Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: "Kamala’s Disappointment and the Killing of Charlie Kirk. Plus, Melvin Gregg Talks ‘The Paper’!"

Date: September 12, 2025

Episode Overview

In this emotionally charged episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay dive deep into two headline-grabbing topics: the shocking public assassination of conservative activist Charlie Kirk and the political fallout from Kamala Harris’s new memoir, which reveals her frustrations as Vice President. The hosts thoughtfully analyze the cultural, political, and moral reverberations of Kirk’s killing and the public’s responses—including their own conflicts over empathy, political violence, and legacy. Later, they unpack Kamala Harris’s book excerpt and what it means for her political trajectory, before welcoming Melvin Gregg to discuss "The Paper," the new Office spinoff, Black representation in comedy, the value of vulnerability, and much more.

Table of Contents

1. The Killing of Charlie Kirk: Facts, Reactions, & Cultural Impact
   • The facts ([00:26]–[11:49])
   • Cultural and political response ([12:45]–[52:57])
   • Empathy, legacy, and humanity ([13:28]–[52:12])
2. Kamala Harris’s Memoir: Disappointment and Political Fallout
   • Book excerpts and reactions ([57:25]–[72:29])
   • Discussion on party, courage, and systemic issues
3. Pop Culture and Guest Segment: Melvin Gregg
   • The Bachelorette shakeup ([77:30]–[82:13])
   • "The Paper" and Black presence in comedy ([82:13]–[121:21])
   • Vulnerability, Black men in rom-coms, and Hollywood narratives
   • Heartbreaks roundtable ([121:21]–[132:41])
4. Notable Quotes
5. Timestamps Index for Key Segments
6. Episode Tone and Style

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1. The Killing of Charlie Kirk: Facts, Reactions, & Cultural Impact

The Facts ([00:26]–[11:49])

• Van opens: “Charlie Kirk was shot and killed. Yeah, that's where the show starts.” ([00:26])
  • Killing happened at Utah Valley University; shot from 500 yards in the neck, shooter blended into the crowd and escaped.
• Details:
  • Confirmation came from Donald Trump before any news source ([00:26]–[01:36])
  • No suspect in custody; shooter appeared highly trained and professional rather than a typical ‘rampage shooter’ ([01:36]–[03:54])
  • Political messages with ‘anti-fascist transgender messages’ reportedly inscribed on cartridges ([09:42])
  • Uncertainty about motive, perpetrator, or who benefits; speculation is rampant ([07:46])

Quote:
”This seems like someone who knew what they were doing.” – [Rachel, 02:41]

Cultural and Political Response ([12:45]–[52:57])

• Social + political reaction is deeply divisive; responses range from shock to fear to conflicted ambivalence.
  • Rachel: ”The response I'm seeing... is divisive. That's the best word I can use." ([13:28])
  • Calls out Kirk's history of bigoted remarks, especially toward Black women: ”Charlie Kirk is a person who spread harmful and hateful misinformation about marginalized groups...” ([14:41])
• Empathy and its limits:
  • Both hosts wrestle with the temptation not to mourn Kirk, yet ultimately condemn political violence.
  • Van: “The first thing I saw was... a human person sitting down and blood spurted from their neck... That empathy was reflexive.” ([19:02])
  • Rachel: “I'm not going to celebrate what happened, but I'm also not going to mourn it.” ([14:10])
  • Reflection on Kirk’s selective empathy and challenge of extending it when he denied it to others ([33:36])
• Moral and social complexity:
  • Hosts refuse to "whitewash" Kirk's legacy but recognize the dangerous precedent of political assassination.
  • Both emphasize that empathy for Kirk need not erase his damaging impact.
  • Van critiques the hypocrisy of American society in demanding empathy for powerful figures not known for extending the same.

Quote:
”If you steal my empathy, I become a masher. I become a dominator. I become an oppressor. And that's my biggest fear.” – [Van, 21:28]

Empathy, Legacy, and Humanity ([13:28]–[52:12])

• The hosts confront demands for sanitized mourning that ignore Kirk’s harmful public work, as well as the dehumanization of marginalized reactions.
• Rachel expresses fatigue over being morally expected to process political violence the way others dictate: “...to place Charlie Kirk on this pedestal and not acknowledge all the other things he was too, it just eats away at me.” ([35:59])
• Van pushes for honest processing: “Empathy is not something that you should ever turn on or off. Empathy is the building block of human cooperation.” ([29:51])
• Van also offers a stark observation: “There's a whole group of people whose power and influence is based on blaming you for every problem that America has... And then you go through life with nothing ever really happening to them. And then something does.” ([25:51])
• Discussion shifts to the dangers of escalating rhetoric, the importance of not stoking violence, and the ways in which public figures create climates they are unprepared to inhabit ([44:10]–[52:12])
  • Key quote: “If you are saying that you want the world to be a certain way, you have got to be prepared for that. And I know some of you, and you're not.” – [Van, 51:49]

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2. Kamala Harris’s Memoir: Disappointment and Political Fallout ([57:25]–[72:29])

• Kamala Harris’s upcoming book leaks excerpts revealing frustration that Biden never intended to support her path to the presidency.
• Rachel’s reaction: “I feel sorry for her... This is a lose, lose situation... He never planned to support her.” ([58:12])
• Van is incensed not only for Harris but at the political system itself: “Political parties neuter political courage. Political courage is what's needed to make actual systemic change.” ([66:25])
• Both lament the endless cycle of political memoirs that expose dysfunction only after the fact.
  • Van: “We get... books. We get all these books. It's three books. Dropping. Jean Pierre's dropping a book... Everybody dropped the book. Nobody dropped the truth.” ([68:42])
• Rachel concludes: “I can feel sorry for her but still feel like I can't trust that you would execute the desires that people have if it came down to that..." ([72:06])

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3. Pop Culture and Guest Segment: Melvin Gregg

The Bachelorette Shake-Up ([77:30]–[82:13])

• Rachel drops bombshell: Taylor Frankie Paul, TikTok's ‘Mom Talk’ soft-swinger leader, announced as new Bachelorette.
  • “I said, you know what? I love it. Let them be messy... This is their new diversity and inclusion.” ([81:17])

“The Paper” and Black Presence in Comedy ([82:13]–[121:21])

• Melvin Gregg discusses starring in "The Paper," the Office-adjacent mockumentary.
  • Describes show’s premise and challenges of being a spinoff ([84:59])
  • Talks double-edged sword of fan expectations ([85:52])
  • Debate on whether Black viewers (and viewers from segregated backgrounds) will find ‘white boy humor’ funny, and the cultural experience of acclimating to mainstream comedic formats ([86:32])
  • Melvin describes his upbringing in Portsmouth, VA, and the culture shock of entering white Hollywood ([90:32])
  • All discuss code-switching, both public and private ([92:26]–[94:33])

Black Men in Rom-Coms and Hollywood Narratives

• Melvin expresses longing for more Black romantic comedies, both as a writer and performer.
  • “Find your peace and your happiness and protect it. Focus on becoming more, not gaining more.” ([106:01])
  • Offers his concept for a "reverse Pretty Woman" style rom-com starring Nicole Beharie ([107:54])
  • Van and Rachel discuss the value of seeing Black male vulnerability and love onscreen ([119:21])
  • Melvin: “What's the most vulnerable... you gonna see a black man? When he's in love, when his head's on that pillow, pillow talking, saying all of his... heart.”

Vulnerability: Heartbreak Stories ([121:21]–[132:41])

• All three share their “biggest heartbreak” stories, in candid, humorous, and relatable terms.
• Melvin details writing a heartfelt letter to the woman who would become his wife (and initially getting frozen out).
• Van recalls learning the hard way about betrayal, joking about how his father gave tough-love advice: “It’s not your pussy, it’s your turn.” ([133:56])
• The roundtable morphs into a “men need more rom-coms!” campaign.

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4. Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Charlie Kirk is a person who spread harmful and hateful misinformation about marginalized groups in order to ignite his beliefs and his followers.” – Rachel [14:41]
• “Empathy is not something that you should ever turn on or off. Empathy is the building block of human cooperation.” – Van [29:51]
• “There's a whole group of people whose power and influence is based on blaming you for every problem that America has.” – Van [25:51]
• “I'm not going to celebrate what happened, but I'm also not going to mourn it.” – Rachel [14:10]
• “Political parties neuter political courage. Political courage is what's needed to make actual systemic change.” – Van [66:25]
• “Find your peace and your happiness and protect it. ... Ego is the devil.” – Melvin Gregg [106:01]
• “What's the most vulnerable you gonna see a black man? When he's in love, when his head's on that pillow, pillow talking.” – Melvin Gregg [119:21]
• “It’s not your pussy, it’s your turn.” – Van quoting his father [133:56]

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5. Timestamps Index for Key Segments

• Charlie Kirk Shooting: [00:26]–[11:49] (incident facts), [12:45]–[52:57] (social/political implications)
• Empathy Debate & Reactions: [19:02]–[52:12]
• Kamala Harris Book Discussion: [57:25]–[72:29]
• The Bachelorette Shakeup: [77:30]–[82:13]
• Melvin Gregg Interview & “The Paper”: [82:13]–[121:21]
• Rom-Com Representation Discussion: [107:11], [119:21]
• Heartbreak Roundtable: [121:21]–[132:41]

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6. Episode Tone & Style

• Language: Authentic, conversational, sometimes explicit, emotionally open, with both levity and gravity
• Approach: Strong commitment to honesty; both hosts refuse to sanitize or “whitewash” controversial legacies or moral dilemmas
• Structure: Deliberately moves from hard news to nuanced discussion, to pop culture, to vulnerable storytelling

In Summary

This Higher Learning episode is defined by its refusal to offer easy, sanitized answers to seismic events in American society. Van and Rachel challenge both themselves and their audience: to hold space for empathy without erasing harm, to resist weaponized outrage, and to demand more of political leaders. The cultural segment with Melvin Gregg is a celebration of Black vulnerability and creativity, reinforcing many of the same themes—about honesty, narrative control, and personal growth—that animate the rest of the episode.