Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Jeffrey Epstein, Nicki Minaj, and the Streets
Date: December 23, 2025
A production of The Ringer

Episode Overview

In this episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay dig into several major topics buzzing in Black culture, politics, and sports. They begin with a sharp and honest discussion about the recent Epstein file dump, analyze Nicki Minaj’s surprise appearance at Turning Point USA’s AmFest and its cultural resonance, and close out with a debate on hip-hop’s “streets” mythology and the viral boxing match between Jake Paul and Anthony Joshua. True to form, they offer humor, pointed critique, and vulnerable personal anecdotes throughout.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Social Media Dynamics and Clipping (00:13–08:00)

• Ongoing Social Media Disputes: The episode kicks off with Van and Rachel referencing Keith Edwards' habit of using Van’s podcast quotes in online arguments.

  • Van points out: "There is nothing more tried and true than a white guy using a black guy to attack black people for him." (02:20)
  • Rachel’s clarification: “He continues to use your clips as if that is a Higher Learning thought. And it’s not.” (05:04)

• Threads vs. Other Platforms: Rachel maintains Threads (Meta’s Twitter rival) is essential, while Van jokes about finally joining. They shout out Jamel Hill as a positive force on Threads.

2. The Epstein Files: Release, Blackmail, and Public Trust (09:05–40:37)

Background & Initial Reactions (09:05–13:20)

• New Document Release: 13,000+ DOJ documents related to Jeffrey Epstein are released. The hosts discuss the accompanying images of celebrities and politicians like Bill Clinton, Michael Jackson, and Chris Tucker.
  • Rachel’s frustration: "I'm so tired of it. But it's necessary, right? ... It continues to make the administration look worse. They look suspicious. They look like they're hiding something, which they totally are." (09:47)

The Blackmail Theory and Cultural Impact (13:20–19:56)

• Van’s Analysis: Van describes his obsessive interest in the case and lays out suspicions that Epstein was running an extensive blackmail operation, given the sheer volume and nature of the photos.

  • Memorable quote: "I'm looking at these pictures ... why was that picture taken? What is the use of that picture? ... These pictures seem like surveillance." (17:19)

• Rachel’s Pushback: She counters, emphasizing that photographs don’t always imply guilt and details a woman’s account positioning Epstein as an obsessive celebrity “fan” collecting pictures.

Document Redactions, Congress, and the Trump Angle (24:04–40:37)

• Congressional Pressure: Van and Rachel report on bipartisan frustration (Ro Khanna, Thomas Massie) over heavy redactions and incomplete file releases. Threats of holding Attorney General Pam Bondi in contempt are noted.

  • Rachel: “I feel like they're trying to redact more than necessary or even protect Trump under the guise of national security.” (27:01)

• Cultural Politics: Van explores why the Right (QAnon-adjacent) pushed so hard for these files, noting, “The reason why these files are being made public is because this was a rallying cry from the Right.” (28:37)

• Bill Clinton Jokes: Van riffs on why Black America largely doesn’t care about Bill Clinton’s implication, sharing a volley of playful jokes scored by Rachel and the crew. (38:05–40:29)

3. Nicki Minaj, Turning Point USA, and Cultural Contradictions (41:39–59:39)

Nicki Minaj’s AmFest Appearance (41:39–47:07)

• Clip Played: Nicki Minaj delivers a speech about Black women and beauty standards, shifting focus to defending white women's right to feel beautiful.

  • Nicki: “If, as Black women, we felt that we were not being represented ... why would we want to do that to other women?” (42:04)

• Rachel’s Response:

  • “Nicki Minaj is full of contradictions ... She attacks black children, yet wants to sit on that stage and preach for us to not attack white children ... Your husband and brother are pedophiles and you defend them, then you’re on stage with the party that’s about protecting children.” (45:19)

Standing by the Barbs? (47:24–56:21)

• Van expresses empathy for Nicki’s fanbase, the Barbs, observing how difficult it must be for LGBTQ youth and others who found identity in Nicki to reconcile this shift in her public persona.

  • Van: “It is difficult to put the toys of our youth away. ... Sometimes though, people make you.” (49:24)

• Rachel disagrees: “If you’re a Barb in 2025, I feel nothing for you.” (48:47)

The “Rightward Turn” and Entertainment (59:39–63:25)

• Van theorizes that Nicki and other celebrities associate with right-wing movements to capture new audiences as their original base ages or loses interest.
  • Van: “The right return is a retirement policy. ... They are trying to attract a new demo that is tried and true.” (59:39)

4. Dave Chappelle’s Netflix Special: Reflections and Controversy (64:17–84:08)

• General Reception: Both hosts agree Chappelle’s storytelling is powerful, and the special—though less comedic, more reflective—shows his gifts as a cultural critic and provocateur.

On Trans Jokes and Saudi Arabia (69:19–78:54)

• Escalation in Trans Jokes: Van points out, “In Dave Chappelle’s latest trans joke, Dave killed a trans person ... That’s an escalation.” (69:19)

• Free Expression versus Venue: The hosts debate Chappelle’s claim that free speech is more possible in Saudi Arabia, questioning the hypocrisy when the country is known for harsh restriction of dissent.

  • Van: “Dave Chappelle did that for money.” (76:22)

“Who Do We Let Lie to Us?” (80:46–84:08)

• Van observes how difficult it is to let go of beloved cultural figures, comparing how people forgive or overlook problematic stances in their favorites—Chappelle included.
  • “It's just about who you let lie to you. Dave is brilliant, and I'm always gonna fuck with Dave.” (82:46)

5. “Fuck the Streets”: Street Ideology, Hip-Hop, and Changing Values (85:14–104:05)

• 21 Savage’s Viral Tweet: Van and Rachel react to 21 Savage’s call for peace and rejection of “the streets” mentality, which set off debate in hip-hop circles.

  • Read the tweet aloud and paraphrase: “Fuck the streets. We ain’t get shit but trauma from that shit.” (85:42)

• Hip-Hop’s Role in Glorifying Street Life:

  • Van: “The people that told me how awesome the streets were were these rappers... Not people actually from the streets.” (87:54)

• Culture, Judgment, and Second Chances: Discussion on the need for hip-hop and communities to promote healing, better opportunities, and honest dialogue about survival vs. glamorization.

6. Boxing: Jake Paul vs. Anthony Joshua (104:08–121:09)

• Jake Paul as the Face of Boxing: Van analyzes the rise of Jake Paul as the most recognizable 'star' compared to traditional champs, thanks to streaming and influencer culture.

  • Van: “Jake Paul is the biggest star in boxing.” (108:08)
  • Rachel and Van banter about whether Van said “star” or “boxer”.

• Anthony Joshua’s Introduction to U.S. Audiences: Rachel confesses to knowing nothing about Joshua but being captivated by his physique and presence, prompting Van to recount Joshua’s championship career.

• Race and Boxing: Brief but pointed commentary on how identity and country play into boxing fandoms and promotion.

7. Pop Culture Lightning Round: Timothée Chalamet and More (121:12–127:53)

• Timothée Chalamet’s “Crossover”: Rachel and Van joke about Chalamet’s evolving image and “black culture” crossover status, rating his “number” on the unofficial crossover scale (now 5,000 after his drill rap video).
• Sway and King Tech’s “For the Culture”: Van praises a recent hip-hop culture event for its diversity and unity.

Memorable Quotes & Standout Moments

• On Keith Edwards, social media, and political weaponization:
  “I cannot do anything but be honest about my perspectives on here ... There is nothing more tried and true than a white guy using a black guy to attack black people for him.” —Van (02:20)

• On the Epstein file dump:
  “These pictures don't seem like just photos ... They seem like surveillance.”—Van (17:19)

• On the purpose of the DOJ redactions:
  “They're trying to redact more than necessary or even protect Trump under the guise of national security.” —Rachel (27:01)

• On Nicki Minaj’s AmFest speech:
  “Nicki Minaj is full of contradictions ... She attacks black children, yet wants to sit on that stage and preach for us.” —Rachel (45:19)
  “It is difficult to put the toys of our youth away.” —Van (49:24)

• On Dave Chappelle and forgiveness:
  “It's just about who you let lie to you. Dave is brilliant, and I'm always gonna fuck with Dave ...” —Van (82:46)

• On hip-hop and “the streets”:
  “The people that told me how awesome the streets were were these rappers ... The people from the streets told me not to play around with this.” —Van (87:54)

• On Jake Paul’s prominence:
  “Jake Paul is the biggest star in boxing.” —Van (108:08)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Epstein Files breakdown/photo analysis: 09:05–23:44
• Congressional response and redactions: 24:04–28:35
• Bill Clinton jokes on the Epstein scandal: 38:05–40:29
• Nicki Minaj at AmFest, cultural critique: 41:39–47:07
• Discussion of 'the Barbs' and celebrity right-turns: 47:24–63:25
• Dave Chappelle's Netflix special, controversy: 64:17–84:08
• Street mythology, 21 Savage tweet debate: 85:14–104:05
• Jake Paul vs. Anthony Joshua, boxing culture: 104:08–121:09
• Timothée Chalamet crossover scale, hip-hop events: 121:12–127:53

Tone & Style

The conversation is direct, humorous, layered with inside jokes, and occasionally raw—especially when dealing with race, politics, and celebrity contradiction. Both hosts are unapologetically honest, often challenge each other, and use humor and storytelling to diffuse heavier moments.

For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is a masterclass in cultural analysis—ranging from dissecting the real-world impact of document dumps and celebrity contradiction to interrogating how hip-hop and Internet culture continues to shape Black experience and public discourse. Van and Rachel deliver sharp, at times vulnerable commentary, offer education on political processes and cultural history, and never shy away from saying what many are thinking (or afraid to say). Whether you care about politics, pop culture, sports, or just want an authentic current-events run-down, this conversation is as honest as it gets.