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Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay
Dr. Ilyasah Shabazz and the Legacy of Malcolm X
00:25:25
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- [00:00]
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- [00:30]
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Podcast Host 1
It is an honor for us to have a black cultural royalty joining us on the show today. I don't know if she likes being referred to like that, but Dr. Elisha Shabazz joins us today. She is an author, an academic, the third daughter of Malcolm X and Betty Shabazz. She's written several great books Growing up X. She wrote a children's book called Malcolm Little the Boy who Grew up to Become Malcolm X. The Awakening of Malcolm X she wrote. And she's here to talk about the autobiography of Malcolm X which is celebrating its 40th anniversary this year. Actually, that says 40th. Wait a minute, 1965.
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Dr. Elisha Shabazz
That's 66. His birthday, you said.
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Podcast Host 1
No, the autobiography of Malcolm X was published in October 1965. So that's the 60th.
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Podcast Host 2
60Th. But the book is for his birthday.
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Podcast Host 1
For his birthday. The book is for his birthday. So she's here to talk to us about not only her life, but the tremendous legacy of her family and her father. Thank you for joining us on higher learning, Dr. Shabazz.
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Dr. Elisha Shabazz
Well, thank you. It's such an honor. You know, I listen to you guys. I watch you guys all the time. And it is truly an honor to be on your program.
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Podcast Host 2
Thank you.
- [02:30]
Podcast Host 1
So the we got copies of the book is a book that I've read. The Autobiography of Malcolm X. It's a book that I've read. I don't want to say how many times. A lot of times, like, so why is it as important today as it's ever been because I feel that it is.
- [02:49]
Dr. Elisha Shabazz
Well, my father's legacy helps to shape human possibility. Right. I was just rereading the autobiography and you know, it's. Every time I read seems to highlight something that's even more important than the last time I've read it. When I read about chapter from chapter 10 on onwards for me today, it says, you know, this is our history. These are the things that have happened. It's important to know that so that we know how to move forward with human possibility. It's, it's a classic and it tells a story for all of us to understand.
- [03:38]
Podcast Host 2
Yeah, it's really interesting cause growing up I feel like at least the school I went to they teach you one thing and they tried to put and we've talked about it on our podcast, you know, Malcolm X and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Against each other. But as you get older, you really learn what things were really about. And as when you think about your father's legacy, which parts do you feel are most enduring and which parts do you feel are most overlooked?
- [04:11]
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- [04:37]
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Dr. Elisha Shabazz
Well, you know, my father was in his 20s when the world learned of him. And it was during the height of the civil rights movement. My father came along and said we demand our human rights. As your brother, there's no asking right. We demand our human rights as ordained by God. And it's understanding where we were psychologically, socially. You know, it wasn't only blacks who had been miseducated for hundreds of years, but you know, our whole country. White people, yellow people, red people, Asian People African. You know, we had all been so, you know, unfortunately miseducated. Right. And so my father came along and, and gave purpose to our identity. The other thing that I really stress in mostly all of my books is his foundation. His mother was influential in ensuring that her son had compassion for all living creatures. That his father was a member of the pta, that he was the chapter president of the Garvey Movement, that his mother was actually related to Egerton, who was one of the co founders of the Garvey movement. So it's just understanding that Malcolm's foundation was pretty solid. And, you know, so I often share. There's this misnomer that you go to jail, you miraculously walk out as Malcolm X, the icon, when the fact is that it's the foundation. Because if we think that you can go to jail and miraculously walk out as an icon, then it's.
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Dr. Elisha Shabazz
It negates the importance of family. It. It negates the importance of the village that's necessary to raise a child. And so, you know, there, there are a couple of, of things, but I would say that those are probably my primary focus.
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Podcast Host 1
What do you feel like the biggest. To piggyback on what Rachel said, what do you feel like the biggest misconception about your father and your family are.
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Dr. Elisha Shabazz
The biggest misconception? Well, I tell you something that I find important is just, you know, what his wife was able to do that she lived through her husband being surveilled, you know, living under surveillance, being harassed, you know, to the highest power. And that even after her home was firebombed and after she witnessed the assassination, martyrdom of her husband, that she was able, you know, as a mother, as a mother of four little girls and pregnant with, with twins, that she was able, you know, to have a life and take care of all six of her girls and give us all of what she gave us. I mean, the list goes on. I talk about in growing up. Exactly. But it was because she never accepted no or I can't as an answer for herself. You know, the sense of self respect that she said she learned from her husband. We have this great quote in the Shabazz center where my mother talks about. It's a quote about that her husband helped her to understand her role as a woman, as a wife, as a mother, and as a, a, A servant in the community.
- [08:50]
Podcast Host 1
Both your mom and Coretta Scott King. I always wondered something. And we had Malcolm, we had Martin Luther King Jr III on and get a chance to ask him Jr the third, Jr III. Jr Martin Luther King Jr Jr Martin Luther King Jr III. We've had him. We. So we've talked to the, you know, the lineage of these. These two icons. Was your mother angry with America?
- [09:14]
Dr. Elisha Shabazz
Oh, my gosh. That's what I mean. My mother, you know, she was not a victim, right? Did not live her life as a victim. And, you know, sometimes when I'm looking and scrolling, you know, through my social media and I come across, oh, my gosh, these. The horrific killings here in our country in Sudan. I mean, my goodness, to see, you know, millions of. Of corpses, of bodies like, you know, like they're rodents or, you know, it's just so horrible. And. And so it's. It's. It's just very difficult to think that there are people who have no regard for human life, you know, no regard for our environment. There's plenty of land. There's plenty of wealth. So to think that my mother was angry. I wouldn't say she was angry at all, because she raised her six girls in a bubble of love, you know, And I think, if anything, when you realize that the world is not like this bubble of love that you. That in which you were raised, you know, that can be a bit challenging if you can't put it in perspective.
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Podcast Host 2
It's so interesting to read the book in 2025, like, reread the book in 2025. And I know. I want your thought and maybe what you would think that your father would say about how the black American has evolved or hasn't in 2025.
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Dr. Elisha Shabazz
Well, you know, I think about, you know, the incident that happened in Alabama. You know, there used to be a time when we had such disdain for ourselves that we didn't want to identify with being black or anything, that it was to be black. You know, it was. You know, we looked at it in so many different kinds of ways. And so I think that now that we are more enlightened, that we are more informed, that we make sure that everyone, you know, understands that black power is not exclusionary. It simply means that we want to resume our. Our place in the human family. And I think that there are many people that understand that.
- [11:39]
Podcast Host 1
There's so much talk about your dad and you talk about your family. Like, you know, there are documentaries that come out about who was behind the assassination of your father, and there's a battle. Who's gonna be held responsible? Your family and the profound tragedy that happens to you, that happened to you guys remains cultural volleyball. It remains something where we try to Figure out who did it. We try to assign blame. We try to learn lessons from the scores of people that lost their lives during this period of black intellectual awakening. And like, we talk about, you know, who. Who killed Medgar evers, who killed Dr. King, who killed Malcolm X, who we're trying to figure out, the government factions, all of this stuff. What is it like to live through that as. Like that being your dad, as it being a cultural crime to us and us being victims of this sort of socioeconomic oppression. But that being a father that you really never got to have a life with because somebody made a decision that was political, that must be excruciating.
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Dr. Elisha Shabazz
Well, you know, you have to find a way to accept whatever has happened in history, right? And then you find you. You have to find a way for me anyway, how can I help to mend this fractured part of our history, these fractured parts that exist in so many of our lives. And, you know, and I think that's adapting or adopting my mother, when I look at her, that she never accepted, you know, she never gave in to bitterness and despair and victimization, right? Because you have to believe in God. You have to believe that your life has purpose, has meaning. So for me, it's always been to address the inaccuracies, accuracies of my father's life. I know I've watched many programs in the 80s and in the 90s where they acted as if Malcolm had no real contribution. And for me, it was wanting to make sure that. That this information that my mother had safeguarded was not for Malcolm to be a. You know, to have a light on Malcolm, but to make sure that his work, his body of work, was documented and preserved for the benefit of this generation and the generations going forward.
- [14:28]
Podcast Host 2
As a writer and an educator, how do you balance preserving your father's legacy with carving your own path?
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Dr. Elisha Shabazz
It's so funny. I don't even think about, oh, I, you know, I need to carve my path, right? You know, I love my people like my father did. I think I could be an empath, and I believe my father was. And when you see injustice, you know, you have to do something about it. One of the things that I'm really grateful to my mother, she raised us so that we learned about the significant contributions women, Islam and people of the African diaspora as indigenous people, first world civilizations made to history, so that we grew up with a really solid sense of ourselves. We grew up to really love who we are just as we are. And I often share that if I love me, it's very easy for me to sit here and look at you two and love you. If I didn't love me, I would have no desire to identify with you. And so I'm grateful. I think that's my parents greatest gift that they gave me an opportunity to love who I am and loving who I am. When I see injustice, I lend myself and however I can. I'm naturally a creative. If we lived in a just world, I'd be in the arts, you know, I would be in the, you know, I, I make these posts of Michael Jackson. I know people are like Michael Jackson, you know, when people are, you know, killed. But different parts of our culture. I love culture. And one of the greatest things, another thing that I learned, you know, I was a, oh, gosh. A consultant for the Prince Among Slaves documentary, PBS documentary. And what I learned is that our culture was based on the universal spirit and intellect. And so that's God and scholarship. And when you look at, you know, the foundation of history and so forth, you know, you, you, you know, you, you realize that and you can look at us now and see all the advances and contributions we continue to make in spite of, you know, the horrendous things that have happened in history.
- [16:49]
Podcast Host 2
Yeah.
- [16:52]
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- [17:18]
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- [17:40]
Podcast Host 1
Shop now@carmax.com I learned about Islam, obviously. You know, I'm from Baton Rouge and we had the Islamic center there of Dale Pitt and so you would see the brothers out there and stuff. But I learned about Islam through your father. I learned about both the nation of Islam and, like, what it meant to make pilgrimage and all. I learned all of that stuff because of the life of Malcolm X. That was my entry point to understanding the religion of over 1 billion people, like on earth, right? There are specific attacks Right now on Islam. And it's funny that when you read and understand your father's life, he talks about how his faith allowed him to become a part of the wider human experience when he was able to connect with people that didn't look like him, that were Muslim. And that when I first read it, because, you know, growing up in a Christian household, I'm like, oh, well, like, what is it more about this religion, this faith, this culture, this history. Now it's under attack in a very direct way and has been under attack by certain factions who want to paint it in a certain way and marginalize people who are Muslim. What are your thoughts on that? What are your thoughts on how Islam affected your father's life and your whole family's life and about how the world, parts of this administration, parts of other parts of the world, look at Islam and Muslim people and try to put them in a box?
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Dr. Elisha Shabazz
Yeah, I think you're talking about global citizenship because sometimes where, you know, now people are talking about a Foundational Black American vs. The Black People in the Caribbean talk.
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Podcast Host 1
About it here lot.
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Dr. Elisha Shabazz
And that's, that's just, it's fractured. Right. Because we are the majority people in the world. Right. And we, if we're going to start fracturing our, you know, our identities and. And so forth, then we be, we do become the minorities. You know, what stands out the most for me as a Muslim and as a person who made Hajj, who made pilgrimage, and, and is what my next book is about, the journey of self discovery and purpose and, and, and all of those kinds of things. That one thing that really stands out for me in Islam is that, you know, we believe in the oneness of God. Right. Hence the oneness of man. And so there's not a, you know, in the truest sense. Right. It's not a, you know, this thing of, you know, again, this fractured kind of identity and way of living.
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Podcast Host 2
Yeah. Seeing, you know, when you talk about foundational black Americans and you talk about the fracture which is in opposition to the evolution in thought that, you know, your father had, as we're seeing his. This journey through this book. It. And that's why I say it's so interesting to read it like right now. Do you think with the fractures in the community with systemic racism and the need for structural change, that the vision can ever be achieved for what black people truly deserve and they've never had in this country?
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Dr. Elisha Shabazz
Well, we did have it in this country before Christopher Columbus. And that's another really great learning source in The Autobiography of Malcolm X. And why, you know, for me, chapter 10, chapter 11, chapter 12 really stands out because it's. It's a big history lesson, right? And it's been. So my father, you know, having gone to three different prisons during, you know, he was 20 when he was arrested. You know, he had a white girlfriend. He got extended time for armed robbery. And he took advantage of the opportunity in the colony. Norfolk Prison, which I can't remember the name of the university today that I lectured at, but he took advantage of the superior library that they had, and he. Everything. And so he's able to just recite off the top of his head the history of what happened to blacks, what happened to Jewish people, what happened to Asian people, what happened to the whole human family. And he was so well read, right? And we've never been. We've never been free, right? When, you know, it then says Christopher Columbus, we all know he didn't discover America because people were already living here, right. And those people just happened to look like us. Right. And that our ancestors are indigenous Americans. And it was, you know, for, you know, if. If we existed for, say, a million years, that we lived for a very long time thriving, building, you know, as I said, our culture was universal. Spirit and intellect. It's worshiping a God and. And, you know, scholarship. Right. And so it's a matter of reclaiming that kind of legacy before Christopher Columbus was even in existence.
- [23:12]
Podcast Host 1
Right. Before the Columbian exchange. Well, Dr. Shabazz, we are. I was. I dove back into the book. I hadn't read it in a long time, and, you know, obviously it inspired me the way it did before, but there were also some things that angered me a little bit just because so many of the things that, you know, your father talked about are still there.
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Podcast Host 2
Yeah.
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Podcast Host 1
You know what I mean? So there was a little bit of. There's a little bit of me being upset and reading the book, but I was very, very, very happy to. To. To dive back into it and that it is going to be relevant for another generation because he is an incredibly important figure. And the sacrifices of your family are greatly noted. And I wish that you guys wouldn't have had to make them. But we are. We're very happy to get back into the book to celebrate your father, to celebrate you, and happy that you joined us on higher learning today.
- [24:07]
Podcast Host 2
Yes.
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Dr. Elisha Shabazz
Thank you very much. And it's so important for young people especially. You know, it was in the 1950s that Carter G. Woodson, who founded Black History Week at the time, said the biggest race is to see who will control the minds of young people. And so it is so important that young people are able to read this book and let it educate them and give them a sense of a better sense of themselves and purpose, especially as we navigate all these challenges that are existing.
- [24:36]
Podcast Host 1
Thank you so much.
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Podcast Host 2
Thank you.
- [24:38]
Dr. Elisha Shabazz
Thank you so much, too.