Comedy, Music, and the Black Church With KevOnStage

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay
Episode: Comedy, Music, and the Black Church With KevOnStage
Release Date: February 27, 2026
Guest: KevOnStage (Kevin Fredericks)

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Episode Overview

In this thoughtful and hilarious episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay welcome comedian, content creator, and studio founder KevOnStage (Kevin Fredericks) for a dynamic conversation covering rejection in the entertainment industry, the evolving role of the Black church in culture and arts, the art of pitching, comedy in a changing world, music and nostalgia, and navigating public life in the age of the internet. The episode keeps a candid, often vulnerable tone as Kev shares personal lessons, his creative philosophy, and the tensions between tradition, change, and authenticity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Handling “No” and Turning Rejection Into Fuel

• KevOnStage’s perspective on rejection:

  • “No often fuels me…I can build chips to like, nigga, you gonna tell me no? You know what I'm saying? I'm gonna show you.” (00:40)
  • “If you don’t ask, it’s already no anyway, so at least ask.” (01:01)

• The “Churchy” experience:

  • Kev describes the repeated rejection of his show Churchy by networks—unique advice from Black executive Sheila Duckworth (“your first pitch should be something important to you and something you know more than anybody else” [02:54])—leads him to self-produce the series.
  • Creating and releasing Churchy on his own platform proved both his ability and the show’s audience, shifting his leverage in the industry (“Once I made that…so many doors that were closed were now open.” [04:19])

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2. Pitching and Navigating Hollywood as a Black Creator

• The importance of concise, resonant pitches:

  • Van: "Pitch is very important...I know people who are master pitchers and they get more shit on air..." (08:29)

• Translating ideas for 'the room':

  • Kev: “You’re pitching to white people. You need to connect your pitch to something they know.” (09:47)
  • Example: Judas and the Black Messiah was sold as “The Departed set within the Black Panther party.” (09:21)
  • Executives are risk-averse: “He [an NBC exec] said he never got in trouble for saying no…” (10:00)

• On industry expectations and social media:

  • “Thank the Lord that what I did to build my own stuff ended up being my superpower when it used to be seen as a negative.” (11:37)

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3. Fear, Resilience, and Creativity in Adversity

• On overcoming fear:

  • “You don’t really get rid of the fear…you just do it. You just push past it.” (12:56)
  • Sharing failures as much as successes to normalize struggle in the creative process.

• Resilience and pivoting:

  • “My greatest superpower is pivoting.” (14:53)
  • “When you don’t have the resources, you really gotta figure it out…some of our greatest things have come from lack…We wouldn’t have oxtail without oppression, you know what I’m sayin’?” (15:18)
  • Sports analogy: “Steph Curry…misses baskets still every single game. But you don't need to make every single basket to be the greatest…” (15:36)

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4. Comedy, Edges, and Cultural Shifts

• Line-walking and audience awareness in comedy:

  • “Good comedians want to find the line. Sometimes I feel like lazy comedians just want to be offensive and crude…that to me is not good comedy.” (20:26)

• Context, shifting boundaries, and the internet:

  • “Comedy is always…the funniest when it’s relevant to the time period.” (21:00)
  • The difference in comedic boundaries over time; jokes that were once acceptable aren’t anymore (“Bernie Mac’s set was not problematic to me at all. When I go back and watch it now…I don’t imagine he would perform that set [today] the exact same way.” [22:34])
  • Internet permanence and virality have changed the stakes for comics.

• Protecting communities in comedy:

  • “People choose who they protect and they choose who they go after…it's easy to come at us [Black people], right? Cause we unprotected." (24:54)

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5. Political Speech, Platform, and Nuance

• On when/where to address “heavy” topics:
  • Kev saves political and nuanced discussions for his podcasts and longform audio, not quick takes on social media (“If you want to hear me talk about political topics, it’s almost always on my podcast.” [28:10])
  • “The biggest mistake you can make is rush to be first…you don’t even have the information often.” (31:29)
  • Applied this lesson to discourse over a Bafta controversy, illustrating how situations evolve as more context emerges.

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6. Music, Nostalgia, and The Black Church’s Influence

• Skipped tracks and what makes a classic album:

  • Kev and Rachel joke about which beloved albums have “skips”—and how that doesn't undermine their status as “classics.” (33:50–39:00)

• Kev’s top five gospel artists:

  • 1. Kirk Franklin ("The only gospel artist to me that has been relevant in multiple decades." [41:54])
  • 2. John P. Kee
  • 3. Fred Hammond
  • 4. Mary Mary ("Along with Kirk, were probably the most visibly successful people to incorporate elements of hip hop and R&B into gospel music." [42:20])
  • 5. The Clark Sisters ("Twinkie Clark alone should be heralded in the same way that Quincy Jones is..." [43:44])

• Shifts in church music:

  • More CCM (Contemporary Christian Music) in Black churches; Kev doesn’t connect with it the same way—ties to changes in church culture and community. (44:17)

• The Black church as a “conservatory”:

  • “The Black church was the greatest conservatory for not just music. Public speakers, comedians, rappers. I honed my skills in church…” (48:52)

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7. The Black Church Today: Nostalgia, Critique, and Evolution

• Missing the “monoculture” of the church:

  • “I do miss it. And I also miss…the way life felt when Blockbuster was a big part of life…I feel like my friends was in church. I met Melissa in high school. I ended up going to her church just so I could see her more…” (54:49)

• Black church as both gift and harm:

  • Parallel with strict, loving parenting—recognizes both support and pain from traditions (61:17)
  • “…I was taught to be homophobic sitting in church five times a week…It was reinforced from my family.” (62:36)

• Kev’s personal evolution:

  • “The first time I had a contrary thought…was holding my son. I was like, ‘yeah, I don’t really care if this boy is gay or straight. This is my son.’” (63:39)

• Holding space for complexity:

  • “I cannot not acknowledge the harm that was done. And I think you hold space for both of those.” (68:15)

• Changing perspectives in scriptural interpretation:

  • “So I choose…and I can’t definitively say one way or another because I’m not a theologian…But I do know that I will not make people who are gay feel less than.” (83:27–84:07)
  • “We interrogate the Bible all the time…Why can we not interrogate sexuality?” (84:28)
  • Updating personal beliefs to align with greater inclusivity—citing family, real relationships, and generational shifts.

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8. Navigating Visibility, Privacy, and Criticism

• Protecting personal life:

  • “The more visible I become, the less I’m actually sharing about my actual life.” (91:46)
  • Describes boundaries around public grief and keeping family and close friends private.

• The cost of online fame:

  • “People treat highly visible famous people like they’re not human, because to them, they're just a character.” (93:42)
  • “You win enough, they're gonna be like, we sick of these people winning. It’s time for a new league.” (93:26)

• Public scrutiny and resilience:

  • “It’s natural…so be, like, cognizant of how you move around.” (94:03)
  • Kev and Van laugh about trolling and backlash, noting that internet criticism is the cost of putting yourself out there.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

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• On pitching Hollywood:

  • “Don't pitch what you want to see. Pitch what they want to see.” – Kev (09:57)

• On creativity and adversity:

  • “Some of our greatest things have come from lack…We wouldn’t have oxtail without oppression.” – Kev (15:18)

• On comedy and boundaries:

  • “Good comedians want to find the line. Sometimes I feel like lazy comedians just want to be offensive and crude…that to me is not good comedy.” – Kev (20:26)

• On evolving as a parent:

  • “How you hit him to tell him not to hit him? That didn’t…And that's literally the last time I hit my kids.” – Kev (68:56)

• On navigating fame and privacy:

  • “You need good friends, good group chat, good family. Don’t let the Internet become your friends, your group chat, your family, because you are content to them.” – Kev (92:39)

• On inclusivity and the church:

  • “All Black people are important to me. And I’m so sorry if you don’t feel that way. That won’t be…that’s a place we gotta part ways.” – Kev (106:41)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:38-06:49 — Rejection, pitching, and self-producing “Churchy”
• 08:29-11:58 — The art of pitching and Hollywood gatekeeping
• 12:56-16:28 — Fear, resilience, and creative pivots
• 17:15-24:47 — Comedy, God’s sense of humor, navigating changing comedic standards
• 28:10-33:47 — Political topics, short-form vs. longform, and responsibility in content creation
• 33:50-44:05 — Music, what defines a “classic” album, and the evolution of gospel
• 48:41-54:49 — The Black church’s impact on talent and culture, changes in its role
• 61:17-72:43 — Black church, personal evolution, faith, and embracing complexity
• 91:24-101:56 — Fame, maintaining privacy, boundaries, internet criticism, and personal grief
• 109:05-115:01 — R&B nostalgia and heated debates (Drew Hill vs. Boyz II Men; Anita Baker “controversy”)
• 113:12-end — On community, nostalgia, food, and the value of disagreement

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Closing Reflection

The episode is a masterclass in balancing vulnerability with humor and highlighting the complicated ties between Black creativity, community, and culture—particularly as they intersect in the Black church, music, and new media. KevOnStage’s journey and insights—spanning honest failures to the evolving meaning of faith and community—set a profound, relevant tone for listeners.

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Guest Socials:

• KevOnStage: [@KevOnStage on social media platforms]

Listen on:

• Spotify, Apple Podcasts, The Ringer network platforms

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Warriors, what is up? Higher learning is on. It's Ivan Lathan Jr.

[C]

It's me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[B]

We have a guest with us today. It is the entire podcast. Kev on stage joins us today.

[A]

I bumped my lip on the mic. It's a great day. Thank you for having me. I've been wanting to do this for a long time.

[C]

And we were just saying before you got on, I can't believe you haven't been on the show.

[A]

I know.

[C]

We're fans. We're both fans.

[A]

I never want to ask. I never want to. Yeah, it's tough.

[B]

How do you handle no?

[A]

Ooh, it really depends. No often fuels me. I can be sort of histrionic, like, Jordan, I can build chips to like, nigga, you gonna tell me no? You know what I'm saying? I'm gonna show you. Other times it's just be like, dang, nigga, you really said no. And then other times it's like, worst they can say is no. Like when I was promoting Churchy and I was like, man, I really gotta get out there. Like, I was adopting the, like, it's already no if you don't ask. So if you ask and it's still no, you didn't materially change anything. But if you ask and it's yes, you've actually gained something. So that's my latest one is like, if you don't ask, it's already no anyway, so at least ask. Worst you can do is just already know him and people don't. I found people, like, on my Ask for podcasts. People are rarely like, no, I don't know who you are, and I would not like you on my podcast. That don't happen. But I think just fear of rejection, abandonment from inner child, just. It sticks with you for a long time. No matter how much your life has changed, you really kind of got to retrain your mind. Because who I am, it will be yes, more likely, right? But that fear of no be like, I don't wanna be embarrassed. I think in so many ways, we're still the little kids we were in elementary school. You don't wanna be embarrassed. You don't wanna be rejected from the cool kids. You hope people are nice and wanna do you, not wanna do you, but wanna have you. But that small hint of no and rejection be enough to be like, nah, I'm good. I don't wanna.

[C]

I like this conversation because I feel like someone looks at you, right, and they see everything that you're doing, right? Like, you seem like you're touching every single corner of entertainment. They would probably think you don, but they don't see all the no's that you got to build what it is that you have. What would you say? Because I get. I think about this too. Like, what's the. What's the no you're so glad you got? Because it turned into something even greater, man.

[A]

I think probably the no I'm so glad I got was no. We don't want to make Churchy. I think Churchy got passed on a lot when I was pitching it prior to making it, and I was like, dang, I really want to make this. I want to make a TV show. I'd already been pitching a different show, and a black executive really gave me some of the best pitching advice ever. I was bombing this pitch I was pitching. Me, my brother, my wife were pitching this show about a funeral home, and she was just like, what? Not rude at all. She was just like, what do you know about funeral homes? And I was like, I don't know. I just think this show will be funny. She was like, but have you worked in one? What makes you uniquely capable of making this show? And I was like, I literally just think it's funny. And she was like, I think your first pitch should be something that is important to you and something you know more than anybody else. Right? So I was like, okay. That was actually really good advice. Shout out to the black. Black executive. Sheila Duckworth is the one who gave me that advice. So I went back and made Churchy, like, the deck concept, pilot, all that type of stuff. Couldn't get it pitched to. I mean, probably for two years, maybe at least 18 months. Probably two years. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And the last no, this executive, white dude, he was like. He said the same thing everybody else had been saying. Like, we just don't know how Middle America's gonna feel about it. Which is very coded language for, like, are white people gonna watch a show? If they're not, by and large, we're not gonna make it. Can't make it. So I was like, all right, bet. I'm going to save my brand new money. I'm gonna save my money from Spectrum. I'm gonna save my money from the road. I'm just gonna make this. I'm gonna make eight episodes. At this time, I had Kevin Onstage Studios. I'm like, I'm gonna make it, and I'm gonna make it for the app, and I'm gonna prove that it works. And it was a humongous success for my app specifically, but it wasn't enough to, like, keep the app going. We still had all these other issues with. I mean, the same issues Netflix and HBO Max have burnout. People watch all the stuff and turn it off. But we don't have the cap. We didn't have the capital to compensate for or like, we make an awards, we can make, you know, make sense of it. So long story short, once I made that and made eight episodes of tv, so many doors that were closed were now open. Cause now I'm not pitching you a TV show. I'm asking you to license a show that's already made with proof that an audience likes this, right? So that door opened. And then I also proved to myself I can make it. Like, that was probably the most important thing. Even more than selling it. Like, Jess, you have made eight episodes of 30 minutes of television. You have done that. So once I did that, I was like, literally in the middle of that. I was like, nigga, if I can do a TV show, I can do a movie. There's actually less work to do a movie. Cause TV is eight episodes, 30 minutes. That's whatever the math is. 180 hours. I mean, 180 minutes of content, whatever. I'm not good at math. But a movie's only 90 minutes, right? So I'm like, It like, opened my eyes. But then we were able shout out to Jamal Henderson, Spring Hill. We were able to sell Jamal, Big Guy, world wide west of Hollywood. He hit me and was like, yo, I watched this on your app. I think we can get this sold. Got it licensed to bet. They picked up a second season. Then I redid the same thing with Churchill. I made the hospital for my Patreon. BET ended up licensing it and then made Safe Space Tubie ended up licensing it. So it's like, had I got yes on Churchy, I probably would be still doing the Hollywood like, can you make this for me? Can I pitch this? Can I do that? And nothing wrong with that, but I think this path is a lot easier for me because to answer your question about no, the one no that's really hard is a creative no on something I know is right. And the one thing about networks that I don't like is when they can say no because they bought it. And once they pay for it, they have the big joker. Up until that point, I always had the big joker. So in church of season two, they were like, the code opens don't make sense. Cut them out. That was a huge one. And I was like, but no, black people know this. It's gonna make sense. And they were like, nah. And I was like, this is the wrong choice. But they like, we went back and forth on it for a good amount of time and it was like, it's absolutely no. And I was like.

[D]

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[C]

Celsius Live Fit.

[D]

Go grab a cold refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate [e-mail].

[B]

yeah, we've talked about three things that are really interesting here. The first is if you're listening to me and you in Atlanta, you in New Orleans, you're coming to la, you're doing your thing, man. That pitch is very important.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I know people who are master pitches, master pitchers, and they get more shit on the air just cause in a room, I mean, and sometimes the shit they get on the air is like not the best, but like in a room they can make you see it in a short amount of time. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And everybody is riveted. I'm like, yo man, how did you do that? And then on the backside of it, two things. One, just making something and having made it, just nuts. I mean, I know that sounds stupid, but in a place where everybody has an idea, having the discipline, the resourcefulness to actually have made it and then have something to show someone, it just Puts you so far ahead of everybody

[A]

else you have made. I might say something about the pitch that. I just saw this on Twitter. I was gonna make this video. Shaka King, who made Judas and Black Messiah. Somebody said the way he pitched that is he told the executives it's the Departed set within the Black Panther party. And I was like, wow, I love Judas. And the Black Messiah. Never made that connection at all. It's not a crime thriller to me. It is the story of Fred Hampton's murder right to me. But a white executive, one of my old agents, told me to get a pitch sold. Unfortunately, he pulled me to the side. He was like, listen, man, you're pitching to white people. You need to connect your pitch to something they know.

[B]

Don't pitch what you want to see. Pitch what they want to see.

[A]

He said, I got to tell you, Kev, I know you probably don't like this. We pitch you as the black Jim Gaffigan because they don't know who you are. But they do know Jim Gaff. And I'm like, God dang it. Wholesome, dad. That's how we pitch. And they're like, we know Jim Gaffigan. Okay, Right. Because they are literally not familiar. Right? So that's one thing. But to your point, one of my old executives, man, he said he was the head of NBC drama for, like, 20 years, and he said he never got in trouble for saying no. You pitch something. He passed on, like, 24 all kind of great hit shows. He said, I never got reprimanded for saying no to a great show. I got in trouble for saying yes to a failed show, right? So to protect my job, it's actually better for me to say no, because I can go to my boss and say, this is why I don't think this works. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But when I say something works and it doesn't work, that's what gets you canned. So if you have made it, that's already. There's way less. You got less development fees, pilot season, casting, all that stuff. And if you can now license it, it's cheaper for them. So now it's like, well, why shouldn't we? Once you can get to why shouldn't we, boy, you're in a totally different leverage position. Like, we might as well throw this up. He's already got eight episodes. He's got this audience. So that's my. So far, that's been my leverage, and I thought it was my detriment. Ooh, hallelujah. That's a word Cause before in Hollywood, being on socials was like, you're not for real. You gotta have true Hollywood and all that type of stuff. And then, lo and behold, now it's like, well, where are your followers? Where's your audience? How are you gonna get these people to come watch? That used to be the network's responsibility to market the show. Like, you got the money, you need to put the commercials and the billboards and set up the daytime television. Now they expect the creator to create it, sometimes make it, and market it. So thank the Lord that what I did to build my own stuff ended up being my superpower when it used to be seen as a negative.

[C]

Yeah, you were ahead of the game for sure when it comes to that. Speaking of superpowers, I feel like one of your superpowers is that you just have this gift where everybody feels like they know you. Everybody. No, like, even when I first started following you, I just felt like I was like, don't I know him from somewhere? Something feels so familiar about you. And, I don't know, I guess maybe it's relatable. It's the way you talk to people, and if they don't know you, they want to know you. And something that you said when you were just talking about what it is that you do and pitching, you talked about fear. And it's like, again, people see what you do, they see the success, and they might think, oh, like, he's past that. He doesn't have that for somebody who's watching. Because I put up that we were interviewing you on the podcast. I was like, finally, right? And a lot of what people had to say, they wanted to know, like, how did you get past it? How did you build your vision? How did you see it and get past that fear in order to create the life that you have and that you know you're gonna continue?

[A]

Yeah. I think for me, it's like, man, you don't really get rid of the fear.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you just do it. Like, you just push past it. And I don't mean to be, like, super cliche, but it's like, I take massive Ls all the time, and I'm actually very vocal about them because I want people to know, like, it ain't all sweet out here. I'm taking a massive L in the podcasting space as we speak. Podcasting revenue was crushing. Right. I thought after the pandemic, I was like, oh, it's gonna go down. Blah, blah, blah. It went up. I was like, oh, this is great. After that it did what I thought would happen in the pandemic. So I told them, like, there was a deal that was on the table, that I was like, okay, we've been getting the. You know, we gonna have this stuff. We gonna have high learning. We have producers and social cutters and all that type of stuff. And we were right there, and I was like, all right, cool. We gonna be able to do this. Relieve some pressure off of me when I tell you that deal fell apart. This was like a month ago. I was like, but guess what? I'm like, okay, I still got these employees to pay for. I can't let them go. So what can I do, Right? I'm gonna lean more into Patreon, right? I'm gonna create some show that's just for my Patreon. And I learned from my app, when you release shows 10 episodes at a time, what people do is they will pay at the beginning, see if they like it, then cut it off, wait till all 10 episodes are there, and then they'll turn it back on the 10th episode, Burn through it in a weekend, and cut it back off, right? So I'm like, okay, I know that's gonna happen. So now I'm gonna release this new show on my Patreon once a month. So if you want to come in and click on and click off, you're going to have to pay the $5 every single month or you go miss out. Right? But that comes from. No, that comes from I'm not getting the podcast deal that I want, and my greatest superpower is pivoting. I still know I got to get these employees paid for.

[B]

You're resilient.

[A]

I'm resilient. I'm just like, okay, that door is closed. How can we get over here? How am I going to get over here? I love one of the Wayne's quotes. They said they actually were the most creative when they had no money because they had to figure out how to do it. When you have a lot of money, you can try anything. Sometimes it doesn't push you creatively, but when you don't have the resources, you really gotta figure it out. And I think even just being poor and black and, you know, black people, some of our greatest things have come from lack. You know, the way a pig can be eaten and edible is because we didn't have access to everything. The bad parts become the good parts. We wouldn't have oxtail without oppression. You know what I'm saying?

[C]

Or chitlins.

[A]

Or chitlins. You know what I'm saying we learned

[B]

our lesson with that one.

[A]

To answer your question, I think you take them lumps and you just don't let it stop you. I use a sports analogy because I love them. Steph Curry, greatest shooter of all time. He does miss baskets still every single game. He does not win every single game. But you don't need to make every single basket to be the greatest. You don't need to make every single basket to win every game. You don't need to make every single basket to win the championship. But I think people be so afraid to even shoot, then they be like, well, I'm not even gonna do nothing. Well, then you gonna lose for sure and you can't be nothing. So for me, I just won't stop. Cause like in the back of my mind, if I give up, I'm going back to Boeing, going back to the bank and I'm like, well, that I can't do, right? I know that I'll do whatever I can to at least stay here or even I can't stay in la. I'll be like, well, I'll move to South Carolina, I'll move to Mississippi, lower my cost of living. I'll do a lot of stuff to make it happen. Like it's gonna be hard to shut me up.

[C]

Not Mississippi.

[A]

I'll go where the black people go be. I mean you to Jackson. Yeah, Jackson is a great. And I'm gonna be negatively.

[B]

I mean like I love Jackson.

[A]

Jackson, Mississippi. I had. We went to a show there. I hadn't been in Jackson in a long time. We went to a show there. When I tell you the people in Jackson was like the most lit audience we had all tour. They was nice in the hotels. I'll go live in Jackson. I'll go to Jackson State games maybe, you know, nevermind.

[B]

Yeah, like we used to travel from, you know, sometimes it would be in Baton Rouge and sometimes it would be at Jackson State. We'd go up there to Jackson. The weekend in Jackson that we would have would be fire.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

They weren't checking IDs in Jackson. He was doing all kinds. We was fired. I love that city.

[A]

Jackson, Mississippi. All right with me.

[B]

Yeah, I love that city. Let me ask you this. I always. So much of the stuff that you do is based in your connection to the church. So much of your identity is based in the church. What evidence do you have that God has a sense of humor? That God likes to laugh?

[A]

Platypus.

[B]

My favorite animal.

[A]

Come on, man.

[B]

My favorite animal.

[A]

You mean to Tell me you were being dead serious when you made the platypus. Like, giraffes. You playing, man, you was like, what if I made one with just, like, a really long neck? Like, that's late in the game for you. You being funny when you make a giraffe. It's an unnecessary animal. You feel me? So it's like. And even, like, finding humor in tragedy. Like, I'm doing this grief sucks thing, and it's like, humor, especially for black people, humor sometimes is all we have. Like, sometimes the things be so racist, you got to laugh. Google AI seem more on niggers.

[B]

That's funny.

[C]

He did it last podcast. He laughed.

[B]

I'm like, it's funny, man. It's funny.

[A]

It's funny again, because we can't just be mad all the time.

[C]

Mad all the time.

[A]

So I think that between platypuses, platypi drafts, and see more on niggers, Google AI like, the thing be so blatant. You be like, God, dawg, Y'. All. It's like, y' all not even trying.

[C]

No, they're not trying to hide it.

[B]

So somebody hit me on. Somebody hit me up on Twitter. And they go. And they go. They said, van, you know, we've heard so many stories about your dad. We've heard so much about your dad. I always like when you talk about your dad. It would be awesome to if you could, you know, put your dad on the podcast so we could see him on the podcast. And I was like. And I responded. I went, it would be tough to get him on. It would be tough.

[C]

Did you explain further why?

[B]

No, no, no. I let the people who got the joke get the joke. I was like, that's gonna be a tough dude. And then. Cause that, to me, is to me, the fact that that person asked that question not knowing, I could have been like, oh, man, my dad died at 21 and all that. But the fact that that person. That's funny to me, that's hilarious. They didn't know what they was doing.

[A]

That's very funny to me.

[B]

And that's what I'm talking about. Sometimes it feels like, though, where we are right now, we are uncomfortable with uncomfortable laughter. It used to be that we were way too comfortable laughing at things that maybe we shouldn't have been laughing at. Like, we did the best black shows draft on the Midnight Boys. And I talked a lot about In Living Color, and I told people to go back and watch In Living Color. Then I said, now when you watch

[A]

it, small comment okay.

[B]

Like, when you watch it, I want you guys to understand it's 1991.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

At that time, we all knew that there were things you weren't supposed to laugh at.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now I feel like we're having a conversation about whether or not we should find certain things funny for sure. How does that, like, land with you as a comedian?

[A]

I think comedy. Good comedians. Right. Cause here's the truth. I've never said this quite like this, but I want to say this. Good comedians want to find the line. Sometimes I feel like lazy comedians just want to be offensive and crude. And that has its place. Shock jocks, you just say the thing. You know, we bringing back these words. We stop. Saying that to me is not good comedy. Shock comedy can get laughs the way a fart joke is funny, but after a while, you're like, all right, man, fart jokes, like, farting is funny to me, but it's like, okay, you know, there's a limit to it.

[C]

Right?

[A]

So I think, to answer your question is comedy is always should be or the funniest when it's relevant to the time period. So In Living Color, plus the Wayne sense of humor, plus no holds barred, Homie the Clown. They was making fun of disabled people, everybody. Nobody was there because they were wild. That was also. If you think about wrestling at the same time, that was America. Comedy could be that wrestling was that Wrestling's kind of always reflective of society. I learned this in the documentary they Went Crazy with women in the late 2000s. It was like, super sexy America. Sexy Girls Gone Wild was also on tv. It was like, comedy's like that. What the Internet has done is as a comedian, prior to the Internet, and, I mean, I've always kind of been on the Internet, but not in the way where somebody would post your thing and post it on Twitter. It could go viral. You would realize, yo, this joke ain't really hit no more. I think this is kind of offensive. You would just take it out of your set. That's all you had to do was remove it from your set. Because of the Internet and access to stuff. You can go back to a time where it's like, well, yeah, man, I wouldn't really. I wouldn't say that joke no more. Right. But you said it then was like, bernie Mac's a great example. When I saw Kings of Comedy, Bernie Mac's set was not problematic to me at all. I just thought it was purely hilarious. When I go back and watch it now, I'm just like, ooh, that's Crazy. I don't think Bernie. I can't speak for him, but I don't imagine he would perform that set. Actually, let me say it this way. If he performed that set the exact same way today, it would be received very differently. Any good comedian will be like, oh, yo, this ain't really getting a laugh. The same way I should adjust this. Take this. Even if it's true, I believe that story was true about his nieces and nephews and stuff. But in true.

[B]

Ish true is he talks about the fact that that existed, but he took some license.

[A]

For sure. For sure. Yeah. I meant, like, those were really his nephews, and he took creative liberties to make it more funny. Yeah. But that would not be received the same way. So as a good comedian, he probably would either take it out or adjust it to how time is, you know? And for me, there's some jokes that I made early in my career or early in my Internet career that I'm like, oh, this ain't funny. I went through in private videos, deleted tweets, like, because I know if you go back and find those and bring it to today's lens, it's no longer funny. But I know that because I stopped making that type of joke or I don't even do that type of thing. Or, like, even roasting. Right. All deaf roasting was a huge part of our brand. Still is today. There are jokes that are allowed on a roast. Cause everybody understands on a roast, I can say stuff that I couldn't say in a regular setting. But what was happening at all? Def Roasting culture became part of who we were as people outside of that. So then we just was roasting everybody. Then out of context and out of the context of roasting, people were like, yo, that's just kind of actually offensive. And I'm like, oh, yeah, you see that? But all my followers at that time were all def fans, so I felt like they understood I still had to go back and clean up some stuff like that. But to answer your question in a more succinct way, I think a good comedian should always be knowing the pulse of society and their audience and how people think. Like, punching down wasn't a term that I knew of when I first started comedy. Like, you just were trying to be funny. Now I know what punching down is. So I try to be as funny to as many people as possible without sacrificing myself. And sometimes that means I don't say this joke that's not gonna go over, that's not gonna go funny. If you say you protect black women and the sketches you write don't reflect that, people are gonna call you out on it. And sometimes you gotta be checked. You know what I'm saying? I think that's part of being in community with people is sometimes like, yo, yo, Kev, you was tripping on that. Oh, that's my bad, old van, you was tripping on that. Or Rachel, you was tripping on that. And if we respect each other, then we'll listen to that. But we're just like, nah, nah, it's funny. And y' all just hard. I mean, y' all just sensitive.

[B]

Like, should anybody be protected in comedy?

[A]

Absolutely. I think people are always protected. I think people choose who they protect and they choose who they go after. Like, so black people are often. It's easy to come at us, right? Cause we unprotected. Overall, I think it also depends. Like, sometimes people just want to see a crude comedian be crude. That's your choice as an artist. You have the choice to make whatever art you make, but you don't have the choice to be absolved of the consequences of that art. You know what I'm saying? So I know I protect black women. It's my goal to protect black women in comedy. I don't just throw them out there. I'm considerate of how it makes them feel or look on screen. And even representation, like, in my shows, I'm making sure that I'm literally looking at the cast and making sure there's deep brown skinned women, there's fat black women. And I mean, I'm fat. My homegirls, we be fat. Everybody be fat. Within my actual circle, not just, like casting people. I'm talking about my actual friends from high school, from church. So I want my shows to be reflective of how my life is. You know, that's important to me. That's not important to Hollywood. It's like love is blind. You rarely see fat or unattractive people on those shows. It's like, yeah, can you find love? We not. We trying to find the most beautiful people. And, you know, maybe there's a person or two that is not objectively beautiful, but for the most part, it's not really Love is Blonde. Because as soon as people see each other, they be like, hey, man, you sounded different and I'm not attracted to you out mouth, you know what I'm saying?

[C]

You should do a dating show.

[A]

My wife actually did One Love onstage for our app, and actually one of the couples got married and had kids. Oh, wow. Robert And Bria, y' all are good. Yeah, my wife put together. And so to that point, like, we actually. She had good, messy drama on tape. And she was just like, that's not who I am. And that's not the type of show I want to make. If she had a producer at Bravo or E, they would have been like, girl, what is you talking about? I mean, it was gold. But her actual goal, her actual goal was to help people find love. Not under the guise of finding love, to make good tv. Cause I think most of those shows are just like, here's how we draw you. We really just want to make good tv.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I think the fact that there's a married couple right now who has children because of the show Melissa created is proof that if you want to stick to what you want to do, you can. Or you can take the thing and make good tv. If it would have made good tv, it probably would have been much bigger of a show. But, you know, that ain't what you. That wasn't what we was trying to do.

[C]

That's the power of. Yeah. Owning it and having. Being in charge of the tv.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. Because the network would have been like, girl, you tripping. I'm so sorry. This on tv.

[C]

Absolutely. She would have lost that control. I'm curious because even just hearing you explain Van's question about who's off limits or however he posed it, how do you decide when to not post about stuff that's politically charged or when to. And do you get pressure from your audience to be like, why haven't you said anything on this?

[A]

That's a great question. I do get pressure. What I have come around to is I very rarely talk about political discourse on short form media. Facebook, Twitter, TikTok. Cause it's so much. The conversations are so much bigger than 3 minute segments allow you for. If you want to hear me talk about political topics, it's almost always on my podcast. Here's the thing with angel, because 30 minutes, an hour, an hour and a half, it allows you to have time for the nuance, for the context that is necessary. I think the most recent thing that I was talking about just talked about the baftas, but there was something else that happened before that. And somebody. Ice. I was talking about ice. And somebody was like, it's actually a breath of fresh air for you to speak up. Cause I don't see you speaking up about political discourse that often. And so many people in my comments were like, oh, you gotta watch this podcast And I've said it on the podcast, but I haven't made a video. It's like, if you wanna hear me talk about political stuff, go to my podcast. I just seen so often you try to make something that's a big thing, condense it for a short form video, and you don't have enough time to make all the points you need to make. So then it gets picked apart. People trim your one thought and reframe it on Twitter with totally different context. And most people take a tweet as framed. They don't go and look for the longer video. If you frame it and the video supports it, then that happens. Me and angel, this happened to us on documentaries three times. What we talked about on podcast has been added to somebody's documentary and we had no idea. One time it was a Lizzo thing and I was talking about how Twitter was talking about Lizzo and I was reading tweets and the way they edited my words, it made it seem like I was personally going at Lizzo. And I was like, y' all trimmed the pre thing and the post thing for black issues. I'm almost always speaking up publicly on podcasts and on short form for other issues that have more nuance. I almost do it on podcasts. I don't speak about things if I don't have enough information to make a public statement. I think sometimes people want you to talk. Like, I'm not just going to talk, just to talk, because I don't want to say something incorrect without having a lot of knowledge. Israel, Palestine, for example, that was a new thing for me. I didn't understand the history of it, but I made the example. I was talking to my kids about this because we always check in with them and see how they feel about the way of the world. And I was asking them at the very beginning of that conflict, I was like, what do y' all think about Israel and Palestine? Like, what are y' all hearing in schools? And my son, my oldest son was like, I don't know much, but if one of them has the power to turn off the WI fi for the other people, I feel like that person probably has the power and is in the wrong. That's what he. In his mind, he was like, if they're controlling the food and the WI fi, the other people don't seem. It doesn't seem to be balanced right. So I just thought that was such an interesting thing from his lens. But I didn't talk about that.

[B]

You know why he knows that? Cause you control the Food in the WI fi. He knows in the situation with you, he's a kid, he hasn't been told that, like all of this other stuff. He knows that you control the food and the WI fi. So if he in a back and forth with you, it's probably not fair.

[C]

But that's a really good point.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. So before I speak, I want to know. And also, I don't rush to be first on hot button topics. I think that's the biggest mistake you can make is rush to be first because you don't even have the information often. And the Baptist is the most recent example. It was somebody yelled a racial slur at Michael B. Jordan. So sometimes as an Internet content creator, first is best. But then it was like, oh, actually that person had Tourette's. So I was like, oh. Cause the first time I saw that Tourette's was not a really. Yeah, the first time I saw it on Twitter, I thought somebody just broke in or somebody there just yelled it. And then it was that he had Tourette's. And then it was like, well, they had told him about Tourette's. And then it was like the baftas was pre recorded and they could have edited it out. And then it was like they actually edited out a Free Palestine thing. Then it was. They actually edited out 10 things. So now it's like, well, then if you left that in, then it feels like that's on purpose. And then he's like, they put a mic in front of me. Why would you do that if I was ticking? So if I would have made that from the first moment I saw that, which I do often, I would have had to make 10 revisions versus just waiting to hear now actually shout out to Instagram. This one time. Their algorithm was great. They showed me so many black people with Tourette's thoughts on this. I was able to listen to people who had way more insight on a subject than I do. And I was like, okay, black women with Tourette's. Black men with Tourette's, Black women with copralia. I can't pronounce it correctly. Let me listen to y', all because you understand this in a way that I don't, and let me help that inform my decision. And then I talked about it on my podcast, but I spent two or three days researching it because I know my audience wants to hear about it. But Tourette is not a thing that I'm familiar with. I actually don't know how it works. I don't know if you are racist or Your brain, like, they were telling me, like, whatever your brain thinks not to say the condition makes you want to say. So I'm like, okay, maybe he's not racist. Then it was like, should he apologize? And he. The whole movie about apologizing. And then he said, f the queen. But then he apologized to the queen. And also, I just think the Internet now doesn't allow for nuance. Everything's black or white. The album's classic or trash instantly. And it's like, there are some of my favorite albums still have skips in them. Does it make it not a classic? If I skip 4, 7, and 9, to me, it's still a classic. You know what I mean?

[B]

You can skip three songs. It's a classic.

[A]

Three songs.

[C]

How many songs are on the album?

[A]

If it's a 12 song album for me, I can skip three songs.

[C]

I will agree with that.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So on a 12 song album, you can skip three songs. That is what

[A]

it's like a quarter.

[B]

A quarter of the album.

[A]

Three.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

That's a passing grade.

[B]

Okay, Passing grade is different than classic. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to think.

[C]

But I would agree with you.

[A]

I think for every.

[B]

Give me a classic with three skips.

[A]

Okay? I'm a big gospel person. Tonay's out the Box album is a classic to me. I skipped all kind of songs. Come on, Ken.

[C]

Why can't he do that? Why can't he do that?

[B]

But I don't know, Tone.

[A]

That's fine.

[B]

I don't know, like, what we talking. You know who I know. I know. Ian's cousin. I know that's. I know the staples of. I know the songs. I can't listen to gospel. Cause I'm not trying to drive around crying, bro.

[A]

Listen to gospel make you cry.

[B]

The music makes me cry.

[C]

There's a beat.

[B]

There's a beat. Listen.

[A]

What gospel are you?

[B]

And I'm listening.

[C]

Richard Small advice.

[B]

Why hit them records? Why hit them records? It just enjoy, like, even. Even Shackles kind of makes me want to cry a little bit.

[C]

Okay. That's just you Van Shackles, man. It's about dancing.

[B]

I'm about to cry right now. It's about dancing. Cause you so happy about God being free.

[A]

Yeah. It's like, you gotta let your feelings out. You don't want feelings, even.

[B]

That's. I look at Mary, Mary, and I'm like, look at how happy they are. I wish I could be that happy about something. Even that song is just difficult. The whole guy, I think, is difficult for Me. But. But. Okay, okay. So Tony. I actually have heard of Tony. Ian, my friend Ian is a gigantic. Ian Vaughn's a gigantic gospel guy. His whole family, gospel people. There's somebody in their family who's actually a big gospel person of some sort. But anyway, so. But I don't know that. I don't know.

[A]

Okay, you mean like a hip hop album?

[B]

You mean some hip hop?

[A]

See, then I don't want the blacks to be upset with me. I'm not a hip hop guy in the way that people often are.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Because. Can I look? Can I make this?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

In my family, you could not listen to anything that wasn't gospel. I didn't have money to buy albums like that till I was like, 15. The first hip hop album I bought was the Ruff Ryders compilation album.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. And that's a good one.

[C]

I was right there.

[A]

I took my money, I bought the Roll Riders compilation album. My brother had an Outkast album. Southern Playlistic Cadillac Music. Yeah. So I only had what my brother had or what was available on radio TV that I could hear with my friends at school. I couldn't get. I got caught with a TLC creep album. My dad took it and threw my whole Walkman away. Cause I was listening to Red Light Cushion. We grew up similar. We grew up similar.

[C]

I repeat, this is a safe space. You're more like me.

[A]

Thank you.

[C]

Because I've told the story how I. It was a very proud moment for me. I took all my CDs, my country CDs, my country music CDs. I took them to the CD store and traded them in when I was 15 for, like, not cash. Oh, my gosh. What is Hot Boys? Hot Boys. I could not think of the name. The Hot Boys, Rough Ryders. My parents caught my sister with all about the Benjamins that threw everything out, then hid them in a closet. Then we found them, threw everything out. I'm with you on that.

[A]

So I'm.

[C]

Whatever you're gonna name, It'll be a

[A]

106 and park TRL word. So I know pretty much everything that was on the radio, on tv, music videos. But if you like Jay Z, Black Album, Blueprint, My brother in Christ.

[C]

Oh, I did buy the Blueprint, though.

[A]

I did get the Blueprint. I'm sorry. The Blueprint.

[C]

I could skip three on there, and I think that's a classic.

[B]

What are the skips on the Blueprint?

[C]

Never change. Even though I do like it. Cause I do like it. Cause it's David Ruffin. I do like it. Cause it's David Ruffin. But I will probably skip that on a re.

[A]

Listen.

[C]

I will probably skip that. I'm not going. It's still a classic. It's David Ruffin. I love David Ruffin. I didn't say I didn't like it. I didn't say I didn't like it. I said I'll skip it. If I'm listening to it, I'm skipping.

[A]

It doesn't have to be a bad song for me to skip.

[C]

I'm just skipping it. If I put it on right now, I'm like, that's not really what I feel like hearing right now.

[A]

You know what? Okay. On Watch the Throne and listen black people. I love you. I love you. Love Watch the Throne. Probably got three skips. Probably a classic album to me. I skip Otis. I don't like Otis.

[B]

Otis is a fantastic record. But I can see what you. I'm not doing outrage with you guys anymore.

[A]

Yeah, there's a Beyonce song. The Beyonce.

[C]

Not a Beyonce song.

[A]

There's the one she sings a hook on. Great song. I'd be skipping it. I don't know that Wash the Throne

[B]

is a classic, though, to me. Yeah, it might be. I don't know that Wash of Thrones a classic.

[A]

Okay, here's a fun fact, right? The amount of albums I have is so small, right? My classics are coloring book, Good Kid, Mad City.

[C]

Love coloring book.

[A]

Watch the Throne. Because I don't have most black people who are hip hop fans. They got 30, 40. I got 30, 40 years of gospel albums, classics, trash, all that type of stuff. But hip hop, I didn't consume that much. To Watch the Throne, it's like, yo, this is a great album.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

I listened to it for years. Good Kid Mad City is no skips for me, but I just don't have it. So I don't be trying to be something I'm not. I can talk to you about the singles, the music video stuff, the radio hits, but you talking about Reasonable Doubt. What's track four? My Brother in Christ? I don't know.

[B]

Okay, so then I'm so with you. So I've heard enough gospel to know the gospel standards and to know the songs that, like, I used to have this friend named Tremaine and Yolanda Adams had. What was the record that that beautiful sister has? The one that her big one, the

[C]

Battle is Not Yours.

[B]

No, no, no.

[C]

Oh, that's the one that was through the Storm.

[B]

No. What's the one that she had one. Am I not thinking of, like, the right. Yolanda Adams singing a little bit?

[A]

Yolanda Adams is the gospel Yolanda Adams singing a little.

[B]

Yeah, but I'm thinking of. She had the song. My homeboy Tremaine used to play this song.

[C]

He was the Open My Heart.

[B]

Open My Heart.

[A]

Open My Heart. That's the third one.

[B]

So he used to play. So whenevere Tremaine was trying to change his life. So whenever Tremaine would get into a situation where he would, like, where it was about to happen, he would go to the car and play Open My

[A]

Heart, like, right away. Fair.

[B]

So I never forget my sister just, like, always triggers people. Yeah, she always likes to push people and trigger people. And she at one time said, no, no more Tremaine in my house. No more Tremaine.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

No more him, no more Tremaine, period. And so he calls me up and he goes, and this is me. This is me being who I am. He calls me up and he goes, where you at? I'm like, I'm at Ebony House. And he was like, can I come through? And I was like, yeah. I was like, yeah, come through, bro. They over here smoking. You know, they're big into illegal illicit drugs. I don't want to offend y', all, but, like, is it like, yeah, they smoking. He comes over, he done stopped and got chips. He done stopped and got chips. He got drink is cool. He think him and Ebony about that. And she looks. She goes, uh,

[A]

out.

[B]

Out. She's like, you can leave all that if you want. Out. And then I'm looking at him and we. Me and Ryan laughing and the whole night out. He look at me. He look at her. He closes the door. This is a movie scene. All you hear when he's driving away is open my heart. He's literally driving away. And it's loud. Cause he got speakers in his seat. All you hear when me and Ryan hear that, we dying on the floor. Dying on the floor laughing. But I want your top five. I want your top five gospel artists of all time.

[A]

Gospel artists.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Far and away number one for me. Kirk Franklin.

[B]

Number one.

[A]

Number one all time. All time. Kirk Franklin is the only gospel artist to me that has been relevant in multiple decades. He has never really lost relevancy from early 90s. That's true.

[B]

Me and him got a lot in common.

[A]

Yeah. Kirk Franklin probably number one to me. Number two, John P. Kee.

[C]

Oh, such a good one.

[A]

John P. Kee. New life Comedian, choir.

[C]

He just did a tiny guest.

[A]

He just Did a tiny, great, tiny desk for legacy artists as well. Legacy artists.

[C]

I was so excited when I saw that. I said, whose idea was this?

[A]

Give me five of your old legacy songs. Throwing a new song, but please don't do so.

[B]

I know this guy.

[A]

Okay, Fred Hammond. Legendary, legendary, legendary gospel artist for me, Kevin. Okay, Number four, Mary. Mary. Okay. Mary. Mary, to me, changed gospel music in a way that few artists can claim to have changed gospel music. They, along with Kirk, were probably the most visibly successful people to incorporate elements of hip hop and R and B into gospel music in a way that crossed over. And their music was played in non gospel areas like that. And the fifth one is the Clark sisters, who also did that same thing years prior. The Clark sisters also, man, they paved the way for so much stuff of gospel music. Their mom, Maddie Moss Clark, just choir harmonies. And their gospel tree, their family tree, J. Moss, Kiera Clark, Shear, J.D. drew. Obviously the Clark sisters, Twinkie Clark alone should be heralded in the same way that Quincy Jones is when it comes to music, period. Not gospel music. Her arrangements, her songwriting, her musical ability, her on the organ. She should be compared to the Quincy Joneses of the world and not just gospel music. So that would be my top five. Wow.

[C]

Who do you like right now? I feel like I don't listen to new gospel music now.

[A]

This one gives me trouble.

[C]

Okay, you don't either.

[B]

You don't like it.

[A]

It's not that I don't like it. These new niggas, it's not even like old head. I feel like the world has changed in a way in my life and in the way of discovery.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

When I grew up, it was only gospel in the house. There was gospel radio. That was the only thing that my family played in the cars. I played instruments for the choir. So we're always learning the new music. Right? Gospel in churches now is being sung less, and what we call CCM or contemporary Christian music is being sung more. Yeah, the black church choir doesn't sing in church like they did when I was a kid. It's mostly worship team, praise team. And it's a lot of ccm. You know, music is what's sung in churches. I don't connect with that the same way I connected to gospel. So probably the most recent artist that I have is not even new. Jonathan McReynolds. I love his music. Travis. Not about to say Travis Kelsey, because I just watched a video about him in the vacation thing, which is repost work, by the way. Repost work. Repost work. It Went viral again.

[B]

Bring it back.

[A]

You brought it back. It worked again.

[B]

But, like, sometimes I look at people say, if you got a big video, bring it back.

[A]

Bring it back 1000%. Something happened with Patrick Mahomes. I reposted Angel. That fried chicken reposted that thing. It went viral like it did the first time. Travis Green is who I was thinking of, but they're not new. I'm so sorry. Gospel people. Red Hands Band, they're from Ohio, I believe. Ohio. Red Hands Band is probably the most new gospel artist. And they're just like, almost a neo soul meets gospel meets snarky puppy. And that was probably the newest artist that I hadn't heard of when I tweeted once, put me onto somebody. Somebody put me on a Red Hands band. And that was probably it. But I'm not as tapped in as I used to be in gospel, and I feel like gospel, unfortunately, unlike. I don't even know if unlike, it hasn't turned over really since. I'd say Ty Tribbett was the last person that was, like, bringing some. He was also kind of neo soul, kind of like that Philly, Atlantic City vibe. He brought that to gospel in an interesting way. Jonathan McReynolds, again, he was like, cool guitar gospel, but not CCM. But outside of that, I'm sorry, y'. All. I ain't been. I be listening to old stuff. I become that old nigga who's, like, 90s. R&B is as good as it gets to me. Swv, man, ain't no Olivia Dean in this house. Even though there's plenty of Olivia Dean in this house. There's so much Olivia Dean in this house.

[B]

Love swb. It's funny that you bring up R and B. So we. Atlanta has all of these new geniuses that are doing their thing. I love what's coming out of Atlanta right now. We hung out with Deontay, Kyle.

[A]

Love him. The man, the man. Have fun.

[B]

We made some culture in Rachel crib. Rachel didn't even know Deontay was coming over.

[A]

Really. Just popped up.

[C]

He just. Door opens, they come through.

[A]

Big cat, Big cat.

[B]

Ice cup. Big Cat was there. Big cat, Deonte.

[C]

I mean, I know who they are from their podcast, but I was like, who told them to come to the house?

[A]

This is Tremaine. He did it with Tremaine. Beyonce. Kyle is Tremaine.

[B]

Cause Rachel put my mom to work. Rachel made my mother come home.

[C]

And you're welcome. I asked if she could make gumbo.

[B]

My mother's on her Vacation. And Rachel made her cook.

[C]

I said, if it's not too late, you gotcha.

[A]

They really low key. Love that. Oh, I guess I can throw something together.

[C]

Had a great time. It turned into a whole thing.

[A]

Yes, it was a great time. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, she went to sleep. But deontay Big Cat was in town. All jokes aside, like, asked him to come over. Love that guy. Fantastic. Amazing brain, ridiculously good energy. But FD signifier as well, who I'm also tapped in with now. Just did a video. And in this Tyler Perry video, which everyone should go watch, he talks about. Just as an aside, he talks about something that I hadn't thought when I thought about the fact that R and B as a music is sort of dwindling or redefining itself. You always think about the fact that hip hop sort of supplanted R and B and more people that can sing now want to be rappers that can sing rather than singers that can sing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But FD said something else.

[A]

Black church, the black church, 1,000%.

[B]

The erosion of the black church. The erosion of music programs in the black church means that the gospel is no longer. The church isn't a conservatory.

[A]

The black church was the greatest conservatory for not just music. Public speakers, comedians, rappers. I honed my skills in church. The first skit I ever did was me and my brother playing David and Goliath in church. We had. It was called Pypu. Pentecostal Young People's Union. I never knew what the U stood for. And we had basically had talent shows at church. Me and my brother wrote skits. I'm gonna be, he's gonna be. I was Goliath, even though he was bigger than me. And we took it so serious and so funny that you were asking, like, how I create some version of that. And MC Hammer was the most popular at this time. It was like 92, 93 maybe. And I was Goliath. And I was like, can't touch this in church. And all the kids was like, oh. Like, I was always marrying hip hop in church culture in church as a kid. And that's still the same thing I do today. But to answer your question, Fred Hammond was talking about how he used to steal from boys to men and Jodeci and they used to steal from him. And R and B artists used to steal from the Clark sisters and the black church. So many musicians were just sight reading. You gonna get up here on that organ and you gonna play no music, no formal lessons. You just sit in that church, you watching him play the Organ, you good? Most good organists start off as good drummers. Then you graduate to the organ. You sing, you get a chance to direct.

[B]

We.

[A]

I was just thinking about this because my kids don't go to church nearly like I went to barely at all, honestly, because I be on the road so much. Melissa. We on the road, we missed it. But also black church doesn't happen as much as it used to happen across the board when I grew up in El Paso. No funny stuff. We were in church five of seven days a week. The only church we didn't. The only day we didn't go to church consistently was Monday and Thursday. We had Bible study on, you know, evangelistical service on Tuesday, Bible study on Thursday, choir rehearsal on Friday, junior choir rehearsal on Saturday, Sunday morning Sunday school, Sunday service, sometimes 3:30 service and night service. For the first 30 years of my life, I only missed Sunday morning church three times in 30 years. In 30 years. One was one I used to say the joke one was the Sunday I was born, even though it's not true. One was Y2K that week we had just moved to Washington. My dad was like, I don't know, y'. All. We just, I was just, we in a new city. Like, we ain't going Sunday. That was watch night service. I don't think it was even on Sunday, but that was a big service that we missed. But now in la, at least most church, the church we go to just has Sunday morning service and maybe Bible study two times. And for a long time they didn't even have Bible study. So church just doesn't exist. And it's for sure not the linchpin of black culture the way it used to be. Civil rights movement, you see Martin Luther King in there, you see all these historical figures in there. Politicians used to have to come to the church to speak. Remember? Even Obama, the Jeremiah Wright thing, that was what his first campaign.008. You don't have to go to a black church to reach black people. If you're a politician today, when the next presidential cycle runs out, you have a better chance of getting black people going on a black podcast than you go to a black than you are to go to, say, E. Dewey Smith's church or Jamal Bryant's church or Mike Todd's church. It's just not the same cultural linchpin it used to be. And that shows its place in music, in public speaking, comedy and arts. Black people just aren't honing their skills in the church the way they used to because the church was Low key. If you could get them going in church, you can get them going on stage. That's why Jodeci's their dad. Devonte and Dalvin, I went to their dad's church in Charlotte. These are church boys. If you can get people going and make them feel the spirit, that same skill translates to getting an audience going. You gotta get. A. Church is cold at the beginning, right? You just come and sit down just like a comedy club. If Jodeci asks, kids, KC was a KC Haley and the Haley singers. He was like a part of a quartet group at first. You gotta warm that audience up with your charisma, your skill and singing ability. Same thing you gotta do in a club theater arena. The first note, you gotta get em going. So we ain't doing that as much. And I think we're not as wowed by the performances as much because people haven't honed that skill. And also with the whole, like, straight to festivals, you ain't built them, you ain't built the skill yet. Usually it was honing the church. And then you go out on the road and you hone it again in small clubs. Now you have a hit song, you go straight to Coachella or whatever. Big festival, you ain't gotta work your way up necessarily if you have the biggest song. Whereas like you watch a New Edition movie. It was like they was in that garage for two years practicing. Y' all don't even have a show. Y' all in here learning in a hot garage two years straight. By the time y' all have a show, you already ready. That care isn't there. And the money's not in the record industry, so they didn't spending the money developing artists as much as they used to either.

[C]

Do you miss that kind of church?

[A]

Oh my God.

[C]

Cause I didn't go to church five days a week. But it resonates with me some of the stuff that you're saying. And as much as I used to complain about it, I'm just wondering, do you miss. Cause I think what's interesting too about we're talking about the music side of it, but there's a togetherness that we all kind of understood having to be grow up in church like that, certain jokes that are made, certain traditions. The way we do it, it's like, oh, that all came from it. Do you? It was kind of. It was a monoculture. Do you miss that?

[A]

1,000%, I think it was such a big part of my life. I also complain it's not like as a kid, you don't want to do that.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

You just don't really have a choice. As a black poor kid or even a black kid growing up at the time we did, you don't really have a choice about much. What you mean, what you want for dinner? That's not a question you are asked. Rice a Roni, nigga. Rice a roni. Yes. Third day in a row. Spaghetti tomorrow. Spaghetti through Saturday. This is dinner. This is church. Get up, get dressed. I remember I used to spend the night at my friend's house. You can spend the night. We'll pick you up from church. They come, spend the night here. They're going to our church. Make sure they don't iron some clothes. I do miss it. And I also miss the same way I miss Blockbuster. Like, not only do I miss Blockbuster, I miss the way life felt when Blockbuster was a big part of life. I now have access to every movie it feels like. But there was something special about going to Blockbuster and hoping that Terminator 2 was still there when you got a chance to get there. Or waiting. Cause we couldn't watch movies when they came out. When we see them trailers, we'd be like, ooh, this is cool. In nine months, when that comes to Blockbuster, I can't wait. Or the dollar Movie. We didn't get to go see the movies in theaters. And because social media, it didn't really get spoiled like that. So I was used to waiting. Whereas now, you know, this movie's coming out and by the middle part of that movie on Thursday, it's gonna be available on Paramount streaming right now. So I think there was a certain. We don't have access to everything. So this, what we have feels like everything. And I feel like my friends was in church. I met Melissa in high school. I ended up going to her church just so I could see her more. That's how you used to have to date. Like, I'm gonna go to your church. That's where I. Church kids used to be like, you gonna be at a team night lock in. Yeah, you going to lock in. Had all kinds of people was getting figured at lock in.

[C]

Yeah. I was like, the lock in is a different thing.

[B]

They begged me to come to one. I went to that bitch. And then after that, I was like, I'm not missing one of these. They like, van, you really should come to the. I'm like, why would I go spend the night at Christian Life Academy? Like, what? Like, I'm not going to go spend the night. And my homeboy's like, van, you gonna wanna come to the Lock In?

[A]

All kind of shit happened.

[B]

Came to the Lock In. We did the whole joint. And the people, the youth pastors was like, all right, well, peace, guys. And I was like, they fed us the pizza and they was gone. It's like we played dodgeball. They was out. I was like, oh, it's us.

[A]

Yeah, there's all type of sin happening at the Lock in, so, yeah, I definitely miss it. And when I go to church, you know, I go to California Worship center, which is Mary. Mary's Erica Campbell and Warren Campbell's church.

[B]

Warren be boxing. Warren be coming to Philz.

[A]

Does he.

[B]

Warren good boxing.

[A]

Oh, snap.

[B]

Yeah, Warren be coming.

[A]

Shout out to the man. He is the best pastor for a person like me, because he gets it. He used to be a producer for Death Row, and his dad was like, hey, man, you're a musician. This is your job. You love God and serve Christ and come to church, but you make music for a living. If you gotta sell a beat to Suge Knight, my brother, you sell a beat to Suge Knight. If you on the road with Brandi and for a creative idea, Kanye, it

[B]

just continues to go, like, legitimately. One of the greatest, unsung musical musicians, 1000%.

[A]

And I say this all the time, and I often get flack for it. Your gift doesn't have to only be for the church. It can be for the church, but it doesn't have to only be for the church. I like comedy. I never want it to just be in churches doing comedy only, right? Because there's some stuff that's taboo. Like, I can't make that joke. I can't say nigga in church. I respect a pulpit, but now I still go back and do jokes there and still go to church. But I don't desecrate it in that way, right? At least to me. Some people still feel that way, but when I go to their church, they still have that. Erica Tina often sings, their younger sister Shantae. They have that old black version of church that makes me feel at home, but at the same time, their music is also relevant and modern, you know what I'm saying? So I do miss it, but, you know, I miss a lot of things that I had when I was a kid. You know what I'm saying? I miss riding bikes with my friends and stuff, but niggas don't ride bikes no more.

[B]

It's interesting, I think, that we. A lot of times when we talk about, like, blockbustering these things and going to the movies and going here and doing this. We're talking about how we connect to ritual, how people connect to ritual and what it means to do something as a human being. Like, it's like a reward structure. It's a way that it used to. The dopamine used to come in a different way. And now I feel like we're scraping the upper limit of the Internet. A couple of days ago, I tried to go watch the Mac. Can't find the Mac.

[A]

Yeah, not gonna work.

[B]

All of the stuff that I'm getting from the Internet, I gotta be able to watch the Mac whenever I wanna watch it. Because with everything else that's happening on the Internet, I can't go to the Internet and not be able to find the Mac because there's no more Blockbuster. The movie theaters is fucked up. All of this stuff. I need the Mac now. Okay? And so I think we're starting to wonder if. If everything that we gave up is actually. If the Internet is actually worth it. Because the Internet is starting to reach a level to where all of this stuff is scraping against the ceiling. And now AI has to create a new sort of God for the Internet and all of that. I just thought that was interesting. I want to ask you about something else specifically about the church.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You just made this really cogent and interesting analysis about everything that we got from the church. And sometimes when I'm in criticism of the church, which I am, quite often, I don't think about those things. I don't think about the cultural things that we harvested from the church. A lot of people think about the things that the church harvests from us. Money, influence, power, all of that stuff. And I think now the Drewski skit. Other things, because we're not in the church like we used to be, and because almost everything is up for analysis and over analysis, we're asking questions about whether or not the church is worth it, whether or not we are actually getting a return on our investment for what we've put into the black church and whether or not the structures of the church are serving the black community, communities writ large, the way that they should. One, what do you think about the conversation? And two, what case do you make for the importance of the black church today?

[A]

Whoo. Great question. I'm going to make a parallel between the black church and black parents raising kids in poverty. And specifically so it can be relevant to my life. I grew up with not a lot discipline, getting whoops, whoops, getting whooped. Can't ask questions, whereas I don't raise My kids that way. Right? That same way. I both can appreciate and understand what my parents did try to do with their knowledge and also recognize they got it wrong in XYZ way. Right? But I also understand that they didn't necessarily mean harm and they didn't know no better. David. So put me onto this idea that poor parents, not just black parents, poor parents often ruled with fear because they didn't have time to discipline any other way. I can't explain to you why you can't do X, Y and Z. Don't touch it. Because I got to go to work. I can't be with you. You're going to have to walk home from school, get that key in that house, don't answer the door. Don't do this, don't do that, don't do that. Shut up. Don't question me because I said so. Because I got to go to work. Not because I don't love you, not because I don't. I don't have, literally don't have the time to discipline you any different way. And I think the church has done a lot of harm in some ways, irreputable harm, irrefutable harm, whichever word was correct there. And I think it's the same way our parents did a lot of harm. It doesn't mean they were all harmed, though. And it doesn't mean they. At the same time, just because you didn't mean to do something, it doesn't, you know, remove you from the harm you caused. Right. I get in trouble all the time for talking about the black church was homophobic. Right? Black Christians hate when I say that. But it is true. I was taught to be homophobic sitting in church five times a week. That was what was taught to me. I'm so sorry. It was taught to me. I had to unlearn that because it's important to me that I am welcoming and inclusive of all black people. That includes queer black people. It includes trans black people. If you black people, you black with us, it is my goal that you can come sit with us. I was not taught that. And it was reinforced from my family. I was taught, nobody's born gay. Even if you are, you're born into sin. You can get born again. Okay? If you are gay, you were molested. That's not the only way people can be gay. I had to learn that later in life. I was not taught that. And I realized as an adult, and it wasn't even the church that changed me. It wasn't my parents. It was the birth of my son was the first time I had a thought. That was like. When I held my son, who is 19. It was the first time I had a contrary thought to something that had been taught to me. I was holding my son and I was like, yeah, I don't really care if this boy is gay or straight. This is my son. I'm not gonna. Because at that time, I started hearing people like, my parents didn't. They kicked me out for being gay. Start to hear these things right on tv, movie, Internet. I'm like, dang, that's crazy. And when I was holding him, I was like, I'm so sorry. That won't be my thing. But I ain't say nothing at that time. Cause I was like, I don't want to go against my pastor. I don't want to upset my family members and stuff. But it's like, so funny to me. In my actual family, there are gay people in my family. Just be like, we don't really talk about that. Auntie, what you mean? Yeah, she's been gay since the 70s. Yeah. What do you mean? This is our family member. Like, in my family, trans family members. We just like, yeah, I don't see this.

[B]

The grotesque truths.

[A]

Yes. We just looking at. And we just like, there's no book there. I just put it down. What you mean? So for me, I was just like, I'm sorry, I'm not going. And it's okay if you disagree with me. You can't whoop me. And the other thing I remember I was getting taken to task by the gay community in the pandemic. And I was listening. Cause I was getting. I mean, I was getting obliterated. On Twitter.

[C]

They said something.

[A]

I was doing this thing called Theological Thursdays during the pandemic. We was all creating. And I was very curious person. I was talking. I used to do a show called Aska. And I had done ask a black guy, ask a trans person, all kind of stuff. Cause I'm curious and I love to have a conversation, love to understand. And I had Jackie Hill Perry on my podcast trying to understand. She was like, I was a former lesbian, gave my life to God. Which was the way you could be gay in the church. You could have been gay, and God could have taken the gay away. That's. We get you on that, but you can't be gay, right? Been yes. Be no right. You cannot be. That's how we was taught. I'm like, but some people be gay. And I'm gonna say one thing too. And I Know, I'm all over the place, but it's gonna make sense. Nah, we with you went to a church, and I hate it because it's so stereotypical, but it is true. Our choir director was gay. This nigga was amazing songwriter, amazing arranger, amazing choir director. He wasn't like, flamboyantly gay in the sense of, like, how movies make people, but he was very obviously gay. Our church was like, don't talk about that, but do be part of the choir.

[B]

Do the music. Yeah.

[A]

For me, it was incongruent to me that we can use your gifts but deny your humanity. Like, you know, he gay, but he writing them songs. And them songs are moving people. Right? I mean, we in here crying to his song, his arrangement. God is using him. You can't make me believe I didn't feel what I feel. Tony has a song called Make Me over. We I'm talking about God himself spoke through tone to me about my sins when I listened to it. When I found out Tonay was gay, he did an interview about it. This song is very clearly about. Could be interpreted, you know, my other side. I can no longer hide. Hold on. You was telling us right then. So I don't discount everything the church is, but I also cannot not acknowledge the harm that was done. And I think you hold space for both of those. I did this.

[B]

That's when you know that you've evolved.

[A]

Yeah, I said hold space and I did this.

[B]

Yeah, those are two.

[A]

And I think in most things, things are not inherently good or evil. The black church was great at so many things, but it got things wrong. Same way black parents were good at so many things. Culture, respect. But they also got a lot of things wrong. What we taught was discipline was quite often abuse. Some people still believe that is the only way to discipline children. I don't feel that way. Same thing happened with my son about being gay. I remember I used to whip my kids when they were young. I remember one time my youngest son hit my oldest son. So I popped my youngest son and said, don't hit your brother. And in that moment, my brain was

[B]

like, wow, what the hell? Yeah.

[A]

Now make that make sense. How you hit him to tell him not to hit him. That didn't it just. And that's literally the last time I hit my kids. That was 24. It just didn't make sense to me. And I also was. Thank God I had the time to discipline them. But that requires me to listen to my kids admit that I was wrong. My parents didn't admit they were wrong to us. What are you talking about, nigga?

[B]

I was just talking about.

[A]

What are you talking about?

[B]

I heard a friend of mine apologize to their kids. And I was like, yo, in 41 years of knowing this man, he never said he was sorry. He would do things to let you know that he was sorry.

[A]

You wanna get something to eat?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I got these Jordans for you.

[B]

Hey, son. I was a little fat, like, hey, son, I got some big K, big.

[A]

But actually, man, I am sorry for what I did.

[B]

Daddy sorry. Daddy was wrong. This. This. Blah, blah. No, no.

[A]

I told my son, my child, you hurt my feelings.

[C]

What did he. How did he respond to that?

[A]

He apologized.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

He didn't see that I. He didn't see how his actions did, cuz. I realized I'm like, I'm taking this disrespect. But as a married person, when I went through. I always say that. And we can go longer. I'm having a great time. If y' all ain't in a rush. I'm not in a rush. I often say that I learned. I went to therapy to become a better husband. I became a better person.

[C]

Same.

[A]

I realized what I'm taking as disrespect for my kids is you actually hurt my feelings. But it's wild for me to say my kid hurt my feelings because my parents would never acknowledge. If you. If you don't. If you don't answer me when I call you, it's all. Everything's disrespect. Huh? Sucking your teeth, this being wrong. Sometimes when I don't remember what he did, but I realized as I processed it, I was like, he didn't actually make me feel disrespected. He actually hurt my feelings when he did that. But I'm trying to teach him to be an emotionally intelligent person to everybody around him. So if I can't model to him, hey, you hurt my feelings when you did that. How can I expect him to do that? It hasn't been modeled for him. So I had to, like, swallow some ego and some pride. Cause you are my child. What you talking about? You can't hurt my feelings. Real nigga. I'm your father. Cause I'm me on hood, right? That's where I'm from. The streets.

[B]

Yeah. So.

[A]

Yeah, right. So I told him that, and he was like, oh, my God, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that, like, explaining things to my kids was, like, a thing my parents. So this is a new thing for me. I didn't have this model for me. But I want my kids to be able to do this. And also, back to the black church and gay things. My kids are growing up in an inclusive world and they're not growing up in as much black church as I grew up with. One of the things that my son, when he first wanted to vote, he wanted to protect gay rights. Cause his homegirl from life is gay. So he's like, I could vote. I need to protect her. This is my friend from third grade. He doesn't have the same thing that I had. Right. So it's an interesting thing when you're raising kids differently than you were raised because you're trying to be better. And I understand and I forgive my parents because they did the best they could with what they had and what they knew. And I think in some ways the black church did as well. Because at the end of the day, the people were in the black church was black parents.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's the same people that was raising me. They just went up to preach or to sing and sat back down. The stuff was enforced more by your family outside. The pastor said it, but the people enforced it. So you feel like you're going against. It felt like going against the black church was going against my family.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

You know what I mean? It wasn't just the church. It's like it's my grandma specifically.

[C]

It's a great comparison and I really understand it. Cause I feel like sometimes I say we grew up in a similar way. If Jesus had a podcast in 2026, what topic do you think would get him canceled?

[A]

I'm going to answer this in a different way. I think we don't really think about who Jesus was when he lived on Earth. We think more about Paul Jesus. If he was on a podcast, he spent all his time with the degenerates, the sinners, the publicans, the tax collectors, basically the outcasts of society. That's who he spent his time with. So if he spent his time with those people in the Bible, to me, you fast forward. He would spend his time with marginalized people today who are marginalized people today. Black people, gay people, trans people. That's who I think based on the data of who he spent his time with. So I think he would get in trouble for spending time with people that we shouldn't be spending time with. Because they are not right. They are not like us. I feel like when I was growing up, I was. Most of my Christianity wasn't Christianity at all. It was really. I want to Be more saved than you. I'm not really out here trying to lead people to God. I just need to feel better about my walk than their walk. I'm not actually spending time with people to actually get them to come to church. I think one of the best examples of the black church done right is my brother's story. He was out here having kids, crazy, having sex, doing all kinds of lasciviousness and debauchery. He started coming to church, and at first he was just at church. Church ended at 1. He get there at 1258, and then 1258 became 1245. He's loved this whole time. That's the point of the story. 1245 became 1230. 1230 became 12 became 1130 became 11 became. After many years, even though everybody was aware of how he was living, he was fornicating, he was shacking up. We just loved him through all that stuff. He got married and he was the superintendent of the Sunday school, and the church loved him from 1248, 58 to 11 till before 11, setting up for Sunday school. So I think that's a good example of Jesus love. I'm going to love you. Even though I disagree with how you're living your life, you're still welcome. You can come to my house. You are welcome to partake. We're going to the picnics. Your whole self is love, not. You can get this when you get your act together, when you stop doing sin, you stop doing whatever is whatever. You know, one of the great analogies I love is like, a church is a hospital for the sick. That means they are coming in sick. I think sometimes the church, we often want people to come in well and leave. Weller, that's not the point of a hospital. Hospital is supposed to help you get well. The church is supposed to help you get your life together, to, you know, be better with God, so to speak. So I don't know that Jesus would ever even have a podcast, but if he did, he probably will be getting canceled for spending time with people who are not the right kind of Christians. That's what I think.

[B]

You know, Mike, you know, I've always had this observation of Jesus, and it's always been argued they never liked when I was around. You know, I think Jesus hung out with those people. They were the only people that would have him. Jesus believed that he was the son of God and that he was sent here to purify the world of its sin, that he was here to fix things. You can't have that conversation with Power. You can't have that conversation with people who have the world made the way they want it to be made. Those people aren't going to listen to you when you tell them that there is something new, when you tell them that there is something that they're not doing. Those are not going to be the people that are going to listen to you and say, hey, let's remake the world anew. Let's change everything. Jesus hung with the people who would listen to his message. And the people who are going to listen to the message of we need to do this differently are the community of people who need to hear what is new, who need to hear the thing that is going to save them. And so that I remember saying that back. Yeah, everybody listen to Jesus. Jesus do turn water into wine. I'm like, no, Jesus was talking to the people and surrounding himself with the people that would have him because they're going, this can't possibly be life. This is not me. This is not like what I am. And even the way we like orient around power now, we try to do this top down thing, we try to make it so. We look at people who we don't think are worthy or people who we don't think are special or good enough for this stuff, we make all these judgments about them. And then the people who have attained all of this stuff and who are the elites, we think that they are the good ones, the people that are undergirding the same power structures that are keeping you where you are. And so the. And when I hear people go, jesus was with the this and then this and the this, I look at them and I go, that's you, nigga. I know that you think that, like, no, he was with you. That is you. And so when you talk about system breaking or planning and plotting and all of that to remove change, rearrange and do all of that stuff. If you think that you're going to do that with the people who own, maintain, reinforce, good luck, right? You're going to do that with the people that they tell you not to go build with 1000%.

[A]

I think Jesus is a lot of his big conflict was not with marginalized people. It was with super religious people, Pharisees, Sadducees. It was overtly religious people. I always use this example and it's not mine. This pastor really killed it with this one time he was talking about the woman, the adulterous woman that caught her in the act. And he said, Jesus came to do what was right, not what was I Mean, came to do what was good, not what was right. So the law, if you had adultery, was to stone you. So Jesus, they like Jesus, what you want to do? Because they wanted him to. They want to catch him in a catch 22. You say, he's supposed to be by the law. We caught her in the act. If you're the son of God, this is what we say.

[B]

She got to die.

[A]

She got to die. So the right thing to do would be to stone her. The good thing to do is to say, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Because now you need to check your heart first, because you know, you with the. Okay, so you've done nothing wrong. You be the first one to throw the stone, right? So I think that is, you know, he was very masterful with his words. That's why they was in red in the Bible, not in black. Cause y' all gonna know what I said. But I think that's what I want to be like, right? I feel like, to your point about people in power, you start agreeing with that power a little too much. Seems like you more interested in power than people. For sure, man. For sure, bruh.

[B]

See, listen to Kev. Don't listen. That's what I'm trying to say. Like, that's really the only thing I'm trying to say. But it seems to me that you're not actually concerned with the material experiences of people's lives and how they are living the one life that they get that what you might be concerned about is the rules that need to lord over those people that you think should be in place.

[A]

One thing I think about so often is the creation of whiteness, right? And the creation of whiteness happened more, from my understanding, after slavery. When you have sharecropping blacks and poor whites looking at each other, and the white people are realizing, all right, now, they used to be slaves. So I felt like I. At least I'm not a slave. My life might be the same, but they are subservient to me. I am free now. They're free. Hold on. Now. Our life is exactly the same. The people in power and capital realize, okay, if they get together, it's dangerous for us. So now if I can't make them subservient by slavery, I'm gonna make whiteness superior to blackness. So now I have something to lord over you again, and it's the color of my skin. Back to your point about me, I'm not even talking about the black church. I wanted to. This is just me not the black church. What I felt like when I felt that gay people were wrong and they were living in sin, I really felt I'm better than you. I'm still sinning, though. But your sin is worse. And this is something that I'm hearing right. The Bible says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Liars will have a special place in the lake of fire. But the pastor is saying gay people are somehow worse. Since I'm out here fornicating, I feel like I got to make the gay people lower than. This is just me. So I feel like I need to feel a little bit better. Man. At least I ain't gay. At least I ain't gospel.

[B]

Do you think that scripture condemns the gay lifestyle?

[A]

Brother, when I tell you sometimes I think the Internet was the worst thing that happened to me because I was taught that what I have now learned is so much about the Bible, language, cultural customs, cannot be applied on a one to one thing. With today, I no longer think that the way it was explained to me is exactly the way it was meant to be explained. So I choose. And I can't definitively say one way or another because I'm not a theologian. And sometimes I'm unsure exactly of what I'm interpreting or even who is saying. Right. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes it's just like I don't even know how I feel. But I do know that I will not make people who are gay feel less than. And what's so interesting is his name is Christian Smith. He's a black theologian, deconstructionalist. And he. And there's another white dude on TikTok, Dan something. He was saying we interrogate the Bible all the time. Right? There's things in the Bible that happened that we decide as a society. I know that's in the Bible, but we ain't gonna do that. When people were getting married, these were literal children. 12, 13. Passed off. You were gonna take my daughter as a bride. You're a grown man. You're gonna have my daughter who's 13. We have decided. All right, well, I know the Bible says that, but, like, come on, y' all can't do that. Can't do that. Yeah. Like, you know what I'm saying? Multiple wives all up and through the Bible. People after God's own heart. David, Solomon, wives, concubines. We have decided as a society. I know that's in the Bible, but we just, like, come on, y' all. Not really gonna do that. Okay, if we can interrogate those things. Why can we not interrogate sexuality?

[C]

Right.

[A]

If we already are interrogating it, we already have decided there's a certain age for a man and woman should be consent. You know, let me tell you what. What example blew my mind. A theologian said that David raped Bathsheba. That was a rape or sexual assault. And I'm like, what do you mean? And they were making the point that he was the king. She could not.

[B]

She couldn't say no.

[A]

Could not say no. If you can't give consent, what is that? Sexual assault? Rape? I'm like, hold on. That is not the story I was taught. I didn't even have that worldview as a kid. When I'm hearing. When you're teaching about David and Bathsheba, I'm six or seven. I didn't even know. But again, to my point, about cultural customs, who is David? If you're in a position of power and this is a woman, if you're brought to the king, you're doing what he says. So she can't consent. By our laws and customs, that's considered rape or sexual assault. That's not something I was taught. I think while I was saying the reason the Internet was somehow the worst thing for me when I was growing up. It was only what the pastor said. All I had access to was my pastors, my pastors in my life. Not all pastors, just my pastors in my life. None of them went to seminary. Charismatic people, great people, not fully educated in the Bible the way people who go to seminary are. When I started really understanding the Bible differently is when I started, when I was a youth pastor, and I started to say, like, I don't want to teach these kids something I don't believe. So I'm going to study. Remember I asked him what y' all want me to talk about? There was like, we want to learn about tattoos. And I was like, oh, perfect. I'm going to go to Leviticus and tell you why tattoos are sinful. Not to learn to tell you because I've been taught no man should cut himself up. And just like the dad, I'm gon get y'. All. I went on the Internet to get a little teen lesson. This white dude wrote, you probably came here. I mean, this is the first paragraph. You probably came here to tell your teens why tattoos were wrong. And I'm like, why? Yes. That's literally exactly what I came here to do. Thank you. He's like, okay, the scripture you're looking for is Leviticus. 19:21. Cause I couldn't find it. Maybe that's not it, but that's what I thought. And he's like, okay, here it is. And it says, no man should cut the dead. I'm like, perfect. And he's like, keep reading. And I was like, okay. He's like, read the scripture before that. It's like, men shouldn't cut their beards. I'm like, wait, what? Read the scripture before that. No, men shouldn't. Or we shouldn't wear cotton of two different types. So he's like, check your shirt. Like, this is the article. He's like, check your shirt. Make sure it's 100% of whatever. I literally checked my shirt, and it was like, poly blend. And I was like, oh, snap. And then it was basically, Leviticus is a chapter. Four Levites, two Levites. That chapter. One thing my pastor in Washington taught me, that was so good because I used to preach. He was like, you shouldn't preach a message until you dissect it in these three ways. Who is writing it, who are they writing to? And what are the cultural norms and histories of that time? You need to understand all three of those things before you say anything, because you can't apply something without understanding how the way the world was at that time. So I kept reading the article, and he basically was like, what you think this says? It doesn't really say. This is basically saying a Levitical priest shouldn't get tattoos. Not the layperson. So I had to go to my teens and be like, listen. Parents were mad. They were like, what are you teaching my son? And I'm like. And I shared the article. I'm like, this is my understanding what happened. And this is what I think happens a lot of time in the black church, right? So it's okay. I talked about this stuff on Joe Budden, and Christians got pissed. And I'm like, here, go again. But I can't lie to y'. All. People don't often want to be challenged. Because if you interrogate this, if this isn't true, then the whole thing falls apart. And if my whole identity is Christianity in this specific way, if I. If that, it's like taking a Jenga piece out. If you mean to tell me gay people ain't going to hell, who going to hell then?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then there's people. Like, hell might not even be real.

[B]

So. Well, somebody's gotta go to hell.

[A]

Somebody got to go.

[B]

That's how they. Somebody's got to go to hell. Because I have to be Cause I'm going to heaven.

[C]

It goes back to yours is worse than me. I'm better than you. No, I think that that's like the biggest thing of it is, at least for me. The older you get, you realize not just like what your pastor taught you before about the three things when you're reading something, it's also. Okay, there's different versions. Well, what was going on in the world when this version of the Bible came out? Then there's also, well, which. There were multiple books that were written beyond the 66. So which books were written in? And why were these included? And why these? Why aren't these? And so then you start questioning everything. And then. And then really just even just look at today in 2026. I mean, I went to a small Baptist private school my whole life. So I was getting it from school and I was getting it from church and I was getting things from home. So I understand what you mean about the whole. It becomes your identity. It's your whole thing. And you don't wanna challenge it because then it's like, not even just is it a lie, but it's like, has everybody been lying to me? And then you can't. Like, it's a really, really hard thing to. I don't. To come to terms with.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And then.

[A]

And people don't want hard things.

[C]

People don't want our things.

[A]

Reinforcing something that you've been taught is actually easy.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Breaking something down and learning for yourself is very hard. I actually don't like why Van don't want to listen to the gospel. I don't want to cry, but can

[C]

I just say, the way we're describing it, doesn't that sound like cult mentality?

[A]

Now you get into dangerous territory. Now I'm just saying, you're talking, you're talking. You're still my God now. But no, I think anything you can't. In the Bible, to your point, they ask God questions. They were mad at God. Jesus, when he was about to get crucified, he said, hey man, listen, I feel you. But if it be your will to let this cup pass from me, would you mind? He even questioned the thing. And he being Jesus being all knowing Job, Dave, there's all kinds of people questioning God. I'm not even asking you to question God. I'm asking you to question your pastor. Not even God, but the way I was taught. Your pastor and God, he talking directly to your pastor. And if I couldn't question my parents, I for sure can't question my Pastor. But then what happens is we grow up and we learn, and our generation is like, we questioning stuff. We questioning all kind of stuff. And I think what you said when it borderlines on code is if I can't ask questions or I'm shunned for asking questions, we could keep going on

[C]

and on about this. Because I would ask you. I would even go into the black church versus black pastor and, like, elders and things like that and how. I'm not even gonna get into that. I'll ask you one last question.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

You give so much. You talk about so much. You know, like, we know your kids. We know your family. At least what you share.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, you're involved in so many different things is where you are right now and what you've accomplished and what you plan on continuing to accomplish. What is something that you're protecting at this stage in your life?

[A]

The funny thing is, I protect a lot of stuff. I give people so much of stuff that they think it's everything. But I've been sharing less and less and less and less.

[B]

Good for you.

[A]

The more visible I become, the less I'm actually sharing about my actual life. I just talked about this on my new Grief Sucks tour. I'm gonna say it publicly here. I probably will never tell the Internet when anybody else in my family dies. Never. I realized through the grieving process of my brother, who is also a slightly visible person. I don't want to grieve with strangers. Grief is very personal to me. I appreciate y', all, but when my mom passes, because I don't want to garner what it is to be a highly visible person, how people. I don't want that. So my marriage, somebody said this on Twitter. Real happy couples gatekeep a lot of stuff because y' all would tear them apart if you did. All kind of things in my marriage. Gate kept. I be going on full trips, no content, no nothing. Stuff with my kids. I ask my kids, you mind if I make this a video? If they say, no, I don't make it a video. Like, my son had a beard. I was like, let's make this video. He's like, nah, I ain't really feeling it. Bet. Stuff with my kids that happens in their life, actual life. I feel like for visible people, you need good friends, good group chat, good family. Don't let the Internet become your friends, your group chat, your family, because you are content to them. A lot of times, people treat highly visible famous people like they're not human, because to them, they're Just a character. There's no difference between me, you, van. Thank you. Nene Leakes. Phaedra.

[B]

The Patriots.

[A]

The Patriots.

[B]

You win enough, they're gonna be like, we sick of these people winning. It's time for a new league.

[A]

It's happening with Drewski right now.

[B]

And when I say that, I know that sounds like, oh, my God. What I'm telling you is it makes no sense to even be upset about it. It's human nature.

[A]

I love the Chiefs when they was beating the Patriots, right? And then they Chiefs done wanna lie.

[B]

Nala, it's somebody else turn now. You know what I mean? And so, like, that's not even a critique or something. That's meant to be like, oh, look, I'm just saying it's natural. So be, like, cognizant of how you move around 1000%.

[A]

I used to. When I got a Maserati, I made a big deal about it. This is. I'm sharing my life. This is the life moment when I turn that car back in.

[B]

Just let me get a Maserati, though.

[A]

That Maserati is their Maserati now.

[C]

He turned it back in.

[A]

I turned it back in. You gave it back. What?

[B]

You gave back the ark.

[A]

Gave it back. That oil. Let me tell you how I shouldn't have even had a Maserati. Let me tell you how I shouldn't have had a Maserati. I took my Maserati to Jiffy Lube.

[C]

No, you did. You can't even put the same gas in a Maserati.

[A]

Cedar Boulevard burnt out. I took my Maserati to Jiffy Lube. That dude was like, what are you doing? I was like, I want an oil change. He was like, well, you can't do an oil change of Maserati. I was like, I just came here when I had my Toyota. He said, man, you gotta take that to the dealership. I was like, why? He's like, we can't do. Sir, you're burnt out. Go take it to the Maserati dealership. When them people looked me dead in my face and said, $900. Matter of fact, 1,000 to do the maintenance.

[C]

I said, yeah.

[A]

Oh, this isn't me. This isn't me. Lost the Maserati key. I lost car keys all through my life. I go get the other car key, Go to the grocery store, go to Home Depot. $2 key, Maserati, $1,500.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

What are you telling me?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

$2,500 for an oil change in a key? Y' all got it Take this car back. I have a Toyota Tacoma. Okay. That's not me. Sure. I wouldn't even share if I went back to Maserati. Whatever I could get. Never share it. Never. I honestly think sometimes I feel like I'm, like, closing ranks more. I just give my opinion on a lot of things. Sure. Saw this on the Internet. Saw this. Saw this podcast clip. So you feel like I'm sharing. I'm sharing old stories, stories that have been public for years. Actual life things. Y' all not finna open. I'm not finna open myself up so I can be destroyed and ridiculed.

[C]

I agree.

[A]

No, my thoughts on a lot of things stay with the people who I know I can trust those thoughts with.

[B]

Yeah, the people who allow you to be an asshole.

[A]

That's the thing, fan. I'm not as nice as people think I am.

[B]

The people who. The people. The people who allow you to be an asshole. The people who, like, are cool when you having a bad day. I've been on this podcast having a bad day. I get it. My bad days are not for them.

[A]

1,000.

[B]

And I'm not even. I understand. My bad days aren't for them.

[A]

It's just not wise. It's not wise because you. I. I thought I was special. I thought I was special for a while. I thought I'm nice. Everybody love Kev. I'm not. I'm not special. They go after Tab. Keith Lee. They go and come out Keith Lee. Nope. Keith ain't done.

[B]

I don't care how you go after Keith Lee. Eat food and make y' all happy.

[A]

And the man tries so hard. His palate. He got the palate. You know what? We don't like stuff. We don't like nothing.

[B]

Go to the restaurant, sit down at the restaurant. Just do the whole thing. Lead the people. A $17,000 tip to make a female.

[C]

It's not enough.

[A]

It's not enough.

[B]

Yeah, you. You had issues with him.

[C]

I don't even remember specifically what it was. I don't have a problem with. No, I don't have a problem with Keith Lee in general. It was whatever we were talking about.

[A]

Stop, stop. My point is, like, to your point, I remember when stuff went bad for me, like, I made a misstep, made a mistake. Brother passed away. And I remember my life started becoming content for people's podcasts and stuff. And I'm like, yo, y' all talking about me like I'm T.I. and 50 Cent. Like, I'm not famous like that, but. And I realized Sometimes on People's YouTube channel, the video about me was one of their better videos. Yeah.

[B]

So they gotta come back.

[A]

So you gotta come. I gotta. That's only smart content making. I'm gonna go back to what? I'm throwing stuff against the wall. Oh, Kev on stage. Video expose, whatever it is. Hate Kev onstage every once in a while. Kev onstage, funny to y'. All. Oh, my God.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Okay, okay. They gonna whack me on every side with that. Okay, I don't want. And now the algorithm's like. You used to have to search your name on Twitter to get obliterated. Now the algorithm's like, nigga, they talking about you. Let me show you. You getting cooked over here on TikTok. Twitter threads have been so many times. People are like, dang, I'm sorry, friend, what's happening to you? Wait, what's happening? Oh, you getting cooked on TikTok right now. What I do, it's a part of the system. I remember one time I was getting Mel Mitchell hit me up. Mel was like, I'm so sorry, friend, they cooking you. I said, what I do now, right? I was with my wife having lunch. And what has helped me in real life is every time I've been getting cooked on the Internet and I'm out in the streets, have a show or just out, there's a black person showing me love. Yeah, what up, Kev? My grandma loves you. Let me get a picture. I'm so grateful that every time I've been cooked, I always have something to do. And somebody's always. And I always get shown love. But it always happens that the moment I'm getting cooked online, somebody in real life is like, yo, I love your work. So I just have to accept that sometimes people just jump on the thing because everybody's talking about it.

[B]

And last thing I'll say about it, and you've been so gracious with your time is like, this gonna sound fucked up. They're entitled to it.

[C]

I agree.

[B]

They're entitled. Look, this is the way I feel.

[A]

Wait, what you mean, man?

[B]

Let me tell you what I mean. This is what I mean. This is what I mean. The way I obviously, I like to go back and forth.

[C]

Okay, you love it.

[B]

Van Lathan, obviously, I like.

[C]

He talks about his sister himself.

[B]

Obviously, I like to go back and forth. So it is different for me than a lot of people, right? If you come at me and it's completely in bad faith, whatever, there's nothing there. I block you. But the people out there that are consuming this stuff, that are being entertained, they're entitled to it. They're entitled to their opinion. Whether that opinion is right or wrong, whether that opinion reinforces us or not, they're entitled to it. Do I wish that we lived in the type of society where people had the wherewithal or the time to, like, really go into something with complete good faith all the time? I do. But guess what? I don't do that. And so. And so like it. What I know is every once in a while, the shit that happens. I'm never gonna forget y' all for posting my mom on the Reddit. Never gonna forgive that. For posting my mother on the Reddit ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. Scum. But I worked at TMZ for a long time, and working at TMZ for a long time told me that people see all of this stuff, they're there, they want to get shit off their chest. And if you gonna be in this space, some of it, some of it is going to be incumbent on you to detach a little bit. So you give them a little bit less of you. Like, what you said about grief is powerful because, like, the reason why I talk about my dad so much is because I really don't know what to do, right? I'm fucking sad all the time.

[A]

I don't know what to do. You should come to my grief suck show. I should come on there.

[B]

I really don't know what to do.

[A]

I'm going to do some more in la. They sold out real quick, but it won't tell you what to do. But the overwhelming thing that people have said from seeing that show is they feel seen. And I feel like sometimes just being like, I ain't the only person thinking like, this is just a relief. And I feel like that, too. Like, it's tough when you really love somebody, like, really did, and you can't give them that love the way you were able to for many years. That love's still there.

[B]

And if you have more to say.

[A]

Yeah, even worse.

[B]

Yeah, like, you have more. We weren't done, man. You were supposed to see me. You were supposed to be proud, finally. And all of that stuff like that, like, and then it's just done. And I just gotta be like, all right, okay, it's cool. The rest everybody go, but. So sometimes I do that, but then you do that. And then every once in a while, somebody goes, I hate you. Like, maggots are eating your father. And you go, wait a minute, I can't talk about this. And even that response like that was like.

[A]

When you get.

[B]

When I get a response like this, back to full circle. I get a response like that. I laugh because I go, yo, how could you say this to someone?

[A]

And it could be a bot, right? I know.

[B]

Literally, that is so funny to me. I'll show this. I'll be like, yo, look how this is wild.

[A]

This is crazy.

[B]

Like, how could you say this to somebody? Yeah, but, man, this has been fantastic, bro.

[A]

We gotta come back.

[B]

We definitely gotta come back.

[A]

That might have been the fastest two hours. I almost shudder. I said I wasn't gonna talk about the black church again. Cause I don't want to draw the ire. But also, man, it's like I wanted to say this. You just reminded me just by your welcoming. Look, one thing that messed me up. And I said two more things. I'm sorry. We're just gonna keep going a little bit. Little bit. Little bit. I said, I protect black women. I didn't always. There was time. I put black people, black women at the expense of a joke out in the forefront. My own wife. So if I could do it to her, I could do it to you. I got called out about that, and I was like, dang, y'. All right. That's community, right? That's one thing. Back to the church. And I want to say this, too, because it was a point that I was making. Now, I don't know why, but I'm making it. I was taught drinking is bad. Drinking is sin. I was like, okay, I'm with y'. All. As a kid, I found Seagram's Extra Dry Gin behind my grandma's tv. I said, now, hold on. Y' all told me drinking was a sin. This is my grandma's tv. I know who put the gin behind there. Okay? Me and my brother drank some hot gin one time, right? Cause it's behind the tv. Big booty tv, too. Hot gin. Hot gin.

[B]

Oh, the mother.

[C]

Oh, yeah, we all had some big booty BBL.

[A]

TV.

[B]

You cooked something behind that.

[A]

That gin was 98 degrees. Okay? Later on in life, my aunt, church person as well, who enforced, we ain't drinking. That's a sin. She got a Zima in there. And I seen Zima commercials. A Zima.

[C]

I hadn't heard that in a lot.

[A]

Yeah, she got a Zima in there. I said, auntie, I think I might have been 19. I said, we can drink these. She said, you can't, because you ain't 21. No, this is not what I'm talking about. We said we strings in the sand. Well, we kind of like. There's stuff that we say and there's stuff that we do. The reason I don't feel bad saying this stuff, the Christian I will not be that I that messed me up is the Christian to Christians. But I'm actually not that person. What I refuse to do is wear a Christian mask. Because I could say all the right things, right? And unfortunately, there's people that I know that cannot. Because being a Christian is also tied to their income. So what they actually believe and what they say are incongruent. But if they say what they actually believe, same way politicians are. Politicians say what they need their base to hear to keep them in power. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's why rich people be like, ain't no abortions. My kid needs an abortion. There's an abortion for us, right? I can't be that person that is like, I'm gonna present to you what I think you want. Cause they gonna hate you either way. So if you hate me or like me, you will love the current version of me. And that person has changed. If you're a Kev On Stage fan, I've lost fans. When I started talking like this about gay people, a lot of my Christian audience was like, all right, I'm done with Kev. Cause when I was young, when I first started making content, I was fully still indoctrinated. I didn't talk crazy. Cause I was like, I like the people. But, like, you know, I would tweet stuff like, I don't want my son to be gay. Cause that's what I was taught. And then I had a son, and I was like, I actually don't feel this, but I feel like my audience wants me to say this. But then I felt like I can't say something I don't believe for an audience. Cause that to me is selling out. Of course, to me, selling out is taking money and presenting yourself in a way you actually don't believe. But you know it'll get you paid. So if I lose fans or gain fans, I actually rather it be so congruent with who I am now versus I know I could probably hit a lick doing X, Y and Z, but I can't do that. Because, like I said, all black people are important to me. And I'm so sorry if you don't feel that way. That won't be. That's a place that we gotta part ways.

[C]

Yeah, you don't want that fan anyway.

[A]

I don't want that Fan. Anyway, I just can't do it. Cause, like, queer black people got it bad enough. I don't wanna add to their heartache. You know what I'm saying? Black people got it bad enough. You know what I'm saying? So I just wanted to say that because I know this is just me saying it to myself. Cause I know I'm opening myself up to criticism, but it ain't no criticism that I didn't already hear when I said this stuff on Joe Budden's podcast. And I agree with you, man. We. I do the same thing. I watch this movie. I like this person. I don't like this person. I argue in bad faith all the time. I just don't really post it no more. Right. Cause, like, I'm realizing now, because of who I am, I can't say what I used to say when nobody knew who Kev onstage was. Cause now I'm running into these people. So now I'm just like, you know, like, if van. Or y'. All. If you got cooked. And I just sat on this podcast. And after this, you say something crazy, I'm probably not going to binge you.

[C]

But you did make a video about me about Anita Baker, because I need

[A]

to throw you under the bus. That's why I said I don't always protect black women.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

Cause you were worse than me, and I need to get the heat going your way.

[C]

Rachel, how was I worse than you Once you knew her, you loved her.

[A]

Yeah. You stayed with it. And I said, oh, let me direct

[C]

the black people to all the criticism.

[A]

I still standing, still strong feel what I feel.

[B]

I mean, that's what I'm saying. People gotta have their. Like that. That. That. Those types of. That's why we gotta make sure that we don't feel that we above. Because when we say shit like that, people supposed to be able to get you. Right. Because that's disgusting.

[C]

Listen, I open myself up to it. I've been dealing with this.

[B]

You should have seen Deontay's reaction. It's really a crazy.

[C]

Brought him back with Drew Hill.

[B]

That's the.

[A]

Back with Drew Hill.

[B]

That's the take.

[A]

What was the hire brought back?

[B]

They say Drew Hill is better than Boyce to him.

[C]

I've said it on the podcast, but he agreed with me. I got a lot of flack for that.

[A]

Why don't.

[B]

This isn't. You know what? We just gotta keep podding. You know what? No other topics today after Kev gonna pod over.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Look, we just gotta keep podding.

[A]

What do you mean, better?

[B]

They're not better, bruh.

[A]

What are you defining as better? Cause I love Drew Hill. Drew Hill is great, and I fight for them.

[B]

Even so, Drew Hill is great. I think that Boyz II Men, if we're being honest, I think that Boyz II Men's music aged in a way that makes people, like, feel like Boyz II Men wasn't as fucking dangerous or cool.

[C]

I don't think Drew Hill is dangerous music. When I listen to it, I just

[B]

felt they had one nigga that had blonde Cisco. Yeah. And he could do backflips. Like, that's pretty dangerous.

[C]

Okay. That's how we're defining Sunglasses on. They was out there was just. I mean, like, Boyz II Men sounds. It's, like, lighter to me. It's prettier. Okay, so let me back it up. Let me back it up. The type of music that I like. I wanna feel the lyric you're singing.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Okay. Like a Teddy P. Yeah. Like David Ruffin. I referenced him earlier.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

I like that. It just makes I connect to it better. I think Boyz II Men is pretty. I love their music. I love the songs Blue Hill hits to me in a completely different way.

[A]

Okay, so you're saying you're making the Mary J. Blige argument versus who. Versus who could have a light voice. Ooh, I'm trying to think of who the. I'm thinking of this as I'm happening. I'm just saying people's argument of Mary J. Is you feel her. Somebody could have a daintier, prettier voice, but you don't. Adele. Let's say Adele. Right. It's not the same genre, but, like, they don't sing in the same. Actually, that's not a good argument. Cause Adele makes you feel.

[B]

This is what I say. Like, if you like Drew Hill better than Boyz II Men, that makes a lot of sense.

[C]

We've got to say what is better. Because I keep saying better.

[D]

Right.

[C]

What are we basing what is. That's what I'm asking it better.

[B]

Because Drew Hill cannot give boys to men in any way, shape or form based on what? Once again, Mary J. Like, for example, Mary J. Blige. I'm going to say something that I don't know. Like, there are people who would. Mary J. Blige's contemporaries that just. If you just talked about voice, they sang better than Mary J. Blige did. No one made better music.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Whatever it is about Mary that gets her into a song. Whatever the sensibility is about Mary that gets her into a song that lets you connect to her. The music and the number of hits was also better than the people who, quote, unquote, have more technically trained voices than her. Drew Hill. If you like Drew Hill better, that's cool. But in no way, shape or form measurably. Cause Drew Hill is better than Boyd's 10.

[A]

Yeah. Stealing you is a measure, isn't it?

[C]

That's one measure.

[A]

That's one.

[B]

That's a personal truth.

[C]

So I can't believe we didn't do this. So when we were at the house and Deontay and Kat were there, we did a verses of Ti and 50. Right. In light of what was going on. Cause we're never gonna see one in real life, the two of them. So we should have done a Drew Hill versus Boyz II Men. Cause we just ended it. When you said, there's one song that nothing compares and it's mama. That's what Vance said. He's like, there's nothing.

[B]

They said that Drew Hill don't even have enough records to be in a.

[C]

That is not true.

[A]

Are you talking about. You talking about quantifiable, like Billboard hits? Drew Hill is the feel you beauty. That's beauty. Niggas love beauty.

[B]

I know they love beauty.

[A]

They love. But you wouldn't qualify to hit the same way.

[C]

Cause it doesn't have the crossover appeal.

[A]

Right? So that's why voice.

[C]

If we're doing Billboard, you're right. It's going to be voiced to me.

[A]

But black people, we don't. Billboard don't always mean stuff to us.

[C]

He's looking it up.

[A]

He's looking at it.

[B]

No, but what I'm saying, you're going graphs on us. I'm talking about feeling, hey, we want to have Cisco on the Midnight Boys. I think you guys are underestimating the Boyz II Men records that are out there. I think that people. I don't think that people are thinking back about so Unbended Knee. That song don't do nothing for you guys.

[C]

I love it.

[A]

I defend.

[C]

I love it.

[A]

I love Boyz II Men. I was just curious what her argument was. I love boys. Boyz II Men for. This is the Twitterfication of Boyz II Men. Something happened a few years ago. They're like, you like boys to men. Them niggas was singing with their feet, doing this in the air. And somehow once that went out, it was like, boys to men are just squares. They don't make they got Mariah.

[B]

It's not fair, bro.

[A]

I mean, hits, records, it's so hard

[B]

to say goodbye to yesterday. Like, they got records that the community.

[A]

We belong together.

[B]

I feel like what's happening right now

[A]

and you know that I'm right here is fucked up.

[B]

I'll make love to you. That's a good. Like, these are.

[C]

It's a great song.

[B]

Okay. And by the way, if you hating on them, this is also. This Jimmy Jam, Terry Lewis, this is Babyface.

[C]

But I'm not hating on them. I'm just saying this because I didn't say this isn't Anita Baker. Right? I didn't say their music doesn't move me, that I don't like it. That is what I say about Anita Baker. I can't find one song that I really like.

[A]

I just said, I want to protect black women.

[C]

Let me tell you this.

[A]

Now you're making me blue and you.

[B]

Do you know why?

[C]

When I said that, I cannot tell you how many people were pouring their hearts out to me privately. Of all the people, they were like, thank you for being bold enough to say that. Because there are this person I'm so scared to say, I don't feel this person's music I don't like.

[A]

So bada bah bah bah don't mean nothing to you?

[C]

Nah.

[A]

Bada bada ba ba. That don't mean nothing to you?

[C]

It means Skip. It means.

[A]

It's so funny that I came late to the game, but I. I feel it.

[C]

And I'm not alone. You know what the thing about Anita Baker is?

[A]

You cannot argue nostalgia. Yeah. And black people grew up with Anita Baker. They associate that with good times. And I gotta clean the house.

[C]

They said I had a dirty house.

[A]

For sure you did.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

I told my mom that cannot be nostalgia, period. That's true.

[B]

But them records are fucking fire.

[A]

I disagree with her wholeheartedly, but she's arguing against nostalgia.

[C]

I feel like I said I didn't like, I don't know Luther.

[A]

No, no, no. You did.

[B]

You did say you did like Luther.

[A]

Actually, it's exactly that. Saying you don't like Anita Baker is. You're saying you don't. No, no, no.

[C]

You're saying that she is the woman, Luther.

[A]

1,000%. 1%.

[B]

Are you nuts?

[A]

1,000 per. You just said I don't like Never Too Much. A House Is Not a Home dance from my. You just said those records mean nothing to you. He might as well never exist.

[C]

Guys, let me think.

[A]

That's what you're saying when you say

[C]

to think of who I think the

[A]

equivalent is, they might be the most

[B]

one to one, like Anita Bay.

[A]

Plus, she was independent. Plus, Freeway Rick Ross funded her first album. She got street cred. She owns her masters.

[B]

Look, if you don't like Anita Baker's

[C]

font, Anita Baker, she is. I'm just saying her music just doesn't. I love that you've done the full research. You know the biography now, 1000%.

[A]

I want black people to understand. And guess what, Rachel. There's no retribution for me. I'm an outcast. I'm still with you to the balcony.

[C]

I don't think so. I think you redeemed yourself.

[A]

It's pumpkin pie. Sweet grits. Anita Baker. That's what they call. That's my trifecta of non black.

[B]

You like sweet grits?

[A]

Mm.

[B]

That's crazy.

[C]

I don't like grits.

[A]

Oh, nigga, we out. Who are we? Even as people who.

[C]

It's a texture. It's texture.

[A]

It's always a texture.

[B]

But you know what, though? She doesn't eat macaroni and cheese.

[C]

Yeah, I don't do dairy.

[B]

She's like. So she. I think one of the people when I was still, like, fucking with the Reddit.

[C]

There are exceptions.

[B]

They said that they think Rachel has aphrod or something like that. What is that?

[A]

Is that aphrod?

[C]

It's like a neurodivergent thing.

[B]

It's a neurodivergent thing.

[C]

They're diagnosing kids with this.

[A]

I've never heard of this aphrod.

[B]

They think that Rachel has aphrod. We get diagnosed by all of the time.

[A]

I used to eat cheese.

[C]

It's just like, over time, I stopped eating it. So, yeah, so I'll eat it in certain things.

[A]

So you did like it. I don't agree with you.

[C]

Oh, I'm not lactose intolerant. I'm just. I just don't like it.

[A]

It stinks, to be honest.

[B]

Is avoidant restrictive food intake disorder is diagnosed Based on the DSM 5. Persistent failure to meet. Like, there's all kinds of things that you have.

[C]

Y' all are laughing at me. All of this stuff, and I have

[B]

major psychosocial disruption, they say. But you know what? Just like that dude, that say, nigga, we can't care. We gotta protect ourselves. Just like the guy that said nigga on the thing. We can't care. Like you say, like, we gotta look deeper. All right, you guys, there are a bunch of different topics that we had on the line, but there's nothing. I can't wait till Monday. This was a fantastic. Sit down, brother.

[A]

I had a blast.

[B]

Like, a fantastic.

[C]

Thank you so much, man.

[A]

Thank you for having me and being

[C]

open, you know what I mean?

[A]

I just like y', all, man. I think this ending conversation is so true. Like, we don't have to all agree on everything to rock with each other, right? We don't all have to love grits or macaroni and cheese or gospel music. It don't. We still people. We still niggas, man. We still community. You can disagree with somebody and be like, oh, I don't agree with Kev on that. Yeah, that's fine. That's okay.

[C]

That's okay.

[A]

You don't think Kev funny. That is fine.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

You don't think. Whatever. You good. You can yell at me in the comments. Cause like Van said, I actually come around to. I was disagreeing when you said it, but I actually agree. If you gonna be this visible and have this many opinions, that person has the right to say it.

[B]

They deserve it.

[A]

They say, I don't even like you. I wanna block you. I don't think you're funny. Or I disagree. I've opened myself up to that.

[C]

You know why? Because we would accept the compliments. So it's like you can't accept one and not realize that there's another side to that.

[A]

That's actually a great point. I would love if you say, I love Kev, but I put myself out there enough that I gotta force you to make a decision. So cool. I love this. All right, I'm done.

[B]

All right. By the way, Ian says Micah Stampley is the name of his cousin.

[A]

I know Micah.

[B]

Micah Stampley.

[A]

Good gospel music.

[B]

Micah Stampley.

[A]

Micah Stampley make good music.

[B]

I've met him before, too. Shout out to all of the Stampleys and Ian's people and whatever they got going on.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Take Dean caps off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathan Jr.

[C]

I'm Rachel and Lindsey.

[A]

I'm Kevin.

[C]

It.