Black Political Power and Jesse Jackson, With Abby Phillip! Plus, Elections Galore and a Red Alert for Hip-Hop. | Higher Learning | The Ringer

Summary

Higher Learning Podcast Summary

Episode: Black Political Power and Jesse Jackson, With Abby Phillip! Plus, Elections Galore and a Red Alert for Hip-Hop

Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. & Rachel Lindsay
Guest: Abby Phillip (CNN, author of A Dream Deferred: Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power)
Date: October 31, 2025
Podcast: The Ringer – Higher Learning

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode offers a deep dive into Black political power and historical context, with special focus on Abby Phillip’s new book about Jesse Jackson’s presidential runs, the legacy he left for Black politicians, and the Rainbow Coalition. The hosts also analyze key current elections, the internal dynamics of Black political ideology, contemporary tensions in left/progressive politics, the state of hip-hop, and evolving media representation. The tone balances sharp critique, personal reflection, and humorous banter throughout.

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Table of Contents

1. Key Election Discussions & Black Conservatism
2. New York Mayoral Race, Fear, and Political Narratives
3. Prop 50 in California and Democratic Party Dynamics
4. Conversation with Abby Phillip: Jesse Jackson’s Legacy and The Media
5. Hip-Hop at a Crossroads: Red Alert
6. Notable Moments & Quotes
7. Timestamps & Important Segments

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1. Key Election Discussions & Black Conservatism

Virginia Governor’s Race & Black Identity in Politics

• Explored the matchup: Abigail Spanberger (Democrat) vs. Winsome Earl Sears (Republican)
• Discussion on Sears' identity politics ("If it’s about Black women, why don’t I get that same type of situation?")
• Rachel: "Kamala Harris and you don’t represent the same thing... aligning yourself with Trump." [03:59]
• Van: Reflects on how Black conservatives, especially those eschewing anti-Black rhetoric, still face exclusion from Black discourse.
• Rachel on the prospects for dialogue: "I just... that's just not the reality of the situation." [10:28]
• Both hosts wrestle with whether Black conservatism can be separated from the GOP's increasingly anti-Black stance.

Insight:
There’s an ongoing tension within the Black community about inclusion and the types of conservatism that get "policed" or pushed out. Ultimately, neither host feels there is a clean way to separate Black conservatism from the anti-Blackness prevalent in the broader GOP.

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2. New York Mayoral Race, Fear, and Political Narratives

Zoram Mamdani’s Mayoral Momentum

• Van highlights Mamdani’s endurance (amid Islamophobic attacks, old videos resurfacing) in the NYC mayoral race.
• Rachel: "It feels like this is where the direction of the party is going." [19:21]
• Discussion about Jewish community fears and the impact of political narratives:
  • Van: "Is there anything that is undergirding this fear that you have?" [20:31]
  • The difficulty in breaking down deeply embedded fears, especially post-October 7 events.
• Nuanced analysis on the ways the pro-Israel narrative gets weaponized and how it impacts candidates like Mamdani.
• Van draws a parallel between the willingness to jump to the “worst” conclusions about people of color and how he's personally experienced such stereotyping in media (TMZ story).

Key Observations

• There’s a generational split within the Jewish community in NYC regarding Mamdani.
• The resistance of the Democratic establishment to anti-capitalist, anti-Israel-occupation candidates.

Memorable Quote:
"One of the most important things that the world community has to do right now... is be able to intellectually separate the country of Israel from the culture, safety, and protection of worldwide Jewry." – Van [32:48]

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3. Prop 50 in California and Democratic Party Dynamics

• Prop 50: Redistricting reform, seen as a necessary pushback against Republican gerrymandering tactics.
• Rachel strongly supports aggressive tactics from Democratic leaders like Gavin Newsom in defense of voting rights.
• Discussed backlash as seen on Native Land Podcast regarding Newsom and reparations.
• Van: "There’s never a wrong time to advocate for the freedom of Black people. Never. But there’s a lot to be gained from convincing you that it’s not the right time." [44:17]
• The group considers the tension between supporting Prop 50 and pushing for reparations or other racial justice initiatives.

Insight

Black voters are urged not to fall for arguments postponing demands for justice—there is never a wrong time for accountability and self-advocacy.

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4. Conversation with Abby Phillip: Jesse Jackson’s Legacy and The Media

Rethinking Jesse Jackson’s Impact

• Abby Phillip joins [54:30] to discuss A Dream Deferred.
• Abby: “His campaigns had a much more lasting impact than all the other campaigns of those times... it did take 20, 30 years for us to fully understand what the real impact was.” [59:50]
• Jesse Jackson’s direct influence on Democratic rules allowed for Barack Obama’s nomination.
• Deep discussion on whether Black civil rights leaders are unfairly penalized for surviving (as opposed to being martyred)—and how a longer life story opens leaders up to more trivialization or criticism.
• Abby: “He spent a lot of time ... cultivating relationships with white Americans ... He had a message for them.” [68:06]

Media Industry Shake-Up

• Van and Abby discuss the diminishing presence of agitator Black voices on TV news over the last decade.
• Abby: "It has created a void... people are bored by classic voices... they shook the table..." [86:48]
• Concerns over consolidation of traditional media, the Wild West effect of online disinformation, and AI.
• Abby: “We’ve lost the ability to validate what’s real and what’s false. And that’s getting worse…” [89:25]

On Platforming and Responsibility

• They explore how TV hosts decide whom to platform—balancing the need for different perspectives against the danger of amplifying hate or conspiracy.
• Abby: "We evaluate... also their willingness to have a conversation, and we’re willing to take risks... but I don’t like to put people on who are just out in space—Looney Tunes, conspiracy theorists." [79:50]

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5. Hip-Hop at a Crossroads: Red Alert

Crisis in the Charts

• For the first time since 1990, no rap song has reached the Billboard Top 40.
• Van: "This is a red alert for hip hop. I’m serious." [120:29]
• The hosts question whether this is an industry blip, a generational transition, or symptomatic of deeper problems in hip-hop culture.

Diagnosing the Issue

• Van’s thesis: "Hip-hop started off as a culture and it became a hustle." [123:04]
• He laments the ascendancy of celebrity over craft and the lack of meaningful, cultural commentary in mainstream rap.
• Rachel ponders whether it’s driven by changing industry incentives (e.g., TikTok catchiness, shorter tracks for streaming), or audience apathy.

Quote:
“The problem is when the music comes out and we can’t have honest conversation about the music because the celebrity of the artist actually overshadows the music, then what happens is whatever the celebrity produces ends up being good…” – Van [124:09]

Hope for Renewal

• Both hope for a new renaissance where both industry and audience value sincere, substantive artistic effort.
• Van: "Feed that motherfucker, water that motherfucker, or you’re gonna lose it." [136:04]

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6. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Kamala Harris and you don’t represent the same thing. You are a Republican running in the state of Virginia… that is something [Obama] does not do.” – Rachel [03:59]
• “There’s never a wrong time to advocate for the freedom of Black people. Never. But there’s a lot to be gained from convincing you that it’s not the right time.” – Van [44:17]
• “He is a consequential person... It’s just easier to take a small chapter of a man's life and say he was a hero.” – Abby Phillip on Jesse Jackson [57:44, 64:47]
• "We’ve lost the ability to validate what’s real and what’s false. And that’s getting worse because AI is playing a big role." – Abby [89:25]
• “Hip-hop started off as a culture and it became a hustle… If it’s a hustle, it’s something you do to make a quick buck.” – Van [123:04]

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7. Timestamps & Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |---|---------------| | 01:53 | Key elections overview (Virginia, New Jersey, NYC, Prop 50) | | 02:22-12:57 | Race, identity politics, Black conservatism | | 17:14-34:52 | NYC race, Islamophobia, Democratic Party splits, Israel/Palestine nuance | | 40:04-52:00 | California Prop 50 & fighting gerrymandering | | 54:30-71:08 | Abby Phillip interview: Jesse Jackson’s legacy | | 71:08-88:57 | News media, platforming, loss of agitator Black voices | | 88:57-91:40 | The future of traditional vs. new media | | 118:51-136:13 | Hip-hop in decline, industry and cultural analysis | | 44:17, 123:04, 136:04 | Key quotes on advocacy, hip-hop culture, and urgency |

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Final Thoughts

This episode masterfully weaves historical context (Jesse Jackson’s achievements and costs), present political battles (elections, policy debates), cultural introspections (media, music, community) and the urgency facing Black America and progressive coalitions. Through passionate, nuanced, and sometimes humorous exchanges, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay reinforce that advocacy, honest critique, and the preservation of culture can never be on pause—even in the most challenging political climates.

Essential Listening For:
Anyone seeking a full-bodied, reflective, and contemporary take on Black political power, the ins-and-outs of left politics, media representation, and the evolving meaning (and crisis) of hip-hop as culture.

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Episode Highlight:
The interview with Abby Phillip (54:30–109:34) stands out for its nuanced historical analysis, honest grappling with legacy, and candid talk on the state of journalism and representation.

Transcript

[A]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors, what is up? Power learning is on.

[B]

It's Ivan Lakey Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[A]

Elections. Abby Phillip is on the show today. Abby's coming in in a second. We're going to talk to Abby about doing. She did a book about Jesse Jackson, A Dream Deferred. Jesse Jackson.

[B]

Yeah, it's called A Dream Deferred. He said it like that wasn't the title.

[A]

That's the title.

[B]

And you're doing something with her later tonight, right?

[A]

Later tonight at the California African American Museum downtown. It's like on SC's campus next to all the museums and stuff. Abby's doing a talk about the book and I'm moderating the conversation and we'll have fun talking about it. It's Jesse Jackson book. We'll also talk to her about more stuff just like the state of the news. Yeah, some of the backlash, all this stuff. Abby's great. We'll talk to her about it.

[C]

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[A]

It's politics time. There are elections that are happening next Tuesday and they're happening all over the place, but there are five that we want to talk about. The governor's race in Virginia. The governor's race in New Jersey. The mayor's race. I don't know if you guys have heard about this, but there is a. Have you heard? There's a. There's a New Yorkers.

[B]

Yeah, I've heard a little bit about it.

[A]

And then of course, Prop 50 in California. These are the ones that we're Going to drill down on. So Virginia, right now, Abigail Spanberger is facing off. Well, she is facing off with Republican Winsome Earl Sears. Now, this woman is. Sears is really starting to shake things up. Sears call out President Obama.

[B]

I did not see her call out. What did she say about President Obama?

[A]

So Sears is losing the race.

[B]

Yes, she is the Republican.

[A]

She is the Republican. She's down 7%. She's losing the race. I don't know if you guys saw. She had what some people would consider to be a. I wouldn't say a disastrous performance, but if you watch the debate, the debate that she had back in the day is when I first started paying attention to his race. I'm like, oh, it's like they keep going back and forth. I don't know about Sears. All this stuff, whatever. Didn't hear much. In the debate, she called out President Obama. She said that President Obama called upon black men to support Kamala Harris, who was a black woman and chided black men. Chastised them or chastised them, should I say, for not voting for Kamala Harris when some. Sears is a black woman. She says Obama not keeping the same energy.

[B]

Not keeping the same energy for who?

[A]

For her. She says, if it's about black women, why don't I get that same type of situation? Why you laughing?

[B]

I mean, come on, Winsome.

[D]

Why do you laugh?

[B]

Winsome Earl Sears? I mean, I think there's a glaring difference.

[A]

What's the glaring difference?

[B]

Kamala Harris and you don't represent the same thing. You are a Republican running in the state of Virginia. You are aligning yourself with Trump and his policies. And that is something that Obama's president, former President Obama, does not do.

[A]

So.

[B]

So why would he do that? But I think the call out is funny.

[A]

I think the call out is. I think she's making a point about the use of identity politics. Sure, of course she is in our political discourse. And I think she's obviously, obviously, she understands that Obama is talking to black men that he believes should vote for a woman or a candidate that represents their interests. I'm not so sure if he feels the same thing about Winsome Sears. I don't think he feels the same way about her. I doubt he does. She says that slaves did not die in the field so that we could call ourselves victims in 2025. Democrats think minorities can't succeed without DEI highlighting Virginia as the former capital of the Confederacy. Oh, my God. Look, I don't. I'll be honest with you this.

[D]

I.

[A]

She's. She's it's, it's. There's not much to say. She's cut from the cloth.

[B]

She's got all the talking points, especially particularly when she being a black Republican, she's got those down. We're not victims. Let's get rid of dei. She's against transgender policies. It's just like a checklist.

[A]

She wrote a Christian self help book entitled Stop being a Christian Wimp. Stop it. All right. But she is someone who has gone out into business for herself for a long time. We're talking a lot about her in this situation because this is kind of what we are discussing. Let's move back away from the discussion of this particular candidate and a discussion of how we should reconcile intra community politics as far as our relationship with black conservatives. There are black conservatives in this country that feel like they are not accepted as a part of the black intelligentsia, that we do not include them in conversations. Not just them, but we don't include their method of thinking inside these conversations. Now let me ask you a question. Let's say that there's no apparent anti blackness baked into this apparent anti blackness. And what I mean is like let's say you don't get the Byron Donald's we were better off during civil rights or whatever. You don't get some pre civil rights. Pre civil rights. Pre civil rights. You don't get some of the obvious sort of cozying up to the worst parts of the Republican base.

[B]

You know, so you're taking that out.

[A]

Well, this is what I'm attempting to do. I'm attempting to do a thought exercise that divorces itself from the plain reality that a large portion of the Republican base is just straight racist. And in order to be a black Republican, a black conservative, you have to make yourself palatable to that. So what you have to do a lot of times in order to be accepted in those rooms is be a voice that is hypercritical of black culture, of issues within the black community. And you have to kind of stand as somebody that constantly tells black people to pull their pants up. Now let's say we in some way.

[B]

How can you do it?

[A]

Can we do it? We're talking about fucking winsome Sears here.

[B]

But I think that's very important conversation. But I think that that's actually why they feel that like that's why they might feel neglected. Because you can't divorce the two. You can't.

[A]

Okay, okay. Can we, can we just try. Can I just, can I just get the quas. You doing the. You not as A black woman you need to show more solidarity with Winsome Sears.

[B]

Okay? We have nothing in common.

[A]

You don't know that.

[B]

We have nothing in common.

[A]

You don't know that.

[B]

She a Delta, is she?

[A]

Yeah. Damn, I just made that shit up. You believed it. Crazy.

[B]

Well, why would you? Why would I think you would lie to me? Are we having a thought conversation or what?

[A]

Oh, I'll tell you what, though. I'm looking at Winsome's old picture from back in the day. Shit, nigga.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Put the picture of Winsome serious up from back in the day.

[B]

My point being is in her little uniform, feel like they are not a part of the conversation is because they're doing the very thing you don't want to talk about. I think if they do didn't. Cause like, I guess I'm trying to think of.

[A]

I'm asking you, is there room. Forget about the anti blackness that runs rampant inside of the Republican party. You can't forget about it. Guys, just. I know you're. I'm listening. I can feel the audience. And you guys are slamming your headphones down right now. You're cursing out your children. Your van's doing it again. Is there room for small government, fiscally conservative, socially conservative black voices to have substantive conversations and debates with? Now, the problem, as we already said, is you start living in a DEI sucks world, you start living in a tragic blackness world, you start living in a it's okay to teach an ahistorical version of history world and all of that, but as far as what it's supposed to be, what if you don't believe in a lot of government spending? What if you are pro military? What if you are highly capitalistic? Are those conversations worth having intracommunity, when we're talking about someone like a Winsome Sears, are they worth having to you?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I just. Because that's just not the reality of the situation. If it was like. If she was, I don't know, like more like a Michael Steele or somebody like that, then yeah, those conversations could be had. But she's not.

[A]

No, I'm not talking about her specifically. I'm talking about. Is there. The dirty secret? Is this. It's not really that dirty of a secret. Is that there is a conservative streak. There's not a conservative streak. Most of the black people that I know that I talk to are way more conservative than they think that they are. Way more. Way more. And I contend, and have always contended that if the Republican party wasn't so hell bent on Being obviously racist, that they could court more black votes than they are even getting now. They cannot do that because their base is racist. But there is a conservative streak within black America. There's no doubt about it. It's a conservative streak. It's based upon Christian upbringing, proximity to the church and all of that stuff. We know this. Is it ever worth having political discussions with the black conservatives that we know to see if there is some way to be useful in community with them? Winsome Serious is making us have this conversation. Oh, Winsome.

[B]

But we're removing her from the conversation.

[A]

Removing the conversation just because she said President Obama owes her more.

[B]

I don't know, Van.

[A]

You don't wanna do it?

[B]

I just. I get. I understand what you're saying, but I can't divorce it from just like where we are. I get it.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

Listen, we talk about having black conservative voices on here. We've had a black one. Black conservative. No, no, we haven't. Cause we had like Camille and stuff. We've had black conservative voices on here and never were we able to separate blackness or how things impact the black community from the conversation. It's just. It was just impossible to do. That's why I'm struggling. I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm really struggling on how to answer it. Because even we have tried to do that and it's just impossible with where we are right now as a society.

[A]

Yeah, it seems like.

[B]

But you were right about the conservatism. Conservatorism. Conservatism. There I go. So it's one word within the black community.

[A]

It seems like, though, we'll move off this race because, you know, Spamberger's up about seven points right now. It looks like she is going to win.

[B]

And that's great because now a Democrat will be governing.

[A]

It's not great. I don't know if it's great.

[B]

Well, she's a.

[D]

Why?

[B]

Because she's a moderate. More of a moderate Democrat. You rather win some? You rather win some?

[A]

I don't rather win some, but I don't know if it's great. You know, I had a conversation with somebody.

[B]

It's better. I mean, it's better. It's better.

[A]

I gotta look up before I say it's great. I gotta look up Spamberger. Let's do all this.

[B]

You gotta look up who is funding her.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I will say that there's a thing within. So Virginia is one of the states where voting rights are not automatically restored once your sentence is complete as a felon. And she is somebody who supports allowing felons once they've completed their to be able to vote. And so statistically because of this.

[A]

Law.

[B]

That exists within Virginia that affects 1 out of 8 black residents from the conversation. But that is one thing that is a benefit that Winsome has not said that she would do.

[A]

So I had a conversation with somebody who was asking me why I'm not a Democrat and talking about coming into the Democratic Party and stuff like that and how we need to have voices in rumors. And this lady who's very brilliant made a very good case about this. We talked on the phone. But I do think that one thing that I'm trying to get away from is kind of what we just kind of did, which was it's good cuz the Democrat is winning.

[B]

It's better. Would you like for me to use that word? I would rather have her just like for the one example that I gave. I'm not saying she's a perfect candidate. I'm not asking her to be. I understand she's a moderate, which is why I was like, oh, is that why? But she does support things that I'm more aligned with than I am with Winston Merle Sears. So maybe the word I should have used is better. But the fact that that is now being. It's now being taken away from being run by a Republican governor. We've seen what Republican governors do within their states. Sometimes not all of them, but two states, particularly where we come from, that is who I would rather have. So I'm not gonna stop saying I'd rather have that than the other.

[A]

You are right. I do wonder and I want people to respond to me if it is, if it is better for us right now to adopt a very specific, A very specific analysis when it comes to politicians, meaning maybe we don't knee jerk and assume that it's better because the Democrat wins. It is. But maybe in the times that we're in right now where we are sort of redefining what American political effectiveness is, maybe we should always just go person policy. Richie Torres is a Democrat. You know what I mean? So to me I'm really. The specificity of.

[B]

You're not wrong.

[A]

The specificity of these things to me is really important. I just out of the situation now where I see the D and I get happy.

[B]

But I feel like that's the point you always wanted to make. That's where you always wanted to make.

[A]

It never really made me. I'm not saying that it made it don't make me.

[B]

You always wanted to get to that punchline.

[A]

That's not what I'm trying to say.

[B]

But my point is you're right. You're right in what you say. And that's why I say, well, if we remove the party, I can still. Look, I don't know all the policies between these two that are running, but from what I do know so far, that is the one that I would rather.

[A]

Mamdani is up 10 points in the mare's race. Cuomo, Sliwa. Sliwa, who I would never vote for in a million years, but is one of the more entertaining people to watch on the debate stage and in interviews. Don't know what it is. Sliwa kind of has something, would never vote for him. Mamdani seems as if he is going to win. I should say this. There are people that are sowing discord by using polling to suggest that Cuomo is making a late push. And when I say so in discord, what I mean is that they are trying to crater the momentum of Mamdani by saying that the momentum is slowing, that he could lose, that Cuomo is picking up steam. We're seeing Cuomo go places. We're seeing all of the big money interest come in on Zoramdani late. We're seeing all the Islamophobic attacks. We're seeing all of the old videos pop up. People talk about the old videos, resurface the old videos. It seems like he's going to win anyway. What does Zoram Hamdani and his potential win, what does it mean, the fact that he is seemingly surviving all of these attacks?

[B]

Well, I mean, I think it's important to note that this is what the New York City people want. And I think that, you know, we talked about it, we're gonna continue to talk about it, but we've talked about it at great length on the podcast. It's something to pay attention to. It's something that there's momentum within the party. It also shows, as we talked about last week or last episode, whatever it was, with Hakeem Jeffries and him now saying that he supports the Democratic ticket, not Mandani himself? It shows that there's still not the full support within the party. So, I mean, is this the direction the party is going to endorse, like.

[A]

Yesterday or just yesterday?

[B]

It feels like this is where the direction of the party is going. And it feels like with the old heads, as we've talked about, there's the pushback from them there's the hesitant. They're being hesitant to support him. And if they are supporting him, it's a strategic move to solidify their place within the party, not because they. They actually want to necessarily work together or they support the policies of Mamdani and politicians that align with him.

[A]

I had a conversation that was very interesting. I had a conversation with someone that. This is a different conversation. I had somebody completely different. That is in no way what I would call like a crazy, aggressive, Zionist Jewish guy from New York that I know called in to talk about something else, started having a conversation. He said something about Zoramdani. And I was like, wait, what? And he started talking, and I was like, wait, like, you believe that shit? He was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

He believes what?

[A]

He feels less safe as a Jew in New York.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Because he has a belief. It seems to me that he's honestly believing the oppo research and the opposition narrative about Zoram Hamdani, like, hook, line, and sinker, almost everything. And we're having a conversation. I just go, wait, so do you think Mamdani is a terrorist? And he goes, no, I don't think that he's a terrorist, but he goes, I think that his election might signal something to people that made them more brazen, that makes them more brazen to attack Jews in New York City. And I was like, this is such a magnificent leap. Is there anything that is undergirding this fear that you have? Is there anything that you see? Have you seen a rise in anti Semitic attacks since Zoram Hamdani won the primary? He talked about the anti Semitism that he's faced and went through since October 7th. And he's also talked about his children, his wife and all that. We've had the discussion. And, you know, anytime somebody tells me that somebody I know tells me that they're scared, I'm gonna hear them out. I'm gonna hear them out. I'm gonna listen to them. I'm gonna listen to them express themselves, talk about it, and try to talk them through it. But that was the first conversation that I had with somebody that actually believed any of this stuff. Because from my purview of it, I summarily dismiss all of this as just what I believe it to be. Racism, bigotry, Islamophobia, someone that would stand up and tell you that you're gonna be less safe as a Jew in New York because Zoram Mamdani is elected. I look at that as weaponizing the fear and the panic that people had after 9, 11, the fear and panic that people had after October 7th, I look at that as weaponizing that for a political outcome. Right. I can see that. Right. I can see all of that stuff. But also I'm so drilled into all of this. I see the nuance in terms of that. Maybe even like we talked about globalizing the intifada and what the term means and how it was said and how it's taken.

[B]

And that's a lot of what I've had a conversation with someone before, and that's the first thing that they threw out to me when it came to Mamdani.

[A]

Right. So for when you have that conversation and people are talking to you, and I was like, well, what do you believe? Intifada to me, like, what is intifada to you? What does that term mean? And you could talk about the first intifada, then you could talk about the second intifada, then you could talk about what globalized the intifada means. You could talk about how the term is used, what actually an intifada actually is. Right. If it means struggle, which struggle can be peaceful, struggle can be economic, struggle can mean boycotting, it can mean marching, if it's inherently violent. And what I realized is that in talking to this person, this person who is like, legitimately a lovely, lovely, lovely human being, just didn't take very much for him to believe the absolute worst about Mamdani. And there it is. Just didn't take anything. It takes Herculean leaps, Herculean leaps to believe the worst. A lot of people about Donald Trump, about Andrew Cuomo, about just any number of politicians that I could throw out there. It just takes a lot of. It takes a lot to believe that these people are cynical. It takes a lot for people to believe the truth about Israel. Like, you just can't make them believe it. It doesn't matter what happened. You can't make them believe it. You can't make them believe that there has been a coordinated apart. There's been a coordinated military occupation and oppression that's existed for as long as it's existed. Then on top of that, an apartheid state that's existed for as long as it's existed in the west bank, the coordinating occupation in Gaza, then the attacks on neighboring countries. You can't. It doesn't even matter what Smotridge or Ben GVIR would say. If they're in the government and they say it well, there are lots of voices in the government. They don't control everything that's going on. You Just can't make them believe it. There's nothing. There is a belief that there is an inherent good that comes out of that and that there's an inherent evil on the other side. And I don't know how to talk past it. I don't know what you're supposed to say. And when I'm having this conversation, it feels like this. This is somebody who I love and trust, but I can't help but feel like. But go. You know, that's what they say about me, right? Like, you know that in this society, people are waiting for me to make a mistake so they can go back and say, this is who this person always is. I existed at TMZ for nine years and was the big brother to the office, was the big brother to the office, was the big gregarious teddy bear that everybody wanted to. And the first opportunity they had to make me look like an aggressive nigger thug who attacked one of his co workers. They took it and motherfuckers went with it. And I'm like, yo, it's Van. I literally was like, yo, it's Van. Remember me? Hey, it's Van. It's like. And so.

[B]

So you feel like they always maybe felt. Had a feeling that you. That you were. It was possible for you to play into that stereotype, for you to fit that stereotype.

[A]

I think that it's easy for people to look at Zoram Mandani or other people like him that are in the same ilk and believe that there is some part of him, something inside of him that wants to hurt the people that they love.

[B]

Can I push back and say. Because your friend that you're talking about in particular is scared, right? He's scared. Definitely scared for his wellbeing, by the way.

[A]

By the way, I got through to him.

[B]

Great. That's beautiful. Who are scared and. Well, I'll try to remember this thought. He is scared for himself. He is scared for his community. And the other side is successfully playing on that fear. Could it be that. And I'm not saying I agree with this, but. But could it be that he's not looking at Mamdani as far as he's capable of that, but somebody. And I'm not saying that this is any better, somebody looks at him and maybe thinks that he represents something and that empowers them or emboldens them to act on the very thing he fears on. Did that make sense? Do you understand what I'm saying?

[A]

No. Say it again.

[B]

What were you about to say back?

[A]

I was about to give you the best possible answer I could. That's what I do.

[B]

So your whole thing is how he looks at Moamdani. He looks at Modani and thinks certain things and this is why he feels a certain way about him. Right. Whether it's xenophobia, whether it's racism. He looks at him and he feels that way. I'm saying, is it possible that he is. He's fearful for himself, for his community, that it's not necessarily Mohamdani that he thinks is that person. It's that somebody looks at him and says, oh, he emboldens me to act on.

[A]

Yeah, I think that. Yeah, I think that's better.

[B]

And I'm not saying that that's better. I'm just saying rather than taking out Mamdani like, oh, he's the bad person, it's that somebody else might look at him. And I'm not saying I agree with that. I'm just trying to reason his, maybe his thinking.

[A]

So Mamdani is going to win and a lot of the younger Jewish voices in New York support him. He's polling really well. I do think it's an interesting opportunity, when we talk about several different aspects of his candidacy, to look at them and how they reflect culture. Right. Number one, you have the reluctance from the Democratic establishment to embrace him. That reluctance is twofold. It's one, that he is a direct and vocal critic of Israel and so many of them can't be because of who pays them. Right. Secondly, is just the set of politics. The set of politics are, at least in their intent, anti capitalist. And those politics being anti capitalists, change the dynamic of how the political apparatus works. Because if in fact, you do do things that are anti capitalist, then you kind of kick in the nuts moneyed interests and who can be bought and how. Because we're really getting to a point in America to where if you deliver for working people, then you almost have to say fuck you to the corporate oligarchy that is controlling the country right now. They almost can't be a part of it because they have no interest in the working people of this country. They're not interested in them. They're incurious about the lives of the people that would consume the things that they are making. Like it's part of a car company in 1965, or not even 1965, in 1957, 1958 was that they had to pay you enough money that you could afford a car. You had to be able to afford what it was that you were Making. There's no corporation right now that is employing Americans that really gives a fuck whether or not they can afford the thing that they're actually even contributing to. That's gone. You can have them do a service for you, you can manufacture it somewhere else, and then when it comes back to try to have an impact on that person's life, you can do everything you can do to depress their wages, increase your profits, and make sure that there's no federal minimum wage raise. So we're really in a situation to where there has to be a binary set of winners and losers. In this situation, either the working people of America win or we're in a forever cycle of gangster capitalism that ends with breathtaking societal chaos. So that part of it from Donnie saying, hey, you know what? I'm make the Bushes free, I'm going to give. Or you can't give it to them for free. Can't do this. That's going to fuck this up. That's going to fuck this up. I've listened to all the arguments about why freezing the rant is actually bad. I've listened to all of it. But the one thing that I haven't heard from anybody is how what we're doing right now and have been doing for X number of years, how that is benefiting working people. I haven't heard that. You can't hear it because it's a load of bullshit. It's garbage. There's no way you can, like, argue in any way, shape or form that anything that's been happening recently benefits working people. You can't make that argument. Right. There's too much data. So there's many, myriad things that are working as far as people's fear of mom, Danny. But, you know, one of the things is this. And I have conversations with people around Israel all the time. You know, there are people that have listened to the podcast and DM'd me and asked me stuff about stuff that I've said, and I'll be like, let's get on the phone and talk.

[B]

Yes, I know you do that.

[A]

Okay, be like, let's get on the phone and talk. But there is no possible way. And I don't know how to say this. Well, I do know how to say it. I'm just gonna say one of the most important things that the world community has to do right now, one of the most important things that the world community has to do is be able to intellectually separate the country of Israel from the culture, the safety and protection of worldwide jewelry. We have to be able to do it. And one reason why we have to be able to do it is because Israel is not responsible enough for. It's not responsible enough with its own reputation, in my opinion, to represent the safety of Jews across the world anymore. And I don't think it's ever really been. I think that Israel does what it does with such impunity, with such obvious, obvious callousness, that if, in fact, the tying. If the safety and the reputation of Jews across the world is tied to the reputation of Israel, then Israel will fail them in perpetuity. Because. Because what we're looking at now is it's beyond the pale. It's beyond the scope. You have conversations with smart people and literally you say stuff like, look, I understand, like, what do you want Israel to do? And I'm like, they killed 21,000 children. Like, what. What do you expect me to say? Like, what do you expect me to say? Do you expect me to say in that situation? You expect me to be like, yeah, they have to. They have to do that. This is what has happened.

[B]

Do you still hear people say that very thing you just said all the time? Like, did you talk to. I'm not talking about, like, online and stuff, like, within your. You still encounter people who are like, well, what are they supposed to do? This is because of what happened.

[A]

But understand, though, like, so this is the conversation. This is the conversation. We can move off this in a second, get to Prop 50. But, like, the history of who they are is of a people that have been slaughtered wherever they've gone, right? So some of the people that you talk to, you know, their grandparents were in the Holocaust and then somebody fled somewhere. Sometimes Israel is like the third or fourth place that they went, Right? And so you're listening to them and you're doing two things. You're holding a political reality in your left hand. In your right hand, you're holding an emotional truth. And the emotional truth is we're afraid. And the political reality is there were people living there. And that is the central truth. The central truth is. Yeah, everything that you're saying. But there were people already living there. And so, like, in having this conversation with as much compassion and moral conviction and courage that you can, especially when it comes down to somebody like Mamdani, at the end of the day, you kind of gotta be like, I understand that you're scared. I understand that there's fear. I understand that all of that stuff is real. It has been real. You've heard the stories, you've Heard stuff. And then it came true. You watched it come true. You're like, you watched it come true. You watched it happen at the same time. That foreign government and its actions before October 7th, in his actions after October 7th, just doesn't seem to care about the reputation that you have, but you care about theirs. So the Mamdani thing is actually, it's not a small deal. It's a sea change that he could win in New York. He could win in a place that has that type of influence from Jewish culture. It's actually a sea change. And that he could be. I honestly think that there are some people, and I don't know that I'm not saying anything novel, that there's some people that went, you know what? This guy stood on the stage and he went, I'm not visiting any foreign countries. Like, I'm gonna take care of New York. I'm not in any way going to have. I'm not going to say something because I have to say it in order to win. And if I lose, fuck it. That, plus all of the other things that speak directly to working people. It seems that there are two truths right now that are operating in the New York mayor's race. One is that the city is too expensive and people want somebody that speaks to affordability. Two is that people are just tired of pretending like there isn't a rogue government in the Middle east killing people. And once again, when I say that, I understand the context. I understand October 7th, I understand the horror. I get all of it. I understand it. But what I'm also talking about is a flat line of history that goes back not even to 1948, but goes back to the late 1800s, when Theodore Herzl had a vision of a settler colonial colony in Palestine and was very open with him and other people about the fact that they were going there as settler colonialists. And there was never any. And the whole. And you can say whatever you want to say, that maybe they should have accepted the partition pain. Maybe they should have. There's all kinds of stuff you can say and all kinds of stuff you can talk about, but just one truth is that 800,000 people fled their homes. They were never able to come back. They've been occupied since 1967. And unless there is some way, some hope of actually addressing what is one of the biggest crimes of the last hundred years, and we'll be in a perpetual cycle of violence, and it don't matter who the governor of New York is or the mayor or whoever, all right? That was too much. California Prop 50. Oh. Oh, it looks like it's going to pass, Rachel. 57%. I saw that support. You're into this cause you was into Gavin. You like the cut of his jib.

[B]

The cut of his jib.

[A]

You like the cut of his jib. Listen, is Gavin Newsom single?

[B]

No, he's married.

[A]

Oh, is he? Who's he married to? Mrs. Newsome.

[B]

He literally talked about his father in law and gotten tears.

[A]

He got teased.

[B]

He was about to cry because he married into a Republican family.

[A]

Mrs. Gavin Newsom.

[B]

Listen, I'm for anybody who is pushing back against what is happening with gerrymandering, what Trump is calling upon Republican governors to do in their states. And I like it. I know there was this thing on social media, I don't know if you saw it, that people were really upset with the Native Land podcast. Did you see that?

[A]

Native Land. I saw this.

[B]

People were really upset at their take.

[A]

On Shout out to Native Land.

[B]

People were really upset at their take on talking about Governor Newsom and reparations and really, you know, coming after him for the way that he vetoed the other four bills. It was five. One past four didn't. And there was a lot of people who were responding who said, not now, not now. That's not what we need. And I'm curious as to your take on this, because people were like, we appreciate. And this is where I come from. I appreciate somebody who's fighting back. I appreciate somebody who says. Which is what we've asked multiple times for our politicians to do on this podcast. Somebody who says, I see what you're doing. I'm gonna fight fire with fire. I'm just gonna say, well, we're better than that. That's not what we do. And then at the end of the day, we're screwed because of it. So anybody listens to this podcast, know we're for Prop 50. We'll be voting November 4th for it. And I'm happy to see that it's getting the support that it needs to pass. Now, is this gonna set other states, and we're already seeing it, who are gonna do their own redistricting, other red states to combat this. Sure. But I think that what California's doing, which was inspired by the Texas Democrats, is how blue states and politicians that lean left need to be responding to the other side. Did you have a. Did you understand. You said you saw what people were. What people were saying. Did you understand the sentiment? Did you understand why people were upset with. I felt like they Were more so calling out Angela Ride. But I'll say the podcast in general and their response to Newsom when Newsom is trying to do something that is anti Trump.

[A]

So I know I don't understand the criticism of Native Land at all in any way, shape or form. Okay, so let me tell you guys something right now. And it's. So Gavin Newsom came up here and the AIPAC thing went viral, and then other people were talking about, you know, that we had a conversation with Gavin Newsom that was hard on the governor. I don't even think it was that hard.

[B]

I don't think we were hard at all. Hard was Larry Elder.

[A]

Okay, Hard.

[B]

That was a. Hard to ask somebody questions that maybe other people aren't asking does not make it hard.

[A]

Okay, whatever. I actually left impressed with the governor. Okay. When I say impressed, I mean he blew the AIPAC answer. But we had to ask it because if he thinks that's the last time he's gonna be asked that, he's fucking living in a fancy world. Right? He blew the AIPAC question. But I think it helped him.

[B]

I think it's gonna give him time to now restructure his answer when he's asked somewhere else. Which. Did we talk about that?

[A]

I think it is. And I also think that it's important to let that when people are polled on this issue and people talk about that, then it's like people are not. Like they're not fucking around. They've seen something. And we talk about moneyed interest in politics, There's a conversation to be had about the entire corporate. We just fucking did it. We just fucking did it. So this is what I'd say. No, I don't have any problem with what Native Land did in any way, shape or form. No. And I hope. And I talked about this a little bit. I think it was on D.L. hughley's. I went on D.L. hughley'S respondents to something that D.L. hughley had put up. I hope that people understand this. It's like there's never a wrong time to advocate for the freedom of black people. There's never a wrong time. But there is a lot to be gained from convincing you that there's a wrong time. There's never a wrong time. Never. Never, ever, ever. There's never a wrong time to say, what about reparations? There's never a wrong time to say, what about justice and policing? There's never a wrong time to say what about. What about. What about what about never, Never. There's never a wrong Time. But there's a lot to be gained from convincing you that it's not the right time to advocate for you. Sure, sure, sure there is. I don't believe in any way saying that Gavin Newsom, disappointed on reparations or on anything else could or would affect anybody's vote on Prop 50. I don't, it shouldn't. I don't. I don't think that it would. But even if it did, you guys, how long you gonna wait to be a person? I know you're scared. I'm scared. I sat on my phone doom scrolling last night watching videos of ice fuck over human beings. I'm watching black people afraid, upset, don't know how to move. I'm watching black women being taken out of the workforce. I'm watching so many things happen. I'm watching firings and layoffs at places where Trump has basically stacked the deck to make sure that his cronies run networks. I'm just watching dysfunction, racism, xenophobia, sexism, just extrajudicial killings off the coast, kinetic strikes on boats. We don't know who's in the boats. They say they're drug dealers. We didn't. They just say, trust us. I'm just seeing large scale power grabs in a way that I actually haven't seen before. And I get the fear, I get the fear. I get it. What's the one thing that we can do to make sure that there's not more of this and everything seems like it is, is the thing. The government shutdown seems like it's the thing. It seems like that is one thing. We gotta see the Democrats stand up. The government shutdown seems like it's the thing. Prop 50 seems like it's the thing. That is a structural thing that Democrats can do in order to make sure that there's not a greater power grab from Trump and his cronies. So we gotta support it, right? There's just never a good time to shut up. And I don't know how to be in community with my people enough to express that in a way that takes into consideration everything that everyone's going through. There's just never a good time to be like, we don't have to worry about us right now. They'll get to it. Let's do this first. We've done that. The thing is, Governor, this is the way you do it. Hey, Governor Newsom, we're gonna support Prop 50. We're going to support your fighting for us. We're going to support that. And by the way, we Want to let you know that we've been living in California or Alabama or Maryland or wherever for a long time, and they've stolen our resources and we want them back. And so when we support you, we are then putting our trust in the fact that. That you will support us. And if you don't, we kicking your fucking ass. That's it. That's the line. In perpetuity. You could be mad about it, you could be upset about it, but if you don't have the gusto to stand up and ask for what you want, if your freedom has to be whispered, you are a fucking slave. And I'm not one of those. And I'm not in any way. I'm just not. I'm not one of those. I get. I understand you guys are scared, but I'm not one of those. So what you want me to do? What you want Angela to do? I got plenty of disagreements with the Native Land podcast. Like we. In terms of politics. I'm probably to the left of them on a lot of things, but I know one motherfucking thing. That they care about black people. I know that for fucking sure.

[B]

Well, listen, we did a podcast and then the very next week we did another podcast where we talked to a local politician about reparations and. And Governor Newsom and the fact that he vetoed it. Both can be true. Both can be true. You can require him to support reparations in the black community and also vote yes for Proposition 50, which I get more ads for.

[D]

No.

[A]

And that's cause the way your shit no on tv.

[B]

Not just on tv.

[A]

That's where your shit goes.

[B]

I'm like, man, you know what? Arnold Schwarzenegger one more time.

[A]

I'm like, I know what. That's because. That's because of Brian. That's because of what Brian was watching. Watching.

[B]

No, that house is cleansed.

[A]

N. It's not.

[B]

That house is cleansed.

[A]

It's not there. Last time I was there, I saw an ab roller.

[B]

No, you didn't. Around that house. Last time I was there, my mom came. She put oil on the hand door handles above the doors. A man we saged. It's got new energy. No. That house.

[A]

So it looks like Prop 50 is going to support. Is going to be supported. The question is, what are the other states around that will support it? There's some problems in Maryland. We having Wes Moore on the podcast in a second.

[B]

We are not. Yeah, you manifesting.

[A]

He's coming later on. He's coming later on. And they say he's coming.

[B]

Okay, now he's gotta come.

[A]

Yeah, now he's gotta. They say he's coming. We're having Wes Moore come on the podcast. But that's the deal. That's kind of the thing that's going on that's happening. As far as with Prop 50, I get, you know, there's never a wrong time to say, hey, just last thing I'll say about the reparations thing, my big papa, my dad's grandfather, my father's grandfather who raised my dad, worked the land. He worked the land for years and years and years and years and years and years and years. He tilled the soil, he cut the sugar cane and he was denied. He was denied ownership, he was denied economic justice, he was denied. My big mama was denied. All of these people were denied. And the ones that weren't denied were defrauded heirs, property contract buying schemes, white terrorism, all of that intentional. You can't tell me when to speak up for them. You can't tell me when to ask power, what they gonna do to make that right. I'm sorry, you can't tell me when to do that. I'm going to do that. If you don't want to just be cool. But you can't tell me when to do that. So that's the end of it. Like vote for Prop 50. Vote for it, vote for it. It's important reparations though, and at least.

[B]

On the ballot, he's given us the opportunity to make the decision. It's not what happened in Texas. You can now watch Higher Learning on Spotify and the Ringer's first ever television channel, available exclusively on Samsung tv, the subscription free streaming destination bringing you the best of tv.

[A]

Rewatch some of our greatest hits, including live shows, interviews and more on the all new all day Ringer channel. You can also settle in and catch up with some of your favorite other Ringer favorites including the Rewatchables, the Ringiverse and the Big Picture.

[B]

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[C]

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[A]

K Higher Learning. We got an interview. We have somebody who wrote a book. Her name is Abby Phillip. You might have seen her on cnn. She's the host of Newsnight. Every night you have seen me at the table, like, barely holding on. Barely holding on. At this point. Okay. There's a lot of things being said. Barely holding on. But she has an illustrious career. She worked for Politico. She covered the Obama White House. I know you guys remember him. Obama. She has a book out. The book is called A Dream Deferred Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power. Abby Phillips joins us on Higher Learning. This is the book right here. You guys can get it. Abby, how are you?

[D]

I'm good. What you didn't say is that you're our star guest.

[A]

That's not true.

[D]

You're everybody's favorite. You know that, right?

[A]

I'm favorite because I'm nice.

[D]

You are.

[A]

I talk to everybody around. Some people don't. But, like, I think there are other star guests.

[D]

Well, you have. You have interesting things to say and you are nice, but you're also very different, which is why we like having you on. So thank you for hanging on. We need you.

[A]

It's fun.

[D]

We need you.

[A]

Let's start with the book before we get into all the other stuff going on in politics. This is Jesse Jackson and he's on a phone from the old days. It's him. He's very happy.

[D]

For those of you who know what that is, that's a telephone.

[A]

It's a telephone. Okay. Why Jesse Jackson?

[D]

Well, that's kind of the question that I was asking myself before I wrote the book because I kind of thought, what more is there to say about Jesse Jackson, right? Like, everybody feels like he's been around forever. He's been everywhere. You can imagine. Anytime something is going on, he's there. But I do think that this part where he ran for president and also the coattails of that, the impact of that is much less understood. And when I was covering 2016, and Bernie Sanders was running, and he seemed to come out of nowhere, and everybody was like, where did this come from? How is he doing so well? Why is he so popular with young people? Well, I also had a lot of people telling me then and in 2020 that that's because he was sort of a follow on from Jesse Jackson. And I felt like a lot of people didn't know that and didn't recognize that I didn't know that, really, or acknowledge that. And so it just felt like a gap in history that could benefit from some perspective, could benefit from some actual reporting and talking to people who were there, because there was just not a lot of attention paid to Jesse Jackson in the sort of mainstream media at the time, because they just thought that he was just kind of this gadfly person running for president who was never gonna go anywhere. And he didn't win, obviously, but his campaigns had a much more lasting impact than all the other campaigns of those times, you know, so, you know, it's a gap in history and it needed to be kind of explored.

[A]

Do you think that we've gotten away? I'll just ask you this from our perspective on Jesse Jackson as a serious contributor to the American political discussion. And what I mean is that if you were born at a certain time, then Jesse Jackson was a fire extinguisher, right? He was the guy that was going to show up when something went wrong.

[D]

The ambulance chaser.

[A]

He was gonna be in front of cameras. And there was almost an unseriousness to that that might have overshadowed some of the more serious parts of his legacy, not just in civil rights, but in American politics. Do you feel like he is now some way becoming underrated?

[D]

Yeah, I do. I mean, and look, this is not a sort of argument to lionize him or, you know, paper over any of his mistakes or shortfalls or character falls or whatever. It's just an argument to say that he's consequential. He's just a consequential person. And he did a lot of things that were important, that were lasting, that were incredibly rare. I mean, this is a man who kind of came from nothing and became both one of the most prominent civil rights activists of his time, right up there with Dr. King in that era. He was one of Dr. King's disciples then to go on to become one of the most famous black people in America, maybe even in the world at the time. Then he runs for president. While he's running for president, he is going to foreign countries and freeing prisoners from Captivity. Americans from Captivity. It's a narrative that is highly unusual and does not get acknowledged for what it is. And I think it's. Some of it is that he was sort of diluted by the ever presence of every press conference, every appearance, every whatever. And I think people around him acknowledged that there was not a camera that he didn't like. There was not a microphone he didn't like. But I do think that even putting all that aside, you gotta look at the man in his life and say, well, damn, he did a lot more than a lot of people ever do in their lifetimes. And there are so many chapters of it that actually, you know, people can only hold one or two of those in their mind at the same time. This is one that really gets forgotten and it really shouldn't.

[B]

The book is called A Dream Deferred. Yeah, obviously. Very powerful, very meaningful title. What does that. What do you mean when you use that title in the context of his life and his legacy?

[D]

Yeah, I mean, a lot of it has to do with that. When he ran, it was really not clear that this amounted to anything. I mean, I think in the moment, it was like, well, he ran for president. It was nice while it lasted. But the deferred part is the critical piece here. The argument that I make in the book is that it did take 20 years, 30 years plus for us to fully understand what the real impact of these campaigns was. Because until you get to Barack Obama, you don't really understand how important it was that Jesse Jackson ran, changed the rules of the Democratic Party, and fought for outsider candidates to have a shot at the nomination, because Obama just wouldn't have been the nominee had Jesse Jackson not done that. And we didn't realize that until there was an outsider candidate like Obama who used that, that opening to become the nominee. And then you have what came next. You have the message of economic populism. You have this Democratic Party that is the rainbow coalition that he envisioned. At the time, it really wasn't so much, but now we just take for granted that Democrats boast that they have a party that reflects the whole country. Well, that's also largely because of Jesse Jackson. You know, populism and Bernie Sanders and aoc. Those are all messages that Jesse Jackson put on the national agenda. And so that dream that he had of the politics that he envisioned for the country wasn't made a reality when he ran, but it took a lot longer for it to actually come into fruition.

[B]

In your view or your point of view, what dream remains? Deferred in American politics, particularly with.

[D]

I think we're still struggling to come to terms with our multiracial reality. That's the biggest conflict in our country right now, is that we have a diverse country. And about half the country doesn't like that, and the other half does. And what Jesse Jackson thought was possible was that you could actually unite Americans around this sort of idea that we have more in common, especially on economic issues, on moral values, but also on economic issues. And I think that that's still the hardest challenge. I mean, with Trump, he has sort of broken open the divides in this country, and white voters have shifted even further away from a belief in the value of a sort of diverse nation. And so I think that's the biggest one that's left. And if there is a candidate, regardless of perhaps what political party that they're in, but especially if you're a Democrat and you believe in diversity and you believe in that, you gotta figure out how to do that, not just on the basis of race or gender or sexual orientation, but taking all of those things and saying, you know, we value that about you, but the real thing that we have in common is that we all want to live in a world in which we all can thrive and we can all have a sense of hope for our future, et cetera.

[A]

Last question about Jesse Jackson. Maybe not. Maybe the whole thing will be about maybe. Do you think that civil rights leaders are penalized for survival?

[D]

I do. I think he was. In particular. In particular, yeah.

[A]

Dr. King is lost in such devastating and dramatic way. Medgar Evers office goes on and on and on. Malcolm X. That we are able to exist in a certain period of their lives and really talk about things that they did. And if you live long enough, you do other stuff. And if you're black, they keep looking for reasons that the stuff that you did before wasn't genuine or that it was cynical. And the reason why I asked that question is very specific. I remember when Nixon died and I was a kid. I remember just the way they talked about it. And I remember learning things about Nixon when he passed away. Like, oh, Nixon opened up China, and Nixon did this and Nixon did that. I remember my dad looking at the TV going, God damn, is anybody gonna get to the. You know what I mean? Or Jimmy Carter had the opportunity. Jimmy Carter's a great guy. Had the opportunity to. But it seems like there's a different set of circumstances for black civil rights leaders sometimes that the longer they're alive, the more their time kind of gets diluted. A little bit.

[D]

That's such a smart observation and something that when I was writing the book, it came up a lot, because I think, first of all, just grappling with life and death for these types of figures. Jesse Jackson's whole life there was the shadow of death over it. Right. His children told me that they were always afraid that he would never come home. They were always prepared that, like many other prominent black figures, he wouldn't make it to 40, he wouldn't make it to 50. He's made it now to 84 years old. And because of that, his life has had a lot of ups and downs. He's made mistakes. We found out about them. He's done a lot of things. And I think for that, people get to pick which parts they like and which parts they don't. And the narrative kind of gets harder to shape in a way. And so, yeah, I mean, I think Jesse Jackson has lived a long life, and because of that, it's not easy to put him in a simple box. And I think people would. It's just easier to take a small chapter of a man's life and say he was a hero. And I'm not suggesting that those people are not heroes. I'm just saying for regular people, they're like. It's easier to think about them as a hero when you only have to think about one part of their life. And I also just think that part of the story of this man, and a lot of men, frankly, in public life is that they are humans. They are flawed in a lot of different ways, and even our heroes are flawed and understanding that and accepting it and not allowing that to overshadow just the reality of what they actually did when they decided to go out there and do things that most people don't even get off their couch to do. It's important to have some perspective on that. And, you know, I mean, I think Jesse Jackson is also the type that he. He just likes to be in the public eye. And, you know, even when I was interviewing him, this was over the last four years or so, he had Parkinson's, but just would not slow down. He was on airplanes every week and going all over the country, and he just never wanted to fade out of the spotlight. And for some people, that's a negative. But I think for him, you know, you could argue that it's his validation of his survival. I mean, he gets to do that because unlike so many people that he knew, they didn't survive past their 30s.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, you got to talk to him in working on this book, Was there anything that you learned about him that surprised you while you were doing your research? Anything interesting? And I'm curious if there was anything that you decided to keep out of the book, maybe out of respect for his legacy or maybe to protect him in the way that. Because as we're talking about the perception that people may have had, I would.

[D]

Say, well, first of all, let me. On the part that I think surprised me, I did not. When I was this book, as a political reporter, I wanted it to be about these campaigns and about kind of what was going on in those campaigns. And I think the part that was so intriguing to me was that he spent a lot of time around white people, white farmers. He went down to Texas to speak at Farm Aid with Willie Nelson in the mid-1980s. And I just think people don't think of Jesse Jackson in that way. They think of him as the guy who's always talking to and for black people. But I was just surprised by the amount of time that he spent cultivating relationships with white Americans and literally going to those places, the corners of the earth that a lot of black people don't want to step foot in and saying to them, I have a message for you. And I think that is one of the most underrated parts of his legacy. Also, the stuff about the degree to which he actually was very successful in this sort of citizen diplomacy piece, again, not something that gets talked much about. And honestly, it's like all of these things about him that I think make him the subject of criticism. I just ask myself, if someone else did that, would we criticize it or would we praise them? And the fact that he went to Cuba, he went to Syria, and returned dozens of prisoners, political prisoners and prisoners of war to the United States, and we just act like that never happened.

[A]

Brave. Impressive.

[D]

It's just something that most people don't do. And in terms of keeping things out of the book, I mean, I would say that he's had a lot of chapters. So I don't know that there's anything that I kept out to protect him. Because mentioned in the book are things that everybody knows happened. That, you know, the extramarital affair in the 2000s, the rumors of them in the 80s, those are in the book. The relationship that he had with other civil rights leaders after Dr. King was killed, that is an incredibly controversial chapter, and one that you can't skip over, you know, because it explains so much about why he is the way that he is, why his relationships in the Black community are what they are. And so the book dives into that and relays the whole back and forth in that messy situation. And so there are. I tried honestly not to skip over things that were controversial because you can't really, you know, the controversy is the point in a way. Like, that's part of the story. If you skip over it, you're kind of missing the story.

[A]

On to Trump. I have so many great friends at cnn, and it's actually a very warm place when you go up there, talk and all that stuff is. Great question. How do you reconcile the damage that I'm sure you see the Trump administration doing with the fact that that damage is probably good for your job?

[D]

I don't know that it good for CNN or the media.

[A]

It's probably good for Newsnight.

[D]

Oh, you know, the show. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. First of all, do you even think that that's true?

[D]

I don't know. I mean, I don't know that I think that's true.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

I mean, I think in the first Trump term, I thought that was objectively true of the media. He created this big interest in politics because people were just aghast at what was going on. I think that is much less so now.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[D]

Much less so now are you guys.

[A]

Feeling less of a Trump effect? Because in that first, people were buoyed. Don, Chris, all of that, it's not happening the same way anymore.

[D]

I think people are very fatigued by this media environment. And. And so the Trump chaos or whatever, the constant things this time around is not bringing a bunch of people into the conversation of the national political conversation. I think a lot of people have turned off the news. A lot of people have checked out. You know that to be. I mean, do you hear that from people? Because I hear it all the time that they're. That they're exhausted.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I guess I don't really hear it from them because when people call me, the people that I know, when they call me, they're always asking me about something. They always calling me up, like, homeboy called me up. Yo, Van, what is a continuing resolution?

[D]

And I'll be like, that is a good question.

[A]

But you know what? He's, you know, my homeboy Ryan, he's watching the shows, and every now and again he hears something. He's like, what is a continuing resolution? We'll talk about it for a little while and then we'll get back on wemby. But so what I'm saying is that kind of stuff is happening. It seems like whenever I'm at cnn. There's always something that I'm like, how am I gonna talk about this without getting angry, Right? Like, how am I gonna have this conversation sometimes about something? Like, I'll bring something up. I lost my temper the last time I was on there. I was back and forth with Scott and the report had just come across that the kids had gotten zip tied, Right. And I looked over the table and I said, can you just denounce the zip tying of children? And he couldn't do it. And for me, sometimes I get to a point where I'm on any show like that. Well, I'm wondering, is there purpose to the conversation that we're having, right. If we don't have sort of a base level of decency and I'm not the moral arbiter of people, and I don't tell people how to live. I'm not that guy. That's not me. I'm not your pontiff or anything like that. But if we can't. Do you feel like sometimes that these conversations aren't valuable and they're kind of just for tv?

[D]

I do definitely feel like sometimes they're not valuable. It doesn't mean that I'm like, wash my hands of it, we're done. Right. I think that there are just some conversations where you're not getting anywhere.

[A]

Right?

[D]

And what's the point? And that's okay, because it doesn't. It's not like I don't think that the purpose of conversation is for every single time for us to come away from it holding hands and singing Kumbaya. Cause we agree, right? Because I don't think that is possible. I don't think that's a reasonable expectation. And so when we do have those conversations, and I think I remember that obviously, and I think that that was frustrating, not just to you, but to a lot of people, because I do think that there is some sense that you can't ever concede anything, especially on the Trump side. And I think that is not a constructive way of operating in a conversation or in politics. So I don't like that.

[A]

You know what it is, Abby? You know what it is. In actual function, and I hate to say this, in actual function, it's a fascist tactic. And I. And I know to not concede that is a specific political fascist tactic that arose out of the post World War II Mussolini blood. It's a fasc. Never concede anything. Be whatever you have to be. Only the nation matters. And I hear and see that all the time. And this is not to call anybody specifically a fascist, but it does get to a point to where it sometimes seems like we can't have basic conversations about humanity anymore, which means that we're kind of all doomed.

[D]

Okay? So, look, I think that you're right, that the problem is that when it comes to humanity, to decency, to just, you know, these are people we're talking about. Right. Why can't we just put that front and center and put our political obligations on the back burner? And I think that increasingly we are not able to do that. But the one thing I would ask. I mean, this is just a question I have for you. I'm not discounting the sort of diagnosis of fascist tactics looking like this, but I also think that. I think this is becoming just a feature of our politics in general. Because, for example, when we all saw what we saw on the debate stage with Joe Biden, we had a lot of Democrats telling us we didn't see it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's facts.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And this is not a false equivalency argument, because I know people are gonna think that that's what I'm doing here. But I'm just saying that this stuff is contagious when we don't allow our common sense hats to be put on. When we don't, we're not willing to tell the truth because we don't want our team to take a hit. That's when the whole system gets eroded. And so I don't just see it on the right. I think it is very acute on the right because Trump is completely unforgiving of dissent in his orbit. And a lot of people feel like if they wanna be good with him, they have to be lockstep. But I also see it. I see the temptation to do that arising on the left, too. And they're actually doing it in some cases. This main candidate who has the Nazi tattoo.

[A]

Graham Platner.

[D]

Graham Platner. I mean, this is what I'm seeing and hearing Democrats saying, which is, we can't give in. This is bad, but we can't give into this. By giving into this, we are giving them a reason to attack us, giving them an opening to win. And I asked this question on the show last week, like, at what point are we gonna say we can't do this in our politics anymore? That some things, there are lines that people can't cross? And I think that's. It's a sign of our times. And I think everybody is feeling emboldened to do that now. And it's Dangerous something that you just said.

[B]

You talked about things being constructive on your show. You talked about sometimes the rhetoric and the feeling being contagious on both parties for you. And I know that, like, sometimes people come at you and the show for platforming certain people. And we have this conversation on our podcast all the time of should we. Shouldn't we have these voices? And what's our responsibility for you if it is about being constructive and there is this fear of certain rhetoric being contagious? What's the line? How do you find the line for what you have on your show?

[D]

I think that, first of all, we are willing.

[A]

Ryan and Mitti.

[D]

What?

[A]

Ryan and Mehdi.

[D]

Ryan and Mehdi.

[B]

Oh, that was the follow up.

[D]

Ryan Gardusky and Mehdi. Okay. So, yeah, I mean, but that's like an obvious line to me, right? You say you. You suggest that someone's a terrorist and say that you. That you hope that. You hope that they don't get blown up. Obvious line. Okay? You've crossed it. You're done. And look, that moment was pretty much everybody in the moment in the studio. And we have. Ryan was not the only Republican at the table. We had another Republican at the table. Everybody in that moment was like, wow, I cannot believe that guy said that. That's crazy. He knew at the time Ryan did that he had messed up. Okay? So in retrospect, everybody likes to pretend that it's other than what it was, but everybody knew that was a clear line. I think it gets messier and harder to decipher when you're dealing with people who have viewpoints that might be very, very far to the right. Very, very far to the left. Okay? And here's what I would say. I think that we evaluate what people are saying, but also their willingness to have a conversation, and we're willing to take risks. So I don't mind trying out new voices to find out, can they have a conversation, can they be engaged with. Because I do think that we do want real perspective. Okay? And that means people who have deeply held beliefs that are different from other people. And by necessity, that means that those people are gonna, you know, if you're on the left, they're. Gonna. Those people on the right are probably gonna trigger you, and that's okay. So I'm okay taking the chance and saying, let's hear from these people. Let's see. Let's see if they're willing to engage in a conversation. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But I also think that we. Look, I don't like to put people on who are just out in space. Looney Tunes, conspiracy theorists, the whole nine. That part, I think, is not great for any kind of conversation, because you can't have a conversation with somebody who's not rooted in reality. But I also think I'm not willing to draw bright lines on viewpoints. I think you have to evaluate it on a case by case basis.

[B]

How do you keep a straight face? Like, when you're. I'm serious. I mean, I'm like, is she counting to 10? Is she squeezing a stress ball? How do you. Some of the things that happen on your show and whether it's outrageous, whether it's a moment that you're talking about with Scott, like, not being able to just say, like, no, this is wrong. I have very strong facial expressions. Like, I can't hide anything. How. And people ask me this. They've asked me this about you. Like, how do you.

[D]

People ask me this all the time.

[B]

How do you do it?

[D]

They ask me this all the time. And I don't know. I mean, I just. I'm listening. Like, I'm legit listening without making a face.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I mean, I think that that's the thing. Maybe it is.

[A]

I can tell when you're annoyed, though.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I mean. Right. So that's the other thing I was gonna say.

[A]

Those.

[B]

Don't tell her secrets. Don't let everybody else have it.

[A]

The raising of the pen. When the. Like, when. When, when. So watch the show. Watch the show. When. So Abby is doing her thing. She's very. And when the pin gets raised, when the pin comes off the thing, when the pin goes like this, the raising of the pin, and the pin comes towards you, that means. Shut up. My show. I will talk. All right. I've had enough. The raising of the pin goes up. And listen to me. And so I can tell.

[B]

I will pay attention down.

[A]

Oh, you're gonna see it so many times.

[D]

That's what I. Thank you for saying that. Because I will say it's not that I don't get annoyed.

[A]

Sure.

[D]

It's just that I try not to get annoyed. Annoyed all the time. Because, like, who can take someone seriously when they're always reacting? And so I'm honestly just sitting. I'm listening to people, and I'm really trying to hear, where are you going with this? Before I make a judgment about whether it needs to be responded to either by me or by someone else or whatever. So I'm involved in the conversation, and so I try to keep a neutral Listening face. Because I am actually wanting to know, where are you going with this point? And then sometimes when they do go somewhere crazy, I'm like, huh?

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

You know, because it is. I would say it's just. It is as authentic as I can argue that it is. Right. Like, it's just who I am when I. When I'm having conversations with somebody, I'm not coming at it with a preconceived notion about what they're gonna say. I really wanna hear, what are you gonna say? And does it make any sense? And then if it doesn't make any sense, trust me, I will say so. I will say so.

[A]

I wanna ask you a broader question about the presence of black voices on these shows in the mid-90s, when mid-90s, mid-90s, I was not watching CNN. Yeah, I was Wolf Blitzer. Was Wolf still there? Wolf was there.

[D]

Of course. Wolf has been there from the beginning.

[A]

They also had. What was the brother that was there? Was it Bernard?

[D]

Bernard Shaw.

[A]

Bernard Shaw, man. Shout out Bernard Shaw. Is he still with us?

[D]

No, he's not. He passed a couple years ago.

[A]

Rest in peace, Bernard Shaw. So if I turned on CNN 2015, 2016, it was Mark Lamont Hill, it was Angela Rye. I would see Don Lemon. Then at some point on msnbc, I'd see Joy Ann Reid. I would see Tiffany Cross. Yeah, I would see voices and people that I trusted. But even more than that, I enjoyed those people because I feel like they agitated something. They agitated. They agitated something. There was an agitation from those voices to me, sometimes to the status quo. It seemed like they all got wiped out. It seemed like they, you know, Mark. And then Angela's not there, and then Tiffany's not there, and then Joy is not there, and then Don is not there. Was there an intentional culling of voices that would agitate on these black voices that would agitate on these big networks?

[D]

I mean, it can't. I don't know that you could say it. Intentional in the sense that there's some kind of concerted effort. They all are in different places.

[A]

I mean, like, get this person off TV is too much.

[D]

Yeah, well, I don't know. I mean, I think every single one of those situations is different. But I mean. But your point is well taken, that the people who kind of shook the table are not as much there. I mean, I don't know that I can make a blanket statement about the why or the, you know, the why of that. But I do think you're right that it. It has created a Void. And it's also one of the reasons that I think people are kind of. They're sort of bored by the classic voices that we typically see on television these days. You know, the just. And this is what I talk about a lot in terms of how we try to find new people to come on our show, which is that I think. I think people are kind of sick of the political pundits just sitting there. We're all just like the Democrats position or the Republicans position. Everybody's just talking past each other. And I think that that's kind of taken hold in recent years for whatever reason. And I do think that you're right that all of those people were not quite like that, and they did something different and they put something different on the table. But the media business is tough. You know that.

[A]

I do.

[D]

You know that. It's a tough business. And we don't. Every single. They all. They all left at different times. They all have their own stories around why that was. But I think the bottom line is that, you know, the media business is in upheaval, and everybody is trying to figure out how to survive. And in that process, a lot of people are not here anymore. They used to be here. Chris Cuomo, he's gone. You know, there are a lot of people.

[A]

He's changed.

[D]

Well, and now. I mean, now he's doing what he's doing. But. But I'm just saying, like, that is part of the upheaval in this business, and I think that's a big part of it.

[B]

Do you fear the way where media is headed? And I don't just mean, like, traditional media as, like, the way these. Everything is coming together as one. I just mean, like, the way information is being put out there, which I do love about your show because you do, like you said, bring different voices from podcasters, and it's not in the traditional sense. But with that, do you fear maybe your position just as a black woman, but also what you represent in traditional media?

[D]

Well, I mean, look, I don't take my position for granted. Cause I know. I know the score. Nobody's entitled to these jobs. So while I'm here, I'm here. But, yeah, I mean, I think actually I am concerned about the information space, about the media. I just think we're not really headed to a good place when there's no validation of information out there. People have nowhere to turn to know if it's real or not. And I see every day trained journalists getting bamboozled by lies and hoaxes online. So imagine what a regular person is doing. They're struggling. They're drowning in this ecosystem, and that's not good. Like, we have lost. It's not just a loss of trust and faith in the media, but we've lost the ability to validate what's real and what's false. And that's getting worse because AI is playing a big role. There's no such thing as verification anymore, because now you can just buy a check mark. We don't know who is who anymore. And that's a real problem. And that's not even including the consolidation in the media that I think is, like, in every industry, when you have consolidation, it's less competitive. So what it's gonna do is push a lot of people to the Internet, which is kind of the wild, wild West. And some of that is good, but a lot of it is bad. And so I hope that more of the good starts to kind of coalesce into something that people can really hold onto, where they create their own sort of. Their own sort of values for how people know to trust them and build a kind of new ecosystem there that can compete with the mainstream media ecosystem that is rapidly consolidating. But for now, I think we're still kind of in the Wild West. And if you're a regular person out there, I don't blame you for being like, how am I supposed to figure this out?

[A]

Have you interviewed President Trump? I don't remember.

[D]

I've spoken to him. I haven't sat down for an interview with him.

[A]

Do you think that President Trump has. I mean, when we hear the way he talks about black women, it's low iq, this. It's not very smart that. There seems to be a specific animus that he reserves, in my opinion, for black women, to a degree. I've heard him say it about other people, but I just keep hearing the same refrains. Do you think that President Trump respects the intellect of black women?

[D]

I don't know. I honestly don't know. I mean, when I had that moment with him, who knows what year that was? But he was like, you always ask somebody stupid questions, whatever it was at the White House. And people asked me that very same question in that moment. And I think Trump doesn't like being challenged, especially by the media, but he does not like being challenged. And I think particularly perhaps doesn't like being challenged by women. But I think you can make a pretty good argument that he can. He doesn't reserve his firepower for women. Very clearly. Many other male reporters are on the receiving end of it, too. So do I know whether he has animus toward black women? No, I think it's. I'll let other people speculate on that. But do I think that he also knows when to kind of make a moment? Yeah, I think he knows when he's creating something that people are gonna talk about and when. Whether it's me or my dear friend Yamiche Alcindor or whoever, April Ryan, Kaitlan Collins, you name it, he knows how to make a moment of it. And the reason I say that is because I've also been in rooms with him in private, and he doesn't necessarily conduct himself that way.

[A]

So you say he's a nice guy. You like.

[B]

That's what they say.

[D]

Well, what I would say is that.

[A]

What I would say is, Rachel likes him.

[B]

I do not.

[A]

I'm telling you. You guys. You guys. Rachel, you remember when. Do you remember the whole Cat named Vagina thing? Remember that? He was on cnn. He says he has a cat. She has a cat named Vagina.

[B]

And Abby just laughed.

[A]

See, that kills. That kills. Rachel, you like him. You like him.

[B]

I don't. Stop saying that.

[A]

Do you want to tell her that.

[D]

She'S wrong for liking Trump?

[A]

No. Look, do you think.

[D]

You think.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

Hold on.

[B]

I don't think that he can be. Say things that make me laugh because.

[A]

Okay, so I went on there, and we did a. What I thought was a great pilot was me, Kara. Kara Swisher. Love her. And Audie Cornish. Shout out to my man Ryan over at cnn. Shout out to my people, man. And we had the mooch on Scaramucci. Anthony Scar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Guy said, whatever you want. I like him. Okay.

[D]

Yeah, he's cool.

[A]

I like him. And he was sitting down and talking to him, and I asked him, I was like, what is the thing with Trump? What's the deal? And he said, the thing about Trump is that. And this is very much. When he was describing this, I thought about Al Pacino in the Devil's Advocate. He goes, trump, he knows what you want. And then when you're close to him, he commits to getting you what you want. So it's not as if you're working for him. It's working for you. And then he goes. And he's just charismatic.

[D]

Totally. I think that's exactly right. Look, I always tell people that Trump is. He is in the hospitality business, so he's very keen on making people feel comfortable, feel like he's helping them out, feel like they're. I mean, you See the flattery. He was just in China, and it was just avalanche of praise for Xi Jinping. The two are going at it, right? So in the room with him, he can be that way. And I have known many people who have been very deeply skeptical of Trump, and they have gone into private meetings with him, and they get turned around because he flatters them. And he's the type of person who's literally like, oh, can I get you a drink? Can I get you a Coke? A Diet Coke? Or whatever. And so this is not an argument to love Trump, for those of you who don't love Trump. But it's just to say you don't understand Trump until you understand that part about him. Because the loyalty that he gets from. From people around him is in part because he makes them feel really special. Yeah. And some of that is because he's a hotelier. He's like a guy who likes to host people. That's why he created a club patio at the White House. And all these executives from all these big companies who are insanely rich, way richer than him, they come and they just get totally turned upside down by him and by the feeling of being special in his presence. And so, again, if you wanna understand why it is that these things turn out the way that they do, why all of a sudden all these people who were criticizing him four years ago are not doing that anymore? It's because when Trump picks up the phone and calls you, you feel really special. And he does that. He does that in a way that other principles don't. He. He will literally have direct interaction with people. And that is the one thing that makes them think that he's on their side.

[B]

Yeah. I think people, too, maybe go in thinking, oh, I just know exactly how he's gonna be. And then it's the complete opposite.

[D]

It's the complete opposite.

[A]

I don't like him.

[B]

Something you say. I don't either. Van.

[A]

Just. Just something. Just so it can be. I don't like him.

[B]

Yeah, we don't. It's. I don't either. Just. Cause you keep trying to put that on me. Something you said on the Breakfast Club that I thought was interesting because we talked about it here on Higher Learning. You said that you're talking about Kamala Harris, Vice president, former vice president Kamala Harris. And you were talking about how you didn't know if she was gonna run or not. And I think that's the question. And you said that she'll be haunted by the bridges that she burned during her Tell album. And when I read the book, I was actually shocked because the headlines made it seem like she was saying all these detrimental things about particular politicians and the Democratic Party. And I did not get that at all. I felt like the people who got it the worst were Joe and Jill and the people surrounding Joe Biden.

[D]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

So what? I guess. What do you think that she said that? Cause I didn't feel like that was the narrative at all. If anything, I felt like she didn't say enough. I was disappointed. I was disappointed.

[D]

She didn't say enough names. She didn't name enough names.

[B]

Yeah, I was disappointed. I wanted more from her.

[D]

I think it's. I think it is still the Joe and Jill of it all.

[B]

I mean, that was too much.

[D]

Well, I just think that there are a lot of people who are loyal to the Bidens and also had been loyal to her who maybe they weren't explicitly named in the book, but they were implicated in the book. And I do think that that's. This is politics, right? Politics is all about loyalty and alliances. And, you know, I know it seems that everybody's throwing Joe Biden under the bus, but Joe Biden still has his loyalists, and a lot of those same people, by the way, who are not named but who are implicated. Who were the staffers? Unnamed staffers? You know, West Wing, that's sort of a broad, underlying term that refers to specific people. And they know who they are. Those people are staffers, but they may not always be that. And I do think that that is gonna be a thing that she has to deal with, because you see it in the media. I mean, there are stories about how many of those people feel like she didn't take enough responsibility for her role in what happened, both in her vice presidency and with the Biden kind of. That's the summer of the disastrous debate. So I'm just. All I'm saying is just reflecting back how politics works, and the way the politics works is that it's not just, do you have the endorsement of all these people with titles next to their name, but all the people underneath them who you need to work for you, to help you build your campaign, to be loyal to you, to go out and actually convince people to vote for you. I do think that there are bridges burned there, whether they were named or not. And it's not. That's not. I want to be clear. That's not my opinion. That is based on what I have heard from some of those people. And it's going to be challenging for her to make the case that, you know, once you've thrown. Once you've written a book like this, nobody wants to be the subject of the next book. So, you know, can she create a narrative around herself that the next time around things are gonna be different, that she's gonna be able to make a case for herself both to the American people and also to Democrats, who she's gonna need in order to build a campaign for president. That's not something you can do by yourself. It's something that you have to do with other people and other people who are professionals, who are still out there working and feel like they were part of the blame for everything that happened.

[A]

So you wrote a book. The book Jesse Jackson, the Fight for Black Political Power. But a lot of people writing these damn books. Not this book. This book is about Jesse Jackson right here. This is this book. But I'm talking about. There's a genre of book. And the book was. The book is I was in the White House, but don't blame me. And these books is dropping, like the latest hits on the charts. Your man Tapper kind of did one. He kind of. But he wasn't in the White House, but he kind of did Original Sin, which I read. But Kamala, Karine, Jean Pierre, and I hear Biden's got a book coming out. So it's books that's dropping. They dropping. Now, this is interesting because we're in hell, okay? So just. Just from a. Like, we're. Like, we're Is bad, but the books is coming out. What's up with all these books, man? Well, like, it. These. I feel like these. Do you feel like these books are in bad taste?

[D]

I'm.

[A]

Seriously.

[D]

Look, I think this is part of what I'm saying is that I think that the books are definitely a problem. When you write a book, and the takeaway that people get from it is everything's messed up. But don't blame me or not right now.

[B]

We don't see this right now.

[D]

I don't know. I just. I think that that is a hard. That is a tough pill to swallow. Okay? And so I don't. I don't. I do think that there's something to be said for the passage of time, and I think the rush to get some of these books out is interesting to me. It feels a little bit too soon. Feels like the dust has not settled. It feels like maybe not enough reflection has happened, you know? And I don't know. I mean, once it's written down, it's written down. You can't take it back. So I don't know. I think everybody who's rushing to get a book out in 2025, less than 12 months after the last election ended, it's gonna be messy because the fallout is still happening. And so it's not clear really where it's all gonna land. But then you have this book that's kind of a permanent thing. So we'll see. I don't know when Joe Biden's book is coming out. That will be interesting, I think, to pick.

[B]

Just knowing that it's coming, it's like. But not now.

[D]

But it's like. I think people are asking themselves, are you gonna reflect or are you just gonna deflect?

[B]

Yep.

[D]

I don't know. And I just personally think that it's hard to believe that there was a lot of deep reflection that has happened when I know that that book was done being written five months ago. It's just too soon. And I think people want honest reflection because they want to know how to move forward.

[A]

I think what Joe Biden can do in his book, that would be really awesome. It would be really awesome if Joe Biden's book wasn't about. If he just dropped the book and it wasn't about anything political. People would be furious if Joe Biden just put the book out.

[B]

So deflect.

[D]

To answer your question, it was about.

[A]

The history of train conductors. And he showed up on Good Morning America, his life on Amtrak, his life, dressed up like a train conductor. And he was like, I really always loved it. And this is what I want to write a book about, because I'll be honest with you.

[D]

Do you want the book? Do you want a Joe Biden?

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I want the people that say that their life goal is to fix things. To fix things. This, to me, is a deeply. And we're talking to Karine Jean Pierre tomorrow. This is a deeply cynical, selfish era of politics that we are looking at from the top. And maybe it's always been that way, and I'm evolved enough to see it now, But I am disgusted by the books, by Kamala's book, by all of this stuff. Look, I'm not disgusted by these people.

[D]

I know.

[A]

But I am disgusted by the. Particularly when the stakes are this high. And we talked about on the show already, but, like, if. If you didn't have the. The moral courage to stand in the gap while kids were being slaughtered, then just button it up. Just. Just, like, just. Just shut it up because. And I'm I'm just being for real because you're. It's not as. These were high leverage decisions to stay silent. These weren't just decisions to stay silent. That didn't mean anything. There's a cost. So like for me, it's difficult for me to just pick up the latest read and be like, yeah, it's cool.

[B]

Yeah, it feels tone deaf. It feels like you're not grasping the moment of what people need. I think it was something I saw you said where it's like the messaging and politicians who are caught between the old world and the new world. And so when these books come out, it's like you're not understanding what people want and what they need in this moment. It just feels like you're trying to sell me something. And then I read the book and I'm like, that was it.

[A]

And maybe that's unfair. Maybe I'm being unfair.

[B]

Well, I don't think so because we feel desperate. You said we're in hell. We feel desperate, exhausted and fighting for some side of.

[D]

I don't think you're being unfair. And I, I would say that, I think that what you're saying is what a lot of people actually believe, which is that this is all good and well now, but the consequence of those failures have been devastating to regular people out in this country. And I do think it feels very self serving to write a book where the takeaway is how was I treated? When you're a politician or you're in a high level, high ranking level of the government and the one thing you needed to do was figure out, see your way to winning so that other people don't feel the consequence of losing. So I think that is hard for people and that's always a risk of writing these books, but they do happen. And this is not the first time. I mean, every election there are books written by the people involved and it's just the way that, it's the way that it goes. And I don't begrudge people for wanting to kind of get out their side of the story, but this is why to me the issue is actually more the timing. I think that in this very moment it feels like the wrong timing for some of this stuff to come out.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Because I think people might be interested in the reflections on, okay, how did you experience this as a human? A little bit down the line when they don't feel like they're quite as in the fight as they are right now. So, you know, I mean that's, that's the Trouble with it. But everybody's gotta put food on the table and, you know, figure out their post election life, and that's part of it.

[A]

Pivot. Last question for me. So let's say there was a dedicated rapper spot on Newsnight every night. Let's say every night. You guys should do this for one week.

[D]

Oh, I know what I'm gonna say. I don't even know what the question is, but I know what my answer is.

[A]

On one knee for one one week on Newsnight, there should be a dedicated rapper spot. That one spot should have to be. The fifth chair should have to be filled with a rapper.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

I have to be a rapper. All right. You can't pick Cardi B.

[D]

Shut up.

[A]

Why? Because it's too easy.

[D]

No, she's the person. She's the only person I would want on that seat. For real.

[B]

On a live show.

[A]

Absolutely. I do this. You can't pick Cardi.

[D]

You can't pick Cardi B.

[A]

Because it's too easy. Cause, like, it's too easy. Okay, I'm gonna give you people to choose from. I'm make it easy.

[D]

You're okay.

[A]

All right, multiple choice. So on the Monday show, it's gonna be a female rapper. Your choices are this. To fill the fifth seat, Meg Thee Stallion, Latto Dochi, Sexyy Red, or Doja Cat.

[D]

Dochi.

[A]

Dochi is filling the fifth seat.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

All right. Yeah.

[B]

That's an easy one.

[D]

That's easy.

[A]

That's not easy. To me, I'm putting Sexy Red in the picture.

[B]

She's entertaining. Of course you are.

[A]

I'm putting Sexy Red in the pixel.

[D]

My second choice would probably be Latto. Oh, yeah. Because I think, I think that, you know, I just, I'm thinking about who can. Who's gonna a have something to say and then have something interesting to say. And I think that she. I don't know. I don't know Sexyy Red like that. But I feel like Latto would have.

[B]

Sexy would have been a strong second Abby. But it's definitely. Dochi is the answer. But Sexy.

[D]

Yeah, Dochi is definitely, definitely the answer. I mean, it's easier with rappers who, like, you know, they put a lot of thought into their music. And so that you know for a fact that there's like, the well is deep, right? So you want to go with someone who has a deep well.

[A]

So I tell you something. Hey, man, hit up punch. I bet you if you invited, that would be so funny. First of all, the dedicated, I'm telling you, the dedicated fifth C4 rapper. Rapper Week on News Night.

[D]

You have to convince me to do that.

[A]

That should happen 100%. Do it like you could program it by. You know what I mean? You get. I mean, you have Lupe could come up there. Lupe can go crazy. Lupe got some interesting politics. You have Lupe up there. You have Sexy Red. You have Dochi. You have the dedicated rapper Fitz. Cuz hip hop is on its way out anyway, so you might as well put him on cnn. All right. The book is a Dream Deferred, Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power. Flat Iron Books. Flatiron Books.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

My great publisher. They're great. They stood by this book. Oh, and you know what? That's worth shouting out. And I think that I just wanted to say that.

[A]

Shout out. Flat Iron Books.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

You know, I mean, look, I mean, as you know, sometimes people don't want to write books about black historical figures.

[A]

It's true. It's true. Especially look at Jesse Hare.

[D]

Or publish books about black historical figures.

[A]

Jesse Hare. Crazy.

[D]

They deserve to be shouted out for doing that.

[B]

Can we get a shout out to Delta Sigma Theta?

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Are you a Delta?

[D]

Yes, I am.

[A]

Oh, for real?

[B]

See, what you don't know about Van is he's always putting us down.

[D]

Oh, my God.

[B]

He's always pointing out. Yep, yep. He's always pointing out who makes it to places that we don't like.

[A]

What? What?

[B]

Like Kamala Harris. You love to throw that out. He loves to throw that out.

[D]

I'm not gonna talk about this on a podcast because I feel like all I'm gonna say is that Deltas make it happen.

[A]

So hold on. But you see, this I like. This is the energy I like. Because Rachel. Because let me tell you.

[B]

Oh, because what?

[A]

Because I'm gonna tell you. I'm gonna tell you right now. First of all, did you. You went to Harvard, right?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

You placed Delta at Harvard?

[D]

No, I'm an honorary.

[A]

Oh, see, there we go. So.

[B]

So it also means we know how to pick them.

[A]

Like, so. So this is what. Like this is what I would say.

[B]

Not even pledge.

[A]

I don't do it.

[B]

Always try to act like he's really into the D9.

[A]

But this is my thing, though. This is my thing. See what you just did? You just kind of put it on the line a little bit. That there was a little bit of energy right? There was a Delta's making it happen. A little bit of energy. When Accamala was running, Rachel tried to make it seem like. Well, a win for the D9 is a win for everyone. We're trying to be nice. That's not how it goes.

[D]

I'm just saying, objectively speaking, Deltas were behind Kamala in a very big way. And I think that that is something you can ask her about. Ask Kamala about it.

[B]

You know, we were one.

[A]

What?

[B]

We didn't like what we saw, so we broke off and started our own thing.

[A]

Eternal Ivy's.

[B]

Stop saying that. I hate that you think you know so much. What it's like we renounced.

[A]

What? Eternal Ivies. Look, I've been there, man. I told you before, I didn't put up numbers with the Deltas. All right, we gotta go. We gotta get outta here. Go get the book. Flatiron books. Go get the book. Do you know what hotel, the Flatiron Hotel was featured very prominently in a fiction movie? It was a hotel. It was called the Continental Hotel. In a fiction movie. Do you know the movie? This is for 100,000.

[D]

Is it that movie about the guy who killed everybody? Who kidnapped.

[B]

She's like me with movies. She's like me. You're not wrong.

[A]

That's the movie. It's called John Wick about the guy who killed everybody.

[B]

He's not wrong.

[A]

That's the movie. John. The Flatiron villainess, Continental Hotel.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Abby, thank you for joining us. Oh, higher learning. That's hilarious.

[D]

Bye.

[A]

Bye.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by.

[D]

Spotify Portal for Backstage. But you're wondering, what's Portal? Well, it's an internal developer portal built to improve developer experience and boost productivity. All software components are centralized. Documentation is automated and easy to maintain. New projects and components, just a few clicks with your best practices are already built in. Think less friction, more innovation. Ready to double your productivity? Try Spotify [e-mail].

[A]

Okay. Thank you for Abby Phillip. Thank you to Abby Phillip for joining the show.

[B]

Yeah, it was great.

[A]

It's a Delta real quick. On Monday's show, we probably are going to cover the dire situation with SNAP benefits that exist right now.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Let people know that if you are here in Los Angeles county, there is the Emergency Food Assistance Program, the efap, that is administered by the California Department of Social Services. There's the California association of Food banks. There's a 211 hotline for that. It provides an online locator for food banks across all 58 California counties. And so there are resources.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

If you have access to Internet, you might be able to use those resources. But I'm gonna go a little bit deeper. I think we're gonna go a little bit deeper on Monday on not just the position that SNAP is in right now and how there's a wing of American politics that is looking to starve people, but about the overall attack on SNAP and how that plays into Project 2025 and Trump's overall plan.

[B]

For sure, for sure. And we'll provide more resources, I feel like outside of California. But if you do in the meantime, like on social media, post where people can get groceries, donate to your food banks, whether it's monetarily or you donating groceries, we all got to come together and help each other out right now because we're not getting it from.

[A]

And you know there are people doing work. Shout out to Charlamagne. I saw Charlamagne post on his social media some of the stuff that he's doing to get people fed. There's a brother, Donnie. Look this brother up. I've been following him. He is in Michigan and he has made all of his produce free for people to come grab food while he looked his brother up and then put it in the chat. He's from Detroit and he's made his produce free for people to come grab food while the SNAP benefits are all messed up and they can't eat. We have got to keep each other fed. It's a big deal. But also just know that this is part of a plan to immiserate you enough to bend you to the state's will. Yeah, that's what they're trying to do. Do it with snap. They're gonna do with your healthcare. They're gonna do whatever it is that you need. They're going to try to immiserate you to a point to where you'll accept whatever version of society that they are willing to kind of put out there. We have to do a little entertainment. Now. I saw a headline and I saw that was shocking to me. Did you see this headline?

[D]

I saw it.

[A]

No rap songs in the top 100 for the first time since 1990. Kendrick Lamar out SZA out top 100's top 40 in the overall top 100. But there are no rap songs in the top 100's top 40 since 1990. Luther fell off the hot 100 October 25th, 2025. You've seen no rap songs. The top 40. The highest ranking song on the October 25th hot 100 was shot calling by NBA youngboy that number 44, Cardi B safe and Big X the Plugs Hell at Night also ranked in the 40s, 48 and 49, respectively. No rap songs in that.

[B]

You're upset.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why are you upset?

[A]

Cause I don't think that it's a blip.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

I don't think that it's a blip. Movie just came out. It's called House of Dynamite, and the film begins with a warhead. And they think it's a test. They think it's nothing. Right. They think that the warhead's a mistake. It's a test. Maybe the North Koreans are testing something else. Everybody is business as usual. And then someone says, in the movie this warhead has gone suborbital. That means that this is not a test. This is actually a sign of calamity to come. And that's what I think this is.

[B]

With the rap industry, hip hop.

[A]

This is a sign. This is a red alert for hip hop. I'm serious.

[B]

Well, spoiler alert. In the movie we never see, it never happens.

[A]

What never happens?

[B]

It just ends.

[A]

Oh, no. But you didn't see the way it ended. Well, we didn't see anything, but they were at a.

[B]

It's up to your imagination.

[A]

No, they were.

[B]

Somebody could have saved the day.

[A]

No, you missed the goddamn movie. Did you see it?

[B]

Yeah, I saw.

[A]

So at the end of the movie, they're getting people into a nuclear bunker. It happened, Right?

[B]

I saw it.

[A]

All right, so. So this is what I'm saying, the question. Okay, so hip hop is in trouble. I'm sorry. And I'm saying this not as somebody that's in hip hop. I'm saying this as a fan and as an observer of culture. Hip hop is actually in trouble. The question is why? Yeah, why hip hop is in trouble? Because nobody cares about hip hop anymore, okay?

[B]

Do you think people don't care about hip hop because it has changed to that point? And the reason I say that is because. And we talk about this. Is this a sign of us getting older, where we just don't understand and connect to the new music out there? Or is what was hip hop not really the same thing anymore? And I'll give you an example. The closest thing to the top 40 is youngboy. NBA's shot calling. NBA, youngboy. I was gonna say that.

[A]

Baton Rouge, baby.

[B]

Isn't it NBA, Youngboy.

[A]

I say NBA, Youngboy. But he also.

[B]

I was gonna say that, but the article says Youngboy, NBA. We sound so old right now.

[A]

No, no, no, no. It's NBA, Youngboy. But it's also.

[B]

That's what I was gonna say, but.

[A]

It'S also young boy never broke again.

[B]

I know that. I know that. But I was going to say NBA Youngboy. And I looked down at this article and I was like, I feel so old. You know, I don't like being an auntie with this moment. I do. I was like, oh, that's interesting. I guess I've been saying it wrong. Anyways, my point being is that I don't know his music like that. I don't connect to it. I know who he is. I just don't connect to it. It doesn't move me. It doesn't feel like hip hop to me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so I'm wondering, has it changed so much to where you have maybe older Gen Z millennial moving out of it? Or I should say younger millennial moving out of it, where we just don't connect to it. And is that why you think it is? Or you think that this is some concerted effort maybe by the industry to water down and push out hip hop?

[A]

I don't think anything is happening on purpose. This is what I think.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think hip hop started off as a culture and it became a hustle. It was never, to my understanding and knowledge, something that people didn't do to make money. Obviously, it's a job. You rap, you wanna sell, you wanna do all of that stuff. If hip hop is a culture, then a culture needs to be nurtured. It needs to be taken care of. It needs to be taken seriously. If it's a hustle, it's something you do to make a quick buck. And then after you make your quick buck from hip hop and you're not making it from that anymore, you do something else. When I look at the landscape of hip hop now, I see big rap stars who have never really made a good record. For real. They've never. I see big rap stars that their brand is bigger than the music that they put out. That's a problem. Like, that is like, who? Nah, I'm not naming any names. Cause I'm not naming any names.

[B]

You would ask me if I said that.

[D]

That's true.

[A]

But you know why I'm not naming any names? Because if I name names, the person's cult of personality becomes bigger than the actual message of what I'm trying to say. And that's the problem. The problem is that when the music comes out and we can't have honest conversation about the music because the celebrity of the artist actually overshadows the music, then what happens is whatever the celebrity produces ends up being good in other art forms. This is something that the prestige of the art form negotiates and litigates. You can put out a bad movie, a popcorn movie or whatever, whatever, whatever. The serious movie. People are gonna be like, hey, just to let you know, that's a movie you don't have to take seriously. Just go have fun. We have enough film over here that you have to respect and take seriously, that we are going to talk about that, we are going to argue about that we are going to dissect, dive into. We have enough of that that you could go have some fun with that. We don't have that in hip hop right now. To me, right now, when I look at it, I see rappers dropping that are really out there doing it for the love. And I'm not saying it's this way all the time, right? The clips dropped this year. Freddie Gibbs dropped this year. All the. I'm not saying. But what I'm saying is overall we or rap has become content and people are putting it out. And what we care more about is their lifestyles, the shit that they doing, the shit that they tweeting, where they going, who they fucking with, and all of that type of stuff. There is one art form recently that has actually, in my opinion, made a gigantic comeback, and that is the young female pop star, the Tate McCrae, the Sabrina Carpenter, the Dua Lipa, the chaperone. Because the type of ecosystem that we live in right now, it lends itself to that. It lends itself to music that is very, very catchy. Chaperone's a little bit different. Her stuff is a little deeper. That's very, very catchy. But that you can turn on and then you could turn off. But you can also then be attached to the actual person, be it the sexuality of Tate McCray or Sabrina Carpenter.

[B]

Or the brat of Charli XCX, the brat of Charlie.

[A]

You can be more attached to all of that stuff and the music can fill in the blanks. It's hard to do that with rap. In rap, the music has to matter. The perspectives of young people, middle aged people, older people, them talking about their communities, them talking about what's going on, their view of the world, that has to matter. That undergirds the fact that this is an important part of street art.

[B]

Who's at fault? Who's at fault? Who's at fault for not nurturing it? Is it the artists that are coming in or is it the audience? Who's accepting it?

[A]

Everybody. Everybody. At the same time, we talked about the Erosion of hip hop media. Hip hop media is essential for hip hop being healthy. Because if. If they're not enough Kendrick Lamars to come out there and give that type of. There's got to be more than one people. You got to have a deep bench. You got to have a deep bench of people, right? You got to have all types of different rappers doing all types of different rap, you know? And look, there are plenty of brilliant people out there making music, making serious music, really caring about, taking care of the art form. But, man, there's just so much other bullshit that you gotta do now in order to be in people's faces that doesn't have anything to do with the substance of your music. Then when you drop the shit, if we try to have an actual conversation about it, actually go back and forth about how the music is, you get a brigade of stans that tell you you are a hater or somebody that doesn't want to see these people succeed. There's an erosion of the cultural competence right now that I'm seeing that takes hip hop and makes it into disco, disco. And I'm just being for real. It's like you, this is an art form. And I'm not even talking about Hip hop ain't saved my life. I'm just saying it again. But, man, I was. I'm boxing a couple of days ago and I'm on, you know, my title shit. And Space age pimpin comes on a ball. MJG say what the fuck you wanna say. Them niggas meant that shit. It's craft in that record. God damn, It's Kraft in that record, right? And we go from there to ugk Say what the fuck you meant. You can't listen to that and tell me Pimp didn't mean what the fuck he was saying. It's craft in that record. I could go later on. Marva's room came on. Oh, that's a sincere record. And to be honest with you, it's a sincere record. That's how Drake is. And rather, he had to become something else because they kicked him in the ass for it. So when I'm listening to this shit now and I'm hearing it, I'm not saying it doesn't sound good. I'm saying it doesn't feel good. And it.

[B]

You said there wasn't a good hip hop. Isn't that what you said? A good hip hop record? What do you mean, isn't that what you said? You said right? Now you feel like that there's not that the big artists aren't putting out good records. Big hip hop artists.

[A]

No, no, no. I'm saying that there are. I said that there are some big hip hop artists who legitimately have never made a good song. When I say a good song, I mean like a real song. Think about what it used to take for you to become something in rap. You had to make some shit.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

That people had like I'm talking about it's people out there and we care about them for all kinds of other reasons than the fact that they rap and make music. And the rap is actually kind of undergirding the just the story of celebrity that we telling about them. The rap be about shit in their actual life that is a part of a celebrity story, not a part of a larger cultural story or even an observation about themselves. You know, there's a difference between. I don't know, man. It's just to me when I look at it is.

[B]

You'Re sad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's like a piece of not nostalgia, but just like what meant so much to you, a part of you growing up, a part of your identity. It already feels like it's gone. Even before this. I think that this coming out in this way and who knows, next week it might change, but this coming out just kind of proves what it is you're already feeling about rap music.

[A]

This is why hip hop, this is.

[B]

Why we kind of talked about it before.

[A]

This is why I appreciate people. This is why I appreciate Rob Markman. This is why I appreciate DJ Head and Jeremy Head and Elliott Wilson. Elliott was supposed to come on the podcast. Ducked us. This is why. What happened to Elliot coming on the podcast?

[B]

Yeah, I remember that.

[A]

It's not we doing whatever he was doing. Who cares? This is why I appreciate Gina views. This is why I appreciate platforms where people talk about what it means. And those are just some of the west coast places. What's your man that do the report card like? I've talked to him. He was on no Jumper Daejeon. I appreciate that. I appreciate somebody that says I care. And if you get to talking about him, he'll start ripping off rap facts. He cares about rap. Like who just care about rap? You guys. Hip hop is very important. I don't want to over influence, but it's a very important black originated art form. And there's some corporatism that in my opinion has watered it down a little bit. And so I don't know, maybe the kids will come up with something new. We won't even need to rap anymore.

[B]

I don't know. It's. It's what motivates. You were so spot on when you talked about the motivation for being involved in the music. And the hustle thing is real. I mean, and to mix that with the corporation, you literally have people saying, make a song for TikTok. Make a song that's catchy enough to go viral. Make a song that has a dance move attached to it, because they're looking at how it's gonna turn into dollars more than about the meaning behind it. It's lost. It's watered down. That's the best way I can say it.

[A]

This. This was the moment that I realized that things had changed. This was the moment when I'm listening to an album and I ask somebody who really knows the music. Once again, I love to listen to rap, but if you ask me who I'm listening to tomorrow, you're not gonna get the person you listen to tomorrow. I'm listening to T Fly tomorrow. Okay, okay. I'm listening to RJ tomorrow. I'm listening to Problem tomorrow. That's who I'm gonna be listening. I'm listening to Silk the Shaka. I'm listening to P. I'm listening to Mac. That's who I'm listening to tomorrow. And I've been on a huge future kick. I'm listening to all of the stuff that's a big extra plug. I love Big X. The plug, right?

[B]

Oh, he's one of the newer rappers.

[A]

One of the newer rappers. Love him. I love all of this stuff. But if you ask me when I'm listening to before, it's gonna be 24 hours by T Fly. Don't hide that pussy, girl. You divide that pussy. Let a thug like. That's what I. You know what I'm saying? I'm listening. That's the shit I'm listening to. So whatever. But my point is this. Talking to somebody, listening to this album, this is some years ago. And I'm like, yo, why is every song 2 minutes and 30 seconds or less? And. Cause I really was looking at it. I was like, these songs are short as fuck. I was like, why is every record 2 minutes and 30 seconds? And then my man was like, knows a lot about the record industry. He's a popular podcaster. He goes, that's. So you have to stream the song more. You can put more songs on the album. You have to stream. If you gonna put 30 songs on an album. Cause you gonna stream that, bitch, you make the song shorter. You have to stream the song more to stream the song over and over and over again. Like Old Town Road when that bitch first dropped. That bitch is like 2 minutes and 15 seconds or something like that. Stream it over and over and over again. If a song is 2 minutes and 30 seconds, there's just less that goes into it. There's less you have to do. You have to push yourself. You don't have to push yourself. Should I say to certain creative limits. You don't have to think about different. I listened to I really mean it yesterday. Man, that's a long ass song. And the song is the beat cam rapping. Then Jim come on and Jim talk the shit. Change up just is going crazy. The whole nine. But you gotta get in your bag. And I don't know, man, take your craft seriously. This music matters. Hip hop is more than a hustle. Hip hop is more than a hustle. It's an important black cultural invention. Take it seriously. Feed that motherfucker. Water that motherfucker or you gonna lose it. Or you gonna lose it. Ah, God damn it. Like you on the. By the way, it's good that y' all tried to jump me as Deltas. I held my own, though.

[B]

Did you hear that? Words like jump.

[A]

I held my own though.

[B]

Weren't we just standing up for who we are and what we represent? But to you it was a jump. Did you say that to an aka?

[A]

What? Well, I say what to an aka.

[B]

That they tried to jump you.

[A]

Oh, you think I wouldn't say that? Cause they light skinned.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Why wouldn't I say it to an aka?

[B]

No, I really wasn't going there. I was going there because you seem to favor them on this podcast, I feel like. But thank you. Frisel is saying it's because I think they're right.

[A]

Real quick, real quick, real quick, real quick. I have never in any way, shape or form acted like I favored the akas. Shout out to the akas. Shout out to them. But like I gotta be around Donny.

[B]

If there's tape, please roll it.

[A]

I never acted like I favored the akas. Why?

[B]

Maybe you don't look at it as favoring, but you definitely be like, you know they got you.

[A]

That's not true. I was saying that.

[D]

Hold on.

[A]

That's not true. What I said was that AKA was almost the president. And I know that that feels a way.

[B]

They meet y' all and you was trying to Supreme Court.

[A]

Who's Ketanji Brown Jackson?

[B]

Ooh, he can.

[A]

Sotomayors Scalia. Y' all put y' all. Oh, what was Amy Coney Barrett? Is Amy Coney Barrett a Delta?

[B]

Y' all put her online, I would renounce.

[A]

Y' all put her online. Amy Coney Barrett, the Delta. Okay, so Ketanji Brown. I didn't know she was a Delta. Who are the big time Deltas? Who are the Deltas in places of.

[B]

I can't. Babe, we're everywhere. You saw. We just had one on the podcast. Who holds it down weekly? Not weekly, daily.

[A]

I mean, look, shout out to the ak. I love all the frats and sororities, but I don't have no preference for the AKAs. In no way, shape, or form. I was like, the Deltas on Southern Yard was the crazy. That was the shit. Talking about, like, yeah, man, that was the Deltas, man. Rashawn Payton. Rashawn Payton, AKA or Delta.

[B]

We gotta go, we gotta go, we gotta go.

[A]

Did Keira Franklin make the Delta line at Southern?

[B]

We got. See, he don't know. He don't care. All right, we gotta go.

[A]

Maya Solomon, man. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, all of these. The Deltas was different. Anyway. Take them caps off and do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathan Jr. Shout out to all of the D9 and all of the frats and the sororities, man. Shout out to the HBCUs.

[B]

Shout out to the PWIs.

[A]

Shout out to the PwIs. Shout out to all of them, man. I love y', all, man. Y'. All.

[B]

You wanna be one so bad. We gotta go. Take your thinking caps off.

[A]

Latham Junior.

[B]

I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye.