← Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay
Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay
Don Lemon’s Arrest and ‘Melania’ a Box Office Hit? Plus, Howard Bryant on the Erasure of Paul Robeson
02:08:43
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Yo, yo, yo. Thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on.
- [00:11]
B
Is Ivan Lathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay.
- [00:15]
A
Look at this. Look what you got going on.
- [00:18]
B
Oh, yeah. You know, I switch it up every now and then.
- [00:21]
A
Switch it up.
- [00:22]
B
I miss the braids, though. I miss the braids, but I have to have to take a break. I feel like it's my look.
- [00:27]
A
Oh, the braids.
- [00:27]
B
If I had to pick my favorite hairstyle or what, I think I rock the best. It's the braids. I think they're a vibe.
- [00:34]
A
I think people are gonna like this. Yeah. Why, Principal Rach?
- [00:39]
B
Is that. Is that what it's giving? It's giving business like.
- [00:43]
A
Rach, you sit down. Okay? I'll tell you guys something, all right? I think we can make this loan work. But I'm telling you right now, this next six months is gonna be really important for you guys to keep up on your financials, get a couple of these things going on. The husband's looking like, I like this. The wife is like, we need to find another loan officer.
- [01:09]
B
I kind of like that. For me now. I kind of like that. I usually do a bob around super bowl, you know, Super Bowl's coming up. We're just gonna rock it for a little bit. I'll be in the braids again.
- [01:18]
A
Are you traveling to the San Francisco city this week?
- [01:22]
B
Yeah.
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A
When are you leaving?
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B
Thursday. After higher learning.
- [01:26]
A
After higher learning. You travel up there, you take a. You. You plane or you're gonna drive?
- [01:29]
B
Plane, plane, plane.
- [01:30]
A
People like to drive. I don't know.
- [01:31]
B
It's always a girls weekend. It's fun. I'm hosting a panel. I'm not hosting, but I'm sitting on a panel with female quotient. So doing that, it's like. Like a brand, that quotient. Yeah. You've never heard of female quotient?
- [01:45]
A
Never heard of them.
- [01:46]
B
Doesn't support the ladies. But anyways, female quotient is all about highlighting, like, women in business, particularly related to sports. They're at major sporting events. They highlight people in. In community. It's all about, like, that's what I'm speaking on is about community and. And creators in community and how it's connected to business and sports and all of that.
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A
Very much.
- [02:06]
B
Yeah.
- [02:07]
A
Much, very much, Very much needed conversation just to let you guys know something. Okay? Sub stack is going crazy. All right? Right now, I am live on the substack in the chat, and people are talking to me about what they want us to talk about on the show. So if you guys. I'm gonna be doing this every podcast.
- [02:27]
B
Oh, Lord.
- [02:28]
A
So if you jump join the substack, you join my page on the substack. I will be doing only on the substack. I'll be doing live back and forths with you guys, telling you guys what we're talking about. And then maybe if you want me to ask rate something or guess something, I'll ask.
- [02:46]
B
Top of the podcast. Before we get into it, you have to pay for your subset.
- [02:49]
A
No, it's free.
- [02:51]
B
For how long?
- [02:52]
A
I don't know. We'll see.
- [02:53]
B
You should eventually.
- [02:54]
A
Well, we'll see what happens, especially if.
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B
We'Re doing all this live chat back and forth.
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A
But Black History Month. You're into it. We're into it. We're having Howard Bryant on the show today to talk about two guys that are very important. His book Kings and Pawns and Kings and Pawns, Jackie Robinson and one of my father's favorite people ever, Paul Robeson. We also have Matt, Matthew Bellamy from the town podcast, star of the Amazon show, the studio. Okay, if you ever seen that apple. Is it Amazon or apple?
- [03:29]
C
Apple.
- [03:29]
A
Okay, leave it in. It's apple. Okay. I watched it. Matt's in it. Matt, if you guys don't know, works with us here at the Ringer. He's tall, looks like a fucking giant suit.
- [03:41]
B
I've never seen him in person.
- [03:42]
A
Never seen him in person. Oh, big guy. Looks like a fucking giant in the suit. Like he's ready to fucking crush Seth Rogen.
- [03:49]
B
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- [04:50]
A
Grammy Awards don't want to spend too Much time on it, but they were last night in la. Anything interesting happened for you?
- [04:59]
B
I mean, the d', Angelo, Roberta Flack, Angie Stone tribute. I mean, the countless number of artists on stage, legends on stage from Chaka Khan. I mean, they had so many people on stage that came out to sing particular songs to those three artists. Or really it was Roberta Flack and d'. Angelo. But of course, they honored Angie Stone in the back. They had so many people on stage that Anthony Hamilton was singing background the whole time. Like, that's how many artists just came out to honor these artists who were so influential to them, to us, to community, to culture. It was amazing. And it was led by Lauryn Hill, who hadn't taken. I didn't realize this hadn't been on the Grammy stage since 1999. Yeah, but there's a call to Arsenal. Yeah.
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A
Lauren's gonna, you know, show up. Be there. Those performers are just incredibly important. And shout out to Anthony Hamilton. Anthony Hamilton is a cultural staple.
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B
No, for sure. But my point. And looked amazing on stage, but that's how big the star power was. That, like, there were so many people coming. He was like, I'm going to be a part of this. He was like, right there, front and center, singing background. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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A
Using that once in a generation voice.
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B
Ever been to an Anthony Hamilton show? He is an incredible performer. Great show.
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A
Amazing political sort of expressions at the Grammys.
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B
Did you expect that? Yeah, yeah.
- [06:33]
A
Because the music industry is way less pussy than Hollywood.
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B
Keep going.
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A
Hollywood. The actors and all of that, they really need the studios and really need the infrastructure of the studios to be superstars.
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B
You don't think that music needs that.
- [06:57]
A
They do. They do need it. It is different, though, okay? It's different in that music is something that you go into a studio and you perform. Now, don't get me wrong, you need radio. If you're gonna be a superstar, you need radio.
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B
You got the machine behind you for sure.
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A
You need management, you need Spotify, you need all of that stuff. Right? But it's between you and the audience, what you're doing. Boom. So a lot of times, as far as protest is concerned, as far as sticking up is concerned, the musician, to me, has a little bit more cajones. Okay. Or a little bit more fat labia. All right? Because I don't just want to make it about. I don't want to make it fat.
- [07:47]
B
Labia is your comparison to big balls. I sit with that for a second.
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A
I just came up with that off the top of my head. But I don't want to just make it about big balls.
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B
Don't do it again.
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A
But what. Okay, what's the right thing to say then? Because it's. Big balls is very hetero normative about. Because big balls. But I want to. I want to give a shout out to the strength of the vagina as well. Like, what is it? Fat labia, big clit, energy?
- [08:16]
B
I don't know, man.
- [08:18]
A
I'm trying to be. You know what? I'm just gonna stick with toxic.
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B
There's something.
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A
Cause every time I try to get out of the realm. Cause people say, van, don't say that something is pussy. Because vaginas are actually very tough.
- [08:33]
B
Yes.
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A
Facts. Okay. But then I try to come back and say, hey, it takes balls to say this. And then I say, it takes fat labia.
- [08:40]
B
Well, I don't think that's it. I commend you. I commend you for trying to find something equivalent for women, but I don't think it's fat labia.
- [08:49]
A
Okay, can I get. Are you going to help?
- [08:51]
B
Maybe I'm thinking of it. Because what I don't want to do is make the mistake of saying fat labia.
- [08:56]
A
Okay. Jade. Is there Jade in this situation? Is somebody going to help me as I try to evolve, or is it just going to be about, let's kick van?
- [09:08]
B
And maybe that's the problem, is that there is no equivalent term. We'll come up with one and we'll think about it. Not that, but thank you for. For trying.
- [09:18]
A
I appreciate.
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B
Okay.
- [09:19]
A
I appreciate acknowledgment from my sisters in the room.
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B
Okay. Let me give you your credit for trying to do that.
- [09:25]
A
I'm. I'm saying this. I'm not saying that Hollywood is completely cowardly when it comes to these things. I'm saying that the music industry is essentially. So I can distill this. They have to act like rebels. They have to be rebels. When you see, like a lot of times they have to act like rebels and be rebels. So when they actually have something to say, they say, now increasingly, a lot of these fucking rappers and other people aren't saying this stuff. Increasingly, they're not doing it. But you see Kalani, you see a lot of other people up there. That energy, that direct, confrontational energy is what I'm talking about. And it bothered Tomi Lahren. So I appreciate that. They got under her skin.
- [10:06]
B
Oh, it bothered her. It bothered Donald Trump. It bothered a lot of people. And you add the musicians getting on stage and using their platform to Protest and say ice out or fuck ice. And then Bad Bunny wins album of the year. An entirely. Everything is in Spanish on the album. Just even more adds to the dismay of the Trumps, the maga, that whole administration. But to your point about music, I think that there is music, because I think, like, historically, when you think of music and you think of songs, they've been used to protest, they've been used to further a certain message, like, all the way back. Even when you think of, like, old Negro spirituals, like, there's a message behind it. There's a. You know, like it's used in furtherance of something. Whereas you don't necessarily see that as much in movies or television or whatever. Unless it's like a documentary or something. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm just saying with music, it's there.
- [11:12]
A
Yeah. I think trying to say it's a lot of movies about a lot of important.
- [11:18]
B
Of course, of course, of course.
- [11:19]
A
A lot of actors have been at the forefront and all of that stuff like that. We talk about guys like, you know, Harry Belafonte, who's also a singer as well, and all that stuff like that. A lot of actors have always been at the front of these movies. However, there is a thought that in music, and I hope that people, you know, contemporary performers understand this, that if your music does not at some point address social issues or something that is more substantive than just making people dance, then it's. It's not useful in the long term, long run. It's not enduring, like, in the long term, long run. Like. And so I think a lot of people, and like, love can be that, and the human connection can be that. But I think when people listen to songs by serious people, they want to hear commentary on what's going on in the world.
- [12:12]
B
Yeah, it's.
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A
It's like almost proof of concept of your talent that you can do something more than just make somebody dance in the club. You can address something that's a little bit more substantive.
- [12:22]
B
Yeah. Because where does the motivation come from for what you're. You're writing about? Like, the what. Like you're writing about what you're feeling, what you're seeing, what you're like. That's. That's why music has a. As a way to hit you in a way that maybe watching something or reading something doesn't, because it connects to an emotion, to a feeling. Did you see that the Ricky Gervais quote was going around this go around for Grammys, even though it's a Golden Globe.
- [12:46]
A
Oh. He was like, just get off the stage and take your.
- [12:48]
B
Yeah. He was like, the stage isn't for your political speech. Just get on, thank your agent, you know, whoever you believe in, and get off basically saying, like, there's no reason for you to do that. And I think the Grammys showed exactly why you do do that. I think that what they did was powerful. I think it's wrong to dismiss. Kind of similar to what we talking about last time. It's wrong to just. If you have a platform and you believe you should use it for purpose, then why would you take that away from someone? I think that what we saw on the stage with people speaking out against the administration specifically, you had some people take the. The route of, you know, saying, you know, like, we can't hate. It needs to be with love, but we are human beings. We are people. You had people connecting personal stories. My parent was an immigrant. My grandparent was a. Like, that's. That's powerful. Like, it made immigration policy talk. What the administration's doing. Conversational. I felt like because it was so big, it wasn't just a pin that said ice out. It was personal what was happening on that stage. And so to all the people sharing that around.
- [13:55]
A
Sharing what around? The Rica Gervaiski.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So there's a conversation about hypocrisy and a conversation about action that sometimes is difficult to have, right?
- [14:13]
B
Sure.
- [14:14]
A
Sometimes it's difficult to have. And the reason why the conversation is difficult to have is because of an ex. An expectation of purity when it relates to these issues. See, there's a cowardice in there, and the cowardice is from people who in some way want to find reasons to keep the party going. So what they say is, unless you are the complete right spokesperson for something at the time, unless there's no flies on your rep, unless you are the right messenger for this, then you shouldn't speak about it. What that's really saying is that no one should.
- [15:01]
B
Right.
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A
Because the expectation of purity that a lot of people have for people, you just can't meet that. You can't meet that expectation. So the problem with saying, hey, you work for Amazon, or hey, you work for Disney, or hey, you were. So you shouldn't say these things.
- [15:19]
B
Right.
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A
Is dumb. It's stupid. It doesn't make any sense because we all work for someone and in. Who we work for is the trap of the American game. That's the trap. The trap is, hey, you can't really talk about this because you got to Come in to work and punch the clock. And we need you to be a good cog in the wheel. So fuck all of that other stuff. Just do what we ask.
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B
Yeah.
- [15:44]
A
There's no pure spokesperson. There's no person that you can't investigate who they are or where they've been. And you're not going to find something you don't like. The purest activist person in the world that is doing it at the grassroots, in the community has somebody that doesn't like them. I remember in 2018, I go to Baton Rouge. I'm not gonna mention no names. I hear somebody talk, I go, that person's gonna be a star. Let me get closer to that person. I think that this person is fantastic. Immediately I started hearing from people that they don't. That they don't like about them. Immediately about times that he's been too bombastic, about times that he's raised his voice, all of that stuff. Some of it true, but the reality is that that doesn't matter. What matters is who's brave enough and willing enough to fucking go out there and put themselves on the line.
- [16:35]
B
Right.
- [16:35]
A
So sometimes it's performative, and you have to call that out, talk about that. Of course, sometimes it's performative, but most of the time.
- [16:42]
B
What did you see performative last night? What, you thought something was performative?
- [16:46]
A
No, I think sometimes it is performative. There are people out there that are using causes that are meaningful to your life as part of their celebrity portfolio.
- [17:00]
B
I agree.
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A
There are people that are doing that.
- [17:02]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
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A
But that's where you get to be a person. That's where you have to have a head on your shoulders and really discuss and talk about what type of protests and action is meaningful to you. Everybody has different jobs. All right, Don Lemon is out.
- [17:18]
B
Okay. Yes, he is. And so are the other journalists.
- [17:21]
A
And so are the other journalists. Don Lemon and Georgia Fort. Georgia for shout out to you, sister. That's also a great name to be remembered in history. Georgia Fort.
- [17:30]
B
She's a Fort.
- [17:31]
A
We're going to talk more about this. Hold on for a second. Let's see if Don will pick the phone up. Let's see if I can get. Let's see if I can get Don Lemon, vanguard of the revolution, to answer the phone. Let's see if he'll pick up. He's probably getting calls from all kinds of people right now. Let's see. Don Lemon.
- [17:50]
B
I hope he sends you straight to voicemail.
- [17:52]
A
Why?
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B
Cause it would just be funny.
- [17:54]
A
Let's see Don Lemon Atlanta number.
- [17:59]
B
Ah, right to it. Right to it. Right to voicemail, Don.
- [18:04]
A
Hold on. Let's see if Don Lemon will answer the phone. Let's see Don Lemon one more time. We're going to try to break through the do not disturb. Don said. Fuck you. Hey, I'm telling you guys something right now. The arrest of Don Lemon and the persecution of journalists in this country. They're not even cloaking it anymore, guys. It's here. It's not. Fascism is not around the corner. Yeah. You guys are living in the fascist nation. And maybe you were before. Maybe they were so good at cloaking it and hiding it that you didn't even realize you were. Maybe other people care about the illusion of freedom and stuff like that, so they're able to kind of negotiate that a little bit better in the ways that they move around. They're able to give a little here, do a little here. But maybe there is a political movement right now that says fascism. That is whispering is not valuable. It only really matters when you shout it. And they're shouting it at you in all kinds of different ways.
- [19:12]
B
They're shouting fascism at you.
- [19:14]
A
They're shouting fascism with the way they're using ice. They're shouting fascism with the way they are arresting journalists. They're shouting fascism with the way that they are using the government to go after the president's enemies. They are shouting it. They're looking at you right now, the Trump administration, and they're saying, hey, we are dominating and using this autocratic political power to influence and choke every single freedom that you have.
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B
Yeah.
- [19:50]
A
And I want to just once again, talk to the right. You guys are such pussies. The right. I am. I'm going to be honest with you.
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B
You did it again.
- [20:03]
A
What?
- [20:03]
B
Pussies.
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A
Oh, y' all don't have fat labia. Y' all got tiny labia. The right. You guys are the biggest fucking cowards I've ever seen. And let me tell you why I'm saying this.
- [20:17]
B
Yeah, why?
- [20:18]
A
I tell you why I'm saying this. I actually believed them.
- [20:25]
B
With what?
- [20:26]
A
Listen, if you ever get to, like, where I'm from, right. South, Louisiana, you talk to the white boys down there that, you know, man, get them on a rant on Ruby Ridge and government overreach and why they need 150 guns. Like, get them on a rant. Talk about the Weaver family and how they went in there and entrapped the family. The father shot the dog, enticed the kid into a gunfight, killed the son. How long Horiuchi sniped and shot Weaver's wife in her head as she was holding her baby. And when you were in that growing up in the 90s and stuff like that, you're listening to these guys. They're saying the government itself will come and take everything that you have, including your family. Then you go to Waco, you get into all of these guys and they're sort of militia patriot air front era beliefs and all of that stuff. They'll tell you why they need all of their guns, why they don't need to be any rules. They'll relate all of this stuff. These conversations that I was having at this time, this. These conversations were around, like, the old governor Mike Foster of Louisiana signing legislation that was saying that people shouldn't have to wear helmets on motorcycles and from a helmet on motorcycle conversation, you'll get into why perfect freedom is the ability to do whatever you want without the government being able to tell you what you can do. Those people are lying, fucking cowardly cuck bastards. Because I went to school with y', all, I worked with y', all, I seen y' all now mask the people on the streets of the country, shooting people and y' all with it.
- [22:22]
C
You're.
- [22:22]
A
I mean, I guess I always knew this, but I am still shocked by the fact that some of the construction of the mythology of the right around governmental overreach around the need to protect yourself from this about the sanctity of the Constitution. We're talking about originalists here. It's all dead to take the tiniest sip from Trump's penis.
- [22:58]
B
Not penis. Famous. Hey.
- [23:04]
A
I'm trying to fire H up. I'm doing a bad job today. Between that. Look, look at her. She's. She's.
- [23:11]
B
But, yeah, because I was like, what? I. I'm following. I'm, like, listening to your every word and you were like to. To take the tiniest sip and I'm like, yeah. And I just, like. I thought she was eating Trump's Kool Aid.
- [23:23]
A
Oh, you said that would have been better. Yeah, I'm just saying, like, I get you, though.
- [23:28]
B
I get you. I get you.
- [23:29]
A
You know, I'm. It's actually.
- [23:31]
B
They've been doing it for so long, Van, that I'm not. I don't know, like, when you're like, the right has tiny labia. For the purposes of this episode. I. I get. They've been doing it. They've had it for a long time. They've been doing this.
- [23:45]
A
This is different.
- [23:48]
B
Which. When did it become different for you? Which thing was it? Ice.
- [23:51]
A
The ice deployments. The ice deployments. Show me the fragility of the entire message of the movement on the right. Like I go on cnn, sit down on cnn, and I'm like, okay, look, there is no way that these people who claim to be God and country conservatives, they can't begin to launder this. And they launder it.
- [24:14]
B
Ice deploying into these cities or ice or what happened with, with Alex Preddy, particularly because of the Second Amendment. Right.
- [24:21]
A
I'm talking about before Alex Preddy. Okay, I'm talking about before Alex Preddy. I'm talking about Alex Jones talking about a different Alex. His number one fear was masked agents that were going to be roaming the streets of America, harassing American citizens and putting them in jail because of their political beliefs. That was his number one fear. He would say that all the time. We're going to get there. And we did, and it was his guy that got us there. So I, so I don't know. This is, you know, it's, you know, maybe it was always a fairy tale, the nra, all of this stuff. We've talked about it, it's always a fairy tale. But like, this is the moment that America should be looking at the death of Santa Claus.
- [25:08]
B
Well, a lot of people, you know, on social were saying, like, if you were upset about what happened with Jimmy Kimmel, then you need to be even in more fear of what's happening with Don Lemon, Georgia Ford and the other journalists. You need to be concerned about. Cuz this is the party who's like, freedom of speech. Freedom of speech. You know, this is freedom of press. You had Blanche go on TV this weekend and say, well, this is freedom of religion versus freedom of press. That's actually not what it is. I mean, I don't even want to go into the legality of it, but when you look at the face act, it's, you know, it was for anti abortion protesters. And then there's of course a part in there about churches and places of worship as well. And they're using this to now attack a Don Lemon and Georgia Ford. I don't know how they win this. I mean, we know procedurally that they tried to get a magistrate judge to give an arrest warrant to Don Lemon and these other journalists. He said no. The 8th Circuit, which is very conservative, said no as well. But then they were able to put it in front of a grand jury, get an indictment who said that there's a evidence, there's probable cause to move this forward to possibly a trial. I think they'll lose. Like, when you look at what the elements are of this, I think they will lose. But the fact is it's happening.
- [26:25]
A
Know what the funniest thing about it is?
- [26:26]
B
What? It's a miscalculation on who's on their part.
- [26:31]
A
It's a miscalculation. This was the wrong thing to do.
- [26:35]
B
Well, don't you think the time, like when I saw this too, when this happened and everybody was talking about it, then the eps, then the files were released at the same time, which we'll talk about. So I don't know if I agree with you. It was a miscalculation. But I knew what they were trying to do. I'm like, okay, this makes perfect sense because everyone's up in arms and talking about what's happening to the journalists, as they should. But also we just got a whole bunch of files and all this went down on a Friday.
- [27:00]
A
All right? There is no way to make us forget about the Epstein files. Okay? All right. I could be in Turks and Caicos right now. It's Turks. It's Turks and Caicos, right? I've been before. It is Turk. I could be in Turks right now. I could have a drink called a BBC. Now. This is a drink.
- [27:25]
B
What's in it?
- [27:26]
A
It's Bailey's Banana and Cream.
- [27:28]
B
Ew.
- [27:29]
A
That's the drink. Now. I'll tell you guys something. If you've ever been to the islands before, you go to Anguilla, you go to Turks, you go to these places. I remember I'm in the islands one time, I'm with a friend of mine and he goes up to the bar and he goes, I want a BBC. And I was like, yo, what kind of trip is this? Why are you asking the bartender for this? The bartender goes, you want that BBC? And I was like, yes, it's a drink.
- [28:03]
B
It looks disgusting.
- [28:04]
A
Okay. It's a great drink for when you in the islands. Bailey's Banana and cream. The BBC's. You go there and you drinking a ton of BBC's. It's BBC's the whole time you're there. It's a never ending stream of BBCs when you're in some of these places. Okay. It's a drink though, is the thing.
- [28:22]
C
So it feels warm for milk in your drink. Cream.
- [28:26]
D
I don't know about that.
- [28:26]
C
In the islands.
- [28:27]
A
That feels like.
- [28:27]
C
That's a weird. Donnie.
- [28:28]
B
We were now, Donnie. We were just about to move on.
- [28:31]
A
It's not. But that's not. It's cold though. It's Bailey's Vanilla. It's an iced drink. It's a delightful drink. You got the BBC.
- [28:37]
B
It. Look, I. I looked it up. It looks absolutely disgusting.
- [28:41]
A
Okay, all right, let's not. Okay, Forget about the baby.
- [28:43]
B
It's not refreshing. Like, I want a refreshing drink when I'm on.
- [28:46]
A
Okay. Rum punch.
- [28:48]
B
I. No, I mean, I. I don't. I'm sorry. I don't dislike it. It's not my drink of choice. I like a pina colada. I like pina colada. I like a.
- [28:57]
A
You like a what? What do you like a pina colada?
- [28:59]
B
I like a pina colada. I like rum. I just like no rum punch. I'm not as into a fr. Because of the sugar, so, you know, like, I like more of, like, a straight up drink.
- [29:10]
A
So Rachel's on the beach. She's hanging out on the beach. Rachel's like, whiskey neat. Basically, like, Rachel's on the. Rachel, let me sit. Like, hey, bring me a vat of vodka right here.
- [29:26]
B
Like Russian, basically. Give me a tequila, straight up.
- [29:30]
A
Tequila, straight up.
- [29:31]
B
All right.
- [29:31]
A
I don't drink that on the beach. All right. I don't drink that on the beach. I'm on the beach. I like to have a.
- [29:37]
B
You love a umbrella or something in your drink. For sure.
- [29:44]
A
There's a place in Anguilla called Gwen's. Gwen's has hammocks. They have food inside, and they also have the rum punch. Gwen's rum punch is the best rum punch in the world to me. You go there. What I'm saying is I could be. This is the deal. I could be at Gwen's in Anguilla with some ribs, because they do the ribs and the chicken, and you guys. You guys are too immature for the BBC. Okay, but with a rum punch, and I could get an alert on my phone that says, hey, new Epstein files dropped. I' ma stop what I'm doing and I'm going to look at the Epstein.
- [30:22]
B
Files on an island.
- [30:24]
A
On an island. Damn.
- [30:26]
B
Yeah.
- [30:26]
A
That's crazy.
- [30:27]
B
Yeah.
- [30:28]
A
On an island, doing the thing. There's nothing you can do to distract us from this at this point? I say this to take Don Lemon, an expert in not only communication, but an expert in celebrity, an expert in messaging. A guy who's been doing this for so long and make him into a martyr.
- [30:54]
B
Yeah.
- [30:54]
A
Is a miscalculation by the Trump administration.
- [30:57]
B
I agree.
- [30:57]
A
It's the wrong guy to do this to Don, who has been doing really good work as a journalist, hitting the streets, talking to People being on the streets in Minnesota. Right. Who is making a reputation different than his reputation at cnn where some people were in on Don, but a lot of people were out on Don. Remember, Don goes to Ferguson. He's got the Gucci on. He goes. It's the smell of weed in the air. Don is now has a people first issue. First.
- [31:31]
B
Yeah. He does. Platform and calling out traditional media.
- [31:34]
A
And calling out traditional media using what he learned at some of these places to be a different type of a journalist. So he's on the street in Minnesota. They arrest him. But they arrest a guy who has a legacy media background.
- [31:49]
B
Yeah.
- [31:49]
A
Who can use this to enhance his platform and actually stand as something that is a magnifying glass of the fascist tendencies of the Trump administration. It's actually a mistake. And they did it. They are not in their prime anymore.
- [32:10]
D
No.
- [32:10]
B
They're too far gone, I think. And I don't know if they. I'm not going to say that they ever were in touch with exactly what people think or maybe the other side is saying. But they've got so the. It's so their community is so they're in such a bubble that they're only listening to themselves. And I just don't. I think that they have. So, like, for example, it's like whatever Trump says they're going to do and if they don't. I was listening to somebody talk about this. Like you're not seeing Pam Bondi as much. Right.
- [32:42]
A
Right.
- [32:42]
B
You're seeing Blanche instead. Right. Because they're not liking what she's doing. Cuz Blanche is doing a better job in Trump's eyes of executing things. There was a time where they were gonna pull back Kristi Noem and replace her with someone else. Then Kristi Noem cranked it up. So it's like whatever Trump wants to do, nobody's checking him. They're. Yes. People. And this is obviously digging them a deeper and deeper hole to where they're losing their way strategically and just doing whatever Trump wants to do impulsively on a whim. It's why you have a Greg Bovino up on a microphone saying whatever he wants to say. And they have to get him out of there. It's why they're in front of people. You saying, I don't care what you saw. We're telling you what to believe. It's Trump having for years hating Don Lemon and then Blanche going on TV saying he doesn't have an issue with Don Lemon. The White House doesn't have an issue. You can Go back and look at all of it. They're losing their way because they're just doing whatever they can to keep their jobs and to please Trump. That's where they are right now, right? Without strategies, what's got them here? They've lost their way.
- [33:52]
A
But they used to be really good at Celebrity Game. They used to be really good at message making, at branding things like all of these little terms that we use. You know, they were good at coming out and gaming the cultural system. You know, you got basically a used car salesman in the White House, right? You got like a TV star, reality TV star, all of that stuff. They're just not hitting on this stuff anymore.
- [34:23]
B
But could that be because they're turning it up like they were. The fascism and authoritarianism was always within all of this, but it was on the line, right? Like we're doing a little bit here, we're doing a little bit there. There can be an argument made that says, well, they're doing it for this purpose now. They're cranking it up to the point where they're really in their fascist groove to where maybe that's why it seems like, okay, it was a miscalculation because there is no calculations. We're full blown, we got our fascist hat on, and that's the direction that we're moving in, because that's what this is. There was no way for them to. I mean, they're saying that Don Lemon, this was an organized, planned attack. Don Lemon and the other journalist are reporting what's happening. They're not threatening, they're not forcing their way. They're not coercing anybody. They're literally reporting on what it is they're saying, which is what reporters do. This is why this is going to be interesting to me, because I don't think this is going to go far. But let's just say for some reason, somehow it works its way up. What will the Supreme Court do when it comes to the First Amendment? Because the First Amendment, when you really start to get into it, really doesn't protect reporters as much as it does of a. Allowing, you know, publications to be able to speak on the government, like that's the case, but it doesn't necessarily protect the individual. So it's. I'm really curious to see how far they take this and how far it will go. Will they just let a court decide and it just gets dismissed, or will they keep pushing the issue to try to go after or, you know, prevent a Don Lemon type journalist or any left journalist or any Journalist who isn't in line with what they, they want out there.
- [36:12]
A
Once I saw Amy Coney Barrett on Ross Doubt, that's show like last year and I listened to her give a very cogent, clear headed defense and really endorsement of unitary executive theory. I no longer had any faith that the Supreme Court would do anything other than codify, both legally and culturally, the President as a king just, she believes in that. Like she believes in that she, she believes in. Told you guys to look it up. A decade old, a decades old interpretation of the Constitution that just puts very, very few limits on the power of the executive. And so if I know that this is not directly in the wheelhouse of that, but it is the president or the executive body through the doj deciding who the enemies of America are.
- [37:21]
B
Yeah.
- [37:21]
A
And how that is expressed, how you can express that you are an enemy of America. Last thing I'll say about this, the people who went to protest in the church, they likely violated the Face Act. Okay, all right, so here's the deal. Protest has never been low leverage, at least meaningful protests. Sometimes when you go and you protest, part of your goal in civil disobedience is to show how unjust laws are or to break those laws in furtherance of your cause. So if you're going to go into a place, if you're going to stop traffic, you're going to go into a place of worship, you're going to do that stuff. That to me is totally appropriate in this situation. I have no problem with a little civil disobedience. I have no problem with a lot of civil disobedience. I have no problem with most forms of resistance. They're different.
- [38:24]
B
Yes. They stopped actual worship.
- [38:28]
A
They know what they are doing and they think that it's important because a member of ICE is leading the congregation in their city. Don documenting that, that is a completely different and separate issue. Him documenting that and doing the work, especially if you watch the stream. If you watch the stream. The way he talked to the protesters, the way he talked to the church parishioners, the way he talked to everyone was from a standard that was journalistic. To me, journalistically pure. Okay, before we get to Epstein, let's talk about a couple of video clips I saw. All right, this is Harvey Levin from tmz. Play it. This is the playbook that dictators use.
- [39:10]
D
To destroy democracies and take the will.
- [39:13]
A
Of the people away.
- [39:14]
D
It is as simple as that.
- [39:16]
C
Without a free press, you don't have a democracy.
- [39:19]
D
And it's real clear that Donald Trump.
- [39:22]
C
And company doesn't want a free press.
- [39:25]
A
Ok, that's Harvey. This is Andrew Schultz on Brilliant Idiots talking about his breaking point with Donald Trump.
- [39:38]
D
And look, I know I had Trump.
- [39:39]
A
On the podcast, you know, and I'm aware of explaining that. Let me just clarify because I think.
- [39:44]
D
It is important to say, like, I know how I had him on the podcast. And like, so I, when I, when.
- [39:50]
A
I'm talking out about this, I'm not doing it to, like, you know, get.
- [39:53]
D
People to be like, oh, he's a good guy, or whatever like that, or.
- [39:55]
C
Trying to get anybody on my side. I understand that this is a horrific event that happened. I objectively want to talk about it. I'm not trying to, like, win anybody over in this.
- [40:03]
A
You understand, you know, the difference between right and wrong.
- [40:05]
D
There's a difference between right and wrong.
- [40:06]
C
And there's a difference between, like, respecting.
- [40:08]
D
And honoring the Constitution, the backbone of our country.
- [40:11]
A
And then completely shredding it. And this is completely shredding it.
- [40:15]
D
And now they're realizing that people have.
- [40:16]
C
Noticed it and now they're trying to backtrack it.
- [40:18]
A
But by the way, he's been wiping his ass with the Constitution. Sure. And I've been on record a million times saying, like, whenever, when he said we should terminate the Constitution to overthrow the results of election, she like, that got to be disqualifying if you run it for president. So here's a brief example. So it's like, I know that there.
- [40:32]
D
Are people sounding the alarms about this.
- [40:34]
C
When I saw these last few weeks in Minnesota, I didn't think it was possible to happen in the United States of America.
- [40:38]
D
I'm being 100% to white people.
- [40:39]
A
No, to anybody. But you've seen it happen to black people.
- [40:42]
C
Exactly.
- [40:42]
A
Yes. Yes to white people. It's okay to say that.
- [40:46]
C
No, it is.
- [40:47]
A
But it's okay to say, I don't, I don't. I mean, I didn't know that this.
- [40:51]
C
Was possible to happen in the United.
- [40:52]
D
States of America when I'm specifically talking.
- [40:54]
A
About, with, with this situation here. And, like, not only this one, but.
- [40:58]
D
Also what we've seen ICE doing, like.
- [41:00]
C
Entering homes without warrants.
- [41:01]
A
Okay, so a couple of things here. I saw our friend Jimmy Kimmel post that it is important to let people in that are realizing that what they are seeing is wrong, even if those people were not on the right side of the election or have a past of being in proximity to Trump. Another person, Ryan Garcia, the Boxer, broke with Trump, citing his faith and the Epstein allegations. Ryan said Anyone that was involved in anything to do with that island and what they were doing, I just can't support that in any way. Children need to be protected. Everyone knew better. Justice for all. What are your thoughts about. We're talking more specifically about, you know, what's going on with these guys. What was your thoughts about what Jimmy says or what anyone says, that you need to let people into a coalition that's standing against fascism, even if they're only coming to it right now.
- [42:04]
B
So I'm not against what Jimmy Kimmel said, but I'm also not going to be fooled. Right. You know, you're not going to fool me twice when it comes to this. I hear what you say, what you're saying. I'm going to watch what you do. There are people who say that, you know, Trump's never going to get out of office or he's going to try to run for a third term. But let's just talk in the space of he has two terms and he's done.
- [42:30]
D
Done.
- [42:30]
B
Your issue is what Trump is doing now. He's done. I'm not hearing you talk about specifically the administration. I'm hearing you talk about Trump. I'm not hearing you talk about J.D. vance or maybe the next person who might decide to run in Trump's place and who the GOP decides to make the one to represent the Republicans in the presidential election. That is what I need more of. I need you to be upset because. Because I hear Andrew and I'm critical of Charlamagne a lot, but I will give him a lot of credit for this. He held his feet to the fire and said, you're shocked because it's happening to people who look like you. You need to acknowledge that it's personal. It's hitting home. You're not used to this. You've been hardened or it's been watered down. For you to continue to see black and brown people this happened to, but not necessarily for people who look like you. I. There have been, and we kind of talked about this earlier on the podcast. Yeah, this. What's happening in Minnesota has been a wake up call for a lot of people, but it's been happening in our country. And authoritarianism has existed in so many other ways. Education, women's rights, people of color, voting, like so many different things have been affected by the Trump administration. But this is the thing. Are you mad just because of what is happening in this particular incident and to who? Or are you recognizing a pattern that is problematic, that is associated not just with Trump, not Just with this administration, but what this party is willing to do. So I hear you, and that's great. And I'm. I'm not saying, well, you should. Well, look where we are now. I'm not that person. So that's why I accept what Jimmy Kimmel is saying. But at the same time, I'm waiting to see how you're going to continue on talking about these things. Are you recognizing some of the other things that I mentioned? And how will you vote in the midterms and the next presidential election and beyond? That's what's important to me. And I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing them mad about this.
- [44:36]
A
So Jimmy's right, first of all, Jimmy's right. Jimmy's right, because you don't want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. So Trump won. Trump is the executive that is running the country. What happens is people see the way an executive runs the country and they go, I don't like the way the country is being run. My economic situation isn't changing. On top of that, people that I share my community with, even if I had thoughts about those people that were racist and xenophobic, you see something, you go, none. For me. That's the way it's always been done. The way change has happened has always been with coalitions that were broader than your group of people that could say, this right here, no, good. Let's try something new. Whether or not that will lead to a lasting political shift from those people, who knows? There are a couple of people that exist in American society. When I say a couple of people, I mean there's a cohort of people that exist in American society that aren't really as handcuffed or aligned to one side of political ideology as you would think they are. These are people that kind of vote along. I guess not vibes necessarily, but what they see in the moment that they're in. The reason why I always like to have conversations with people about what kind of world they want to live in, what kind of society. Me, and we're talking about this with Ashley. Do you want to live in? Is because that hardens your belief in the American political reality. That's something that then becomes oriented around principle. The principle about people being free, about expression, about people's right to health care, people's right to housing, about dignity for people. That is something that should be durable to me across generations and across different political movements. Now, we could also talk about the interpretation of that. What's dignity to me might not be dignity to you. We might need to negotiate that societally. There's something else here though. And this is the thing to me that is more. I don't want to say, not necessarily even corrupting the thing that's more. Precarious. The thing that's more. I don't know how I want to put this. Leave this all in as I search for this word concerning. I'll put it in this situation. I know both of these guys, right? I know both of these guys. They're not fire breathing dragons. I know we feel like they are. I know you guys feel like they are. I know they're not. They're not fire breathing dragons. They're not Harvey first. Harvey and our rel and Harvey and I's relationship wasn't just boss to employee during my time at tmz. It wasn't. I had an affection for Harvey Levin that is difficult for people to hear. I understand that. I did. My father was very sick. Even during the time that I was at tmz, whenever my dad was sick, I needed to go, I needed to take care of things. I'm gone. I have a breakdown in the office. I literally pass out in the office. Talked about this before. I pass out in the office. There are all kinds of no one knows what's going on with me, right? I got hit a stressed out in the whole deal. No one knows what's going on with me. I pass out a battery of tests, like looking at me, checking up on me. All of that stuff all come from like Harvey making calls. See this neuro, neurologist, see this psychologist, therapeutic, yoga, all of this all around, all of that stuff, right? The battles that I had inside TMZ and anybody that has worked there, Lauren, Nina, anybody tells you the type of battles that you will have inside of tmz, at least at the time that I was there as a self respecting black person. You're gonna have those battles. You're going to have them. I almost left TMZ because they wrote a fucked up headline about Marion Barry. And in my entire time there, that was the time that I was pushed the most by the editorial leadership there. Because I go on Twitter and I say, hey, keep complaining, keep getting in their face. I get a call from Harvey. Harvey goes, you're not an editorial voice on the site. I'm like, black people are mad if black people are mad. And you would think that I would be the person that will go there, go to them and tell them to not be mad. You don't really know me that well. But what happens after that? And this is maybe a low bar for me. Maybe it's different for me. Now, what happens after that is we have that conversation on the show. So on Monday, me, Harvey, the guy who produced the. The the and wrote the headline to the Marionberry piece, right? We all have that conversation on TMZ Live. The whole time I was there, I was never told what to say. I was never told what not to say. I was never in any way said, van, you're going too far. Never. Like when something was done inside the office and I had a problem with it, I go there and we talk about it. A lot of those battles I won, some of them I didn't win. There's one thing that changed the nature of Harvey and I's relationship, and that was Donald Trump. This is a fact now Donald Trump comes to power. 16. The Kanye thing happens. 18. Anybody that worked there at that point knows that there were a couple of times where one time that people will remember that Harvey and I ended up having a shouting match in the office. I thought his support for Donald Trump at that point, I legitimately thought. But his support for Donald Trump, who is his friend, and even the way TMZ handled a lot of the Donald Trump stuff, I thought that was beyond him. I know that that seems naive to a lot of people. I thought it was beyond him. Like, that was something at that point. That was my Nigga wake up call. My nigga wake up call was shit, right? This is a threat. I see it. This isn't. This is a threat. I see this guy. I see the way people are responding. Himself see the way people are. And I wasn't alone. If everyone. If anyone thinks that there were a bunch of people in that office that weren't pissed off about that, they're wrong. I wasn't alone at all. Like, it was legitimately for me. Like, God damn. For real. Like, I. I could not believe it. Credit where credit's due or, like, being fair. It took Harvey very little time to jump off the Trump bandwagon. It took him very little time. The first time Kanye comes to TMZ is the whole slavery was a choice thing, right? Kanye came back, Ken TMZ again. People don't remember that. During that time, me and Kanye didn't have any conversation, right? We didn't talk at all. Harvey and him talked, and Harvey asked him at that point if he would take the MAGA hat off. So this is like. This is like. After that, this is like. I mean, this is a couple of Years into Trump, there were a couple of things that Trump had done that I guess had pissed Harvey off and, you know, had him peel off support. The reason why I'm saying this is not in any way give you guys a full picture because of what I believe to be the. What I believe to be what's at the heart of both of these conversations, Andrew and Harvey, and why the mea culpa or the change of heart is not the thing that I really believe is under this. Is this being transactional? That's the thing that scares me. Harvey Levin, during the time that Donald Trump was becoming a national political figure, had a television show that he wanted to do. Trying to get a television show off there. That show was called Objectified. And what happened on this show, what was supposed to happen on the show, what the show was about, is you walk somebody through your house or whatever they. Their house, you walk them through your house, you picked up objects and you gave the story of these objects. There's an interview through, like what you have in your crib. One of Harvey's ideas, the pilot of that show is Donald Trump. Now what Harvey wanted to do was have Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton be the pilot of the show.
- [54:14]
B
Okay.
- [54:15]
A
Hillary's people, I guess, wouldn't do it. Donald Trump decided that he would do it. Donald Trump and Harvey Levin's relationship had gone back a little bit like. Like before my time at tmz. If you guys have been reading the news, you know, there are all kinds of relationships that you had to have at TMZ and relationships that he did have. Right? But you need a story. Donald Trump is a big time figure in the press. Those were the types of guys that would know each other. The proximity and to. To Donald Trump, the treats and the gifts that came along with that was enough, at least in my opinion, for Harvey to make decisions that I thought were irresponsible even for tmz. Like, it's one thing about being in a place where, you know, all of this stuff is in scandal and the place is culturally insensitive and all of that stuff, look, you're there, you're there. But when there is an existential threat to what I believe is the social and political fabric of America, like there always is. And there was a going along with this because it made business sense. That was a problem for me. Not that the stuff before hadn't been a problem, but that was like, God damn, not. TMZ is not what I thought it was. It's like, even you. I did not Think that you would go this far. Right. Didn't think that you would go this far. Schultz. Same thing to a degree. I went back this, this weekend and I listened to when Trump was on there. That interview with Donald Trump on flagrant has 9.7 million views. I don't know if it's the biggest interview that they've ever had on Flag. Okay. Interviewing the president. I don't have any problem with that.
- [56:14]
B
Yeah.
- [56:15]
A
If Donald Trump wanted to come on here, we would do it. Yeah, right. The interview itself is an abomination for someone as consequential as Donald Trump. For someone post January 6th that tried the stuff that Donald Trump tried for the threat that Donald Trump posed to democracy, for things that Donald Trump had already been saying on the campaign trail. The way that he was talking about undocumented people, all of that stuff, the seriousness of who he is and the moment that we were in is not at all addressed in that interview. That is a softball caked out bullshit interview. It is. Now here's the deal. Every interview that Donald Trump did with a guy like that, that is what came of it. Aiden Ross interview, I went back and watched it. Like Joe Rogan interview, I went back and watched it. The reason being is that Donald Trump wouldn't do an interview. I don't know anything about this, but I bet that there was some sort of coordination about what it was okay to talk to him about before he went on there. He wouldn't do an interview for an hour and a half or two hours that didn't do anything other than launder who he was. He wouldn't do that interview. He wouldn't do it. The reason why even in the, the flagrant interview, he talks about the, you know, all different types of press that he doesn't like. Calls him deface the nation. We're talking about Face the Nation. That is because those people, at least to a degree to maintain their journalistic integrity, have to hold Donald Trump accountable. They have to ask him about things that he might have said. They have to get into it. There's some parts in the flagrant interview where Andrew talks about how he doesn't believe that undocumented people are the scourge of the earth. There are other parts where he says, America is a great country. It's always is a great country. But I mean, the questions in there is like, do you feel like Roe versus Wade, they got rid of it too quick now that Baron's going to be single like Donald Trump as a father. All of this stuff, it's Without a doubt. Without a doubt. A fantastic interview for someone who had dramatic ideas on how to change American society, on how to realign American society around what he wanted to look like. He wanted to look like. And it is not met with any seriousness at all. The reason why you would do an interview like that, which Flagrant doesn't do, because you can watch Pete Buttigieg on Flagrant. You can watch Zora Momdani on Flagrant. They're going to have their fun, but they also are going to talk about things that center around these people's policies, their beliefs, and how they think that the world should work. They're going to interrogate that with these people. They do it all the time. The reason why you don't you do the interview with Donald Trump and you don't do that with him is because the interview is good for business.
- [59:36]
B
Sure.
- [59:37]
A
It makes you a bigger podcast. It makes you a more serious podcast. It changes the way people look at you. Another thing about that, from what I understand and know, Kamala Harris was offered the chance to go and sit down with Flagrant. She did not do it. I think that Mark Cuban, as a surrogate or a spokesperson for the Kamala Harris campaign, ended up doing that. Right. I think that Mark Cuban ended up doing. I wish he would have gone. Yeah, I do wish she would have gone. I. I wish he would have gone. My overall point saying all of this is if this stuff is transactional. Mm. Is if this stuff is not based in any principle whatsoever. If this stuff is just about what you can get from doing something. We're. All right. Matt Bellany's on. Bring Matt in. We gotta talk to you guys about something real quick because Melania just dropped. I saw an interesting tweet from Matt. Matt Bellany is. He does the town podcast here on the Ringer. Gives you the ins and outs of Hollywood. You know who's on that podcast with Matt, produces that? Craig Horobick. You know Craig?
- [60:48]
B
No.
- [60:48]
A
You don't give a fuck about him. Matt's on the show. Matt.
- [60:52]
D
How dare she? How dare she say that about Craig.
- [60:54]
A
Craig.
- [60:55]
B
Horrible. Matt, did you hear those words come out of my mouth? Absolutely not. Hi, Matt. Thank you for joining higher learning.
- [61:01]
D
No problem.
- [61:02]
A
All right. I know this is the busy season for you. It is award season, but we want to talk about Melania here. Now. We land based at the movie and talked a lot of shit. It seems as if Melania over performed some projections for it. It was projected around 5. It looks like it came in around 8.
- [61:25]
D
What are we, 7? 7. It was. It was adjusted down.
- [61:29]
A
It was adjusted down. Okay, Matt, I saw a tweet from you and I speak baloney. Okay, I speak. Okay. Did I read a tweet from you in the correct way that you're maybe calling a little on the validity of the audience turnout from Melania, or is that wishful thinking from me? It seemed like you pointed to a couple places where it did well and said that maybe there was something else going on. Going.
- [61:58]
D
Okay, you're. You're reading a little bit into it because I don't have proof. But what I do have is that this movie performed very unusually and that could be a legitimate response to the movie. Obviously, it's going to perform better in red state areas than it is in blue state areas. It overperformed amongst the national theater chains. There's three big theater chains that account for more than half of the theaters in this country. Amc, Regal, and Cinemark. It far overperformed in Regal Cinemas than it did in amc, which is traditionally the leader. Which could suggest that maybe there was some block buying of tickets with the Regal chain. But it also note that the Regal chain tends to have theaters in redder areas. Places like Florida, places like Orange County, California, rural areas. AMC is much more of a inner city, kind of big city theater chain. So that could account for it as well. But what we do know is that Melania performed best in places like Orlando, Florida, West Palm Beach, Maricopa County, Arizona, Dallas, Houston. These are not traditionally the places where movies perform best. But this is not the typical movie.
- [63:24]
B
Yeah. So is it considered a success because it did better? I know, like before people were like, it's gonna be 1.5 million. So then it hits 7 million. They're, they're saying, and I don't know if this is true, you're the expert in this, that it's the highest grossing documentary in like this decade or something. So in business terms, in business terms, does that deem it a success?
- [63:47]
D
Okay, so that's a very complicated question because, yes, if you take out concert docs like Beyonce and Taylor Swift, yes, it is the best performing documentary in a decade. So great win for them. But this movie was not made or promoted like a typical documentary. First of all, Amazon paid $40 million for the rights to make this movie and a subsequent docu series as they're going to release about Melania. So that is far more than most documentaries cost. Most documentaries cost less than 5 million. And if that. So that's first part, second part is Amazon committed $35 million to market and release this movie, which is far beyond what a typical documentary will get. Something like the RBG movie that came out a few years ago that got like less than $10 million in releasing costs, might have even been less than 5. So do you consider $7 million opening a success when the marketing budget was more like a typical mid budget thriller or even a more IP driven movie? I think you have to consider those factors when you consider this movie and I would say that it's not a huge success with those financials attached to it.
- [65:09]
A
Is there a possibility that there was press on the projections on Melania that then activated the conservative zeitgeist in America and they went, we have to go see this movie?
- [65:24]
D
Yeah, I think there were a number of things that were both timed and not timed that helped this movie. First of all, they scheduled the premiere on Thursday that it came out out so that everyone would see it and be like, oh, if I like Donald Trump and Melania then I'm going to go to this movie. So that, you know, that's a typical strategy when you have a movie that you want the premiere to promote it. Secondly, a lot of those headlines that came out that week about how poorly the film was pre selling, I think that does motivate people to buy tickets. And we saw on the data, we saw a surge on Wednesday and Thursday of pre sales likely because of those headlines and also because Donald Trump was promoting it as well. And a lot of people take their cues from Donald Trump.
- [66:14]
B
I, I didn't really see anything on social media. It's probably my algorithm. But I'm curious if there was like maybe just this buying up of seats where like did you see anything of empty theaters or like, you know, there.
- [66:27]
D
Was a lot of anecdote, a lot of anecdotal evidence about that. Nothing totally solid. I saw some theaters in Florida that all the theaters were bought up except for two seats in every theater during a day, which is somewhat suspicious. It means that someone maybe was buying all of them except two to keep them open in case somebody wanted to buy real tickets. That's totally anecdotal, not evidence of any kind of conspiracy about this. But this often happens with these faith based movies. This is not unique. Obama's America or Sound of Freedom or some of these movies that are specifically targeted towards a conservative faith based audience. They will buy up a bunch of seats and give them to church groups or give them to senior citizens or things like that to try to get out the vote. And there was this whole thing with Sound of Freedom where if you saw the movie and liked it, you were supposed to pay it forward and buy tickets for other people to see it. Now, I don't know that that happened to a meaningful extent here, but we saw the demos on the movie and the demos were pretty striking. 72% of the audience was 55 years and older. So this movie was skewing way older. It was skewing way more female. More than 70% of the audience was female. So older white women were driving this. We have the race breakdown as well. 75% of the audience is white, 11% Hispanic, 5% Asian, 2% African American and 8% other.
- [68:04]
A
Wow.
- [68:05]
D
Not a lot of black people seeing this movie.
- [68:07]
A
Yeah, not a lot of. We're not going out to see that man. Shout out to us.
- [68:10]
B
Sticking together.
- [68:10]
A
So. So there's been a lot of talk about the somewhat unusual business behind the movie when we're talking about the cost of the film. And you talked about that a little bit, whether or not this was essentially a bribe from Jeff Bezos and Amazon to the Trump administration to get on their good side. Your thoughts on that?
- [68:36]
D
Well, here's what we know. We know that the Amazon bid was way higher than any of the other bidders for this movie. Disney was interested. I believe one other company was interested. I forget which one. Amazon's bid was far higher. Now, they would argue that regardless of what this movie does in theaters, it's going to be a high performer on Prime Video. And Amazon, you know, they want hits and this will be a performer for them. We have not seen numbers. It's not going to hit the service for a few weeks.
- [69:08]
C
Weeks.
- [69:09]
D
But they would argue at least that they are going to get value out of this. I personally think $40 million is a outrageous amount to pay for a documentary like this, even a vanity piece, even the top people, which are usually music stars like Billie Eilish, got it was reported, I believe, $30 million out of Apple for her movie. And that was considered like the high mark for these kinds of documentaries. And that those are the kinds of things that her fans will all show up and watch it. And that's a big win for Apple Music. This one was even more expensive than that and is not, you know, this was. This is not something that is going to have a huge lifespan. I don't believe there's going to be a lot of looky loos that go to the service to watch it. But this is not something that's going to have Value for a long time, especially since it's so timely. It's based on 20 days around the inauguration, and the news cycle is sort of already moved past that. But you know what? Amazon did, what they did. It's no secret. They wanna get in good with the president. All of these media companies are doing things like this. Disney paid off a settlement over ABC News. Paramount has paid off to settle the CBS News 60 Minutes litigation. They're all doing it. Amazon's just doing it in the form of documentary.
- [70:30]
B
What's the docu series that you mentioned? You said that there's an accompanying docu series. Amazon's doing it. What on earth could it be about? Because everything I'm reading about this Melania movie, it's like they say, the camera's just following her, walking. She's walking more than she's talking in this movie.
- [70:46]
D
Great question. We don't know what that is, but it's coming. They have said from the beginning that this is not just a payoff for one movie. They're getting more out of this. Don't know what that's going to feature. Whether, you know, Trump or Baron Trump or any of the other relatives are going to be in it. I have not actually seen Melania yet, but apparently the other Trumps are not featured. Donald's family are not featured in it. I was. I've been told that I am in it briefly. They discussed me emailing them for comment about the $40 million price tag. I have not seen it to verify that, but I've been getting texts all weekend about it.
- [71:27]
A
You know, over at Skydance, slash Paramount, slash cbs. All that stuff. A lot of talk about how the politics of the administration are at a crossroads with media itself. About Barry Weiss and the takeover over at cbs, about the Ellison family and how they were able to get Paramount and all of that. How effective do you feel like the Trump administration is being at subjugating and capturing these gigantic media companies to act in the way that he wants them to act? It seems as if they're having some success on those fronts.
- [72:08]
D
Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, Trump is absolutely winning his war on the media. And right now the Ellisons are trying to buy cnn. So if the Ellisons get CNN and do to CNN what they have done to CBS News and put in this, you know, ombudsman that's more conservative, put in someone like Barry Weiss who is going to try to, you know, move the channel more. Right. Then that's a big win FOR TRUMP Because CNN's been one of his nemeses from the beginning, you know, other media companies as well. I feel like there's a chill at these big media companies in what they are willing to do against Trump because they know that he's going to weaponize all the elements of government against them. And look what happened to ABC with the Jimmy Kimmel mess where the FCC was threatening, or at least we believe they were threatening to go after their license over some jokes and comments that Kimmel made about Charlie Kirk. And that turned into a whole thing where they suspended Kimmel and they, they ended up having to bring him back and it became a real scandal for the company. And that's just something that would never have taken place even five years ago, even under the first Trump administration. He's so aggressive in this stuff in the second term that these media companies have taken notice.
- [73:32]
B
I have to talk about Brett Ratner because I feel like we're not putting enough attention on him directing this movie. You know, he made news this weekend not just for directing this movie, but for also being in the Epstein files, photographed and all.
- [73:45]
D
Great timing there.
- [73:47]
B
Perfect, perfect. What does his involvement signal with just being a part of this movie and signal with the film and then also with Hollywood and controversial, I guess, directors. Does it, do you think that this means that this is a way for him to get back, do you think? I mean, or is it just like a one off and, you know, we'll see and we kind of talked about the last episode, but a one off with maybe Rush Hour 4? Like, what does this say in general, just about this type of director and their relationship with Hollywood?
- [74:18]
D
I would not say that within Hollywood. Brett Ratner is back. I mean, he has effectively leveraged this relationship with the Trumps. He has connections via people that are in his circle. They have a shared interest in Israel. The Trumps have gravitated towards people that have been, quote, unquote, canceled. They see it as a way to kind of stick a finger in the eye of the liberal media by embracing some of these people. This movie, I think it doing okay and not totally flopping certainly doesn't hurt him. And he leveraged those relationships to get Trump to pressure Paramount to Release Rush Hour 4. And that was the big impediment to getting that movie made. The way it works is Warner Brothers let the property be shopped to other studios. But the caveat was that they needed a release in 3,000 theaters in order to okay that this movie could be made by another entity. Paramount's giving them those 3,000 theaters, which is Triggering the financing for the movie, which is triggering Ratner's ability to get it made. So. So this whole pressure campaign from the Trumps are directly benefiting Brett Ratner on this movie. Does it mean that he's going to get another studio assignment? No. If Rush Hour 4 comes out and it's amazing and does 500 million at the box office, will it be back? Maybe. Hollywood tends to respond to money, but do we think that Rush Hour 4 is going to gross $500 million? I, I'm, I'm, you know, not prepared to predict that.
- [76:00]
A
Well, I'll tell you this and I'll ask you this about Brett and because I think that's a good question and about the movie. It, the movie itself will be in a really precarious situation if the project of the film is seen as a Trump propaganda piece. So just so we know, so our.
- [76:19]
D
Audience, but I don't think it is.
- [76:20]
A
Okay.
- [76:21]
D
I mean, I know I talked to someone who's read the script. It doesn't have anything to do with politics. It's, you know, there is some, some. There's a trafficking storyline. I think they are planning to shoot in Africa a little bit. They are planning to shoot in Saudi Arabia, which brings up a whole separate set of issues. The financing is coming from outside the country, I am told mostly. But it's not like this is a piece of Trump propaganda. Who knows, maybe Donald Trump will ask to be in the movie, which would politicize it even more. But this is a $100 million action movie bringing back Chris Tucker and Jackie Chan and they, they hope it will be an all audience blockbuster type movie. Not sure. It's been 17 years in a while.
- [77:03]
A
Last one, I guess this was my question. Do you think that, you know, because I'm assuming Brett Ratner is back as director. He's certainly back. Is. It's one of his properties. Okay. Do you think that this film could be tricky for Chris Tucker and Jackie Chan who are going to, to a lot of people be seen as part of favor doing for Donald Trump? Do movie audiences look at stuff like that? On the whole, let's get out of the political Rachel Van bubble. Do you think people in other places that might be spiritually against Trump are gonna go, I can't see Rush Hour 4 because the President wanted this movie. Brett Ratner's on it. Is that at all part of the calculation here in your opinion?
- [77:56]
D
I, I think it is a factor and it's important to note that neither Jackie Chan or Chris Tucker has a signed deal to return to this movie. They are talking to them. I have reported that. But there's two issues here. First, the Ratner issue. I mean, don't forget this is a guy that has been credibly accused of some pretty horrible behavior with women. He's denied a lot of that. And second, there's the Trump issue, because maybe you would be perceived as like furthering the Trump agenda because he wants this made. I think within Hollywood, the Ratner issue is a bigger issue because a lot of these canceled directors have not been able to get movies off the ground because the stars won't work with them. They don't want, you know, Woody Allen's not getting a huge cast like he used to because he has effectively been canceled in this country. He's working overseas. He's doing mostly overseas actors. And I think Brad Ratner does fall into that category. However, this is the only big franchise that Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker have. And if they want to revive it, this is sort of what they need to swallow and, you know, be okay with. And they do have a personal relationship with him. I've. Everything I've heard is that it's a good relationship and, you know, maybe they're okay with it.
- [79:17]
B
I know I liked. Would you say we're in our bubble? I feel like most and this is why I keep bringing up Brett Ratner. I don't think most people realize who he is as a director, what his past is one that he was directing Melania's movie and then what the past is with it. And I think that the same thing, you'll have people that'll be so excited about the Rush Rush Hour coming back that they'll look past that and think that those are two separate things just for the entertainment value of it.
- [79:45]
D
Or they might not even know or care, you know. Yeah, I'm not a public facing person. It's much different when someone's a star and you have to look at them and you have to endorse them by going to the movie and it's, you know, someone behind the scenes. Most people don't even know who the director of movies are.
- [80:04]
B
That's me. That would be me.
- [80:06]
A
Last question. Appreciate the time. You guys gotta listen to the Town, one of my favorite pods and then go watch the studio on. On Apple.
- [80:15]
D
Okay, Matt, please don't.
- [80:17]
A
Matt figures into the studio on. On Apple. Big part. Like it's not. They just. They brought you back and you're in there a couple of times. But then in that episode you're like, One of the main plot points in the show. Like you.
- [80:31]
C
You.
- [80:31]
D
I'm the villain.
- [80:32]
A
Yeah, you're the villain of the show.
- [80:33]
D
All right, I know.
- [80:34]
A
Let's talk about this. Sinners. 16 Academy War, Academy Award nominations. Bellany, Matt, the town.
- [80:44]
D
Not happening. It's not happening. I'm sorry.
- [80:45]
A
How many do you think Sinners will win, Matt? How many?
- [80:49]
D
Oh, you want me to give you a number?
- [80:50]
A
Give me, give me, give me. Like a. Not like. I. You know what?
- [80:54]
D
I can't go down the full list, but I don't think it will win picture.
- [80:59]
A
Okay.
- [80:59]
D
I don't think it will win director. I don't think it will win any of the. Above the, you know, the, the acting awards. I do think it will win original screenplay for Ryan Coogler, which is a great Oscar to win. Typically, if you go back and look, some of the best movies of the past 30 years did not win best picture, but one original screenplay. You know, if you remember. Get out. One original screenplay.
- [81:26]
A
Right.
- [81:26]
D
If you remember Pulp Fiction.
- [81:27]
A
Black, Black Klansman, that was adapted, but yeah, Black Klansman.
- [81:31]
D
Black Klansman, one adapted.
- [81:32]
A
Right.
- [81:33]
D
So no shame there. And it'll be a great Oscar for Coogler, but I think that the. The one battle after another cohort is going to be stronger. And that I think is because the Academy is so international now. Even if you look at the box office for Sinners, Sinners was a gigantic hit in this country, far less so overseas. And the politics and the cultural stuff in the movie just plays way better to American audiences who are much more familiar with the history of black Americans. And I think that because the Academy is so much more international, it will favor that one battle after another over. That's my personal choice. But. But it could win a number of. Below the line. Certainly going to win score for Ludwig Goransson. He's won all the precursor awards. I think it could win some production design and some of the. More costume design, some of those kinds of Oscars for the work that's been done there. Ruth Carter is a big name within the Academy. She's the costume designer on Sinners and she won for Black Panther, so I could see her winning again. So it's not going to go home empty handed, but I think, I think it's going to lose the big ones to one battle.
- [82:49]
A
Maybe cinematography.
- [82:50]
D
Sure.
- [82:51]
A
Like Autumn, we've had our own. Okay. Before that.
- [82:56]
D
That sequence at the end of one battle with the road, like that is a very showy cinematography sequence.
- [83:03]
A
It's totally overrated. Okay, listen. Okay, okay. Before you go, just do one thing for me. Explain above the line, below the line to people. It's jargon that we understand, but some of our audience might not understand what you mean.
- [83:15]
D
It's very simple. It's the. The guilds, the unions that are for actors, directors and writers, the people who typically are above the line. The line is the title of the movie on a poster. When you see above the line, that's those types of talent. Below the line is the people that you don't see on a movie, like the production designer, the, you know, all the craftsmen and women that work on these movies. And, you know, producers are not a union, but. But they often are considered above the line as well. And it's just a denotation within the industry that has sort of seeped into the business. For instance, you know, for tax credit purposes on movies, you're not allowed in California to deduct above the line expenses, which are primarily the actors and directors. And that's because they don't want to be seen as subsidizing Tom Cruise's salary.
- [84:11]
C
Right.
- [84:11]
D
So it's more for the production costs and below the line expenses. But it's just a term of art that's used within the industry.
- [84:18]
A
Right. Basically any you could be get famous for doing is above.
- [84:24]
D
Yeah. Unless you're like the number one. Let's do like John Williams. John Williams, he's below the line, but he's famous.
- [84:31]
A
Ludwig Hans Zimmer, all of those people like that. Yeah.
- [84:34]
D
Yes. Or even someone like Ruth Carter. Ruth. Ruth Carter's pretty famous.
- [84:37]
A
She's pretty famous. Yeah, she's pretty famous. Matt, the town. Three times a week.
- [84:42]
D
Three times a week, man. We're on the treadmill that three times a week.
- [84:45]
A
Craig Coral, Big Rachel doesn't know who he is. He's. He's. He's a producer of the Town. Matt Bellany, thank you for joining us on Higher Learning.
- [84:53]
D
Thanks for having me.
- [84:54]
A
No problem. Talk about something. I want you guys to listen to something. All right. Uncle Van's got to admonish you guys a little bit.
- [85:03]
B
Who you talking to?
- [85:04]
A
Just talking to the people in and of itself. Okay. I have to. Uncle Van has to admonish you guys a little bit. Now look at what they did. Melania coming out and being a success was important to them. Now maybe they bought a whole bunch of tickets and cooked the books on Melania. Could happen.
- [85:29]
B
We'll know by the second weekend.
- [85:30]
A
We'll know. It's gonna drop off on the second weekend. Fat rat.
- [85:38]
B
One million.
- [85:40]
A
It's gonna drop off. Okay, maybe it doesn't. Who knows? We've had conversations before on the pod about the fact that when movies come out. Not just movies, but other things when they come out and they are specifically meaningful to you for a social reason. Even when we go back to Buzz Lightyear, the movie where they showed the same sex kiss. Or movies that deal in queer culture, queer themes. Movies that deal in black culture, black themes. Sinners. Great job. Everybody showed out. Big, splashy, showy movie. Michael B. Jordan, Ryan Coogler. Vampires, dancing. Hailee Steinfeld, Darryl or Lindo. That's different. There's a movie coming out that my homeboys made called Ricky.
- [86:36]
B
Okay?
- [86:36]
A
And I'm gonna tell everybody I need to go see this movie. My man Sterling produced this film. It's about stuff, okay? It's about stuff. Recidivism, prison, all of that stuff. Ricky's coming out. All right? Besides that, I've said before that it's very important to be animated about these films succeeding. Back in the day Red Tails came out. I never saw Red Tails in the theater.
- [87:05]
B
Me neither.
- [87:06]
A
I went to see Underworld.
- [87:08]
B
Oh.
- [87:09]
A
But I bought two tickets to Red Tails. Why did I buy two tickets? I saw Red Tails later on. Why did I buy two tickets?
- [87:15]
B
To support.
- [87:16]
A
It's important. Now, I'm not saying that it's you guys social duty to spend money on stuff that is going. That is socially. Not saying that. That it's. I'm not saying it's your social duty because money. Not everybody has disposable income to buy tickets for a movie they're not going to see. Right. All right? And what you should do is go see the movie and experience the art anyway. Not everybody has that. But what I am saying is when these movies come out, if they don't do well, they not gonna make them. And I know that you guys feel like, oh, my God, they should make them all anyway, no matter what. Disney should double down, come back, do it again because it's the right thing to do. That's just not how it works. And I really want you guys to understand that if it's at all possible. I'm not telling you to be an activist every single moment in your life. But if it's at all possible to support something that is under particular attack from the right, like that Buzz Lightyear joint was. Yeah, go out and see it if you can. Because what they say after is, go woke, go broke. And then the ticket sales tell the story of that particular issue. And the corporation, which is a Soulless behemoth that is made to feed itself will learn the lesson that the shit that you care about, audiences don't want to see it.
- [88:40]
B
Yeah.
- [88:41]
A
Whether that's fair or not.
- [88:43]
B
No, no, no, it's true. It's true. Obviously, I don't. I. You know that as well. Versus movies with you. But another movie we talk about that we haven't in a while that ended up getting a sequel because people came out and they went out and saw it and they supported it. And it was one of those movies that you talked about where it's like, we need more movies like this where you can just bounce around and do nothing. Like, you know, you. It's just. It's just following you throughout your day. People being people is one of them days. And it has a sequel now.
- [89:10]
A
Has a sequel.
- [89:10]
B
And not as a sequel because people went out, supported it. It did well, guarantee, if they hadn't. We wouldn't guarantee. I mean, as fantastic as Sinners is, I don't think if it had the box office success that we. It would be sitting here breaking records with 16 nominations. They couldn't deny it because of course, it was a masterpiece. But they couldn't also deny the success that it had in the box office because at the end of the day, it's a business.
- [89:37]
A
It's about the money, and this is about everything. Just try it. Try the little black business, right? Ruby Jeans juicery. They held me down during the pandemic. Try it. Laney Smith, actively black. Try it. Just try it. It. Just see if you can try it, you know, if you can. Not all of you, but some of you. Because they gonna. They gonna support. They. Yeah, they gonna support they. They gonna make sure that they. They don't wanna compel the world from decency standpoint. They want to say, look, we won. Right? So sometimes we have to do that. I was one. I have been waiting for the Paul Robeson era, like for the. The. The talk. The. How can I say? I've been waiting for there to be intellectual and cultural investigation on the whole of this man for a while and of all the figures. Howard Bryant joins us today on. On Higher Learning. And we're just gonna, like. I'm just gonna express this feeling of all the figures that have been lost to time in a really interesting way. My father was obsessed with this man. Like, obsessed with him. My father is the furthest thing. Was. Should I say the furthest thing from a socialist that you could ever. He was obsessed with what happened to him. And yet in no Real way. Has there been the big splashy biopic, the time where we talk about the deep, deep, penetrating documentary? I've watched a couple of them. But, like, why do you think that is and what made you want to dive into this story and talk about this a little bit?
- [91:43]
C
Yeah. Well, first of all, thanks for having me on. Love your show. Love all of what y' all do. We were just talking earlier about that. I disagree immediately with the very first thing that you just said in terms of being lost to history. I think it answers its own question. He wasn't lost to history. He was erased from history. This is active. That's the thing that made me real interested in him, was there are people who get lost to time. I mean, time goes on. Some people get replaced by other things. Right. I mean, we talk about Michael Jordan, but we don't talk about Dr. J that much anymore. And if you were There, you know, Dr. J deserves way more than he gets. But Paul Robeson, this was an active destruction. Active. And I think one of the reasons why we are at where we're at, even though this is the 50th anniversary of his death, is because so much of the black establishment wanted nothing to do with him. If the black establishment doesn't want anything to do with him, then the white establishment is going to follow. And I think that when you go back and look at the relationship that Robeson had and Du Bois as well, but especially Robeson had with the NAACP and with the Urban League and with the fact that, you know, the, the, the distancing, the isolation, I think that it made it really, really clear that if he didn't, if he wasn't going to be reclaimed by black people, he wasn't going to be reclaimed at all. And I was talking to Spike, you know, Spike Lee about this, and I told Spike, I said, you are the one. In my opinion, you and Chuck D are the ones most responsible for the elevation of Malcolm X. When I was in college, Malcolm X was a villain. And that was only in the 80s. Malcolm X hadn't been. I said, if it wasn't for the music and if it wasn't for the movie and the merch and the hats and the ability of a new generation to reclaim him, then he still would have been framed by white America. And it wasn't until that movie, and it wasn't until that period, the Afrocentric music and the hip hop movement, where he got reclaimed by us. And now he is a legend to everybody. And that hasn't happened for Robeson. He never got that.
- [94:00]
A
The book is Kings and Pawns. Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America. Just wanted to make sure it's just been released. How o' Brien has joined us. Just wanted to say that.
- [94:08]
B
No, yeah. My question is about the title. And it's so interesting you bring up Malcolm X because it reminds me of. We've had Dr. Peniel Joseph on the show and the Sword and the Shield and how we were taught a certain way about these two public figures. But he talks about them in another way, gives more background, and then shows a link between them, which is what you're doing in this book with Kings and Pawns. If you could talk about the choice of that title and then how both of these men kind of function as kings in American culture, but also as pawns with the government.
- [94:42]
A
Yeah.
- [94:43]
C
Well, the first thing is I'm a big chess fan. I'm a big chess player. That was the first thing is I couldn't help but think about that metaphor while I was working on it. 1943, Paul Robeson is the most famous black man in America. We talk about Jackie Robinson integrating baseball in 1947, Paul. Paul Robeson integrates Broadway in October of 43. Shakespeare performances of Othello had always been with white actors in blackface until Robeson in the United States. And yet the double V campaign is also taking place in 1943, where the black press is like, we're not going to do the way we did it in World War I, which is we suppress our pursuit of black rights during the war effort. Now we're going to do both double V campaign, victory at home, victory abroad. So we're going to go out there and we're going to go fight for the country, but we're also going to fight for ourselves. So they are boycotting different establishments. And baseball's next. Baseball hasn't integrated. There hasn't been a black player since Moses fleetwood Walker in 1884. And the black press is coming for baseball. And so baseball, knowing that this is happening, who do they go and get to shield themselves from black protest? Paul Robeson. So Robeson is actually now, in a lot of ways, being manipulated. He's the first pawn to, you know. So he's actually, in a lot of ways, pitted against the black press, even though they have the same aims. And during that meeting, Robeson says, do not pit me against my brothers. Here we are on the same page. Then we get to 1949, Paris Peace Conference. In April 49, Robeson gives a speech where essentially he's the precursor to Muhammad Ali, where he says, look, I don't have a problem with the Soviet Union. We as black people don't have a problem with the Soviet Union. Our problem is right here, which is no different than what Ali is saying about the Viet Cong 20 years later in Vietnam. But after he says that and the Associated Press misquotes him and it comes out as it's unthinkable that. That any negro would fight against the Soviet Union. Now we do what we always do, and what do we. You see it here. Any black man who's going to criticize another black man in public is gonna have a job for life. So what do they do? They go and find Jackie Robinson to testify against Robeson. So now you've got Jackie in a place he didn't even want to be. He didn't want to testify. This was not something he wanted to do. But he also felt a responsibility. And it's a real interesting thing because I feel the same thing is happening today. There's a great conversation taking place in the black community right now about whether or not this moment is ours. Like, you guys voted for Donald Trump not once, but twice. We held up our end. This isn't our fight. Let's sit this one out. This was a similar conversation taking place in the late 40s, but Jackie took a different position. Jackie's like, no, this is mine too. Right? I got a piece of this. We have a say in this. And so. And there were a lot of people telling Jackie, why would you testify in front of the most notorious government body in history against another black man? And Jackie's position was that we have a say in this. And he was also very concerned as well as he said that he felt. And this is where the NAACP abandoned Robeson, that if we get associated with communism, if we get associated with the Soviet Union and all that Cold War stuff, then the white allies we have now are going to abandon us. So we have to do something. And so Jackie is in this position where he is in service of segregationists who wouldn't shake his hand. And then, of course, you get Malcolm X, who was like, no, the real pawn isn't Jackie, and the real pawn isn't Robeson. The real pawn is usually the real pun is us thinking that we're going to get an affection, a rights, a citizenship that's never coming. So to me, the title was all of the things. It was Robeson being used. People thought he was being used by the Soviet Union. It was Jackie being used by these Segregationists, it was us constantly or the NAACP going after Robeson. And then five years later, when you get to Brown versus Board of Education and the Civil Rights movement, these very same people who isolated Jackie, I'm sorry, who isolated Paul, are now being called communists. And then of course, the king's piece of the title is these are our giants. These are the people who are the best of what we've been. And it really is a Harry Belafonte line where he always referred to Paul Robeson as one of our kings. So that's really where the title comes from.
- [99:34]
A
Robson's life and his accomplishments are astounding, unbelievable. There, there's no way to, there's no way to put it other than that when you look at every step of the way in his life, his athletic achievements, his scholastic achievements, his achievements in entertainment, he is, it's, it baffles your mind to see just how much talent was in one man. He goes on to kind of break the mold in every way that that one person could. I, I want to stick on one part of this. Is it possible that ropes and socialism, the fact that he had an affection for the Soviet Union and whatever he saw as society inside of it being the fact that he, although the communist term was thrown at him and, and very publicly in the interview where he had to correct a reporter says, hey, you're saying that, not me. But he was an avowed socialist. He did have a political view that was at cross purposes with the American capitalist movement at that time. That one reason why he might have been erased from history. He doesn't fit the mold of an American hero in the same way that Jackie Robinson or some of the other ones might that achieve so much inside of what Americans consider to be safe political and economic views.
- [101:04]
C
All the above. 100%. I mean, and that is one of the questions that I wanted to get at in the book as well and didn't get anywhere near as deep as I wanted to. But once again, this idea that democracy and capitalism are linked, they're not there. It's just an economic system. Robeson was 100% anti capitalist. The stuff that Robeson was talking about back then, we talk about now, he used the same phrasing in the 1930s, the 99% against the 1%. He was a person who was fighting for universal healthcare. He and Henry Wallace back in the 30s and 40s. And so there's no question he's not Jim Brown. Empowerment zones, black capitalism, completely anti capitalist, very much clearly anti capitalist and was doing the numbers there's no way that we're going to be able to compete with the amount of wealth that we've already lost. And he was very, very clear. Robeson was very, very clear about this idea that just because I made it doesn't mean we're good. We're not good. He would say constantly, I have cousins and family members who can neither read nor write, so what good is my success? Which runs very counter to the way that we look at the world today. We've got a handful of black celebrities who are doing extremely well, Black professional few of us who are doing really, really well. And therefore, that's proof that it's all good. And Robeson was exactly the opposite of that.
- [102:34]
B
For people who may be reading the book or maybe listening to the podcast, and Robeson may be a lesser known figure to them, how do you want audiences to maybe reimagine his legacy? Or maybe the word isn't reimagined. Since you said it's been more of an erasure, how do you want them to know his legacy?
- [102:51]
C
Yeah, I think whenever you're working on a project, the very first thing that you're really thinking about is how much does the reader know? Am I giving them something that they don't know? Are they reading this, going, I already know this, I already know this. Give me something new. Every time somebody said to me, what are you working on? And I said, I'm doing a book on Jackie Robinson, Paul Robeson in the Cold War. People were like, who's Paul Robeson? So the very first thing for me was just knowledge of self, knowledge of who this person was. And as Van was saying, this man is. He's not just a scholar, a concert singer, opera singer, stage actor, Hollywood actor, one of the greatest college football players of all time. He played in the NFL. He played in the NFL and also was at Columbia Law as well. I mean, so all of the above. And I think I want people to think about that in terms of his accomplishment and who he was. But I really wanted people also to think about, how does it happen that somebody that important could be that erased? And also for us to take it upon ourselves to not let our own kings be erased and our queens be erased. That. Take it upon yourself to find out more about who these people are.
- [104:17]
B
Can I just follow up really quickly to the last part of what you said? I was gonna say, do you think that we as a culture bear some responsibility?
- [104:26]
C
Of course.
- [104:27]
B
Okay.
- [104:28]
C
Always. I mean, always. I mean, think. I mean, I always think about this, especially now. We're under assault right now. I am so happy that y' all have your podcast that you do what you do. We are under assault. Our education system is under assault. We are othered in our own country in terms of what is being taught. Look at the laws down in Florida about not teaching black history, about erasing black books, about looking even what's happening in Philly in terms of taking down the slavery exhibit at the Liberty Bell and Independence Mall, all of these things. This is an attack. If we are not going to educate ourselves, they're not going to educate us. They didn't educate us anyway. I mean, thinking about how much did I actually learn about any of this in school? I was embarrassed when I went down to Philly when I was in college, when I went to temple, because Robeson had only been dead 10 years. And in Philly, that's a huge name. And so his name existed. But I'm like, just like I knew who he was. I didn't know what he was, didn't know what happened. And so absolutely, the place where we're in right now could not be more dire in terms of how we are, where we're positioned and what we're going to be able to say in this culture. So, yeah, it's on us.
- [105:48]
A
Robson's father was a slave. Guys, I'll say again, Robeson's father was a former enslaved person. Okay. That then raises a son that goes on to achieve all of these things, to become a superstar in American culture. But then by the end of his life. I want to talk a little bit about Jackie Robinson and the intersection here in a second. But by the end of his life, almost is driven to a point of mental instability by the attacks on his character. Do you see through lines to current figures in American culture, black American culture, non stop critiques and attacks that either drive them away from the fight or destabilize them mentally, emotionally and financially to where they're no longer a part of the conversation.
- [106:47]
C
Sure. It's a continuum and it's been happening. It happened before Robeson, it happened during, it happened after. And one of my favorite characters in the book is W.E.B. du Bois, who is, you could make the argument he's the greatest scholar that we've produced in terms of his scope. And also the thing that I love about him in this book and just in his life is if you are born during the right time, incredible things happen. He was born in 1868, three years after the Civil War. He's alive. For Robert E. Lee, he's alive for he's alive. He overlaps as an adult with Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, Booker T. Washington, William Monroe Trotter, Jackie Robinson, Malcolm X, Muhammad Ali, because he's alive and he lives till he's 95. He dies in 1963, I think a day or two before the march on Washington, and after the government had taken his passport, just like it had taken Robeson's for almost a decade. He moves to Ghana in 58. He never comes back. And when he dies, I mean, to the point about this continuum of destabilization. I mean, what does he say when he dies? I was never a man. I was never an American. I was black in a country that did not want me. And this is the top of what we've produced in terms of accomplishment. And this is what he's saying about his life. So. Absolutely. So one of the things. And Jackie. Same thing. One of the things that I was thinking about, in addition to really wanting to elevate them, was how do you have these people who have done everything that this country has asked us to do and are held up as proof of what you can do and what you can accomplish? How do they, at the end of their lives, find themselves where they were? Where? Jackie Robinson, at the end of his life, pretty much says, when I, you know, I don't salute the American flag, I don't acknowledge it. When I see a car with an American flag on it, I assume the guy behind the wheel is not my friend. I mean, this is the best of what we've produced, and yet this is where they find themselves. So I really wanted to explore that. Yeah.
- [109:01]
B
Jackie Robinson expressed regret about that testimony in front of the committee. Can you talk about how did he. Did you assess his evolution with his political thinking over his life?
- [109:15]
C
Well, I think that one of the questions that I'd had was once again, the embarrassment of not knowing the story as well as I needed to. He was pushed into it by Branch Rickey. Branch Rickey is one of these complicated characters. Branch Rickey is at the meeting in 1943 when Robeson addresses the baseball owners. And when that meeting ends with the black publishers and with Robeson, they want to adjourn the meeting. They don't even want. They're like, okay, we're done. We did our thing. Because the goal wasn't enlightenment or moving toward immigration. The goal was to shut the protest down that was going to be taking place. But one guy in that meeting, Branch Rickey, is like, hey, are we going to talk about the delegation that just came here. So he did the thing, right? He's the complicated conservative, anti communist, anti New Deal guy who did the thing anyway. So how much credit do we give Branch Rickey? And Jackie is placed in this arena because of his loyalty to Branch Rickey. He's not an anti communist. I mean, he's an American. He was the guy my country, right or wrong, the way his wife Rachel, who, by the way, is still alive. Rachel Robinson will be 104 in July. But, yeah, he was there because he felt an obligation to be there. His employer was telling him to be there. He felt he owed Branch Rickey. And so by the end of his life, it was sort of like.
- [110:45]
A
Why.
- [110:45]
C
Did I do this? Because of the lack of progress. And he begins to find out when he testifies against ropes and they're calling him an American hero. Then he's advocating for black rights and baseball. Can't wait to get rid of him. And then he goes and aligns himself with Eisenhower and Nixon and the Republicans because he's a conservative, independent, but conservative. And then he finds out they don't care about civil rights. He's sending telegrams to the White House about what's happening in Birmingham and what's happening in Little Rock, and they're not doing anything. So you can see his evolution. And then. Then you've got a new generation of black protest, the Stokely Carmichaels of the world, the Black Panthers. And they're looking at Jackie going, you're an Uncle Tom. You're the sellout. And he's like, after everything I fought for, I'm the sellout. And so you can see where his evolution is, that I'm doing what you're all asking me to do, and it's just not moving. And yet he remains in the fight. I found him the flattening out of Jackie on this. I actually found him to be even more fascinating because he wasn't the kind of guy who. He didn't have all of the political savvy that he needed because he believed. And then you find out these people don't care about what I care about. But he stayed in the fight, and I had a lot of respect for him for that.
- [112:10]
A
The book is Kings and Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America. Howard Bryant has done just incredible work over the years. I'm going to ask one more question. This cycle. You said something earlier. You said, and I don't want to misquote you, what did you say earlier about being a black man and getting another speaking against other black Men. What did you say?
- [112:37]
C
Yeah, I mean, the, the, the black. Black person who criticizes other black people in public will have a job for life.
- [112:43]
A
Will have a job for life. Okay. So I'm going to rely on the wisdom of somebody who I've admired for a very long time. Right. That's a really interesting argument. A really interesting conversation that we continuously have. The times in which it's appropriate to call somebody out, call somebody in about things that you feel like might be harmful or things you feel like they might be misinformed on, and the times when that dissension is being used as a sword to decapitate a movement.
- [113:28]
C
That's right.
- [113:29]
A
Now we can have all kinds of conversations about what I call the bigger theory, which is if you have a black man that is doing something, the one thing that they always do is go get a bigger. To come and say, don't listen to him. Listen to me. And also go buy this thing. Okay. How do we get out of this? How do we do this in a way that is, to me, uplifting? It's useful. It's not based in dissension or war or likes and clicks. We've, we've had the conversation about, I don't know if it's whoever it is versus whoever else.
- [114:17]
C
Yeah. How do you get out of that?
- [114:18]
A
You have, you, you have to have these talks. But at the same time, it seems as if we're in this eternal, non stop top sense of war with each other and we can't focus on the thing. The issue becomes about Colin Kaepernick vs. Jay Z and not Colin Kaepernick and what he's doing in the NFL or Jay Z and what he's doing with reform or whatever. Like, we keep having these same conversations. We can't get on the same page. What's the elixir to this from you?
- [114:49]
C
Yeah, it's a great, it's a great point. And I think. Well, let's put it this way. There are two points. Point number one, you, especially us now, where media runs very, very quickly. I mean, Internet time is warp speed. Right.
- [115:05]
A
Of course.
- [115:06]
C
How many times do we not talk about things? Jamel and I talk about this all the time about. I have a feeling on this. Jemel Hill.
- [115:13]
A
Who's that?
- [115:14]
C
Exactly. Kind of an anonymous figure.
- [115:19]
A
Yeah, but you know, I'm gonna look into her. You said that. I'm, I'm gonna look into her. I'm, I'm see, I'm gonna see what she's up to.
- [115:26]
C
Yeah, Yeah. I don't remember how to spell her name, but I think she's important.
- [115:30]
A
How you. You said Jamel.
- [115:32]
C
Jamel. Is it Jamil?
- [115:33]
A
Oh, it's Jamel.
- [115:34]
D
Okay.
- [115:34]
A
Yeah. I'm gonna look into exactly. See what she's got.
- [115:36]
C
We talk about this all the time. And I'm like, look, something goes down. Do I feel like writing about this? Do I not feel like writing about this? One of the calculations in deciding not to talk about this is, you know, that whatever you say, they're going to take what you say and twist it and weaponize it against you. So that's a calculation that we are always battling with. Who's going to take your words and turn them into something that they weren't? That's the first thing. But the real thing is, I think the real answer to the question is, who are you in service of? If you're in service of yourself and you have a sense of self and you understand the arena that you're in, not just how you feel, but the arena that you're also operating in, I think those conversations can be had, and I think those conversations can be defended, and I think they can be robust, and I think they can be as hard as they need to be, because they're hard and they need to be had. But like in the case of this book or in the case of some of these other instances that we have today, if you're in service of people and you. And you're being used, that's a totally different thing. You are allowing yourself to be weaponized. And it's a subtle difference, but it is a difference. I mean, I don't feel like I have any problems talking about things that I want to talk about because I'm not in service of anybody. I mean, now does that mean I want to have a conversation about sinners versus one battle after another right now? Maybe not at the moment, but absolutely. But absolutely. I would love to have. Have that call anytime. Let's talk about that. But at the same time, you know that in retrospect, in doing this research, Jackie Robinson was in service of a right wing that wanted nothing to do with black people except to demonize them. In fact, the only reason he was testifying in a hearing that was essentially called communist infiltration of minority groups. So it was essentially a test of black loyalty. Prove to us that you're loyal to your own country. It's a setup. He did it for his reasons. But once again, to me, the bottom line is, before you do and before you say anything, who are you in service of, do you know, are you being used? And if you're not, if you're not sure, silence is an option.
- [118:03]
A
That last one is tough. Rach, you got anything else?
- [118:06]
B
Well, I guess as a follow up, it's like when you look at athletes of today, do you see the legacies of Robinson and Robeson in some of today's players? And if so, like, with who or in what league? Do you see it or is it even possible with what you just said?
- [118:25]
C
Yeah, it's going to be real interesting. It's going to be real interesting to see because post Covid and now Trump 2.0, this is a different environment and it feels different. It's going to be interesting. I'm interesting to see how you guys operate this year. This is the 10th anniversary of Muhammad Ali's death in June. This is the 10th anniversary of Colin Kaepernick taking a knee this August. The question that I asked at the end of my 2018 book about athlete protest and athlete activism, the heritage back in 2018 was what happens when the protester becomes the power? These guys are the power now. And how long can you, how long can you straddle that? How long can you. Are we giving credit to Dwyane Wade for owning a percentage piece of the Utah Jazz or Serena Williams owning a piece of the Miami Dolphins or Shaq when he had a piece of the Sacramento Kings? That's not the same lineage of Paul Robeson, Jackie Robinson and Bill Russell. That's business. That's very, very, very different. And yet we celebrate that as if it is part of the same legacy, when it's not. And so the real question is.
- [119:38]
A
Does.
- [119:39]
C
That, you know, is that tree, has it broken off into something totally different? And I suspect that it has. And the question is going to be, really, how many of these athletes and do we need them? That's the other piece, is that when you go to the 1800s, before Robeson, when you get into Du Bois, the people who are our thinkers, we need more thinkers. Do I need a basketball player telling me where we should be going? I mean, that's the real issue. But we concentrate on them because they're the ones who made it. The black athlete, especially to me, is the most influential, most successful and most visible black employee this country's ever produced that puts a responsibility on them that they really shouldn't have. And so let's find out what we do with it, especially now when black people are. And black journalism especially is under full on assault right now.
- [120:39]
A
Howard Bryant, thank you for joining us on Higher Learning, brother.
- [120:42]
C
Oh, my pleasure. Thank you.
- [120:44]
A
Before we go, I want to play. I want to play this audio for you. This is. Shakari Richardson was arrested. She's driving 100 miles an hour, North Carolina, Orange County.
- [120:51]
D
I would wipe that smile off your face.
- [120:52]
A
I'm Sergeant McDaniels with the Orange County Sheriff's Office.
- [120:54]
D
You're being stopped for dangerous, excessive speeding.
- [120:56]
B
I understand. My tire at the back is like literally 29.
- [121:00]
A
So you're driving at 100. Hold on, hold on. You're driving at 104 miles an hour.
- [121:04]
D
In a 65 mile an hour zone with subpar equipment, flashing people to get out of your lights, out of your Wayne.
- [121:11]
A
Following too close, using every lane to pass everybody.
- [121:14]
D
Cutting me off. Passing a car on the inside, shooting shoulder with their hazard lights on. You're. You're going to jail for dangerous, excessive speeding.
- [121:21]
B
I'm so sorry. I did not mean to do that.
- [121:23]
A
My phone.
- [121:24]
B
I didn't even know my car was speeding.
- [121:26]
A
That's why they give you a speedometer. I totally understand.
- [121:28]
D
I communicate with you.
- [121:29]
B
I really do not want to go to jail.
- [121:31]
A
Most people don't, but you got to think about that before you do the speed.
- [121:35]
D
I need your license, your registration, and your insurance.
- [121:37]
A
All right? So she ends up. She ends up going to jail. What do you think?
- [121:43]
B
Do I think she shouldn't have gone to jail? Is that what you're asking?
- [121:46]
A
I'm just asking. Shakari Richardson is kind of a knucklehead, right?
- [121:49]
B
Well, she's young. She's young. She's got money. She's driving it. She got pulled over with this. Driving an Aston Martin. So it seems like. I'm not excusing it. It seems like she was just like, out just. I mean, at that age. I'm sure that there was a time where I was driving excessively or speeding excessively at a time, too. She got caught, I think. You know what I thought about this?
- [122:15]
A
What?
- [122:16]
B
Yes, she's speeding. Yes, she's wrong. She's pleading, like, please don't take me to jail. Obviously, she's got a lot to lose. This isn't her first time in trouble with the law. Within the last year, she and her boyfriend. She was detained for hours at the airport for an issue with her boyfriend, and he refused to file charges. Then. And with this instance, he was behind her, pulls over when he sees her get pulled over, gets not. Gets into it with the police, but, like, refuses to show his id. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Long story short, he gets Arrested. They search his car. Drug paraphernalia. I think that they need to leave each other alone. That was my takeaway from this. The two of them.
- [123:05]
A
Incredible.
- [123:06]
B
Keep getting in trouble together. They both have so much to lose. They are both extremely talented athletes. I just. We.
- [123:15]
A
Incredible.
- [123:16]
B
As you're preparing, you know, for this summer to race and the next Olympics, I just. You're doing more harm to each other than good. I just. It's just like seeing they keep finding their way to trouble.
- [123:30]
A
Incredible.
- [123:32]
B
I just want the best for them. It doesn't seem together that they're getting the best.
- [123:37]
A
I think it's each other, you know.
- [123:39]
B
But they really do love each other. He was down for her, too. He was like, no, I'm not going to show you my arrest. Why are you pulling her over?
- [123:44]
A
Why are you pulling her over?
- [123:45]
B
I get it. I get it. They clearly love each other. Feels a little toxic.
- [123:52]
A
He's bringing her down.
- [123:53]
B
I didn't say he was bringing her down.
- [123:55]
A
He was bringing who down?
- [123:56]
B
I didn't say he was bringing her down. I mean, she was the one that got caught, that was charged with.
- [124:02]
A
This is my thing, attacking them. I think it's actually okay that she is a knucklehead.
- [124:09]
B
Yeah. She's young.
- [124:10]
A
Yeah. I think it's okay. I think it's time to say that she's a knucklehead, though. Cause these guys, you got these young, reckless. You got these young knucklehead athletes. Right. And, you know, we talk about them all the time, but I think it's okay. This. This came out, and I wasn't really surprised about this. My heart went out to her because I could tell the fear. Yeah. That she was operating under. She's. The cops are there at the same time. It's like, she's gonna go to jail. That mug is coming out. Y' all don't know the power of that mug. They'll go crazy. Took this from. We talked about TMZ before. Take this from that mug. The thought of that mug, that's what gets people going. It's not the arrest. The arrest is one thing you could deal with. That. That mug is what people don't want. They do not want that mug. That muggy is crazy. Right? So to me, I looked at this, I'm like, yeah, this is something I would expect her to be involved in. She kind of. And she's in a knucklehead face. Maybe she'll come out of it.
- [125:14]
B
She's on her story. I. I agree. Like, it's young like, who knows what I would do with sponsorship and fame and power and money? Like, you just don't know. So I'm not gonna judge her for that. But, man, I just want the stories about her to be about her success and how meaningful it is for her and what she's overcome as an athlete, a gold medalist, rather than. Here she goes again, knucklehead.
- [125:38]
A
Shit.
- [125:38]
B
I think they need to break up.
- [125:40]
A
So if they break up, you think it'll change?
- [125:45]
B
They both just keep getting in trouble together?
- [125:47]
A
Yes.
- [125:48]
B
I don't know if it'll change, but, like, it's tough.
- [125:50]
A
All right, we out of here, man. Take thing caps off. But okay, first of all, before we do, thank you to Matt Bellany, thank you to Howard Bryant. Take your thing caps off. Do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathan Jr.
- [125:59]
B
I'm Rachel Lindsay. Make sure you guys vote for us. NAACP Award.
- [126:02]
A
NAACP Award.
- [126:04]
B
Nice.