who were doing good stuff in their community, the people who were shining a lot of light. As I talk about in the book, and the politicians who, quite frankly, weren't reflecting the goodness of the people who I was visiting with every day. And so I wanted to write a book about. About the goodness I saw every day, the light I saw. And maybe that would be an opportunity to repair our politics. Right. If the politicians started taking their cues from the people as opposed to the politics, just kind of defining in a negative way the people. The second thing I set out to do was to, frankly, be more open about myself. I think it's important when someone's leading, particularly in a job like governor, mayor, these executive roles, for people to know who you are and what motivates you. And I wanted to be really open about how my family and my faith motivate me to serve and how by being open to these people I meet along the way, it's allowed me to learn more about my own self, my own faith, and find myself more connected to them. Now, it is true. I wanted to share that. I wanted to be more out there. I wanted to be more honest with. Not honest, but more open with folks about myself. I did not write this book to try and think about running for something else or for political reasons. There's some folks who would argue that it's probably not smart politically by being open about my faith at a time where that's not maybe the most popular thing. But I wanted to be true to who I am. I wanted to make sure folks knew who I am. In the middle of writing this book, this book about light, darkness came on my family and I when we were attacked in our home. And this person tried to kill me and kill my family. And through that, I saw even greater light from people. People of all different faiths, all different walks of life came together to lift up me and my family in prayer, with support and so many other things. And so even though that ended up being the first chapter, it was obviously not something I contemplated when I began writing this book. So, look, I get. If you want to keep it for real, I get that people view it cynically. Anytime a politician writes a book, to me, this was a way for me to connect deeper, certainly with the people of Pennsylvania, who I represent. And yeah, with a broader audience, with more people to understand what motivates me to serve and hopefully attract other good people into service.

[Rachel]

I also think that the book is so relevant right now just because of where we are as a society, just in the world. And it feels like we can't see the light. So I'm wondering for you, and maybe you thought about this too. As you were writing. I mean, things seem to be worse now, but when you look at America, where do you see the light right now?

[Josh Shapiro]

From the people, not the politicians.

[Rachel]

And are you talking on a. Because you kind of touched on this, too, on a national level, or are you talking about a national politics?

[Josh Shapiro]

I am. I mean, look, the elephant in the room, of course, is the president who I think I'm not here to be political. I just want to be responsive to your question. I think he brings chaos and cruelty and corruption into our world every day. I've got four kids, 24, 21, 17, 15, and their entire frame of reference on politics, taking their dad out of it, has been shaped by Donald Trump and that chaos, cruelty and corruption over the last decade. My theory of the case, which I express in this book, is we're better than that and the people do better than he does every day. And I want us to be defined by the people, not by the corrosive politics that we're experiencing every day. I also, I've shared a lot about how I'm the only governor in the country from, by the way, the swingiest state in the country. Actually, that's not true. I was the only one. There's now one other with a divided legislature. So I got Republicans who lead the Senate by two votes and Democrats who lead the House by one vote. So for me to get anything done, we've got to bring Democrats and Republicans together. And by the way, we do really successfully. I'm happy to get into it during the show in terms of what we've done. So I share that with you because I think we're showing in Pennsylvania we can actually find ways to come together and get shit done, whereas at the national level, it's just corrosive, it's toxic, it's negative. And I would hope that our national politics can be fixed by some of the stories I share of the good people in this book and politicians listening to them, not finding the sort of incentives on the edges of our politics that too oftentimes define our world.

[Rachel]

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[Josh Shapiro]

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[Rachel]

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[Josh Shapiro]

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[Rachel]

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[Josh Shapiro]

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[Rachel]

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[Josh Shapiro]

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[Charlamagne Tha God]

more at applecard.com it's interesting, the belief in people. I consider myself we consider ourselves to be humanists on this podcast and it shapes a lot of the ways that we have conversations, the frustration that people feel when you say that we are better than this. But we the we some version of the we voted for mass deportations, voted for ICE on the streets, maybe didn't vote for this version of it, but voted for what looks like to me a fascist, is a fascist, xenophobic administration. It doesn't sometimes feel like we're better. I think that's a tension that a lot of Americans feel sometimes about asking the question of how good we actually are. When you see that goodness and you say that we're better, what makes you say that?

[Josh Shapiro]

Because I think it's kind of a false frame, and I'm in that with the utmost respect to suggest that because people chose Donald Trump over Kamala Harris, they voted for the unconstitutional, unlawful, dangerous, destructive approach to immigration that we just saw in Minneapolis, by the way, they voted to secure the border. I support that. I want the border secured. They did not vote for these extremist policies, by the way. They didn't vote for all these different wars and engagements that the president is in overseas. I'm sure we'll, we'll get into that. Certainly they they did not vote to have their prices go way up because Donald Trump pressed a button and started a fucking tariff war. And began to jack up prices at the grocery store, at the fuel pump. When you buy something on Amazon, your hocus cost more now because of his tariffs. And so they didn't vote for what Donald Trump is delivering. So I don't buy that he won the election. I think people were frustrated with the direction that things were going under President Biden, all due respect to him. I think they were frustrated by the way the process kind of played out within our party. I wish they wouldn't have chosen Donald Trump. I worked my tail off to have them, at least in Pennsylvania, try and choose Kamala Harris. It didn't go that way, but I don't think people voted for the kind of chaos and cruelty that we're seeing all across the country right now.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

But didn't they vote for a brand? And by the way, this is not in any way to straight up indict the voters. You have to make your case to the voters and then get them right.

[Josh Shapiro]

I have great respect for the voters, but didn't they. I think Donald Trump. Pardon me, Sure. I think Donald Trump pulled the wool

[Charlamagne Tha God]

over their eyes, but they voted for a specific brand of political ugliness post January 6th. They voted for a demonizing of the people they share their communities with, who are undocumented people. There is, some would say there is a version of political evil that Trumpism and MAGA ism represents. Do you think that's true or no?

[Josh Shapiro]

I think Donald Trump represents a unique kind of evil and chaos and cruelty. I do. And I think you're seeing it play out every day across America where America is more dangerous, where things cost more, fewer people have access to health care. There's greater instability across the world, all because of Donald Trump. And I think he is creating others in our society. He points out a particular group and attacks them, sets them aside, pits Americans against one another. I think that makes us less safe. And I think that's bad not just for our politics. I think it's bad for sight. Because back to what I said before, my kids have grown up with this frame that it's not about loving your neighbor, which are kind of, I think, a through line through all of our faiths, all of our religions, that you should love thy neighbor. He's tearing up that playbook and instead going after our fellow Americans. And I think that that's really, really dangerous and toxic.

[Rachel]

I like reading your book. It's really great seeing what you've done and how dedicated you are to the state of Pennsylvania, even turning down the opportunity to run for Senate because you wanted to. You were doing such good work and you wanted to continue to see the work. And you have this conversation. Read the book. I don't want to give too much. But you have this conversation about how it would take a longer time when you talk about, I mean, you, you pride yourself, and rightfully so. You've done in the state of being able to work across the aisle and to work, bring people together in the name of the people, even if you might differ on certain things, I'm wondering, how does one replicate that, what you've been able to do in the state of Pennsylvania, by bringing those diverse viewpoints and common ground together on a national level? Because it's easy to say it's the people and we believe in that. But how do you make that happen in a bigger way?

[Josh Shapiro]

So, first off, I'm doing it in the toughest state in the country to get elected in and then to govern it. I mean, we're as divided politically divided as it comes. Right. I got one Democratic US Senator, one Republican. I got a split congressional delegation.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I think I mentioned you got two Republican senators. You got two Republican senators.

[Josh Shapiro]

He'll come on your show and answer your question. I'm not gonna. And, you know, at least in terms of what the registration is next to their name. Sure. And I got, I think I mentioned this before, 253 state lawmakers. The entire difference between those 253 is three seats. Right. So just to give you a sense of that, what I try to do is sit down with the Republican leaders and say, hey, look, what are the 10 things you want to do? I'll tell you the 10 things I want to do. And then inevitably, there's going to be 4, 5, 6, 7 you're not going to agree on, but there might be three or four or five that you do agree on. That's where you have to hit the pause button. Because in my state, the approach I take is, all right, I'm not going to obsess about the things we disagree on. I'm still going to advocate for them. I'm still going to believe in them, I'm still going to speak out on them, but I'm not going to let that stop progress on the four or five things we do agree on. And we work hard to hammer it out at the national level. They seem to only want to focus on the things that they disagree on. And I think that there is an incentive structure in our media and in the fundraising that they do at the national level that forces you not to compromise and come together, but actually to run to the extremes and just differ. You think about it, if I go out and tweet something about how I worked with Democrats and Republicans to accomplish this, that and the other thing, assuming, by the way, it's something that people in my state want, is that going to get more likes on social media than that person's a jerk and I'm going to fight with them and this and that? No, you know, it's going to get more likes. You know, it's going to raise more money. And so I think we've got this incentive structure that forces people to the extremes when at the end of the day, what people really want is if you're occupying a position of trust, they just want you to make their lives just a little bit better. Right? Fix their kids school, make their streets a little safer, make sure there's a job in the community they love, protect their freedoms and kind of stay out of their business in terms of the decisions they want to make over their own bodies or with their families or for their kids. That's common sense stuff. But it's not incentivized in our politics today. It's working in Pennsylvania. It should be working at the national level. And I'm going to do everything I can to make this an example to others that we can repair our politics, that we can do some good.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

An underreported story right now is places all over the country where crime is dropping. I've made the statement here that it's difficult for the president to take credit for dropping crime because he needs to position a lot of blue cities as Gotham City and himself as Batman. And if there's no need for a Batman, if, you know, local mayors and local governments, guys like Brandon Scott, like, all over the place, if Baltimore, if they're actually having success, Pennsylvania is one of those places where crime has been dropping, particularly in Philly, which got one of the worst Gotham City reputations over the last couple years. How and why is this happening?

[Josh Shapiro]

Well, first off, Mayor Parker's done a great job in Philly. She's a good buddy of mine, and we've been allies and friends for 20, 20 plus years. Let me explain. I fundamentally believe if you do not have a safe community, no one wants to live there. Kids are afraid to go out and play. Businesses aren't going to locate there. It's kind of the foundational thing. You got to be safe in your community. So when I set out first, I was attorney General, now running for governor, I made Clear Safety was going to be top of the list, that we were going to hire 2,000 more police officers across the state and we're going to invest about a half a billion dollars in violence prevention organizations. Think like your local church group, the REC groups, particularly things that are groups that are working with young people to keep them working on the right path. As a result of Those investments, the 2,000 cops, the half billion dollars in violence prevention, we have cut violent crime by 13% in Pennsylvania across the state and fatal gun violence is down 43%. A large reason for that is the investments. Another reason for which, by the way, the federal government has tried to pull away the federal dollars. I've had to sue them to get our money back successfully. And the second reason why is we've worked really, really hard to build trust between the community and the police to make sure our police look like the communities that they are sworn to serve and protect. That we put a lot more money into training. By the way, when a police officer does something wrong, we hold them accountable as well. The community needs to see that. I think the most important tool for law enforcement, not a gun or a badge or a radio, it's trust. If the community sees you as being a trustworthy steward of their safety, they're going to respond well to that. What you saw with the president in Minneapolis and by the way, what you saw here in la, I don't want to pine on California as much. I don't know as much as the mayor here or the governor or what have you. But you've seen it in la, you've seen it in Chicago, you've seen it Portland, federal troops being dispatched then immediately erode that trust and make things less safe, make things more on edge. So to me it's about investment, it's about building trust. It's about making sure the community feels like those who are sworn to serve and protect you actually are doing that work. And that is why I think we've been able to reduce crime. We have worked in our state with our local mayors, including Mayor Parker in Philadelphia, to make sure that we are complimenting the work they do. Our law enforcement teams meet regularly, talk on a daily basis. We share resources, we share intel, we combine on different efforts. So one plus one kind of equals three. Whether it's huge events like what we're hosting across Pennsylvania for USA 250, or whether it's just the daily work to keep our street safe, I know how fundamental and foundational that is. And we're making that happen in Pennsylvania,

[Charlamagne Tha God]

adding cops to the street. A lot of our listeners are going to hear you're on kind of a lefty podcast.

[Josh Shapiro]

They probably won't like that.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Adding cops to the street. A lot of our listeners, you asked

[Josh Shapiro]

me to have an honest, thoughtful conversation,

[Charlamagne Tha God]

and that's what we're going to do. So when we talk about adding police to the streets, number one, or increasing police budgets, how do we make sure that these police are properly trained in the right cops, as you said, how do we make sure that taxpayer money isn't going to police drones, police robots, like a militarized police force that is hardened against a neighborhood? How do we mitigate the effects that overpolicing can have on a community while adding 2,000 more cops to the street?

[Josh Shapiro]

So I can speak about the Pennsylvania state, certainly, and how we do it, but I want to just say, and I get there's some people maybe watching who are kind of scratching their head, maybe not liking what I'm saying. But let me tell you something. The plans that we devised in Pennsylvania that are working came from me listening to the community, not just showing up at a protest, but actually showing up in the neighborhoods that a lot of those protests walk through. And don't spend the time listening to the people in the communities. You listen to people in the communities. They want to be safe. Right.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Interesting indictment of the protesters right now that are from those communities.

[Josh Shapiro]

No, no, hear me on this. When those protests walk through a community, right. I think, by the way, righteously protesting, they have every right to do that. And I support people doing that. But I think it is important that while you're doing that, you stop and listen to the communities that are really affected by the policies. If I was in artful in how I said that, I apologize, but that is what I'm trying to convey when I talk to people in the neighborhoods and they'll say to me, listen, we want our streets to be safe. We want more police. We don't want them pulling over our son just because of the color of his skin. But we want to make sure that if someone's bringing a gun, someone's bringing a knife, someone's creating problems, that that's going to be dealt with in a responsible way. I listen to the communities all across our state. I've responded to that. And. And I think as a result of us bringing crime down, you're seeing our economy grow, you're seeing more kids showing up for school, you're seeing our education system improve. I think it's foundational. The work we Do.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah. A lot of times we don't talk about that. If you ask my mother and my grandmother, they're not gonna say that.

[Josh Shapiro]

Okay, we can argue about it.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm saying no. If you ask my mother and my grandmother, they're gonna be like, we need the police around here.

[Rachel]

Yeah, they left.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

We talked about that on the podcast as well. This is a generation.

[Josh Shapiro]

I misunderstood you. No, no, no.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

If you ask my mother, my grandmother, they're going to be like, like, nah, we need. We need some cops around here. It's an interesting tension that exists sometimes,

[Josh Shapiro]

and it is somewhat generational.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It is somewhat generational. But at the same time, I think that conversation has to keep evolving because sometimes it feels like more police means more police culture. And that just has not worked out for a lot of black and brown,

[Rachel]

which is what we talk about. It's like, how do you use your police force? Like, you talked about the community with churches. Like, I think when you see that kind of see the police actively working with it or working with mental health or social programs, that is what I say, policing where it's in a positive way.

[Josh Shapiro]

I think you're right. And I don't think I fully answered your question, though, about kind of the state police and how we've approached it. Certainly I was a little artful in what I said before and I went back and then I never got to the point of the heart of your question. We have invested an extraordinary amount of money, not just in the bodies that we put out there, but in the training that those new police officers get. We're building a new academy to make sure that they are getting that state of the art training. We invest in bringing the police into working with the community on violence prevention initiatives. We invest in trying to get police officers out of their cars, walking the beat so they get to know their neighbors. I think all that stuff is really, really important to create a culture that is not what you call it, sort of over policing, but instead a culture of trust and of building that faith with the neighbors. And look, the data shows it's working. We got a lot more work to do. And we've got to continue to focus not just on the data of crime coming down, but making sure that trust quotient goes up.

[Rachel]

Talking about trust, I mean, I would think a lot of voters either. I mean, there are a lot that feel disenfranchised, maybe feel politically homeless, have a distrust for the system. And I think a lot of that plays into messaging. Right? Like, we're I'm sitting here talking to you. I'm hearing you. I feel connected to what you're saying. I read the book. I'm understanding it. Whether I agree or disagree, I understand it. I hear you. A lot of times that messaging, like what you're doing in Pennsylvania or on a national level gets lost in social media. People only reading a quick headline in the podcast and in the way that it comes out, and then they feel disconnected or they just get it wrong, or they don't see what's happening. And you're doing the work in Pennsylvania as we talk about, but for some reason, on a national level, it doesn't seem like this in Pennsylvania, people don't feel it. Particularly in the Democratic Party, they don't feel it. How do you, as a politician, combat that? How do you combat social media? How do you combat people who have a distrust in it? You've been successful with it in Pennsylvania. You've seen the results. But on a national level, how do you fix that?

[Josh Shapiro]

It's hard.

[Rachel]

Yeah. It feels impossible.

[Josh Shapiro]

I can give you an answer as a governor, but let me start by giving you an answer just as a dad. So I'm a dad to four kids who consume, I would say, damn near 100% of their news on social media, where it's being fed to them as opposed to them going out to eat. Right. And I am constantly saying to my kids, hey, where did you see that? Have you kind of tried to source that somewhere else? Are you sure it's true? Not arguing, hey, I disagree with your view or whatever. I want my kids to disagree with me. I want them to form their own opinions. That's a good thing. But trying to teach them to be good digital citizens, where they actually go a little bit deeper, do a little bit of research, learn a little bit more so they can form those thoughtful opinions. Because to your point, it's just usually a headline that triggers something, and then that's what they think. So that's a struggle Lori and I have just as parents every day, trying to help our kids learn things in a more thoughtful way and then form their own opinions. Look, as a governor, I view myself as accountable to 13 million Pennsylvanians, and I'm mindful that maybe now some folks outside Pennsylvania are curious what my thoughts are on that, on different things. And so what I try and do is sit down, folks like you and others, and have long and thoughtful conversations like this. I recognize that someone can snip a couple of my words, right? And then turn that into some viral moment and misunderstand me. I'm sure there's something I've already said that someone's going to snip and say that they don't like this, that or the other thing. And I think it's incumbent upon me to sit, to answer questions, to give a thoughtful answer and hopefully begin to change the culture of how people consume information and get them not just to look at a headline, but actually listen to a longer dialogue like this. I think if you look fewer and fewer people are consuming media in traditional ways, but they're listening to long form podcasts like this. You all, I think in many ways have a responsibility to helping fix this because you have earned something that is really valuable in this world. You've earned trust from your listeners. And so when you have someone on like me, you should ask me questions, you should push me to answer them in a thoughtful way and in a long form way. And hopefully that begins to also repair how people consume information, what they think, and create space for not just headlines, but something a little deeper than that. It's hard. I wish I had a perfect answer for you. I don't. I also. Sorry, one last thing. I mean, I think we do have to acknowledge that these social media companies, they do have some responsibility here. It's not just to like put up a blank slate and say, hey, say whatever the hell you want. There has to be some measure of checks on the system. Not left wing, right wing checks, but just some responsibility to the truth and making sure that facts, not fiction, are what's put out there.

[Rachel]

Yeah, it just seems like the purpose is to divide and you kind of touched on that. And that's why I'm wondering, how does it get any better? How do you combat that with all the good intention? It just feels almost like it's so overwhelming. It feels like an impossible task. Not trying to discourage it, like you're doing the work. But I'm just saying it's like you said, people want a viral moment. They want what's going to be, I guess, salacious or just like attract divide people. Something that's gonna be controversial. And it's like how when you're trying to put out the message out there, that's the truth in a good way. That might not be as sexy to talk about. How do you combat that as well?

[Josh Shapiro]

Look, a lot of it goes back to the algorithms and how they get set. The algorithms are not set to incentivize thoughtful conversation that actually brings people together. It is incentivized to find that 10 second viral moment where somebody misspeaks or what have you and takes it to an extreme.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah. Happens to me all the time.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah. You know, Is that what it is? You know, Governor, I mean, well. But maybe I overreacted to Bam passing up Kobe. You know, maybe I. Maybe I.

[Josh Shapiro]

That was crazy. 83 points.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah, you saw crazy. So you thought that was. You're a basketball fan. You thought that was ethical. You thought that was an ethical 83 points from BAM.

[Josh Shapiro]

Why do you think it was not ethical?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Did you watch the last 10 minutes of the game?

[Josh Shapiro]

He's a Kobe.

[Rachel]

He's a Lakers fan.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

They're fouling on purpose. Everybody back here knows what I'm talking about. They following on. I don't want to get into this whole thing. We'll talk a little basketball.

[Josh Shapiro]

I mean, he did shoot like a thousand free throws.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

He shot 1,043 free throws.

[Josh Shapiro]

It was amazing. And by the way, made. What was he, 80 plus percent? I mean, he played great.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

He played well. I apologize.

[Rachel]

They helped him after like 70, which is why he wants to call me.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah, I apologize.

[Josh Shapiro]

Whereas Kobe, by the way, Kobe got his 82. 81.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

81.

[Josh Shapiro]

81 at a time where they hacked the hell out of him and didn't call those fouls today. Those would be flagrants. He'd be shooting extra free throws. Pretty amazing.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah. See, you need to be. You need to. You gotta stand up for Philly. Philadelphia here, you got stand up for.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah, I mean, Kobe's our guy. From Laura Marion. Who's your goat, by the way? Who's your goat? Should we fight about that?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It's Jordan.

[Josh Shapiro]

Okay, we're good.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It's Jordan. It's Jordan.

[Josh Shapiro]

My kids keep trying to tell me, LeBron.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It's generational. It's generational.

[Josh Shapiro]

Who's second on your list? Kobe second or LeBron second?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Nah, nah, nah. It's LeBron second. Man, I can't be that much of

[Josh Shapiro]

a. Kobe's your top five?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Kobe's in my top five?

[Josh Shapiro]

Who else?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It's like, I mean, like, for me, obviously, if I'm giving a top five, that's based on whatever, but, like, Kobe Bryant just means a lot to me. He's one of those athletes. But it's LeBron. It's. You have to consider. I have guys in my top 10 that other guys might not like.

[Rachel]

Well, who?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Elijah ones in my top 10.

[Josh Shapiro]

He was incredible, by the way. There's no Joel Embiid without Hakeem. Elijah 1.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah. There might not be a Joel Embiid, period.

[Josh Shapiro]

He had the softest touch and it's just incredible. Who's your other two in your top five?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

So my top five would be. Just. My top five would be. It's like, it's pretty generic. It's Magic Bird, LeBron Jordan at the 1. Kobe 5. I would put Kobe at 5. For me. Okay, I'll put Kobe at 5. And that, that's, that's. That's Stan. Shit.

[Josh Shapiro]

So I'm, I'm with you because you

[Charlamagne Tha God]

can't really put Kobe ahead at this point. There's a legitimate conversation about whether or not Steph is ahead of Kobe.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Whether or not Steph is past Kobe.

[Josh Shapiro]

Look, I, I would take Larry Bird out of that because I fucking hate the Celtics. Oh, hate the Celtics. No, Larry Bird. Great player. Yeah. But I, I think there's an argument for Wilt and for Steph certainly. Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Wilt most dominating player, Kareem as well, like.

[Josh Shapiro]

But I think you got to put Wilt over Kareem.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Really. Yeah.

[Josh Shapiro]

Just so dominant. I mean the game was different.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Right.

[Josh Shapiro]

But you're so dominant.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Kareem's championships all time scoring record, all of that stuff.

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[Josh Shapiro]

Incredible. I'm not taking anything away from him.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Before we move away from Pennsylvania, I do want to ask.

[Josh Shapiro]

Can we do this more?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You like that, wouldn't you? I do want to ask about your relationship with Meek Mill. This has been something. Cause you know, Meek is one of those guys that. Meek is a very well meaning, curious guy. But every once in a while, Meek just goes on Twitter and just go. One time he went on Twitter and he went too hard. And then he said that you called him.

[Josh Shapiro]

I did.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And you were like, yo, Meek, chill.

[Josh Shapiro]

I wish you wouldn't have done that.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Okay, okay. What's your relationship with Meek Mill like? Talk about what Meek means to you.

[Josh Shapiro]

It's a bit of a long story if I can get into it.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I'm aware of the story. I covered it when I was working at the other place, like some of that stuff. But I know.

[Josh Shapiro]

So dear friend of mine for probably two decades now, guy named Michael Rubin is good friends of Meek, who I did not know at the time. And Meek went in for what was fairly routine probation hearing. And the judge threw him into jail for a minor probation violation.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Popping a wheelie.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah. Which you could argue isn't even a probation violation. And she threw him in. If memory serves me, I think it was two years. And Michael calls me. I'm attorney General at the time. Michael calls me, leaving the courthouse, hair on fire, angry. They put Meek away. This is wrong. And I'll be very honest with you. My immediate reaction was Meek must have done something. And I cautioned Michael, I said I would just be a little bit careful here. You probably don't know something. I'm sure the judge had a reason. I was kind of on the side of. I'm sure the justice system is right here. Didn't know Meek didn't sort of couldn't weigh in on him personally. And I said to Michael, let me just sort of spend some time on this. Let me look at. The more I looked at it, the more I sort of dug into it, the more I realized that Meek got a real raw deal. And Michael said to me, I'm going to do everything in my power to. I think they called it Free Meek. He and Jay Got, you know, and did that. I just encouraged him as he went through that process. You should work to free Meek because it is a bum deal what he got. But you've got a lot of power, you've got a lot of resources. You can't just make this about Meek. You've got to make this about the thousands, hundreds of thousands of people who get caught up in our system, who are not famous like Meek Mill, but who get the same thing. And they get in this perpetual cycle of probation violations going back in. And you got to do something about it. To Michael's great credit, he listened, created the reform movement. He and Robert Kraft and Jay and a whole bunch of folks. And they've done extraordinary work both advocating for policy changes and getting a whole bunch of people out of this dangerous cycle. I was proud to sign into law in Pennsylvania some of the most progressive, far reaching probation reforms that, that in effect, I won't get into details, but sort of caps how long you'd be in there. Creates opportunities for this kind of thing to not happen again. The night that Michael was successful in Free Meek, he asked me, hey, would you like to come meet up with him at a Sixers game? Or meet. Because he went straight to a Sixers game. Meet him when he lands. I was like, I really don't. I'm not looking for attention on this. I'm not looking for no, but I'm not looking like this. I'm not looking to sort of make this about myself. I said, but I would like to actually come and talk to him. And so we just had a quiet dinner, the three of us, at Michael's house, I think maybe a day after he got out. And I got to tell you, Meek opened up my eyes to a lot of different things. I learned a lot more about the challenges that he and others had growing up and the way the system made it harder for them to get a shot, to get ahead. I learned a lot more about some of the failures of our criminal justice system. And I learned a lot more about music too, because he asked me if I liked his music. And I was brutally honest with him and my kids did and I didn't. I was like, man, I really find a lot of your music quite offensive. And then we sat there for hours. He would play a track, ask me what I thought, and then explain the meaning behind it. And so it kind of opened up my eyes a lot more to understanding his music, the way he thinks, the way he approaches things. And I'm a better person because that relationship he is, as you said, unbelievably curious and incredibly intelligent. And he also has these moments, maybe, where he kind of weighs in on some stuff that I wish he would.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Governor Meek, one day.

[Josh Shapiro]

I did call and encourage him to maybe chill out on Twitter. Yeah. Like, I'm not trying to tell him what to think or what to say, but, you know, there's a way to do it anyway. I feel blessed to have him in my life and to learn from him. And I think I'm a more compassionate person and understanding person because of what he's taught me over the years, and I appreciate him. And you know what? There are a whole lot of people who were no longer incarcerated who shouldn't have been incarcerated in the first place because of policies I've changed in Pennsylvania, of decisions I've made on pardons and clemencies because of lessons that Meek has taught me.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Wow, we gotta talk a little bit about national politics here. So you hit on something earlier when you were talking about your faith, which is very important to you, and you said it might not be the smartest political move for you to talk as much.

[Josh Shapiro]

Some people have said that.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Some people have said that. To talk as much about your faith because it might hinder you in the realm of national politics. I was talking to a friend of mine who reached out to a bunch of people when you were coming on, and a friend of mine was like. He talked about how much he liked you. I got two different responses.

[Josh Shapiro]

Oh, boy.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

We're talking about both of these, but I'm gonna talk about the first one. First he goes, love that guy. Then he goes, too bad a Jew can't be president. This guy is Jewish, and he's feeling a lot of weight right now. He's feeling. It's heavy for him. And we talked a little bit more about how he was feeling. How he was feeling after what happened yesterday, how he's been feeling in Michigan. In Michigan, yes. Of course. We talked a little bit about it on the podcast, how he's been feeling. But he seemed to share some of the skepticism that you maybe intimated people have told you about your rise and whether or not your faith would hold you back from being a national political figure. Do you think that what my friend said is correct? That a Jewish man cannot be the president? A Jewish person cannot be the President.

[Josh Shapiro]

So 1. I'm sorry your friend feels that way. I'm sorry. There are people who said to me, hey, be careful about sharing yourself. But. And your faith, because that could be bad for you. Politically, I'm sorry that that exists in our society, certainly. Let me sort of break down your question, a few things. First, my experience on this, again, coming from the perspective of being in Pennsylvania, which I think we can all agree, the toughest swing state, biggest swing state in the entire country. And by the way, I think Republicans, Democrats would agree, if you want to win national election, you got to win Pennsylvania. When I was running for governor and we were putting our first ad out there, sometimes you run an ad about your policy views. Sometimes you run an ad attacking your opponent for their policy views. I decided I wanted to run an ad that was deeply personal, and that is to tell the people of Pennsylvania why I wanted to serve, what motivates me to serve. And to me, that's central. Things that caused me to serve are family and faith. And so we ran an ad showing where I am pretty much near every Friday night, which is sitting around the dinner table with my family, celebrating our Sabbath, having our Sabbath dinner. And there were a bunch of political folks who were like, I don't think you want to run that ad. People are going to know you're Jewish. I'm like, I think they know I'm Jewish at this point. Right. But I wanted people to know who I am and what motivates me. Here's why I'm sharing that story with you. After we ran that ad, I'd show up in North Philly and people would tell me about their iftar after Ramadan and how special that was for them. And they loved reading about my family meals. I'd show up in some rural communities where there weren't many Jews, and people would want to tell me what lunch is like after church on Sunday. Tell me about their Christmas Eve traditions. Being open about yourself and your faith, I think has the effect of actually allowing people to see you at a deeper level and then share of themselves at a deeper level than what you might normally share with your governor or with your mayor or something like that. So it's actually allowed me to connect deeper with folks. And not only did I win the election, I got more votes than anybody in the history of Pennsylvania running for governor. Not just Democrats, but Republicans, Independents, as well as for a broader conversation about America. I think America is ready to elect a woman, a black person, a gay person, a Jewish person, whatever. What America wants is someone who's going to get shit done for them, who's going to make their lives better, and they don't care what they look like or how they worship or what their gender is. They just want to know you're on their side and you're going to fight for them. I think it is a tired conversation that we can't elect someone like X because of their characteristic. I think instead we have to understand the American people, and this has been my experience in Pennsylvania, are a lot better than what our shallow politics suggest. And so I believe the American people will elect anybody who's ready to fight for them, who's got a track record of delivering and who has the know how to get shit done.

[Rachel]

Do you think that's interesting? Do you think we're past as a country identity politics or even weaponizing identity or maybe even becoming the victim of it when it comes to politics?

[Josh Shapiro]

No, I don't think we're past it.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Okay.

[Josh Shapiro]

I just think people are better than it. Look, Barack Obama's election victory was historic. But what I thought was even more historic and more extraordinary about it is the diverse coalition he pulled together in order to win. And he won. And people voted for him because they felt that he was hopeful and he was going to bring change and he was going to deliver for them. And he was a history making candidate. My point in sharing that is I think America is ready for all of the above when it comes to people of different characteristics, different walks of life. But what America really needs is someone who's gonna go bat for them every day, fight for them every day and be able to get stuff done for them every day. That is the central thing people want. There's still identity politics, it's still incentivized in our social media, it's still used as a weapon. I just don't think that weapon is as strong as the will of the American people.

[Rachel]

Do you think we talked a little bit on the podcast that the other day about the tragedy that happened in Michigan and you know, in your book you start the first chapter about, you know, the attack against your residents, against you, with the conversations we're having here in this country and even, you know, you can, within the world, I guess. Do you think that Americans understand the rise of antisemitism over the past few years?

[Josh Shapiro]

It's really hard to not see it and know it's out there. I think it's beginning to be more understood and sadly I think it's being more accepted as well. What you saw yesterday in Michigan is the latest example of that. And let's all agree, thank God no one was killed. I mean, that was a situation where a lot of lives could have been taken. And my friend Gretchen Whitmer was on tv, I think it was this morning, making clear, like, there's no place for this. We've got to condemn it. I think all leaders have to speak with moral clarity on this. There should be no room for anti Semitism, hatred, bigotry, racism, homophobia, any of that in our society. And when it rears its ugly head, we all need to stand up together and condemn it. And by the way, not just a Jewish governor, all governors, we all need to condemn it. That's why I was grateful for what Gretchen said today. I also think it's really important that the seeds that get planted that lead to incidents like this, that we're sort of stop planting those seeds, stop giving a pass to different things and call it out earlier on before it reaches the point where, where there's violence, before it reaches the point where someone is gunned down, before it reaches the point where little children's lives are at risk just simply because they go to school at a synagogue.

[Rachel]

Follow up, there was a report that came out that after the election, actually this was recent of the election, 2024, and it was done, I think, think by the Democrats. It was kind of like an autopsy of kind of what happened. And the discussion was that they concluded that Kamala Harris lost significant support because of the Biden administration's approach to the war in Gaza. I'm wondering for you, how do you approach a conversation when it seems that progressive and moderate Democrats seem particularly divided over Israel and what's happening in Gaza? Like, how do you approach that type of conversation when it comes to unity, like you talk of, in bringing diverse viewpoints and opinions together?

[Josh Shapiro]

So let me answer that by picking up on the question we just were talking about related to antisemitism. I think the way I approach this is making sure that we're having two distinct conversations. One about condemning anti Semitism, which to me is an issue that has no nuance. It's whatever, black and white. We should all come together and say antisemitism is bad and we're going to speak out against it. The second conversation is Mideast policy. What's happening in Israel, what's happening in Gaza, what's happening in Iran. And on that, those issues are full of nuance and we have to leave room for debate, we have to leave room for differences. And when someone has a different opinion than you on foreign policy, it doesn't make him an anti Semite. Foreign policy in Israel, it doesn't make him an anti Semite. We have to create space for that discussion. So when you ask me, how do you approach it? That's what I try and do. Let's be clear. There's no room for attacks based on your religion, your ideology. And again, I try and call it out wherever I see it. I communicated with Governor Whitmer yesterday about the attack in Michigan. I communicated with Mayor Mamdani, whatever it was, three, four days ago, after the attack outside his home, motivated. The motivation was predicated upon different religions, but still, there should be zero tolerance for any of that. So I try and separate out those two conversations, leave space for real debate about what's happening, say, with Israel, Middle east, what have you, but make clear that we all have to rally together with no nuance. Black and white speak with clarity when it comes to combating hatred and bigotry of all forms.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Would you agree that it's sometimes difficult to do that? Because any talk or any discussion, any criticism of the government of Israel, or if you were to say that you are an anti Zionist, I mean, there was a resolution passed in the House, in Congress, that said anti Zionism is anti Semitism. So it seems like the nuance gets purposefully taken out of that argument to make any criticism, any critique of the state of Israel, not just with the policy and the genocide that it happens and is ongoing. Right now, it's, you know, the ceasefire continues to be broken, but the historic treatment of the Palestinian people, any deep dive into that, and it seems like you're punished for it. You can't have the conversation.

[Josh Shapiro]

I think that's dangerous. And look, we should get into the issue so we can have a thoughtful conversation about it. But I don't think that if you are critical of Benjamin Netanyahu, you're an anti Semite. By the way, I'm critical of Benjamin Netanyahu, and I have been for years and years and years. Even predating October 7th, I think his approach has made Israel less safe. I think it's undermined US national security interests, which is my primary concern. And I think that criticizing him as I do isn't anti Semitism. By the way, I criticize Donald Trump every day. I've criticized him on your podcast. I'm a proud, patriotic American. So I think that you have to create space for honest dialogue, for thoughtful discussion of differences as it relates to policy or political leadership or what have you. The point I'm trying to make, and I apologize if I've not made that clearly, is that we've got to be clear and resolute about standing up against anti Semitism, standing Up against hatred, standing up against bigotry. And that should be something we can come together and agree on.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Let me try to crystallize what I'm saying a little bit more. I'm a black man living in America. I'm from South Baton Rouge, Louisiana. When I got to high school, my high school was 1994. My high school had a white homecoming queen and a black homecoming queen. It's 1994. When I got to high school, I'm old, guys. I can step back and look at that and go look at the function of racism in my culture and my community. I can look at the historic treatment of black people in America, other people in America, and say that apartheid has nothing on what we've done to black people here historically and traditionally. I can't say that about Israel. No matter how much work that I do, no matter how many people that I talk to, no matter how many books that I read, I can't call not just Benjamin Netanyahu's regime now. I can't say that there's historically been an apartheid situation in Israel. I can't say that there's been tremendous. Well, when I say can't, meaning in a good faith argument, I can have a conversation where I say America is both this place that has provided the world with all kinds of different things, and it is also this tremendous, tremendous project of systemic racism. That's a fact. And people go, all those things are true. If I say that Israel is an apartheid state or that in order for Israel to be founded where it is right now, there had to be this massive ethnic cleansing campaign that went on where people cannot go back to their homes, the checkpoints, whatever it is. We have that conversation. You start to hear people say that you hate Jewish people.

[Josh Shapiro]

Okay, I see your point.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Right.

[Josh Shapiro]

Okay. So I fundamentally disagree with your viewpoint, certainly. But I don't think you're an anti Semite. I think that you are learning and struggling and grappling with issues that are really, really tough. And you formed an opinion, one that I disagree with, that you seemingly hold. Very honestly, I don't think that you've got hate in your heart toward someone because they're Jewish. I think you've got different views, say, than I do about Israel or about the Middle East. I mean, so I'm trying to make sure I'm getting that.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

No, no, no, no, no. This, this, what, what I, what I want, what I'm interested in, is the dignity of people.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And that animates me in a real way. Like, I'm not a moral good person. Okay. But I do care about the dignity. I'm not trying to, I don't want people, because I don't want people to, you know, pull up my, my browser history and all of that stuff. But like, but you want him to

[Josh Shapiro]

pull up your basketball stats?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Well, I want him to pull up my basketball stats.

[Josh Shapiro]

He's showing me his basketball stats before

[Charlamagne Tha God]

we start basketball stats. But I do want to have an honest conversation about the dignity of the global south. About people's ability to live full free, self determinative lives.

[Josh Shapiro]

Right.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And any state, any state anywhere that might be encroaching on that. I believe that Israel has been one of the worst human rights violators in the history of his existence. Not saying, but I believe that to be the case. I want to be able to talk about that so that we can talk about how we change things and have a lasting peace in that region.

[Josh Shapiro]

Okay, so we're talking about, and by the way, I think we're doing it really civilly and I appreciate that we need more of that. So let's walk through this. Okay. Usually the conversation, you didn't start it here, but you used the term apartheid. So we'll get to that in a second. Usually the conversation starts around the idea of does Israel have the right to exist and exist as a Jewish state? So let's sort of start there if we're going to have a thoughtful conversation about this. There are 43 countries in the world that are majority Muslim. 26 of those 43 recognize Muslim, pardon me, Islam as their official religion. There is one country in the world that recognizes Judaism as their official religion. And so if we're going to have an honest conversation about does a nation have a right to exist if it's predicated upon a faith, kind of got to scratch your head and wonder, okay, why are we talking about the one and not the other? 26. But okay, let's talk about the one.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Do you want me to answer that question?

[Josh Shapiro]

Sure, if you want. I want to finish the thought.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

No. Well, this is what I would say, number one, that is true. But there are some interesting caveats here. Number one, Israel is positioned worldwide as a Western liberal democracy.

[Josh Shapiro]

Right?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Western liberal democracies should not be oriented around or are not normally oriented around religion. Like ethno supremacy. Ethno religious supremacy.

[Josh Shapiro]

So let's talk about that. Okay, let's talk about it. But you talk about peace and you talk about that. I want to hit both points. You and I, I think both want the same Thing we want peace in the Middle East. I'll define what peace looks like and you can share your thoughts. Peace to me are two nations, Israel and a Palestinian country, living side by side in peace with full recognition for one another, an acknowledgement that both have a right to exist and an acknowledgement that the goal of each country is not to wipe out the other. That is what I want. I want peace. I think if one doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist, then you're not you. Then one is in effect for really just permanent war because you're effectively saying Israel's got to go and Israel's not going anywhere. So you're in effect saying we're just going to have this permanent state of war in the Middle East. I want peace and I want to see opportunity for peace. And peace requires respect and dignity for all people in the region and for ultimately two states. We're a long way from two states, but that has been my view for, I don't know, probably the last 15 or 20 years or so.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You realize that Israel is doing that though. You realize that as we speak, Israel and has over the course of its recent history and its longer history violated agreements that push further and further and build settlements into the west bank and annex land that they should not. They're threatening the existence of these people as they can self govern every single day.

[Josh Shapiro]

I'll address that because it's a fair point. Okay. I would also just say recognize that the governing authority in Gaza, Hamas terrorist group that wants to wipe Israel and all Jews off the map. So you've got problems here. I would argue terrorist entity is far more dangerous. But you've got problems here on the

[Charlamagne Tha God]

nuclear powered nation on the other side.

[Josh Shapiro]

But I would agree with you that the situation in the west bank is unacceptable. In fact, just about a week or so ago I called on Pam Bondi, who's the Attorney General of the United States, to investigate the killing of a Palestinian American who happens to be from Northeast Philly, who was killed seemingly based on the information we have available to us, seemingly by settlers in the West Bank. And I made clear we need both a diplomatic solution to stop this type of action in the west bank and we need a full accounting for what happened to this American citizen while there. I've been very outspoken about what's happening in the west bank is absolutely not okay. The idea that settlers are going and burning farms and killing people or driving them from their land, that is unacceptable to me. We're in violent agreement. I would say on that issue I want to just mention. There's one other word you used, and I don't want to let it hang there. I think it's important to have this conversation. Certainly you used the word apartheid. Take a look. In Israel, someone who would identify as Muslim, someone who would identify as a Palestinian Christian. They live in a society with all of the same rights and legal responsibilities. Please help me finish.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I got you.

[Josh Shapiro]

As Israelis, they get elected to the Knesset, which is their parliament. They pay taxes. They can serve in the military. They are citizens in the world in a way that a true apartheid state would not allow for. Go ahead. I didn't mean to cut you off. Please.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I disagree with that.

[Josh Shapiro]

I know you do.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I do not think that they have all of the same rights. I think that there are both soft violations of their rights and more structural violations of their rights. You can look at things as the nation state law. There's many different ways that the government of Israel, both structurally and culturally, establishes the supremacy that they have to have in their society in order for it to operate the way that it does. Because the math just doesn't work out. I don't want to hold you here and hold you on this because we got to go. I would love to get into this deeper with you, but can't end on this.

[Rachel]

We can't end on this.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

We can't end on this.

[Josh Shapiro]

You do appreciate the conversation?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I do as well.

[Rachel]

It's a good example of how it should be.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I appreciate the willingness to have the conversation and also once again have to say it again that on higher learning we were combating anti Semitism before October 7th. We are not going to stand for any anti Semitism like we're not going to, but we are going to advocate for the dignity and the humanity of the Palestinian people. And I don't think that that has to be a choice. You don't have to have. I don't either, but. And I just want us to make sure that because this is going to be an issue moving forward as we see support for Israel erode across the American political landscape, we're going to have to have this conversation more robustly.

[Josh Shapiro]

I don't either. And I think what you heard me say is very to what I think your aspirational goal is, what I hope your aspirational goal is, and that is to have dignity for the Palestinian people, their own homeland, living side by side with Israel. I think what is dangerous here, I'm not accusing you of this by any stretch, is for those who think Israel doesn't have a right to exist in that conversation. That to me is a recipe for permanent war. And what I want to see is peace. And I think you want to see peace as well.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Safety for the Israeli people, safety for the Palestinian people. I want to ask you one more question before you leave.

[Josh Shapiro]

Can we get back to basketball?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

But we'll get back to basketball right now. Like if we just. Just so we can leave you talking about this hooping right now. You versus Obama, 1 to 12. Make it, take it, Is it? Make it, take it, make it, take it.

[Josh Shapiro]

And can we guarantee neither one of us are gonna blow our Achilles out? Right. So we're gonna be healthy?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I don't know that you can guarantee that, Governor. I just like you versus Obama.

[Rachel]

Assuming you're both healthy.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Assuming you're both healthy.

[Josh Shapiro]

Assuming we're both healthy.

[Rachel]

You're playing in great shape.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

The ex president is what, he's 63, 64 right now.

[Josh Shapiro]

He's really good and he's in great shape. So I'm deadly for mid range. Okay. The problem I'm gonna have is he is long and he's got long arms. Be careful there, Josh. No, he's got long arms and so if he is able to stop me from getting that mid range jump shot off or I'm off that day and I miss, he's going to be in a position to box me out, get those rebounds I think he has.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Oh, no, once you shoot, that's it. Right?

[Josh Shapiro]

Because he gets a rebound.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Oh, no, we're not boarding.

[Josh Shapiro]

Oh, there's no board. You just got to.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

No, no, no, no, no. We playing for real skills based one on one. You miss, it's the other guy's ball. We're not playing hustle man ball.

[Josh Shapiro]

Oh, okay. I think it's a tough game. It's a close game. He's just. Man, he's long. He's going to be able to interrupt my jump shot. And as my kids will tell you, if he pushes me further out into three, that's where I'm going to lose a lot of accuracy. Look, I'm confident myself, but it's a little hard to sit here and say, oh yeah, I'm going to kick Obama's ass in one on one. I'm not going to say that. I'm not giving you that viral moment.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Cause by the way, I'll bust his ass.

[Rachel]

He just looked deadly from. Wait, have you ever played with him before?

[Josh Shapiro]

I actually haven't. No, I haven't played with him before.

[Rachel]

This is the moment this. If you could do anything, you should at least challenge him to a game. Y' all should.

[Josh Shapiro]

Y' all should play. Yeah, this is.

[Rachel]

This is.

[Josh Shapiro]

All right, Mr. President.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I'm challenging Governor Shapiro. Thank you for joining us on. We appreciate you joining us.

[Josh Shapiro]

Thank you.