A$AP Rocky and Rihanna’s Relationship, Plus Stacey Abrams on Protecting the Vote

Summary

Podcast Summary: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: "A$AP Rocky and Rihanna’s Relationship, Plus Stacey Abrams on Protecting the Vote"
Date: August 7, 2026
Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. & Rachel Lindsay
Guest: Stacey Abrams

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Van and Rachel dive into wide-ranging discussions at the intersection of Black culture, politics, and sports. The two break down political results from the latest primary elections, discuss controversies in women's sports, and analyze the internet-buzzing A$AP Rocky and Rihanna interview. The centerpiece is a passionate, insightful conversation with Stacey Abrams about the state of voting rights, democratic backsliding, and her mission to empower marginalized communities through political engagement, literature, and activism.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cultural Catch-Up: Martha's Vineyard, Wine, and Movie Nostalgia

• Rachel podcasts from Martha’s Vineyard for the first time, with scenic views of Inkwell Beach.
• Light banter about wine preferences leads to reminisces about "The Inkwell" movie, celebrating the legacy of Black cinema.
• Quote: “Inkwell is a movie... Go watch the Inkwell. Everybody's in it. I love it.” — Van (03:00)

---

2. Primary Election Analysis: Michigan, Missouri, Kansas, and More

Segment Start: [07:56]

• The hosts analyze outcomes from recent primaries in five states, focusing on Michigan's upset victory by progressive Abdul El-Sayed over establishment incumbent Haley Stevens.
• Discussion centers on the engagement (or lack thereof) of Black voters with progressive candidates, and the continued influence of longstanding figures like Jim Clyburn.
• The role of outside funding, particularly from AIPAC, is debated. While AIPAC's money matters, both agree: local connection and campaigning still count.

Quotes:

• “If you don’t animate and engage Black voters coming from the left, you’re not going to have political success in the long run.” — Van (13:09)
• “I still think Black voters vote for the establishment. So that’s not shocking.” — Rachel (11:40)

---

3. AIPAC, Campaign Finance, and Political Narrative in the Black Community

Segment Start: [17:10]

• The hosts unpack Cori Bush’s loss to Wesley Bell in Missouri, noting how progressive candidates face uphill battles against establishment-backed and heavily funded opponents.
• Van warns against using "AIPAC" as a catch-all excuse for every progressive loss, emphasizing the importance of strong, effective local campaigning.

Quote:

• “We have to understand that in a lot of these races across the country, AIPAC is going to be a gigantic hurdle…That doesn't mean you don't have to run a great campaign.” — Van (19:53)

---

4. WNBA Controversy: Sophie Cunningham and Transgender Athlete Debate

Segment start: [21:45]

• Indiana Fever guard Sophie Cunningham’s recent comments on transgender athletes spark league-wide debate.
• Rachel suggests team pressure (possibly from star Caitlin Clark) led Sophie to backtrack and call the attention a “distraction.”
• Van draws parallels to Fox News’s use of Black communities as “cultural mascots” and critiques using trans people as wedge issues for political gain.

Quotes:

• "If you cannot gift trans people with visibility, humanity, and acceptance, could you at least gift them with silence?" — Van (27:50)
• “It doesn’t even impact the games. You’re talking about something that’s not a thing... it’s a moot argument.” — Rachel (30:05)

---

5. A$AP Rocky & Rihanna: Viral Relationship Moments

Segment Start: [33:24]

• Van and Rachel reflect on A$AP Rocky’s heartfelt viral interview describing Rihanna’s support during personal lows.
• They address online skepticism, defending the authenticity of Rocky’s description of love and emotional safety.
• Emphasis on celebrating moments of real, healthy vulnerability, rather than defaulting to cynicism.

Quotes:

• “She always there for me, bro. Genuinely. My first album went number one. My dad died on Christmas...She walked right in. Yo, you good? That’s real to me.” — A$AP Rocky (Interview clip at 34:10)
• “That shows trust. That shows respect. That is what I would think you would want in a partner.” — Rachel (36:15)
• “If you’re giving a side eye too much, your eyes are probably stuck that way...Take five seconds to be happy for people.” — Van (39:49)

---

6. Extended Interview: Stacey Abrams on Voting Rights and Democracy

Segment Start: [46:42]

A. The State of U.S. Voting Rights

• Abrams outlines the historical erosion of the Voting Rights Act via key Supreme Court decisions (Shelby, Ruscio, Brnovich, Calais).
• She stresses how these cases increased the difficulty of proving, preventing, and remedying racial discrimination in voting.

Quote:

• “Instead of being able to detect racism where we can see it, Calais requires that you have to be a psychic…racism can be absolutely the reason you do anything.” — Stacey Abrams (50:09)

B. Voter Suppression Tactics and Their Impact

• Abrams breaks down three parts of voter suppression: registering/staying on the rolls, casting a ballot, and having that ballot counted.
• She discusses the intentional, multi-decade conservative strategy to whittle away voting protections.

C. The Role of Overwhelming the Polls and Accountability

• Abrams acknowledges the necessity of overwhelming voter turnout (“overwhelm the polls”) and of engaging in democracy not just at federal but also local and state level.
• Key point: Voting is only the start—organizing, holding officials accountable, and coalition-building are essential.

Quote:

• “Voting is the beginning. That’s like thinking you can show up at the NBA Finals and win but never had to go to practice.” — Stacey Abrams (61:58)

D. Voter ID Laws: Misdirection and Restriction

• Abrams clarifies that every state already requires voter ID; the debate is over how restrictive and exclusionary those requirements are.
• She uses Texas as an example: gun licenses count, but student IDs don’t.

Quote:

• “They’re not arguing about voter ID. They’re arguing about who gets to have the kind of ID they require.” — Abrams (77:12)

E. Hope, Tools for Resistance, and Black Women in Leadership

• Abrams shares how she leverages storytelling, coalition building, and persistent civic engagement to fight back.
• She argues that embracing Black women in leadership is not only moral but practical, as lived experience yields unique problem-solving ability.

Quote:

• “Black women are the most likely community to have figured out how to navigate the pathologies of American politics…If I have survived something, I probably know something about making sure you don’t get harmed by it too.” — Abrams (84:43)

F. Identity Politics: Reframing and Reclaiming

• Abrams defends “identity politics” as acknowledgment of lived expertise, not reductionism. She encourages voters to look for alignment of values, experiences, and priorities—not just surface factors.

---

7. Creative Ventures: Abrams as Author and Optioned Novels

Segment Start: [94:53]

• Abrams discusses her New York Times bestselling Avery Keene legal thriller series, her inspiration, and the emotional connection to her father’s support.
• Her novels, now optioned for screen production, serve as ways to teach, empower, and challenge cultural perspectives around policy and justice.
• Memorable Moment: Abrams recounts her father’s pride at her fiction (99:08), underlining the personal power of storytelling.

---

8. Personal Stories, Humor, and Reflections

Segment Start: [104:45]

• Van and Rachel close with relatable, light-hearted anecdotes including Van’s memories of skipping in childhood and cultural perceptions of masculinity.
• Rachel encourages Van to embrace his full self, culminating in a playful pledge to “recreate the David Banner skip” at their live show.
• The show ends on nostalgia and friendship, rounding off the episode on an uplifting, connected note.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “If you don’t animate and engage Black voters coming from the left, you’re not going to have political success in the long run.” — Van (13:09)
• “If you cannot gift trans people with visibility, humanity, and acceptance, could you at least gift them with silence?” — Van (27:50)
• “That shows trust. That shows respect. That is what I would think you would want in a partner.” — Rachel (36:15)
• “Instead of being able to detect racism where we can see it, Calais requires that you have to be a psychic…racism can be absolutely the reason you do anything.” — Stacey Abrams (50:09)
• “Voting is the beginning. That’s like thinking you can show up at the NBA Finals and win but never had to go to practice.” — Stacey Abrams (61:58)
• “They’re not arguing about voter ID. They’re arguing about who gets to have the kind of ID they require.” — Stacey Abrams (77:12)
• “Black women are the most likely community to have figured out how to navigate the pathologies of American politics…If I have survived something, I probably know something about making sure you don’t get harmed by it too.” — Abrams (84:43)

---

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Topic | |-------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 07:56 | Primary results, Michigan’s upset, Black voter analysis | | 17:10 | Cori Bush’s election loss, campaign finance, AIPAC discussion | | 21:45 | Sophie Cunningham/WNBA & trans athlete controversy | | 33:24 | A$AP Rocky on Rihanna: Quotes, viral reactions, relationships & authenticity | | 46:42 | Stacey Abrams interview: Voting rights history, current threats, and civic accountability | | 50:09 | The Calais Decision: Voting Rights Act dismantling | | 61:58 | Voting is just the beginning; practicing and defending democracy | | 77:12 | Voter ID debate: What the controversy is really about | | 84:43 | Black women in leadership, lived experience, why America needs to embrace them | | 94:53 | Abrams on fiction, screen adaptation, her father's pride | | 104:45 | Closing anecdotes: skipping, childhood, self-acceptance |

---

Episode Tone and Style

• Candid & Relatable: The hosts use humor and personal stories to make complex issues accessible.
• Unapologetic Advocacy: Both hosts and their guest are direct and passionate about racial justice and civic engagement.
• Conversational Depth: Even tough political dilemmas are unpacked in a way that invites listeners to reflect and act.
• Joyful Moments: Despite the seriousness, the episode celebrates Black culture, resilience, and self-acceptance.

---

For New Listeners

This episode provides a snapshot of the critical crossroads at which Black politics, personal identity, and American democracy stand today. Whether you’re interested in sharp political analysis, sports and culture commentary, or just good storytelling, this Higher Learning installment delivers with heart, humor, and insight. Stacey Abrams’ extended interview serves as both a sobering warning and an uplifting call to action: it’s up to us, repeatedly, to do the work of democracy, and to claim joy, power, and possibility—together.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Warriors. What is up? Power learning is on.

[B]

It's Ivan Lathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[A]

Rach, you are in Martha's Vineyard.

[B]

I'm in Martha's Vineyard. First time. First time here.

[A]

Can you give us. Can you take the camera or the thing? Can you give us a 360 view of the idyllic settings of Martha's Vineyard, please? Can you please let us see?

[B]

I mean, I thought about. I thought about doing this on the front porch, but one, we had an interview and I felt like it was unprofessional. Did you hear that ring camera. I don't know what that was. One is unprofessional. And two, you know, they're having a tick thing out here, so I was just nervous. Can you see this? Wait, can you see the beach there?

[A]

Nigga, fuck.

[B]

I'm like in a.

[A]

That's something. Like, that's somebody roof slash backyard. That shit look like Queens.

[B]

Wait right here. Can you see? Can you see that?

[A]

Rach, are you being for real right now? No way.

[B]

I can't see what you can see. I don't know. I have to fully turn my computer on. I don't have like a webcam on. So I fully turned my thing because I can see the ink. I can see Inkwell beach from here.

[A]

Inkwell Beach. Okay, cool. It's beautiful. It's beautiful.

[B]

It's beautiful. I'm in Oak Bluffs, so. But. But professional first. You know, I landed, I peeped the settings, got my setup, and I'm here to podcast.

[A]

Wow. We are so fucking with a little orange.

[B]

With a little orange wine.

[A]

A little orange wine. A little orange wine.

[B]

Little nigger wine.

[A]

Um, it's orange. I like orange wine. I like the way it tastes.

[B]

You would? Yeah. Cause you like it like you like lighter drinks. You like a little fruity drink. You don't like to take the. Taste the alcohol in your drink.

[A]

Not only do I not like to taste the alcohol, I don't understand it. Like, I always wanted to be. That's who I always wanted to be. I always wanted to be somebody. Cause I tried it for a little while. Just makers on the rocks. And I'm like, what?

[B]

When I was going, well, that's your problem. Bakers on the rocks.

[A]

Like, when I was doing the cowboy hat thing, which, by the way, the cowboy hat's coming back for the fall. Just letting y' all know. Let y' all know. Shout out to my dad. I was in my room and I saw my dad's Hat. I saw his lariat. I'm like, you know, the cowboy hats are part of me. Cowboy hat's gonna start being a winter thing. Buckets in the summer. Cowboy hats in the winter.

[B]

We got it. Spring, fall.

[A]

Spring.

[B]

Tbd.

[A]

Yeah, tbd. Springfall. Maybe. Maybe I go back for, you know, the actual hair.

[B]

Joggers.

[A]

Joggers. Joggers. Very true. So, yeah, Inkwell is a movie. Lawrence Tate, Joe Morton. Shout out to Joe Morton. Joe Morton just been working forever, man. Joe Morton just been in so much different shit. You know Joe Morton, he's the dad from Scandal. He's Michael Eric Dyson. Oh, Michael Eric Dyson.

[B]

Papa Pope. No, Papa Poe.

[A]

He's not Michael Eric Dyson. That's the guy. He's Neil. He's Miles Bennett Dyson.

[B]

I didn't know that was his real name. Papa. Papa Po.

[A]

Joe Morton is his real name. He's Miles Bennett Dyson. Miles Bennett Dyson in Terminator 2 Judgment Day is the scientist that advances Skynet to the point to where it goes too far. And then he. He dies in the assault on Skynet headquarters. Then all this gets undone in subsequent movies. So the die for nothing. Okay. Morse, chestnut. All these. Go watch the Inkwell. Everybody's in the movie. I love it. Shout out to Dwayne Martin. Mary Alice. Everybody's in it. Everybody's in the movie. Everybody. Everybody's in the movie. Go watch it. All right, now you had. You're there. Now we have Stacey Abrams on the podcast. We just did that interview. Takeaways from the interview.

[B]

I mean, Stacey Abrams is always what you expect her to be. She is brilliant, she's funny. There's such an ease about her that just relaxes you in what she says and what she stands for. It's just great. I'm mad I wasn't there.

[A]

You accused her of being.

[B]

Because I think this is the first time. I think this is the first time we've had her in studio. Right. Because we've had her a couple of days. Is this the first time we've had her in studio?

[A]

Yeah, first time we had her in studio.

[B]

Yes. I made a mistake. Much to my adulta embarrassment and to your. I mean, like, this was a gift for you. This was a gift.

[A]

Was it?

[B]

Oh, please.

[A]

Wouldn't say gift. I would say it's interesting.

[B]

Relish in this. You. This jumped off the porch.

[A]

Jumped off the porch. You jumped off the porch and you thought that she was Delta and she said she's not. She said that she's ak.

[B]

Well, at least. No, she didn't say I was about to go. Well, at least she's not. You go. She's an ak. She's me. Find me. But it's, it's. We're. We. We would love to have her.

[A]

Of course. Love to have her in the Delta Sigma situation. But is it before we move on and get into the podcast, is that. Has there been any mending offenses between the Deltas and the AKs, or are you still getting pressed out in the street?

[B]

Nobody's ever come up to me. Actually. That's not true.

[A]

I know that's not true.

[B]

But it's always been friendly. It's always been like, oh, I heard what you had to say. And I say it's all love. I'm just trying to look out for y'. All. I want us to all. We all represent D9. I want us to all be our best. This episode is brought to you by Quint. Ever feel like August is the Sunday of the summer? I mean, it's the perfect time to reset and especially with my wardrobe. And Quint is so helpful with that, with effortless, high quality essentials that are beautifully tailored and built to last. Okay, so some of my favorite quince pieces lately and that I would recommend that are just staples that you should have in your closet. Okay. The Italian leather Stiletto Mule. I'm obsessed with it. It's so comfortable. It has the perfect tail height. You can wear it with a pair of jeans with a nice linen pant. Even with the flowy dress. I mean, I've already worn it once to the theater. It was comfortable and just a classic touch to my outfit. Also, the organic cotton micro rib crew neck tee. I love a tee that feels a little classy too. It feels a little elevated and that's what you get in this tee. Plus it comes in multiple colors. You can dress it up, you can dress it down. I mean, it's really something that everybody should have in their closet. So upgrade your everyday. Go to quints.com learning for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com learning for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com learning for adults with Crohn's disease

[C]

or ulcerative colitis symptoms. Every choice matters. Tremphy offers self injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self inject Trimfya, proper training is required.

[B]

Tremphya is a prescription medicine used to

[C]

treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur before treatment.

[B]

Get checked for infections and tuberculosis.

[C]

Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu like symptoms or need a vaccine.

[B]

Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about tremphaya today.

[C]

Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit

[B]

tremphiradio.com

[A]

all right, let's get into the podcast. Donnie. Yeah. There were five states that held primary elections this week. Michigan, Missouri, Kansas, Virginia, and Washington. They offer an early snapshot of the political landscape ahead of the 2026 midterms. Former Representative Cori Bush failed to reclaim her Missouri congressional seat while Washington's moderate Democrat Mary Gluson Camp Perez advanced despite a challenge from the left. And in Michigan, they delivered, I think, the night's biggest story with progressive Democrat Abdul El Sayed defeating Representative Haley Stevens in the Democratic Senate primary. Now, Donnie, you are a Michigander. Okay? Who were you throwing your support behind, El Sayed or Haley Stevens? With APAC concerns, it would be El Sayed. I will say Haley Stevens has gone viral in the past few months with some entertaining videos of people making fun of her accent. But when it comes to platform, I would have to.

[B]

That was a factor for you, Dottie.

[A]

I mean, that's very likable. I will say that.

[B]

Do, Donnie, do it. Do it, do it. Do. It's not easy.

[A]

It's a white accent.

[B]

She said when they're talking about me, they're talking about you guys in Michigan. So that's you, Donnie. So do the accent.

[A]

Talking about Michiganders about that, that, give it to them. That, that fight, that Michigan fight. You're gonna, you know, we got baseball, we got football, we got a whole bunch of sports in the Midwest. Not bad. But no, for real, black people don't talk like that. So we'll start with that race. In that race. Look, look, Els. El Sayed is, he's one of those guys that's got it, you know, he is not quite on the mom Donnie level of it because he's a little bit more of a, like he came out there when he was giving his, his, his victory speech, his primary victory speech he came out there with his shit unbuttoned at the top. I'm like, God damn, this nigga kind of, you know, he kind of like, like he's like Abdul Suave a little bit. You know what I mean? Like he kind of had a whole thing going on. So Mamdani plays him more like a straight up politician. They're not quite the same. I'm comparing them because when you look at the political tradecraft that they are, that, that they operate with, he's good. He's good. He's very direct. He's able to take even a question that is about something that people think they have him hemmed in on, like his opposition to Israel, his opposition to aipac. And he's always able to reorient those questions back to the policies and the initiatives that he is running on. He's able to not say, I'm just against this. Not just say that, but also say, I'm against this. Because having said that, Stevens lopped him with black voters. And. Yeah, and do we think, do you think, does Donnie think, does anyone think that that is because of a disconnect between progressive candidates and black voters? Or do you just think that at this point, the, you know, everybody from the cbc, Jim Clyburn, everybody came out for Stevens. Does AIPAC have control over the cbc?

[B]

I think that that's what it is. When I saw Jim Clyburn standing behind her, it's the image of that, you know, for people who might not be as well versed in politics or might not understand. I mean, we talked to Stacey Abrams about this, but people vote. It's a popularity contest. And so if people may not say, hey, I'm not as well versed on this, or I don't know this, I trust this person or trust this organization that's behind it, so I'm going to vote for them. I would be curious as the breakdown of what the age was of black voters that supported Stevens versus El Sayed that I would be curious about. But I'm not surprised because I still think black voters vote for the establishment. So that's not shocking. I mean, Jim Clyburn is 80 something years old and he's traveling to Michigan. He's there because he knows his presence means something. And he's there because he knows that he is persuasive with votes. That's what he's there for. So that wasn't shocking.

[A]

I also think though, I mean, obviously black voters are as sophisticated as any voting bloc anywhere. So I think that if you are not connecting with them. There are probably very tangible reasons why. And this is something for El Sayed to really drill down on. And all of these progressive candidates, all these progressive candidates. The wing of the party in which I identify with is not going to be enough to say that either there's some outside interest that's influencing the race or to say that it's because of the dominance of the CBC or because these voters are older. It's up to you to get your feet on fire and go to places. I saw that Elsia did a little bit of this. He went to a couple churches where he talked to people. And when he talked to the people, they felt like they had a better connection to him. Don't think that you. That the black voting bloc is a voting bloc that you have to defeat. You have to engage them. Not that you're gonna get all of them right, but don't think that you have to win in spite of them. If you don't animate and engage black voters coming from the left, you're not going to have political success in the long run. Long term, you're not going to. So it is going to be a huge and incumbent upon him or anybody like this to go out and go talk to those people and give them a reason to vote for him. Like now. You can't. It's not like she's out of the race. We'll see what Clyburn and the rest of them do. It's not up to them anymore. It's up to Abdul El said to go out there and get those people to vote for him, engage those people and talk directly to them about their needs.

[B]

Was he not.

[A]

I'm saying is.

[B]

I'm saying because what I was reading is he was way more boots on the ground and tapped into the community with various voting sectors than she was. She, if anything, relied on all the money that she had that was coming into her campaign, all the support that she had for the establishment, and she actually was not as tapped in like he was. And still that the black people overwhelmingly voted for her. Which is why I say. And I'm not here to. Not to challenge smart or not smart. That's not what I'm doing. I'm more so saying. I think the presence of the establishment of a gem is pivotal when it comes to black voters. Like, that's somebody that they trust. That's why I'm curious. The age group.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not. I'm not disagreeing with you at all. What I'm saying is True. But fuck it now. Fuck it now, that's something. That's a question. But what I'm saying is I think it would be. And I don't think that he would do this or that any progressive should do this. Hopefully they wouldn't. I don't think that because I think everything you're saying is correct. Like establishment matters, politicians that have been around matter. We have the same type of seniority culture that we've discussed here on the podcast and stuff like that before. Now, though, you have to go with all of that data in your head and you have to go make a case to those people about how you're gonna serve them. Those people, our people, the people, how you're gonna serve them. You have to go into places that maybe were a little hesitant to you and say, this is what they're getting wrong. And winning in the primary gives you the opportunity to do that. Now you don't have to compete with somebody else now. All you have to do is show them the enemy. Show how you're going to beat that enemy, how you're going to like, bring freedoms and prosperity to where they are, meet them where they are. But you have to want it. And I think that what I'm starting to feel a little bit is progressives that are going, this is a group that we have to kind of defeat electorally and not engage electorally, might never get to where Haley Stevens got because I think those numbers were pretty far off. But you're going to have to get some of those people on your side to go and fuck winning the election. You have to serve them, you have to talk to them. You have to get like granular with their needs and wants. So. Yeah, that's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'll be interesting to see what if the party gets behind him because this is a really important race to win for them.

[A]

Yeah, it is. In a. A pre primary poll had it 67 to 34. Stevens for my. No, I was like, that we. Out of here at that point.

[B]

Yeah, I was like, for what?

[A]

But. And they say that pattern basically held on election night. Cori Bush.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Lost to Wesley Bell. Wasn't particularly close. Wasn't particularly close. No, it wasn't close. It was 59 to 37. Of course, it's Missouri's first district. We had Corey on. We obviously did not have Wesley Bell on. Any thoughts.

[B]

I mean, he had already beat her. He was the incumbent. We know how much money was behind him. We know who's behind supporting him. It's not shocking. You know, I'm not as tapped into Missouri. So the question is, as he has held that office, what has he done for the people? Do people feel like he has not served them accordingly? That's the question. It doesn't seem like they feel that way based on them voting. It's not like she's going up against some Trump backed MAGA person, she's going against an establishment Democrat. And I think obviously the people voting feel like he's had their back. And we talked about this in Texas. We talk about AIPAC here. It was also a point of an issue in a conversation for the Michigan race. We talk about it here. It's used as something to villainize progressives that are running for office. But when it comes to these places, it is, when it comes to these places, like when we were talking about Texas, the primary race there for the Senate, those voters aren't, don't care. I really don't think that they do like that. That's not a, that's not a deciding factor for them when it comes to it. So the fact that Wesley Bell is getting all this money from AIPAC and they're outspending Cori Bush in all these ways and it's because of AIPAC supporting them, they don't look at it the same way. It's not the deciding factor for them.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's definitely not the deciding factor for them. I, I think, you know, AIPAC for a lot of people is a political litmus test to the seriousness of the individual candidate. Right. It's no different than like the NRA if you, there's a set of policies and a set of associations that go along with being the NRA backed candidate. And when you see that, it's like, whatever, like we can continue to have deeper conversations about AIPAC and about how people feel like the American political establishment should operate when dealing with a foreign power. Okay, whatever. I also think that the way you run your campaign matters and how effective your campaign matters. Positive headlines in your campaign matter. Negative campaign. Negative headlines in your campaign matter. And so what we can't do moving forward is use AIPAC as a catch all every time somebody that we want to win does not win because then what will happen is that will release them from the need to run a great campaign to really do a lot of the work that they, that they should do. We have to understand. I'm just, I'm gonna leave it at that. We have to understand that like In a lot of these races across the country, AIPAC is going to be a gigantic hurdle for people to jump over. When you go and you look on the AIPAC website, which I did this morning, they talk directly about the fact that they want to fund and defeat candidates that don't have the AIPAC stamp of approval. This is what they want. They want as much. It's lobbying. Right. They want as much political power at the halls of Congress as possible. So they're going to spend a shit ton of money and they're incredibly well resourced. That doesn't mean that you don't have to run a great campaign, though. Doesn't mean that moving forward, of course, up against an APAC back candidate that you can just say, hey, I was up against the big bad machine and I lost. Mean that. Still got to go out, still got to do your thing. You still got to do shit in the right way. And that's that. That, that goes for everyone. But, yeah, so that's it. This existential battle between, I guess, the left and center flanks of the Democratic Party was the mission returns. There were some wins, there were some losses. It seems to be something that's conditional on where you are and what people care about. So.

[B]

Yeah, agreed.

[A]

Yeah. All right, Donnie. Sophie Cunningham. Yeah.

[B]

There's some WNBA news.

[A]

Indiana Fever guard Sophie Cunningham says she wants to move past the recent controversy surrounding her comments on transgender athletes and returned the conversation to basketball, calling the ongoing attention a, quote, distraction. Her initial comments regarding athletes came in an ESPN profile last month where she said, quote, I think that I am

[C]

here to extend love, but I also

[A]

think that with love is truth, being honest, and I want to protect young girls in a locker room or young girls in sport who shouldn't have to go against biological men.

[B]

Who do you think talked to her?

[A]

Talk to Sophie Khan?

[B]

Who do you think? Yes, who do you think? For Sophie Cunningham to have this, this, this comment that she made in an interview, then to wear it proudly, be taking pictures with her fans for this statement, not just because she plays basketball and they like her as an athlete, they're taking pictures with her holding up posters based off of the comments that she said she has played into it, that means for her to have to say that it's now a distraction when she was relishing in it and for her to set to focus on the game and not the politics of it, because that's what she was playing into. Who do you think said something to her? Cause somebody did.

[A]

Yeah. I have no clue. I mean, they Definitely. She exists in a league where they kind of don't play that shit. Like, they don't.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

They don't play that shit like in these other leagues that we support. You can go out there and be like, yo, man, I'm maga. Lock all the niggas up. And then you get a black guy that goes, that's my brother. We in the same locker room together. We go to war together. We get it out the mud together. 2 a days, August in the heat together. That's my brother. And you like, God damn. But it don't seem like they play that in the. In the wnba, right? It don't seem like they, like, they into that. Like that. That's. That's the. That's doesn't seem like they. That they have a different social standard. It seems like set over there. I don't know.

[B]

I mean, yeah, it's a majority black, big LGBTQ plus community. They've been politically outspoken. It's. It's about being inclusive. It's about being equal. And her comments and her alignment are direct. The direct opposite of that. Her making those statements contradict the things that they stand for. I personally think when Caitlin Clark got asked that question about what she thought, and then she basically, you know, responds that this isn't what they talk about in the locker room. This isn't what the game is about. Basically a wordy statement that meant no comment. People attacked her. And so I think. And that is a no, no. Remember, remember, Sophie's the enforcer. She is the enforcer for Caitlyn. So if Caitlyn is now getting attacked and it's at the hands of comments and a stance that Sophie has, then I think that is why I might have called stress in the locker room. It might have come from Caitlin directly, who knows? But I think that is why it's like, okay, you need to quiet it down, because this is now, you know, we already know. Caitlyn is used in so many different ways or talked about in different ways. I think that is something. They were like, you got to shut that down. That's really what I think happened.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And good.

[A]

Well, you know, it's funny, though, she said talking about basketball, that's bad for her, because if we go to talking about basketball, we gonna talk about Asia, Olivia, we gonna talk about Caitlin, we gonna talk about Brianna, we gonna talk about Angel, Reese, we gonna talk about a lot of people. But if we go back to talking about basketball, we ain't talking about Sophie Cunningham. The only reason, the only reason why? Look, she one of the best in the world. Okay? So let me say that real quick. Let me just be honest. She wanted the best in the world. She in the wnba. She wanted the best in the world. She won the best in the world. That's. That's that. That she one of the best in the world. But if we start talk.

[B]

But we're not in the league.

[A]

But no, she wanted the best in the world. You in the wnba, you want the best.

[B]

I said not in the league.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, but like, we. We gonna be talking. We gonna be talking about a lot of people. We're not gonna be talking about Sophie Cunningham. So the way that we gonna be talking about Sophie Cunningham is for Sophie Cunningham to be talking about trans people. That's the only way that she's gonna be ready. Let me tell you something else, man. Look, Jamel Hill had a take on this that is phenomenal. Like, this has, like, brought this issue back. Jamel said something, and I'm paraphrasing, and she goes. She listed the amount of laws that were made across the country banning trans people in sports. She listed all the different legislation that's been passed and all the different. The Trump victory and stuff. And she goes, you guys won. She goes, you guys won this. You won. This, like, this situation. This. The ability to be an asshole or to section off trans people. You guys won. You won the battle. You won the battle. She's right. This now is this malicious and vicious spiking of the football specifically for political points and to define yourself as politically respectable to a certain type of person. If you cannot gift trans people at this point, if you cannot gift them with visibility, humanity, and acceptance, could you at least gift them with silence? Could you at least shut the fuck up about them? Like, could you just at least leave them the fuck alone? Who the fuck is not? 2021, 2022, 2023. You guys are doing your victory lap on this shit, fucking up the country. You mean to tell me that it's like, there are wars happening in the Middle East, Food prices are crazy. Like, the environment is in the shitter. We can't eat lettuce without crap in our pants. All of this stuff. And you still picking on these people after all of this time? Shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. Find something else. You know what this reminds me of? This reminds me of back in the day when I used to, like, watch Fox News. I used to watch Fox News. Just watch Fox News and you will watch Fox News, and it would be like, what was going on around the world. Middle east and stuff like that. And then every now and again on Fox News, it would be like this terrible fucking headline. It would be like, 67% of black unwed mothers. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'd be like, what the fuck do they care about? They don't give a fuck about this. No one is going to come on here and give anything that is prescriptive or nutritious about any issue that they think is plaguing the black community. But what they do want is, is a cultural mascot for what they think American undesirability is. And that is what is happening right now. And because I didn't appreciate it when it was done to me, I'm not going to do it to somebody else. Particularly what people are using the entire community, a vulnerable community to get off their fucking bullshit narratives. And I'm like, just like, sophie, you want to, like, just show some ass or something? Do it the right way. Like, it's. I'm just saying, like, that. That's. That's a harmless way. Like, do it. You know, do it. Do it the right way. Like, like, go cop a celebrity relationship. Leave these people the fuck alone, man.

[B]

Well, the point is it doesn't. It doesn't mean anything to them. Right? It's under the guise as if they care, but the reality is they don't. It's all about politicizing it. They don't care about the actual individuals involved. It's all this conversation about, oh, it's making the sport unsafe. Unsafe? Well, it's like, unsafe to who? You know, making one sport unsafe.

[A]

It's not happening.

[B]

It's. But that's what I was about to say. That's what I was about to say.

[A]

Yeah, coming up. Sorry.

[B]

It's not an actual. It's not even an actual issue. So it's a moot argument. You know, you've got the head of the ncaa, it's testifying in front of Congress saying there. There are maybe 10, 10 trans athletes that, like, it's not a real threat. It's not a real issue. There's nobody who is like, you're talking about something that's not a thing because you're not focused on what is actually happening. Caring about individuals. Because if that's the case, then where was that care? Women's sports have existed for a long time. You're putting all of this political energy behind trans participation, and you're not putting it against pay equity facilities, media rights, title 9 enforcement. If you care about women. Why are we not caring about all the things that impact women? You're not, because you actually don't care. It reminds me of like the abortion arguments. It's the fetus, it's the child, it's the child. I care about children. Child is born, you don't give a fuck about the situation for that child. You don't care what type of way that they grow up. You don't care about rights that impact the people who maybe were making a decision because they didn't feel like that they were ready to have children. So it's like you don't care what happens to the child once they're there. You are just using this as a religious, political thing and not caring about the people who are actually impacted by this. Because it's not about that. It's about you and you getting off on politicizing the whole thing. And that's, that's, that's the frustrating part about all of it. Like, Sophie Cunningham doesn't even know what she's talking about.

[A]

If you're going to talk about a group of people, speak life into them. Talk about what they're going through, talk about what they're gotta care what they've been through. Talk about what's happening to them now. Talk about what it must be like to live in this oppression, like oppression, oppressive society where you're demonized for the way that you were born. You know, like all the scoring of like you said, all, everything you said, cheap, political. It's just like, whatever, man. Sophie. The fuck outta here, man.

[B]

Seriously.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods. Who has your back to school eats sorted? Wow. We're going back to school already. They've got your fast and easy breakfast covered with frozen waffles and pancakes. Lunch boxes are looking tasty with organic seedless grapes and baby carrots and essentials like cheese sticks. Then for dinner, you can build your own meal. Choose from a variety of entrees like chicken Scalpini and two sides. And it's all good too. Whole Foods has banned more than 300 food ingredients. Store wide shop back to school must haves at Whole Foods Market in store or online.

[C]

Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck and the person who drives it, well, that's a Chevy person.

[A]

You probably know one. Your buddy, your son, sister.

[C]

Ones who always show up. They're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something and maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet together. Let's drive.

[A]

Visit chevy.com trucks to explore the lineup. This is to the forefront. It's tough. All right. What else?

[C]

Donnie, Come on. Keep.

[A]

Keep it coming.

[C]

All right.

[A]

Asap. Rocky. Oh. He sat down with Jason Lee on the Jason Lee show for a wide ranging interview that had the Internet abuzz. He talked about his upbringing in Harlem, the experiences that shaped him and his relationship with Rihanna. Let's hear a little bit. One thing I could say about my woman that people don't know. She a real ass, bro. Facts. She not one of these Hollywood mother, like, you know, newbies or whatever the case is. No, no shade to nobody. She really is a strong black woman. And she held me down even when I was at my lowest. How do you go from being a nympho to being locked in with one person building a family out the streets? It wasn't really no other broad that could match me that I felt like. This ain't got nothing to do with her accolades and her money. The truth of the matter is, when my dad died, she was there for me. When I got locked up in Sweden, she was there for me. When the relly happened, she was there for me. Every time I'm at my lowest and darkest place. Rather if we just friends platonically or we in a couple relationship. She always there for me, bro. Genuinely. My first album went number one. My dad died on Christmas. I was on my bathroom floor in Paris crying. She called me for some reason to congratulate me. In Paris. We both in Paris. I didn't know she was in. She didn't know I was in Paris. And I told her, like, I'm down. I feel like this. I feel like that, bro. Shorty rushed to my. I don't even know how Rihanna got the key to my room. I stopped answering my phone, all that. She walked right in. Yo, you good? You know, like, talk to me. All this other. That really was my friend, bro. That's really my, bro. Like, for real. That. That's. That's real to me. Heartfelt.

[B]

It sounds heartfelt, doesn't it? Yeah, you would think. How could one have an issue with that? And he goes on in the interview, he talks quite a bit. Even releases that spills. Says he's gonna get in trouble for it. That Rihanna's working on music. Goes on to talk about how much he respects her. Goes on to talk about how not being jealous of her success because he's so proud of her and that's her. He talks about, like, how great she is and, you know, like, you know, he says, matching me, but more so in like, she's so like stands. She's so magnificent on her own is kind of what he's saying. And I watched the interview and the way he talked about her and I just loved it. And I saw a lot of people speak in that same way, but then I saw another side of it. Oh, and we gotta talk about this because this is so disappointing to me. I saw a lot of conversation, one that's like, oh, I'm side eyeing asap. Oh, Rihanna better watch out. Or why is it that when a man talks about how much he loves a woman, it's always defined as because she held him down when he was low? Rather than where's the story about when a woman was low and a man held her down? Guys, if that's what you took away from that, first off, I encourage you to listen to the whole thing. Second, if that's what you took away from that, you got to do some work on yourself. Because one is the interview. It's almost a two hour interview and only a section of it is talking about Rihanna. You have no idea the intricacies of their relationship. And he's telling, he's answering a question from his perspective about his love for her. You have. No, we don't. You don't know. Rihanna's not sitting there talking about how he has held her down, how he has been there for her. You absolutely have no idea. And in a way that a woman needs to be held down might not be in the same way that a man needs to be held down. And what I took from that when I heard that was all I saw was especially when he talks about the story of losing his father, is that he cut everybody off. She found her way to him because they were friends first. That's the other thing too. This is a friends to lovers situation, which to me is ideal to build a friendship, to have that trust, that comfortability. And then it turned into something else is ideal. But what I heard from that is that he was. She says, are you good? And he felt comfortable, safe to be vulnerable with her, to relax with her, to show emotion. He had cut everybody off and with her he let his guard down. That shows trust. That shows respect. That is what I would think you would want in a partner. Somebody who can be themselves, can have a low moment in front of you and doesn't feel like they have to be hard or play into an image or perform. They can just completely let go. That's love. And so good for her. Then good for them that they have this beautiful relationship. Where she can be there when he's low because he feels open enough with her to show that side of him. That is what I took from that. That's what I want. And I. And I know that I would. I would know that if I'm doing that for you, there's reciprocity. And you can do that same thing for me when I need you. Like that. Like that. I just. It bothered me when I saw that. At first, I was like, oh, I'm not even going to talk about this. And then when I saw that turn, I said, we got to have a conversation. Like, this is why. In the same way we kind of talked about this with Diara. In the same way. There are certain ways that women want to be safe. So do men. And when you have conversations that contradict what he was expressing or contradict what I'm saying, it doesn't allow that beautiful moment, those beautiful moments where you can strip everything down and be there for each other, like a partner may need for you to be. We gotta let go of some of this stuff. I don't know what y' all were expecting. Like, what do y' all want? What was he supposed to say? I love her because she's smart and she's successful, and she's this, like. He gave real life examples that were rooted in something that meant something to him. That's. I love that.

[A]

So I say a couple of things. Number one, everything you just said is right, obviously, but just to just in a more just broad way. I don't want to be disrespectful to anyone, but if you're giving a side eye too much, your eyes are probably stuck that way. So I remember when I was a kid and one of the elders would see somebody, like, rolling their eyes. The elders would do two things. One, they would say, hey, roll your eyes at me again, I'm gonna slap them in the back of your head. Okay, that was always a great one. We're gonna smack them eyes in the back of your head. Number two, they would be like, hey, you roll your eyes enough, your face gonna get stuck like that. You get stuck that way. I'm telling you guys right now, a lot of my side eye givers. Your eyes are stuck like that. Y' all can't help but give the side eye to everything that y' all see. That side eye is a manifestation of this deep cynicism that you have and this pedantic hyper focus on. Let's find the bad everywhere that we possibly can asap. Rocky is a Guy that comes from his neighborhood, he's rough around the edges. He's been smoothed out in other ways, but he's rough around the edges in some ways, and some ways those edges is never going to get smoothed out. You can put that brother in Prada. You can put him in. I don't even know all the brands, whatever, Like Givenchy, whatever. You can put him in all the brands. But at the core of him, there's a lot of living that went into that. So when he is talking about that moment where she comes in and she shows up for him, he's talking about something that not very many people in his life have done for him. And that is more meaningful than her being the baddest chick in the world. That is more meaningful than her being a billionaire or her being. He didn't even say the mother thing, which is what I was like. Like, once I. Cause, you know, a lot of guys, once I saw her with my kids, I was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? It's like. It's like I didn't feel better. Then I saw the way she looked out for my kids. I was like, boom. I understand even what they mean when they say that. I get it. I understand that. I've been in. Seen the situations. But what I'm saying, what he said was that, like, there is something deeper with our bond than anything that has to do with anything that is celebrity or like, whatever. It's not the first time I heard Umbrella that I fell in love with Rihanna. We had real moments that define us, and I think that's something beautiful to say. Also, this for. For the people that think it's something beautiful. This don't mean that these people not gonna have relationship problems or not gonna be in the middle.

[B]

He talks about it.

[A]

Okay. That don't mean that. So how about. This is what is meaningful to asap. Rocky is what is meaningful to Rihanna. I just saw them dancing on each other in the condument day situation. It seems to be working. Can we take five seconds to be happy? That's all. Be happy, wise happy times. And then when the sad times come, we'll be sad then. But God damn it.

[B]

I think that's part of the. I think that's part of the reason he went ahead and said she's working on an album because, you know, people be like, get off of her. Let her. Let her get. She needs to be in the studio. I think that's part of the reason he was like, I'm just gonna let y' all know she's working on something too. So y' all always on me for. Because that people. People revere men and women just revere Rihanna in such a way. And if you really do, then be happy and like what they have. Like I said, for me, that's ideal look.

[A]

It is what it like shout out to them. Good interview. Well conducted interview.

[B]

It was a really good interview. Jason. Jason. That was a great interview.

[A]

Yeah, Jason doing Jason do his thing. But like, can like, look Rihanna and ASAP seem to be happy. My twin asap. They seem to be happy. Can we just be happy with them for one second? Can we be just everybody? How about this? Everyone, all my side eyes. I know you side eye your eyes. Like I said, your eyes are stuck that way. That's cool. But just I release you to feel good about something in the moment and it's okay. Just cause bad follows it doesn't mean that the good never existed. I think that's what people are dealing with right now. See, back in the day, we never had to see somebody's fall off. You pop up. You in all the movies in 19 fucking 88. And then we don't realize that we ain't seen you for a while until like 2001. We like, wait, what the fuck? Cause we go back and we watch the movies. Like, what happened to him? Like, we don't do to what happened to him anymore because we watch you on every stage legitimately. Every album drops and it sells less than the one before, and we are in it. Aw, shit, man. This shit right here only did 175,000 in the first week. This ain't like nuke the streets two that did 575. We watched incrementally. This shit happened like you like, you know, And I think now we go, damn, we should have never celebrated when shit was going good. Cause now shit just gonna go bad. I'm not saying it's gonna go bad for these two crazy kids, but I'm just saying it's okay to live in the moment of good and happy. It's not gonna bite you in the ass. That's all I'm saying, man. You know? Come on, man. Rihanna and Rocky, bro. Come on, man. They got kids, you know, I don't know. Okay, okay, guys, I really do not want you guys to go anywhere. We have a f interview with Stacey Abrams. We talk about voting rights. We talk about historical fucking disenfranchisement of black people and other people. We talk about her career. Evening Buyer's remorse. Buy a new car. I'll be moving in. Let's get started.

[B]

Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana.

[C]

You what?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Great price.

[C]

I even have seven days to love

[B]

it or return it.

[A]

So there's no. No. No buyer's remorse.

[B]

More like buyers rejoice.

[A]

I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it.

[B]

Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply.

[C]

See our 7 day return [e-mail] this

[B]

episode is brought to you by SoFi, the All in One Finance app. To bank, borrow and invest. Say goodbye to account fees and give your bank balance a glow up with the SOFI High Yield Savings savings account.

[C]

Get over 8 times the national average

[B]

savings rate and an epic welcome bonus

[C]

when you sign up with eligible direct deposit.

[B]

Sign [e-mail] Spotify SoFi checking and savings offered through SoFi Bank.

[C]

NA member FDIC terms apply

[A]

here. As a novelist, all on the other side of this. Okay, guys, we are like so happy. I don't even have the right words to say. So thrilled. Blessed to have Stacey Abrams joining us today. They gave us. We always get these 1 sheets of ways to describe people and it's difficult to do it with. Stacy, New York Times best selling author, entrepreneur, producer, political leader and activist. Do you feel like that's an appropriate entire summation of what it is that you do?

[C]

I think it is a very nice thing and I've seen much worse descriptions of me, so I'm gonna go with the one you're using.

[A]

Awesome. Okay, so there's a lot going on. There's a lot you have going on. So I wanna jump right into it. You have been really. A lot of people argue, rightly so, that the Democrats have you to thank for Georgia in 2020, like for a lot of the political inroads that have been made, getting the vote out, like overcoming some of the structural obstacles that the right poses as far as people getting their vote and accessing their vote. That a lot of your work with your organization has been responsible for some wins that we've had there. So I want to start off by asking you kind of a broad question to someone who's politically illiterate. How would you describe what happened as a result of the Calais decision?

[C]

Okay, so I'd like to start with why we needed the Voting Rights act. Because for a lot of people this feels like normative. But if you were born after 1980, you were born with the Voting Rights act not only being in effect, but being more a sort of a, just a factor of your life. You weren't part of making it so, and you weren't part of defending it against death. So there was this middle ground where the Voting Rights act was great and the Voting Rights act existed because the 15th Amendment to the U.S. constitution for the first time said that you could not use race as a pretext for denying people the right to vote. And the south ignored it. So that's Jim Crow. And the Voting Rights act then in 1965 said, no, we meant everyone had the right to vote irrespective of their race, and we're going to make you do it. And so it was race and color. And that's how we, we end up expanding it in 1975. But the voting Rights act really said that you have to not just say people can vote, you've got to protect it and you've got to forestall any of the impediments that would make it impossible. Voter suppression has three parts. Can you register and stay on the rolls? Can you cast a ballot? And does that ballot get counted? So the Voting Rights act said, you can't make rules in these states that make any of those three things impossible. Okay, so what we saw happen with Calais was the end result of what has been a 60 year battle to make the 15th amendment not apply to black and brown people. And the biggest piece started in 2013 with the Shelby decision. That's the decision that said you don't have Section five. Section five was the, the part of the law that said, we know there are certain states that when they are told nobody's watching, they do mean things. So we're gonna. It used to be called pre clearance. Well, they got rid of pre clearance because John Roberts said, there's no more racism, so you don't need pre clearance anymore. And how do we know there's no more racism? Barack Obama got elected and so that was the decision called Shelby. Then the second decision was called the Ruscio decision. Ruscio said, well, we don't like gerrymandering unless it's partisan, you can't do it to get rid of black and brown voters. But if it's partisan, it's fine. Which was completely bollocks because 60% of black people live in the south and we know that race is the strongest predictor of political leanings. So when they said, oh, we're just going to do partisan voting, what they were saying is, we know black people vote Democratic, so we're going to say that you can just pretend it's about Republicans and stop them from voting anyway. So that's Russia. Then you had the Branovich decision that came out of Arizona. Branovich was, well, we can't blatantly be racist, but if we can do it subtly, will you let us? And that was because they were attacking Latino and Native American voters in the West. And the Branovich decision from the Supreme Court said, well, you know, let's make the standard higher. They have to prove that you really, really meant to be racist. It wasn't just accidental. It wasn't. You just tripped into racism. So that those are the three cases. And then you get Calais. And what Calais said was, nah, we don't care about racism anymore. In fact, what we're going to make the standard is instead of being able to detect racism where we can see it when it happens, you've got to be a psychic and prove that they thought about racism before they did it. So instead of being a detective, Calais requires that you have to be a psychic, which I don't know if you've been practicing, but I haven't built my psychic skills. So what that means for the people who are wondering now, from now on, racism can be absolutely the reason you do anything. And the reason Calais was so devastating was not that it happened just now. It was that it built on an intention of basically erasing the viability of the 15th Amendment. They're trying their best to make certain that people they don't like cannot cast a ballot, cannot register, cast a ballot, or have that ballot be counted.

[A]

Okay, so when I hear all of that, it seems incremental, but it seems incredibly intentional and functional over a long period of time.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Who was watching the gate?

[C]

Okay, so this started with a guy named Lewis Powell that most people don't know. Lewis Powell in the 1970s. I would give him the credit for being the architect, or at least the person who did the first round of building plans. But they've been at this for a while. Barry Goldwater didn't like, certainly. Yeah. So this has been a conservative intention from the beginning. Because you've got to remember when Jim Crow fell, that meant that if you wanted to win elections, you had to compete now across a range of identities. When people get mad about identity politics, they're not mad about identity. They're mad about which identities they have to speak to. They're fine talking to farmers. They're okay when they have to acknowledge that women vote, at least until recently. We can get into that if you want, but it's the identity of people of color because those were voting blocks that could change the outcome of elections. Conservatives have a very visceral reaction to that being a resonant block of voters. And so it's been largely a conservative enterprise. They have been very consistent. The Heritage foundation has never wavered in its dismissal of the Voting Rights Act. And John Roberts, the US Supreme Court chief justice, came of age under William Rehnquist, the former U.S. supreme Court chief justice, who got his start in politics by being the architect of voter suppression in Arizona because he created a version of the Spanish language poll tax. And it was so aggressive and so effective that we got the 1975 reauthorization of the Voting Rights act to undo what William Rehnquist did before Republicans made him a Supreme Court justice.

[B]

So if I'm listening to all of this, which you just have such a way of laying it all out that makes it make so much sense breaking it down. If I'm listening to this, I'm wondering, with what's left of the Voting Rights act, what protections do we have left?

[C]

We have very few for now. And that's one of the reasons I think it's important for us to understand the arc of history. The 15th amendment was necessary because the Constitution does not include a right to vote. We say that, but when you read it, it doesn't what the Constitution says, it says that states control the elections, and it then gives a list of people who cannot be precluded from voting based on who they are. So the 15th amendment said that you couldn't use race and color. The 19th amendment said you couldn't stop women, and the 26th amendment said you couldn't stop anyone over the age of 18. So most of our Constitution says who you can't stop, but it doesn't cover, for example, ex offenders, people in prison.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So those are all choices that get made. So the thing for us to remember is they've done this before and we've won before. So there's the longitudinal passion that we have to have. And I think Van, that was part of your question. Part of what we've got to do is figure out what they do wrong and re engineer it. And a lot of the work that I get credit for in Georgia wasn't new. It was just I went about it in a different way. But I also linked arms with other organizations that had been doing the work. I was just loud and really good at begging for money. So we were able to expand it, and I held positions of power. I was in the state legislature. I ran a nonprofit. I ran my mouth. I did a lot to make it manifest. And despite how harmful this moment is, we can do it again. In the short term, we have to overwhelm the polls. We have to show up in such force that their attempts to mitigate our voices, it may not be completely vitiated, we may not be able to completely stop it, but we can make it harder. And that's what we did in Georgia. But then we start electing people, and we demand that they talk about voting rights and that they make voting rights a central pillar, because voting rights is not a nice to have. It is the central pillar of democracy. You can't get power if you don't have a voice. And so our project has to be the short term, showing up in elections, not just at the federal level, but at the state and local level. But it also has to be, how do we change who is in office and make them work harder to make sure that we can show up?

[A]

So I want to talk about voter id. I want to talk about a couple other things before we get into. I also want to talk about, you know, some of the stuff you're doing, your book and being optioned and all of that stuff. It's very exciting. But before we get into that, I want to ask a question. I want to be kind of pointed as I ask. So let's say that I'm somewhere and I'm disillusioned, and I'm hearing Stacey Abrams or Kamala Harris or someone saying that the only way for us to. And I agree, the only way for us to beat back some of these structural changes is to overwhelm the polls. I guess the question I'm asking for the dude in the barbershop that's going, well, who was stopping all of this from happening? It seems like the assault on Bali Autonomy, which was a Heritage foundation principle they organized around it, raised billions of dollars, changed the definition of what it meant to be a conservative politician to one that was almost exclusively pro life over the course of 50 some odd years, then waited for the right moment, and then they struck and they did the same thing with voting rights. How did it happen? Like, are we going to overwhelm the polls and then put a bunch of people in power, then 30 years from now, 10 years from now, five years from now, have to overwhelm the polls every single time? Is there no responsibility to the people that have been in power to protect these rights that have been enshrined on our behalf?

[C]

Absolutely. So. So let's do it in two parts. So first part is what you just laid out about who the opposition is. And we often hear these days about authoritarianism versus democracy. So very quickly, you know, as a nation, we've always had this sort of shared lexicon of what we want. We call it a more perfect union. We've always had the same destination. We've always been heading towards this more perfect union. We just disagreed about how we were going to get there. So Democrats used Apple Maps, Republicans were using Google Maps, Independents use Waze, and they like crash into people's houses, you know. But we all were on the same path. We were all going towards this place. But what the Heritage foundation, what this conservative enterprise has had in mind for the last 60 years has been like, eh, we don't really like democracy, we like authoritarianism. Instead of us using democracy as the path, we're now completely differing on the destination. So authoritarianism has three goals. Number one, people are like, what is authoritarianism? Ignore everything you hear from political scientists. One, it is about seizing power from people. Two, it's about hoarding that power for the benefit of, of a small group of people. Call it tech bros, oligarchs, the right wing, whatever you want, but it's, it's seizing, or the Trump family, but it's seizing power and, and hoarding it in a small groups of people. And then third, it's about never being accountable for what you do with that power. It's why you don't like elections, because they can get rid of you. It's why you don't like laws, because they can put you in jail. It's why they try to create a $1.8 billion slush fund so there's no accountability. So that's authoritarian. Democracy is the only antidote we have because democracy is about how do you share power, how do you then leverage that power for the benefit of others and then how do you get held accountable for that power? For a very long time we were arguing over which map. We were forgetting to argue about where we were headed. And so that's why you've ended up with a lot of politicians who have not been delivering. Because we weren't having the same conversation. We were, we were like, oh, we're all going the same way and we can negotiate how we get there.

[A]

There was a trust.

[C]

There was a trust, but there was also a naivete. Like I've been reading, what we call Project 2025 is actually something called the Mandate for Leadership. The Heritage foundation has been putting it out since 1980. I'm a big old nerd. So when I was in College in 1992, I helped. I worked on Bill Clinton's campaign. And then I was reading something in the New York Times the following year about the Mandate for Leadership and this paperwork, this booklet that this group called the Heritage foundation put out. So I asked for a copy. You could put it in the mail. You could mail them a request for a copy and they send it to you back when we used stamps and stuff. And so I have been reading the Mandate for Leadership. It comes out every four years and has come out every four years since Reagan got elected. They have never wavered in how much they dislike the. The destination. They've been very clear. But what they realized is that if they shifted it and called it something nice but treated it as authoritarianism, they could get what they wanted. Those of us who still wanted democracy just presumed that everyone had the same intention and we were going to get around to it eventually. And that gets to the crux of your question. I do not tell people to vote because voting is a good thing to do. That's romantic. I vote because I grew up black in Mississippi, because I came of age black in Georgia, and I saw people who voted consistently got more stuff that the people who got elected, who looked like the communities that I was from, who had the same experiences, were more likely to do something about it. It wasn't perfect, but it was more likely. I vote because it's the most practical response I can think of to poverty, injustice, to sexism, to all of the isms. I vote because I need people who get to share my power to speak up on my behalf. Number two, I believe that we have the responsibility to think about those who don't vote. You are not wrong if you're sitting in the barbershop saying, I keep electing people. They didn't do anything because we treat voting as the beginning and the end. Voting is the beginning. That's like thinking that you can show up at the NBA Finals and win, but never had to go to practice, never have to show up for games, never had to lose. You have to lose. Sometimes you don't get everything you want in a democracy. You have to practice democracy over and over again because other people are practicing, too. If you're the Knicks versus the spurs, that's like assuming that because the Knicks won, the spurs are never going to play again.

[A]

Right?

[C]

They're out there practicing right now because they want their title back. And so we have to think of politics like that. We have to Think of voting like that. It is not just about overwhelming the polls that day. It's about then showing up and saying, did you do what I asked you to do and not wait two to four years to ask the question, but ask the question. Every time they show up, we show up. And so a lot of my work is about not just how do we vote, but what do we do with that shared power to make sure they're leveraging it for the benefit of others. And when they don't, then we do the accountability part that I mentioned, which is we vote them out of office and vote new people in.

[B]

And how do you look? Because it's. I can only imagine how hard it is with there being so much on social media, so many people have microphones, so many platforms where you're having to constantly combat misinformation that's out there. And I guess I'm wondering how do you. Or maybe what's the strategy of continuing keeping the energy going to like it's one thing if there's a big, you know, I'm from Texas, so obviously huge primary that happened in March, it's easy to get people into it. People are doing talking about identity politics. There are very well known politicians involved. And so people run to the polls and they vote. But then in some of those off elections or down ballot elections, how do you continue to get people, people. And I guess I'll frame this in with the decision in Calais because when you see a decision like that and then you see immediately in Louisiana where there was a primary already underway and they suspended it, so you've already exercised your right. And then you see in Alabama where a court had already ruled that you can't use that map and then that then it becomes available to be used again. How do you defeat that kind of stuff? Like I did exactly what you told me to do. I went, I voted, they told me, oh, they're throwing it out because they're going to redraw the maps their way. Like how do so. And I don't even know if you know the answer to this, but I guess the whole thing I'm trying to say is to keep it going, to keep that energy there, to encourage people to realize how important it is.

[C]

One of the reasons I created what I call the 10 Steps campaign and that's one of the things that's not quite on my resume all the time, but it's a big part of my life right now. The 10 Steps campaign is about exactly that. So there are 10 things that people do to take our power. And right now, it's an authoritarian regime trying to seize our power, hoard it for others, and not be held accountable. So there are 10 things they do, but there are 10 things we know. If we do consistently, we win. We get what we need. We have to commit ourselves to knowing what we are entitled to. We have to share what we know. So misinformation works because we have siloed ourselves from information. This podcast, higher Learning podcast, is one of the ways you defeat authoritarianism, but it's also one of the ways you defend and enliven democracy. Because when people hear that there's possibility, when they hear about the stories of the places where it's worked, they are more willing to actually keep showing up. You have to organize and mobilize, which sound like big, boring things to do, but organizing. I'm from the church, you're from Louisiana, you're from Texas. I'm from Mississippi. We know that where two or more gathered, you have church, you have three, you have a choir, you have five, you got an usher board. So we know organizing doesn't take that much. And then we mobilize. And mobilizing is also not that big a deal, because sometimes it's showing up at the school board meeting every month for three months because you know they're not treating your children well and that they haven't bought the books that they said they were going to buy with the taxes that you paid. When we keep showing up at that school board meeting, they get tired of us because they realize we're going to keep showing up until their election. And one of those people who's showing up of that five might go for that seat. And so part of the responsibility is not just casting the ballot with excitement. It's remembering that now that you've got that power, you got to use it regularly. And it's not exciting, it is not interesting. I went to city council meetings and county commission meetings as a college student. I told you I was really boring. I was very much of a nerd. But I went because my older sister went to Agnes Scott College, which in Decatur, Georgia. Beautiful campus, beatific. They've got bookstores and coffee shops nearby. I went to Spelman, love Spelman. But outside of Spelman, College was a public housing authority, one of the oldest public housing buildings in the state, and three liquor stores. And my question was, why did she get bookstores? I got liquor stores. And when I asked the question, I was told, it's city council zoning. So I started going to zoning committee Meetings. So part of our job is that, yes, we may elect people to speak for us, but we need to make sure we're showing up to tell them what to say. And when we don't show up to tell them what to say, they will say what they want because they're saying what it takes to stay in office. And so part of our responsibility, and Rachel, I appreciate you raising the question, is that it's not the exciting parts, it's the hard, consistent parts. And that's why I use the example of sports. There is not a person who follows sports who thinks you can just wake up and win. We know you've got to go at it again and again and again and that you're going to lose sometimes and win sometimes. You're going to get injured, something's going to happen, but you do it anyway because the goal is that ultimate victory. Democracy has to feel that way because democracy is just about what gets delivered for us. It is not about this philosophical notion of, you know, geopolitical organization. It is about the practical question of, do I get what I need to live the life I deserve and take care of the people that I love? That's what we should be working towards.

[A]

Do you know what I think, rather unintelligently, is the greatest impediment to that? Is the fact that when you're talking about sports, I think it's a perfect analogy. But when you're talking about sports, you're talking about imposing yourself. So when you practice your jumper, you're practicing your jumper so that when you get open, you can hit it right, so that you can score. When you're practicing a move, you're practicing on how to beat the defense. You're practicing your a move, then a counter, then something else. You're practicing how to beat a defense, how to impose yourself. Even when you talk about sports, imposing your will on someone, even demoralizing your opponent, like breaking your opponent, but it is a battle of wills. And I don't think people, particularly a lot of black people that I know, look at American politics like that. They look at it as harm reduction. And because they look at it as I vote to reduce the amount of things that are done to me rather than I vote so that I can do something, I think they feel like they have less skin in the game. Do you?

[C]

How do you think? Yeah, I think that was an incredibly intelligent way to frame it because it has been harm reduction, because we in the black community were the original victims of political harm. We were a population whose Entire premise was that we were not entitled to the humanity of our very existence. And so everything we have done has been about harm reduction. But I think that is a self limiting framework. And my excitement about the work that I do and the reason I create a lot of organizations and talk about this so often is that I've seen what can happen when we shift our mindset from harm reduction to victory, when we start to think we can win, when we start to think we deserve things, when we start to believe that we can control the levers of power. That changes your mindset. Now our population size is insufficient on its own to win without help. Which is why I believe in coalitions. And I think, Rachel, to your point about what's happening in Texas, it's a coalition building moment. It's what we did in Georgia. When I ran in 2018, I was a black woman running for an office, first black woman in American history to get the nomination. But I knew that if every black person in Georgia voted, it would be insufficient for victory. And it would be insufficient not just for winning an election. It would be insufficient for building the coalition of the willing and the likely that we need it. I don't want to win with just one group, in fact, and the work that I want to do should serve all. But you've got to build a coalition and that coalition, that team. Because you got your jump, you've got your guards, you've got your centers, your forwards. You, you have a team. Because not everyone can play the same position. They may all have similar skills, but some of them are just better. And some people are just taller. Yeah. And, and the scrappy person may get underestimated, but you got to go and get that person too. And so part of our responsibility as we think about our politics is how, what team do we build? And I may not like the fact that you got traded from a team I hated because they picked you in the first round and they picked me seventh round. And I'm still bitter. Right. You know, or you beat me and I don't have a ring. I'm still going to play with you because when you're on my team, my responsibility is for all of us to succeed and for all of us to be positioned. But back to harm reduction. If you're only fighting to reduce harm, then you are satisfied with not being hurt that day. When you are fighting for victory, then your margin and your metric is what does success look like? And that's where they have gotten away with so much because we've forgotten to Demand success. Success. But I don't expect anyone to want more for me than I want for myself. And that's why I vote. That's why I write. That's why I do all of the things I do. Because no one's ever going to want more for me than I want for myself. And no one's ever going to work harder for me than I will for myself. And so my job is to do what I can to make sure they remember that I'm watching.

[B]

I believe you said that politics is a tool. It's not the only one. So which tools? And maybe this kind of goes into what you're saying. Which tools are you using right now?

[C]

Okay, so I write novels because one of the challenges that we have. And I think, Van, this goes to your point about just sort of the architecture out there. There are all these policies that happen to us and happen around us, but we don't think we have the intellectual heft or the bandwidth to understand it. I write romance novels, legal thrillers, children's books, nonfiction. But I always try to make certain that when you come into a story I write that I meet you with respect for your intelligence and your curiosity. And so, yes, it'll be a romance novel where the guy's really cute and the woman's really pretty, but you're also going to learn about geographic, you know, geologic formations and ethnobotany. My most recent novel is about AI. I'm writing one right now about privatization because I want people to come in at a place where they can hear and absorb and be entertained and be challenged. But entertainment matters. People. Politics is downstream of culture for a reason. People have to believe something is possible and imagine it as necessary before they'll take action to make it so. And so one of the tools I use is creativity. I try to write and produce because I want people to imagine better. I organize, I start organizations. I have, in addition to the work that I did on voter registration, I started Fair Fight to fight for the infrastructure of democracy. Fair Count because the census, which too many of our community ignore, if you didn't get PPE during COVID it was because your community was under counted in the last census. We have to get counted because that is how they're using the numbers right now. The reason Tennessee could gerrymander so quickly, the reason Louisiana and Alabama and Texas and Mississippi all lost seats that were designed for people of color, was because in 2020, organizations like Fair Count made sure that we had the highest count of black and brown people. This country had ever seen. And we got extra seats for it, and they've been mad ever since. I started a group called ceap, which focuses on. I call it translating progressive policy into Southern. I created the 10 Steps campaign because I think authoritarianism can be defeated. I created the American Pride Rises network because DEI is how you create a pluralistic democracy. And they don't like it because they know it works. And so one of my tools is I create organizations, but I also join organizations, and I encourage people to do that. You don't have to be the one to do it. You can just be there to help people get it done. But ultimately, I think one of our most effective tools is our capacity for community, and we underestimate it. You mentioned the barbershop, and I know, Rachel, you spend a lot of time thinking about how people get brought together. When we are together, this. This connection means that we also start to feel empathy. And empathy means we're going to be willing to do more to make sure people don't face harm, but we also do more to make sure that they have joy. And so even if you don't think you're political, if you're a person, you've got skin in this game. And those are tools you can use if you're good at talking to people, if you're good at listening to people, that's a tool that you can use, because people want to tell you what's wrong, and they want to hear you tell them how to make it right.

[A]

So I'm out the barbershop now. Now I'm the dude at the gym. We hooping, we doing whatever.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And while we at the gym, the news is on. Or, like, whatever. It depends on where you at. If I'm out here, it's probably like CNN or whatever, but if I'm back home, I was working out in Baton Rouge. It's nothing but Fox News that they play in the gym. I see y' all down there. Yeah. Okay. So I see up there, and it says voter id. They go, oh, we need voter id. And I'm the. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I agree with them. We need voter id. That makes a lot of sense. You should have to prove who you are to vote. We need voter id. I'm the dude at the gym now. I'm gonna look at you. I'm like, why are you against voter id? It seems like the president and everybody else is right. We need voter id. What would you say to me?

[C]

They're lying. So first and foremost, I wrote A book about voter id. It's called Our Time is Now. The Fight for Fair America. Power, Purpose and Fight for Fair America. There is not a state in the US that does not require voter identification. That's not the conversation. What they are asking for is a restrictive photographic ID that is limited in who can have it, limited in how you can use it, and limited in how you get it. So you're from Louisiana? I'm from, grew up in Mississippi. I'm in Georgia. Rachel, I'm a pick on you in Texas. In Texas, you can use your gun license to vote, but not your student id. Both of those are state issued identification. But in Texas you can use your gun license but not your student identification. So they're not arguing about voter id. They're arguing about who. Who you are when they ID who you are. Every state in America requires voter identification. They don't all require the same identification and they don't all require the same backdrop for that identification. Here's a reason why in 2016 in Wisconsin, Wisconsin had a law that said that you could not vote unless you had a voto, a photo id. But it also said that you had to have a. I think it was a certified. No, it had to be an original birth certificate. Well, if you were a black person born before 1965 in the south, it was highly likely you were not born in a hospital that gave you an original birth certificate. You had to get a certified copy because you got born somewhere else and you had to go and get the county to acknowledge that you were born. Well, a black woman in Wisconsin was denied the right to vote. They literally would not let her cast a ballot because she could not produce a piece of paper she was not legally permitted to have. So when they argue that this is about identification, they are lying. They know who we are. That's why they keep coming after us. It is. How restrictive are the rules so that they can limit who can have that identification? I completely support voter id. I will fight tooth and nail against the SAVE act, which is trying to create such a restrictive system that they winnow out and filter out the people they don't like so they can't have a voice in our democracy.

[B]

No, it's so true. There's a lot of news. This. What is today? Thursday. This week with. Sorry.

[C]

It's okay. It's been a long week.

[B]

There are obviously the August primaries have been a lot of conversation, a lot of key races, people, things that people are focusing on. When you look, I'm sure I know you pay Attention to it all, especially like the key ones. What, if anything, did the results from the primary this week tell you when it comes to voters? Did you recognize anything with voter turnout? Did you recognize with anything with. In the way that they voted? What does it say about anything? And if it does, what does it tell you about the midterms?

[C]

So, one, I remain heartened by who is showing up? We have more people voting. And while primaries are not the same as the general primaries are really about who do we think we like the best?

[B]

Mm.

[C]

The general election is who's going to treat us the best. And those are two different questions. And so I know there's a lot of consternation and angst about who's being selected in primaries across this country. And I would argue that the whole point of a primary is to have that fight. If two people. I don't know if you were. I don't know. In a public contest where people have to decide who do they like, and they may or may not get roses based on it, but that's okay. I have no idea what you're talking about exactly. But you want people to woo you. Primary voters. We want to figure out what's the profile of who we think we like. But the general election is who's going to treat us best. And in the general, we have a very clear set of narratives where there is one suitor who has been consistent for the last two years, the last 60 years, I would say, but certainly the last two years that they don't care about me. They don't care about my future. They have been intentional about being mean to my friends. They have been violent towards some of the people I know, and they have held no accountability for what they've done. On the other side, there's a suitor that maybe when they asked me out, I was like, nah, I don't like you. I want somebody else because they're more of my speed. But they still want to help me. They still want to show up, they still want to take me out, they still want to make sure. They ask, how was my day? And they listen to my answer, and they have ideas about what we can do this weekend. And they will not abuse me. They will not harm me. They will make mistakes, but they're going to do their best because they've told me they want to make me better and make me happy. Who do I date? I pick the person who at least pretends they want my benefit, not the person who has been clear and unambiguous that they are Aligned with someone who says that I don't deserve to be here. And if I am here, I don't deserve anything for being here. And if I may manage to stay here, they don't want to hear from me while I am here. That's the difference. And so, as we think about the, the Sturman drawing and arguments about the labels, you have to remember, I don't care about your label. I care about who you are and what you want from me. People don't care about your politics. They care about their lives. And you've got one group of people who've held power now, who have done everything in their power to use that leverage to create harm. They fired 600,000 black women across this country. They have raised the unemployment rate among black and brown men to astronomical levels. They have killed people. And we have a Supreme Court that is beholden to them, that has said it is okay for us to be stopped and searched because of our skin color, our accent and the language that we speak and that we could be deported for that reason. That's who they are. If you are anyone who believes that I deserve to be here and have a voice and have protection and have health care and, and have housing and have education and have justice, then I believe this midterm is going to be a referendum on who do we want to date. And I want to date the person who actually wants to be with me.

[A]

How. How drastically do you think America is harming itself by not embracing the leadership of black women? Last night, a couple nights ago, we saw Cori Bush lost her primary. Jasmine Crockett lost. Kamala Harris lost. When I hear you talk, I just think about what could have been in Georgia. Some of those races closer than others. How? Just ask the question again. By not embracing brilliant, qualified, capable, visionary black women like some of the women I just named. How badly do you think America is harming itself?

[C]

I think anytime we do not select for who is the most likely to serve us and serve our needs, we are undermining our long term goals. Black women are the most likely to suffer from the indignities and the pathologies of American politics. Politics. Therefore, we are the most likely community to have figured out how to navigate them if we are positioned to stand for public office. It is not a one to one correlation that because you're a black woman, you are qualified. And no one is arguing that. But it is a one to one correlation that if I have survived something, I probably know something about how to make sure you don't get harmed by it too. And so we have missed opportunities. Opportunities because we have been conditioned to believe that certain populations are better prepared for the work. And I'm here to tell you that politics is about how our lives are lived. So there are people who say, oh, I'm not into politics. I'm like, politics is into you and it is a stalker. Politics decides how old you are before you can drive, what kind of food you can eat. Clearly whether we can have lettuce or not. All these are political decisions.

[A]

I fell victim.

[C]

I apologize. Yeah, I didn't do it. I'm sorry. Yeah. But the reason that matters is that we get into these moments where our rarefication of who should hold the job is premised on who we've seen hold the job. Well, if for 250 years we've been here 250 years, for 235 of those years, only certain people could participate. And then when people, more people started joining, when black women started amassing both the resources and the platform, we cannot be surprised that we aren't automatically successful, but we can be intentional about making certain that we widen the aperture and we have more success. I'm the best loser I know. I lost not once, but twice on a very public stage for a job I think I was qualified to hold. But that does not mean that I stopped trying. It may mean that I don't keep trying for the same job every time. And sometimes you guys take a nap. But it should never be used as a pretext for saying that black women can't win. Black women understand the pain in this country because we have often been the victims of that pain and the crucible through which they tested the best means to inflict that pain. Therefore, if we want solutions, we should look for those who've already figured out how to navigate that pain and bring others with them.

[A]

I'll ask a follow up question there. Let's say we're talking about democracy. You know, I'm a self respecting black man. I love my people, I love my culture. Right. Let's say there are two people running. One of them is a black woman and one of them is not a black woman. And for whatever reason, the person that is not a black woman seems to be the one that I gravitate towards. How do, do I need to a deal with my own internalized misogyny war and like look myself in the mirror and self flagellate and do all of that stuff? Or is it possible that there are cases where there's something outside of identity that animates you to vote for a candidate.

[C]

And I'm going to start with the second part of your question. Identity is more than race or gender or sexual orientation or ability, physical ability or disability. Identity is anything that helps define how you navigate the world.

[B]

World.

[C]

Now, race is the strongest predictor because it impacts and informs so many of the decisions that have been made in this nation. The whole idea of critical Race theory was the analysis of all of the ways the systems have been designed based on race as an identity and as a proxy for denying access. So. So it's important for us to understand that's why they didn't like crt, Right? Because critical race theory was like, here's a list of all the things they've done to you and why you can't have all the things that you deserve. Right. Okay. But it's not the only identity. And I would never be so reductive as to say that you have to make your choices based on only one identity. Because depending on where you live, your station in life, your needs and your aspirations, another identity may have primacy. And that's perfectly fine. So that's the first thing. Second is, I'm going to stick up for black men here because I was used as a exhibit in 2022 where people would say that I didn't. That I didn't want black men to win or black men didn't want me to win, which was completely wrong. I had the same polling numbers among black men as a black man, Raphael Warnock. We had these same numbers. In fact, there's a New York Times article about it, and it's like, buried deep in, like, you know, paragraph seven or ten or they acknowledge we had the same polling numbers. I will never let people tell me that black men don't love their sisters as much as their sisters love black men. Like, that is wrong. And that's not what you said. But it is a misinformation trope that has been permeated in our community as a way to divide us from each other. And it is wrong. Now, black women are the most likely to vote for black women. Black men are next to. Now, is there chauvinism in the world? Yes.

[A]

I don't think that there. I'll just show.

[C]

That's a different conversation. And this is your show. So I was about to be really polite about it.

[B]

Oh, we just playing many a times.

[A]

I'm just playing.

[C]

Exactly. So. So, yeah, I mean, sexism plays a role and it's the gap between the 92% and the 82%.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Okay. But that's not the same as the 47%. And I think we spend so much of our time in argumentation about that gap as opposed to in collaboration about how we close it. I do not want you to vote for me because I am a black woman. But I want you to acknowledge that because I'm a black woman, I understand things that you need in a way and at a level that others may not. And that if you want to elect someone who will serve your needs, it's probably best that you pick someone who actually believes that your needs need to be served.

[B]

Do you believe that it is harmful to play into the identity of identity politics?

[C]

No.

[B]

When a candidate is running, not at all.

[C]

So. So you never lead with that. And that's why I've been. I've read stories about how I ran as a black woman when I ran in 2018, and people first started to get to know me.

[A]

Who were you supposed to run as? A giraffe?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I'm like. I'm so, like, you can't miss me. But the argument was that I made my entire campaign about my blackness and my gender. I didn't. Never once. But I never denounced, denied, or denigrated that. Those were parts of me that were incredibly important. And that was my point a moment ago. My experiences made me the person who could stand for that office. You don't vote for me because I'm a black woman, but because I'm a black woman. You know that my experiences, my identity, prepared me to provide the services that I wanted to provide as a political leader. Identity is a. It is a metric. It shows you what you prioritize. And. And if you do not acknowledge it, you are doing a disservice because we do not see stories about that farmer should never mention he's a farmer, that military veteran should never mention they're a veteran. The only time we hear the negative attacks based on identity, it's when it's an immutable characteristic that might actually tell people, here's something that could benefit you that does not look like the norm. When identity is used as a characteristic to inform, it is good. When it is used as a justification to deny, it is problematic, and we are sophisticated enough that we should be able to tell the difference and we should ignore anyone who tells us that we're not smart enough to know.

[B]

I have to follow up with this. Based off that question, is running for office off the table for you?

[C]

Not at all. It is a tool. And right now, I'm Using the tool of trying to save democracy by talking. I have a podcast and I have a substack and I write books. There's a time, so I'm the daughter of pastors. There is a time and a place for everything under the sun. And there's a season. This cycle was not my season. But it is not that I am done. I just have to be ready for the right thing. And that's the other part for me. I have like 12 backup plans. So for me, politics is a thing. It is an incredibly important tool that I have. But I do not require office to have the platform or the intention. And so when you read the litany of things I do, I like to tell people, I travel all the lanes on the freeway. And the destination for me is what is always true. And the destination is I believe that people deserve a democracy that can deliver. I think that poverty is immoral. I think it is economically inefficient. I think it is solvable. But I think poverty is more than just economic deprivation. It is a moral precarity when we don't think that we deserve more. It is the sense of isolation. Those are poverties that we can solve. But you cannot solve them if you don't acknowledge them. And you can't fix them if you aren't willing to stay in the game when you don't get the thing you wanted.

[A]

So Coded justice is the latest in the series of books. You have a character called Avery Keane.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

New York Times best selling author. Wow. Novelist.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Wow. So I've seen that like just recently you've been optioned and that we might see Avery Keene coming to movies or television or something like that.

[C]

So I. So Avery Keane, her most recent novel is Coded justice, available in a bookstore near you go buy it. Yes. Especially small independent bookstores, but buy wherever you want to. And it's about AI Basically, it's about a tech company that's about to go public and they hire Avery to do an investigation. And there are a few murders. And the question is, who or what committed the murder? Because AI is smarter than we think. Avery's story, starting with While justice leaps has been optioned, so we are actually in development right now. And then separately actually wrote a series of romance novels. And my novel, Rules of Engagement is currently in development with Simpson Street.

[A]

Wow. The AI one. That's not the one they're gonna make. They're gonna. They're gonna wait for that one. You're pitching all the ideas. I have one where we talk about the dangers of A.I. amazon's gonna go. Yeah, but let's, let's maybe pause on that one.

[C]

Well, Van, let me tell you the first one. So while justice sleeps. I wrote that actually in 2020, 2010, and it was about a rogue president who was involved in international intrigue and a Supreme Court that was inert and unable to act. And when I tried to sell it, I tried. No, I tried to sell it. I. Perhaps I tried to sell it in 2010. And publishers are like, no, no president would do that. And nobody cares about the Supreme Court ten years later. When it published in 2020, it seemed to. It seemed to matter. And so the second one after that was about the energy crisis and perhaps people using too much energy and maybe being able to manipulate the energy grid to destroy access to society. And the FISA court, which is a secret court that can surveil Americans without us knowing about it. So that's rogue justice. And then coded justice is about AI So if you want to know about what's happening in politics and policy, but you don't want to wait and see it on cnn, pick up a novel by Stacey Abrams in the justice here.

[B]

We talked about psychic ability earlier. What are you talking about?

[A]

So I, I. You're in development, so I'm not supposed to ask you this, but I'm gonna ask you anyway. Who would you want to play her?

[C]

No, no, no.

[A]

See, she didn't. See, I knew I had written down. And, you know, she will not answer this question.

[C]

But will you tell people why? I'm not gonna answer the question.

[A]

Well, I, I would like.

[C]

No, no, no, you tell them why.

[A]

Well, I mean, she's, you know, if she. Number one. And the reason why I wouldn't answer it if I were in development is, number one, you wouldn't want to scare people off from trying to attach the role. And number two, you've probably had some conversations already about people that might be able to play it, and you don't want to. But now there's another way. You can look at this. You could, if you already know, just throw people off the scent or take this opportunity to, you know, big up some of the really talented black women out there that's in the space if you wanted to do something. Because that's what I. What I would do is, I might say, hey, he's five great, beautiful, talented black women. But I love black women like that. So maybe you don't want to do that.

[C]

I would love to do that. The problem is there's number six. Number Seven. Number eight. Number nine.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

And. And I'm a really good politician.

[A]

Absolutely catching me up. But I. But just. Just real quick. I, like, literally have it written down. This is not. She's not going to answer that. But, like. And you shouldn't. But really, what is it like to see a character that you've dreamed. Look at the esteemed. I want everybody. I want everyone to peep what just happened. I said that. And she. You're proud of that?

[C]

I am. I am.

[A]

To know that that came out of your mind in this way, from the creative part of who you are, people might get to see it and attach to it and feel it in a different way. I just saw. I just. I just saw that happen. That means a lot to you.

[C]

It does. I. So two things happen when you said that. So I lost my father recently, and my dad was dyslexic. He grew up in the Jim Crow South, Mississippi, and the. And was a young black man who couldn't read because he was dyslexic and didn't get diagnosed. He was just told he was stupid.

[B]

It.

[C]

My dad memorized his way through school, never missed a day of school, because the only way he could learn was to actually be there to hear it, because he had this amazing aural memory. My dad read every single Avery Keen novel, and he would talk about her like she was real. And he would. My parents lived with me for a few years, so they lived with me while I was writing Rogue justice and Coded justice, because I write every Coming out. They come out every couple of years. And he would. He. I would. I would write in the basement of my house, and I come upstairs, and he's like, so, what's Avery up to right now? And he would be. Or when he was reading it, he's like. He would call me in, why did Avery do that? Like. Like she was a person. And he. He got mad because she made some choice. And. Yeah, I'm like, I'll talk to her about it. Like she was real. But when you said that, like, it was. For a second there, I just. I could hear my dad smiling at that question. Because it matters to imagine something and to commit to giving it form and shape and life and then have someone see it. That's just a joy, and it's a privilege. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. Congratulations. You do everything as a Delta. I just want to throw it out there.

[C]

So I hate to say that I'm a. Whisper it back to you. You're not. My Leslie is the Delta that's My youngest.

[A]

Played yourself.

[C]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You are not.

[A]

You are not leaving in the podcast.

[C]

You are not glad that it happened. You.

[B]

I think she is.

[C]

Let me look like saw it in multiple places and I'm going to tell you. And this is. This is why. So van. I'm going to defend Rachel on this one. I have been claimed by multiple sororities. I am mei Mei me. I pledged that at Spelman, and I have remained that way ever since. Since. But my sister Leslie is a Delta.

[A]

Not to interrupt you. I just let you know while you were doing that, you were doing like this.

[C]

That's just because I'm Southern.

[A]

She was. While she was saying that.

[C]

That's just because I'm Southern.

[A]

Look at the colors. Well, oh, Rachel looked like she was doing like this. I think she.

[C]

What mess are you trying to do on the podcast?

[B]

Yes, he always tries to do this. It is not too late for you. We would love to have you. I like that. The rumors out there. See, I shouldn't have said anything because then everybody would have just thought it. Everybody would have just thought it. Last question. I'll say to you, because this isn't lost on me, that this week is the sixth, actually, today, as we're recording, is the 61st anniversary of the Voting Rights Act. We started off talking about it, about how there's been this backsliding of how it's been chipped away. We asked questions about, like, so what's. Yes, Democratic backsliding, a term you use. We've talked about how it's been chipped away. We talked about what do we have left of it. And then you've given us so much hope and what to focus on. But if you could make a statement today, kind of marking where we are 61 years since that historic moment, what would you say?

[C]

I would say that it took us from 1787 or 1776, but really 1787 until 1965 for this country to match its ethic with its ethos. And there are those who would do everything in their power to take us back. We do not have to go, but we also don't have to use their tools to build what we need. This is a moment where we can start deciding the kind of country we want. And it is going to take time and effort. We are going to succeed and fail. But the Voting Rights act did not just manifest out of nothing. It was born out of harm and pain and ambition and power and intention. And if we harness those things, we will celebrate in 60 years. Not just the renewal of the Voting Rights act, but the sanctification of voting as the way we hold our power in this country. And that's the work I want to do.

[A]

Wow. I have a last question as well. You are a very accomplished poet. We've seen that before. So basically, you're kind of a rapper. What I want you to do is give me three absolutely filthy rap songs that you love. The most disgusting, dirty, violent. Just think about it. You just catch yourself seen and you're like, oh, my God, Why? How could I do that? Just filthy, crazy shit that Stacy Abrams likes.

[C]

It's amazing how the microphone just went out. I can't. I don't understand what happened.

[B]

I was waiting for the political response.

[C]

Yes, Stacy. 11 Old McDonald had a farm E

[A]

I E I O Stacy Abrams trying to get you. Trying to clip her. She's.

[C]

She too good.

[A]

I sincerely hope we see your name on the ballot sooner rather than later, but if not, I'm from this conversation as interested and invested into what you're doing with your creative mind than anything else. We are so happy and blessed that you joins us on the podcast today.

[C]

Thank you so much, Dan and Rachel. Thank you for having me. This is a delight.

[B]

Van, I'm sure you saw this, right?

[A]

No, I didn't see this. What is this? You told me not to look.

[B]

Do you see that?

[A]

No. Who is this?

[B]

That is David Banner. That is David Banner.

[A]

Shit.

[B]

You didn't see this video? This is David Banner performing at a UGK event. Bumby event.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Obviously the song that he collaborates. Let's run it back one more time with the intro, how he comes out, because this is. This went viral, as you can imagine.

[A]

I didn't see.

[B]

Because we haven't seen.

[A]

I'm off to it.

[B]

We haven't seen David Banner viral on threads, on social media. Look at that. Look at that energy.

[A]

That's the fuck I'm talking about.

[B]

A lot of people were talking about this because they looked at David Banner and they saw the wig, okay? They said, wow. Even see David Banner wear that. Saw the way that he moved. Okay? Light on his feet, skipping in. I looked at that and I saw. I said to myself, I said, van. Okay, Van.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is what I want for you.

[A]

I could do that right now.

[B]

This. This is what I want.

[A]

Everything that David Banner just said I could do. Yeah.

[B]

Let me tell you why I wish I was there, because had I been there, I would have brought one of my wigs. Okay? This is why this Is. This is what I want from you. Okay. Talk about. We witnessed your hair transition. Yeah. Okay. We witnessed the hairline come back. We talked about all the creative ways of things that you can do with it, and you don't. You put hats on. Multiple ones. You already told us what you're gonna do for this fall. You cover it up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let the hairline grow.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Let the locks shine. Last week, you showed us what you or you told us. We learned the video wasn't about you moving like that, but you. You are now on a mission to recreate that video. But you did let us know you can move like that. So when I saw this video and I looked at David Banner, I said, van. That's Van. That's who I want Van to be. I want him to be light on his feet. I want him skipping around the stage, and I want him swinging his hair. That is when I think you will reach your best self.

[A]

Right. Right.

[C]

That is you.

[A]

Okay. Okay, so this is what I'll say. This is what I'll say.

[B]

So don't skip now. Wait till I get there, and I'll bring the wig.

[A]

Number one, I could do that. Everything that David Barron just did on stage, I could do that. I could do that. Okay, number one, I will tell y' all something about the hair. So I gotta go back and get the hair done again, is the thing. Because there are points. The hair. They brought the hairline back good. But now I'm just gonna get the hole from here filled in. Cause it is.

[B]

It.

[A]

You know, it's not like the hair. I just. I need more for the hair. I need to go back to the. To the. To the.

[B]

Put your head down. Do this.

[A]

I don't. I don't want to do it.

[B]

No, do this.

[A]

I don't want to do it. I want to do it. It's fine. Everything's fine. But it could be darker. So I'm gonna go back there and get more done, and then that's when I'm gonna let my soul glow and let it flow and let it shine through and stuff like that. But if it's about the wig and about those movements, I could do that. Like, I can do that right now.

[B]

Well, I want you to grow your hair like that. I want you to be free. I want you to be light. Now we'll wait until I return, and then you can do the move.

[A]

I don't have enough space. Okay. I don't have enough space to do it anymore.

[B]

If we can get a camera to

[A]

follow you well, we could do it. We could do it at our live show. We having a live show. Hey, you know what? How about this? How about maybe it's not about what y' all want from me.

[B]

Maybe it's about we want you to be your best.

[A]

I want. Maybe it's about what I want for myself. And I will say this. I will recreate we having a live show. I will recreate that David Bana Skip with the hair at the live show. No problem. I could do that right now, y'.

[C]

All.

[B]

That's nice. Because you did do something. You were supposed to take your shirt off for some reason. I did take it off live show. And you didn't. So. Yeah, you owe. No, you did not. You owe the people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I. I think that this is what they would love to see. I think I'm gonna do it in your red bottoms and your two piece suit with your Braveheart wig.

[A]

I'll wear exactly that same thing and I'll give the people what they want. But I'm telling y', all, this is what I'm saying to y', all, though. Y' all can tell me what y' all want from me, but I also have to be able to tell y' all what I want from y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

So it's not gonna be about, hey, Van, get out there. Because if this situation were reversed and I asked you to get in a wig and dance, I would make the front page of Madame Noir magazine. Ebony, Jett Essence Villain of the month. Van Lathan asked Rachel Lindsay to put on a wig and dance. I'm not even gonna go at it that way. Cause I could do this. And I'm going to take this as a challenge. I ran this morning. I ran two miles. My pace was 10 minutes. I'm getting back

[C]

practice.

[B]

Skip, huh? When's the last time you skipped?

[A]

So this is a real thing. I can't believe you just asked me this.

[B]

Why Skipping is a real thing about. It makes you feel happy.

[A]

So. So look, hold on. So it was like 91. It was like 91. It was like91. We was in California. We was living in Hawthorne and. Cause I did fifth and sixth grade in California. It might have been nine. I can't remember what year it was the first year we got here. So it was 91. We came back in 92. We did. I did two years out here. And my Uncle Marvin has sent some roller skates. I don't know if I ever talked about this. My Uncle Marvin has sent some roller skates down from Northern California. My Uncle Marvin used to always send us stuff. Like, part of the reason why I am the way that I am right now is because he got us a subscription to World Book Encyclopedias. Encyclopedia. And I would just be in the house just reading the encyclopedic. Like, they had all kinds of different encyclopedias you could read. There was like, one that was just the book of the year. And it'd be everything that happened in the whole year, and I would just read through the encyclopedia. It was. It was crazy. Just this endless wealth of knowledge where you can learn anything you want. You can go from, like, fucking Aardvark to fucking Anthony fucking whatever. It's just all of this stuff that's in there. It's like, Jesus Christ. Like, you're. You can. If you go to Anthony in the encyclopedia, it tells you where the name come from. I just. I could not stop. But then I think that maybe my dad. My mom was like, don't send no more fucking encyclopedias around here. Van going crazy, right? So he sent. So, like, he sent some roller skates. So he sent the roller skates and, bro, man, I became the roller skatingest nigga ever. I'm around on these roller skates all over the block skating. And I'm a big kid, man. At this point, I'm in the sixth grade, so I'm probably already about 5, 9 to 5 10. Probably like 165. So I'm like a nigga. I'm like a grown man, right? By the time I got to high school, I was 6 foot 200. So I look like a regular nigga around the fucking thing on roller skates. And my dad did not like this. He did not like me skating everywhere. He didn't. He didn't like it at all, right? But he didn't say shit. But then there was one time I was leaving. York elementary is where I went to elementary school. And it was two girls that were on the side of me, and they were skipping. And then to play with them, I got in the middle of them and I started skipping, too. And I swear to God, man. Hold on. So I'm skipping with them. We're laughing, and they think it's funny that I'm. And then I look up was, yeah, our house was right next to the school. Like we lived on York. So I look up and I see my dad, who was pulling his truck into the driveway, and he had sleep stopped and the window was down, and he was looking at me as I was skipping with the two girls.

[C]

And He.

[A]

He looked and then she just drove. And I'm like, I shouldn't be skipping. So I go in the house, and my dad. My dad looked at me. He was like, take the roller skates. I ain't said nothing. You've been around here on the skates. You said, now I seen you skipping. He said, take the roller skates. Oh, my God. I promise, y'. All. It was Anna.

[B]

Anna was white that told us that. Like.

[A]

Like, Anna was white. And I forgot the little Mexican homegirl's name because my man. My man Alex was with her. And Anna was like. There was only like two or three we. And they. They skipping. And I see them. So I started skipping. I'm just playing. I'm just playing and I'm skipping. And I look up and, like, he. The truck. The window. The truck was rolled down, and he got his hat kind of flipped up. He looks and he just pulls into the thing. I'm like, God damn, I'm in trouble. This has seen me skipping. He getting in. That was the end of the roller skates. He said, take the roller skates. Put the roller skates in the thing. Okay? I used to. Because even when he would see me roller skating, I knew he didn't like it. But, like, I would taunt him with the roller skates. So, like, he would see me. He'd be looking at me skating, because I don't know why he thought maybe skating. Skating was feminine or something. He would see me skating with no skate culture when doing cool shit and being flying the skates. This is me skating around the neighborhood, right? So he would see me on the skates, and I would just do something like skate backwards. I would just fuck with him. You know what I mean? Skate. Cause mom was. I'd skate up the stairs, skate down the stickers. Mom. Mom had no problem with this. But he saw the skipping, and he put the skipping together with the roller skates.

[B]

Well, he had never seen you skipping.

[A]

So you said, yeah, never seen me skip.

[B]

And, you know, it was a gateway.

[A]

You know what the thing is, I do not think that I have skipped since that's the answer to this question.

[B]

What a full circle moment.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

I am happy to bring it back, y'. All.

[A]

This was so funny. Cause even the people I was with, like, your daddy, look. Cause I come back to school the next day, and I was like, your daddy is meant to. Like, your daddy is mean. Cause they see him right there. That nigga wasn't playing with that shit. Oh, my God, bro,

[B]

that's Hilarious.

[A]

That's a true story. And then he started holding on a little tight. He started like, I'd be sitting around, he'd be like, all right, come on, we're going to play baseball. I love playing baseball. Like, come on. But like just nailing ground balls at me.

[B]

That's like a mood. You have to write that song scene into something you do one day. Because the idea. I know you were so happy. Like I see the smile on your face because you were with two girls that you like, you're smiling, you're skipping, you're having a good time and then bam. Like the way your smile had to just. You have to. That is such a funny scene.

[A]

I was like, not like when I'm, I'm talking about, I was skipping because they're skipping. They're just playing, right? Everybody's just playing. Like they playing. They live in a bloodhaven. They like, whatever, like they plan and like so I see them skipping. So I'm skipping too. I'm jumping around and shit. It's just the worst possible time. So last time I skipped. All right, let's get the fuck.

[B]

Well, let's bring it back. 30 year anniversary.

[A]

30 year anniversary. No. Yeah.

[B]

35 year anniversary skip. A versary York. Just imagine what a difference it'll be. Instead it'll be a crowd of people saying, go Van, go Van.

[A]

I'll be skipping.

[B]

Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. Me and Jade will get on both sides of you.

[A]

We skip. I remember like that was Ms. Dollarhyde's class. I remember Ms. Dollarheide, last story I'll tell real quick. So Ms. Dolahye was my fifth grade teacher and then Mr. Neubauer was my, my sixth grade teacher. Mr. Neubauer has passed away. But Mr. Neubauer was the teacher that let me. I directed a play like Mr. Neubauer. Mr. Neubauer had done a play where he took Beatles songs and he put them into a play and I directed the play. Like he saw me hanging around and stuff like that. He was like, I directed the play. Mr. Newbauer School, he's passed away now. But Ms. Dollar at one time came into the class and, and was trying to teach and we were like, this is a, this is a la thing. She was trying to teach and she was doing like. She was like, this really happened guys. She was like writing this stuff. And like one of the homies goes, Dwayne went. I remember these kids now. Dwayne, Jerome, all of these people that lived on my fucking Marcy and them live right now. It just. For some reason that mem. These memories just exploded into my head. And so she's trying to, like. She's trying to like, teach class. And Dwayne goes, yo, what's wrong with you? And she goes, I was in a bank robbery. I swear, I was just like. She goes, I was in a bank robbery. And then she turns around and tells a fifth grade class the harrowing tale of how she went into the bank and ran into the bank, like, heat and robbed the bank. And like, she tells the story about the guy comes in and it was funny because she told it. She told it. She goes. The guy comes in and she. She screams and he goes. And she goes. And he went, shut up. So the first time I ever said to class, yes, she did, I swear, I promise you. She goes. She goes. And he puts the gun up and he goes, shut up.

[B]

She needed to talk to somebody.

[A]

She needed to talk to somebody. She like.

[B]

She.

[A]

But my thing is, like, why you come to school, though? Like, what time did this happen? Like, she in the bank and like, I got so many questions. Did it happen the day before or like, whatever. But she had to get it off her chest and, like, legitimately, for the rest of the class, for the rest of the day. Because remember, this is the fifth grade, so we in the same place, the same class, the whole day just switching subjects out, putting books under the desk and all of that. Like, got the desk open, you put the books inside of it. And for the rest of the day, that's what she talked about. Ms. Dollar. Hyde. Ms. Dollar. Hyde talked about the fact that she had been in the bank robbery. And even when enrichment came, we went to enrichment. We went inside enrichment, and we was in enrichment. She talked about it in enrichment. I'm like, God damn, is she gonna get over this? Trying to get to his.

[B]

She wasn't over.

[A]

She wasn't.

[B]

She was.

[A]

Okay, all right, man, that's crazy. I got More York Elementary. It was only two years there, but going to elementary school in Hawthorne was like, funny. I got More York elementary stories. I'mma break em out. I haven't really told very many stories from Hawthorne and all of that shit. Ebony would probably be better at that. Cause she was running the streets. Take your think caps off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathan Jr.

[B]

I'm Rachel and Liz, these back ends.