Higher Learning – “Exploring the Democratic Narrative With Governor Gavin Newsom! Plus, Ryan Grim Explains the Ceasefire”

Podcast: Higher Learning with Van Lathan & Rachel Lindsay (The Ringer)
Date: October 10, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation with California Governor Gavin Newsom, covering the Democrats’ messaging challenges, economic populism, crisis of affordability, race and America’s history, and transpartisan engagement. Newsom responds candidly to criticism from figures like Joe Rogan, discusses pushing Democratic messaging into conservative spaces, and defends his controversial podcast guest choices. Later, journalist Ryan Grim joins to explain breaking developments in the Israeli-Palestinian ceasefire, offering context, skepticism, and detail on humanitarian impacts.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Interview Dynamics, Democratic Messaging, and Media Narratives

• Newsom’s Interview Performance & Candor ([00:24–02:13])

  • Rachel and Van rate the interview highly, citing Newsom’s willingness to engage on difficult topics and not dodge challenging questions.
  • Memorable Quote:
    Rachel: “He engaged with everything and he ran from nothing… and was open to things that we had to say.” (01:08)

• Joe Rogan Critique & Newsom’s Response ([03:55–08:50])

  • Playing a Rogan segment criticizing Newsom (“He wants to be president so bad…”), Newsom rebuts Rogan’s claims, challenges his willingness to have an open conversation, and argues that national attention on California is biased.
  • Newsom’s rebuttal: Stresses California’s strengths—diversity, economic power, innovation—versus what he calls “California derangement syndrome.”
  • Memorable Quote:
    Newsom: “People are obsessed with focusing on what’s wrong with the state and not what’s right… We invent the future. It happens here first. We're America’s coming attraction.” (07:04)
  • Defensive of California, aggressive in numbers and contrasts against red states.

• Housing Affordability Crisis & Economic Inequality ([08:50–15:26])

  • Discussion about California’s severe affordability problem, with Newsom giving details on population shifts, lawsuits against cities not building enough housing, and his “abundance mindset.”
  • Van: “15% of California residents right now can afford the average home.” (09:04)
  • Newsom: “On the issue of affordability, it explains more things in more ways… problems in California.” (09:49)
  • Newsom outlines progressive reforms: aggressive housing laws, minimum wage hikes (esp. for fast food, healthcare workers), largest EITC in U.S., prenatal/pre-K investments, tax rebates.

2. Economic Populism, Generational Crisis, and the Democratic Party

• Populist Messaging Gaps ([19:12–22:49])

  • Newsom asserts Democrats must center cost of living and young men’s struggles, noting young voters feel “pissed off” and disconnected.
  • Newsom: “The issue of our time is cost of living. Period. Full stop… we need to own that…” (19:23)

• Messaging Deficiencies & Why Dems “Lose the Narrative” ([21:43–27:23])

  • Newsom admits Democrats "suck at messaging," losing ground to right-wing media’s “anti-woke” narrative, book bans, and CRT/DEI demonization.
  • Newsom: “These guys just dominate in the messaging game… We are the ones that appear weak at our core… what undergirds our toxicity of our brand is a sense that we are weak.” (22:49 and 25:34)
  • Newsom describes his own media efforts: going on Fox News, debating Ron DeSantis, launching a podcast, and physically showing up in red states—aimed at being on offense.

3. Race, American History, and the “Is America a Racist Country?” Question

• The “Racist Country?” Conversation ([27:23–34:28])

  • Newsom is asked directly if America is a racist country—a question that “ensnared” Kamala Harris.
  • Newsom: Acknowledges structural/institutional racism, but says most Americans don’t believe they or their country are racist, making the subject loaded and requiring nuance. He emphasizes a need for “situational awareness.”
  • Van: “If not for intense, prolonged systemic racism, how do you explain that disparity?” regarding wealth gaps. (29:27)
  • Newsom points to actions like signing reparations and Bruce’s Beach legislation, creating an office with the Black Caucus, and leading on racial equity as California governor.

• Rachel and Van’s Perspective:

  • Van: “We want to know that people are saying no [to racism] when we’re not around… The country can’t be told without my history.” (41:32)

4. Platforming Right-Wing Voices & Newsom’s Podcast Strategy

• Criticism Over Podcast Guests (Charlie Kirk, Steve Bannon) ([34:28–46:22])
  • Newsom defends inviting controversial right-wing guests, clarifying his podcast is “not to get in debates” but to understand what motivates the other side and study their organizing success.
  • Deep discussion of civil dialogue, finding common humanity, and his personal background (in a Republican family).
  • Newsom: “Divorce is not an option… He exists… It’s important to understand it.” (35:40)
  • Rachel and Van push on whether now is the time to be simply understanding or to be more forcefully confrontational/challenging, especially when voices have tangible negative impacts.

5. Democratic Establishment, Populist Wing, and Internal Tensions

• Establishment vs. Populist Divide (Mamdani in NY, etc.) ([53:55–59:49])
  • Van and Rachel challenge Newsom on why the Democratic establishment lags behind popular will on issues like single payer health care.
  • Newsom: Pushes for “grace and humility” for governing pragmatism, details the difficulty implementing ideals once in office, and the constraints of power (rule of law, legislative realities, budget tactics).
  • Memorable analogy:
    Van: “If you go to a restaurant… after a while, either you have to say, yo, bring me what I’m about to pay for, or I’m going somewhere else.” (59:49)

6. Israel-Hamas Ceasefire, AIPAC, and U.S. Foreign Policy

• Van and Rachel transition to the breaking news of a ceasefire deal, joined by Ryan Grim.

• Newsom: On conditioning military aid to Israel, opposes a “blanket exemption” but supports using executive leverage for conditionality. He is clear in opposition to Netanyahu and outlines California’s symbolic and material humanitarian aid to Gaza.

  • Newsom: “I would have a difficult time supporting [ending] support across the board. Conditioning in a thoughtful way, with flexibility of criteria… is where I think you have to be careful.” (64:11)

• AIPAC Donations ([65:02–65:24])

  • Newsom says AIPAC is not part of his day-to-day political life, and notes shifting relevance of such lobbying groups.

7. Ryan Grim on the Israel-Hamas Ceasefire

• Background & Current State ([72:58–76:02])

  • Outlines the tentative Israel/Hamas ceasefire: phase one involves returning hostages, partial military withdrawal, opening humanitarian aid, and significant prisoner exchanges; implementation remains uncertain as fighting continues.

• Humanitarian, Political, and Geopolitical Complications ([76:02–89:39])

  • Details Israeli administrative detention practices, the humanitarian crisis (“literally starving to death”), doubts over Israeli compliance with ceasefire terms (previous ceasefire in Lebanon disregarded), and challenges for Gaza people's future.
  • Explains the pivotal role of Marwan Barghouti—potential Palestinian unifier—and why both Hamas and Fatah push for his release.

• Skepticism and Power Dynamics ([87:12–88:44])

  • Grim notes skepticism over whether a true ceasefire will materialize and highlights the U.S. (under Trump) as the ultimate lever over Israel's actions.
  • Ryan Grim: “For all the talk about how Israel runs the American government, it's not actually true… when the American government wants something, the client state complies.”

• Aid, Rebuilding, and the Next Phase ([88:55–92:09])

  • Discussion of the physical and social destruction in Gaza, massive obstacles to rebuilding (unexploded ordnance, destroyed hospitals), uncertainty over infrastructure aid.

• Media and Political Influence ([92:55–95:16])

  • Grim discusses media operatives and opinion makers (NYT, Van Jones, etc.) involved in Israeli information campaigns.

8. Cultural Segment – Cash Money vs. No Limit “Versus” Debate

• Van and Rachel end the episode discussing the announced “Cash Money vs. No Limit Records” battle, ruminating on the significance for Southern hip hop culture, rules and fairness, cultural versus national impact, and nostalgia for classic eras.
  • Van: “If this took place in New Orleans or Louisiana, it would be different… it would not be the way it might be for a nationwide audience.” (101:11)
  • The segment is full of high-energy banter, regional pride, and deep cuts commentary—emphasizing the importance of cultural and generational context in music showdowns.

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• (07:04) Newsom: “We invent the future. It happens here first. We're America’s coming attraction.”
• (19:23) Newsom: “The issue of our time is cost of living. Period. Full stop.”
• (22:49) Newsom: “Democrat party… we suck at messaging. These guys just dominate in the messaging game… They’re winning on that message… Where the hell is my party?”
• (25:34) Newsom: “Trump is weakness masquerading as strength... What undergirds our toxicity of our brand is a sense that we are weak.”
• (33:15) Van Jones: “We know that the foundation of the country was racism in America is older than America. Like, my ancestors were enslaved here before the English expatriates here decided to start their own country.”
• (35:40) Newsom: “Divorce is not an option. We define the terms of our future.”
• (41:32) Van Jones: “We want to know that people are saying no [to racism] when we’re not around… The country can’t be told without my history.”
• (64:11) Newsom: “To eliminate support [to Israel] across the board is a bridge too far. Conditioning in a thoughtful way with flexibility of criteria… is where I think you have to be careful.”
• (87:12) Ryan Grim: “For all the talk about how Israel runs the American government, it's not actually true...when the American government wants something from a client state, the client state complies.”
• (101:11) Van Jones: “If this took place in New Orleans or in Louisiana, it would be different. It would not be the way it might be for a nationwide audience.”

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:24–02:13: Introduction, expectations for Newsom interview
• 03:55–08:50: Rogan critique, Newsom’s defense of California
• 08:50–15:26: Housing, affordability, and economic inequality
• 19:12–22:49: Economic populism, generational pain, messaging
• 25:34–27:23: Dems’ “weakness,” Republican media dominance, Newsom’s offense strategy
• 27:23–34:28: Is America a racist country? Wealth disparities, reparations, approaches to race
• 34:28–46:22: Podcasting with right-wing figures, criticism and Newsom’s philosophy
• 53:55–59:49: Party establishment vs. populist wing, implementing ideals, pragmatism
• 62:02–70:04: Israel-Hamas ceasefire, Democrat internal debates, AIPAC/lobbying
• 72:58–95:16: Ryan Grim explains ceasefire deal, skepticism, humanitarian impact
• 97:02–109:45 (and beyond): Cash Money vs No Limit “Versus,” Southern hip hop culture, reflections, close

Conclusion: Flow, Tone, and Usefulness

The episode is both combative and reflective, marked by Newsom’s forceful defenses and frank self-examination, along with Van and Rachel’s persistent, sometimes emotionally charged probing. There’s an undercurrent of urgency about the direction of Democratic politics, communication failures, and the high stakes of the upcoming political battles (with pointed references to Trumpism, institutional racism, and global crises like Gaza).

Ryan Grim’s segment is clear, accessible, and analytical, helping listeners track complex Middle East developments.

For listeners, this episode offers:

• An unusually candid Democratic leader facing pointed scrutiny and self-critique,
• Deep dives on messaging, generational divides, and the limits of conventional politics,
• Nuanced, on-the-ground reporting about Gaza and the ceasefire deal,
• Cultural insight into Southern hip hop’s legacy.

Recommended Segments (for listening):

• 03:55–08:50: Newsom vs. Rogan/CA perception
• 19:12–22:49: Dems’ populism & young voter alienation
• 27:23–34:28: America, racism, and reparations
• 53:55–59:49: Explaining the party establishment/populist gap
• 72:58–95:16: Ryan Grim on Gaza ceasefire and America’s leverage

The episode blends urgency, frustration, and the search for effective progressive politics with moments of levity and cultural celebration—an engaging, informative listen for anyone invested in the future of the Democratic party, racial justice, or Middle East affairs.