Capitalism, Beef and Jay-Z, Usher Praises Diddy, Plus a ’Beauty in Black’ Conversation

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Capitalism, Beef and Jay-Z, Usher Praises Diddy, Plus a ’Beauty in Black’ Conversation
Date: March 27, 2026
Podcast Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay dive deep into the current intersections of Black culture, media, celebrity, and social justice. This episode features discussions on the representation and future of Black romantic comedies, the recent legal case against social media giants, NBA and MLB sports media economies, recent musical and cultural controversies, Jay-Z’s views on capitalism and rap beef, Usher’s public support of Diddy amidst scandal, and an engaging interview with the stars of Netflix’s “Beauty in Black”—Crystal Stewart and Taylor Polidor Williams.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Importance of Supporting Black Rom-Coms

• New Halle Bailey Movie "You, Me & Tuscany"
  • Van champions support for the new film starring Halle Bailey and Regé-Jean Page, emphasizing the wider impact on the Black rom-com genre’s future ([00:14 – 02:47]).
  • Van: “Black rom coms are insanely important. Because the rom com as a film is a celebration of the love and fun that two people can have...Black people being out there just loving, laughing, having ups, downs...that's important for us to support and celebrate.” ([01:13])
• Discussion about the underrepresentation of Black love and joy in mainstream media.
• Rachel recalls the abundance of Black rom-coms in the 90s and the genre’s importance to her upbringing ([02:47]).

2. Beauty in Black – Representation & Criticism

• Interview Preview: Crystal Stewart and Taylor Polidor Williams discuss their roles and the massive popularity of “Beauty in Black” ([06:53 – 08:32] & later [117:43 – 143:59]).
• Criticism & Queer Representation: Rachel brings up controversy around a cast member’s homophobic remarks but explains her decision to keep the interview celebratory, acknowledging ongoing conversations about inclusivity.

3. Social Media Lawsuit – Meta & YouTube Liability

• Landmark Case: Jury finds Meta and YouTube liable for social media addiction and awards damages ([10:02 – 22:29]).
• Rachel details how this case skirts the federal law protecting tech platforms by focusing on the built-in addictive features rather than user content.
• Van compares social media’s impact to tobacco and alcohol—regulation will require direct, scientifically proven harms.
  • Van: “There is going to have to be a robust effort to tie social media usage...directly to one or two harms. You’re going to have to be able to say it somehow decreases cognitive function.” ([15:41])

4. NBA Salary Cap, Sports Media, and Baseball’s Rise

• Van contrasts the NBA’s declining media revenue and convoluted viewing options with MLB’s recent growth ([22:38 – 27:13]).
• Both discuss how the NBA’s disjointed regional media coverage impacts fan engagement and revenue.

5. Music, Art, and Controversy: LaRussell, Rap Beefs, and Jay-Z

• LaRussell’s Backlash: The hosts dissect LaRussell’s dismissive reaction to public outrage following his controversial statements comparing different infamies.
  • Rachel criticizes his response: “Sometimes you just have to take the L. Sometimes you have to just say, I understand why people are upset.” ([53:41])
  • Van elaborates on the importance of accountability in art and the potential for growth through understanding, not defensiveness.
• Rap Beef Culture: Jay-Z’s recent reflections on the state of rap beef in the social media era—personal and corporate involvement have escalated the stakes and consequences ([86:00]).

6. Jay-Z on Capitalism & Black Success

• Discussion of Jay-Z’s GQ interview marking 30 years of "Reasonable Doubt" ([66:36 – 85:41]):
  • Jay-Z frames his success as the product of playing by capitalism’s rules, not exploiting others.
    • Jay-Z: “I'm a realist, not an idealist...I make art first, and then I make sure that I'm compensated for my art...I didn't take advantage of people.” ([67:19])
  • Van analyzes the problem with personalizing critiques of capitalism: “We're saying the thing is inefficient...It manufactures [winners and losers]. The thing that we were told was the saving grace…is an illusion.” ([74:16])
  • Rachel points out that Jay-Z’s stance is more about personal mentorship and self-determination, not a defense of systemic injustice.

7. Usher Praises Diddy – Navigating Allegiance and Accountability

• Usher’s Comments: Usher publicly defends Diddy, focusing on his positive personal mentorship and contributions to culture, downplaying recent abuse allegations ([92:32 – 97:31]).
  • Usher: “I don't have anything negative to say...My experience was not what the world has seen and how he's been misrepresented...But I can't, with any sense of humanity, not recognize the valuable contributions that this man made for us as black entrepreneurs…” ([92:47])
• Rachel is disappointed by Usher’s refusal to acknowledge Diddy’s victims and the pattern of celebrity solidarity.
  • Rachel: “I will never understand how you can totally dismiss the other side of it...They did so much good for you that it waters down or makes the other side disappear.” ([95:14])
• Van explains the mechanics of celebrity loyalty and the need for the public—not just celebrities—to hold influential people accountable.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Van on Black Rom-Coms:
  “The rom com as a film is a celebration of...the most humanist of movies. So black people being out there just loving, laughing...that’s important for us to support and celebrate.” ([01:13])

• Rachel on Social Media Lawsuit:
  “This could set a precedent for cases to come because this definitely won't be the last time...they awarded $3 million in damages, with Meta responsible for about 70% and YouTube responsible for 30.” ([10:33])

• Van on Celebrity Culture:
  “Celebrity is a group of people who say we have a different set of standards, not just for our lives, but overall...if something happens, we're kind of prone to close ranks.” ([97:43])

• Rachel on Usher Defending Diddy:
  “You could equally say, I know him differently. He means a lot to me...But the fact that you can't call it out, I'm looking at you as less of a man.” ([108:12])

• Van on Capitalism:
  “You can buy your humanity...That is the central operating thesis of capitalism. You buy your way to being human...And when we're trying to have a conversation about what we're doing, we're not having a conversation about whether or not somebody should make a lot of money. We're talking about whether or not there should be extreme wealth inequality.” ([71:03] / [75:47])

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:14 – 05:54: Black romantic comedies, representation in cinema, and “You, Me & Tuscany.”
• 06:53 – 08:39: “Beauty in Black” interview preview, LGBTQ+ controversy.
• 10:02 – 22:29: Social media lawsuit, corporate responsibility, and tech addiction.
• 22:38 – 27:13: NBA salary cap, sports revenue, baseball’s rise.
• 52:40 – 66:10: LaRussell controversy, public accountability and musical art.
• 66:36 – 85:41: Jay-Z’s GQ interview, capitalism, Black achievement, and social critique.
• 86:00 – 92:07: Jay-Z on hip-hop beef and the evolution of rap battles.
• 92:32 – 97:31: Usher’s Forbes interview and defense of Diddy.
• 97:41 – 110:09: Celebrity solidarity, holding power accountable, reflection on “American Gods.”
• 117:43 – 143:59: Interview with Crystal Stewart & Taylor Polidor Williams (“Beauty in Black”)—on fame, major scenes, criticisms, and being Black women leads on a hit show.

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"Beauty in Black" Interview Highlights

• Why is the show so popular?
  • Taylor: “People are connecting ... because of the Tyler Perry effect. But we've even broken past that; the themes ... are just so entertaining, and it grabs people.” ([119:38])
• Handling Criticism:
  • Taylor: “I personally don't engage with [online criticism]. I appreciate the people watching ... but once that is out in the world, that is for them.” ([123:23])
  • Crystal: “If you read the good, you have to read the bad ... so I just stay away from it and stay on my high of being number one.” ([124:18])
  • Both acknowledge some criticism is “rooted in racism and self-perception of Black representation on screen.” ([126:53])
• Representation and Success:
  • Crystal: “It's been life-changing ... going places, I feel like I live two different lives. In LA, it's events and red carpets ... at home, I'm mom with my two little kids.” ([130:09])
  • Both reflect on the challenge and reward of portraying complex, sometimes controversial characters.

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Conclusion

This episode of “Higher Learning” debates complex questions of representation, accountability, and community in Black culture and pop culture at large, challenging listeners to consider the narratives that shape visibility, power, and responsibility from Hollywood to hip hop. Through thoughtful critique and personal anecdotes, Van and Rachel explore the evolving intersections of art, celebrity, economics, and justice.

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Takeaway:
Whether analyzing Jay-Z’s worldview or dissecting the complexities of “Beauty in Black,” Van and Rachel underscore the need for both celebration and critical examination within Black culture, advocating for progress, accountability, and nuanced conversation.

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For more from Van and Rachel, subscribe to "Higher Learning" on your favorite podcast platform!

Transcript

[Rachel Lindsay]

Foreign.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on. It is I, Van Lathan Jr and

[Rachel Lindsay]

it is me, Rachel and Lindsey.

[Van Lathan Jr]

So there's a movie that's coming out and you have. And everybody has to go see it. Okay. All right. Is everyone listening?

[Rachel Lindsay]

You have our full attention.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Is there's a movie coming out and everybody has to go see the movie. I'll tell you what the movie is. It is with Halle Bailey.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, the Tuscany movie.

[Van Lathan Jr]

You have to go see the Tuscany movie.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did you see it?

[Van Lathan Jr]

No, I haven't seen it yet. But I haven't seen it yet. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how good the movie is. I'm asking everyone to go see the movie and I'll tell you why. I've seen, first of all, the great Will packers behind this movie. And you guys know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Van Lathan Jr]

That whatever Will does forever, I will do it. I'll tell the Will Packer story again. I am fired from TMZ in 20. Will Packer makes it a point to put me back on television. Every time I think about it, I get a little emotional. Just because he believed in what I was doing and thought what happened was bullshit. And that is, to me, the way we should be looking out for each other when we can. So shout out to Will Packer for that. But more than that, I saw a tweet by a sister named Nina Lee, okay? Now she has done a rom com and that rom com has, I think, Country Wayne and Coco Jones in it, okay? And what she has said was that there are a lot of studios that are watching for this movie. You, me and Tuscany is the name of the movie. Reggae Jean Page is in this as well. Okay? So it's Haley, Halle Bailey and Reggae Jean Page. A lot of studios are watching this movie to see. To see how it does, to gauge the near future of the black rom com. I'm gonna be real quick on this. Black rom coms insanely important. Insanely important. Because the rom com as a film is a celebration of the love and fun that two people can have. A rom com is, in a way, the most humanist of movies. So black people being out there just loving, laughing, having ups, downs, nobody's chasing anyone with a whip. We not trying to get out of the hood. It's not love in the crack era. It's not love on the plantation. It's just love that's important for us to support and celebrate.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I can't remember if we talked about this here but we used to have that in the 90s. There are so many funny, beautiful 90s black rom coms. And then it just disappeared. And so. Yeah, I mean, that's a really good point. We should. I know. I feel like we talked about this podcast about the disappearance of them, but if. Which. It's crazy that they're looking at this one movie for this, but if this is what it's gonna take to bring that back, which is something that we grew up on, which I feel like was a part of my upbringing, my childhood, then. Yeah, like, let's get it.

[Usher]

Let's.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I don't know if they're looking at one movie for the whole, but all I'm saying is, is that when creatives say stuff like that, it's actually true.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Now, I hit Nina up to see what I. And I actually hit Will up just to make sure that I was talking about this. But look, you guys, for example, the drama is coming out next week. I couldn't be more excited for the drama.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's Zendaya.

[Van Lathan Jr]

That's Zendaya and Robert Pattinson.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't. What's that about?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Nobody knows.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay? So I'm not in the dark. It's not just me. Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Some people are trying to spoil it, but no one really knows.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I got excited about this movie. Then I thought, this could be a part of the biracial jihad.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You know, people want you to let this go.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I don't care what they want.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I do. I didn't ask them we should take a higher learning vote.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Mm.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He said, you see how I said, I do. And he goes, I didn't ask them. See, he don't want to pay attention to what I said because he wants to keep going. We're gonna say, well, first we're gonna bring Tracy on, and then we'll retire it. We're gonna hear from an actual biracial person on how we should handle this, and then we're gonna move on.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Hold on for a second. Wait a second. Reggae Jean Page. Hold on for a second. Oh. Oh, my God. I think Reggae Jean Page. I think he might be a part of the biracial jihad.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He is.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Aw, shit, bruh. See what I'm saying? Y'. All don't. But I'm making it up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Wait, is he not. I'm saying, what are you making up? Oh. So are we for it or are we against it? Van.

[Van Lathan Jr]

No.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are we for it or against it?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Well, I mean, we have to go support the movie. We have to go support the movie. But we do eventually have to make love between niggas. That's the movie that I wanna see. Two dark skinned people.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But we have to support it because

[Van Lathan Jr]

it's like, no, I'm being. Nah, I apologize, guys. That's not how I wanna be. I'm changing. No, don't. None of that's true.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah, he definitely is in it.

[Van Lathan Jr]

But we're going to see this movie as a family. Everybody. We're going to see this movie.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Still black love.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Tuscany. It's black love. It's black love.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't like that smile.

[Van Lathan Jr]

That's what I love about it. That's one of my favorite things about this movie.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, do it again. Zoom in on it. I don't trust it. If Van ever calls you, that's what pops up.

[Van Lathan Jr]

What?

[Rachel Lindsay]

And it creeps me out every single, every single time.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I believe in this movie. And I'm gonna go see it. I'm gonna go see it. It's gonna be great. I'm gonna buy popcorn.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Date night, huh? Date night.

[Crystal Stewart]

Date night.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Get out there. Do it.

[Donnie]

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[Van Lathan Jr]

We have beauty and black on the show today.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Very excited about it. I'm glad that I could bring you in to the beauty and black world. It's just wild. It's wild. I've never seen anything like it. I've never seen Tyler Perry do anything like it. It's number one for a reason and we get into it with both the stars, Crystal Stewart and Taylor Polidor Williams, also known as Kimmy and Mallory.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Kimmy and Mallory. We talked a little bit about some of the criticism of the show. Criticisms with Tyler Perry as well. You guys hang out for that. They were very good with their time. We talked about Houston, 2 of Texas. We're from Houston. And I didn't get a chance to drive the wedge between AKA and Delta, but I'll get to that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We kept it light. Cause I was actually gonna bring something else up that I didn't really want to talk about. One of the stars in the movie, like, has this really controversial Instagram Live where he basically condemns the LGBTQ community. And he plays someone he condemned him

[Van Lathan Jr]

on a Tyler Perry show.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He condemned them on his Live. And he. On his show. He very much on the show. He very much so. He is not. But he plays. He has to. He has to play into it. I don't want to give anything away, but, like, he has to be a part. So it's. And you have queer co workers. There are other people on the show that are queer. So for him to make this statement was really controversial. Now he's since come out and he's apologized for it and said that he's learning. But it's a pretty recent statement. But I wanted to keep it light and not go there and have them, you know, we're celebrating the fact it's number one. It's a big. It's a huge thing for them. I didn't wanna bring all of that into it, but it is a thing that people are talking about that are in the fandom.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I get that. Everybody has to learn on their own time. Let me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's not an old statement, by the way.

[Van Lathan Jr]

It's an old statement.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It is not.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Okay. I want everybody to learn. I'm not holding myself out to be better than this brother at all. Because everybody has to learn in their own time. And here's what they have to learn. Gay and trans and non binary people are people just like you that get all of the same rights, opportunities and experiences that you do. That's the whole lesson.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Class dismissed.

[Van Lathan Jr]

See, it's very easy to learn. You go to a restaurant, gay people go to a restaurant. You get married, gay people get married. You have a cartoon, gay people have a cartoon. You have a show, gay people have a show. You dance, gay people dance like it's the same thing. And you know what else is funny about gay people? They're black.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I wish. I wish.

[Van Lathan Jr]

They're black and they're gay, and they're just as black and they're black and they're a part of us, and we are them and they are us. Yeah, they're human and they deserve.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They're human.

[Van Lathan Jr]

It's just like they're actually black and Sometimes biracial, which.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, somebody clip that and send that to Xavier.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Okay, quick hitters, Donnie.

[Donnie]

All right, let's start on the legal front. A la jury found Meta and YouTube liable in a landmark case over social media addiction. The lawsuit was brought on by a 20 year old woman who said that she became addicted to the platforms as a child. They awarded $3 million in damages, with Meta responsible for about 70% and YouTube responsible for 30. Jurors also found the companies acted with malice, meaning additional punitive damages could follow. What do you guys think this means for the future of social media platforms?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think it's huge and I'm not against it. Oh, Van, grow up, grow up. I think it's. I think you haven't seen anything like this. Cause it's not that it's the first time that someone has tried to sue these social media companies. It's the way in which these lawyers decided to Sue Meta and YouTube, which is why it's like, oh, this could set a precedent for cases to come because this definitely won't be the last time. So basically these social media companies have been able to get away with continuing what they're doing and not be subjected to these lawsuits under a federal act, which basically says that you can't sue tech companies and they're not responsible. Well, tech companies are not responsible for what their users post. And these lawyers said, all right, well, what we're gonna do is basically go around that and say it's the product and that's the problem. It's not what people are posting because obviously these tech companies aren't in control of that. It's how the tech company platforms, their social media company or their outlet. So like the infinite scroll, the constant notifications, beauty filters, all of this. And so what this plaintiff is saying is that she basically suffered personal injury because she'd been using social media since she was 6 and it added to her body dysmorphia and all these other things. And so she said she has been harmed by them. She said these companies were negligent. Jury said, you know what, you're right.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Couple things here. I think the first thing I think is I watched an interview with Peter Thiel. It's very interesting.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You love to watch a Peter Thiel interview, don't you?

[Van Lathan Jr]

I like to watch all different types of interviews. I watched Coleman Hughes and Glenn Grinwald earlier today. I watched Coleman Hughes, Dave Smith. I actually learned a lot from Coleman Hughes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, you like, you want to have Coleman on here?

[Van Lathan Jr]

I would like to. I don't think Coleman would do it because, like, Coleman is a very different type of. He maintains his emotional pitch very well.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, you don't think you could do that?

[Van Lathan Jr]

No. I have to sing a special song to maintain my emotional pitch.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Have we heard it?

[Van Lathan Jr]

No. No. I never told you about this. I never told you about the Mickey Mouse Santa Claus MLK song.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think I remember that.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Oh, no. One day when I get really mad, I sing a song. Mickey Mouse.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, I literally. If you've never said this to me, these are people.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I. You know, imagine these are people. Calm me down.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Peter Till, interview.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Peter Till. Interview. Peter Till says the crowd asks him, or he gets asked by the interviewer how much social media, how much screen time he lets his kids have per week. What do you think his answer was?

[Rachel Lindsay]

None.

[Van Lathan Jr]

1 hour and 30 minutes from Peter Till.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Now, Peter Till invested something like $200 million, maybe more, into Facebook. He has been a part of the tech oligarch revolution, the power grab from these types of guys. He essentially is an algorithm himself. When you watch him, it's like. But he realizes that too much of this stuff is harmful. Now, I'm the wrong spokesman for this. People know I am chronically online, except for our Reddit where they posted my mom, bunch of lowlifes. But, like, I am chronically online, right? But the interesting thing about this conversation I had on a podcast called the Escape Hatch Podcast is I'm interested to see where this can go in terms of tying direct harm to social media usage.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What do you mean?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Okay, think about other industries that we've highly regulated. What you were able to do in these industries is tied direct harm to the usage of said product. If you think about tobacco, that's what

[Rachel Lindsay]

they're comparing this case to, right?

[Van Lathan Jr]

At one point, you smoking cigarettes everywhere and stuff like that. How did we really win the war against cigarette smoke? And I haven't. People smoke on a plane. Stuff like that. We not only regulated cigarettes, smoke, and cigarettes in terms of usage, we. We also sort of culturally regulated them. Hey, you're not gonna have billboards with people smoking. You've come a long way, baby. Virginia Slim. You're not gonna have commercials with it. You're not gonna have any of that stuff. Smoking in movies sort of went away. And when that happened, there was sort of a cultural regulation of that, because you could tie tobacco directly to this outcome, which is either cancer, emphysema, heart disease, all of that. If you're talking about alcohol, alcohol you can directly tie to being impaired and then driving so the alcohol company has to, in some way. Now, we haven't really put the genie back in the bottle with that, but the alcohol company in some way has to say, hey, drink responsibly. They have to have. They have to limit their liability in getting you to do this thing that is bad for you and dangerous. And so we're able to put an age limit on it. We're able to say in some places, you can't drink on this day, you can't drink here. You can't walk around drunk. There is going to have to be a robust effort to tie social media usage not to a litany of possible harms, but directly to one or two harms. You're going to have to be able to say that it somehow decreases your cognitive function or it's somehow. I'm not saying that people can't do this. I'm saying this is the project. Like, it somehow decreases your cognitive function. It somehow makes. Gives you body dysmorphia. It leads to depression, it leads to. There's going to have to be something at the end of this that is very actionable to get the type of reform that people are gonna want. And then we're gonna have to also ask, last thing I'll say is, what do people want? If we are to regulate social media, are we regulate social media? Are we regulating the algorithms? Are we regulating what age you should be able to go on there? These are the conversations that are gonna happen.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what I think that this case is happening. Connected, right? Like to prove negligence, you have to show there was a breach and then that breach caused harm. So there was. There was an injury, which is what she presented. And they said, you are in fact correct. Now, of course they're going to appeal this, but I think that. That some of those questions I think were at least answered in this case. Now, how meta? And because they awarded her like 3 million, a couple of the jurors spoke out and said they didn't want to do this large sum because for them, it's not just about this getting money. It's about an impact, like making change. And so what I do think you'll see, of course, meta, meta. And YouTube will probably appeal this. So that's a long ways away. They're fighting it. They maintain that they are not creating an addictive product. But, you know, the plaintiffs had evidence that showed paper, like conversations between, I don't know if it was meta, YouTube or both that show that they were very aware of this addiction that can happen. Because of the way that they present this. And I mean, you even just talked about Peter Till. I mean, that's not direct, but, like, that's evidence that he believes that it's harmful. So I think that you'll see maybe a warning. Like a. Like, you know, cigarettes have a warning label. There could be a warning. It could be what maybe some other countries have done. After a certain age, you can't get on social media. It might be that the algorithm isn't so addictive. It might be that they don't have constant replays. I mean, there are. I think there are small changes they could make that don't make it so bad, because think about when Instagram started versus now. I was not using it to the level that I was when it first started. I don't think it was as addictive as it is now.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I didn't have the algorithm yet.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Exactly. So I think that if they can take away some of these things or maybe like constant notifications or whatever it may be, take it back, dial it back a bit, that might be the answer.

[Van Lathan Jr]

So I think in this case, they were able to prove that in this instance. In this instance, that it affected this person like that. Right, right. A couple of things happened. You know, if you compare it to cigarettes, drunk driving and all that stuff, like you can compare it to, or alcohol usage and all of that. There were direct diseases that they could then say, hey, you drink enough, your liver turns to stone, you smoke enough, your heart goes kaput, and your lungs fail. Like there was. Because these things are physical. There was an easy scientific explanation in the harm of the product. In this case, they were able to do it for this one person. The problem is there are scores of people that are gonna be like, I use this stuff all the time and I'm fine. What they're gonna have to do. Cause there are a lot of people that smoke. They're fine. What they're gonna have to do is prove that, on average, you are less healthy if you use social media in some kind of way. On average, in terms of the general population.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What do you mean? They have to prove that. For what?

[Van Lathan Jr]

In order to actually regulate it. They're gonna have to prove that it's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, it's gonna be their choice. Otherwise they can keep getting sued and having to pay out. They don't have to prove what you're specifically saying. Like, they could. This is precedent.

[Van Lathan Jr]

No, I'm not talking about, like, they can. They can if they want to.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, they can keep it as is.

[Van Lathan Jr]

$3 million is a drop in the bucket to Facebook.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Correct?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Like, that's the cost of doing business. So, like. But like, what I'm saying, like, what I'm saying is if we want societal regulation, which is what I want, if we want societal regulation on social media, which I think it should be regulated at this point, if we want that, then the investigation into it is gonna have to be able to demonstrate how exactly social media is hurting and harming us.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who would do societal regulation? Like, who are you?

[Van Lathan Jr]

The government?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, yeah, I don't think that will happen.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Why?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, it won't happen under this administration.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Well, not under this administration, but yeah, like governmental regulation, like it's government, they regulate all different other type of media.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Ye, you can't be.

[Van Lathan Jr]

We got Beauty and Black coming on later. If Beauty and Black was in the movie theater, you wouldn't be able to be seven years old and go in there and buy a ticket to be like, I wanna see Beauty and Black. I wanna see some asses shaking vagina.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not saying it can't have. They can't do it. I'm saying, well, one, we both agree it wouldn't happen under this administration. I'm more so looking at it from a. Well, the legal pressure of this case. Because now you have a roadmap. You have a blueprint of. All right, well, now I know I could sue and possibly do exactly what they did and then get money. And that jury may award a hundred more times what this jury awarded. You know, like, they don't have to stick to this exact thing. But the point is, is that something happened that's never been. Has happened before. And will this legal pressure. Because you're right, $3 million is nothing to them. Even this attorney and his closing argument had like a jar of M and Ms. And showed like, this is a dry. Like was demonstrating how much money it would take to actually impact these companies. But if it keeps happening, will Facebook, Facebook, Meta or YouTube say, you know what, we're gonna do this? And then that might be the regulation that happens. Everything's based on money, right? For them. So I don't know. But I just. This was really interesting to me because it hasn't been done before. And I think you're about to see a bunch of people. I mean, there's another case going on right now in New Mexico with this was like, where $375 million meta was hit with for a different reason, but still because they said that Meta fails to protect young users from child predators. They just were hit with 375 million. So I just wonder if these legal cases may cause them to tighten it up.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I'm skeptical. I think the only way you're gonna be able to. The only way you're gonna be able to get them to change it is through actual government regulations.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Probably, right?

[Van Lathan Jr]

I mean, like, well, but maybe. Who knows? Who knows? Look, do you care about the NBA salary cap?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, you do, of course, go for it.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I don't think the audience cares.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why was it interesting to you? Because I looked into this. I was like, okay, Van wants to talk about it. Let me not be a curmudgeon.

[Van Lathan Jr]

He wants to talk. It's not actually. It's a million dollars lower than earlier projections. This is decline in local media revenue. And when you have things like fraudulent 83 point games, people decide that they don't want it anymore.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Do you think that that's what you think people aren't watching? Or is it because like that the company who I guess was over local stations went bankrupt. So now people don't have a local place to really watch it. So that's why viewers.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I think that this is a direct response to the 83 point game from Bam Adebayo that people turn their. They turned their televisions off after that happened. It turned them off. They were like, we don't want to. This product is trash. And so it hurt the league financially. Until Kobe is respected, that will continue to happen.

[Rachel Lindsay]

If I could do a community note, it would say that is, in fact absolutely not true.

[Van Lathan Jr]

You can't prove that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's not why viewership dropped. They don't have like a local.

[Van Lathan Jr]

No, there's local media revenue. Like Rachel is right. The more interesting conversation here is will there be a changing in the guard in America's second sport? Baseball is on a heater. Major League Baseball has actually been able to do something that's different for the NBA. The NBA is like a nationwide sport with all of these nationwide brands. We talked about this a little bit. But Major League Baseball has been able to transform itself into a regional powerhouse and is now getting to a point where obviously the salaries in their league are going to have to get checked and stuff like that. But they are really growing in a real way and people believe in the competition. Besides the fact that the Dodgers have this unlimited amount of money to spend and can go buy up all of these players, the competition in Major League Baseball is looked at as a product that's getting better. They have introduced a pitch clock to baseball. Thank God it's moving the games faster. Some of the competitive things in baseball have worked to change the product in a way that is more palatable to the fan. Makes it better for the fan to watch. It's better. The NBA is moving. I don't care what anyone fucking says.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I agree with you.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I see the opposite direction.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I will agree with you.

[Van Lathan Jr]

The NBA. The rules that exist in the NBA right now, some of the things that you're allowed to do are eroding people's like, love for the actual game itself. If you love basketball. And I think you're starting to kind of see that along with the media stuff and the local media rights that you're talking about. Also with the fact that watching these games means I go to. I go to League Pass and it says click on this to go to Peacock. I go to Peacock and Peacock, like, psych, nigga. Go to Amazon. I go to Amazon and Amazon is like, we don't have a game today, Van. You gotta go to Spectrum TV sportsnetballysports.com and I'm like, I'm not doing all that to watch the fucking Clippers. I just wanted to see what Kawhi looked like for three minutes in the second quarter. Yeah, so there's a lot happening at the same time with basketball. And that's not to take anything away from some of these studio shows because I think what Amazon's doing and for basketball is fantastic.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, everybody loves basketball.

[Van Lathan Jr]

There's a lot of different places to watch basketball.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But no, no, no, no. I will agree with that. Like you don't know. And I would say if football had more games, it would be the same thing. Cause it's on spread out so much. But it doesn't. But you're absolutely right. I think that it feels disconnected. You don't get to just like turn on your TV and oh, there's the game. Or maybe certain institutions that you were tapped into have disappeared. Those shows aren't there anymore. So yeah, by the way, feels disjointed.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Just so people know they still made more. The cap is still going up. It's just not going up as much as they expected it to. So the players are still making more money. The cap is still going up. I don't want any niggas to see.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So that's why this is a crazy story.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Broke ass basketball players. The cap is still going up. It's just. It was a million dollars off. And the NBA is not used to taking even small little. It always goes like microscopic. Ls like that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But now I Know what your motivation was? It was to get the cause. I was looking at this, and I'm like, okay, they're at 155. They had projected, what, like, I don't know, 166, and now it's 165. They're still going up. I was like, what is this really about?

[Van Lathan Jr]

As soon as they lost money, it's

[Rachel Lindsay]

what you wanted to. It's the point you want to make.

[Van Lathan Jr]

As soon as that happened, they lost money. I need somebody random to go break that record, man. What? My young buck at that time.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But see, no, that would not change your mind if a random person did it.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Not a random.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It would be how the person does it. Because that's your issue with Bam. It's not who did it. It's how he did it.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I fuck with Bam, man. Bam is one of the top. He's got one of the top Bam in Asia. I love that. You know, shout out to Bam. But I need one of my young bucks to get it. Tyrese. Congratulations, Trey Murphy. Go get the record, man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But it's really sad that you just can't take this win and just enjoy it and bask in it. I mean, you worked hard to get here. You've been in the league for a long time, and you got this. Yeah. And you got this 83 point game, and then you got people like this that want to rain on your parade. You want a random person, you just said to beat that record.

[Van Lathan Jr]

What is a DHO in basketball? No.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, we don't. That is literally. No, let's go back.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

You know what?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let's go back to the previous topic, and let me start throwing out some legal terms for you.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I don't know any of them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I don't know any. I don't know any of Torturous. What is it? Tort. I know tort.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's tort. Not torturous.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Torturous. What's the difference between torturous and torture? Don't they say torturous? Why are you looking at me like that? I don't like feeling stupid. I don't like being tossed down upon like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like the case we just talked about. That's tort law.

[Van Lathan Jr]

So that's tort.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. Like, it's a personal negligence. It's like a personal injury case.

[Van Lathan Jr]

That's torture. What about what's torturous, then? Tort and torture is not the same thing. What's torturous? Interference. Y' all never heard that? I heard that on one of these Shows man. Torturous interference.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Wait, wait, they don't have that. Wait, wait, wait.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Jake, stop eating random slices of beef. Jade came into. Jake, did you see what Jade had to eat today? Jay came in today with a whole.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She always has a little snack.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Is on the Paleo diet. Jade came in with a whole. Who snacks on. Jade had cut up pieces of steak. She eaten them like she Ukrainian.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

What?

[Van Lathan Jr]

I'm sorry.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. I do want to mention something too. Yes. Torturous interference is a real thing. But, yeah, you don't just say torturous.

[Van Lathan Jr]

What is it?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Tortious. Tortious interference.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Tortious.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Torturous.

[Van Lathan Jr]

It's not tortious. It's tortious.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So it's tort law. Yeah, so it's tort.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I O U S. Torturous interference.

[Van Lathan Jr]

And that's when you torture somebody while you interfere with them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But it's like a breach. But wait, a breach. This is something that came out on. Came up in our interview, and I just. I was shocked when you said it. We're gonna play the interview at the end of the podcast, obviously, but you watch the Beauty.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I watched that. I watched that scene.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know anybody else that watches that show.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I saw that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I watched the whole. Do y' all watch it? Anybody watch the Beauty?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Beauty. It's called Beauty, I think.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And that's what I was gonna tell you. I don't think anybody's watched. I think I'm the only person who watches this show.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Well, I saw the. We gonna talk about a scene that I saw where a fat brother with great. With a great jawline, like, committed a mass shooting in a plastic surgeon's office. I'm like, what the fuck is happening? And we're gonna talk about this later on with the ladies. When she come out, I wanna spoil.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And he turns into Jeremy Pope, and then he.

[Van Lathan Jr]

That shit is wild.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's just the beginning.

[Van Lathan Jr]

The question that we're talking about is it doesn't seem as if Ryan Murphy gets the smoke for doing some of that stuff that maybe Tyler Perry does on Beauty and Black. Is there a component here that gets back to what we were sort of talking with Jamie Lawson about? But I watched that one scene, and I was like, I don't know if I could fuck with this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I don't think people are watching it. That's why they didn't talk about it. But that show is wild.

[Van Lathan Jr]

It is.

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[Donnie]

This episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big let's hype up workout clothes guy, but Viori, I gotta say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably gonna see me wearing some Vuori Sunday performance joggers that they have. It's made with four way performance stretch fabric, one of the most comfortable things you own. You will wear them everywhere, I promise. All you have to do is go to viori.com Simmons and you get 20% off your first purchase with Viori V-U-O-R-I.com Simmons enjoy free shipping on all US orders over $75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Ryan Murphy just goes for it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This episode is brought to you by Comcast Business. This just in. The Comcast Business price lock guarantee is back. For a limited time, you can lock in the same great rate on gig speed, Internet and advanced security for free. Five years all from the company with 99.9% network reliability. Switch to the Comcast Business 5 Year Price Lock Guarantee today. Learn more at comcastbusiness.com ends March 29, 2026.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Drew ski with another banger. Drew Ski doing better numbers.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I feel like we're waiting for the next skit. Like, it's like a movie's dropping. Like a song, an album is dropping. We're like, oh, Juski dropped it.

[Crystal Stewart]

What?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because how many? Well, Donnie, actually. Just play it.

[Van Lathan Jr]

War is raging in Iran. We're praying. We're praying for all the soldiers and troops. That's great that you're praying, but how about all the kids that died when the USA hit the towers? It broke my heart. That is the.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, find fresh. In what ways have you grown closer to Jesus?

[Van Lathan Jr]

I serve a righteous God and that is why we say our prayers.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And we are all his children.

[Donnie]

But when I say children, I mean

[Van Lathan Jr]

like the holy blessed Trinity, which is why I hold the Bible.

[Rachel Lindsay]

How many views does it have right now?

[Van Lathan Jr]

4.1 million. He dropped yesterday. Can't be more. It's gotta be more than four.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's on one platform.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah. Cause I saw. What is it on. That's his personal feed. But what about on Twitter? Anyway, it's going crazy. Couple of things.

[Donnie]

74.3.

[Van Lathan Jr]

74.3 million views on Twitter. A couple of things popped, popped out at me about this. Number one, the Drewski's impact and who he is. It almost can't be measured at this point.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No one close.

[Van Lathan Jr]

No one close. He's clearly. He's one of the. Those numbers. The numbers are phenomenal. Like, the amount of interest in what Drew Ski is doing is phenomenal. But then also, Drew Ski is starting to. Drew Ski is the most

[Donnie]

brave.

[Van Lathan Jr]

To me, Drew Ski is amongst. How can I say this? Drew Ski is maybe the most brave cultural commentator like that we have going right now. Like, Drew Ski is starting to, in a direct way, make his politics and his worldview pretty plain. Right when these kids first started, they were these really relatable skits about interpersonal relationships. You bring a girl to a party, a guy's jealous and all that stuff. Stuff we could all agree on and you could tell that the stuff is coming from out of his mind. I don't want to make this directly political because he kind of gives it to everybody. Right? Gives it to a black guy at the frat house, all of that stuff. But when you think about his opinions on the black church, when you think about what's going on here with Erica Kirk, when you think about, when you look at a part of this, this is obviously a send up of Erica Kirk. When you look at a part of this, he has reporters asking Erica Kirk, who. He's playing direct political questions and she's responding with platitudes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's a criticism and religion.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So again, it's. Well, that and how these are also titled. So you have the black church. Right. But then this is specifically titled how conservative women act in America. Now in he's done other skits that are related to the Asian culture, the Latino culture, to black culture, to be in the token, in a cult, like directly a certain type of person. And that's what this is. But to your point, it's controversial. And these are becoming more controversial. Like, I didn't laugh as much as this one, but I was entertained. And I definitely was like, wow, he's going directly at Erica Kirk. And so when I looked at or did the autopsy, as you like to say, there were a lot of people, I looked at it on Twitter, a lot of people criticizing him. Because I think maybe this one, similar to what the black church was for the black culture, this one for white people, made them feel uncomfortable. Because a lot of people were saying, hey, you're mocking her and she lost her husband. You're imitating her emotion when she lost her husband. Even more than her holding the Bible, it was. Well, she lost her husband. This is a bit too far.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah. So it's interesting. I was fascinated here.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm always fascinated.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I'm fascinated as well. In that same way. Specifically though, this particular situation, in a time where, and you gotta think Drew Ski is amongst the most accessible celebrities that we have out there. He legitimately was just at the fanatics thing, the flag football game. It's gonna be Drew Ski and Kevin Hart and all the people who have the most cultural penetration. Right. I was at WrestleMania a couple years ago and WrestleMania, I don't know if people know it was in Philadelphia and it was Brick out that bitch shout out to Cas, man. Me and Cas were sitting there next to the ring at WrestleMania and we going, yo, it's cold in this motherfucker. I couldn't do it. I left first night WrestleMania, went back to the hotel. I Left, couldn't do it. It was too much. Very cold. But of all the celebrities that were there, Drew Ski was the one that people were most interested in. And there were a lot of famous people there. Rappers, actors, a lot of people love wrestling. WrestleMania is a big celebrity event. Drewski was the one that they cared the most about. So knowing that he's beloved in that way and has this type of audience, but seeing that he doesn't shy away. And by the way, he won't argue with you about these skits. He puts these skits out. That's it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think that helps.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Say more.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, because you talked about how brave he is, right. And it obviously is brave to put this out, but if you just put it out and you move on to the next thing. I'm not taking away from his bravery. I'm just saying it doesn't allow people to know. It's open to interpretation. That's how I put it out there. And so it could be that Drewski's like, hey, everybody can get it. No, I'm commenting on exactly what it is that people are talking about right now. Now, I think the most controversial thing in this entire skit is the question about Iran. That's the most direct thing that I've seen him do in that sense. But I think that it's brave to do it. It's brave to leave people up to their own interpretation of it, because you're allowing people to create their own narrative. But he moves on to the next thing. And I think that helps him because you actually can't speak with specificity how he feels about a particular topic. He's just. He could say, I'm just creating a skit on what the social commentary is.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Well, I mean, I think. And there will be a lot of people that talk about Charlie Kirk's death, and like you said, whether or not it's appropriate. Here's the deal. And everyone knows this and should know this. I did not know who Erica Kirk was, not really, prior to Charlie Kirk's death. Same since then. Erica Kirk has become a national political figure, a national social and political figure. She's taken up the mantle of running Turning Point usa. People are gonna talk about it. It's the way that it goes, right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like they talked about her husband.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Like they talked about her husband. It's the way that it goes. If there was anything that directly in this skit was involved in, had to do, or there was a commentary about Charlie Kirk's assassination, if this skit were in any way making fun of the death or the assassin. I could see people having a problem with it, but it doesn't. He's talking about conservative women and he's using Erica Kirk as the mascot for that. And by the way, this skit aside, the fact that Drew Ski at this point in his career has reached this sort of. I don't even really know what to say, but I would just say to all artists, like, yeah, he has a lot of brand deals, he has a lot of stuff. There's a lot. But when he has something to say, he just fucking says it. He says it in the art, he says it in the sketch, he just fucking says it and he leaves it there. You guys talk about it. That's what you do. And the black church was mad at him. Now the conservatives are gonna be mad at him. It'll be interesting to see what they try to do because this right here, just to let you know, is going to be peds like Ben Shapiro, Clay Travis, whomever is going to take this and inject it into their veins. Like injected into their veins. But I saw this, I was like. When I watched it, conservative. Then I saw, I was like, Erica, I was like, oh, shit, Drew Ski, talk your shit, do your thing. And we do need to have a conversation about people taking relevant geopolitical and social issues and then responding in the most milquetoast platitudes, really, in intellectual and emotional lies to people when we're in this type of situation.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah. I mean, that's coming from the top.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Relevant conversation, relevant conversation. Also, I'll say this just so people know before we go. Get off the topic. Anytime. I just let you all know, I'm not entertaining a white face thing. If you're not smart enough at this point, just fucking get over it. I'm not entertaining a white face thing. I'm not entertaining it. I'm not entertaining it. I'm not entertaining it. If you can't see the difference, God bless, go with him. But anytime this goes from white chicks to this, anytime a black man takes on the mantle of a blonde eyed, blue eyed, blue eyed, blonde haired, white woman, it is terrifying. This is scary. This was. This is like, y' all don't watch white chicks that don't scare y'?

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

All?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yes, that shit is fucking scary. Yes, I'm afraid of it. Like, I watched this. The nails, the eyes, the whole deal.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The nails were crazy.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah. Like, anytime this happens, I'm terrified.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, feet in the ballet shoes.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah, it's scary as shit to me. It's Scary.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The close ups were terrifying.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Talking about white chicks or this?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm talking about this. I mean, white chicks is one thing, but this.

[Van Lathan Jr]

When he's looking at the thing, I think Drew Ski was playing with horror a little bit. Cause, nigga.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, that was Erica Kirk. She did that.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah, but, you know, I'm looking at it. She don't really scare me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, when she does that stare, you get scared. Stop it.

[Van Lathan Jr]

You scared of her?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Stop.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Oh, you know what?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Can I ask you a question?

[Rachel Lindsay]

What? What?

[Van Lathan Jr]

ABC needs a Bachelorette.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You gotta be f. Let's go. You gotta be fucking kidding me.

[Van Lathan Jr]

What do you mean?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I would only do it if you hosted.

[Van Lathan Jr]

No, I'm not talking about you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, I was like, come on.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I would definitely host it, by the way.

[Rachel Lindsay]

If you hosted it, I'd be so down.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I'm talking about Erica Kirk.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Can you imagine? I saw somebody say that online. Cause people are throwing names out there. It would get views.

[Van Lathan Jr]

It would.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'd probably watch just out of pure curiosity.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Question.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But they got another show, that traditional marriage show. That's for her.

[Van Lathan Jr]

That's for her. You don't have anything to do with picking the guys that are on your season when you're on the Bachelorette, right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No. They'll just be like, is there anything that's off limits?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Oh, they ask you that. So they ask you about the guys and they go, so, like, is there something?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, you can't. Nobody goes in there and is like, no. Like, no. You don't say, like, no particular race. Nobody does that. I would hope not. I don't think so.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Let me tell you what the.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I said like, no athletes.

[Van Lathan Jr]

You said no athletes. Interesting. You were over it at that point.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was over it.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Tap down. If Erica Kirk was on the Bachelorette, this is an easy one.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, let's do it.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Erica goes to O block. I'm talking Erica. All niggas. The fuck I'm talking about. And I'm not talking about the. The ones I'm not talking about. Shout out to Coleman Hughes. We talked about him on the podcast. I'm not talking about Coleman Hughes. Coleman Hughes. I'm talking about nigga Erica Kirk. I'm talking all the people.

[Rachel Lindsay]

6 WA.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Erica Kirk, 6 WAIT. I'm talking big X Rosa. I'm talking Erica Kirkland. Like that. That they would get me to watch.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who wouldn't watch it?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Like that they would get me to watch.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I wouldn't want to see. I don't actually. I wouldn't want to see that.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah, but I'm just letting people know that if you guys think that someone is going to enter into this realm of politics and visibility and not have anyone send them up, make a parody, do a thing. You're crazy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The conversation is so intersected now. It's almost like if you consider yourself a part of a cultural commentator, how do you get away from it? You know, these are the conversations people have.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Who's next for Drew Ski?

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's a great question.

[Van Lathan Jr]

What would be Drewski's next skit to you?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Imitating politicians.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Really? You think so? Drew Ski is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's Pete Hegseth.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Juski is Pete Hexseth.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Can you imagine being like, oh, gosh, what's the new guy's name for dhs? Mark? Yeah. Like, doing, like, crazy moments from Congress. I mean, not Congress, from, like, hearings, hearing committees.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Well, what really be funny is if Drew Ski.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Or he's just Trump.

[Van Lathan Jr]

If he did an Iran one.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You can't.

[Van Lathan Jr]

If he did it in the wrong one and he played them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The time has passed.

[Van Lathan Jr]

That would be funny.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The time has passed. But I could see him doing Trump.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah, I can see him doing something.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think it's gonna be politics. He's slowly creeping that way. Politicians.

[Van Lathan Jr]

But I tell you, there is a calculus here. The calculus is, what do you know that people have strong opinions about? And what can you make funny? And to me, that's what good subversive art is. What do you know people care about? And what can you take from that and make funny? So Drew Ski, doing it at a level right now that I don't know, man. As far as he's showing the. He's showing what you can do with social media in this era. And before you get. Before we get out here, before you get off the subject, shout out to Kai. So not too, like, shout out to him like, I'm watching Kai Sanat's evolution and everything that Kai Sinat is thinking about and everything that is on his mind and how he doesn't want to be pigeonholed with great interest. Like Emperor Palpatine said about Anakin Skywalker, I'm watching your career with great interest. Do you know why he said that to him?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Come on. No, I don't. I really don't even know who.

[Van Lathan Jr]

If you can guess why he said that to him, I'll give you a thousand cash.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What did he say?

[Van Lathan Jr]

So Palpatine, at that point.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm interested now.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Who is not the emperor. He wasn't at that point. He looked at a young Anakin Skywalker. And he goes, I shall watch your career with great interest. And we all went, oh, shit. Why did he say that to him?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because he knew he was gonna be Luke.

[Van Lathan Jr]

You almost had the money.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But he's just. He knew he was gonna be.

[Van Lathan Jr]

No, no. You almost had. I was. I actually freaked out a little bit. Hold on for a second. I thought I was gonna have to give him a thousand bucks. That. That literally just with me. He was.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He.

[Van Lathan Jr]

He knew he was going to be Vader.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Damn.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Okay. Like that. Actually. My. My. My shit is like. I thought I was gonna have to give Rachel a thousand dollars. Whoa.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I wouldn't have made you do it.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah. I was like, you know. You know, I thought I was gonna have to scarce.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm your father.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

He knew that.

[Van Lathan Jr]

He was.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I heard the Skywalker and I got. I was like, Luke. And it's like, no, he's his Luke. I'm your father.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Last time I'm doing that shit. Fuck it. She almost fucked around and came up on a nice weekend. That goes so quick for Rach. Thousand dollars, Rach go to three spas. It's out.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm kind of right, though. I'm kind of right.

[Van Lathan Jr]

You're not right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I kind of had. I. 500.

[Van Lathan Jr]

No, you're not right. Cause he knew that he was. He knew that he was going to try to tempt him later on. And maybe he didn't know at that point, but that if you would have said he knew that he was going to be Vader. Every Star wars person knows that. I would have had to accept that, and that would have been disastrous. Both in my.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I've chopped out. I'm getting good.

[Van Lathan Jr]

You're getting too close.

[Crystal Stewart]

That six years in.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I'm getting too.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This isn't who's in the what was it the what.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

What?

[Rachel Lindsay]

League. Justice League. This isn't who's in the Justice League anymore.

[Van Lathan Jr]

How you say the Justice League like it's some obscure group of superheroes from motherfucking Boise, Idaho. Is Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman?

[Rachel Lindsay]

The Flash said Wonder Woman, and you told me it didn't change.

[Van Lathan Jr]

And goddamn.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I love. I think I said Wonder Woman.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Pisses me off that you just did that. I love how you act like the who. The who. That's like saying, who, who?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Van. It's a whole nother world. I don't know dc, I don't know Marvel, so it's a whole nother world to me. But I did do well in naming people. Just the wrong thing.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah, you did.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I Made up my own character.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah, it's tough.

[Rachel Lindsay]

May he live on.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Who? Raja.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Raja Binks.

[Van Lathan Jr]

All right, let's get into Jay Z and Jay Z and Usher. Okay. Now, also, people want us to touch back in on the LA Russell entire debate, the whole thing with LA Russell. Do you? So the Russell is reacting to, like, what's going on with the Heaven Sent situation. We had some fun with the Heaven Sent song and the video for it here on the podcast. What do you think of LaRussell's reaction to this? Have you been seeing it?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I did. I saw the interview that he did on Effective Immediately, I believe is the name of the show, and I appreciated the woman kind of pushing back on the things he was saying. I guess if his engineer told him not to do it and he decided to do it anyway, I didn't think that the response from everybody and how viral it went in such a negative way would get him to change his mind. I figured he would double down on it, which is what he did. But him saying fake outrage to me, like, sometimes you just have to take DL. Sometimes you have to just say, I understand why people are upset. They misinterpreted what I was trying to say. But for him to then push back and be like, that's just fake outrage. Outrageous. If people weren't genuinely bothered or disappointed or upset by what you said because you didn't say something like, hey, I don't like Anita Baker. That's not what you said. Tough, you said, or, Anita Baker doesn't move me. Right. It's not personal. Her music doesn't move me. It's not like you said something like that. It's that you said something that defends.

[Van Lathan Jr]

That would be cool.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, that upsets a group of people. And the fact that you don't even try to understand where you might have fans that are Jewish, you might have. I forgot who all did. Who else did he name other than Hitler?

[Donnie]

Donald.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You might have fans that have been assaulted. You might have. I couldn't remember everybody that he. That he named.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Say them. Say them three names a lot.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, Epstein. Epstein, Hitler. And who was the Donald Trump.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Donald Trump and Donald Trump.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, it's just so. It almost is. It's worse. It obviously it was bad when you said it. And then for you to just be like, oh, that's just fake outrage. As if people don't mean it. It makes it worse because you genuinely aren't considering. Like, I understand he's. I understand. I do not agree. But he's like, oh, this is just me being an artist. Well, you have to understand that art can be offensive and so there's a consequence to what you do and that is people being upset by it. So I didn't expect him to take it back. But watching it, I thought, now this is even more upsetting for me at least.

[Van Lathan Jr]

So I will say that the effective immediately show that you're talking about, I want to give them props.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, they did.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Well, that lady, that woman that you're talking about is the one and only Gina Views. Fucking rising star Gina Views. I got so much nice to say about everyone. Gina Views is one of those people.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She's great.

[Van Lathan Jr]

You know where I first started seeing her at where no jumper and she left and she didn't boss.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, that's, that's cause she knows what's up.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Since Gina Views is doing her thing. And of course DJ Head, you guys know that's my guy. DJ Head and Gina Views are crafting this fantastic platform. It's already actually crafted voices out here on the West. So I want to make sure I give them their shout outs. This is, you know, I'm going to pick up on something that you said about the Russell thing. First of all, the Russell's a good brother, right? I could la Russell's a good brother. But something that you said I'm gonna pick up is you said sometimes you gotta learn how to take the L, right? That is always gonna be hard, particularly for a young black man that's in the spot that LA Russell's in. I actually don't think gently and respectfully, this is about taking the L. I actually think this is about taking the W. Because there is a win here. The win here is this. We're going to talk about some performers and people in a second. I'm going to talk about celebrity and community and all that. The win here is this. The win here is the opportunity to deepen your connection with people that are open to that. There are plenty of people that see the opportunity to jump on something that wasn't said right or something that's gone wrong for their own platforms. You can't even worry about them. But there are also other people who legitimately are living in a world where we're trying to figure out how we deal with the Epstein class, where antisemitism, anti black racism is at an all time high. Right? Where Donald Trump is getting us in wars in Iran, where Donald Trump has ICE agents shooting people in Minneapolis. These represent existential threats, like you said, to people's existence. And Perhaps having a conversation about the inherent goodness of those people, while I can understand the goal there, perhaps it's not the right time, perhaps it's insensitive, Perhaps it doesn't take into consideration how people feel in this moment right now. And what we really never talk about is somehow sometimes how an apology, not an apology or a clarification, not a clarification or more communication with people after you've wronged them, how it can deepen your connection to them, how that's sometimes how you get the deepest connection to somebody is to be like, hey, you know what? I can't apologize for my art. I can't even qualify my art. But what I can do is try to understand you. I can try to understand what it is that you're saying. I can make a legitimate effort to go, hey, maybe I did not think of that. And for anyone that's going to have any type of lasting influence in anything, that is the number one trait that you have to have. The number one trait that you have to have is the ability to try to deepen your connection or your relationship with someone during a time when it's not easy to do that. And the. That's harder to do when you're. When you're young. And it's also harder to do when you are living your life on the Internet. When you're living your life on the Internet and the Internet is a gigantic part of what La Russell's been able to do. Sometimes it feels like any attempt to be like, ah, whatever, I feel y', all, I'm with y'. All, whatever. It either feels scripted notes, app apology, an apology directly at a video screen, or it feels like you're backing down to them. Man, I know what it feels like not to want to back down. I'm 45 and I'm still dealing with that. I know what it feels like. But the worst thing you can possibly do is act like you're above a conversation. Yes, that is the thing that insulates you from people. That's the thing that makes people go, wait a minute, are you with us? Because, like, that's the thing. And if there was anything for me to say, I don't think that this is the end of him. I don't think it's even. I think it's a blip. But what it could be is a learning experience.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Could be.

[Van Lathan Jr]

And how to be in conversation, like, really useful conversation with people that you will want support from.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So right now it's an L. But it could be if he does if he gets to what you're saying, there's space for the W. Well, what I'm

[Van Lathan Jr]

essentially saying is sometimes we have to identify W's in situations where it feels like an L. Y' all all know that I wild out on the podcast earlier this year, got on here and acted stupid, was disrespectful to this platform, like, embarrass my mother. When I thought about that, you know, the opportunity for me was to, number one, explain to the audience why my feelings are so raw about that. Like the trauma that makes me reflexively defend black men. Like why that's important to me, you know, but also try to, even in the staccato, long winded, oftentimes in artful way that I communicate, try to make people understand that it's out of love. Like, that it's out of toxic, misplaced, unevolved love. It's out of love. It's out of me wanting. It's out of love and personal trauma that I'm not trying to hurt nobody. And anytime you not trying to hurt nobody, there should be an opportunity for people to coalesce around a set of ideas and behaviors that you have and be like, let's make small tweaks. That's a W that makes. That gets me closer to the audience. That gets me closer to you. But more than anything, gets me closer to myself. And sometimes we have to be able to identify when it's time to do that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sure,

[Van Lathan Jr]

sometimes it takes a little ego death.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, right.

[Van Lathan Jr]

But sometimes we have to identify that it's not actually an L. It's an opportunity to further connect.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's tough, but it takes two.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Well, I mean, in this situation, it's like. This is. A lot of people I know are, like, more upset with the reaction than they even were with the heavens said. You're not wrong.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because there was an opportunity, like you said, and it got worse.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah, I mean, look, but once again, I just. Man, it's we you out. You trying to. It's trying to be positive and trying to be a light. It's harder. And the reason why I give. It's more difficult. It's more difficult to come out there. I listen to rappers and my favorite record right now.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

What?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Six. Wait, have you heard this record?

[Usher]

Mm.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Mm.

[Van Lathan Jr]

This is one of the hardest records that I've heard in a while. Gotta listen to this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is coming from 6 WA.

[Van Lathan Jr]

This is coming from your. This is coming from your neck of the woods.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, clearly not. Cause I don't know, it.

[Van Lathan Jr]

It's Big ass to plug. It's Big X. The Plug Rosama. Who else? Young Hood. Young Hood. I wanna make sure I shout out everybody on the record. Hold on. 6 WA. And I'll tell you how I heard this. Nick Cannon. Nick Cannon put this up. So it's Big X to plug Rosama. Young Hood Murder Gang PB6WA is the record. It is just an insanely hard record, right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's an album.

[Van Lathan Jr]

No, just this one song is what I'm talking about. It's an album. I think they got a whole album out, but this one Rosama turned into a different being on the verse. Rosama, like, evolved into some different type of rap entity on the earth. But they out there and they rapping. They taking on the imagery of NWA and they talking they shit. And there's a hell of a lot of talent that is being displayed right there. If that song was about the war in Iran, the bar of what you have to say and how you have to say it in that record is higher. It just. It's higher. It's harder to do. It's like if whatever you're doing, if you. If you're rapping about the love of your mother, it's harder. It's hard. It's harder to do. It's harder to take them feelings and put them in. It's more difficult. And along with that comes. This is a lot. There's a lot of. You have to make sure that what you're saying has the depth and rhetorical power that your emotion behind it has. So. And it's. And the bar is going to be higher for the Russell or anybody else that's trying to. To have any substance in what they're doing. That's not me saying that. The rest of this shit, I'm not with it. I listen to all of that more than I listen to the other. But just know that you'll have a different set of. Of. Of expectations anyway, so. But you don't fuck with him. You, like, fuck it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, no. I didn't really listen to La Wrestle anyway before.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Oh, my God. See what I'm saying?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, but. So I'm definitely not the person it

[Van Lathan Jr]

was fuck him before.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, it was not that. I just wasn't into his music before I knew who he was.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I don't like that smiling shit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I don't feel I'm gonna keep the same energy I had before. I really wasn't listening to him before. But I'm also like. I'm not like, fuck him. I'm not like this is over for him, but I do wish that he could recognize what people are saying. Right. I'm not even saying how they feel, just even what. Understand what people are saying. But, like, I feel like we've stayed on this too long. I just. I'm. And there might be a day. It might take a year or two. Maybe he'll come around and reflect on this moment and be like, have the same perspective that you just gave with your own situation. Maybe he will. And then maybe. And then at that time, it'll be a dub, but also just come with some hot records.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Okay, so we're gonna now talk about Jay Z and Usher now. It's tough, the whole stuff, not tough. I thought it was very interesting.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I was like, interview.

[Van Lathan Jr]

The Usher thing is. The Usher thing is tough. That's a tough one. It's a tough one, but it's kind of like, goes. It's tough. All right. Jay Z sat down for an interview. Frazier Thorpe is the gentleman's name that he sat down with. Shout out to him. You might see me and him doing some stuff pretty soon. Shout out to Sean Dickerson. But, Donnie, get into it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Donnie]

Like you said, Jay Z sat down with GQ, marking the 30th anniversary of reasonable Doubt. Hit on a bunch of different topics, including the lawsuit he faced last year. Capitalism, Rap beef. Y' all heard it. What we all take aways from Jay Z. Sit down.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Okay. We got Jay Z on capitalism. We also got Jay Z on rap beef. Rach, where you want to go first?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Capitalism.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Let's do Jay Z on capitalism. Donnie. So I wanted you to talk a

[Donnie]

little bit about this idea of, like.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Like you said earlier, like, the things that you do for the culture, the ways that you put on, the ways

[Donnie]

that you try to protect and move

[Van Lathan Jr]

forward, but kind of the pushback that you get sometimes about, like, people throwing capitalists at you in a derogatory sense. Yeah.

[Donnie]

I think in that verse specifically, the only thing I heard coming up was the American dream until we started being successful. And it was like, wait a minute. You're selling out because you're making money? That was the first thing that was put on musicians. People had this allure for the struggling artists. That's a mind game. Well, we would call back in the day for trickinology. It was like, no, I'm not going for that. Like, no, no. I make art first, and then I make sure that I'm compensated for my art. I didn't take advantage. I didn't get here by taking advantage of people. I ain't taking no one. No one. That's not my reputation. That's not what I do. I didn't get here by taking advantage of people or taking advantage of, you know, the loopholes in the system or some wrinkle in, like, a capitalist structure. That structure exists, you know, And I just see the world for what it is, not for what I want it to be. I'm a realist, not an ideal. It's not idealistic. People speak about the world how they want to see it. You're never going to win like that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So he's a capitalist. He just confirms it. He said. And he basically says at the end with his last sentence, like, that's the world that we live in. And you're never gonna achieve certain things if you basically. If you're not a capitalist. It's like, what was the line. What was the line about the world you wanna see versus the what?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah, he sees the world as it is and not how he wants it to be.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. And he says, if you see the world as you want it to be, then basically you're never gonna have success in that way. In this way. As a capitalist. I wasn't shocked by that. I thought, you know, he goes on to later talk about being a billionaire and is that bad? And he kind of answers it in a similar way. He basically says it's not. He doesn't pay attention to that. He doesn't. He doesn't think that it's. It's a negative thing for him to be a billionaire. But, I mean, what. Were you surprised by anything that he said? He's. He basically says, I grew up being told about this American dream. I grew up in this system of capitalism. I grew up that this is what. This is what it is to be successful, what it is to achieve success. I didn't take advantage of anybody. I worked my way through a system and I have success through it. I guess I just. I didn't expect him to say anything different.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I'm gonna say something just before I say this. This is for earlier, by the way. Black films should not have to continuously show every time. Just so you guys know, like, we should be able to write a movie, get the movie financed. Go see you me in Tuscany. Like, go see you me in Tuscany. Go see it. Go see it. But just know that that rubric is unfair. Like, that. That set of circumstances just dawned on me to say this. That set of circumstances where in order for a black film to be made or greenlit Six months from now, they have to look at every other black film and make sure that the movie.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, that's what we said.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I know. Just make sure. But I want go see the movie because we don't have to exist in the world like it is, like Jay Z. But just know that that's bullshit. Yeah, very true. So you know what? I don't think I've ever understood Jay Z more

[Rachel Lindsay]

from that.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yep.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You didn't feel like you had that understanding of him already when it comes to capitalism?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Um, no, I took the Jay Z out of it when I was looking at this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And what. And who did you put in it instead?

[Van Lathan Jr]

So many people that I know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Black men.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr]

And because everything that he said is 1000% correct, we are educated and in the language of Oprah, Jordan, Michael Jackson, Mike Tyson, we're educated in the language of. There's an opportunity for you to change your designation in America. Like, you can buy your humanity. You can make enough money to where the water that you drink is clean, to where your housing is immaculate. You can get to an economic perch in America where your blackness can be overcome. If you can make enough money. If you can make enough money, then you can get out of the situation that you've been put in. You can hobnob with people that wouldn't necessarily give a fuck about you. There is a way out of your birth circumstance as long as you can buy it. That is the central operating thesis of capitalism. You buy your way to being human. You buy your way to getting things that human beings should have. And that there's no obligation for anyone to even care whether or not you can have them unless you can produce. And so that's what we do. So what we do is we engage in this capitalism and this competition, and it becomes our whole thing. And then imagine getting there and someone saying, now you're bad because you did the thing that society told you to do. I think the break for me, and just the grand break, is that Jay Z is saying, we in that. But there is no way what should be saying, what should be being said is, I, I got money. I made it. I did this. Because the pushback on capitalism right now isn't about who made money fairly or who made money ethically. It's about whether or not the system is inherently fair or ethical. And every time I hear somebody talk about this, that is missed. What people are saying is that they're looking around and they're seeing insane income inequality. They're seeing the eroding of Living standards for average Americans. They're seeing even sometimes the life expectancy change, right? It seemed fucked up. Food is seeing declining infrastructure. And they're not saying that Jay Z isn't working. They're saying this isn't working. They're saying this thing that everyone was told to buy into and that this would be the saving grace. Not of the billionaire class, of the people who are doing fantastic, not of Trump and Hov and Robert Kraft and Michael Rubin. Yeah, it's working for them. What people are saying is, it's not working for us. And when we have this conversation, it always gets personalized. It gets personalized by people who go, hey, now that we didn't made the money, now they telling us that we're bad. We're saying the thing is bad. We're saying the thing is inefficient. We're saying the thing is grotesque. We're saying the thing creates winners and losers. It manufactures that. We're saying the thing that we were told was the saving grace of our American existence is it's an illusion. And we're trying to have that conversation even with the people who have been able to make the thing work for them. We're trying to say, you're rich. I might be rich, you might be rich. But we're trying to say everywhere else, there's a tremendous amount of immiseration, There's a tremendous amount of systemic failure. And that systemic failure isn't getting better the more money he makes. That systemic failure isn't getting better the more money the people at the top make. That's not what's happening. And when I. The reason why I connected to what he was saying is because, man, this religion, this religion of capitalism, where I come from, yo, it's all niggas have, like, it's legit legitimately.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The idea of capitalism, the idea that

[Van Lathan Jr]

you can get rich and change your life for yourself, your entire family, all your generations behind, they get picked is so. I wish I had the words. I wish I was better at this. It's like 4, 3, 40. Come with us. 7ft tall, come with us. Good rapper, come with us. And every time they come along with us, they bring along a little forest of people. They cousin get to go to culinary school, somebody get to do the video. And then when one of them falls, that entire forest burns the fuck down. But if not for that, my nigga, you gonna eat oodles and noodles for your whole life until you go to Angola and then you fucking. So when we're trying to Have a conversation about what we're doing. We're not having a conversation about whether or not somebody should make a lot of money. That's not what we're fucking talking about. What we're talking about is whether or not there should be extreme wealth inequality. This whoring of resources at the top, this ridiculous approach to the humanity of people. Like, if I was sitting down and I was talking to somebody, I was like, hey, I understand what you're saying. But a lot of people lost their homes in 2008. And you would think that the people that engineered that entire thing would have got punished. They didn't get punished. They got rich. Those people had to go back to the poor house. What the fuck are we on right now? And so I think a lot of people are gonna look at that and they're gonna say, hey, he's wrong. Because he is raging against any type of criticism of capitalism. He's actually saying, I don't have the capacity to come to terms with the fact that I was lied to. And it also doesn't feel like I was lied to because everything they said came true. Like, I got money, and when I got money, my shit was better. And I was able to not only do that, but build the force for everyone else. It all worked. Now, you telling me is wrong.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're not wrong in what you said. But I don't think that that was the converse. That's not how the question was asked. And I don't think that that's. I don't even know if I think Jay Z would disagree with you about a broken system. I don't think that that's how he took the question or how he answered it. I think he took it personal about being a capitalist. Right. Like, technically, I'm a capitalist right? And I wouldn't get offended if somebody called me that. But I also believe in everything that you just said about a system. Right? And when I listened to Jay Z answer this particular question, to your point, I understood his mindset of how he grew up and the age we grew up and who we looked at as our heroes that look like us and what they had and what they attained. Jay Z goes on in that interview and Frazier's talking to him and he uses the phrase aloud. Cause something you said about Jay Z, and you were. You do. I was trying to write down what you were saying. Cause I was trying to remember it. But you were talking about. You said, he's talking about buying your humanity. You went on. On something like that. And it made me Think of later in this conversation where he. Where Frazier uses the word aloud. And he said, don't do that. Don't say the word aloud. He said, because aloud makes you. Makes it seem like somebody has authority over you. I could also take that as in you're saying a system has authority over you. And his response was, nobody does. It's this idea that you need permission to do something should not exist. You should just do it. Right. Don't operate in a place of, I can only go so far because this is what they've told me. I can go beyond that. I don't need your permission. I can just do it. And when I listen to him say that and kind of the way he conducts himself in the whole interview, R.A. it doesn't mean that I don't think he thinks that there is a broken system. I felt like he took this opportunity, this interview, as an opportunity to say, this is who I am. And these are certain mindsets that I. A mindset that I've had to achieve the things that I have. And I'm not necessarily letting somebody criticize me for saying I'm a capitalist or criticize me for saying I'm a billionaire. I understand the other side of it, but what I'm telling you is don't allow certain things to have authority over you, that you can't achieve greatness, that you can't achieve these things. I looked at it as the whole interview he was trying to be more motivational and more encouraging and more like a mentor. Then he took it as an opportunity to maybe call out certain systems. So I can't say so it's just interesting how we took it because I agree with what you're saying. I just took this interview as something else. And I wonder if other people did as well. So it's hard for me to say, well, Jay Z doesn't, you know, should have said this as if maybe he doesn't think these things because he's a capitalist or because he is a billionaire. I just think he just responded in a completely different way.

[Van Lathan Jr]

So well said. Interesting. This is what I'll say. He said that to Frazier about being allowed, but then he rhetorically contradicted that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What did you say?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Later on in the interview, he also talked about how he knew that he was going to be. They were going to try to kill him, or they were, or they or these forces are trying to kill him. That's the allow. So the. So like. So Jay Z's point in that was that, like, later on he talks about he goes, well, we know that when we get here, when we do this, like, they're going to try to kill us. They're going to try to do all that. That's the allow. The allow the. So either what he's not seeing. He understood when it was articulated to him that the term allow should not be used because he feels like it suns him or minimizes him. But then he also admitted that he was under what it felt like was uncommon pressure and criticism and scrutiny because of who he is. That's the allow. The allow is whether or not somebody like him is not just not able to make money, but whether or not they're able to make it peacefully. Whether or not they're able to make it, like, in a way that doesn't compromise who they are. Whether or not you're able to do what it is that you do, and you don't have to change your ideals because there are other people that start off capitalist. They start off in a certain way. They start off and they're able to make money and be that same person. A lot of times, if you are black, the allow part comes in from the point to where we have to make sure that you are predictable before you get into this room, that we know what you're going to do. And I think when people say that, sometimes they think, van, there's so many black people that are unpredictable, that make a lot of money. Those people are predictably unpredictable. Like, you know, you're taking a chance on them. What white America hates more than anything is for them to think that they know a black person. And then they get into the room and then have this nigga start talking about Malcolm X, right? So what the allow portion of what Jay Z is talking about, he actually addresses that later on when he talks about some of the scrutiny and the attacks that he's faced for being black and being rich. My point is not that he doesn't understand his place as a capitalist. My point is I don't think he gets what the conversation around capitalism is. He thinks the conversation around capitalism is around his capitalism. He thinks the conversation around billionaires is about the fact that he is a billionaire. That is not the conversation. The conversation around capitalism is, at least from where I sit and who I talk to, an interrogation of capitalism writ large. An interrogation of the existence of billionaires writ large. Elon Musk has $850 billion, guys. Come on, man. Like, for come on, guys. Price is going up everywhere. People can't afford a house. $850 billion. We're going to have a conversation. It's not going anywhere. We're going to talk about this. We're going to talk about what? We're going to talk about tax and wealth. We're going to talk about. We're going to talk about this. It's not going anywhere. And so, like, what I'm saying in this situation is watching him, these attacks, I'm sure, and the reason why I see it is I'm sure they feel personal to him. And a lot of times they are personal, but also the same shit that he got. We all got it. They told all of us that. They told all of us that. Black, white, red, green, whatever. It's like they told all of us. I get it. I understand the frustration with, well, shit, now I'm on top now. It's wrong. I get that. But what's actually being said is while it worked for you, it's not really working for a lot of other people. And we are at an inflection point where the decadence and the inefficiency of our society threatens the whole thing. You need to give some out. You need to spread it around. And if they don't fucking listen, the torches are coming out. And I fucking mean that. That's a real thing. If these people don't fucking listen, if they don't read the tea leaves.

[Rachel Lindsay]

All right, I agree with you. Yeah, I'm just. I'm literally limiting it to the interview. I think that if he had pressed him and widened the conversation, I would be really curious to see how Jay Z responded.

[Van Lathan Jr]

He was right about the battling.

[Rachel Lindsay]

About how specifically to Kendrick and Drake or.

[Van Lathan Jr]

He was right about the battling, man. He was right about the battling.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's the only thing that exists in hip hop now.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Donnie played the sound. We heard the sound. Whatever. He's right about that. Social media has changed the battling.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So you think social media was too hard on Drake?

[Van Lathan Jr]

That's not what I'm saying. See what I'm saying? That's what I love about Rach. No, I'm not saying it at all. You know who I think social media was really hard on?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who?

[Van Lathan Jr]

I think they were hard on Meek. I never saw.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah, they were hard.

[Van Lathan Jr]

It was brands.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Fuck. What the fuck do Whataburger have to do with the meek versus Drake? Like, whataburger's like, ha, ha, we got the beef, and we're better at beef than Meek Mill. And I'm like, what? Why are you dissing them? That's the difference. Like, in 2003, like, HOV could lose to Nas and he didn't have to worry about McDonald's dissing. Ha ha. Look at J.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What the fuck? 2001.

[Van Lathan Jr]

So, like, whatever, 2001, you know, I love the Blueprint.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So that era. I know.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Catch me up, Rach. Catch me up. Now. How you do it? Clock it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's this one.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Is this one.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's clock.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Clock it. Clock it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no. Duran said that the straights need to stop doing this. And it's this, like, you ate, like, sign language. The number eight you ate. He's Duran.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Bernard, whatever.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Duran. Bernard.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Duran's coming on the podcast.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's this.

[Van Lathan Jr]

So is this. This is how you do clocking.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what he said.

[Van Lathan Jr]

This is how you do clock it. So it's not like this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why are all your fingers moving? It should just be this.

[Van Lathan Jr]

This is my Mo Better Blues situation. You never seen this before? I do my mo Better blues. Denzel. You never said Denzel's in Mo Better Blues.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Love that movie so much.

[Van Lathan Jr]

He's, like, going crazy. But no. Now Jay Z and Nas had their beef. Two things change directly. One is this whole. You got 24 hours to respond. That's the Internet. The Internet needs things fast. Takeover comes out. And then when Steelmatic drops, that's some time after Ether comes out. I could not wait to hear Ether. Then when the Blueprint 2 came out, I could not wait to hear the blueprint 2. Then when Godson came out, I could not wait to hear Godson. There was, at least for me, I was in Louisiana. I'm sure it was different in New York and stuff like that, but I did not have a fealty to either rapper. To where it was like, this rapper represents saving hip hop. This rapper represents the end of hip hop. You could listen to both of them. When Pac and Big had they thing, that one was a little bit more dramatic.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I mean.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I mean, that was like. I'm not gonna lie.

[Rachel Lindsay]

People died.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah, I know. But when I'm. They didn't die over no beef. Well, they didn't die over no hip hop beef. Niggas got killed on some LA street shit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Depends which story you believe.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Okay, cool. I don't wanna get into it. Yeah, I wanna go to the Core Cafe this weekend.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, it was related. It was all related, but go ahead.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I'm not saying nothing. I love all hoods. Whatever hood you in, that's the hood I love the most. So right now, if you're in Compton and you wondering, I wonder if that nigga Van fuck with you. Yeah, we do. We. Yeah, we, we us right now. If you're in the Jordan Downs and you like. I haven't heard Van mention the Jordan Downs. You just did. And I love you wherever you are. The essays too. Viva la raza. I'm just trying to play basketball. Just don't come up to me when I'm at the part like, just leave me alone. I'm like, Got nothing to do with. Started before me. I wasn't a part of none of it. And niggas walk up to me and they'll be like, hey, who you know around here? And I. Brother, I know. Jesus, brother. That's who I know. You know where a grandmother state? Baton Rouge. I hope she's happy and doing well. I have nothing to do with whatever happened in 1987.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I gotta tell you, though, when I watched this interview, though, it was the first time I looked at Jay Z and I thought, he's 56.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Oh, I thought you was about to say something else.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, he felt. And he, like, he jokes, he's like, I'm old. I'm in. But like, I hit me in this interview. It just. I was like, wow, Jay Z's 60?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah, 60 year old guy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He'll be 67 this year. Like, Jay Z is 6.

[Van Lathan Jr]

How old is. He's 1959. Yeah, he's 57 this year. 57 this year.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It really hit me. You gonna go to the concert?

[Van Lathan Jr]

No, but I don't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But you definitely. I'm definitely trying to go to the

[Van Lathan Jr]

Blueprint, but you know, I don't like concerts though.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I'm definitely trying to go to the Blueprint night if I can. I'll ask you for the hookup later.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I don't have any hookups. I know you don't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know you don't. No, you don't.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Like, not one.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know you don't.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

If.

[Rachel Lindsay]

If the fate of the world I know was.

[Van Lathan Jr]

If I. If the fate of the world was hanging on the fact that I had to get somebody from ROC Nation on the phone to have a conversation, we dead.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I hope that don't trickle down to me because I've tried to go.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I have no problem with anybody, by the way. I'm just saying. It's not a thing. I don't have any hookups over there. It's like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know.

[Van Lathan Jr]

You know, I got them everywhere else, but, like, not there. But. Yeah, I think the beef thing was correct. I don't know if we need to stop I don't know. Him saying that we need to stop the beef. I don't know if I can really.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did he say stop?

[Van Lathan Jr]

He said he thinks that it should probably stop. He's talking about whether or not it should stop. I don't know if. I mean, that's not. I'm not in the hip hop. I don't know. We have to get some rappers.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The way the beef is now is basically. I think he would be a fan of keeping it if we took away the way that people beef now.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Cause that basically was his complaint is the negativity surround. Like, it wasn't like. Like, to your point, like, people wanted to destroy one or the other. It was like, you're either this or you're this nothing. Like, you couldn't. I'm not saying that we necessarily did that, but that is how it was on social media.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Everybody's always had their favorites. And sometimes this stuff did turn into real, actual violence. But I'm talking about just the way the fan bases are able to do it. And social media. It could just. It can extend vitriol. No, Indefinitely. Before we get to the ladies from Beauty and Black, Usher. Usher did an interview with Forbes.

[Donnie]

Donnie, like you said, he did an interview with Forbes. He sat down with them and said that he has, quote, nothing negative to say about Diddy and claimed that his personal experience doesn't match the public allegations against the man.

[Usher]

This might be a bit controversial, but in the same way I think many people choose to look past the reality of what our country is, the standards that we now stand on. We can't ignore the reality of the history. But in many ways, I think certain people are prosecuted and maybe not recognized for the greatness, you know, that they offer. I don't have anything negative to say about Sean Combs because my experience was not what the world has seen and how he's been misrepresented. I'm not saying that every man is perfect. I'm not saying that all of us don't have flaws. But I can't, with any sense of humanity, not recognize the valuable contributions that this man made for us as black entrepreneurs, for us as businessmen, for us as people who transition culture and ideas into something that's tangible and becomes business. So many people benefited from what he created, and I acknowledge that. And that's why I see him, his legacy.

[Donnie]

You told Shannon Sharpe you learned a lot about business during that era.

[Usher]

Absolutely.

[Donnie]

What'd you learn?

[Usher]

Puff was a mentor, bum. But he was like a. You know, you have that really, really hard teacher, you know, but you're watching something in real time. You know, I think that the idea of the level of discipline that came with that time in business, especially in an era that was trying to prove itself culturally in hip hop. Now, you can't turn on the television and not see the influence of hip hop.

[Donnie]

That's right.

[Usher]

But the people who actually made that appropriate and other forefathers are people like Sean Combs. And not just in the great times that they had musically, but in the idea of being able to find ways to monetize culture and create something that was not just black or white. It was colorless, it was green. That's who I see that man as. And that's what I choose to remember. I put respect on his name because I realized that, you know, what I learned as a businessman before I even understood what business was, came as a result of seeing the incredible things that he was able to do and the way that he positioned himself as a businessman. There are trials and tribulations that come with the pressures of success and power, but what we choose to do with it is what I hope that you see with me and hopefully all the people that I'm involved with. Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He said, but what you choose to do with it. Well, what did he do with his power? What did he do with his money? Two things can be true. He might have mentored you. You might have learned business for him from him, but what else did he do with his power and his money? He was a monster. He was an abuser. And I guess similar into the way that you talked about Jay Z as a capitalist and he talked about his personal experience. And that doesn't change that it's a messed up system. I guess that same logic applies to Usher here in the sense that you might have had a certain experience with Diddy, but it doesn't change the other system that existed within Diddy land as well. And that has come from evidence, that has come from a jury, that a jury's verdict, that has come from testimony and stories of countless women. And I don't. I. I'm not shocked, which is sad. And I'm not surprised that I'm seeing an usher take up for him. But I will never understand how you can totally dismiss the other side of it. I'll never understand how you can revere somebody so much that you can't acknowledge the bad side of him. They did so much good for you that it waters down or makes the other side disappear. And I'm thinking of the person that I revere the most. And if I still learned that there was this other side to him, I couldn't see it another way. Maybe because I'm a woman, I don't know. But I will say this is all I'm gonna say because this is so disappointing and the thing speaks for itself. But you know why Usher said this? Usher said this publicly because he knows it won't impact him. Usher can say this and it won't have any bearing on who Usher is as an artist. It won't affect his pocket. It probably won't even affect the image that people have of him. And he knows he can get away with saying this.

[Van Lathan Jr]

So I think I have an understand. I think I understand celebrity.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Not saying that you don't. And it's one of the things that, like I continuously try to get people to do on the podcast is understand celebrity. The last thing that you said, so they can't. The last thing that you said, it's not going to hurt Usher. Nothing's going to hurt Usher in the long term. Unless there was a similar situation to like, Usher has done what he's done for like so long. And it's the way people are. Usher has done. We've known Usher since usher was like 14, 15 year old guy. Watch Usher, trials and tribulations, all kinds of different stuff. It would take a lot to take Usher out of his perch. And also long after Usher is gone, the music will live on. The music will. The shows will live on. Man, this whole thing that we talk about all the time, it's very sticky because memories are sticky. And if you have good feelings to orient memories around, they're even stickier. And talent is such a commodity amongst human beings. Tell you how I understand celebrity. I always talk about like the comment section autopsy. So I just keep telling you guys to do it again. Celebrity does something and it's wrong. Go into the comment section and look at the responses of the people with the blue checks and then look at the responses from the people who don't have them. The people in the blue checks or the people with the blue checks are going to have responses. Hey, keep your head up. This too shall pass. We with you. Love you, bro. Call me all of that stuff now. A lot of people think that those people have those responses because they've completely surrendered their humanity and their sense of morals. I do not believe that is why they have those responses. I believe they have those responses because of identity. What you see yourself as and what you see the rest of the people that you share your society with as. Now remember what being a celebrity is. Being a celebrity is not going to Ralph's anymore. You don't do that. Got different routes. Being a celebrity means I don't go to the beach that you go to. I go to a different beach. I don't go to the restaurant on the night that you go to it. I go, I might go to the same club, but I'm in a different place. Celebrity is a group of people who say we have a different set of standards, not just for our lives, but overall. And if something happens, we're kind of prone to close ranks. Close ranks. Never know when it's going to be you, when it's going to be your turn, when people are gonna find out what you did or how you were or the thing that you fucked up on. So because of that, an attack on one of them sometimes feels like an attack on all of them. This one is actually exacerbated because of the personal relationship that Usher and Dee Dee have had. But when you watch and then also all of these people like to that they know each other. So if you see somebody that's done something fucking crazy and you don't know them, shit, we fall into that. Like when you see somebody that has done something crazy and you don't know them and you go, man, I done hung out with their kids, I done been around they mama. I done been at a table with everybody eating. I done been down on my luck, they done gave me an opportunity. My underlying thesis for all of it when it comes to this part of it is the only thing that people can do is set a standard and make the famous and wealthy people adhere to it. That's your only move. So if you don't like something, if you think something is wrong, if you rely on celebrities and people who are insulated from the real world to make the rules, they're going to make rules that benefit them. The only way to deal with this is to take that power and say, we don't like this and we're not gonna give you God status. It's like the book and the show American Gods. In that show, the gods only have power if. Neil Gaiman, another person that fucked himself that, you know, was a fucking creep. See what I'm saying? In that show, in that book, the gods only have power if people believe in them. So the fight in that book is between the old gods, Odin, Thor, all of those, and the new gods, the new gods, which are technology and the Internet and fame and all of that stuff, that's the schism. Because in that story, the gods only have power if you believe in them. And that's up when people see stuff like this and they go, hey, we not trying to live in a world where people can act with impunity. And then we gotta have a conversation about how many number one records they had and what they did for the business world. Last thing I'll say before we get to the ladies. I watched something that shocked the fuck out of me, and I had never seen it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What was that?

[Van Lathan Jr]

And I don't see how I did not see this. This conversation about Usher took place on Twitter. And then someone. And I would love to give this Twitter handle. I would love to give them credit right now. Someone said that they go, KRS1, pioneering hip hop artists. Look at our productions. KRS1 once said that African Bambaata, who is as big of a pioneer in hip hop as you can possibly get, KRS1 says African Bambada invented the whole fucking thing. He goes, KRS1 said that Africa Bamba should not be held accountable and was infallible for the accusations against him. I'm sure you're aware of the accusations against African Bambada. A bunch of different people, young men, have said that African Bambada took advantage of them, sexually assaulted them when they were kids, molested them, sexually assaulted, molested them when they were kids, raped them when they were kids. Bunch of different guys have said this. And I was like, that can't be true, guys. Y' all be gonna be pissed off at me. I missed this. I was at TMZ. I was like. And I watched this interview with KRS1 saying that African Bombada should be in fallible. He used the word infallible, that our leaders should be infallible, that Africa Bambaata is too important to hip hop to in any way re examine his legacy because of the Zulu nation. He invented hip hop, all of that stuff. And I don't know if since this was like 2016, I don't know if there's been more about this. I went back and watched it. I actually had to pull the car over. I was like, yo, what the fuck? I was like. I was like. I was legitimately, y'. All. I know I've Mr. I see everything. I missed this one. And I'm like, yo. And then. Made sense to me. Made sense to me. The only thing people can do in that situation is like, nah. African ba ba da na Usher, nah, whoever. We not fucking with that. But it's Going to be you? Yeah, because like I told you before, Puff is going to get out of jail. There's going to be a party, there's going to be an interview series, there's going to be a whole deal. And in the space of one year, Puff will have regained a lot of the standing he had before he went in.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Of course, that's why I said Usher knew he could say it. Of course I'm pointing to when I say none of it will be touched. It is due to his celebrity. And when I saw this, I thought about the conversation we had and you saying that. And I thought, this is planting the seeds. You're already trying to get people to think of this in a different way. And to be very honest with you, I don't even know how many people saw this interview to respond to it or saw the back and forth on social media regarding it. This is a Forbes interview, but Usher is planting seeds. And I saw it and I wasn't shocked because we see this all the time where celebrities have each other's back. They separate themselves. It's as if they do enough to. Where they almost become godlike. And the bad that they do, it doesn't mean anything because they've done so much and been so influential in society. But I. That's why I'm not shocked. I'm disappointed. But like.

[Van Lathan Jr]

But I mean, be honest with you. That's not gonna stop you from fucking with Usher, right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, what am I gonna do? I get it.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

What do you mean?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, am I right? I see it now, but that's me, how I respond. Like, if I wouldn't go run to an Usher concert.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not putting a cherry in my mouth or whatever it is that Usher does at his concerts. I'm not doing all of that. I think I'm gonna think about this. This stuff, it impacts me. Maybe cause it's my age. Maybe because we're so tapped in and we're talking about it. Maybe. I don't know. But it does impact me.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah. I just think, number one, I look at you different.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is like also. Sorry, what'd you say? No, no, no, no. It's just also like. I don't wanna say I get an ick, but I look at you as less of a man. Oh, I really do. I really do. Like, you fucking know this shit is wrong. Let's just be honest. You know it's wrong. You know, but you're looking at him in a different way for whatever reason. It could be because like you said, they're on a different level. And it could happen to me or it could happen to somebody else. So like, we can't all go in because, you know, we, we have to protect whatever this is. But like, you're not stupid. You know it's wrong. And the fact that you just can't say it. You could equally say, I know him differently. He means a lot to me. He did this for me. I've known him since I'm a kid. It's really hard for me to hear the stuff that he's saying. And my heart goes out to the women who have suffered at the hands of him. Like, that's wrong. I saw the video with Cassie. I saw him beat the shit out of her and drag her by the hair into the room. But the fact that you can't call it out, I'm looking at you as less of a man. I'm sorry.

[Van Lathan Jr]

In that situation, I will say this. First of all, that was a good sit down with Usher. It was a great interview, right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm sure it was.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I watched the whole thing. But also in that. I wonder what Usher would have said

[Rachel Lindsay]

if a woman had been interviewing him.

[Van Lathan Jr]

No. Well, that's also interesting. But you know, I don't think about women in positions of power or.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I didn't put that on you.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Come on, a woman, two women talking. What is this, the Golden Girls?

[Rachel Lindsay]

He would. Well, I wouldn't say that, but like

[Van Lathan Jr]

I totally alluded from Beauty and Black coming up next. That's good enough. Like, come on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But like that interviewer should have. And maybe he wasn't allowed to, who knows? But he should have. There should have been follow ups and it shouldn't have been about business.

[Van Lathan Jr]

But in that situation, it would have been interesting to know what Usher would have said if he would have been directly asked about the cast video. Like directly asked. It's possible he's too close, he has too long running relationship for Diddy for his actual feelings for Diddy to ever change. Like, if it's like, you know, you know what I mean, that's possible. But speaking to powerful people and how they set up their life to exploit, harm and abuse people, once again, that's a conversation. It forces you to step out of your own experience and have a conversation about a grander experience and people who might be more vulnerable to that type of thing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I just don't understand how people can't hold two truths. Nobody's telling you to not remember the good that he's done in your life. Nobody's saying that also, just be quiet. If you can't. If you can't do. If you can't just shut. Just don't say anything.

[Van Lathan Jr]

But you keep quiet. But even that right there would have been.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's better than this.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I know, but it would have been like, Usher refuses to. You know, this is the same thing. Well, it's just like, you gotta be clear. You gotta. But look, as far as I'm concerned, once again, this is why I like to. As far as I'm concerned, this is why having conversations about these things in a grander scale is the way to go. Because you get back to the point that what people. Whatever. I've already said it. You say, Usher's not a man. You don't wanna watch him skate.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I look at it. I look at him as less. I didn't say he was not a man. But the fact that, whatever, I don't want to be.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I TMZ'd you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is that what y' all did? So you just miscategorized my words?

[Van Lathan Jr]

What are you talking about? I wrote headlines at tmz and people were like, man, there's not enough conflict in that headline.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm like, oh, so funny. I saw Page Six picks up our conversation about Taylor, Frankie, Paul, and who

[Van Lathan Jr]

did Page Six fuck?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm talking. And you know how I was, like, a white felon? They said that. I said in, like, in the comments. So I guess this is what y' all do in these type of publications, or did. Did, did in these publications. It was like, she says she. She was a violent felon or like a violent criminal. And I was like. I don't even use the word violent, but cool. All right, so that's what y' all think.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I didn't say that we're gonna start doing something where.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But it was domestic violence.

[Van Lathan Jr]

You gave me, like, TMZ a headline, and I wasn't even the best. Like, people know in the office who's the best. But, like, in that situation, when you said that, like, this is the headline now, what I don't know is how I would attribute you. Cause I think you could just be Rachel Lindsay. In the past, I would have been like Bachelorette Rachel Lindsay. I would orient the audience to the reason why what you said matters.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Van Lathan Jr]

You don't have to do that for everybody. But sometimes it's like. Like, if you. LeBron James. I put LeBron James. But if you, like, I don't know, if you. Jared Vanderbilt, shout out to Vando, then I will go NBA star Jarred Vanderbilt. First thing to do, orient the people to who's saying this. Secondly, take the most incendiary part of it, big part of the headline. So it'd be like, Rachel Lindsay, Usher is not a man. Damn, nigga, I win. What the fuck?

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's not

[Van Lathan Jr]

Rachel Lindsay. Oh, maybe not that. Because I got you. I got a quote from you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Ah, this is it. This is better. Cause I got a quote from you. I wouldn't use the quote. Cause the quote is not going quite far enough.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Rachel Lindsay questions Usher's manhood.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Wow. Ladies and gentlemen, that is nine years of TMZ right there. That's nine years.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Like, this is the.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's sick, man.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Like, Rachel Lindsay questions Usher's manhood over Diddy defense. I'm at the top of the board.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm actually not mad at it.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I'm at the top of the board. And then this, this way the story goes. Hey, hey. Bricks, shout out to my man. Bricks. Shout out to John. Bricks. By the way, Bricks, I need a gallery of Usher. I need Usher on the beach. I need Usher. We need as many clicks as we can get. We gotta put Usher's interview in there. All this gotta happen in five minutes. We gotta put Usher's interview in there. Bricks gotta cut the gallery. We gotta put a video of Usher performing at the Super Bowl. Just cuz send people back to that story, the whole thing. I'm not gonna do 80 words. I'm probably gonna do about 120 words. I need to get this up in about five to 10 minutes because everybody's got their own thing. Boom. Link it. Send it out up on the site. We're going to the top of the board.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Fan.

[Van Lathan Jr]

What?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Fan. Come on. You miss it?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Nah.

[Donnie]

Look at the glitter.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You miss it?

[Van Lathan Jr]

I don't miss it. I don't miss it. But. But I will say though, I don't miss it at all. I don't. The hours were brutal. Like, you go into a room, people like, here come. I don't miss it at all. But what I will say though, he

[Rachel Lindsay]

just got a second win.

[Van Lathan Jr]

What I will say.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Just a little bit.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Just a little bit. No, I don't miss it. But what I will say though is the challenge of crafting, that was something that they could get you hooked on. I don't miss it though. I really don't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'll let y' all be the judge.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I. I don't miss it. I don't miss it. Boom. But it was fast moving.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Van Lathan desires to Be back at tmc.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Nah, that's not. That's not good.

[Donnie]

Greatest nine years of my life.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Greatest nine years of my life.

[Van Lathan Jr]

You'll get sued. You're.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like I said, desires. I didn't quote. Yeah, like I used a verb there. Does he desire? How would you write it?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Van Lathan still has a lust for TMZ newsroom.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Nine years later. Still has all.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I see that or not.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Nine years later.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Like, get him. Lust, sex, money, greed. Fuck you, you're dead. The whole thing, like, that's. Van Lathan has a lust. Like something like that. Like, big for TMZ newsroom. Then 80 words straight to the video.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Fantasizes about his days back.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Fantasy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Another one fantasizes. Van fantasizes. Fantasizes about TMZ years. Yeah, a big.

[Van Lathan Jr]

You gotta.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Hi, Harvey.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Nah, see, we got the ladies from being Rachel. We got the. We got the ladies from Beauty in Black. Taylor and Crystal coming on. They both from Houston. One of them is an AKA we talked about the show. We talked about spring break.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We talked about spring break. We talked about Van's possible future in the Tyler Perry universe.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Man, put a fat nigga on there. It's a lot of muscles. I don't see enough male tits. I'm ready.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Donnie]

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[Van Lathan Jr]

Fuck it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Now, I bet the people are too.

[Van Lathan Jr]

I bet they wanna see it. You know what I'm saying? So we'll get to this interview on the other side of this brief.

[Rachel Lindsay]

All right. Joining us now on Higher Learning. This is a treat. We told y' all we were going to be talking Beauty in Black. And today we have Crystal Stewart, who is an American actress, model, and beauty queen. And we have Taylor Polidor Williams, who is. Well, both of you guys are from Houston, I just might add Texas in the house.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right. And Taylor, actress, filmmaker, and a graduate hbcu. You'll love this.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah, of course.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I have to say this, aka we have a lot of D9 talk here, Taylor. A lot of D9 talk.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

I love that.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Which one of you guys is the aka? Just so I know I am you, sister. You the AKA Coach. Just let me check back in with you every now and again, because there are things that I know that Rachel tries to gaslight me about different aspects. Culturally. She acts like there's no. Like, there's no rivalry. Like y'. All. Don't y'. All. But so she's a Delta. I know that there's a little thing here, and I'm gonna check back in every once in a while to make sure that you guys are getting along.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you. It's a whole thing. Wait, What? It's all D9 love. It's all D9 love.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah. Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But he loves to do this. Okay, so we have the stars from Beauty in Black, which, first off, I want to say I love seeing you guys here and smiling because you guys are so intense on the show they play. It's such intense characters, and you have these beautiful smiles. I'm so glad you're here on Higher Learning. I just want to start. We were talking offline. The show is number one on Netflix. It always is. Whenever it drops, the ratings show that the show is a success, but also just so many people are talking about it. What do you think? Why do you think people connect so strongly with your show? And this is for either one of you.

[Crystal Stewart]

Go, Taylor. Go for it. I feel like you want to.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

I personally think that people are connecting. And, you know, when you talk about it's number one or, like, the global reach that the show is having, I think that it's because, one, we have to discuss the Tyler Perry effect. He has an extremely strong and loyal fan base, but I think we've even broken past that because the themes that are in it are just so entertaining, and it grabs people, and they want to stick with it. And they want what's happening. And it like takes all the best of all the dramas Sophie feels and combines them into one. And I think that's why it's so popular right now.

[Crystal Stewart]

I agree. That's why the cliffhangers after each episode, it just keeps. Keeps them going and binging. Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr]

So Rachel told me we were doing something. We're gonna start covering the show here on Higher Learning. Right? We're gonna start covering the show. The ins and outs. Yeah, we're gonna start covering the show.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I brought Van in. Cause I'm so tapped in.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah, she's very tapped in. But the way she sold the show is the way that a lot of people sell it is sometimes you can't believe what you're watching. Right. That's kind of like the way she sold it for you guys. Have you ever got the pages and been like, I can't believe we gonna do this, or have you ever been. Never. Yes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

100%.

[Crystal Stewart]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Okay.

[Crystal Stewart]

100%, right? Oh, yeah. In the beginning for me, you know, getting the script and auditioning for it, I come out and I'm very nice at the convention center and welcoming everyone. I'm like, oh, I can do this. This is mine. And then you flip the script. I'm like. I'm saying I'm cussing out people and kicking them out my car and all these one liners. So, yeah, we were always shocked. So

[Rachel Lindsay]

I've seen other Tyler Perry shows, but this show is one that I'm like, hooked in. Cause like, Taylor, you were saying how it's the Tyler Perry effect, but this show reaches new audiences. Someone like me. The show has sparked controversy just for different reasons. But I want to know what you guys thought about, because I don't know if this is what's drawing people into. But when I was describing it to Van, when I first started watching, I'm like, this is the most explicit I've ever seen Tyler Perry do. I mean, he wrote it, directed, created it, all the things for you guys. How do you process some of the. The fodder that's online with some of these really explicit scenes?

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

That's a good question, because I don't think I've ever had that question about the explicit nature of the show.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It goes down.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

I mean, so one, I think it's two different things. It's layered. The processing of the explicit nature of the show as an actor and myself. That's the justifications, I feel like, of the work that we did as actors. Like, why Are these people so heinous and crazy to each other but processing the conversations online, I personally don't engage with them. That's not something that I feel like is my duty to chime in on. I appreciate the people watching. I appreciate the conversations. Good, bad, impotent, between. But it's kind of like once that is out in the world, that is for them. And like, I will see stuff and I hear stuff or see random things, but I'm like, I can't even chime in on that. And I love chiming in on, like, I'm a kid of the Internet, so it's very hard for me. But I've had to change my relationship with the Internet since the show came out because I have to have a point of like, ah, that's for them, not for me.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Do you think any of the criticism is fair? Do you think. Can you see when people. Some of the stuff? Cause it's not just this particular show. There's sometimes Tyler Perry himself and the way that he makes shows and the way that he gets into stuff. People talk about it and, you know, we talked about straw on here. It's not always celebratory of what he does. Do you see where people are coming from or do you think it's just a bunch of hate and Internet talk?

[Crystal Stewart]

I think it's hating Taylor. I think they're hating myself.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

You know, support or hate any project. So I think people are entitled to their own opinions. You could feel however you feel about it. Watch it. Don't watch it again. I. I don't know. I. That's a very personal. It's an opinion.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

Sees art differently, so welcome the conversation. That's what it's for.

[Crystal Stewart]

Yeah, I'm a bit lost for words because like Taylor said, I don't quite read the comments because I'm like, if you read the good, you have to read the bad as well. So I just stay away from it and stay on my high of being number one, you know, on Netflix. But yeah, Tyler sometimes get these hits, but he's a strong guy and has wonderful shows. His shows are always number one. His movies are always number one. And I think it'll continue that way.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

I also feel like, to the conversation about, like, some of the criticisms, I think that it's very important. Like, even if we're looking at some of these things, I know especially in season one, like with the human trafficking theme, there were so many women who were messaging me. Like, I. I see myself in Kimmy. I've been in this situation. So it's like maybe to some people it seems like, oh, this is far fetched. There's certain criticisms for the images that are out, but there are people that do resonate with, with some of the themes that are going on. Obviously we're in a heightened sense, but who am I to say that it's too far, it's too much. I don't judge it that way.

[Van Lathan Jr]

You know, Interesting. I don't want to put you guys in a clique here, but I have to ask, is the criticism ever racist? And let me tell you what I mean by that. I popped in and was watching. This actually happened. If people are going to. I actually saw this, this happened on television. So I was watching a show and it was of this bigger guy. He was a fat guy who's a bigger guy. He's having drinks with these girls. The girls ran out on the tap. They ran out on the tap. So then the fat guy went to his plastic surgeon, killed everybody in the plastic surgeon's office. Yeah, listen, what happened? He killed everybody in the plastic surgeon's office, went on a mass shooting spree, then was about to kill the plastic surgeon. The plastic surgeon goes, no, don't kill me. I got one more thing that could make you beautiful. They then send a woman into him, he has sex with the woman, she gives him an std, the skin melts off of his face and he becomes beautiful. All of this, the beauty, the beauty show, it was totally ridiculously wild. I watched the whole thing and it was wild. And I don't see exactly the same type of criticism of some of the stuff that exists in the Ryan Murphy verse. And some of this other stuff that I watch I happen to catch as I see in you guys show. Do you ever think that there is a specific feeling that people might have about some of the things because he's black and you guys are black and sometimes we hold on a little too close.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

Absolutely.

[Crystal Stewart]

Yeah.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

So like some of the themes, I think there are very similar intersections of Ryan Murphy's themes and what goes on at least on our show in the TPS world. And I think it is rooted in racism and some of it is in self perception of black representation on screen. And I know that's something that I feel like as black people I deal with it too. Like is this an image that we should have out on in the world for the world to see? And you know, that's complicated. It's very layered and nuanced. And I think the criticisms, some of the criticisms are because it is a black show and a black man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You know, I think some. And I'm wondering what you guys think about this. I think some of the criticism, particularly with Tyler Perry doing it and what this show. The way this show is, is I think people also relate Tyler Perry to religion. And so when you see a show like this that, you know, you're dealing with very heavy themes, you know, a lot of it is around a strip club in the parking lot and in, you know, within the club. I think sometimes that's also where the criticism comes from, because I think people have this perception about Tyler Perry. And then maybe you watch something like this or. What was the movie we discussed with the uncle? I can't think of the title right now where it's a little bit more. Thank you. Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Joe's College Road Trip.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Joe's College Road Trip. We watched that, too. That. I think maybe that's where some of this is coming from. Do you guys think that it's rooted in that as well?

[Crystal Stewart]

Yeah, well, I think they put him in one lane. You know, when he originally started out, it was, you know, theater, and his roots was based. Was religion, was Christianity. And when he tried to steer away from that, I feel that's when the criticism came. And as he got bigger and grew more, there was more and more criticism, you know, after that. So, yeah, no, I feel he started in that lane, and some people didn't want or see him getting out of that lane of religion.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But we still watching whatever lane is in.

[Crystal Stewart]

You're right. We're still watching religious or not.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right, Rachel?

[Van Lathan Jr]

So.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

But I think that's kind of the allure, though. Even though that is his fan base or what. His fan base was rooted in the church. The church has a lot of under. I mean, the Bible is one of the most salacious books I've read.

[Crystal Stewart]

I read it.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

So, you know, you have these people that present like, oh, I don't want to watch these things or support these things. But like you said, they are watching.

[Crystal Stewart]

Yeah, they're watching it.

[Van Lathan Jr]

So they're watching the. The response to the show. Like, first of all, we should say this being number one on Netflix is. That's not a small feat. That is a gigantic feat that makes you a legitimate television star. Like, legitimately being number one on Netflix. The biggest streamline. Get the smile. That's what I'm saying. You know? You know, in the back of your mind, you know, I see you smiling, sister. Y' all know y' all are legitimate TV stars. How has your Life changed due to the success of this show. Ooh. Either one of y', all, I think

[Crystal Stewart]

going places for me right now. I feel like I live two different lives. I live between LA and Houston. So in la, it's events and red carpets and all these great, fabulous, glamorous things and star, whatever you want to call it. And at home, I'm mom, you know, with my two little kids and I kind of just focus on them and sometimes, honestly I forget. So I'm going to the store to, you know, pick up a toy with my kids and someone stops me for a picture and I'm like, oh, shoot. Yeah, you know, like. Yeah, yeah. And then another person and then my son's like, mommy, why are they taking pictures with you? You know, And I'm like, you know, I'm like, you know, buddy, mommy's on. She plays on television and they, they like me on television. Trying to explain this, you know, to a five year old. So it's been life changing, but it's still something I'm adjusting to as far as moving back and forth and with the family as well.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

Yeah, it's definitely been life changing. It's something that I have dreamed about for a very long time to have a project that kind of thrust you into the spotlight, to have access to continue acting and to keep telling stories. But I don't think anything can really prepare you for that many people seeing your face or knowing your face. So like Crystal said, it's kind of like a disassociation. Like you see be number one, but like, it's really hard to conceptualize billions of minutes watched of a show and like people recognizing you to the point, like she said, when you're out and I'll forget, I'm just moving about. They like normal. And you see people smiling at you and wait, like, wow, everyone's so nice here. And then someone hit me like, oh, that's, that's why. Hi, I'm Taylor.

[Crystal Stewart]

And then this disassociating the character, right? So I'm playing this horribly mean person, which I would think of completely opposite from that. So at first I'm like, okay, how are these people going to react to me? They're going to try to run me over. But fortunately it's been, I think, a love hate relationship for Mallory.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So, yeah, that's definitely different than the characters. I was going to ask you that because, I mean, we're talking, we talk about the Tyler Perry effect, but obviously the show is successful because, because of what you guys bring to your Characters. It's what. Whether. Like, Taylor, you were talking about how people write you and say that they connect with. With Kimmy and they've been through a situation. I'm sure, Crystal, you. You feel the same thing. How do you separate.

[Crystal Stewart]

Because one of the things that you said, Mallory.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They don't say anything about Mallory.

[Crystal Stewart]

I'm just kidding.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, you're. You're running a company. You're running. I mean, like, you're running without giving too much away. Yeah. Like you're running a company. You have to hold your own. You built. Like, you talk about your past to where you are now. It's, like, totally different, both of you. But, like, how do you talk about being recognized? And, you know, people see you on screen one way, but how do you separate your personal identity when you're preparing for some of these emotional and physically vulnerable scenes? How do you separate your personal identity from your character?

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

I completely separate. I'm not a method actor. That's not something that I. That doesn't serve me to kind of like, oh, I have to commit and be in this moment. I think all the preparation before analyzing the script, I journal to learn and know who this person is and justify the actions that they do. And then on set, I'm completely there. I give it my all. And when we rap, I come back to myself. I listen to music, I take the makeup off, and I leave it there. So for me, I do feel a very clear, distinct difference between Taylor and Kimmy. And I feel like I have to. Like, that's one of my biggest things. I want to disappear in every role. It's not anymore. So that there's a very clear difference.

[Crystal Stewart]

Well, my process is a little different. I go bathe in some holy water. It's killing and Jim Crow pro lines and all that stuff that I give. So I go detox after Mallory. It's something because I don't really curse in real life, to be honest. And sometimes I even slip up. I don't really. Yeah, I don't. And like, one time I slipped up and said, darn. And they're like, cut. They're like, crystal, Mallory, she's not going to say darn. They're like, what are you. You know, what are you doing? So, no, like, not at all. So it's a complete difference for me. And again, like Taylor said, I go in and do the job and. And really sulking. Who Mallory is and why is she. That was something I had to come to. I was like, why is she so mean?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Why is Mallory so mean.

[Crystal Stewart]

Why is she mean? You know, where is this coming from? So once I found that, I was able to jump into Mallory and then jump right out after they yell cut.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Have you found that? Because when I'm watching these shows with my mama, it's always the malorie types that my mama gravitates to. And that's because she can't be Mallory in real life. She has to be affable and accessible, and she has to, you know, dry everybody's tears and stuff like that. And every once in a while, she would just be like. She like to say, fuck you, bitch. And my mom curses, but, like, not to people who. You know what I mean. So. Do you ever feel it liberating to be able to get on there and get that side of you off, since you're, you know.

[Crystal Stewart]

Oh, shoot. Oh, yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr]

There you go. Almost got you. That's why I wanted you to.

[Crystal Stewart]

Almost.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Almost got me.

[Crystal Stewart]

Yeah. No, no, really, it can be. It was almost therapeutic for me. It was two years ago. I went through a very traumatic situation in life in general, and I felt I handled it pretty well. But when I have, like, the crime scene, to be honest, was really something. Me letting out something that was deep down inside of me, doing that traumatic experience and being able to release that cry out, you know, friends that really know me there was, like, I think that was therapeutic for you. And I was like, actually, it really was. So. But yeah, I do have people reaching out, saying, like, how do I. You know, I wish I was more like Mallory. And I think they just like her assertiveness. I don't know if it's the cursing or whatever, but how assertive and bold she is with her delivery. And she's not cutting any corners. And she means what she says.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Sometimes we don't wanna. But sometimes sisters don't wanna have to apologize. They just wanna get their shit off. And whatever happens, happens. We're gonna get to Reasonable Doubt in a second. Cause I know, Taylor, Reasonable Doubt, it's a big deal for you. And we're gonna talk about that. Before I get to that, I wanna ask y' all something about Houston. Cause I don't know if you guys have been seeing what's been going on down in Houston. Spring breakers took over y' all city like it was thongs. Titties is out. It looked like beauty and black. Houston looked like beauty and black. The spring breakers came down. They took over Houston. I saw Slim Thug. Slim Thug put up. Shout out to Slim Thug. He put up what his visions for new Houston that could engage the slim like he wanted. A man made beach. All kinds of stuff. We about to change Houston. It's about to be the spring break destination for every hood all over America. Mocha Fest, April 24 through 26 in Houston. I wanna know how y' all feel about that. How y' all feel about thongs, asses, titties, labias everywhere in Houston. What's the thought? It's just like beauty and black.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Beauty and black.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

I could give a politically correct answer, and I could give the answer that actually makes a lot of sense.

[Crystal Stewart]

Get that. Give that one. Give that one.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Okay.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

It was already there.

[Van Lathan Jr]

All of that was already there.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

Now, I blame Miami because a few years ago, they said, spring breakers do not come south. South beach do not come. Somewhere to go. And Houston is the best city in this country. Yeah.

[Crystal Stewart]

Yeah.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

It is friendly. You got some good food. The price is right. So I get why the kids want to come, but they. They. They need some rules and regulations.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah, what are those rules and regulations? Like, y'. All, y' all are welcoming other kids. This is good. Cause they gonna come to your crib like, so it is. What are the rules and regulations? What? Tell me. Tell me what they would be like. What?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like what are the rules and regulations?

[Crystal Stewart]

Reg, I feel there needs to be a. What is it? A time limit. So basically a cut off time, maybe, you know, 12:00am or something. To where?

[Rachel Lindsay]

12, 12 o'. Clock.

[Crystal Stewart]

Bring the th home. Crystal at 12 o'.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

Clock. These kids are out to the sun.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, like the strip, the after hour spots, the strip clubs. That's. That's so part of Houston. Some of the best strip clubs are in Houston.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

I think as long as they respect you can't mess with Texas. People have guns all around.

[Crystal Stewart]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't play with Texas.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

Be on your best behavior, because it is.

[Crystal Stewart]

You ain't playing in Texas now. You ain't act right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no, no. One last question for Beauty and Black. For me, you both are in wild. Some wild scenes. Just when I think, like, oh, they're done. Nothing more left. Something else happens that I couldn't even think would happen. Is there a scene? Well, one. What's the most wild scene you feel like you've done? Or a scene where you were reading it and you were like, I don't know if I could do this. This is a little too much for me.

[Crystal Stewart]

Ooh, a little too much.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

Oh, wow.

[Crystal Stewart]

For me, Malorie, nothing is too much. I think the. I had a Couple this season, a wild scene for me. I'm like, all of it was wild. I think I went from grabbing a cup of coffee. Cup of coffee to the whole, you know, the whole tub of coffee and pouring it on Felicia and Roy, I think that was. And then when the girls jumped in, that was probably my favorite scene for me from Valerie from this past season.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

That was wild for sure. But I feel like that was more fun. Cause that was vindication.

[Crystal Stewart]

That didn't happen.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

I feel like. I think the wildest one I have was back in season one when Kimmy killed the club owner, Delinda.

[Crystal Stewart]

Ah, she went Rambo.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

She lost it. I think that was pretty wild. Cause she blew her head up. We had pyrotechnics and all of that there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And then it ended. It just ended.

[Crystal Stewart]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was like, wait a minute. That's what I was like, okay, I'm tuned in for whatever they're bringing me. I've never seen a season in like that.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Next time y' all talk to Tyler, tell him he gotta represent for the fat brothers. Man, like, we could dance, too. Like, we could be in the strip club. I don't see any fat. I don't see any. I didn't see any titties on the other side. I didn't. Like, we. Like, we weren't well represented. So tell them to put some of the high BMI brothers out there. We gotta work, too. What has it been like working on Reasonable Doubt? Like, what? What has that been like for you? Like, yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Joining this new season.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Joining this new season. Working on it. Kerry Washington posted you like things are happening. Like, what has it been like working on that show? Shout out to Sean Holly. By the way,

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

it's been a great experience thus far. Like, I know they are keeping the plot and everything very much so under wraps. So I don't want to say too much, but I'm very honored to be there. It's going to be a great. A great season. What they have planned. They also announced that Megan Goode and Tank are on this season. So I can't say that much, but it gives all the drama everything that the show already had. But the team behind it, Ramla, and like you said, Carrie, just everybody there has been so welcoming. So I'm really happy to be there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Amazing. No? Yeah, yeah. You got. You've already been greenlit season three. We know it's coming. It's the final season, which I really hope that's not true because now it's like. It's almost like a soap I need it all the time. I need it every day. I need this to be a soap opera. What do you want? I know you can't give us what season three is, but what would you like to see? If this is really the final season, where would you like to see Kimmy go? Where would you like to see. To see Mallory go?

[Crystal Stewart]

Good question, Rachel. Where would I see?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I would.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

I would love for Ms. Kimmy to have some peace and joy. I know that's not what the show is about, but even if she could have just a little bit. A little bit of lightness to her day because she's been stressed since episode one.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Crystal Stewart]

Yeah. I think for Mallory, she would want to keep the reins in the company, you know, probably with her new counterparts, Kimmy, and, you know, the rest of the crew as well. But she's worked hard for the company to sustain it, to keep it up there to grow. I think she would want to keep that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. All right, well, we love the show, and we're so glad that you guys could come through. Thank you for being here. Tell everybody. I mean, we already said on Netflix, but just where they can follow you guys and everything that you're doing.

[Crystal Stewart]

Okay. You can find us Beauty and Black Crystal Stewart playing Mallory on Instagram at C R Y S T L E Stewart.

[Taylor Polidor Williams]

And I'm on Instagram. Aylorpolidor. P O L I D O R E. And I'm on TikTok, too, and Twitter, but Instagram and TikTok, I can't.

[Crystal Stewart]

TikTok.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah. I can't. Like, I found the limits, you know? That's how I knew I was un. I tried it. I can't do it, you know, but think. But tell Tyler what I said. Think about it, you know, Fat. Yeah.

[Crystal Stewart]

Tell them representation.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Yeah. You won't even see the thong on me. It'll completely disappear.

[Rachel Lindsay]

All right, thank you.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Thank you for joining us.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Congratulations to you both.

[Crystal Stewart]

Thank you so much for having us. Bye.

[Van Lathan Jr]

All right, guys, no more podcasts. We've ruined all our relationships.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What?

[Van Lathan Jr]

Jonta Austin about to hit me up. Shout out to Jonta and Brian Michael Cox and everybody in Atlanta. Shout out to all my people.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I love, man. If anybody's upset at the fact that I'll speak, I am disappointed about what Usher said.

[Van Lathan Jr]

No. What the fuck? I'm joking with them. They're my niggas. But I'm like. Like, they, like, that's all.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The thing speaks for itself.

[Van Lathan Jr]

It's the Lokesta Groover original gangster Hoover. That's man. Shout out Real Sama man. You're on your way, dog. Keep doing your thing. Take your think caps off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Laken Jr.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm Rachel Lynn Lindsay. Bye, guys.

[Donnie]

Before the music comes back, one idea. Between work and family, who has time

[Van Lathan Jr]

for long sports shows?

[Donnie]

Tick Tock gives you quick updates and highlights in seconds.

[Van Lathan Jr]

Easy to watch, easy to keep up.

[Donnie]

Download TikTok now.