Breaking Down Reparations and Restorative Justice With Isaac Bryan! Plus, Threatening the Voting Act and Stephen A.’s Crockett Comments. | Higher Learning | The Ringer

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay – Episode: "Breaking Down Reparations and Restorative Justice With Isaac Bryan! Plus, Threatening the Voting Act and Stephen A.’s Crockett Comments" (Oct 17, 2025)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode centers on racial justice, politics, and Black cultural commentary. Van and Rachel take a deep dive into reparations and restorative justice—especially in California—by interviewing Assemblyman Isaac Bryan, who is actively involved in related legislation. Alongside, they unpack threats to the Voting Rights Act, recent viral controversies (notably Stephen A. Smith's comments on Jasmine Crockett), and broader themes in Black American life, including health disparities and representation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reflections on Governor Gavin Newsom and Reparations Politics (06:07–10:24, 61:35–89:10)

• Newsom’s Mixed Record

  • Newsom, who recently appeared on the podcast, signed some and vetoed other California reparations-related bills. This split in decision-making created confusion and disappointment in the Black political community.
  • Isaac Bryan (@59:55) critiques Newsom's actions directly, stating:
    • "He signed some bills... but I think on this one, we saw 50-50 at the end of this session... some failures were made." (67:41)
  • Van describes the tension between ideals and "political reality":
    • "There are standards and values, and then there's a political reality that exists in America..." (07:44)

• The Need for Legislative Courage

  • Bryan argues it was vital to push the admissions bill (AB7) even if it was destined for a court challenge:
    • "Bring it. We knew we had that ahead of time... If you were going to take us to court, I think that's the kind of court case that Black folks deserve." (63:37)

• Strategic vs. Symbolic Progress

  • On the necessity of formal structures before monetary reparations:
    • "I think reparations in its truest form is monetary compensation. But I don't think you can get there without some formal structure first, which includes constitutional precedent." (76:08)
  • Newsom praised for incremental wins, but Bryan insists: "...we need to see a final showing from the governor. And this agency was a big move. These five vetoes were also a big move. And so if we call this a wash, then let's close out strong next year." (73:06)

• Real-World Reparative Justice Examples

  • Bryan highlights local efforts like environmental reparations in South LA:
    • "The largest urban oil field in the country is the Inglewood oil field... We passed a piece of legislation... to close that oil field by 2030... that's Black communities. That's environmental reparations. That's justice right there." (83:17)

• Reparations: Who Is Eligible?

  • Navigating identity politics and specificity:
    • "We can fight for all Black people and also be very clear about who's deserving specifically of reparations for American chattel slavery." (86:44)
  • Van references the sometimes divisive ADOS/FBA debates, with Bryan advocating unity alongside specificity.

2. The Legacy of D'Angelo and Black Male Health Disparities (15:52–37:48)

• D'Angelo’s Passing and Cultural Reflection

  • Hosts reflect on the late musician's influence—music as a form of self-discovery and community identity.
  • Van: "The music was so life affirming... It feels different when we lose people that gave us that kind of thing." (17:09)

• Black Male Life Expectancy

  • Van shares personal losses and highlights systemic contributors to the lower life expectancy for Black men:
    • "If you are a Black man living in this country, almost everything is engineered to keep you here for the least amount of time." (30:38)
  • Rachel dives into healthcare distrust:
    • "There's lifestyle, you know, the way a black man has to navigate this world versus a white man... Do you think that it's also the way Black people... feel about the medical field or just a distrust...?" (28:58)
  • Extended dialogue on how pain, distrust, and structural neglect intersect to create generational health crises.

3. The Supreme Court, Voting Rights Act, and the Rise of “Anti-Woke” Sentiment (38:52–50:37)

• Erosion of the Voting Rights Act

  • Rachel and Van break down the Louisiana redistricting case before the Supreme Court:
    • "This Supreme Court case... centers around the 14th and 15th Amendments... creating a second majority black district... Republicans have been chipping away at the Voting Rights Act for a couple of decades now..." (38:52)
  • Van spotlights judicial activism and long-term implications:
    • "The court looked for the opportunity to nuke this... They said, go back and argue a specific question..." (42:25)

• Weaponization of “Woke”

  • Van and Rachel argue the demonization of “woke” is a coordinated effort to roll back civil rights/DEI initiatives:
    • Van: "What happens is... a codification, culturally, of an idea that we no longer need to have conversations about where people are vulnerable..." (44:32)
    • Rachel: "Woke became not just something that's annoying... but an attack on them. They're twisting [14th/15th amendments] to say... we're now being persecuted." (50:37)

4. Young Republicans’ Racist Group Chat Scandal (52:37–59:39)

• Exposure and Accountability
  • Detailed discussion of young Republican group chat leaks displaying racist, homophobic language.
  • Van: "When you expect us to believe that those people don't take those same biases into the halls of wherever they're making law... and don't act on that..." (55:31)
  • Criticism of GOP leaders’ tepid responses (esp. JD Vance):
    • Rachel: "These people will act on this because we're already seeing actions happen within our government... Like I said, that is based off a very similar sentiment. We are nothing. They are everything." (58:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Van on reparations and Dr. Darity’s influence:
  • "Just cause I read From Here to Equality every single year. The book... could be the most important book that I've ever read." (01:50–02:06, context on foundational text)
• Isaac Bryan on the Supreme Court challenge:
  • "If you were going to take us to court, I think that's the kind of court case that black folks deserve.... we missed this opportunity." (63:37)
• Bryan on who should receive reparations:
  • "We can fight for all black people and also be very clear about who's deserving specifically of reparations for American chattel slavery." (86:44)
• Rachel on threats to equal representation:
  • "They're twisting [Fourteenth/Fifteenth Amendments]... now we don't need it because now it is an attack against us... that's not why it was here in the first place." (50:37)
• Van on “woke” discourse:
  • "The demonization of that... is so particularly dangerous... codification, culturally, of an idea that we no longer need to have conversations about where people are vulnerable..." (44:32)
• Van, on the backlash to outrage/advocacy:
  • "We don't have time for people to just simply be in it. To raise their own voice with absolutely zero principle and zero thought about the entire ecosystem of the American political reality." (105:41)

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Interview with Isaac Bryan: Reparations, Newsom, and Beyond (59:39–89:46)

Key Segments & Questions:

• What Newsom Vetoed and Why it Matters (62:29)

  • Explained bills: college admissions for descendants of American slavery, legal ramifications, why he thinks Newsom miscalculated.

• Is Newsom an Ally? (66:55–70:27)

  • Bryan calls Newsom a “friend” and “ally”—but “really disappointed” by recent choices.
  • On “the ops” and political sabotage: outlines how bad actors can destabilize progress.

• Practical vs. Symbolic Reparations / What’s Achievable (75:52–77:18, 81:46–83:51)

  • Current focus on building legal architecture for future monetary compensation; examples of targeted, locality-specific reparations.

• Addressing Dr. Darity’s Skepticism About State Reparations (80:15–81:46)

  • Bryan’s response: acknowledge the necessity of federal involvement but push for progress at all governance scales, including state and local.

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Current Events & Cultural Commentary

Stephen A. Smith vs. Jasmine Crockett Controversy (91:27–109:08)

• The Critique:

  • Smith scolds Rep. Crockett for “going off” on Trump, questions the effectiveness and professionalism.
  • Van and Rachel break down the double standard, linking to a wider tradition of demands for Black humility.

• Community Response & Media Cynicism:

  • Rachel sees Smith’s pattern: “He makes some outrageous comment... then he comes back and reacts to the reaction and backtracks just a little bit...” (103:37)
  • Van: “We simply are not in this moment... We’re about to lose the whole thing... We don’t have time for the games." (103:38–105:41)

Memorable Closing Advice:

• "If I had one, one request of Jasmine Crockett, it would be, please do not go on Stephen A. Smith’s show... we cannot get in a circle... where she then goes on there and benefits that platform by making the moment that... he wants from that." (107:15–109:10)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:08 – Intro to episode and reparations discussion
• 06:07 – Listener reactions to Newsom interview; political reality vs. ideals
• 15:52 – D’Angelo’s passing, Black male health
• 38:52 – Supreme Court and Voting Rights Act analysis
• 52:37 – Young Republicans group chat racism scandal
• 59:39 – Assemblyman Isaac Bryan interview begins
  • 62:29 – Details on Newsom’s vetoes and AB7
  • 66:55 – Is Newsom an ally to Black Californians?
  • 73:06 – What does meaningful reparations legislation look like?
  • 76:08 – Practical steps vs. ideal reparations
  • 86:25 – Who should get reparations?
  • 83:17 – Environmental justice as reparations
• 91:27 – Stephen A. Smith vs. Rep. Jasmine Crockett segment
  • 101:28 – Broader meaning (history of Black appeasement; modern double standards)
  • 105:41 – The urgency and responsibility for Black voices in the political media moment

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Summary Tone & Language

The episode is animated, opinionated, and studded with personal anecdotes, scholarship, and street-level political strategy. Banter and humor coexist with passionate appeals for rights, health, and representation. Language is colloquial, honest, and maintains the “Higher Learning” tradition of critical, Black-centered analysis.

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For listeners who missed the episode, this summary provides a full guide to the arguments, stories, and political stakes traversed by Van, Rachel, Isaac Bryan, and their cultural-political world.

Transcript

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors, what is up? Power Learning is on ZY.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Van Leighton Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsey.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

We have Isaac Brian joining us on the podcast today. He is assemblyman from here in California. And he responded on Twitter to the news that Gavin Newsom, someone who was recently on the show, if you guys didn't see it, Vito, some reparations bills.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Signed some, vetoed some. And I saw him respond to that on the old Twitter sphere. I invited him. He decided to come back. We had a great conversation. Yeah, he was great about Gavin, about the bills that were vetoed. About the overall climate of reparations and restorative reparative justice. We've had this conversation before a lot, but not with someone involved in the politics of it.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Right.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

So it's good.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Someone who's been in the fight and authored some of this stuff.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Authored. He's a scholar turned assemblyman. A scholar.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

It's a long overdue conversation. I tried to.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

What you tried to come at Dr. Darity. Dr. Sandy Darity.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

When I saw it, I said, oh, Dr. Darity. This is so relevant because we've referenced him so much on the podcast, rightfully so. We know how much you revere him. You refer everyone to read his book. I've even bought it. I have not read it yet, but I bought it. And. Or one of them. And yeah, so he's a consultant in all of this. So very relevant conversation. Van tried to. You don't see a different side of man. He really. I don't know if I've ever seen you like this. I mean, it was as if I talked about. It's as if somebody talked about me. That's how you are. You were very defensive before I even got the question out.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Just. Cause I read From Here to Equality every single year.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

That's what it's called.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Every single year. The book is From Here to Equality Reparations for Black Americans in the 21st century. I really. It could be the most important book that I've ever read.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

You assumed that I was going one way and I just had a question. Cause I saw it and I said, let me. Let me get his thoughts on this. Because I knew he would answer his.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

So Dr. Darity wrote this book, but he also had a co author, a Kirsten Mullen, that I never bring up a woman. It's two people. A woman. I'm pretty sure it was a woman. I'm pretty sure it's a woman. Yeah, it's a woman.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Never brings up.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Never bring up never bring up, I gotta be better. You know, I gotta be better about. But I've been following Dr. Darity for so long, I bought the book and the book, you guys, I'll direct you to it once again. Because, yes, it is about reparations. That is true. And there are other books. Okay, it is about reparations. That is true. It's very true that it's about reparations, but it's also about the entire gamut of disenfranchisement, economic oppression, actual physical oppression, just the entire history of the situation of black Americans in this country, looking at it through an economic, cultural lens. And it is incredibly eye opening. The book goes. And it's detailed. It's scholarship. God damn it.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Read it.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

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[Rachel and Lindsey]

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[Van Leighton Jr.]

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[Isaac Bryan]

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[Rachel and Lindsey]

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[Van Leighton Jr.]

Any thoughts about our interview with the governor and how, you know, we didn't record Monday because it was Indigenous Peoples Day.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Yeah, a lot of people were like, where is the podcast? I mean, where are you guys?

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I mean, let's be honest, after one of our biggest podcasts ever, not to have an episode is kind of fucking ridiculous, but whatever.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

But we wanted to respect here at Spotify, had the day off. We wanted to respect.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Well, ain't no way, but yeah, people needed to be respected.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I wanted to respect and honor Indigenous Peoples Day.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I respect and honor the indigenous people. But, you know, we gotta get these podcasts. I respect and honor them.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Anyways, we had a great podcast. We're back again with another great podcast today. What did I think about the interview? I. I keep getting so many questions, people. It ranges. I'm sure the questions I'm Getting aren't the questions you're getting, but a lot.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Of, like the questions you're getting.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Well, did he look the same in person? What did he smell like? What?

[Isaac Bryan]

What?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I'm getting a lot of these questions. Was, is he as charming in person? They're calling him Fitz from Scandal.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

What is this?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Don't do it. What are you about to say?

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Hold on for a second. Wait a minute. See, I want you guys to understand something with this unserious group of horny birds that, you know, they can't keep their eye on the ball.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I got some of that too, but a lot of people were asking me, they were very curious about is he. The way he presents on television, Is that how he is in person? I think a lot of people are infatuated with who Gavin Newsom is as a being, you know, because he's very presidential.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Okay?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Almost like that's why they call him Fitz from Scandal. Like, he looks like a Hollywood actor. So people are like, is he that way in person? So I had a lot of those. A lot of people wanted to know how charming he was. Stuff like that. I answered accordingly. But, yeah, a lot of the response that I got on the more serious issues or the questions I got or just the comments were, you know, I came in one way thinking about him. I appreciated that he didn't shy away from anything. Some people liked that. A lot of people liked the way that we, you know, I don't want to say pressured him, but we just didn't let our foot off the gas on certain questions or certain follow ups, but also said that they liked his passion, you know, and then they were like. Some people were like, is he for real? Well, is he for real?

[Van Leighton Jr.]

A lot of the people that I know were. I mean, nobody was about the horniness, but I get it. It's different group of people, I think, that we start to see. We're starting to see now his response to the AIPAC question get a little traction. And a lot of people are covering that. A lot of people were interested in questions that we didn't get to questions that we didn't answer. We didn't ask him. Maybe if we stayed on one or two things too long, which is typically what we do here at higher learning, we belabor a point until the point has given birth. Not just to certain questions, children, but to grandchildren.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Certain questions deserve follow up. And the goal is to have more of a conversation than it is to. I gotta get to this question. And then this question. This question you try to go with the flow of the conversation.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

But yeah, there were a lot of people who, you know, that's why the conversation with Brian is going to be interesting, because there are a lot of people who, how can I put this? There's ideals and there are standards and values, and then there is a political reality that exists in America. I think there are a lot of people left of center that might not be as far to the left as me or some of my friends that are to the left of me are, that are looking for a marriage of those two things, A marriage of how they believe society should be and what they believe in and the political work that has to be done to get there. These people might be more in league with what an Ezra Klein would say or some other people who are gonna say, hey, we need to elect pro life Democrats in other areas so that we can change the landscape of American politics really from the middle, so that we can then push people that we are in political union with and change the guts of what's going on. We need to stop the bleeding and have people that we can count on or push to do that. And I think that's kind of something that a lot of people are grappling with. Like if the Democrats are, you know, hell bent on nominating, we just talk about president. Obviously local and state elections are incredibly important, but the Democrats are hell bent on nominating another corporate centrist Democrat. What's the best that they can do? I personally don't like that.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

It's what, what's been happening.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I personally look at the landscape of Democrats and wonder why they are lagging on some of the issues that the base of their party and the American people seem to now be either ahead of them on or moving away from them on the want and willingness to continuously give a blank check to the state of Israel is just, this is not gonna work. Just as a, as a political strategy, it's not gonna work. There's too much that has happened. People want to at least believe that you are willing to have a conversation with a foreign ally about their conduct and the way they're showing up in the world, how many of their neighbors that they have gone to war with, their treatment of the Palestinian people, all of that stuff. They want to know that you're at least willing to have that conversation. And look, I'll get to something. I'll address something directly. There are some that believed that when Gavin Newsom continuously answered interesting, interesting, interesting.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

To me on the AIPAC question, on.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

The AIPAC question, that he was implying in some way that the question itself was anti Semitic. Okay. So I'm gonna say something here, and I'm just going to. I'm going to address it because it's important that it gets addressed so that we can continue to have this conversation. There are a lot of places and a lot of people that you could go and say you've never really been. You've never really had the conversation about antisemitism and how it reflects itself in American culture and culture, period. And then you now want to have conversations that are critical of either Israel or aipac. A lot of places you could have that conversation. I just gotta be honest with you. This podcast isn't one of them. It's not. We have. We've investigated the issue of antisemitism prior.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

To October 7th, even within our own community.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Within our own community, we've had conversations about the rise of antisemitism in the black community.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

The very first podcast that right after October 7, we brought in different voices. We even brought in a voice where we could come together with the black community and Jewish people. Like, we've been doing this.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Okay? And let me tell you why it's important to say this. It's not important to say this so that we give our bona fides, so that people don't think that we're anti Semites. It's important to say this just so that we are able to level the same criticism of a lobbying group that we have of other lobbying groups. Way back on a red pill, I was having a conversation with a gentleman. I'm not going to bring up his name because I don't need you guys giving him a lot of grief.

[Stephen A. Smith]

But.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

But he was a gun guy. I've had conversations with a couple of gun guys on the red pill. I am a gun guy. I own guns. But what they were calling the gun community, I think a fud. Maj told me about this. So Maj Ture was describing what a FUD is to me, and I realized I'm probably a fud. So a FUD is based. I guess it's based on Elmer Foot. And it's guys that have guns, but they only want one kind of gun and they think that other guns maybe shouldn't be around. So they're FUDs. They're Elmer FUDDs. I was like. When he was describing that to me, I was like, I'm kind of a fud. But it wasn't Maj. I was having this conversation even though he was on the red pill, it was a different gun guy. I was having this conversation with and we were having a conversation about a segment that he did and the segment was sponsored by Browning. Go back to the red pill and you can see this. And I say to him, well, you're sponsored by Browning. So it's not as if you're going to go on that segment that is sponsored by Browning. Sponsored by a gun company, right? Browning, if you guys know, make shotguns, we used to hunt with Browning shotguns and all of that stuff and be critical of them. You're not going to be critical of them if they are paying you, right? Throughout that period of my career, in this period of my career, we've had very open conversations about the NRA and what the gun lobby does to the conversation about guns. And in America, we've had conversations about the defense industrial complex and what defense companies giving so much money to our politicians, what that does to our conversations around military spending, like how materially the life of an American is different, being that we have to spend so much money building bombs and drones and all of that stuff. We've had all of those conversations. And when you have those conversations, certainly there might be people that call you anti military, certainly they might be people that call you anti gun, but it does not, does not put you in the traction of people that call you an anti Semite. It doesn't. It's different. It's different because of the scourge of antisemitism, what it's meant over the history of the world. You're talking about pogroms and places and all of this and the Holocaust and all of these terrible, terrible things. And when somebody seeks to put you in line with that and they make you that just because you say if in fact you admit that an ally of the United States right now is acting in an inhumane, genocidal way, should you be willing to reevaluate and reassess your relationship with that ally? And if there is a group that stands in the way of you reassessing, of politicians having a conversation, a full throated conversation about reassessing that, shouldn't that be something that we should look at? Shouldn't that be something that we should say, well, if we can't have the conversation in good faith because our politicians are beholden to something, whatever that might be, isn't that something that we at least have to have a conversation? Then somebody points at you and go, well, you hate me and you hate my people and you hate the legacy of who we are. I don't know what to do. With that, like, I mean, I'm being serious and I'm willing to have the conversation right here on this podcast about the relationship of Zionism, of anti Zionism and anti Semitism. I have no problem. Anybody that wants to come talk to me about that, talk to us about that. No problem with it. But I'm going to reject that charge. And I'm gonna say that our energy here is consistent in what we believe for people and what we believe for cultures of people and what we believe for people that don't live here or look like us or share the same experience as us. And that's never gonna change. So that's it. Very sad news. Deangelo has passed away at age 51. You know, I never met D'.

[Isaac Bryan]

Angelo.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Me neither.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Why is this bothering me so much?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Because it's one of those people that you feel like you tie to a certain time in your life and maybe to a coming of age time in your life. At least for me, that's what I do. And so when I think of someone, particularly in music that I think of that way I look at them, I don't wanna say, like, as a family member, but I just feel like I grew up with them and I know that they were like the soundtrack to a certain time in my life. And so I was very big into neo soul music. I felt like that's when I really tried to, like, was kind of discovering who I was. So that music really played a part in that self discovery. And that's DeAngelo's music. Now. Granted, the first album, when it came out in 95, I was only 10, but as Vudu came out in the 2000s, I mean, or 2000, that's my teens, so I'm becoming well versed in Dangelo's music. And even the last album that was, you know, in response to what was happening in our country and it being political, political and revered in that way, it's just DeAngelo was somebody I felt like I knew through their music, and I felt like I learned a lot about myself through their music.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

His family said in a statement. The shining star of our family has dimmed his light for us in this life. After a prolonged and courageous battle with cancer, we are heartbroken to announce that Michael d' Angelo Archer, known to his fans around the world as d', Angelo, has been called home, departing this life today. We are saddened that he can only leave dear memories with his family, but we are eternally grateful for the legacy of extraordinary, extraordinarily moving Music he leaves behind. We all ask that you respect our privacy during this difficult time, but invite you to all join us in mourning his passing while also celebrating the gift of song that he has left in this world. I thought about this with d'. Angelo. The music was so life affirming. Music that's about love and life and circumstance. It does feel different when we lose people. That gave us that kind of thing, that gave us genuine inspiration, connectivity, that literally stirred up the human emotions in us that music is supposed to do just. It feels when d' Angelo made the type of music that you want to see him do good. And that's, that's. I know that feels odd, but there are people that give to you such joy and such artistic bliss that you're like, you know, I hope they're having a good Wednesday, hope they're having a good Thursday. I hope things are going like right now. I hope things are going good for Jill Scott. I do like right now.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

But is there an opposite to that? Are there other people you're like, don't really care how you're doing today.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I don't wanna get into the negative.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Not that you wish bad on people, but you just don't care.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

But right now, do you know how good it would be to just be walking down the street and see Jill.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Scott living her life like it's golden.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

In the sun and having a good time? Erykah Badu. You know how great it would be for me to see Erykah Badu standing and laughing on the sidewalk? That would be great. I'm serious.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I know you are.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

It's like there's all kinds of people, boys to men.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

One time, Drew Hill.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Drew Hill. One time I saw Nate Morris came into the gym, and Nate used to come into the gym in Hollywood and he'd play ball and I'm like, look at Nate. Nate's doing great. That's great. They made Song for Mama and Ooh Ah. That was my joint when I was in, like, you know, Motown, Philly. People give you such good emotion. They give you such good feeling. I just hope they're doing good. Jasmine Sullivan, hope she's great.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

And I think it's interesting you say that because as much as DeAngelo's music gave to us, he silently struggled with the fame and some of the attention that came with particularly the Vudu album. And so, like, being regarded in a way that took away from just the music, just the music, and sexualized him in a certain way. And so it's just interesting to Hear you say that. Because you're right. His music did give us so much and made us feel a certain way. Yet, baby, we didn't make him feel. Don't look at me like that. We didn't make him feel that same way.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Can I tell y' all a d' Angelo story? That's funny. So Ryan Davenport, a friend of mine, shout out to Ryan. I gotta tell him.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I feel like I know what you're gonna say.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

What am I about to say?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

It's something about the video.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

It is.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

It's something about him. And I always thought this. Cause Ryan has braids.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Well, no, it was not. They weren't comparing Ryan to d'. Angelo. But this is a funny d' Angelo story that I remembered. So I think his sophomore year at Louisiana Tech. Yeah, it was sophomore year. Me, Ryan and my friend Justin. This is at Carruthers dorm at Louisiana Tech. Carruthers was the private dorm at Tech. So you had private dorm, no roommate. I was in Carruthers both years. I was at Tech. Right. First year, me. And it was getting popping in the dorm. That's all I'm saying. It's a private dorm. You get.

[Isaac Bryan]

Move along.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I apologize. So me, Ryan and Justin have. I think it was like 7:21, 7:22 and 7:23. It literally was like we had three rooms adjoining. And it was a fun time. We were having fun. One day, I'm in my room and Ryan's girlfriend. I can't remember what her name was at this particular time. I remember she had. It was Tennille and Treasure. Either Tenille was his girlfriend and Treasure was her sister, or Treasure was his girlfriend and Tenille was her sister. Whatever. Ryan's girlfriend knocked on my door and I was like, what's up? And she goes, yo, can I come in and watch tv? I'm like, what? I'm like, yeah. You know, I'm in there getting ready to go. She comes on, she sits down on the bed and she puts it on bet. And the d' Angelo video is on. The how does it feel? Video is on. And she watching the video. I'm watching her. I'm like, what the hell is going on?

[Isaac Bryan]

Right?

[Van Leighton Jr.]

And. And she gets up and she goes, woo. And she goes, okay, I'll see you later. And then she leaves. And she leaves and she walks down the hallway. It's on the elevator. She goes. I go to Ryan's room, of course. And I'm like, yo, what's going on? And he goes, I told her she couldn't watch that in here. I'm like, what? I was like, yeah. I told her, man, she's watching another man. All the whatever, whatever. She want to get all crazy. He got her moving in all kinds of different ways and all of that. You can't watch that. You gotta go somewhere else. And I was like.

[Isaac Bryan]

I let her.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Watch it in my room. She watched it. What? You let her? I'm like, yeah, she sat on the bed and she watched it. I think she was quite moved, got mad at me.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Okay, Ryan, that's ridiculous. But I like her.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

You like?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I appreciate the commitment.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I'm pretty sure her name was Tenille.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I appreciate the commitment.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Shout out to them wherever they at.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I appreciate the commitment of. Oh, okay, that's how you feel. That's not gonna stop me. I'm gonna go right next door and I'm gonna do exactly what I wanna do. I like it. I like the energy. You're not gonna tell me what to do. Cause obvious. Honestly. Sorry, Ryan, it's a ridiculous ask request. And she said, that's fine. I'll get it from another place.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

And that place was me. And I actually now, I guess the question was, if I would have known that they had gone through that.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

You wouldn't have let her watch it.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I just wouldn't want to get in the middle of it in the whole situation with going on. But this is what that Deangelo video had, particularly the ladies at that time going through.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I remember feeling like. Cause, you know, I grew up in such a. Well, I couldn't watch anything. I remember, like, I'd watch music videos while I was eating breakfast in the morning before. Before going to school. And the video would come on and I was like, well, no, I just was like, I hope my parents don't walk in, because I don't think I'm supposed to be watching. I don't think I'm supposed to be watching this. No, this is exactly what he didn't want us to do. He's a. He's a beautiful man.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Hold on, wait. My remembrance of d' Angelo's soul.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

No, I'm saying that. Just piggybacking on what we were saying before. No, yeah, of course. He was a beautiful, beautiful man. Made beautiful music.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

First time I heard Brown Sugar Cruising, I was listening to Cruising. My dad has passed away. Now. I'm gonna talk about that in a second. But I'm listening to Cruising, and I'm into it. And my cruise. My daddy goes, that's that Smokey Robinson. I was like, nah, that's d'. Angelo. My father was like, son, in this house, Cruising is a Smokey Robinson song, okay? And I was like, this one. I had a little rebellion. It's d' Angelo.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Like you refuse to believe it.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

It's not. I didn't. I never heard Smokey Robinson's Cruising before. I heard other songs by Smokey Robinson. And Cruisin to me was a d' Angelo record, and it remains a d' Angelo record. Shout out to Smokey Robinson's Smokey Robinson, right now. There's something that Phil Lewis tweeted. He tweeted out an article and then a list of names and ages. And this article was about how D' Angelo was 51. And this article was about how some of the deaths, the high profile death deaths that we've seen of black men underscores an issue with black male health in America. And he tweeted these names as follows. DMX was 50, Coolio was 59. MF Doom was 49. Craig Mack was 47. Nate Dogg was 41. Prodgy was 42. Shaq G was 57. Black Rob was 51. Irv Gotti was 54. DJ Mr. C was 57. Rico Wade was 52. Trugoi the dove was 54. Fife Dawg was 45, Bismarckie was 57. And of course, not D' Angelo at.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

50 doesn't even capture everybody. Gerald was like, 40.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Yeah. Doesn't capture everyone at all. So I'll say something real quick about this. You know, we've talked about this before about the life expectancy of black men. And it's different in different places. I am from Louisiana. The life expectancy of a black man In Louisiana is 65 years old. 65 years old. I have recently lost an entire generation of black men. All of them. My Uncle David, my uncle Mark, my Uncle Milton, my father all passed away. That entire generation of black men is gone. All of them. My mother's brother, my Uncle Hal, is still with us and he's in great health. I love my Uncle Hal. It's good to see him back in Louisiana. All of my dad's brothers and my father have passed on. Nobody made it to 70. No one. It is a gutting, galling thing to realize that the men that you grew up around, the men that raised you are all gone. They're all gone. And the only thing left is memories, legacies and wishes. And, man, for somebody listening right now, you know, the average age of a white guy in Louisiana is 72 years old. For someone saying, hey, that's seven years or whatever. It's a lot of hugs in seven years. That's a lot of holidays in seven years. That's a lot of lessons. That's a lot of laughs. And black men deserves those hugs and those lessons and those laughs. I'm not so sure that the lifestyle.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Of.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

A hip hop star or someone like that is really representative of the average black man.

[Isaac Bryan]

But.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

So I can't really say how this list really reflects on what the average black man in the south or in New York, wherever would be going through. You know, I don't know. I saw some people make that observation. But this is real. And even in myself, you know, I see myself right now, I'm carrying probably an extra £20 than what I used to. It's something that I think about all the time about how do I give the gift of my presence to people? That. That is a gift to. And what do I demand of myself and from myself to make sure that I can beat some of the forces that exist in this country and in this world that are trying to choke away my life force as a black man?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I was having this conversation with a friend of mine. Cause we were talking about DeAngelo, and it was the same day that he passed. And we were talking about this very tweet. And you know, she has a black boyfriend. And we were just. I was just like, what do you think? Obviously, there's lifestyle, you know, the way a black man has to navigate this world versus a white man. There's obviously that. Obviously things that you've talked about when you talk about the life expectancy in Louisiana and being in proximity to certain things that are harmful to black communities, whether, you know, in the environment and stuff like that. But, you know, she and I were talking, I was like, do you think that it's also the way black people, the community, feels about the medical field or just a distrust of the industry or even a fear. And this is what she was saying about her man. She was like, my guy fears going to the doctor. He fears. And she was telling me a story about how he had this excruciating pain and they were in the emergency room for hours. And when he went back, he came right back out and he was like, nah, they wanna take blood. They wanna do all this. I'd rather just tough it out. And so do you wonder. And I'm saying this not to offer an excuse or anything like that. It's just more of, what can we do? How can we be better? If it is fear that's contributing to it or a distrust because of historically how black people have been treated. When it comes to the medical industry, is there a way that we can rally the community to prolong the life of black men? Black people, do you think? Yeah.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

You know what the most frustrating thing about it is? That it's everything. It's not one thing, it's everything. We can concentrate on one thing at a time, and we can educate ourselves on one thing at a time. Be that diet, be that lifestyle, be that stress, be that healthcare. We can concentrate on one thing at a time, and we can highlight all of these things. But it's everything. If you are. And you know, you guys can say what the fuck you want to say. If you are a black man living in this country, almost everything is engineered to keep you here for the least amount of time that you can be here. Everything. Even in the way. I watched the Alabama Solution on hbo and I watched some of the brothers inside of the prison system in Alabama deal with the lives that they are leading as prisoners. Then I think about the incarceration rates of black men. I think about how black. What a black man has meant to America historically and traditionally, a workhorse of a thing that can die at any time. And then after he is dead, we can litigate and have conversations about the validity of his life. A thing in America, in this country, we've traded culture for survival. We've traded culture, God bless you, for our ability to survive. Hey, I'm gonna dance, I'm gonna joke, I'm going to shoot, I'm going to whatever, sing. In exchange for that. Don't kill me. In exchange for all of that stuff, then I get a chance to live a life that's somewhat like yours is where I eat better food, where I live in a better house, where I have proximity to things that make my life a. A little bit better. And then once you can't trade that, once you're in a position, you can't trade that culture. I mean, we don't get respect for anything else. Right? We're not respected for our contributions in science, our contributions in academia or anything else that we do. Only thing that we get respected for is our cultural contributions. And so those things kind of undergird America's version of whether or not America's vision about whether or not we should be alive or not. And so it's interesting that you see a lot of these brothers that are in entertainment and cancer is indiscriminate in the way that it kills. But a lot of times, after Their peaks are over. You start to see a lot of the health concerns come in. And I don't wanna speak callously' cause I have no idea what's going on in any of these situations, but I care as much that these gentlemen become grandfathers than I do about the albums and the songs and the stuff that they produce. I care as much about that.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

To the health thing, and then we can. To the health thing. You know, I remember when my father was first diagnosed with congestive heart failure. I was watching this. I was in my Best Buy uniform. I'm in the hospital, and he's got fluid all on his body. And, like, one thing that CHF does to you is it, you know, you pit edema. You. You. You can, like. You could press on his leg, and it would, like, leave an indentation on there because he had so much fluid on his legs and on his midsection and all of that. So, you know, he's just peeing, peeing, peeing, peeing, peeing, peeing, peeing, peeing. Because they've given us something to keep. Get the fluid out, and we don't really know what's going on. We're at the Baton Rouge General. The new Baton Rouge General over on Blue Bonnet was a new thing. We don't know what's going on. The doctor walks into the room. We're all in there. My dad's laying down. Like, nobody knows what this array of symptoms really means. He's laying down in the bed, and the doctor says, well, you're in heart failure. Like, you're in heart failure. And it's like 2004, 2005. My dad's still in his 40s, which. To go into heart failure in your 40s is crazy. He's almost 50. He was born at 55, so he's getting closer to 50, but he goes into heart failure. He's still in his 40s. And the doctor goes, yeah, you're in heart failure. My father looks at him and he goes, I'll be all right, though, right? I remember the tension in the doctor's face, because the answer is no. The answer is, this is what's going to kill you. And my father, laying in the bed, viewed himself as someone who was going to be okay. No matter what stuff happens, you go through it. Pain was such a part of his life. Pain. Like, you go out and you work. You pulling concrete, you're doing it. It's painful. But whatever. Pain was something that he gave to me, just a very important thing that he gave to me. Van Sometimes it's gonna be pain. Like you're gonna get pain. Emotionally, you're gonna get pain. Your ability to deal with and overcome pain is actually what makes you a man. So the pain that you might get physically, it's just something that happens and then you get over it and then you're cool. It's pain, but whatever. And looking at my dad in the bed and looking at the doctor, I remember thinking to myself, this is not pain. This is condition. This is the condition that you are in. This is the circumstance that you are in. It's not something that you can tough out. This is the reality of your life, and this will be the reality of your life. And to his credit, he fought it for nearly 20 years until his heart just gave out on him. And I just wish for a different condition for black men that doesn't involve pain. And we'll see if we can affect that over the next generation. But these guys deserve to live. All right, let's take a break. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. The all new 2026 Hyundai Palisade Hybrid doesn't just turn heads. It commands respect. With its stunning exterior, luxurious interior with available captain seats and spacious third row seating. And equipped with advanced technology, you and the family are making a statement before you even step out. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more and experience the all new 2026 Palisade Hybrid today.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

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[Van Leighton Jr.]

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[Rachel and Lindsey]

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[Van Leighton Jr.]

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[Rachel and Lindsey]

Bleached or bromated flour.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Shop low prices and quality at Whole Foods Market in store or online. You can now watch the Ringer on Spotify and the Ringer's first ever. First ever television channel available exclusively on Samsung tv, the subscription free streaming destination bringing you the best of tv. Rewatch some of our greatest hits including live shows, interviews and and more on the all new Ringer channel. You can also settle in and catch up on your favorite other ringer shows including the big picture, the Rewatchables and the Ringer verse. Pew pew. Midnight boys. To watch, open the Samsung TV app on your Samsung TV or Galaxy mobile device. Navigate to the Ringer channel and boom, you're in. Come kick it with U.S. supreme Court voting Rights Act. It looks like it's about to be a dub.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Well, we talked about this. We knew this. We talked about the Voting Rights act specifically. We've talked about it surrounding gerrymandering and what was going on in Texas and the Texas Congress there, at least the Democrats trying to stand against it and what was being done. And within all of that came this case which has been challenged before. This case out of Louisiana, your home state. Y' all doing great things there in Louisiana, of course, making historic. Historic. I mean, listen, my shit neck and neck between Texas and Louisiana. But we talked about this. This is. Deals with. It's not. It's. So we talk about the Voting Rights act has been. This has been in the works. What's happening isn't just with this case specifically where the oral arguments were heard in front of the Supreme Court yesterday, which is why this is getting attention again. But this has been something that has been happening. Republicans have been chipping away at the Voting Rights act for a couple of decades now at this point, or trying to. And this remaining piece from this Louisiana case is the final thing that they need to pretty much get away with the 1965 Voting Rights Act. So right now, I don't think I really need to get into all of it. But basically, this Supreme Court case is particularly centers around the 14th and the 15th Amendments of the Constitution and whether or not creating a second majority black district within the state of Louisiana is a violation of the equal protection clause within the 14th and 15th amendment. And the reason that this even came about is because when the new census came out, it was determined that black people represent a third of the population of Louisiana. But they were trying to draw a map that only gave them representation. Out of the six districts, congressional districts, they were only going to give them one which doesn't represent the black population. So then it was challenged. They got two, a second majority black district. So there was two to represent the 1/3 population, which is a fair representation. It should make sense. Of course, that was then challenged by non black citizens within Louisiana that this was unconstitutional and they were using race to do it, which is something that we talked about with Texas in the gerrymandering. They're saying, oh, it's not racial what we're doing. It's a partisan thing that allows us to do it to give Republicans more of a voice. And that is allowed under through the Supreme Court. Legally, they can do that. So that's a similar argument that they're making here. And the Supreme Court decided back before to not hear this case. And so they allowed the 2024 elections in Louisiana to go move forward with there being two majority black districts. And then it was challenged again in March this year. And the Supreme Court said, you know what? This time we're gonna hear it, but we want you to re argue it. And this time we want you to specifically focus on whether this is a violation of the equal protection clause under the 14th and 15th amendment. And based on the arguments that were made in front of the Supreme Court a couple of days ago, and the justices will ask questions and they'll say certain things based on the way that they were asking questions and the way they were saying things. It is very obvious that they are going to say that it's not allowed for them to have districts based on.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

So we got New Orleans, Baton Rouge grouped together one seat. And then you had. Shreveport was the other district that we had in there that was carved out with black representation so that you could have the representation that you needed from Louisiana. I think the most interesting part about this entire thing is the thing that you said. I want people to understand something. This was argued in March 2025. There was no decision by the court that was issued immediately. The court argued this to be re argued on a different issue. The court looked for the opportunity to nuke this. They took it upon themselves. They said, go back and argued a specific question, whether or not Louisiana's creation of a second majority minority district violates the 14th or 15th amendments. They asked for that. And in these arguments that you hear these people making, particularly Kavanaugh cause, Kavanaugh and Roberts are the holdouts here. What they are essentially saying is, well, we realize that the Voting Rights act was instituted in order to make sure that there was black representation in places in the south where you have vibrant and dense black populations, but that you might not see that representation in the district map drawing so that those people are represented. What Kavanaugh specifically saying is that wasn't meant to last forever. That it was meant to. To last for a time in this mythical time where America had figured out its racial issues. And that we could then trust that all of the voting, particularly in these places in the south, is where it is gonna be most effective for the right would be on the up and up. And that we are there now.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Right?

[Van Leighton Jr.]

That we are there now. To the point we've made it to the point to now that the representation of black people in these specific districts. We're now ready to have a conversation about whether or not we still need to assure that black citizens in the south and Everywhere, really are represented in districts. We're not there. Let me tell you something that I think is very important when we're talking about this. This is obviously something that this court that seems to be an activist court wants to do. It's a part of the DNA and the makeup of this court, which is another reason why I'm so critical of the Supreme Court, period, abolishing the Supreme Court. But I'll say something here. There's cover for this that exists in a cultural way. This is why the demonization of terms like woke or the ideas of pronouns and all of that stuff, the demonization of that and the railing against that type of talk and that type of speech is so particularly dangerous. And I'm not trying to connect two issues. I'm telling you something that I think is deeper, and let me play it out. The term woke has come to mean annoyance for people. It's annoying. Like you hear something, you see something that's trying to incorporate all of the concerns of a group, whatever group that might be, into a cultural conversation, and you go, oh, that's woke. I'm not fucking with that. I just want to have fun. That's woke. Don't tell me how to talk. Don't tell me how to comport myself. That's some woke shit. I don't like that. That's whack. We over that woke shit. The woke has gone too far. Okay? What happens is, to me, is a codification culturally, of an idea that we no longer need to have conversations about where people are vulnerable or about what specific groups of people might need. So when you are able to demonize the idea of a society where you give a little bit of deference or understanding to someone that might have a specific plight in that society, then you, to me, open up the floodgates for people to say, yeah, you know what? And as a matter of fact, we don't need DEI anymore. As a matter of fact, we don't need protections that Dr. King and so many other people fought for in terms of voting and representation, because that is woke shit. It is a woke idea to make sure that black people in the south have districts where they are represented. We don't need that anymore. Why would we need that? Like, we're to the point, we're off the woke shit. And I gotta be honest with you, it's not just white people, white supremacy, in any way, that have got behind the idea that woke is dead or that woke is bad, or that woke is something that we need to move away from. It's become a sort of mainstream talking point from a specific cohort of people that were tired of considering your rights, tired of considering whether or not you get a fair shake in America, because whenever you did that, you came off as woke. Oh, it's woke for me to be able to define who I am. It's woke for me to be able to say, hey, this. It's woke. It's woke. I'm not. Guys, I'm not saying that saying something and being told, hey, you can't say that or you shouldn't say that is the most pleasant thing in the world. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that there's a conversation that needed to be had about how we communicate with each other. I am saying this, though. We are not nearly, nearly to the point in American history where we can pretend like racial, sexual, gender dynamics don't need to be consistently and constantly evaluated for how people are living in this country. We're just not there. We're not there because we're not even trying to get there. What we are trying to do with things like this and other stuff is to pretend like these things aren't reasons or aren't valid so that the good old boys can good old boy again. And anytime that us people, that we adopt these things, we are playing into that narrative. All of this stuff is. If you think that's a leap, I'm telling you, anything that is making the good old boys uncomfortable is getting destroyed. The teaching of African American black history, inclusion at the top levels of a lot of these companies, anything that disturbs their ability to say the N word and the F word and the R word with impunity and making you laugh at it is being looked at as something that's a bridge too far. All of this actual stuff goes along with that. All of this shit with the DEI and the destruction of the affirmative action students, affair missions with Edward Bloom, and all of this stuff is a part of that. It's actually a byproduct of what has to happen first, which is people's cultural acceptance of. You guys talked too loud. You talked too long. Shut the fuck up now.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Yeah, I mean, woke is everything that you're saying. I agree with all of it, too. But I think in addition to all of that, woke became not just something that's annoying to them, but an attack on them. It attacks their very being. And I think the wildest thing about what's being done and the way the 14th and the 15th amendment are being twisted for historically why they were implemented anyway, yes, it was for equal protection under the law, but they're twisting it to say, hey, we're no longer getting equal protection because to your point, as what Kavanaugh is saying, it's we're less racist now than we were back in 1965 when this was implemented. They're saying, so now we don't need it because now it is an attack against us. Historically, that's not why the 14th and the 15th amendment were implemented. That is not why the Voting Rights act was implemented. It was because historically, the history of why these things exist is because of how black people were treated in, in this country. And so just the fact now that you think, oh, we're a little less racist doesn't make any sense to say, well, we're now being persecuted. That's not historic. That's not happening. One, let's just say that it's not happening. They're not being persecuted. We are talking about things that actually happen in time in history. And the mentioning of factual things does not mean you are being persecuted. But that's how this is being twisted now. These things that have been implemented because they were necessary then and are still necessary now, and we will get to a story even more so when which highlights why this is necessary. They're now saying, well, it's being used to attack us and we all should be treated equally under the law. And historically, that is not why it was here in the first place. Which is how they won. Getting rid of affirmative action and other policies that were implemented to provide a fair representation, a fair opportunity for non white people.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Well, there's one place that racism still exists, and that's telegram. It's still alive. They've been able to keep racism going, but only in one place in their innermost thoughts when they think that nobody else is paying attention. It's alive on Telegram. Over seven months and 2,900 pages of messages sent over telegram elected Republicans and leaders of local groups. Young party activists in New York, Vermont, Arizona and Kansas used racist and homophobic language and invoked Hitler and the Holocaust. This was reported by Politico. There was a just tldr. There was a telegram group where all of the different factions of young Republicans were talking. Now, there's been some talk that these were young kids making young kid decisions and all of that stuff like that. Untrue. The young Republicans, for some reason, that's.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

All came from our vice president.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Yeah, yeah, the young Republicans, these are just young kids. It goes from 18 to 40 for some reason. And I should also say that these are people that like, had posts, right? Peter Guinta was the chief of staff to Mike Riley, who's a New York assemblyman. This is somebody who has a job. He posted I love Hitler. This guy was all over the place. He's in the Hitler. William Hendricks, the vice chair of the Kansas Young Republican, said, bro is at a chicken restaurant ordering his food. Would he like some watermelon and Kool Aid with that? That's very important because the Kool Aid watermelon chicken thing is age old. The fact that he is invoking that tells me that he is keeping the tradition of the age old racist tropes that according to some, should have gone away by now. Look, you know, it's funny, you know, just so you guys know, I mean, do you think that this was surprising to us? No, it wasn't surprising. It wasn't surprising. I'm not saying that people don't wild out in their group chats. They wild out in their group chats. I'm letting you know they wild out in their group chats. They do. They wild out. They wild out in their group chats. What you have here is 2,900 pages of elected Republicans and other people having some of the most vile, racist, homophobic, and derogatory conversations that you could pull up and living in it and loving it and reveling in it. Then you expect us to believe that those people don't take those same biases into the halls of wherever they're making law or whatever they're trying to do and don't act on that.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Yeah, they're not doing it for fun. It is not for sport. It is for action, and it is for lifestyle implementation. And we're seeing some of this stuff, like, I mean, not outright like the racist rhetoric that's being put out here just like this, but the sentiment is being put out here from the government and even in the decisions that the court is making. So when I made the reference before about Kavanaugh and he's like, well, things aren't as bad. No, they are. This is what's happening behind closed doors. And J.D. vance, I think that his statement and how he's just brushing it off. Do you think J.D. vance would do that? He. If it was somebody who wasn't white?

[Van Leighton Jr.]

We're not canceling kids because they do something stupid in a group chat. And if I have to be the.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Person who carries that message forward, I'm fine with it.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

By the way, if they were left wing kids telling stupid Left wing jokes. I would also not want their lives to be ruined because they're saying something stupid in a private group chat.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

If it was somebody who was a Democrat, liberal in any kind of way, independent, anybody that did not align with his beliefs or look like him, do you think that he would have the same response?

[Van Leighton Jr.]

No.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

No. And my question to J.D. vance would be because he said, these are just young kids. I don't want this to ruin their lives. They shouldn't be held to this one thing for just, you know, being kids. Right. Which you have already said they were 18 to 40. At what age should we start holding people accountable for this type of rhetoric? That would be my question to J.D. vance. At what age do we say actually now you're too old for that? I would love for him to answer that question. And he wouldn't. Right. He would probably just say, oh, you're just. This is a distraction, as he said in all of this. It's just a distraction. But the important thing is, and you said this as to who makes up this group. It's people who work in the government. It's people who work on. Within politics. It's one guy as a state senator. These are people who are making decisions on a local level who probably have aspirations to be even more involved in the government on a national level. This is how they feel when no one is looking around. This is what they think. This is what they say. We are a joke to them. We are disposable to them. We are inhumane to them. As one of them talked about saying, watching us is like going to the zoo. This is how they think and this is how they make policy that excludes, that separates us from. From them because this is how they view us versus how they view themselves. And so when J.D. vance is like, oh, we shouldn't pay attention to this. These people will act on this because we're already seeing actions happen within our government. Like I said, that is based off a very similar sentiment. We are nothing. They are everything.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

The response is actually worse than the group chats.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I will agree. We should say there are some Republicans who are. Which I think makes what JD Vance saying even more deplorable. There are Republicans that are condemning the actions of the people in this group. Even some people who are a part of other young Republican organizations, national level.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

There's young Republican schism.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

And there's all types of.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

So they are condemning allegations.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

They're allegations that this was made public by one young Republican group that's trying to get at the other one, it's fucking Game of Thrones for the young Republican races. But what I'm saying is, so even some of the condemning that's coming from them might not actually even be in good faith because they got beef is up with this group, which is why the fucking text came out in the first place. What I'm talking about is I watched the News Nation thing last night, and I watched Adam Mockler ask one of Charlie Kirk's producers or someone like that to just straight up condemn it. And they're having problems doing it. Having problems doing it, to me, really reinforces the problem. The issue that we're having right now, and the issue that we're having right now is just easy ways to say, this is wrong, we need to be better, and these people need to learn lessons before they're allowed to wield any power in American political dialogue. It's just bridge too far for somebody.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

You cannot deny that this is racist.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

All right, you know what? Let's get to our interview with Isaac Bryan. Right now, implementing Isaac Bryan. Let's see what he's got to say about Gavin Newsom. Some of the things with reparations and everything that went on. Isaac was very well dressed for this interview. Let's get to it. Okay, you guys, Isaac Bryan joins us today on Higher Learning. How are you doing, brother?

[Isaac Bryan]

I'm good, man. It's good to be with you.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

You represent California's 55th Assembly District, and it consists of what?

[Isaac Bryan]

Leimert park, the Crenshaw Corridor, Baldwin Hills View Park, Ledera Heights, Culver City, Century City, Miracle Mile, Pico, Robertson, Mid City, basically the west side and the south side of la.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

So if you guys are listening to this and you're not familiar with the geography of Los Angeles, the places that he just mentioned are some of the most important and influential black communities, not just in LA or in Southern California, but in the country. And that is not an oversimplification or an exaggeration. You. We're having you on the podcast right now because we have. First of all, we know a lot of the same people, and I gotta call somebody out right now. So every. Every Sunday, I've been running over there at the Crenshaw Y. I wanna shout out everybody at the Crenshaw Y. The run is fantastic. It's a great group of different characters. At the Crenshaw Y that runs on Sunday morning, you get a nice. When you start learning the backstories, it's such. You got dudes in there. It's like, I'm 22. I could still hoop. I'm putting one guy on there. Putting them on with different colleges. Another dude is a ex army dude. Whatever. It's a great group of black men over there that's playing and a couple of Hispanics and one white boy. It's one white boy out there.

[Isaac Bryan]

But he's nice, though.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

But he goes, shoot. He got the big arcing shot. Nick May is my boy. Y' all hear me mention Nick on the pod all the time. And he's one of the guys that runs the Crenshaw. Yeah. And he's a mutual friend.

[Isaac Bryan]

Absolutely.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

But he's never connected us.

[Isaac Bryan]

He hasn't. I'm a little disappointed.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

What is Nick doing?

[Isaac Bryan]

I don't know. He's busy taking care of the community.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

That's crazy.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

That's a great answer. Leave Nick alone. Some friend. Mansa B. Van's friend is tough. It's tough.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Cause there's a standard.

[Isaac Bryan]

It's tough.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Okay. There's a standard. Nick is my guy. Like my brother. Like, I love Nick. Okay. I saw a tweet that you tweeted, and it is Twitter. You spoke directly to Gavin Newsom. Now, it wasn't based on anything that happened in our interview with Gavin Newsom, but it was based on legislation that he VetoeD. He vetoed five bills that spoke to reparative justice for black Californians. And your tweet read, the governor and I have done incredible work across many issue areas, but this is beyond disappointing, and we cannot stop pushing for what our people deserve, especially in this moment. What exactly did Gavin Newsom veto that made you send this tweet out for me?

[Isaac Bryan]

It was AB7, a bill that would have allowed for colleges across California to consider if somebody is a descendant of American chattel slavery in the admissions process. It was a carefully crafted, thoughtful piece of legislation that would open us up to a broader conversation about exclusion in our institutions of higher learning.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Okay. Why is it so important?

[Isaac Bryan]

It's so important because with the affirmative action rulings with Prop 209, we know that black students have been disproportionately impacted. We also know that our universities were built, in many cases, by slaves. I'm thinking of Georgetown and other universities who also were then barred from attending these universities. That's part of why we have such deep education gaps. Those education gaps, particularly in higher learning, lead to income and wealth gaps. So if you want to close the wealth gap, you want to put more money in our pockets, you got to let more people into these institutions of higher Learning, particularly people who have been excluded, and that's the descendants of American chattel slavery.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

What would you say to people who like critics such that, Bill particularly, who said, well, this wouldn't have been able to. The reason it was vetoed is because it wouldn't be able to withstand the 2023 Supreme Court decision on affirmative action.

[Isaac Bryan]

I said, bring it. We knew we had that ahead of time. That's why the California Black Lawyers association stepped all the way in the paint with us on this. We had constitutional scholars lined up across the country because Clarence Thomas, who's no friend of mine and no friend of ours, probably said in his affirmative opinion of that affirmative action case that if this was about Friedman, if this was about American chattel slavery, it would on its face be race neutral, which is part of the language we lean into. While we're leaning into the legacy of harm, we're leaning into a lineage based form of repair and not a racial proxy. If you were going to take us to court, I think that's the kind of court case that black folks deserve. Remember, folks didn't want to see Brown versus Board of Education either.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Right. So you're ready for the court case.

[Isaac Bryan]

You'Re ready for the court case, you're ready for the court case.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

You deserve that and you expect that challenge.

[Isaac Bryan]

I would have expected that challenge immediately. In fact, Ed Blum, who funded the affirmative action case, was saying, from the second I introduced this bill, I'm going to sue on it. And we were just sitting over here, Bring it. In fact, it would be the California Department of Justice who would have had to defend this case. And it's the same Department of Justice who helped anchor the reparations report to begin with. And so that's something I think we deserved, and I think we missed this opportunity.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

You know, Blum's goal is to get these things to the Supreme Court. If that's his goal, his goal is to get it on a home field so that then the Supreme Court can render a decision that's been favorable to him and other fights that he's taken up, you know, students for Fair missions, all of that stuff like that. If it had gotten to the Supreme Court, do you think that you could have won the case?

[Isaac Bryan]

You know, I'm not sure.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Right.

[Isaac Bryan]

But I think we deserve that chance and we deserve that fight. This Supreme Court has tripped us up before with some decisions that were actually favorable. Right. Remember, Obamacare went to the Supreme Court and Justice Roberts was the swing, a Bush appointee. And so I think we're a little more imbalanced than we were then now, but we definitely deserve that conversation. And if they were gonna shoot it down, then we needed to be very clear that the Republican Supreme Court, many appointed by President Donald Trump, just shot down any idea that descendants of American slavery should be given any preferential treatment or any type of resources. So, folks, quit getting confused about who's fighting for us and who's not fighting for us, because we got a lot of Trump supporters who believe that's the pathway to reparations. And it's crazy.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I like this. You know why? Let me tell you why. A lesson from my father. My dad was coaching us in basketball, which is a terrible thing. My father didn't know anything about basketball, right? But my father's coaching us for basketball, and there's a defender that's in conflict. And I remember my friend goes, well, if I leave my guy, then he's gonna make the pass. And when he makes the pass, that guy's gonna score. So I'm on my guy. My dad was like, make him make the pass. Put him in conflict. You're in conflict. Put him in conflict. Make him do the thing. And if you make him do the thing, he might fuck it up, he might make a mistake, whatever, but make him do the toughest thing. I always think about that, because sometimes, whatever the odds are, it's about putting whatever's against you in conflict, putting it on front street, making them off balance, and getting that case in front of the Supreme Court, if for no other reason than to show Americans that there is a part of this country that does not want to see reparative justice. Restorative justice, should I say, would have been a very important thing. I'll ask you a broader question about Governor Newsom.

[Isaac Bryan]

Yeah.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Has he been an ally in the fight for reparations in California?

[Isaac Bryan]

I think he's been an ally to black people. I think the fight for reparations is complex, and I think it's evolving. California is definitely at the forefront. I mean, we have other states that won't even explore a task force, Right. So not only have we explored a task force, we've established a formal agency in the state. Both of those happened under the governor. He's done some other things that have been very beneficial to our folks, whether it's on the criminal legal front. I mean, even this year, he put $10 million in ongoing money with me to increase the wages of incarcerated firefighters. He ended the use of secret police deals where they sign away their misconduct agreements when they get fired so that you can't look up the bad shit that they did. He has been an ally on many fronts, but I think on this one, we saw 50. 50 at the end of this session. Right.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Why?

[Isaac Bryan]

Because 10 bills hit the desk and you only signed five of them. Back when I was in school. 50. 50 is an F. And I think, you know, I think in this case, some failures were made. But I think he's got another year in office. And, you know, I think we all continue to grow and push forward, and I'm still optimistic that we can do more work next year.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

So Governor Gavin Newsom came on this podcast and he talked and he spoke passionately about reparations and what he's done for the black community. And he said that he signed a bill and that was an announcement. It hadn't been. It wasn't known yet. And a lot of people were circulating that clip around and, you know, praising Gavin. Gavin Newsom for what he's done with reparations in the state of California. But then it quickly came out that he vetoed five other bills.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Right.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Why do you think he passed SB518 and then vetoed the five others?

[Isaac Bryan]

You know, I don't know why he vetoed the five others. Right. You know, I know there's a lot of people advising the governor on a number of different things. I reached out to him directly on AB7. So I know he was thinking about it and there was deep consideration. But I think he also knew we have to establish a formal agency in California. That that's something that he can do, he should do. It'll outlive him. It allows for the work to continue beyond him. And so I think it was important for him to do that. But I will say, you won't see me in any of the photos of that bill signing because I couldn't get back fast enough. Cause I was actually leading a delegation of 20 legislators down to Selma, Alabama. We were at Bryan Stevenson's lynching memorial. And I remember getting the call that he's signing this tomorrow. It won't be public. If you want to come back, you know, to be in the photo op. And I was like, you know, I'm actually here doing this deep history dive with a number of my colleagues, many who are not black, and having this deep learning experience. And as I'm walking through, I'm like, and there's no way he's going to not sign the other ones. Right. And, you know, a few days later, you know, I was a little bit surprised.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

So for people listening to this, I think if I'll cut to the chase. If we take everything out, everything else out, that we might have issues with the governor on or any political official politician on, and we boil it down to one issue, what we want to know from people is whether or not they are supportive of reparations, supportive of restorative justice, or whether or not there is something that they are stubbing the. Their toe on before they get to the finish line on it. I'm gonna talk about Westmore and Maryland in a second. I don't know how much you know about that situation, but as someone here who has done a lot of the work, a lot of the political work, I know, of course, there's activist work and all kinds of other stuff. I guess the question is, do you count the governor as an ally in reparations and restorative justice? Do you count him as an ally, or was this such a setback that you have reassessed your relationship with him on this particular issue?

[Isaac Bryan]

I count the governor as an ally. I count the governor as a friend. I know he's got a good heart and good intentions. I think he made a political miscalculation on this one. I'll stand by that. I would tell him that, but I think I know him well enough to know that he wants to make a positive difference for all people and black people.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Then why didn't he.

[Isaac Bryan]

I know. That's the question I'm having, too, but I know what the ops look like. Let's just be clear about that. I know what the ops look like.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Tell us about that. Okay. Because, listen, the reason why. Tell us about that. Because for me, a guy who is not. And listen, we've talked about this before. Not entrenched in the middle of the political process. Right. People say this all the time. We're idealists. We're leftists who don't understand the way government works. I had somebody on. On Twitter say that, you know, I didn't know civics, and I understand civics and the way that it works, but what I want to know is that I can count on people to do specific and certain things. Okay. So when you say you know what the ops look like.

[Isaac Bryan]

Yeah.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

You're talking about from a political framework, a political sense. Right. What does an OP look like? And if an OP is not someone who doesn't sign the bill to get you the thing that you want, then what is an opinion?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Yeah.

[Isaac Bryan]

Yeah. I think ops can be significantly more dangerous than that. Okay. Right. And I think Like I said with the governor, he signed some bills, right? He signed this bureau into law, he signed the task force into law. There's some movement there. The ops are trying to destabilize the entire movement. I'll give you an example of when I call him by name, Bill as Saleh, Republican, used to serve with me in the legislature. Some folks got confused by his rhetoric, by his maneuvering, and believed that he would be the one to deliver reparations for, for California, despite the fact that he would go on Fox News Nightly and say that he believes it's unconstitutional and he was just whipping folks up. He had the chair of the California Task force sitting next to him in an interview pumping this dude up. You know, he's the U.S. attorney now over Los Angeles, the one who's raiding our streets, the one who's locking up protesters. He said some of the most anti black things I've ever heard on the assembly floor. But he spun up a section of our community to believe that the Democrats were so bad and the black bourgeoisie are so bad that we gotta go over here. This is our pathway. And I think that's significantly more harmful and more destabilizing to the movement than somebody who makes the wrong political calculation one time and might seek to try to repair that in the future.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

So I guess with him having such limited time in office, next year's a big year.

[Isaac Bryan]

It's gotta be.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

And you've even referred to, you know, we're past the window dressing in regards to reparations. Do you think that based on what you've seen so far and with the limited amount of time that he will ever make a full commitment to reparations or will he continue to kind of thread the needle?

[Isaac Bryan]

I tell you, I'm only on this podcast and I'm only talking about this because I expect some big things from the governor in this last year. The entire Legislative Black Caucus does. I'm vice chair of the Black caucus, right? There's 2 million black people in California, the largest black population west of the Mississippi. We need to see a final showing from the governor. And this agency was a big move. These five vetoes were also a big move. And so if we call this a wash, then let's close out strong next year.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Right? And part of putting your best foot forward politically is making sure that even the people that you caucus with understand that they can do things that you don't fuck with. And if you don't fuck with them, you want to put the pressure on to make sure that they understand what delivering for you looks like.

[Isaac Bryan]

But it's always, you know, it's call in, not call out. Which is why I'm going to stand on the fact that the governor's a good man and he's got a good heart and he's not an opposite. I'm just really disappointed right now.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Okay, fair enough. Let's move to a broader discussion of reparations and restorative justice and the assault that it's under right now. Okay. Are you familiar with the veto that Governor West Moore was involved in some time ago? Are you familiar with it?

[Isaac Bryan]

I am.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

What were your thoughts on it?

[Isaac Bryan]

I think. I think it's a very different situation than California. California's never had a black governor. If we had a black governor who sets the budget priorities for the entire state and then revises them in May and then formally has to sign the budget, there's so much you can do. You almost don't have to have a task force. So I understand where Wes was coming from, but then you gotta show up and step up and step into that. But I think what he was trying to get ahead of was the confusion that arose from our task force and some of the things thereafter. Problem is, by vetoing, that, that confusion started anyway. So in many ways, he was in a lose, lose, no matter what. Also, you establish that task force, it might not complete its work until he's already out. So does he not move on reparative justice or reparations until he leaves? Or does he say, you know what, squash this. Let's do some stuff right now? And I believe he's put several hundred million dollars into the budget directly to do some repair work and building on that. Right. And we've seen that legacy in Tulsa and other places where if you've got. If you've got the political will already ready to go, there's stuff that can happen. There were a number of recommendations, by the way, in the California Reparations Task Force that we were already pushing into law. There were laws that were already passed that matched recommendations from that task force report that even I wrote before it came out. Because some of us came into office with that repair mindset. That's why we ran. Right. You know what I mean? Reparations type work, reparative justice type work, mitigating the harms impacting our community, trying to help folks who are struggling, especially black folks. That's why we ran. And so, you know, I think some of the politics around Governor Moore's decision overshadow the need to just do the work.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

That's what I was going to ask you. Do you think that the reparations should strictly be monetary? Do you think that it should be an incremental approach similar to what you're talking about with the road to repair, whether it's home loan assistance, college admissions programs, or something like that to help out, or do you think it should be a combination of both?

[Isaac Bryan]

I think reparations in its truest form is monetary compensation. But I don't think you can get there without some formal structure first, which includes constitutional precedent. You need legal precedent. For example, in California we have Proposition 209 says, I can't do anything in the government based on race. But we have some things that we would think are racial proxies that are not racial proxies. For example, if I were to do legislation for undocumented communities. Undocumented is not a race. I know what we are all thinking. But undocumented people can come from anywhere around the world and, and identify racially in various different ways. We have to figure out whether lineage based harm repair can stand legal scrutiny. That's one of the questions AB7 was going to pose. It's one of the questions a number of the bills that he vetoed could have posed. There's been no legislation anywhere in the country that is specifically for the descendants of American chattel slavery. And I know that if there ever is anywhere, it'll be legally challenged. And that court case matters for all of us around the country.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

How does it withstand legal scrutiny?

[Isaac Bryan]

I think in the ways that Clarence Thomas talked about it during the affirmative action case. And the fact that there is some precedent, particularly after emancipation, for direct benefits for freedmen and freed emancipated slaves.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Look, so there are gonna be white people listening. And I'll tell you something. Nothing makes white people groan more than reparations. It's a groaner. Okay, CT is back there and CT is running the boards and he's probably. Oh, God, reparations again. Come on, man, let's talk about Kanye. But it's a groaner. It's something that makes people think that here come the blacks again, asking for something for nothing. I want you right. Now you're talking. You're very polished. You come in here, look, he's dressed, he's got the chains. You're polished. You know your shit.

[Isaac Bryan]

Wish he had me on sooner.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Make the case. Why reparative justice, restorative justice?

[Isaac Bryan]

Why?

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Reparations is a fundamental issue in American history, American present and American future.

[Isaac Bryan]

Yeah, you know what makes white folks grown more than reparations?

[Van Leighton Jr.]

What?

[Isaac Bryan]

Being called racist slavery. And grappling with this history that, you know you benefited from, that you were not directly a part of. And grappling your whole life with what do I do? With reconciling those truths and many folks that manifests in trying to treat people right. I mean, trying to be a good person and stepping up and trying to vote a certain way. Reparations is part of that conversation. You can't truly heal something until you repair the harm. Malcolm X said, if you stab me in my back and you pull the knife out six inches, that's not justice. You pull it out all the way, that's not justice. Healing the wound is justice. Until we have full repair and full accountability for the harm that's been done, we can never really reconcile the relationship with black folks in this country and this country itself. And we've had that kind of repair before. When we did Japanese internment camps in World War II, right, we rounded up Japanese Americans and Japanese folks, we put them in internment camps afterwards, we realized that was wrong and we provided immediate reparations for that. And because of that, we were able to move on and reflect on that history, learn from it, not do it again, but know that we've stepped up and made amends with slavery. We never made amends. And now it gets scary because the amends become so costly, because the disadvantages associated with having been enslaved in this country have stacked on top of each other for generations. It's impacted wealth. It's impacted job ownership, homeownership. It's impacted life expectancy. It's impacted every part of black life in this country. And that's a lot of repair that's due, which is why we can't shy away from it, especially in this moment.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Last question for me, because I want you to respond to this. William Darity, your guy, Sandy Darity.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Sandy Darity. You love.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

You love. Well, I.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

You about to say something about Dr. Darity.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Well, I did not know that he was a consultant on the California or California's reparation tax.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

By the way, I don't know him, but I'm a big. No.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

But you reference him all the time. That's why I'm like, that's your guy. That's your guy.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Somewhat a deity.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I'm not about to say anything about. I know how much you revere him.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I read the book every year.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I'm not about to say anything bad.

[Isaac Bryan]

Church of Darity is here.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

What I'm Gonna say is, I did not realize. Like I said, he was a consultant on the reparations task force, and he said that he believes that it is financially impossible for state and local governments to implement reparations. Because. Because closing the wealth gap in California would cost more than the entire state budget. What's your response to that? And I guess more so it's like speaking to people who are critical of reparations. If someone like Dr. Darity is saying that it's actually impossible to do, how is it that black people achieve reparations?

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Can I clarify something real quick?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Sure.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

All right. I'm caping right now, but I think that the reason why he might be saying that is because his focus might be on a federal. He's talking about $14 trillion. Yeah. So he's talking about $14 trillion of reparations, and that can't happen at a state level. He's keeping his target on what he believes the federal government's responsibility is for reparations. That might be why he's saying that. I'm sorry.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I wasn't saying it in a critical way. I wasn't saying it because I know that that is a thought that people have, oh, it's gonna cost the state too much. I even think Gavin Newsom said something about one of the times he vetoed a bill is because it didn't fit within the budget. So I think it's important to address someone who you love made reference to it, and then the governor himself has made reference to that as well, about the budget, if you could address that.

[Isaac Bryan]

Yeah. So I definitely agree with what Van said about, you know, Darity has always had a focus on the federal government making these amendments. Actually didn't believe the states should jump into this at all. And that's a valid perspective to have as a scholar. Interestingly enough, a little more on my background. I came out of UCLA before I was in office. I founded the Black policy project at UCLA. I was the first expert witness to testify for Dr. Shirley Weber in support of the task force. I wasn't even in office yet. I was just a scholar at ucla. I'm cited in the criminal justice section of the reparations report. I think, like a half dozen times. The Black Policy Project that I founded did the economic analysis that is in the report. Professor Michael Stoll came out of MIT faculty over at the School of Public Policy at ucla. Did that work? Incredible Black scholar. And so just some scholarship background. I respect Dr. Darity's work. I respect his belief that the federal government should bear this burden alone. I also think we all have to do our part. We have to do it on an individual level and we have to do it at a state level. I think if we can even do it even more micro targeted, at a county, at a city level, Whatever we can do to do to improve the conditions of black life or for struggling people, and especially those who can trace their lineage back to the greatest sin in our country's history, we have to do that. So if we can't do it all at once, that's all right. Take a step forward and take more steps forward. Just don't send us backwards.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Yeah, that probably has to do with even something like Bruce's Beach.

[Isaac Bryan]

Correct.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Where is a very specific, injurious thing that happened to a specific community that you can make right through legislation and all of that stuff like that.

[Isaac Bryan]

I'll give you another example. Right here in south la, not far from the Crenshaw ymca, the largest urban oil field in the country is the Inglewood oil field. Right? You see it coming up at lax. Black folks live all around it. It's been harming our life expectancy. It's been lowering our life expectancy. Higher asthma rates, higher rates of heart condition. We passed a piece of legislation two years ago to close that oil field by 2030 and requires that oil company to pay an annual fine of nearly $20 million that can only be reinvested within two miles of that oil field. That's black communities. That's environmental reparations.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

That's justice right there.

[Isaac Bryan]

That's justice right there. And the governor signed that bill in the field. Another reason I'm not gonna call this man an op. Right. I think you gotta call some folks in, let them know when you think they made a mistake. But you've gotta continue to do the work. And the governor has done a lot of the work. And our community has benefited from that work. But we need to see a strong final year. But that's an example of what I would call environmental reparations. It doesn't get us everything we need, but that's justice.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Last question before you get outta here. And we really appreciate your time. And shame on Nick. Reparations is a conversation that we've seen explode. Yeah, explode. I wanna give credit to a lot of people now. Sometimes when you say these names, people don't like it.

[Isaac Bryan]

Sure.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Okay. But if you talk about Ados, if you talk about Tone talks, if you talk about Yvette Carnell, if you talk about people, Tone is a constituent okay, exactly. UCLA grad, right?

[Isaac Bryan]

Yeah.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Yeah. You talk about these people going a long time ago, and there's so many different political factions that exist inside of. Of black America. But this fight has been going on. I remember first hearing about reparations coming back to the forefront mid 2010s, even earlier than that. People have been working a lot longer than that. But when you see it on Twitter and you see this and you see it, you see it start to happen. And people are saying, this is the issue for black people of our times. Another thing that goes along that along with that sometimes is the conversation about who is entitled to these reparations.

[Isaac Bryan]

Right.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

And it's a conversation that sometimes people think drifts into identity xenophobia. When we talk about specifically black Americans, ADOs or FBA or however you want to put it. I am as that as it gets. My people come from the soil of South Louisiana, and I trace my. This is my ancestral home.

[Isaac Bryan]

Sure.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I trace my lineage all the way back to those people that did that thing there. I understand that. Who is entitled to the reparations? How are they entitled to them? Is in any way the cultural part of this limiting or dissecting or harmful to the idea of a strong diaspora of black people even here in America?

[Isaac Bryan]

That's a beautiful question. And we were just talking about our roots in Dallas County, Texas, I believe, when you're talking about reparations.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Dallas.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Oh, I don't know why. You got a whole lot.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

He was born in Irving.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Oh, you was born in Irving. Yeah. I don't know why. I just felt like if we went back far enough, I might see some Trinidad Tobago or whatever, but that's okay.

[Isaac Bryan]

You know, I think. I think if you're talking about reparations, that's repair for folks who were harmed. And the folks who were harmed in this country by American chattel slavery were the folks who were enslaved during American chattel slavery and their descendants. That doesn't mean that we're, you know, not also required to root out systemic racism. Right. And systemic injustice. We can fight for all black people and also be very clear about who's deserving specifically of reparations for American chattel slavery. And there are other countries that have to engage in this conversation with people in their countries. Right. Because we know that the slave trade impacted more than just the United States. But our responsibility here is to take care of the folks who were enslaved here and their descendants thereafter. But I think it's also why we don't want to get too lost in Some of the tribal cultural fights internally in the community or externally, And I'll give you an example of that. When the military is rolling down through our streets and the Supreme Court is saying racial profiling is. Is okay, and they're nabbing folks without due process and not allowing them to have lawyers. That is also a black issue. So you might say, like, hey, these brown folks doing this, this. And no, no, no. That's a solidarity moment. And we have to step up in that moment, too. Right? We can fight for reparations. We can fight for all black people, and we can fight for systems that are fair to all people because we know when they're harming somebody. We're not too far off that list.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Isaac. Bryan, I hope to see you out there hooping, bro. Because I'm ready, bro.

[Isaac Bryan]

I'm ready.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I'm just letting you know.

[Isaac Bryan]

You said Sundays.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I'm Sundays, man. Crenshaw, y' all come out there. We. We can hoop. I just let you know I'm getting my game back. I talked about it, that, you know, my knees was hurting. I've been rehabbing my knees.

[Isaac Bryan]

We don't wanna hear about them knees, man.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I'm 45 years old. I'm saying I've been getting my game back. Just ask the people. I've been getting my game back.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Well, you can go witness it for us and report back. It's really happening down there on Sundays.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

We are excited to be connected with you, and we are going to keep our eyes on this issue, please. We are going to keep our eyes on this issue. I think there are a lot of people that are listening right now that. I wouldn't say that they're surprised, but I'll put you like this. Once again, we have the ability on the podcast to not have to go get votes, to not have to go shake hands, to not have to go negotiate anything.

[Isaac Bryan]

Right.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

We get the opportunity. We are legitimately looking at the plays on the field and going, that's a bad play call. And then eating the wings. Right?

[Isaac Bryan]

Right.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

But we are also the governed. We are the people that these policies are going to affect, and we want to make sure that we have a say in them. I think that a lot of people might be surprised to hear that you have such a good relationship with Governor Newsom. I know Governor Newsom can be a polarizing character, but I think it was important to hear that you guys have been able to get a lot of good work done. But you expect more out of him, and we can expect more out of people even that we are in political agreement with most of the time.

[Isaac Bryan]

Right.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

And so I think that was an important message to hear and we will support you as you make your run to governor.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

You know, like, come on, man's always trying to get somebody to make a run.

[Isaac Bryan]

This took a time.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

We would love to see that.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I mean, that's my thing is always. I always look at these people and be like, hey, why don't you do it? I'll support you. Okay. At least you won't be mean to people that's interviewing you like some other people running for. Darling, you know what? That's it.

[Isaac Bryan]

That's it.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I appreciate you, bro.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Thank you so much for joining us.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

On Higher Learning, man. Peace.

[Isaac Bryan]

Absolutely.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Hi, it's Eva Longoria. And let's be real. After 40, we should ask for more from our skincare. I swear by Revolution. Vitalift triple power Moisturizer by l' Oreal Paris. With vitamin C pro, retinol and hyaluronic acid, it reduces my wrinkles, firms and brightens. And it's not a procedure, it's just a hard working moisturizer. Revitalift triple power moisturizer by l' Oreal Paris. Grab it today in fragrance, free or with SPF 30. Available at your local Walmart.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

This episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big let's hype up workout clothes guy, but Vuori, I gotta say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around.

[Isaac Bryan]

Los Angeles, probably going to see me.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Wearing some Viori Sunday performance joggers that they have. It's made with four way performance stretch fabric, one of the most comfortable things you own. You will wear them everywhere, I promise.

[Isaac Bryan]

All you have to do is go.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

To vuori.com Simmons and you get 20% off your first purchase with Vuori. V u O-R-I.com Simmons. Enjoy. Free shipping on all US orders over $75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. All right. I loved it. It was great. I like what the young brother had to say.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I'm sure we will need him on in the future.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

We certainly will. Stephen A. Smith.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

We're getting to a point with him. Well, we're getting to a point where I'm about to not even want to talk about it.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Fine.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Because I. Okay, so. So not to cut you off, but Stephen A. Smith had some words about Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett on his podcast.

[Isaac Bryan]

Play it.

[Stephen A. Smith]

When I point to a Jasmine Crockett. It's because here's what I know. All I ever hear her doing is going off about Trump. Ladies and gentlemen, can I tell you what my belief is? I have no desire to be a politician. Let me reiterate that. And I appreciate House leader, Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries speaking to me in the way that he did by saying that I speak with the frustration of the American people. Because you damn right I do. Let me tell you what gets me annoyed. And I hope Jasmine Crockett is listening to this. By the way, she's welcome on the show. When you go on national television and you call in the President of the United States out of his name, and you're being all disrespectful as a representative in this country, do you believe the citizens of Texas sent you there to do that? They don't like him either. I'm talking about those who voted for her, in all likelihood. But because he is who he is and he is in that position, they expect you to go to Capitol Hill and figure out a way to maneuver yourself through that terrain to work in a fashion that's going to facilitate getting things done on behalf of your constituents. That's your job. That's your job. Excuse my language on Sirius xm, but it ain't your job to say, he ain't shit. He ain't worth a damn. That's not your job. Anybody could do that. He's a deal maker. And if you figure out a way to make him look good in any way, quid pro quo is something he lives by. He'll reciprocate. If you know that, why, you can't figure it out.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

It's that hard.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

All right, so Stephen A. Smith had to have to say about Jasmine Crockett, to which he was highly criticized. Yeah, highly criticized from people within the community, from people saying, why would you even. Are you going after her? He's making accusations as if she's never done anything without even knowing her track record on all the things that she has done and continues to do in the committees that she sits on within Congress. Jasmine Crockett does a lot. In addition to calling out the other side, as one should. She represents the district that my parents live in. That is exactly the per. The type of person that I want representing us. One who gets things done, but equally keeps her foot on their necks. That's what I want. I don't want to sit in silence. I want to feel. I feel Jasmine Crockett when she is speaking. I want to feel that you are just as passionate, just as upset about the things that are happening as your constituents. That is what I want. So a lot of people had issues with what he has to say and then wondered, why are you going after Jasmine Crockett when there are other people who are equally as critical and don't look like and aren't a black woman? So particularly, people were saying. Some people were saying he should be canceled. Some people were saying, hey, this is just you. You're being misogynistic. You're going after a woman, particularly a black woman. And then Stephen A. Had this to say to follow up in response.

[Stephen A. Smith]

But I'm not y'.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

All.

[Stephen A. Smith]

And the one thing that will never happen, I will never succumb to, I.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Will never surrender to never, never surrender.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Is somebody intimidating and trying to rally folks against me to quell what I have to say. Bump that.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Bump it.

[Stephen A. Smith]

I ain't built that way. Facts are facts. Jasmine Crockett is a representative out of Texas.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

That is a fact.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Who I believe hearts in the right place is incredibly passionate.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

That's an opinion definitely.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Intelligent with a damn.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I say that's a fact. Keep playing.

[Stephen A. Smith]

All I'm saying is, is that at some point in time when you want to get things done, you gotta walk across the aisle and deal with people that you don't want to deal with. I've been in this business for over 30 years.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

It's a fact.

[Stephen A. Smith]

There is a level of success that I have been blessed and fortunate by God to achieve. There is no doubt that I have encountered people that I believe are racist as hell or no good or certainly didn't have our community's interests at heart in any way. And somehow, some way, you have to work with them.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Okay.

[Stephen A. Smith]

You have to work for them sometimes.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Oh, wow.

[Stephen A. Smith]

You have to deal with them even here on YouTube. Do you know something?

[Van Leighton Jr.]

No. Tell me. If you say.

[Stephen A. Smith]

If you speak the way that Jasmine Crockett has spoken, sometimes that stuff gets flagged. Sometimes it doesn't even get disseminated. This notion that you can do what you want to do, when you want to do it, how you want to do it to whomever you damn well please while still having your hand out.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

For other people's assistance.

[Stephen A. Smith]

It's not how things get done y' all are talking about and alluding to being real and authentic. I'm talking about something more than that. Winning. Go in the midterms. You gonna win the presidency? Are you gonna get power and relevancy back in our United States government? Because you see that's what Hakeem Jeffries has to deal with. That's what Chuck Schumer has to deal with. That's what Nancy Pelosi has to deal with. Deal with. That's what an abundance of Democrats have to deal with. Obama's out of office. He still has to deal with that. Everybody has their thoughts and opinions, and I get that. But to call for a rally for me to be canceled, that's shameful. It's immature, bad news. Not only do I have the platform that I have, I have more coming.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

This is kind of the thing with this as the way that it works. So these things are twofold. Number one is Stephen A. Smith asking Jasmine Crockett to be polite to President Trump. Is that what your understanding of this is?

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I don't know if it's polite, but sure. Similar sentiment.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Okay, so. Okay, so a couple.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

He's asking her to tone it down. Well, which might be worse?

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Well, this is. To me, this is the height of the. When I think about the plight of the black American experience, I think about what Stephen A. Is describing. I mean, just to be honest with you, I think about walking down the street and someone saying, hey, nigger. And then you having to go, how you doing, mister? That, to me, that little interaction right there is. Whenever I would see that, right? Whenever I would see that happen, I would always think about the humiliation of that. And the humiliation didn't come from weakness. It came from understanding, hey, if I look back at this person and I tell them to get the fuck off my shit, then I could be killed. If I'm walking to work, if I'm walking home, if I'm walking to go play with my sons, me looking at this person and telling them exactly how I feel about the way they are talking to me could be my final decision. So the bigger decision there is to endure that so that I can then continue to live, continue to work, and continue to play with my kids. If there is anything that the people that went through that fought for it was so that we didn't have to do that. If there was anything at all that those people fought for was so that we could have some understanding of our dignity legitimately, it comes down for it's fuck me. No, sir. I actually think it's fuck you, and let me show you. And to demand that Jasmine Crockett act in a way that is palatable, dare I say socially responsible, with a president that has made his brand insulting and debasing people legitimately, how many examples do you need? Like Derogatory racist nicknames. The president put a sombrero. Well, he didn't put the sombrero. He tweeted a meme of a sombrero on top of Hakeem Jeffries head. I am no gigantic Hakeem Jeffries fan, but that's fucking racist. That is racist. The entire movement on the right, led by Trump, the MAGA movement, is based in humiliating not just their political opponents, but anyone that they don't feel like is in lockstep with exactly what it is that they want. And there have to be people, be them on the left, right or center, that go, no, actually, if it's fuck you. If it's fuck me, then it's fuck you. And I don't even understand how to contend with what's being said here, because what's being said here is such a breathtaking double standard that you don't. It's not even about. There's just straight up weakness in the actual words. It's really about the motivation. Who has ever, ever, ever got what they wanted from being polite to Donald Trump? I'm talking about somebody that doesn't exist.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

Within his own party. Within his own party.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

The only thing that you can do to a bully, and I'm sure that Stephen A. Has encountered all types of bullies throughout his time. The only thing that you can do to a bully is to punch back.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

But see, this is what I'm saying. This is why I said I'm at the point, and I started this off of not even wanting to discuss any more Stephen A. Smith viral moments. Because to your point, when you're like, I'm trying to understand this, like, the obvious double standard in it all, it's hard for me to believe that he doesn't. What I'm noticing, especially since he's had his political show, is that he makes some outrageous comment. It sparks all of this. This huge reaction, right? And everybody's talking about it. And then he comes back and he reacts to the reaction and backtracks just a little bit, right? This isn't as much of a backtrack as what he said before. And now I can't even remember what. When you called him out, I can't even remember what that one was. So many things. But he goes back of, these are all the things I think of Jasmine Crockett and how wonderful she is. He didn't say that the first time. And I'm feeling like this is the cycle with him. He's got a new show, he's gotta say something. That's provocative. And I am not excusing it. I'm just saying, well, I don't even want to address it anymore because I feel like this is the game. He is going to say something, we are going to have strong reactions, and then he is going to respond to those strong reactions. And this is great for his show. And if anything, if. If I don't understand exactly what it is that Stephen A. Smith is doing where he's. Well, I don't think I'm confused on where he's aligning politically, but just like the motivation of it all, if I'm not understanding it, one thing I do understand is that this is a man who wants ratings. This is a man who wants the attention. This is a man who has a show to sell, and I'm not gonna help him do that. So I'm almost getting to the point where I don't even wanna respond because I feel like this is just a part of the game. I don't even know if he really believes it more than he believes in the popularity of his show. And I'm not saying I'm not trying to give him anything. I think I'm just tired of it. And that's the only thing that makes sense to me.

[Isaac Bryan]

Hmm.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

Let me tell you why I disagree. And I understand what you're saying. You're probably right. But let me tell you why I disagree. We simply are not in this moment.

[Isaac Bryan]

You're right.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

We're not in the moment of. Let me manipulate the algorithm and people's emotions to self promote the thing that I'm doing. You guys, we're all self promoters. You think that I haven't said, oh, look, I look particularly handsome in this. Let me post this. You know, part of the reason why I posted the video of me moving so slow, it's because I was moving. I thought my shoulders looked good. Give him some shoulder. You know what I'm saying? You never know. Give them a little shoulders sometimes. Rachel, that's my thing. Shoulders. That's my thing. My shoulders. Okay, that's my shoulders. Oh, other shoulders are nice.

[Isaac Bryan]

But.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

The times that we live in right now call for an honest evaluation of the political reality and the cultural reality in America. You guys, we're about to lose the whole thing. We're about to lose the entire thing. And the thing that we had wasn't even all that great. The Supreme Court decision could nuke nearly 20 seats. That along with Republican redistricting, Just the other straight up political redistricting that, that Trump is doing. Means that you could see a permanent change in what happens in the House of Representatives. Along with people in masks on the street robbing people of their due process, taking them out. Along with basically government hits in Caribbean waters, along with the attack on snap on healthcare. Along with. Along with. Along with. Along with. We don't have time for the games.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I get it.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

We don't have time for people to just simply be in it. To raise their own voice with absolutely zero principle and zero thought about the entire ecosystem of the American political reality. Particularly for women that look just like Jasmine Crockett. But we don't have time for it. And we gotta discuss it. Because if it is that cynical, if it is that cynical that he is doing this to boost a show, it's actually worse than if he actually believed it.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

You're right. But to me, to the point, you're right, we shouldn't stop talking about it. This is my frustration coming out. But further on in that clip, it points to why I say the motivation behind it is capitalism. Because what he goes on to say is, not only does he go on to then invite Jasmine to come on the show again, ratings. He then, oh, you think you're gonna cancel me? I have more stuff in the works. I have a bigger platform. I'm going to have a bigger desk where I'm going to be inviting more people. See, that is the goal and the aim in all of this. And you're right. You're not. You don't. You're motivated by things that actually are about helping and impacting people. His motivation, to me, how I'm observing it, is getting a bigger desk and getting more platforms. And I'm. And I'm probably wrong because there are people who are taking it seriously. And it's impacting the way people think. And it's hurting the argument for people that look like him. You're right. This is just my frustration.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I'll end it by saying this. I've met Jasmine Crockett one time. If Jasmine Crockett came on Higher Learning, we'd ask Jasmine Crockett some questions that Jasmine Crockett would not like. Okay, I know. They're the same questions that we asked Gavin Newsom that kind of got him ensnared. Like, we'd ask him, ask some questions. He's like, overall, my opinion of Jasmine Crockett is very high. We have some disagreements, as disagreements that I would have. We're going to talk about the article in the Nation or the Peace in the Nation was just written about the cbc. We'll do that on Monday. So I'm not deifying like I did Sandy Darity, any one political figure. I'm saying this, okay? If I had one, one request of Jasmine Crockett, it would be, please do not go on Stephen A. Smith's show. It's very important not to reward something like this. This has nothing to do with whether or not I think that they would have a productive conversation. This has nothing to do with my belief that you should platform and have conversations with people on the other side of issues than you. That has nothing to do with any of. That has nothing to do with my belief. A belief that I fought with the audience of this podcast about. About whether or not you should have people on that you disagree with. I actually love to do it. I enjoy doing it. And I think you should do more of it. But we cannot get in a circle where. Or a cycle should I say where. Jasmine Crockett, who was politically catcalled by Stephen A. Smith, where she then goes on there and benefits that platform by making the moment that. That actually, I'll say it again, by making the moment that he wants from that.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I agree with you. She shouldn't do it.

[Van Leighton Jr.]

I do not think that she should go on his podcast. I do not think that we should reward people who are triggering us and calling us out in this ridiculous and transparent way by going on and then benefiting their platforms. I just don't think that she should. Okay, look, we'll get back to the issues next week. A lot of issues. Lot of stuff to talk about. We'll get back to the issues next week. Take thin caps off. Do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathon Jr.

[Rachel and Lindsey]

I'm Rachel and Lindsey. Bye, guys. Mutine. Adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained. One who navigates the life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New Teen, the new fragrance by Miu Miu, defined by you.