Biden’s Cancer Diagnosis, and RGIII’s Got Thoughts on Caitlin vs. Angel

Summary

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Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Biden’s Cancer Diagnosis, and RGIII’s Got Thoughts on Caitlin vs. Angel

Date: May 20, 2025
Podcast Host: The Ringer
Special Guest: Anna Tubbs

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay dive deep into current events and pressing issues within Black culture, politics, and sports. Topics include President Joe Biden’s recent cancer diagnosis and its political fallout, the ongoing gentrification and displacement of Black communities in Atlanta, and heated debates in women’s basketball centered around Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese—with a critical look at RGIII’s controversial commentary. The episode features an engaging and insightful interview with author Anna Tubbs, whose new book "Erased: What American Patriarchy Has Hidden from Us" sparks a robust discussion of patriarchy’s modern impact, collective power, and pathways to change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hip-Hop Impressions & Cultural Legends (00:16–03:48)

• Van opens with a playful Chuck D impression, followed by a group debate about hip-hop knowledge.
• Rachel reflects on attending the “Queens” tour with legends like Gladys Knight and Patti LaBelle.
• Van riffs:

  "When you can sing, it never goes away. When you can sing, maybe one day you might not be able to sing anymore. But if you can sing with the A...it never goes away. Some would say it gets better with time." (03:23)

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2. Introspection on Patriarchy & Masculinity (03:54–08:04)

• Introduction of Anna Tubbs’ upcoming appearance and her focus on American patriarchy.

• Van and Rachel share candid insights on unlearning patriarchy, self-awareness, and gender-based expectations.

• Van on internal struggle:

  "Hey, I'm looking at the chauvinist in the mirror, your moments...but at the same time, look, I was raised by...patriarchal men. I'm the best version I could get with where and how I was brought up." (04:22)

• Discussion of Joy Taylor’s podcast and the male loneliness epidemic, highlighting societal narratives around masculinity.

• Rachel notes:

  "A woman speaks out and says something that challenges masculinity or patriarchy or whatever it may be...men are going to jump on it and don't even realize you're doing exactly what it is we're talking about." (07:07)

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3. Quick Hitters: News Roundup

Jeffrey Epstein Conspiracy Theories (09:09–14:52)

• Panel discusses new comments from FBI officials denying any conspiracy in Jeffrey Epstein’s death.
• Van contextualizes shifting political narratives and MAGA outrage, reminding listeners of bipartisan reluctance to transparency.
• Rachel critiques political flip-flopping & selective outrage:

  "You had people like Dan Bongino, who on his podcast was talking about government conspiracy, which is so interesting...Trump was the one who was president at the time this was happening. So, are you saying Trump covered it up? Trump’s part of the problem?" (12:46)

Atlanta’s Gentrification & Changing Black Identity (14:52–18:58)

• Recent study finds Atlanta has lost 40% of its majority-Black census tracts since 1980.

• Van examines the city’s perception vs. reality as a Black Mecca; contrasts Black visibility with wealth erosion.

• Rachel:

  "Atlanta is the number one city for income inequality in America. The median household income for Black families is one-third of that of whites. Poverty really exists. So if you're really talking about Black people in Atlanta, it's not a Mecca situation. They're talking about the past." (17:29)

• Van emphasizes the difference between income and durable wealth for Black communities.

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4. Biden’s Cancer Diagnosis: Political & Social Fallout (21:38–35:50)

• News that former President Joe Biden has been diagnosed with advanced, aggressive prostate cancer.

• Van predicts political speculation about the timing and transparency of the announcement, referencing reports about Biden’s acuity and campaign decisions.

• Van:

  "The American people were told over and over again that President Biden was fine...Then there, of course, was a very public debate between him and Donald Trump where that obviously was not the case." (22:19)

• Rachel raises concerns about Biden’s legacy and the erosion of trust in public officials:

  "All the years that Biden has had working for government...comes into question because what has been proven is that we couldn't really trust what was coming from him...did any of it even matter?" (26:04, 34:43)

• Consulted medical expert clarifies ambiguity in cancer timelines and screening.

• Van’s broader critique:

  "If you're not doing what's best for those people, then I can't respect you at all. It doesn't matter who you are." (30:17)

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5. Sports, Celebrity, and Gendered Narratives

RGIII’s Commentary on Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese (38:11–48:04)

• RGIII (Robert Griffin III) is called out for his take that Angel Reese “hates” Caitlin Clark, escalating on-court rivalry to personal animus.

• Audio montage and Van’s critique:

  "Why is RG3 deciding to baby Caitlin Clark? ...why is he running in to be captain, save a Hooper? Like what...this glaze is...the worst kind of glaze." (42:24)

• Rachel accuses RGIII of projecting a fixation with whiteness and disrespecting Black women:

  “Every time we talk about him on this podcast, it’s the way that he is fascinated and seems to be obsessed with whiteness, particularly white women...as he's belittling black women, there is an obsession, and he has a lot of...microaggressions towards black women.” (43:35)

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Tory Lanez “Glaze of the Week” (48:04–55:35)

• Dissection of celebrities (Chris Brown, Kanye, Drake, Ty Dolla $ign) posting #FreeToryLanez petitions after new claims in the Megan Thee Stallion shooting.
• Van’s stand:

  “If Tory Lanez knows that he didn't shoot Meg the Stallion and he is doing 10 years...then Tory Lanez deserves to be in jail. The entire trial played out.” (49:24)

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Snoop Dogg & Political Accountability (56:56–67:14)

• Snoop faces heat for performing at Trump inauguration festivities for a friend (David Sacks), defending with “30 minutes vs 30 years” of giving back.

• Rachel:

  “I would rather him actually not say anything at this point, because what he seems to continuously miss is what it represented for him to be there. It doesn't matter...the fact that he's excusing it or not taking into consideration how this affects people...makes me feel the same way even more.” (59:13)

• Van explores Snoop’s powerful, influential connections (David Sacks, conservative activist) and discusses the idea that loving a public figure includes holding them accountable:

  “The disappointment that we had and have in Snoop is love. That's because we love Snoop so much and because Snoop has been there for us so much...And the question that people were asking to Snoop...is why aren’t you there for us now?” (64:54)

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6. FEATURE INTERVIEW – Anna Tubbs: “Erased” and the Modern Patriarchy (71:14–94:58)

Defining Patriarchy & American Specificity (71:14–73:39)

• Anna Tubbs offers a clear definition:

  “Patriarchy...is a system that favors men over women and gives access to resources to men and power and control to men so that they can control women. And our nation was set up as a patriarchal system...” (71:43)

How Women (Especially White Women) Protect Patriarchy (74:16–77:27)

• Anna traces how some women—especially white women—support the system for token protection and status:

  “One of the reasons a lot of women end up protecting patriarchy, especially white women, is because they actually do have some protection that's afforded to them by it...So we thus far have spoken about patriarchy as if it affects all women the same...when in reality, it's affected us all very differently.” (74:16)

The American Founders and Anti-democratic Roots (77:27–78:53)

• Anna:

  “The Founding Fathers wanted to get disorderly men in line. They wanted to make sure women were going to be subjugated...It wasn't hidden. It wasn't something that they were apologetic about. They felt that that was the way that they could maintain power...” (78:53)

• The group discusses how law, policy, and cultural narratives have enforced and justified patriarchy, and how it is fundamentally a “made-up story”—and thus, malleable.

Black Women’s Historical Resistance (82:40–84:18)

• Van highlights that basic acts of motherhood and family in Black history were acts of resistance:

  “Mothering was an act of revolution...There were so many things that our ancestors did to assert their humanity and go against the forced status quo...” (82:40)

Optimism for Dismantling Patriarchy (84:18–87:23)

• Anna says:

  “Not all of us have the privilege of being pessimistic...when you understand the vulnerability of American patriarchy, when you understand that it's just this story that's made up, it really removes its power...” (84:37)

Audience Q&A: Men and Patriarchy, Practical Steps (87:27–91:11)

• Van asks: "What can a man do to fight patriarchy in himself and society?"
• Anna’s layered response:
  • Internal: Question your beliefs about control and entitlement.
  • In relationships: Examine expectations and dynamics at home.
  • Community: Build collective support and interconnectedness.
  • National: Vote for policies that move towards equity for all, not just maintenance of hierarchy.

  “The final layer is on the national layer. How do you vote and what are you voting for? ...Are you voting for everybody to have their needs met so that they can have power within themselves?” (90:10)

Pushback & Reception (91:13–93:52)

• Anna shares early pushback and defensiveness, especially among white women, underscoring the necessity of the conversation.
• Anna:

  “You're always going to have those people who are like, one star, this made no sense, this woman's trying to blow it all up...But it's fine. We're gonna be okay. I hope it helps enough people and opens enough eyes...” (91:33)

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7. Reflections, Ratings, and Closing Thoughts (94:58–End)

• Van, Rachel, Donnie, and Ashley humorously rate each other on a "Patriarchy Scale."

• Rachel tells Van:

  “You're aware. And I think that that goes...I would give you a seven.” (95:32)

• Playful back-and-forth about being an "asshole" for one’s unspoken judgments, using an example involving Fred Hampton’s photo and astrological conversations.

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Notable Quotes

• Van Lathan: “I believe in...Americans and their ability to come together and solve problems. But I just don't believe in oligarchy or the elite, small group corporate power that dominates the American political conversation. I don't believe in it.” (35:50)

• Rachel Lindsay: “When you love something, you hold it accountable. You want to see them at their best.” (68:52)

• Anna Tubbs: “The opposite of American patriarchy is not a world or a country where women have power over men, but instead, it’s a place where we each have power within ourselves.” (73:13)

• Van Lathan: “Mothering was an act of revolution. Being a mom was an act of revolution. Getting married was an act of revolution...And you have to have an accurate understanding of your history and what your history is to be able to get that.” (82:40)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Hip-Hop Quiz & Concerts: 00:16–03:48
• Patriarchy Intro/Honesty: 03:54–08:04
• Epstein Conspiracy: 09:09–14:52
• Atlanta Gentrification: 14:52–18:58
• Biden’s Cancer Diagnosis: 21:38–35:50
• RGIII & WNBA Debates: 38:11–48:04
• Tory Lanez Glaze: 48:04–55:35
• Snoop Dogg & Political Accountability: 56:56–67:14
• Anna Tubbs Interview Starts: 71:14
  • Defining Patriarchy: 71:43
  • White Women & Patriarchy: 74:16
  • Founders’ Anti-democracy: 77:27
  • Black Women’s Resistance: 82:40
  • Optimism & Dismantling Systems: 84:37
  • Advice to Men: 87:27
  • Pushback: 91:33
• Reflection/Patriarchy Scale/Wrap-Up: 94:58–End

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Memorable Moments

• Van’s vulnerable acknowledgment of how even progressive men are socialized into patriarchy.
• RGIII’s commentary sparking a larger conversation about internalized bias and public figures’ influence.
• The layers of Black history and resistance, especially women’s roles, highlighted by Anna Tubbs.
• A rare, in-depth exploration of how collective identity, voting, and relationships perpetuate or dismantle structural power.

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This summary captures the depth, sharpness, and humor of the conversation in Higher Learning’s signature tone. For listeners seeking practical insight, fresh perspective, and honest critique—this episode delivers across culture, politics, gender, and history.

Transcript

[Anna Tubbs]

Foreign.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Warriors, what is up? Higher learning is on. This is Ivan Lake Jr.

[Anna Tubbs]

And it's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Me, Rachel, and Lindsey.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's what I'm talking about. Rach.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's time for a hip hop quiz. Just like Diddy quizzed me on hip hop. I'mma do an impression of someone, and the three of you guys got to tell me who this person is. All right? I hit a drum, I get wicked. I hit a. Hit a drum, I get wicked.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So I don't think that this really speaks to our knowledge, because you could just be doing a really bad impression.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Who? Donnie? Okay, Ashley, who is it?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know. You sound really weird.

[Donnie]

See, I thought it was Chuck D.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It is Chuck D. It is Chuck.

[Donnie]

D. I was second guessing myself, but.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It'S in your face, like a bas. In your face.

[Donnie]

See, I looked up. Hear the drummer get wicked.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, no, no, no. When I look it up on Google.

[Donnie]

It says it's by Chad Jackson.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Talk about the other man. Sweet of the rope. Red, White and blue. Jack and his crew beat the brain.

[Rachel Lindsay]

How long. How long you been working on this.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Chuck D impression, man? Chuck D get me going, man. Sometimes when I would go into meetings, like, and it was gonna be a lot of what I put that. Can't Trust It. No, no, no, no, no. You remember the Can't Trust it video, which I think was directed by Brett Ratner, by the way, which is, you know, not great. But you remember the Can't Trust it video where, like, there's a video, there's a public enemy, Can't Trust it, where I think they're slaves or sharecroppers on a plantation. And the enslaved person, the enslaved man, is so excited because his wife is about to have a baby, and then the baby comes out white? That's in the Can't Trust it video. You remember these videos? Y' all remember like that?

[Rachel Lindsay]

If I don't remember, Donny and Ashley definitely don't.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So most people, their favorite Public Enemy song is Fight the Power. Obviously. Fight the Power. Fight the Power.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right, right, right, right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But mine is Can't Trust. It. Always was. Anyway, I like public shout out to Chuck D, shout out to Flavor Flav, shout out to public.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Speaking of artists, last night I went to the Queens tour, okay? I saw Gladys Knight, chaka Khan, Patti LaBelle and Stephanie Mills. It was. It's not often you get to go see legends. And these women's voices sound exactly the same. It was incredible. I had the best time. Have you seen any of them in concert? I Have I've seen Patty like three times already. But you've seen all these people?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, I've seen, I mean, at.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Different times, some people on tour. That much?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, I mean, not all of them, but like at different times.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Give me the names again. Let me make sure.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Stephanie Mills. Gladys. Seen her?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Chaka Khan.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I've never seen Chaka Khan. I've never seen Shaka Kan in concert.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sounds exactly the same.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's because when you can sing, Patti LaBelle. When you can sing, it never goes away. When you can sing, maybe one day you might not be able to sing anymore. If you can sing. If you can sing, then one day that shit might fall apart. But if you can sing with the A. If you can sing with the A, it never goes away. Some would say that it gets better with time.

[Rachel Lindsay]

These women were 70s and 80s still kicking it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We have Anna Tubbs on the show today. She's got a new book out. The book is about American patriarchy. We get to talk about the structures that undergird this patriarchy and we get definitions of it for women and for men. I get to do a little, you know, self exploration here about my own patriarchy with Anna Tubbs. It's very. It's very important. Cause you gotta look at yourself first.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I found you. You're very self aware.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Hey, I'm looking at the chauvinist in the mirror. Your moments, you know, I'm asking him to make a change. You know, I have moments, but at the same time, look, I was raised by the men, men's patriarchal men. I'm the best version. I believe truly. I believe truly, truly believe this. On the men, women, chauvinist, patriarchy front, I'm the best version of myself. The best version. This is as good as I could get with where and how I was raised and brought up, you know, this is the best.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And you're only gonna get better. Yeah, yeah, I agree with you.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This might be as good as I can do. I don't know. I'm doing my best.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Come on, Van. Strive to be better.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Look, all you guys, you're doing great. All you guys do. Let's be honest. Let's be honest.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, here we go. Just tapping back into it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm tapping back into it. But look, here's the thing. All you guys do is kick me in my ass. That's all you do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I literally just said how great it is. And I believe you. But strive to keep doing better.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Don't stop, look, even shout out To Joy Taylor. I was on Joy Taylor's podcast, and it's starting to go viral. What Joy was talking about on the podcast, because Joy's one of those people. Joy has entered a very interesting space in her career. Joy has become a lightning rod, and there's a lot of scrutiny that comes with being a lightning rod. But there's also a lot of cheddar cheese, pepper, cheddar jack. Cheddar jack cheese. Okay. So she was talking about the male loneliness epidemic and how the male loneliness epidemic affects men and why she feels like. Well, she said two things. One, she said that there's not actually a war on masculinity. There's a war on femininity. And she talked about the fact that really it's men's standards and their perceptions that are primarily, in her opinion, responsible for the male loneliness epidemic. So Joy thinks. So Joy thinks. And I was sitting there on our podcast, and we were talking, and then we got to a different area, and everybody's like, oh, Van is this. Van lets women say whatever. How do I let women. I don't let women. I talk to women. Women talk. I talk back. Sometimes the patriarchy comes out. I don't let any. I don't. There's no let. Where is there a let? Who lets you know?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's called a conversation.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree with what she was saying, too, by the way. It's like, you know, it is what it is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's so funny how triggered men. It's actually not funny, but it's like. It's like clockwork. A woman sitting speaks out and says something that challenges masculinity or the patriarchy or whatever it may be. And, you know, just like that, men are going to jump on it and don't even realize you're doing exactly what it is that we're talking about.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, I think that there are a lot of conversations to be had about how men and women are socialized and how that that socialization leads men and women to make decisions that they make. I think that there are probably a lot of convos to where if we get into the conversation, people gonna be like, van is just like his daddy. And then there's other convos to where they gonna be like, van is pandering. But I have a wide spectrum of opinions on all of this stuff. And sometimes y' all do be wilding, but I'm controlled.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You know, like, I'm like, you know, I'm just getting different women telling me to do better, and that's my life. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai, who says you can't be the topic of conversation for all the right reasons. The Hyundai Tucson hybrid pairs bold presence with advanced technology and sleek style. It's everything you didn't know you needed in an SUV and then some. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by Universal Pictures. Would you sell your soul for greatness? What would you be willing to sacrifice? Find out on September 19th in the new Jordan Peele produced horror film Him Only in theaters, starring Marlon Wayans as the greatest football player of all time and Tariq Withers as his up and coming protege. Directed by Justin Tipping and produced by Monkey Paw Productions, Never Meet yout Idols. Him hits theaters September 19th. All right, quick hitters. Anna Tubbs is later. Quick hitters. Go Donnie.

[Donnie]

First quick hitter. In a recent interview with Fox, FBI Deputy Director Dan Bongino, or as Van says, Bongingo and director Cash Patel talked about Jeffrey Epstein and how he definitely took his own life.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You said Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. People don't believe it.

[Ashley]

Well, I mean, listen, they have a.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right to their opinion.

[Ashley]

But as someone who has worked as a public defender, as a prosecutor, who's.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Been in that prison system, who's been in the metropolitan Detention center, who's been in segregated housing, you know a suicide.

[Ashley]

When you see one, and that's what that was.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He killed himself. Again, you want me to. I've, I've, I've seen the whole file. He killed himself.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why is this funny to you?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Trump is petrified of Americans learning the truth about Jeffrey Epstein. One of the main things that Donald Trump was talking about, actually, that's actually not true. When Donald Trump was going to expose the deep state, he was going to expose all of the secrets that exist inside of the American government. The stuff they don't want you to know. It was the Kennedy stuff, it was the Martin Luther King Jr. Stuff, and it was kind of the Epstein stuff, right? Kinda. Because you'd ask Donald Trump, hey, you're gonna give us the truth about Kennedy? You're gonna give us the truth about King? Are you gonna give us the truth about Epstein? And he gonna. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, sure. Why not? Why wouldn't I want you? And so they've been very cagey on being as transparent with people as they said they were gonna be about the Jeffrey Epstein stuff, Right? Because Jeffrey Epstein was an equal opportunity scumbag left and right. And now you have his hand picked heads, high ups in the FBI, people who have access to all of this stuff, saying, hey, there's no there there. There's no conspiracy there. Jeffrey Epstein actually killed himself after the Trump wing, the Trump wing of the maga. Right. Feeding the conspiracy beast on this particular thing for years and making it. Making it a partisan issue, making it an issue where, look, this is the big Democratic cabal that doesn't want you to know. This is the left and they're bloodthirsty for children and all of that stuff that's tied up into all of that. Now you got Cash and Dan right there and they're saying, hey, there's no there there. This wasn't the deep state. This wasn't anyone who got to him. He killed himself because he didn't want to face trial. They're so scared of the truth here. Trump has. He's actually pacifying his base over the Epstein stuff.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I understand the importance. This is one of those things where I'm like, I could care. People are so fascinated on whether or not it was a government conspiracy or whether or not it was a suicide. Why are you looking at me like that? It's one of those things where I'm like, what?

[Anna Tubbs]

What?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Van you pointing, you're squinting your eyes. What.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You don't want to know about the Epstein stuff. Why? Why?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Shut up, man. I just. It's just one of those things where I'm just like, there's so many bigger issues and this is so ridiculous because you had people like Dan, what is it? Bongino, who on his podcast was talking about how this was a government conspiracy, which is so interesting too, because Trump was the one who was president at the time this was happening. So are you saying Trump covered it up? Trump's part of the problem. Now that you are a deputy director of the FBI, you're going back on it and you're like, well, I've seen everything. It's not quite what we thought it is. This was a suicide.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And also remember that Trump's ag, Pam Bondi was the AG in Florida when a lot of this stuff was going on. And a lot of people feel like she didn't go after Jeffrey Epstein with the vigor that someone in that position should have gone after him with. I'm Googling right now, Rachel Lindsay, Jeffrey Epstein.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Stop. Don't do that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm just making sure.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But Mac is upset with these comments that came out with Cash, Patel and Dan. They're upset because they're saying, hey, we Want to know what's up? We want to know if this was a government conspiracy and they are upset that Dan and Cash are turning on it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, we'll see. I mean, there's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We'll see how far that goes online right now. They're upset.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, yeah, we'll see. We'll see how much they actually care. Because it's funny that they feel like, you know, the Magga wing of the party represents them and their interests. They're being told to shut up on the Epstein thing while that MAGA wing takes money from Qatar and then raises the price on everything. It's just interesting. Interesting. It's interesting to see if there's actually a stomach for how different Donald Trump is governing. Or maybe he's not governing that much different than he said he would. But when it was black people and Latino people and women and trans people and gay people getting fucked over, you're okay with it. But now he's basically saying, fuck you. We'll see how much of a stomach they have for that. All right, Atlanta.

[Donnie]

A new report tracking the effects of gentrification and black displacement has found that Atlanta has lost more than 40% of its majority Black census tracts between 1980 and 2020. This is according to the National Community Reinvestment Coalition. They say that Atlanta has lost more than cities including Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans and Philadelphia. Only la, Washington and New York have lost more.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Didn't you talk about this, didn't you bring this up when you said that Atlanta's not the black mecca that it used to be of yesteryear?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So I'm not gonna say that Atlanta's not the black mecca. Okay? I'm not gonna say that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, it's not.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, just hold on, okay? I wanna get an Atlanta representative on the podcast to talk about this because there's been a lot of ATL propaganda that's been going on, right? And a lot of people in Atlanta shout out to them, they will say, hey, no, black people move to Atlanta. Atlanta, we full. Apparently not. Apparently not. Like, apparently Atlanta is not full. I'm not gonna say Atlanta's not the black mecca, though, because I will say this, though, there is a sense, a sense of black empowerment and forward facing blackness that exists in Atlanta that doesn't exist in too many other black cities. There's a sense of we got it in Atlanta that exists in Atlanta that I can't think of. Even when you go to New Orleans, New Orleans is a black city with black mayor and all of that stuff, you don't really get the feeling in New Orleans, to me that black people run New Orleans, right? There's a lot of catering to tourists. Those tourists don't happen to be black. And when you go to New Orleans, you see a clear separation between who the haves and the have nots are. And that separation, in my opinion, reflects age old issues that we've had in South Louisiana with resource disbursement. But in Atlanta, you do get that feeling. You do get the feeling that black people run Atlanta. You, you do get the feeling that it's this nice, beautiful place that black people run. The question is whether or not that's actually true and whether or not it's just ATL propaganda from people like Isaac Hayes, who I'm bringing on this podcast.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, this is why I say it's not the black Mecca anymore, because to the latter thing that you were saying, the numbers reflect something totally different. I think when you talk about it being the black Mecca, you're talking about what it used to be, how historically who came from there, how they were running the city, how everywhere you looked it was back in the day. It's like there were black neighborhoods. Now those neighborhoods have disappeared. People are running to the suburbs because they can no longer afford to live in Atlanta proper because of gentrification. They're talking, you're talking about history. When I, when I, when I'm in Atlanta, it feels historic. I think about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. I think about how the airport's named after Mayor Jackson. I think he's, you see all these murals and all this, this history there. And I think that's what, people wouldn't call it propaganda, but I think that's what people are holding onto when they say the Mecca of it. But the reality of it is, and I don't know if this is Hollywood coming to Atlanta. I don't know if it's, you know, white flight is now coming back into the city. And we're seeing that not just in Atlanta, you're seeing this in other cities as well. But Atlanta is the number one city for income inequality in America. The median household income for black families is one third of that of whites. Like poverty really exists. So if you're really talking about black people in Atlanta, it's not a Mecca situation. They're talking about the past.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So what they would say, though, this is what they would say. They would say that there are more black millionaires in Atlanta because we had these conversations after we did our ill fated cities. Listen. They would say that there's more Black millionaires in Atlanta. They would also say that income for black Americans in Atlanta is one of the nation's leading, one of the nation's leading cities for income that black people are making. They're making a lot of money in Atlanta. And if you compared it to other places in the country, that you would see that Atlanta is more well off, as far as that's concerned. What you're saying, though, is important, and let me tell you why a study like this is important. And it's important to have this conversation about a city that, you know, I love. I love the city. I love going there. I find myself there quite a lot. It's important because if there is no wealth, if there's no wealth, then there can be no power. If there's no wealth, there can be no power. Wealth is durable. Income is not. Wealth is what you have and what anchors you and what allows you to stay in a place for a long period of time. Income, you have that coming in, and your spigot can be cut off at any time. You lose that job, that business dries up. Whatever, whatever your wealth, the homes you own, particularly home ownership, the home you own, the land you own, how diversified you are. When we're talking about building black economic power and black economic staying power and roots, wealth building is very important. Your income should translate into wealth, but it doesn't always do that. If we don't, like, do two things. One, have the financial literacy to understand how to do that, and. And two, have the drive and the will to want to set down those roots. And if we have to use one American city where there's a lot of black people making a lot of money as a case study as to why wealth building should be paramount, then we gotta do that, right? Particularly a city that has such a reputation of being the black Mecca, because if it's the black mecca, it needs to stay there, stay that way, because if not, property values go up, everything gets more expensive, and then black people can't afford to stay there anymore. And that's the same thing that's happened in other places, right, which is what you were just talking about. Let's get into the topics now. You think so you want to or no fucking do it.

[Donnie]

Donnie Former President Joe Biden was diagnosed with an aggressive form of prostate cancer, according to a statement from his personal office. It reads, last week, President Joe Biden was seen for a new finding of a prostate nodule after experiencing increasing urinary symptoms. On Friday, he was diagnosed with prostate cancer characterized by a Gleason score of 9 with a metastasis to the bone. They say while this represents a more aggressive form of the disease, the cancer appears to be hormone sensitive, which allows for effective management. Uh, he released a statement this morning. He says that he and his family are reviewing treatment options with his physicians and.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Donnie]

Thoughts on this breaking news.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

First and foremost, anytime somebody's diagnosed with cancer, the first thing you want to say is prayers, thoughts, good energy and well wishes to the Biden family. Right. He's 82 years old and he's been diagnosed with very aggressive form of cancer. So that's the first thing that you say. Right. There is going to be a political discussion surrounding this, of course, two reasons. One, this announcement comes at a time when the Biden presidency is under very specific scrutiny from a book that was written in part by Jake Tapper that is litigating Biden's mental acuity, his sharpness, and is telling a story that behind the scenes of the Democratic Party machine, Joe Biden was showing the fact that he wasn't up to the job, forget about the campaign, that he wasn't up to the job, and that there was a massive cover up from a lot of people to make us believe things about the former president that weren't true. And that story's not going away. It's not. The American people were told over and over and over again that President Biden was fine. That while of course, there were signs of him aging and signs of him slowing down, that in meetings, in briefings and conversations, that he was sharp as attack, he was on the ball. Then there, of course, was a very public debate between him and Donald Trump where that obviously was not the case. And shortly after that, the decision was made to rotate him out of the campaign and bring in Kamala Harris. She had 107 days the election went the way that it did. So a lot of people are gonna be wondering for a long time how with it Joe Biden was and why the Democrats didn't get somebody else ready to run and why they didn't have handing off or prime or whatever, all of that stuff. Now, though, so two things. So you have that right, and you have this announcement coming in the wake of that, which would make some people say that this announcement is timed to take some of the sting away from any criticism around his presidency or surrounding this book. Secondly, this is also gonna raise the question with a lot of people of how long he's been sick and whether or not they knew that he was sick and whether or not any signs of slowing that we've seen from President Biden. Whether or not that was due to this diagnosis that we see now. I tried all day yesterday. One of the hardest things to do is, is to get an oncologist on the phone. Cause I tried to get an oncologist on the phone all day yesterday. I had my friends reaching out to oncologists that they know I was trying to get an oncologist on the phone. I went to Twitter with this. You're laughing, Rachel, but that's what I do for the pod. Okay. I was trying to get to an oncologist because I want to know the timeline on this entire thing to kind of get a feel on whether or not someone whose health is tracked as directly as a president's health is tracked can then just get this diagnosis, how fastly this can come on you, how fastly this can become a thing. So we have some messaging that we can give to people, but I wasn't able to do that. I'm still on the hunt for that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know if that would really be able to determine. Yes, he might be tested like as far as, you know, a cognitive test or you know, his annual physical, but I don't know if that would have shown up or anything like that. Everything, I don't know. But please continue on your hunt. This is the sad thing about all of this or the disturbing or troubling thing. All the years that Biden has had working for the government, holding a position in power, this is what people will talk about. This is going to be his legacy and rightfully so, because of the way things were handled. Everything he does now comes into question because what has been proven is that we couldn't really trust what was coming from him, what was coming from his camp and the people who were speaking on his behalf. This was a well oiled machine that whether they were trying to preserve their own power, the advisors that were around him, whether it was Biden, because I was reading something that said, you know, when Obama tried to convince former President Biden that he needed to step aside because he didn't have all his bearings, he wasn't in the same mental and physical health that he was when he started this, that a lot of that Biden had a chip on his shoulder because he felt like he should have ran in 2016 and President Obama put up or backed Hillary Clinton. That's something that I read too. So it seems like there was this pride from Joe Biden, from maybe being looked over in 2016 and then not Wanting to be a one term president or what he and his people said that he thought he could win, beat President Trump and Kamala Harris couldn't. Whatever it may be, his pride is his downfall. And now people don't trust anything that he has to say because of how he handled the end of his presidency and this last campaign. And it's really sad. I like to believe that this announcement of his cancer was not timed to distract from this book and the narrative of the lies that were being told to the American public, that this alternate reality that this alternate reality that he was living in and the people surrounding him were telling him that he could do this job that he clearly couldn't. I would like to think he just found out he had cancer. But whatever the truth is, nobody's gonna believe that because of how everything has been handled these last couple of years.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

All right, so I do have a text from a doctor that I know. Okay. This is a very, very high up doctor.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's what it says. Cancer is never diagnosed the moment it happens. It depends on the type of cancer, what the typical delay is between the cancer onset and detection. That in part depends on where the cancer is, whether there is any screening test for it, how often screening tests are done, et cetera. There's controversy about doing a PSA blood test routinely for prostate cancer screening because other things other than cancer can make that test go up, leading to unnecessary follow up tests in some of those people. In addition, because prostate cancer grows very slowly, the prognosis is often not precisely dependent on the exact time it is discovered. Obviously, we do not know when he was diagnosed with prostate cancer and if there was any delay before going public with that information. We do not know if his cancer had been detected earlier, which whether it would have made any difference clinically in terms of treatment options and prognosis. That is from a doc with no dog in the fight. All right. It's from a doctor with no dog in the fight. Right there. Okay. So it doesn't seem as if there's any wool pulling or any leg tugging.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

As far as it relates to Joe Biden, I'll say this though. I. I can't fucking stand politicians. I can't stand them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I get em.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

There's not one politician, not one that I trust. There are some that I know, there are some that I have conversations with, but there's not one politician that I trust. I do trust in policy. I believe in the ability to have a legal perspective on something that will affect people's lives and I trust politicians as far as they will advocate for policy, but shit like this is the reason why I don't. If we are legitimately talking about the lives of people, their bodily autonomy, their right to vote, who gives a fuck whether or not you were passed over in 2016? There is a degree of this that is so career driven, that is so singular and selfish that it disgusts me. If you're selfish when it comes to movie roles, if you're selfish when it comes to rapping, if you're selfish when it comes to playing an NBA, if you're selfish when it comes to your job at a call center, if you're selfish, get it? All of that stuff. If you are, in fact selfish when it comes to decisions that materially affect people's lives, clean water, once again, bodily autonomy, the police, all of that stuff. If you're putting yourself in front of those people, if you're not doing what's best for those people, then I can't respect you at all. It doesn't matter who you are. I'm not necessarily saying this about President Biden. I am saying this in general. If it fits with him, then it fits with him. But that's kind of the David Hogg thing that I was talking about. Look, I get it. I get that people want certain politicians. They feel safe with them over the amount of time that they've been in a place. I get that they're gonna vote, go out there. If you vote for somebody, whatever, that's who you want. What I'm saying is that who are the people in politics right now that are truly and honestly people First? Who are they? Who are the people that would take less, that would have less power, that would have less influence? Who are the behind the scenes workers? Who are the people that are willing to sacrifice to be hurt, harm, and injured politically? And their bank accounts so that some kid in Baton Rouge can drink clean water? Who are you? I'll vote for you. Whoever you are, whoever you are, wherever you are, whoever you might be, if you give a shit. Huh?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I said, would you even believe them?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's a good question. I mean, that's a good question. That's a good question. I guess I would have to see.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It like, that's where we are right now.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I don't know, man. I don't know. I'm just hearing a lot about specific individuals, but not about people. And I know I sound like a broken record. I know it's, like, obnoxious to sit on here, like I'm on a High horse criticizing all of these people that have spent a life in public service. But I don't give a fuck about the elections in 2016 and who should have been this. I don't give a fuck about your committee leadership. I don't give a fuck about people like muting your. I give a fuck about people that are willing to go to bat for individuals who need somebody to advocate for the things that American citizens should have. I give a fuck about people who give a fuck about people. I'm just sick of having conversations about political pettiness and everybody climbing over each other. Who should have got this, who should have done this, who should have been here, who should have been there, man, the whole time that's happening, somebody's getting fucked over. And I just want to know, whoever you are, who cares about that? Who gives a fuck about that? Who cares?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I think that that's what. When people talk about the years of service that Joe Biden has given to the country, it's almost as if it doesn't mean anything because at the end of the day, you were willing to sacrifice or put in jeopardy American citizens in order to satisfy your own pride. So it's like, did any of it even matter? Was it all very self serving as long as you were able to stay in power? Or were you really about the people? Because this is a man who is. I'm blue collar. I'm about the people. I didn't go to an Ivy League school. I come from a different place. I'm one of you guys. But then at the end of the day, you were willing to sacrifice all of us in order for a title. And. And then the whole thing went to shit when you had to be moved to the side and put Kamala Harrison at the last minute. So it really comes into question, which is to your point of why you have so much distrust and really why there's a lot of disgust because I'm questioning your service for all these years.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Hmm. Man. I believe in. I believe in the right to vote. So I believe in democracy. I believe in equality. I believe in equity. I believe in reparations. I believe in black political and economic empowerment. I'm not perfect on any of these issues. There are all kinds of things that have to have to be litigated. I believe in Americans and their ability to come together and solve problems. But I just don't believe in oligarchy or the elite, small group corporate power that dominates the American political conversation. I don't believe in it. I don't. I Don't believe in it. I don't. This conversation isn't about Joe Biden. The conversation isn't about party. It's about, like, people and what matters to them and for them. And who fucking cares about that? Like, who legitimately cares about that? Who cares about that? Who can I say, hey, you're willing to go up against whomever so that people have what they need in the richest country in America. Just, you know, excuse me. Richest country in the world. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai, who says you can't be the topic of conversation for all the right reasons. The Hyundai Tucson hybrid pairs bold presence with advanced technology and sleek style. It's everything you didn't know you needed in an SUV and then some. Okay, Hyundai. Visit Hyundai USA.com to learn more.

[Ashley]

This episode is brought to you by Prime. Prime. Delivery is fast. How fast are we talking? We're talking a cooler for your snacks, a folding chair, a Bluetooth speaker, and a six pack of your favorite seltzer delivered by tomorrow. Fast.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, yeah.

[Ashley]

Extra napkins, last minute guac bowls, backup phone chargers, even a replacement remote. Fast. I feel like I've ordered all of those things. We're talking everything you need for game day.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Fast, fast.

[Ashley]

Free delivery. It's on Prime.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

All right. Oh, it's glaze of the week time, Donnie. Glaze of the week. Glaze of the week. You're on somebody's meat. It's the glaze of the week. Glaze of the week. Glaze of the week. You sucking dick. Glaze of the week. This week goes to RG3, Robert Griffin III, Heisman Trophy winning quarterback from Baylor, also former NFL quarterback. He is glazing up in a way that we haven't seen in a way in a while. He's glazing Caitlin Clark. So he's not so much glazing as he's surfing on the clip. Surfing the fever played the sky this weekend. There was a play where Caitlin Clark filed Angel Reese kind of hard. And I thought this was the common file. I didn't think this file was like a big deal, but this angel was mad about it. Sparked a back and forth flagrant files came into play. Now whenever there's anything that happens between Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark, we all get together and we ride for our prospective teams. Okay? RG3 decided to glaze in a very specific way. He got into the mind, the mind of Angel Reese. This is what RG3 said after watching Caitlin Clark's flagrant file on Angel Reese. In the aftermath, there's no way Angel Reese can continue the lie that she doesn't dislike Caitlin Clark. I know what hatred looks like. Angel Reese hates Caitlin Clark. Not some basketball rivalry either. Hate. So in this situation, Angel Reese is being accused of hating Caitlin Clark. Now, what RG3 did was take it outside the realm of sports and into the realm of something personal, that there's a personal thing. Right? And, you know, they got on his ass about this, but he didn't back down. He never does. He stepped up in the pocket.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He didn't.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He felt the rush, and he stepped up in the pocket. Stepped up in the pocket. Here's the audio, Donnie.

[Interviewer/Clip Speaker]

So where was this type of reaction last year when Angel Reese got choke slammed by Alyssa Thomas of the Connecticut Sun? Y' all remember that? She got filed so hard, they kicked Aaliyah Thomas out the game with a flagrant two foul. What did Angel Reese do? Nothing. She didn't get up and try to swing on her. You know why the reaction was different? Because of who did it. And there is a lot of history there with Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese. You guys remember last year when Angel Reese celebrated Kennedy Carter getting that flagrant foul on the hip check against Kayla, against Caitlin Clark? You remember that? On the sideline, just.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, baby. Get her. You get her.

[Interviewer/Clip Speaker]

Who celebrates like that for a flagrant foul on another player if they don't dislike that player? Okay, you want some more evidence? Here's some more evidence. Remember last year when they were talking about who gets the credit for the expansion and the eyeballs and the popularity boost of women's basketball, not just the wnba, but women's basketball in general? Because of the spike in the women's NCAA tournament and NWNBA viewership, a lot of people were attributing that to Caitlin Clark, and rightfully so. This is what Andrew Reese had to say. And I quote, people are talking about women's basketball. You never would think they'd be talking about women's basketball. People are pulling up to the games. We got celebrities coming to the games, sold out arenas just because of one single game. Just looking at that, I'll take that role. I'll take the bad guy role, and I'll continue to take that on to be that for my teammates. I know I'll go down in history. I'll look back in 20 years and be like, the reason we're watching women's basketball is not just because of one person. It's because of me, too. I want y' all to realize that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This is one of the most egregious glazes that we've had on glaze of the week. So a couple of things here. Number one, he has. He just doesn't know what. It has no insight into how Andrew Reeves actually feels about Caitlin Clark. Right. Number two, even if all of that was true, even if all of that was true, even if what he's saying is true, what the fuck difference does it make? Like, why is RG3 deciding to baby Caitlin Clark? Right? Why is he treating Caitlin Clark like the most delicate WNBA sports flower that is particularly uniquely vulnerable to bad feelings from another player? Like why? Like, I don't understand why he's running in to be captain, save a Hooper. Like what? Like what? Like what this glaze is. It's the worst kind of glaze. Cause it is. It's glaze out of nowhere.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's not out of nowhere.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Give it up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is who RG3 is. I feel like every single time we talk about him on this podcast, it's the way that he is fascinated and seems to be upset, obsessed with whiteness, particularly white women. In the clip that you're. That we just played there, he's got his white wife right behind him. As he's. As he's belittling black women, there is an obsession, and he has a lot of. There seem to be microaggressions towards black women. He's obsessed with black and white. When he was on espn, I'll never forget when he made the joke about that he was calling a game on Black Friday and he pointed out the fact that he and his co host were black. I don't know if you heard what Ryan Clark was saying on the Pivot.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I don't know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But he said that he. When he works with him, he was constantly making jokes about how much he loved Milk. Remember the video when he was showing us that his wife had an ass?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, I do remember this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Now there is. He doesn't come out of nowhere. Everything about. Not everything, but a lot of what. The corniness that surrounds this black and white and this obsession with his love for Milk, as he used to joke about at ESPN or trying to prove to us how down his wife is.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So let's look a little deeper.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know if I want to say it's self hatred, but there is a fascination he has with whiteness.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So let's bring this up. Let's talk about it. Because he also did this video to where he said, when you take too much melatonin before you go to Sleep, but it's melanin. And so did you see the video where he woke up and his wife went there and then she woke up and she was black? Do you think that RG3 is uncomfortable with his relationship, therefore he's going overboard to talk about these things and do these things. Because you don't think that. Because here's the deal.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is his second white wife. I don't think he's uncomfortable at all. I think he's obsessed. He's so proud about it. And listen, you should be proud about who your significant other is, but the fact that you keep throwing the whiteness of it all versus the blackness is a different. Is something different.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So let me ask you this. Let's stay there. So obviously you should be proud that your spouse is your spouse. If you have a spouse. Right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Proud that your spouse is your spouse. Do you think RG3 is proud that his wife is white?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You think he's proud not specifically of her, but that she's white?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes, I. Absolutely. It is a trophy. And that's. And if he's not saying it, that's how he treats it. He parades her whiteness in front of us and as if we should all be as excited and, like, I don't know, gleeful about the whiteness of it all because he's always making these jokes or videos or comments in regards to this. And so the reason I say that, he's rightfully so, as deserving of the glaze of the wheat. But there are microaggressions in the way that he talks about Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark because of how he centers whiteness in his own life. Like, why would Angel Reese hate Caitlin Clark? There's. She's. They are both stars in this league. They are both decorated players in this league. Um, even in the unrivaled league, Angel Reese has done a lot. She has her own podcast. She has multiple deals. She made so much money when she was in college with Nil. They are both stars in this league, which is why this rivalry is something that we continue to talk about and analyze. It's why when they play each other, it's a packed out house and everybody's all eyes are not just on Caitlin Clark, on Angel Reese, but RG3 can't see it that way because of the way he centers whiteness in his life. And he doesn't even realize he's doing it because the moment you call him out on it, he starts playing the victim. What do you mean? I feel this way about Black women. I have black daughters. It's not the same thing.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's not the same thing. Look, this is what I said. It's a glaze. It's a glaze. That's all I'm saying. It's glazing. Now, I also could have given this glaze to the litany. I want to do a co glaze of the week. All right? To the litany of celebrities that posted the Free Tory petition. That's also glazing. I don't want to get into this too deeply because.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Name them. Name them. Who did that? I didn't see that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, oh, you didn't see this?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, I saw Chris Brown.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Chris did it. Kanye did it. Ty Dollar Sign did it. Drake did it. Like, here's the deal with all of this, guys. I have to be honest about this. So something came out to where they said that Kelsey's bodyguard. Kelsey's bodyguard. The bodyguard of Kelsey made the Stallions friend. The bodyguard of Kelsey overheard Kelsey say that Kelsey shot Meg. The staff.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes. Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The bodyguard of Kelsey overheard this. Not the bodyguard that was in the car that night or the bodyguard that was in and around the case. The bodyguard of Kelsey overheard Kelsey say that Kelsey shot Meg. Thee Stallion. There's a petition out to get Gavin Newsom to let Tory Lanez out of jail. Commute his sentence, free him. Two things. Number one, if in fact Tory Lanez knows that he didn't shoot Meg the Stallion and he is doing 10 years or whatever it is on some bullshit ass code, then Tory Lanez deserves to be in jail. Okay? That's the number one thing. Okay?

[Anna Tubbs]

Right?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Number one. Number one thing. Number two, the entire trial played out. The whole thing played out. The entire thing played out. If Tory Lanez is your friend and you want to see Tory Lanez come home, so be it. But for the people that are trying to sell the conspiracy theory after all of this time that there was some miscarriage of justice that happened in this trial, you're on this man's dick, right? You're on this man's dick.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's no other way to say.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

If you guys are trying to make it seem like for some reason this entire thing could be different. And let me say something that people are gonna probably not like. Let's say that Tory Lanez and Meg the Stallion and Kelce are drunk and they're out for a night, and Tory Lanez grabs his gun and shoots it at the ground, being a drunken idiot, and a couple of the bullets jump up and pop Meg in Her foot. And he's like, oh, my God, I wasn't trying to do that. Now, the act of shooting a gun in somebody's direction is what it is. It's disgusting, abusive, and just out of this world, right? But there is a world where the person that was on that phone apologizing to her, that person faces the world. That person goes, hey, I was not trying to shoot somebody that night. I wasn't trying. I was being a drunken, dumb idiot and putting somebody in harm's way. I apologize to her. I apologize to everyone, the entire thing. And then you throw yourself at the mercy of the justice system, and then we come out having this conversation about how we should treat one another, right? But that's not what he chose to do. What he chose to do was rely on the fuck them hoes defense. That's what he chose to do. Them hoes lying. That's what he chose to do. After making the call, calling her and apologizing to her and seemingly admitting that things got out of hand, that things went too far. Do I believe in my heart of hearts that he was trying to shoot her? I actually don't. I don't. I'll be real. I don't. I don't believe that. I don't believe it. Cause if he was trying to shoot her at the distance and the range she was at, he could have picked up the gun and shot her. What I do think is that he was drunk, being stupid, putting a black woman's safety in peril, and that there are consequences for that. That there are consequences. Shooting the ground, making her dance, like fucking treating her like that, belittling her like that, putting her in harm's way like that. Like the entire. That entire thing. There are consequences for that. But there was a version of this that could have been totally different, but that's not what he did. What he chose to do was leverage the entire cultural conversation around victims and their abusers and the entire these bitches lying movement. He chose to weaponize that entire thing rather than take accountability for what very likely happened that night. And he is exactly where he should be based upon that decision. And crying about it and making it into the civil rights issue of our time ain't going to change none of that. It ain't going to change none of that. He fucked up. And you guys are only making yourselves look stupid and look like people who side with someone that would shoot a black lady. You're only doing damage to yourselves by supporting this shit. And that's coming from a fucked up, nigga. That's coming from somebody who is not the best nigger. That's coming from somebody who is in the muck with the rest of the people. Who's had all the friends that have done this, who's had all the people who's had the uncles that have been in jail, who's had all the. This is not coming from a Harvard educated West Village liberal who has never done anything wrong or never been around anybody that's done anything wrong or has never. That's not coming. That's coming from South Baton Rouge. Van Lathen, the one who. You can't tell the difference from him and the other niggas. Right? I'm saying this is fucked up. Do better. Do better for yourselves. Do better. Nah, do better. And what the bodyguard said. That shit don't matter. It don't matter at all. It's bullshit hearsay. It's bullshit, hearsay. Ridiculousness. It doesn't matter at all. Don't prove nothing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It doesn't prove any kind of innocence. Exactly. Exactly.

[Ashley]

This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. There's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation. It's my Apple card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple Card for your summer travels, apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of July 1, 2025 terms and.

[Anna Tubbs]

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[Donnie]

Snoop addressed the backlash that he received earlier this year for DJing the crypto ball during Trump's inauguration weekend. This was him talking to Ebro Darden. He also Brought this up on the Breakfast Club, but this is him talking to Ebro.

[Interviewer/Clip Speaker]

Snoop takes a performance gig for some crypto cats around Donald Trump's inauguration. You knew the water was gonna be hot, but you went ahead and delved into it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What do you have to say to.

[Interviewer/Clip Speaker]

People now that maybe are feeling some type of way?

[Snoop Dogg]

Well, I think the situation that needs to be explained is that, you know, 30 minutes or 30 years. Right. So how long did I DJ for that night? 30 minutes.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, right.

[Snoop Dogg]

So David Sacks, which is the head of crypto. So say, for example, Ebro is David Sacks. He's been my friend for 15 years. Ebro gets a job from the White House to go do some crypto business when me and Ebro been doing crypto business since it started. So imagine that relationship that I have with Ebro, and he gets the job at the White House. And then Ebro says, hey, Snoop, I have an event that are some very important people there that's gonna help with the initiatives that you wanna do dealing with the community and the hood. We need you to show up. We got a bag for you and a bag for the community. We just need you for 30 minutes. Boom, April, I'm there. Show up, do the show, go back to the public. Man, why he do that for him over here? Why he represent him over here when all I did was something for him over here, for my people over there. But the perspective sometimes is always thrown out of context because the media threw out they comment. I didn't say nothing. So a lot of times people went to defend me and they went to fight for me or say, hey, man, y' all can't say that about Snoop. He did this, he did that. And then you had some people say, well, eight years ago, he said this. But what I say is 30 minute DJ set versus 30 years of real work. Which one matters?

[Rachel Lindsay]

We still must be under glaze of the week, right?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We're not under glaze of the week.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We are.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I decide what glaze of the week is. Patriarchy, nigga. It's my segment.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Listen, I've said it is your segment, and it is great. I've said everything I really need to say about Snoop when it comes to this and the fact that he's still making excuses for what he did. I would rather him actually not say anything at this point, because what he seems to continuously miss is what it represented for him to be there. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that you did it for 30 minutes and you want to talk about 30 years of work. I'm not even saying it erases everything. I'm just saying in that moment, you standing there and being attached to this, when Trump means all these things, when you yourself have spoken out against Trump, you're deserving of the criticism, of the scrutiny, of the disappointment that black people have, because we don't know where you stand after this. And the fact that he's excusing it or not taking into consideration how this affects people or how this is offensive or what this looks like like, makes me feel the same way even more. All the things that I've said before, nothing has changed. So I really would wish he would just stop talking about this and move on.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, he's got to talk about it, right? He's gonna be asked.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But why?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He's gonna be asked.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, well, first of all, just say I did it. Just say I did it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

First of all, David Sacks just on David Sacks. David Sacks authored a book in 1995 called the Diversity Myth, Multiculturalism, Culturalism, Should I say, and the Politics of Intolerance at Stanford. The book is hypercritical of political correctness in higher education. He's also, by the way, political correctness in higher education is just code for having discussions that, to me, offend the white male orthodoxy. He's written Stanford magazine arguing against affirmative action in the United States. And he. David Sacks himself, to me, is an interesting friend to have. Once again, far be it for me to criticize people's friends. I guess you have friends from all over the political spectrum. But he is not just a conservative. How can I put this? He's not just a conservative, but a conservative activist. If you have a friend, and that friend is somebody who you disagree with politically, someone who you have arguments with about political theory or about policy, I don't really have a problem with that. If your friend is an incredibly influential operative, like someone who is actively seeking to end things that benefit black people or to reorganize or realign political discussion or activism in America, I would argue that your friend is doing actual harm. And maybe that doesn't need to be a friend. But, hey, different people have different friends. Stupid's a very powerful guy. Very influential guy. He's very culturally powerful. So the people that he knows are going to be infinitely more powerful than the people that I know. And they're gonna be people not just with opinions, but people who have the opportunity to actually make a real change. I would say that those people are probably people that you shouldn't really be around. If they're trying with their platforms to hurt and undermine the advancement of the people that you care about. Another thing I would tell to Snoop is this is love. This is love. Like what Snoop got from the the event that he DJed, that was love. Love doesn't just show itself in patting you on the back or ignoring what it is that you do. Love doesn't just show itself in support. Love shows itself in disappointment. Like if you're a kid and your dad doesn't come to your baseball game, you actually are disappointed in your dad because of how much you love him. You're disappointed because that person that you love did not show up for you. Right. You don't care whether or not somebody else's dad came or whether or not the social studies teacher came or whether or not the game itself is sold out. You care that that one person that you've loved and care about, cared about for so long didn't show up for you. That's love. The disappointment that we had and have in Snoop is love. That's because we love Snoop so much and because Snoop has been there for us so much. Snoop has been there for us with his league. Snoop has been there for us with his opposition to Trump in the past. Snoop has been there for us in criticizing the social orders that have kept people down. He's always been there for us. And the question that people were asking to Snoop and to people like Snoop is why aren't you there for us now?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And that's a fair question. No one is choosing the 30 minutes over the 30 years. No one is choosing the 30 minutes over the thirty years. No one that I know. But people are asking why people are saying in this position right now where things seem to be so dangerous and so precarious, where there's been a response in America to a perceived shifting of societal values, societal and political values. Why now? Why now?

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's the question.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's even more desperate than it was in 2016 or in 2020. It's post Covid. The economy's changing. The project 2025 is out. Which when you read it, reads like such a fundamental reordering of where we're supposed to go as Americans. We'll talk more about that with Anna Tubbs in a second. But now, at this inflection point, why now? And we felt that way about Snoop because we love him. Not because we loved with a D, but because we love him. And this answer to that is insufficient.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And so with the follow up question.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The answer, well, I'm not The follow up question is like, whatever I'm talking about, I'm not impugning anybody's interviewing. But what I'm saying is this answer is insufficient. This answer is like, forget about what I'm doing and look at what I've done. Yeah, we're in a flat circle here. And we're in it. We're in it. We're in it. Like, we're in it. We're in it with the teaching of black history, we're in it with abortion rights, we're in it with voting rights. We're in it with Trump and his people cutting off the spigot for clean water in Alabama and Louisiana. Like, we're in it. We're in it. And we're asking, are you still in it? Because it seemed like at that party that you were with them. Fair question to ask Snoop.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, we still don't. And it seemed like that's the last thing we saw. So I'm asking the question, where are you now if your friend David Sacks calls you to do another 30 minute set, are you going to do it?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I'm not, by the way. I'm not talking about anybody's interviewing skills. I'm saying because you are correct and that his answers were insufficient. I would have wanted better follow up because I'm not okay with how he answered those questions. I would have wanted. That's all I'm saying.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, I mean, is what it is. But all I'm saying. All I'm saying is that this is love. Love is. People get love fucked up. We all been around love. Love is as much. This is why I love you. Love is. Excuse me. As much. This is why you hurt me. As it is. This is why I love you. Love is as much. Hey, explain this to me. As it is in constant celebration of you. I think sometimes these luminaries, particularly these black ones, they feel like if we're not in constant celebration of them, in constant alignment with what they do, whether we agree with it or not, that we don't love them. There's a real, like, you're not supposed to do this. You're not supposed to take this from me. You're not supposed to criticize me because of this or this or that. That's not love. That's fealty. That's allegiance. I don't have no allegiance to Snoop. I have love for Snoop for what Snoop has done and what Snoop. But like, we not soldiers. We're people. So, no.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes. When you love something, you hold it accountable. You want to see them at their best. You want to. Yeah. So it's just on a Snoop stand, he doesn't feel it. But that. To your point, that's what it is. I want to see the best out of you because I love you. I'm gonna hold you accountable. I hold you in high regard.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So, I mean, this right here, this answer is not good enough. It's. I mean, and by the way, maybe the answer is fuck you, that's cool, too. I mean, for real. I mean, if the answer is. Because there's gonna be some times where y' all disagree with me, and I'm gonna be like, fuck y'. All. I mean, there will be times where. There are gonna be times where I sit up here.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You already have, right?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

There gonna be times where I sit up here. I take all the accountability. I take all the slings and arrows and all of that, but then there's gonna be times where I'm like, ah, y' all. Don't live my life. Fuck y'. All. And I would rather Snoop just be like, fuck you, than to be this type of disingenuous. Because I'm telling you right now, telling you right now, whatever David Sacks is doing for people, which I don't know in terms of crypto for the community, whatever David Sachs is doing for people, he and his MAGA wing of the Republicans are undoing it in the aggregate. They're undoing it in the aggregate, without a doubt. So that is what it is. But there's no. Do I still love Snoop? Yeah, I can't help but love Snoop. Of course I love Snoop. Of course I love Snoop. Yeah, I love Snoop, man. Been loving Snoop. You see Snoop, you're happy, you're proud. Of course I love Snoop, But I don't love what he did. I still don't love what he did, and I don't fucking have to. There you go. Anna Tubbs, Patriarchy. We're taking it on right now. Patriarchy. What is it and how has it affected us? We talk about it indirectly, but we're going to talk about it directly right now with Anna Tubbs. Anna Tubbs has a new book coming out. It's called Erased what American Patriarchy has Hidden from us. It's available May 20th. She joins us on Higher Learning today. Anna, how are you?

[Anna Tubbs]

I'm doing so well. Thanks for having me back. I'm so happy to be here.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Patriarchy is a buzzword. Some people look at it as a very important word to be discussed and hashed out in our Cultural conversations. Others look at it as a pejorative that's thrown at men to justify misandry. Okay, what is patriarchy, and why did you decide to write about it?

[Anna Tubbs]

Yeah, that's such a good question. Patriarchy, its definition, is a system that favors men over women and gives access to resources to men and power and control to men so that they can control women. And our nation was set up as a patriarchal system, and a lot of people don't fully realize that. But I agree that the buzzword of it has made it so that people feel either very defensive when they hear the word patriarchy and feel like they have to protect themselves right away, or in the experience of me telling people what this book is about, so many men have had the kind of opposite reaction where they're like, I love women immediately as soon as I say what I'm writing about. And I'm like, it's okay. We don't. You don't have to prove anything right now. What I say in the book is the opposite of American patriarchy is not a world or a country where women have power over men, but instead, it's a place where we each have power within ourselves. And when we're thinking about that in terms of American democracy, it's about the fact that democracy is supposed to be power vested in the people. And we actually haven't experienced that in the US because we've never all been considered powerful, fully people and human in the US Thus far. And so American patriarchy is actually not in alignment with American democracy, But the opposite of American patriarchy would be where each of us have power, our votes count, no matter what our demographic information is. We have the power to choose what happens to our own bodies, et cetera, et cetera. So we'll get deeper into it. But that's the kind of basic definition of patriarchy, as well as what I'm offering, which is not for women to just control men. It's actually for all of us to just be able to have some control over ourselves.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I like that. I like that a lot. By the way, the echo is back.

[Anna Tubbs]

It is back. I know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was going to power through it. We'll power through it. I'm wondering, does the book talk about how patriarchy couldn't exist without women supporting patriarchy as well? Because I know, you know, Vance said it's something that is hurt. Some people look at the definition as it's women, you know, hurling this in a negative way at men, saying it this way, but it couldn't exist without women supporting it as well. Does the book talk about that?

[Anna Tubbs]

Yes, definitely. So I want to kind of break it down to what I'm saying in terms of American patriarchy, because I do think that's really important. I've seen patriarchy operate across the world. I spent a lot of my life abroad seeing all these different systems and ways of organizing people. But the thing that I'm saying is unique in the US Is that every country defines man and woman very differently. So in the US to be a man means to have access to money, to be able to own land. Our founding fathers wrote this definition into the Constitution, and not everybody was included in that. To be a woman was to be able to reproduce the power of men through children. And so, of course, in the Constitution, women are not mentioned at all. But we do know that in that already problematic, kind of flawed, limited binary, there's one particular group of women that they're speaking about, and then everybody else is kind of cast aside from American patriarchy and dehumanized. And one of the ways in which they are dehumanized is to remove a gendered identity from these different groups of people. And so, of course, throughout American history, we know in black history specifically, that women, black women, were told that we were actually the ones who passed status on to our children, Particularly during times of slavery. If a woman were to have a child, no matter how that child came to be, that child would have the status of mother, even though we were told that to be man in the United States was to pass on your legacy through your children. So that's just one direct example where we are taken away and pushed aside and not allowed into some of the protections that are afforded to the men and women that are considered in that binary. And so one of the reasons a lot of women end up protecting patriarchy, especially white women, is because they actually do have some protection that's afforded to them by it and some security and some recognition of their humanity and their role that they can play in maintaining the power of the men in their lives. And so we thus far have spoken about patriarchy as if it affects all women the same, as if all men play the same role in maintaining patriarchy, when in reality, it's affected us all very differently. And that's one of the reasons why some women protect it. It's also one of the reasons why many people who weren't originally considered part of that system also assimilate to it, also try to protect it, because they feel that that will allow them access to being Treated as human. And so they're sort of tricked into maintaining a social order that never included them. Everybody kind of plays a role in thinking that this is the most important thing that we have to protect, which is this identity of man, identity of woman, because it's how we've made sense of our role and our place, and we've really been taught to fight for our right to be gendered in our nation.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well said. So I love books like yours because it is examining an America that we hope to live in, and it asks questions about the evolution of the country into something that's more equitable and looks at freedom in a broader scope. I think the central tension for me is that the framers and the founders never really intended that. You know, they were sort of. They were anti democracy, right? Yeah, they were anti democracy, they were anti woman, they were anti black, they were anti pretty much everything. It's really interesting that the documents that they created talk so much about the natural right of man when they had such a narrow view of what man is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

How do we negotiate that central tension? Like we're playing 100, 200, 300 year away game and we're trying to reimagine all of the definitions inherent to that, yet some people are fighting to maintain that same type of deal. And that's the push pull that I feel like books like yours really interrogate. How do we do it? Like, what do we do?

[Anna Tubbs]

Yeah, that's such a good question. And I agree. We're 250 years into this battle, and so when we see it play out to this day, when we see the reelection of President Donald Trump and so many people are shocked by it and surprised by it, that's really why I wanted to write this book, is to demystify it and remove that shock and awe and surprise. This is the system and it's operating the way it was designed to. And we have to just go back into thinking of the Founding Fathers and what they envisioned for their nation after they win the revolution. And they're seeing this revolutionary spirit across the country and they feel afraid that they're going to lose the thing that they were fighting for. They were fighting for their power. And so you see, many historians actually have broken this down before, and I intentionally use white male historians that I quote in that part of the book to explain from their perspective that the Founding Fathers wanted to get disorderly men in line. They wanted to make sure women were going to be subjugated, that they weren't going to be included in the Republic of men that they were trying to build. So it wasn't hidden. It wasn't something that they were apologetic about. They felt that that was the way that they could maintain power, and that is how the nation needed to be organized. This was their opinion. And they turned their opinion into a system by writing laws and making it so that if we did not follow those laws, we would then be punished. So then it feels like something that's natural and ingrained and unavoidable, even though from the beginning it was just a story that they made up and their opinion. And so when we are able to see it that way as something that's just made up and something that we can re envision, that gives us a lot of power. And it makes it clear just how fragile something like American patriarchy is, how easy it is to see that it doesn't include all of us. It clearly is actually quite unimaginative. It's very rigid. And the more rigid something is, the more breakable it is. And so that is the kind of the tug of war that we've been playing since 1776, when the Constitution was written and the Declaration of Independence was signed, is coming up against this very rigid and limited view of the world, one that consistently has tried to erase anything else that shows that we can live differently, we can make different decisions, and we can really take those ideals of what a democracy can be, which is every person matters in that nation, and every person's voice will be heard. We can actually take the tools and make them our own. And one example that I use of that when I was speaking about black women throughout history before, is that by law, we are the only ones who have been told that our children were somebody else's property, that we were the givers of non life through our children. But black women have never believed that. Even if the law said that. We've never said, oh, I agree, I am not a person, My children are not people. And instead we've said, that's wrong. And I know differently. And I'm going to fight for our laws to reflect my vision of the world, which is that I am a human being. My children are certainly the most precious human beings. They deserve to be protected. And I'm going to fight for this nation to be worthy of my children. And so we have this incredible ability to always see beyond what's being offered to us and to use those tools at the same time to rewrite the law, rewrite the policy, and actually get us closer to a vision of democracy that we have yet to fully see in our nation.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Can I say something real quick? Just jump in real quick. This is very important. And I have to name this. So years ago, when I was having the back and forth at TMZ with Gargamel the rapper, right? And Gargamel the rapper was saying, 400 years, and you guys didn't do anything. 400 years, and you didn't do anything. This is why historical context is so important. Mothering was an act of revolution. Mothering, being a mom was an act of revolution. Getting married was an act of revolution. Like, there were so many things that our ancestors did to assert their humanity and go against the forced status quo that they weren't people, that they did every single day. And you have to have an accurate understanding of your history and what your history is to be able to get that.

[Anna Tubbs]

Absolutely.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What she just told you was that the idea that you couldn't be a mom, that your children were somebody else's, that black women never accepted that. They didn't. They fought for their children, they fought for their families, and they continue to fight and continue to fight to this day. But you wouldn't know that unless you pick up a fucking book and you read about it. That's the type of shit that pissed me off anyway. Go ahead, Rachel.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, you're right. It's. Your take is so. Like, even hearing you speak, it's so positive. And it's so hard to be positive and optimistic in the current climate that we're in. And I know this book offers, as you were just saying, the tools to dismantle the system. Do you think that that's possible?

[Anna Tubbs]

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely do. I am a very optimistic person. And I know I'm not the first to say this, but not all of us have the privilege of being pessimistic. You know, we, like, can not just sit here and think, let's just give up and put our hands up in the air. Instead, it's been as. And the tradition of black women has been in this nation. We have to keep fighting. We have to believe. We have to have faith. We have to think we can create something new. Because the status quo is not serving us. It's not working for us. It's really not serving anybody. It just feels that much more obvious for us. And so when you understand the vulnerability of American patriarchy, when you understand that it's just this story that's made up, it really removes its power and allows us to feel ready to do something else. And I think what we're seeing right now, with the reelection of President Trump and the constant fear tactics and the constant dehumanization is a recycling of something we've seen before. We're not new to this. We're actually very deep into the fight where we're revealing how vulnerable it is. And that's why they're doubling down on book bans. They're doubling down on taking down statues of black heroes. They're doubling down on their attack on trans identities. Because these are all signals that something else is available to us and always has been. And so I often say, you know, we don't hear the phrase, we don't want history to repeat itself. And that's certainly the case. That's true in some cases, but it depends what history you see yourself as being a part of. I'm a part of black women's history, and I very much want that to repeat itself. This legacy of saying, we do not accept this dehumanization and we will fight and we will accomplish incredible changes across our nation. And our country is relatively very young. I did my degrees, my graduate degrees at the University of Cambridge in England. And I remember putting on my hoodie the first time, One of the ones that was given to me, and it said that the university was founded in 1209. And even though I knew this, just seeing the number, I was like, whoa, that is crazy. 12 times. Our country is a baby country, and in a lot of ways, we have made incredibly fast progress. And I'm not saying fast enough. I'm not saying that we're where we need to be. But the progress that has been made is entirely because people who were dehumanized said, we do not accept this, and we will fight for better. And we have very proud of that fight, and we have to maintain that fight. And maintaining that fight is believing that we can accomplish something else, because otherwise, what are we fighting for?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Last question already?

[Anna Tubbs]

That was fast. Okay, great.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. It's enough out of you. So I am an agent of the patriarchy. I know this, Okay? I know this. I can't help it, right? I do my best, but every once in a while, I have a thought, and I'm like, ah, an agent of the patriarchy. I think most men are the way that we're socialized, and it's something that you. You have to first admit it, right? If I was asking you, what's one thing that a man can do inside of himself? Okay, the book is erased. What American patriarchy has hidden from us? What's one thing a Man can do to fight the patriarchy in himself and in society. I'm not telling you. I'm not marching with a pussy hat on or anything like that. Cause most guys aren't gonna do that. You know what I mean? You've seen the marches and stuff. I'm just saying most guys aren't gonna. But if there was one thing that you could do that is, like, available to you, that you can be like, I am a little bit better. I'm fighting the patriarchy. Anna Tubbs, what would you say that that was?

[Anna Tubbs]

Okay, I have to give you one thing, but on different layers. So I'm gonna give several answers, but, like, one thing on the other.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This is the problem with you women. I asked you for one answer about the patriarchy, and look at you now. You're going back and back. You're getting mouthy, Anna. You're getting mouthy.

[Anna Tubbs]

Look at me taking your instruction and being like, great. I see that you've given your guidance, and I'm gonna do what I want to do still. But the first layer is, yes, internally, you do have to ask yourself, why do I think I'm supposed to have control over other people? Why do I think I can cat call somebody on the street? Why do I think? I'm not saying that that's what you do, but why do I think I am supposed to assert my opinion on other people and how they're living their lives? That's like the internal reflection, number one.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Anna Tubbs]

Why do you feel that way about your place in the world? The second part is the layer is our relationships in our marriages, in our parenting, those of us who have children. Why are we trying to tell other people to fit this category or what they're supposed to do in life? Do I really expect that my wife is supposed to kind of just follow my lead? Why just really interrogate that? That you can start to think of the ways in which this system is also a playing role in all of your relationships? Because I guarantee you that it is on the community side, it's how do we meet each other's needs? Even before this becomes national change, what can we do to create more community, more interconnectedness? That is the opposite, again, of American patriarchy. It's stop thinking so much about the individual. It's more about how do we together meet each other's basic needs? And then the final layer is on the national layer. How do you vote and what are you voting for? Are you voting to maintain a status quo and a hierarchy where certain people have access to resources that other people do not? Or are you voting for everybody to have their needs met so that they can have power within themselves, that they can, can really fulfill their own potential, so that they can make the choices that serve them best? So I gave you an answer on every level to start with, but the book gives you the entire, I guess, playbook from the moment we're born until the day that we die.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Wow. Wow.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Last thing for me. I just want to say I think it's very courageous for you to write this book, period, but specifically in the times that we're in now. And I'm. And we love having you on this podcast and we want to support you in all ways and we want our thought warriors to do the same. I'm wondering, have you received any pushback for writing this book?

[Anna Tubbs]

Yeah, I'm already seeing some of the pushback, but it's to be expected. You know, this is going to, like, get a lot of people riled up, but I think that that's what makes it so necessary, truly. I think people feel so defensive of this, they don't even know why. They don't understand why they care so, so deeply about the gender, social order. I say this a lot, that one of the most successful moments for President Trump's campaign was when he put out an anti trans ad. And that this was the thing that so many people felt they could relate to, you know, that like, the objective truth of man and woman. And it's just, it's fragile. It's really not the case. We can see, and I trace it in the book, the erasure, for instance, of indigenous cultures and belief systems that acknowledged more beyond the gender binary. And so if somebody has to work so hard to make something seem like the only way, if we have to again, erase stories, if we have to destroy people, whole groups of people, if we have to write laws and really force people into these boxes, then how could we continue to say that it was the natural way of doing things? And so, yes, to answer your question, I've had a few people who, I mean, most of my ratings thus far have been great. The reviews have been awesome. So I'm very grateful for that. But you're always going to have those people who are like, one star. This made no sense. This woman's trying to blow it all up. Or, you know, I had a white woman who was like, this is very painful for me to read. I've been a feminist my whole life, and how dare she say that we're not doing, you know, well it's fine. We're gonna be okay. I hope it helps enough people and opens enough eyes and this helps us understand what we're facing on a national level, because this really does explain it. And I. Throughout the entire election and the season, I kept saying to my husband, I'm like, this is not gonna go well. Sadly, Project 2025 is real. This is a return to the original social order because we never fully departed from it. So hopefully this can really put the lens on it and we can shine the light and really debunk all of the mystery behind the shared enemy we have.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. Interesting what you said about the erasure of indigenous cultures where women had different roles in the culture here and both, you know, in the homeland where we come from, we could go into a much deeper conversation about why Western European culture is so oriented around male and maleness. But I'll let my man Shaka Bars talk to you guys about that. Go follow Shaka Bars if you want to get deep into it, because we're not ready for that conversation on Higher Learning quite yet. But we are ready for your book Erased what American Patriarchy Has Hidden from us. It's available May 20th. Anna is also the author of the Three how the Mothers of Martin Luther King, Jr. Malcolm X and James Baldwin Shaped a Nation. All of this woman propaganda she's out here throwing at us right here. We love having you on the podcast. Thank you for joining us on Higher.

[Anna Tubbs]

Learning, and thank you so much for having me. So good to see you both.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Rachel. Antitopes was great. Let me ask you a question. Patriarchy scale, 1 to 10. 10 being completely evolved, 1 being fucking you, Patriarchy, nigga. You Captain P. All right, what would you give me? What's my rating?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, God.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I mean, rate me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're aware. And I think that that's. That goes.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm looking for the real uncut. I'm looking for the real uncut, you know? Don't. Don't, baby.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I would give you a seven. I would give you a seven. I would give you seven.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

A seven. Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes. Because I think you're aware. You're very aware. You recognize it in other people. Even on this very podcast, you've called out people who have. Who do things that conform with the patriarchy. I don't think you're afraid of what other people have to say when you do. That is your conversation with Joy as well. So, I mean, to me, that's definitely a passing score. Seven.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Donnie. Donnie, you can't give me one. Ashley, what would you Give me. What's your patriarchy score for me?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I would give you.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Hmm.

[Rachel Lindsay]

A six.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I knew she was gonna go less than me.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She couldn't give you an eight.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay. Cause I can't. Okay. I do think sometimes that niggas who. They scores are too high. Like, if you got a nine, we gonna find out some shit about you. I really.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What do you think Donnie is?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Donnie's an eight. All right.

[Donnie]

Just under a nine.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was going to say nine, but.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The only problem is we haven't heard Donnie say enough words.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's true.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So we don't know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It is true, Donnie.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Like, we don't like. We don't like. We don't know we like. If you get Donnie Donnie, probably an 8, but it would be.

[Donnie]

I feel like people's scores should fluctuate. Like, I'm currently an 8 or a 9 with y', all, and my score could change in the future depending on my words or actions. That's. That's life.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Um, look, we gotta get out of here. The reality is this. It's higher learning, baby. We upping this bitch. Okay. Rachel, when are you back?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Uh, Wednesday.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Before we leave, I want to ask a question.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Got a lot of questions today.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I do. I'm hyped up. Does it make you an asshole to think something, or does it make you an asshole to say it?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Say it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So thinking it doesn't make you an asshole?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, because I might not know. So you'll be a private asshole, right? Because if you think something, we all have thoughts, right? And sometimes our minds wonder and it's like, whoa, whoa. Like, dial it back. But to say it, well, then you're putting that thought out in the atmosphere, and other people have to receive what you're saying, so it may or may not affect them. So to say it to me makes you more of an asshole.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so let me ask a question about whether I'm an asshole or not. Situation that happened a while ago.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So you're gonna say I didn't say it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So I was talking to these. Talking to these ladies, and they're talking about, like, the astrology thing, you know, like, your moon is in Rising Sun, Aries moon, Rising sun, all of that stuff.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's a big conversation topic in la.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's a big conversation topic in la. Like, when were you born? What time were you born?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm big on it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You're in Aries, but You were born April 16, so you're almost a Taurus. So you're in Aries. But you're a Taurus. But then you were born under the sign of whatever. Like, have me calling my mama, ask me what time I was born.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, good. What's your moon and rising?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I don't remember. I can never remember. Okay. I can never remember. Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's important.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, So I don't know. It's. Okay, so I'm listening to all of these ladies, and they're talking and we're doing. They're having fun talking about it. They're having agreements and disagreements. And then I'm on the computer doing work, and a picture of Fred Hampton pops up on the computer. Because going through the pictures and the picture of Fred Hampton pops up. Got pictures of Fred Hampton, you know, posed for Chairman fred most every December 4th. I didn't do it this last year, but whatever. It's a picture of Fred Hampton. And one of the ladies looks at the picture and she goes, is that your uncle or your dad or something? And in my mind, I have to admit what I thought, okay? In my mind, what I thought was, nigga, you know everything about Aries, ram cancer, stick, moon rising back, astrology, world, but you can't recognize Chairman Fred Hampton from a photo. My mind was thinking, this is the problem right here, that we spending a lot of time on shit like this. But this motherfucker doesn't know who Fred Hampton is, Right? Which is very, very, very arrogant of me, I have to admit. All right? This person was, like, 35, 36 years old.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What if she doesn't recognize him on site, but she knows about him and what he represented and what he stood for and his work?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

She didn't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Or how he died. Okay, she didn't see I was trying to give something.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But she knew the movie Judas and the Black Messiah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, did she know he was in it?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I was able to connect the situation. I was able to connect it. I was able to say, oh, this is Fred Hampton's Black Panthers party from Chicago, executed by the police. These were his politics. Executed not by the police, by the American government. These were his politics. This is why he was such an interesting figure. And we had the whole conversation, whatever. So. But in my mind, I was thinking, nigga, grow. Grow up. Grow the fuck up. Am I an asshole?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did you say it?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I did not say it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, well, you said it now. So if she listens to the podcast, she's gonna know exactly what you were thinking.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I already told her. I said, I'm a. I gotta. I was like, I'll be honest with you. I was Like, I'm talking about this on higher learning. No, no, no, it's good. She was happy to be taught is what she said, which is interesting.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, that's very receptive. I mean, I. I don't think this makes you an asshole, because I do think if you don't. If you can't rec. That's why I tried to give her something. Okay. You don't recognize what he looks like, but do you at least know what he meant, what he stood for? And the fact that she's seen the movie, too.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So she saw parts of it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah. Still, it doesn't matter. You saw some of the movie, and I guess maybe it didn't make you curious enough to look more into it. I think that it just speaks to a bigger issue of what is being taught to our people. Like, I wasn't taught about Fred Hansen growing up. That's something that I had to learn as an adult. So I think it just speaks to how. I don't think this makes you an asshole. It just speaks to the bigger problem of we need to be teaching people about our people, about our history.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. So first of all, there's plenty of people. There's. There are plenty of people who, you know, I don't. People and things that I don't know about. Obviously. That's a. That's a thing. There are plenty of people. People and things I don't know about.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So same.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But it. It. In that moment, I was like, damn. Cause we was getting deep into the astrology astronomy bag. We was all over the place. And then I was like, oh, okay. And then the Fred Hampton thing happened and kind of fucked me up. Okay, well, so the first, I'm an asshole. Which I'll do this from time to time, you're saying. No, I appreciate that. I love it. All right. Take theme caps off with do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathan Jr.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm Rachel and Lindsay.

[Anna Tubbs]

Bye, guys.