Jasmine Crockett vs. James Talarico, Sherrone Moore Arrested, and Rachel Dating Drug Dealers

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Jasmine Crockett vs. James Talarico, Sherrone Moore Arrested, and Rachel Dating Drug Dealers

Date: December 12, 2025
Host: The Ringer

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay tackle the hottest topics in Black culture, politics, and sports. In this episode, they dive deep into:

• The Texas Senate primary showdown between Jasmine Crockett and James Talarico
• The firing and arrest of Michigan head football coach Sherrone Moore
• A candid, often hilarious debate about dating men with criminal pasts—specifically, whether Rachel could date a former drug dealer

The hosts also interview political reporter Mark Caputo about U.S. intervention in Venezuela and the political shifts in Miami, discuss the cultural politics of Black art in Hollywood, and riff on beauty standards, masculinity, and personal transparency.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. Beauty, Cosmetic Surgery, and Masculinity (00:07 – 09:28)

• Rachel’s Procedure Transparency: Rachel explains her recent fat transfer and minor cosmetic surgery, emphasizing her desire to be transparent and normalize talking about work she's had done.
  • “I didn’t want to change the way I look. I just wanted a little…” (03:39)
• Van’s Hair Transplant Journey: Van reciprocates with his own experiences seeking cosmetic changes for himself, aiming for a more youthful hairline—not to show off, but for personal satisfaction.
• Cultural Stigma and Standards: The pair discuss how Black women face different and often harsher scrutiny for cosmetic procedures, contrasting the cultural narratives around BBLs and other surgeries.
  • “Black women are held to a different standard when it comes to plastic surgery?” — Van (04:06)
  • “People are all trying to look the same. … Everyone wanted to look like this filter.” — Rachel (06:11)
• Safety & Transparency: Both agree that if people choose to have cosmetic surgery, it should be done safely and openly.

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2. Texas Senate Showdown: Jasmine Crockett vs. James Talarico (10:36 – 38:01)

Announcement & Messaging

• Jasmine Crockett’s Senate Run: After Colin Allred exits, Crockett enters the Texas Senate Democratic primary, facing off against James Talarico.
• Viral vs. Substantive Messaging: The hosts critique how social media shares a Trump-focused, “personality” driven Crockett ad instead of her full, nuanced 41-min announcement.
  • “People haven’t [talked about] her actual announcement … the focus seems to be that minute ad with Donald Trump’s voice.” — Rachel (12:10)
• Texas Democrat Identity: Rachel notes Crockett’s challenge will be proving she’s a Texan’s Democrat, not just a national star, echoing what happened with Beto O’Rourke.
  • “Sometimes that [national attention] seems so loud, you’re not necessarily seeing what’s happening in Texas.” — Rachel (14:52)

Candidates Respond

• James Talarico’s Video: Takes a positive, non-adversarial tone, welcoming Crockett and focusing on his grassroots, Texas-focused campaign.
  • “We have always maintained that we are pro our campaign, not anti anyone else's.” — Talarico (19:05)
• Jasmine Crockett’s Response: She loops back to experience, particularly her legal expertise and direct constituent services.
  • “At this moment in time, for sure, we need someone who knows those very real stories, because I get the phone calls … about people being concerned about their Social Security…” — Crockett (20:27)

Larger Democratic Party Debates

• Style vs. Substance: Van and Rachel debate whether Democrats are learning to center voters’ needs versus focusing on political personalities—using Crockett’s campaign as a case study.
  • “We don’t care about you guys. We care about us.” — Van (26:41)
• Viral Moments vs. Policy Credibility: While Crockett’s viral moments resisting MAGA and Trump get attention, Rachel argues her grassroots Texas work is less seen but more important.
• Primaries as Productive: Van insists primaries can clarify what kind of Democrats will lead, calling for more focus on substantive policy differences and strategy.
  • "The primary is where we get to pose questions...who is of the new school and who is the same thing dressed up in a different suit." — Van (36:19)

Israel/Progressivism Litmus Test

• Israel Policy as Litmus Test: Van asserts that a candidate’s position on Israel/Palestine is now a central test for true progressivism, criticizing centrism and "corporate capture" in Democratic politics.
  • "If, in fact, you view yourself as a progressive ... and you don’t have massive questions and concerns [on Gaza], I don’t think you’re an actual progressive." — Van (34:04)
• Nuance in Labels: Rachel questions branding Crockett a centrist based solely on Israel, saying Texas voters care more about local issues.

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3. ACA Subsidies, Health Care, and the Political Stakes (44:40 – 55:11)

• ACA Subsidies Set to Expire: The Senate deadlocks, likely allowing ACA subsidies to lapse, affecting millions' health care.
  • "This will cause pain...20 million people just losing health care...This will be painful." — Van (45:41)
• Blame and Accountability: Van and Rachel discuss whether Democrats can hang this pain on Republicans, as they’ve been unable to win the policy fight.
• Hopelessness Among Voters: The conversation notes that voters see Democrats as unable to protect them from right-wing policies—a source of apathy and disaffection.
  • "We know who the bad guys are, but we don’t have great good guys." — Van (49:08)
• Voter Mobilization Needed: The hosts stress the importance of winning elections and messaging directly to constituents’ needs.
  • “It is your job to win elections.” — Van (54:57)

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4. Sherrone Moore Firing and the Racial Politics of Black Football Coaches (57:21 – 75:01)

Sherrone Moore Scandal

• Fired Amid Scandal: Michigan head coach Sherrone Moore was abruptly fired after an inappropriate relationship with a staffer, with legal complications following.
• Alleged Details: Rumors swirl—Moore reportedly ordered Plan B via DoorDash, was exposed, denied the affair, and then crashed out after dismissal.
  • "He had a plan B doordashed to the school. That’s what they say." — Rachel (58:56)
• Mental Health & Masculinity: Discussion turns to the emotional and psychological implosion Moore experienced upon his firing.

Race and Coaching

• Theories on Success: Rachel shares that some Black coaches believe marrying white women helps career advancement—Van pushes back, checking stats.
• Broader Issue: The hosts reflect on Black male success, pitfalls, and public scrutiny, emphasizing that sexual and ethical failings are not strictly a Black issue but are often racialized in media narratives.

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5. Interview: Mark Caputo on Venezuela, Miami Politics, and U.S. Policy (76:09 – 109:12)

US-Venezuela Escalation

• US Seizes Oil Tanker: Caputo explains the Trump administration’s aggressive moves against Venezuela, aiming to pressure Maduro out of power.
  • “The Trump operation...had some unfinished business with Nicolas Maduro.” — Mark Caputo (77:25)
• Policy, Sanctions & Realpolitik: The panel discusses whether Maduro can outlast US pressure and whether American patience for intervention will fade before his regime does.
  • "Trump is built for doing the things he wants to do, and he doesn't care about the criticism." — Caputo (91:05)

Miami Mayoral Election

• Eileen Higgins Wins: Miami's first Anglo and first female Democratic mayor in decades triumphs on issues of affordability, corruption, and Trump opposition.
  • "Affordability is number one...South Florida is becoming very, very expensive." — Caputo (97:17)
• Cuban American Republican Loyalty: Caputo surmises that younger Cuban Americans’ loyalty may be shifting due to Trump-era immigration enforcement.
  • “The younger ones...there is just a great amount of displeasure over this.” — Caputo (107:11)

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6. Hollywood, Race, and 'Sinners': The Politics of Black Art (110:32 – 125:14)

• Van’s Rant on 'Sinners' Omission from Best-Of Lists:
  • Van expresses anger that the acclaimed film "Sinners"—a “culturally Black, unapologetic” movie—has not made year-end lists by Variety, Rolling Stone, etc., despite box office and critical success.
  • “There are reasons outside of the filmmaking, the acting, and the story. The movie is culturally Black, and it makes absolutely zero apology for it.” — Van (118:43)
• White Critical Gaze: Van describes how Black art is boxed into acceptable forms for white audiences (slavery, drugs, trauma)—when it’s too Black, critics ignore or undervalue it.
  • “If Sinners took place on a plantation, it would all be different...” — Van (117:01)
• Awards Season & Tokenism: Rachel questions if nominations/wins would change Van’s mind; he insists respect and inclusion must be genuine, not tokenistic.
  • "Forget about the Academy Awards...This stuff feels intentional." — Van (114:52)

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7. Rachel’s Dating Preferences and Drug Dealer Debate (129:44 – End)

• Can Rachel Date a Man with a Record?: Van playfully interrogates Rachel on what crimes would disqualify a man from romantic consideration—violence and fraud are out, but drug offenses are not deal-breakers.
  • “You could do a drug dealer. Half you. Wow.” — Van (131:42)
• Morality and Rehabilitation: Rachel stands by willingness to date someone who’s changed post-prison; Van makes clear he wouldn’t date anyone in the life.
  • “But if you’re out and you’re done and you’re rehabilitated, I’m not going to judge you…” — Rachel (137:09)
• Humorous Roleplay: Van spins elaborate scenarios about dating a former kingpin, the complexity of "cleaning" drug money, and family pressures, all leading to laughter and mock debate about romance and redemption.
• Listener Call to Action: Van jokingly proposes a "Rachel Pops a Balloon Ex-Con Challenge," inviting listeners with a criminal past who have rehabilitated to share their stories.

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MEMORABLE QUOTES & MOMENTS

• "We don’t care about you guys. We care about us.” — Van Lathan Jr. on campaign messaging (26:41)
• “Her biggest challenge: does she come across as a Texas Democrat rather than a national Democrat?” — Rachel Lindsay on Jasmine Crockett (14:52)
• “If you are another Cory Booker … I don’t really give a fuck about you.” — Van on centrist politicians (36:19)
• “I want Sinners and I demand respect.” — Van's passionate defense of Black art (123:00)
• “I could do a drug dealer.” — Rachel Lindsay, matter-of-factly (131:37)
• “Why did you bring me into this? Why didn’t you just do what you need to do, leave me out of it now I know.” — Rachel, on being asked to help "clean" money (137:19)

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TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• 00:07–09:28: Cosmetic surgery, aging, and Black beauty standards
• 10:36–38:01: Jasmine Crockett vs. James Talarico, campaign messaging, and Texas Democratic politics
• 44:40–55:11: ACA subsidies, health care policy, political blame, and voter disaffection
• 57:21–75:01: Sherrone Moore firing, Black masculinity in coaching, and systemic scrutiny
• 76:09–109:12: Interview with Mark Caputo: Venezuela sanctions, Miami’s blue shift, Cuban-American politics
• 110:32–125:14: Van rants about “Sinners” film snub and Hollywood racial politics
• 129:44–138:52: Rachel's dating preferences, playful debate about drug dealer boyfriends, and rehabilitation

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TONE & STYLE

The tone is candid, hilarious, no-holds-barred, and unfiltered—balancing deep intellectual engagement (on politics, policy, and culture) with intimate, conversational, and at times comedic moments. Both hosts are honest, introspective, and passionate, making Higher Learning a space for both cultural critique and laughter.

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Skip the ads, enjoy the discourse—this is Higher Learning at its best.

Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

Foreign.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on. It is Ivan Lathan Jr. And it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Have you recovered?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, let me put my glasses on.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, your shit is still not well.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I mean, the doctor posted it on his page now.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The doctor posted you?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I actually do. I told him he could. I'm gonna post it on my page. Cause people are asking me to talk about it more. I actually want him to come on the PODC.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Dr. Truesdale. Dr. Carl Truesdale. Fantastic work. So for those of you don't know, I've been wearing glasses like the last couple of episodes. I mean, you just got. Got a sneak peek to what it is. I had a lower. Well, a skin pinch under my eye for like I had like some saggy skin and I have hot like hollowing in my face because I. I mean, it's obviously genetics and a sign of aging, but when you also lose weight really fast. Like, I lost a lot of weight when in 2024 with the announcement of the divorce. And then I gained it back, but it didn't go back to my face. So for me, this was a me thing. I had a lot of hollowing and I wanted to just like make it look like when I wake up, I look. I look. I look like I took a long refreshing nap.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So I had like a little fat transfer. Take your own fat. Little fat transfer. Put in the cheeks and my smile lines a little bit under my eye as opposed to like filler. And had a little skin pinch for some saggy skin under my eye. So, you know, I'm what, like seven, eight, nine days post recovery?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Post, post surgery. Was it. Was it intense and painful in any way?

[Rachel Lindsay]

You know? What? Was what? The surgery? No, I mean, like my. My sutures are out. Like you can see them now. My sutures are out. Um, but pulling the fat, because it's lipo. Technically.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was not prepared for that. Yeah, because if you have a lot of muscle, you got a lot, then it hurts more.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So then.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But bring them on though. So then black doctor, Beverly Hills.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so he's a black doctor of Beverly Hills and he does the cosmetics.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Face, face, face.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But no bb.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Double board certified. No, that's. That's not my ministry. No judgment.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Are you. Would you be against the BBL for me?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't want it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

1. It's probably one of the most dangerous cosmetic surgeries you can have, and I'm scared about that. And the recovery is brutal. But also like, that's Just, I. Everybody has their issues, right? Like, somebody would look at me and be like, rachel, you didn't need to do a thing. A thing to yourself. Someone could say the same thing about you when you got your hair transplant. But you wanted it for you. I wanted this for me. I didn't want to change the way I look. I just wanted a little.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Why you bring up my shit? We talking about your shit?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, because I'm saying you did that for you. That was something you wanted.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What I did it for. You didn't even ask me. You assumed.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, we. We talked about this, but now you're.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Just saying, oh, Van. You did what?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Van, we talked about this. It was this last year.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We weren't even talking about the hair transplant. We were talking about it. I'm going back. I'm going back under the knife.

[Rachel Lindsay]

For what?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

More hair.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Wait, what do you mean?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We're gonna load up. Get a lot more. Get a lot more. That's what we gonna do, man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You know? You know, for you to do all of that, you wear a lot of hats. You really should show it off more.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Nah, it's not what I want. I just want. I.

[Narrator/Host]

You.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's not about necessarily. I just want to bring the hairline back. I don't want to show my hair off. I just want.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You know, you got us hyped up. You said you were getting a high top.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I might.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You were getting braids.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I just need more. I'm a loader. Get a lot more. Get a lot more. Uh, but you feel good. You feel good. You feel like it was good.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Recovery was easy, seamless, like, incredible team staff. I really want to have him on. I want to talk about it because I know a lot of people are going to have opinions, but I think. I don't know. I think that there can be a negative connotation with it because technically it is, I guess, plastic surgery, because I went under. But, yeah, I want to normalize that. What I don't want to be is the person people like, wow, Rachel. Like, you look like your skin's cleared up or you look refreshed. I want to tell you exactly what I did. I'm not going to hide it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Do you feel like black women are held to a different standard when it comes to plastic surgery? You feel like, so this is how stupid I am. I never knew. I don't so lotto, Right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So I assumed that Latto had had. Everybody's getting a little nip tuck done. Right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But I didn't know that I had never seen Latto before.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, you didn't see her when she was on that show? Well, she's a kid.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I didn't know anything about it. Know nothing about it. Like and so when I saw this video she put out and she talked about why she got plastic surgery and then when I saw the before and after, it's like crazy. It's like a big difference. But her body handles it so well that she looked like somebody that was basically born with the ass to me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She got a great, she got a great surgeon.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It happens. But I guess my thing is there's all of this talk about the BBL and who has it and who doesn't and who's going to get it and if you have to get it now I actually think that things are changing a little bit. I've said this before on the podcast, every once in a while I'll watch like these old video like MTV classic jams and then like you'll watch like vibrant thing or heavy D, black coffee, no sugar, no cream. And the diversity of female beauty that is in those videos from the time that I came up. You have thinner ladies, fuller breasted, you have smaller breasted hippie, you have long model types, you have shorter firecrackers, you got basketball booties, you got popcorn booties, you got so many different types of woman. And that's kind of like gone insofar as there's one standard and whereas that standard is like, it's you know, enticing. But everybody kind of looks the same now. Now. Yeah, but I do feel like maybe that was true of the big titted white woman as well. But maybe there was less criticism of it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't think that there's criticism. I, I think there's criticism of people all trying to look the same. And I don't think that that's just bbl. I think that's with nose jobs, I think it's with fillers and Botox. Like there's a certain look and aesthetic that people are trying to, to look like. I mean a few years ago plastic surgeons were telling were saying that girls were coming in saying that they wanted to look like this filter. It's like everybody wanted had a certain type of what they considered beauty and it all looked the same.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But I think there's a conversation about the BBL in a way that there wasn't a conversation about the getting the tits done. And I think I know why the BBL is a little different to me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, if I gave my opinion why it's because I see a lot of bad BBL jobs.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And like, you just complimented Lotto on hers. A lot of. Quite often. I don't want to say a lot, but quite often you do see people with bad bbls. Like, the legs don't match the. The booty. The booty cheeks. They might be like the hipstone. Like, it's just not proportion. And sometimes people get it out of control where a proportionate look is. What? Because I've seen great features, fantastic BBLs, mostly in Miami.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Look it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, a lot. No, they're. No, there's a lot like, oh, Miami. Because a lot of the best. There's a whole underground thing. Because I know somebody was working on this documentary that. And it didn't come out about how many people lose their life.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I've seen getting. Getting bbl.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Look, man, y'. All. Y' all beautiful, you know? Just hope y' all know that, but do whatever you want. I got a hair transplant.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Do it safely.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. Do it like, research. Yeah, do whatever you want. But y'. All. Y' all look good. And it's okay. It's okay to have some variety, right? You know, it's okay to have some variety. And beauty's different. You look different. Everybody can't look the same, you know, but fuck that. I needed my hairline back. I make no apologies.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And you shouldn't.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, I made no apologies. I might. I might go again. Nigga, do what? Oh, you know what I've been doing? I've been dealing with my foot fungus issue. I've been beautifying myself.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We were doing great, guys. What do you mean, foot Funkus?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So this. This foot right here is bigger than this foot.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So that makes the. The shoe tighter. It's a tighter fit. So I have my nails along here, been up. And I thought it was because the shoe was crunching on the feet. I thought that's what that was. But I asked the pedicure lady, and she said, you fungus.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, wait, and so your nails too long?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, she said that the. She said. She told me you fungus. And she said, you gotta. The fungus is what makes the nail up. And so I've been using the fungus stuff and the nails.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Were you not noticing a smell or a discoloration?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, there's a discoloration, but I thought it was because maybe of bruising of shoe. You know, you do sports, you box, you play basketball. I mean, I used to play basketball. I would be on the basketball court and every, you know, four or five weeks, all My. The toenails on this foot would just fall off.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, that used to happen to me when I played.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. So like, you know, so it would be not a thing, but it's a fungus thing. Taking care of it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank God.

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[Van Lathan Jr.]

Been wearing a lot.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, yeah.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

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[Narrator/Host]

Jasmine Crockett made the announcement that she's going to enter the Texas Senate race. This is after former Representative Colin Allred dropped his Senate bid, choosing to run for the House seat instead. Which clears the way for a two person race. Crockett versus friend of the podcast James Talarico. She had a press conference explaining her reason for running and just breaking it down. This is a little bit of what she had to say.

[Jasmine Crockett]

You see, a lot of people think that making decisions like this, you take them lightly. I'm here to tell you that I understand that there's a responsibility. I'm not reading from my script, so they about to be confused. There's a responsibility that lies with all of us, especially in this moment. There are a lot of people that said, you gotta stay in the House. We need our voice, we need you there. And I understand. But what we need is for me to have a bigger voice. What we need is not only a voice, but we need to make sure that we are going to stop all the hell that is raining down on all of our people.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So there were two different things that two different pieces of video that people are looking at from the announcement that Congresswoman Crockett made. One is a full 41 minute speech that I would encourage people to go listen to. And another one is a shorter video, which is just a video of her face and then all the things that Donald Trump has said about her.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I feel like I haven't seen people talking about her actual announcement video.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

People haven't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

People that I follow, half that are tapped in, I cover. I follow people that are in the news. And if you're going to be someone who's giving out nutritious news and you're gonna. Given context, then you would say there wasn't just a social media video that was made. Jasmine Crockett did a full 41 minute speech where she talked about her past, her present, and what she feels like her future is. Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I guess what I'm saying is when I say it's not being talked about, I'm not talking about necessarily what's being reported in an article or maybe discussed at a news table. It's what's making the rounds really, on what the conversation seems to be between. I don't know, with group chats or social media post or whatever it may be. The focus seems to be centered around that minute ad with her, just her in the solo shot with Donald Trump's voice.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I feel like that's unfair.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, it's 100% unfair. But then I would say, is it unfair or is it a problem with messaging?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Her messaging.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Her messaging.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Which is something we have talked about too much when it comes to the Democrats, and particularly there was a social media post that was going around that compared her announcement video versus to James Talarico. So also we should say that now that she's thrown her name in the hat and she is going to be running in the primary against James Talarico, who we've had on this podcast, who.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We like and we like Jasmine, who, who. You're a Texan.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm a Texan. Can't vote there anymore.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Can't vote there anymore. But from your knowledge of the inner workings of Texas, Texas Democrats. Tex, Tex, Tex, Texas. Texas stuff. Where are you right now? Talarico is a rising star. He's someone that has had. He's tried to position himself in a really deliberate way. Now he is going to be in a precarious political situation because Jasmine Crockett is going to also have cultural allegiances that James Talarico Will not have he looked like a really good option in Texas for a lot of people nationally. I don't know what's going on in Texas, but now you have someone who for a lot of people represents the strength of black women, represents resistance to Donald Trump, represents a firebrand that actually is pushing back against the Republican establishment and all of that cultural might up against someone who people really looked at as an evolution of the Texas Democrat.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So all that you're saying is true. It's right. I think that the biggest thing that's gonna happen is obviously Jasmine Crockett's biggest congresswoman. Jasmine Crockett's biggest, biggest asset is her national presence, her ability to communicate in an effective way and to really energize people. But I think her biggest challenge is going to come across is going to be whether or not she comes across as a Texas Democrat rather than a national Democrat. And I think that's the difference. It reminds me a little bit when Beto challenged Ted CRUZ Back in 2018, there was big excitement, huge push nationally. National figures got public figures got involved with the race. And sometimes that seems is so loud, you don't, you're not necessarily seeing what's happening in Texas now. He was, I think, 3% behind Ted Cruz in that race, like the closest a Democrat has been in a really, really long time. He put up the biggest challenge. Ted Cruz almost lost that race. And so I, my fear is, is that when you do have this national ID and presence, is that, or do people look that, look at that as a negative and don't see, say, what are you going to do for us here in Texas? Because you are representing this state on a national level, but you are still a representative of Texas. And I think that's going to be the fight between, or one of the biggest fights between Jasmine and James is who is going to represent as a Texas Democrat. And then I look at, that's why I go back to the messaging, because you look at Jasmine with the video that they were putting up against James's video they were putting up. And James's video speaks more to being a Texan and being a Democrat and what I can do for you than Jasmine's does just in that video. But if you listen to her, in my opinion, 40 minute speech, she tells a story that does not always get told when it comes to her on a national or viral level. When Jasmine Crockett goes viral, she goes viral for, you know, standing up to maga, standing up to Republicans, standing up to Trump for being quick and witty and having these catchy phrases for not being scared, not being scared by the establishment. That is the Republican base. By any means. She will go toe to toe with you. But the other stuff doesn't go as viral. And when she was telling her speech, she talked about being a lawyer, fighting for justice. Why she decided to run as a local Texas representative because she was frustrated with the policies and the laws were impacting Texans. She talks about the people who were a part of her grassroots marketing. Very similar to James Talarico in the sense that she was out moneyed. I'll say five to one. She says she was, said it was the moms. It was the people who wanted to focus on their individual rights, their children, their health care, their economy, the social justice, criminal, all of that, at which, you know, the criminal side. She was a public defender for those who don't know in Texas. She talked about that. She spoke to that. That's the stuff that's not getting attention. She spoke to what Texans want, what they need, and what she's done as an attorney, as a public defender, as a local representative on the national level, and what she would do as senator. And she talks about, you know, she's, she's, she's favorable to James Talarico when she's talked on other platforms, but she says what different. One of the main things that differentiates her is her experience. And when she went to Congress on a national level, she realized that she was in over her head. And her experience will help her represent Texas in the best way and a way that James cannot. That's stuff that is not going viral.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Let's, let's hear each candidate on the other person. Talarico released a video in response to Jasmine Crockett's announcement. Donnie, play that.

[James Talarico]

Hey, Team Talarico. I just wanted to hop on here and record a quick video for y'.

[Rachel Lindsay]

All.

[James Talarico]

Lots of news in the race today. On behalf of all of us, I want to welcome Congresswoman Crockett into the Democratic primary race. I chose to run for the honor of being your next U.S. senator because working people deserve someone who knows how to fight and knows how to win in Washington. We always knew this was going to be hard. And I am so proud of what we've built so far. We've shattered grassroots fundraising numbers. We've built an infrastructure of 10,000 volunteers, just like all of you who are already putting in the work to win in November. I am so proud of the community and the culture we've built here at Team Talarico. We have always maintained that we are pro our campaign, not anti anyone else's. We will make the case for why we are best positioned to win this race in November and take power back for working people. But we will always treat Congresswoman Crockett with the utmost respect. She is my colleague, and she is a leader in our state. She deserves nothing less. So now is the time. Please sign up to phone, bank, send texts, learn how to host block walks. Let's go win this thing. Thank y'.

[Mark Caputo]

All.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Let's hear Jasmine on James.

[Mark Caputo]

Now, what do you say to a.

[Narrator/Host]

Texas voter who says, I've got a tough choice? I got two rising stars in front of me. I got Talarico and I got Jasmine Crockett. Why am I supposed to support Jasmine Crockett?

[James Talarico]

Yeah.

[Jasmine Crockett]

So I think this just comes down to experience. Right now. We know that we're living in an unprecedented time. We're living in a time in which I don't think anyone saw our foundation being broken the way that it's been broken. So, number one, I think that my legal training is an advantage in this moment, because when we're starting to talk about almost anything that we can talk about that people are very frustrated about, whether it's the overreach on the tariffs, whether we're talking about the impoundment of congressional funds, to the extent that we know that hundreds of thousands of people have lost their lives because they decided to illegally impound USAID funds, or whether we're talking about the fact that ICE has decided that there is no due process for anyone, including US Citizens. Right. They have decided that if we look at you and if you talk a certain way, then that's enough for us to take you into custody. And so we have a record number of not only deaths because they have been violating people's constitutional rights and using unwarranted force on people, but we also have an unprecedented amount of US Citizens that have been arrested. I think at this moment in time, for sure, we not only need someone who knows those very real stories, because I get the phone calls. I'm the one that gets the phone calls about people being concerned about their Social Security. I'm the one that gets the phone calls about whether or not their Medicaid or Medicare is going to go through. And so you want someone, at least in this moment, that has that experience. Obviously, I've worked on the state level as well, so I understand the differences between the two. And I can tell you that it was completely different coming to the federal level.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So she Was talking to Aaron Parnas there. So you kind of see the way this is going to shake up. It's going to shake up as how shake out, should I say? It's going to shake out as experience and battle tested political might against someone who is bright eyed, running as an uncharacteristic Texas Democrat. Somebody that's been on Joe Rogan, whose brand of Christian populism, if you will, seems to be to a lot of people really palatable and fertile for a political movement in a place like Texas. So it's almost against, it's almost culture and resistance against fresh, new, unique ideas. I mean, and by the way, when I say that, I'm talking about cult of personality here because in terms of what James Talarico is putting out there and who he is, I don't know how much political daylight there is between these two candidates. I'm talking about the way this race will be perceived. Yeah, right. The, the fighter against the dreamer is kind of the way it looks.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, James Talarico, the first House seat, Texas House seat that he ran for, he, he flipped that, he flipped it to blue. So, you know, he's, that's a, that's I guess an argument towards putting them up against each other. Whereas Jasmine, yes, she was the underdog when she ran for a textile seat, but it was, you know, in a blue district already.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I will say that as I am not a fan of seeing them go up against each other and I'm not one to tell somebody that they can and cannot run. That's obviously not my place. These are two bright young stars in the Democratic Party and that's why I say I don't like seeing them go against each other. I think that one of the biggest lessons we learned as, as Democrats in 2024 is that one is messaging and the other is strategy. And I think that it's important to have a united front and a message that resonates with the voters and them going up against each other. I'm just, I, when she announced, obviously, you know, I support, I like Jasmine, what she's doing, but when she announced, I was like, oh, couldn't there have been a way we could have, somebody could have attacked this by running for your seat? I mean, she, I should say also that she spoke with James Talarico and Colin Allred before she announced. That's been reported from both of their campaigns. Colin dropped out and now he's running for a congressional House seat. Pastor Freddie Haynes, who's an activist who at one time Took over the rainbow coalition. He is running for Jasmine's old seat and now Jasmine's running for Senate. But I'm like, you know, you got Abbott up for governor in 2026. You've got this seat. You've got House seats. I just am like, couldn't. Rather than go against. I just wish there was like an. A strategy or an angle where we could take each bright young star and have them, you know, like, attack it at different ways. But, you know, this is where we are. I will just say it's. I mean, I think people are kind of like, why maybe is. Are we talking about it, about Texas?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Tell me why and I'll tell you why.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I love this because to me, their personalities and their cult of personalities and how they. The image that they cut on television, I'm bored of it. I don't care. I don't care about what space you hold in national media or whether or not you look like. I don't care about any of that. I care about the protein of the politics at this particular point. There is a vision and a version of left politics that I think works, that I think centers people. And there is a vision and a version of left politics that I think is more of the same. And we are going to get to litigate not only these two candidates, but how much the Democratic Party has learned the lessons that they have learned in terms of how you communicate with people. I'll be honest, Jasmine Crockett has not had a sparkling entry into the Senate race.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Not to me in the last few days.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

In the last few days it hasn't been. Then the reason why is number one.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's shocking, though.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Of course not. The reason why is number one. The 41 minute speech that I watched. Yeah, I watched a very sincere candidate talk about how she got into politics, why she's here and where she hopes to go. It's not perfect speech. It's not. We don't have a bunch of perfect orators out there. We expect everybody to be Obama. It's not the thing. Right. But it was sincere and it allowed you to kind of get closer to Congresswoman Crockett. The shorter video that is being passed around. It is being passed around for two reasons to me. One is being passed around because Jasmine Crockett is a national political figure of note and her getting into a race is newsworthy and noteworthy. The second reason is because it is one of the more tone deaf things I've seen a politician do in a very long time. Nobody cares. And this is not just for Congresswoman Crockett. This is for all of you. We don't care about you guys. We care about us. We care about people. We care about what people need. We care about how things are going to move in their life. So when you are getting into a race, obviously we want to have faith in you and we want to caucus with you and we want to believe in you. But what we want to believe in more than anything is that you care about in your job as a public servant delivering for people, that people are at the center of what it is that you're talking about, that you have a plan for people, that you see what is wrong with society as governed by you, some of this and that you want to change it. And to me, like having what Donald Trump says in the background as we are honed in and you know, close up, extreme close up of your face, that doesn't work. That doesn't work for me. I don't want to hear about who the president doesn't like or who wants to fight with the president. I don't want to hear about that. I don't want to hear about that. What I want to hear about are the things that are affecting the structural things are affecting people everywhere and how we are going to change them. She could have made a whole. By the way we realized that we forgot to ask Governor Moore about AI data centers. We're going to have him back. I told them that we're going to have a conversation about AI data centers with Governor Moore. But she could have done a whole thing about that. What's an issue in Texas that Jasmine Crockett is like drilled down on that is plaguing people not just there but nationwide that she has a fix for.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, so I want to, I want to talk about that because of something that she said about not attracting certain voters. But I agree with you. I wasn't a fan of the message that rolled out. Jasmine Crockett was on Roland Martin show and one of the panelists asked her about her anti looking like your messaging is about anti Trump. And it was a really good question and Jasmine's answer was really good. I would say that that's the message that needs to go out there because that speaks to individual issues. Texas has a lot of one issue voters. That's important. She, Jasmine was talking about farmers, health care. That's the kind of stuff that people need to hear because that's what they're struggling with in their everyday lives. That's what I mean about your, your, your challenge is going to be looking like a national Democrat versus a Texas Democrat to win the Texas vote. That is super important because the truth is, is that a Texas Democrat has not won a statewide election since 1994 with Ann Richards. And so it's, this is a moment where, similar to 2018, where it was close, even Colin Allred, when he challenged ted Cruz in 2024, he did pretty good. Not as good as Beto, but you could argue that because Trump was on the ballot, some of that trickled down as people were going to vote for Trump. This is as you're looking at what happened just in November of this year. If you're looking what happened just in the city of Miami, in rural Georgia counties, races, they're flipping. Politicians are becoming blue. They're turning counties blue. Places that haven't been blue in a very long time, if ever. That is really important to watch. If you look statistically at Texas, it is minority, majority. And so the reason that we're doing the whole redrawing of the congressional maps, the whole reason it was sent to the Supreme Court is because they know that they are outnumbered. They know that if people do get out and vote and are energized and engaged, then it could turn on them very easily. It's been very close before. And so I think that where we are right now with what's happening with the Trump administration, with turning places that are red blue, with people being dissatisfied and feeling the effects of Trump just this year alone, I think that it's an important time of looking at not just Jasmine and James in the primary, but also who can go on to win in the general election. Like, that's what has to that we have to focus on. It's not who can be who just now, it's who's gonna win.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, I guess my thing is I think primaries are always good for distilling ideas and sharpening candidates. Something that we obviously have to talk about is Israel. And there's a belief that James Talarico, because he hasn't taken any money from the Israel lobby, is in some way. James Talarico has taken money from Miriam Adelson.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And it doesn't matter whether or not, you know, he's a state official. So AIPAC wouldn't be as much of a player. But it doesn't matter whether or not you've taken money from aipac, if you've taken money from Miriam Allison, who is the staunchest pro Israel voice in America. Right Now, I would say one of them in terms of like, as far as a donor, she's clearly number one. Then to me, that is aligning yourself a little bit with the Israel lobby. Jasmine Crockett, I'm just gonna be honest with you. I'm gonna be honest with the audience. We have talked about Jasmine Crockett, but we have never talked about this. And the reason why we have never talked about this is because Jasmine Crockett cuts the visual profile of a centrist, democrat, Zionist. She does. She does. Now, we should frame this for the audience. And I want to make sure that we do this. Why does that matter? Why does that matter? Why does it matter that someone would be incredibly pro Israel or have pro Israel leanings? I don't want to say she's incredibly pro Israel. To me, it's not a one. I'm not a one issue voter on Israel. That would be like. That wouldn't make sense to me. Like, it's not a thing. Right. A foreign policy issue could never be the one issue that I voted on. But it is important for a reason. If, in fact, you view yourself as a progressive and you look at the situation in Gaza right now and actually the history of the state of Israel and you don't have massive questions and concerns, I don't think you're an actual progressive. I think it's impossible. I think it's impossible to believe in the attitudes, excuse me, in. In the tenets of progressive politics and choose to turn a blind eye to a situation like that. You just couldn't do it, right? So either you're not that or you don't really know what's going on there, Right? Either you're not that or you don't know. Now, the third one is more interesting, and it's something that I contend with in my conversations with friends all the time, is that you do know. You just don't care. And you don't care because you live in Houston or Baton Rouge or Tallahassee or Miami or wherever you live. And the problems that are in front of your front door matter more than something that's happened halfway around the world. And I have that conversation all the time. That's a conversation of philosophy. But these are politicians. And being that they are politicians, I think we need to understand whether or not we're dealing with a new version of politics or whether or not we're dealing with the same old, same old. Because if you're telling me right now that you are a cookie quarter, a cookie cutter, corporate centrist Democrat, I'm not that excited about you as a politician. Am I more connected to you than someone across the political aisle that wants to culturally codify kidnapping people off the street? Yeah, I am, definitely. Am I more connected and closer to you than somebody that wants to take SNAP benefits from people? And right now, as we talk, they're voting on the ACA subsidies and people that want health care to skyrocket. Am I closer to you than I am to them? Yeah. But we not the same. I look at change as needing to happen right now from a very, not even radical, but drastic way, a drastic change to how we position the needs and concerns of the working people of America. And if you are just another Cory Booker, I don't really give a fuck about you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So I don't think that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And I'm. And to land this plane. If you are another Cory Booker, if you are another Hakeem Jeffries, if you are another one of those people. Yeah, I'd rather have you where you are than somebody who I can't even trust not to yank a mother away from her child and send her to some country that she hadn't been in in 30 years. But the primary will tell me that the primary is where I get to see where we get to pose questions. We get to put these candidates up against each other, and we get to, through examination of voting record, policy and rhetoric, get to examine who is of the new school and who is the same thing dressed up in a different suit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. Other than Israel. I'm curious as to why else you call Jasmine Crockett a centrist. Because she wouldn't categorize herself, that she.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Rejects the label progressive.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I've constantly seen stuff as I'm reading if she. I've. I have not seen her flat out say, I am. I'm not progressive. I feel like when I see, when I was even just, like, reading in preparation for this, it was progressive politics. That's what she constantly says. She might say, I am not a progressive, but she talks about progressive politics. So I'm. I'm just curious, just for our audience purposes, what else other than Israel makes you classify her as a centrist? But I will say that for this election, Texas voters, Israel won't be on the ballot for them.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I'm not saying that that's okay. I'm just saying when I for them, it will not be important. It will not be the issue that is a deciding factor for them.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay. So that's true. And when I say she rejects the label progressive, I Don't think that she rejects the label progressive. I think that she doesn't caucus with the progressive wing of the party that exists in the House.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know if that. I don't know. I'm asking you.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, she's certainly not a squad member.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, she's not a squad member. But there's, But I know she's not a squad member. But that, but you're like, she is a corporate centrist Zionist.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

First of all, I never said that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, what did you say?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What I said is we're gonna find out. I never said that. I never said that she was.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, okay. I just want to be clear because I heard you say, as it's stands the way it looks, she is a corporate centrist.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, first of all, I, I, Let me, let me make it clear.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Let me make it clear. So we're going to find out, okay, Just like where her politics stand.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Her stance on Israel leads me to believe that she is a corporate centrist Zionist.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay. And once again, to everybody out there that is listening to me and it's saying, van, why does that matter? It matters because that issue and other issues, right, Medicare, Medicare for all, single payer, healthcare, things like that, those are litmus tests to how we continue in electing and empowering candidates. For all of my guys out here, and I talk to you guys all the time who are pro Israel and consider yourself to be Zionists, I'll just say this very clearly to you. The state of Israel exists. The state of Israel will continue to exist. What we have to decide now that we are having this conversation is how we relate ourselves to a state like Israel that we empower, that doesn't seem to share our values or maybe shares our values. In terms of the values, the way our position in the world stage really shakes out, maybe they don't share the values that we would want to have. That I would want to have. Maybe to be honest with you, the United States and Israel are so lockstep because they actually do share the same values in a very direct way. Because if you're looking at me, if your people are looking around and trying to figure out what I am in Louisiana, growing up like, we are the Palestinians of this nation. We are the people systemically and occupied by the police, a military force. We are the people that are underrepresented, that can't move freely. So maybe the reason that the allyship is so strong is because it's built on similar purpose, which is ethno national supremacy. Right? Whether direct or indirect. But if we look at that and we say that's not what we want to be, and if we know that there are voices inside of Israel, people inside of Israel worldwide, Jewry, Jews everywhere, that also want to reevaluate how they live alongside their regional neighbors, and when I say regional neighbors, I mean the neighbors all around that have been attacked by Israel, then we gotta be willing to have that conversation. And if you're not, if you're not willing to have that conversation, and if you've been on the AIPAC sponsor trips and if you've done all of the rhetorical work, I guess my question is, how similar can we be? It's not going to be one thing that makes me come out and say, hey, and this is for both of them. This is not just for her. This is for him as well. Because once again, we talked about the Miriam Adelson money. This is for both of them. It's like, how similar can we be? If we can have the conversation about not only the regime that is in Israel now, but how we have a safe Israel and a safe and established Palestinian state, then it seems to me that it's a wash and repeat of the same type of generational politics and the same type of Democrat that has been under corporate capture for going on two generations. And I'm not fucking going for that. And I don't give a fuck who it is. I do not care. Like, you guys can read this any way you want. It don't matter. I will support you when it is time for us to be in lockstep. That black woman gets attacked, that man gets attacked, I'm with you. But at the same time, when we sit down at a table and we have conversations about what moves for people, then we have to have those conversations and what moves for people out of trust and love. And what I care about is how the tech oligarchs of this country are taking over our economy. What I care about is how people are putting food on their table. What I care about is how we. What difference does it make if you call out extrajudicial killings that are happening off the coast of Venezuela and Israel can do them? So you are big and bold when it's somebody in a boat like, like. And we're doing that, and that's disgusting and terrible. But you don't mind the fact that we send all of this money to a place where they can just go and grab people and put them into jail whenever they want. No trials, no nothing, go in the west bank and expand the settlements, take people's homes, kick them out of their homes. We have to be better than that. And when I look at people that are looking to be national political figures, I want people that are willing to question that, people that are willing to have the con. We had Westmore up here. Westmore wasn't exam. Wasn't exam exactly. Hasan piker on Israel. But Wes gave me enough. Wes gave me enough, actually. Don't. No, shout out. Hasan. We don't know about Hasania. West wasn't. We had Wes up here. Wes gave me enough to know that at least there is a question there. At least there is something that you can talk about. It's not a single issue that's gonna change anything, but it is an issue to me that demonstrates whether or not you're part of the old guard or whether or not we can have a conversation about how progressive politics and how left politics need to change and move to work for people.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. And so we'll see if their question on it. We'll see.

[Narrator/Host]

We'll see.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We'll see.

[Rachel Lindsay]

As their primary. The same.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Donnie, they're voting on the ACA stuff. It looks like it's all fucked up.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah. This happened today. The Senate deadlocked on competing Democratic and Republican proposals that were meant to avert rising health care premiums that got blocked in the Senate today, making it pretty certain that expanded Affordable Care act subsidies are going to expire at the end of the month.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I mean, to be expected, right? Yeah, that's exactly what we. Sadly, what we thought would happen. And it did. I mean, Republicans have shown us time and time again that they don't care. I mean, we see what happened has happened with Medicaid. They don't care about affordable health care at all. They've been doing everything they can to get rid of the aca. And so them, you know, saying we'll have a vote on it meant absolutely nothing. It was never a win.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

How then do the Democrats avoid losing the shutdown fight?

[Rachel Lindsay]

They can't.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, there's a way that they can, in my opinion. I've always believed this. If, in fact, these subsidies expire, the only other thing that the Democrats can do is be effective in hanging this on the Republicans. This will cause so much pain. Guys, you're talking about 20 million people just losing health care, maybe more, just falling off the subsidy cliff. This will cause pain. This will be painful. And the question is, and this is a cynical, disgusting question, is how, in fact, you take this real pain that the American public is going to be feeling and a lot of red states and make this into, not make this into. And make sure Americans know who's to blame for this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't think that that's a painful thing to do. That's the reality. I mean, if Americans are suffering and it's, and it's directly because you had the opportunity to fix it and you chose not to, well, then you have that on your hands. You have unclean hands in all of this. And the reason I answered your question and said they can't win is because you say who wins? How do they win? The government shutdown, it's done, it's over. This expires. If this expires without any type of relief benefits towards health care, they lost it. I know you can use it as a talking point, as a reality for the midterms, but they lost it. We're here now. We're here. And who knows what would have happened if they didn't? Who knows if we'd be still be in a shutdown? Who knows if they Republicans would have folded? We'll never know. But what we know right now is we have 20 days until they expire. It's done. People are already seeing it because they already know what their premiums are going to be. They already can see what it looks like. They're already trying to figure out as they step into the new year, if I pay this bill or you know, like take care of this, this health need, do I, do I, do I eat or do I take care of this? It's going to be devastating. Devastating. And I don't think that they can get around it or avoid it. This is where we are right now. It's going to be so loud because it is going. The impact is going to be so great. In addition to all the other Stu, the layoffs that we're going through, inflation, the economy, like all that piled up onto. Now you also cannot afford health care, even more so than you already couldn't in this country.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. Prices rising everywhere. And now you have to make decisions about whether or not you can buy food or go to the doctor.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And that is a decision that the Trump administration is making that you could have fixed.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Literally, unclean hands like that is what needs to keep being put out there. You had the ability to fix it this. And you look the other way.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, I mean, do you. There's gonna be a lot of talk. Do you in any way blame the Democrats for this? It's not the Democrats that are doing it, they fought for these subsidies, but they did lose the fight to extend them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They lost the fight to extend them. I mean, it's not like they waited until, I believe that they didn't wait until September to do this.

[Mark Caputo]

They didn't.

[Narrator/Host]

They didn't.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

They didn't. They've been having the fight. They waited till then to shut the government down.

[Jasmine Crockett]

Right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

They could have maybe shut the government.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Down because we wanted it in March.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Ye.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes, it should have happened in March. And then, you know, here we are where we are now.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's broader question here. Broader question. Like, I, I could use this. I, I'm going to use a crude and triggering analogy. So everybody, trigger warning right now. Sexual violence analogy. Right. I'm sorry, A little make the face. I'm using an analogy. Right. So it's supposed to be a dramatic analogy, but trigger warning right here. If you've been affected, you know, you see on the movie sometimes where a mom has a boyfriend and the boyfriend is fucking around with the stepdaughter or the daughter, and you see the daughter or the son, whomever the kid is, you see the kid look at the mother or whomever and go, you didn't protect me. Like, I wasn't protected by you. And when you're watching that show or that thing that's dealing in these weighty terms, you always ask yourself, you go, obviously, the bastard in this situation is the, the abuser. Always. The abuse doesn't happen without the abuser. But there seems to sometimes be a special animus from both the viewer and the victim to the person that was unable to protect them. The person's. The person whose job it is to protect you, to stand in the gap between that person that might be your abuser and stop them. I feel like that is what a lot of people are going through when they're dealing with the Democrats right now and the onslaught of bad policy that comes from the MAGA Republican Party. They're dealing with, yeah, we know who the bad guys are, but we don't have great good guys. And that feels like, like that feels paralyzing to people. Now I always go, look, it's, it's Donald Trump who, who, who, who nuked your snap. It's Donald Trump and his party who don't want your subsidies to go up. It's Donald Trump and his party who have shredded the Constitution, got rid of due process. It's Donald Trump in his country who overseas, took away USAID and are basically starving children, right? Basically starving children. They're doing that. But There are people who are confused about how to reconcile the fact that there is this pernicious element in our government with the fact that they're supposed to be somebody who stops it and can't do it. For me, it seems pretty clear I put the blame on the people that are to be blamed, but the other people that look at me and they go, van, you know what, man? You keep telling me to get out here and do this. These people can't do nothing. Your thoughts?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, it's. It wasn't as bad of a analogy.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

As I thought you thought it was gonna be. Well, I'm just saying, you know, you see that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But. No, no, no, no, you're right. And that's where, I mean, I guess. I guess to bring it back to this primary that we're talking about between James and Jasmine, it's like that is their job to. And that's one of the things that Jasmine is standing on, is about igniting that person that you're talking about, that discouraged voter, that person who thinks that, okay, well, the person there ain't gonna do anything anyway.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What are they voting for? Are they voting for someone who has a record of winning this? Are they voting for someone that has a record of putting their needs and concerns first, above their political career and advancement? This is not about Jasmine specifically.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no, I know what you mean, but like, I think that's two different things, right? Like, are they voting for their needs and concerns? Well, yeah, that depends what, you know, we'll use. James and Jasmine have to say. But the reality is, if it's. They're up against what they were before, where they don't. We're not in control of Congress, Senate, have the Trump administration running, the Supreme Court, all of that, then there's only so much that they can do other than continue to fight.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's true.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's. And so that's at the end of the day, but they can speak to the concerns and the issues. And so that's my response to that would be, I understand. I understand why people give up. I understand why people feel hopeless. I understand why people do not want to vote, but that can't be the answer, because if we all do, if you think this is bad, it can only get worse.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I think we've. I think we're seeing that. I think we're seeing that. It can.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The lack of. Yeah, look how many people didn't show up in 2024. Right. And look. Look what's going on.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And once again, so. So that people know, very clearly these subsidies were put in place under the Biden administration.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Mark Caputo]

So.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So, you know, obviously they cared about them and they are going away under the Trump administration. And we should also say that there have been calls or not been calls. The Trump administration, the Republicans, in terms of health care, they've always promised to repeal and replace Obamacare and give you this great new plan, and they can't get that together and figure that out. They've never been able to do that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They haven't fucking tried.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

They don't have the will to do it. They don't want you to have the health care that I believe is a human right for you. They don't want you to have that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

All they wanted to do is destroy the Affordable Care act, not even trying to help you out.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But the politicians that we empower have to be effective. And. And last thing before we move on to Donnie's head coach out there, wilding the politicians that we. If you are a politician, it is your job to win elections. That's part of the job. I'm just being for real. If you go out right now and you say, you know what? I can't do what I wanted to do because the voters wouldn't vote for me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, you can't say that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I mean, I understand, I get it from an intellectual standpoint, but honestly, it's your job to figure out how to win elections. It's your job to figure out how to win them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know why that sounds funny.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, no, I tell you why it sounds funny, though, because I'll tell you why it sounds funny. It sounds funny because there's this idea that.

[Narrator/Host]

Look.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Both ways. It is all. It is true that you get what you vote for. That's. That's true. The question to me always is, why did you vote for it? Like, why was it so enticing to you to vote for it? And if we're saying right now that 70 some odd million people or wherever they voted because they was racist, you're not gonna have a guy like me go, hey, racism isn't in every decision that America makes. You're not gonna. It's kinda. They're not gonna have me say that. But what I am gonna say is that those votes vacillate. And they didn't do that in 2020. And there have been other times where they didn't do it. So the question, the sell scout, is like, what are we doing wrong and what do we need to do? We saw in New York a guy come out of nowhere and whatever you say about him. And I know people that are, like, watching every move that's made by the transition team and making sure that they're holding him accountable. And I like that. But you saw somebody put people's needs at the forefront, and people responded to it.

[Mark Caputo]

It.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

They responded to it, and you've seen that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did Trump not do that? What did Trump not do? It's populism.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I mean.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes. I'm not saying. You know what I mean?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He sold them that. It's about you. It's about your needs. I'm doing. He sold. That works. It's all a form of it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right? So I'm saying if we're talking about the same messaging and the same kind of shit that's been going on for a long time, and you guys are married to that, and it's not working, at some point, it becomes political malpractice for you not to go out there and talk to people in a way that energizes them to vote for you. And it's just a fact, right? It's just the way that it goes. All right, Donnie. Donnie, go ahead. Go ahead and tell us about your coach, Donnie. What the.

[Narrator/Host]

Not my coach.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He is your coach, but he's a coach. Are you. Are you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are you not a Michigan?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Are you a Michigan fan?

[Mark Caputo]

I'm an alum.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, so you're alum. You went there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's my school right now, hold on. Two years ago, they were. They won the national championship, and you were singing a different tune.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This is what the problem is with you niggas. Y' all run out the door. Y' all run out the back door. All right. That's your coach. He's in trouble. He's not your coach anymore. Donnie, break it down. What's going on? Crazy story in Ann Arbor. Crazy.

[Narrator/Host]

All right. Yeah. University of Michigan leaders and best champions of the West. They fired head coach Throne Moore yesterday after finding reportedly evidence of an inappropriate relationship with a staff member. Moore is married and has three young daughters. The school reportedly received an anonymous tip, which prompted an investigation. It seemed that they didn't get any evidence off of the initial investigation, but apparently, within the past 24 hours, new evidence came to light and he was dismissed from his job. Not long after that dismissal was reported, things get a little crazy. Police were called to the listed addresses of a female football staffer and his address. Moore was detained in Celine, which is not far from Ann Arbor and is a part of an alleged assault investigation. And court records show that he is currently still in custody as of right now.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Some of the things that are allegedly. Allegedly.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Being said, I want to be because nothing that hasn't come out in like a formal statement, but some of the things being said are that the ways that he was caught by the. The university for having this inappropriate relationship is because he had a plan B doordashed to this. To the school.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

To the school. That's what they say.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what they say. Allegedly.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And then the doordash. The doordash driver snitched is what they say.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I didn't see that part.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Apparently somebody said that the doordash driver, after they delivered the plan B, made an anonymous tip.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So I also read that she is. She's still pregnant.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I assume that she's still pregnant. I don't know that it seemed like the way it worked in my mind was they were having the affair, she got pregnant, he started getting aggressive maybe because he wanted her to end the pregnancy. She didn't. She retained counsel in retaining counsel. Counsel went we going straight to athletic office. They had a meeting at the athletic office and then they were like too much. You're fired by. The thing about that is it seems like all of that entire decision was made kind of quickly. Quickly. But there are tweets coming out from like December 1st and there's a tweet from a prominent Michigan State Twitter channel, whatever. And the tweet says the Michigan coach will be fired very soon. He got one of his staffers pregnant or something like that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So the plan B. But maybe the doordash thing had already happened.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Maybe it had. But. But the thing is there's something that I don't understand. I guess what I don't understand is this crash out seemed to come. Did he. If that Tweet comes from December 1st and the tweet obviously was correct and there all this other stuff that was happening on message boards, all of this other stuff that was happening on the message boards, if all of that stuff came from earlier this month, did Sharon Moore have no idea that he was being investigated? Did everyone else in football ops, everyone else in message board land know that there was an investigation into an improper relationship that he was having with the staffer and he didn't know what happened to to create the crash out situation on the day that he was fired?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Or maybe he was being investigated but didn't think that it would lead to fire because this isn't the first time now in regards to a situation like this. But he's been suspended. He's been investigated before. Survived it and still been a coach.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, but not for.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I'm just saying an investigation, right? Like sign stealing and stuff. Wasn't that what it was?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, there was a whole thing. The whole thing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But my point is, is that he has been investigated. He survived it. He was suspended a couple of games. He survived it and was able to continue as. As. As life goes on. I feel like typically when you see things, sometimes you see things like this, where when somebody survives something, it almost empowers them to feel like that they're untouchable and that nothing can. Can bring them down. So I.

[Mark Caputo]

If.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I'm assuming all of this, I'm speculating. It seems like he probably knew he was being investigated, but figured, I'll get. I'll get past this. And then when he didn't, he crashed out because he had, what, he was making what, five mil a year?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He's making five.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So he blew a head coaching job as a black head coach for a major university, coached on a championship team making 5 million a year. And you blow it all away. The power.

[Narrator/Host]

It's being reported that he was interviewed as part of the early part of the investigation, he and the staffer, and they both denied it. And that was where the university said, okay, there's no evidence from this.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So then maybe she changed her tune.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Of course she did.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And when she changed her tune, that's what caused him to crash out.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She was telling people, Donna, you watch Dairy, right?

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah, I do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Remember the t. Remember the. The teacher. Okay, the spoiler alert. Remember what Ms. Kirsch did to get old boy?

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah, she told him about the black spot.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She told him about the black spot. Threw her lover under the bus.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So can we talk about Donnie? Play. Play that clip of Sharon Moore from a. From like a couple of years ago. Real quick. Play that clip.

[Narrator/Host]

So it's hard to track down the actual audio of the clip, but he has the statement.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay. Yeah, I've got it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And you need to read it. You need to read it.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, Michigan. You read it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You read it.

[Narrator/Host]

All right. This was after Alabama beat or Michigan beat Alabama. And he was asked a question about Jalen Milroe. A reporter asked him about his comments on Bill o', Brien suggesting that he changed positions. And Sean Moore said, I really don't see color. My wife is Caucasian. My kids are mixed. I deal with black, white. I've lived in Kansas where you can be in the house and the door open. Leave the door open at 12 or in New Jersey, where you have to be in the house by 6 o'.

[Mark Caputo]

Clock.

[Narrator/Host]

I've seen all cars of the spectrum.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'll tell you something about them. I don't see colored niggas. They always see a white woman.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He sees color all through this whole statement.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I tell you what, he sees color.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Through the whole thing.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

If all of the guys that. All of the dudes in that position that say they don't see color, they for damn sure see a white lady. Look, I'm not. Look, here's the thing. Let's be all the way real. I'm not tripping on any of that stuff. Is what it is, is what it is. But there is just something. I don't know. This is different because she's white, is it not? If this woman were black, will we feel different? This is different.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's also because she has a white wife. He has a white wife.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But I'm just saying though, him and Mel Tucker, this is two prominent coaches, black Michigan coaches that have been taken down by it. And it's not.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, okay, okay, okay. As hilarious as I think this is, I got.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's not hilarious.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no, no, no, no. About when you say taken down, that, that comment. At the end of the day, that's this, man.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, I'm not saying that. Hold on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This man has issues.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Wait, wait, wait.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He's in. What did I say about. He's intoxicated.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Understand what I'm saying? I'm not saying that these women prayed upon these men and these men couldn't got taken. I'm not saying any of that stuff. Like, what I'm saying is that.

[Mark Caputo]

I.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Know I don't see color, but my wife is white and my children are mixed.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I know. Just FYI, it's like to me, I just look at this, I'm like, yo, what the fuck is going on? What can we.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Have you not heard about that whole theory about to be a successful black coach, you have to be married to or with a white woman?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Is that. What do you mean?

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what my coach friends say.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's not true. That nigga James Franklin not married to a white woman.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Keep going. Okay. Keep going. Cause I knew you were gonna use him as an example.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I mean, yeah, he's pretty. Tony Dungy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Come on now, Tony. You went from James Franklin who is currently coaching with a coaching years. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Let's do. Do this real quick. Let's do this real quick. Let's look up Notre Dame coach. So are you talking about college or pro?

[Rachel Lindsay]

College.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so just. So this is just cousin, maybe pro, but is it college or pro?

[Rachel Lindsay]

We'll go with college.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so let's go. Let's do black college. And this is not HBCU coaches, because HBCU will your whole thing up, right? Because all them got.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Do they. A white woman?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I was like, all right, so let's look. Donnie, who are the black coaches in NCAA football? Black coaches in NCAA football.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But it doesn't have to be head necessarily. But they say. This is. This is what some of my coach friends say. They're like, to advance, you have to.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Have a white woman.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what they say. I'm just telling you, this is what they say.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

All right, so, Donnie, I want you guys to look this up for me. These are the coaches, the ones that populated Franklin James Franklin, Marcus Freeman, Mike Loxley. I think that he recently was fired, though. Charles Huff, Tony Elliott, Deion Sanders, and Fran Brown. What's the percentage?

[Narrator/Host]

Brown has a white. A black wife.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Fran Brown, black wife. Okay, Deion Sanders.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And these are head coaches.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We should say Deion Sanders.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was talking about coordinators, everyone.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So you're talking about everyone.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is what. This is what they say.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We have to do a higher learning, deep dive into this. I don't know. I don't know how true this is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm two coaches.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I don't know how true this is, but we have to do a higher learning because a lot of these brothers. These brothers have, like, sisters with them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Some do. I'm not saying it's all. I'm just saying the. Statistically, you know, like, friends that I have that I went to college with, they, you know, went to the other side. They. They, you know, advanced my ex.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So. Okay, so then let me ask you this. In the Sharon Moore situation, we're talking about the racial dynamic and all of that stuff, but in Jerome, more just kind of a unique crash.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, no, he.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This really doesn't matter. People are talking about the fact that she's. That she's white. And that's the conversation. But that really ain't got that much to do with this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, you. You bring it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I know. Let me see the pictures. Let me see the pictures.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Ryan Walters on the other side. On the other side. Dottie do.

[Narrator/Host]

Do the whole thing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm just gonna do this.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We gonna break. We gonna do this on Monday. We gonna look at the black coaches and, like, the question is, do you have to have a white woman?

[Rachel Lindsay]

We should have known About Sharrone, though, when he had that. When he was crying, when he. When he was crying and he was cursing, and it was so unhinged. It was such an unhinged moment that didn't. It was a big moment, but it didn't warrant that reaction. That. But I was like, some stuff is off. Something's off, right? Something's off. That's all I'll say. He's a special case.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. This is very. Oh, Donnie's doing okay. So. Fran Brown, black. Mike Loxley, black. Desean Foster, black. Like, I don't know if you're. If your situation holds true, man. Charles Huff.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm just telling you. I'm just telling you what my coaching friends said.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I don't know what's going.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I didn't say, these are head coaches. I said, well, how you gonna get the.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

How you gonna be the head coach if you. You have to go through the coaching ranks?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, but. But you're still. I mean, how many black head coaches do you have? You still have a bunch of offensive coordinators, defensive coordinators, running back, tight ends, DN D line. Like, I'm just saying that this is what my. This is great to see from head coaches. I'm just telling you. My friends who coach. Tell me this.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, There's. But there's a. There's another.

[Rachel Lindsay]

More.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This is the serious part of this. And the serious part of this is that Rome more freaked out. And it looks like we have not heard anything from Sharon Moore. Guys, just to let you know, we get into this spiral of allegations and different accusations. We haven't heard anything from Sherron Moore. We do not know the full story about this. It looks like a crash out happened and occurred, but we don't know what went down. But it looks like he snapped in some way. Which makes you wonder about the mental state of Sharon Moore. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, it's being reported that. I mean, there was. They had to call. I don't know whose house he was at. Like, the wife got involved. There was, like, a weapon involved. Like, not towards someone else. But it's being reported. Allegedly, allegedly that he, you know, like, was threatening. Had a personal breakdown for himself. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, some people are saying that there was an assault on her first, which. The charges. Then an assault on him.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Like, he. There was a knife, and it was like a felony assault and then an assault on him. Oh, so he. He, He. He. He crashed out. But I'm just saying it's like These type of situations. You look now all of these tweets are coming up. There's one tweet where Sharon Moore is overseas with the Michigan program and he talks about the fact that they, they go into a Diddy party later on. No, that's a tweet. That's a real tweet. That's a real tweet. Last thing I'll say, I am not. And this is the tough thing. The tough thing is that, like, I'm in no position to morally judge these men. Right? No position to morally judge these men. I hate being the moral arbiter of things. So without being the moral arbiter of people, without telling people what they should and should not be doing with they dick, about how they should act, about the temptations they should turn down, about the things that they should ignore, how do we talk about, in a holistic and honest way, black men reaching the heights of whatever their profession is and then losing everything because of sexual misconduct? Like, how do we have a conversation about that without coming off as if we're saying that we're better than somebody else or we're telling people to have this decorum and temperament and fucking self control and restraint that you might not necessarily have? Is there a way, is there a person that would like to come on this podcast and have a conversation, an honest conversation, about the fact that this is happening too often? And I'm not saying it's happening too often in front of white people. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying, oh my God. Because it happened to Bobby Petrino, right? Urban Meyer has been in trouble for stuff like this before. Not necessarily while he was coaching, but people saw Urban Meyer with some kid, the kid with some younger woman, major apple white. It's happened before, to be honest with you. When Lane Kiffin came over to, to lsu, there was all of this talk about Lane Kiffin.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, boy.

[Narrator/Host]

Before him.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Did. Did. Come on now. You're not telling about Coacho now. Okay, no, coach, all of that stuff. So this has happened and it's happened before. It's happened before. It's not just something that affects, affects and afflicts back black coaches. I'm not saying that at all. I'm losing my, my vocabulary skills now. But like, it does feel different when it happens to a black man. It feels like something that we need to address, but maybe it's not. Maybe it's more widespread and we just fixate on it when it's a black.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Man different, because when it's a black man with a white woman. Because there's more of a nuanced conversation because of the historical. I guess I don't know if ramifications is the word, but what it. But because of what? That is a storied thing.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Are we. Oh, you're right. Are we overblowing? The black man gets to a position and gets taken down because he can't control himself. Is that an overblown narrative? It's not that we talk about that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think that's a man issue.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

A man issue, period. Not a black man issue.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, you could say that about the president of the United States. I think that. Yeah, Clinton as well. It's a jfk. Like there's a, there's a, it's a man.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Those guys through it though, they, their way right through it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There's a, it's a. I think it's a man issue. I think it has to do with the patriarchy. I think it has to do with power. I think it has to do with like a, a lot of that. So I don't want to just make it particular to black men.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I think it is men, men that can't stop. Yeah, they can't stop. How you deal with that with guys that they continuously. They just can't stop.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, me, I mean, I'm just having fun. Me, I'm good. Hi, it's Eva Longoria and let's be real. After 40 we should ask for more from our skincare. I swear by Revitalift triple power moisturizer by l' Oreal Paris. With vitamin C pro, retinol and hyaluronic acid. It reduces my wrinkles. Firms and, and brightens and it's not a procedure. It's just a hard working moisturizer. Revitalift triple power moisturizer by l' Oreal Paris. Grab it today and fragrance free or with SPF 30. Available at your local Walmart. So good, so good, so good. New markdowns are on at your Nordstrom Rack store. Save even more. Up to 70% on dresses, tops, boots and handbags. To give and get. Because I always find something amazing. Just so many good brands.

[Jasmine Crockett]

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[Rachel Lindsay]

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[Van Lathan Jr.]

We got Mark Caputo is going to join us right now. Bring Mark in. He's a senior political reporter at Axios. All right, you guys. We are joined by Mark Caputo. He has been covering national politics for 20 years, is a senior reporter for Axios, formerly of Politico, NBC News, and the Miami Herald, A favorite paper of mine because of my obsession with cocaine cowboys.

[Mark Caputo]

Now, I'm going to. I'm going to dinner tonight with my friend Billy Corbin.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, my God, that's the man.

[Mark Caputo]

Well, I will. I'll tell him to come on your show.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I would love that. That's the man. Okay. News out of both South Florida and the southern part of, I guess you know, where the U.S. is messing around. The U.S. i saw a tweet, and the tweet said this. I want to get your opinion on this. It said that World War three has officially began. And it said that because the US Seized a Venezuelan oil tanker that was bound for Cuba. Now, this is the latest escalation in Trump's just zeal and need to topple the Maduro regime in Venezuela. It seems like this is the latest and most severe escalation. What can you tell us about what's going on?

[Mark Caputo]

I mean, it's pretty big. The, the Trump operation broadly had some unfinished business with Nicolas Maduro. And in Trump's first term, he slapped pretty serious sanctions on Maduro. But there were a number of people who sort of held him back and said, hey, don't go too far. And now fast forward in the. In between, there were the four years of Joe Biden to this term. Trump wanted to get this done. The Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, is a hardcore anti communist, anti socialist Cuban American. And among the many reasons that the United States doesn't like the Maduro regime is that we've been longtime opponents, the United States government has, of Cuba. And there's this sort of axis of leftism in the hemisphere of Venezuela, Cuba and Nicaragua. But at the center of this is Cuba, which sort of exports revolution or had in the past, and intelligence services. And surrounding Nicolas Maduro are Cuban intelligence agents and assets. In return for sort of keeping him in power and propping him up, the government of Maduro, the government of Venezuela, provides oil to Cuba. So in addition to beginning this effort of regime change this year, which they deny that the ostensible goal is regime change, they say they just want to stop Maduro because he's a narco trafficker, or now they call him a narco terrorist, they dispatched an unprecedented armada and flotilla down there of a warship, so to speak, and began blowing up boats, which everyone knows. The notable escalation happened yesterday when this tanker carrying Venezuelan oil, I call it a Venezuelan oil tanker, but it's technically not owned by Venezuela. So it was a tanker carrying Venezuelan oil, was seized by the US Government, and more of that is probably on its way. Venezuela, a lot of people don't understand, sits on the world's largest proven oil reserves. It's got a lot of oil there. Nevertheless, it is a poor country in part because it's been terribly financially mismanaged. It's also run afoul the United States and U.S. sanctions. And the breaking news that we had today was that the Trump administration, the day after it sees this tanker and, you know, days after blowing up these various boats and killing lots of people, is now ratcheting up sanctions pressure, individual sanctions on Nicolas Maduro's nephews. There's three of them, as well as a businessman in the area, and six companies that have cargo vessels that have carried Venezuelan oil. And what that means is armed with those sanction designations now, you probably are going to see, or you could see more seizures, high seas seizures by the United States government of these Venezuelan oil tankers. And that could really cripple their economy. Long answer to a question. I hope I didn't go too far.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Hasn't Maduro already essentially agreed that we can have the oil if he, he stays in power?

[Mark Caputo]

Well, if he stays in power, he's probably agreed to that. That's some of the reporting I've had, indicates that that matches with the New York Times first reported. The thing is, is Rubio, who's from Miami, Miami raised Miami, born Cuban American, he doesn't believe Maduro. In those four years that I mentioned, in between with Joe Biden, Joe Biden's administration thought, okay, look, what we'll try to do is we'll try to come up with a deal with Maduro. We will ease sanctions. They coincidentally, but they say they're not linked. Decided to free two of Maduro's nephews who had been incarcerated for cocaine trafficking in the United States after they were convicted in 2016, and also relieve one of the sanctions on another nephew of Maduro's. And in return, they were hoping that Maduro would allow for free, fair and open elections in the democratic process. Well, Maduro got all the benefits of this, lifted sanctions both on his government and on his relatives. And then he turned around, just, you know, Biden just didn't do it. So, you know, so once the Trump administration got back in, in power here they were, they were saying, well, sure, Maduro is going to promise this, but he's going to renege on it. Ultimately, Understand that because he's surrounded by Cuban intelligence assets and because there are enough people in Venezuela who pay attention to history, they know that US Politics revolves in the presidency on four or eight year cycles. And this is the last term of President Trump. So if Maduro can find a way to just hang on for three more years, his chances of not being deposed greatly increase. And that's essentially what the Trump administration believes Maduro is doing, is just playing for time and it might work. Remember, Fidel Castro took power in what, 1959?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Mark Caputo]

He died in. Yeah, he died in office in, like, I think 2015. I think he survived 10 or 11 US presidents. There's a template for this. Unlike Cuba, Venezuela has the world's largest proven oil reserves. It's got cocaine. That cocaine money comes through there. Yeah, I don't think they're quite these traffickers that the Trump administration has said, but there is lots of evidence out there to indicate that the Maduro regime is making money off of cocaine trafficking. And something we don't talk about as much gold. There's a lot of gold in Venezuela that Maduro is able to use. So those are sort of three independent revenue streams. There's also a lot of precious and rare earth minerals that are pretty lucrative. Cuba didn't have any of that. And again, cashier was able to stay in power. And that's only, what, 90 miles from US shores, a lot closer than Venezuela is. So, again, there's sort of a template for survival.

[Rachel Lindsay]

How is the Venezuelan government responding to the seizure of the oil tanker, the sanctions on the nephews? Like, how are they responding to that? I guess putting that with the tweet that Van's reading about. We're about to see World War Three.

[Mark Caputo]

Well, we haven't heard any response yet to the sanctions, which we at Axios just broke a little while ago on what's this day, Thursday. So judging by how Maduro has responded recently to Trump ratcheting up the pressure, it's been very intelligent. Intelligent. Who's ever giving him advice, has given him the right advice for sort of survival. He's not antagonizing Trump. He understands that Trump sort of embodies this, what was called the madman theory by Richard Nixon. Like, sometimes you got to seem so crazy that everyone's like, whoa, we're, you know, not going to do anything about it. But that's Trump. And repeatedly Maduro is saying, look, essentially we understand this isn't Donald Trump. He's sort of being manipulated by Marco Rubio. He's kind of making Marco Rubio out to be the fall guy and the bad guy. And meanwhile, Maduro is appearing at a lot of public functions. He's sort of dancing around and pretending everything's cool and fine. Now, a few months ago, they did start to mobilize the Venezuelan sort of armed guard, but it was a bunch of people who were basically as old as I am. These are not guys who are would be able to resist a US Invasion force. That having been said, I want to be very clear, it's highly unlikely the United States is going to invade in, what, 1989? 1980. No, hold on. What year was it that we invaded Panama? I should know this. The United States did do this once before with Manuel Noriega in Panama, and we did have a huge invasion force. He had been indicted. President Bush sent in the troops, they seized him, they brought him back here to Miami and convicted him. Similarly, Maduro has been indicted in a US Court for drug trafficking. And now we do have an unprecedented armada and flotilla offshore there. But the United States government has notably not gone in. I mean, one of the things that has to be said about Noriega is in addition to terrorist. Well, in addition to the drug trafficking accusations, the main thing is the Panama Canal. And if you ever pull out a globe or a picture of the map, you realize whoever controls the Panama Canal is in an incredibly powerful position to control shipping between the Pacific and the Atlantic Oceans, the Gulf of Mexico. And the United States government was facing the prospect of giving up that control. Now, recently, in recent years, China has moved in in an unprecedented major way and exerting a lot of influence over the Panama Canal. And one of the things Trump did when he got in office is he appointed as his ambassador to Panama a guy from Miami. There's a lot of Miami connections here. The former county commissioner named Kevin Cabrera, who set about making sure the Panamanian government started to kick out the Chinese companies running the various concessions, so to speak, or the operations of the Panama Canal. And this all sort of fits together both Cuba, Panama, Venezuela, Nicaragua is. The Trump administration views this hemisphere as the United States hemisphere. Last week, there's something called a National Security Strategy document, something that a lot of people don't really pay a lot of attention to because they say the same thing year after year. Well, not this year. The Trump administration made very clear, like kind of doesn't care about Europe the way American presidents and the way past American governments did. It's focusing on Asia, on China, and it's focusing on this hemisphere. And A lot of these moves against Venezuela and the various countries that are allied with it and not allied with the United States is about removing Chinese and to a degree, Russian influence from our hemisphere.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

If, if Trump seeks to depose Maduro, and it's unlikely that Maduro self deposes, but then there's also going to be no invasion. What's the methodology to depose him?

[Mark Caputo]

I've been asking that question for months.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Are you going to. Well, I mean, at the very least you'd have to send in special operators, Right. In some type of COVID or clandestine mission to, to. I know that they're already there. Maduro has said that they're already there, but.

[Mark Caputo]

Right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So we, we, at the very least, if there's no full scale military invasion, they have to have some type of. That, they have to go into the country and try to get him. And they're already trying to do that.

[Mark Caputo]

Right? Yeah. I've, I've told people in the administration who support this policy because I've asked them the question for months, do you think Maduro will no longer be in power at the beginning of next year, at the beginning of 2026 or soon thereafter? And they say yes. And I like how. So you think he's going to be. Exactly. And no one can answer the question. So it reminds me of that joke of like two steps to becoming a millionaire. Step number one, get a million dollars. Right. Like two steps to deposing Nicolas Maduro. Step number one, get him to leave. Well, how? Like maybe he leaves in a pine box. There are options. And to sort of rewind to what I was talking about earlier, if you put things in context, the blowing up of boats, the seizing of vessels, the reimposition of sanctions, individual sanctions on individual people and on companies that are doing oil business in Venezuela, there is clearly a very concerted, strategic and impatient way in which they're sort of ratcheting up pressure. But to your point, and to my point is, again, Castro survived this sort of thing. How does this happen? I mean, in the end, the United States theoretically could drone Maduro. It would be terribly, majorly controversial. But the United States has declared, and rightfully so, that he's an illegitimate dictator because he did steal an election and they've declared him the head of a narco terrorist organization. And the United States government, you know, from Bush to Obama to Trump to Biden to Trump, has used drones to kill suspected terrorists. So it's not that much of a logical leap on paper to do it, but, you know, doing something on Paper and doing it actually in the real world are two separate things. So you could eventually see it get to that level. I'm skeptical. It does.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Let me ask you a question real quick, by the way. Yeah. He's a dictator. We love those. As long as they do what we.

[Mark Caputo]

Yeah, as long as they're our.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Caputo]

Just to be very clear, like the prince of Saudi Arabia, you're dictated.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right, Right. What in your opinion, runs out first? Because when we see these killings, the. The killings that happen, that are happening off the coast of Venezuela, I can't say extrajudicial, it's such a tough word for me. But that's what they are. Right. It's a tough word. The international will or the will of the American people to keep listening to that. Or the durability of Maduro as the head of state in Venezuela. Will people with the international community and Americans get tired of what we're doing in Venezuela before Maduro gives up power there? Because Trump already spoke to him on the phone and asked him to leave, and he basically was like, I'm not doing that. So does can he outlast our guts or our patience for what's going on down there? Because this is becoming more of a political issue, not just in the country, but worldwide.

[Mark Caputo]

Yeah. Past this prologue, the answer to that would be yes. But that's. That's if past as prologue, understand, which I don't really need to reinforce to people is like, Donald Trump marches to his own drummer.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You think so?

[Mark Caputo]

So, I mean, and he's any. He really. His first term was spent. He really resents what happened to him the first term. He's under investigation. He didn't know what he was doing. He didn't have a team that knew really what it was doing. They were fighting each other. There were just all of these problems. And the difference between that Donald Trump and this Donald Trump is this Donald Trump is having a great time and he's doing the things he wants to do. And so this is a long, roundabout answer to say that he might not give a fuck. Like Trump. Trump is built for doing the things he wants to do, and he doesn't care about the criticisms if he is determined to do it. What we don't know is how determined he is to do it and the lengths he's willing to go. We do know right now that he's not ready to push the button and start blowing things up in Venezuela.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Why do you know that?

[Mark Caputo]

Because he hasn't done it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I know, but why? Like, if it's such a fucking attitude. Why do you. What do you think's stopping him?

[Mark Caputo]

I do think that Donald Trump understands the art of the deal. Now, I'm not one of these cultists who are like, oh, everything Donald Trump does is great. And the guy's a fantastic deal filmmaker, but he's canny. He understands the application of brute force, and he's not ready to get to that stage yet. So now, this is me speculating, which I probably shouldn't do. But, you know, if we carry this out is you're blowing up boats, you're seizing vessels, you're sanctioning people. What are the next steps? Next step is, in addition to doing more of those things, things is you can start striking targets inside Venezuela in the jungle. Right. There's going to be a drug lab or two. Understand, Venezuela is not the primary producer of cocaine.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right.

[Mark Caputo]

But there are some areas on the border with Colombia where that does. That does happen. So you can start seeing military strikes inside Venezuela. You could start seeing military strikes in Venezuelan waters. You could also see Donald Trump say, all right, well, we have a $50 million bounty currently on Nicolas Maduro to capture him and bring him back to the United States to face justice in this federal indictment I mentioned, there's nothing stopping Donald Trump for saying, all right, $50 million bounty still, but, you know, we'll do it dead or alive. That's going to incentivize a certain number of people. There are also the possibility that if the economy deteriorates badly under Maduro, and if there are enough, there is enough ability to equip guerrillas and guerrilla forces that that could be used as a pretext to sort of help arm the opposition there to wage a violent and bloody coup. Those are all options. And then there's another option, which is I'll sort of intentionally use the. The narco trafficking era phrase. Back in the days when Colombia was really under siege in the cocaine wars, in the days of Pablo Escobar, they famously, his minions with the cartel, would go and meet with judges and present them a manila envelope, a giant manila envelope. This is the story. And in the manila envelope would be a check or a certain amount of money written out on it, like a bribe. And also in the envelope were surveillance pictures of all of the relatives of the judge, showing that if you don't take the money, we're going to kill everyone. You know, and the phrase that they use was plato o plomo. What do you want? You want the silver? You want the lead?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah.

[Mark Caputo]

And so Donald Trump could Certainly get to that level soon.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Jeez, I. Before we let you go, unless you had a couple of more questions I want to ask.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I got one more question. I got one more question about Genesis.

[Mark Caputo]

Hold up. Hold up for half a second.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Second.

[Mark Caputo]

What time we got here? Mo. Okay, what time do we have? No, no, hold on.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Five minutes to three.

[Mark Caputo]

And what time do we have to be on MS? 3:30. I'm just. The window opens up at 3:00'. Clock. 3:00', clock, but I think I'm on three. 3:30, though. Right, okay. Yeah, good. No, no, I just want to check my time.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, One. One question. Is it true that the US Intelligence attempted a rendition operation for Enduro, for Maduro, by using a pilot, One of his pilots on that was fixing a sanctioned jet. They tried to get him at the pilot turned down to $50 million.

[Mark Caputo]

I was unable to independently confirm that with my sources, but everyone said that they believe that's true. So. Yeah, certainly, I would imagine that that's true. And there's a whole load of other things that have been tried and. And attempted or thought of that that we'll never know about that have been done.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So.

[Mark Caputo]

Yeah, that story strikes me as being very true. Yeah, that was the one where it's like, oh, yeah, he's going to fly, right?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Like, yeah, you guys should look it up and listen, there's a. There's a. There's a sanctioned jet. And they. They. Oh, there you go. There was a sanctioned jet. They got some guys that were working on the jet and they said, hey, we're gonna. You're flying around this jet. We're gonna goddamn put you in jail unless you tell us who you fly around. One of the guys was like, I fly around Maduro. And it was like, we'll give you $50 million to fly him to America and then to do it. No, because he realized that if he did that, that his life would be forfeit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So he did. Yeah. Anyway, but. But they. They trying everything. Okay. Miami.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Miami. We want to ask you about Miami. Big election there. Historic election. Eileen Higgins wins the May, the mayoral race. City of Miami turns it blue, back to blue, but first time it's been run by a woman. Right. Or a woman in.

[Mark Caputo]

A woman. And the first time in about 30 years, it's, you know, we don't really call them, you know, Caucasians here. People like me would call it Anglos, right? You got Hispanics and Anglos. First time we've had an Anglo in 30 years. The first time as a Democrat in about 30 years. It. It was. There weren't a lot of people that showed up in the election. But Miami punches above its weight as far as sort of national attention. And this certainly got a lot of people's attention.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, that's, I was going to say it's interesting you say not a lot of voter turnout. Maybe you could speak to why that was, because I was going to ask you, well, what was it about her messaging that resonated with voters to be able to have this historic win?

[Mark Caputo]

Well, there's a few things. These are odd year. I think these are odd year elections. So you have an odd year special election. A lot of people just don't vote, right? Like presidential elections. There are millions and millions of dollars put on television. You can't avoid it. Same with a gubernatorial race, a Senate race. Those again, are in even years. This is an odd year election. That's when a lot of municipal elections are. So they're always lower turnout affairs. I'm not saying that her turnout was lower than other mayoral ones. I think it's essentially comparable. I haven't really checked the data, so give me a pass on that one. But as to her message, affordability is, number one, the city of Miami, Miami Dade county, that the city is in South Florida. And Florida, this is becoming a very, very expensive place to live. And one of the great things about Miami, like what we just talked about is this is sort of the northern seat of Latin America. One of the bad things about Miami is this is the northern seat of Latin America and we have Latin American style or increasingly Latin American style, income disparity. There are a lot of haves and a lot of have nots. And you can really, you know, I encourage anyone, like, look at the Rick Ross video hustling, right? He talks about, like, you go to Miami beach, that's not my Miami. And he talks about kind of going.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

A little farther overtown, places like that, right?

[Mark Caputo]

I mean, and an overtown, historically black community that was destroyed by the creation of i95, and now it's just being destroyed by gentrification, which is a fancy way of a bunch of white people moving in, right? And like the costs are just going up. People can't afford it. Insurance is high. And she spoke to that. So that's number one, affordability. That's both a national issue and it's very much a local issue. Number two, corruption. The city of Miami is a cesspit of corruption. Art Noriega, who is the city manager, is a perfect example of the fact that we either don't have strong enough ethics and conflict of interest laws, or we don't have enough enforcement at the state or federal level. The things he's done, which, if you get an opportunity to look at Billy Corbyn's, his Instagram feed, we'd mentioned Billy earlier, or his Twitter feed about just all of the shenanigans that have happened at City hall. Yet a city manager, better said he had a city attorney who allegedly, Allegedly, I'm going to say, participated in a scheme to swindle old people out of their homes. He's a city attorney. They don't need, like, a person. Right. You had a now former, thank God, city commissioner who was so opposed to his political opposition that when his political opposition held an event, a fundraiser, he's a political opponent at a place called the Ball and Chain, A fantastic.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Love that place.

[Mark Caputo]

Right. They sent city code enforcement there to basically shut down the government. Now the politician does. Joe Corollo, he got sued and he lost tens of millions of dollars in a judgment which the city of Miami was on the hook for defending this indefensible action. But he was able to do that because the city managers rolled over and just allowed city government to become weaponized. And then the city manager himself, he's had just sort of numerous cases of, like, his wife had a interior design business. And as Billy had kind of famously pointed out, these folks had bought, like, an $18,000 table and just thousands of dollars of just needless expenses. And at the same time, they were telling people like, sorry, we don't have money for a street sweeper truck to keep things clean because we have no money. Meanwhile, they're pissing away money on furniture to help enrich Art Noriega's wife. So the new, newly elected mayor, Eileen Higgins, has promised to get a new city manager. Sure hope she does that. So that's number two, corruption. And then number three, Donald Trump. Now, Donald Trump is not popular, and he has grown less popular in the city over time. And that is a very strong motivator that Democrats can tap into. I've often said that Donald Trump is sort of like nuclear power. He produces a tremendous amount of energy, but also radiation. And the successful campaigns for Donald Trump have found a way to harness the energy and put it to their advantage and control the radiation and keep the cooling tower on the reactor to keep it from melting down. And the unsuccessful times are when he's not on the ballot and that energy is not being harnessed by his campaign or his party. But the Radiation is still sort of exuding. And Democrats are pissed off. They're not happy with the way this, this administration has conducted itself. And they've made it clear and sort of related and I, and I, and I apologize, I probably should have ranked this higher. Immigration enforcement Miami Dade. The city of Miami. Well, Miami Dade County, I don't know the statistics for the city of Miami. I think we're at 51% of the residents of this county of 2.3 million people are born in another country. This is a huge community of immigrants, and it spans all political parties, all demographic groups, age brackets up and down. And the way in which the Trump administration has enforced immigration, while it hasn't been as brutal here in Miami as, say, it has in Chicago, which you've seen, or perhaps even in parts of New York or in la, it's nevertheless affected a lot of people. People. And there's an odd thing a lot of people don't understand about the special immigration status that Cubans get under the Cuban Adjustment Act. Essentially, if you're Cuban and you arrive in US or on US Shores and plead asylum, you are basically, essentially given an opportunity to stay and an eventual path to citizenship based on the idea that Cuba is run by a dictatorship and you can't return there and the United States is a beacon of freedom and of democracy. And they didn't get rounded up and deported. Well, that's happening now. So the once insulated Cuban community is starting to really feel the effects of that. And Miami in the latter years, modern Miami, is the city that Cuban Americans built. And there is a lot of displeasure with the way that happened happens now. Haitian Americans are looking over at what Cubans are experiencing, like, hey, welcome to the club. Like, we got deported all the time, certainly. So there is a, there's a lot of unhappiness with the way in which that's happened.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Did Miami Dade went for TRUMP in, in, in 24. Did they not?

[Rachel Lindsay]

The county.

[Mark Caputo]

It did. The county. Miami did. Yeah, the county did, but the city of Miami didn't. Harris won it by less than a percentage point. Right? That was what everybody was talking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like 0.7% and before her. So that's 2024 and 2022. Charlie Crist, who was running for governor for his old job to get it back, he won the, he won the city of Miami by like 0.5 percentage points, but he lost the county by something like, you know, 18 or something. And he lost the state by 20 points. Joe Biden in 2020 won the city of Miami by roughly 1819 points, which was what Eileen Higgins just racked up. So it is sort of a purple city because in the odd numbered election years you really saw the Republican machine turn out and sort of control elections and elect Republican mayors, understand? Miami Dade and the city of Miami to a great degree is one of the few places, perhaps the only place in the United States where 72% of the registered Republicans are Hispanic. That is, they're almost all Cuban.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right.

[Mark Caputo]

Cuban Americans are just very different when it comes to their voting preferences when compared to most other Hispanic communities. But this is a year where all of these various forces just became too much for Republicans and for sort of that Cuban American power structure to resist.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Last question for me and I'm it's going to ask for more speculation. I love to ask these, these speculation questions. So the Cuban American allegiance to the Republican Party has a lot to do with all these historical factors that have to do with Ronald Reagan and defeating communism and the American.

[Mark Caputo]

Yeah, Bay of Pigs, Bay of Pigs.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

All that stuff like that. Does the unpopularity of Donald Trump or the MAGA rights want to crack down on immigration in such an inhumane way, threaten, in your opinion, the overall and long lasting allegiance to South Florida Cubans, of South Florida Cubans, to the Republican Party? Does this type of cruelty, does this type of distaste threaten to realign the political reality in South Florida long term?

[Mark Caputo]

I think for the younger ones it does. We saw this sort of pattern. There are these waves of Cuban immigration that happen over the years. So you had like 1959, Castro takes over. A lot of Cuban Americans come over around sort of 1980 or so corresponding with Reagan. That's when you start to see Cuban Americans really identify with the Republican Party. They loved Reagan for the sort of anti communist stance. He came to Miami, he talked about Cuba Libre. Right. He really spoke to them and you really sort of see a change there. And then right up to that point you then after the Reagan years start to see a little bit of a drift or after the Bush years you start to see a little bit of a drift in the Obama years, it starts to snap back, it becomes a little more, it becomes a little more Republican.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Again.

[Mark Caputo]

There have been these sort of different waves that have happened and you start to see it with some younger Cuban Americans. And I'm basing this just on the younger Cuban Americans. I know and albeit I'm now 52, so I'm not so young, is there. There is just a great amount of displeasure over this, you know, so I, you know, I have a. Yeah, I, I know people. I'm trying to, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to phrase this properly because I, like, even I, like, I'm Anglo, right. I'm, I, I don't have any relatives who have immigration problems, but I, I know people who are facing the prospect of having loved ones deported. And shockingly so. Now they, you know, they had criminal problems way in their past, which were long ago dealt with, but nevertheless, you know, their relatives voted for Donald Trump. They're Cuban Americans. And now they're like, but you're, you're about to deport my uncle. You're about to deport my brother. And that's going to happen. And that, that is going to leave a bit of an effect. But one of the things you have to also understand about Donald Trump, which is very unique about him, is Donald Trump was a cultural figure before he was a political figure. And politics is downstream of culture, and therefore he is able to be outside of the system and inside of it at the same time. And the rules of political gravity that apply to other people, the rules of political physics, don't always apply to him. Once Donald Trump leaves, I believe a lot of things are going to re jump, rejigger, re jumble resort, and we're going to have to see how it shakes out. So I don't want to predict too much about what's going to happen, but Donald Trump is sort of a unique figure. He is still beloved, especially in the older Cuban American community, but the younger generations have some reason to have some beef with him. What happens going forward, any guess is a good guess as far as I'm concerned.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Mark Caputo, thank you.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Thank you for joining us.

[Mark Caputo]

I'm sorry I flaked out on you this morning.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's all gravy. You're doing your job. I'm in Miami next month. I might look you up and take you to a place I like called Playhouses there in Miami Gardens.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Don't do it, Mark.

[Mark Caputo]

Strip club guy.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

You know what I mean?

[Mark Caputo]

I always feel weird about those places.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, no, no, no, no. They trust me. They would love you.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

All right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Appreciate you joining us on Higher learning, brother.

[Mark Caputo]

All right, take it easy.

[Narrator/Host]

Thank you.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Mark Caputo]

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[Van Lathan Jr.]

All right. Thanks to Mark. As I could talk about the I get into the Venezuela.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, I know you were in was good, though. It was a really good conversation.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We didn't even talk about the fact that the fentanyl is not coming from there or all of that stuff. But we got into a lot of stuff that, you know, I thought it was good.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I thought it was really.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, I enjoyed it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, did his thing.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Brownie chill. All right, you guys look okay. I'm. I'm not. I'm humble. Would you say that I'm humble at times? Donnie, would you say that I'm humble at times?

[Rachel Lindsay]

For the most part, you are, though, truly.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So I'm humble. I'm a very humble person. I'm a humble man. That's why I don't do the I told you so stuff because I don't believe in it. Because the humble man that I am, that's whack. I'm telling you right now, wherever you at, if you're doing the I told you so stuff, you probably being whack. Earlier this year, though, I have to say that I told people as we were having conversations about movies that there was an agenda in this town against sinners. I said this. We talked about other films. We talked about brilliant films that people say are the greatest movie that's ever been made. And the movie came out and everyone loved it. This is the best film it's been made. And God came down and inhabited the body of a special director and made a movie that when you watch the movie, your life is changed and you understand sacred geometry. And after you watch this film that you can fly and you never have to take Ozempic and you won't gain any weight. That's what people were saying about the movie. That's how good the movie was. I said when a different film came out, a film called Sinners, that the response in the town wasn't the same. The response was, yeah, y' all like it, but we hope it makes his budget back. Like, we hope that the movie itself is good enough. Or, or is. Is the business is good enough on the movie. You never know. And, and the response of the film was kind of weird. And everybody was like, van, you're doing race. And we don't like that when you do race, Van. We don't. We. Van, all you do is race, you know, Van, you're a one trick pony. Oh, that's what they say. You're a one trick pony. All you got is race. So I don't want a man, you know, get into whatever. But movie came out, Sinners. It's brilliant. It's a brilliant film. $90 million budget, nearly 400 million at the box office. Everyone's going crazy culturally. The movie has already been appreciated and accept it into the filmmaking achievement area. Okay, We've already brought it into the area of filmmaking achievement. And when I say we, I mean us, the Black Panthers of the world. But now we're getting best movies of 2025 lists. These lists are dropping. Variety put a list out. Train Dreams is on there. One Battle After Another is on there. Sound of Fallen is on there. 28 years later is on there. Marty supreme is on there. It was Just an accident. Was on there. Dreams was on there. The President, Kate, Steve, all of these movies.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Have you seen all these movies?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I've seen all of them. Black Bag, Bring Them Down. I haven't seen Mars supreme yet. Black Death, Black Bring Them Down. The Bond, Nirvana, the Band, the Show, Like, Sorry Baby Twin List, Terms and Conditions, Hamnet, all these movies are on there. Sinners is not. Owen Gleiberman is another Michigan man. His top 10, one battle after Another. Marty Supreme, Cinnamon Value, Begonia, Wild Diamond, Mission Impossible, the fucking Final Reckoning. Are you kidding me? Are you with me right now? Are you kidding me? Owen Glieberman, Lurker Weapons, Black Bad, no centers. Now listen, now listen, now. I want to say this real quick, okay? You don't have to put sinners. You do not have to put centers on your. Your end list. You don't.

[Narrator/Host]

Okay?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You don't have to put centers on it. There's all kinds of movies that came out. It was actually a very strong year for movies in terms of artistic achievement. And Sinners does not have to Be a movie that you think is one of the best movies of the year, it doesn't. But if you don't think it's one of the best movies of the year, I think that it's fair for us to assume that there are reasons why. Now, if you are going to be uncomfortable, I'm about to delve into race because I think it's appropriate. There's a thought and a feeling, and that thought and feeling is this, that things cannot be too black. It can't be too black. And when I say things, I mean fine art. Why was hip hop outside of the discussion of fine art for so. For so long? Because it was too black. It was too black. It was too black. It was black in the ways that white people perceive blackness. It was aggressive, it was unfiltered, it was unrelatable in a way that made white people uncomfortable. Why, when you hear Fuck the Police, do you not hear Mr. Tambourine Man? Why, when you hear Public Enemies Fight the Power, do you not hear Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Hmm.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You hear the pure cultural expression of a people that have a specific experience, but it's an experience that either you cannot connect to or an experience that frightens you. So when you look at a movie like Sinners, a movie that is so unapologetic about the cultural experience it is talking about. Leave the vampires out of it. We're talking about black people, really. Not just black people, but people in the Mississippi Delta. The way they celebrate, the way they talk, the way they move, the way they look, the way they. They're lit, the way they celebrate, the way they fuck, all of it. Sometimes there is a thought that if those people are not slaves, okay, then that art can't be perceived as elevated. If Sinners took place on a plantation, it would all be different because that experience would be an experience that was at least in some proximity to whiteness. If Sinners right now was on a plantation and all of the characters and sinners were slaves and the vampires came, white people will go. We understand slavery. We get it. Some of this stuff they don't understand. They don't understand juke joint culture. They don't understand Asian Americans that existed in the Delta. They don't understand Chicago coming back to Mississippi, what it meant to migrate as part of the. The initial wave of migration, and they come back home. All of these things that are sort of culturally cemented with us. All of that stuff, there's no connection there. So when you're looking at a movie like Train Dreams which is a great movie, right? It really is. Or Marty supreme or some of these other films. There is a cultural oneness that you feel with them that allows you, in my opinion, to better understand the film. Even one battle after another. The movie that we talked about when I was on the Big Picture, you look at the film, it's. It's. It's quirky, it's quick, it has black people in it, but it is very, very, very white.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, it's centered.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Very white, right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, it's very much so centered.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So it is easy for you to approach that movie's greatness. You don't have to like Sinners. I'm not saying that you do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But I'm saying that there are reasons outside of the filmmaking, the acting and the story. The movie is culturally black, and it makes absolutely zero apology for it. And I KN when it was time to look back at the best movies of the year, that this group of people would do exactly what they're doing right now. And I want people to understand this. Forget about the Academy Awards and all of that type of shit like that and what's going to happen and all of that. Fuck all of that. Forget all of that. This stuff feels intentional. Like, this feels intentional. You can say whatever you want. This feels intentional. It feels like there is some type of method to this. I've seen these movies. You cannot tell me that these movies are better than Sinners. Not better made, not better acted, not music. Sinners is a. Even if you look at Sinners and you go, hey, you know, this is derivative of From Dusk Till dawn or. This is derivative from any movie from Tales from the Crypt Demon Knight. This is derivative from any film where people get stuck and they can't go outside cause vampires outside and whatever. Whatever. Even if you say that, even if you get into that, the music, the cinematography, the acting, the stakes, all of it. The purpose of the film deserves to be in these contests.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, for sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And I'm telling you guys right now, I knew you would do this. And it's the same shit that you always do. If we give y' all the hood, if we give y' all the plantation, if we give y' all the drugs, you fucking with it. Other than that, you niggas get on, get to the back of the bus. And you keep showing us over and over and over again, I'll say this. The movie that we made. Two distant strangers. The film that we made. What's the movie about? Existential struggle against white supremacy. The police, black trauma, Kid Gets killed a thousand some odd times. At the end, it's left open ended about whether or not we will be able to win that fight. White people look at that and they go. White critical minds look at that and they go, you know what? We get it, we understand it. That movie makes us feel the way we're supposed to feel. But can we fight the vampires? Can we fight the vampires in the juke joint? Can we look amazing? Can we get with the clan at the end? Can we do all of those things? It is unclear.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Can I ask you a question? So this is just the variety list.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's. List. It's. These are. There's a variety. It's. It's Owen Gleberman. And now it's. And now it's. No, now it's also Rolling Stone.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, Rolling Stones took them off too. They've announced the nominations for Golden Globes, so we're starting to tap into award season. Announced Golden Globes. Golden question is living your life. Sinners has been nominated. Yeah, for a few things. Both on music, directing, acting.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Golden Globes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

If. Does that change your opinion?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Nah, it's foreign press.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, so all of it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's. That's the Hollywood Foreign Press, not just the Golden Globes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm talking about award season in general. As we travel through awards season and if they could, seniors continues to be nominated and potentially win. Does that counter the argument that you've made? Because these are lists, variety, Golden Globes, these are magazines, publications, whatever they may be. I'm not taking anything away from you said I agree with it. But does it change your opinion?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This is the intelligentsia of the town.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So. All right, okay. Hollywood Foreign press is Golden Globes. I'm saying as they travel through awards season, if they continue to be nominated and when does it change your opinion?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I want Sinners.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I'm. I'm giving it to you. I'm giving it to you.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm a black man from south Louisiana and I saw myself on screen and I demand to be seen. I demand for us to be able to fight the vampires and kill the clan and you will respect it. That's it. No more. No more trying to act like I'm objective. I demand sinners. I saw this. I saw these movies. These moves. These movies are good. First of all, shout out to all the performers involved. I saw these movies. I saw these movies. These were good movies. These movies didn't have twerking through time. They didn't have two Michael B. Jordans. They didn't have Perlene These movies didn't have this. They didn't have Preacher Boy. They didn't have Delta Slim. They didn't have that. They ain't no. None of it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I want sinners and I demand respect. What did. What did Fredo say in two?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are you serious now?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What did Fredo say? I'm smart. I'm smart and I deserve respect. You're my kid brother, Mikey. You're my kid brother. I'm smart. Sinners is smart.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There's something that happens.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Sinners deserves respect.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There's something that happens on the podcast after hour two. It's that things just become a little bit unhinged. I want to see it too, though. I'm for it. I'm for it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What? What was on their list in July? Oh, so Owen Gleberman took it off the movies. Took centers off look.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You know, and replaced. I haven't seen. I mean, I haven't seen any of these news. Haven't heard of 90% of these movies. Haven't even heard of them. Except for I've seen one battle after another.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You know what? How about this? I changed my mind. I don't want it. I don't care what you guys say.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No. Oh, please.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Not after that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Passionate.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No. I changed my mind. I changed my mind.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We were all subjected to. Absolutely not. You better care.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You know what? Like, I changed my mind. I don't care about it. You know who sucks? The Beatles. They suck. They never made a good song. Fuck em. How's that sound? How you like it? Fuck the Beatles.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They don't care because they're still on their list.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Hey, that's not. You know what? How about this?

[Rachel Lindsay]

How about this?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Nope. You think they don't care.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Greatest band of all time.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

If you think they don't care, I'm a. Oh, they. They took this off the list. Sly lives, AKA the burden of black genius. Off the list. You know what? You know who sucks? The Beatles. The Stones. They all suck. I don't like any of the stuff. I don't like it. No, Spielberg can't. He does. Not good, Joss. It's awful.

[Narrator/Host]

The list.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You know what I put. You know what I put over Jaws?

[Narrator/Host]

What?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You know what movie means more to me than Jaws? Can we be honest about this? Meteor Man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, don't even get me started.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You guys are all over Jaws. You know what I like? I like Meteor Man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Such an underrated classic.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Can't find it anywhere.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys like Shaun of the Dead? You know what I like? I like Blank man. That's what I like. Okay. I like Blank Man. He didn't have any money and he was a hero. Those are the things that I like. I could continue. You ever seen Fat Beach? Ever seen Ride? You ever seen New Jersey drive this? That's what I like. Fuck it. Fuck it. Fuck. No, no, no, no. Telling you guys, you guys don't understand. The reason why you guys don't understand, it's because you never saw Carlito's Way, part two. Rise to Power. They got that much got puff in it, but it's not like a black movie, but it's nigga coded. You know, it's, it's, it's interesting. I'll just say, you know, guys, you know, we, we. We make movies and we like them as well. And they're really well made. And it's, it's Ryan Coogler. So, yeah, if you guys were trying to rage bait me and trigger me with all of this stuff you did, you did. I looked at these lists and I get, I get pissed off. I get pissed off because what, like, what are we doing? Like, what is like, what, what's going on? It's unfair.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're not wrong. But you care.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, you know, you should. You know, it's. You know my. You know what my dad used to say?

[Narrator/Host]

What?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

My dad used to say, shout out to dad. My dad would be like, you know, something happened. I would be mad because of Ella race and my sad would build. My dad would be like, you know, they don't, they don't like you. You know, like. What do you mean? He'd be like, they don't think you handsome. It's like they don't think you attractive. They don't, they don't think none of that stuff. So who does think you're attractive? Concentrate on them. The Africas, the NAACP awards. What about. I'm gonna make my own list. How about this? I'm gonna make a Van Lathen. We gonna make a higher learning list of the top movies of the year.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't think I'm qualified to participate.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This is the problem.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, this is the wrong show.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This is the issue you on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're on big picture rewatching. I think that you want me to be angry. You want me to be angry about sinners and the race issue. I'm here for it.

[Narrator/Host]

I'm definitely.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, they're not on the other side. The When Big the Centers is on the big picture list. I should say that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, they would. Come on. They had to.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What do you mean they had to?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, you think that they wouldn't put Sinners on there?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You think that Shawn and Amanda are in the back for the blicks?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm saying that whether they wanted to or not, they were gonna.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true. Really? Because. Because the biggest Centers fan, there's no.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Way that they could continue to podcast with you. I believe that they. No, I believe that they really believe that. I'm just saying. Can you imagine if the ringer list didn't.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That'd be so crazy. It would be crazy. But.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I believe they really wanted that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's genuine. Bill was one of the biggest sinners fans. Like, Bill walked outta the theater. I was with him. He walked out of theories like he was putting a koofie on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, thank God that he did.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He walked out theater.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. Thank God he did not.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, yeah. You see, we saw Sinners. It reminded me of like something that happened back in South Boston, 1982.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Boston.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. I saw Sinners and it was kind of like seeing. With my friend Craig Morrison. We saw sinners in like 19. It's crazy. The movie reminded me of like the Birds first season with the Celts. You know, the Lakers were kind of like the vampires. You know what I mean? Anyway, we gotta go. You pissed me off. You pissed me off with the entire Tennessee. I make no bones about it. Do you care about 50 Cent and Marlon Wayne's?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What's your opinion on Diddy?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, did he?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. Overall. Come on, what's your thoughts?

[Rachel Lindsay]

He's a monster. He should be locked up like he is. It should have been happen. Should have happened long ago. When did he have been longer?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

When Diddy gets out, would you go on a date with him?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Come on, Van. This is what I mean. Hour two.

[Narrator/Host]

What a.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What a. What an insane, insane, insanely disrespectful question to ask.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You don't believe in redemption.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's not. He can go get redeemed somewhere.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Put. Put Diddy to the side.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The redemption. It's not for. Over here.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Put Diddy to the side. Put Diddy to the side. Put Diddy to the side. What question for race before we go. Is there a. Because you believe in redemption after jail, Right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Of course.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Would you date a guy that has been to jail?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay. What crimes are out?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Violent.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So anything that's violent, Sexual, Sexual, Obviously sexual. Will be out. What if he's violent to another man, though?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't want violence, period.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No violence.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't want violence.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So if a guy. Let's say he beat up a guy's aggregate.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't want violence.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What if he robbed a store? Gun.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Armed robbery. Yeah, violence.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Violence.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's violence.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So blue collar, a white collar. You're cool. Defraud people. 10 million people from people's cameras.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I couldn't do that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I couldn't do that. Like the deception that's involved with theft, fraud.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, what are these going to jail for?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Drugs.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Drugs. So. So he can sell drug. See how she like that?

[Rachel Lindsay]

So businessman.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So he. So what you're saying is the guy that sells drugs to the people that he goes to church with and the people in this community, pregnant women, babies, like, all of that stuff like that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, you know, they made the decision to. To purchase the drug, right?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, my God. Oh, dad. Dad, Daddy, Father.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, I could do a drug dealer.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So you could. You could do a. You could do a drug dealer. Half you. Wow.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We've talked about this.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You could. You could do a drug dealer. But the drug dealer doesn't. He doesn't do violence. That's not violent to you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's not. That's not the type of. You're asking me what I could handle, right? I can't handle.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Handle violence. Okay, last question about this drug dealer.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The deception that comes with theft.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What if the drug dealer has violence done on his behalf? Oh, so, like, you know. So this is your guy. Your guy's name is Big Mike. And you know Big Mike coming to pick you up. All right, man. Travis.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Jerome.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Jerome. Romy. Big Romy. They got Romy. Romy, this is Romy. Man. Look, y' all got chill, okay? Like, why Rome? Why we got chill? I got some coming over here later, hanging out. But this is not like the regular girls from around here, okay, Y'. All. So y' all gotta chill. Hey, hey, put the weed away. Rachel coming over. Her daddy a judge, right? She go to Texas. We got some different shit coming over here right now.

[Narrator/Host]

Now.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

All right, y', all, I want y' all to go each. Everybody read a section of the encyclopedia and then say it to her when she gets here because she owns some different type of. All right, you go over there. You're chilling with Romy. What movie are y' all watching?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sinners.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Sinners. You and Romy watching sinners, right? Romy got it on. Romy got his decked out like DMX from Belly.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So he got the big projector.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You essentially Terrell Hicks.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, from Belly. This is you. He got the big projector and the whole nine going on. Y' all watching it. Y' all in all black. It's like all fluorescent Hype Williams. One of his homies come over and they whisper something in Romy's ear. And he goes, You sit next to him. You're like, roman. Yeah. Do you ask him what this meant? Cause he's not violent. He is a businessman.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's none of my business.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's none of your business.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Cause this could have been a go out that way. It could have been like two, not three. I don't know. I'm not asking too many questions.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So you like to think.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But also I would like to think that you said somebody who's been to jail. I would like to think that Now.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Now we off that. Now we in the middle. You're in the middle of the shit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Dating an active drug dealer.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Nah, you said that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You talked about retention. You talked about rehabilitation. What could they be redeemed for? I'm not trying to be caught up in the middle of a deal, okay?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Let me ask you this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not losing my well being.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So let me ask you this. You and Romy have a good time. You stay over. I'm not talking about what you do with your business. And you and Romy or whatever, y' all wake up. Romy got whole breakfast spread, fucking croissants. I got orange juice. You feeling like you on the phone, like, girl, this here got a maid and a cook. There's two different people. It's like. It's not like he got the maid and the maid cook. That. That's what broke. He got a maid and he got separate women. That cook, she from Honduras or something. Romy's homie comes back, he looks at Romy, he goes. Romy goes. The job's done.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not dating a man still in the game.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The job's done. Romy's killed.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not still in the game.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Do you stay?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I'm not. I would. I'm not dating you if you're still in the game. And that would be something that would be established up front. I'm not going to judge you for that past. But I'm here with you as you enter a life of rehabilitation.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Last question then. Last question. Romy's out the game. You like him, okay? You love Romy, Okay? Romy's out the game. Romy's done. He's seen the top of it. He's they know his car. Everywhere he go, oh, that shit. That's Romy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Got it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's Romy. He comes to you, he goes, listen, there's one thing that I have to do to get out the game. I got about 10 million. Yeah, 10 million cash. That's enough for me. You know who makes it enough? You make it enough. Because 10 million is. Is. I thought I would be in the game for more than that, but when I met you, it was worth 50 million. I put that 10 with that 50. I got 60. 10 million is enough for us, especially in Dallas. We could go far with that. But I need something. We need to wash this money. I'm willing to go down to maybe, like, 8.5. I'm willing to spend 1.5 washing it. I know. You know people. You got different niggas in the TV game and different types of shit like that. You know, people way high up in the government and shit. Bill Clinton and shit. Part of your family legacy. Like, I knew, you know, all kinds of. You know, Yodi from Hot Bench, she. You got all kinds of friends, you know what I'm saying? School, LeBron. That's in your network. You with that nigga, like, all of this stuff with you. Can you help me wash this so that I can be clean forever?

[Rachel Lindsay]

So he's got the 10 mil.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He's got the 10 mil.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He just needs to simply invest it.

[Mark Caputo]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You could call Nichelle. You could call all of these, you know, people that know people that know people. You know, people. You know, Nick Viall. I know that nigga know how to wash money.

[Rachel Lindsay]

First off, you know way more people than me. Stop doing this. Stop doing this.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm. But, see, the difference between me and you is if I see you fuck with any drugs, it's over. I'm out. Like, I don't do that, Ty.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Also, you wouldn't date somebody who was a drug dealer.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, you talking. No. Hell no. I don't want to be involved in that. I don't believe in drug dealing, okay?

[Rachel Lindsay]

But if you're out and you're done and you're rehabilitated, I'm not gonna judge you for that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Are you helping Romy wash?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I don't want. I be.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I would.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You know what I would have said? I would have been like, why did you bring me into this?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I didn't want.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why did you bring me into this? Why didn't you just do what you need to do? Leave me out of it now. I know. I don't want to be involved. I didn't bring you into this cuz I'm not going. I'm not going down for your transgressions.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You know who brought you into this?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

God.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Come on, let's. God brought you into my life. They've had. They've heard it enough. I've heard it. They've heard it enough.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

They. They upset I took the Romy 3.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't want. I don't want any. I'm not. I don't want any. Don't. Don't come in my tears. DMs talk about. I hear you trying to.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But if you support somebody. The last thing I'll say is this. The last thing I'll say is this though. Shout out to everybody that listens to the podcast today that indulged me on the whole Romy situation. And I want to hear your Romy stories for all of my brothers out there that was in the game at one point that got out the game that people like Rachel don't feel like deserve love. Like, I want to hear y' all Romy stories. I want to hear the stories.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Just leave it behind. I'll give you a chance. Just leave it behind.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Actually, you know what? How about this?

[Rachel Lindsay]

They're not coming on the podcast.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

In the new year, we gonna do the Rachel Pops, a balloon ex con challenge. If you've been inside and you doing better for yourself. If you've been inside, are you doing better for yourself? Not Rachel. It's not for Rachel. Rachel is just. We gonna put brothers back out here. Cause we need. You know what we need? We need love. We need to make sure that love doesn't suffer from recidivism.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Come on, come on. Take your thinking caps off. We know they've been.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Ah, you do it.

[Mark Caputo]

You do it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Cause I don't even wanna. I can't believe.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Take your thinking but don't stop listening. I'm Rachel Lynn Lindsay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Shout out to all the brothers.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He's Van Lathan Jr. We gonna let him go talk to somebody else. Cause you trying to get you.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Ah, they need love.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let him talk to somebody else. Bye, guys.