Chud the Builder Shot, and SEC Boycott? Plus, Tiffany D. Cross on Womanhood

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: "Chud the Builder Shot, and SEC Boycott? Plus, Tiffany D. Cross on Womanhood"

Date: May 15, 2026
Podcast Host: The Ringer
Guests: Tiffany D. Cross (author, media personality)

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Episode Overview

This engaging and wide-ranging episode explores major topics at the intersection of Black culture, politics, and sports. Van and Rachel break down a viral “culture vulture” debate around hip-hop, deliver sharp commentary on the arrest of infamous bigoted streamer “Chud the Builder,” weigh in on calls for a college athletic boycott in the SEC, and host a rich, vulnerable interview with author Tiffany D. Cross about her book for Black women. As always, the episode mixes humor, honest debate, and vulnerability, especially in the conversation with Cross, who opens up about Black womanhood, community, love, and media gatekeeping.

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Key Segments & Insights

1. Opening Banter & Life Updates

• [00:08–05:38]
  Van and Rachel kick things off with playful banter about TLC’s “Creep” video outfits, generational culture touchstones, and a harrowing story Rachel experienced with a coyote encounter in her neighborhood.
• Memorable Quotes:
  • “I'm calling 911, and I'm like, there’s a woman screaming for help...This is like, 11 o’clock at night...we have a big coyote problem in the neighborhood.” (Rachel, [05:38])
  • “In this situation, I’m almost 1,000% Team Coyote...I mean, we’re in the coyote’s habitat.” (Van, [08:53])

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2. Culture Vulture Debate: Jason Lee vs. Peter Rosenberg

• [14:45–29:25]
  The hosts unpack a heated viral exchange between Jason Lee and Peter Rosenberg, where Lee calls Rosenberg a “culture vulture” for his role as a white hip-hop commentator.
• Van draws the distinction between being in hip-hop culture (which historically included many backgrounds) versus Black culture, noting Rosenberg sometimes acts as a “cultural hall monitor,” a role that’s rarely open to Black people in other spaces.
• Rachel pushes for precision—she argues Rosenberg shouldn’t be labeled a culture vulture if he genuinely supports, loves, and gives back to the culture, and isn’t exploiting it for his own gain.
• Quotes:
  • “A culture vulture is somebody who takes from the culture and tries to make it their own….I would not categorize Peter Rosenberg [that way].” (Rachel, [20:03])
  • “Rosenberg is a cultural commentator…[but] sometimes acts as a cultural hall monitor…that’s the only [Black] cultural space where you can come in and tell people they're not following the rules.” (Van, [22:16])

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3. Divine 9, Gatekeeping, and Identity

• [29:25–36:50]
  Rachel discusses backlash after she commented on a white MAGA woman’s membership in a Black sorority and debates the complexities of “gatekeeping” in Black Greek organizations.
• They explore whether anyone—regardless of race—should be able to join, and what ideological red lines (like overt MAGA support) should bring.
• Quotes:
  • “If you’re MAGA, period, you shouldn’t be part of these organizations…because you are supporting something that is against the direct interest of the people [they] exist for.” (Rachel, [33:33])

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4. Chud the Builder: Arrest, Stand-Your-Ground, and Community Response

• [37:01–47:11]
  The hosts analyze the recent arrest of “Chud the Builder,” a racist live-streamer charged with attempted murder after antagonizing Black people for months.
• They discuss whether his actions were always building towards this violent confrontation and examine how stand-your-ground and provocation laws in Tennessee might affect his prosecution.
• They further caution listeners to avoid such confrontational instigators, suspecting that figures like Chud are motivated by social media infamy.
• Quotes:
  • “He wanted to be a George Zimmerman. He wanted to be a Kyle Rittenhouse…He wanted to antagonize somebody just enough to where he could justifiably shoot them and potentially kill them…” (Rachel, [38:40])
  • “This is always what he wanted…He tried to build an intellectual bed for people to lie on…” (Van, [40:27])

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5. SEC Athlete Boycott: Black Power & Economic Leverage

• [48:27–62:29]
  Van and Rachel discuss recent calls from public figures for Black athletes to boycott SEC schools, as these states increasingly restrict Black political rights while profiting off Black athletic labor.
• Van breaks down the “five five-star” theory: it would only take a handful of game-changing recruits to pick non-SEC schools for the entire system to start questioning itself; Rachel is less convinced it would move the economic needle without deeper buy-in.
• Dialogue turns to the broader idea of economic boycotts of the South, including festivals and conferences, and the real human sacrifices that would be asked of young Black athletes separated from home and opportunity.
• Quotes:
  • “I legitimately think you could get [a movement] started with a handful of kids.” (Van, [51:14])
  • “You can’t put the entire future of the state on 18- and 19-year-old kids…If they're being asked to sacrifice something, then…I think we should talk about this as part of a wholesale economic boycott.” (Van, [59:02])

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6. In-Depth Guest Interview: Tiffany D. Cross – Love, Womanhood, & Gatekeeping

Themes Covered:

A. Love Letter to Black Women

• [65:39–79:46]
  Tiffany shares from her book, Love Me: A Letter to Black Women in a Toxic Country, Career and Relationship, and explores the core question: Will Black women ever get back the love they give to America, their careers, and their communities?
• She and Rachel discuss the unique joy, exhaustion, and connection of Black womanhood:
  • “I literally wrote to Black women, but I hope Black men read it…The love I give and the love we give…is overflowing.” (Tiffany, [67:10])
  • “I love the commonality of our experience. We belong to the largest sorority in the country.” (Tiffany, [72:31])
  • “There is a protection…if somebody messed with Rachel, they messed with us.” (Tiffany, [93:04])

B. Vulnerability and Self-Discovery

• [79:46–89:39]
  Tiffany, Van, and Rachel get real about “meeting yourself” and discovering authenticity through pain, therapy, and life changes. Both women reflect on the strength—and risk—of being vulnerable, especially in public.
  • “Sit in the quietude of your thoughts and chase those feelings…Don't escape yourself…It was really looking at myself in the mirror and not pretending to be the hero in that mirror.” (Tiffany, [77:10])
  • “In therapy I learned: actually being vulnerable is a strength.” (Rachel, [85:03])

C. Interracial Love, Identity, and Generational Tensions

• [99:25–120:35]
  In a frank, funny, and deep debate, the group tackles the meaning and importance of Black love, interracial relationships, and identity. Bernard and Jade join the chat to share personal experiences navigating interfamily and inter-racial dynamics.
  • “Every day I felt, I am Black. He is white. Even in the comfort of our household…I was always aware of it. I never relaxed in it.” (Rachel, on her previous marriage, [104:12])
  • “I ain't never seen a white man fine enough…that I would risk the magic that exists when I'm with my people…that comfort.” (Tiffany, [118:35])

D. On Black Womanhood, Sisterhood & Gatekeeping

• [116:31–120:35]
  • “I love Black people like I love myself…there’s something beautiful about when we come together in spirit and in love and ascend to a space. It takes me to an ancestral space.” (Tiffany, [118:35])
  • “My biggest thing is identity…and I think it matters in the sense of you losing your identity…because you are partnered or married to someone [outside the culture].” (Rachel, [120:35])

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7. Media Gatekeeping, White Supremacy, and the State of News

• [123:11–151:59]
  Rachel asks Tiffany about being publicly insulted by CNN commentator Scott Jennings and the broader problem of right-wing “entertainers” being platformed as serious analysts.
• Tiffany, an experienced journalist, and Van debate the difference between good-faith debate and false equivalence, as well as the challenges and promise of independent Black media.
• Quotes:
  • “I'm not gonna make small talk with somebody who doesn't see my humanity…you can have a healthy exchange of ideas…but to platform people rooted in your destruction—beyond defense.” (Tiffany, [129:47])
  • “It is reflected in their ratings…they normalize white supremacy…people are increasingly tuning out.” (Tiffany, [125:02])
  • “[In independent media] there is actually a craft…I'm concerned about this move, because journalism is a group project…There are people working in other fields going through the same things.” (Tiffany, [146:01])

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Black sisterhood:

  • “There is something beautiful…that could make it appealing for me to lose that trust with you. I don’t know you well, Rachel, but I know you. We belong to the largest sorority in the country…the bond is so thick that even if you and I didn’t like each other personally out there, it doesn’t matter.”
    (Tiffany D. Cross, [72:31])

• On being authentic & vulnerable:

  • “Sit in the quietude of your thoughts and chase those feelings…It was an unveiling and unmasking and really looking at myself in the mirror and not pretending to be the hero in that mirror.”
    (Tiffany D. Cross, [77:10])

• On interracial relationships:

  • “Every day I felt, I am Black. He is white…But I was very aware of it. I never relaxed in it.”
    (Rachel, [104:12])

• On the media’s double standards:

  • “You can have a healthy exchange of different ideas and ideology…but to platform people who are rooted in your destruction is, to me, beyond defense.”
    (Tiffany D. Cross, [129:47])

• On Black athletes & economic power:

  • “You can't put the entire future of the state on 18- and 19-year-old kids...I think this would have to be a part of...a broader economic effort to defund some of these states of Black dollars.”
    (Van, [59:02])

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Episode Highlights

• Thoughtful, funny exchanges about Black cultural icons and generational differences.
• A nuanced discussion of “culture vulture” accusations and what true cultural investment looks like.
• A passionate and practical debate on how (and if) Black athletes can use their power to drive political change.
• A vulnerable, affirming, and sometimes heated conversation with Tiffany D. Cross on the realities of Black womanhood, love, and the politics of community and gatekeeping.
• Sharp critique of mainstream media’s treatment of Black women, the rise of toxic right-wing punditry, and the possibilities and pitfalls of independent Black journalism.

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Closing

Tiffany D. Cross’s book “Love Me: A Letter to Black Women in a Toxic Country, Career and Relationship” is available at Black-owned bookstores nationwide.
(Tour stops, including a book talk with Van and Jamel Hill at Reparations Club LA, are announced.)

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Final Note:
This episode weaves together the politics of belonging, the fight for Black self-determination, sisterhood and vulnerability, and the power—and limits—of visibility in American life. At every turn, the hosts and their guest keep the dialogue heartfelt, incisive, and honest, blending righteous indignation, humor, and community care.

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For deeper dives, check out timestamps:

• Culture Vulture debate: [14:45–29:25]
• Divine 9/gatekeeping: [29:25–36:50]
• Chud the Builder & stand-your-ground: [37:01–47:11]
• SEC athlete boycott: [48:27–62:29]
• Tiffany D. Cross interview: [65:39–151:59]
• Media, fact-checking & independence: [123:11–151:59]

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on. It is Ivan Lathan Jr. And it's

[A]

me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[B]

Okay, so first of all, I gotta. I gotta comment on this. You got the TLC Creep thing going on right now.

[A]

Is that what it's given? Yeah, no, no, no. This is.

[C]

Is this creep or is it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I guess it's Creep. I was thinking red light special for some reason.

[B]

You thinking red light special?

[A]

Freaky ass. Yeah, it's creepy. Nobody had on black.

[B]

Cause it was.

[A]

No, they didn't.

[B]

It was red.

[A]

It was red. Blue. Maybe it was black.

[B]

Let me try to think about it from memory.

[A]

Oh, gray.

[B]

T Boss had red. Left eye had blue.

[C]

No, that's not right.

[B]

Chili had. Anybody that's listening right now, off the top of your head, can you remember the colors of the silk pajamas or silk outfits that were being worn in the Creep video?

[A]

The Internet's not working, so I'm not cheating. I think Chili had the gray. Chili had gray, like the iced gray. I think Left Eye was in the red and T. Boz was in the blue.

[B]

Do you guys have any idea Z corner? Any. What we're talking about right now?

[C]

Yes, of course.

[B]

Just making sure, guys. Just making sure. Cuz every once in a while, like with the gen zers, you ask them something and they have no clue what the you're talking about. Even though to you it's it be it be.

[C]

It'd be different spaces, areas, all that.

[B]

But we, we, we love creep.

[C]

We love tlc. Okay.

[A]

Okay. They switch it up.

[C]

So I was correct.

[A]

Okay, T Boss is in the blue, left eye's in the red, Chili's in the gray. But here Chili's in pink. Okay, so she switches it up. But okay. You said nobody had the black on.

[B]

Yeah, no black. Okay. So yeah, okay.

[A]

Shout out to you. I mean, back in my day it was like everyone was like, which one are you? Are you Left Eye? Are you Chilly? Are you T Bosing when you're on the playground?

[B]

Which one were you?

[A]

I was Left Eye. Always.

[B]

Yeah, my sister was Left Eye. And then we found out why later on.

[A]

Why I'm so Ebony. I am so sorry. That's crazy, Ebony.

[C]

I'm so sorry.

[A]

I feel like Ebony is always catching strays on this podcast and I just want you to know it's not me.

[B]

Ebony got to like 12 or 13 or whatever. And you know, she was wearing the loose fitting pants with the Timbs and I had the whole TLC thing and I was like, huh, It's a TLC phase. Wasn't a TLC phase. It was a life decision. It was who she was.

[A]

They don't all dress like that.

[B]

Not. No, they don't all. Come on. Come on, guys. Okay, I'm not saying.

[A]

But I see what you're saying. You're saying she wasn't like.

[B]

I think she saw that.

[A]

I get you.

[B]

You know, and then she. I give Ebony credit for this. Ebony, beautiful, amazing soul. When Ebony finally like, lived inside of her truth.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yes, Done. And I don't know if she wasn't living inside of her truth, but, you know, she did date guys on and off. But when she was done, fuck you. Get the fuck off of herself. Yes, she should, like, fuck you.

[A]

Having to feel like you can't be your full self for whatever reason is. You are definitely entitled to that.

[B]

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[A]

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[A]

Herms, can I tell you something that happened to me last night? What happened last night? I'm reading. We have a guest come on. Coming on today. And there's a movie on, and I hear a scream, so I'm assuming it's coming from the movie. And then I hear another scream. And, like, the person next to me goes, did you hear that? And I go, I thought that was the movie. And then you hear, please help me. It's a woman's voice. Please, please help me. Please help. And I was like, oh, my God, what is it? And, like, that person was about to run outside. I was like, uh, not before you grab a weapon. You don't know what's going on. And you just hear a dog just barking, barking like crazy. So I'm like, I'm calling 911. So I call 911, and I'm like, there's a woman screaming for help. There's a woman screaming for help. They're like, where is it? I'm like, it's next door. I think it's my neighbor. I'm telling the address. I'm giving her name, and I'm, like, trying to call her. Like, it side note, took forever to. For 911 to pick up. And I'm calling her. It's going straight to voicemail. I'm freaking out. Grab a weapon, go outside. And there's a woman sitting there who's not my neighbor, who's sitting on the curb in my neighbor's house. And there's a car, like, diagonal in the street with the doors open, and she's holding her dogs. Actually, before that, the person with me goes. Cause I'm like, look through the windows. Look through the windows. Like, we can see the street. And he's like, do you see that coyote right there? And I was like, no, I didn't. Then I look again. I see the coyote. So then we go outside. There's a woman who I'm not familiar with, with her two dogs. And I'm like, are you okay? And I yell out my neighbor's name. And she's like, yeah, I'm outside, too. I'm fine. This stranger's sitting there holding her dogs. And she's like, a coyote came two inches of my. Like, my. Of me. So she making herself bigger and screaming wasn't even deterring the coyote. He was chasing her. This is like, 11 o' clock at night, which also. I'm walking your dog. A woman. By yourself? Two dogs, 11 at night. We have a big coyote problem in the neighborhood. I think there's a couple of dens in the neighborhood. And you know, the coyote I didn't see. Then there's a man walking down the street. And I guess the coyote was going to bite her. And this good samaritan happened to be on the street and swerved his car over. And that deterred the coyote from running away. But the woman ran up to my neighbor's house, was pulling the door open, which I'm like, what would I have done? She was like trying to get in the house, screaming for help. Anyways, the cops came, ambulance came. Cause the woman couldn't breathe. Cause she was so terrified, Right? And I mean, I really didn't sleep after that.

[B]

Just like you didn't sleep after the.

[A]

I mean, it was just like a terrifying. And then like, you always wonder, what would you do in those situations. Like, after I called 911, every scenario went through my head. I'm like, is my neighbor. Is it somebody, you know, attacking my neighbor? Is she being robbed? You know, she's a single woman too, so we kind of like look out for each other. She's a single woman with a kid. And it just was like, do you run outside? Do you. Like, what do you do in that situation? I mean, you get the weapon and

[B]

then you go, do you. I mean, do you have the blammer?

[A]

You get the weapon and then you go, yeah.

[B]

I mean, that's what I got.

[A]

Like, I. I'm not.

[B]

Two things. So number one, I do, as people know that come to the house, I have the blammer. We from the several blammers, blam, blam, blam. At one time, I was going to get rid of it, but, you know, things got too crazy. Okay. So also, if you have the blamor, just know that say this all the time. You're safer fleeing. You're always safer fleeing. Grab the gun so that you can flee safely. You're safer fleeing. In this situation, I'm almost 1000% Team Coyote. Without a doubt. I'm team coyote. I mean, we're in the coyote's habitat. So we have moved. We've moved into there. So I'm, you know, the coyote. Just be on the lookout. Keep your head on the swing.

[A]

I didn't say harm the coyote, but my. But this coyote, apparently. Cause I can't even imagine.

[B]

Cause they're getting bolder.

[A]

Yeah, she was like, it's because I see coyotes taking leisurely walks, like their afternoon walk up and down my street. Like it's nothing. I've been very fortunate. Like, I now have like an air horn, a deterrent spray.

[B]

Get the spray.

[A]

Because it's so rampant in the neighborhood, I'm not necessarily worried about Copper. It's just more a brownie and he's a maniac. So he would jump after them. But it just was such a. I get what you're saying about the coyote. But also, like, this woman was about to apparently get attacked too. To where she was trying to run into neighbors, houses. Then another neighbor across the street was like. Like 15 minutes after the screams comes out all leisurely. And he was like, everything okay? And I'm like, yeah, everything's fine now. And I explained to him what happened and, like, nobody got bit. And then he goes, but are the dogs okay?

[B]

It's important.

[A]

And I'm like, but this woman is here. He could care less about the woman getting attacked. He was like, are the dogs okay? And I was like, yeah, they're fine. Thanks. Have a good night.

[B]

Well, the thing that is normally, I mean, you seem to have a set of bold coyote. Your coyotes seem to be crips. You have bold coyotes. Coyotes repping a set. Neighborhood coyotes. Neighborhood coyotes. Seems like you have. Because they organize and they're doing it. But normally the thing that is in most danger in a coyote situation are the small dogs. Dogs that are small, just two smaller dogs. So you have bigger dog to coyote unless it's in a pack. A couple of coyotes normally lead a dog alone, but. But if you have smaller dogs, the coyotes get the dog, fucking kill the dog. That's what the coyotes will do. Are you afraid of the coyotes in your neighborhood? You're afraid that they've.

[A]

I am afraid of.

[B]

They're organized.

[A]

I'm afraid of them getting my dog, my little dog. Cause also there's a. They sit. I think I've told you this off mic. They sit across the street. Like I've seen. This is now. This will be the fourth time that I've seen a coyote in the last six weeks. Sitting across the street from my house on the sidewalk, looking at my house.

[B]

Your house specifically.

[A]

It's sitting. Sitting there, staring right at it. That's the fourth time. One time I forgot to close the gate and the coyote came in the yard, heard it barking, yipping, yipping. One time I was on the phone with Kalika and I go, that's either a baby or a coyote. And I went outside.

[B]

That's either.

[A]

What a baby. It was the way it was yipping.

[B]

Oh, the yipping. I thought you looked at it and thought, baby or coyote. I was about to say, we got some issues.

[A]

I was on the phone with Kalika and I walked outside and I go, there's a coyote. And I go. And it's sitting across the street just looking dead at me.

[B]

I think people don't understand how we live with the coyote here in la.

[A]

I don't think people get it, but I've. I have lived in my neighborhood for four years. This is the first time the fires in four years. Yeah, yeah. That I have seen a coyote and multiple times. It's like we're seeing them every week now.

[B]

Yeah, the fires.

[A]

Yeah, they said it was the fires for sure.

[B]

Well, look, everyone is very scary. Scary for Rach, you know, make sure you have something you have. I don't know, remember. But see, now, listen, I don't hate to go back to stuff. I hate to go back to stuff and pull up old shit. Do you remember back when we first were talking a lot about mountain lion? By the way, shout out to Beth Pratt. She invited me to come and look at different things involving nature around Los Angeles. I'm going to do that. And I'm also going to go down to San Diego with Dolphin Dom and go whale watching.

[A]

I want to do that.

[B]

We're going whale watching. You have to come.

[A]

I actually really want to do.

[B]

We're going whale watching. We're going to go. Okay, we're going. That's the thing that's happening. So shout out to them. But, you know, when we were talking about the way we got on mountain lion is you said you were going hiking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I asked you if you brought a stick.

[A]

Yeah, you did.

[B]

So that you can fend off mountain lion in case he attacks. Okay. And you were like, I don't need that. I think that we've been here for a long enough time to know two things. Number one, you do need the mountain lion stick.

[A]

You do.

[B]

You do need it. And number two, you might now need a small coyote sword as well.

[A]

I looked it up. I looked up machetes, and I'm not even kidding. Not even kidding. I'll show you my Amazon search right now. I looked up machetes and I looked up, like, sticks, but they didn't have a good stick. That's when I went down the machete route.

[C]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

I looked it up. You have ruined hiking for me, by the way. I May have gone. Been hiking maybe five times since you started it. Because I am so paranoid now. And then everyone's like, oh, well, by the time you. If. By the time you see them, it's. It's too late. Or whatever.

[C]

It's like. Or you're fine.

[A]

It's when you don't see them. And I. It just got in my head. I'm so paranoid that I'm like, there's other ways to exercise. But you have ruined the hiking experience for me, which is an LA staple out here.

[B]

Look, the stick is not gonna save your life. It's just gonna give you a chance.

[A]

A chance.

[B]

If the mountain lion. If the mountain lion wants you gone, you're gone. Okay? The mountain lion is a predator that over thousands of years has built up the ability to kill. If you want you gone, you're gone. But they're normally nice, or I guess they're not nice. We don't see them. We like the mountain lion. I love mountain lions. So here's Beth right here. Private tour of wildlife crossing. I'm gonna go have the private tour of the wildlife crossing. It's great. Okay, we have a late breaking piece of video that. It's not important in any way, shape or form, but it's very interesting because it's an interesting conversation and it's also fiery content. This is Jason Lee from Hollywood Unlocked. We've had Jason Lee on the podcast before. This is Peter Rosenberg from the Ebro Laura Rosenberg show, formerly of Hot 97. We've had Rosenberg, I think, on the show before. We have had. We've had Rosenberg on the show before. Right. Arguing about the fact that Jason Lee on Drink Champs called Rosenberg a culture vulture. I think this is an interesting conversation for a couple of reasons because. Donny, could you go ahead and cue that up? You should ask your friend ASAP Rocky, what he feels about Peter Rosenberg. Ask him if he's a culture vulture or if he helped make his career. Well, let me say this, and he will say, oh, Rosenberg. Rosenberg is the guy who took my songs, cleaned them up for radio play, and gave them to other DJs so he could play my music. So all I'm trying to say is, to me, being a culture vulture is taking from the culture, not giving back. I have gotten things from hip hop culture. It's helped make my life, and I'm incredibly grateful. But I have always and always will prioritize giving back to that culture. Helping uplift other people, people of color specifically. That will always be a part of my life. So when you just lackluster, throw out culture vulture. Yeah, man. On a big platform like drink champs. And you have a big voice. And by the way, you're a very entertaining, charismatic talker. It sounds really good. Yeah. That's some hurtful shit to say about someone. That's not who I am. Okay, so I'm going to just say this. I'll be with Rocky tonight at his son's fourth birthday, and I'm going to tell him to his face that I don't give a shit what his opinion is about his support for you, your support for him, what he's done for you, what you've done for him. Because me and Rocky talk about Rihanna, we talk about his children, we talk about how proud he is of me running for office and his love for Harlem and helping kids. We don't talk about you or anybody else. I didn't interrupt you, so I just said, let me say bullshit. I just said meaningful content. You're talking. Do you want me right now? You're just showing off about you're being friends with rock. I don't give a shit. No, you told me you invited me and I'm giving you. I just gave you facts. You're giving me bullshit. You invited me to talk to my friend about you. And I'm telling you that I'm not going to do that because his opinion of you does not matter to me. Here's what I'm saying to you, and I'm not saying it on social media. I'm not saying on Drink Champs. I'm saying it to you on your show, okay? That I said this about our mayor, where I'm the vice mayor and she's the mayor. She appointed me. I said they love our penises, not our policies. I love that you love hip hop. I love that you've done a lot for hip hop. I love you put a lot of people on. I love that you believe that you're the reason why asap. Rod didn't say that. Whatever you said. I, I, I believe. And I believe you love hip hop. And I believe you've done a lot from what I've talked to Nor and other people about hip hop. I hot 97, which I did over there, was great. What you're doing here is great. What he's doing at Apple is great. What you're doing on your own is great. None of that. I'm not taking any legitimacy away from the work that you've done. I'm talking about when, like, George Floyd are dying. That's the real shit. That makes me speak out about that, too. Hold on. Great. No, no, I speak out about that. Always have. O. But guess what? Spoke out about LGBTQ rights always. But you ain't suck dick and you ain't black. And so you know what? I can't contribute. Let me tell you something so you'll never really know. That's great. And you never really know. You want to draw lines. If you want to draw lines with allies over the fact that I'm not black or I haven't, quote, sucked dick. Yeah. But you don't know that I have stood up. You don't know that I have risked my livelihood. I. I risked my livelihood wearing a Black Lives Matter on live television, getting in trouble with bosses standing up. What. What. What groups have you stood up for that you're not related to? And I got shot. And I now run the city. Whose streets? And by the way, you know what? I think it's very clear. It's not a measurement, but yet. But you keep bringing out measurements. This is for your clip farmers that need this moment. I don't really care about all of your resume. Of all the things you've done, why do you say it? Here's the deal. Because I said there, and I'll say, now, I think you're a culture vulture. First of all, I just want to say something. I thought that after there was a. So there was a moment. Bernard knows what I'm about to say. There was a moment where Rosenberg goes, because I don't, quote, suck dick. But you don't know that I have. I was about to say, whoa, wow.

[A]

But he didn't.

[B]

That's not what he said. But think about what a comeback that would have been. Think about if someone. If he would have said that to him, and Rosenberg would have went, you know what? You don't even know. I have, in fact, sucked dick. See, you don't know everything. Just for one second. It's very funny. All right, what do you think about that?

[A]

I didn't hear what Jason Lee said on Drink Champs. How long ago was that?

[B]

I don't remember. But he said that he thought Rosenberg was a culture vulture.

[A]

Has he ever explained how. Because that. Look, both Jason Lee and Peter Rosenberg have been on this show.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Both friends of the show. So my thing is, all right, you make this statement. Why do you feel that he is a culture vulture? Now in this clip, all I'm getting is that he says, well, you know, you're not queer and you're not black. So you'll never really know. I think that you're equating things that aren't the same. Right? That is true. Peter Rosenberg would say that I'm not queer and I am not black, but that doesn't make you a culture vulture. He is right. A culture vulture is somebody who takes from the culture and tries to make it their own. When you did your whole thing about white vacationers, those are examples to me of culture vultures. They took, used it to their benefit, and then when it didn't benefit them anymore, or they could use it for a better purpose, for whatever reason, they did, that's a culture vulture. I would not in any way categorize Peter Rosenberg by that. That's why I say, well, does Jason Lee have more examples? Because Peter's right. Like, he has spoken out about issues. You know, when Jason's like, okay, well, it's not that. It's. It's speaking out, basically, when. When there are injustices. And he's like, well, I have done that. Yeah, I've used my platform. I've compromised, you know, my. My, I guess, profession or personal brand, because I do stand with or fight for social justice when it comes to the black and queer community. So to me, Peter Rosenberg acknowledges that he's not of the culture, but definitely has an affinity, says what it means to him, talks about it, like, gives his time, gives back to it in certain ways. But in no way does he try to say, well, because I've done all of this. I am this now. I am a part of this because I've paid my dues, I've researched, I have these friends or whatever it may be. So in no way can. In. In what world can you deem him a culture vulture? You might not like the fact that he is so close to it, but that still doesn't make him a culture vulture.

[B]

Hmm. I think there are probably two different conversations that are happening here.

[A]

I think so too.

[B]

So the one conversation is, first of all, which culture are we talking about? If we're talking about hip hop culture, then there are a lot of hip hop heads who will tell you, even though hip hop is a creation of black culture, which I certainly believe to be black and Latino culture, that hip hop culture is something that anyone can be a part of, Right? So anyone can be a part of hip hop culture. And, like, if you talk to some of the people that I talked to that were on the ground early on and throughout the rise of hip hop culture, they tell you about the Latinos, the white people, all different types of people, Asian people, that were a part of hip hop culture. And some would say, like, really helped the rise of it. As a matter of fact, when I went to Sway's event, Sway had an event, the forticulture event. Like, the event was very diverse. Like, very diverse. Obviously, hip hop is black music, but that event was very, very diverse. When you looked at all the breakers and the graffiti artists and all of that stuff, right? So if you're talking about hip hop culture, then I guess Rosenberg's entry or place into hip hop culture isn't that controversial. If you look at the whole history of it. If you're talking about black culture, it's a different thing. And this often happens. The issues that are prevalent in hip hop culture become issues that are prevalent in black culture, and the issues that prevalent in black culture become the issues that are prevalent in hip hop culture. Increasingly, as hip hop culture has sort of moved away from the things that originally defined it. So when you talked about, you know, stuff that was like breaking and DJing and graffiti and all of that stuff, that seemed to have a more diverse group of people to pull from it. But as we got hip hop becoming rap and rap becoming really inextricably linked to the state and the thoughts of black people in the country, to me, hip hop over time became blacker. It became blacker. It started off in the way that I saw it on the stage at Sway's thing, but over time, it became very distinctly the voice of black people under that. I still don't think Rosenberg is a culture vulture. But with that thought in mind, I do understand why people say it, and people say it because of one thing. Rosenberg is allowed to do something in black culture that black people aren't allowed to do anywhere else. In any culture that doesn't involve them. They're just not allowed to do it. You can't. Rosenberg is a cultural commentator. He's helped a lot of people. He's done a lot of stuff. But he also sometimes in his past has acted as a cultural hall monitor, as a person who is fighting the good fight for what he thinks should and should not happen or should and should not be said. Now, we all do that, but we really don't do it in places where we're not dominant. Like, we don't do that in other cultural spaces. The only cultural space where you can come into that cultural space and tell people, black people, that they're not following the rules is this sort of hip hop black culture that exists today. That's the Only space where you can come in and be like, that's whack. That's whack. That's whack. That's whack. And there is no space, no space where black people are allowed to do that. So when someone does do. Feels like they're doing something, they're taking advantage of the fact that they can.

[A]

Hmm. I don't know. Examples of him doing that. I just am not that well versed.

[B]

I'll give you one. And this is. By the way, this is just like the Nicki Minaj.

[C]

Yeah, okay.

[B]

Like that. Or. But this is. But remember now, Rosenberg is a hip

[A]

hop purist, and he was talking about a song. Right.

[C]

Not the person.

[B]

Right, Right. Basically, he might have been early to. You know, it might have been early, but he might. So somebody see somebody saying that he. He had. He. He had that one. Right. But. But. But he might have been early. But what I'm saying is in that, like, in that situation, you're coming in here and you're saying, like, as a white dude, you're saying what the rules are, what the rules should be, you know, and that's. That's kind of what it is.

[A]

And maybe I'm just being too much of paying attention to what the actual definition is. And maybe there's another name for it.

[B]

Right. I don't know that it would be vulturing.

[A]

And I think that is why, like, when you explain it that way, it's like, yeah, so, like, maybe you overstep. Maybe there's not a terminology quite for it, and it makes people feel a certain way. All of that is fair. I think the reason he is so reactive to what it has such a big reaction to what Jason is saying is because of the connotation of culture vulture and who that puts him in alliance with, like, who he's in company with. When you're calling him that, which. There's an easy line to draw that he is not those people. But I understand it the way that you're breaking it down.

[B]

I think that he.

[A]

But I would never call him a culture vulture.

[B]

Like, I think that he's very sincere in everything that he does. And being a culture vulture is almost doing it from a cynical place. Of course you're doing it to harvest,

[A]

like, for personal gain, right? Yes.

[B]

And so I think that's the reason why you see that reaction from him. And that's an honest reaction. It's like, what are you talking about? But I do think, though, that there are people that just. We do all of this talk, all of this stuff happens and blah, blah, blah. And be like, white boy, what the fuck you talking about? Like, just ride. Have you ever been in a car with somebody and you drive in the car and they are in your car, it's your car, and they're pointing out shit, and you like, hey, man, ride in the car.

[A]

Like, as in there, like, turn left.

[B]

They're like, yeah. I'm like, hey, ride.

[A]

I used to have a friend who's in the left.

[B]

Like, ride in the car. Like, this is our car. You ride. Now, the question is whether or not that's fair to say about hip hop. And that's a question that we've been asking for a very, very long time. Like, ask that question at fucking Eminem. You definitely gonna ask the question of Peter Rosenberg. But I thought that was an interesting exchange. It's a little cultural situation there. Oh, Rachel, you had an interesting week on social media.

[C]

Oh,

[A]

I mean, I was gonna come on here and do. First off, I appreciate your video. Yeah, that was really nice.

[B]

Yeah, it's too much.

[A]

It's really nice. But I. I'm okay.

[C]

I was gonna come out here and

[A]

do a whole, like, how sad I was about it. I was gonna do a whole thing, and then I was like, nah, I just. I don't. I. I'm trying to be nice because a lot of people are like, it's the way it's what you did. You're making fun of it. I think we should all take pride in our organ. I'm very, very nice about this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I think we should all take pride in the organizations that we belong to. I know I most certainly do. But I think that a lot of the reaction and the anger is misplaced. And I think that if you're directing it to me, you're wasting your time, because I'm not the person who should be on the receiving end of what it is that you're feeling, you know? But I understand why they're feeling that way. It's embarrassing. I would be embarrassed, too, but I wouldn't resort to personal attacks because especially when people are like, oh, you know, well, your husband took half your money. That is a fact. That is true. And guess what? I'm not going to be mad because that's a fact that happened. I can only. I have to redirect. If I did get mad, I couldn't be mad at the person who said it to me, because they're only speaking a fact. I'd have to be mad at myself or him or the system or whatever it may be. But I wouldn't get mad because it's the truth. And you know what else is the truth? Your sorority sister is a white MAGA woman. I'm sorry. It's the truth. And we just have to figure out how to not let these things happen. We just can't. And I think that's the bigger conversation. But I know people want a reaction out of me. I just. I can't give you that. You know, it's like I always say, a hit frog is gonna rib it.

[B]

Okay, okay, we gotta go. I have to ask you a question, though. Do you think that there's a difference between. And you've heard me say this, by the way. I feel so vindicated by this entire thing. I knew it. But is there a difference between the good natured ribbing that exists between these different organizations? And sometimes when it gets a little bit more toxic, Is there? What's the line? What's the line in AKA versus Delta, in Kappa versus Q?

[A]

I mean, I think when it's like petty stuff, right? Like, you know, when you play into certain stereotypes or like, even when girls are like, oh, we came first, or, you know, you let like that kind of. That's all. That's, you know, just fun, silly stuff. If I'm bringing up something that happened and you don't like the way that I said it, I mean, it is something that happened. I'm trying to think of, like, what I think the line would just be, you know, I don't know, something that was so inappropriate, outrageous to say. I think personal attacks are a little. Not the one you said, like that one that I gave as an example. I mean, that's the truth. But like, if you're gonna start talking about, like, people's appearances or, you know, stuff like that is just like, what are we doing? You should be above that. What are we doing here? Also, like, that's just like, so lowbrow. You should be better than that. But I think. And Ryan, Michelle was in the comments too, and she was like, all jokes aside, there's a bigger conversation to be had here. And I think that's kind of. And we did talk about it.

[B]

It's a bigger conversation.

[A]

We didn't clip it. But we did talk about it. Cause you asked me, you said, should a white person pledge one of these divine nine sorority or fraternities? And we had that conversation. We just didn't clip it. And I do think that's the bigger thing. And it doesn't necessarily, because a Lot of people in the comments were like, you don't think that there's Deltas that are MAGA or this? Of course, I'm sure they are, but there is a difference when it is also a white person. But we should be gatekeeping from any of that kind of thing that completely contradicts what the organization stands for. If you're maga, period, you shouldn't be a part of any of these organizations because you are supporting something that is against the direct interest of the people that exist within this.

[B]

Even if you're black.

[A]

Even if you're black.

[B]

So you're saying a black MAGA person should not be in the Divine 9 sorority.

[A]

MAG is different. I didn't say Republican. I didn't say conservative. I'm talking maga. Like, for what MAGA stands for. It stands against the very organization. It stands against the people whose shoulders you stand on to even be a part of this. It stands against history, Legacy Foundation. So any of that should be. And that's like, the bigger conversation, you know, like, we have to protect what is ours. Because with. When something is. When you become a part of something, that's a legacy. Like, with that becomes responsibility, and you have to protect that.

[B]

Yeah, see, I can't speak to that because I don't know, like, what goes into it. All I know is that Geno cried when he crossed.

[A]

A lot of people do because of the process. Like, the whole depending on what your process is. So a lot of people question me, telling me that I was paper, wanted to vet me, ask about, how do

[B]

you vet somebody about being paper or not? What do you say?

[A]

She's gonna ask a profile. Like, ask about me through the whole process.

[B]

So ask a profile. Geno cried once again, though.

[A]

A lot of people really do.

[B]

But he. But I don't know if, you know, like, Geno cried, though. He cried.

[A]

There's a bonding experience that Rachel, hold on for a second. Nobody else can relate to unless you go through it. So I can understand. I can understand the emotion behind.

[B]

Okay, but last thing I'll say before we move on from this is. I mean, he really cried.

[C]

Leechi no longer.

[B]

Like, he cried. He cried in the arms of his big brother, Mike. Shout out to Mike McLaughlin, by the way, my man. My God, it's my man. Shout out to Geno, whole family. Shout out to Ms. Jennifer. Shout out to Mr. James. Shout out to Jeremy Bullock. Shout out to the whole Geno. Got one of the greatest families ever. That's one of the greatest black families ever.

[A]

And they're all Kappas. The men?

[B]

No. So Jeremy never pledged Kappa. Geno pledged Kappa. Mike pledged Kappa and Geno. And Mike's dad is a Kappa. Ms. Jennifer's remarried. That's Jeremy's. But, you know, but Gino, he did the thing and he cried. He cried. Eddie Kane. Well, look, peace for everyone. Everybody must have peace. Okay? Everyone must have peace. It's peace. Peace be unto you. And to on the Divine Nine.

[C]

Who are you?

[B]

I'm calling right now for a truth truce amongst all of the divine nine sororities and fraternities. Peace. Peace be unto you. And I want to know what you guys think. Should people that are MAGA be involved in these sororities and fraternities? Because I think that's an interesting thing. I think you might get more pushback from that than you think that you might. I think a lot of people are going to be like, they shouldn't be echo chambers. And people. They want different types of people.

[A]

Fraternities or sororities?

[B]

Fraternities are sororities. I mean, I don't know, but see that. That's what I was saying. I don't know what the process is, so I don't know if is there. Do they, like, vet you guys ideologically? I know that they do grades, and I know with the capas, you have

[C]

to have community service.

[B]

Certain amount of shoes.

[A]

There's, you know, a certain amount of shoes. That's crazy.

[B]

They have to have a certain amount of sweaters and jeans and different things like that. They will count them up.

[A]

It's like community activity. Like, what. How are you involved in. Like, what are you involved in within the school and all? Like, there's so many different things. But I again, when I pledged, there was only Facebook, so.

[B]

Oh, you didn't really know.

[A]

So I would imagine that you would. In the same way that a job looks at people's social media behavior, I would think that you would do the same thing with being a part of these organizations.

[B]

All right, quick hidden pleasantry. Bullshit is out of the way. Donnie. Let's start with a quick end, maybe to a saga that we profiled here on Higher Learning. Chuck the builder has been arrested. Donnie the guy that goes by Chud the builder, who livestreams himself saying slurs to black people in public, was arrested and charged with attempted murder after a shooting outside a Tennessee courthouse. District Attorney General Robert Nash spoke about the incident. He said the preliminary investigation revealed there was a confrontation between Dalton Earthly, also known as Chud the Builder, and an unknown male, the Confrontation resulted in gunfire, and both men were taken for medical treatment. So aside from attempted murder, Etherly was also charged with employing a firearm during dangerous felony, aggravated assault, and reckless endangerment with a deadly weapon.

[A]

Hmm, good.

[C]

Lock em up, lock em up, Lock

[A]

em up, lock em up. You know, when we first talked about this, and I think you even said it off mic, we were kind of like, should we have discussed a broad attention to this idiot, dangerous idiot that is running around Tennessee, Nashville, and the outside areas terrorizing black people? We're like, should we have even talked about it? I'm glad we did, because we don't now. We don't have to get all into the depths of setting the stage of, you know, to talk about him shooting a black man. And when I was thinking about this too, I was like, he probably was always building up for this moment.

[B]

That's what he wanted.

[A]

He was preparing for this moment because he wanted to be a George Zimmerman. He wanted to be a Kyle Rittenhouse. And I know Kyle Rittenhouse didn't shoot a black man, but I'm just saying he wanted to be able to justify his actions. He wanted to antagonize somebody just enough to where he felt like he could justifiably shoot them and potentially kill them and then become probably revered within a certain community. And I didn't think about that the first time we talked about it. I was more focused on specifically what he was doing and how he was terrorizing to the point where even a Nick Fuentes was like, this is too much. Didn't even like it. Which we know how awful he is. I just thought of it in a very small way. And then when this happened, I immediately was like, of course this is what he was building up for.

[B]

Right. So I think also more personal information about him came out during the time that people were investigating his past. And you see that he is disturbed. He's very disturbed and has had a tremendous amount of personal issues and problems. So all of this, to your point, in my opinion, was a gigantic ruse so that he could entice someone into a confrontation and not just bear spray them, but shoot them. This is always what he wanted. I think he wanted it for the social media fame and the currency that comes along with killing a black person over a dispute like this in our current climate. But I also think he's nuts.

[A]

No.

[C]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

Yeah. And so, like, he wanted to actually just be, in my opinion, be a shooter that would run out and pop people off at random. But he was a little Bit more intentional and cynical with his. He built an entire foundation of what he said was free speech and the freedom and all of that stuff. He tried to build an intellectual bed for people to lie on and make them answer a question. Should you be able to say anything that you want? Everybody's gonna be like, oh, yeah, of course. You should be able to say whatever you want. People shouldn't get mad. And then on the backside of that, he's going and putting people in a position to really feel threatened by him so that he could kill one of them. Which is the reason why I never thought that people should actually buy into it or get into it with them, but I knew that they would because he was not just saying the word. He was getting in people's space. People would walk away, he would walk towards them. He was doing everything he could then saying, hey, I'll kill you. Hey, I'll kill you. Like inviting that confrontation. Now, I guess I'll ask you from a legal standpoint, Tennessee is a stand your ground and castle doctrine law, state individuals are allowed to use deadly force and have no duty to retreat when it is reasonably believed that serious injury, grave sexual abuse or death are imminent. Tennessee also has this fighting words law, though.

[A]

Well, shit, then everybody would have been justified in saying the N word. I mean, violence for the N word.

[B]

Well, people are trying to say that even still with Tennessee's law, provocation is considered. The use of deadly force is not justified if the person using the force provoked the encounter or consented to the violence. So that seems to wash it away. And I'll be honest with you, I don't know how the courts are gonna work down there in Tennessee. This guy seems like a menace to the community, but it seems like they have hours and hours and hours of evidence that he wanted this type of confrontation, that he wanted to provoke this type of confrontation, that he time and time again asked for it.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, there. He's been in trouble with the law a few times. I mean, there were reports that he was telling people he was a police officer from this very department. So I don't think that there's any favor towards him at all. I think that they want him off their streets and to not have to deal with him.

[C]

He's a problem.

[A]

I mean, he was live streaming this whole thing. So I think it's also gonna determine what the video, or at least the audio will show. Because he said, of course, that they hit him first. You know, that's the story that he's telling. But for Whatever reason, it clearly doesn't look that way because he's already been charged with multiple things, and it seems like there were eyewitnesses. This happened in front of a courthouse. It was public. We've seen some video, but not everything. So, I mean, I hope he's charged with all of this. If anything changes, I just hope that it's them adding more charges.

[B]

Let's say he beats it, man.

[A]

He'll be back out in the streets.

[B]

Back out in the streets. How should people deal with Chud the Builder? How should people deal with people like Chud the Builder? This is the question. Because now the fact that this guy has been able to be famous or become famous from this. This is not the last guy like this that we're going to see. So how should we revisit disease? Kids can jump in. How should people deal with people like Chet the Builder? What if this guy would have got killed? That he would have been shot?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So, like, how should people deal with them? Who gonna answer? God damn it. It's a podcast. Y' all gonna talk.

[A]

I'm thinking about. Cause at first I was like, I mean, you know, my thought is, you. You want to preserve your life. You wanna save your life. You don't wanna endanger yourself. And this guy, you know, this guy has been verbally terrorizing people and assaulting people, and now here he is shooting them as well. If he got off, you either shoot back or you run away. You avoid him. Like, you don't want any kind of encounter with him because you know what? You actually now know exactly what he's capable of doing and the way the law would handle it. I mean, I would imagine, because we both agree that this is what he wanted. He wanted to provoke this very type of situation so he could pull out his gun and kill someone. I would imagine that he has probably studied up on other people that have done it. I would imagine that he studied up on the laws. I wouldn't even be shocked if he's consulted with an attorney about how far he could go. Which is probably part of the reason that the streaming is a part of all of this.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And his story was immediately together. No, he said something. I came over. He said something to me. Then he came over in my face. He attacked me. Like, he seems to already have the narrative together. If he got out. I say avoid this man at all costs.

[B]

Bad look for Nashville overall, too, because Nashville wants to present itself as a town where people can come have fun, enjoy music and all of that stuff. You got A guy walking around downtown antagonizing people.

[A]

Armed races.

[B]

Armed races, antagonizing people. Spraying people, ruining the vibes at all kinds of situations. And I say this about Nashville, and I'll be real. Throughout the last week of Chub the Builder stuff, I saw a lot of white people. A lot of white people. Cause these videos would pop up.

[A]

A lot of white people doing what?

[B]

Checking. Chud the builder.

[A]

Oh, yeah. There's one guy who was calling him the Edward.

[B]

I saw an older white guy who, like, who was an older white guy. He was in front of the bar. I'm telling you, this guy is out of the colored casting book. I mean, that's a guy that I don't like. These colored negro. He's a nigger, these guys. That's what I saw. A guy who. I would say this a nigger white guy. And he's sitting down and Chug comes over to him. And Chug goes, I'll find a clip for you guys. Chud says, they try to kick me out. He goes, well, two of my boys are black. Get out of here. I think you should get out of here. And Chud kept going. He gets up and moves away. So it seemed like to me, I did see another white dude take a picture with Chud at the building. But it did seem like to me that the entire community of Nashville was kind of against this whole thing.

[A]

I don't know about the entire community. I mean, I saw a white boy who stole his hat, but then was saying the N word. He was calling him the N word. He was like, you wanna call black people the N word? And he said the N word, but I mean, no short of 50 times, trying to help. I don't know about the whole community, but he is terrorizing more than just black people. I mean, anybody who stands with black people. So, yeah, like, I just think that they just. This guy, they want him off the street, hopefully. Doesn't look good for him, though.

[B]

So does it look good for Chud the builder? I think that. I think that if he does get out, he might take his show on the road. Other place, Florida or whatever like that chase. Texas. Texas might be down with it. Dallas. Deep Ellum, man, he'll get fucking killed. Don't go to deep Ellum chat.

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[B]

Like they kill you in deep ellum for nothing. Football, Donnie. SEC football. Yeah. There's new calls that are popping up for black student athletes to reconsider attending schools in the SEC amid ongoing fights over voting rights and redistricting, which we have have talked about. Public figures argue that black athletes generate billions of dollars for universities located in these states, which they say are simultaneously weakening black political representation. Here is Texas representative Mark Vesey speaking on this and people are pissed off and people are sick and tired of it. Urgent people urging athletes not to go to SEC schools. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Urgent athletes not to go to SEC schools. I mean, it's crazy that we keep going to these schools. And Supreme Court said unless you play football or unless you hoop, there can be no special admissions on race. We're going to get rid of DEI programs, which is happening in my state and most states around the south. We're going to get rid of DEI programs that fire all these black employees. There have been black employees and black people that were supposed to get positions of prominence at universities that had nothing to do with sports. Those positions have been taken away. I mean, just the list goes on and on and on. And so while we're rewarding these schools with billions of dollars from kids that have been raised in our communities, while our voting rights are being taken away, while the districts that we represent are being taken away, white voices are being stripped away here on Capitol Hill. I say enough is enough. So the SEC is represented in Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Arkansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas. Tennessee as well. I don't know if I mentioned Tennessee. I'm sure I did. So those are the states or right now I have teams playing SES the whole South. I always forget how north Kentucky is. I'm looking at the map right now. Kentucky. I'm down here in Louisiana. Kentucky. To me, it's the north in a way. I Don't know why. I don't know why I feel like that. I'm looking at it, it's kind of like, look at this, look how high up Kentucky is. Look, that's Louisiana. That's where I'm from, the actual South. Look, look, look how high up the University of Kentucky this is way up here. That's like, that's the mid, it's the Midwest, man.

[A]

They're gonna come after you.

[B]

Oh, okay, that's fine. Missouri, that's like that. Okay, cool. Whatever. Mid South. Hey, shout out to Kentucky, man. Shout out to everybody. Y' all got going to fried chicken, whatever. What are your thoughts?

[A]

Well, I guess I have a question for you. How? Let's just say you started to see some athletes actually do this. You would have to see, I mean like 50% of them do it for it to be effective, right? No, you think less than that.

[B]

I think it would take 5, 5 stars to get the ball rolling. To change legislation, not to change legislation, to get the ball rolling on this, I think it would take five, five stars.

[A]

What does get the ball rolling mean? Meaning to beyond conversation.

[B]

Changing legislation is one thing, who knows if that'll ever happen. But to make this a robust movement. If you guys don't understand the way that this works is high school recruits are recruited based on the star system. It's from one to five stars, a one star and two star. Those are basically walk on athletes. Three stars are athletes that are probably good starters at smaller schools or for whatever reason are developmental kids that can come up and contribute to schools outside of like the elite colleges. Four and five stars are the kind of thing that you want your program built up of. There's a something called a blue chip ratio that measures the amount of four and five stars on every team. Now four stars is a super productive kid in high school that grades out to a quality starter and an elite school for College Football. A five star though a five star is supposed to be an NFL first round talent. Now the NFL is full of four stars, NFL's three stars. But a five star is supposed to be a bona fide NFL first round talent. These athletes are so coveted, they are so fought about. I still remember players, five star players that LSU lost legitimately from 15, 20 years ago. I still remember five star players that LSU got. I remember the day that Russell Shepard said he was signing with lsu. I remember the day that Leonard Fernet said that he was signing with lsu. I remember the day that LSU got Eric Gilbert, the Eric Sting, the LSU got. I Remember these guys and like getting these guys in, what it meant. Harold Perkins. I remember what it meant to get these five stars. They are incredibly important players. If, when I say five, five stars, I mean if that type of athlete that has that type of investment along with them, if it just started with five of them going, you know what, I can't go to lsu. I'm going to sc, I can't go to Georgia. I'm actually going to go to. I guess it would depend on what South Carolina did in terms of Clemson. I'm going to Michigan, I'm not going to Florida. I'm going here. I'm telling you right now. A conversation would begin and the coaches would start having a conversation because those players are so coveted and so valued. I legitimately think you could get it started with a handful of kids.

[A]

I mean, if we're just talking about a conversation, of course, but. But the argument that is being made here is that black athletes generate billions of dollars for these universities. So unless it impacts those billions of dollars, then it's really not going to do anything. It'll be a social media conversation. It'll be a conversation we have within ourselves. Now if those five, five star recruits make that move and then that mentality starts to trickle down and then maybe it's 10, 15, then I could maybe see it being a bigger conversation. I don't think it'll ever change legislation, but maybe that'll. There'll be something that forces it. I don't know. I just don't see it. Especially like with this Trump administration. I just don't think that it's going to be. I think, I think it's definitely got to be more than five.

[B]

Well, we're talking about two different things. So it, what to begin this, to make this real. Because right now it's just talk. I'm talking about what has to happen to make this real, to make this something that you have to consider when you are recruiting. That is the main thing. If that happens. If this has to be a question that you ask kids when you are recruiting them, whether or not you are going to play in one of these states. Recruiting is so competitive. Every single advantage in recruiting is used.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Every advantage in recruiting is used, obviously. Facilities, your alumni base, your pipeline to the NFL, of course, now nil, all of that stuff is used. If there is a social component to this that a school that is also willing to pay a player. Right. Can weaponize. If there's a social component to this that can become something that depresses the value of a lot of these schools in their competitive market, you can say, hey, why would you want to go play in the state that you're not free? But in order to make that real, this is my point. In order to make that real, you need high profile players that do it, for sure. I'll give you an example and then I'll say something else about this. Now, this example is going to be somewhat controversial because this guy ended up being a real piece of shit. There's a player, his name, Keller Winslow II. You remember him? K2 went on to the U. I

[A]

think we've told the story here, right?

[B]

So K2, when he was getting recruited, Kellon Winslow II is a piece of shit, okay?

[A]

Beyond.

[B]

Beyond a piece of shit, right? He's a dangerous, terrible, like, generational criminal, right? So it's a terrible abuser of women. When he was getting recruited, his father had said, Kellen Winslow, his father was a Hall of Fame, a tight end. His father had said he would only play for a black coach. That became such a conversation. Now, that didn't end up happening, but the conversation ended up being, what would happen?

[A]

You did that.

[B]

That was. She fell again, man.

[A]

You did that.

[B]

What's going on with her? That's the pressure from the akas. So what would happen if that happened wholesale, if that happened across the board? Would these guys be able to put black men in these jobs?

[C]

Right.

[B]

So we've been having this conversation. The only problem is this. There's something tricky that would happen here to me. So if you are this gentleman or anybody else that's going to ask a recruit to leave their home and go from Louisiana to California or Seattle, wherever, to go play college football, are you then going to say that the Essence Fest should move from New Orleans?

[C]

Mm.

[B]

Are you then gonna say that a lot of the things that black people go to the south for, to celebrate all of this other stuff, all of the economic, are those things gonna have to move? And the reason why I'll say that is because. The reason why I'll ask that question is because for a lot of these kids, it's about money. It's about all of that stuff. It's about playing for the school, but also it's also about the easiest pathway to the NFL for them, the easiest pathway to becoming a professional athlete.

[A]

And.

[B]

And some of them are gonna be like, you're gonna hear stories like, hey, I went over here and I got homesick. My parents couldn't watch me play, they couldn't come to the games. I couldn't get home on the weekends or like whatever, whatever weekends in the off season. And that fucked with my head and I didn't perform as good. Like me staying home for a lot of kids, particularly the young black man for the south, that helps them, that helps them in their college careers, that then helps them in their pro careers. If you're asking them to give that up, you can't ask them to do it by themselves. And you can't put the entire future of the state on 18 and 19 year old kids. If they're being asked to sacrifice something. Then as soon as I saw this, the very next thing I saw was legitimately in my algorithm the announcement of who's coming to Louisiana for the Essence Festival. Right. So we'd have to talk about this being a part of a wholesale economic boycott of states where black people's voting rights have been severed in half.

[A]

Yeah, I think there's little bit of a difference though for like the impact that affecting a university that serves white people more than black people. It serves their interest in regards to sports, it serves their interest in regards to money, alums, education, grant, all of that, that affects them so deeply. As opposed to the Essence Festival festival, which is for us. I'm not saying that that's not something that doesn't bring money to the city.

[B]

Then the super.

[A]

I know, I didn't say. I'm not saying it doesn't bring money to the city, but not in the same way. That. Which is why I think it started like with this first of boycott of SEC schools. Because this is something that white people will feel right. And impact it too. So I get what you're saying about ESSENCE and like broadening out past. Broadening. Broadening it out past sports. But I don't think it's like an ex. I don't think it's. Will have the same impact.

[B]

Well, it's. What I'm saying is. Well, it just depends on what you believe black people's economic dollars worth.

[A]

Well, I'm talking about affecting white people though.

[B]

Well, I'm talking about like if the Superdome is owned by white people. So if you move the festival to a place, if you move it to Detroit, the Superdome is gonna feel that. Right? And the Superdome and the city of New Orleans. Now there are a lot of black people that are going to be hurt by that. The argument that you could make is there are gonna be less black people that would be hurt by this because they can go play at other schools. What I would say is that for a lot of them, these athletes are generational lottery tickets for them. And if they go play at another school outside of their home state where they're from, they're young. If it doesn't work out, you're gonna hear a lot of people saying, like, I'm putting it on the line, and I'm doing it on my own. So I think this would have to be a part of. And I think we should talk about this. A broader economic effort to defund some of these states of black dollars, especially black dollars that we're traveling to these states to do. You got to spend money in your communities down there in the south and all of that stuff. But if we're traveling to different places, would NABJ have the NABJ conference in a place where one of these states have been gerrymandered like that? They probably shouldn't. If this is what we're doing, if this is what we're doing, we can't ask the young athletes to do it by themselves.

[A]

I mean, I think that this is a really interesting conversation and how we possibly could mobilize against some of the things that we're seeing Supreme Court in this administration do. It's really interesting.

[B]

You hit him. Hit him where it hurts.

[A]

I get it.

[B]

Five. Five stars. That's five. Five stars.

[A]

You need more than that.

[B]

Five, five stars. Like right now, we got Easton Royal. Look, I don't know. So we're not on it yet. Easton go to lsu. So we not. Okay, so we.

[A]

Wrong show.

[B]

We're not on it. We're not on it yet. When the boycott really begins. I won't say this, but Easton, bro, don't go to Texas. See, Rachel. Rachel not even tapped in. LSU and Texas are fighting for a kid right now. The kid is from Louisiana. The young man ran a 10, 100 from Easton. Go to LSU until we get the plan together. Then you can't even go to Texas. Then Easton, you got to go to Arizona State.

[A]

We're number one right now, huh?

[B]

In recruiting?

[A]

No, no, no. Ranked number one.

[B]

Yeah. It's Fleet. We'll have to see what Arch does.

[A]

I hate that they did that, though. Not again. Not again. Not again. No, come on. You know, that was. That was one of my jobs at ut. I was a Texas angel. I was a Texas angel. I was involved in the recruiting process.

[B]

Did you. I want you guys to go back. I want you guys. I want you guys to go back and isolate Donnie. Did you hear? Did you hear, Bernard?

[A]

It was confusion.

[B]

Hold on, hold on. Hold on, Donnie. Hold on for a second. Donnie, did you hear? Bernard didn't. The mic. Didn't pick it up. I didn't. Thank you, Jesus.

[A]

It never happened. It never happened.

[B]

Like Rachel said, that was one of my jobs at ut. But no, I went

[A]

and. Let me further explain. Thank you for being. It doesn't even exist a chance.

[B]

We could hear it. But. Yeah, it's a chance. Hey, you gotta. But not.

[A]

It doesn't exist anymore.

[B]

Y. He got game. I know, cuz. They got rid of all of this

[A]

because after that Colorado scandal.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

They renounced.

[A]

Reorganized it. I still was an angel, but they reorganized it. But, yeah, like, I was involved. We'll talk to families and. And the players and show them around and sit with them at the games and just like, let them know how great of a university it is. But it was just centered around the games.

[B]

Cool. All right. We're gonna take a break. You know what's funny? You know why I'm saying this.

[A]

I've never told you that.

[B]

Obviously, I didn't know. Obviously, he's joking. You know what? Because whenever. This is funny to me. If you follow college football. If you follow. Go. I want y' all to look right now. Go look at any college football program. When you look at the recruiting director on campus, recruiting person is always a Rachel. Or it's always. It's never a n. That look like. Hold on, man.

[A]

Not in Texas right now.

[B]

No, I'm talking. What I mean is there's a specific position at the school that is a charge of showing the people around and being the liaison and all of that stuff. And it's always a Rachel. As a matter of fact, LSU got in trouble because a couple of years. We're not gonna go back.

[A]

Don't do it.

[B]

We're not gonna go back. I'm just saying, Bernard, we don't get that job, you know? Cause we. What? What? What the nigga gonna look like when we take him around campus. Hey, bro, you trying to get some food? No, that's not gonna work.

[A]

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[B]

It's like, hey, hi. You want to come to campus? That's what they want to see. All right, we're going to take a break real quick. Special guest on the show right now, Tiffany D. Cross. You guys are familiar with Tiffany Cross. She has been a staple and a mainstay in media for a long time and she is now an author. This is your first book.

[C]

Second.

[B]

Second book. Second book here. So she's already been an author. Shame on me. Love me. A Letter to Black Women in a Toxic Country, Career and Relationship. Wow. A book about black women. Now, when you flip to the inside of the page, the first line here is really interesting to me. Thank you for joining us on Higher Learning. I want to get right to it. First question, will we ever get back the love we give?

[C]

Hmm, profound. Yes.

[B]

Well, what made you ask that question?

[C]

Can I just take a moment before I answer and say I'm so excited to be on this podcast.

[B]

Oh, very special.

[C]

Well, because I was talking to Van about, like, the book and he was telling me, you should do this podcast. You should do this. And I was like, your podcast to me, like, that is in my bag. Like, those are people I talk to. Like, this is where I would feel at home talking about it.

[A]

Thank you.

[C]

So I'm thrilled that you guys have me as a guest today. Van and Rachel, and very happy to be, because a lot of the podcasts are not necessarily co ed. So I'm happy to have two people here to get into the book. And it'll be different perspectives, I'd imagine, for us.

[B]

I mean, not necessarily because the book is for me.

[C]

The book is to me, right? It is. I literally wrote two black women, but I hope black men read it, you know, to gain insight, because y' all got mamas and sisters and cousins and girlfriends and partners and all the things, but it was definitely two black women. I literally pictured faces of black women I would pass on the street. You know, when you're writing, you're writing to someone. So I had to constantly picture all the beautiful black women I would cross paths with, whether I knew them personally or just walk past them. So the question, will we ever get back the love we give the answer is, I hope so. And for a more definitive answer to say yes, I think I get back the love I give when I'm in the presence of other black women. And this is true. You know, it doesn't mean that black men don't love us because I don't believe that like I do. I feel loved by black men. But the love I give and the love we give, it is overflowing, you know, it is plush. And I feel that in the presence of other black men or other black women. I love black men very much and I enjoy them. But there's nothing like spending time with black women in deep conversation who understand me and love me and get me in a way that I don't have to accept. I can let it hang. I'm not sucking it in. I'm not tight. I'm not on guard. I'm just relaxed. And there's something safe about that.

[B]

What would it look like to get back the love that you give overall outside of the bubble of black women?

[C]

Yeah, I think. I think in a tangible, out loud way, because I don't know that that's a blanket response for every woman. So for me, that can be in different ways. So the book is not necessarily about relationships with black men and black women, but it's about pouring our love into a country that isn't pouring love back into us. It's about pouring our love into careers that isn't pouring love back into us. And it's about pouring love into our counterparts, black men, that we don't always feel that out loud, tangible love back. So I think each of those instances, those buckets of love look different. To pour our love into a country that isn't loving us back. It would look like one the country trusting us with leadership. After all, we poured into this country to be defined as the enslaved. You had to come through the womb of a black woman. Like, we made this country a superpower, and yet we are not trusted to lead this country. Yet its very policies, the bones of America are rooted in our oppression, our destruction. We would have to disrupt that and reimagine, can we be at home here. To pour our love back into our careers and get that love back would be fairness to tilt the scale in our favor. Right now I have a theory that a lot of white people don't believe in themselves in a. So that's why they like to tilt the scales in their favor. While we'll look at this imbalance and say, now watch me leapfrog over all of them. And still succeed. And so we survive. But I don't know about y'.

[B]

All.

[C]

I'm tired of surviving. Like, I'm ready to thrive. When we look at the wealth gap and the pay scale, the inequities and throughout our entire. In every aspect of careers, and I go into the data about this, and of course, I talk about my own challenges. Navigating a newsroom and being successful, Being successful, bringing over 4.64 million monthly viewers to a network. And they said, no, we don't want it and we don't like you. You're not centering white people's comfort. You have to go. That's not getting the love back. It would be. Yes, you're on equal footing. And we thank you for bringing these new viewers. We can tap you to host specials and have a primetime show and do all the things that other people get to do. I never got that. And a lot of other women, black women, aren't getting that. And then from our counterparts, for me, it would be a love that's companion love that is not questionable, that is rooted in living in service to a partnership, not to an individual, but something that reflects what we've always had to survive this 400 year nightmare. Just a relaxed, safe space. Not these foolish things about who's high value and what you bring to the table and all that like, toxic conversation, but something that we relax into each other and ascend in a space of love beyond a place of right and wrong. Just ascend with each other in a place of love.

[A]

It's interesting because as I was reading the book, I think I didn't. As black women, we can just be. We're just in go mode, right? You discuss this in the book. And I just kept thinking, I don't even realize all the ways that I give myself to people. Family, friends, professionally, society. But as I was reading the book, I'm like, wow, I do that too. Wow, I do that too. There's just so much that we do. Which is why you talk about you tired, you're exhausted, and reading through it, it's like, man, we really do it all. It feels like. And then as you're reading the book also, you see so many ways. I mean, we feel this, but you give examples of ways that we don't get that love back the way we don't feel loved, or we're even kind of told. People are told not to love us a certain way. I want to know, just as a general question, what do you love about being a black woman?

[C]

I love the commonality of our experience. I feel you're a Delta, but I belong. We belong to the largest sorority in the country.

[A]

That's true.

[C]

Born into this sorority of black women. And so if you have a room full of black women, there's an energy. It's almost tangible. It's palpable. There's an energy among us. If one person comes in that room and they don't look like us, the energy is off. Now, if a black man comes in the room, it's still some safety, but the energy has tilted right. If a white person comes in the room, now we're a little tighter. Now we feel a little less safe. We gonna watch what we say. There are things I can say to you and I sitting here. Our brother Van is here. We love Van, but you and I sitting here can have an entire conversation with our eyes and not say a word. Like, I know if Van says something we disagree with, we can communicate. Like, I don't know about that, but I don't have to say that out loud. There is something beautiful about that. There's nothing anybody can offer me that would. That could make it appealing for me to lose that trust with you. I don't know you well, Rachel, but I know you well, I know you. You know, you don't know me well, but you know me. I belong to you. You belong to me. And it's so. The bond is so thick that even if you and I didn't like each other personally out there, it doesn't matter. Like, I might not like you personally, but out there, I love you. Like, you And I might not, you know, we could walk in the room like, yeah, hey, hey. And, you know, we might not speak, but out there, can't nobody say anything about Rachel. They can't get their hands on you because you belong to me and I belong to you. So there's a love that's instituted immediately. So I love that about us. And Rachel and I like each other fine. But, you know, there are women that you. You know, these things happen that they may not be your favorite person. Correct.

[A]

But there's a protection.

[C]

There is a protection.

[A]

There should be.

[C]

Right? There should be. Precisely. Every now and then, we come across one who is not like us, as they say. But for them, I assume. I assume the best. And I assume that there are people. When I see you, I assume safety.

[A]

I love the way that you put that. Then, as I was reading the book too, like, there's just so many thoughts that I had. And before we got on, I Was saying how a friend, a mutual friend, Clarence Hill was at one of your book tour stops and he says that he bought the book for his daughters. So thinking future. And as I was reading it, I kept thinking, this is love letter to us in the present, but also towards the future. Who is somebody that you wish would have read this book, that could have read this book?

[C]

Me. Me. I wrote the book that I wish I had. I wrote this book to black women, but I wrote this book for 15 year old Tiffany, you know, for 12 year old Tiffany who felt unprotected and never really believed that I was lovable or worthy of things. And so, you know, like you said, I'm at this space, this middle age, and I'm looking back and there's a knowing that comes being this age, there's a wisdom. I'm weathered by the wisdom of life. And when I meet younger women, you know, maybe 30, 28, whatever, and I'm, I look at them and I know, I'm like, there's a knowing I have you, you haven't met yourself yet. You know, you're just getting settled into yourself. You know, when young people, I'm sure this happens to you all the time where they're like, will you be my mentor? You know, And I'm like, I'm still trying to figure it out myself, you know? Right. But when you speak to them, it's like, oh, I do have a wisdom that you have not yet earned. You know, there are things that I can impart upon you. And I'm meeting myself at this iteration of life for the first time. I'm connecting with myself and discovering and falling in love with this person at this age. And I try to in the book strike the balance because I'm 47 and so looking to women who are maybe 65 and looking at me saying, yeah, you're going to meet yourself about three or four more times. And they're looking at me, seeing me walk down the road. They say, keep going, we'll see you when you get here. So I'm looking to women doing that and I know there are women calling me, doing that. And that chain of life and love, knowing what we carry. We are carrying our grandmother's grandmother's grandmother's pain. Knowing what we carry, that comes with a heavy weight, responsibility, but also love. And so being at this point in this generation, that heaviness, I wanted to give ourselves permission to lay our burdens down. And we were carrying swords, you know, protection. I wanted to lay that sword down and meet Myself with open arms and not a weapon. And meet other people. Give other people permission to lay their weapons down and just meet each other in love and solidarity and safety. Love it.

[B]

What does meeting yourself look like? When do you know you've met yourself? How do you meet yourself?

[C]

What happens when you meet yourself? Ann, you'll know I've met myself a long time ago. Well, I wouldn't know what it looked like for you, but I'll tell you what it looked like for me. For me, it was a level of authenticity. I thought I was an authentic person, but those voices were always in my head. You know, there was only one version of me. And there is. There's only one version of me. Whether the cameras are rolling. We were talking before the camera started rolling. You know, this is gonna be the same person. We would sit here and have the same conversation where there are cameras or not. And I've always been that way. You know, what you see is what you get. But there were still voices that I heard that told me I didn't deserve. And those voices were so loud and instituted from a lot of things that at times I couldn't tell if those voices were coming from the inside or the outside. And so acknowledging that those voices existed and then chasing those feelings, where did they come from? Where did the idea come from that I am not lovable? And so you can do it in a, you know, oh, this bad relationship made me feel like I'm not lovable. But forcing myself to sit in the pain of that and chase that feeling, like, no, you didn't feel unlovable because of him. You felt unlovable before that. So chase that feeling. Where did it come from? Or feeling unworthy. You didn't feel unworthy because you lost your show. Chase that feeling. Sit in the pain and chase that feeling. Don't escape yourself. Don't escape yourself with somebody else to take your mind off things. Don't escape yourself in food. Don't escape yourself with hanging out with friends. Sit in the quietude of your thoughts and chase those feelings. And dismantling some of the lies that I had been told or some of the lies that I believe that I told myself. Giving voice to my umbrage and my anger, Letting the tears flow with again without trying to escape it. It was an unveiling and unmasking and really looking at myself in the mirror and not pretending to be the hero in that mirror, you know, like seeing myself and all my flaws and all the ugliness, you know, that was there. And learning to see that as not ugliness, but just a part of who I am. So it's not like, oh, I've met myself, I'm done. It is a journey of self discovery. Just like there's no such thing as healed. It is a journey of self discovering and healing. And like, this is not a memoir, you know, this is a piece of me. And I wanted to give language to those dark that we don't say out loud, that we may not say at brunch tables with our girlfriends. But I wanted to put that on the pages so other women might journey inward too.

[B]

Me meeting myself was the certainty of purpose. That's it. Like, I know who I am and what I'm trying to do, and therefore every scab and callous that I get along with, that I wear it proudly. There's nothing that once I understood that I meant well, that I try, that I endeavor. I'm comfortable with anything else that happens and any other obstacle that comes into my purview. And this is probably the man thing, is my singular duty to rise above the obstacle. But it is. It's all rooted back in purpose, like what I believe and who I want to be. And that was hard. It was hard because the way I was socialized was to. In this very specific, very rigid definition of manhood. And it didn't matter how you did something, you know, it only mattered, like, why you did it. So if I'm trying to keep you safe, then I can berate you. If I'm trying to keep you safe, then I can control you. If I'm trying to keep you safe, then I can be unfeeling with you. Because at the end of the day, I'm trying to keep you safe. My purpose is to go to the place that I'm going in a humanistic way. Way with my values intact. And so for me, once I realized that, like, it, I wasn't soft because I cry, that I wasn't weak, because I'm curious that I wasn't flighty or flaky because I'm sometimes unsure that all of those things were a part of me. Everything else I kind of let go. And that was that. That was a combination of the lessons that I got from the men that were around me and also watching how their lives turned out.

[C]

Yeah. You know, it's interesting because. So my sense of purpose and meeting myself were on two parallel tracks. And I think in meeting myself, the two merged because my sense of purpose was always clear. I was never unclear about that. My sense of Purpose was always to live in service to the liberation of black folks, which liberates everybody. Meeting myself like one was what I offered the world, what I showed up to the world to offer. Meeting myself required of me to ask the world of something, you know, to ask the world or to declare myself worthy in the world. I don't know that it was asking permission, but to declare myself worthy of whatever this world had to offer to seize it, but to declare it so that there was no outside entity that could deny that of me. So, I don't know. I'm trying to. I'm trying to weigh balance.

[B]

So being that I'm a man, the way that I was raised was that my worth was in protection and producing. So my father would always say that, like, you're not a man unless somebody relies on you.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Right? So unless, like, I would look at him, look back and forth, and he'd look at me, he'd be like, you think you're a man? I'd be like, yeah. He goes, well, a man doesn't take care of another man. A man takes care of people. So you'll be a man when you have someone to take care of, when you have someone to take care of, when someone relies on you. That's manhood. Man is all. But under that, it was kind of oppressive with him, right? And all the men in my family, smiles and stuff, but burdened, very burdened. So my, like, me coming to my purpose was defining what my life meant for me by myself. Like, regardless of everything else that everyone told me that I had to be, those things are still important to me, don't get me wrong. But my purpose was, you know, if I want to be 22 years old and go hang out at the VO arcade all day at a lock in, that they're not going to be people who ridicule me for that and try to make me feel like I was bad for being with my friends at the video arcade.

[C]

Rachel has done this, okay?

[B]

And not out in the streets, like, making, like, you know what I'm saying?

[C]

You're safe here.

[B]

VAN Exactly. So my purpose was in embracing who I am and understanding that the way I was raised is parts of you can subtract from what it is that you're trying to do. So it didn't matter anything that you did if you were gay. It didn't matter anything that you did if you were unsure. And so in embracing myself, knowing that I'm going to a specific place, but I'm all of these things that My father and my brothers and all of these men weren't. I was more confident than I've ever been in who I am. And that way I can be of service and a part of community, not just the leader, but the led, like a part of a community.

[C]

It's interesting, though, as a man, how you're describing purpose and meeting yourself. It still feels very different, I think, from certainly what I write and how I think women would define purpose in meeting themselves. But it's pretty consistent, I think, with men, so it makes sense. So I'm just taking you in. I'm talking about it. Rachel, do you feel like you've met yourself?

[A]

I feel like I will continue to meet myself because my life looks so different from in the last 10 years, you know, and even what I thought five years ago for me is not moving forward. I'm in a. You know, I'm recently divorced. A life I had planned for myself is no longer going to happen, at least with that person and in that way. And so I'm working on writing right now because I'm discovering new things, things about myself. And that's why, when I was listening to you talk, I kept thinking of the word. How refreshing it must be for you to come, like, to come to the place that you are right now and discovering certain things about yourself. And one of the things you write about, and you just kind of talked about, too, is vulnerability. And you kind of mentioned it when you said, because I feel like I was raised, that it was a weakness to a point. And, you know, like, that can be something that's just passed down from generation to generation. But in therapy, I learned actually being vulnerable and is a strength in the way that you're able to do it. And so for you, in this book, I know you said, and it's not a memoir, but it does feel so personal. So it kind of felt like that. And I appreciated that, and I appreciated the vulnerability, which I do believe is such a strength. And one of the things. I don't know if this ties the two together, but I felt like my purpose for so long was just to my identity. And my identity was tied to my career. My identity was tied to specific things. And the more vulnerable I got with myself as I go through these seasons, I'm realizing that's not the case, and I kind of have to separate that for you. In writing this book, were you shocked at how vulnerable you were? And did you feel like you had to hold back in any kind of way? Because you do really lay it all out there, which I relate to. Like, even in my notes. I was writing stuff, and I was like, thank you. Thank you for saying this, like, when it came to men. And I'll use the line in a second, but yes. Were you surprised? Were you shocked at the way you were?

[C]

Not. Not when I was writing. Okay, I'm shocked. I've been on book tour, and I'm shocked when somebody will repeat something back to me, and I wince. You know, I'm like, how dare you bring up my personal business her. You know, I'm like, oh, bitch, you wrote that. You know, like, you actually put that out there for public consumption. So writing felt very cathartic, you know? And like I said, I. I pictured black women, so I didn't want to bullshit people, you know, I didn't want to paint this pretty picture of myself. And you've read books by people where it's like, okay, you the hero in every story. You know, you've talked to people where, you know, they're. They're. They always come out the wiser in every story. And I wanted to put my ugliness out there. I wanted to put my pain, my hurt, my flaws, because I see that in other women. They might try to hide it away or, you know, lash it away or all the things that we do, but I saw it. And so I thought, we know each other, and you can read a book where you can tell if it's authentic or not. And so for me, I thought it very important to be authentic. From writing about my mother, to relationships, to hate texting to this country, to my frustrations, to my pains, my embarrassment, to my shame, all of those things. Because if I cannot trust putting my story in the hands of other black women, then it would say so much about how I felt about myself that there was something wrong with my experience, that there was something less than to my thoughts. And I just. I refused to do that this time. Now I was in therapy. I'm still in therapy, but this was, like, years of therapy before I even started writing. Ongoing therapy. When I was writing and Chrisean Van and I share an editor. Chrisean asked when I was signing the contract. She was like, oh, before we sign, can we confirm that you're actually in therapy? I was like, yes, I am in the. Because she said, like, people will write, start the writing process, and, like, have breakdowns and, you know, and she's like, we want to make sure that you're, like, ready for this journey. So, yeah, I thought I owed that to black women. And it Delights me that you feel that in the pages, because that was very much my intention.

[A]

Was there a fear from you? Just because the book also talks about feeling safe and something that we desire. I'll just say for men in general, because, like, there's so many ways that we don't feel safe. And so when we let our guard down and we are vulnerable, one of those things that we're craving is safety, because we don't get that in so many other places in this society. Were you scared in or fearful in putting that out there that someone would try to weaponize that against you? And if you weren't, is that because you are like, I know healing is an ongoing thing, but because of. Of, you know, what you've. Where you are right now, I. I

[C]

don't think I was ever fearful of that, but I anticipate it, yes.

[A]

And how do you feel now, like, with the reception and everything?

[C]

I anticipate at some point somebody will try to weaponize something I put in the book, but I'm completely fine with it, you know, and also, like, I was on air, you know, people. Every single time people see you before they hear you, people have an opinion about everything you do. And so being hosting live tv, there was always an opinion, you know, from, like, something I wore, my makeup, my hair. I was used to public opinion. This was a little different because it's not. My analysis is not intellect. It's not something political. It is all of those things in the book. But so many parts were very tender pieces of myself. And I had seen people try to ridicule other women or just be, like, shitty. And it's not just men. Like, I've seen other women do that to other women, which I also write about. So, you know, there is a thickening of the skin that happens when you're out there in the world. So I don't fear it, but I do. I anticipate it. And I don't know, I feel, like, fine. You know, overwhelmingly, like, women have been very receptive and excited, and men who've read the book have been very receptive and excited and reflected on their own choices and behaviors with women. They've said, I had no idea that I had hurt so many women until I read men in their 50s. I'm like, really? You had no idea? But men in their 50s have told me. I've recorded a couple podcasts with some older men who have reflected on that. And I'm like, well, good. I want you to heal the pain that we felt because I Think.

[A]

When you have a public platform, you're used to just talking, speaking your mind, having a feeling. So just saying what you feel. But then when you talk to people who aren't in this space, you realize that it is not easy for people to speak what's on their mind or say how they feel or be vulnerable or whatever that that might be. And I think what resonates and is going to continue to resonate for a lot of women is that you are saying things that people are so afraid to say because it goes against what they've been taught, what they've been told by their families, by their religion, by the patriarchy. I mean, hearing you talk about children, hearing you talk about love, that's where I think women, Black women particularly, will read this and say thank you for saying that, because it makes me feel like you feel like you have to be a certain way. You have to walk a certain way. As a black woman, you have to be so careful. And I think that it's very freeing to read your words and feel like it's okay. And I'm not alone. And I think that's also what's so

[C]

beautiful about the community. We are never alone. In my darkest, in the depths of my darkness, when I felt isolated and I looked around and there were other black women down there with me, I knew I was not alone. I was not alone. And, you know, to be honest about those times where we splinter and, you know, I had a black woman who was not so kind to me, and I write about that. And even in those moments, I try anyway to give even her grace. Because I'm like, you're navigating a system that taught you to be this way. I'm navigating a system, and I buck the idea of being that way. But I don't believe, like, you know, I've been subject to someone's inherent evilness. I think we can all be victims of the system, survivors of it.

[B]

How does the system affect the way we treat each other?

[C]

To you? Oh, God. I. So what I write about in the book, I think in my situation, I had a black woman boss. Boss. And like I said, when you navigate a system in a way that's. I'm learning how to be from them. And so we can be so excited to see someone in that space. Like, we're celebrating you becoming a black version of them because you think this is my way to success. And so when you come across someone like me who has bucked the system at every chance, who have said no, you Know, fuck that. I'm not. I'm not living like that. I am not centering white people's comfort. I'm going to be my authentic self. I'm not. Not code switching. Like, what you see is what you get. And we land at equal spaces where we have both achieved some level of success. The person who followed the white man's rules can sometimes resent the person like me. It's giving. Who's that up there on that horse? Energy, you know, it affects how we treat each other because this person feels like, how dare she? Like, I followed all the rules and she broke all the rules. And we land here at the same time. I think that creates a mentality of envy and resentment. I think when it comes to friendship, this hasn't been my experience, but I've heard stories that I just. I can't even relate to. But in my circle of friends, we are all in the same industry for the most part, or all like public interfacing on some level. And so we may all be going after the same opportunities. We may all be on the speaking circuit. We have bucked this idea of lack. And we do not maneuver from a space of scarcity. We share salary information. We share how much somebody's paying us for showing up someplace. We share opportunity. My intention has always been, I want to make sure everyone in my life is doing something dope. I want to make sure everybody around me is well positioned. Because if that's the case, one that's just our community. That's what we do for each other. But also, if that's the case, would it not make sense that should I fall if everybody around me doing something dope, then they will all be in a position to catch me. And I have a sisterhood like that. The morning my show was canceled, I was so dumbfounded. But eventually I had to let the group chat know. Right now the group chat is Joy Reid, who would eventually meet the same fate. Jamel. You know Jamel. Jamel Hill, Kerry Champion, Angela Rye, Sunny Hostin at the View. Brittany Packnet Cunningham, activist. Alicia Garza, founder of Black Lives Matter. Aaron Haynes, president nabj. Latasha Brown, founder of Black Voters Matter. I had all these women that group chat immediately turned into Olivia Pope overnight. Like, they went into action, crafting statements, looking at contracts, like, being very targeted and focused. There was even a woman, this white woman, who started reaching out to me, like, you know, Variety wants to talk to you and Page Six is asking for a quote. And I didn't know why she was doing all this, but she was kind of coordinating press. And I later found out she was doing that because Sunny Hassan paid her to do that. I mean, I just had women praying over me, being around me. Angela was like chief of staff to the blacks. I was surrounded. And to me, that is our way of, like, we're bucking the system. You know, we want everybody to succeed. We rise collectively, and I would do the same for them. I write about getting into a fight at a fast food restaurant when I was younger, and everybody came ready to, like, throw hands, you know, it was like, oh, we wanna throw some knuckles today. Whether you were involved or not, that's how I feel. If somebody messed with Rachel, they didn't mess with Rachel, they messed with us. Yeah. And I think that's how we have to start maneuvering. So I think the system tries to divide. Tries to promote this idea that men and women are at war. Tries to promote this idea that black men are voting for Trump. Tries to promote this idea that there's only so many. So much for us, there's only so many men for you, there's only so many jobs for you. So you have to compete. But I just. I don't. I've never adopted that attitude. I've always felt like our sisterhood, our community, is the most important thing.

[B]

What do you think the glitches in the communication between black men and black women that seemingly exist? I'm not so sure how much they actually exist. Yeah, that seemingly exist. Where do you think those glitches are coming from?

[C]

So I want to just say, I don't know that there are glitches. I think it is our algorithm that is intentionally feeding us those things, trying to give the impression that there are glitches. But I know so many amazing Black men who show up, who showed up for me then and who will show up for me today. They belong to me. The world cannot tell me who black men are. So I think we have different ways of processing things. I think the way we maneuver in society now ask more of our Black. We ask more of each other. But I don't know that there are glitches. I know people who are happily partnered to black women, who are happily raising black children, who have been married 20, 30 plus years, who live blissfully. So those are the examples. I know black men who. I write about Black men who support black women unapologetically. That when my show got canceled, one of the first calls I got was from Will Packer saying, I'd love to be in the Tiffany Cross Business. How can we partner with.

[B]

Did the same thing for me.

[C]

Why are you always trying to like. It is my story. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

I'm sorry.

[C]

That was me.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Because I just want everybody to know the only thing wrong with Will is the famu thing.

[C]

Other than that, well, you know, rattlers ride hard, so we give.

[B]

The only thing is that. But Will is an awesome guy.

[C]

Yeah. But he's a great example of, like, I'm in a position to catch you when you fall. Like, I'm going to do that. And not as a favor. But he genuinely believes in Van. You know, he generally saw, you know, talent there and same. So, yeah, I. And I write about other people who may not be household names, but, yeah, I don't believe that there are really glitches. And I think for black women, it is. It is our highest honor to love our men. It's our highest. One of our highest honors to. We don't just have a desire to be loved. We have a desire to love. So when we take this delicate love and offer it to somebody, it means so much to us. And all that we ask is that you be delicate with it, that you treat it with the care it deserves.

[B]

Beautifully said. The reason why I say glitch is because two things. I'm ontra what's happening on social media. Obviously, I'm chronically online, way too online, and so the conversation's obviously super, super toxic on there. But then in conversations with. With actual black ladies that are incredibly intelligent and cultured, you hear a lot. It seems like over the course of the last X amount of years, their frustration. And I'm not about to continue. I always say, like, we had Jamilah Lemieux up here, you know, and she talked about, you know, the coupling in Los Angeles, and I'm like, single black mother. Single black mother, yes.

[C]

Her book.

[B]

Yeah, her book. We had her up here. She talked about coupling in Los Angeles and, like. And I said, well, there are parts of Los Angeles where you can go there. Like, if I go to the Court Cafe this weekend, then I'm gonna see nothing but black families in there. If I go to the solo house, I'm gonna see different. You know what I'm saying? So I'm gonna see nothing but black families in there. So, like, maybe you're la. The LA that you're talking about where black men are not looking for black women, maybe that's not the entire la. But these ideas, though, they are pretty persistent. Why do you think you think it's the algorithm, like totally.

[C]

You know, because I'm hearing you say that about la and I've always lived and navigated black ass cities, so maybe LA is.

[B]

That's a thing for me though, right? Cause I'm from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, so my entire tradition is black men, black women, black family, everything black.

[C]

Do you see that as much in la? Well, I mean, Rachel's saying no, it's

[A]

not as much in LA as much.

[B]

Well, so this is what I would say to that. I'm being for real. Hold on for a second. It depends on what your LA is. My LA is a lot of different places that people don't go for the la. And also the men that I know that are even here, that's their thing. Once again, I could drop names, but I'm not gonna put nobody business out there. The men that I know, I don't know. These guys that you guys are talking, not me.

[C]

So you're saying the men, you know, rock with black women or they. So let me just say. Cause I do.

[B]

The men that I know so like.

[C]

But the men that you know.

[B]

Then there are some others. What are you talking about?

[C]

Okay, okay.

[A]

Try to be respectful of what you have in here.

[B]

Okay, okay. There are. Okay. There's, you know, there's some. There's some riders. Yes, you know, you know what I mean?

[C]

But like those men exist. The men who deal with white women exist. But let me just say, according to

[B]

the data, there are some.

[C]

Yes,

[B]

but I'm just being for real because she. Because I know. We know. You know, shout out to them, by the way, man, y' all do whatever

[C]

y' all doing, okay? Yeah, please go where? Go where you want it. But the point is, the data shows that we have some of the highest endogamy rates of any community. Black men overwhelmingly marry black women like upwards. So more than 80% don't feel that.

[A]

That's what I'm trying to get publicly. Like public figures, people, you know, you don't see it as much.

[B]

I just gotta be honest with you, I guess.

[A]

But no, think of celebrity. We're talking celebrities.

[B]

You want me to start naming celebrities?

[A]

Yeah, but I.

[B]

You know what we're saying, Sam, Don Jalen hurt. I could go. Do you know the list of celebrities that I can go through?

[A]

So I just want to point out that you more named some legacy people. I know you said Jaylin, but you named some legacy people. Talk about like what you're seeing in the younger damson.

[B]

Lori, I could continue.

[A]

They're not Together.

[B]

Well, whatever. Shout out to them. And I'm not getting into your.

[A]

You know what we're saying. We don't have to do a back

[C]

and forth on Frasier. Do you feel like a lot there are a lot of black men who prefer non black women?

[A]

Well, Tiffany, let me be honest with you, because everybody met me with a non black. Yes. A lot of times people assume that I don't want black men, but people who know me. Cause it's funny. Cause Van is always like, people will ask about you, who you are. People who knew me before they ever met me on the Bachelor know that's all I dated was black men. I tried something different and. But so for me, it is a little different. My experience, because black men kind of can be like, well, she doesn't really fuck with us.

[C]

Really. May I ask, how was it being with being in partnership with a white man? He loves this.

[A]

He loves this. He loves this. He loves this. It's an honest question.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I've had such a messy divorce, so I'm gonna try to be. I'm trying to be nice. There was culture to him because he was from. He's Colombian. And so, like, I would go to Colombia, I would beat his family. His grand. One of his grandmothers was Afro Latina. So there I. But it's still. Let me just put it very simply. Every day I felt, I am black. He is white.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Every day I felt that. But it doesn't mean that I did not love him. Because I'm not gonna be a revisionist and act like that wasn't real for me at a time. But I was very aware of it. Even in the comfort of our household, even when we would go out to a restaurant, even when people would talk about us, we post on social media. I was always aware of it. I never relaxed in it. But I just think that that speaks to who I am. I know people in interracial relationships who are totally different. For me, I was never comfortable in it. And maybe that just. It just says something about me, but

[C]

I think it says something about us.

[A]

That's the most simplest way I can put it about how did that feel without being negative to him?

[C]

Personally, I don't take that as negative. And I think it says less about you and more about us. Like, that's the dynamic I'm talking about. If we're all in here right now, everybody in the studio, everybody is black. If one white person walked in here, the energy shifts a little bit for me, because there's something being married in your home. Having that dynamic would be a bit off putting for me.

[A]

I think there's always things that you have to think about that you wouldn't necessarily. When you're with a black man like me being a black woman, there's just certain things, you know, that I don't have to say. Well, I wonder what he thinks about that. Or I have to ask that question. Or I have to, you know, what about your family?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I can't speak to a relationship, but for me, he did get whiter over time.

[C]

Whiter, Yeah.

[A]

I will agree.

[B]

When I first met him, I was like. When I first met him, I was like, oh, this is some living la vida loca, like Ricky Martin type. Then we play basketball and then like a couple of things happen. And just overall his whole thing, like we be in there in the front chilling, doing all kinds, and he's in the back, like doing sit ups. And like, he was like, I'm like, he got wider to me, maybe he

[C]

was pretending that it was, I don't

[B]

know, like, at first he said, like,

[C]

trying to be down the street.

[B]

Because then when I first met him, he was, you know, he was all. He's like, you know, he listened to Boys to Men and all of that shit like that. And then at the end, by the end, he was white.

[C]

I mean, but listen to Boys to Men.

[B]

I'm just saying he was into 90s R&B. We meet him the same age.

[C]

Maybe it wasn't the Kendrick Lamar that's one of the voice of men.

[B]

I feel like I never interrogated his blackness in terms of his black culture.

[A]

There's no blackness.

[B]

Well, listen, what I'm saying, when I interrogate cultural blackness, I don't use like. I don't use like, you know, all these different pop culture things. Like, what do you know about black people? What do you know about black people interpersonally, historically and all of that stuff. But it did. When I would talk to him, I would tell that he would, you know, trying to put on a good face for Rach. And then as time went on, that just stopped.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, these are questions. Yeah. I mean, that's when it got bad. But these are questions that I would ask. I wouldn't marry anybody that didn't. I mean, obviously during our marriage, Black Lives Matter really, you know, took off. Cause we got married in 2019. So that whole year was different. Living in Miami. He would go to protest with me, he would ask me questions. He would, would, you know, say, you know, can I post this Is this okay? Would ask, like, ask for explanations. So, like, I appreciated that. And so, I mean, he has to. That's another. That's another thing. That's another. But that's another part of. Once you do that, they're not you. They don't live your experience. I don't care how down they are. So that's. So that's just a real. Like. That's a reality of dating somebody that's outside of your race.

[C]

Would you date outside of your race again?

[A]

I've come home, back home. This is where I am right now.

[C]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

Can I ask you a question? Can you marry a white woman and love black women?

[C]

I feel like that's a question for that particular black man to answer. I can tell you how it looks.

[B]

I'm asking for Tiffany Cross, cross time.

[C]

I think if a black man who lives in Bismarck, North Dakota, happen to marry a white woman, then perhaps you love black women. But this is who you met, I think, a black man who lives in Washington, D.C. who marries a white woman. I would have questions about how he feels, not about black women, but about how he feels about himself.

[B]

How he feels about himself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because if you're in D.C. or Atlanta or something like that, and there's a Bernard.

[C]

I mean, that's what I'm trying to figure out, you know.

[B]

But you got a white girl, Lebanese.

[A]

How have we never known that?

[B]

All the talks we.

[C]

Okay, so your brother's fiance.

[B]

So, Jen, y' all jump in now. So, Bernard, you

[C]

are. You are.

[B]

Y' all never. Bernard, you left me out here on. God. So Ray been out here struggling. She just. She described you, you fake ass. I never knew this, by the way. By the way. Well, you should be heard.

[A]

Aren't you from Baltimore?

[B]

He's from. He's from D.C. capital D.C. and he got a white woman. And now Tiffany Cross has called you out.

[A]

Defend yourself.

[C]

I got some questions.

[B]

Get him, Tiffany.

[C]

Just tell me how that happened. Like, how'd y' all meet?

[B]

We met through my best friend at her Valentine's soireway party. I was doing a videography gig and we was talking. She was a paralegal at the LA courthouse and we just kept vibing and talking.

[C]

May I ask how old you are?

[B]

I'm 28.

[C]

Okay. Had you dated non black women before?

[B]

Only Latinas, but everybody else is black.

[C]

Only Latinas?

[B]

Yeah. I only got black Latinas, and then she's my first out of state.

[C]

Wait, when you say only Latinas, like that is non black women? Yeah.

[B]

So you had Only dated.

[C]

So maybe I should ask, have you ever dated?

[B]

The only race that ever dated in my life are black Latinas and Lebanese. That's what I meant to say. Sorry. Oh, black. Black Latinas and Lebanese. So he was saying.

[C]

So are you saying black, comma Latinas. Are you saying Afro Latinas?

[B]

No, black, comma Latin.

[C]

Tell me about the ratio. Did you date, like, one black girl and then, like, the.

[B]

No, I'm from. I'm from dc, so it's all Chocolate City. We didn't have, like, white people in my school.

[C]

And you got to LA and was like, yippee.

[B]

I mean, I have to try new flavors.

[A]

So I have to say, happens in la.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Not yippee. It's just I met a lot of black women out here that didn't want to be black. Like, shit. So that's another thing.

[C]

What does that mean? What does that look like?

[B]

They don't classify themselves as black women.

[A]

What do they say?

[C]

Are they black?

[A]

Like, racial black women?

[B]

No, they literally would, like, renounce their whole blackness. They be like, I'm not black.

[A]

Bernard, we gonna have to have this conversation.

[C]

I don't know where you hanging out.

[A]

Denounce the black men.

[B]

What do you think? Talking about. No, we in the deep water now.

[C]

We going to talk. We going save you.

[B]

I can't put the little things. What are you talking. What are you talk. Oh, you took the mic away from him.

[A]

Jay did the mic. Woman took the microphone.

[C]

Jade's brother is married, J. Yes.

[B]

So you. So you got little biracial nieces and nephews. Y' all holding out, by the way.

[C]

They don't talk about my nephews.

[B]

Okay, I'm asking.

[A]

I have biracial nephews.

[C]

I have biracial nephews.

[A]

Hold on.

[B]

Wait a second. Wait, wait, wait, wait. No, wait. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You got biracial nephews. You got biracial nephews. So you got biracial nephews. I don't want to hear y' all talking to me about it. Cause in my family, we keeping it the fuck real.

[A]

What you mean?

[B]

I'm just saying in the Lathan family.

[C]

What you mean by that, though?

[B]

We keeping it the fuck.

[C]

What do you mean by that?

[B]

I mean, it's not like we haven't been with white women, but, like. Go ahead.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Cause that. Don't bring up my father. Don't bring up my goddamn dad. Okay. Don't bring up.

[A]

My God.

[C]

Is your brother married to. They're engaged, but they do have a kid and a Second one on the way. Okay.

[B]

Kid's name is Bethany.

[A]

How did we get there?

[B]

Robbie.

[A]

Andre. Oh, okay.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[C]

I. I will say. And you know, obviously, like, only my brother can really speak to his experience, but from being his sister, I. We both grew up going to predominantly white schools, and we were some of the only black kids in our class. And I feel like a lot of

[A]

the black men who I even went to school with.

[C]

Cause we're seven years apart, but we

[A]

went to the same high school, so.

[C]

So even the black men that were in my grade, I felt like it's

[A]

one of those kind of assimilating situations

[C]

where oftentimes, if you're the only black

[A]

kid in a school or in a certain environment, you oftentimes feel the need

[C]

to assimilate to whatever culture is the majority. And I feel like a lot of the black men I witnessed do that. And because of that, it was kind of like they see their white friends being with white women. Let's give it a try. Let's try it out. Let's see. Because also, too, I just don't think there was enough black women around them

[A]

to really wanna engage in that way,

[C]

in a relationship way. We were all friends. Everybody hung out together. All of the black kids in the private schools all hung out together. It was like that. But I think when it came to relationships, these black men had different. I don't know, it was just kind of like they were more attracted to

[A]

that than they were.

[C]

Yeah, I know. I mean, a lot of parents go through that. You know, you do. Well, you send your kids to a, you know, a private school, and now the black boys want to ask out the non black girls. My challenge, though, I'll say about having kids in these situations, particularly when it comes. Cause when somebody's biracial, you're the BVI person over there. If somebody's biracial, like, my question is always, who black? Is your mama black? Were you raised by a black woman? Because I do think white women raising black children, it gives them a space and a conversation where they have no place being. So I am concerned when I think about white women raising black children, it's

[B]

an overwhelming majority of biracial relationships.

[C]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Again, we have some of the highest endogamy rates, but for the people.

[B]

For the people that do do that.

[C]

Right. Yes, I can understand that. Because I feel like I was very much of a similar mindset, especially when it came to my nephews. I think the biggest thing around changing that conversation is that making sure that the black women who are his family are very much a part of his life. And I think that's the biggest thing. Me and my brother are very. And his fiance, too.

[A]

His fiance is very much making sure

[C]

he understands his family heritage is where he comes from. But I think putting my nephews in places and environments where they can learn more about who they are as a black person, I think is super important. And I think just about being supportive and making sure me, as a black

[A]

woman, I'm in his life so he

[C]

can understand that relationship that he can have with black women. You know what I mean? And not making it so much about. Because, I mean, regardless if the mom's white, the mom's white, she's not gonna have. She's not gonna be able to do certain things. So her a lot. Making sure that there are black women in his life is more important than anything. Yeah.

[B]

Good job, Jade.

[C]

Yeah. I. I mean, I'll tell you, that was great. Yeah. Thank you.

[B]

Way to go, Jade. No, but I think it's the exception

[C]

and not all, because a lot of kids are around white families, and when it comes to things like even just as simple as our hair, but also how to maneuver in society, and then this whole, like, new term from. Respectfully, from Meghan Markle, but of, like, being mixed race, and it's like, no, you are not mixed race. You are a black child, and you should know that. And we should instill that in people. I think, to me, there is a difference of biracial people who have a black mom having raised them or a white mom. I think I can more, in most cases, always tell.

[B]

Look, this is what I'm saying.

[C]

So if Rachel, thank goodness you didn't, because the divorce would have been messier. But had you had a kid, your kids would have. They had a black mom. So you would have raised them a certain way. You would have raised them as black children.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she only had sisters. So the sister.

[C]

Which, again, speaks to the sanctity of black women and the importance of black women.

[B]

So I'll say this. Two questions. Number one, I am a black culture purist, meaning that I believe that the safety of particularly American blackness is in black culture, and it's in gatekeeping black culture, and it's in preserving black culture. Because whatever. I won't even go into the whole thing. But so that kind of involves itself into this entire conversation, this conversation that we're having now is essentially, I'll just ask everyone in the room about people in love. It's about people that are in love, that have found love in the one time they get on this earth. And I know that I make a lot of jokes and all of that stuff, but I honestly could not give a fuck less who people are involved with in their relationships. Right. I love to see black couples, though. I just like that. I just see. I just love to see black couples and black families. And I go people to see a bunch of black families. But what I'm saying is how much of this conversation. Just the interracial dating part of it, the interracial marriage part of it, all of this stuff, the biracial part of it, all the jokes, how much of it actually really matters and why?

[C]

What do you of this conversation?

[B]

What I mean is we litigated. So we litigated Rachel. So every as we litigated Rachel, we litigated Bernard, we litigated her brother. And then I guess you got somebody in your family.

[C]

My brother had two kids with a white woman milkman.

[B]

So we're talking about all of this stuff. Question, how much of this is actually important to discuss? I know it's very funny. To me, it's always funny and always looks weird. But how much of this.

[C]

It doesn't come up in my life a lot.

[B]

Good. Okay.

[C]

Like at all. I barely get into this in the book. I mean, except to say that black men overwhelmingly marry black women. But I'm not really sitting around with my friends talking about black men with white women. I'm like, if that's where you wanna be, then gone. My only point is, to me, it says more about how that black man feels about himself.

[B]

What does it say about Bernard?

[C]

Even hearing Bernard say that he dated a lot of Latinas and other non black women, I do find that curious because there is something safe about us. The unit between a black man and a black woman. So you're also a lot younger than me, like half my age. So maybe this is just a different time period. But from my perspective, like, I drink, I play spades, I say things that we say among ourselves. There's nothing that's so appealing to me that I would want to go in my own home and feel like I don't have that relaxation in my own skin and in my community. I ain't never seen a white man fine enough. I ain't never seen a non black man fine enough that I would risk the magic that exists when I'm with my people. The comfort that exists when I'm with my people. There ain't no amount of money. There ain't nobody slinging it hard enough where I'm gonna even put yes, that I'm gonna even put that at risk. I love black people like I love myself. And there's something beautiful about when we come together in spirit and in love and ascend to a space. I think it takes me to an ancestral space. And that with everything happening in Society Right now, one is how we survive this 400 year nightmare. And two, with everything happening in our society right now, I crave more than anything comfort and safety. So if I have to, if I can't, in my most vulnerable place, meet somebody and that ancestral piece, then it will be a permanent disconnect. You always had some level of disconnect with this man. That's true. So I wonder, maybe it is a generational thing. Maybe there's some erosion of that with younger people, I don't know. But yeah, it's not something that I could imagine entertaining.

[A]

And, you know, I didn't realize how disconnected I felt in certain ways until it was over. And I dated a black man, started dating, like going on dates and then dated a black man. And I was like, that's what was missing. That's. There is. I just relaxed in a completely different way, but I didn't get it in the moment. There was just something that felt. But to answer your question about how much of it really matters, I also clearly am a person who believes love and be with whoever that you want. My biggest thing is identity. And I think it matters in the sense of you losing your identity and you losing who you are in the relationship because you are partnered or married to someone. And I think that's something that's important, that has to be talked about. And I think that's how you get, you know, the, the exception in the sense that what you're talking about or I mean, even using myself in my own relationship, I just, I have seen people completely lose themselves, their blackness in a relationship. And to me then it's worth talking about. And then. And because that also talks about gatekeeping and boundaries and things like that that we've, we talked about on this podcast.

[C]

When you hear people say, like non black people, you know, especially couples, it's like you guys talk about race a lot more than other people. Well, like who fucking Ray for you? Like, of course you don't talk about it because it don't come up in your life. Why would you be talking about it all the time? Time. Like we are confronted with it all the time. And so I want a place to be Able to exchange in my righteous indignation, in my anger. I want a safe space to talk about that. And every single day, there's a monstrosity occurring in our country that is rooted in white domination, that they are united in my obstruction. And so I just. I don't know. Like, ain't no way I'm about to be in these times, not with somebody when the shit goes down. Like, I want to be intertwined fingers. Like we are locked arm in arm. Because you understand better than most. Just like we understood when we saw shit going down, we understood better than most what was coming. So if I'm not with a partner who can understand what's going on, if I got to teach you about it, I mean, it's just not going to be a good situation for me.

[B]

And you still feel safe with black men?

[C]

100%. I ain't never not those same for black men.

[B]

Oh, hell yeah. Let me ask you a question about a white man. And I had to ask you this. Recently. We talked about here on the podcast, Scott Jennings flipping out and cursing out Adam. Adam Mockler on Abby's show.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So Adam was hitting him in the goddamn gut with facts.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And Scott. That's right. Tiff just. It's time to.

[C]

Yeah. I'm like.

[B]

Adam was. Was hitting them with facts. And Scott short circuited. Okay, Scott short circuited, as he often does.

[C]

That wasn't the first time I've been on set with him when he said, I don't like your stupid fucking question. I've heard him say all kind of silly shit on that.

[B]

As a matter of fact, I actually was. Be honest with you, unaware of the amount of times that it actually happened, because it's never happened when I've been there. It happened.

[A]

Do they always cut it out of the broadcast?

[B]

No, no, no, no, no. Because I saw another one when he put his finger in the face of Michael. Of Michael Dyson. Right. Dr. Dyson. I remember that fantastically. Handled that in a way, Doss discourse. Y' all know he got Scott right one time. Okay. You have been very vocal about how we should act and behave on these shows. Or how you, more specifically, should act and behave on these shows. And Scott insulted you publicly on one of these shows and went to a place that everybody thought was fucked up.

[C]

We were talking about Greenland, and he was making. He was like, I've never said anything. Something he was saying he's never said. And I was like, I'm not talking about you. You're irrelevant to the point I'm making. And he said, well, you got fired from your job, so how relevant are you?

[B]

He was waiting to get that off.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So when you saw that, one, your response to it in the moment about his behavior and then two, what do you think me and Rachel had a conversation about people like Scott being on those shows and those roles?

[C]

Well, one, there's a lot of criticism about Abby's show and I push back. I think it's well deserved criticism because Abby will come out and defend it. But I think some of it is unfair because Scott appears on every show across that network. So it's like, are you mad at Abby or are you mad at cnn? Because they put right, they put him everywhere. I could never get away with that behavior and still show up and choose to be on whatever show I want to. So I'm just saying if we're gonna have criticism, I think we should criticize the network as a whole. They have routinely. And Scott's not the first one I remember they would put on, on Rick Santorum all the time who said incredibly disrespectful things about black people. I could go through the list of people who they pay six and seven figures who sit on that on many sets and say deplorable things. So, you know, I think that. And I've even read remarks about executives praising Scott and celebrating what they believe he contributes. They normalize white supremacy and treat it like it's okay. So I think it is reflected in their ratings. People are increasingly tuning out, not just in recent years, but over the years. There are a lot of cord cutters. And when you have networks that used to be reliable, used to be a place where you can go to for news and they turn into the Real Housewives of CNN and they're like, we're going to put on somebody who is completely unintelligent and put them across from someone with an intellectual thought and present these things as though they are equal, as though they are on equal footing. I think we have enough intelligence where we're not going to watch that. So people might watch clips. But when you look at the sheer numbers like they are in the toilet. And so I find it deplorable. I'm a journalist by training. I have been for 26 plus years. I had my first byline when I was like 16. So to watch the industry as a whole celebrate that level of ignorance is heartbreaking. Another part of the heartbreak, I think for Scott, he gets paid more than some of the hosts at that network that shows where they Value. What Van and I talked about is showing up on set. I believe I'm shadow banned from cnn, but I have no solid proof, but I believe I had a few appearances scheduled and they canceled all of them. And to be honest, like, I hated the feeling that I got on that set. So. But it's kind of like a dude that you don't even really like, and then he break up with you.

[A]

He's like, oh, dang, I like you

[C]

in the first place. That's how it felt when they were like, oh, we're gonna cancel your next season. Like, okay, fine. I. I believe the way he's allowed to persist and showing up on that network, which I think is part of the reason they're like, we don't like you. Because I'm not there to make small talk with these people. Like, I don't fuck with these people the second I walk in. I am not engaging you in conversation. I know very well who these people are. And I'm not gonna make small talk with somebody who doesn't see my humanity. So don't say shit to me in the green room. No, I don't want to record these little silly social media things like, like, what food would you take off the Thanksgiving menu? It's like, yeah, I'm not talking about food. I'm thinking about the people in prison in this country and the people over in Seacot and ice who are being starved to death. So that's my answer on food. I don't want to play these little silly fucking games while people are suffering. Second, don't turn to me during the commercial break and say a fucking thing to me. I don't like you. I don't give a shit. Where you about to vacation next week? I'm not here to make small talk with you after we get off the set. Don't say a fucking thing. Let me preemptively tell you. I don't give a shit where your oldest is thinking about going to college. I'm not your friend. This shit is not fucking performance for me. You know what I mean? And I think people aim. They thrive, they thirst to go viral on these shows as though it's entertainment. And I'm looking at the real shit that's happening. I'm looking. I live in a neighborhood that's surrounded by public housing, and I'm looking at the people suffering. I'm looking at people. I mean, this is happening when they shot a fucking nurse in the face. Or a nurse in the back, rather, and a mom in the fucking Face. And I'm supposed. And you're here advocating for that kind of policy, and I'm supposed to make small talk with you. I'm offended by your presence. I'm not going out drinking with you. We're not texting, trading little dog pictures and all that shit that people do. I don't like it. I don't like it. And so when I was on the set, yeah, it was a little uncomfortable for everybody, but guess what? I was unfucking comfortable the second I walked in the building. And I have to sit across some white supremacists being treated it like they're fucking superheroes on a network. Just because people find that is entertaining. And nobody's saying that you have to have on people who just agree with you. That's not ever the suggestion. Because I've heard like, the defense, like, oh, but people are talking. Yeah, you can have a healthy exchange of different ideas and ideology. I would do that on my show. Other people do that on. You guys do it here. We're having conversation here. But to platform people who are rooted in your destruction is to me, beyond defense.

[B]

Can I ask you something? Are there any Republicans who aren't white

[C]

supremacists in these days? No, you can't have any Republicans on. I think you can have whomever you want, but I think if you're going to have on. And I don't call them Republicans anymore, they are right wing extremists. MAGA is right wing extremists. If I'm going to have one of them on my show, then that's what we're gonna talk about. We're gonna go through policy by policy as a journalist, I'm gonna be prepared to do that. And let me just say, Abby is a solid journalist. She comes out of the print world. She covered Capitol Hill, she was at Politico, graduated from Harvard. Like, she is a solid. Like before she ever had this show, Abby has always done solid work. Not the kind of work that I do. Like, what we do is different. And I think there's an expectation that, like, Abby's supposed to be me or she's supposed to be Joy or she's. You know, we do different things. Like, Abby is there to be straight down the middle and say, you know, this is what's what. She. Her analysis looks different. And that's one of the rules in journalism. Right. That one of the rules I had to buck because what is considered unbiased is rooted in what's white and male. I don't adhere to Those rules. But I think, you know, Abby has a different training than I do, so. And not just Abby, but we're talking about Abby's show. But I would say a whole lot of other anchors there too. If I'm having on one of these right wing MAGA extremists that he can sit across from me and answer policy by policy. We can start with the vra, we can start with the Calais decision, we can start with the courts, we can start with roe, we can go through it all and I'm going to try my best to inform the audience and dismantle every single thing this stupid, half witted, ignorant, racist person says. That to me is journalism. And if you find it entertaining, fine. But that's different than platforming this person across from someone like me and presenting their racism as though it is informative and presenting their sexism and xenophobia as though it's intellect. Because it's neither, isn't it?

[A]

I agree.

[B]

In the example you just gave, wouldn't that be your job since you're on the panel with him as well?

[C]

No, that should not be my job. So that also drives me crazy because I feel like it's my job when I'm on the set. I feel like I have to jump in and fact check. I feel like I have to jump in and say, I actually take issue with the premise of that question. But that is the host. When you are in that host chair, you are responsible for what's happening on the show. It cannot be. Well, there's a thunderstorm outside. Tiffany, you say it's raining. Scott, you say it's sunny. Discuss. No, you're the fucking journalist, you're the host. You get to say, we can emphatically say it is thunderstorming outside right now to present it at each other and say, now go at it. That is the complete opposite of your job. And I see that all the time across that network. I see lazy reports asking questions in a way no follow up where they're like, well, we don't want to hurt the MAGA person's feelings. We don't want to put them on the spot with something. I find, no, that should not be my job as a panelist.

[B]

So I, I, so I find that she does do that just to. I find that Abby does.

[C]

Does what?

[B]

She fact checks the shit out of people all the time.

[C]

Yeah, I think it's hard in real and live TV to catch everything, but I think Abby catches as much as

[B]

I think my point more.

[C]

But she's platforming People who are liars. Cnn. CNN is platforming people who are liars.

[B]

My broader point is this. First of all, and I'll tell you where I'm coming from. Number one, I think all of them are liars. I think the people that got all of who think the political establishment is full of a liar class.

[C]

Okay, I'm a little concerned because it sounds like you're putting right wing maga extremists in the same category as like

[B]

I'm putting a liena press. No, I'm putting. I'm putting a lie in the same category. So, like, all of them.

[C]

But you're saying all of them are liars.

[B]

I'm saying, I'm saying that they. I'm saying that this is what I mean by this. So there's. I don't know how to say it. I think they're all liars. I think most of the people. I think the people that got up there and said that, the people that got up there and said there's nothing wrong with President Biden, like, he's not slowing down at all. I think they were lying. I think they realized that.

[C]

But who are you talking about? Like, who was he?

[B]

Whomever said it? If nobody said it, then I'm wrong. But they all said it.

[C]

But they all, like, I just don't know your truth.

[B]

If no one said it, then I'm wrong.

[C]

I'm not saying no one said it, man. But when you say that, like whoever said that. But you're. But you're putting these things in the same category and the shit that they lie about and President Biden, those are two completely different things.

[B]

I agree.

[C]

Okay, so.

[B]

But what I. But what I'm saying is though, is that when I have been on sets before where we have been talking about a lot of the things, to me, a lot of the subjects have been based in political dogma and what it is that your side is telling you to believe. Now, certain things right now that we're talking about that directly affect us. The lies hit us very hard and they have to be dispelled. But if I was on a show like, if I was on a show like that, when I am on a show like that, Remember one time me and Scott went back and forth because Scott said something like, I was going to criticize Barack Obama, but Van just did it for me. The reason why I criticized Barack Obama in that case was because Barack Obama was there to be criticized. He had said something that I had disagreed with and I was going to criticize it right Scott took that as a win because in his tradition, I am not supposed to say anything on the show to ever criticize President Obama because that's not my function on the show. But my function on the show is not to repeat anyone's dogma, political dogma. It's to give my opinion on something. And if that is Barack Obama in the wrong or anybody else in the wrong, that's what the deal is. So in the entire complexity of that show or that. That. That ecosystem, to me, I think there are things that are universal truths, and I think that there are things that are lied about. And I just.

[C]

I have a fundamental issue with you, like, putting Scott in the same category as a car. Okay, so what am I doing? Cause you're saying, like, they're all liars and it's political dogma. I don't think that's true.

[B]

What I'm saying is if. How can I say this? The whole show is about lies. Like, the whole back and the whole back and forth. The whole back and forth that exists in that the whole show is about trying to point out why the other person is lying.

[A]

So you're saying it's performative, right?

[C]

Well, that might be the. So that may be some people's function on the show, but that's not ever my function.

[B]

Understand? So what I'm saying. So what I'm saying is, if we.

[C]

That's not my function. When I'm on that show, I'm there to inform the audience. I try not to even engage them as much. I don't even want to traffic and giving my opinion.

[B]

But what I'm saying is, to me, sometimes performing the audience. The audience informing the audience is shredding the misinformation that's coming from the other side at times. Okay? So to me, everybody's getting a set of talking points. Everybody's getting. Well, not getting a set of talking points. Everybody.

[C]

I've never gotten a set of talking points.

[B]

I understand that, but, man, what.

[C]

Cause what are you saying?

[B]

Tiffany, Tiffany, Tiffany, Tiffany, Tiffany, Tiffany, Tiffany, Tiffany.

[C]

I'm just trying to understand your point.

[B]

Now, listen, I'm gonna keep it, like, all the way real. I am on. Maybe you don't get talking points. I'm not saying.

[C]

You see, never in my life.

[B]

But I have been on and left lists full of dozens of people that are on lists talking about how things should be discussed, like how we should talk about something.

[C]

I'm not suggesting that those things don't exist. Right, but what you say is all of them.

[B]

Okay, so Maybe I'm. Maybe so what I'm saying is this, like I know for certain with 100% certainty that stuff happens. And then there are meetings where people are, where it is discussed how this should be talked about. Right. And so when I hear, when I hear a litany of people on the right all saying the same thing, I know why they're saying it because they have those same messages and those same groups and those same things where they are discussing how something should be talked about. So what? The only difference is normally I agree with the majority of the talking points that are coming out from the side of these people that are on the other political, in the other political home. Right.

[C]

Okay, so let me, let me just offer a little context there. There is no secret that there are DNC talkers that come out, RNC talkers that come out putting those two things in the same category. Okay, fine. I'm not a party person. Never happened. I've never in my life worked as a party I operative. So maybe you have been on set with people who are party or, or whatever in company or community of people who are party operatives or who are part of cohorts where they're giving context or they're saying, here is the context for it. When I have been in spaces like that, I typically exit as I, I don't consider. I'm not a talking head person. I am a journalist, so I'm not a part of that. What I'm concerned with, maybe I'm misunderstanding you. It sounds like you're saying these are two buckets of the same thing. Thing that MAGA extremist talking points are the same thing as Ayanna Pressley coming on and talking about something. And I don't believe that's true. It's kind of like this whole idea of like Republicans are better at messaging and strategy. Of course they better at that because they talking to a bunch of dumb ass people. And they have one common goal, their one common goal is white power, white domination. I think on the Democratic Party side it's a bigger tent. So you might have an Ayanna Pressley who is on the complete opposite side as Hakeem Jeffries. They are not talking from the same playbook, so to speak. There are people out there who lead with their conviction, but these are elected officials, these are politicians. When I am on the show, I'm operating as neither. I am there to. My goal when I show up on that set is to inform the audience. So if we're going to be Talking about the FCC that day, nine times out of 10, I've been on the phone earlier with somebody who works at the fcc. If we're talking about a piece of policy, if we're talking about Mideast policy or foreign policy, more than likely I've talked to somebody in the Democratic majority or somebody who works on foreign policy, somebody at the State Department, somebody who covered it, somebody who's been to the region to gain context. It is never from a talking point. And I don't believe that everybody who goes on that show is. You go on that show, you're not speaking from talking points. But even if they are, I just think there is a difference between what right wing extremists are doing and saying. It is not strategy. It is simple regurgitation of whatever this Maga Mar a Lago golfer is telling them to say. I don't think it is intellectual thought process. They have entertainers on there, they have actors on it, they have comedians on there. I don't believe those people are pulling from talking points. I think they are just there to shit out their mouth and say something random for the purposes of entertainment.

[B]

Let me be clear on what I'm saying. Obviously, the substance of what's being said is different, right? Yes, obviously we would all agree with that. To me, the motivation a lot of time is not. You have your own motivation. I might have my own motivation. The show exists in a framework of right versus left. Most of the shows, most of those shows exist in a framework of right versus left. They exist in the framework. Hey, the people that are on there that are not going to go against what President Trump is saying to me are operating from the exact same political tradition of people who are not going to publicly rebuke any Democratic president because that's not their function on the show. So their function on the show is to come on there and present a right versus left debate. Because the people who don't really get platformed on those shows are people who are far to the left of the center of the Democratic Party. They never get on the show. Right. And they never get on the show because they don't have the backing of the center of the. Their ideas are not mainstream enough. Like their ideas don't have have a political home. Even if those ideas are the most humanistic ideas, the most easily accessible ideas for people to change their lives and stuff like that. So what I'm saying is, I get what you're saying about the MAGA movement. I think we all agree about that. I think the criticism of the shows Themselves is a little different because the show would have to be completely. Let's devote all of our time to like, shredding President Trump and his agenda, which I would be in favor of. You would be in favor of. You would be in favor of. But that's not how they ever go.

[C]

I think the show should be about informing people, not an echo chamber of like, they call it debate. I mean, I call it nonsense. I don't even think it has to be like, let's shred Donald Trump's agenda.

[B]

Well, if you point out all the lies of the agenda, you're shredding it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes. But I just think there is also other things happening in the world that warrant discussion. And I think it's only in Western media, particularly American media, where you see that kind of thing happening. But there are so many other outlets outside of our region that actually do a good job of informing. What you're describing is not new. I think putting these two opposite sides where it's right versus left, that's not news to me. And CNN did used to actually be news. They did actually. Used to. Used to.

[B]

But there was always Crossfire. There was always shows.

[C]

Yes, but those are like one or two shows that would happen that were still different from what we're seeing now. Right. They were like opinions, debate shows, but overall, Crossfire. Yeah, I remember I worked there when he was there.

[B]

Right. So like these shows, like there was always existed. Hold on. There was always Hannity. Hannity and Combs. There was always shows like, there have always been no shows where. Where they've done that. And so I'm saying I complete. Just to put a pin in this from my side, I completely agree with you're saying, but with what you're saying, but I'm saying is then in that case, you're not going to be able to platform anybody who is a Republican because there's no one who is a mainstream Republican right now that is going to be worth platforming on that show. That's not going to go along with what the.

[C]

It's a circus act.

[B]

Okay, fair enough.

[C]

Fair enough.

[A]

And I think.

[C]

I think the audience deserves better.

[A]

And I think that it's meant to be. I think it is meant to be an entertaining show, which is why I have my thoughts about Scott Jennings and I agree with everything that it was that you were saying. So I'm gonna tie this into a question and then back into the book. When you see what is happening on Abby's show and you see the change in CNN or some of these traditional networks, even going back to the group chat that you have and the women that are in there who have been treated unfairly by some of these traditional networks and have lost their jobs, what do you think the answer is? Do you think that you've seen what Joy's done? You've seen what Don Lemon has done? I mean, I know we're talking about black women, but I just mean. So black people in the sense of, should we remove ourselves from these traditional networks, these traditional spaces, and move towards independent media so we can have the show that you're talking about, like the other outlets that aren't even from, you know, within this country? Is that what we should be moving to? Because we're always gonna treated unfairly like you talk about in your book. You did everything. You know, you worked hard, you put in the. You had the numbers, all the things, had the audience, and still it wasn't enough. And then you give the example of Rasheeda, who played the game, and that still wasn't enough. Should we be moving away from it? Should we even try to be a part of these networks, these shows?

[C]

I think we are moving away from it. So when you say we as. There's we as hosts and then there are we as viewers. Viewers.

[A]

Viewers. I know, are.

[C]

I would say so, but hosts are. Because we've been kicked out. It's not. We were moving away from it because we've been. What'd you say?

[B]

Not enough jobs?

[C]

Yeah, well, there. There are enough jobs, but where our kind is not walking.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

You know, but independent media also comes with some challenges, too, because, you know, I meet a lot of people are like, I want to be a journalist, too. And I'm wondering, like, do you know what that means? Because nowadays, if you have. Have a podcast, microphone, and a camera, people are calling themselves journalists. And that is different. Just. It's not that journalists can't give their opinion, but if that. If you've never navigated a newsroom, like, there actually is a craft to what we do, there actually is certain rules about informing and sourcing. And, you know, if you've not navigated a newsroom, you don't know that. And even saying something is like, oh, I'm looking into this. And then, like, you go read an article about it, it you're not looking into it. You're reading the reporter's work who has looked into it. So I'm a little concerned about this move to independent media because journalism is a group project, like you do. I need people to check My worst instincts. I need people to fact check me just because I talked to one person at the fcc, somebody else has to double check that. We have to make sure I'm presenting that information properly. According to this one person. This is what I know. I'm concerned about that going away. In terms of Joy and Don, they didn't leave those networks broke. You know, Don left CNN with millions of dollars, so he had the infrastructure to build this network. They didn't want Joy so bad. They were paying her not to come to work. So Joy left with her contract to pay from her contract still intact. Her husband is an engineer. That's how they met. She had a studio built in her house. And she had been so battered at that network, she was ready to go, like when she left on a Monday. By Tuesday, she was ready to press the game. So as I'm looking at the landscape, I am really trying to figure out and navigate, what does that look like? Roland Martin, you know, Roland Martin put in a lot of work. He built a very elaborate. We didn't go see the studio. I wanted a van to go see Roland Martin's studio in D.C. because it is very elaborate. Like they. He has equipment everywhere. It is amazing what he does. And he makes it available for people to rent out. Michael Harriot with Contraband Campus, like the Black Atlantic. And you should write something for Contraband Camp Camp Van, by the way. But it is like a great platform, you know, so those folks, I'm like, yes, I trust that those people are doing the right thing. They have great infrastructure. They have a staff. When people ask me all the time, just do it. Like, just get in front of your camera and do it. I don't know what that looks like. You know, I'm trying to figure it out. I'm. I'm trying to figure out what that might look like. But I would rather do that than go back into institutions that really trivialized my very long career. And I mean, I write about, in the book of, like, my lessers, like my peers trying to explain to me how news works, you know, just the disrespect. But whatever disrespect I navigated in the newsroom, you've navigated that in a law office, you've navigated that in a production office. Or we'll get into it. But like tmz, like, you navigated disrespects. Yes, precisely there. And just people working with people who didn't see your humanity, who didn't respect you. There are people who navigate that in Doctor's offices, people who are associates in retail, going through all the same things. And I am not working in television, but there are close to 400,000 black women who are not working in their career fields of choice where they were had levels of expertise. It feels like we are all navigating a work environment that is very hostile towards us. So I don't want to get up here and sound like woe is me because I'm looking around me and there are so many other black women in this exact same space. Which is why I didn't want to write a memoir. I wanted to just share. Here's a little bit about what I'm going through, but here's a pull out picture of what we're all going through and collectively none of it's fair. What happened to me was not fair. But what's happening to all these amazing women being kicked out of the federal government, that wasn't fair either. What happened to you Van, was not fair. So we all have a right to be angry about that. But maybe from that anger some level of innovation will happen or maybe humanity has just peaked and this shit is about to be a wrap.

[B]

But no, it's already happened though. Like to me, the most reliable news sources I have are all independent, all like.

[A]

Like what she was saying as a audience.

[B]

Like Zateo, drop site, the majority report like the places that I go for news right now and these are places and these are people and we've had some of them on. If you're talking about like Ryan Grimm or like, you know, Mehdi obviously left with a lot of medi. Like if you're looking at these papers, these are people that are like doing reporting that legitimately nobody else is doing.

[C]

Yeah, Zateo, Al Jazeera, there's still some legacy media outlets who's doing solid work. And I will say ProPublica is doing the Lord's work every day. I mean people have to stop like watching and start reading. But ProPublica does amazing work. I, I'm an, I am still a New York Times reader, A daily New York Times reader. I think their political coverage is shitty, but they do amazing reporting in other spaces. I'm a Reuters person and Al Jazeera definitely just to get out of Western media. It definitely offers a more global perspective of even the BBC. BBC is very much Western media. I think they're very, I don't think,

[B]

I don't think al jazeer, the BBC is Western Media Channel 4. All of these places I go to, like all of these places for news.

[C]

I tried not to. Only reason I tried not to is because they are all so skewed in their perspective. So, like, I will read like, South China Morning Post, you know, just to get the. The Western media is all allied with Israel, you know, so they will report on, like, three tragedies that happened in Israel and ignore the 30 tragedies that happen with Palestinians. I mean, you see what's happening now with Nicholas Kristoff's reporting in the New York Times, where he talked about what the IDF is doing to Palestine, and they're trying to destroy his reporting so he's not a part of their political coverage. But it's like, this is our way to disrupt these biased perspectives that I think for so long have been tolerated

[B]

in newsrooms, which is to me, like, why independent media? Because that was the only place when I really started getting deeply into what was happening in the Middle East. It's the only place I could go. Go. Place you could go was the tail. Only place you could go is drop side. And they're reporting on things that nobody else is reporting on. Okay. So every Tiffany Cross, Van Lathan conversation has to devolve into some sort of argument all the time.

[C]

It was not an argument.

[B]

Van thinks they're all lying. Tiffany thinks half of them are.

[C]

Well, I. You. You were putting them in the same category. I just.

[A]

That's not what they heard.

[B]

I'm not.

[C]

I'm.

[B]

I'm not putting them in the same category. I'm not putting in the same. Of. Lie. But the Democrats lie. Do the Democrats lie?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

I'm not a party person. Like, I'm definitely. I do not work for the Democratic Party. I disagreed with people on. Did he say I was a party person?

[A]

No, he just loves to do this. That's what he loves to do. Let people tell that I'm maga.

[B]

I never said that.

[A]

Rachel loves him. Rachel loves Trump.

[B]

You think he's. She's one of the Trump is funny people. She likes him.

[A]

I have said. He has said something that has made me chuckle. I don't think he's seen it.

[C]

We laugh to keep from crying with Trump, but we've had these. We were on the phone for hours, Van and I. I don't even want

[B]

to get into that one.

[A]

I'm not even.

[B]

I don't even want to get into that one.

[C]

We were not debating. That was like 30 minutes of the conversation, but we were talking about other things, about life and navigate this. This conversation we're having about Navigating life in this space. And I called you to ask your opinion and advice on life. Like cuz as I'm trying to figure it out, I'm like, yeah, like tell me how the podcast world is for you. Like tell me about like your career path here we were chatting, so Van acts like we were on the phone debating the whole time. It wasn't.

[B]

We started talking about. We started talking about exactly like all different types of.

[C]

It was a one. I, I enjoyed the conversation. Van.

[B]

I enjoyed it too. I enjoyed it too. I always do.

[C]

I think that I enjoyed this conversation.

[B]

It's a fantastic conversation. I love it. Now they gonna call you and they gonna book you. They gonna go, we gonna put the pressure on them. Because let me tell you something and I really truly believe this. Seriously. I believe that there is a cohort of black female voice that is being purposefully culled from the media space. Purposefully. When I say purposefully. I'll tell you why. Because they were too culturally influenced, influential. The information was one thing, but the idea of this particular woman in this particular age group with this particular set of politics was very dangerous and destabilizing. And I watched it happen over a course of years. Y' all think I'm back in my conspiracy theory shit. I'm not. I'm telling you guys to look between 18 and 19 and look to now. There was intent and there was. I'm just being for real. There was intent because there was a coalescing that was happening. There was an awakening that was happening. And when it was coming from this group of women, they were able to do something I'm sometimes not able to do is just continuously come back with love and with energy but remind you how to important the times are. And they were all together too, and they were feeding each other. And I'm telling you, I've told Jamel this before. Somebody said no. I'm just being for real. Somebody said no. So that I do believe. I believe in debate though. So you gotta put the people on the shows.

[C]

Tiffany, you and I have debate, right? You know, I mean some of the debates we had. You have a perspective. I have a perspective. Your perspective is like you is warranted. You have experience in what you're saying. You are prime position. We won't get into it. One of the debates we were having was about Joe Budden's podcast.

[B]

Joe Budden podcast.

[C]

We won't get into it.

[B]

Mark and Flip. And that's very, that's a very important dynamic.

[C]

You know, Mark did my book talk

[B]

in Philly, It's a very important dynamic to see them two brothers talking.

[C]

I don't disagree with that. But your perspective on it is warranted. As a black man, as somebody who listens to the show, as somebody, you know, you had. I'm interested in your thoughts. We could have that perspective. And my perspective, I think, is valid. Now, if we're talking and, like, you're trying to tell me about European markets and, you know, like, the impact that the closing of the Strait is going to have on European markets, I kind of feel like, why is Van Lazen book to talk about that particular topic? And I. I shouldn't be opposite him weighing in on that conversation at all. That is what we see happening on cnn, not debate from experts who have any right to be having those conversations. They put on foolishness.

[B]

Well, that's true, but I will say that, like, I'm an expert on that motherfucker straight. I got straight updates every day. I'm listening to all you want to talk about how wide the straight is, where the stuff is coming from, how Iran's capability. I'm an expert on that.

[C]

Rachel, you have my. My greatest hope and sympathy and gratitude for navigating this podcast.

[B]

I'm into that straight every day.

[A]

You got a piece of it.

[C]

You got a piece of it.

[B]

I'm into that straight every day, baby. Shout out to all the people out there. I'm into that.

[A]

It's just a lot of that example about that thunderstorm. I said, is he talking about us? It's raining. That's us.

[C]

Yeah, but that. That is. I think that's why people tune in, because you both have. Have a healthy exchange of ideas and ideology. You're not insulting each other. You know, it's just. Well, you insult.

[A]

We bicker.

[C]

We bicker.

[A]

We're like family.

[C]

I think that's fine.

[B]

Nobody else better not say nothing to her.

[C]

That. That's how we move. That is like, my whole point. That's my whole point. He is that whole cross.

[B]

As always. Great podcast.

[C]

This was the best. Yeah. I'm telling you, Van knows. I was like, man, your podcast is the one I'm most excited about being on. So both you guys, I can't thank you enough. This has been great.

[B]

All the love. I'm not on the back of the book, though. I know all of these people.

[C]

You didn't give me a blurb. You didn't give me a blurb.

[A]

Tell everyone where they can get the book.

[C]

You can get the book everywhere. Books are sold. But this is what I've been saying, because I'm guilty of this, too. Like, you look at the book and it's like, oh, let me go to Amazon. Do your thing. But Jeff Bezos funds a lot of these shitty policies we're seeing. And there are black bookstores everywhere, all across the country that has a financial incentive in people putting our dollars there. And they can ship everywhere. So the Doc Book Shop in Dallas can ship to DC. Mahogany Books in DC can ship to New Orleans. Baldwin Co. In New Orleans can ship to Fruit. Where are we going? Reparations Club here in la.

[B]

Van and I. Yeah, we should talk about that.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Yes. So I'm very excited. Van and I are doing our book talk at reparations club on May 16th. 15th. May 15th. Van and Jamel and I will be in conversation. I asked Van months ago, and honestly, when I was done writing the book, I thought it would be a great conversation for you and I to have. That's how we ended up talking about the podcast and everything, because I also wanted to make sure one was around two. So I was like, Van and Rachel would be good together. And so Jamel, Van and I. And I hope you can make it, Rachel. If you come, I'll put a microphone in your hand, but I know I've monopolized your time. But I hope people tune into the book tour. The book tour has been selling out all over the country, so I'm very pleased with that. I told these guys I was heartbroken because I didn't make the New York Times bestseller list.

[B]

You just told people not to get the book on Amazon.

[A]

No, that's not the only place that is not. Bookstores as hell is a really great way to make the list.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Because people buy in bulk on these other sites, and that's why they get

[C]

the politics and pros like all those. They are New York Times.

[B]

Shout out to Chrisean Trotman, too. Yes.

[C]

Chris. Sean Trotman, who was my editor, a publisher. It's not common for a black woman to be a publisher. Chrishan is the head honcho. So shout out to Chrisean Trotman and shout out to Rachel and Van for the amazing conversation today. But also just for the platform you guys have built, you know? Thank you. Yeah. I don't know if you guys feel it, because it's hard to feel it

[A]

when you're in it. It's hard to feel it.

[C]

Yes. But people tell me all the time like, it's a. A cultural reference point. People bring it up all the time. People say, did you hear what Van and Rachel talked about? Or, like, like your clips where you're, like, weighing in on something? They go viral. People will send them to me. So you guys are part. I would rather people be tuning into this than some of the other platforms.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you. We won't make you name it, but we do appreciate the love.

[B]

That's enough podcasts. Thank you to Tiffany Cross for joining us. Us Take your think caps off with do not stop learning. I'm Dan Langton Jr.

[A]

I'm Rachel Lynn. Lindsay.