Generational Talent With Quincy Avery! Plus, Trump’s Health Rumors and Young Americans' High Standards. | Higher Learning | The Ringer

Summary

Podcast Summary: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Generational Talent With Quincy Avery! Plus, Trump’s Health Rumors and Young Americans' High Standards
Date: September 5, 2025
Podcast Host: The Ringer

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Overview

In this episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay are joined by quarterback coach Quincy Avery for an unfiltered discussion on generational talent in college football—most notably focusing on Arch Manning. The hosts also delve into current rumors about former President Trump’s health, discuss new social statistics about young Americans’ attitudes toward sex and relationships, analyze the cultural power of celebrity (including the Dallas Cowboys and Drake), and dive into viral moments involving athletes and pop culture figures.

This energetic episode is marked by spirited debates, sharp cultural critique, and memorable exchanges, all while maintaining humor, honesty, and insightful perspective on Black culture, sports, and politics.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. College Sports Talk – The "Arch Manning Effect"

[00:49] – [07:44] and [108:02] – [128:37]

• Texas’ Loss and Arch Manning’s Performance

  • Van playfully needles Rachel about Texas’s recent loss and quarterback Arch Manning’s underwhelming performance.
  • Rachel frames the loss as expected but expresses disappointment:

    “Arch looked worse than I wanted him to.” – Rachel [01:23]

  • They discuss how field position and running game masked problems with Arch’s play.

• Quincy Avery’s Evaluation of Arch Manning
  [108:46] and on

  • Quincy doubts Arch was ever a “generational talent,” citing his avoidance of elite training camps and unimpressive accuracy.

    “There’s never at any point in Arch Manning’s life that he’s done anything generational other than be named Manning.” – Quincy Avery [109:33]

  • Argues Arch’s legacy is inflated due to the Manning family dynasty and media “dick riding” Peyton and Eli.
  • Quincy highlights how media narratives and family connections drive unrealistic hype.

• Football "Generational Talent" Debate

  • The hosts riff on what “generational talent” means in football, referencing a viral Ryan Clark quote challenging whether superstars like Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Drew Brees qualify.
  • Van suggests mental and competitive gifts (Brady’s leadership, Brees’ accuracy) can be as “generational” as athletic traits.

    “Is there such thing as being so mentally and competitively gifted that that offsets maybe the way John Elway could run...?” – Van [64:00]

  • Quincy's clinical breakdown: Arch isn't particularly accurate, doesn't have a standout arm, and his stats stem from weaker competition.

• Parallels & Lessons

  • Quincy compares early-career Jalen Hurts and Arch Manning, crediting work ethic and development over innate hype.

    “It’s not about where you start, but it’s how you continually progress towards a goal... be the best version of yourself.” – Quincy Avery [125:54]

  • He warns young players about media-driven pressure and emphasizes personal, steady improvement.

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2. The Dallas Cowboys, Sports Spectacle, and Celebrity Culture

[03:01] – [07:59]

• Van’s scathing critique brands the Cowboys as “the Donald Trump of football” due to their focus on spectacle and lack of recent substance:

  “The Cowboys are the Donald Trump of football. The fact that they’re such a story is indicative of spectacle marketing.” – Van [05:00]

• Rachel defends the Cowboys’ legacy, arguing their dominance in the 70s and 90s justifies their fame—even if it’s now nostalgia-fueled.

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3. Young Americans, Sex Trends, and High Standards

[08:54] – [20:22]

• Donnie delivers stats on declining sex among Americans, especially Gen Z, sparking a deep cultural analysis from Van and Rachel.
• Rachel attributes the decline to:
  • Social media and digital distractions.
  • Changing attitudes toward relationships and sex, especially among women.
  • COVID-19, increased independence, and fear (STDs, etc).

  “I think women… value themselves in different ways where they don’t feel like…to get the attention of a man that they have to give themselves in that way.” – Rachel [11:00]

• Van laments over-intellectualizing relationships—arguing that perfectionism, fear, and digital mediation are making real intimacy, risk, and connection rare:

  “If you don’t think that life is about taking chances with people… with saying, I know enough about you to risk it…then you might as well live in a room, four walls, hand sanitizer everywhere, and jack off until you die.” – Van [16:32]

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4. Trump Health Rumors & MAGA Movement's Future

[20:32] – [43:03]

• Donnie surfaces social media rumors about Trump’s health during a quiet public week; a Trump audio clip dismisses “fake news.”

• Rachel refuses to wish death on someone, noting even Trump’s demise wouldn’t end the system that empowered him:

  “That’s not going to solve the problem…you have the same Congress in place, Supreme Court in place. J.D. Vance would take his position…” – Rachel [22:29]

• Van argues Trump’s unique charisma is central to MAGA—that “the movement dies with him”:

  “The MAGA movement dies with Donald Trump. I definitely do. I don’t think anybody else has nearly the gravitas…” – Van [25:17]

• Rachel counters that Trump’s true impact is infecting the system with “white replacement fear,” and the political/policy fallout will far outlive any single figure.

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5. Trump, Federal Power, and Policing Cities

[43:59] – [55:08]

• Ken Klippenstein reports the Department of Homeland Security has requested military support for ICE operations in Chicago.
• The hosts puzzle over the legal boundaries of Trump’s federal deployment of troops/police—with Van contrasting real safety (community care, anti-poverty measures) with the performative “strongman” approach of military occupation.
• Rachel points out the hypocrisy of conservatives lauding military crackdowns while doing little for children’s safety in schools:

  “If you are going to deploy the National Guard to protect people, why do you not have this same enthusiasm to protect children in school?” – Rachel [54:51]

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6. Viral Moments, Family Dynamics, and Social Media

[68:09] – [78:12]

• The show listens to and unpacks a viral video involving Brittany Renner, PJ Washington, and a custody handoff—they critique publicizing intimate family drama for clout, and both hosts stress the child’s well-being:

  “You put your ego over your child, you put social media over your child, you put yourself over your child and you got the attention that you wanted. But at what cost?” – Rachel [72:52] “All situations, in every situation, we just gotta think about the kid all the time.” – Van [74:06]

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7. Children, Elitism, and “Kid-Free Spaces”

[78:16] – [86:44]

• Heated and comic argument: Van says he should be able to pay more for child-free zones on flights or at restaurants.
• Rachel and Donnie challenge Van’s perspective as elitist; Van uses analogies to “convenience,” not superiority.

  “It is elitist to say that you want to pay for something because you feel better than somebody. I don’t feel better than families.” – Van [130:54]

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8. Drake & The Crisis of Prestige in Hip Hop Media

[87:25] – [104:05]

• Discussion of backlash against Drake for not doing interviews with Black/hip hop media.
• Van contends hip hop needs “prestige media”—where deep, serious interviews benefit both artist and audience, not the culture of “gotcha” moments:

  “There needs…to be a place where serious…prestige hip hop media…where you sit down and have important hip hop discussions…” – Van [105:58]

• Rachel observes that A-list actors still do less-prestigious outlets (like Extra), but major rappers avoid such spaces due to different cultural risks and a more cutthroat “viral moment” media environment.

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Memorable Quotes

• On The Cowboys:

  "The Dallas Cowboys to me are the Donald Trump of football…all celebrity bullshit." — Van [05:00]

• On Modern Dating & Sex:

  "The standards that we have, not just for human connection…but for human beings are so unbelievably high now." — Van [13:00]

• On Trump & White Supremacy:

  "White supremacy conditioned Black people…to not wish the worst on their enemy." — Van [28:39]

• On Arch Manning Hype:

  “There’s never at any point in Arch Manning’s life that he’s done anything generational other than be named Manning.” — Quincy Avery [109:33]

• On Parenting & Viral Drama:

  “You put your ego over your child…at what cost? Who is it that suffers in this moment? It’s the child.” — Rachel [72:52]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• College Football/Arch Manning intro – [00:51]
• Cowboys and sports legacy – [03:01]
• Americans having less sex – [08:54]
• Van’s cultural critique on dating – [12:12]
• Trump health rumor and movement discussion – [20:32]
• Federal troops, city policing, and children – [43:59]
• Brittany Renner viral custody dispute – [68:09]
• Drake and hip hop prestige media – [87:25]
• Generational talent debate (Ryan Clark, Quincy Avery) – [59:44]
• Quincy Avery on Arch Manning – [108:46]
• Arch Manning, media hype, and lessons for QBs – [125:34]
• Van/Rachel elitism, kid-free spaces argument – [130:00]

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Tone and Style

• The episode is high-energy, combative but respectful, with blunt humor, culture-savvy references, and a balance between sharp analysis and playful banter.
• The hosts consistently push each other for deeper answers while harnessing pop culture for broader social critique.

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This summary captures the breadth, insight, and vibrancy of the episode—serving as a comprehensive guide to major topics, arguments, and memorable moments for listeners and non-listeners alike.

Transcript

[Van Lathan]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up? Our learning is on. It's Zion Latham Jr. And it's me, Rachel Renlison. We're back. We were. We were. We were off and we gave you guys the. The Rokhanna interview. Lots of stuff happening right now.

[Rachel Lindsay]

People liked it. People liked the Rokhana, and we wished it was longer. Yeah, we'll have it back for sure.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, well, we'll definitely have Rokhanna back because I think the Rokhanna is going to be one of the names that people are going to be hearing in the next couple of years. He's one of the rising voices in the party. The interview probably should have been longer, but, you know, you take what you can get. As we talk right now, RFK is testifying before Congress and he's getting grilled. He's getting grilled by some people and then by other people, they're like, oh, we love you so much. You get to die out of the food. Whatever.

[Rachel Lindsay]

A typical. A typical. How a typical hearing goes?

[Van Lathan]

So partisan. So partisan.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

All right, so we're gonna talk Arch Manning later on, give you guys some college football. By the way, Ringer Tailgate is live. You guys can go watch that. Ringer Tailgate's brand new college football show at the Ringer. Woo me. Joe Anderson, Tay Frazier, go watch it. But we have Quincy Avery on the show to talk about Arch Manning. Let's talk about this. We have to, because we didn't get to talk Monday. Cause. And so you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What do you want?

[Van Lathan]

Y' all took the L. Let's just be real. I mean, we'll talk to Quincy later. But y' all took the L. And Arch Manning look like she.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Which we were predict. We were predicted to take the L. I think deep down, anybody who follows the team who follows, not even all of college football, but the top teams in college football. I think that we hoped we would win, but the odds were against us. And the prediction was that we were going to lose as well. Close game, but we were going to lose. I will say Arch looked worse than I wanted him to.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, he sucked.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It just. Even if you were just looking at the box score and watching the stats, it was. It was brutal. But if you watch the game, we were moving the ball, you know, running wise, got down to the. To the one yard line, lost the ball there at one point. I mean, it looked it. We should have done better and perhaps with a different quarterback if. When yours was there, because I know a lot of people, myself included, wanted Arch to be the start of last year, we probably would have won that.

[Van Lathan]

Game with Quinn Ewers.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think so. I absolutely think so.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, we definitely would have been a better position to win it because the playbook would have been more open. Sark would have done more things. You know, it's interesting, I think if you look at the box score, the box score actually doesn't tell the tale of how bad Arch was. Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, that's what I'm saying. Our off. Our offensive yards were more than theirs. We were moving the ball. But. And that's why I say running contributed a lot to that.

[Van Lathan]

Well, field position did too. Yeah. Because they.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. Oh yeah. Field position for sure.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We had great field position a lot of. A lot when we were driving, moving the ball forward. But yeah, it, it's disappointing. That's all I'm gonna say.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, a lot of disappointments for you sports wise. Cowboys are up to their old tricks again.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Can we move? We're talking college.

[Van Lathan]

What about the Cowboys though?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, you know, fortunately for our podcast timing we are recording before the game will be played tonight. We'll see what happens. I don't have to talk about it.

[Van Lathan]

Michael Parsons, he's gone. He went to the Packers. That's crazy how you feel about that?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It is crazy and it's upsetting. How much is the Packers? I'm upset they traded him to the Packers. I'm fully aware. Plays for the packers and I'm upset.

[Van Lathan]

Van they got rid of him. I'm asking.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let's talk about your team. Let's talk about your team.

[Van Lathan]

What's your team doing 2010?

[Rachel Lindsay]

How the saints. How the saints gonna be here?

[Van Lathan]

2010 is the world champions.

[Rachel Lindsay]

2010. Yeah, 2010.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, 2010.

[Rachel Lindsay]

15 years ago. That's 15 years ago. But I didn't say but I'm not talking about the Cowboys like they won last year. I'm not talking, I'm not talking about the Cowboys like that. I'm not acknowledging them as this fantastic team. You. Are you talking about the New Orleans Saints like they won last year?

[Van Lathan]

No, no, I'm telling you that. What I'm telling you right now is that the Saints won the championship while I was in my 30s and the Cowboys won the championship when I was in high school. And it's just. I'm just saying it is different.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The two girls do the do the same thing.

[Van Lathan]

They have one, ok. They have one. In the modern.

[Rachel Lindsay]

If we do in history.

[Van Lathan]

If we do in history in the modern era. This is the modern era since 2000 the cowboys don't have anything in the modern era but failure. That was, you know, it's okay. We'll save this for the end of the season.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I'm not taking up for the Cowboys.

[Van Lathan]

You are.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not.

[Van Lathan]

I'm a Cowboys fan. Can't believe you. Cowboys fans are everywhere, all around this goddamn. I hate the Cowboys. I hate them. I hate them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But why?

[Van Lathan]

Because it's bullshit. The whole thing is bullshit. The Cowboys are the biggest bullshit franchise ever in sports. Everything is bullshit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did you watch the documentary?

[Van Lathan]

No, I would never watch that. It's so funny that people were like, van, did you watch the Cowboys documentary?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm like, no, it's shot very well. It actually is a really good documentary.

[Van Lathan]

The Dallas Cowboys to me are the Donald Trump of football.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not going to listen to them.

[Van Lathan]

They are. To me, the Cowboys are the Donald Trump of football. The fact that the Cowboys are such a story is indicative of spectacle marketing. Spectacle, marketing, money, corporate bullshit. Building this big gaudy ass stadium that you can't even punt the ball. Cause the ball might fucking hit the all of this stuff. But it doesn't have anything to do with the actual fundamentals. They don't actually win. They don't actually do anything. It's all celebrity bullfit. You know what? They're the Kardashians of football. The Trump of football. All of that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I would only agree with you. And that's why I say you should watch the documentary but because you see how it all came about. But I would only agree with you if the Cowboys never had a dynasty or a legacy, if this was all just some hype they built up because they had this brilliant marketing plan, brilliantly, perfectly positioned. The Cowboys with sponsorships and the cheerleaders and the brand in itself and America's team with nothing to back it up. I would agree with you, but because of the legacy with Tom Landry and, and, and, and when he was at his, in his prime and with Jimmie Johnson and then Barry Switzer of the 90s. They were the team of the 90s, team of the 70s. I would disagree with you. I mean, I would agree with you, but because they have that, that's the little bit of hope for people to hold onto. You understand why they became what they did now. And so now they, they built their legacy. They built the brand off of two decades of greatness.

[Van Lathan]

Trump was hiding the agency.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And that's why he was able to win press and that's why he was able to get to where he Is.

[Van Lathan]

And that feeds my point. We can move on. But I'm just saying it's just very rare for somebody to not be able to. In a competitive sport, for a franchise to not be able to do shit for 30 years. For 30 years. And then every day we have to talk about them and all of this stuff. And then they get Michael Parsons. They trade them away.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Your hate is part of what fuels the brand.

[Van Lathan]

It's true. That's true.

[Quincy Avery]

That's true.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So stop hating. Just don't talk about it.

[Van Lathan]

America's team bullshit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The best thing you could do if you really hate the Cowboys is to not talk about them and not make them so relevant. Jerry. At this point, Jerry. I am convinced. Jerry Jones does not care about winning. He cares about the money and he cares about the attention. But good or bad. And the. And the hate fuels the franchise. It does.

[Van Lathan]

Because remember I told you when my. When my therapist said that the opposite of love is not hate. Excuse me. The opposite of hate. Wait. The opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is indifference. Indifference.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what it was.

[Van Lathan]

That's what she said. I can't remember. Shout out to Coley. All right, quick hitters. Donnie, let's go. This episode is brought to you by Universal Pictures. Would you sell your soul for greatness? What would you be willing to sacrifice? Find out on September 19th in the new Jordan Peele produced horror film him only in theaters. Starring Marlon Wayans as the greatest football player of all time and Tariq Withers as his up and coming protege. Directed by Justin Tipping and produced by Monkey Paw Productions. Never meet your idols himself. Hits theaters September 19th. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. Who says you can't be the topic of conversation for all the right reasons. The Hyundai Tucson hybrid pairs bold presence with advanced technology and sleek style. It's everything you didn't know you needed in an SUV and then some. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more.

[Donnie]

Americans looks like they're having less sex. The number of Americans having sex has dropped to record lows, according to the Institute for Family Studies. The IFS surveyed a thousand men and women and found that less than half, which is was 30, 37% were having sex weekly, compared to 55% in 90. There's also been a documented dip in young people having sex. A 2022 survey survey 2000 adults. 1 in 4 Gen Z adults said that they had yet to have partner sex. And then within this study, there's also a gender divide, men being more likely than women to report never having had partner sex. One in three men versus one in five women.

[Van Lathan]

Rachel, what you got?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, this is when it's a sex topic, you know it is all you. But I will say this has been. Oh, don't look around the room, Van.

[Van Lathan]

They know when it's a sex topic, it's all me. I'm the sex expert of higher learning.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Van. And you like it. Look at that face. Zoom in on that. Zoom in. Not even self proclaimed. We are giving you that title. No, I mean this. I see this and I'm not surprised by this. This has been an article. I've seen articles about this prior to this one that came out. But I think I know that they said it's been declining since the 90s. I think it's definitely since COVID And I think that there's a lot of things to it. I mean, I mean the 90s, I would say. I think it's social media. You know, social media is like the root of all evil. I think accessibility, not just in ways of social media and the Internet, but also accessibility to porn. I think the glamorization of sex in movies and television and books and whatever it may be and then people have it and then it's not quite what they thought it was going to be. I think digital connections and digital distractions satisfy maybe cravings for sex in ways like they fulfill it that with through, you know, digital distractions, like I said or whatever it may be. I think women that look at it in a different way, if I'm honest with you. I remember somebody told me one time if your man ever asks for sex, you always say yes. Like you always have to please your man in that way. And I don't think that women are subscribing to that anymore. I don't think that they feel like they have to say yes to please a man. I think that they, they see that they have more power and saying no. I think that maybe they value themselves in different ways where they don't feel like, you know, to like I said, to please a man or to get the attention of a man that they have to give themselves in that way. I think that there's a higher fear of STDs turned on a TV, HPV commercials everywhere, herpes, HIV, AIDS. I think. And then like I said, Covid. I think Covid has contributed to it as well. I think that I thought people would come out of COVID and realize that they needed human connection and human touch and the attention. But I think it had the Reverse effect where people really got complacent, being at home alone, allowing the screen to take the place of what people used to do. I think all of this contributes to less people, to people not having sex in the same way. People not valuing sex the same way. I should say it that way.

[Van Lathan]

First of all, in a relationship you don't have to do anything. You don't have to, you don't have to give somebody sex, you don't have to give somebody money, you don't have to pay somebody's bills, you don't have to do any of that stuff. Right, you don't have to do any of that stuff. But you should ask yourself though, if you are in a relationship and you don't want to do that stuff, then what does it mean?

[Rachel Lindsay]

What does it mean?

[Van Lathan]

For sure, not being at somebody's beck and call, not saying that. But I'm saying, if you don't want to spoil your partner, if you don't want to have sex with your partner, if you don't want to do certain things, what does that mean? Okay, Uncle Van time. It's time for Uncle Van to talk. Like lessons from Uncle Van. I can tell the kids out there why they're not fucking each other. They're not fucking each other because they're fucking themselves in every single way. The standards that we have, not just for human connection, but for human beings are so unbelievably high. Now we litigate everything about actual people through the lens of societal purity. And that stops us from seeing people as what they are. Most people in this world are just people that are trying. People that are synthesizing the information that's given to them by society, unlearning the things that they learn from the small towns, the big towns, the mid sized towns, from their parents and from all of their. And just trying to understand it. And what we do is we take people at one point in their life in a snapshot of who they are, and then we litigate everything about them. And then we, we create scenarios online to demonstrate the goodness or value of people. We go, should you be doing this with your partner? Should you be doing that with your partner? How should you treat this person? How should you treat that person? Everybody now wants human beings to be a sure thing. They want a finished product. They want somebody that's not capable of making a mistake that would hurt them. And that's just not how people are. People aren't like that. People are gonna hurt you on purpose and on accident. But on the other Side of like risking it and making a connection with people. It's something beautiful. It's beautiful. Bad sex is beautiful if it's consensual and if it's something that you want to do. Bad sex is actually a gift because bad sex teaches you what good sex.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Actually is if you communicate.

[Van Lathan]

Right? But look, my point is this, is that I could talk about this till I'm blue in the face and no one's gonna understand what I'm talking about. No one's gonna get it because we now can see the danger. We see it. One reason why you can't convince Americans that they are safe is because they see the crime, not just with their own eyes, right? You could be walking down a street in the world and feel completely safe. If someone shows you a video that says, hey, two days ago this happened around, you just don't feel safe anymore. You see it, you see the crime, you see the abuse, you see the trash, people. And so you're on the lookout for it in every single way. You're on the lookout for who's gonna hurt you, who's gonna take from you, who's gonna minimize from you, who's gonna make you feel small, who's gonna make you feel marginalized. You're looking for it, you're reactive. And I see this with these kids in dating. I had a conversation with some of the kids here, I call them the kids. Cause they're a lot younger than me about whether or not it was okay for a 29 year old person to date a 23 year old person. I'm like, are you guys fucking. Are you guys kidding me? Like a completely artificial standard is six years a completely artificial standard of human connection that they really believe in? I'm like, you guys are looking for reasons to build walls in between each other that don't really exist. All of this has to do with this. Like you're fucking yourselves. I grew up in a really dangerous time. I grew up in the 80s where my parents would say to me, I would leave the house and my parents would be like, be here before it get dark. That was it. Didn't have no phone on me, didn't have nothing. Right? All of the carnage that happened to the kids of my generation is why we got the rules that we got right? It's why it is like we were us and generations before us. It was like, all right, well, we need an Amber Alert to know when a kid has been kidnapped. We need kids to know what to stay away from. We need to know all of this, I get it. All of that worked, all of it made sense in terms of keeping people safe. But, man, if you don't think that life is about taking chances with people, if you don't think that life is about taking chances with love, taking chances with sex, taking chances with a job, taking chances with all of this stuff, with saying, I know enough about you to risk it, if you don't think that life is about that, then you might as well live in a room, four walls, hand sanitizer everywhere, and jack off until you die. Because the reality is, it's going to happen to you. The pain is going to happen, the hurt is going to happen, the disappointment is going to happen. It's part of it with human beings. But the first time it happens, now you run to Twitter, you tell everybody how trash the person is. The first time it happens, now you run to Instagram, you tell everybody how fucking upset you are. You tell everyone about every single trauma that you have, rather than dealing with that trauma and understanding that trauma and disappointment and broken connections and misconnections. It's a part of the human experience.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Very well said.

[Van Lathan]

And so to me, all of this is just saying that forcing perfection on people or trying to fit people into these different categories, it's just gonna make you lonely. Cause that's not what people are.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, it's this. You're so right in everything you said. And I think it goes back to what I'm saying about the accessibility that these young people have. So many different things, and it includes people that it creates this insatiable appetite to keep chasing for what their idea of perfection is. I was looking at something on one of these social media pages that I follow, and they were talking about how difficult it is today. Online dating, specifically, is what they're talking about, dating apps. Because you go on a date, you have this great time, this beautiful connection, and then you get home and maybe you get a little antsy and bored and you think, well, let me just get back on the app and see if there's somebody else who might look a different way or might have more interests that I have, or maybe lives a little bit closer to me, or maybe has this better job. And then you forget about the amazing time and the connection that you have to chase what seems more desirable to you. It's the insatiable nature of it all that I think adds to the loneliness, too. You keep chasing and chasing and chasing for that idea. Idea of what you think is perfect for you. And that's. And you're and you're just always going to be in that. That game of chasing it to the point where you're lonely. At the end of the day, I blame men.

[Van Lathan]

You blame who?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sorry, I just had to say that because that's what people think. I said I blame men.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, you probably do. Part of it. Part of it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I just have to. Because what. Because what? What's the conversation about this without me blaming men? At the end of the day, it's.

[Van Lathan]

It's a part of me. You're part of it. Look, fellas, just avoid the ones like that. Go out and have a good time. Donnie.

[Donnie]

Yeah, I feel like this was the biggest news story over Labor Day weekend. Until Tuesday, President Trump had not spoken publicly in about a week. And this past weekend, his public schedule was very light with a lot of time on the golf course. But like I said, he did speak Tuesday and this is what he had to say about the rumors of his demise.

[Van Lathan]

People didn't see you for a couple days, 1.3 million user engagements as of Saturday morning about your demise. Really? I didn't see that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I have heard.

[Donald Trump]

It's sort of crazy, but last week I did numerous news conferences, all successful. They went very well. Like this is going very well. And then I didn't do any for two days. And they said there must be something wrong with him. Biden wouldn't do him for months. You wouldn't see him. And nobody ever said there was ever anything wrong with him. And we know he wasn't in the greatest of shape. No, I heard that. I get reports now. You knew. I did an interview that lasted for about an hour and a half with somebody and everybody saw that was on one of your competitors. I did numerous shows and also did a number of truths, long truths, I think pretty poignant truths. No, I was very active over the weekend. They also knew I went out to visit some people at the, at the club that I own pretty nearby on the Potomac River. And no, I've been very active, actually, over the weekend. I didn't hear that one. That's pretty serious. Well, it's fake news. You know, it's just so. It's so fake. That's why the media has so little credibility. I didn't. I knew they were saying, like, is he okay? How's he feeling? What's wrong? I said, I just left. And it's also sort of a longer weekend. You know, it's Labor Day weekend. So I would say a lot of people know I was very active this Labor Day. I Had heard that, but I didn't hear it to that extent.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Didn't hear that one question, did you?

[Van Lathan]

Did you want him to be dead?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No. I'm never going to take pleasure in someone's health, failing or, you know, wish death upon somebody. And also because of that, let's just say I was that kind of person, where I'm like, they're so evil, I hope they die. That's not going to solve the problem. You still have the same. If your issue is that you don't like what Trump has done to this country, Trump could not do it by himself. Still have the same Congress in place. You still have the same Supreme Court in place. You still have. J.D. vance would take his position, who would just do the exact same thing and maybe even worse. It ain't gonna get better, so it's not going to change anything. You have a smirk on your face. I'll finish this and then I'm gonna let you say it because I'm really curious as to what's behind that smirk. I'm not taking pleasure in the fact. In the fact that people thought he died or wishing death upon him, but I do take pleasure in some. I love how bothered Trump is about this. I love. Because one thing we know about Trump is that he values aesthetics. We know he values beauty and being good looking and all these things. So the fact that people are talking about his ugly, bruised hand and making it even uglier with bad concealer, where the shade changes every hour is hard for him. The fact that people are saying he has cankles, I know it just makes his blood boil. And I love this. I love that people are making jokes about it because he places so much weight on beauty and they're basically calling him ugly, which shouldn't bother most people. But for Trump, I know it gets under his skin. The other thing that I take pleasure in is that he is becoming a victim of the reality that he created. I'm not saying that Biden didn't have health issues. The things that Trump was saying about Biden did turn out to be true. But he was constantly feeding the media about his age and how old he is and how slow he walks and how he trips and all these things. And he was begging other people to pay attention to it. And he had all these conspiracy things out about him. And now that is exactly what people are doing to Trump. He built this world. He built this reality. So now people are analyzing every little detail about him. So I say he's a victim of it. And I Love it. The same people have conspiracy theories. Oh, he died. Oh, his health. Trump wants to make people think he's a superhero and he's invincible. He looks weak, he looks ugly. These are the worst things for someone who is vain and a narcissist in the way that Trump is. And I do take pleasure in this.

[Van Lathan]

So I was smirking because I really disagree with the first point. I think if Trump was gone, you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Want him to die.

[Van Lathan]

No, but I think. Well, let me tell you, I'm gonna come to that in a second. I think if he were gone, everything changes. I'll tell you why it doesn't change. Obviously, it can't change structurally right now, because J.D. vance becomes president, things are the way they are in the House and the Senate and really in America. However, I think the MAGA movement dies with Donald Trump. I definitely do. I don't think anybody else has nearly the gravitas that the President has to continue the MAGA movement. The movement, like most strong men in that situation, North Korea has been pretty good about handing it off to different people. But most strong men in that type of situation, you see in Syria, too, with Assad and his son and stuff like that. But in this type of deal, a movement that is so focused and based around one guy, he named the movement. The movement is about his sensibility. It's about his worldview. Donald Trump came out and he said to the people, when inside maga, when he bombed Iran and they were mad about it, he says, I decide what America first is. It doesn't matter if you think it's America First. If I say HB1 visas are cool, they're cool. If I say bombing Iran is cool, it's cool. I decide what America first is. It is MAGA ness. Trumpism is a dictator state of thought, culture, and allegiance. He is a cultural dictator right now as he tries to become an actual one. But he is their dear leader. And once he is gone, the next person that gets vaulted into that will not be able to follow. It'll be like Kalen DeBoer at Alabama. He's the Nick Saban of that shit. And when no Nick Saban is there, the entire structure of the program. We got Quincy Avery. He'll talk college football later on in the show. The entire structure, structure of the program, it falls apart. And it will fall apart when there's no more Trump. That is true. I did not wish death on him either. And you know why I didn't? Because I'm black and from the South.

[Rachel Lindsay]

100% and being black, I don't do that.

[Van Lathan]

And from the south particularly means that you have a specific relationship to death and to bad things happening to people. And when you have that proximity to death and to bad things happening to people, you intrinsically and culturally put yourself in the position of the people that bad things are happening to. And that orients the way you look at the world. That's one thing. And then there's a second thing. And it's the thing that, to me, is a lot more difficult for us to talk about. Sometimes white supremacy conditioned black people to not wish the worst on the people that are oppressing them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, for sure.

[Van Lathan]

White supremacy. A lot of the reason why there are some people that are listening to this and are like, how could anyone wish that on anybody, particularly on the people that are trying to make you drink shitty water and throw you in jail? Is because white supremacy conditioned black people, I'll say it again. To not wish the worst on their enemy, Right? Not wish the worst on their oppressor. So when we are thinking about the people that are taking our rights, throwing us in jail, beating the shit out of us, we don't think in terms of their end. We don't think we need to wipe these people out. We don't think we need to take these people's power and put them in the position that we're in. We think we need to reconcile with them. We think we need to figure out how to build a society with them, because that's what we've always done. But I'm letting people know that's not the way they think about you. It's not. And we have hundreds of years of evidence to back this up. What they think about you is kill them, imprison them, sterilize them, and keep them quiet. That's how they look at you. That's how they look at you, and that's how they've been looking at you. And that's how they're going to continue to look at you. Especially the more noise that you make. The way they look at you is the best nigga is a dead nigga. The best nigga is a nigga that we can control. The best nigga is a nigga that can't make any more niggas or is in a place working for us. They look at you and your life and they wish the worst on you. So even if you don't have the capability to wish the worst on them because there's a higher power that dictates that you be better or There's a spirituality that you connect to that tells you the energy you put out coming back to you. I'm not telling you you're wrong, but I am telling you you're in a one way conversation with supremacy and oppression. And that conversation that you are having is life and death. So I'm not saying that because I just told people I didn't do it. I'm not saying that I wished death on President Trump. I'm not saying that I did that. I did not. I can't do that. It's un Southern of me to do that. But I know intellectually that white supremacy wishes death on me. So the question that we should have, the conversation that we should have culturally around this is how do we serve ourselves? What do we do? Are we in the situation to where we essentially do not want to become the thing that we hate? I understand that, but is there also a part of this. I've never wished death on anybody in my life and I won't wish death on anybody in my life. But is there also a part of this that perhaps our need to be morally, energetically and spiritually clean puts us in a disadvantage against people who don't feel that same need, against people who will leave church and lynch you? Who. People who will lynch you before church then, like I thought about this anyway.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There'S nothing in me that is going to make me want to wish that. Now. That doesn't mean that when you're gone, I can't be happy.

[Van Lathan]

See, even that, even that, that feels weird for me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It doesn't mean that, well, my life might be better or things might be better for other people. Like, you're gone. I'm not gonna mourn you. I might be like, huh, okay, but this. But I wanna say something about what you said about maga, and if Trump is gone, then you think MAGA goes with it. I think maga, as in the movement, might go. But the problem with what Trump has done and the reason I say that nothing will change if Trump, if the rumors were true and Trump had passed away, is because Trump has done such a good job of infecting white people with the fear of the great replacement. And that is something that is going to live on even when Trump has gone out of office, however he gets out of office, whether it be sickness, death or his time has expired and he doesn't really try to go for a third term. That fear of being replaced is so that infection is so deeply in them that it is spreading through not just people, but into policies and into government. And that fear is what makes the Supreme Court, makes the decisions that they make. That fear is what keeps Congress so partisan and what keeps these elected officials fighting for their place to reign in society because they are so fearful of losing that influence. That is something that has always existed. Right, because that's white supremacy. But now there are things that back it up, whether it's congressionally or legally that allow that to ring. And that's gonna live on past Trump. And that's why I say, yeah, MAGA might. People aren't waving their Trump flags. People aren't wearing their Trump shirts. People aren't saying make America great again or Trump was right about everything. But that feeling and that desire to want to stay on top and to continue to push people down. And the power that Trump has given them, not just the confidence, the actual power to be able to function that way in society, is going to live on until somebody else gets in power and starts chipping at it away. That's the problem with what Trump has done. That's how I feel. So MAGA may be gone, but the.

[Van Lathan]

Feeling, But I mean, what you're talking about is America. America is built on the death of 25 million indigenous people, correct? The enslavement of black people. Like that's what the feeling that you're talking about.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But you can't deny. But I'm not. It's past the feeling because it has infected policies and the law always has. Okay, but you can't deny that things are rolling back and they're moving and they're continuing to put things in place. Affirmative action isn't the same. Women's rights aren't the same. Women don't have right over their reproductive rights.

[Van Lathan]

Let's take those two issues though.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And they're. And they're continuing to. And they're continuing to put things up in front of a court that is eventually Voting Rights Act. We talk about all the.

[Van Lathan]

But let's take those two things, though. Let's take those three things that you just named. Three things. None of that has anything to do with Trumpism or maga. They're already working on that. It's just, it's just a fact. Like if we look, hold on. If we, now, if we look. If we look at how there was a 50 year battle on abortion and that 50 year old battle was waged by the Federalist Society and Leonard Leo and the rest of the people that were able to dump billions and billions and billions of dollars into aligning the right with the Pro life movement and making it a staple. Making the pro life movement a staple of right thought and Republicanism. If you go look back at voting rights, Shelby versus Holder was, I think, in 2013. So that comes before. That is, you're talking about political activism that exists at the grassroots level of. I wouldn't say the grassroots level, at the corporate level of Republican organizing that has had money thrown into it for decades. Right. There's literally not an issue that came to pass under Trump, besides maybe the immigration stuff that he was able to wave a wand on, that they hadn't been baking for a long time, Like a long time. These are things that are fundamental. They became fundamental to right thought. They became even immigration. It became fundamental. We go back to immigration decisions in the early 1900s when people were talking about what it means to be an American, eliminate immigration. It became fundamental to conservative thought. They've been working on all of these things. What I look at as being Trumpism and being MAGA is a specific ability to galvanize the right to destroy dissent between them, number one, to get complete political consensus and intellectual consensus between them. Right. To make anyone completely scared of saying, I don't agree with that, or I don't agree with this or anything. A central political theory that is oriented around just what one guy thinks. All of the other things that we're talking about have existed in conservative thought for a long time. They've existed in conservative thought for a while now.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What's the one thing then that Trump is. That is separate from these issues?

[Van Lathan]

What do you mean?

[Rachel Lindsay]

So you're saying? So I'm saying that I think that they're all connected. You're saying that Trumpism and MAGA is centered around one guy and what one guy thinks. What I'm saying to you is then what is the one thing that Trump thinks or that he represents that's separate from the conservative movement that we've been seeing, which is to keep whiteness in place?

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so what you said earlier, as far as making the people believe that they're going to be replaced, that's rhetorical and that's true. Right. I think that past generations of Republicans have eaten around the corners of that or eaten around the edges of that, should I say, and not said it directly to people. So they would say, hey, they would use the welfare queen. They'd say, hey, the welfare queen is like, whatever, whatever, or this is welfare or whatever. They wouldn't directly say, hey, black people are doing this, or Mexican people are doing this, or these are the people Fascist talk. Blood of soil. Blood, soil. Fascist type directly. Because they didn't think that their constituency would. That it would be palatable then to talk like that. They thought maybe we were too close or maybe the Soviet Union being such a robust villain in the Cold War, you couldn't be too close to those guys. You couldn't be too. Couldn't talk directly that way. So they would say the thing but not actually say it. We got to a point where really America was having a very direct cultural conversation with itself. We were asking what we actually were. Obama was getting out of office and we were like, are we a post racial nation where we no longer have these questions? Do we sit down and have a beer summit with cops that have come to the House and handcuffed us when we're the president of prestigious universities? Do we just have a beer in the White House and discuss it? Or are we in an existential fight for the cultural future of the country? We were having this conversation with ourself and Obama was saying, we could have a beer and discuss this. And Trump was saying, no, you can't. Those are the people that are trying to take your country over and I am the person that is going to stop it. But it was an I, not a we. It was not a we. It was not me. Mitch McConnell. This person, this person, this person, this person is gonna stop it. It's not a we, it's a me. I'm going to stop it. Everything that I say is the thing that you do. Everything that I do is the way that you live your life. Me, me, me, me, me. Not them, me. And he has kept it that way. He has everyone that has even tried in any way to be his rhetorical or influential equal. He has sunned them quick and sent them back to their room, giving them a nickname and a new set of directives. Get the fuck out of here. And humiliated a lot of his would be successors to a degree that they are now permanently injured. When Trump is gone, the people that are going to take over the Republican Party are going to be the Brian Kemps. It's going to be the people that laid low and were not even anointed by him and able to come back and give America something that's different and more palatable. They'll go right back. Because the corporate interests that are involved in the Republican Party, they do not like the fact that they cannot really control Donald Trump, even though they kind of do. They definitely do. But the fact that they can't make him do what they want him to do. You know what they do, they basically do. But I guess what I'm saying is they would prefer somebody that read from the script that they gave them and the politicians that do that, they will be up for that. This is, it's just the way I see it. Trumpism, the MAGA movement, all of that stuff. Some of the policies might endure for a while, but I'm telling you, once he's gone, once he's gone, there's not a second act. There's nobody that could do it like him. Doesn't mean that things are gonna, we're gonna get normalcy. It just means that it doesn't matter if it's Rubio, if it's Vance, it doesn't matter if it's God, for Nancy Mace, it doesn't matter who. All of those guys that try to do a Trump impression after he's gone, they're going to fail. It's not going to work.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, we shall see.

[Van Lathan]

We will see. Donnie. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai, who says you can't be the topic of conversation for all the right reasons. The Hyundai Tucson hybrid pairs bold presence with advanced technology and sleek style. It's everything you didn't know you needed in an SUV and then some. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This episode is brought to you by ebay. We all have that piece, the one that's so you. You've basically become known for it. And if you don't yet fashionistas, you'll find it on ebay. Ebay. That Miu Miu red leather bomber, the Cousteau Barcelona cowboy top? Or that Patagonia fleece in the 2017 colorway. All these finds are all on ebay, along with millions of more main character pieces backed by authenticity guarantee. Ebay is the place for pre loved and vintage fashion. Ebay Things people love.

[Donnie]

Ken Klippenstein reports that the Department of Homeland Security has requested military assistance from for upcoming ICE operations in Chicago. This is according to a for official use only memo that he obtained, which also says that a military advance team has already arrived. The document requests immediate Department of defense support for ICE's enforcement and removal operations activities to address, quote, public safety and national security. The memo also suggests that the support will be provided by active duty troops. And it makes no mention of Illinois National Guards. This is just Ken Klippenstein reporting this. I haven't seen it in any other news sources. Trump spoke yesterday and appeared to talk back or walk back his claims that he's going to be sending troops to Chicago and Baltimore. But it's just kind of up in the air. We'll see what happens.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Wait, Trump walked it back? I thought he said that it was going to happen and just didn't provide a win.

[Donnie]

Yes. Since that he mentioned specifically that governors, he acknowledged that governors may have power to prevent this to happen. But this is also before this memo was obtained from Ken Klippenstein. So we're getting, like, conflicting reports.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So he's just now saying that governors have the power to protest it. I wonder if that. To not allow it to happen. And I wonder if this comes hand in hand with the lawsuit that was filed in California. And not the lawsuit, but what was filed in California. And the California federal court said that Trump is not allowed to do what he did in California in regards to deploying the National Guard without the consent from the state.

[Van Lathan]

You know what the interesting thing about this is? What happens when somebody says no to Trump? Well, okay, when we're talking about, obviously, he tests the limits of federal power all the time, but when we're talking about troops on the street, National Guard, beefing up all of these different agencies and having them go to places they want to go, you have mayors, you have governors, you have people in these various places that theoretically have the power to stop that from happening. But what happens when they say no? Because what Trump normally is able to do in D.C. he could use the fact that D.C. is the nation's capital.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Home state rule.

[Van Lathan]

Home state rule. Federal has things going on. And then he got rhetorical and very direct support from Mayor Bowser, who is one of the most catastrophic disappointments that I can think of just recently. And I'm waiting to hear the justification of Mayor Biles and her decision to.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Essentially, she's kind of said it.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, give it to me. I mean, I listened to what she said, but I didn't really see it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, in a roundabout way, she was afraid of Trump taking away the power that DC has to run its own government, which is granted to them under the Constitution and under the Home Rule Act. So at any point, Trump could have Congress take that away. And she's saying it's better to. And I do not agree with this, by the way, but she's saying it's better to work with the government rather than Trump work against her and take away the powers that the city, Washington, D.C. has, to vote and elect their officials and run their own government. That's what she's saying.

[Van Lathan]

So I had her to say that. I want to hear her in interview. I want to hear her do a sit down with someone and kind of explain that. And the reason why is because, you know, I'm sure that she has an intellectual and political explanation as to why she's done what she's done. I'm sure she has. But it is completely devoid of context and it's completely and utterly devoid of any understanding of what the stakes are. It just doesn't. The stakes are legitimately freedom. Like, legitimately freedom. No one in the world loves crime. No one in the world loves crime. No one in the world loves crime. No one in the world loves crime. Everybody wants to feel safe. But the reality is we can look at safety in two ways. We can look at safety as investing into people and fixing social ills that are the root causes of crime, or we can look at safety as sending armed jackboots into neighborhoods to harass black people. And Muriel Bowser said the latter is okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, the context is there.

[Van Lathan]

She said the latter is cool. She said that we're better off with armed people in masks rolling up to people selling water and going, what are you doing out here?

[Rachel Lindsay]

She didn't co sign the mask thing. She actually did say something against the mask. But her hitching her wagon can't be.

[Van Lathan]

A little bit pregnant.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no. I'm just saying she outright said it. I just want to be clear.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

If we're going to put it all out there. She did specifically say she doesn't agree with the mask. I'm not agreeing with her. I just want to put it all out there. She did say that. But you are correct. You can't just do a little bit of it. You can't say that. But then hitch your wagon and cosign everything that Trump is doing and then say, go take it even further and say crime is down because of what Trump is doing in our city.

[Van Lathan]

Which, by the way, is a surrender to propaganda. It's a surrender to the propaganda of the strongman dear Leader. It's a surrender to that. It actually affirms what he's saying. What Muriel Bowser is saying right now is that every city in America would be better off 100% with Donald Trump being able to send the military or federal agencies into the city on the ground to patrol the city and put Americans essentially in the military state.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, she's against what people want. Your citizens don't want that.

[Van Lathan]

She's giving the whole store away. She's completely undermining the consent of the governed. She's giving the whole thing away. And this is another thing to me specific about Trumpism is she was in a rhetorical battle with him. Because if she was in a structural battle with him, then what she would have done was what elected people do is listen to their constituency. But she was in a battle, whatever. Like, what I'm saying is, I'm looking at this now, and this part of it, this dictatorship, it's a virus. And it's a virus that will exist until somebody fights back against the virus. And then we will really see what is interesting. Will Donald Trump send troops into places where his ability to do so. We saw this in California a little bit. Is either murky or downright illegal. And who do the troops listen to? What happens in these cities? Where do these various allegiances lie? And the real question is, how bad does this get?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well. Oh, go ahead. Sorry.

[Van Lathan]

That's it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, you know, I do not agree. I have to be saying this. I do not agree with anything that Mayor Bowser is doing in Washington, D.C. and she's trying to hide under the Home Rule Act. And I have to do this to work with the president. There are words, there are ways to work with the administration. This is not the way. I understand you're hiding behind the fear of losing control or losing the people's control to govern their city because D.C. is monitored in a way or ruled in a way that other states aren't. Right. Like California can go to federal court and say, hey, this is illegal under this act or under the Constitution because of this, this, this and this. And then the court can say, you're correct, Trump is creating a national police force where he is the chief of police that is past his power. But she's trying to hide under DC Being different from other cities. And this is the wrong way. What I will say, to answer your question about saying no, and what people can do is what's going to happen is it's going to go up to the Supreme Court, and that's what Trump wants it to do. Federal court in California has said, you can't do this. They will probably appeal it, and then it'll go to the Supreme Court. And what will the Supreme Court do? Will the Supreme Court rewrite the Constitution and define what Trump is able to do under the Insurrection Act? I don't know. We don't know if we're going by history. They will rewrite it and define it in a way where he is allowed to deploy the National Guard or federalize the police at his beck and call for whatever reason he wants to. But you know what, it's. It's like I. This is, I'm sure this has been talked about and this is an obvious thing, but what bothers me so much about the pomp and circumstance. I mean, there's a number of things, right? Obviously, tanks and troops being on the streets. The citizens don't want it. Him acting just as that judge said in federal court, federalizing the police, making them. Making himself the chief of police and creating this national police force, all that is wrong. But for a party that stands so much on children, that is all about protecting children and for the benefit of children, if you are going to deploy deployment, the National Guard to protect people, why do you not have this same enthusiasm to protect children in school? I know I'm like jumping around, but I was really thinking about that. And it's like we're talking about you going into cities that aren't even in the top 10 most cities with the most crime. But just in the last couple of weeks, children were murdered while attending and praying in school. And we have moved on for you to federalize and create this national police force. But you care nothing about children and parents who are afraid to send their children to school. But you are the party who has been so big about protecting children. But there's nothing that you're talking about about using your government or your power to protect the children in any way. It's just upset.

[Quincy Avery]

Yep.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, obviously they don't give a fuck about kids. I'm telling you, I'm saying it right now. The right. You guys don't care about kids. Like you don't. The leading cause of death of kids is firearms. It's the leading cause of death kids. It's firearms. So I mean, if you. So we can talk about kids caring about kids insofar as those kids being safe in school, like actual safe. But what about caring about the kids so that the kids feel safe in school?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Being safe in school means nothing's gonna happen to you. You're actually safe. Feeling safe in school means I have the feeling that I am in a place where I am safe. And that's profound. It's profound because the feeling of safety is what we're finding out in society is more important than actual material safety. Because I can tell you right now, in all of these cities, we've talked about this, we've dove into these numbers. These cities are so much safer than they were 20, 30 years ago. You're so much safer. Even during the spike in Covid, you saw crime just completely do like this since the early to mid-90s. But people are able to make them feel unsafe, so they make decisions that are at cross purposes with their freedom. Children being able to go to school and feel safe and feel like they're in a place where if an adult does something to them, they can tell somebody, where there's not going to be a gunman that's going to enter the school and kill them and their friends after recession, where they have the best type of education. And I'll tell you something else. Those kids feeling safe from a physical standpoint, meaning they're safe because they aren't hungry.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right? Right.

[Van Lathan]

They feel like they're in a place where there is food for them, where there is good books for them. They feel like they're in a place where their childhood can be accepted and then turned into citizenry. If you cared about that, you would move with a completely different set of priorities. You'd want kids fed and you wouldn't say things like a congressman in Florida said, well, if you want to eat at school, go get a job at Taco Bell. You wouldn't cut the snap benefits of their parents. There's so many things you wouldn't do. But obviously, the answer is that they care more about the NRA than they do about their own children. And that is in the tradition of white supremacy in this country, starting with guys like Thomas Jefferson, who allowed his kids to be slaves. The economic institution was more important than his progeny. And so to me, when I look at them make decisions that. That are either cynical because they're corporate or cynical because they're white supremacists, I go, it's Tuesday.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I do wanna stay uncorrected because I said the Trump administration is not doing anything. They're not using their power in any kind of way to protect children at school, make them feel protected, whether it's a feeling or whether it's physical. Because the Justice Department and their leadership is seriously considering whether it can use its rulemaking authority to follow onto Trump's determination to bar military service by transgender people and declare that people who are transgender are mentally ill and can lose their Second Amendment rights to possess firearms. So I stand correct that they are doing something. They may have found the answer.

[Van Lathan]

So what I urge you guys to do is to look into some of these school shootings and look at some of the red flags that were ignored and some of the ways that. But remember all of this stuff, though, Red flag laws, all of this stuff, you know, the gun control community, the NRA backed steroids community is just going to go crazy when you say that stuff. Okay, Two things just popped up on the old Twitter. I want to throw them at you, Rachel. One's from a friend of the show, Ryan Clark. Okay, Twitter's going crazy right now because Ryan Clark said Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Peyton Manning weren't generational talents.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Ryan said that.

[Van Lathan]

He said that Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Peyton Manning were not generational talents.

[Rachel Lindsay]

How is Tom Brady not a generational talent?

[Van Lathan]

Donnie, how is Tom Brady? Can you play the sound? Can you play the sound from Ryan Clark? Can you find this? I'm going to send this to you right now because this is. I don't know if people know. Rachel and Van. We're football experts. I don't know if you guys. I don't know if you guys know this, but Rachel, like here on Higher learning, I'm not sure if you guys know. We're football experts here on higher Learning. This could be known as higher learning chalk talk. We're the experts of football, the foremost experts in football. This right here is the number one football podcast in the world. Higher Learning. Number one football podcast in the world. Donnie. We're going to listen to what our friend Ryan has to say and then we're going to respond to it as the number one football expert, Rachel Lindsay and the number two football expert, Van Lathan in the world. We're going to respond to this. I think John Elway was a generational talent. I think Patrick Mahomes is a generational talent. I don't think Tom Brady, I don't think Drew Brees, I don't think Peyton Manning are generational talents. I think Andrew Luck in ended up being a generational talent. I don't think there's a ton of them out there, but so then what.

[Donnie]

Then how does one in your eyes.

[Van Lathan]

Be a generational talent? Because there's not a lot of difference.

[Quincy Avery]

Production.

[Van Lathan]

Let me, let me, let me, let me chime in here because I love the argument back and forth between y'. All. I ain't trying to get in the way of it. You just did. The operative word here is do you believe Arch Manning is a generational talent? He could be, but he's not. Why not yet. Whatever you do to say that he is to say nothing. Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. This is nothing because he didn't even give Ryan the chance to. Unless we.

[Van Lathan]

Donnie, was it over? Was it over? Yeah.

[Donnie]

There's only a couple seconds left of.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That, but I don't want to hear Stephen A. Smith. I want to hear Ryan's criteria of what makes you a generational talent, because that is the most random list of John Del Way, Patrick Mahomes, and Andrew Luck who retired early.

[Van Lathan]

What do you mean it's random list? What are you talking about?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, Tom Brady. I don't understand how you don't, John. Okay. Cause this is what I was thinking at first when he was doing the list. I was. I was like, okay, he named John Elway. Maybe he named John Elway because John Elway was before our time. And I do think that there's this.

[Van Lathan]

Thing of before John Elway was a scintillating quarterbacking talent.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no. Can I finish? Can I finish? I think that it's. John Elway is a generational talent. But he did. But then he named Patrick Mahomes because my thought was, oh, you're naming people from before our era. And I think it's easier. Like, it's almost like the Michael Jordan, LeBron thing. Like, Michael Jordan's always going to be greater. And I think this generation will always say LeBron is greater because it's. They grew up with it. It's like a different. It's a different thing as a mindset, is what I'm saying. John Elway is totally a generational talent. Not taken away from that. But then he ain't Patrick Mahomes. And I'm like, okay, well, that argument's gone because he's currently in. Currently still playing. I would argue that he's a generational, generational talent as well. I don't know how Tom Brady is not on that list when he is arguably one of the best quarterbacks we've ever seen. So what is the criteria for a generational talent is. And I wish Stephen A. Hadn't interrupted so Ryan could have explained that because I don't understand the list. It's hard to even have an opinion on it because what are we basing this on? Are we just naming our favorite players that we think are generational talents? Are we basing it on some type of reason?

[Van Lathan]

All right, so this is the way I look at it. So John Elway, just for the kids at home. John Elway was a freak. A freak. Okay. When John Elway was leaving college, getting ready to. John Elway was baseball and football. Like a freak. Rocket arm, insanely mobile, incredibly competitive. He was like a once in a lifetime package of athletic traits. That's a fact. Same thing with Patrick Mahomes. Only Patrick Mahomes was in a situation at Texas Tech. Where it wasn't as, I guess, evident. Andrew Luck, well, not evident his physical gifts, but he didn't win a ton of games and have like a ton of success, probably because of Cliff Kingsbury at Texas Tech. Andrew Luck, same thing, big, mobile, strong, and also had it between the ears. Because I can give you other guys who have freakish arms, right? Freakish arms. But the question for those guys was like, did they have it between the ears? So there's, I think for me, when I look at a generational quarterbacking talent, I'm looking at all of this physical talent that's refined enough to the point to where it has shown itself. Like you would look at somebody like Anthony Richardson who came out a couple of years ago from Florida. He had all of the physical gifts, free card, he could run all of that stuff. But was it necessarily the type of refined and finished quarterbacking talent that you would then say, that's going to be a slam dunk generational talent in the NFL, right? So you look at Elway, you look at Luck, you look at Patrick Mahomes, which Patrick Mahomes is an interesting one because there were things that Patrick Mahomes did when he got to the NFL that I don't think people expected him to do. I don't think they expected him to do these things when he got to the NFL. I don't think they expected Patrick Mahomes to be able to read a defense pre snap and diagnose a defense post snap like he can now. I think a lot of people were surprised by that. But this is what I would say to my friend Ryan, if he's just talking about the package that I'm talking that I just mentioned. They're only those guys every now and again, guys that have all of those physical tools. But then they've also refined their skill set to the point to where they've proven it in college or whatever, whatever platform they're on, whatever it would have to be college, right? So that doesn't come around that often. So I guess you could say those are generational talents. However, with somebody like Tom Brady, what I would ask Ryan is, is there such thing as being so mentally and competitively gifted that that offsets maybe the way John Elway could run, the way Patrick Mahomes could run or move or their arm strength, is it possible that Drew Brees is so freakishly accurate, like otherworldly, superhumanly accurate, that that's worth him not being able to run that him that. Him not having the strongest arm, that that one Thing makes him, he is generationally gifted as an accurate quarterback or with Tom Brady, the freakish competitiveness, the otherworldly leadership instincts, the accuracy there, the toughness, the mentality, all of that stuff. Does that outweigh some of the physical gifts? Because a lot of the quarterbacks that he's talking about right now with Mahomes and Elway and Luck, those guys were incredibly physically gifted. Are there non physical gifts that could even out some of the physical gifts that those other guys have and make them generational talents? You're not going to see. The only problem with it is you're not going to really see that until a guy's been in the league like five, 10 years. You're not going to be able to, you're not going to be able to measure that pre draft. You're going to have to see that after, you know, so that's the thing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We don't know because he got cut off.

[Van Lathan]

I'm just, I'm just, you know, if, if he's just talking about from a physical standpoint, then Tom Brady did not have a rocket crazy arm. He could not run at all. He looked crazy when he was running. Drew Brees did not have a rocket crazy arm. Couldn't really run it like Peyton Manning.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You have to. All of his. Tom Brady is in the. You just, you just have to, it's just, you have to include him. What's the other thing that popped up on Twitter?

[Donnie]

Let's get into some mess.

[Quincy Avery]

Brittany Renner.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, messiness. And oh. P.J.

[Donnie]

Washington of the Dallas Mavericks. They're recorded by Brittany arguing over the weekend about their son, P.J. jr. Let's hear this audio.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, hold on. Pause. This is what we're not doing. So every time that he does this, I'm gonna record this because that's not okay. No, the thing is this is the third, this is the third time he's done it. This is the third time he's done it. He doesn't want to go with you. So actually show up, actually show up and do something then with him. Cuz he does this every time. No, it's not. No, it's not.

[Van Lathan]

So if you guys are listening, there is. The exchange of the child is happening. And when Brittany was giving the child to pj, the little baby, young man, young boy, child, baby toddler boy, he starts crying. Britney and her mother, if you haven't seen the video, they then follow PJ to his car. He's in the car with his new girl. And then an argument ensues What'd you say?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I didn't hear you. Say it again.

[Van Lathan]

Suck my dick if you had one.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And maybe I would. Ass. What the you looking at? Get your ass out my driveway. That's the mom pay for you. You don't pay for either. $170,000 for your hoe with $11,000 in your son's bank account. $11,000 in your son'S bank account. $170.

[Van Lathan]

And that was PJ's girl. And then the video ends there. Rachel.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, Brittany Renner. So I kept saying that was the mom because the mom was recording. It was her and her mom talking. And then at the end, the other woman, the new voice you hear is the wife of. I can't think of her name, but the wife of P.J. washington.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, they're married.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are they not married?

[Van Lathan]

I didn't know that they're married. I mean, I'm. They're married. Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They are married, right? Yeah, I think that adds to it. Right? Because he. The reason I specifically say wife, because she is one. But also, Brittany Renner and him had a child in 2021. I don't know the ins and outs of what. The demise of their relationship, but they broke up. He goes on to marry this new woman. They have kids and a family. And as it was also reported, he. He plays for the Dallas Mavericks. Just signed multimillion dollar deal over a number of years.

[Van Lathan]

90 million bucks. $90 million extension.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So I really think that Brittney Renner, she wanted this to be her viral moment. And it is. Here we are talking about it, but it didn't do what I think she thought it was going to do. She was so caught up in the moment where she was focused on trying to make him and his wife the father of a job. PJ and his wife look bad that she forgot the whole point, which is her child's well being. And I know we don't know. I just said we don't know the ins and outs of why Brittany and PJ broke up. We don't know the ins and outs of their relationship when it comes to co parenting. But I'll tell you what I saw and I heard in this moment that she so badly wanted us to see. A father came to pick up his child. She acknowledges that the child has reacted to the father picking him up. His father picking him up by crying multiple times, which insinuates that he has come up come multiple times to pick up his child. Children cry when they leave their parents. Like that's a thing we don't know why specifically. She's trying to insinuate something else. But children cry when they have to leave. A mom or a dad or something that they like. That's normal. And I think in this situation, rather than encouraging him, like calling out, oh, he's crying. This is what he does, she should probably be encouraging him maybe not to cry, but instead she's adding fuel to the fire by insinuating, he cries every time you pick him up, he doesn't want to go with you. Again, I have to add, give, put context onto this, but I would think that this is a father who's picking up his child. He has other children, he's trying to spend time with his child. You're recording with the camera in your face while your mother and you are yelling and screaming and saying, he doesn't want to go. But instead, instead of trying to make this a calming situation for a crying child who's clearly upset for whatever reason, in this moment, I feel like instead of being an antagonist, you should be providing a nurturing situation. You and your mother are yelling explicits. The wife then starts yelling. You're screaming in front of the child. And at the end of the day, I said at the beginning of this, the point of this is the child's well being. The child is gonna be the one who suffers the scars from this. The child is going to be the one that remembers this, this hostile situation. And you were more focused on having a camera and recording when really all it showed to me was that I feel like you were the problematic one in this. Instead of putting your child first in this moment, you put your ego over your child, you put social media over your child, you put yourself over your child and you got the attention that you wanted. But at what cost? Who is it that suffers in this moment? It's the child. I feel like I just need Brittney Renner to take a beat and figure out who she is, what she wants in this life and what her priorities are. Because in the moment, in this moment particularly, it did not feel like it was her child. It felt like it was having a viral moment. So whether she figure out, needs to figure out what her priorities are in regards to whether she wants social media fame, whether it's some religion, whether it's a man, whether it's herself, she just needs to figure it out. I'm tired of seeing Brittany Renner in these type of situations.

[Van Lathan]

Hmm. I just am in all situations, in every situation, we just gotta think about the kid all the time. All the time in every situation. You know, I've seen people that said, what type of frustration would have led someone to do this? This is one that I think was not along the battle of the sexist lines that I thought it was going to be. This is one that I don't think that very many people had ambiguous thoughts on. I think people looked at that and just felt sad all the way around. Because there's a standard that we have to hold ourselves to as adults, no matter how things get, how hard things get in relationships, you know, a standard that we have to hold ourselves to. And that standard is always remembering that the ones that are following us are the ones that, like, we're in control of, that we teach, that have put their thought and their safety in us, and we have to be considerate of that. We have to consider them. I don't know what's going on with Brittany and pj, but, you know, I've seen it before. Just give you an example. Normally that's a joke. Like, I've seen it before. If things are good between the parents, which is another reason why you want to make sure things are good between the people that you're co parenting with, because the context of things change. I've seen before where that's a joke where I've seen a mother hold a baby or a father hold a baby, and then the mom come over and reach for the baby, and then the baby cries.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And then we laugh, right? Or the mother have the baby and daddy come over and reach for the baby, and the baby cries, and we go, aw, that baby love mama. Aw, that baby love daddy. We laugh. We laugh. Oh, look at this. It's actually funny sometimes that the baby cries when they leave mom or cry. But you know what exists in those situations? Trust. Yeah, trust between the two people that are parenting. A familial trust around what's going on. Trust exists. And when you look at this, there's clearly no trust there that the baby is crying because it's just because of a regular reason. There has to be something nefarious. And then we have to see it because we have to have the same opinion of PJ Washington that she has, which we ain't in their business. We don't know what's going on. Right. But I think from the video, the only thing that you really can glean from the video is that the situation is dysfunctional. There's no way to look at that video and then say, who's right and.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We shouldn't be and we shouldn't be privy to it.

[Van Lathan]

Right. And so the only thing, the only thing we can look at is that only thing we can see from that video is that that's dysfunctional. And we would hope and pray, pray that that is a functional situation for her, for him, but most importantly for the baby, like for the kid. And there's got to be some voice of reason that evolves themselves at some point. Like gotta be some kind of voice of reason.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, they might have to do a third party when it comes to drop offs because hearing that kid crying, it was like is agonizing.

[Van Lathan]

And it only escalated. The whole video only escalated. It only escalated like from there it went from. It started off with the kid crying and then it became a full on familial royal rumble in the driveway where everybody's fighting.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I'm not here to call either one of them bad parents. But what I can say from that video is you were not prioritizing your child in that moment. And that's a problem.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah. You know, for me, I ain't got no kids, you know what I'm saying? So I always looking at parenting, there's sometimes I look at people's parenting though. Sometimes I look at people's parenting. I've seen people before, I'm like, you know, I look at people's parenting in other situations that are not as dire too. Kid running around the airport knocking people bags over. I'm like, yo, you ain't gonna do nothing about that nigga just knock my shit over if I get on his ass. If I get on his ass then. You ever jump at a kid?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Never. Never. Never.

[Van Lathan]

You ever. If at one, sometimes you just. Cause sometimes a kid will fuck over you and they'll think it's funny. You never just ifed at a kid? What's up? You never just get. Cause sometimes a kid will jump at you or a kid will do some shit to you and they'll think it's funny. I used to have my nephews back in the day, my little ones, all the little kids that used to be around and stuff and they'll do some shit and then they'll think it's sweet. They'll think it's a game. They'll come, they'll knock your shit over or they'll scare you. They're like, kids like to come scare you. You on the couch just chilling and all of a sudden sigh. Somebody comes scare you, they jump on you or whatever like that. And then you just. What's up with you see how you, you don't know. You never know. I might flash out on your dumb ass. You never know. N. Like I get on your ass, you know what I'm saying? Like, and you jump at them a little bit to let them know that it's not going to happen. But it could. And sometimes you gotta do that in different spaces. Kid in the airport and Walmart come behind you, kick you on your shin. You know, does that happen to you? See, you know what, you know what gets me? So I had a take about kids and people got mad. I said that I should be able to pay extra to fly on planes and go a place where kids aren't there. I should be able to pay for kid free spaces.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That, that is somebody who's talking who doesn't have kids.

[Van Lathan]

Nigga, do you have kids?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, but I would never make that statement.

[Van Lathan]

Why? What's so wrong with. What's so wrong about it?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Paying extra. Fly private. Then you want to pay for a space. There are ways you could do that. You want to pay for a space that has no kids on and on plane. Go fly private. But hold on, hold on. Kids got to get.

[Van Lathan]

This is so. Wait a second. So you're saying that the alternative should be get your own plane?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are you saying the alternative is if you want to pay more? I'm telling you there are ways to. To pay more so you can fly kid list, but to act like kids can't travel because they gotta get to point.

[Van Lathan]

That's not what I said.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You want to pay more to be in a kid's free space.

[Van Lathan]

That's not what I said.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What does that look what you said? You didn't say you want to pay more. Did you not say you want to pay more to be in a kid's free space?

[Van Lathan]

This is what you guys are doing. This is what you, you, you kidd is saying.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Get to the point.

[Van Lathan]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Quincy Avery]

Listen.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did you not say that.

[Van Lathan]

No, I did not say I didn't want kids to travel. I said I don't want to.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You said you want to pay more for a kids free space. That's what you said.

[Van Lathan]

I didn't say that I didn't want kids to travel. That's not what I said. I said I don't want to travel with them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, that's what I said and I gave you an option.

[Van Lathan]

Right, but what I'm saying is that's not what we talking about because that's Fantasy Land. That's $50,000. Okay? So what I'm saying is. What I'm saying is right now is you should be able to pay for spaces where they're not children. Special times at restaurants, special times at the movies. There should be special times where you can pay where there are no kids. And it's not because you do not like kids. It's because sometimes you don't want them around. And by the way, I have a.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So inappropriate.

[Van Lathan]

I have a challenge, by the way. I know that I'm right. And I'll tell you how I know that I'm right about this. All of you have mothers in your lives. People that are mothers. Do something and then watch the response. Go to a mom unprompted, with no fucking warning and say, I'll take the baby Thursday night. Just go up. Just go to a mother. Because this has happened before. Go to a mother. This happened in the 2000s when the kids were little. Like, go to a mother and say, I'll take the baby Thursday night. Watch her response. Like, watch her response. The mother of the child. Watch how she responds. She is gonna act like she won the lottery. She is gonna act like it is. You have changed her life because you've given her an evening free of her own child. She gonna go out. She gonna paint. She gonna go paint and sit with the girls. She gonna get daiquiri. She's gonna do stuff. And I know this because it's happened. Hey, Van, I'm running late. Coming back home is like, you only have to wash it 30 more minutes. No, it's okay. Stay as long as you need. I got her. We watching. Sitting here, watching Dora. She watching Dora. I'm playing Halo. She good. You good? Are you serious? Yeah. Stay out as long as you want to. Go the happy hour. Do the whole. Oh, my God, I can't believe it. Then you know what they start doing after that? They start trying to get you to take the baby. Van, are you going to be home Friday night? Yeah, I'll be here. I'm not doing shit. You sure you're not going out with any of your little. I'm like, nah, I'm good. I'm good. Like, why? It's like, well, if you're not gonna be doing anything I maybe want to go do. Go for it. Go for it. You become uncle of the year. Because even the mothers of the children know that there are certain times that they fucking need a break from kids. Even the mothers of the children know that. So all I'm saying is it's not the same thing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But keep going.

[Van Lathan]

It most certainly is. All I'm saying is even if I'm not with the kids every single day, and I'm not, there are certain times when I really need to know when I know I need to sleep or I need to do all of this, that I would just like to ensure that there are no children there. Kid free space, like adult only spaces. There should be kids only spaces. There should be adult only spaces. And so I'm. I mean they have them obviously strip clubs and stuff like that. But I'm talking about if there was one flight where I could pay for it and I knew that they were gonna give me kids on the flight. Cause there's nothing worse than taking that red eye and you knew that there are not gonna be any kids on there. And all of a sudden the kid gets on the red eye and the baby is late and the parents booked it and the baby's crying, you can't get no sleep. And then you make a fool outta yourself on cnn.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's happened before you. So yeah, you want a. But you also, you want that. But you want it to be reasonable.

[Van Lathan]

No, no, no, no.

[Rachel Lindsay]

At a reasonable price.

[Van Lathan]

I want it to be a service offer. And I also don't think that like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

For a reasonable price.

[Van Lathan]

And I don't think that renting out a whole plane. I'm saying that this should be a service that's offered.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's why people fireplace is one of the reasons. I'm sure they do.

[Van Lathan]

No, that's not why they fly flat.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I said one of the reasons fly private. They want to be in control of their entire environment.

[Van Lathan]

And so what I'm saying is that like by the way, that's not an anti kid thing. And what I was going to say is that I don't think kids fuck with you the way they fuck with me. Kids fuck with me because I'm jovial, I'm big and they want to have fun with Uncle Van.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They come up, they, oh, so that's not me. No, kids love me.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not saying they don't love you. That's not what I said. See, listen to how everything that gets said taken. I didn't say they didn't love you. I say that they fuck with me. They fuck with me. They come in and that's why you gotta jump at a kid sometimes. Like back the fuck up. Like, hey, hey, Van, can I have some? No, that's enough. Back up, nigga. Like you gotta jump at them sometimes, jostle them around a little bit. I love children, but I don't want to be around them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're an elitist. You're an elitist. Becoming a little bit of an elitist. I didn't say I. I'm an elitist.

[Van Lathan]

This has nothing to do. I like. I'll tell you what, say something else. Since you say I'm an elitist. Poor kids don't have this problem. I like them more. They know how to. They don't have this problem of getting out of their bodies. Poor kids don't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Can we go? I'm so tired of the generalizations. Can we go?

[Van Lathan]

When I see black kids on planes, they are well behaved. I'm not saying that they're all poor, but I'm saying the kids. I'm not saying that they're all poor. When I see black kids on planes, they're well behaved. I'm sorry. I saw a whole family of black kids. They come on the plane. We're having the fun. But I'm telling you, them kids that be in first class with you. What you watching? Get your ass out of my goddamn. Okay. All right, Donnie, before we leave, Drake. I stand by everything. I stand by it all. Oh, God, Drake. Nah, we gotta do it. This is your job. You're podcasting.

[Drake]

This is you just recognizing somebody that I never met in my life, that I fully believed in, that I thought was really interesting, and I wanted to have an interesting conversation with it. Pissed off, like, so many, like, all these fucking losers. These, like, you know, like, story journalists and, like, this guy and that guy who, like, feels so entitled to this interview about. And Drake never does anything for, like, this type of media, and it just, like, made people so angry that two people who actually, like, have just, like, maybe nothing to talk about or. Or everything to talk about, but just based on, like, random energy could. Could come together. I think it changed a lot of things. It changed a lot of things. Like on TikTok, it changed a lot of things. Like, in the streaming world, like, it made people more comfortable to go sit down with somebody that they've never sat down with before. You know, like, not to take, like, overly take credit, but when I do see, like, somebody, you know, who keeps to themselves, like a Nicki Minaj, like, go to, like, Kai Sonat House or, like, I see, you know, these music, these musicians go to, like, a guy like Plaqueboy Max's studio and start making songs with him. Like, I feel like we did usher in the idea of just like. Like, you can be from two completely different walks of life. Celebrities are not here that we're not. Like, the goal is not to be, like, some unattainable dickhead for the. For your whole life, you know, and only, like, sit with Zane Low while he, like, asks you, like, the most, like, curated and formal questions. No disrespect to him, you know?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Drake]

But it's just like, I think we did something that was special.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Drake]

And I was proud of what we did.

[Van Lathan]

So. I think that a lot of people have criticized Drake for not doing interviews.

[Rachel Lindsay]

With hip hop media, which has been a while.

[Van Lathan]

I'm gonna be honest with you. I think the criticism is unfair.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

I think the criticism is unfair. I don't think it's unfair criticism. I think if we're looking at Kendrick, Drake, and Cole as being the holy triumvirate of prestige hip hop, I don't think any of those guys really do that much. Hip hop media, in terms of the interviews are concerned. I'm just being honest with you. I don't think that they do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Question. Do they do any interviews?

[Van Lathan]

They do some. They do some. I mean, Kendrick did an interview with Timothee Chalamet, so, like, like. So he did an interview with Timothee Chalamet. They might do. And by the way, when I say this about them, I don't necessarily think that it's so. I have people that I blame for it, and I am one of the people that I blame for it. I blame myself partly for this. I worked at TMZ for 10 years, and in the time that I worked at TMZ, I watched the media landscape change. I'll tell you how TMZ as an organization has to exist to destroy prestige. Like prestige is created by manufacturing importance, meaning an interview feels important because it's with Barbara Walters. Everybody's gonna be watching. Everybody's gonna be watching you with Diane Sawyer. In order to make that interview feel important, you have to make Barbara Walters someone that's important to talk to. And there's a lot of PR that goes into that. There's a lot of manufacturing of her, of her reputation, and there's a lot of work that a Barbara Walters or somebody like that puts in to get to that point. There's a lot of journalistic accolades they have to get, but a lot of it comes to what we perceive as being prestigious. Right. For TMZ to exist, they had to kind of destroy prestige. They had to destroy people's relationships with pr. They had to destroy people's relationships with legacy networks. They had to destroy all of that stuff they have to say, you don't talk to tmz, we talk to you. Right. It's not your moment. When we're talking to you, it's our moment. And I think that that was contagious. I think a lot of platforms over the last 15, 15 years, when you talk to them, it's not them talking to you, or it's not you talking to them, it's them talking to you. The moment will be theirs. It's less about interrogating what you are and what you have going on, then it's did you see what so and so asked so and so. Right. And that underscores to me, what I've always said about hip hop in particularly is that there needs to be prestige hip hop media where these interviews are specifically about these artists. These interviews are about these artists interrogating them, asking them questions, tough questions, questions that they can't really like choreograph, but questions that are about getting to the center of what they are and what they've done and not about the platform itself, using the artist to add to whatever the platform is. Like, I'm speaking on this. I'm not in hip hop media, but what I have seen is legacy media, period, take a hit since things left. And that's fantastic in one way, because it democratizes people's ability to have opinions and have platforms without having to get put on by somebody. But also, there's something else that it does. It changes the standard. And when the standard is actually changed, it's a mixed bag, because now Drake, who went on a lot of places and did a lot of interviews early in his career and was shit on by people, now he doesn't feel like it's worth it to him. Or even some of these other guys don't feel like it's worth it to them to sit down with someone and have a cultural interrogation of what it is that they're doing and what it is they have going on. Because there's a lack of trust and a lack of incentive. When you sat down with a Barbara Walters, or when you sat down with even Elliot and B Dot, or where you sat down with other people who were prestigious in what it is that they did, it's not like they didn't ask you relevant questions. They did ask you relevant questions, but it was worth it for you to do it because the interview was important. And so when I saw people respond to what he was saying, I thought it was devoid of a lot of context about how media has changed, how media has changed in the last 15 years. And while it's a good thing that there are more creators and more podcasts and more new media than ever, because some of these voices are so unique that I enjoy listening to them. They have their own groups, their own fan bases, all of this stuff. But for us to be able to be in unison, particularly as a hip hop culture, that there are one or two or three places that you go where that interview is super duper important from a prestige standpoint, that has to exist. Because then we have to ask you, well, this big thing happens. Why didn't you go sit down with this person? Why didn't you go sit down with that person and that part of it which is not really super. And those people can't be super invested in self. They have to be career driven. But it can't be about boosting their platform with the interview. It has to be getting to the heart of the story. Journalistic standard and integrity, that has to be a part of it. Because if it's not a part of it, then it's something you can say no to. And when you can say no to that, it turns it. Because now these three guys are guys like them. They don't have to do those type of interviews, especially in black spaces, right? Even if they. When they do do them, it's Gail or it's Oprah or it's. It's. We don't have anybody that they have to really talk to. So it essentially means that they're not feeding into that kind of cultural ecosystem, that kind of hip hop ecosystem. So somebody has got to, in my opinion, care about the actual substance of the journalism and get to that. It's not for me. I'm not in hip hop media. But I'm just saying there needs. Hip hop media, needs prestige.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So you think if that prestige existed, Drake would be doing those interviews?

[Van Lathan]

I think that once again, not just Drake. Not just Drake. But what I think is that if artists could go to a place and trust that the interview was going to be about them and if the interview was going to be about what they have going on, rather than the platform or the place trying to make a moment, I think you would see more of that. Even if the interview was gonna be hard.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why do you think that actors do it?

[Van Lathan]

Oh, because that's. Acting is a prestigious profession. So, like, like, so acting. So acting is a prestigious profession. Like, that's a great question. Like being an actor, it still means something to be a stage actor, it still means something to.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But they're still subjected to the same. The reason I'm asking is because, I mean, I think being a musician is prestigious too. But I. But what I'm saying is, is that actors will sit down with these media outlets who will ask them questions that are not about the craft. It will be about making the moment. And you still have. What do you mean? Like who? Which as in the outlet or the person.

[Van Lathan]

So two things.

[Rachel Lindsay]

One, because I know, because I did Entertainment Magazine and it was. And part of my frustration in why I wanted to leave is because I did want to sit down with actors and talk about their craft. And you could see the excitement when that would happen. I wanted to talk about the movie or the project that they were doing as opposed to. Well, you. I saw you are dating this person or you did this to get that viral moment. And. And go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

Well, they're coming. You were on Extra. So being. Being on. They're not gonna talk to you. They're not gonna. There's another thing. There's. There's a difference in. I think this is an interesting conversation because it also talks about the way that we view these different professions. Right, that you're on Extra. Right. So being on Extra, when they come to Extra, they. Extra is a celebrity news show. So being that Extra is a celebrity news show, they're not gonna really come on Extra to talk about like acting even like, I'll give you an example. Even the late night shows are still viewed like. People don't even watch the late night shows as much as they watch some of the other stuff that's on these various platforms. But the late night shows are viewed as prestigious. It is a big deal to go on Jimmy Kimmel. It is a big deal to go on the Tonight Show. Those platforms matter. So everybody is going to go on there. What I'm saying is we have to have platforms that have a certain amount of importance so that it is in the artists. They want to go on there. They want to sit down and have conversations with these people.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I get you. My point is, is that a list actors will go to an Extra, which is not prestigious, and still sit down and have a conversation where you don't have rappers.

[Van Lathan]

A ish list actors.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I've entered, I've interviewed a list actor.

[Van Lathan]

What's the biggest actor you ever interviewed on Extra?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Denzel. Brad Pitt.

[Van Lathan]

Fair enough. So what I would say about that stuff is, first of all, even those interviews, Those interviews are PR hits. They're PR hits. Let me finish. They're 10 minutes at a time. If that. Not even that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

If that.

[Quincy Avery]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

So they're essentially junket hits. Like you're, I mean TMZ gets those interviews, but they don't get them on tmz. We get em on the street so we can get like you can get them whatever. Right. So it's not like you're not getting the people, you get them on the street. So when they are coming to sit down with you, they're not coming to sit down with you. We're not talking about the extra interview and the stuff like that. We're not even talking about the same type of content. The Drake interview that people want is not Drake sitting down with 10 minutes for somebody talking about something, answering a couple of questions. They know what you're going to ask them about. You're going to ask them about their personal life, what happened on this and blah blah, blah. It's a celebrity news show. This is exactly the opposite of what I'm talking about. Right. What I'm talking about is interviews with people where you can ask them questions that actually interrogate who they are culturally. Right. And these interviews have existed throughout. The Rolling Stone interview used to be this, the Source and XXL had this like interviews that are meaningful and substantive to people. So we have a better. I can't tell you how many times I used to sit down and read a hip hop magazine and read about an artist and feel like I have a better understanding of who that artist is from having seen that interview and seen that digging into his life. Celebrity news doesn't do that. And so, and so being that that's not happening there, right? Because some of these rappers might do stuff like that if they're promoting something, they might go sit down. Being that that's not happening there, the question, it has to happen somewhere. And what I'm saying is the reason why it's not happening to me at the top of hip hop from an industry standpoint, it's definitely on the rappers, but it's also kind of an indictment of how the media itself has changed and how in a way how predatory a lot of these shows and a lot of this stuff has been. And I, I am right in the middle of it, like part arms of it, like right in the middle of it. So that changed and people went, you know what? If I'm gonna get, if I'm gonna sit down and have a conversation with you and the conversation is going to literally be about you making me look bad. Now I'm not saying that Barbara Walters or Oprah or gayle has never asked a question that made somebody look bad.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Always do they.

[Van Lathan]

They. But it was a question that had to be asked. Right. I'm talking about. And we know the difference. Sometimes sitting down and having someone and purposefully antagonizing them, or by the way, which I've been a part of this. Purposefully antagonizing them or purposefully riling them up to benefit the platform and not the conversation. And I think that a lot of what we're seeing from people in hip hop, where, by the way, I say something else between. The difference between hip hop and actors is number one, actors love to talk about their craft. They love to go in and talk about all of this stuff. They think that they're smart. They think that they're smart. So they want to show people that they're smart. A lot of the time. A lot of time with the hip hop artists, they really have to feel comfortable when you're talking to them. They have to feel like you not playing with them. They have to feel like you're not trying to fuck over them. And if they look bad in the interview, the fucking audience takes it out on them to so much larger of a degree. Like, if you say something, people cut up Drake's old interviews and made him look stupid, made him look like he was soft, made him look like all of these things. And so I honestly, to be all the way. I think it's terrible that he won't do those interviews. But I kind of get it from all three of them. I kind of get it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. I mean, even this one, they're cutting up and making it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. So actually people are upset about this and it is a big time tragedy. Cause it takes away from the whole ecosystem of the culture. I really think it does. But I'm not gonna lie. When I saw that, I'm like, y' all don't see why? Like, I kind of get it. Like, he would talk to people and people would be like, look how stupid he sounds. Look how corny this is. Look at all of this. And so now he's gonna try to choreograph everything he does. And he's not the only one. And he's not. He's by far not the only one.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He's not the only one. I don't. Yeah, we can end it. I don't. Yeah, go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

You're done. You don't care about Drake anymore. You hate him.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I don't hate Drake at all. I don't hate. I didn't like this interview, but that's more of an indictment on her than it is on him.

[Van Lathan]

You're not fucking with her.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't get it. Yeah, I got it. And I would say what she did before on her platform, I understood more than what she's doing now. But this is also only her first episod, so, I mean, so this is.

[Van Lathan]

Some new shit she got coming out.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, this is a she back. She started. She started it. She's back. She started it again. But.

[Van Lathan]

All right, we gotta go now.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Everybody can go to her for their hip hop interviews.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, people gonna go there. Look very important. I actually love all of the voices out there. I do. I consume so much hip hop media. I consume so much. I'm watching everybody. You know who got a good platform. Wayno, Wayne O. Just sit down, talk directly to the camera. It's fucking fantastic. Wayneau, Sway, Breakfast Club, Joe Budden, all of them. I watch all of them, watching everything. I'm still on no Jumper. The drama over there at no Jumper. I'll still be on no Jumper. But there does need to be a place where serious. I'm not saying this doesn't happen on the Breakfast Club or on Joe's podcast or with Ebro. Or with Ebro, but I'm saying even I'm talking about prestige hip hop media. Like, I think that what really needs to happen is there should be a new organization that's formed. A lot of these people should come together.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's the one that's doing the Source Awards.

[Van Lathan]

Like, they should come together and form a new organization for the preservation, promotion of hip hop as an art to where you sit down and you have important hip hop discussions that you know. But whatever I saw, I've seen what I've done and I'm trying to correct it. And there it is. There it is. That's the whole thing. All right, Quincy Avery, archmanning talk on the other side of this break.

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[Van Lathan]

Week one is over. We're going into week two. It's very special. You can catch all the college football action over on Ringer Tailgate Ringer Podcast Network. Me, Joel Anderson, Tate Frazier. Rachel's team lost last week, guys. We didn't get a chance to talk about it. Texas lost and everybody was paying attention to one player, Arch Manning. Arch was bad, but the question is, how bad? Now we can't tell you that as well as one guy, the quarterback guru himself, Quincy Avery, can tell us. He's been talking. Quincy, you're getting spicy on social media, bro. I'm seeing you challenge people about the game of football. Thank you for joining us, man. What's up? What up, though?

[Quincy Avery]

I appreciate it.

[Van Lathan]

All right, Arch Manning, first question before we even get to the game, Dan Orlofsky from ESPN had a tweet. I want to ask you about this tweet. He said basically the tweet was, how do you take a generational talent and put the handcuffs on him? Most people figure that he was talking about Arch Manning as a generational talent. Before we even get into the breakdown of what Arch did and what he has to do. Talking college football here on Higher Learning, do you think that Arch Manning is a generational talent? Is he a Newton? Is he a Burrow? Is he a Tebow? Is he a Vic? Is he a James Winston? Is he one of those guys?

[Quincy Avery]

There's never at any point in Arch Manning's life that he's done anything generational other than be named Manny. You can watch every single one of his high school snaps Which I've done every play he played in high school I watched. He avoided the camp circuit. So the same situation that the C.J. strouds, the Trevor Lawrences, the Justin Fields, the Kayla Williams, the camp circus that they went through elite 11 rivals, all those different things, he avoided that. I think it was a lot because of his family. They didn't want him to go through like difficult situations or having to compete with the top level guys, see where he was at.

[Van Lathan]

So he doesn't get that.

[Quincy Avery]

He never gets to show, oh, I'm really good. And then when you watch his high school tape, he's playing against some little sorry ass dudes. Very talented, not very athletic, but he did well there. But there's nothing about him that's a generation. He doesn't throw the ball very accurately. He doesn't have a super strong arm. He's a really good runner. But generational is just a wild take. I had to text Dan after you said that, like, hey, you're wild. Like, there's no, there's nothing generational about anything that we've seen.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, so then here's the question, because we've been hearing about archmanning for a while now and being from the South. I'm not from Louisiana, but I know a lot of people and there were a lot of people who would say, there were whispers, there was rumble that, well, he hasn't really been tested. And even if you take that away, this was his first game starting away, his third game starting at Collegiate, his third game starting ever. He had not been a proven talent yet. He was already in the Heisman conversation. He was all. Texas is number one, partly because of this hype surrounding it. So my question for the listeners who are listening to this, how did we even get here? Because I'm trying to think of something comparable to what I guess I'll call the Arch Manning effect. I can't think of a time where there was someone else who was on a similar trajectory like this and had this type. So how do we get here?

[Quincy Avery]

Well, a lot of the times the people who are saying things on TV haven't done any research in terms of watching them. So they'll see the recruiting evaluations the way that people recruit somebody getting into college. So from his high school time, there's a bunch of old guys who do these scouting services like Rivals or Scout or ESPN who don't have a depth of knowledge about football, but the stats look good. For Arch, he threw the ball for a lot of yards, completed a lot, a very High percentage of passes. But his guys are really, really open. They're way better than everybody they're playing against. So the stats could be misleading. Those stats get him the number one player, like, the number one in the country. He's this great player. His last name's Manning. So all of the things that we'll see on paper, they fit the bill. Like, that's who. Oh, that's who we want. And then you get a guy like Paul Feinbaum, an old white dude who loves the Minnings and wants everybody to, you know, they want to be in good graces with the Mannings. That's what so many of these people who are talking about him positively are saying. They want to be able to go back, text Peyton, text Eli, hey, I have your boys back. That's what he got. He got a bunch of people who care about the Manning family really liking him, and that's who's talking positive about him.

[Van Lathan]

So you think that a lot of these guys that are talking about Arch actually are dick riding Peyton and Eli, and they just want to be on the Manning cast. They want to be invited to the Manning family Thanksgiving dinner. And they're not being honest about Arch Manning because they want to be in the good graces of his uncles.

[Quincy Avery]

It's one of two things. Either they're doing that, they're doing some glazing, you know what I'm saying, trying to ride those coattails, or they're ignorant. So it's just one of those two things. It can't be anything other than that.

[Van Lathan]

Either we don't know enough about football.

[Quincy Avery]

And we're saying this, or I know a lot about football and I want the Mannings to really appreciate me having the young ones back.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I didn't realize they had that much power still.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, they have an institution. Yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

They got the biggest camp where they bring all the top college quarterbacks so another coach can't say anything bad about them because they want their quarterback to go. They want them to have positive sentiments about their quarterback when teams talk about him. Peyton Manning's dad is the one who talked bad about CJ before the draft when he was coming out, because he didn't. Like, they didn't go to his camp.

[Van Lathan]

They do.

[Quincy Avery]

They have a lot more power than I think people are aware of.

[Van Lathan]

Peyton Manning's dad. How dare you speak of Archie Manning this way. New Orleans Saints legend. Bite your tongue. But I want to say something. You know, Newman. Arch went to Newman. I'll be honest with you. I'm part of The Arch problem. Not that I thought that Arch Manning was going to be this amazing college football player, but I remember being still at TMZ when Arch was in high school and I would be watching the games on my computer at work. I was just curious about what they said. Basically that he threw it like Peyton and he ran it like Archie. And so you had Cooper.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He ran it like Cooper. I thought they said Cooper.

[Van Lathan]

No, Archie's his dad, so. Well, Archie's his grandfather, so Archie was a super mobile quarterback for Ole Miss. And you know, Mississippi, they are the most Mississippi New Orleans people that I've ever known. They basically from Mississippi. Anyway, so they say he ran it like Archie and he threw it like Peyton. And I had to see it. And just to be real, there have been other quarterbacks that have come out, other players that have come out of Newman that have been really good. Peyton went to Newman. Eli went to Newman. Odell Beckham Jr. Went to Newman. So dominating at Newman for some people has translated into being dope in college and being dope in the NFL. I guess the question is, I'm gonna ask you right now, from what you've seen on tape, what is it that Arch Manning doesn't have?

[Quincy Avery]

And this might be a reps thing. I think that he has the ability to get better, but he's not very accurate and he doesn't make great decisions. You go to. So the thing that I thought about the most is I watched the very first play of the game. And for those who don't know the very first play of the game, a team will practice that play every single day during the week. And on Friday, the night before the game, they'll get in the hotel, they'll be in their sweatsuits, they're going to run through those plays and after that they're going to go talk about those first 10 plays they're going to run of the game. Then on the bus of the game, they're talking about this play that they're going to run. They run the very first play of the game. Arch Manning misses the first read. How do we do that? We knew what we were going to do. We knew the plan, we knew where we wanted to go with the football. Our only goal is to get 5, 6 yards and he misses a guy wide open in a flat who's his first read. So it's decision making coupled with the accuracy. And I don't think his arm is great. Like he has an okay arm, but he's not very accurate and he's not Making great decisions right now. And the decision making can change because he's going to get more reps, he's going to get more comfortable. But those are the things that are really concerning for me in terms of his early play.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, so let me a couple things that you said. One, you know, he, this is his first game. He has the, of the season. He has the ability to grow to be better. He had three bad first quarters. Fourth quarter was a lot better. What did you see him do? Right. That maybe makes you think, okay, he has the potential to maybe live up to this hype or doesn't. And then on the other end, I guess I'll couple it with this question is how much of his performance was based on play calling versus him as a quarterback.

[Quincy Avery]

So I don't think that he played great in the fourth quarter.

[Van Lathan]

I thought he played okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He was all right, but that's what he got stats.

[Quincy Avery]

He threw a good pass. He threw. He threw a good vertical pass down the right side of the field. Threw a touchdown. I think that's good. Like, I really enjoyed that.

[Van Lathan]

Quincy, wait a minute.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not gonna let you on my team like this.

[Quincy Avery]

Well, that was good for him.

[Van Lathan]

That's all right. I like, I really enjoyed that he did that. Like you're not giving something.

[Quincy Avery]

No, he gave you something positive to talk about with that pass. But we'll go to third and five on the last play of the game. I mean, the last series of the game, third and five. He's got a shallow cross. Now this is discipline, the ability to do the little things right over and over. And I'm a nerd out a little bit. He has a play call where his eyes start on the left side of the field and he has a shallow cross, which is just a five yard route running from his left, right in front of him to his right. He's like this. He stays open to the left. He sees it, gets excited. And you see this like sidearm crazy throw.

[Van Lathan]

Weird.

[Quincy Avery]

Hits a guy. Yeah, hits a guy back here in the hang.

[Van Lathan]

You're like, fam, what are you doing?

[Quincy Avery]

If he would have taken a tenth of a second. Eyes, feet. Tie those together, put it on his chest. This conversation could be so much different. We could be talking about how Texas won the game. We're really excited about Arch's future. I think that he has an opportunity to be good, but he didn't do it yet. And the play calling, I don't know. Ohio State did what they always did. I don't think Sark Put him in a bad situation to play. He might not have called world beater plays that put him in great situations with these big chunk plays. But Sark's been calling football for a very long time and he's been a very good coordinator. Now Ohio State has dudes which probably made it a little bit more difficult to be successful. They got Caleb Downs, probably the best football player in all the country. But he didn't do a bad job. He did a sufficient job in order for them to score more than 14 points.

[Van Lathan]

I think he called the game that he thought his QB could execute. He put the handcuffs on him because he needed them. I think he called the game that he thought Arch could execut to be honest with you. I want to ask you somebody because you work with NFL starts tonight. Jalen Hurts is playing well. It's Friday when people get this, but we're recording it on Thursday. Compare Arch Manning to Jalen Hurts as a freshman when Jalen Hurts was a freshman newcomer of the year in the SEC before TUA comes along and all of that stuff and he ends up Compare Jalen Hurts as a freshman to Arch Manning as not. Arch is not a freshman, but he's a first time starter. These two guys being first time starters. Compare those two guys.

[Quincy Avery]

Arch would have been a as a first time starter, Arch would have been a little better thrower than Jalen. Not as athletic but a good runner. I think you would have said he was a better quarterback than Jalen when they both first got started. Okay, now the thing that has allowed Jalen to be so good, and I've heard Arch has this as well, is an insane work ethic. However, Arch is three years in. Everybody's talking about him like he's a freshman. He's not a freshman.

[Van Lathan]

I just made that mistake. He's not a freshman, he's a junior.

[Quincy Avery]

He red shirted one year. He got an opportunity to play a couple games last year and we saw the same thing from Sark last year. He didn't want to put arching positions where he had to throw. That leads me to believe if my coach consistently doesn't put me in positions where I have to throw, does he think that I can throw or not? And I'm led to believe that he doesn't. So Arch for three years in, I don't think he's where he needs to be. He still has opportunity to grow and improve. But I know one thing for sure, he's not going to the draft this year.

[Van Lathan]

I can hear.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Damn, see that.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah, People were saying he was projected. Some people were projecting him as the top pick in the draft. He's definitely coming back to school. But, you know, I will. You know what, I will give Archie Manning. I give the people around Arch credit for that. Because as you start to see him in mox and people saying that he was going to come off the board first and he was the number one prospect in the draft, him and his family, they were saying Arch is coming back to school next year.

[Quincy Avery]

So I. Arch didn't say that. Arch said, I don't know where my grandpa got that, but he should have been listening to his grandpa. His grandpa knew something he didn't know.

[Van Lathan]

Mm.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So how much are we to blame for this? Because you had a really interesting video you put up on your social media about it. Van talked about the Dan Orlovsky tweet. I don't think Kirk her. I think I saw something that more that Kirk was more in support of Manning, but Desmond Howard came out and kind of blamed himself. College gang day for some of the things that you were saying about people wanting to suck up to the Manning family, but talked about how they didn't do Arch any favors in evaluating him in the correct way. Do you think the media will continue on the same path that they did the first week, or do you think you'll start to see people change their tune?

[Quincy Avery]

I think the media is going to change their tune a bit. But he's about to play three really bad teams in a row and he's probably going to look really good. Then people are going to get excited again. Like I told you, I knew that he could do it. This is almost all the media's fault. Texas didn't talk about Arch like this. They weren't like, man, we got this great quarterback. Can't wait for you guys to see him start a Heisman campaign. That's not what happened. It's the media folks who want to be first to say something. They want to be, hey, I'm telling.

[Van Lathan]

You guys, this guy's really good and.

[Quincy Avery]

They hope that it happens. And we put so much undue pressure on a young man who is never deserving of any of that. Pressure he's never done anything to deserve. I'm criticizing him right now because of the media and I shouldn't have to do that, right? We shouldn't even be talking about it. He should just be some third year quarterback who got his first start, didn't play that well. He has an opportunity to get better.

[Van Lathan]

He's Peyton Manning's Nephew. We were going to. You know what I mean, we were gonna talk. You know what I mean? Like we were gonna. Yeah, we were gonna talk about him. The question is, and this is my final question for you, he's Peyton Manning's nephew. He's Eli Manning's nephew. When they having dinner at the crib, it's four super bowl rings there, it's all pros there, It's. His father is one of the great what ifs in football history. Excuse me. His grandfather is one of the great what ifs in football history because stud at Ole Miss then gets to the Saints. We didn't have nothing for him in New Orleans. And he gets his ass kicked for his entire career, but is always flashing all Pro hall of Fame talent but didn't have it around him. Right. He's just part of the most dynastic family in football. How in the world can we be fair to Arch Manning? One way or the other, it's always going to be a part of it. How do you evaluate him and not have any bias against the Mannings or bias for the Mannings?

[Quincy Avery]

I think that is, that's definitely difficult and you really gotta be measured. I try to do my best. I try to really watch the film and be really subjective about what am I seeing, what does it look like he's doing? But we found that when you do that, people don't take that very well. I think that I did that with Shadour Sanders before the draft. I'm like, hey, here's where I think he's going to go. And he went exactly where I said he was going to go. And then people got mad and called me a hater. If you disagree with the general public, it's very, very difficult and it's tough to be honest. But I'm going to try my best to continue to be honest in this quarterback space.

[Van Lathan]

Do you think Shador will ever be a starting quarterback in the NFL?

[Quincy Avery]

Something's gonna have to happen. Really interesting for him to get that opportunity.

[Van Lathan]

Damn.

[Quincy Avery]

Okay, let me just say this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The question should be, do you think somebody will like choose him as a starter? Because the way you answer that question, it makes it, it makes it seem like, okay, that's what I was gonna.

[Quincy Avery]

But he's a fifth round quarterback. Fifth round quarterbacks very rarely ever get the opportunity to start. Now what could happen is there's going to be a couple injuries, he's going.

[Van Lathan]

To opportunity to go in the game.

[Quincy Avery]

He'S going to get to go in the game and then if he plays really well, then guess what?

[Van Lathan]

He does.

[Quincy Avery]

He gets a chance to be a starter somewhere. But I know so many fourth round quarterbacks who never got an opportunity to start again.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What's the lesson here for. For last question for me. What's the lesson here for up and. You see people before they make it big and. And beyond when they do. What's the lesson here for an up and coming quarterback that can be learned from an arch in this situation?

[Quincy Avery]

Oh, you know what? I'm going to use the lesson from Jalen. It's not about where you start, but it's how you continually progress towards a goal, put your head down and continue to get better. If Jalen would have stayed the same guy from his freshman year to his senior year, he would have not been an NFL quarterback. But he saw where he was, saw where he wanted to get to, and he was willing to do whatever it took in order to be the best version of himself. And now we're looking at one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL because he was diligent about doing the little things right and he got to see the. Some of those, some of the work come together for him.

[Van Lathan]

All right, you brought up Jalen, so I'm going to give you one before we go. I know you saw it, I know you heard it. One game, everything on the line. Who would you rather have, Jalen Hurts or Cam Newton?

[Quincy Avery]

Like, we can put Cam on Jalen's team. Cam Newton is one of the best quarterbacks ever to play. And I think he's so underrated.

[Van Lathan]

I think he's underrated too. I watch Cam Newton do magic tricks at Auburn. Keep telling people this. Cam breaks the pocket, Patrick Peterson's there. I'm like, all right, he gonna get the first down, but Patrick Peterson's there. We got him. I watched Cam Newton run away from Patrick Peterson and I was like, you know what? We're fucked. There's nothing we can do. Like, we're fucked. But they went back and forth. You saw this. It was between Cam and Gilly. And then Jalen hurts and Cam Newton. Cam Newton was talking about it. You have to win one game and you need a quarterback to win that game. I'm not going to give you the whole personnel. I'm not going to let you. I'm not. We're not talking about the offense. We're not doing. I know all of that stuff matters. Who are you going to choose to win that game? Cam Newton or Jalen Hurts? I'm going to be honest.

[Quincy Avery]

I'm probably choosing Cam Newton in front of almost every quarterback ever.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, wow.

[Quincy Avery]

In terms of all the things that he can do, he's. He's a superhuman. And I think that we look at him in the wrong way because we remember how his career ended, rather than him at the peak of his powers when he was an MVP throwing for 400 yards like he was. He's special in a way. And he talks crazy now and wears goofy hats and dresses different. So we look at him in a way that I don't think he deserves. But that man was one of the best football players ever, and I think that we gotta treat him as such.

[Van Lathan]

Ah. All right, There you go, man. That's very objective of you, by the way, Quincy. Cause I put you in the situation to make you say something, and you kept it real. And that's why we like having you on the show. He always does. Quincy every. Thank you for joining us on Higher Learning.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you, Quincy.

[Quincy Avery]

Appreciate.

[Van Lathan]

Y' all have a good season, man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Bye.

[Van Lathan]

All right, that's enough. Quincy every was on the show. Arch Manning was on the show.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Rachel, it seems like Arch Manning was on the show.

[Van Lathan]

Archie Manning was on the show. He was here. It seems like you don't like my opinions about children. You think I hate kids.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I think they are going to say that you don't like kids. It's just I think you can have some of these opinions because you live a certain lifestyle. And I just would also wonder if things would be different, like, if you have five kids. I wonder if you would think in a different way. I just think that there's some things that I wouldn't speak on. And I speak on a lot of stuff. Maybe I'm talking about.

[Van Lathan]

She talked about somebody and their kids.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She threw that in our face. I talked about a specific situation with her and her kid because she made. She wanted us to.

[Van Lathan]

And I'm talking about my life with kids.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not generalizing. I just wouldn't generalize. Can I pay more to not have kids in my space or at my restaurant? Like, I would go home or, you know, would make other trains, cars.

[Van Lathan]

Your last cash. One last question.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Mm.

[Van Lathan]

Would you pay more for a Republican free space if there was a restaurant?

[Quincy Avery]

100%.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No. Just kidding. I don't care. You're eating. I'm not in your conversation. I'm at your table. I'm kidding.

[Van Lathan]

If there was a restaurant that I could go to where I was like, every once in a while, to where I knew there was gonna be nobody Maggie there. I will pay a premium for the restaurant.

[Rachel Lindsay]

How would I know?

[Van Lathan]

Don't matter. I'm in my conversation live in the hypothetical. I'm. I'm willing to pay a premium for it. I play. I pay for YouTube without the ads. Yeah. I'm willing to pay a premium for having a premium.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because you can. That's what I'm saying.

[Donnie]

That's what makes it elitist.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what I said.

[Van Lathan]

What makes it elitist? What makes it elitist?

[Quincy Avery]

That you would pay for it?

[Donnie]

Because you can. Yeah, not everybody can say, I would pay extra for this. We're, like, barely making.

[Van Lathan]

It's like, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. We got to go.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Say, he's gone.

[Van Lathan]

We gotta go. This is fucking preposterous.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Guys, it is elitist, man. It's okay. You're in a situation where you can't say that. If you. If you had to work. Like, that's what Donnie's saying. If you had to worry about other things, this wouldn't even be a thought in your mind. You wouldn't say it because other things would be more important to you. You have the freedom, the financial freedom to make these reckless comments.

[Van Lathan]

Guys, guys, listen to me. It is elitist to say that you want to pay for something because you feel better than somebody. I don't feel better than families. I don't feel better than anyone. No one. Do you know how many things that you pay for that you pay for, that everybody pays for? That's based on convenience. Convenience? What's convenient to you? Like, like, convenient, like. However, is it elitist if you get your food and you don't like the food the way it is? Is it elitist to then tell the people that the food didn't come the way you wanted it to come and then send it back? Is it elitist? No. You're paying for something that you want based on convenience. It's convenience. I don't think that I'm better than the families that are fine. I don't. I don't think I'm better than. Than the kids. So that's nothing to do. It's. And by the way, most things in life are about what you can pay for. Do you fly? Do you fly first class?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sometimes.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. Why?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Van, you can flip this all year.

[Van Lathan]

I'm asking you. I'm asking. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. No, no, no, no. Do you fly? Do you fly first class? Why? Why do you fly first class?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because I like to be comfortable when I'm flying. For longer flights. But Van, I'm not saying I'm not elitist at some times or I don't pay for convenience.

[Van Lathan]

Does it have anything. Does it have anything? Question.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not even going to argue with you.

[Van Lathan]

Does it have anything to do. Can I have a question? Can I ask you a question? Does it have anything to do with you feeling better than the people in economy?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. Take think caps off, but do not stop learning. I AM Van Laken Jr.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm Rachel Lynn Lindsay. Bye, guys. How much to pay yourself? All you want.