Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: A Real Conversation With Gov. Josh Shapiro
Date: March 14, 2026
Guest: Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro

Overview

In this engaging episode, Van Lathan, Rachel Lindsay, and guest co-host Charlamagne Tha God sit down with Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro for what he promises will be a “real conversation.” The episode traverses Shapiro’s personal motivations, the themes of his new book, the realities of American politics, policing, social trust, and a candid discussion about identity, antisemitism, and the Israel-Palestine conflict. The show balances serious policy talk with playful moments, sports banter, and honest debate—offering both political depth and cultural flavor.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Personal Roots, Motivation & The Book

• Governor Shapiro discusses his inspiration for his memoir, “Where We Keep the Light,” emphasizing his desire to showcase the goodness he witnesses in everyday people, contrasted with the negativity in politics.
  • “I saw a great disconnect between the people I was meeting … and the politicians who, quite frankly, weren't reflecting the goodness of the people.” (04:06)
  • Shapiro stresses that the book aims to connect more deeply with constituents and was not written merely for political ambition.
• On openness about faith and family:
  • Shapiro is candid about how his Judaism and family experiences shape his leadership, acknowledging that this openness can be politically risky but is essential to authenticity.
• On experiencing darkness:
  • Shares a harrowing account of a violent attack targeting his family, which became the book’s opening chapter, illustrating a commitment to hope and light even amid adversity. (06:47)

Where’s the “Light” in America?

• Rachel Lindsay probes, asking, “Where do you see the light right now?” (07:07)
• Shapiro points to the people, not politicians, as America’s beacon of hope:
  • “From the people, not the politicians.” (07:07)
  • He makes a stark distinction between the community’s everyday acts of unity and the divisiveness of national politics.
• Key insight: Shapiro’s experience in purple Pennsylvania is touted as a template for bipartisan cooperation and productive governance.

Voting, the Trump Era, and American “Goodness”

• Charlamagne Tha God pushes back on American exceptionalism, citing voter complicity in Trump-era policies:
  • “But we some version of the we voted for mass deportations, voted for ICE on the streets…” (10:39)
  • Shapiro responds by reframing Trump’s win as voter frustration with establishment politics, not an endorsement of cruelty or chaos:
  • “They didn’t vote for what Donald Trump is delivering … I don’t think people voted for the kind of chaos and cruelty that we’re seeing all across the country right now.” (13:01)
• Discussion of “political evil”:
  • Shapiro doesn’t equivocate on his view of Trump: “I think Donald Trump represents a unique kind of evil and chaos and cruelty. I do.” (13:37)

Bipartisanship in Practice

• Rachel highlights Shapiro’s reputation for working across the aisle and asks how such cooperation can scale nationally.
• Shapiro’s formula:
  • Focus on shared goals rather than fixating on points of disagreement.
  • “In my state … I’m not going to obsess about the things we disagree on ... but I’m not going to let that stop progress on the four or five things we do agree on.” (15:49)
  • Key challenge: At the national level, media and fundraising structures incentivize polarization, not compromise.

Crime, Community, and Policing

• Charlamagne notes Pennsylvania’s crime drop, particularly in Philadelphia—questioning how Shapiro’s administration achieved these results amid national narratives of urban decline.
• Shapiro credits:
  • Investment in law enforcement (adding 2,000 police officers).
  • $500 million in violence prevention programs, especially those aimed at youth.
  • Building trust between police and communities.
  • “The most important tool for law enforcement … is trust.” (18:56)
• Audience concern:
  • Charlamagne and Rachel probe issues of over-policing, training, and militarization.
  • Shapiro reiterates his community listening, emphasizes the importance of training, and acknowledges generational divides in attitudes toward policing.
  • “We invest in trying to get police officers out of their cars, walking the beat so they get to know their neighbors.” (25:08)
  • Admits more work is needed, especially on building trust.

The Frustration of National Messaging & Social Media

• Rachel raises the issue of why positive results in Pennsylvania don’t translate into national Democratic momentum—blaming digital media’s fragmentary and divisive influence.
  • “People only reading a quick headline … and then they feel disconnected or they just get it wrong.” (26:10)
• Shapiro’s response as a “digital dad”:
  • Teaches his kids to source-check and think critically.
  • Advocates longer, thoughtful conversations, such as this podcast, as an antidote to viral out-of-context soundbites.
  • “Maybe now some folks outside Pennsylvania are curious what my thoughts are... I sit down with folks like you and others and have long and thoughtful conversations like this.” (27:19)

Sports Interlude & Tone Reset

• The group lightens the mood, debating who belongs in the basketball “GOAT” conversation.
  • “It's Jordan.” — Charlamagne (32:26)
  • “My kids keep trying to tell me, LeBron.” — Josh Shapiro (32:29)
  • Humorous shoutouts to Kobe, Hakeem, Wilt, and the sentimental case for Philly’s own.
• This sports banter reinforces the episode’s blend of seriousness and camaraderie.

Criminal Justice, Meek Mill, and Reform

• Charlamagne asks about Shapiro’s relationship with Meek Mill and the broader story about criminal justice.
• Shapiro recounts his initial skepticism after Meek was jailed for a minor probation violation, but after examining the case, he realized the injustice.
  • “The more I looked at it … the more I realized Meek got a real raw deal.” (36:57)
  • Shapiro calls for reform, not just for Meek but the thousands entrapped by flawed probation systems.
  • "I was proud to sign into law in Pennsylvania some of the most progressive, far reaching probation reforms ..." (38:55)
  • “I think I’m a more compassionate and understanding person because of what he’s [Meek] taught me.” (40:42)

Politics, Faith, and Identity

• Charlamagne confronts the reality of antisemitism in American politics, asking if Shapiro believes a Jewish person can be president.
  • “Too bad a Jew can't be president … this guy is Jewish, and he's feeling a lot of weight right now.” (41:59)
• Shapiro is optimistic and empirical:
  • Tells a story about running a campaign ad highlighting his family’s Sabbath traditions, which, rather than alienating, helped him connect across religious lines.
  • “I got more votes than anybody in the history of Pennsylvania running for governor… They just want to know you’re on their side … and you're going to fight for them.” (43:07)
  • Concedes, however, that identity politics and its weaponization persist but the American public is “better than it.” (46:22)

Antisemitism, Gaza, and Political Division

• The conversation pivots to the rise in antisemitism (incidents in Michigan and other places) and how national issues like the Gaza war are cleaving the Democratic party.
  • “There should be no room for antisemitism, hatred, bigotry, racism, homophobia, any of that in our society.” (47:51)
• Shapiro’s approach: separate antisemitism from nuanced debate about Israeli policy:
  • “We have to create space for that discussion. … When someone has a different opinion than you on foreign policy, it doesn't make him an anti-Semite.” (50:20)
• On Israel/Palestine debates, Charlamagne and Shapiro engage respectfully despite disagreeing on key terms (e.g., “apartheid”), both emphasizing the importance of honest, dignified discussion.
  • “I think that you are learning and struggling and grappling with issues that are really, really tough. And you formed an opinion, one that I disagree with … I don’t think that you’ve got hate in your heart.” — Josh Shapiro (55:57)

Advocacy for Nuanced, Respectful Dialogue

• Both sides stress the need for open—but civil—debate, especially as America’s support for Israel becomes more fraught among progressives.
  • “We’re not going to stand for any antisemitism … but we are going to advocate for the dignity and the humanity of the Palestinian people. And I don't think that that has to be a choice.” — Charlamagne (64:02)
  • “I think what is dangerous here … is for those who think Israel doesn't have a right to exist in that conversation… what I want to see is peace.” — Josh Shapiro (64:49)

Closing: Basketball, Humor, and Humanity

• The episode closes by returning to basketball, with Shapiro humbly declining to trash-talk President Obama but assessing their hypothetical one-on-one matchup with self-awareness and humor.
  • “Look, I'm confident myself, but it's a little hard to sit here and say, oh yeah, I'm going to kick Obama's ass in one on one. I'm not going to say that. I'm not giving you that viral moment.” (66:46)
• Rachel and Charlamagne encourage Shapiro to challenge Obama to a friendly game, closing the episode on a note of camaraderie.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On political inspiration and authenticity:
  • “I wanted to be true to who I am. I wanted to make sure folks knew who I am.” — Josh Shapiro (05:32)
• On the disconnect in American politics:
  • “If the politicians started taking their cues from the people, as opposed to the politics, just kind of defining in a negative way, the people.” — Josh Shapiro (04:06)
• On addressing national polarization:
  • “At the national level, they seem to only want to focus on the things that they disagree on. … It's not incentivized in our politics today.” — Josh Shapiro (17:19)
• On community trust in policing:
  • “The most important tool for law enforcement, not a gun or a badge or a radio, it's trust.” — Josh Shapiro (18:56)
• On navigating antisemitism and criticism of Israel:
  • “I think the way I approach this is making sure that we're having two distinct conversations … let's be clear, there's no room for attacks based on your religion … and leave space for real debate about what's happening.” — Josh Shapiro (50:20)
• On what voters want:
  • “People are ready to elect anybody who’s ready to fight for them, who’s got a track record of delivering and who has the know-how to get shit done.” — Josh Shapiro (45:31)
• On the hypothetical Obama basketball matchup:
  • “Look, I'm confident myself, but it's a little hard to sit here and say, oh yeah, I'm going to kick Obama's ass in one-on-one. … I'm not giving you that viral moment.” — Josh Shapiro (66:46)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:02 — Shapiro on the intent behind his book
• 07:07 — Where Shapiro sees “the light” in America
• 13:37 — Shapiro names Trump a “unique kind of evil”
• 15:30 — Blueprint for bipartisanship
• 18:56 — Pennsylvania’s drop in violent crime explained
• 22:37 — The community’s call for safe—but fair—policing
• 26:10 — How digital media undermines political messaging
• 32:26–34:09 — Basketball GOATs and sports banter
• 36:27–41:26 — Shapiro on Meek Mill, criminal justice reform
• 41:59–46:09 — On being Jewish in politics and overcoming bias
• 47:51–54:09 — Antisemitism, Gaza, and progressive divisions
• 55:55–64:02 — Honest debate on Israel/Palestine, rights, and dignity
• 65:28–67:38 — Playful wrap-up with basketball challenge

Tone & Takeaways

The tone throughout is earnest, candid, and respectful—even (especially) in disagreement. Shapiro is open about controversy, refusing to pander, and eager to ground his arguments in both experience and principle. The hosts press tough questions but also allow for nuance and complexity, modeling a kind of dialogue that is often missing in the current political landscape. The combination of personal storytelling, policy debate, and real talk—along with moments of laughter—makes this episode a must-listen for those seeking both insight and civility in public discourse.

For Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

This episode delivers a nuanced, topical discussion that reflects the dilemmas many Americans—especially progressives—grapple with today: How to bridge divides in politics, police fairly and effectively, navigate thorny identity issues, and talk honestly about Israel/Palestine. It’s also a revealing window into Governor Shapiro’s values, leadership style, and willingness to engage in real, sometimes uncomfortable, conversation.

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