← Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay
Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay
Is the Shutdown Really Over? Plus, More Epstein Files Leak, and the State of the GOP With Emma Vigeland! | Higher Learning | The Ringer
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- [00:02]
Van Lathan
Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors, what is up? Higher Learning is on. It is Ivan Lathan Jr. And it's.
- [00:08]
Rachel
Me, Rachel and Lindsey.
- [00:10]
Van Lathan
We got an hour with Emma Viglund coming up. It's a great hour.
- [00:16]
Rachel
I feel like this has been highly anticipated, at least from our point of view.
- [00:20]
Van Lathan
Me? Yeah.
- [00:21]
Rachel
Cause we're fans. Fucking majority. Not just you. Me too, Majority. You put me on. You put me on Majority Report.
- [00:27]
Van Lathan
Sam Cedar, Emma Viglunder. I love it. She's going to be on. We're going to talk about all kinds of things. We're going to talk about the progressives, the controlled opposition of the Democrats, maybe. We're going to talk about Epstein files, which you have to start the show with. Rachel, I was looking through the Epstein files here.
- [00:47]
Rachel
And what were you looking for?
- [00:48]
Van Lathan
I was looking. I was looking at the Epstein files right here. And this is one. This comes from this. From Jeffrey Epstein to Ghislaine Maxwell. This is dated May 9, 2009. It says, I'm going down to Texas to have lunch with. Don't.
- [01:12]
Rachel
Don't you dare.
- [01:14]
Van Lathan
This great judge, you might know.
- [01:17]
Rachel
Why would you do that? Why would you do that? Why would you do that? You know, initially when you started, I thought you were gonna say, like, 2016. I'm watching this girl on the Bachelor, ABC. That's what I thought. But to throw, you know, throw me under the bus.
- [01:34]
Donnie
Help me.
- [01:35]
Rachel
But poor Sam. Poor the judge, who's just. All he's doing is just minding his business, opening up doors for people of.
- [01:44]
Van Lathan
Color and closing some doors, too. So he opens up some doors, he closes.
- [01:50]
Rachel
You know what's funny about you saying that? Deserve. He ain't doing it for nobody who don't deserve. You know what's funny?
- [01:55]
Emma Viglund
That you say that.
- [01:56]
Rachel
Because I was thinking when you started talking, I was like, how would. Cause you started talking about Majority Report and Emma and her being on the show. I'm like, what do you. We know you're not a Democrat. You say that all the time. And you and I are both registered independents. But I was like, what do you really identify yourself as? And then I was gonna answer and I.
- [02:16]
Van Lathan
Okay, a nigga. N. I, G, G A. I was.
- [02:20]
Rachel
Gonna answer the same H. Put a.
- [02:24]
Van Lathan
H at the end of my shit. I was like, n, I, G, G A H, a nigger. I don't identify as anything. There's like, I identify as somebody.
- [02:33]
Rachel
But you're not a progressive. You're not. Well, you're obviously an independent because you're not attached to any Party.
- [02:38]
Van Lathan
But this is what I believe in. I believe that human beings living in this country have a right to healthcare, have a right to due process, have a right to housing, have a right to food, and have a right to movement. Okay? And I don't. I believe in destroying and breaking hierarchy. So whatever that makes me, that's what I am.
- [03:02]
Rachel
And I believe that's what you are.
- [03:03]
Van Lathan
Making party and all of that stuff. So that's what I believe in. That's.
- [03:06]
Emma Viglund
That's.
- [03:07]
Rachel
You're so creative. The fact that you haven't created your own party name is actually surprising. Before we get into the show, I just want to say I'm out here in Orlando. I'm at the Add Color conference, and I have met so many people who are fans of higher learning, who support what we do. I've said it before in different circumstances. It's one of the most rewarding things when people come up, they don't want to talk about necessarily the Bachelorette and all of that. They want to talk about band, they want to talk about higher learning. They want to point to a specific episode, something that moved them. They want to talk about our dynamic. It just, it really means a lot because it's community, which is also what AD Color is about. So shout out to every single person that I met that I talked to. I appreciate you.
- [03:53]
Van Lathan
What is AD Color?
- [03:55]
Rachel
So this is my first year at the conference and I hosted yesterday and I hosted today and tomorrow and is the awards ceremony where they're honoring people who have been, you know, creatives agents within AD Color. But it was started by Tiffany R. Warren and it's just a place in corporate America where people of color, whether you're black, brown, Asian, whatever, however you identify, as long as you have color, where you have a safe place, a safe space. And it's about highlighting you as a creative and honoring what you do within these corporations, within this, the world, the US and how you can elevate yourself. But it's a carved out space and it's really something that's. That's beautiful. And I didn't know about it and I have so many friends here that knew about it and I blame them for not telling me about it. And I'm sure if you were here, it would be the exact same thing. But it's really a cool. It's like a family reunion kind of a homecoming. And I'm happy that they allowed me to come in and be a part of it.
- [05:01]
Donnie
Fantastic.
- [05:02]
Rachel
Yeah, it's great.
- [05:03]
Van Lathan
Now I know where you wouldn't feel at home where Epstein's Island Donnie this episode is brought to you by Hyundai. The all new 2026 Hyundai Palisade Hybrid doesn't just turn heads. It commands respect. With its stunning exterior, luxurious interior with available captain seats and spacious third row seating. And equipped with advanced technology, you and the family are making a statement before you even step out. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more and experience the all new 2026 Palisade Hybrid today.
- [05:39]
Rachel
This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom. Cool temps are here. Time to level up your wardrobe at Nordstrom. You'll find the best cold weather must have, including thousands of styles under $100. Shop head to toe, cozy from faves like Ugg, All Saints, Nordstrom Skims the North Face and more. Plus free shipping, free returns and quick order pickup make it easy in stores or online. It's time to go shopping at Nordstrom.
- [06:08]
Donnie
House Republicans on Wednesday released 23,000 pages of documents from the Epstein estate. They did this a little bit after Democrats themselves released emails from the same documents that suggest that Trump knew a lot more about the sex trafficking than he had previously acknowledged. I know you guys probably haven't had a chance to go through all 23,000 pages, but what's your takeaway from the latest revelations?
- [06:33]
Van Lathan
So to read a couple of these emails, Epstein the Maxwell 4 to 2011.
- [06:40]
Rachel
Voice it, voice it, Voice it.
- [06:42]
Van Lathan
I want you to realize that that dog hasn't balked. The dog, dude, that's not what he said. I want you to realize that the dog that hasn't balked is Trump victim. Spent hours at my house with him. He has never once been mentioned. I'll tell you why I start with that one. Okay, that's in 2011. So being that that's in 2011. Yeah, that is Epstein talking to Maxwell before. Donald Trump is a national political figure now. He is definitely a celebrity and has been a celebrity since the mid-80s, maybe some would say the early 80s. But this is him talking about Donald Trump. Just to say there's a name that doesn't get ensnared in all of this and it's Trump prior to Trump being someone that he could leverage for enormous power. Great power, yeah. Big time celebrity, but not the power of a president. That's an interesting email. Your thoughts?
- [07:44]
Rachel
I mean, yeah, it's, I mean, I guess as a broader thing, not speaking specifically to this email, but you're right, the timing of it all. And there are more that follow after 2011. It's interesting because we just spent a podcast where we were talking about the fact that these eight Democrats went over to the other side and allowed the government to be open for whatever their personal reason or political reason may be. They decided, hey, we're gonna align ourselves with these Republican senators and we're going to vote to reopen the government. And of course, the basis was so people can receive their benefits, their SNAP benefits, assistance, federal government workers can get paid, all of those things. Right? But there was a lot of talk, and we talked about it, right? It seemed like the victory and the momentum that was created from the November 4th election day was demolished by those eight Democrats that decided to align themselves with the Republicans to reopen the government. And of course, it was a process that had to be sent back to the House. But whatever, it started the whole thing. And here we are now as we stand, the government. Trump has signed for the government to be reopened. And it seemed like, okay, all that was done was in vain, and then become right back here into the clutches of Jeffrey Epstein.
- [09:10]
Van Lathan
Oh, God.
- [09:12]
Rachel
I mean, this is where we are. It's like Trump has done. And I don't even have the time for the laundry list of things that Trump and his administration have done to try to distract us and to throw us off the Epstein files. And you have people here and there who are like, okay, that's cute, but remember the Epstein files, He's done all these things, and no matter what he does, we always end up right back here within the Epstein files. And I think that this is important, just in a broader sense and not particular to the email that you were talking about, is this is what the Democrats needed. The Democrat that's needed for this to not be an Epstein scandal. They needed it to be a Trump scandal. And that's exactly what it's become. It's resulted in this frenzy of public interest that Trump has not been able to escape, no matter what he has tried to do, whether the reporting is correct, that he has begged and cried for certain Republicans to remove their names from the voting so that this doesn't move forward within the House, whatever it may be, he has tried and he cannot escape it. And I think that that's what's been the issue, I guess that's been so tricky for Trump is that because he was a known associate for Epstein for so many years. That's one thing. That's not only it. It's that he came into office promising his MAGA base, that has bought into the conspiracy theories or what might actually be true, that he would release all of these files. And it would reveal this Democratic elite, corrupt regime, all of these things. And that. Not that Trump would be affiliated, but that it would reveal all of these things. And he played into the popular space when it comes to that. And now, I guess you could say, and I said this before in a different sense, that the chickens have come home to roost. It's like bitten Trump in the ass to where he can't escape it to. While they're demanding something from him, they're demanding a response, an answer.
- [11:12]
Van Lathan
So to Rachel's point, tell you guys a little bit about how this works. And I'm gonna talk a little bit about a political story here that I think is really interesting. So a lot of you guys might know that there was a swearing in that's been held up by Mike Johnson for a while, a Democrat from Arizona named Adelita Grijalva. And it's very important swearing in, because that was going to be the 218th vote or name added to what's called a discharge petition. You guys might be asking, Van, what is a discharge petition? I've heard the term discharge before, and it always bothers me when I hear it. I know some of you guys might be thinking that this is not.
- [12:00]
Rachel
Nobody is thinking that. Sorry. Nobody is thinking that. Stop.
- [12:07]
Van Lathan
But normally when you hear that term, it's not good.
- [12:10]
Rachel
Stop.
- [12:13]
Van Lathan
I'm just trying to say. I'm just trying to communicate with the people. So a discharge petition is. It's in. It's a move. It's a legislative move to force a vote on something. Okay? Now, the way the House works is that when you want to bring a vote to the floor, it has to go to a committee. And that committee, which is run by the leadership of the House, can make the decision about whether or not there is a vote on something. A discharge petition is something that's pretty old and not used all that often, which, if you get 218 votes, you can then bypass that committee and force a vote or 15 names. 218 names, should I say? You can bypass that committee and force a vote on something. Now, in a practical sense, it will be very difficult to get 218 votes on a subject that wouldn't make it out of committee. Because think about it, right? If that much of Congress wants something done, the leadership is probably on board with it in most cases. Well, this is special because the leadership in this case, namely Mike Johnson and some other people who are very loyal to the president, desperately don't want this vote because they are doing the bidding of the president. However, you have basically all the Democrats here, then you also have certain Republicans who have made this issue of Jeffrey Epstein are part of their DNA. I actually think that it is a little bit overstated that Donald Trump ever, ever, ever, ever intimated that he wanted to look into this issue. Every time Donald Trump is asked to speak on Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell, he gets squeamish. Asked about.
- [14:16]
Rachel
Prior to. Prior to.
- [14:17]
Van Lathan
Oh my God. Yeah, so you asked about Ghislaine Maxwell back when she was first arrested and under investigation and all of that. What does he say? I wish her well. Like she's a. I wish her well. That when he was asked on Axios about why he said that, he freaked out. Like he literally goes, I wish her well. I wish anybody well. I don't want to see bad happen to anybody. And everybody's asking, yo, why would you say that you wish well to somebody that is being accused of these types of crimes? The reason why he said that is cuz he didn't want to piss her to fuck off. That's why.
- [14:58]
Rachel
Exactly.
- [14:59]
Van Lathan
That's why he said it. He didn't want to make her mad. And the reason why he's always been in soft touch with her or with anything involving this is cuz he didn't want to piss her off and, and have her start singing. She's played him like a fiddle. She has been there quietly and casually, allegedly leaking things, letting him know just what kind of power she is.
- [15:18]
Rachel
She has the power.
- [15:19]
Van Lathan
And as we sit right now, Ghislaine Maxwell is somewhere getting treated like a fucking queen in a federal prison. She has a goddamn puppy.
- [15:27]
Rachel
A Texas prison, I believe she has a puppy.
- [15:30]
Van Lathan
They got. They let her have a pup. Dog, pup. They're letting people bring like computers in there so she could work. So she's getting the gym to herself, treating her like a queen in that situation. And Ghislaine Maxwell is getting the commutation book. It. It's happening right away now. The discharge petition has the 218 names. The Republicans that made this a part of their personality. It would be seen as such an obvious capitulation, such an omniscient, obvious turn that they almost cannot do it. What are you looking at?
- [16:08]
Rachel
She's in Bryan, Texas.
- [16:10]
Van Lathan
What's that? What's that at? What's happened down there?
- [16:11]
Rachel
That's the federal prison she's in, probably.
- [16:13]
Van Lathan
Why?
- [16:14]
Rachel
What's going on down there? That's where Elizabeth Holmes is.
- [16:17]
Van Lathan
Oh, that's what the fuck up theranos Yep.
- [16:19]
Rachel
Theranos.
- [16:20]
Donald Trump
Theranos.
- [16:21]
Donnie
Theranos.
- [16:22]
Rachel
Let me imitate her. Theranos. So Elizabeth Holmes is there.
- [16:25]
Van Lathan
Who else?
- [16:27]
Rachel
You don't watch Real Housewives but Jen Shaw from Real Housewives Salt Lake City. Um, no, she's Hawaiian.
- [16:35]
Van Lathan
Okay. So not white. Okay. I thought this was maybe a place where we put all the bad girl white girls.
- [16:39]
Rachel
No, this is where they put, like that's why she, I, I knew she had requested a particular prison. And this is why this is more celebrity. Like there's always like photos of them in the yard together. Like, there's always information leaking out. It's like a celebrity prison. It's a very soft, low security prison. Elizabeth. Jen Shaw. So it makes sense. I did not know. So that's what my facial reaction was, is like, oh, she's in Bryan, Texas.
- [17:06]
Van Lathan
So in all of these different emails that have come out, and everyone should know, the reason why these emails are coming out is because the Epstein Estate was subpoenaed. So this stuff is coming from the Epstein Estate. The emails that came out are in no way related to what Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie want to get out with what they've put forth. This stuff is coming out because the Epstein Estate was subpoenaed and this information was made available to the House Democrats.
- [17:42]
Rachel
So some of it, the Republicans leaked.
- [17:45]
Van Lathan
Well, some of it leaked some stuff in response, all of this stuff, but it's coming from the fact that the estate was subpoenaed and these emails are coming from this. There's one email in here, that one list of things in here that is really interesting to me. And it was reported on in Politico by Kyle Cheney. The headline is this. Jeffrey Epstein claimed he gave Russians insight into Trump. All right, now if you've been following, we're talking to Emin about this a little bit later. If you've been following reporting on drop site news, then you know, there is a lot of at least circumstantial evidence that connects Jeffrey Epstein to being a foreign intelligence asset, or if not being directly a foreign intelligence asset. I've been watching a lot of this stuff and apparently there are almost like, particularly with Mossad, are almost like not official Mossad agents that they work with, like, almost like friends of Mossad. There is a class of people that operate in that capacity for whatever that would get them in terms of, you know, power or influence or money or whatever it would be. And it's possible that when you look at some of the things that Jeffrey Epstein was into and Some of the conversations that he was having, some of the people that lived in his house. He's living in the house with Ehud Barak, who's staying in his house. Should I say Barak, a former prime minister of Israel, staying in his house. Look at all of some of this stuff that's happening, all this other stuff. There's a lot of there there. As far as what Epstein was doing on a multinational level, this story is interesting because this story, it says in the email, I think you might suggest to Putin that Larov can get insight on talking to me. He wrote in June 24, 2018, he wrote this to the former Prime Minister of Norway who was leading the Council of Europe at the time of the exchange. Larov was an apparent reference to Sergei Larov, Russia's longtime foreign minister. So Jeffrey Epstein is telling an intermediary here that if they want advice on how to deal with Trump, then they might be able to talk. Jeffrey Epstein, okay. So Epstein also said that he had previously talked with, talked about Donald Trump to Vitaly Churkin, Russell's Russia's forceful ambassador to the United States stations station. Before churkin died in 2017. He said churkin was great. He understood Trump after our conversations. It is not complex. He must be seen to get something. It's that simple. This email is Jeffrey Epstein at least saying that he had conversations with Russian officials about Donald Trump Trump Square. That with the relationship that Donald Trump has had with Putin, the way Donald Trump has treated Putin, how conciliatory, friendly and downright dick riot ish. Donald Trump was with Putin at a time when Putin is America's number one adversary, at a time when Putin is off the hezi, off the meat rack, off the hinges. And people are wondering, why does Donald Trump seem to be so pro Putin, so pro Russia? Do you know there was a time at Trump rallies where MAGA people were wearing shirts that said, I'd rather be Russian than a Democrat, because Donald Trump's stance on Russia was so soft and so oddly friendly with a nation that has, that is fucking with elections and doing all kinds of things that people wonder, what the fuck does Russia have on Trump? And now you know that there are at least conversations being had with Jeffrey Epstein and Russian assets or intermediaries that give insight. What is insight? What is insight?
- [22:11]
Rachel
That's where I get confused because obviously.
- [22:14]
Van Lathan
Project Insight, Rachel, what is Project Insight? What is Project Insight?
- [22:17]
Rachel
Let's talk about it. Let's create it right now.
- [22:19]
Van Lathan
What is Project Insight? You know, what is that? Answer that question.
- [22:22]
Rachel
I do not Know what Project Insight air quotes is? I do not know, but I want to talk about this because we know that Trump admires and has been very favorable and complimentary to Putin. But within those emails that Jeffrey Epstein is sending, it's like he had this obsession session with Donald Trump once he became president. Right. And the communications were happening more so while he was the president and he was saying that you're never going to be able to understand him unless you talk to me. So please set up a meeting with me. He's talking to somebody in between who he is, like, can you get this meeting set up with me? Because you're not going to fully be able to understand Trump unless you talk to me. And so I guess to what you're saying is I'm trying to understand the role of Jeffrey Epstein and maybe one that we absolutely never understand because it wasn't that he was working with Trump necessarily to work with Putin. There are emails that existed where he was separate from Trump. He's telling them, hey, you want to be able to understand him? I'm the guy who can help you get to know who he is now that he's president.
- [23:46]
Van Lathan
And so my question, understand what I'm saying, though. I'm not saying necessarily that Donald Trump is working with Jeffrey Epstein with the Russians. I'm saying it the inverse. Okay, Epstein is talking to the Russians about Trump.
- [23:59]
Rachel
Right, right, right, right. That's my understanding.
- [24:01]
Van Lathan
So being that Epstein is talking to the Russians about Trump and then Trump treats the Russians a certain way, what is Jeffrey Epstein telling the Russians about Donald Trump?
- [24:14]
Rachel
So what Trump's trying to compensate for?
- [24:16]
Van Lathan
Well, no. Is he just telling them this is the best way to deal with. Because I could tell somebody right now, one of the homies could come to me right now and be like, yo, Van, what Rach on.
- [24:24]
Rachel
What Rach on.
- [24:25]
Van Lathan
And I could tell them the best way to deal with you, right? I could say, Rachelites, this Rach like this. This is how Rach is. Or I could tell them specific things to do to gain your favor. Or even further, I could give them specific information about you that they might not know that they could then hold over your head to get what they wanted. Now, I could. So that's what I'm. So that's what I'm saying when I'm talking about Epstein directly talking to the Russians about Trump and then Trump acting the way he is. Come on.
- [25:02]
Rachel
That's what it comes across to me is it's the latter of what you said. It's the. I Know things about him that maybe could help you, that you could hold over him. That's how it comes to me. Nobody knows him better than me. I know how he operates. I know what he thinks. I've been his friend for this many years. That's what comes about. But we should say at the end of all of this, we have these emails, we have these thoughts or speculations attached to them, but there is nothing that we know for sure that Jeffrey Epstein was using that was something Trump would need to fight against or that Trump would totally disagree. Certain way.
- [25:44]
Van Lathan
Total disagree.
- [25:46]
Rachel
Total disagree. Tell me what the specific email that lets you know that we know for sure. Sure. That Jeffrey Epstein was Trump's op. I believe it. I'm just saying that there is nothing that has Trump.
- [26:01]
Van Lathan
What do you mean? What do you mean Trump's op? Like they weren't, like they didn't get along?
- [26:06]
Rachel
Well, they did in 2016. Even according to Trump. They were not getting along.
- [26:11]
Van Lathan
No.
- [26:11]
Rachel
And there are emails.
- [26:12]
Van Lathan
These emails say Epstein and Trump were together on Thanksgiving in 2017. Trump.
- [26:19]
Rachel
Trump said that he. When was the falling out over the property in Florida?
- [26:23]
Van Lathan
Trump is lying.
- [26:27]
Rachel
Let's talk about that. Yeah, well then let's talk about that. This is important to talk about. Trump has said and he has maintained that he cut off his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. He that like it's being reported that it was a falling out over real estate. Fine, whatever. Shortly thereafter, it was reported to the police in Florida and that Jeffrey Epstein had ties to underage women. And it has been assumed that that tip came from Trump or Trump's camp. And that's kind of been the end of it. And Trump has said, oh, when I found out, whatever, I cut off ties with him. I've learned this about him. I cut off ties. You're saying, and you're not wrong, that there are these emails out there that contradict that thing. Let's talk about that. Let's break that down.
- [27:11]
Van Lathan
President Trump's relationship with convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein continued into his first term into the White House, so much so that Epstein spent Thanksgiving with Trump while the President was off in office. This is according to newly released emails written by the late financier. Democrats on the House Oversight Committee released a new batch of emails Wednesday obtained from Epstein's estate, followed by the Republican led Panel's release of $20,000. Excuse me, 20,000 additional documents. One of those exchanges shows that he claims to have spent Thanksgiving 2017, Trump's first as president, at his private Mar a Lago resort. Epstein exchanged emails on Thanksgiving morning, November 23, 2017, with Manhattan modeling manager guru Faith Cates, who asked where he was going to spend the holiday. The disgrace financier told her he would spend the day with Eva, likely a reference to his former girlfriend Eva Anderson Dubin. And Cates mentions that Anderson Dubin's husband, Glenn Dubin, he mentioned by the name and said, who else is going to be down there? Epstein names Trump hedge fund manager David Faisal and someone else he referred to as Hansen. White House Records and contemporary media Contemporaries. Media. Can I read? Is Van Hooked on Phonics? Okay, show Trump spent Thanksgiving 2017 at Mar a Lago, but the White House did not disclose a guest list. Now, this is not ironclad that this happened. This is Jeffrey Epstein saying that it's happened. This is still interesting, though, because this talk does not seem to be the talk of somebody who is estranged from someone for so long and out of favor with them that they would not be in the same place with them in any kind of way. It's said very cavalierly. It's, hey, this is who I'm going to be with and this is the deal. Not, you know, I would love to spend Thanksgiving with Donald. Me and Donald haven't seen each other for 10 years. Oh, how I miss the Donald. None of that is who all going to be there. Cousin Emily, Cousin Michael, Cousin Ain't Deuce, Auntie Eula Mae, and Donald Trump. That's what he said. He was asked who all going to be there and he said, boom, boom, boom, boom, Trump. So to me, it doesn't seem like, as far as I'm concerned, this is at least a thread to pull on that. Perhaps the relationship between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein was a lot warmer post Epstein's convictions and him being in jail that Donald Trump let on. And I'll add this. Do you know what the main thing about all of this is to me? The email right here that says, I want you to realize that the dog that hasn't barked yet is Trump Blank spent hours at my house with him. He has never once been mentioned. That's an indictment. That's full on Jeffrey Epstein saying somebody was at my house with Donald Trump for hours and no one is talking about it. Look, that doesn't mean that this is gospel, that everything that's being said is true.
- [30:25]
Rachel
Sure, sure.
- [30:26]
Van Lathan
But this is why Donald Trump does not want these emails read. This is why the transparency that is needed around Jeffrey Epstein is not happening. Because now Trump doesn't want it to happen. If in fact, it was going to be in no way embarrassing to the president if it wasn't going to be at cross purposes with things that he has said before on the record about Jeffrey Epstein, if it wasn't going to embarrass or indict any of the president's friends, any of his family, business partners or anything like that, why would he be so finicky about this? The more that comes out, it adds to the avalanche of there that is there.
- [31:07]
Rachel
No, no, you're 100% right. I think that anybody who is following this, whether you're following it in an intense way or casually, the way that Trump is moving about the Epstein files and what's to come about them is suspicious asking, as of recent asking Republicans to change their vote. Why are you asking them and having your attorney general and the FBI director in the room, in the Situation room to talk to people about changing their vote if there wasn't something you were trying to hide? Everything that Trump is doing for, for whatever reason, Right. We don't know the specific reason, but for whatever reason, he is trying to hide it from moving Ghislaine to a different prison, from Trump, continuing to defend his administrative actions. When it comes to Epstein, calling it a hoax, calling it a pretty boring case. When you based part of your running again in 2024 on finding these answers, saying that you wish her well, asking Rupert Murdoch to remove certain stories and suing him because of that, all of these behaviors are extremely suspicious that you have something to hide, whether it's the mention of your name, whether it's certain actions, or whether it is a direct implication of tying you to some sort of criminal activity, you are trying to hide something. And that is something we don't have to speculate on. That is something that is very obvious.
- [32:45]
Van Lathan
You're right. God damn it.
- [32:48]
Rachel
I know.
- [32:48]
Van Lathan
Way to put it. All right, we're going to talk more about this with Emma Viglund. Other things as well. Let's go to our interview with Emma. Emma Viglund joins us on Higher Learning. And then we'll talk a little bit more about Pat McAfee and a couple other things. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. The all new 2026 Hyundai Palisade Hybrid doesn't just turn heads. It commands respect. With its stunning exterior, luxurious interior with available captain seats and spacious third row seating and equipped with advanced technology, you and the family are making a statement before you even step out. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more and experience the all new 2026 Palisade Hybrid today.
- [33:32]
Sponsor Voice
This episode is brought to you by Salty Cheesy Cheez It Crackers. Should this whole podcast just be me eating Cheez It? That would be a top notch podcast. You could hear them crunching in my mouth. You could think about how salty and savory and delicious they are. You can just get Cheez it on the brain. Oh, man, those Cheez it cravings, they get you. Anyway, what was I talking about?
- [33:53]
Van Lathan
Oh, yeah.
- [33:54]
Sponsor Voice
Oh, Cheez It.
- [33:56]
Rachel
Yeah.
- [33:56]
Sponsor Voice
Cheez It Crackers. Go check them out.
- [33:58]
Van Lathan
All right, guys, this is a real treat for us. As you guys know, I. I watch 15 different shows a day. My beloved breaking points, the vanguard.
- [34:09]
Emma Viglund
Oh, my gosh.
- [34:10]
Van Lathan
But the place that started the Van Lathan progressive revolution.
- [34:16]
Rachel
It is true. It is true.
- [34:17]
Van Lathan
It's the Majority Report.
- [34:19]
Emma Viglund
No way. That's great to hear.
- [34:21]
Van Lathan
Yes.
- [34:22]
Emma Viglund
That's amazing.
- [34:22]
Van Lathan
Emma and Sam, some of my favorites. We have Emma, Vin joining us today for the Majority Report.
- [34:27]
Emma Viglund
I'm so happy to be here. I know. You know, Rachel, it's a little corny, but I looked up to you from your time on the Bachelor or Bachelor.
- [34:35]
Rachel
That's you looking up to me. Oh, my gosh.
- [34:38]
Emma Viglund
Well, I mean, I couldn't get into that show until you were the lead, truly, because there was something about you that was just like, so intelligent. Look, my mom's a lawyer. I grew up around a lot of female lawyers. And there's something about that energy I was really drawn to. And I just, I've admired you since. So, so happy to be here.
- [34:55]
Van Lathan
That's fantastic.
- [34:56]
Rachel
Thank you. The feeling is absolutely mutual.
- [34:58]
Van Lathan
So that means a lot.
- [34:59]
Rachel
Thank you.
- [34:59]
Van Lathan
Let's get into the topics of the day. Let's start with Jeffrey Epstein. Let's just riff and discuss what's going on. Diva, in your estimation, how different is the entire Epstein situation now than it was, say, three or four months ago? Do you see this as something that is a political weapon for people, for particularly the House Democratic Caucus, or do you see this as a mainstream political issue with everything that we've learned over the last couple of days that will dog the president for the rest of his days?
- [35:37]
Emma Viglund
I mean, I think that it's actually having an impact. I mean, it wouldn't be having the impact that it is if the economic situation isn't what it is right now. I mean, the prices are going up, the import tax due to the tariffs, the emergency ones on top of the regular ones. It's something like 19%. It was around 2 to 3% when he started in office. So people are feeling that sticker shock and that pain. And so it makes other political issues more salient. Now, I will say that I think the Epstein issue hits so hard because, one, it's really like a low barrier to entry for people to understand this story. It's about elites getting away with unspeakable crimes, and it's salacious, and people are interested in that kind of thing. But I think it was because Trump always positioned himself as basically like a class traitor, right? As a rich guy who was going to go after the other elites, the secret cabals that were ruining your life. This flips this. This shows that Trump is, as most of us, you know, who pay attention and aren't. MAGA knew that, of course, he was one of the elites. He was a part of this group of people exploiting girls, allegedly. And he was, at the very least, associating with Jeffrey Epstein. And so it breaks this facade that he is the guy coming in and challenging power. And I think, unfortunately, the Democrats have done a really bad job in recent years in dividing MAGA from the Republican Party. They'll talk a lot about how there are really good Republicans like Liz Cheney and campaign with her and things like that, when they could have all this time been tying Trump to the deeply unpopular Republican Party and making him an establishment figure in that way. So this is delayed, but I'm grateful that it's happening because it shows that he is just as dirty as the rest of them.
- [37:29]
Van Lathan
Do you see this as being anything substantive? I mean, with all the different breadcrumbs that are out there in your heart of hearts, do you believe that Donald Trump is either protecting somebody very close to him that he knows has engaged in something nefarious or protecting himself?
- [37:47]
Emma Viglund
I can give my theory, sure. And again, this is just a theory.
- [37:50]
Van Lathan
Theory. Allegedly. Theory. Allegedly. Allegedly. Theory.
- [37:54]
Emma Viglund
Yeah.
- [37:55]
Van Lathan
Allegedly.
- [37:55]
Emma Viglund
Allegedly. Allegedly protecting us all legally. All of us here are protected legally. Right, Rachel?
- [38:01]
Rachel
Right.
- [38:01]
Emma Viglund
Okay, thank you. I got it. But, you know, I think that the theory about him being tied to intelligence is the most likely theory. Epstein, you mean Epstein. I think, you know, one we can go back to the Maxwell family. And Robert Maxwell was almost very likely associated with Mossad, and he was involved in arms dealing. And he had a state funeral in Israel at the time, which was a bit peculiar. And Jeffrey Epstein had associations with the Iran Contra arms dealer. I forget his first name, but his last name was Khashoggi. Different than the. The guy that was recently dismembered. And you saw that he was in the arms trade Basically. And so with Maxwell Ghislaine, Maxwell's father, and his close ties to Israeli intelligence. And then you have Ehud Barak, the Prime Minister of Israel, being one of his closest confidants and associates. And Dropsite, which is a great, great.
- [38:55]
Van Lathan
Outlet that people should check out place that's covering it.
- [38:58]
Emma Viglund
Yeah.
- [38:58]
Van Lathan
If you guys were to read drop site news right now, you'd get a treasure trove of stuff that directly links Jeffrey Epstein, in my opinion, to state operation and things that are going on with Israel.
- [39:11]
Emma Viglund
And yeah, you'll see that reporting of how he was a liaison with Ehud Barak and the Russian government over Assad and Syria and trying to broker those kinds of back channels, which is only something that someone very high up in intelligence would do. And like blackmail is a part of intelligence operations. That's how you get people, you get dirt on people. This is what spies do. Yeah. And I, so that is my theory on that front. People don't like to talk about it because of a long standing existing anti Jewish trope about Jews controlling the media. Where I'd love to flip this on its head and have people zoom out a little bit about it is it's not about Jewish people. Israel functions as our military intelligence outpost, as our colony in the Middle East. That's basically how it is. And we have a lot of technological overlap with them. We share military technology. People could read this book, the Palestine Laboratory by Anthony Lowenstein, which talks about how weaponry, new weaponry developed here and in Israel is tested on the Palestinians prior to the genocide that's happened. So it's about US Militarism and imperialism. It's not about Jewish people. And we have to emphasize that over and over again because people like Marjorie Taylor Greene are conflating the two. And the Democrats, unfortunately, have left this big opening by avoiding the issue and being horrible on it and still supporting Israel, many of them not all for really bad nefarious actors and Christian nationalists, Christian nationalists like Marjorie Taylor Greene to lead people down roads that are just genuinely hateful. And I'm sorry to mess with your civil rights hero.
- [40:51]
Van Lathan
What are you doing?
- [40:53]
Emma Viglund
Yeah.
- [40:53]
Van Lathan
Are you trying to tell me that Marjorie Taylor King, the newest, latest, most important civil rights leader the world. Are you trying to tell me that there's something insincere about what it is that she's doing? Are you? How could you say that?
- [41:10]
Emma Viglund
I, I, I tend to think of Trump as the Martin Luther King of our time, so I think we have a God.
- [41:16]
Rachel
Oh, another hot take. Whoa, Emma, please keep going.
- [41:21]
Emma Viglund
I went. I went for the risky joke and realized that that could immediately be taken.
- [41:25]
Rachel
Out of context, especially on higher learning.
- [41:27]
Emma Viglund
Yep.
- [41:28]
Van Lathan
Well, our audience will get it. But when this ends up on Mark Levine, we can't.
- [41:35]
Emma Viglund
We can't break it out.
- [41:36]
Rachel
Emma, please explain yourself.
- [41:38]
Emma Viglund
Okay, no, that is absolutely not how I think. I mean, I'm perplexed at the amount of. It's really not actual leftists. It's just opportunists online who are falling for this Marjorie Taylor Greene thing. They want her on their shows. She's saying something interesting. She's clearly attempting to moderate herself for the future. She's burned by the fact that Trump didn't support her to run for Senate in Georgia. And so she is lashing out against him. And she's doing what he did, really, in 2016, which is saying the things that the MAGA base, specifically the more online younger MAGA base, wants you to say, but that the Republican establishment will not in the way that Trump did in 2016. If you recall, you know, he was calling about out the Bush family and the Iraq war. Remember that? I mean, she's doing something similar right now with Israel and Palestine. My. But she'll do so. And then she'll tweet at AIPAC like, I don't want your Shekels. And it goes, okay.
- [42:35]
Van Lathan
So we see where this is deeply, deeply anti Semitic.
- [42:38]
Emma Viglund
Deeply, deeply anti Semitic. And so that is part of what we've been screaming about on our show is just the constant conflation of Zionism and Judaism is going to lead to more anti Semitism. And we're seeing it, of course, in the rise of Nick Fuentes and the fact that he's being normalized by institutions like the Heritage foundation and Tucker Carlson and I mean, Candace Owens, I don't know what she's on, but she's all over this stuff, too. And those are really popular podcasts. And so we're seeing a rise of hatred and extremism towards a variety of different groups. But this one is one where I do lay a lot of the blame on the Democrats for not filling that.
- [43:17]
Rachel
Vacuum with what's happening right now with the news, with Epstein, the Epstein files in Congress. Do you think that the public cynicism about Epstein, the Epstein case, has lasting political consequences?
- [43:32]
Emma Viglund
Oh, gosh. I mean, I think so. I think because of the dynamic that I was alluding to earlier, just about it being such a problem for Trump's political brand, like both the Democratic and Republican parties are incredibly unpopular. And you see who the most Power. Popular politicians are in the country. Trump overperforms the Republican Party every time he's on the ballot. Right. Like we saw in 2022, the Democrats did surprisingly well in the midterms we just saw in these last elections in 2025, Democrats sweeping across the country. And that's in part because Trump has the capacity to turn out low information voters, low propensity voters, because he speaks to them directly. And it feels like in some perverse way, he's one of them. I heard Judith. Judith Miller was. I believe it was Judith Miller saying how Trump, for so many of his supporters, they know that he's lying, but what they enjoy is they get a thrill out of him doing it or getting away with it. Right. In ways that they can't. And so when he is not one of them, when he is just another elite and he's the guy raising your prices and your rent keeps going up and your groceries are like 50% higher than they were six months ago, that makes that a little bit harder. So, like, with the low propensity voters and with this being kind of a low barrier to entry story about what elites are doing and the fact that they keep getting away with everything, I think it could have a lasting impact. And these Republicans who are gonna. Now that they have enough signatures for this discharge petition, these Republicans in the House, they're all up for reelection in a year in November 2026. And Thomas Massie was saying to them, your vote on this, on protecting pedophiles is going to last way longer than Trump does and his political life, and they will do best to remember that. So the fact that we're creating this tension within the Republican Party, I mean, we don't. We don't have a lot of wins right now. It's been a very dark period. But this, for me, it's this. You, my. The. The Democratic Party's job should be. They're doing it to themselves, but the Democratic Party's job should be to cleave the Republicans apart and create issues with them internally and. And fissures. And this is the most significant fissure that I've seen since Trump got elected around a year ago.
- [46:00]
Rachel
Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that, you know, with what happened November 4th and the. It felt like the pendulum was shifting and the earth moving towards one way. And then we get the government, the eight Democrats that decide, hey, we're gonna vote in order to reopen the government and all of that, it's like, okay, man. It feels like we had this momentum and then now it stopped. Then we have what we have with the Epstein files, and it's like, okay, things are back. It's a thing that Trump can't escape, which I find so funny. It's like we always keep coming back to this, which is interesting, right? Because he was the guy who was like, oh, I can shoot somebody and I'll get away with it, but you can't escape the Epstein files. So with the new revelations within the Epstein files, in this whole world, what do you consider the most consequential? And within that, what does it reveal about power, about accountability, and about justice?
- [46:55]
Emma Viglund
Gosh. I guess I think of Epstein as the culmination of really probably decades of impunity towards elites, both in, like, finance and in power positions. And for billionaires and in our politics, we can go to Nixon being pardoned. We can go to Iran Contra and Reagan getting away with that. We can go to the Iraq war, which was an illegal war, and we killed hundreds of thousands of people in that region. Hundreds of thousands, and nobody in this country paid for that. How about the criminals that. That crashed our economy? On Wall street, there was no accountability on that.
- [47:36]
Van Lathan
They got rich, they got richer.
- [47:38]
Emma Viglund
Oh, my gosh. I read the statistic the other day. It was saying that since, by the way, since 2020 to 2024, it was nearly the top 12 billionaires in this country increased their wealth by over 190% in just four years. And that. That's criminal to me. I mean, like, that was basically a moment of shock for everybody in the country. And you saw the wealthy and powerful, I mean, exploiting existing loopholes. But still it's criminal in the way that, like, people feel these material impacts when that amount of wealth is concentrated and not returned to the people at the very top. So I think, like, that's part of why people have lost faith in democracy. If you don't see democratic responsiveness or consequences at the very top, why do you have faith that you should be, you know, engaging with your neighbor? Why you should believe in community? Maybe the best way forward for you is just to see, you know, some people brutalized on the streets by ICE and making. Making it so that your life, at least, is better by comparison, or having someone to blame. And so I think that the Epstein story is really an accumulation of a lack of accountability for powerful people that, frankly, both parties have been complicit in. Like Nancy Pelosi, when she took over towards the end of Bush's second term, the party's position flat out was, we're not going to do anything about the Iraq war. We're not going to really do these investigations. And I think many Republicans in particular took lessons from that and not good ones.
- [49:17]
Van Lathan
Why are you a progressive?
- [49:18]
Emma Viglund
Oh, gosh, I guess I, I, my, my parents are both lawyers, so I grew up in a household where we Arguing is a love language. Also arguing about politics is a love language. And I, Obama's campaign in 282008 was a political awakening for me, and the Iraq war was a big part of that. I couldn't understand how people I knew were supporting Hillary Clinton when she voted for this thing. When I was learning more and more about it, about how illegal it was, about how many people we killed, about how we destabilized the region, about how the Bush administration lied us into it. I felt such anger about things like the torture regime and imperialism broadly, and then, you know, incoming wealth inequality. I guess my viewpoint is that we are the richest country on the planet and yet we have such low quality of life standards for so many people in this country. We should guarantee healthcare to them. We should guarantee things like childcare. We should bring ourselves to the level of other industrialized nations across the world because we have the resources. And I don't know, I guess I speak out a lot about something like the genocide in Gaza or the Middle East. Right. Because I grew up outside of New York City. And I still also remember feeling such anger about Islamophobia, in particular, the Soran Mamdani race has brought up a lot of that and the way that we act in this country, as if our foreign policy doesn't have an impact on the rest of the world and that they just hate us for our freedom and that we're not still acting in a way that is imperial and is harmful to other people. There was an injustice in that that really angered me and of course, like, domestically as well. But I was always a nerd. Like, I was the president of Young Democrats in my high school. I named my first dog Lincoln after Abraham Lincoln. I used to, yes, I used to write, like, little fan fiction stories about, like, the civil rights movement, which were probably really cringy for a little white girl. If I were to go it wasn't.
- [51:32]
Van Lathan
Maybe I could tell you you were the one. It was a story where. Let me tell you why. I can tell you how these stories go. So the story is that Emma is, she's rushing. She's in Washington D.C. she's rushing. She's rushing. She bumps into Dr. King and Dr. King's whoa. Young lady, slow down. You don't want to run over your future. And she goes, yes, Dr. King, but I have to go tell someone. I've been having this dream. I have a dream, and I have to tell somebody about it. And Dr. King goes, well, now, young lady, I have a dream. That sounds like something I can relate to. And then it flips back and you're in the audience on the mall, and Dr. King is saying, I have a dream, and then you. Tears. Credits. That's how those stories go.
- [52:29]
Emma Viglund
I take credit for the I have a Dream speech, obviously. You know what I rewatched recently? What I rewatched recently was Back to the Future.
- [52:37]
Van Lathan
Oh, that's where I got that from. Where a white man invents rock and roll.
- [52:42]
Emma Viglund
Yes. Yeah, yeah. That's the. That's. Sorry.
- [52:45]
Rachel
Spoiler alert.
- [52:46]
Emma Viglund
Well, don't.
- [52:46]
Rachel
Well, it did not age well.
- [52:49]
Van Lathan
Crime. So in Back to the Future.
- [52:50]
Emma Viglund
Yes.
- [52:51]
Van Lathan
Marty McFly sings Johnny Be Good and blows their minds.
- [52:55]
Emma Viglund
He goes, in the 50s, they haven't heard it before. Right, Right. Yeah.
- [52:58]
Van Lathan
And behind one of the band members is, like. He calls on the phone. He goes, hey, cousin Chuck, you know that sound you said you've been listening to? Check out this. And then he puts the phone up there so he can hear Marty playing Johnny B. Goode, as if Marty invented that shit that blacks from the South.
- [53:18]
Rachel
Rock and roll.
- [53:19]
Emma Viglund
Yeah.
- [53:19]
Rachel
Got it.
- [53:20]
Van Lathan
It literally did not dawn on me till I was, like, 14 years old how fucked up that scene was. All right, ask you about one more thing here. As far as it talks about the progressives, I've seen you defend Grand Platinum. Okay. So I like Grant Platner's politics.
- [53:34]
Emma Viglund
Yep.
- [53:35]
Van Lathan
I like the idea of Grand Platner. We've talked about it on the podcast here. I'm having an issue, and this is the issue. It seems as if Graham Platner is addressing some of the controversial and frankly, racist things in this past with other white people.
- [53:51]
Emma Viglund
Yeah.
- [53:51]
Van Lathan
And it doesn't seem as if he is making the effort to reach out to the black parts of the progressive base and have the conversation with them about his mindset. I saw him go on Pod Save. I saw him go on Breaking Points. I haven't seen him actually take any steps to talk to black people about this. This is a critique of the progressive wing that I have. It is not racially essentialist, and I get that. I understand that it is a class essentialism that exists over there. However, I do feel like sometimes there are specifics about the black experience in America. We had rep. SUMMER LEE on. And she was talking a little bit about this.
- [54:31]
Emma Viglund
She's awesome.
- [54:32]
Van Lathan
That we have got to address particularly for trust so that we can trust so that we can have open dialogue. Do you think that Platner should be talking to black people about some of these issues? And do you see the critiques that somebody like me might have of him?
- [54:48]
Emma Viglund
I think, you know, I see exactly what you're saying and I think he should come on your show and talk about it. That's probably would be a good idea.
- [54:56]
Van Lathan
Our show, the Breakfast Club. Joe Button.
- [55:00]
Rachel
Don't go there.
- [55:00]
Van Lathan
Drink champs.
- [55:01]
Rachel
Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop.
- [55:02]
Emma Viglund
No, just here.
- [55:03]
Van Lathan
No, no, no, no, no.
- [55:04]
Rachel
I'm not gonna do that to a conversation with him.
- [55:06]
Van Lathan
No, I'm not gonna do that to other black platforms. Like talk to. I don't want to make us. I don't want to make us like the end all, be all, purity, litmus test of any of that. There are a lot of black. Go talk to Sway, but talk to somebody black. I'm not trying to go out and get guests for higher learning.
- [55:23]
Emma Viglund
Right. I like your politics, though. So I just feel like it would be a good. It would be a good fit. But I think overall the progressive media YouTube space is too white. So that's a big part of the problem is that I think there's also been a cleaving and I've talked about this really behind the scenes about, like how we can better about the. Do better about this with our show too, is because there it still exists really from 2016 within the Democratic coalition and on where I think that sometimes black voters, and I don't want to speak for black voters, but maybe had a rightful reticence towards Bernie supporters who were more militant, were whiter, and were also based on some of the framing.
- [56:11]
Van Lathan
They were arrogant as well.
- [56:13]
Emma Viglund
Yeah. And less concerned about, I would say Hillary at least. And some people framed many Bernie supporters as less concerned about Republicans taking power. And my argument has always been is that people and communities that are on the front lines are naturally going to be more aggressive about trying to keep Republicans out of power than pushing, say, boundaries in the way that Bernie Sanders was at that time. And that divide still exists. It exists in the progressive media space. And so I guess I'm not shocked that Platner has been going on a lot of white progressive shows because a lot of progressive shows are really white. Also, Maine is incredibly white. So there is a disconnect between how the online left is responding to this and how Maine has been responding to this. And Maine is a very rural area and it's very specific and community based. And you see how he's getting all these, you know, town halls out and turning so many people out. But I think your critique is very valid and I've heard his analysis be fairly intersectional. I've heard that he's apologized for those kinds of things, but it would benefit him to respond more to it, and he probably should.
- [57:27]
Van Lathan
Roland Martin, Native Land. Any one of those places. Bad Faith Podcast. Any one of those places. Platner, you gotta do it. I'm not gonna get off your ass until you do it.
- [57:36]
Emma Viglund
But I will say, and just to add, Sorry, Rachel, but just a quick point about like. Like when progressives also start winning. You know, you saw that Zoramdani lagged with the black vote in New York and then it flipped in the general election when he had the D by his name. Just to talk about my thesis a little bit. Hey, I know how it sounds.
- [57:57]
Rachel
Yeah, I know. You gotta just keep it moving. Just keep it moving.
- [58:02]
Emma Viglund
And that is the cha. That is where progressives also need to be better and more disciplined and less scolding, which is. Is that sometimes the communities that are on the front lines, they want to win because they know when Republicans are in power, what the fuck happens, right? Yeah, they know what the fuck happens. And there has to be a sensitivity to that. And I think we're way better than we were in 2016 on that front. I'm hopeful that we were. And I was very encouraged to see the massive turnaround that Zoran had with those voters, which was him directly engaging with that fear, with their concerns. And of course, Platner should be doing that as well.
- [58:38]
Rachel
And I want to pick up on that because I don't think it's just progressives or the party, in a sense. I think it's the media narrative and how that they represent progressives and how they brand, specifically progressives. And if you could talk a little bit about that. How does the media narrative, Sorry, I'm in a hotel, forget the doorbell that's in the background. How does the media narrative play into this? I mean, they have the ability. When you talk about Mamdani and how the vote shifted, you know, it's. If the media narrative presented, you know, Democratic socialists or progressives a certain way, it could really change how certain people feel about the progressive party, the progressive movement. So, like, what would you say about that?
- [59:24]
Emma Viglund
Oh, well, you know, that. That's a great observation. And I. I think that really the Democrats don't do what the Republicans do with the media, which is that the Democrats let. The Democrats are defensive with media narratives and the Republicans go on the offensive and they change the media narrative. I mean, remember Benghazi? How many like Benghazi? Benghazi, Benghazi. And then no one even knows what it was. But they know Hillary Clinton, she did something wrong or whatever, or her emails. And they even Trump. This is just so amazing to me. Just to back up for A second, in 2012, Obama was losing for a while in his reelection effort because the economic recovery was so slow. But he started leaning into going after Mitt Romney in a more populous way as an out of touch elitist. And the election results turned around so much for him that the Republicans put together a memo about how they need to soften their stance on immigration. This was in 2012. How they need to be kinder to Latinos, how they need to bring them into their coalition and need to change the way that immigration to move almost to the left a little bit. Trump comes in 2016 down the escalator. They're rapists, they're criminals. And now we're here with this ICE Gestapo terrorizing people, throwing them into torture dungeons. I mean, it is absolutely horrific what we're seeing the Trump administration do. He changed that media narrative by just sticking to his insanity, to his brutality, but to his messaging over and over again. And you see how far to the right these things have swung. Kamala Harris was out there in 2024 saying over and over again, I prosecute transnational criminal organizations. I'm going to go, you know, right. Trying to be, be tough on immigration. So that's where the Republicans are really strong is, is that they get the meat, they get the media to bend to their will. The Democrats don't do that. And they could. But I do think that they push that narrative that you're mentioning there, Rachel, which is just that, just that these are a bunch of white, like communists in Brooklyn that support Zoran Mamdani when we know that he won lower income voters this time around. He won black voters, he won Latino voters, he won white people. Yeah, he drove up numbers in Brooklyn. But it doesn't match what they're actually saying about progressives in the media. And that's because I think in that instance, the Democratic Party is specifically leaving that vacuum out there to have that perception. They, the, the institutions in the Democratic Party are terrified of a candidate like Zoram Mamdani and others taking hold in the party. There is a consultant Class that is very financially invested in keeping things as they are. Let's putting aside, you know, leadership and Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries and how they want things to stay the same because that's what got them in power. But the consultant class behind the scenes, they get fees. When you are hyper targeting, say, a small sliver of voters right. In a suburban area in Pennsylvania for Kamala Harris's election, for example, they will get a cut because that ad goes out and is targeting these people in a very specific way. The way that Zoron is running, the way I think that Platner is running, is through a volunteer army, through door knocking through genuine people power. And that doesn't get that class of people rich. And so they are literally financially incentivized, many of these power players in the party behind the scenes who aren't even elected, they're just part of the infrastructure of the Democratic Party. They are literally financially invested in things not changing. And that's part of the backdrop of this, that I want people to understand a little bit more.
- [63:09]
Rachel
When you look at the. Like, you've been. You talked a little bit about it when you were talking to Van, but you've been following progressive politics from Bernie's campaign to what's happening locally in New York City. When you look at the movement today, because I want to, I guess, maybe shift it to something a little bit more positive. But what stands out to you the most? How is it that, to your point, you know, Mamdani was behind with black voters and was able to turn it around. What stands out to you, what's different from maybe the 2016 to where we are right now?
- [63:43]
Emma Viglund
Well, you know, I, I love Bernie Sanders so much. Right. But I was saying this this morning on Pod Save America, he can be a little cantankerous. I wouldn't say he's the best coalition builder, like, internally. Right. I mean, he's a great outside politician and that he gets people so energized and he's always on message. Right. But he doesn't necessarily try to approach things in the way that, that Zoran did, where he's more conciliatory, more about kind of building internal infrastructure. And, and, and I guess that's also local politics where it has to be a bit more transactional. But I do think that he is more willing or has shown more willingness to go to more establishment Democrats with a smile and sell his ideas to them without kind of, you know, throwing his hands up a little bit. He has the interpersonal skills that has really helped. Helped. But I also just think that people are more used to these ideas, like, like Bernie introducing them in 2016. The narrative that he couldn't win was a really potent one. Right. And to go back to what I was saying, the base of the Democratic Party desperately didn't want Trump to win. It was the same reason that, that in many ways, it was easy to coalesce around Joe Biden. That fear of, Trump's gonna win again, Trump's gonna win again, and let's use that. But it's now 2024. We've tried it their way so many times. And two out of the three times, if there wasn't this global pandemic, like, we have lost to this, this maniac over and over again. The guy was out on the, on the campaign trail saying they're eating cats and dogs and, like, had nothing to offer people. The tariff regime was insane on its face. He just wanted to stay out of jail. His ego was wrapped up in it, and that was all he was offering. And how was that enough? And I get it, it's blaming the voters. It makes sense. You know, I wish the voters were more civically minded and more educated, but it's incumbent upon the opposition party to make a case on, on their own behalf, and they've done a horrible job of doing that. So I guess in terms of what's changed, I would also say that winning changes things. It creates a snowball effect. The fact that he was able to win that primary and show that he could win, people want to get on board with a winner. And once you show that a guy like him or it's possible, this Democratic socialist, this Muslim immigrant who can run a campaign like this, it makes people more confident to get on board with campaigns that could also be winners in the future. So winning is really important, a really important part of it. And he, and, and, and sorry, just one quick point on that. He also won because in New York City, this should be across the country. We should have this and this. I might try to write an article on this.
- [66:33]
Van Lathan
Ranked Choice voting.
- [66:34]
Emma Viglund
Ranked choice Voting. But more importantly, matching funds. Matching, matching, matching funds. Zoran could not have won that primary if he did not have matching funds provided by New York City, which is, if I think it's 7 to 1 or 8 to 1, I forget the exact ratio. But if you are a New York City resident, you have to provide identifiable information and you donate to his campaign. The city will match that at a rate that. That escapes me. At the very top of my head that allowed him to be competitive with a guy like Andrew Cuomo who had a bunch of money from billionaires and millionaires that was dumped into this race. And if we really, really want to, want to combat corruption, I want to see more states and cities adopt things like matching funds.
- [67:17]
Rachel
Super quick follow up. You say everyone likes a winner, which is very, very true. Do you think that what we saw in that race locally can be scalable and something that could be done on a national level?
- [67:29]
Emma Viglund
Yeah. So there's obstacles, you know what you're saying? Like the matching funds thing was a big success, but we also have social media, the bully pulpit on our side, and the fact that just our ideas actually are ideas and they're not just let's cut Medicaid and throw millions and millions of people off their health care and raise your premiums by double or whatever. It is like there that if Democrats are unafraid of selling their ideas, I think that there's momentum, especially with Trump off the ballot, to cut through some of the, some of the noise and provide something in that way. But this has to be a turn back to really the Obama coalition, which has been decimated by the leadership of the Democratic Party since he was first elected in 2008, which is that Chuck Schumer said in 2016, for every working class voter we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will gain two in the suburbs of Philadelphia. And that has been one of the greatest failures of Democratic politics in the history of the party. If not, I mean, if not the greatest, because that's just not happened. We have lost working class, blue collar voters. Why I like a guy like Graham Platner is with warts and all. I think that that is the kind of guy that can win in areas like that in redder states. And not every one is going to have perfect politics and agree with, you know, mine and, and yours maybe, but if they are endorsed by unions and they put working people first and they are of the community, that means that they're not like bought. Why, why does the APAC thing take off? It's because it's a shorthand for people to understand, are you bought or are you not? Can you stand up for me on this or can you stand up on this issue? Because then you can probably stand up for me on other ones. And that, that's, that's my feeling about it is it's basically like if the Democratic Party gets out of our way, my hope is, is that the momentum from this, the outrage and people's just kind of material conditions will lead to more candidates like this.
- [69:35]
Van Lathan
Do you view the Democrats as controlled opposition?
- [69:38]
Emma Viglund
It's hard not to think that. I mean, I think on a national level, the Senate, the Senate is such a rotten institution. You know, the, there was a time under Biden when there were 50 Democratic senators and 50 Republicans. And the 50 Democratic senators represented 40 million more people than the 50 Republicans just because of the nature of the Senate. Montana, Wyoming gets, they each get two senators, so does California, so does New York. Doesn't make sense. But that's, it's, it's already undemocratic. Just when you look at it like that. And then we have the filibuster, right, where you have to get a 60 vote threshold for basically any legislation that doesn't involve the budget. And it means that that body is there as a check or has turned into a check on democracy. Like the House. It's, there's, you can see people like Summer Lee or AOC or Ilhan Omar and you're like, okay, we get it. These people are representative of their constituents. But in the Senate they're so ossified. They have these six year terms and then when they're there, they're basically, their job is to keep things running as normal. So I wouldn't say they're controlled opposition in a majority of instances. I think House Democrats are more connected to their constituents for sure. And I think that the best examples of opposition to fascism that we're seeing are coming from the state level. I have my issues with Newsom, but I like what he's doing against Trump. JB Pritzker, he's standing up to Trump too. And Zoram Mamdani as well, like saying, I'll arrest Netanyahu if he comes and I'm going to stand up to Trump the whole time because they actually have to legislate. And what Chuck Schumer and the Democrats do in the Senate is they're basically like treating it as like a contract negotiation. Oh, we've got it. Like, we've got to work with our colleagues. We've got to come up with something that makes the government function. They, they don't have the capacity to fight because they're like contract lawyers basically. And I think that that's part of the problem is that the Senate as an institution, with the exception of people like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren, really incentivizes people to be just institutionalists who don't rock the boat. And it's why we saw that group of senators with the consent of Schumer, he's pretending that it wasn't the case. But you can't pick it. You can't have it both ways. You can't say that you weren't involved in this negotiation to end the shutdown with these centrist Democrats, many of whom are retiring or who are not up until 2028 or 2030, which is not a coincidence, or either you weren't involved and you just, like your caucus, did something willy nilly without your consent, which makes you a horrible leader. Nancy Pelosi kept her caucus together. That's part of why people thought she was an effective leader. Or you knew which is more likely the case. And you have. And you have plausible deniability. And so Wall street hates the shutdown. It messes with the markets, and the airline lobby was incredibly pissed and was working the phones. And that's where we are.
- [72:46]
Van Lathan
If a kid walked up to you and said, hey, why doesn't my daddy have healthcare? What would you say to that kid.
- [72:53]
Emma Viglund
Oh, gosh, how old's this kid?
- [72:56]
Van Lathan
This kid's the same age that you were when you gave the I have a dream speech to Dr. King. But if someone, an American citizen, asked you, the people that I vote for can't seem to get the health care fight right? Why don't I have health care?
- [73:13]
Emma Viglund
I would say that there is a mafia middleman in between you and your healthcare. And that mafia middleman is the health insurance industry, where there is really no reason for them to take a cut at all. We could have a single payer. That could be the government. That would create the largest risk pool, which makes it so healthcare would be cheaper because everybody would be included. Right. We could have single payer that would cut out essentially the profit incentive in between you and your healthcare. That's how they function. It's like how mobsters operate where they take a cut out of your business in exchange for some sort of protection. But in this instance, it's for profit. And so that's how I would explain it to people.
- [73:59]
Van Lathan
If when you talk about single payer, the retort is always, well, if that happens, the quality of care goes down, you get backed up. That competition is what keeps American healthcare on the cutting edge. To that you say, what?
- [74:14]
Emma Viglund
Well, I would say that our life expectancy numbers dragging behind those other countries and China's caught up. Oh, China's like building glue for bones. I'm like, not even joking. They are way ahead of us on so many things, and that's because they have a strong central state that directs that kind of investment. I'm not saying the Chinese government is perfect, but we have, we believe in laissez faire economics, which is just profit incentive. Just a quick aside, like these MRNA vaccinations, they happen really quickly, the COVID ones, because of state investment. We could be doing that for things like cancer research. MRNA shows promise with cancer research, for example. But because there wasn't a profit, there isn't a profit motive for these pharmaceutical companies. They're not going to pursue it without a big injection of funds from the government. But I would say that, yes, our life expectancy is lower than industrialized nations that have universal health care. Our maternal mortality rate is higher than those countries specifically for women of color and for people on the front lines of society. And that there will always be the opportunity for wealthy people to get their bespoke healthcare and to go to the best surgeons. It's not, it's not untrue that the United States does have the best health care if you are a millionaire and if you can afford it, because, well, at least until recently, our universities used to be like these beacons of education and research, and people would want to come here and have our facilities and institutions. And the Trump administration is trying to do away with that too. So that would be. My argument, is that none of the actual tangible statistics about our healthcare outcomes would support that our system is more efficient or anything close to that.
- [75:58]
Rachel
It's so interesting when you talk about that this is not about healthcare, but I was at a dinner recently and it was about kind of AI and technology. And they were saying, well, globally. What are people saying? And they were like, globally. No one is saying anymore that they want to be like the United States. No one is like, I want to do what they're doing. We're already doing it on our own or better when it comes to certain things. So it's just interesting when you talk.
- [76:25]
Van Lathan
About what's the AI dinner?
- [76:26]
Rachel
Hey, Sham. I'm going to keep going.
- [76:29]
Van Lathan
I'm going to keep moving.
- [76:30]
Rachel
No. Okay, that's.
- [76:32]
Van Lathan
What did Jitson Wong have to say?
- [76:33]
Rachel
I said technology. I set myself up for that one. I'm going to keep on moving. I'm going to change the subject.
- [76:38]
Van Lathan
Wait till Rachel hashtag add. I love the GPU from invented Nvidia. I wake up with it like, GPUs 40k a piece. Watch.
- [76:48]
Rachel
I know, I know you understand it now. Stop. So I'm gonna totally change the subject here.
- [76:54]
Emma Viglund
All right.
- [76:54]
Rachel
Unless Dan has a follow up. Thank you so much. You know I got a divorce to pay for, but that's beside the point.
- [77:05]
Emma Viglund
Congratulations.
- [77:06]
Rachel
Thank you so much. I'll be a New Woman In 2026 when it's all done at the top of 2026. I want to talk about the GOP, because we had a conversation. I don't know if it was on our last podcast or the podcast before where we were talking about kind of the state of it. And I'm interested for you. How would you characterize the gop? Because there are clearly cracks in it within its leadership, within its supporters. And how. 1. How would you characterize it? And how deep do you think these cracks actually are?
- [77:38]
Emma Viglund
The. I was skeptical of the idea of cracks until really, like, recently, but I would characterize it as a. A party that is moving away from liberal democracy towards something darker. I think that broadly right now, liberalism is failing, like in the sense that. In the classic sense of the word liberalism of liberal for people's rights, individual rights, but also liberal for the marketplace, allow the marketplace to. To do what they need to do and to provide services for people. And so broadly, we're seeing reactions to that. Across with both political parties under Biden, there was even more of an effort to. And I like these efforts to onshore our manufacturing, for example, where it's like, now these complex supply chains can't survive shocks to it, like during COVID they're going to. You need to have things produced more domestically in order to create more efficiency. It's not that the market can't solve this. There has to be state investment to create this kind of thing. The Democrats don't go far enough on that. But where the Republicans have gone has been to essentially a cult of personality and a party that is obsequious to that cult of personality. And they just do whatever Donald Trump says. And so there is that authoritarian quality to it, which I think is one side of the spectrum of a failure of. Yeah, the last, maybe the devolution of the last, like 50 years of liberalism. And that's, I guess, how I'd characterize them. They've always been, the Republicans and the conservative movement, a malignant force in our society, but never have they been so thoroughly captured by the whims of one totally insane, aging, psychotic, narcissistic individual in a way that, like, it doesn't always make sense. Oh, this is the other way that they're also moving away from the. From the liberalism that I described with the tariffs. I mean, the tariffs are absolutely bonkers. They are. Trump was implementing a tariff or Said, I'm implementing a tariff, a high tariff in Brazil, because I don't like that their courts locked up JR Bolsonaro, their former far right leader, for trying to orchestrate a coup. So I'm just gonna do that as if that's America first. But it's using the power of the state heavily to influence markets in ways that we hadn't seen in previous Republican administrations. And even the Democrats were starting to come around to that. So they're reacting to the failures of our global economic system in different ways. And the Republican Party is becoming a proto fascist party. Now. Trump's deep unpopularity could be an off ramp. And we're going to see what happens with these Epstein votes because if they go against him, Trump is saying, we're going to primary you. But he's weak now. He has a -18 approval rating. It's really important that we remind people of that because they act like they're invincible. And it's important for their projection of power to act like they're invincible. They both, they love to project like they're the most powerful people in the world, but they're also the biggest snowflakes whose feelings get hurt at the drop of a hat. They're both weak and incredibly strong at the same time. That's the fascist playbook. But reminding people that, no, this administration is really unpopular, people don't like what they're doing. We don't have to be complicit in this. We don't have to go along with it, I think is helpful. What is the Republican Party after Trump? I mean, Rachel Van, your guys's like, guess is as good as mine, but I think Marjorie Taylor Greene to bring back our social justice warrior into the conversation. She sees a future post Trump and she's setting herself up for it. And the question is, will the rest of the Republicans do the same?
- [81:36]
Van Lathan
Before we get you out of here, I want to ask you something, because I not only cover the Civil War and all of the mess on the right, I cover it on the left, too. So when I'm watching the guys over at the Vanguard, I like those, those fucking little whipper snappers he loves.
- [81:52]
Rachel
Yeah, shout out to them.
- [81:54]
Emma Viglund
I mean, they do like, people don't know. They do like a little drama channel they cover. They critique left wing media. They've critiqued me, but they, but less so recently.
- [82:04]
Van Lathan
They are the guys that you go to when you want to see who's in a tizzy on the left. Right. Who's in a tizzy on the Left. And they've covered extensively. You versus Tyt.
- [82:17]
Emma Viglund
Yeah, yeah.
- [82:18]
Van Lathan
Chank and Anna over there, the young Turks. Now, I'm going to be honest about something right now. When I first started seeing progressive media, that is what I saw. Same when I first started seeing progressive media, it was who is that man talking? Doing the thing. It was him and then it was Anna. Then they built it out and you.
- [82:40]
Emma Viglund
Saw all kinds of Sean Iadarola, Ben Nanquist.
- [82:42]
Van Lathan
Of course.
- [82:43]
Donnie
Yeah.
- [82:44]
Van Lathan
Now it seems like. Or I won't say now, but definitely earlier it seemed like there was something different that was happening over there and you and a lot of other people called it out. What do you see as useful and nutritious disagreement amongst progressives? And what do you see as things that are non useful? Like I saw that between you and Anna particularly. It did get kind of personal at one point.
- [83:14]
Emma Viglund
Well, sure, we were friends before, so it was personal in that way. And it stunk because there are not a lot of women in my industry. And so it was very helpful to have her as a resource at the time. But I have now, like great friends and Crystal Ball, you're a fan of Breaking Points. She's. She's amazing. She's amazing.
- [83:32]
Van Lathan
Can I say some of Breaking Points real quick? Real quick. So what I like about Breaking Points is that Crystal and Sagar are like not ideologically aligned.
- [83:41]
Emma Viglund
Yes.
- [83:42]
Van Lathan
However, they have conversations about things and can. Yes. And each other or disagree in a way that is very nutritious and still lays out both of their frameworks without a pissing contest. I really appreciate the part. I really appreciate that.
- [83:57]
Emma Viglund
Platform people love that show. And I mean, like, I really appreciate it too. I obviously agree more with Crystal than I do with Sagar, but like, you know, they have a different flavor to it in that they're both critical of their own parties. Right. I think. Yeah. I think Crystal is probably having a bit of a moment right now because the Republicans are so insane. So it's hard for Saga to defend it. But yeah, I mean, I think it was personal in the. On their end, I. We had viewer questions. Anna had said. Said things about, you know, she doesn't want to be called a birthing person, which. And it got really upset about it. And so we had viewers respond and then we responded on air and then she got upset about that and then started this whole thing. But, you know, she's not a progressive anymore. She like announced that she's unaligned or I forget what the word is. So, yeah, we're going to be Critical of that, like my foundation in friendship with her or even like when I was working there. It's not like my, you know, I have disagreements with my friends I grew up from. I with, I have friends I grew up with who are Republicans. But that's not the basis of our friendship. It's a shared history. It's growing up together. The basis of my friendships in my professional career are based on shared values. And what I saw them doing was a, you know, a dereliction of the, the, the, the message or the, the way that I thought that the company was oriented. And then I had experiences working there where I kind of saw how the workplace was and how it didn't necessarily match, I would say a left wing workplace. And so they're, I think they're just a little bit bummed out that we're, I think a smaller show and subscriber count, but we do a lot better than them view wise these days. And that's because they're going down this like kind of populist lane that I would argue throws a lot of marginalized people under the bus and, and shout out to creators like Olay. Amy, Lauren, Ha ha. Who saw this earlier. Fantastic, fantastic. Olay is a friend of mine too. So, you know, there aren't a lot of women in our space. I had appreciated that relationship, but it is, yeah, not, not for me anymore because I, I'm not about throwing trans people under the bus. I'm just not. And even they're doing good work in terms of pushing back on the narrative about Israel. And I appreciate that. But I think people should know this. How often do people pay attention to or how often do people focus on criticizing Israel versus advocating for Palestinians in a way that is humanizing? Obviously there's a lot of anger about the genocide and it's really important that we have votes, people that speak out about that. But you, Marjorie Taylor Greene speaking out about that and her vision is not one that should be replicated or advocated for. Absolutely. Because of what I just said earlier about it being one based on Christian nationalism and not egalitarian and egalitarian vision. Something that people should pay attention to is like what do people say about what the solution is in Israel and Palestine? And, and there isn't often. This is kind of a field of what we were talking about, but I guess it includes their commentary or what I've seen of it. What is the solution here? And what we advocate for on our show consistently is that this is like apartheid South Africa, one democratic state from the river to the sea. Palestinians have had their land being systematically taken from them and stolen by Israel for decades. At this point, since 1967, Israel has been illegally occupying East Jerusalem and the west bank, which is supposed to be Palestinian territory by right. It's been, they've been illegally doing this since 1967. And since that point, 700,000 Israeli settlers have moved into the west bank and stolen Palestinian land. So when people talk about a two state solution, what's the answer? You're going to take 700,000, you're going.
- [88:03]
Van Lathan
To move them out?
- [88:03]
Emma Viglund
You're going to move them out? Yeah, okay, good luck with that. You've seen how they're torching Palestinian villages. I mean, it's going to lead to deep, deep unrest. The answer is a shared land and racial integration of Israel and a greater Israel and Palestine. And it's going to be difficult like it was in apartheid South Africa. You're going to need peacekeepers, you're going to need a International Truth and Reconciliation Commission. You're going to need people there to oversee this process. But you can read the works of Israeli new historians like Abi Shlame and Ilan Pape who have been talking about this for years. It is like apartheid South Africa, except now we are in a even deadlier period of it with the genocide. And that's how it needs to be framed. And so when people are paying attention to these critiques of Israel, which again I give them credit for what I've seen in terms of calling it a genocide, being clear about that, if you want a left wing vision, you got to go that other step further. And that's why I don't, I don't fuck with Marjorie Taylor Greene.
- [89:04]
Van Lathan
Oh, sorry.
- [89:07]
Rachel
Sorry to break your life.
- [89:08]
Emma Viglund
But, but, but this is where like Zionists right now we have to make the case for multiculturalism. It's like deeply, deeply important. And I'm really, really frustrated to see the oxygen being taken up by Dog the Bounty Hunter. And that's how I refer to Marjorie Taylor Greene and, and other deep racists like this. Because we, it's not about pitting groups against each other. We need, we need to talk about how living amongst one another, whether it's Palestinians or, and Israelis, whether it's people in your community, it engenders understanding. It is the best antidote to fascism. That is why they're afraid of cities. That is why you hear this obsession with urban crime. That's what. Also Anna and Cenk have been obsessed with the idea that crime was out of control and that we need to. And then the left doesn't take it seriously and that they're pro crime. I mean, it's ridiculous.
- [89:59]
Van Lathan
The math just doesn't make sense.
- [90:01]
Emma Viglund
It doesn't. I mean, there was a temp, there was a Spike in crime, crime 2021 in the wake of COVID Even that.
- [90:07]
Van Lathan
Spike in crime and Covid is it. If you compare that on a 10, 15, 20, more like a 20 or 25 year trend line, it's utopia. Levels of safety. If you compare it to the mid-90s or the 80s or the 70s.
- [90:21]
Emma Viglund
Absolutely. Exactly right. And now we're seeing it precipitously decline, like by double digit percentage points from the last year over violent crime, et cetera. Because it was, yeah, a once in a lifetime, hopefully pandemic. And that was the reaction to it. And at the same time they were kind of pushing against the left on this, saying the left had gone too far. They called us the max left, which we made merch out of hilariously. And, and, and, and, and at the same time, the videos that were being pumped to the top of people's feed of highly racialized urban crime was a deliberate, in my view, attempt by our tech and overlords to try to create this idea that multicultural cities and cities where there's community and different people of all different races living amongst one another, that's a threat to you. You can read Gil Duran's work about the network state, I believe, and how these tech guys want our cities to be very surveilled, clean, cleansed of homeless people, cleansed of crime. And there's like a very dark vision that, that matches quite nicely with the Stephen Millers of the world. And you saw all of this very inflammatory content pushed to the top of people's feeds. Be afraid, be afraid, be afraid. And, and in spite of the statistics that you just, just described, and I think it has led to moments of extremism towards other groups, racism. And I do think that they were partially responsible for furthering that agenda. So that is where my disagreements come in. And for me, I'm in this for like the passion of my beliefs. I'm not in it to make friends. I've made friends along the way. But if you're not gonna share values on this, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm kind of, I'm kind of over it.
- [92:12]
Donnie
So.
- [92:13]
Van Lathan
Emma Viglund.
- [92:14]
Emma Viglund
There we go.
- [92:15]
Van Lathan
Majority reports.
- [92:16]
Rachel
Well done.
- [92:16]
Emma Viglund
Thanks.
- [92:17]
Van Lathan
Every day, every day it comes on. But then there are clips, there are clips where you can hear Sam say Social Security but that's not how he says it. He says Social Security.
- [92:28]
Emma Viglund
He has an undiagnosed speech impediment. Let's be real.
- [92:32]
Van Lathan
When he's talking, he's like, you talk about. You want to go in there. I want to talk about Social Security. I'm like, yeah, I heard. I watched every Sam Cedar Social Security debate everywhere. Everywhere that he talked about it. Social Security, he gets so on fire about that one specific issue. That's kind of what eventually got me then. I don't want to get into that.
- [92:52]
Emma Viglund
No, he's the man we love, Sam, and I learned so much from him. So, yeah, we're on at noon Eastern every weekday and you could check us out at. God, what's our website? I don't remember, but look up the majority report. You'll figure it out.
- [93:07]
Van Lathan
Emma Viglin, thank you for joining us on Higher Learning.
- [93:09]
Rachel
Long time coming back. Thank you so much.
- [93:11]
Emma Viglund
Thank you both.
- [93:11]
Rachel
Yeah.
- [93:12]
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- [93:24]
Rachel
It's always terrible.
- [93:25]
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- [94:10]
Van Lathan
All right. You like Emma?
- [94:13]
Rachel
Emma was great. I feel like that was a very long awaited interview and I'm happy that we were able to make it happen. I just hate that I wasn't there.
- [94:22]
Van Lathan
Yeah, you're in orlando@color.com. all right.
- [94:28]
Rachel
Listening for the people.
- [94:29]
Van Lathan
That's why I'm fucking with it. All right.
- [94:32]
Donnie
Pat McAfee, former NFL punter, had the President on his show recently. He was airing a Veterans Day special from the Marine Corps at Recruit Depot in Parris Island, South Carolina. And as Trump appeared on the show, this is what he had to say.
- [94:47]
G
To start it off live from Parris island to say. Ladies and gentlemen, joining us now for the first time ever, the 45th and 47th President of the United States of America, Donald J. Trump.
- [94:59]
Donnie
Yeah.
- [95:02]
G
Mr. President.
- [95:04]
Donald Trump
Hello, Pat. Hi, Pat.
- [95:07]
G
So most people would think with our show that this would be an impressionist of the president because no president would actually join us. But on this Veterans Day, we want to say, Mr. President, thank you so much for joining us.
- [95:17]
Donald Trump
Well, thank you. And I'm only joining you because I hear you say such nice things about me from your very large audience. I have always heard you've said such nice things. So when people say nice about me, I join. When they don't say nice about me, I take a pass. You know, we have $17 trillion plus being invested, invested on our country. That's many times more than any country has ever had. We don't want to be wasting time. So they tried to basically renegotiate the great big beautiful deal.
- [95:44]
Van Lathan
They didn't.
- [95:44]
Donald Trump
They weren't able to get it. And now they said, let's close up our country and we'll see if we can get it. But again, getting it for people that came. Came into our country illegally, from prisons, from gangs, from. From mental institutions, from, you know, places, places that you don't want, and giving them one and a half.
- [96:03]
Donnie
Think of it.
- [96:04]
Donald Trump
One and a half trillion dollars in medical costs and things. You just can't do this. You can't do it, and it ruins it for everybody else. So they were not successful in renegotiation, and it looks like it's going to be opened up. But you're right, it's. The House has to vote. And then, of course, I have to sign it.
- [96:21]
G
Okay. So once again, I don't know your guys's world. I assume it's everything you just said. There will have some people very pissed about it. And then obviously, the rest of the world, United States of America, will be very excited that the government is back open. So I think that deserves a big.
- [96:38]
Van Lathan
Okay. So, obviously, people are very upset about that and about that interaction and about political things that the President would say and spreading just unchallenged, really, programming people, sportswashing himself, which he did not only on McAfee's show, but on an appearance that he did on Fox with NFL broadcasts. A lot of people are gonna say, hey, this is sports washing. This is taking the president and putting him in a place where he is unchallenged to spew his rhetoric and get it all out there. Pat McAfee responded to some of the criticism. It's long, but, Donny, we're going to play it right now.
- [97:20]
G
Obviously, we had the incredible honor of being down on Parris island for Veterans Day as all four of the main league's commissioners dropped a note to the veterans, letting them know how much we appreciate them. UFC President Dana White sent a message of appreciation and gratitude to our America's heroes. We also had the Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Doug Collins, who sent a message to the young vets out there. And we also had the. The Commander in Chief on the show live. I believe it's the second time that a sitting president has been live on an ESPN show. The last one was from a Democratic political party. This one obviously representing, I guess, the Republican political party, but in my eyes, he's the leader of the military. And we were celebrating the hell out of Veterans Day. Now, there are people who are certainly not the most happy that that happened, but what I would like to say, every veteran military person not so and thankful that we spotlighted the heroes of America who walk amongst us, who are willing to sign a line and go for the United States of America as opposed to anything else. So if you're against what happened yesterday, I'd like to say you hate the troops and you should go ahead and swallow that, and you can take that to where you want to go. And any president, any. Any president, okay. Willing to come on our Veterans Day celebration Spotlight show, Commander in Chief, head of military, we would be very open to. So we would like to let any president know going forward that if we were allotted the opportunity to go to Parris island for the first time ever and have a live show in front of actual Marines while they're doing their thing. And if we're going to celebrate Veterans Day and we're going to have all four of the commissioners, the heads of every single league in the United States of America, basically. And also have the president of the UFC global thing come on. And the Sergeant Major of the Marines, if.
- [99:01]
Emma Viglund
Yep.
- [99:01]
G
Future presidents, you always be welcome.
- [99:04]
Van Lathan
Boom. Also was missed.
- [99:05]
G
I did reach out to President Obama's team.
- [99:07]
Van Lathan
Okay.
- [99:08]
G
President Obama's talked to multiple people in President Obama's team. Wasn't able to work because of the quick turnaround. We started this thing on Monday because there was a lot of conversations late last week about this show getting not gonna be allowed. There were some people in the government, obviously. I found out about this very late that said, wait, he's gonna be allowed to be on Paradise Island? We're in the middle of a government shutdown. There's no way. Is any other show allowed on any.
- [99:29]
Van Lathan
Is any other show allowed? No.
- [99:31]
G
Well, why the hell is this guy allowed? So end of last week, there was a lot of doubt, you know, and I completely understood the doubt. I thought it was crazy that it was even going to potentially be happening. Anyways, so once we got the clear and the go ahead and the stage was built on Sunday on Parris island in front of that beautiful Iwo Jima statue, it was an incredible thing. As soon as I found out that it was real, then I started piecing the show together because I had no idea if I was just going to be wasting my time doing it before then. So everybody that responded within 12 hour period, I am so incredibly grateful for, and we are so lucky that we got a chance to spotlight the greats who walk among us. And we appreciate the hell out of the Marines for the hospitality. And you guys are the greatest. What a day yesterday.
- [100:10]
Van Lathan
Oh, yeah.
- [100:11]
G
What a day yesterday. Got a lot of people saying mean stuff to me.
- [100:14]
Van Lathan
Got a lot of people saying mean stuff to me.
- [100:16]
G
Yep. Got a lot of people that don't know what a football looks like, tell me they're never watching my show again. And I would like to let you know.
- [100:23]
Van Lathan
Good.
- [100:23]
G
Fuck you. Let's move on.
- [100:25]
Van Lathan
What do you think? Because I have many thoughts.
- [100:29]
Rachel
Okay. Well, I think it's obvious to most people who are listening that putting him on is a choice right now. And I know that Pat said, hey, we asked Barack Obama to come on, but scheduling issues didn't allow it. He said that he had President Trump on because it's Veterans Day and he was doing this show in front of a crowd of veterans. Putting Donald Trump on right now is a choice. It is one thing to have a conversation with a political figure or the President of the United States, and it addresses maybe culture and policy and how that intersects with sports. But it's a totally different thing to put the President of the United States on with where we are right now in our country. We are. We just. He just signed for the government shutdown to end, but we can go down, and we talked about it on this podcast as to why the government shutdown even came to be, to who it is impacting, to who is losing their benefits, to what has happened all of 2025 and how that has impacted a certain group of people and to what's to come. We don't even know what healthcare will be in 2026 right now, because there is allegedly a vote that is going to happen in December. What we know is what Donald Trump is doing is detrimental to so many people. And the crazy thing is including veterans. But Pat McAfee doesn't know that, because Pat McAfee has washed his hands of it and said he is not one who really knows what's going on in that world. Well, if you don't know what's going on in that world, why would you bring the president of the United States on? I'll tell you what Pat McAfee does. Now, you might not know the ins and outs of policy. You might not know the inner workings of what's happening with Congress or the Supreme Court or even the executive branch. But what you do know is Donald Trump is divisive. You know, that doesn't take much for you to know that. So having him on, I go back to my original statement, is a choice. And ESPN has had a history recently, even more so in the last 10 years, about sports and politics, and they have a very strict policy. And that policy is that if you're going to talk about politics, it has to be tied to sports. So then I asked the question, how in the world does what Pat McAfee did, who seems to go rogue a lot, who seems to march to the own beat of his drum, who seems to be able to do things the way that he wants to without any sort of consequence at all, how is it that he is allowed to have President Trump on, who then goes on a whole rant and starts spewing rhetoric that is full of mis and disinformation? How is it that he's allowed to do that? The reason that ESPN has this policy in place is because it does not want to align itself with particular rhetoric. Right. We've seen that happen, particularly with black journalists that have been a part of ESPN and even white, because I could give an example with Dan Lebatar, but when Pat McAfee is allowed to do it, it's okay. And so I think espn, and they're probably not going to reprimand him in any way, but this should be an opportunity to where they have some sort of decision on what Pat McAfee did, because you're opening up the door. If Trump is allowed to go on a platform on espn, on somebody's show, and to spew out rhetoric that is combative, that is divisive, that is wrong, then somebody should be able to let Bernie Sanders on their show to come and talk about the government shutdown to come and talk about healthcare. Somebody should allow Gavin Newsom to come on an ESPN show and talk about redistricting and what he wants to do with the country and talk about what Trump is trying to do is trying to control the vote because they don't have the majority vote when it comes to what's happening in this country. And if Pat McAfee wants to fall on, hey, I'm just honoring veterans, then you need to be well versed in the policies that Trump has implemented in 2025 and how they have directly impacted veterans. Back in April or June or May, sometime around that time, There were over 100 doctors who practiced at the U.S. department of Veterans affairs who signed a mass letter and were protected under the Whistleblowers act that talked about the concerns from the Trump administration and their policies and how they negatively affected the lives of veterans, how they were short staffed at hospitals and how they weren't able to provide the services that they have been in the past because of staff cuts, particularly from what Doge was doing under the Trump administration. So if we want to hide under everything that we're doing because we love veterans, you actually are bringing somebody on who has directly harmed veterans. And so to do that on Veterans Day is even more of a travesty in all of this. And that's what happens.
- [105:37]
Van Lathan
I. Well said. I actually don't have a problem with him having President Trump on.
- [105:41]
Rachel
Okay.
- [105:43]
Van Lathan
I have a problem with the response, both responses. And the response is what's wrong with America? Our complete inability and unwillingness to hold power to account. That's in whatever we could talk about. That's in sports, that's in society, that's in business, that's in politics, that's in entertainment. We just want to be fans. We want to smile as the powerful people do what they do. And we wanna hope that their sunlight sometimes or in some way shines on us. We don't wanna ruffle, we don't wanna challenge. We just want to bask in their glow. If Trump wanted to come on there and say a word to the troops, I get it. They used to do something every year on ESPN where Obama would do his Sweet 16 bracket or whatever doing stuff like that with the president. I get it. I saw a video.
- [106:37]
Rachel
It's sports.
- [106:37]
Van Lathan
But let me finish. Like, I saw a video of Barack Obama showing up to an honor flight, right? I put this video on my social media when he shows up to the honor flight. These are a lot of older veterans, really old Guys, and they see the president and they are wild to see Barack Obama. They are wild to see him. Right. And that tells me that there is something about the veterans, a lot of veterans, not all veterans, of course, there's racism and all kinds of stuff in the military, but there's something about the veterans that they see the president, which is the living embodiment of American freedom to them, their commander in chief. And it's exciting. That's the guy that pins the Congressional Medal of Honor on your chest. That's the guy that comes to visit you when you've been dismembered by an IED in a war that you should have never had to fight in the first place. I get it. That that image and that video of Barack Obama talking to those veterans, some of which I'm sure did not vote for him, was very meaningful to me. But to your point, that's not what Trump did, and that's not what Trump ever does. Trump takes every moment to make it about himself. Every single time you see Donald Trump, he's going to make it about himself. He's going to be aggrieved, he is going to be vengeful, and he's going to take whatever platform you have and use it to tell people while his power grabbing and his consolidation and his perversion of American rule of law is completely justified. And that's what he did with Pat. And Pat was unwilling and incapable to, in that situation, have that conversation with Donald Trump. And that's our problem. The bigger problem is what came after. You want to have the president on to honor the troops. No issue kidnapping people, starving them, shredding the Constitution, the lack of due process, killing people in Venezuela, all of that. And then saying, just trust me, I'm the man. I have a problem with that. I have a problem with any of that stuff being lent credence. And there being someone who is too stupid or too cowardly to say, hey, guess what? That is either not right, or having a voice somewhere that could provide some pushback to the President because then what he says becomes law. We're talking about a guy right now who is seemingly covering up the deeds of pedophile ring, right?
- [109:25]
Rachel
Yeah.
- [109:26]
Van Lathan
Now, if President Trump comes on your show and he starts spouting off all of this stuff, my response would be, well, the government's reopened now. Now we can get a vote on something that people really care about, which is the Epstein file. You do a little politics, I'll do a little politics. But that's not what Pat McAfee did. He did not listen to any of the voices that are saying, hey, we're in a really desperate time. We're at a time right now where people's lives are under direct attack. He said, fuck you guys. That's what Pat McAfee said. He said, fuck you. And you know my motto. If it's fuck me, it's fuck you. You are a grown man. You are a man with a massive platform that is responsible for the messaging on your platform. You powerful Pat McAfee media guy, like to have fun, cool, all of that stuff. You're responsible if the President uses your platform, not to talk to the veterans, but to spread a bunch of propaganda about the shutdown and once again, endanger and minimize undocumented people. So after we have the conversation and Pat McAfee. Pat McAfee says, Fuck you. I take that almost more personally than the decision to put Donald Trump on, because that's saying, not only did I do it, but I don't give a fuck. That's why we are where we are. We are where we are because there is a certain group, a certain cohort in America that just gets to have fun through it all, that just gets to smile through it all, that don't have to worry, that can drive over the freeway of people not getting their SNAP benefits, that can have security move, people that don't have to look at it, and they never have to give a fuck. And when you remind them of it, they can just look at you and be like, fuck you. That is not being in community. That is not being a part of this. That is actually saying, I'm too fucking important to give a fuck about what y' all people think. That part of it right there. If Pat McAfee goes, you know what? I didn't know the President was gonna say that. And in the moment, that's what he did. In the moment, he actually went, hey, I'm sure what you just said here is gonna piss people off. Now, let me get back to being a frat boy in a moment. That's what he said. So there was a quickening in his mind that told him, you know what? Some of that. Look at it. Look at the look on his face and his body language. Some of this. I don't know if some of this is right. I don't know what I'm supposed to do. But then after the critique comes down, the criticism comes down. Rather than engage with it, what he says is, all of you guys hate the troops. Fuck all of you guys. My nigga fuck you. And so to me, when I looked at this, I was like, ah, Pat got caught up. I'm really, when I say this, I'm really not tripping in any way, shape or form with somebody having the President on. It would just be inconsistent. They've had other presidents on. I am not in. I can't like until there is a different standard held to the President of the United States.
- [112:57]
Rachel
I hear you.
- [112:58]
Van Lathan
The President's been going to sports things. President's been going to all of this. If a network. Let me be clear with what I'm saying, okay. If a person or a network goes, this guy's too divisive and this is different, I get it and I agree. But if they don't do that, if they don't do that, if they don't, I would understand because they never really have before.
- [113:24]
Rachel
Okay, I just have to say this. I don't think Pat McAfee got permission from ESPN to have the President on. He just did.
- [113:32]
Van Lathan
It would have been, it would have been. You'd have to. Well, hold on. We should say, did you listen to the three minutes that he had?
- [113:37]
Rachel
How hard is it?
- [113:38]
Van Lathan
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Before we even get into this.
- [113:40]
Rachel
Did you listen to the three minutes? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [113:42]
Van Lathan
There's no way. He didn't have permission. They have to have permission to go.
- [113:45]
Rachel
To LS from the top.
- [113:47]
Van Lathan
There's no way. They're like, no, it was a phone call. I know, but they set the phone call up. There was no way that they had to have permission to go to Parris Island.
- [113:57]
Rachel
Yeah, him going there. I'm talking about having the President call in. He easily could have set that up through production. Where the top of espn, the top people who are running it have no idea that that happened easily. You don't think that we couldn't have somebody call in on this show and the people at the top of the ringer wouldn't have no idea.
- [114:21]
Van Lathan
You could. But if the President of the United States was going to.
- [114:27]
Rachel
So there's no security that needs to happen. This is Trump calling in. You see him call in on networks all the time. Morning Joe, Fox News. He just calls up the phone. This is so this isn't where they got a clear out space and make sure that this I 100% he believed he just did it. So that's that. But what I will say is that Pat McAfee is not dumb and I think that he thought he could control the conversation in the context of it is veterans Day and we are setting up veterans. I think the reaction that you got from him, facial expressions, the movements, was because he was fully aware that this is going off the hinges and this is becoming something more than I wanted it to become, and I cannot control it. That's what that was. He fully, in my opinion, understood exactly what was happening. And the reason that I have to say I totally understand your stance on if you have one president on, you have another, and you keep that same energy. We are in such different times right now that it does not take somebody who was politically involved or aware to understand what is at stake and what is at issue. The government just became open today, right?
- [115:43]
Emma Viglund
We are still.
- [115:44]
Rachel
We still have health care looming over us, hanging over us. There's so much that is happening, right? And people have lost benefits. We talk about the health care premiums going up. We don't talk enough about or we've moved on, and we should move on about the people losing their Medicaid and Medicare. What is at stake, at issue with President Trump is completely divisive. He is a polarizing and divisive figure. He's not just the president of the United States. He represents something so much more and so much deeper. And it doesn't take you being deeply involved to understand that. But I think what Pat McAfee was doing, that standard. But hold on, hold on.
- [116:24]
Van Lathan
That standard doesn't hold because that standard, like the right would have said that about. The right would have said that about Barack Obama.
- [116:30]
Rachel
The right would have said that. But I think this is more. Becoming more of a bipartisan issue. If you look at approval ratings, Trump is. The things that he is doing, people do not approve. It's not just becoming just left or right. People are feeling uncomfortable about what is happening because healthcare affects both sides. And so that's what I mean by that. But I truly think Pat McAfee thought he could control it and frame it in. This is about the veterans, and then it quickly went off the rails.
- [117:02]
Van Lathan
Okay? So I don't think that. I think Pat McAfee likes Donald Trump. So I don't think.
- [117:06]
Rachel
Well, that's obvious.
- [117:09]
Van Lathan
I think Pat McAfee likes Donald Trump. What I'm saying is this, once again, the way I look at this is if let's take the national anthem before a sports event or the national anthem before the National Football League games, right? If you're going to have the national anthem before the events, the players should be able to decide whether or not they sit or stand in anything. You should not be made to stand for the national anthem, you should be agreed. The decision is in having the national anthem before the event. Period. The question to me is whether or not we need to put our hands over our hearts and go through the national anthem before a baseball game. What does that have to do with it? What does pledging allegiance to the flag have to do with playing baseball? What does pledging allegiance to the flag have to do with playing football? What does pledge allegiance to the flag have to do with playing a basketball game? Now, if you're at the Olympics and you are representing your country, then you are endeavoring into an act of direct patriotism. So, hey, play your country shit. And all of that stuff. Stand on that. Put the medal on. I get it. But if it's the Knicks versus the Lakers, do we even need the national anthem before the sporting event? If we're going to play the national anthem, though, I get to decide whether or not I stand for it or whether or not I sit for it. That's America. My thing is this. If we are going to have political figures, and that's what the President is at baseball games, at events at that, if the President is gonna come out and wave and go on all of that stuff and do. I can't get mad for putting people. I can't get mad for people putting the President on. The only thing I can get mad at is how they comport themselves when the President is on their platform. I can't get mad for the President of the United States whose politics I don't agree with, being on a place where, if there's a President of the United States whose politics I do agree with being on there. I would just say keep political figures off of situations unless you want to have political discussions. Because inviting the President on to me means that he has to understand that he's coming on here to talk to the troops. The moment he gets into a political discussion, either you have to stop him and say, Mr. President, this is not about politics today. This is about the troops. Right? Which would be fair. Or you have to be capable of speaking back to him in political debate and discourse. A fine thing for Pat McAfee to be able to do would have been able to be like, hey, you know what, Mr. President, I don't want to have a political discussion on here. I don't want to get into politics on here. This is about the troops. Say hello to the troops. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Get them off the air. But to me, the response to this at the time is the thing that bothers Me more when I looked. I'm going to be honest with you. When I looked at Obama, I'm like, why is Obama doing this with 16? I always think, why is Obama doing this with 16?
- [120:37]
Rachel
Really?
- [120:38]
Van Lathan
Yeah. I don't like that. I don't like you guys. I understand why the president wants to do it, but all of that's politics. All of that is manufacturing consent. All of that is, look how much he loves basketball. I don't give a fuck about how much he loves basketball. I don't give a fuck about how much he loves sports. I don't give a fuck about how much you love nascar, ufc. You're an everyman, just like me. I don't give a fuck about you going to a place, picking up an ice cream cone. Oh, my God, y' all got the best ice cream cones. I don't give a fuck about none of that. I have a. What I care about is whether or not people are getting what they need. And I can realize and recognize when things are being done in order to manufacture my consent. Oh, he love hoops. He just like me. No, he's not just like me. He droned somebody this morning. I didn't. So if that is the way people are going to do their thing, then. Because I can guarantee you something right now, when the president was on, when Obama was on ESPN or whatever, if somebody would have asked him, Mr. President, how many times did you do, blah, blah, blah, Everyone would have been freaked out. Why are you talking about that? However, if Obama would have started into politics, I think it would have been incumbent upon the person that he is sitting across from to be like, this is not political discussion or engage into the political discussion. But the posture that McAfee took after this sure was, to me, the real contagion that exists right now. And that is, I don't have to talk to you about this. I don't have to care about what you care about. I don't have to give a fuck about what you give a fuck about. It's the president. It's my show. I'm Suck it. That, to me, is the biggest thing that I had a problem with as far as platforming Trump. He's the president.
- [122:34]
Rachel
Yeah, I agree with you. We just differ in the start of it. I feel like that mentality started from the moment you allowed him to come on, not from his response.
- [122:45]
Van Lathan
I agree. Insofar as you should, this is for anyone. If you bring President Trump on a cooking show right now and y' all want to talk about Thanksgiving, just Know that the President is going to be like, cost Thanksgiving way down. Way down. I love turkey cost way down. Why? Because we kick the illegal immigrants out of America 100%, which lowers the price of the things. And if you don't want that, or if you can't control that, or if you can't deal with that, then just acquiesce to the fact that you are giving the President a platform to spew his politics. And if it happens to you and you get blindsided by it or whatever, you're not savvy enough, just engage with the criticism in a way that doesn't belittle all of the people that are being fucked over right now. Because I don't have no problem with somebody fucking up, but I do have a problem with somebody saying, fuck me when I give you some tighten up, because that means we fighting. Cause if I go to you right now and I'd be like, hey, man, what you did was fucked up. And you go, nigga, fuck you. All right, well, fuck you. What's next? So that, to me, is the thing that I have a problem with. I feel what you're saying, though. You want to get to these tweets. You want to do tweets. Kayla Nicole, she had some tweets, Donnie.
- [124:11]
Donnie
She did. She apologized for these tweets. They resurfaced. Looks like they took place between 2010 and 2014. Just the gist of it. She used a bunch of.
- [124:21]
Rachel
I saw some from 2016.
- [124:23]
Van Lathan
Okay, there we go.
- [124:24]
Donnie
That timeline is expanded. Some homophobic slurs were used. She called Asian people rude as fuck and used other derogatory language while referring to people from Mexico and India. Just an example. We got a whole thread of these tweets. I don't know if we want to go through them, but her apology goes like this. She said, the woman I am today would never use those words or express those kinds of views. Over the years, I've seen firsthand how cruel and harmful online hate can be.
- [124:52]
Van Lathan
And I would never want to add.
- [124:53]
Donnie
To that world of pain in any form. I have since deleted those tweets and my ex account entirely because I refuse to keep that energy alive or contribute to a cycle of hate. I take full responsibility for what I posted, and I'm truly sorry to anyone that I may have hurt. My heart, values, and perspective are completely rooted in empathy, love, and respect for others. I can't change the past, but I will continue showing through my actions who I've become and what I stand for today.
- [125:21]
Van Lathan
Apology rating.
- [125:23]
Rachel
It's a beautifully written apology. I'll give it like a four. Here's the thing. One, I will never understand. This. I'll never understand. Well, you know, let me tell you why. You know, I'm of the belief that you got to keep the same energy. And I if this whatever way that you spew this rhetoric out that created an apology, you got to give it out the same way a story is disappearing in 24 hours. These tweets are from years ago that have lived on and on and on. I just feel like you have to match it with the same energy. I have always said that. So I have to keep the same energy with that. But it was beautifully written. Here's what I. What I just don't understand. And maybe because I didn't join Twitter Till 2017, Kayla Nicole is very tapped into what's going on. How have you not seen so many people get caught up, go down, get called out for their problematic tweets and not think, damn, I tweeted something like that, Damn, maybe I want to go back and erase this or take this back or even better, hold myself accountable for the problematic views that I have. How is it that this continues to keep happening to people when they know they put this information out there? I don't understand. How is it that you find yourself in this place? How is it that you go against one of the ships strongest armies out there? You can go out and put your social media videos out there and say, oh, I had a friend named Taylor. This is about her from back in the day. Oh, it wasn't about Taylor. I just love Halloween. I hate that. Like, I'm like, own it. I love the video she put out. Fucking own that shit. Own it. Be like, Toni Braxton is a legend. I wanted to honor her. I look good because she does. Kayla Nicole looks amazing. I feel good. I'm in a good place. And this is the message that I have. Don't then retract and be like, talk to people like they're dumb and be like, oh, I had a friend named Taylor back in the day. Oh, it wasn't about her. I would never take down a woman. Girl, yes, you did. And it was fine. And we loved it. I loved you embodying it. I thought it was like a power statement because let's not pretend that she didn't do that in her album about you. I thought it was like such a classy and slightly shady way to do it. I loved what you did. Now you're trying to retract it. I guess here's my point. In all of this, knowing that you're going against a Taylor Swift army, the Swifties, you know that they're going. They've been coming after you unfairly. I hate the way that she's been subjected to the hate from the Swifties just from dating a man that is now dating their beloved. It's not fair. It's not right. But why would you not say they're coming after me? They probably threatened me because I've dealt with the threats in another way of like, maybe I need to clean this up. How are we here? How are we here? And now that we are here, what you did was so wrong and so problematic to so many groups of people, to the queer community, to the Asian community, to the black community. You know, I saw people say, oh, no wonder you were down with Travis. They're like, yeah, like, some of these. Some of these. These beliefs. It's hard for me. And this is why my apology rating is so harsh, is it's hard for me to believe. Now all of a sudden, you want us to believe that you've changed? I've said this about other people. Is it that you changed or is that you've been caught? Help me separate the two. I'm asking, please, Kayla, Nicole, help me separate the two. Help me understand the difference of you getting caught versus you're a changed woman. You don't believe those things anymore because when you did your Dear Black Woman letter on social media, it was powerful. It's part of the reason we wanted you on higher learning. I thought it was a moment, and I thought it was so representative of the power and the beauty of a black woman. And then I read a tweet. Hold on. Let me read it. Let me get it right here. I read a tweet that says, I'm going to need black people to stop trying to pull the black card all the time. Which one is it?
- [130:08]
Van Lathan
Okay, so this is what I'll say.
- [130:11]
Rachel
Is it not fair for me to ask that?
- [130:13]
Van Lathan
It is fair.
- [130:14]
Rachel
Which one is it?
- [130:14]
Van Lathan
It is fair. All right, so this is the. This is what I'll say.
- [130:17]
Rachel
I was rooting for you.
- [130:18]
Van Lathan
This is what I'll say. No, you weren't. You don't really like her that much.
- [130:21]
Rachel
No, no, no, no. I don't like. No, no, no, don't do that. I don't like what she did in the interview. I really, really don't. We had. And I will say we had a fabulous interview with her that I thought shines such a beautiful light. On the person that she is. Truly. I'm mad at her. It's another we were rooting for you situation, because I feel like you are misunderstood and you are categorized in such a way that just defines you as somebody's ex girlfriend. You are so much more than that. And I was so happy to highlight that. And then you took that away from us. That's what I'm mad about. Truly.
- [130:57]
Van Lathan
I was pissed off about it too.
- [131:00]
Rachel
Yeah, I'm mad about that. It was like, truly, I wanted to shine light on a sister. I wanted to do that.
- [131:05]
Van Lathan
I am mad. It pissed me off in the moment. I am over it as I tend to get over things.
- [131:11]
Rachel
Yeah.
- [131:11]
Van Lathan
Okay. And so it also is like, when it comes to something like this, this is what I try to do. Number one, I try to contextualize everything. We've had conversations about the old tweets before. You guys know I'm not a fan. You know I'm not a fan. And holding people accountable or hostage for whatever the fuck they did X amount of years ago.
- [131:39]
Rachel
To what point?
- [131:40]
Van Lathan
What you mean to what point?
- [131:42]
Rachel
How, How. How many. What? At what age do you start holding people accountable?
- [131:46]
Van Lathan
You do hold them accountable. I didn't say accountable. I said hostage. Holding somebody. Like holding. Holding somebody accountable is saying, yo, look how fucked up all of this shit that you said was fair. Where you at on it? Holding someone hostage for something is saying, you are captive by this and you are not let go until we say that you are.
- [132:10]
Rachel
I agree with that.
- [132:11]
Van Lathan
Right. And so to me, that's. I just kind of. Whenever the wild shit was going on Twitter and everybody was waking up, F word, N word, all of that stuff, whenever Twitter was that I wasn't really. I know a lot of people who weren't a part of it. So it's difficult to explain to people. Now, some of these tweets and some of these tweets are all fucked up. Right? It's difficult to explain these tweets now. But the thing is, I don't know what you can do other than apologize.
- [132:41]
Rachel
No, you're right. You're right. And then it's up to the public, right?
- [132:44]
Van Lathan
And so then it's up to the public, and you never have to fuck with nobody that do this. Cause I tell you straight up right now, if this wasn't Kayla Nicole, if this was Keith Urban Nicole, or if this was Kenny Chesney Jr. I'd be looking at you real funny in the light. Like, I've looked at some of these other people, but I Do kind of just have an overall issue with the societal framework and phenomenon of. Let's go back to 2013 to see just how terrible a person you are right now. When that shit comes out, you gotta answer for it. You have to. You have to have conversations. And once again, this is how the, I guess, overly forgiving, soft hearted marshmallow van is. This is how I am. There is no explaining away these tweets. None. There is no explaining away fucking up. The only thing that you can do is do your best in the situation if you are truly who you say you are. Because here's the thing. It is easy to tell to me, or not easy to tell. It is is obvious to me when someone feels bad about something. When someone feels bad about something and they actually feel bad about it and they actually want to be once again in community with people that they've harmed. I feel like human beings, we can feel that when someone is embarrassed or when it's affected someone's career, that is different. Because when what you do. I'm talking about this with Grand Platinum. It's not that I want to kick Graham Platner in his nuts. It's just I want a holistic response from him in a way that lets me know it's okay to be in sympathical with him.
- [134:46]
Rachel
So what is this one?
- [134:48]
Van Lathan
This one right here?
- [134:50]
Rachel
Do you feel it or is she embarrassed?
- [134:53]
Van Lathan
I'm. So the initial response to this was to deactivate the Instagram, right. And so that to me, Twitter. Well, I think she deactivated her Instagram for a second.
- [135:06]
Rachel
Okay.
- [135:07]
Van Lathan
That to me, that tells me that they wanted to make sure that they got a response together. And this is not her decision. This is a day decision. Yeah. Cause I'm sure they wanted to get their response together. Two ways to look at it. One, you look at it. I want to craft a response that directly addresses what's going on.
- [135:32]
Donnie
Okay.
- [135:33]
Van Lathan
Or two, you. You want to craft a response that hits all of the notes so that people get off your ass. This probably will not be sufficiently dispelled until she does an interview on it. And I keep saying this, but can't.
- [135:49]
Rachel
Come here.
- [135:51]
Van Lathan
I keep saying this. See, I keep saying this, but everything in conversation, talk to somebody. This is how I was feeling. This is what I wasn't thinking. This is what I was thinking. This is how much it affects me to have people view me in this way. Being that I've been assailed by this group or I feel like my blackness of who I am has been Used as an insult. I felt like this person got at me, like, this is not me, blah, blah, blah. But you gotta talk about it. So, I mean, I can't give an apology rating. The only thing I can say is when somebody says they're sorry, I'm like, if it. If I. If I. When somebody apologizes, I'm normally over it, depending on what it is for. If you take a life or whatever, or something like that. But when someone says they're sorry, I'm never over it. Either things are back, cool, or you're so far out of my view that I don't give a fuck anymore.
- [136:51]
Rachel
You didn't really answer my question. My question was, is this because you said when people are. You can feel it, you know, is this an embarrassing thing? Or do you believe that she's really sorry?
- [137:02]
Van Lathan
No, no, no, I did answer your question. I said you don't really know that until you see the person talk. She needs to do an interview.
- [137:06]
Rachel
Okay.
- [137:07]
Van Lathan
Yeah. So I'm not.
- [137:09]
Rachel
It's not one of these things that I go to bed at night and I think about this. I'm not holding onto this by any kind of means.
- [137:14]
Van Lathan
You are.
- [137:14]
Emma Viglund
It's okay.
- [137:15]
Rachel
No, I'm not.
- [137:16]
Van Lathan
It's. It's okay. And you know how I know this?
- [137:20]
Rachel
Okay.
- [137:20]
Emma Viglund
Okay.
- [137:20]
Van Lathan
Because you give favorable apology ratings to people that you like and you fuck.
- [137:25]
Rachel
Over people that you. I gave her a 4, which is one of the highest I've given. And let me just say this. Let me use the words. Let me use the words.
- [137:32]
Van Lathan
And you gave her, like.
- [137:32]
Rachel
Let me use the words. I gave her a five, six or something. Let me use the words of the great Van Lathan. If it's fuck me, then it's fuck you.
- [137:41]
Van Lathan
Yeah.
- [137:42]
Rachel
And so that is what happened, in essence, with what we conducted a couple of years ago. That's 100% what happened. And I'm not holding onto it in a sense where I'm, like, gonna believe every single thing that comes out. Because, like I said, I was down for what she did. I thought that. I've literally complimented her multiple times in what I just said. There's no hate in that. But at the same time, I'm not gonna act like this person is my bestie and I'm down and I'm ride or die for them. No, I don't know that much about you. And from the little. I know you've shown me who you are, so I'm gonna be very honest about it. I'm not, like, attached in any kind of feelings in any kind of way, I'm with it.
- [138:21]
Van Lathan
I don't give.
- [138:22]
Rachel
You have a personal relationship. Y' all have known each other before.
- [138:26]
Van Lathan
I haven't spoken. Sister things. Sorry. One time. It's not that big of a deal. But. But. But this is. But it's not a big. When I say it's not big of a deal, it's like, there's no nothing in the air at all. But then.
- [138:36]
Rachel
But we're exactly where we were before. I didn't know you and I don't know you now.
- [138:43]
Van Lathan
But I will say this, though, and this is why I try to be. You know what? I'll tell people what this is really about so people know about me. Like, I have been. The reason why I'm a soft touch with people and stuff like that is because I know y'. All. And when I say y', all, I mean the people listening to this and the people out there in the Twitter sphere and the people. I know y', all. And let me tell you how I know y'. All. I was trained to incite you guys. I was trained to make you feel a certain way. I was trained to make you hiss at a certain celebrity. I was trained to make you go easy on a certain celebrity. I was trained in a way, hey, Van, take that headline and inject some conflict into it. Hey, Van, take that. I was trained in a way to get y' all going. And so I know that people are getting y' all going. People are getting you going. People are doing stuff to get you. People. That doesn't change the truth of what's in that. That doesn't change the protein. But I know that people are getting you going. And I know that on the other side of people getting you going, on the other side of people saying, hey, this is what to be mad about today are just people. Just people. Like, just people. People that did stupid things, people that did racist things, people that did fucked up things. I focus on systems because systems control people. Systems are the ones that make people think that things that they are doing are appropriate. Systems are the ones that, like, manufacture certain outcomes in people. So if you fuck up and you say sorry, particularly in something like this, I'm either like, oh, I apologize, or I don't give a fuck. Mostly. Mostly. Mostly. There are some times where. And let me specify one. If you've built a platform on hate, meaning you've made a lot of money, you've become famous, you've garnered all of this, you've used hate systemically to make Yourself a celebrity. But other than that, I don't know. I mean, it's just. We do the old tweet story a couple of times a year, and every time we do it, there is a reason that these tweets surfaced. Every time.
- [141:17]
Rachel
Yeah, every time.
- [141:19]
Van Lathan
Every time we do it, there is a reason that these tweets surface. And just, honestly, having been the reason or having been a part of the thing, I just think I got a soft spot for it. And it don't matter how many times we talk about it, right? I just think I got a soft spot.
- [141:33]
Rachel
I've been victim to it. When I went through that Chris Harrison shit, people were literally like, I'm digging up all the shit on you. I'm gonna find stuff about you, and I'm gonna use it against you. Like, I've been a victim of it. I have Twitter. I understand nothing. Cause I didn't have Twitter till 2017.
- [141:53]
Van Lathan
You went on there like. You went on there like, fuck. Fuck all the boy. I'll tell y'.
- [141:57]
Emma Viglund
All, I didn't have it.
- [141:57]
Van Lathan
Some of the old. Some of it was some real wilding going on. Like, it was some real wilding going on. All right, before we get out of here, quick. Van Leighton. It's five. Only five, though. So I was talking about something earlier, and it got me thinking about an interesting. Van Leighton. Van Layton. It's. This is the top five dudes. Top five dudes that got their friends killed in movies.
- [142:27]
Rachel
Who's number one? I know who number. I know who number one is, but go ahead.
- [142:32]
Van Lathan
Okay. It's number five. We're starting with.
- [142:35]
Rachel
All right.
- [142:39]
Van Lathan
Anna Chomsky in My Girl. She got Thomas J. Killed. Wow.
- [142:46]
Rachel
I don't know if you can fully put that on her. He just loved her so much, he wanted to get the mood ring. She didn't tell him. She didn't tell him to get rid of.
- [142:53]
Van Lathan
Can I finish my list? Can I finish my list?
- [142:55]
Rachel
Okay.
- [142:57]
Van Lathan
She lost the ring. He went back looking for the ring. B. Stung him.
- [143:00]
Donnie
Her fault.
- [143:01]
Van Lathan
If she's more responsible with her things. Thomas J. Doesn't need to go get his glasses and the whole deal. It's not fair. It's not fair to him. Number four.
- [143:09]
Rachel
I want you to not make that a childhood movie. That's too devastating.
- [143:12]
Van Lathan
But number four, Mary from Sinners.
- [143:17]
Rachel
100%.
- [143:19]
Van Lathan
What the fuck make you think you can go out there and talk to the people? That was a very. I fuck with you, Mary. But that was a very 53% move for you to go outside you gonna talk to these people. And you gonna get the money. You gonna save all. And guess what happens now? Now Smoke ain't got no brother.
- [143:35]
G
Smoke, brother.
- [143:36]
Van Lathan
A vampire. I ain't seen the son. Cause of you. You went out there and you brought the vampire back into the situation. Married from sinners. Got the homies killed.
- [143:45]
Rachel
Everybody killed.
- [143:46]
Van Lathan
Number three. The Avengers.
- [143:49]
Rachel
And I'm lost.
- [143:51]
Van Lathan
Right? The Avengers. You got Tony Stark killed. You got Tony Stark killed. Tony Stark had survived the snap with his wife and his daughter. He was chilling by the lake, having lunch, making armor and cause Cap and cause Ant man and cause Natasha. Cause they all lost a bunch of people. They wanted to get him back into the fold. He figures out time travel, goes to fight Thanos. Guess what happened. Gets fucked over.
- [144:24]
Rachel
Boom.
- [144:25]
Van Lathan
Yeah, he had his life going the way that he wanted it. They fucked him over. The Avengers got Tony Stark killed. Number three on the list of dudes who got their homies killed. Number two. This guy could have easily been number one. This is one of the biggest examples of I got the homies killed in movie history. You might not know the name. Maybe Donnie will know the name. Donnie, do you know who Loseph Tarasov is? Don't.
- [144:55]
Donnie
Not without Google, no.
- [144:58]
Van Lathan
There you go. Loseph Tarasov is a guy who killed a man's dog and stole his car.
- [145:05]
Donnie
I know who this is.
- [145:08]
Van Lathan
Yeah, he killed a man's dog and stole his car. That man turned out to be John Wick, who then killed his father, his friends, his whole crew. And not only that, in four movies since this guy killed his dog and took his car, John wick has killed 439 people. 439 people. Because loseph Tarasov unleashed Baba Yaga on the entire world of assassins and the high table. You got the homies killed Loseph. Number one. And this is the toughest one is mine. Huh?
- [145:57]
Rachel
I'm wondering if it's the one I thought it was.
- [145:58]
Van Lathan
It's not. It's probably not the one you thought of. It's probably a movie you never saw because it came out back in the day. But I would like to know what yours is. Scotty, man.
- [146:09]
Rachel
Oh, that wasn't it.
- [146:11]
Van Lathan
Scotty got Pookie killed, man. I said this in. This is New Jack City. Pookie and Scotty. Pookie was addicted to crack. Crack addict. Scotty helps him get clean. And then Pookie says, yo, I want to go inside of the car. Scottie is like, nah, maybe you shouldn't Pookie. Then if you not gonna Believe in me. Then who gonna believe in me? Scottie wants to get Nino Brown. He puts Pookie back in the Carter. What happens? Pookie starts using again, gets killed. Scottie got him killed. And then Scottie says he got Pookie killed. And then Judd Nelson comes in and is like, nah, you didn't get Pookie killed. Whatever. Nah, Scotty, you got Pookie killed. And by the way, of all the ones that we have here, some of these are for the fate of the universe. Some of these are childhood. Some of these are vampires. But what. The one that hurts the most is that Pookie had to die for Nino to basically walk and get killed by a vigilante. Anyway, so the number one dude that got his homie killed for me in movie history, Scotty got Pookie killed, man. Damn.
- [147:20]
Rachel
Damn.
- [147:20]
Van Lathan
What you got, Rachel? What's your number one?
- [147:22]
Rachel
Well, now I'm doubting myself, but in Boyz N the Hood, I thought about it. Didn't Trey get in a fight that originally, or was Doughboy that got in a fight? It was Doughboy that got in a fight that originally got the gang members activated that where they went and decided to shoot at them. And they got Ricky killed.
- [147:47]
Van Lathan
This is the deal. I thought about it. That's not what happened. I went back and watched it, okay?
- [147:53]
Rachel
At least I'm on the right track.
- [147:55]
Van Lathan
They on Crenshaw, and they. They. They cruising or whatever. Everybody's outside. The dude walks past Ricky and bumps Ricky. And then Ricky turns around like, yo, what's the fuck's up with you? Ready to rock, Ready to fight? Right?
- [148:13]
Rachel
Exactly how they talk.
- [148:15]
Van Lathan
And he's like, what's up? What's up? Like, what's up, dawg? Right? And so Ricky gets upset, and then Doughboy flashes the heat. Doughboy is the one that comes over, yo, we got a problem here.
- [148:25]
Rachel
So I. But. But the scene.
- [148:27]
Van Lathan
But it was Rick's beef. It was Rick's beef from the beginning.
- [148:31]
Rachel
But that's why they had to come at them with guns. Cause Doughboy was like this. How we rolling?
- [148:36]
Van Lathan
It was Rick. Now, this is what I could have blamed Doughboy for.
- [148:39]
Rachel
That's why Doughboy felt so guilty.
- [148:41]
Van Lathan
This is what I could have blamed Doughboy for, is before Ricky leaves to go to the store with Trey, where they find him, Ricky and Doughboy have a fight.
- [148:53]
Rachel
Yeah.
- [148:54]
Van Lathan
So if Ricky leaves a little earlier to go to the store, maybe he avoids the guy and the Ferris or whatever Felix or whatever the niggas was that was looking for Maybe he avoids him. But it was just so happened that he got in a fight with Doughboy. Then they split up. But then at the same time, the dudes were patrolling around the hood. Cause they were looking for them. So whoever left and went, they probably was gonna try to get him.
- [149:25]
Rachel
You know, I really think that. And I think that that's one of the themes of the movie. It's the Doughboy of it all. If Doughboy had never shown that gun, it was like they were looking for all of them. They weren't just looking for Ricky, right? They see Ricky and it's like, oh, this the dude. This dude was obviously protecting this guy. This is a way to get at him and hurt him even more. It's Doughboy's fault.
- [149:47]
Van Lathan
I don't think it is.
- [149:48]
Rachel
And Doughboy felt that. That's why Doughboy would. That's why he went to. It's not because Ricky was his brother. It was because he felt guilty. He went to avenge.
- [149:57]
Van Lathan
Now, let me tell you something. Rick. Rick. The dude bumped Rick. And you know, Rick turned up. You know, Rick turned up. Rick.
- [150:07]
Rachel
He did turn up.
- [150:08]
Van Lathan
Rick turnt up. I mean, Rick could have been like, hey, man, you know, whatever. He would have kind of been going out like a hoe. But Rick turned up. He turned up, and then he got turned off. And let me tell you something else, Morris Chestnut. I hope that you're watching this the next time you're reading a script and they don't have you zagging the script. I just never seen nothing. I can't. Every time I watch it, I get.
- [150:31]
Rachel
When you run straight like that, straight.
- [150:33]
Van Lathan
Back, this nigga ran. This nigga was like Trent Richardson. Like, he had no vision and he could. Like, he had no vision and he had no wiggle. I don't think Rick was going to make it at sc. I'm just going to be honest with you. He wasn't going. He wasn't going to make it at SC if he could not cut at all.
- [150:51]
Rachel
Stop saying that. I could still hear that baby crying. I still hear that baby.
- [150:55]
Van Lathan
Why did they bring Ricky back home?
- [150:58]
Emma Viglund
Ricky back to the house?
- [151:00]
Van Lathan
I just looked at the movie. I watched the movie while I was doing this, and I'm like, what? Like, rest in peace, John Singleton. What a visionary, genius and a legend. Why did they bring Ricky back home and have blood all over that woman's.
- [151:16]
Rachel
Goddamn face Book, too? This was their hero. This was their way out. And they were so dumbfounded by what happened. They didn't know how to be. They didn't know how to act. It was like, let's get his body. Let's bring him on. Like mom's got. Like they just didn't know what to do. Nothing was logical. That's why Trey was like, give me the gun. I'mma go in the car with Doughboy looking for these guys. It's why, like, they. Nothing made sense after Ricky left. Nothing they was going to get to get back. That's why Trey had to leave and go to Morehouse. Like, nothing, right? But nothing may. Such a good movie.
- [151:53]
Van Lathan
Trey was going to Morehouse anyway. Man.
- [151:55]
Rachel
Let's put this up to the Thought Warriors. Did Doughboy get Ricky killed? I say yes. Vance says no.
- [152:04]
Van Lathan
I say yeah. Okay. And the thing for you. So we gonna make two different breakouts. One of the late 10, the late five, and then another one. Is. Was it Doughboy's fault? Because Doughboy turned up. Ricky turned up. Didn't the fight. Can you put it on Doughboy? Can you put it on Doughboy? That pause. Can you. Can you blame Doughboy for Ricky's death? Can you blame him? You say yes.
- [152:36]
Rachel
Yeah. You gave a second reason. So. Yeah.
- [152:39]
Van Lathan
Yeah. I just think even in the other time, I just think the guys was roaming around, they was waiting. And at the end, I just can't get over the non zigzagging, just even a stutter step.
- [152:50]
Rachel
The non zigzagging, the bringing the dead body back. Like, it's just. I feel like it was so traumatizing. I feel like we saw some of the. Never saw some of the actors again.
- [153:03]
Van Lathan
Damn, man, you. Rachel, you gotta chill, man. Rachel, you be what you gotta, man. Take your thinking caps off, but do not stop learning. I'm feeling. That's mean, man. Rachel, you gotta chill.
- [153:26]
Emma Viglund
Laughing because you're thinking about it now right now.
- [153:35]
Van Lathan
Sam.