Chris Harrison: The Return of Traditional Love, Epstein Update, and ICE at the Polls

Summary

Podcast Summary: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Chris Harrison: The Return of Traditional Love, Epstein Update, and ICE at the Polls
Release Date: February 6, 2026
Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. & Rachel Lindsay
Producer: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

This episode explores a wide array of current events and cultural conversations, from celebrity encounters and music debates to deep dives into Black identity, the Epstein scandal, U.S. immigration enforcement, political infighting, and the controversial return of Chris Harrison to reality TV. As always, Van and Rachel blend personal stories with sharp commentary, raw humor, and compelling analysis of the biggest issues at the intersection of Black culture, politics, and sports.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family Time, Sports, and Black Boston (00:11–04:02)

• Rachel shares her trip to a Mavericks game, her nephews’ court-side experience with Kyrie Irving, and notes how sports personalities’ reputations differ from headlines.
• Van reflects on Black culture in Boston, its unexpected comfort, and jests about the prevalence of Boston sports at The Ringer.

2. The Whitest Song Ever? Music and Identity (05:02–11:16)

• Van launches a spirited debate about the “whitest song ever,” landing on “Headstrong” by Trapt, critiquing its stylistic and cultural separation from Black musical influence.
• Rachel and Van debate genre boundaries and the difficulty of defining “whiteness” in music, with Rachel pushing back on Van’s assertion:
  • Van (07:29): “There’s nothing whiter than trying to do something that you think Black people will think is cool.”
  • Rachel (09:54): “It's like alternative rock, which feels different.”
• Side conversations include shout-outs to rising Black country act Shaboozi and the trials of Black artists navigating genre gatekeeping.

3. Shaboozi and Black/Immigrant Identity Debate (11:06–21:12)

• Shaboozi’s controversial comment that “immigrants built this country” sparked intense backlash from Black Americans, rekindling discourse on ADOS (American Descendants of Slavery), FBA (Foundational Black Americans), and Black coalition politics.
• Van recounts his personal journey reconciling pride in Black American heritage with internationalist perspectives.
  • Van (17:36): “The ADOS movement, the focus on the needs of Black Americans, specifically, it's a vital movement.”
  • Rachel notes historical erasure and the importance of naming Black Americans’ unique contributions.

4. Michael Jackson Biopic—Anticipation and Cultural Legacy (21:31–27:25)

• The hosts dissect the trailer for a new Michael Jackson biopic, expressing excitement for a holistic portrayal beyond “The Jacksons: An American Dream.”
• Memorable banter includes infamous Joe Jackson interview riffs, highlighting generational trauma and labor in Black families.

5. Epstein Files: Unpacking Power, Accountability, and the Cult of Elite Disregard (27:23–43:59)

• The team reacts to the DOJ’s release of 3 million new Epstein files, highlighting the concept of the “Epstein class”—elites complicit by association with, and tacit approval of, Epstein’s crimes.
  • Van (28:32): “[The Epstein class:] the structure of people that could know, be connected to, have any thought that that was happening or a possibility and did not have the moral courage to do something about it.”
  • Rachel spotlights gendered power dynamics and women’s disposability in elite circles.
• Frustration mounts over lack of criminal liability and the government’s mishandling of victim data.
  • Rachel (37:46): “It seems like they've caused even more damage for the very people who were hurt from this in the first place.”
• They debate whether public exposure is sufficient accountability, or simply “useful knowledge.”

6. ICE at the Polls, Democratic Weakness, and Calls for Abolition (43:38–58:43)

• Discussion centers on Steve Bannon’s claim that ICE will patrol polling stations, Trump’s talk of “nationalizing voting,” and Chuck Schumer’s tepid proposed reforms.
• Van and Rachel lambast centrist Democrats’ incrementalist tendencies, demanding abolition of ICE rather than mere “reform.”
  • Van (51:23): “Don’t you want to abolish ICE? Haven’t you seen how rotten and putrid the organization is?”
  • Rachel (56:00): “Of the bullet point list you had, which one would have prevented the deaths of anybody who’s died at the hands of ICE?”
• They warn against the normalization of state violence and incrementalism amid growing authoritarian threats.

7. Texas Politics: Talarico v. Crockett and Racialized Campaigns (60:03–79:09)

• Analysis of Texas House primary infighting, specifically James Talarico’s comment referring to Colin Allred as a “mediocre Black man” while praising Jasmine Crockett.
• Rachel calls out racial boundaries—“I don't ever want to hear a white man call a Black man mediocre”—while both agree conversation, not cancellation, is needed when politicians misstep.
• Larger themes: authenticity, coalition politics, the limits of culture and identity as political shields, and doing the hard work of policy analysis.

8. Chris Harrison’s “Traditional Love” Comeback—Culture Wars in Reality TV (80:02–94:25)

• Donnie reports Chris Harrison’s casting call for a new reality show seeking those interested in “traditional marriage,” coded as favoring conservative gender roles.
• Rachel, the franchise’s first Black Bachelorette, unpacks how “traditional love” operated on The Bachelor:
  • Rachel (85:52): "For 15 years, that show has showed you you have to look like this and kind of be a part of this type of culture to be able to find love..."
  • She remembers Harrison’s reluctance about diverse leads as business-driven, but says it perpetuated exclusion.
  • Van and Rachel debate the implications of this new platform, foreseeing both its marketability and its ideological underpinnings.

9. Quickfire Race & Culture Moments (104:25–end)

• Analysis of NFL rookie Tet McMillan saying the N-word on a livestream:
  • Rachel affirms there are “no exceptions”—non-Black people don’t get to use the word, regardless of cultural proximity.
  • Van points out how non-Black athletes may feel entitled due to their environment but emphasizes the need for accountability.
• Light banter on Super Bowl predictions, athlete party culture, and higher learning as a critique of institutional narratives.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Exchange | |------------|----------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 07:29 | Van | “There’s nothing whiter than trying to do something that you think Black people will think is cool.” | | 14:14 | Van | “Hey, look—to be real, just, you know, stand on your shit. Jelly Roll, if you don’t give a fuck, you don’t give a fuck.”| | 17:36 | Van | “The ADOS movement... it’s a vital movement.” | | 28:32 | Van | “He’s coined the term Epstein class... the class of people that would have knowingly had relationships with [Epstein].”| | 37:46 | Rachel | “They put these people out there in harm’s way and harm them even further than they’ve already been harmed.” | | 51:23 | Van | “Don’t you want to abolish ICE?” | | 56:00 | Rachel | “Which one of those [reforms] would have prevented the deaths of anybody who’s died at the hands of ICE?” | | 85:52 | Rachel | “For 15 years, that show has showed you you have to look like this and kind of be a part of this type of culture to be able to find love... until I came on.”| | 107:29 | Van | “[Tet] is not Black. So just... look, here’s the thing...” (on NFL rookie’s slur; direct call for apology) | | 109:17 | Rachel | “If I see Tet this weekend... I’m going to say, ‘What’s up, my [N-]?’” – tongue-in-cheek challenge |

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Family, Sports & Kyrie Irving: 00:11–04:02
• Music & “Whitest Song” Debate: 05:02–11:16
• Shaboozi, Black Identity & ADOS: 11:06–21:12
• Michael Jackson Biopic Chat: 21:31–27:25
• Epstein Files Discussion: 27:23–43:59
• ICE at the Polls & Dem Politics: 43:38–58:43
• Texas Politics – Talarico v. Crockett: 60:03–79:09
• Chris Harrison’s Return & Reality TV: 80:02–94:25
• Race Moments: NFL’s Tet & N-word: 104:25–109:10
• Wrap-up & Super Bowl Picks: 110:34–end

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Tone, Style & Takeaways

• Candid, Intimate: The hosts share personal stories and emotional responses while maintaining a conversational, “family at the cookout” feel.
• Humorous, Sharp: Banter and jokes abound but always in the service of deeper critique.
• Unapologetically Political: Willing to confront Democratic Party failures, right-wing threats, and failings within Black culture.
• Always Nuanced: The show refuses easy answers—whether debating racial identity, celebrity scandals, or major political strategies, they demand depth and accountability.

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For Listeners

If you missed this episode:

• You’ll gain a grounded understanding of recent headlines in Black pop culture, politics, and sports.
• You’ll hear thoughtful, sometimes heated back-and-forth on major controversies (from reality TV to immigration and the tangle of Black coalition politics).
• You’ll come away entertained, but also challenged to look deeper at both the problems and possibilities of American (and especially Black American) life today.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on it is Ivan.

[B]

Lathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[A]

What's up, Rachel?

[B]

Chilling. I just got back from Dallas.

[A]

You just got back.

[B]

I'm leaving again. And I'm leaving again.

[A]

Where you going?

[B]

I have a flight in like a couple hours. I'm going to San Francisco. I came back from Dallas.

[A]

Oh, that's right, you're going to.

[B]

Took my nephews to a Mavericks game, Memphis game. Did that with chime. It was great. It was so cute with chime there.

[A]

Even your. Even your family time is sponsored by QVC range.

[B]

I mean, listen, we're back on the hustle, but what an experience from. We were right there by the floor. My nephews got to go on the court right after Kyrie turned around and waved at them. It was really sweet.

[A]

Well, now you know what's going to happen to them now. That's it. Now they unvaccinated.

[B]

I said waved.

[A]

That's all it takes for them.

[B]

Whatever. It was so sweet.

[A]

Like, wait. He waved the Pfizer right out their body.

[B]

The man who worked there was like, oh, y' all want to talk to Kyrie? And just tapped him and he turned around and said hello. Like, so nice.

[A]

Great fucking guy. I don't really. I don't even know him. I know somebody who knows him. He's loyal, obviously. He's got a way that he views the world and all of that stuff that they tried to villainize Kai because Kai wouldn't go along and all of that stuff. I don't even know Kyrie Irving like that.

[B]

But that's why I want to tell that story because I do feel like he gets that. Like he could have easily. Like the worker knew he was nice enough to where he could tap him on the shoulder and he would turn around and say hi. Like that's clearly the person he is in the reputation. And it just made my nephew's day. Like they were. And then they're playing Boston. So when. When they left, we were right there where the players can't walk by and like they put on their little Tatum jerseys.

[A]

The Boston players.

[B]

Jason didn't sign it, but that's okay. Like, why would.

[A]

Jason's not going to sign it.

[B]

Why not?

[A]

Cuz he played for Boston and there were two little black kids. The Boston rubs off.

[B]

Wow. Yeah, don't do. They'll do that. Don't do that.

[A]

Boston rubs off. Jaylen Brown might have signed it.

[B]

Jaylen Brown gave them a little f.

[A]

A fist bump right See Jaylen Brown wearing Tatum jersey. Tatum's a nice guy, guys. Tatum's a nice guy. I'm sure he. It's fine. He's a big Kobe fan and all of that. I just.

[B]

Now he didn't see them.

[A]

I just. Be honest with you guys. I've worked at the Ringer for five years now. I'm sick of the Boston bullshit. Sick of it. I went to Boston and I had a lovely time there, and I felt guilty ever since. I had a great time in Boston.

[B]

I haven't really spent that much time.

[A]

Cool black people that talk kind of weird. You know what I mean? The black people in Boston. So it's interesting. Black Bostonians are a part of my youth.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

They are part of my youth. All of these black Bostonians. New Edition. Oh, they like, I'm. I'm. I'm singing like Black Boston when I'm a kid. I'm dancing. New Edition is underrated, bro. Fuck y'. All.

[B]

I don't think they're underrated at all.

[A]

No, no, they're underrated. They underrated.

[B]

They were huge. And people. And they're. They're on tour now. They're clearly not underrated. They can still sell out shows. Let me hear your ball. Let me hear your.

[A]

It's hard to.

[B]

I can't go for it.

[A]

I can't. It's hard to do it.

[B]

I wouldn't know the difference.

[A]

Like, I. The black Boston accent is tough, but, like, it's comforting. It was comforting to me for some reason. I don't know why.

[B]

I don't know why either. Shout out to the Thought Warriors I met in Dallas. Ambrisha.

[A]

Ambrisha.

[B]

I didn't get the other one's name. God damn, that's a tough four job interview. The other names. What? Stop. Shout out to the Thought Warriors I met. It was really nice for people to come up and say they listen to higher learning and they were excited to talk about the show. I love everybody. Now.

[A]

Straight up. That sounds like a Reddit name, but no, I loved Boston, so now I gotta take shots at the Boston. The Boston sports anytime I can. Jesus Christ. Seahawks. Please get it done, man. Please get it done.

[B]

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[A]

By the way, I did something the last couple of days. I made a very interesting discovery.

[B]

What was that?

[A]

I feel like Rachel. And can I. Before I even start with this, can I just ask you. Can I ask for a favor from.

[B]

You to be open?

[A]

Please, yes. Can I just ask for open mindedness?

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm excited to hear about the topic.

[A]

I found the whitest song in history.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So for the last, I'd say month, two months, I've been listening to nothing but rock music.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

My favorite rock band ever, System of a Down.

[B]

All right.

[A]

You know them?

[B]

Yes, I'm familiar. I don't know their music, but. What? Why?

[A]

So I've been boxing a lot more. Okay, so you want the rage, huh?

[B]

You want the rage from the music?

[A]

You know, it's like when I put on my. When I put on my hip hop playlist, you know, I'm boxing to the rhythm and stuff like that. But then every once in a while, Future comes on and future, like, changes my brain. Okay, when Future pops on or something like that. I don't want to be aggressive no more.

[B]

All right, fair.

[A]

I want to be the man.

[B]

Okay, all right.

[A]

But when I'm listening to System, they keep me mad for an hour straight, every song. System's just asking all, why don't presidents fight the wars? I'm like, yeah, why don't they fight the wars? You know, Anyway, but then Title changed and Title started suggesting other bands. Okay, that I never really listened to. I listened to a lot of rock music, but songs that I haven't heard in a long time. And the song came on by Trapped, Headstrong. Do you remember this record?

[B]

No.

[A]

Is Donnie here?

[C]

I am and I don't know this song.

[A]

You guys don't remember this song? It goes, back off. I'll take you on Headstrong. I'll take on anyone. You know that record?

[C]

Donnie, I know what you're talking about.

[A]

That's the whitest song that's ever been made.

[B]

Why?

[A]

A couple of reasons. Number one, the lyrics themselves. Back off. I'LL take you on. Headstrong. I'll take on anyone that's white. That's something that a white boy would say before a fight. Back off. I'll take you on. I'm Headstrong. I'll take on anyone. And then we will all laugh like, God damn, Trent, what's wrong with you? Calm down. You know what I'm saying? Then when I looked at the band, the way they spelled their name. Trapped.

[B]

Yeah, because I just spelled it wrong when I was trying to R, A.

[A]

P, T. That's whack. Okay?

[B]

Yeah, I spelled it wrong.

[A]

That's whack. There's nothing whiter than trying to do something that you think black people will think is cool.

[B]

Is that what you think they thought?

[A]

I think they think in Trapped, we're not going to spell it with two P's, we're going to spell it with a P and a T. Where's the band from?

[B]

Los Gatos.

[A]

Los Gatos. The. Is that I even. Look at that. Los Gatos, California. Look up Los Gatos.

[B]

Yeah. I thought you meant. What does it mean?

[A]

I mean. No, look it up. I'm telling you right now, this is the whitest song ever. It's a song that can go on. It's like a. It's a. It's a Madden song. It's a FIFA rock song. It's a song that can play at a commercial, right? It's. It's a Nickelback version, which, by the way, I like their records. It's a Nickelback version of a song. It's. It's upbeat. It's a song about take you on or take on anyone. It's some white. It has no traces of the black influence in rock and roll. Because I started looking for, like, what's the whitest song ever? What's the whitest song ever made? And you think you going to rock music, but. But you can't really do that because, like, especially like pre1985, you can still really hear the influence of the older. The. The genesis of rock in a lot of these people's music. Even in like Zeppelin and all of these people. When you listen to, like, Deep Purple, you can still hear it and then at some point it goes away. And Trapped, to me is when they came along. That is to me, when it got super white.

[B]

It's like alternative rock, which feels different.

[A]

But even the alternative rock, a lot of it to me, like the Foo Fighters. That's not. It's white, but it's still not super White. To me, that song Headstrong, I was trying to box to it. Couldn't do it.

[B]

Okay. Didn't do it for you. By the way, it's in Silicon Valley.

[A]

Yeah, I bet it is. I bet it's up there. I bet they feel trapped. I want to talk to them. I want to know what they were thinking when they made Headstrong. Y' all know this record? Y' all never heard that record before. Y' all okay for it. What's the whitest song ever to you? What's the white song ever made? What's the white song? One song ever made?

[B]

I. I mean, off the top of my head.

[A]

Give me one.

[B]

I'd have to go back to, like, I don't know, like some Frank Sinatra kind of stuff.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

Yeah. That's why.

[A]

Wrong. Too much soul. He's singing.

[B]

I don't think. I don't think soul when I think Frank. Just because they say blue eyed soul.

[A]

Does not mean blue eyes got a little soul to him.

[B]

I don't. I don't feel that.

[A]

Fly me to the moon.

[B]

I didn't say I don't. I don't. I don't like it. I mean, I'm not saying I don't like it. I just don't feel. That's not. Doesn't feel soul to me, but to me, that feels white.

[A]

What's the widest record ever made? What's the widest record ever?

[B]

I gotta think about this one.

[A]

You know why?

[B]

It's not Headstrong.

[A]

It's Trapped. Headstrong.

[B]

It's not Headstrong.

[A]

It is.

[B]

We'll.

[A]

We'll.

[B]

We'll figure this out.

[A]

It's Trapped. Headstrong. It is. It's. It's. That's the widest song. You can't find a song wider.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like even the song you Remind me by Nickelback, the guy's got a little bit too much.

[B]

So does it have to be in that genre? Because you keep picking songs from that.

[A]

It's probably going to be in that genre. The widest record ever made. Even. Even country people are going to be like country music. Nope. That can't be too influenced.

[B]

I wouldn't say country. I wouldn't. I wasn't even thinking of country.

[A]

By the way, shout out to Shaboozi.

[B]

Why?

[A]

He's finding out.

[B]

Isn't this not the first time, though?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Didn't he do something else where black people were like. You got that wrong.

[A]

I don't think that black people should have any problem with anything. That Shaboozies doing right now. I think it's interesting that Shabuzi is going through it. I tell you what, country music might radicalize Shaboozi. If they rall kalasha boozy, they got a problem on their hands.

[B]

It's black people who have a problem with what he said with.

[A]

About ice or what he said about.

[B]

About immigrants.

[A]

Oh, you talking about the FBA people? I was talking about the white people that were mad at him.

[B]

They were mad at him for what he said about.

[A]

Okay, so black people are mad at him, too. I haven't heard this.

[B]

Oh, that's where all the attention is. Black people are.

[A]

I only heard, like, Megyn Kelly and stuff like that.

[B]

Oh, no. Black people are very upset with Shabuzzi because he came out and said, immigrants built this country.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, I mean, immediately black people were like, now wait a minute. And he's, you know, he was like, my mom or my parents were immigrants. They built this country. So then he puts out a statement and he said, I did not mean. Obviously. I recognize that. I was caught up in the moment, in the emotion. I know. Black people also built this country. Black people still mad. The also got people as well.

[A]

Interesting. How do you feel about that?

[B]

When he said it, I immediately knew people were going to be upset because that's not true. So you're ignoring. And I think. I can't remember what it was. But we've talked about Shabuzzi before. It's not the first time he's done something. So it plays into this thought that. Or this preconceived notion that people have about Shabuzzi. So when he again neglected the black.

[A]

Community, black people were like, he neglected the black American community?

[B]

Yeah, the black American community. He neglected. People were like, see, it's when the wars start again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so they're like, oh, well, Shabuzzi's not like us. He's not black American. And so for me, I mean, I expected it. It's just like he put out a statement, he apologized, whatever. It doesn't move me that much. But I knew when he said also, that same group of people were still going to be upset because they don't look at it as an also because it looks like he's riding the fence and people think he's trying to please both sides. And it's like, just say, black people built this country. Black Americans built this country. That's what they just want him to say. It don't. Both sides. It don't be a jelly roll when you get up on the microphone. He wasn't that extreme. But Jelly Roll, gee golly, I'm just a country bumpkin.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I don't even have a phone. I don't pay attention.

[A]

I don't pay attention to the politics before.

[B]

I'm just trying to make music. I tell you what, I don't know anything.

[A]

And when I was in there, I never heard, what is a television? I don't. Is this on the television?

[B]

I don't know anything.

[A]

I don't. What. What y' all got going on over here? I'm Jelly Roll.

[B]

And the Internet posted pictures of him with Christy. No, of him with Trump. Of him. But he doesn't know it. I don't even know how to work a phone. I don't have social media.

[A]

Hey, look, to be real, just, you know, stand on your shit. Jelly Roll, if you don't give a fuck. You don't give a fuck. Fuck, yeah.

[B]

Just say you didn't want to know.

[A]

But, like, if you. If you say that you don't know, then people gonna go crazy. Something about the Shaboozi thing that's interesting to me, and maybe Shaboozi is watching this. Maybe he. He's wondering why he got jumped. You know what I mean by. By black people. I'll tell you guys something. You know, I've been having conversations. I did my friend Cord Jefferson's podcast, and we talked a little bit about, um. I want to talk about what the podcast is about, but it'll be out later on. Talk about, like, a. A phenomenon that happened in the 2010s and why black people responded to it in the way that they did. In my opinion, Shaboozi probably doesn't understand the specific harm of what it is that he said and why some black people responded to it. And I'll be honest with you about this. The way I look at the ADO's FBA movement is this. I think I'm an internationalist. I am. I've come to understand this about myself. A lot of the specific focus on my identity as a black American, for me, was based in the. The. The. The pain that I felt. Not even a pain that I felt. It's based on two things. Number one, the tradition of, like, who I am. Like, my ancestral home is Southern Louisiana. I can go to a grave and talked about this before and see all of my ancestors there, my ancestors who built their own tradition and all of that stuff. And I'm very proud of that. That's what I'M proud of. Very proud of that. Right.

[B]

You should be.

[A]

Thank you. And as I got older, I. We've talked about nigga wake up calls. I got nigga wake up calls from the black diaspora over and over again. I got nigga wake up calls when I first heard the term Akata. I got nigga wake up calls. When we were on that same Gmail thread, and one of the guys on the Gmail thread that we were talking about Obama and they said, well, it makes sense that his father is African. I was like, yeah, come on, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? I'm like, guys, we're going to do this. All right, Now I'll say this. I always diplomatic in having these conversations because I want the knowledge. I got to shout out Ashley Jackson, who is Jabril's younger sister, One of the most beautiful, intelligent, capable women. I've known Ashley since she was a young woman. She is now a beautiful family the whole night. Ashley used to be on there, giving them the business. Giving who our African brothers. That would be on this Gmail thread, going nuts on them. Sometimes it would make me feel a little uncomfortable. Some of the things she would say, back to the point, it's like, while I'm an internationalist, I believe in the dignity of the global south, the dignity of black people, and the strength of the Pan Africanist movement and all of that stuff, I gotta be honest with you, the ADOS movement, the focus on the needs of black Americans, specifically, it's a vital movement.

[B]

You said it's a vital movement.

[A]

It's a vital movement. Everybody had different jobs. As long as there's no problem with me looking at this diaspora as something. And the way that I aspire to be is look at it as being an inclusive understanding of worldwide blackness. The people that are saying, hey, there's a special set of circumstances that exist for black Americans here, and we have to stay laser focused on that. You're not just. I'm not. You're not gonna get me to talk shit about it.

[B]

No, no, no, I agree with you. Because I thought you were going to say something else with that, because I think the question is, when you have a shaboozi or someone who you know is not black American, do they have a responsibility when they take a microphone like Shabuzzi did in that moment? I think that's the question people have to ask themselves for how you're gonna take this situation. I think where we are right now in a country where our. Where they're trying to erase the history of us specifically in this country, or rewrite it or be revisionist, that you can't let a moment like that slide. Because to them, even though we know that Shabuzzi isn't a black American per se, they don't look at him that way. So when he gets on the microphone and he says that, it allows the narrative to be that we did not build this country. And so I agree with you that there is an importance to the movement because of what they're trying to do to us in regards to our history, even before that, but specifically now, it's even more heightened.

[A]

I agree. And I think a lot of my scholarship shout out to Peniel, Joseph and other people that a lot of my scholarship and my focus on black history, black power movement, the black intelligentsia that built the framework from which we defend ourselves. Black Americans are always at the forefront of freeing themselves. But there is a lot of integration in terms of people whose parents were from other places, who had lineage in the islands, who had lineage, you know, from Africa, who had. From all over the place. I'll say again, Black Americans and the technology and the culture that they invented, they freed themselves. But it was definitely huge contributions in thought and action from people from all over the diaspora. And I believe that there's strength in building and maintaining those bonds. But once again, as long as we can leave xenophobia and unnecessary divisiveness out of these conversations, which I'm not gonna go for, I think someone that says, hey, understanding that there's a worldwide structure of blackness is very important, but we have to make sure that these people and their specific contribution to. To this place, that somebody's keeping an eye on that. And when Shabuzzi says something like what he says, it probably feels very familiar. In the same way that America tries to erase whatever. I didn't even know you did that, Shaboozi. Damn. I was talking about them, and you fucked up, Shaboozi. I'm telling you, they gonna radicalize Shabuzzi, though. And then he gonna.

[B]

I tried to bring a guest on and talk about it, but.

[A]

Who was the guest? Oh, shit. Hell nah. See, you being messy. I know who the guest was.

[B]

To have a conversation about it. As someone in thought, it would be a robust, as you like to say, conversation. But, you know, I tell y' all something.

[A]

Rachel is better. Rachel is a real G. I'm just a big ball of emotion. Be in the morning crying and shit. Rachel moves in silence. Cause that move right there, look at you.

[B]

It would have been great.

[A]

It would have been great. Yeah, you fucking right.

[B]

All right, let's talk about a great black American.

[A]

Let's talk about him.

[B]

Johnny.

[C]

Michael Jackson. I'm assuming y' all are talking about Donnie.

[B]

Assuming. Let's go.

[C]

I'm just. We're all on the same page here. It's the trailer for the new movie Michael officially dropped. We had gotten a teaser before, but the longer extended look was released recently. Y' all gotta look at it. What did y' all think of the movie?

[A]

Yo, let me tell you something. First of all, Sampson's in this as Quincy Jones.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I. I knew that. I knew that. I knew that. We saw that preview, kind of.

[A]

It's great. This look good, man.

[B]

Of course it does.

[A]

Looks good. Coleman Domingo. Far Jackson looks good.

[B]

Miles Tellers.

[A]

Miles Teller's in. Looks like an elevated, serious telling of the life of Michael Jackson, which is once in a lifetime story about the biggest star in the history of pop music.

[B]

Yeah, what made me excited, too, is, I mean, the Jacksons. An American Dream is still one of my favorite, favorite miniseries. I can quote that line lines in that movie from the beginning to the end. But that stopped at Michael leaving the Jackson 5. So what I'm excited about this is we're gonna get the Jackson 5 in it, which we need. Cause the trailer has a lot of Joe Jackson. Of course I thought about you. You don't have to repeat it. We all know the line you like. But I thought about you when I saw it. I thought about you. I thought about you.

[A]

I don't know what she's talking about.

[B]

I thought about you, but I'm glad. Well, at first when I watched it, I was like, oh, wait, I thought it was just about Michael. Oh, we're Getting the Jackson 5. Michael all the way to life as Michael, you know, to the end, I'm sure. So I'm. I'm really eager to see the portrayal of this. We've waited. We've heard about it for a long time. We waited a long time. It looks good. It looks good. So it's getting my birthday weekend. No, you don't need to say it.

[A]

Bernard wasn't here. So one time, Joe Jackson was in an interview, and he asked Joe Jackson, they said, yo, Michael alleges when he was a kid.

[B]

This is so dark.

[A]

I didn't know anything about him being sick, but regurgitated. But he did regurgitate. He regurgitated all the way to the bank. You know.

[B]

That'S an evil man. You know, Donnie, I don't think you've ever played the clip before. At least I don't remember. Do you think he knew what that word meant? Because he said gurgitated.

[A]

He said.

[B]

Do you think he knew what it meant?

[A]

So Michael had said that he was like. Like afraid to perform and that sometimes he would regurgitate because he was afraid not.

[B]

No, I thought he would hit him. Regurgitate.

[A]

Joe Jackson said if he regurgitated, he regurgitated.

[B]

God.

[A]

What was wrong with these old niggas? Oh, our fathers. What was wrong with our fathers, man? Our fathers would do stuff, man. If your dad was born between 1930 and 1955, I understand, man. What was wrong with these old niggas? Regurgitated all the way to the painting. It's not funny.

[B]

I thought it was regurgitate.

[A]

It is regurgitate. It's Joe Jackson. I know it's regurgitate.

[B]

Regurgitate is a word too, but I'm just saying, I think. I don't even think he. I don't even think he knew what it meant. He just said, well, whatever it was, he did it all the way to the bank.

[A]

So. But look, here's the thing. It's interesting. Joe's deal. You got to think about Joe Jackson. I thought about this while I was watching the trailer. So what if you started the Jackson 5 like now in life? Joe had already reminds me of, like, what my mom told me about my dad in his life. My mom was like, you know, a lot of the things that your father has done, you center yourself in these things. That's why you say, my father did this. My father died. She's like, try to think of him as his own person. Try to think of him as Van Lathan Sr. You think about Joe Jackson, he work in a steel mill, he got 19 kids or whatever. He's like, yo, I'm about to put these little niggas to work. They dance us out of this steel mill.

[B]

That's exactly what he did, right? According to the movie, he. Well, according to the movie, Tito broke the guitar string. He beat Tito and then said, I fixed it. Now play. And then was shocked at how talented they were and just saw dollar signs and was like, I'm gonna make a band, okay?

[A]

I'm gonna. Look, I know you guys are expected us to talk about all the other things around Michael Jackson. Not gonna do it.

[B]

We're gonna go see the movie because it's my birthday week. I'm gonna go see it together. We're all gonna go see it.

[A]

I'm gonna dress up as.

[B]

Which. Which version of Michael?

[A]

That's a good question. I think my favorite version of Michael is General Mike.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

When it was. It was the. The military with the glasses. General Mike is my favorite version of Mike.

[B]

Okay. You were talking last week or earlier this week about a Jerry curl.

[A]

So no one.

[B]

Maybe. Maybe this will.

[A]

So I'm going back to Ziering and I'm gonna get more hair transplant. And then after that, I'm going for the Jerry curl straight up. All next year. 27. All 27 is Jerry Curl.

[B]

I'm with it.

[A]

Yeah. Donnie, let's get into the Epstein files. You see anybody? You know?

[C]

The Department of Justice released the largest batch of Epstein files so far. I mean, it was huge. 3 million more pages of documents and thousands of videos and images. It's tough to go all the way through, but I know y' all have taken a look at some of the latest revelations out of it. What did y' all think of the newest updates?

[B]

This is your. This is your jam.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Turks and Caicos.

[A]

Turks and Caicos.

[B]

Banana cream. What was it?

[A]

Bailey's Banana and Cream.

[C]

BBC.

[B]

Yeah, the BBC.

[A]

Yeah. This is.

[B]

This.

[A]

Oh, wait. Shout out to Gwen's. Shout out to Gwen. Shout out to all of this stuff. Rokana has coined a term. I think the term is very apt at looking at, viewing, distilling all the information from the Epstein files down into, you know, thoughts or opinions. He's coined the term Epstein class.

[B]

Meaning.

[A]

Meaning the class of people that would have knowingly had relationships with Jeffrey Epstein or surrounding Jeffrey Epstein and the reasons why they had those relationships. There is a thought amongst people that what we are after, people are after is the web of individuals who were individually responsible and in a group responsible for abusing young girls, for abusing young women, selling young women, incubating young women, all of that stuff. That's actually not, in my opinion, what we're after.

[B]

What is it?

[A]

We're after the structure of people that could know, be connected to have any thought that that was happening or a possibility and did not have the moral courage to do something about it. And the reason why I say that is this. When you see the way that a lot of people are talking to Jeffrey Epstein, David Stern, the former commissioner of the NBA, emailed to Jeffrey Epstein and he says, hey, whatever you guys are doing over there, orgies or whatever all of that stuff might be, when you see the way people. Elon Musk, are talking about attending the island with Jeffrey Epstein, all of that stuff, right? When you see just like the sort of cultural knowledge, the understanding that there's something untoward, illicit, that this guy is a. A freak that can provide you with the nut that you want to bust. Right on. And that these girls are young. When you see everyone who was just kind of involved in that, and you see where the web goes. Deepak Chopra, who was talking to Jeffrey Epstein about the type of younger woman that he likes to be around, all of that stuff. When you see all of this stuff that was going on, you start to get an understanding of the fact that many people not just knew that he had already been convicted of soliciting sex from minors. That was the reason why they liked him. The reason why they liked him is because he could plug them into this eyes wide shut, weird, depraved, usery world. And that web is so big.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not just about people who knew and who took part and who did all that stuff. It's also about people that were just down for the party, just down for the party and didn't care who was throwing it, and about how those people communicate with each other and the favors that they'll do for each other. And that, to me, I think, is an interesting way to look at this. Once again, I have to say this. I'm not criticizing sex work. I'm not even criticizing intermediaries into sex work. Like, I don't know. I don't want to come off, like, holier than thou insofar as. Okay. But what I am saying is we're talking about young women preyed upon being used as currency in a group, amongst a group of people, that. That's what you could bring. You could provide the young woman to massage someone, the young woman to be abused by someone. And that's what made you, amongst these people, the man.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I. I agree with you. I've looked at it more that way, which I'll get to a second, which leads me to the other thought of, like, what is it that we're doing here? Because I think the original purpose was, you know, to get these files, to uncover what's in them, was obviously for justice for the victims and to a whole. And to hold accountable the predators and, you know, the perverts that were involved with all of this. Right. But I've been thinking of it the way that you're talking about it in the sense that it really does, you know, highlight this elite class or Epstein class of people who wanted access or attention or, you know, there was a level of power that they Were trying to get to that. They feel like this type of thing, granted them, that separated them from another group. A secret society. You know, you hear about these things. You hear about places there. There's sex clubs and stuff that are secret society kind of things, you know, all over this country. And this was something that was on a higher level even that. That you're money or your position gave you access to. But I also think it highlights the way this class of people view women. They look, they wanted women around, whether they were underage or of age. They looked at them as if they were disposable, whether the woman was. They viewed these women as objects, whether it was in a sexual way or just to have them there for their presence as a woman. But they were disposable. And that's how they talk about them. That's how they treated them. That's. That to me, is also something that we should be attaching to the, you know, the people that are affiliated with this. They didn't care about women.

[A]

It was.

[B]

That was also how they use their power, like just to throw them to the side, to use them in the way that they wanted to be. And I think that that speaks to something too about this class of people.

[A]

Hmm.

[B]

But at the end of the day, and this is like kind of the question, I was coming in with it, you know, we both see that it highlights a certain group of people and what they desired and what they wanted and what they were looking, what they were okay with ignoring and turning a blind eye to, or just okay with even being a part of, if they weren't ignoring, they didn't care as long as they had access to it. We agree on that. Right. So then my thing is, and going back to what the original purpose was or is, I should say, in regards to the Epstein files, where do we go from here? Because even though we're calling attention to this, and I don't think we're the only ones doing that, millions and millions of files have been released. Nothing that has really come out to the files has pointed to someone that I've seen, unless I. Please correct me if I'm wrong, where you can, like, criminally hold them responsible for something. It's just information of people talking to Jeffrey Epstein knowing that he had been convicted of. What was the exact conviction?

[A]

I want to say he was convicted. He got a sweetheart deal. He was. They played it down to solicitation of sex from someone not yet 18.

[B]

Knowing that and still keeping in communication with him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, it highlights that. But it hasn't really pointed to somebody, you know, violating. Like, there's nothing in the emails that we've seen so far where it's like, unless and if it is an accusation, the DOJ has come out and said, well, these are uncorroborated. Or, you know, like, we. The FBI didn't. These were just tips. So it's like, okay, well, this is here, and we're seeing some wild things, being accused of Trump and other people. But it's not corroborated. These are just tips. Like, it's. So then it's like, so what are we doing? Where do we go here from? Now you have all this stuff. You see all these people were connected to him. What do we do with this? Because it seems like. And I've seen people, you know, that are loyalists with the MAGA movement saying, well, it's just an accusation. Nothing was proved. Oh, wow. Well, they said that these were just tips. Like, what are we doing with this now? I think that's like, I don't want to sound like I don't care, because I do. It's just like, all right, we're getting the documents. What are we going to do now? I will say I know that there are filing something in the courts because with the release particularly of these documents, they revealed a bunch of personal information about the victims. They didn't redact names, addresses, identifying information, pictures. But I mean, well, I'll move on for that, but they didn't do any of that. So it seems like they've caused even more damage for the very people who were hurt from this. And in the first place, it's like, what are we doing now?

[A]

That's on doj, right?

[B]

Yes, but I'm just saying, like, the only thing that come out is what we talked about, and then that they have damaged these victims even more with the information that they've released, all the redactions we've seen. But yet you put all these victims information out there. Like, how did you miss that? You put these people out there in harm's way and harm them even further than they've already been harmed. So I'm just like, what are we doing now?

[A]

I think DOJ in that regard, first of all, two things. Number one, there are a lot of files being released. There are gonna be some mistakes made. But I think the mistakes that are being made are being made purposefully.

[B]

I do, too.

[A]

I think DOJ in that regard is testing for us that the purpose of that is for us to have this conversation about whether or not it's worth hurting people. I am not in any way removing myself from the conversation around the victims, their rights, their sanity, what they've been through, their pain has to be paramount in this discussion. However, I do think a way to test people's appetite for this is to purposefully immiserate the people who are victims here to make us say maybe it's not worth it. I think your question is very interesting, and I'll answer it personally for me. Okay. Where do we go from here? Answer to me. Easy. Further. And let me personalize it, man. Noam Chomsky. Noam Chomsky was at Fred Hampton's funeral. Noam Chomsky, who has been a voice in criticism of the American empire, a voice that has talked about over the years, this country's dedication to lying, to destabilizing any voices that don't go around, go along with the American political corporate status quo. Someone who I've read, whether it's manufacturing consent, whether it's working for American Dream, whatever it is. They're emails of Chomsky giving Jeffrey Epstein advice on how to beat pedophilial allegations. Their emails. There are going to be some people in this who are going to have relationships with Jeffrey Epstein or with people surrounding Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, that frankly, they're going to be able to explain it. They're going to be able to explain it. They're going to be like, hey, like, Gladwell was on the. The plane. Gladwell says that he got flown off for a TED Talk. He ended up on the plane. Chris Tucker was on the plane, being on the plane. Not great. Okay.

[B]

I was having dinner with someone recently who said that they almost got on the plane and they had no idea it was. It was Epstein's plane. Okay.

[A]

There's some people that are going to be able to explain this. And then there are certain things that are just inexplicable. And Chomsky, who has been somebody who I've looked to for intellectual guidance for a long time, having that conversation with him is inexplicable.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

I would like to know that. I would like to know who needs to be defrocked, who needs to be demasked, and who really needs to, in front of people, male and female, who needs to. In front of people, have sort of a come to Jesus moment. Because we're talking about what we will tolerate in the polite society that we want to create. And in the polite society that we want to create, at least the one that I want to create I don't want somebody on text telling someone how to outlast pedophilia allegations. I don't want that look is what it is. That to me is useful knowledge in terms of understanding. Why would like to associate with give power to lend credence to their name, Deepak Chopra, someone who you know for a long time has made their bones and their living as a spiritual guru that is supposed to be a humanist. That association to me would have to be investigated and litigated. So.

[B]

So the court of public opinion, not.

[A]

Obviously not just the court of public opinion, just I'm an information guy. I watched, I've been, I've told you, I think I told you about this. I've been doing research into the siege at Ruby Ridge for like the last month just to understand prominent instances of government overreach prior to this and the way those things went and stuff like that. I want to know this stuff and.

[B]

I don't think that that's wrong. I would want to know too, I think. But what I would want even further is some accountability for it. Like are they. Are people. I mean most people probably aren't even paying attention to this, right. Like they see a headline and they keep on moving and it dies within, you know, with. Until the next big story comes. But I guess I would want. And what I was hoping for with the release of these files is that people are held accountable. So okay, maybe there's not a criminal act that's that we see within the emails, but you're affiliating yourself with someone like a Jeffrey Epstein. What are we going to do with that information? And that's why I say the court of public opinion. It's like maga's going to be MAGA and they're going to support no matter what. But what are we going to do, you know, with seeing a Deepak Chopra or.

[A]

Well, the question is what are you going to do? I mean that starts. You can't even begin to have that question, have that conversation if you don't know what's going on. So the, like the, you can't begin to have that conversation. The question is, hey look, once again, it's up to everyone to be able to look at some of this and decide on their own whether or not it meets the smell test or whether or not it's just like no big deal. Big deal or no big deal, they'll be up to people. There are certain people, particularly people who were affiliating with him after he got out of prison and they Got a lot of questions to answer. You know, a lot of stuff that is going on, like, as far as they're concerned. So here's what it is. We'll see. But there's. There's more and we're going to keep it coming. We're going to keep the Epstein files coming, baby. Well, is there anybody. Have you known anyone that's been mentioned personally?

[B]

I've. Not personally, but like, yeah, I've seen. I saw a name that I was.

[A]

Like, oh, I know people that have been mentioning in there.

[B]

Yeah. But not mentioned in a way where it's like the people we're talking about. Nope, for me.

[A]

Not me. I don't know people that were mentioned in the inner circle, but I know people that were mentioned in ways that kind of pull the veil off of how things were going in certain places. Ice, Donnie.

[C]

Yeah. Steve Bannon spoke on ICE recently. He said this week that the government is planning to send ICE officers to patrol polling stations during this year's midterm elections. And he said this a little bit after Trump himself said that he. He believes that Republicans should nationalize voting. So, yeah, you know, I saw something.

[A]

Earlier from old Chucky, Chuck Schumer, Big Chuck, Two Buck Chuck, Donnie, play with. Play what? Oh, Chucky. Young Chucky had to say recently. Play. Play with what? I put in the, in the, in the group text. No secret police. These guys go around. These people go around with masks. It makes them more brutal. They're never accountable. No one even knows who they are. There should be no masks except in the most of unusual circumstances. You know, some guy's picture was put up by a terrorist group or something. But there should be no masks.

[B]

What was the exception?

[A]

It's tough. No, there should be cameras. Everyone should have cameras. And there should be rules on how they use them. Okay. And they have to have regular uniforms, not all the stuff they're wearing regular uniforms. But we can't have secret police and we cannot, you know. Do you think fanatics will do. The ICE uniform has said he wants to keep the mask.

[B]

I guarantee you with reform, that would. That would be contra. That would contradict.

[A]

I think Ruben would do it fully identified with their name.

[B]

What is reform about?

[A]

I think fanatics would do it.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Put the. Put the fucking bid up. I bet fanatics would make the ICE uniforms. Cut him off. The Democrats are going to cook out on this.

[B]

Yeah. He's giving you his bullet point list right there, which we knew, right, because you haven't really shown us anything that you're going to take a hard stance when it comes to ice. We said it. It should be simple. You should abolish it. There's no way to reform it at its the way it is, even the way that the Trump administration and the Department of Homeland Security has handled it since the deaths of Good and Preddy. But they gave. But they have a list of demands which we've seen already prior to this, and that he's pretty much laying out right here. I'm going, this is the Chuck, this is the Schumer way.

[A]

I'm going to read out the list of demands. Have we talked about the list?

[B]

Yeah, we talked about.

[A]

So look, I guess my thing is this. I've talked to a couple of people in government over the past couple of weeks about this. I've gotten kind of a spectrum of reaction to how this should happen.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

There are hurdles in terms of what can be done about ice. Ice is funded in a very direct way. $75 billion. It's part of the big beautiful bill. So that. So there are. There is a ceiling.

[B]

Did you say DHS is funded?

[A]

DHS is. Okay, yeah, there is a. There is a ceiling on exactly what. How much power can be used. This is what I'll say to Schumer, to Jeffries, to whomever it is, whatever the ceiling is, whatever going to the mattresses is on ice, go there. This is not one of those issues, in my opinion. And I don't understand how the Democratic brass means. Manages to miss the moment every time. It's an art. It really is impressive. Whatever the mattresses are, whatever going to the mattresses is, whatever the nuclear option is, whatever burning it down is, go there on this. Go there on this. You have a cultural and intellectual mandate, not from the left, but from a large majority of the. Of the American people to end the madness that they are seeing on their streets, to restore control. Like you have that people have seen it. They've gotten their fill of Trump and his ICE assault on Minneapolis, on Chicago, on Los Angeles. They don't like it. This is not what they want. Your MAGA, bro podcasters are out. Like you don't have any reason not to be as direct, destabilizing and aggressive in shredding ice as you need to be.

[B]

Well, and that's the thing, too, that I just don't understand. It makes me laugh when you say it's an art. Because even as you have Chuck Schumer saying the things that he's saying, right. How can you think that that is going to stop the madness, as you say, to your point, of, of what ICE is doing. And Trump, even as you're saying that, is still playing in your face because he's saying, I'm about to use these people, I wanna nationalize voting. And you're sending out a bat signal to your supporters and I'm talking about those who vote for you maga also in Congress of what it is you wanna do and you want to use this very department to execute that. Even Republicans are saying that that's problematic. I know Chuck Schumer thinks that's problematic. So now he wants to take this force. Oh, they'll have their uniforms, their new uniforms. They'll have their body cameras, they'll have the mask, unless it fits one of these exceptions. They'll have all those things that you're going to get put in so this can move forward, this bill can move forward. But they're going to use that to cause possibly. Right, cuz this is what Trump is calling for, to cause chaos at polling stations, to intimidate people to. And yes, that is against the Constitution. That's not allowed what he wants to do with nationalized voting. But since when has Trump been held himself above the Constitution all the time? So how do we not know he's going to execute these things? We see what's what happened in Georgia a couple of weeks ago. We see the way that he's talking to podcasters, we see what Steve Bannon is saying. The very department that you are about to fund is about to basically execute voter suppression. Possibly that's what's being threatened at this point. So how can you sit there and say that when you see what also Trump is saying this week? That's what I don't understand.

[A]

I guess my question is to Schumer or to Leader Jeffries or to any of these other people that are eating around the edges of it. Don't you want to abolish ice? Fuck everything else. Fuck what you can do. Fuck what you can do. Don't you want to abolish ice? Don't you want to get rid of it at this point? Haven't you seen how rotten and putrid the organization is? Haven't you seen it? Aren't you going to say enough? There's no reason to like whisper this or to. And this is the deal. We're going to talk about some of the other stuff that's going on, particularly with James Talarico and Jasmine Crockett. And I have to be honest with you guys, you know, I'm being Called a leftist. A leftist coon. You know, you don't go along with the center of the Democratic Party and you get called all kinds of names and you get disinvited to all kinds of functions.

[B]

You got disinvited.

[A]

They don't want me around anymore. They don't want me to come to. Yeah, man. I mean, I can't go to the convention sponsored by Nissan and all of that shit like that. They don't want me around anymore. I'm not a freedom fighter. This bitch is on Spotify. So don't look at me like I'm trying to. I'm not calling anybody out. What I'm saying is that, like, these are the moments. This is not me throwing wrath and lightning bolts from on high from anyone. Most of the people that I know, even the ones that I disagree with that are inside of this coalition, they want the best outcomes for people.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I really, truly believe that. And we might have different visions and versions of those outcomes, but they want the best outcomes for people. I believe it. What I don't believe, though, is that when people said, abolish the police. Right. Excuse me. When people said defund the police, I don't believe that the center of the Democratic Party had that conversation with them in good faith. I don't think anyone went, what do you mean?

[B]

Had that conversation with the people who wanted to defend.

[A]

Who wanted to defund the police. I don't think they said, okay, what are you guys talking about? I think they got scared and they got scared and they went, okay, this is the group of people that are going too far. This is the group of people that are saying, you know what this is? We can easily use their perceived extremism to pull people back to the center and make a large swath of the American voting public believe that we're the safe ones.

[B]

They did do that. Biden did that.

[A]

Right? So what I'm saying is, in this situation now, there are people that are saying, abolish ice. And then there are other people that are saying, that's a little bit too far. There's currency in that. There's currency in saying we're not as far to the left or we're not as radical as what they are. So the America and the party and the power structures, we're the safe hands, the reasonable people that you can have conversations with. And I'm telling you right now, ICE isn't reasonable. It's not a reasonable thing. Like, we're not living in a reasonable administration. We need less reasonability from you guys. We need y' all to get as mad as what we are. And by the way, there's nothing that is going to stop or insulate you from criticism in this situation, in this moment. I don't give a fuck who you are. I don't give a fuck how black you are. I don't give a fuck how Southern you are. I don't give a fuck if you from Baton Rouge, you went to McKinley High, your last name is Butler, Stewart, Lathan, Ellis or Watson, all of my family. I don't give a fuck how. How familiar I am with you. You move wrong, we calling balls and strikes over and cool me out, like the whole nine. Do what you got to do. You move wrong, I am going to say don't like it.

[B]

I don't know why. People calling you a coon.

[A]

No, no, no, no. It's just like, you know, there's only one person that was like, van is, what is with white leftists now?

[B]

I just. I guess my question to like a Chuck Schumer is, of the bullet point list that you had, which one of those things would have prevented the deaths of anybody who's died at the hands of ice? That's my question. It wouldn't have been a mask, it wouldn't have been the camera. Like, these are people who aren't, one, who shouldn't even be there. Right? That's not their role. Two, they're not even trained in the positions that they're supposed to be in. And three, there is a level of hate that exists within some of these people. I'm not going to say everybody, but a lot of them, the whole from the top down to the bottom. So I just. And it's so obvious, if you joined.

[A]

ICE after the Trump administration, you joined in hate.

[B]

But my point is, is that this is so obvious. I understand you don't want a portion of the government shut down, but, like, this is not enough. And again, when you have a Trump who this week is playing and flirting with the idea of using the same group for voter suppression, to intimidate because he feels the midterms are out of his control, he's seeing what happened in Texas, he's seeing what is happening in other places, he's using his power in ways that are not right. Authoritarianism. We say it every episode on this podcast. Why? It's just not a sense of urgency for you. I just don't get it.

[A]

Once again, I think that there is currency for them, obviously to be the stopgap against the radical left. Extremists that want housing for people. The radical left extremists that want healthcare for people. The radical left extremists that want to see the dignity of the global south, that believe in a world order that doesn't involve taking countries by force whenever you want. The radical left that believes in a woman's ability to choose. The radical leftists that believe in a living wage. The radical leftists that believe in the power of the worker. The radicals, they're blue haired, hippie radical pinko communists who don't think that people should have to starve in the richest country in the history of the world. So those people, in order for them to make sure that those people don't take over, they have to say, you know what? We can work with ICE and look, it'll probably work.

[B]

What will work?

[A]

Everything that they do, it will likely work. It will likely work because, and this is not a kick the Democrats in the nuts segment, it will likely work because we just can't get there. We're going to have the same conversations over and over and over again. It doesn't matter who sacrifices their body and their one life that they get in resistance to the thing that's clearly wrong. It doesn't matter how aggressive they are about their version of the world. Our version of it is just saying, hey, we're the normal ones when none of this shit is normal. None of this is normal. And it hasn't been normal for a very long time. And in closing, I will say this. The people that you should be most skeptical of are the ones that try to convince you that there's a way to make it normal. The ones that try to convince you that there's a way that this could all be done politely. I'm just being for real.

[B]

It sounds funny to even hear you say that this could all be done politely.

[A]

Do you want to talk about James Talarico and, and Jasmine Crow?

[B]

I think it's a bigger conversation because we would like to have a guest on with it.

[A]

I mean, we talk about it when we have the guests, we'll know what you think. You're from Texas. You think Talarico's a racist.

[B]

No, I, we, we've had this conversation before. I think that it makes your argument ineffective when you're quick to throw those things out or you lead with that first. I, I, I, So for those who haven't maybe been following along and correct me where I get this wrong because we're just doing this off the top of our heads, but James Talarico apparently had a conversation with a content creator. It was a black woman. And I don't know if he said off the record or not, whatever, but he allegedly said that he thought he was gonna be running against a black mediocre man instead of a formidable, intelligent, mediocre black man. Yeah, black woman. So the mediocre black man he was referring to was Colin Allred, who we know dropped out of the race and made room for Jasmine Crockett to run. And so he made this comment. This content creator doesn't have it on tape or video. But she comes on, she says it, and then her account, that video is taken down, like, pretty quickly after. And so the speculation is that somebody from Talarico's team had it taken down because he was the subject of that video. And quickly thereafter, it was removed. This went viral. I see on. I saw on threads. I'm not sure if it went everywhere, but it went viral where a lot of black content creators, black, you know, political analysts said, had a lot to say about the fact that, you know, this is showing James. James Talarico's true colors. This is what he says behind closed doors. At first, he didn't put out a statement, kind of like lived in on social media for a few days. Then he put out a statement where he didn't deny making it. He just said he thought he was making a comment. He thought he was complimenting, I guess, Jasmine Crockett. So this is what he said. He said, this is a mischaracterization of a private conversation. In my praise of Congresswoman Crockett, I described Congressman All Red's method of campaigning as mediocre, but his life and service are not. I would never attack him on the basis of race. I understand how my critique of the congressman's campaign could be interpreted given this country's painful legacy of racism. And I care deeply about the impact my words have on others. So he's basically saying he said it, but I guess there was a different intent behind it. But no matter the intention, it came across a certain way about Colin Allred. People still aren't accepting this. And Colin Allred came out and said, you know, don't come for me unless that's in for you. I was. He was kind of staying neutral, but he's fully put his support now behind Jasmine Crockett. I don't think you asked me what I think about this. I think that I can understand the side of people who are like, listen, he should have never said this like a white man should not Be speaking about a black man like this, I'll agree. Right. Like, I, I don't. It's kind of like we can say that maybe, but you can't say that. Like, why are you calling him a mediocre? It just comes across wrong. What do you mean mediocre? Why are you saying this about. About him? You know, I, you know, like, we make jokes about, you know, maybe him being married to a white woman or whatever like that. But like, I, it's like, I didn't make jokes.

[A]

They made them jokes in Houston here.

[B]

Hearing, hearing James Talarico say call him mediocre. He should not have said that. I believe personally that that was wrong. Now, what he said about Jasmine Crockett, he was complimenting her and I guess viewed her as more of a challenge in the race than he did. He minimized Colin Allred. But I don't take that as some people are as, you know, I didn't see them calling him a racist. But basically saying, like, this is defining who James Talarico is. This is what he says in private. This is. Says off mic. This is the real James Talarico and the version that you're getting of him, you know, in front of the media or the Persona that they're trying to create around him is not the real him. I can't say that from this one comment that I particularly subscribe to that either.

[A]

Interesting. So, number one, a couple things. He. For James Talarico and his team. For James Talarico and his team, for Graham Platner as his team. The thing is less important to me than what happens after it. I keep trying to tell you guys this. We are living in a community made up of different people with different sensitivities, different sensibilities. There are going to be times where we run afoul of each other. It's the way that it goes. Happened last week or earlier this week with Fat Labia.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I wasn't trying to, you know, I was trying to be. I. Talarico it. I was trying to be.

[B]

Your intention was to show that women not use. To show that women are strong as well. That was your intention.

[A]

Or not even strong, but that, you know, cojones is big cojones. I wanted to, and then, look, it went wrong. Right? You learn from it, but you have the conversation. You have the conversation. The thing that bothers me more than anything is the press release culture that we live in and the culture that says that you can talk to white people about how you've run a file of black people. So that means that if you're Grant Platner, you can go and do a bunch of different shows where there's no one that looks like fucking Bernard that's asking you questions about a fucking Nazi tattoo that you might have or anti black things that you might said. That to me is just saying that black people's voices in this coalition don't matter. Okay? So what I would suggest that the Talarico team do is find somebody black to go have this conversation with. And not just a conversation about this, but a conversation about how. How we miss these types of things. Have it openly and honestly. If you don't do that, don't give a fuck if it's here, but somewhere else. We have asked James to come on. All right, if you don't do that, I'm going to be like, why don't talk to us? Yeah, like why you want to talk to us when there's something to talk about?

[B]

Because you shouldn't be scared to have these conversations. They might be uncomfortable. I think, you know, it's why we come in to Keith for coming in person and having the conversation. By the end of it, he literally admitted, I didn't see it that way. And I think that's exactly what happened to James Talarico. He said it, he thought he was saying something different. And he needs to sit down with black people and understand why there are people who are feeling the way that they do now. It probably won't win over those people. I think a lot. A lot of people that I've seen talk about it, and even some of my friends in Texas have already made up their mind when it comes to this. And there's some other stuff that has come out about, you know, maybe his team or whoever he's working with kind of doing a smear campaign on Jasmine Crockett that has people also thinking a certain way. There's like, well, and I actually posed the question to those friends. I said, well, what if, you know, he hires a team to work on his behalf? He might not know necessarily what's going on. And they said, well, he should know. And so there are people that, with all of this combined, have made up their mind. Maybe they were before. For James, with everything that they're hearing coming out, they've turned a blind eye to it. I think he needs to come and understand why people are feeling that way and not. And not ignore it and run away from it. And I think that as we talked with Keith, that does everybody like a service to sit and come and have these conversations that may be uncomfortable, Right?

[A]

If this is truly coalition building. Because politics is one thing. I couldn't care less about the politics of this. I don't care. I don't care about the politics. Politics is a dirty game. It's a dirty business. Everyone gets dirty. It's the way that it goes. If he's running a smear campaign against Jasmine Crockett or trying to highlight her unfavorables or. Or trying to do all of this, that's the way that that goes. Right? It would have been fantastic if this race didn't have to get like this so that the main thing could stay the main thing. But it's politics. It's the way it goes. But part of this primary and part of this process is for us to learn these things about these candidates, for us to learn as much as we can about them. So we don't put on jerseys and get Fetterman right. So I don't have a problem with none of that in terms of how brutal the campaign gets. If she's respected as a black lady, it's gravy. If there's no Shnequas, no ghettos, no this, no low IQs, none of that stuff. None of those dog whistles that dehumanize black women, that we know are there to dehumanize black women. And if the politics stays above board in terms of. I don't care if it's aggressive, that doesn't bother me. The part of this that I'm always trying to investigate is not who I can win with, is who I can build with. Because winning elections is only one part of changing the reality for people in all of these different places. We have to crystallize and define these ideas. We have to strengthen these coalitions. There have to be serious people at the table to have serious conversations about what expectations are. And if you are not willing to talk about something when you fucked up, you're not serious about it. Now, I put that to the side. Nothing that was said really bothers me, if I'm being honest. Nothing like he was pandering, trying to pander. He fucked up and he said some shit he shouldn't have said. By the way, I'm completely agnostic on this race. I'm completely agnostic on this race. The one thing that I hope more is that we learn way more about both candidates throughout this process. I want to know as much as I can about Jasmine Crockett, as much as I can about James Talarico. Because I think that both people have futures in the national political conversation. But I am telling people once again right now, and I want to make sure. I was just having a conversation about this because it is difficult right now, the space that we're in, in a lot of ways, because there are fundamental operating policies and practices that we've always gone by. We want to see the ascension of black people and black voices everywhere. But I personally, in any political conversation moving forward, culture, community, familiarness, sameness will not be used as a weapon to get me or anyone who I respect not to criticize people that are running for political office. I'm sorry. We. We. I'm too deep into the game with this shit to be on that. I'm going to look at you and assume like I do with most black people that I meet, when I give a black man a head nod, he give me back the head nod. I'm assuming that we looking for safety between one another. That's what that means. Hey, what's up, bro? Like, I know we at the Grove. There's not a lot of us here. How you doing? You straight? You good? How's security treating you? Yeah, well, if we have to burn this motherfucker down, we probably won't, but we will be mad together. All right. But sometimes you give the head nod and you don't get it back, right? And sometimes you give it and you don't give it back. Sometimes culture isn't enough.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And so to me, like, or it's not respect or there's no sameness in it. To me, if I see, and I do see a lot of this, I see a lot of people, a lot of people that are using the same playbook to kind of extinguish some of these really relevant, necessary conversations. And it's not going to work with me. And whatever I am, I'm fucking that. I'm going to sit here and we're going to have a conversation about Keem Jeffries. And the fact that his first name is Hakeem is not going to make me stop having that conversation. Y' all could fucking get mad if y' all want to get mad. Take my name off all the lists. It's shit to get done. And the shit that that needs to get done is shit that hasn't been gotten done. So let's have the conversation for real. If James Talarico is a fucking racist and he was with the Proud Boys, and he got fucking American history, XPass. Get him the out of here. Like, get cool. Get no Problem with it. But if we gonna do the same thing over and over and over whenever we get in a race that we have to talk about serious issues and well, we have to investigate the metal of people and whether or not they really mean what they say and they are who they are. Like, we have to investigate him as a bible thumping Joe Rogan of the left. We have to look at Jasmine Crockett in terms of her ability to get her agenda done and who she is. And we have to be able to do it without people wagging their fingers at us and saying, if you ask these questions, you wrong.

[B]

Yeah. Or if you don't agree with me on this, you're wrong. I want to say for the record, I, I, I know you. It doesn't matter to you. I don't, I don't ever want to hear a white man call a black man mediocre. I'm just never going to be okay with that. But this incident would not be enough for me to be like, I'm out on you. I need to hear, I need, I would be weighing more than this for me.

[A]

Let me be clear, let me be clear. When he said mediocre black man. Like if I was in front of him, I'd be like, what's the black about? Like, y' all know me. Like, y' all know me. Like, why you gotta be black? Like, I like and, but understand this though. I flash out when it's time to flash out. I'm, it's like I flat. When it's the thing that would make me, that would get me more upset. The thing that would upset me more is if I tried to have the conversation with him.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Right after that. And then he didn't want to do it. I would be like, oh, you think you're better than me? You, you're not even here for the conversation.

[B]

Well, it's interesting you say that because some people were like, because remember it was a couple of days before you put out a statement. So some people were like, if he does, he has to address this. If he doesn't address this, then it's an issue. Then he addresses it and he pretty much says, I said it, you know, and, and then explains, you know, not necessarily the why, tries to explain it and says how he was wrong and what he should have done. And then people are still like, okay, well then that wasn't enough. So it's just not enough.

[A]

I was, I don't think that's enough.

[B]

No, I was just about to say I would love for him to have a conversation with somebody. I prefer it to be us but with someone black. Black media talking head to just get to the deeper issue of the why this is offensive. Why how this is a problem within the black community for black people and how we can move together forward with it.

[A]

Keith. Keith is going back and forth. Keith, who is Adam Cochran? I've been seeing him a lot too. You know him, Adam Cochran, Keith and it seems like his. Keith and Adam Cochrane they against Roland Martin now it looks like they're going back and forth.

[B]

Okay. I didn't see.

[A]

We'll have Roland on pretty soon. Even Roland coming on the podcast.

[B]

He said I think he's supposed to be coming to LA soon. We'll have to have him on.

[A]

Like Roland is a good to me a bellwether, very accomplished, very important guy. Black independent media. I'll be interested to see because I saw him talking to Jamie Harrison. Be interesting to see where. When we have Roland on like where he lands on a lot of this stuff as we kind of.

[B]

Isn't he. I think. Isn't he Forge. He's four Jazz.

[A]

I'm pretty sure he's four Jasmine. But. But I don't think that there's. I think that they're with someone who is as politically knowledgeable as Roland is. I think it'll be interesting to get the reasons why he's for her because he's a constituent of hers. Yeah, he lives there. He might have. I'm sure he does have more direct political reasons like policy based or, you know, actionable reasons that he is supporting Jasmine Crockett. That will be interesting for people to hear because I feel like when people talk about Jasmine Crockett a lot of times they're not talking about anything that's based in policy outside of her opinions on, you know, Israel or other things like that. If we were to get into the weeds and try to have an understanding. This is probably true for James Alarico as well. We're talking about so much surrounding both of these candidates. We are talking about identity and culture and authenticity. All of these things matter in a political race. I'm not saying they don't. When are we going to get to the brass tacks of what these people stand for and have accomplished from a policy perspective? So you will know who will help improve the fucking power grid in Texas? Who has the political will to do it? Who has the connections to do it? Who is the person that is going to vote for there to be a fucking AI data center in your community? And who is the person that won't do that? Who is the person that will fight to raise your minimum wage and who is the person that won't? Who is the person that will arm a genocide and who is the person that won't? Wasting time. He's getting on my goddamn nerves. But I think that when we have rolling on, I think we can talk about a great many things, but also we can get to the bottom of not only how we should be thinking, but you know who Congresswoman Crockett is. To one from one of her constituents. I get I'm to the left of Roland, Way to the left. But there's still, I think, supposed to be a coalition of us all. I don't know if that's true anymore.

[B]

Supposed to be.

[A]

Supposed to be. Supposed to be. Why don't you go, hey, man, why don't you get on this new? Why don't you get on this, you know what I'm saying? This new.

[B]

Why you winking at me?

[A]

Why don't you get on some of this new. Why don't you get someone else, you know, Pinko Communist, moist. Come on, man. Come over here. Come on, man.

[B]

What do you think I am?

[A]

I, I, You. You. You on the road. You on the road, Comrade Rachel.

[B]

I'm not there.

[A]

You, comrade Rachel, you're. You're almost there. Obviously I'm joking, guys. But I, I, I just, I, I do think that now is the time for us not to just look at the other side, but how and who we want to win with.

[B]

We can't do things the way we've been doing. I 100% agree with that.

[A]

What is this, Donnie? Like soup?

[C]

K. The comeback.

[B]

I knew you. I knew you.

[A]

We got Subi in the show. What the.

[B]

Are you thrilled? Are you thrilled? Whoa. Tell us what's going on, Donnie.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

All right. Former Bachelor host Chris Harrison is making the TV comeback. He posted a casting call on Instagram with the caption said it's time to help people find love again. Now. Casting now. The casting call has caused some controversy. Let me read a little bit of what it said. It says a prominent streaming service is casting single men and women wanting one and up one. A traditional marriage.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

A traditional marriage minded partnership built on commitment and shared values. We're looking for singles who believe in clear roles, long term commitment and building a life together, and who are dating with real intention.

[A]

What the fuck is this?

[B]

Your guess is as good as mine. But I knew you'd be happy that he'd be out the Kitchen. Allegedly it's tied to a big streaming service. We don't.

[A]

What's the streaming service?

[B]

They don't. They haven't said.

[A]

They haven't told us.

[B]

We don't know. That's in the casting call.

[A]

I know what it is.

[B]

What, what is it?

[A]

This is Fox Nation for sure. I was gonna say this is Fox Nation for sure.

[B]

Well, people, of course, this popped up and people immediately are like, or I'm tagged and stuff, right? Because it's like, oh, the last time he's on tv, this controversy, blah, blah, blah. You're forced to. Former employer was like, who? TMZ was like, do you have a comment? Do you want to give them a comment? The comment is, listen to the podcast.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Because people are like, well, what do you think? What do you think about it? I'm happy for him. I'm happy for him. I am happy. I'm happy. You know why? Because if Toys R Us is the place where a kid can be a kid, then this is the show where a Chris Harrison can be a Chris Harrison.

[A]

Oh, you. This. You're not happy for that.

[B]

Now, we don't know much about this show other than what Donnie just said. Right. Shows traditional love. Okay, Right. Clear roles. Is that what you said, Donnie? We believe in clear roles. So a lot of people, I mean, that's open to interpretation, but a lot of people are coupling the traditional love part and the clear roles part and saying, hmm, this, this seems to be coded maybe for something else. Now in the casting questionnaire, apparently for this show, the show asks the would be contestants what their ideal marriage would look like, including a traditional conservative example. That's not the quote. But this is a provider husband and a stay at home wife. The wife managing the home, finances, child care, faith based leadership in the home. So this is why people think it feels a little coded. And I guess the questionnaire then asks the contestants what they believe modern dating gets wrong and what a traditional marriage quote means to them. Right? So like, if there's an assumption, I think we can gather, I mean, you already said Fox Nation. It's like we can gather that this is more of a conservative type dating show. And there's, you know, people are split. Like some people like again are saying, oh, this seems like, you know, like a maga, you know, coded type, traditional values of what a woman maybe used to be or one or they wanted women to be back in the day. They, you know, people are saying that this feels like the patriarchy, all of that. And then there's Other people who are very excited, right? Like me, I'm happy, you know, that he. That he's doing a show again. It's about love and the type of love he seems to want to showcase. But for all the people who are excited and are like, you know, this is amazing, you know, he's coming back to TV and he's bringing traditional love back. Like the Bachelor used to be, right? Like the Bachelor used to be. Traditional love. It was traditional love when he was there, and he lost his way. You guys have to stop lying to yourselves. There was nothing traditional. Traditional in the sense that we think this show is about the way the Bachelor was.

[A]

Oh, you don't say. Oh, yeah.

[B]

I mean, well, it's. It's why there was a fictional show called Unreal that was created by one of the producers of the Bachelor because they say those first, like, eight, ten seasons were the wild, wild west. What was going on there? Second, finding love on reality tv. Nothing traditional about that. So all of you, like, I mean, for all of you who are like, oh, this is a chance for nothing traditional about finding your love on reality television. And Chris Harrison, when he did the Bachelor for what, almost 20 years, he was in the trenches with him, with them, right? He wasn't above any of it. He was complicit, which is why he had leverage on the show, and he was able to use that leverage to get an eight figure payout. The show back then was about business. It was about money. It was about the bottom dollar. And everybody about that show and who was a part of putting it on was about doing what they needed to do to make the show a success, to make it a successful business, to generate a lot of money and a lot of tension surrounding the show. I will say, you know, when people are like, chris Harrison's so traditional, and I'm telling you how he wasn't above all of that. He was a part of a system. The only thing traditional about that show before was that it kept with a certain pattern, and that was about white people finding love until I came on the show and quote, unquote, mess things up.

[A]

Who said that?

[B]

Well, the Bachelor clan, as you name them. You know, I changed things. I. I brought.

[A]

I brought.

[B]

I started talking about things that they didn't want to talk about. I messed up the show in a way because I said, well, why? You know, love can look all kinds of ways, right? But for 15 years, that show has showed you you have to look like this and kind of be a part of this type of culture. To be able to find love, that's what makes you desirable. That's what the Bachelor teaches, Taught until I came about of it. And even. I don't know if we talked about this, but even Chris Harrison, right? So this goes along with the traditional love thing. In an interview, he was asked before about, like, why there hadn't been a diverse lead. And this was prior to me even joining the show. This was. He said, television is a business. And he goes on to say, what happens when our. What happens when our show is off in six months and you're not watching it anymore? Advertisers have to buy this show. Advertisers have to buy the next season of the show. I need millions of people to watch this show, so I need to put on people that others want to watch. That was his response into why there hasn't been any diversity in regards to the leads. And then I came on the show, right? And then a couple of years later.

[A]

How'D the show do ratings wise, when you came on?

[B]

The show goes down in ratings every year. Less people are just like watching it on tv.

[A]

Was he lying about what he said? Do you feel like what he said was unfair?

[B]

Well, I think it's unfair that you weren't even giving people a chance for it to work because I had higher ratings than my white counterpart after me. You know what I mean? So it's like you weren't even giving a chance for love to look different. You just assumed because this is what.

[A]

I want, that America doesn't want to.

[B]

See it, that America doesn't want to see it. He said people don't want to watch, that I want to put on a show that people want to watch. And that show does not include diverse leads. He literally said that. Then I come on the show and there was Matt James after me. And then that's the season where it all went down for him, right? So a couple of years later, a couple of years of diversity. And then what does he say to me on the show? He basically defends a contestant for being in a photo, an antebellum photo, says, what's wrong with it? And actually says to me, who the hell are you? Who the hell is Rachel Lindsay? Like, why? Why are you having a conversation about this? Why aren't you showing her grace? Why is this even an issue? To wit, to so many people were shocked. And then what happened happened, and that was the end of it. Listen, Chris Harrison has told you before what traditional love is. He said it in an interview before I was on the show, he talked to me about it after, about, like, where his. Where his values, ideals, all of that stand. So for him to be a part of this show, this is why I say I'm happy for him. That is Chris Harrison. There is a through line with who he is and what he's about. And I'm glad he found his way back to create the show that he wants and the version that he wants, which is traditional love. So good for him. I'm happy.

[A]

Well said, Soupy. It's been a while, man. It's good. This reminds me of the old days.

[B]

The good old days.

[A]

The good old days.

[B]

I think he'd say the same thing.

[A]

Of having a soup kitchen conversation where we used to talk about him all the time back in the days. It's funny that we say that he got sent to the soup kitchen when he is rich as eight figure deal. Eight figure deal. Soupy, get your bread. This is what I will say, maybe controversial. I don't know that he was wrong about what he was saying at the time that he was asked about the diverse league thing. And let me tell you why he.

[B]

Might not be wrong as a business thing. It doesn't mean that maybe it was right.

[A]

It certainly wasn't right.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And it's. But I. When we first would talk about that, I'd be like, God damn the cajones on him. Or.

[B]

You have a new term.

[A]

You guys know gonads works. Everybody has gonads.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

That's what they said. Gonads is a unifying term. The gonads on him.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

The gonads on him. To do that after knowing the audience a little bit more, seeing the way you've been treated, seeing the way you sometimes spar with people who are in your comments that might have come to know you from the Bachelor. I think he knew his audience.

[B]

No, no, he didn't know his audience.

[A]

And I think that he. I think that they cultivated that audience.

[B]

We've talked about it.

[A]

I think, to me, the Bachelor got to a point where they knew that they couldn't put somebody black on the show or they didn't think that they could because of what they had leaned into and how they had positioned the show years prior. And by the time they actually got some diversity on the show, it ended up becoming a four alarm fire because what they had cultivated was running up against criticism of the show just from people who weren't even like fans of it that much. You know, I never even gave a. About the Bachelor, but then I heard they've never had a black or male or woman be. And then I was like, wait, why? I was like, for real? I was like, y' all have. What's his name, Jesse Palmer on there. I know Jesse Palmer from being, like, a football player. SEC football player is in Florida. I was like, you know, I can't put Charlie Ward on that. You know what I mean? It's like. It's like, you mean. So I mean, I'm pretty sure Charlie Ward is married. But America will watch. America will watch. Like you to me. Tell me America wouldn't watch. Prior to the dog stuff, America wouldn't watch Michael Vick on the Bachelor. I think they will watch it. I think it would be interesting. Vic on there, you know, or somebody that played for lsu, put Rohan Davey on the batch. Herb Tyler, right.

[B]

I was like, why does it even have to be, like, a black person like that? And that was also my issue, too. It was. I was told in my casting, well, we don't get people like you that come on the show.

[A]

Well, once again, this goes back to what I'm saying. This goes back to the fact that when he was describing the reason why he couldn't do that, what he was really describing was a figure four leg lock that they had put themself in from their version of the show that they had been making and how they had come to it. And then by the time they start having you on, having Matt James on, and then we get to the antebellum, now we run it up against George Floyd. People care. The shit's on Disney or whatever. Now they're in a bus all. Nobody knows how to kind of get out of it. Now he's talking to you. He's not used to having these conversations. He fucks with the wrong one, he finds out, now we're on Fox Nation. Here's the deal. It's like I'm just being for real in no way, by the way. What I'm saying is this goes back to everything that, like, I'm talking about. This goes back to, like, you live in the house that you build. And so he probably wasn't. What he was saying was probably not true, but they did it. And then when they tried to undo it, they weren't prepared to deal with the diversity of thought, the. The extra added eyes. Because I look at the shit when I was watching Matt James season, and maybe I was wrong. Remember the thing where they had his dad on there, and I was like, God damn.

[B]

Like, in front of these people, I Was super critical.

[A]

I was like, but. But look, at the same time, they had done like that on the Bachelor before, and we had covered it on tmz. Remember when Aaron Rogers, they had the.

[B]

Empty chair at the table.

[A]

Oh, man. The good old days of tmz. We died down on that one. They went to. And then it was the empty chair there. We had so much fun with the empty chair. That was ridiculous. We had. We. We used to have fun, man. But, like. But. But so just, you know, all of this stuff. So I don't know. Do you wish. Okay. Because you did do the thing where you said you're happy for him, and then you spent about five minutes kicking his back in. That was fun.

[B]

I just. I just went down memory lane, dude.

[A]

Would you. All right, how about this? Soupy Soups. Everybody has a soup kitchen, Particularly in this business. You make a lot of soup kitchens. Like, people that used to work with people that you had. And it's very hard for people. I understand you guys are listening. All your friends are the greatest people in the world. You hang out together, and you guys are all in recycled clothes and all of that stuff like that. But have you spoken to him?

[B]

No.

[A]

When was the last time you spoke to him?

[B]

2020. It happened. 20, 21.

[A]

Are you. Or he was fired, or what was your relationship? Just to go back down memory lane with him before that, which is core for him.

[B]

I think we played the game of being cordial to each other.

[A]

It was never real to you, though.

[B]

I know he didn't like me.

[A]

Oh. Have we ever discussed this?

[B]

I don't know, but I know he did not. And El Nico. My understanding is that I didn't respond to him in the way that, I guess, contestants before. For me, like, before did, you know, like, we were cool. Right? Like, I've always said, he gave me great advice about not doing Dancing with the Stars if I wanted, like, a media personality career, because I would be tied. And I've always given credit to that. But that was, like, still when I was on the show, like, we were talking about it, I was still filming, but I just. I don't think I gave him the attention or, you know, as the host, like other contestants have done. Like, they really wanted to get cool with him and get to know him. And, you know, there were times when we were filming, they would bring him in to talk, and I would be like, I don't want to talk to him.

[A]

Him.

[B]

Just flat out, I'd be like, I don't want to talk to him. What Am I going to talk to him about, like, what is he going to say to me? He doesn't understand me like, or what. What my issue is? Apparently that's not how people responded. So I think that there was just kind of a. Hmm. And then I was kind of viewed as a troublemaker because when I was done with the show, I would call the show out about certain things and it was. Why are you saying that? Why are you saying that?

[A]

Yeah, we actually. I never told you this, but we almost did a story at TMZ about you and Chris Harrison.

[B]

At what time?

[A]

I think it was. Cause we had people that were telling us stuff while you were on the show, and then maybe like right after.

[B]

And it was that we didn't get along, apparently.

[A]

You had told him to talk to the hand.

[B]

I did.

[A]

Because the face.

[B]

I didn't say that.

[A]

You. You had told him say that. What you had said to him.

[B]

It's not 2000. Whatever.

[A]

You had told him what we got. The story that we got was he had said something to you. He said, Good morning, Ms. Lindsay. And you said, talk to the hand, cuz. The face ain't having it.

[B]

I'm so glad you didn't run that. And I'mma tell you what happened.

[A]

I was. Look, nigga, I just made that up. See, I just. That we never had that story. See, I can get.

[B]

But there was something with a hand, which is why I thought that you said that. I thought that was true. Definitely talk to the hand, genius.

[A]

You told him to talk to the hand?

[B]

That's why I like talk to the hand.

[A]

We're getting to the bottom of this.

[B]

No, I didn't say. I didn't say talk to him.

[A]

You pulled the black girl talk to the hand?

[B]

No, I didn't say talk to the hand. But what happened was they brought him in to talk to me. And I was pissed because this is when you didn't. Oh, you did watch some of the show.

[A]

I did.

[B]

They brought riding the Horses, a girlfriend. That was that. I loved that there was a girlfriend of one of the guys who came on the show.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And they. They bombarded me at the date. They pulled me to the side and they're like, hey, one of the guys had a girlfriend. She's gonna come talk to you. And I was livid because I was just like. All I could think about is my job and the perception. And I'm like, you gonna.

[A]

Trying to set you up to be the angry black lady.

[B]

Yeah. I was just like, what? Why? What is this? So she comes and she talks to me. They don't tell me who the guy is. She comes, talks to me, then she tells me who it is, and I'm pissed. So I know if I go in the bathroom by myself, they can't follow you. If there's two people, then they can come in. So I'm like, I don't want to do any. I don't want to talk to any of y'.

[A]

All.

[B]

Producer comes in, talks to me. They're like, chris Harrison wants to talk to you. I was like, I don't want to talk to him. And so when I came out, I was like, I don't want to talk to you like that. I was like, I don't want to talk. And I just, like, walked past, and apparently that was, like, a disrespectful thing. I don't. Stop, stop. I said I didn't want to talk, right? I said I didn't want to talk. So I just think there was always this, you know, she's got an attitude. I'll never forget. I don't know if I said this when. So everybody liked me until the live show, when they made me watch it on camera for the first time.

[A]

What they make you watch?

[B]

They made me watch the finale on stage, live, in front of a live audience. And normally they give you the episode because they wanted my reaction. And I forgot that. My number two guy told me, if you don't choose me, you're gonna live a mediocre life.

[A]

Oh, Jesus.

[B]

Mediocre life. And I forgot that. So I'm watching that. And after they come out of the showing it, and they come to us, and he's sitting next to me, the number two guy, he says his thing, whatever. He apologizes. And I say, well, just so you know, I'm not living a mediocre life. I'm living my best life. And they go to commercial. During commercial, Chris leans over to me, and he's like, you need to relax. Like, it's not. And I'm like, what the fuck did I do? He's the one who said the mean thing I just said. Just so you know, you got it wrong. This is actually how I'm living. And it was like. And the producers ran over to me, and they were just like, calm down. Like, don't. You know, like, you need. Don't say anything like that. And I was kind of like, what's the big deal? When I got off stage and it was over, I saw that everybody was like, she's a bitch. She's Arrogant. She's angry. This is the real her. This is live. But they were all telling me, including him, you need to calm down now.

[A]

They were saying that because they felt like you went too far. Or they were like, the audience is reading this wrong. It was live.

[B]

They knew that I was going to be looked at. Like, she has an attitude. They knew the perception, the dynamic of me telling a white man, nah, just so you know, I'm living my best life. And he was so adored by the audience. Like, they were obsessed with him. And so they knew. They knew. They knew their audience. They knew how it was gonna look. He knew the audience, but he was like, you need to calm down. I was like, for what?

[A]

Get out of here. Just talk.

[B]

To talk to the hand. I was like, I did not say that, but I definitely went like this.

[A]

I know. See, you told. But you did that to him. Look, here's the deal. I'm going to tell you how this show is going to start. Would you guys like a prediction?

[B]

Go for it.

[A]

Brian is going on the show.

[B]

Do you know, I thought about that. I thought I wouldn't be shocked. Especially after me talking about this right here, right now. I wouldn't be shocked. They were like, let's use him on the show.

[A]

Brian going on this show.

[B]

It's going on for traditional.

[A]

Love it.

[B]

I got it wrong. The first time.

[A]

MAGA show. You used to hide the fact that he was Maga.

[B]

But he's not Maga. He's not Maga. I'm not gonna do that. He's not maga. If I'm gonna give him anything, I'm not. I'm definitely not gonna be accused of defamation. He's not Maga. I'm definitely not gonna be accused of Allegedly.

[A]

Alleged. Allegedly. Allegedly.

[B]

He's not Maga and I'm not getting accused of that. He is not mad.

[A]

Allegedly.

[B]

Don't do that.

[A]

Alleged.

[B]

Because we know how he roll.

[A]

Alleged. Alleged.

[B]

That's Van saying that on his own.

[A]

Alleged. Alleged. Bernard. What's my first name? What's my. Donnie. What's my name? Van LATHAN jr. No, my name is Alleged.

[B]

Yeah, that's all you. I'm not such a legend because I do not know that to be true.

[A]

Edge it then my name.

[B]

If I knew that, I would say it. Yeah, because then it wouldn't be defamation. I do not know that. I don't know anything about him being mad. Hey, man, that's not true. I do not know him to be that.

[A]

What's the name of this podcast?

[B]

Y' all keep going. Allegedly higher learning.

[A]

This is allegedly higher learning. Put that little thirds right now. This is. I don't even show the name of this bitch. All I know is what people say his name allegedly is what I'm saying.

[B]

I'm not doing that about the fucking.

[A]

Have me in court, but I have to have him leave marriage.

[B]

But keep going with this.

[A]

Ben Crump gonna be in this, like, about to have me shout out Lee. Shout out Ben. But. But like, it. It. But you know, this could be a situation where this is. Makes a lot of sense. This is synergy between Soup Kitchen and Brian. They could do this show together and that bitch will go crazy. I'm gonna be honest with you. If they did that, that bitch will go crazy. That would go crazy if they had him on here.

[B]

I think that this could be like, there is an audience for this. I think people will absolutely watch it. I like. I don't think this show won't be successful. Now, adding Brian to the equation does not make it more successful. Ain't nobody running to the TV to see him on.

[A]

They might. They might if they know the backstory as far as. People will.

[B]

But people will wilt. Want to see. I don't know. Oh, no, that's a dating app. I don't know of a conservative dating show on television. So there's a. There's a market for it.

[A]

Yeah, it gotta be something.

[B]

And he's the. I. He is the person to. Leah.

[A]

Right. All right, before we get out of here, we have two different instances of race. Somebody give me a coin. Anybody got a coin? It's real quick. This is very quick. Give. Give me a coin. We going to flip a coin. Who has coins to get racials? Y' all have no coins. Is there a car? Is there a coin flip app that one of y' all would have. Okay, yeah. Flip the coin. Heads or tails?

[B]

All right, ready?

[A]

Flip the. Yes. Flip the coin.

[B]

We got tails.

[A]

Tails. Damn. So Donnie T. McMillan.

[B]

All right.

[C]

NFL wide receiver Tate McMillan was on. You know, it's. It's press week. Super Bowl's coming up. Everybody's doing media stuff. He was on a stream playing Madden and had this exchange.

[A]

Pig. Pig to the Baha pick to the Baja. So Ted is Samoan. He's Polynesian, Is he not? Ted. Ted is. He's. He's Polynesian. He's Polynesian. He's Polynesian. He used the N word. I was gonna play the Deontay Wilder video. If we got heads of Deontay saying that it was racist that Tyson Fury beat the out of him three different times. But, But Ted. Oh, shit. Bitcoin is down to 65,000. Oh, fuck. What's. God damn, they going nuts on y'. All. Okay. Stuff. Uh, what do you think, Ted? Ted, I'm sorry. It just popped up. Ted said the N word. Um, everybody likes him. He's a very nice guy. He is a Samoan. There are some people that are saying that there's a Samoan exception when the N word is.

[B]

I saw that in the comments. They were trying to say, like, oh, they're allowed. Or, oh, like, as long as he didn't use the hard R, it was fine. I saw people sitting in the comments. Look, this is redundant. I, I, I don't. I'm tired of even having this conversation. I said it before, we said it again. If you're not black, you there, There are no exceptions. You don't get to say it. You don't. You, like. You don't know the gravity. Why do you want to say it? Why is it so necessary for you to say that word? All the words in the English language that you can use, you just have to say that one almost. Because it's for. It's forbidden. I don't know if you think it makes you cool. I don't know. I don't understand why it's wrong. It's wrong. It's wrong. You shouldn't use it. You should want to use it, period. And he. And he doesn't get a pass. Nobody gets a pass.

[A]

Okay, so I gotta say this. So Tet is. Has a couple of things going on I want to hear. Sometimes I don't like it. You know, the reason why he's saying it is because he's probably hearing it 15,000 times a day, and he thinks that he's part of.

[B]

Somebody's probably said it was okay for him.

[A]

All right, so Ted is just with Jordan Brand. All right? Signed that in May 2025. The sole NFL rookie in his class to join the Brand. He's also represented by Clutch.

[B]

Interesting. I wonder if our co workers will address it.

[A]

Nigga, nigga, nigga. Not allegedly. He said it. Yona, was she. Was. Is he black? No. You're not black?

[B]

No, he's not black.

[A]

So just. Look, here's the thing.

[B]

But he is with a black company, Clutch.

[A]

What's that gonna say? What's gonna happen, guys? Will it be game over?

[B]

Let's go. Nice.

[A]

Whoa. We can't have the. We can't have the. We can't. We can't do the N. So somebody pull him to the side. Somebody pulling to the side. I want it gotta be.

[B]

You want an apology? Yeah, I want an apology.

[A]

Take guys say sorry, man. Ted got caught with his hand in the.

[B]

I had no and didn't. Wasn't even fake. In that video, the you could see the girl is like, oh, my God. Did he just say that? She's trying to whisper to the friend. Like, did he just say that? He was on a roll. He just kept going. They cut it off. He probably would have kept going.

[A]

Hold on, let's. Donnie, do we know has he apologized?

[C]

I haven't seen anything.

[A]

But we can't do it like this, Ted. All right, Ted McMillan apology. How did he play this year if he had 10 touchdowns? Maybe he could say it. I'm just joking. Is.

[B]

He didn't.

[A]

He didn't.

[C]

Not yet.

[A]

Nah, he's not. He's not. He's not there yet. So. Look, Ted. Ted gotta say sorry. And it shouldn't take this long, okay? Like, it shouldn't take this long, okay? You gotta say sorry, Ted. All right? You gotta say sorry. You got. This is. You can't do this.

[B]

If I see Ted this weekend, as I'm going to.

[A]

You ain't gonna say nothing.

[B]

I'm going to say something.

[A]

Don't say that. Don't do this.

[B]

I'm gonna say something.

[A]

Cause then what? Cause what?

[B]

I'm gonna say, what's up, my.

[A]

You gonna say, what's up?

[B]

Swear to God.

[A]

What's up, my nigga?

[B]

I swear to you. Cause there's a clutch party.

[A]

I swear to you going to the clutch party?

[B]

Yes. I swear to you, if I see him, I'm saying this.

[A]

You gonna go up to me, you gonna say, what's up, my nigga? What if he looks back at you and was like, shit, my nigga, I'm chilling. Now. You're in the situation now. Like, so. So you gotta. You gotta be ready for what happens if he comes back or you and n you back. Now you're in the situation now. It's you and Tet. Now you know what's gonna happen. Let's say Ted raises voice. Then I gotta fucking call Nick. And then we gotta come up there. And then the whole thing is, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, is me, Nick, who else we gonna get? We, Nick gonna get a bunch of Bloods. And now we got to come to San Francisco now. Now it's higher learning.

[B]

He probably won't even be there, but probably won't even higher Learning the movie.

[A]

Yeah, now it's higher. Learning the movie. Not me and Nick. Nick. Nick is dope boy. Cause Nick looking for a reason. Who are you?

[B]

I'm Bus.

[A]

I'm Bust. No, I'm the big with the. Remember that had the big ass nigga that had to fuck. He didn't even get a. Actually, no. I am Busta Rhymes. We fight.

[B]

So I can't be Tyra. She don't make it.

[A]

No, you're not tired.

[B]

She don't make it.

[A]

No, you.

[B]

You Regina. Regina. Yeah, you Regina.

[A]

You Regina. And then, you know, we're not gonna. We know. We know the remy's that we got. Yeah, but Ted. You gotta say sorry, Ted. Okay? Nobody really gives a fuck. Cause nobody really cares about you yet. But. But you gotta say sorry, Ted. Gotta say sorry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Clutch normally be on top of this. Who's the.

[B]

The agent?

[A]

Let's make sure he's actually with Clutch.

[B]

Cuz, like, you said that. Well, if it's not. You need to take all that out, T. McMillan.

[A]

Clutch. Let's see. Let's make sure he's actually.

[B]

Where you even get that from?

[A]

I saw it online. Oh, it was in the. It was in the. The AI overview.

[B]

Yeah, Clutch.

[A]

He's with Clutch. God damn. That's tough. That's tough. All right, now we gotta go Tet. Do the right thing. Because if there's a, like, shout out to all my Polynesians, I with y'. All. Y' all know what. We've been getting down. But y', all, we ain't. It ain't like that. All right, we out of here. Super bowl, your pick. Before we go. Seahawks taking the Seahawks. Seahawks have to win. Seahawks don't win. I'm the number one Seahawks hater ever. I can't deal with this.

[B]

That's your pick, too.

[A]

I've said that on every podcast. Seahawks gotta win. Please get it done. Bad Bunnies do it for Matt.

[B]

Halftime performance. Gonna ba. Prediction. Gonna be one of the best. Gonna be a top three halftime performance show.

[A]

Steve Largent. You know what I'm saying? Do it for all these. Do it for the people that didn't get there. What was the name of the guy? The tight end that they had, and he was dating a lady, and he was talking a bunch of. Then he went into the Super Bowl. He kind of fucked it off. What was the tight end that they had when they lost the super bowl that they definitely should have won when the refs cheated the Seahawks out of the Super Bowl? He had. There was a tight end. That Derek. Y' all don't remember the. The. The. The Seahawks tight end? What was his name? The fucking guy.

[B]

He.

[A]

He caught the ball, kicked the pylon. Seahawks tight end, Super Bowl. Real quick. I wanted this name before we go. Seahawks.

[B]

Derrick Henry.

[A]

Nah. Hell nah. Super Bowl. Seahawks tight end, Super Bowl. Hold on for a second. Let me see.

[C]

It's Jeremy Stevens.

[A]

Jeremy Stevens is the. I'm talking about. Remember him?

[C]

No.

[A]

Do it for Jeremy Stevens, man. Put on for Jeremy Stevens. We gotta go take think house off. But do not stop learning. This is allegedly higher learning. Alleged. Everything's alleged.

[B]

And I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Hi, guys.

[A]

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[B]

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