Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

"Fatherhood and Forgiveness With Roy Wood Jr., Plus Ed Zitron Breaks Down the AI Bubble"

Originally released: October 28, 2025 | The Ringer

Episode Overview

This episode of Higher Learning features a poignant and humorous conversation with comedian and author Roy Wood Jr. about his new memoir, fatherhood, forgiveness, and Black masculinity. The episode also dives into the so-called "AI Bubble" with technology analyst Ed Zitron, who offers a frank warning about the hype—and risks—surrounding artificial intelligence and its economic impact. As always, hosts Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay provide sharp cultural and political commentary, touching on Democratic party politics, generational divides, community responsibility, and hip-hop culture.

Key Segments and Insights

1. Kamala Harris's Political Future (02:00–10:58)

Main Points

• Discussion about Vice President Kamala Harris's hints at another presidential run.
• Rachel expresses skepticism about Harris’s chances and critiques the Democratic Party’s failure to adapt to changing electorate needs.
• Van emphasizes the need for politicians to provide tangible visions for the future.

Notable Quotes

• Rachel Lindsay (03:36):
  “Where I feel like the American public is and what they want from their politicians is kind of like, 'What are you doing moving forward?' So I just don't know … It's hard for me to say, am I excited? … I want to see her always involved in politics.”
• Van Lathan (09:14):
  “We want to know what you have to say and what you have to give to the American people as a way out of it. And we want moral clarity on some issues that it did not seem like the administration or the Democrats themselves had moral clarity on.”

2. Generational Change & Democratic Party Critique (10:58–19:54)

Main Points

• Hakeem Jeffries' tepid endorsement of a local NYC candidate sparks criticism.
• Van critiques political parties’ focus on loyalty and establishment figures at the expense of real representation.
• Generation gap in Black leadership highlighted via personal and familial examples.

Notable Quotes

• Van Lathan (13:05):
  “One thing that is holding the Democrats back is their inability to adapt to a changing landscape of their own electorate... they are legitimately from a different generation.”
• Van Lathan (17:55):
  "Children are being bombed in Gaza. I can't say anything about it because that will cross the president. ... That's not good enough for me."

3. Interview: Roy Wood Jr. on Fatherhood, Forgiveness, & Black Masculinity (20:53–73:41)

Main Points

• Roy Wood Jr. shares stories from his new memoir The Man of Many Fathers.
• Reflections on growing up in Birmingham, losing his father at 16, and "collecting" fathers and life lessons from a variety of community figures and environments, including Golden Corral coworkers, comedians, and family.
• Conversation on the complexities of intergenerational forgiveness and redefining fatherhood beyond biological ties.
• Humorous aside brainstorming Roy starring as Dr. King in a biopic— but only "on vacation."
• Dialogue about learning resilience from ancestors and the value of diverse guidance in Black communities.
• Roy's candid admission of being “not good with kids,” but supporting youth through charitable work and sports initiatives.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Roy Wood Jr. (26:11):
  “When we think about masculinity, the idea that it all is supposed to come from one place, it don't. ... A lot of moments of wisdom that are passed on from elders to the youngins is microscopic.”
• Roy Wood Jr. (33:11):
  “You either be what you wish you had, or you be what you got. ... I have to know who I am. And to know who I am, I have to know who he is. So I have to do the homework on that.”
• Roy Wood Jr. (41:04):
  “My mom's just like, look, we ain't gotta fuck with each other. Just make sure the boy don't join the gang… That was the kind of agreement that they had: family for the sake of safety.”
• Rachel Lindsay (50:11):
  “Did that help you maybe reconcile certain feelings you had? … Hearing how he was present in so many other people's lives and what he meant to them, did that help you maybe reconcile some feelings that you had?”
• Roy Wood Jr. (53:14):
  “I can't still hold him to that. ... I've rarely seen where resentment has helped in any capacity make you a better person. That's true.”

Highlight

• Cultural Resonance (38:40–40:54):
  The hosts and Roy reminisce about childhood freedoms, humorously recalling “playing football in the street, on the concrete, by the way, in a poison cloud” from the mosquito truck.

4. The Village & Community Responsibility (64:30–69:39)

Main Points

• Discussion on the African proverb "it takes a village" and how that looks in modern Black America.
• Roy, self-aware and witty, admits he’s not a natural mentor but deeply supports organizations and sports for youth as “his ministry.”

Notable Quotes

• Roy Wood Jr. (65:48):
  “I'm not good with kids. ... But I work in support of organizations that do.”
• Van Lathan (68:13):
  “You did it again. The answer is yes, nigga. The answer is yes. All of our kids are all our responsibility, and you do it.”

5. Conversation with Ed Zitron: The "AI Bubble" (75:47–108:17)

Main Points

• Ed Zitron, technology writer and critic, breaks down the current AI boom as a bubble rooted mostly in speculation and hype, not profitable technology.
• Explains the mechanics: GPUs, large language models (LLMs), and data centers.
• Challenges the narrative around artificial general intelligence (AGI) and the risk to everyday investors whose 401ks are tied to the "Magnificent Seven" tech giants.
• Draws parallels but also distinctions between the AI hype and earlier economic bubbles (dot-com, housing).
• Warns of possible economic fallout, but says it’s unlikely to reach the devastation of the 2008 financial crisis.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Ed Zitron (76:53):
  "AI, right now, the only real business model it has is finding ways to burn billions of dollars ... It's a myth. It's built on myth."
• Ed Zitron (84:15):
  “There's a massive push from these tech companies to push AI everywhere. ... They’ve stuck themselves with this big expensive thing. ... Nobody's making a profit.”
• Ed Zitron (94:10):
  “We're in a bubble. Absolutely … The Magnificent Seven will spend over $400 billion of CapEx this year. There's about 60 billion of revenue. There's no profits. No one's profitable...”
• Van Lathan (96:48):
  [lays out AGI basics for listeners; asks if AGI is possible]
• Ed Zitron (97:59):
  "I think Sam Altman's lying... They haven't proven [AGI]—we don't even know how human beings think; how the hell are we meant to do that in a computer?... It is a myth."
• Ed Zitron (101:44):
  "If we're afraid of the Ninja Turtles, at this point I actually think there's probably more compelling science about the Ninja Turtles. I'm not even kidding. We could probably make a Ninja Turtle faster than AGI."

6. Cultural & Musical Commentary: No Limit vs. Cash Money (108:25–113:29)

Main Points

• Fun debate on the recent No Limit vs. Cash Money hip-hop showdown.
• Appreciation for Louisiana’s contribution to hip-hop and playful bickering over city/state loyalty.
• Van argues “Louisiana won.”

Notable Quotes

• Van Lathan (111:08):
  “You know who really won? Louisiana won. Louisiana won. We changed hip hop.”

7. Inclusion and the Politics of the “Table” (113:29–116:33)

Main Points

• Reflections following a clip of Governor Andy Beshear discussing Democratic Party diversity.
• Van’s impassioned stance on seats at the table:

Notable Quote

• Van Lathan (114:58):
  “You will have to move. I know that that sounds really, really, really, really aggressive, but it's a fact. If America is, in fact, supposed to be a multiethnic, multiracial melting pot of ideas, you can't hoard seats at the table for a long time. And I do not trust you to add seats.”

Memorable Moments & Humor

• Roy Wood Jr. on playing Dr. King:
  “‘I could be Dr. King. But it would have to be, like, in the Vineyard. ... Three days where Dr. King is just on vacation from saving the world. ... This movie is cold.’” (24:39)
• Van Lathan’s take on Silk the Shocker:
  “Stop hating on Silk the Shocker ... Silk and rap. Stop hating on Silk.” (112:38)
• Ed Zitron on AGI vs. Ninja Turtles:
  “We could probably make a Ninja Turtle faster than AGI.” (101:44)

Timestamps for Key Sections

• Kamala Harris & Democratic Politics: 02:00–19:54
• Roy Wood Jr. Interview: 20:53–73:41
• Community & ‘The Village’: 64:30–69:39
• AI Bubble w/ Ed Zitron: 75:47–108:17
• No Limit vs. Cash Money: 108:25–113:29
• Politics of Inclusion: 113:29–116:33

Episode Takeaways

• Forgiveness and fatherhood aren’t fixed ideas but are shaped by context, history, and community influence.
• The AI boom is likely a speculative bubble with wide-reaching (but not always visible) consequences for ordinary investors.
• Community support isn’t only direct mentorship—resources, advocacy, and visibility matter.
• Generational change in politics and culture requires both confrontation and respect for legacy.
• Inclusion means making space, not just inviting people to an already crowded table.

For further engagement, follow Roy Wood Jr.'s new book The Man of Many Fathers, and Ed Zitron's newsletter at betteroffline.com.**