Kid Cudi Takes the Stand, and the Fight for Reparations With Jessica Ann Mitchell Aiwuyor

Summary

Podcast Summary: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode Title: Kid Cudi Takes the Stand, and the Fight for Reparations With Jessica Ann Mitchell Aiwuyor
Date: May 23, 2025
Host: The Ringer
Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. and Rachel Lindsay
Main Guest: Jessica Ann Mitchell Aiwuyor

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Overview

This episode of Higher Learning is split between timely conversations in Black culture and politics, with a special focus on two headline topics: Kid Cudi’s testimony in the Diddy trial and the state of reparations, particularly the Maryland reparations bill veto. The hosts analyze the complexities behind both stories, including the broader implications for the Black community, generational divides, and political accountability. A featured interview with reparations expert and activist Jessica Ann Mitchell Aiwuyor offers in-depth context, clarity, and hope for the reparations movement in the U.S.

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Key Topics & Discussions

1. Opening Banter & Pop Culture (00:00 – 08:21)

• Hosts catch up and chat about Playboi Carti, youth music trends, and personal anecdotes with Rachel's dog, Brownie, in the studio.
• Discussion on musical energy and generational shifts, with playful debate over Travis Scott and Playboi Carti’s influence on young audiences.
• Notable quote:
  • "I think that black kids need the freedom to be vampires." — Van (03:00)

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2. Reparations in Maryland: Wes Moore’s Veto (08:21 – 31:21)

Context and Controversy

• Maryland Governor Wes Moore, the state’s first Black governor, vetoed a bill to create a study commission on reparations.
• The hosts outline the polarized responses: some see Moore’s decision as a true progressive push “past studies,” others as political avoidance.
• Explores intra-Black community conflicts (“diaspora wars”) over Moore’s Caribbean roots and expectations of Black politicians.

Notable Quotes

• "The only people that want reparations are black people. And then it's certain black people." — Van (09:40)

Key Segment w/ Guest (31:21 – 58:59)

Interview with Jessica Ann Mitchell Aiwuyor

Main Points:

• Clarifies that study commissions are about accountability, not just academic inquiries:

  "If I was to rename what this process is, I would call it a Reparations Accountability Commission because that's what it actually is." — Jessica (32:51)

• Explains five international standards of repair: compensation, satisfaction, guarantees of non-repetition, rehabilitation, restitution.
• Outlines the importance of commissions in legal accountability and transparency; veto leaves room for political evasion.
• Notes regional and national ripple effects—other states use Maryland’s moves as precedent (39:12).
• Skeptical of Moore's reasoning; points to political calculations, possible budget concerns, federal funding fears, and 2028 presidential ambitions (38:17, 43:54).
• Discusses who qualifies for reparations ("who, how, why" 49:52–56:25):
  • Who: Descendants of U.S. slavery, victims of Jim Crow, Black immigrants harmed by systemic racism.
  • How: Cash payments, baby bonds, free higher ed, healthcare support.
  • Why: "Everything that happened to our ancestors impacts us today. The reason why we even have the racial wealth gap is because many of our ancestors never got paid for their labor." — Jessica (53:10)
• Offers hope citing real progress in Evanston, IL—cash payments as tangible reparations.

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3. Quick Hitters / Trending News (31:21 – 41:05)

• TikTok Trends: Black male friendship ("good night, sweet dreams" challenge) leads to discussion on differing displays of affection in Black friendships (12:00–14:54).
• Generational Power Structures in Politics: Discussing deaths and longevity of Congress members; calls for generational turnover and political renewal (15:27–20:39).

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4. Sports & Culture: RG3 vs. Ryan Clark, Caitlin Clark Foul (21:06 – 29:50)

• Review of controversy: criticism of RG3’s take on Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, discussions on Blackness “purity tests,” and cultural infighting.
• Rachel speaks out about being attacked for her interracial marriage—pushback on "losing your Blackness" because of personal relationships.
• Van: "I don't know what the conversation about who's allowed to talk and who's not allowed to talk, where that goes, but nobody." (29:03)

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5. Kid Cudi’s Testimony in Diddy Trial (60:26 – 71:19)

• Kid Cudi testifies about intimidation, break-in, and intimidation tactics from Diddy.
• The hosts dissect media coverage—Rachel is frustrated by social media’s prioritization of salacious headlines and victim-blaming.
• Van examines how Kid Cudi's testimony could strengthen the RICO case, paralleling Diddy's organization to a mob structure.
• Reflection on hypocrisy and the "snitch" stigma in hip hop:
  • “If you try to blow up my car or harm me and then I get subpoenaed, I’m gonna be on there. I’m gonna be like, he did it.” — Van (67:43)
• Broader point about protecting victims versus upholding a “code of silence” in hip-hop and pop culture.

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6. Gaza Crisis & U.S. Politics (74:19 – 90:17)

• Van and Rachel react to chilling UN statements about starvation and baby deaths in Gaza; they denounce ethnic cleansing and total war policies.
• Van reflects on the challenge of remaining in solidarity with both Black and Jewish communities amidst the crisis, highlighting emotional and moral complexity.
• “If you can’t be pro Israel, you can’t be pro Palestine. Can you find it in your heart to be pro children?” — Van (87:21)
• Urges listeners to stay informed and find empathy amid political and cultural divides.

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7. David O. Russell N-Word On Set Scandal & Race in Media (90:29 – 106:55)

• Discussing David O. Russell allegedly using the N-word during a movie production, leading to an actor quitting.
• Van plays old clips of O. Russell’s infamous rage on set; both hosts dissect the power dynamics and discuss personal experiences with non-Black people using the N-word.
• Rachel and Van share vivid stories about having to confront colleagues and friends, underlining the recurring struggle of enforcing boundaries around racial language.

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8. Humorous/Light-Hearted Segment: Alpha Dog Video (107:07 – 113:37)

• The hosts and producer Donnie discuss and analyze a viral video showcasing a small dog asserting dominance over much larger ones—funny, light-hearted, breaking from heavy topics.
• “I've never seen anything like this before in my life.” — Van (113:15)

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9. Wrap-Up & Shout Outs (114:00 – end)

• Announcements of upcoming guests and shout-outs to listeners and event attendees.
• Rachel shares her review of the Kendrick Lamar and SZA show (with a light-hearted debate).

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "I think that black kids need the freedom to be vampires." — Van (03:04)
• "The only people that want reparations are black people. And then it's certain black people." — Van (09:40)
• "If I was to rename what this process is, I would call it a Reparations Accountability Commission because that's what it actually is." — Jessica (32:51)
• "We're actually moving at a far more accelerated pace than many people realize. If you juxtapose it to the centuries long movement that our ancestors have done to keep this movement alive…" — Jessica (56:44)
• "If you can't be pro Israel, you can't be pro Palestine. Can you find it in your heart to be pro children?" — Van (87:21)
• "If you try to blow up my car or harm me and then I get subpoenaed, I'm gonna be on there. I'm gonna be like, he did it." — Van (67:43)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Opening: Light Banter / Music Discussion – 00:00–08:21
• Maryland Reparations Bill & Pre-Interview Analysis – 08:21–31:21
• Jessica Ann Mitchell Aiwuyor Interview – 31:21–58:59
  • What the commission means (32:45)
  • Political calculus of veto (37:01)
  • Commissions elsewhere (39:12)
  • "Who, How, Why" reparations (49:52–56:25)
• Quick Hitters / Generational Politics – 11:40–20:39
• RG3 vs Ryan Clark, Black Community Debates – 21:06–29:50
• Kid Cudi & Diddy Trial – 60:26–71:19
• Gaza Crisis – 74:19–90:17
• David O. Russell Controversy & Race Talk – 90:29–106:55
• Alpha Dog Video Segment – 107:07–113:37
• Show Wrap & Shout Outs – 114:00–end

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Final Thoughts

This episode exemplifies Higher Learning’s blend of culture, politics, humor, and personal experience. The show moves from nuanced, sometimes difficult conversations about identity and justice to moments of levity that ground the audience. The reparations segment, in particular, stands out as a rich, clarifying exploration of a complex topic, giving listeners not just news but tools for understanding—and hope.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Warriors. What is up? Her learning is on. This is Ivan Layton Jr. And it's me, Rachel Lynn, Lindsay, the Brownsters here. Brown back.

[C]

Brown's back.

[B]

Brownie is. He's exploring the studio right now. Yeah, he's a curious little thing, getting around here.

[A]

Find this way. He just needs to find a few.

[C]

Spots he can get comfortable.

[B]

Rachel, you've been listening to Fiend lately. The record, I mean.

[A]

I did when it came out years ago.

[B]

I don't think it was years. Was it years? Was it last year, Donnie? When did Fiend come out? Look that up, by the way. Just to let you guys know.

[C]

2023.

[B]

2023. So that is years. Just to let you guys know, when we ask for something to be looked up, could you please look it up? Because I've asked for things to be looked up on the podcast, and then they just go by the wayside and nobody looks them up. Okay, Is that. Is that a possibility? That sometimes the subject keeps moving? Like, we end up moving on to something, and then the way the conversations go, it will progress.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Onto something else. And it's like, well, we got to keep the train moving. We don't want to, you know, go back to something that we have moved on from. So I.

[A]

You better defend yourself, Donnie.

[B]

It's funny. It's funny the way Rachel does.

[A]

Here he goes.

[B]

It's our faces on the podcast. We get stuff looked up.

[A]

Poor, pitiful Van.

[B]

It's not poor pitiful. It's actually, you know what? Fuck it. Watch. I'm gonna stop caring. We're gonna see how things go when I stop caring. Fuck it, Donnie. Do whatever you want, Donnie. You know what? We're gonna see how things go when I stop caring.

[A]

When I stop caring, Donnie.

[B]

Do whatever you want. Don't look this shit up. Fuck it, Donnie.

[A]

This is also not the first go around we've had of the. I don't.

[B]

We're gonna fuck it, Donnie. You're right. Fuck it. Like, that's my new fiend. Fiend. Fuck it, Van. I needed a more dirt fiend. Fuck it, Van. Fuck it. Fuck it. What we got on the show today? I don't know. We'll just shoot the shit.

[A]

I like the Fiend energy, though. I'm not bad at it.

[B]

Man. That Fiend song gets me going. I made a mistake and listened to it this morning. I made a mistake.

[A]

It's not for you. It's not for you.

[B]

I felt like he's like, have you.

[A]

Seen him perform it? People go, berserk insane. And that's what it calls for you to do. Fiend, show me what you do. It's like a shot.

[B]

It's like. I don't know what's going with that. I feel like a vampire when that song comes on. Like, that's what black vampires are listening to.

[A]

Well, Playboi Carti.

[B]

Playboi, Playboi Carti.

[A]

I mean, it's Travis's song, but you bring out the Playboi Carti in it.

[B]

And I fuck with playboi Carti, man. I don't know why.

[A]

I don't either. Not new. Maybe when he started, but the progression isn't for me.

[B]

I like it. It's like, I can't understand the music, but I think that black kids need the freedom to be vampires.

[A]

I think you like it because it gives you permission to lose it.

[B]

True.

[A]

And there's nothing wrong with that, but it's almost like. Like a release, you know? It's like screaming into a pillow. Energy. That's what it gives.

[B]

Gino's son. Sigh.

[A]

Is that the one that's. That's with Beelzebub.

[B]

Okay, so first of all, hold on for a second. Don't do my nephew like that. He's not with.

[A]

You're the one who revealed it to the Thought Warrior.

[B]

He's not with. I don't think he's with. I don't think he's a devil worshiper. Let's call him. He's not with Bub.

[A]

He's not with Bub anymore.

[B]

I wanna. This is my nephew. I gotta call my nephew real quick.

[A]

He's a rapper?

[B]

Yeah, he's a rapper.

[A]

What's his name?

[B]

Like, H. Like, I gotta call Sa Real quick. I gotta call Sa. Hold on. Let's see if he picks the phone up. I did S. Bro, you on the podcast, bro? What are you doing? Like, side. Side podcast? Yeah. You're on the podcast right now. What's your opinion of Playboy? Cardi C is the goat. He's the goat.

[A]

Why? Why?

[B]

Why?

[A]

Love the name Cy, by the way.

[B]

He runs the youth right now. Anybody that runs the youth, obviously they doing something right because the youth runs music, so obviously he doing something right.

[A]

When you say he runs the youth, that sounds concerning to. It sounds cultish.

[B]

It is cultish because he's a cultist. That's. That's the type of artist he is.

[A]

But we don't even understand what he's saying.

[B]

Give us. Give us a rap real quick. All right? Yeah. Bust something. Busted. Bust a flow.

[A]

What's your rap name?

[B]

What's. Oh, yeah, what's your rap name again? So they can go follow you. SV Haley. You can follow me at 6800sb on Instagram. Hold on. Okay.

[A]

On all. He was ready.

[B]

Like, that's what I'm talking about. But you say. When you say six, eight. It's not 666, though, right? You good? Not with the devil no more. I. I never was. Don't. Don't. Don't let him. Don't. Don't believe nothing you hear.

[A]

Why would he say that?

[B]

Don't believe the height.

[A]

That's a height.

[B]

So. But. But we. There was some talk s. That on the Internet that you were with the devil. That's not true, though. I told people. That's not true. No, it's all marketing. It's all marketing. You know, it's all marketing. It ain't. Yeah, I'm not. I'm. I love God. There you go.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

There you go. That's my nephew right there. That's my nephew right there. Yeah. Yeah, that's. So. So, look, we gonna start playing your music on the show. I'm serious. If you. If we have your permission, we gonna start playing your music on the show. Send you a song right now.

[A]

Send it?

[B]

Yeah, send us a record. Send us a record.

[A]

An exclusive, a new release.

[B]

I promise you gonna like it. Okay. Are we gonna be able to understand it? It's not like. It's not like. It's not like suicide music, is it? I don't want to hear no unalive and shit. No, I'm depressed. It's like more like Fiend. Cause if it's like Fiend, I can get into it. Yeah, I'm singing. You singing? Okay. Like, it's really on some, like, the beat kind of different. Like, the beat, like, real ambient.

[A]

It's the future.

[B]

Okay, well, send it over, and then we gonna play it. All right. I did. Damn. This nigga ready for the. Okay. Okay. He's just like his daddy. This is just like Gino. Gino would be like, hey, we got a music group. He's like, yeah, you know, like, here's three CDs. Here. Listen to him. I was born for this. You know that, huh? Yeah. All right, now. All right. Love you. I'll call you later. Is that. Is that Rachel?

[A]

Hi, Rachel.

[B]

Yeah, that's Rachel. Hey, Rachel.

[A]

Hi. S. Nice to meet you.

[B]

I'mma meet you in person. One day for sure. One day soon. What? Coming out. What. What is. What are you doing right now, are you trying to s. Are you or are you trying to. Don't worry about that. Worry about that.

[A]

I like it.

[B]

I like it.

[A]

How old is si?

[B]

He's what, 20? What, you 23? 23 the other day. Happy birthday, nigga. Stay a kid for a little while longer. Like, mind your man. I'm gonna call you later. All right, Bye. Just like his daddy.

[A]

What the fuck? Honestly? Yes. That's some Gino.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. Who says you can't be the topic of conversation for all the right reasons. The Hyundai Tucson hybrid pairs bold presence with advanced technology and sleek style. It's everything you didn't know you needed in an SUV and then some. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by Universal Pictures. Would you sell your soul for greatness? What would you be willing to sacrifice? Find out on September 19th in the new Jordan Peele produced horror film, him only in theaters. Starring Marlon Wayans as the greatest football player of all time and Tariq Withers as his up and coming protege. Directed by Justin Tipping and produced by Monkey Paw Productions. Never Meet yout Idols. Him hits theaters September 19th. Got Jessica Ann Mitchell, I. Woolyer coming on later because we're talking about reparations. Because you know what the question is?

[C]

What?

[B]

People don't know whether or not what Wes Moore is doing in Maryland is like a good thing or a bad thing.

[A]

Well, I feel like more people are saying it's bad and it's bringing up the diaspora wars again.

[B]

You've seen that because he's the Caribbean.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, he was born here, but his people are from the Caribbean. Yeah. So it's bringing that talk, like, you know, of course he did type situation. I think there are expectations of him as a black governor. But. Yeah, you know what? I am curious to what she's gonna say because this type of bill, reparations bill, it's not the first time it has come up in states and it has moved forward in other states, yet he vetoed it in other blue states. So let me get into it.

[B]

In case you guys don't know. We're talking about the fact that there was a bill on the floor in Maryland for a reparation study and it has been vetoed by the governor. Now, here's the deal. The governor, Westmore and Maryland, black governor, black governor.

[A]

Somebody who they also think is the future of the party, could be a future of the party.

[B]

We assume that the thought warriors know who Westmore is, but that's very important to say he's a black governor. But look, here's the deal. The deal is that Wes Moore is saying that, look, there's been enough studies. It's time to advance the reparations costs, pass the study. And there are some people that are saying that that is actually a red herring for him not to get behind this so that his chances in 28 are better. And because reparations is. And it's just important to say this. It's an unpopular political issue on both sides of the aisle. The only people that want reparations are black people. And then it's certain black people. To me, it's only the black people who actually.

[A]

I agree with that.

[B]

Yeah. So, like, the reparations movement is gaining steam, don't get me wrong. And that has never not been mainstreamed. Reparations as an issue has been around for years and years and years and years. But the Internet helps people hyper fixate on something and make it a talking point. And so it is now. And if you seemingly are black and against it, it says something about you.

[A]

I do want to say this. It is my understanding, and I was just looking this up again, that he's not saying we need to move forward on reparations. He's saying we need to focus on other racial disparities in other systems. I'm not. From what I'm seeing, he's like, there are other things to focus on and other things to prioritize and other types of legislation to help racial disparity in the state of Maryland. Not let's move the conversation forward on reparations.

[B]

Not holding any water for the governor. What I'm saying is that initially what was said was what came out of it was this is a study that then studies it. And then after the study, seemingly there would be some action on the other end of that. And he was saying, we don't need any more studies. Let's move forward, or not even let's move forward. We don't need another study about reparations. We know that we need it.

[A]

I don't even need to know if he's saying we know that we need it. And maybe that's the issue. That's the point of contention.

[B]

All right, so we'll get into that a little bit later with the guests. But before we do any of this stuff, we already, like, 15 minutes into the show. We around enough quick hitters.

[C]

Yeah, first quick hitter. We were talking about the youth. TikTok is the youth.

[B]

There's a trend going on On TikTok Van, have you ever called any members of the Player?

[A]

Oh, I love this.

[B]

Good night, sweet dreams. Nah, but I'm gonna start that.

[A]

Do it, do it. Oh, you can't do it right now.

[B]

It's too early. Too early.

[A]

It is so funny.

[B]

Hey, hold on. Should I call Ryan and just tell him good morning?

[A]

Yeah, I just called say good morning. Because here's the thing. The re. The difference between white and black people couldn't. It's what you would expect, right?

[B]

Hold on, let's see what. Let's see what happens. We calling Ryan live.

[A]

We can't say Ryan's gonna say it though.

[B]

Like, Ryan, we can't say good night, but we can say. We can say good morning. Now. I can't promise that Ryan not gonna say some wild shit.

[A]

It's also the. Has to be the afternoon.

[B]

Yeah. In Austin. Let's see. It's still like 11. Let's see. Is he gonna pick up? He probably at work. Hello? Yeah, what's up, G? What's going on? What you on, man? I just wanted to call and, you know, tell you good morning. Hope you have a. A really good day. I was thinking about you. I just wanted to tell you good morning. Hey, bro, I already saw the video.

[A]

But wait.

[B]

Ryan actually about to send it. Gonna send it to the group text the other day. So you ain't about to give me with that.

[A]

Ryan. Hi, Ryan, it's Rachel. What would. What would you. How would you have responded, honestly, if Van had called you and said good night? Just want to say goodnight, sweet dreams.

[B]

You know, it'd be weird. Like, why. Why the fuck are you calling me to tell me.

[A]

You know, you wouldn't be concerned?

[B]

It's. It's just not the. The dynamic of the friendship that we've had for. For almost 40 years. So, like, you know, like, why all of a sudden would you be calling me, trying to tell me good night? Well, I'm telling you good night right now, bro. All right, I'm gonna hit you back. All right. I actually think this is. I love this trend. I think it's fun. And I also think it shows. It's just a lot of people are gonna look at it and be like, ah, it shows that there's something that, you know, whatever, whatever. But I. I think there's something about the trend that's wholesome, that kind of shows the. I don't know, the connection that black male friendship is.

[A]

Yeah, it's. I can see how someone would be like, oh, you know, like, try to find something toxic. But I would argue and push back and say even when they're like. When they call. When the black friends call their other black friends and they're like, what the fuck is wrong with you? There's still a level of concern. There's still. It's not like, hey, is everything okay? There's still like, yo, are you like, what's good?

[B]

What's wrong? Right? And of all the ones I. And it always ends in love. It's always like, hey, man, what you.

[A]

You know, except for the one guy who's. I don't know if you saw, he was like, man, where's the red button on this phone?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I love this trend so much.

[B]

All right, Donnie. From something wholesome to something macabre. I don't know what's going on. Yeah. Virginia Representative Gerry Connolly passed away at the age of 75. This is a few weeks after he announced that his esophageal cancer had despite treatments. His family released a statement. They said that it is with immense sadness that we share that our devoted and loving father, husband, brother, friend and public servant, Congressman Gerald E. Connally, passed.

[C]

Away peacefully at his home this morning, surrounded by family.

[B]

Like I said, he was 75, third House Democrat to pass away since March.

[A]

And the fifth one to pass away in the last 10 months.

[B]

Hmm. Is this a function of a subject that we've talked about here a little bit, which is the advanced age of the people in our politics, or is they just catching a bad run? Is there something going on? Is this a fucking John Grisham novel?

[A]

I think it's a mix of both. It's not a John Grisham novel, but I definitely think it's a mix of both. And it should be a wake up call, not just for the Democrats, for just political leaders, period. I mean, you can't speak to somebody there being a tragedy and a sudden death, but for someone you know, unfortunately, like Gerry Connolly, this is. You know, you've had cancer before, you're 75 years old. I'm not saying that it would come back again, but it's almost like, pass the torch. Enjoy. Seven in your 70s. You know what I mean? Enjoy. I'm not trying to retire people, to push people out, but in a position like this, we just need to keep having. We've had this conversation here, obviously, a number of times. Pass it on to someone young. And even when you think about this, when you look at the years that these people have held office, 30 years, 22 years, 16 years. You got it Much younger as well. So why would you not pass it off to somebody who was similar in age to you when you joined? Why are you still holding onto it? There was something else I was gonna say about that two sided. Okay, tell me if this is wrong. You know when you. When you take a driving test.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like, you get a certain age and you have to, like for your eyes, you have to take tests and you have to. I don't know if you have to get in the car again after a certain age. Okay, wait. When I was a kid, when I was a kid in my government class, we had to propose a bill. And so I might be mixing this up. This was a bill that I proposed, which was when you reach a certain age, you need to have to take your driving test every two years.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it's not discriminatory. I'm not an ageist by any means, but obviously the older you get, certain senses decline.

[B]

Were you able to show data that proves that older drivers.

[A]

Sounds like fifth grade.

[B]

Well, what I'm saying is. We'll go back to something. What I'm saying is if you're gonna propose a bill. Right. Then what I would think is that you would need to show compelling data.

[A]

You're right.

[B]

That older drivers in some way propose a very specific.

[A]

These were just to get the ideas going. But you're right. And obviously I would have to do that to convince people to try to vote for this legislation. I'm trying to move forward. But my point is, is what if something like that was implemented politically?

[B]

Look, I agree.

[A]

I'm just saying.

[B]

However, you know, in this case, we are talking about people who. This Connolly had cancer. Sylvester Turner, who also passed away, had cancer. So we're talking about a disease that strikes people of all ages. You can get cancer at any age, get cancer at 35, you can get cancer at 45, you get cancer at 55. Obviously, we all know people in our lives who have been affected by it. Yeah, but look, the older you get, the more you're gonna be susceptible to these types of things. I think what people want, what I want, I can't speak for people. I do that too much. I think what I want is to know that these congresspeople and these particular Democratic operatives that they care about the function of their political machine as much as they care about their own careers. I think we talked about that the last time. This is obviously very sad. This gentleman also had a leadership position. He had announced that he was going to step down from his leadership position as a Top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee. Now, he won that leadership position over aoc. And so once again, you see someone who is a little bit more entrenched in leadership and a new generation wasn't able to ascend. When I was in Lanstown, Maryland talking with the Democrats, when I was in Lanstown, I talked to a lot of junior congresspeople and there is a clear schism between the stars and the non stars and between those in leadership and those not in leadership. Like in the party, in the caucus. Because I had people asking to come on higher learning. And they were like, hey, can we come on higher learning? I'm like, sure, you can come on higher learning. It's like, you're sure you don't just want the stars and the people in leadership? And I'm like, no, you're a congressperson, you can come on higher learning. You come on the thing. But there are people in the Democratic caucus who feel like they don't have a voice and they might be being in some cases purposefully, Purposefully drowned out to maintain a leadership status.

[A]

Well, that's what I was gonna say. Did they say that? I mean, they probably wouldn't, but I mean, what else? Why else would they feel like they didn't have a voice? Your constituents aren't making you feel that way. They voted you in. So who is?

[B]

This is. This isn't on the quick hitters. But I do wanna get into something real quick. When we covered Ryan Clark and RG3, RG3, we were still at the beginning of it and it ended up, oh.

[A]

My gosh, it's everywhere going even further.

[B]

By the time we had recorded on Monday to getting the pot out on Tuesday, there were four or five new storylines that came up from it. One storyline happening to be that I don't think that people knew that Ryan's daughter, his oldest daughter, was biracial. So this got really, really, really personal. And everybody jumped into this back and forth. I mean, you had the usual suspects in the Clay Travis's and the Dave Portnoyes, the Whitlocks. Everyone was kind of biting at this. And it started with the foul on Caitlin Clark in its totality. What did you think about the entire conversation and what it ended up? It ended up becoming like a black purity test. Do you feel like that that's where it was bound to go? Being that Ryan had the specific type of criticisms that he had of RG3, did it end up in a tit for tat? Was there anything that we could take from it? That was nutritious.

[A]

I mean, I think that. And we shouldn't be surprised that people missed the point of what Ryan was trying to say. And they held on to little pieces of it. You know, they held onto, you know, RG Free became. He's already. And I'm not trying to. He's already kind of a joke to some people. You know, people like to say he's corny, he's lame. And, you know, people started digging up tweets and they held onto the milk thing. You know, we talked about it here. So I think people were hanging onto bits and pieces and not understanding as a whole what it is that Ryan was trying to say, which is you have a pattern of being very critical to black women. I don't think you know how to talk about black women from how you've talked about it before. And part. And some of the reasons why are these reasons. And I think that's really what he was trying to say. And it just took a life of its own. Because when we had. I'm pretty sure when we had podcasts, I don't think RG3 had put out his video yet, had he? That's what, the second video. Yeah, he had that video where he.

[B]

Came out and addressed Ryan Clark and said that he did all.

[A]

He had all the points. Right. All the points to make himself a victim. How could you talk about my family? How could you talk about my children? His wife wasn't in the video that time. He called out espn. He knew exactly what he was doing with that to try to get a job that let him go and kept a Ryan or didn't renew his contract and kept Ryan, got his renewed. He called them out to take action against Ryan. He knew exactly what he was doing. And to me, he didn't address any of the points that Ryan was making. He basically cried in words. And so I just think that it's easy when you name the usual suspects. They love this kind of thing because they can hit the points or the beliefs or the opinions that they have and use a subject like this to do it, rather than actually trying to understand what Ryan was saying from the beginning.

[B]

Yeah. First of all, I don't think that RG3's criticism of Angel Reese or his observation about Angel Reese was a sports take. I don't think that it was and it wasn't.

[A]

And that was a great point.

[B]

Yeah, I don't think that that was a sports take. I think it was, hey, she hates this person. And, you know, RG3 is an intelligent guy. And so in context, he must know that if he's not talking about the actual foul in and of itself, if he's not talking about stats, if he's not talking about strategy, box scores, whatever, that if he's talking about a personal feeling that he believes that Angel Reese has for Caitlin Clark, then there's gonna be a very specific criticism that's gonna come along with that of Angel Reese.

[A]

I think he conflated it. Right. Because he gave a personal opinion, but he backed that opinion up with basketball examples. So he's saying, therefore, this is a basketball take, which is not true. Well, I mean. And he had just said, you know, they're very physical with one another on the court. And this is why, even if he.

[B]

Would have been like, what is it? Because this file doesn't seem like it's that big of a deal. This file doesn't seem like it's that big of a deal. Is there actually something more? But that's not what he said. He said she hates her. She hates her. And even throwing around the word hate in a situation where there is a racial dynamic is incendiary to it.

[A]

He doesn't understand that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that's the point.

[B]

Well, here's the deal. And then, you know, we get into the back and forth. It's like, you talked about my family, you talked about this. You talked about that you did all this. And I would say that Ryan simply did the same thing to RG3 that RG3 did to Andrew Reese. He says, you're in this situation, and this situation makes you respond and react to issues surrounding race and surrounding culture in this specific way. And so what's good for the goose is, I guess, good for the gander. And then we have sort of a conversation back and forth about who's the purest of black voice in order to bring these issues up and talk about these issues.

[A]

Yeah, no, I agree with you, but it also is.

[B]

And then you got. Then you were fighting on my Twitter.

[A]

I'm so. I am.

[B]

Why'd you do that?

[A]

It was late.

[B]

Let me ask you a question.

[A]

It was late. I was in a mood. And I just did not need to see that in that moment.

[B]

When I see you fighting with somebody on the Twitter and then he comes back at you, what do you want me to do in that situation?

[A]

Oh, I didn't expect anything from you.

[B]

But, like. But he. You tell him the fuck all the way off. So some guy on Twitter, legitimately, some Twitter follower said in multiple tweets, yeah, Said that Rachel shouldn't be talking about this either because you were married to Brian, that Rachel.

[A]

So I lose all of my blackness because I'm married, which, again, isn't the point. Which is what they were trying to do to Ryan. How dare you talk about somebody's situation when you have a child with someone who wasn't black. And I am so sick of that stupid argument of you lose your ability to be black when you connect yourself to somebody who is not black. And that's basically what he said. And it was just like, he called me at a time where I saw it. I was probably drinking. I can't remember what time it was. I wasn't in the mood. And I just. And the fact that he was soliciting you to, like, agree with him, really, and obviously you don't, but it just made me even more annoyed. It wasn't a comment under a YouTube video or a social media post. It was, hey, van do this. And I was like, you can fuck all the way off and kiss my black ass because I am black. And it's not like I'm. You know, obviously I'm past that. People say these kind of things all the time, but it just struck a nerve in that moment. I was so annoyed by that. Yeah, no, but you didn't have to.

[B]

Say anything, because then I'm like, okay, well, she told him to fuck off. He says, he calls you.

[A]

He called me a fuck nigga.

[B]

Calls you a fuck nigga. I'm like, I want to be like, hey, don't talk to her like that. But then. And then at the same time, I don't want to, like, step in like.

[A]

I'm the big brother. He wants a response from you. So I think you're handling it just fine. But.

[B]

But I don't like when people. It don't matter if you. I'm like, not an equal opportunity type of guy. It doesn't matter what you say. You could hit somebody, and if they hit you back, I'm gonna be like, don't touch her. You know what I mean? So it's just weird. But, yeah. So I don't know. I don't know what the conversation about who's allowed to talk and who's not allowed to talk, where that goes, but nobody.

[A]

That's the thing, too. Nobody is saying RG3 can't talk. It's the way he's talking and what Ryan was saying. Your lack of understanding, the dynamics, the sit. The experience of black women, you don't get it. You aren't trying to get it. And let me give you examples as to how I know that this is the case. And RG3 got his feelings hurt. And that's really what it comes down to. Nobody's taking away his blackness. He's doing that all by himself, by, as I said before, constantly centering whiteness in his life. And the only way we really talk about RG3, which I know this is why he did this as well, is because is when he attaches color to it. Otherwise, we're not.

[B]

Let's bring in our guest, Jessica Ann Mitchell. Iwood is about to join us on Higher Learning. We're going to have a conversation about reparations. Reparationists. Multicultural She's a reparationist and multicultural communication specialist, founder of the National Black Cultural Information Trust, commissioner of the National African American Reparations Committee, also a member of the National Coalition of Blacks for Reparations in America in COBRA and is a member of Case for Reparations Advisory Committee, author of Black Inspiring and Empowering Quotes from Global Thought Leaders. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai, who says you can't be the topic of conversation for all the right reasons. The Hyundai Tucson hybrid pairs bold presence with advanced technology and sleek style. It's everything you didn't know you needed in an SUV and then some. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by ebay. We all have that piece, the one that's so you. You've basically become known for it. And if you don't yet fashionistas, you'll find it on ebay. That Miu Miu red leather bomber, the cousteau Barcelona cowboy top. Or that Patagonia fleece in the 2017 colorway. All these finds are all on ebay, along with millions of more main character pieces backed by authenticity guarantee. Ebay is the place for pre loved and vintage fashion ebay things people love.

[B]

How are you doing?

[C]

Good. How you doing?

[B]

Doing great. We have questions for you.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

Well, first of all, thank you for joining us on Higher Learning. We have questions about reparations, the fight for reparations, but also specifically about the veto in Maryland of the reparations bill from Governor Westmore. Now, the governor called it a difficult decision and he said the scholarship on this topic is both vast in scope and robust bust in scale. While I appreciate the work that went into this legislation, I strongly believe now is not the time for another study. Now is the time for continued action that delivers results for the people that we serve. Jessica this was looked at in two different ways. The first way or not the first way. One way was that people looked at this as him saying no to advancing the cause of reparations in his state. The second way was people saying that he is over empty procedure that goes into this and wants to see some actions on it, rather than a study for somebody who's devoted their life to reparations and it's a large part of what it is they do. How did you look at it?

[C]

I think the confusion is around study. I think that's what it is. Not necessarily on the part of the governor, but on the part of the public. So when people hear study, I think that there's this connotation that people think we're just going to pick up some like old books on slavery and read it. If I was to rename what this process is, I would call it a Reparations Accountability Commission because that's what it actually is. When you have these types of commissions like the one that passed the Maryland General assembly and was supported by the Maryland Legislative Black Caucus, this is an opportunity to hold our local government accountable for the harms that it has contributed to over the last few centuries. So when there's a commission, here's what happens. First of all, there's five international standards of repair. There's compensation satisfaction, guarantees of non repetition, rehabilitation and restitution. And that is established through a type of process. So first of all, look at slavery as a crime against humanity. What happens when a crime takes place? There's a trial, right?

[B]

Right.

[C]

So that's kind of what the commission is. So the commission or task force, whatever is called in various local jurisdictions, it includes studies, it includes research reports directly into the state's involvement in chattel slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, lynching, all of the things right. Specific to attaching that with a form of repair or compensation. And so what happens when you have a governor? Another thing that's a part of the process is witness statements. We have the public giving, participating in public hearings, all of the things that includes community in the process, while also holding the government accountable. When the governor vetoed the bill, what ends up happening is he may be a champion of reparations. I'm not saying that he's anti reparations, but what happens is we lose that accountability on the part of the government because at any time they could say, well we have a budget deficit so we can't get to this part of it right now. Or this is how we view reparations. But it doesn't include the community hearings or input or witness statements or the direct research that's connected, connected to the different forms of compensation that could be had. So when we have a, when we have a bill and it becomes law, they are beholden to that law. They have to go forward with what I again would call a reparations accountability commission. They have to get the experts in the room, they have to get the public involved, they have to research the records of what the state of Maryland did. That's what this really is. And so after speaking with a number of my colleagues, my comrades, like Dr. Joanne Braxton of the Braxton Institute, who's also a Lakeland descendant, and Lakeland is a black community that was displaced, which is now College Park, Maryland, she was hoping that we could have some more conversations between the governor and the caucus and the community. There has to be something more to this because the commission is not an empty process. This is literally like having an ongoing investigation into what was human trafficking in a criminal enterprise. That is never really. We've never really delved fully into the scope of it with the state of Maryland, and we've never delved into the scope of it in terms of compensation for that.

[B]

When you say something more to it, what do you mean?

[C]

So, for example, there may be a reason the governor isn't advancing this. There's other things that he could have done. Like, for example, he's known that this bill was coming through the pipeline for years. This is not an over the night process. This took years to get here on the part of black Maryland legislators, allies in the community groups and advocacy groups that were pushing for this. Now other. What he could have done was just not signed it and it could have still went into law. But if he, if he did that, then the government would still be beholden to go through the process. So the veto indicates perhaps there's other pressures that we don't know about. Maybe he's afraid that we won't get federal funding if our state is going through with a reparations Commission. We're not 100% sure what is the real reason behind this. Because another thing, when he says that, well, we don't need a study, we need to just get to the work at hand. He's been the governor since 2023. Nothing was stopping him from doing anything then. It's only now that we are at. We're on the precipice of having this become law that now you want to say is slowing the process down. The process was never slowed down.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, you literally just answered the question I was gonna say because you quoted what he is saying, his reasoning for vetoing it or he said there are other things to prioritize and address other systems that create racial disparity within our state. But it's from everything that you have said, it's one this doesn't necessarily mean reparations are going to happen. It's just an advancement of understanding how this could continue to move forward. And I know that other states have had similar models like California, Illinois. And so I guess since you already answered that question that I was going to ask, I'm curious as to since this was modeled after similar measures in California and Illinois, how has that impacted other states to where this would benefit a Maryland?

[C]

Thank you for asking that question because that's a really that's part of what's happening in our conversations right now among reparations organizations and activists. So all of this is modeled really after HR40, which would be the federal legislation that would move us closer to reparations, the federal commission. But we see what we're dealing with in terms of our federal government right now. So activists are pushing for reparations in their local jurisdictions. And so we had California that had that amazing over 1000 page harms report. That's another thing that comes out of commissions is harms reports that helps to determine compensation. There's Illinois, there's New York. And what is happening right now is activists in other states have been pushing for their own commissions. And the governor's veto of that is actually giving the people that were against having those commissions some leeway to weasel their way out of it because they can now say, well, the nation's only black governor, he vetoed it and this is why. And we're going to do something, we can do something similar. And it's just another way for them to evade accountability. It's not. I don't think that our governor is insincere. He may be very sincere in what he's doing, but it's definitely giving those persons who are insincere the ability to try to dodge the process. Right now there are several other states and local jurisdictions and cities that are where they have activists on the ground pushing for commissions right now that are very scared and upset at what has happened in Maryland because it could impact the work that they're doing where they live.

[B]

Brass tacks. Is the governor lying?

[C]

You're asking me? Yeah, I don't think the governor is lying. I think the governor is figuring out a way to Evade accountability. That would. The type of accountability that would be by law. So if he doesn't go through with the commission and he says, well, I have my own forms of reparations, we're going to do racial wealth gap. He's going to. He's going to make a whole declaration on Juneteenth about closing the racial wealth gap. Okay. And he's already uplifted home ownership and businesses and all of that. Tomorrow, something could happen in this nation or something political could happen behind the scenes, and then he could change his mind on whatever initiative they're working on. And it wouldn't be illegal to do that because there's no entity or bill holding them accountable specific to reparations. So I don't think that the governor is lying per se. I think that we're not getting the whole truth. And I think that this is a way for him to be able to navigate this terrain according to. Works best. What works best for him politically?

[A]

Yeah, but let me ask. Sorry.

[B]

Okay, just real quick. Yeah, but to what end, though? I guess what I'm asking is there's. With these. With politicians, and I'm not asking you to get in his head, but I'm saying, is this a play for 2028? He is. We talked about that a little bit earlier. He's one of the bright shining stars in the Democratic Party who can make a presidential run. You mentioned that this could be about pressure from the Trump administration or the federal government if he goes through with this. There are others in Maryland that are gonna say that there's a budgetary concern here, that they simply can't afford this. But those weren't the answers that were given. The answers that were given was that it was actually less prudent to do another study and he's gonna do something or wants to do something or want to see something more actionable done about reparations. You're seemingly saying that that doesn't make a lot of sense because that's not the way it works. Is it possible that he's ignorant to the potency of or the utility of these studies? Or is there a possibility that he killed this knowing full well that this is needed in order to advance the case for reparations? And he made a very cogent and direct political decision.

[C]

That's a possibility. I was just talking to some other activists this morning that raised the 2028 question. Is this about a potential presidential run in the future and not wanting to be beholden to being the person that brought reparations to Maryland, because then maybe white Americans might not want to vote for.

[B]

They're going to ask you about it when you're running.

[A]

For sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So that is a part of the questioning right now. People are really trying to figure it out overall. And one of the organizations really pushing for reparations in Maryland is the National Black Justice Coalition. I just wanted to uplift them in their work. They put out an entire statement that detailed the reasons why we do need this study. We do need a commission. And again, this is not like something you just opening up old textbooks. This is about literally reparations, accountability. And without it, then we can't. We can't hold him accountable because it's not in the law. We could hold him accountable through our voices and through our protests and stuff like that. But if the bill is on the table and it becomes law, then they have to do the commission, they have to do the report. And the number one thing that is stated in the fiscal notes of the study of that bill was compensation. That's the number one thing. It's not slowing anything down. It's getting us further into the process. And I think that's what a lot of people that are anti reparations are afraid of. Because if that's the issue, you could have been did something. You could have been said, I'm working on reparations right now. In 2023, it's 2025. Nothing was slowing you down then and certainly not this study.

[A]

Yeah. I'm going to ask it a different way. So we won't say that. Is he lying? Because we don't know. But hearing you talk about. We don't know specifically, but hearing you talk about this bill and knowing that this has been worked on for years and years, I'm trying to find one negative aspect about this bill, like how does it negatively impact anyone? Is there a negative aspect to this bill?

[C]

Not that I can think of.

[A]

And that's why one that people would.

[C]

Raise, the one that some people might say is, oh, we don't have it in the budget and it's not.

[A]

And he didn't say that.

[C]

Yeah, they would say something like that. But Maryland, they have the capability to pay for a commission or a study. That's not something that would be stopped. And that wasn't one of the reasons he brought up, like you said.

[A]

Rachel, can I ask you this too? Let's just say he had not vetoed the bill and the bill is signed into law. How far away? And I don't even know if you can really Answer this from that bill to actual reparations. Like, is it. Would it be still be years in the process? Because I'm trying to think if he didn't veto it and it went through, how close are you to actually getting any type of reparation for people in Maryland?

[C]

I think it depends on the type of compensation and the type of repair. So, for example, if you look at California, when they finished theirs, they have not distributed any type of cash payments, but they've went into passing several other laws that are a part of the reparative justice process in terms of Maryland, the study was set to conclude in 2027. So then that's the two year process of basically a trial of crimes against humanity in Maryland. And then it would have a. A slew of recommendations for our legislators to then come up with all these new bills that they can then make into law that would be a part of reparations. So it could include education, it could include housing, it could include land back for black communities that were displaced. And again, those are things that you actually don't really have to wait for the commission to end on. So like for example, in California with Bruce's beach, they were able to return that land with or without that commission. So that again, the commission doesn't stop anything, but it helps to give this more robust point of view or understanding for the overall community to get repair, including speaking with economists that go in and study the amount of people that were enslaved in Maryland, the amount of people that were displaced by Jim Crow, the amount of people that were lynched and contacting families, getting witness statements, all of those things. So it really just depends. It depends on if it's attached to a health care initiative or education or housing. Some of those things are easier to pass in the legislature than others. Of course, the biggest, biggest question is when will people get cash payments? And that is something that a lot of people are interested in, because when we hear reparations, that's the big thing that people think. To be honest, we don't have a core answer on how long that would take because it depends on our legislature and it depends on the political climate at the time. But we can for sure say that there are forms of reparative justice that would move forward immediately following the conclusion of the study and commission, but also simultaneously, we could be working towards that as we continue to move forward as a state.

[B]

Let's move away from the governor for a second and more into the question of revelations themselves or itself in terms of what it means as a Theoretical political happening. Right. Three questions. I'm willing to repeat them, but these are the three questions that I always want reparations experts to answer for the audience.

[A]

Who.

[B]

How, why? Who gets the reparations, how these reparations are delivered to these people, in what forms? And then why is it such an important issue? And why is it such an important thing, something that you have put so much energy and time behind?

[C]

Sure. So who gets the reparations is determined by the harm. So there are three errors of harm that many activists include within the reparations movement. The first era of harm is the transatlantic slave trade and chattel slavery. So the who there would be descendants of Africans enslaved in the United States. The second era of harm is Jim Crow. Jim Crow is a continuation of vestige of chattel slavery and also a slew of discriminatory practices that would include descendants of Africans enslaved in the United States and some black immigrant groups that were here around the time of Jim Crow that might have also endured redlining or any other discriminatory laws that were passed at the time.

[B]

So I'll pause you right there real quick just to flesh that out. So in. So my understanding is that there would be some black immigrant groups, in your opinion, that would be entitled to reparations.

[C]

Reparations for Jim Crow. Yes.

[B]

Okay. Okay, cool. Okay, there you go. Okay, cool. Just wanted to. Because that's a big point. That's a big point of contention, I'm saying.

[C]

Yeah, I know, I know. It's a big contentious. It's a contentious conversation. But yes.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So for example, if there was a community that was displaced or had redlining and then local government decided to repair those communities, then usually that would be decided on proof of. What would you call it? Basically, that they lived there.

[B]

Right. Proof of residency.

[C]

So if they lived there and their home was taken away from them, whether or not they were a descendant of slavery in America at that time would not not be relevant to that Jim Crow question of if their home was taken away from them, they would be included in the overall black community who was displaced.

[B]

Gotcha. Okay.

[C]

Yes. And so then the third era of harm would be modern day systemic racism, where we are constantly impacted by the police state. And we have many different examples of that. We have the prison industrial complex and we have ongoing systemic racism that is also a vestige of chattel slavery and a vestige of Jim Crow. And that would impact the overall black community. So that would include everybody in that third era of harm that is harmed by this police state and modern day, systemic racism. And so those are the three eras of harm. And that is the who, right?

[B]

How.

[C]

That's a big question. And the how it really is determined on what communities want. So the how. So the number one how that people always talk about is a cash payment, which is definitely what a lot of us want, including myself. But then there's other forms that can take place. There's people that have talked about baby bonds, they've talked about free college education. All of these things are the different types of how additional health care support. All of those things are the how that usually goes through legislation that takes place either hopefully one day on the federal level and also on the local level and also through various community groups and organizations that are working to make this happen. So I want to highlight here that reparations can happen outside of the government, but the government also plays a pivotal role because the government was an aggressor, was the key aggressor here. Okay, the why One of the biggest anti reparations talking points is, well, that was hundreds of years ago, or you don't need to get paid for something that you never experienced. And reparations really are about the right now. It's about the past, the present and the future. Everything that happened to our ancestors impacts us today. The reason why we even have the racial wealth gap is because many of our ancestors never got paid for their labor. And then when they were freed, they were underpaid, or they didn't have the same access, or they weren't included in the GI Bill, or they didn't get a chance to get a higher education. So that impacts many of us today because a lot of times your income or your social class or your educational status is dependent on that of the parent. Well, somebody like my mama that comes from people who, where her grandparents were sharecroppers, you know, that could have an impact. I mean, luckily enough we were able to, you know, attain other forms of higher education. But for many people that was not the case. So the why is. And another part of it is epigenetic harm. So all of that harm that went through with chattel slavery, the killings, the lynchings, the sexual abuse, that's passed down through us as a form of epigenetics. It's in our blood, literally, according to scientific proof that we are impacted by all of those harms that took place. So we would require additional health care assistance because of those epigenetic harms. If it's impacting us today, what happened to our ancestors, what's impacting us is going to impact our kids and our future. The why is if we want a better America for all of us, then we need to get on board with reparations and reparatory justice initiatives so that we no longer have a society of the have and the have nots, or a society that is continuing to run based off of the vestiges of chattel slavery.

[A]

Last question for me. Do you feel like we're making real progress to achieving any of this, any sort of reparation?

[C]

We are. We definitely are. I want to uplift my comrade, Robin Ruth Simmons out of Evanston, Illinois. She was the older woman that helped to push for reparations in Evanston and they are getting cash payments as we speak in Evanston, I believe up to $10,000. It could be more per person or family depending on those that were displaced at that time or that experienced housing discrimination. The legislation that took place in California was very pivotal. The Task Force Harm Report was pivotal. They're already getting laws passed on the books in the state of New York. A lot of people don't realize that New York was a hub for international slavery, meaning that people that were enslaved in New York were human trafficked to other parts of the world. And so New York is very much complicit in the slave trade. And just having the task force and the commission there is leading us down a very good path for reparatory justice. I do understand and I empathize with the thoughts that the process is taking too long. I understand that. But we're actually moving at a far more accelerated pace than many people realize. If you juxtapose it to the centuries long movement that our ancestors have done to keep this movement alive, all the way from Cali House to Queen Mother Audley Moore, who was a member of the Republic of New Africa. This is a long standing struggle and movement and I just know that we are making major advancements. But I also pray that people really understand that a lot of work is going on behind the scenes and we are making progress. We are getting us closer, but it is going to take even more time because we are as black people up against empire that doesn't want to see us get anything, that doesn't want us. They didn't even expect us to be alive to survive that trauma and pain. And we did so out of pure spite. They fight us every step of the way. So no, it's not easy, but we're going to keep going.

[B]

Wow. Jessica, thank you so much for joining us on Higher Learning. Whenever we have questions about this stuff. We're going to come back to you, okay? Is that okay with you?

[C]

Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

[B]

No problem.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. There's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation. It's my Apple Card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple Card for your summer travels, apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of July 1, 2025. Terms and [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Prime. Prime delivery is fast. How fast are we talking? We're talking a cooler for your snacks, a folding chair, a Bluetooth speaker, and a six pack of your favorite seltzer delivered by tomorrow. Fast. Oh yeah. Extra napkins, last minute guac bowls, backup phone chargers, even a replacement remote. Fast. I feel like I've ordered all of those things. We're talking everything you need for game day. Fast, fast. Free delivery. It's on prime legal Eagle time, Donnie. All right, Kid Cudi testified today in.

[C]

The Diddy trial in New York.

[B]

Emily Johnson questioned him. Some things were revealed during his testimony, including that he filed a police report for a break in after picking up Cassie, and that was because he found.

[C]

Out that Diddy was in his house.

[B]

Says he called the police after a break in. He said Capricorn Clark, one of Combs employees at the time, called him and said he does and said that they were at Kid Cudi's home. Combs and associate were at Kid Cudi's home. Um, Clark sounded very scared. Sounded like she was on the verge of tears. He met with Puff after, allegedly after his car was damaged. He said Sean Combs was just standing there staring out the window with his hands behind his back like a Marvel supervillain. Um, they discussed Kid Cudi's relationship with Cassidy. We discussed pretty much the whole story about how me and Cassie first started to date and what it was and how it ended. So he had to, I guess, ensure that he wasn't seeing Cassing anymore. To Puff, he said that he asked Combs about the car and that puff said, I don't know what you're talking about. They ran into each other again at the Sohouse in 2015. Combs was there with his daughter. He pulled Cudi to the side and apologized. He said, man, I just want to apologize for everything. And all that bullshit is what kid Cudi said. He apologized to him after that time.

[A]

I saw a kid Cuddy on Tuesday.

[B]

You saw him where?

[A]

Carbone.

[B]

You saw him at Car Bomb.

[A]

I said, carbone.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

I don't think I'm mad I said it now. That was quick. That was quick. That was quick. That was quick. Wow, that was quick. And I actually said, I was like, I wonder if he's testifying. Because before it was Tuesday night, I was like, I wonder if he's testifying.

[B]

So look, have you been following the trial very much?

[A]

I'm getting the. You know why. Okay. To be very honest with you, I'm pulling out because the headlines that are coming out right now, and I'm really reading the headlines from social. From social media, they are more about the salacious nature of the testimony. And I am really getting sick of people with their opinions on about what I kind of predicted, being disappointed about what they're hearing, pretending as if they understand because I don't even understand rico. And which is why we brought Yodid on to talk about it. And, you know, sex trafficking laws and on the federal level and people talking about how they're not proving their case and all of this that I've had to pull back because I am extremely frustrated that people are already trying to acquit Diddy, at least in the court of public opinion. So maybe I need to switch to just following the journalism part of it because what I'm seeing on social media is making me upset. And I'm not trying to say, well, yes, I am. I mean, I hope he is found guilty. But I just. The way people are villainizing Cassie is making me upset at. How can you be so dense?

[B]

Yeah. So I'm following on a couple of different places. I want to shout it out. Laura Larose is doing a great job covering the trial. Law and crime is doing a great job covering the trial. They have an in court reporter who then comes out and reports everything from law in crime. I think her name is Elizabeth. And then they also have AFI Patterson.

[A]

Someone said something I didn't agree with.

[B]

They have AFI Patterson who is doing a fantastic job. Who afi, AFI Patterson, the hometown girl, Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Known her for years and years and years. She's Doing a fantastic job covering stuff from the trial. Laura Coates is doing a good job, so I'm getting a lot. And Bruce Rivers, criminal lawyer, reacts. Bruce Rivers. I'm watching a lot of stuff from his channel, I think.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, he's.

[B]

He's. What.

[A]

What does he call himself on social media? Maybe he's not the one I'm thinking of.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know what you're talking about.

[A]

I guess I would lean away from the people because I said something. I was like, Lauren said something that I didn't agree with. She said something. I would rather listen to some of the other people, like AFI or Laura, who have a legal background, because too much opinion I'm hearing from other people, which is like, what I don't want to hear.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I'm not. Not to discredit, you know, like, we have Megan on here, and she's not a lawyer. So I'm not just crediting journalists who don't have legal background, but this is so complex that I'm more into that.

[B]

Well, that's why, for me, to your point, that's why it's important for me to get a full scope of it. I listen to what's being reported by some people. Then I listen to the actual transcripts coming from the people at Long Crime who are doing a great job at Lawn Crime and just giving you what was said in the courtroom. Then you get a reaction video from a lawyer, a reaction video from a reporter, and then you start to kind of get a feeling of what people are saying and how people are looking at different things that are happening in the case.

[A]

And to be fair to what you're saying, a jury doesn't. Most people. I don't know if a lawyer's on that jury, but more likely than not that there's a lawyer. And they are swayed by their emotions and feelings, certainly, even though they say that they are not, they are.

[B]

So that's why sometimes that's important. To your point, you listen to the reporters and stuff like that, because if they are laypeople, you might get a different sense of how the evidence in the courtroom is affected, being interpreted by them. Fantastic. You know what? So this seems to be, when you look at it, and we've talked about it, Yodi talked about it, they have to prove the prostitution across state lines, the interstate travel stuff. They have to prove the sex trafficking stuff. They also have to prove the RICO stuff. It seems like some of Cudi's testimony goes directly to proving the RICO stuff because the organized crime portion of this. Because if you have puff engaging in aggressive and potentially murderous assaults on people, and you have behind puff or organization of people that are helping him doing that and then helping him in covering that up, that goes to prove the government's RICO case. As far as that goes. You bring Kid Cudi in, it's probably a good idea for the prosecution for Kid Cudi to be able to prove just how deep this goes or attest to just how deep this goes. This is more than organizing sex parties. This is more than organizing prostitution. For a guy to come from Florida to Vegas or New York or Atlanta or la. This is actually getting to the point of real deal hits being put out on people and actual violence. And just by wandering into this world, you put yourself in danger, particularly from this guy who they are painting like he was a mob boss. And that's what they're pretty much saying about Diddy. You know what? I'm interested in him. I've already seen some social media accounts online calling Kid Cudi a snitch. I'm interested in how hip hop reacts to Kid Cudi, like, being on the stand. I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm definitely not street of hip hop at all. Because if you try to blow up my car or harm me and then I get subpoenaed, I'm gonna be on there. I'm gonna be like, he did it.

[A]

Or how about the fact that he is clearly doing this as well on behalf of victims like Cassie? Right, right. Are you more about holding on to the street code or to the rap game code or whatever it may be? Yeah, I just made that up. Or bro code or whatever it is. Are you more about that than you are about. I'm gonna take this stand. I'm gonna tell my story in order to. On behalf of these women who were victims of him. I'm gonna look him in the eye. I'm gonna testify that they obviously called me. I'm gonna do this. I just. To me, that's what keeps getting lost. And that's where I get upset when I see people who are looking past the victims in order to so badly prove that Diddy. They're not saying, Diddy's not some sort of monster. They're just like, diddy is not guilty. And they're so eager to see that kind of come out, that verdict come out than they are about the women who suffered. And so I commend Kid Cudi for being brave enough to take the stand. And what I look at it as Speaking out on behalf of people who have been, if impacted in the, in the worst ways by Diddy.

[B]

The government has a very specific case to prove. They must prove their RICO case. They must prove their sex trafficking case. Some would argue that the transportation across state lines for the purposes of prostitution has already actually been proven. Some would argue that in those three troughs that they've already filled one and that comes I think with like 10 years or something. Some would argue that they've already proven from testimony from sex workers which they all their identities were released, which is crazy. Interesting that the government's already proved that that what's yet to be proven is the sex trafficking. Well, some would say that they're getting there on the sex trafficking, which is of course the force, fraud or coercion. That part of it would have. You would need to lean on Dawn Rashard's testimony and Cassie's testimony. Cassie testifying that she was living in a really violent situation and that a lot of these things she felt like she had to do after a certain point because either Diddy was going to release a sex tape on her, which her mom testified that she actually took out a loan on her home to pay Diddy $20,000 to not release a sex tape on Cassie. And by the way, this will let you guys know there were nudes of Cassie that leaked back in the day.

[A]

I vaguely remember that there were nudes.

[B]

Of Cassie that leaked and people were wondering where these nudes leaked from. They had thoughts that maybe it was an ex from back in her life that had leaked the nudes. Now you have to wonder whether or not those were used as leverage. Not saying that they were as leverage to keep her in line in some way. Right. But there were naked pictures of Cassie that did in fact get leaked to the public. Now, I don't know where that came from, but you know, she's seen that, she's seen the response. You got to know, maybe she felt like she couldn't go anywhere. So that's gonna be a part of the trafficking situation. If she's doing this by force, fraud or coercion. You also have to wonder whether or not the government is going to produce more witnesses that are going to talk about the fact that they maybe felt like they had to participate in these freak offs because of force, fraud or coercion that goes to the trafficking. And you gotta think that if you get them on the trafficking, then the RICO stuff to cover up the trafficking or to facilitate it is probably gonna be, you know, hand in hand in that situation. So just depends on the way you look at it. But for a lot of people, what Rachel was saying earlier makes sense. But look, if you really wanna know kind of what's going on, you don't have to spend a lot. Well, it's my job, so I have to be on here, like, you know. You know, I know y' all gotta go to take your kids to Little League and stuff like that, so you don't have time to be in this. But there are a lot of different sources that you can listen to to kind of get a sense of how people are feeling about it. You know, if you're listening to the one person on social media or two people on social media, a couple of different places, diversify, go. I would say do that about everything. Boom. This is you. You're out there. You're looking for information. You're trying to get information on politics. Bam. You go to the Nation, right? Then you go to Zateo. Boom. Then you go to maybe a Sam Cedar. Bam. Then maybe. Maybe you want to see what the devil thinks about it. You go to a Fox News. Bam. It's all popping on you. Boom. Boom. You're nimble. Going all over. Y' all just hear my underarms clapping.

[C]

I thought you hit the microphone.

[B]

No. Y' all hear my underarms clapping.

[A]

See that Bradley's up. You can see his little head popping in the corner. We said feed. He got activated, too.

[B]

Y' all hear that clap, though? That was real. I told you how I heard. Donnie, did you hear the clap? I didn't, but we'll see. We'll run it back. There was. I heard it.

[A]

If not Donnie, you know what to do?

[B]

Yeah, enhance it. I'm losing weight, but I'm losing weight. But I'm telling y', all, man, I just need £15 and I'm good. Just 15 and I'm back to me. And then another 10 after that and I'm good. I'm almost there. God damn it. We have to make a stark turn, but we have to discuss this. We have to talk about this, Donnie. All right.

[C]

Tom Fletcher, the UN's Under Secretary General.

[B]

For Humanitarian affairs, he said this about.

[C]

Aid efforts being stalled in Gaza during an interview with the BBC.

[B]

Now, let me describe what is on those trucks. This is baby food, baby nutrition. There are 14,000 babies that will die in the next 48 hours unless we can reach them. This is not food that Hamas are going to steal. We run the risk of looting. We run the risks of being hit. As part of the Israeli military offensive. We run all sorts of risks trying to get that baby food through to those mothers who cannot feed their children right now because they're malnourished.

[A]

14,000 babies in 48 hours is an extraordinary figure.

[B]

It's chilling. It's utterly chilling. But this is what we do. We keep going. It will be frustrating, we will be impeded, we will run huge risks. But I don't see a better idea than getting that baby food in to those moms who at the moment cannot feed their own kids. There's two things happening right now. There's an immense humanitarian disaster that's going on with the ability to get aid into Gaza right now to feed people. You have that. Then you also have intensive, nonstop shelling that's still going on.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There things that are happening that were happening at the beginning of this war, this genocide that people weren't. Not weren't talking about. There was talk about whether or not a hospital was being hit or whether or not this place was being hit or whether or not this was being hit. All of that pretext and all of that sort of cloudiness about whether or not that type of stuff is happening is pretty much gone now. Now what you have is to me, a stark and bone chilling, bone chilling culling of people that's happening in Gaza. You couple that with the Trump administration outwardly saying. Outwardly saying in plain English language that they want to move up to 1 million people out of Gaza into someplace else. There's no real plan to do that. And really, to be honest with you, fuck the plan. You are not. You're making people leave their homeland. You're ethnically cleansing people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Out of a place where they live. The thought of us saying that and supporting that loudly and proudly, it shows you the dire situation that the Gazans are in right now.

[A]

Well, it's almost as if when the Trump administration says it like that, they're literally making it seem like. Which it's still a problem. Right. Even if I, what I'm about to say, I'm not saying it. They're trying to make it seem like it's like, oh, well, it's, you know, it's not worth being there anymore. We're just gonna.

[B]

No, that's not what they're trying to make it seem like. That's what he said.

[A]

No, no, I'm saying like, they're like, we're just moving them over here. Right. But you have to think about the way in which they're doing it, which is what they're not getting into. Right. They're leveling buildings. So they're making it completely, not just take the bombing out of it, they're leveling things to where people can't even go back and rebuild, making it unlivable. Then you have what you just. What was just reported about the aid. Washington Post has a report that aid trucks have not. Are entering, are entering Gaza for the first time in 80 days. We're getting this report from the UN that says 14,000 babies will die if they don't get aid in 48 hours. How do we even get to that point? Cause trucks haven't been there in 80 days. You're actively trying to not just move, eliminate these people and the future. 14,000 babies. It goes towards the ethnic cleansing of what you're talking about. It's beyond disturbing what's happening over there. And you know, the criminal, it's absolutely criminal. Even the leveling of buildings is not like, is criminal. And IDF is saying that they don't condone it. But even that is not a part. Like that's a war crime as well. Well, but when you, when you talk about. I mean, this is making headline because it's headlines, because obviously this has been going on, right? They haven't received aid in 80 days, but it's making bigger headlines because you're talking about babies. But how do you justify that? Just like Tom Fletcher was saying, you can't even blame this on Hamas, right? Because that's the bit of thing. Well, Hamas is going to take it. Hamas is stealing it. Hamas is hiding there. This is why this, this is why this happened. Hamas does not want what is on these trucks. And you're still denying babies a future, a life in the name of what? Total victory, to quote Netanyahu, total victory, which means total elimination, ethnic cleansing, moving them out, genocide. That's exactly what's happening. There's no way to look at this other than that. Not that any of it's been justified, but you absolutely can't justify this.

[B]

So let's talk about this as plainly as we can. You know, none of the issues in this area of the world are new. None of them are. If you've taken the time to go into what's been happening there, what's been happening in Israel, in Palestine, in the west bank and Gaza since really the first aliyah in the late 1800s, then you know that there's been contention about who belongs there, whose land it is, how the land was going to be divvied up, and who had that Whose ancestral home that land is. We always talk about how complicated it is. And the more you read about it and the more you study about it, you see that while it's complicated, it's also quaint and simple. It's the same thing that people have been fighting for since people invented weapons to fight. They've been fighting about who's supposed to get what, how and why. It's no different than the American Civil War and what you think you should have and who you think should suffer for what it is that you have. It's no different than any of the great skirmishes in history in that you think something belongs to you by right or by decree and what you're willing to do to either stay where you are or move somebody from where they are. Now, look, I have my own thoughts about all of that. I have my own thoughts about what it means to displace somebody. I have my own thoughts about what it means to be a person living in a place where your humanhood is dictated to you by someone else. If people are wondering why it's difficult sometimes for some black Americans to just not care about stuff like this, it's because you live in a place where you kind of get told how much of a person you are. And any rights that are granted to you, those rights are granted to you. They're not rights that you assert. They're not rights that anybody fights for you to have. You're a person, and you're this and you're that because some powerful person allows you to be that. And even that feeling, the feeling. The feeling of that is debasing. It's inhumane. And so when you see somebody else going through that, living in a situation where they're seemingly controlled, you go, not right. I can't understand it. I don't get it. But the complication is this, for me and for a lot of other people is you share your community with a lot of Jewish people. And the plight, at least for me, of black people in America, particularly in the past, there's always been people that you could turn to when you look in your history books to help you. And those people were Jewish people. And a lot of the Jewish people in your life that you talk to and you have a lot of respect for and you have a lot of communications with. They seem so sure on this issue. They seem so sure. Right.

[A]

When you say so sure, are you saying that they agree with the means?

[B]

No. Well, what I mean is a lot of them seem. I mean exactly what I'm saying. They seem so sure about. They seem so sure that Israel is incapable of doing anything that is abhorrent. They seem so sure.

[A]

So they agree with the means.

[B]

Yeah. That Israel is right. That Israel is. And having the conversation about this is straining to a lot of people that you care about and a lot of people that you're with because they look at you as an anti Semite. And if you are black, you don't want to be put in a situation where you're an anti anything. Like, if you're a person that believes in freedom and justice and equality and equity in the world, you just don't want to be put in a place where someone is able to say there's a blind spot that you have. And that blind spot is going to result in things like October 7th. That blind spot is going to result in things like the Holocaust. That blind spot is going to result in things like the killing and minimizing of Jewish people everywhere. You don't want to be told that when you're talking. When I'm talking to my Muslim friends, my friends who. I was at a beautiful dinner, me and Tommy. Tommy ended up taking me to like an Eid dinner. We went to like an eat dinner and a party after that. I was listening to these people, amazing, beautiful, brilliant people, talk about their feelings and how they feel in the world now. And these are like just unbelievably accomplished, smart, high up. Like, these are people who have skin in the game and they feel unsafe. They feel unsafe. They feel like they're walking around on pins and needles in the world. And they're talking about people that they know that are in this region of the world that they don't know when they're gonna see them again. They're talking about arranging to get people out of places. They're talking about making like, making arrangements to get people from here to here and to move people from this to this and who's gonna take them, where they're gonna go and all of this stuff. And I've devoted brain power to it to try to understand what type of solution could exist. And you do that because you think that there has to be a solution. You think that there has to be a way out of this. And that's arrogant, right? Cause I don't know a way out of it. I don't know how to have conversations with people that you don't want to offend or have conversations with people that you don't want, that you want to be compassionate to and be right all the time.

[A]

You Can't.

[B]

But I will say this. If you can't be pro Israel, you can't be pro Palestine. Can you find it in your heart to be pro children like? And I don't mean to, but I'm serious. Can you find it in your heart to be pro Smiles to be pro. Laughter. Innocence to be pro. Innocence to be pro. Can you find it in your heart to be pro children like? Can you find it in you to be pro doll. Pro food. Can you find it in your heart to be like pro kid? I get it. I understand it. I know that there are so many people that are completely hardened to an ounce of humanity that would exist in Gaza. I know that there are so many people that October 7th was a red line. And they now, in their heart of hearts, really want to go in there and kill and move everybody out. There are people like that. There are people that the horror that they saw, it was too much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But 14,000 babies. We're talking about food, we're talking about water, we're talking about, like, just. I know some of you and I know this isn't who you are. Like, I know this isn't who you are. I know that there's no way you can turn around and act like you're not looking at this and act like you're not seeing this. And by the way, there are conflicts everywhere. And we could be talking about any other conflict that's in the world where things are happening. We're talking about this one right now. We're talking about this one right now. For whatever reason, we're talking about this one right now. So if we're going to be people, if we're going to be human beings, let's just decide to start today. That's as good as I can do. That's as good as I can do. Nicolas Cage in the N word.

[A]

We got him. Yeah. I cannot do the brief. We cannot do the Justice Department. I can't. I was like, please. If you went into it, I was.

[B]

Gonna be like, please, Please.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

All right, let's talk about it. A supporting actor in the upcoming film Madden reportedly quit the movie after director.

[C]

David O. Russell allegedly used the N word on set.

[B]

The actor, whose name has not been disclosed, walked away from the film two weeks into production due to alleged racism and a full frontal nudity scene that he was uncomfortable with. Have you guys seen this report on the Mad Movie starring Christian Bale and Nicolas Cage?

[A]

You have any backstory? You have any insight, any intel?

[B]

I don't have any intel like five members of the cast and crew shared that Russell was working with the actor on an impromptu monologue when he allegedly said the slur that upset the actor and others on set, prompting him to walk off before lunch and rap for the day. First of all, if you know anything about David O. Russell. Have you seen some of the old David O. Russell videos on a set of Aha. Hugs?

[A]

On the set of what?

[B]

I Heart Huckabees?

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Damn. You haven't seen this, Donny.

[A]

But I'm looking at some of the movies he's done.

[B]

You don't know David O. Russell movies?

[A]

He's good, no? Yeah. As a cinephile, I don't think. Who's the director? That's the movie. I just watched the movie.

[B]

Oh, wow. Interesting.

[A]

But yes. American Hustle, Silver Linings.

[B]

Donnie, bring up David O. Russell versus Lily Tomlinson. No. Play, play. Play it for Rachel right now. I love Lily. Tom, take a beat and appreciate it. You can put the thing down. You can put the folder down for a second. Use both hands.

[A]

Yeah, and take your legs off the desk. And a whole bunch of other stuff.

[B]

Says you gotta keep it because you can take your legs down.

[A]

Okay. For Christ's sake, let's just take it one line at a time. Instead of changing everything as we. It's very difficult. Difficult to even create what you're going to do when it's constant, a barrage of change this, change this, do this, do this. No, wait, wait. Do it a different way. Do it a different way. Don't get me started. Okay, so I'm just saying. Let's just, you know, it's impossible. One actor's doing one thing, another actor's doing another. And I'm not. I'm not as. I'm not as brilliant as you. I can't keep up with you. No, but we're being very patient, being very efficient. You're being impatient.

[B]

Watch.

[C]

Let's rehearse.

[A]

I couldn't understand you. So it's not the first time.

[B]

Okay, that's Lily. Now listen to this. You. I'm just trying to help you. Do you understand me? No, I'm being a collaborator. I was trying to help you figure out they fit a. Here to be yelled at. I worked on this thing for three years. Knock out some of the crew. When I'm trying to help you figure it out yourself.

[A]

Well, I have.

[B]

Yeah, yourself. Why don't you. Your home for your.

[A]

Why don't you. Your whole movie? Because that's what you're doing. So she was 65 when he was yelling at her. I wanted to see. I wanted to see how. Cuz she's 85 now. That was 20 years ago. Like, how old was she? If she was 25, it wouldn't have mattered, but wow. So we don't know if he said it, but more likely than not, he did.

[B]

The moment when I saw this, just knowing David O. Russell when I saw this, I was like, I wonder what kind of set this is. Because if David O. Russell, who's made a bunch of brilliant movies, right? If David O. Russell is the David O. Russell of the old days and he's yucking it up with these people dropping the N bombs, being dor, you know, dor. Feigning it. If he's feening.

[A]

What's dor?

[B]

David O. Russell. Oh, if he's feening, he might have thought that. He might have thought that he was fucking around with someone that was with the fiend, but they weren't. I.

[A]

So do you think the actor was black? Probably even worse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, okay.

[B]

Cause he also said he didn't want to be nude in a locker room scene. And David O. Russell. David O. Russell probably said, nigga, whip that dick out.

[A]

I mean, but here's what's even worse he probably did that part is.

[B]

But that's funny to me. Like that, that line that I just. That's. I'm a laugh at my own self.

[A]

That's probably what that dick on me, nigga.

[B]

That's probably what Dave Owens was saying.

[A]

No, he didn't say it. It was an impromptu monologue when he said it. So he was going back and forth and decided, you know what? This is a time when I get to say the word in public. Like, he needed to get he fiend. He needed to get that out of his. Out of his system and said, you know what, let's do an impromptu monologue so I can call you a nigga, which is how I'm feeling right now. Or maybe how he feels all the time. That's what it sounds like he was doing. He wanted. He found an excuse to get that out.

[B]

Have you ever been in a situation where a white person used the N word around you and you had to make a snap decision on whether or not you were going to take it there or not? Yeah, tell us about it.

[A]

Well, it was singing a song.

[B]

Oh, I've never been more interested in anything that's ever happened on the podcast.

[A]

Hold on, let me get the words right. No, I want the words right. All right, so we in the car. And they're like, ah, this is my song. This is my song. It's a group of us, right? I was trying to think of how she starts it off, because it starts off with the N word, but they didn't say it at first. It was like. We were just like, that's my type. That's my type. H. Big. Oo.

[B]

This is recent. Oh, 2019.

[A]

This is. I'm sure it's happened before, but I disagree distinctly. Remember it because it's somebody that I adore. And I was so. Because it was like, now wait a minute. Rich nigga, a figure that spot type. And I was like, did I just. No, no, no, no.

[C]

No way. No way.

[A]

Because I just didn't know they had it in them.

[B]

Yeah. Oh. So this is a person that. You wouldn't have seen the nigga in them. You wouldn't have seen the nigga word in there.

[A]

I wouldn't see it in any of my white friends. But we're all like, in the car, just. And I was like, wow. Not only did you just say it, you said it boldly. And I was like, nah, they didn't. Keeps going. That's my type. N. That's my type. You know you can't say that. Right, Right. I just. I was in the front seat. I wasn't even. I was listening. I turned around. You can say that. What do you mean? Turn down the music?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can't say that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm saying that as nicely. This is me talking. I'm trying to say this as nicely as I can, because if you say it a third time, I think I'm gonna lose my shit and you're gonna see a different side of me.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And so. But I was very nice about it, and I explained, like, it was really like, oh, we just saw Singing the song. And I'm like, oh, there was pushback. No, no, no, no. Not in. Like, I didn't realize it would have offended you kind of thing. Because I'm just singing the song, and it's like, let me explain to you why. So it was like that, But I was like, if I hear you say it a third time, I'm gonna lose it. Because I feel like I felt like I was being taunted for a second. I was like, are you fucking with me?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you taunting me? And they took it well. Never. I've been around them since where we're singing songs, and they don't say it, at least not in front of me.

[B]

So there was one time. Do you remember that video that came out with that teacher? And the teacher was going, nigga, you remember that?

[A]

Vaguely.

[B]

You remember that? Vaguely. Vaguely you remember what I'm talking about? Yeah. He's like, can a get a pencil? Can a get a pencil? Remember that? Donnie played it.

[A]

It's always funny when it doesn't happen to you, right?

[B]

Because he was, he was. He was trying to explain.

[A]

He's a white man.

[B]

How have you fucking not seen this? He was trying to explain to his. Okay, we gotta play for Rachel. So this is.

[A]

Now I gotta see it.

[B]

This is principal. There's this guy. He got in trouble for using the N word. He got in trouble for using the N word. And he went to bat for himself. And he was trying to explain.

[A]

Wait, I. Vaguely. No, you've seen this before.

[B]

You've seen this before because you was in college when they probably came up. He was trying to explain how the N word isn't the same all the time. And he's a teacher. So he was doing it, and he.

[A]

Said somebody else used the N word first.

[B]

He said his. Yeah, Donnie, play it real quick.

[C]

The teacher told him to sit down. And the teacher says that Keyshawn used the N word first.

[B]

And I just kind of was stunned a second. Well, then get away from the door, nigga. And I was just. I repeated the same insult because that's sort of what I've been trained to do.

[A]

The school district says that is kkk. What?

[B]

What? I just don't understand that.

[A]

Who trained you to do that?

[B]

Listen to where he explains.

[A]

It's the way he says, can you get away from the door, nigga?

[B]

So listen, listen to, Listen to him explain it. Listen, explain it. And I'm trying to understand it. I need help. Yes, I, I use nigga. I, I, I've used it. I admit it. I put the H on it to emphasize it's pictures that, you know this, please. You know, can you lend a. A pencil?

[A]

I only remember him being like, can you get away from the door? I do not remember him holding up the difference between nigger and nigga. I wanna find him.

[B]

As he says, I wanna find him.

[A]

He might not be with us anymore. He's pretty old. He's pretty old in this clip.

[B]

So we were at. We had this old place I used to work. Can a nigga get a pencil? Can a nigga get a pencil?

[A]

You know, they say it all the time. If that's the example.

[B]

We had this old place I used to work. This is pre tmz. Just before Y' all ask, it's Pre tmz. We at this place I used to work. And the video comes out during this time. And one of the producers goes. And he repeats it. And I look over at him, and I was like, hey, fucking the never again. And I said, I tear this whole fucking office up. Are you fucking playing with who you talking to? And everybody was every. It's so funny because they test the waters, right?

[A]

They do.

[B]

Everybody is so quiet, right? Everybody is so quiet. Like, what's wrong with Van? And I get mad at them. I was like, don't fucking look at me.

[A]

Like, I broke all y' all did.

[B]

Y' all heard that shit. And then it's gotta be a meeting. You gotta pull Van in the room. We gotta have a conversation. Talk. They pull us in the room. I'm in the room, and everybody's in the room. Like, van, we just want to have a conversation about. I'm like, fuck, I don't give a. No. Ain't no conversation. This is the conversation. You ever do that again, I'mma bring the nigga out. That's what's going to happen. I was like. I was like. It's like, if you ever do that again, I'm going to bring the nigga out. Like, yeah, no. No, we ain't doing that. No. Line drawn. Whatever happened, y' all need me to leave. Line drawn. Y' all need me to leave. That's it. No, we ain't playing around like that. We ain't playing. I remember for the rest of the day, it was so tense around there. Cause everybody was mad. They were mad at me. Everybody was mad at me that I ruined the fun. Cause everybody was listening to it. And even in a situation like that, I'm not gonna lie. So when that video's playing and everyone's laughing at it, I'm never comfortable.

[A]

I'm like, of course not.

[B]

I'm waiting. And then somebody did it. They testing the waters. Cause if you laugh with them about it, then it's a whole deal. Right?

[A]

Right, right. Then they start saying, really? And a skill. How clearly it wasn't. They said something wrong, but they turned it on you. Whenever it comes to the N word, somehow it's whether it's tears, whether it's. I didn't mean it. Ignorance. Somehow. They always make it seem like, I'm not the problem. You are for being offended by. It's a skill. That's the ignorance. That's what it means.

[B]

You know what? I just heard a clip recently. I want to get your opinion on this clip. Donnie, look up the clip of. I'm serious.

[A]

No, I got to send this.

[B]

Look at the clip of Patrice o' Neal and Louis ck, Right?

[A]

What did he do?

[B]

Patrice o' Neal is the greatest, but what do you do? But listen to how Patrice o' Neal takes this joke. All right? It's Patrice o' Neal and Louis CK they're talking about. Patrice o' Neal is explaining where the etymology of the K word as a Jewish insult comes from, and he explains it about why that happens. Cut that part out. Go past that. Listen to Louis C. Listen to the joke that Louis CK Makes, and tell me, Patrice o', Neal, who's one of my favorite comedians of all time, tell me if you could have taken this joke.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

There was some black guy being a nigger, so they called him a nigger. The circle. You have to play the whole thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I do know where the. Where the term kite came from, by the way.

[A]

Ah.

[B]

Derogatory term for Jewish people. I do know where that came from. Where it is. When that. When people used to come over on the. You know, in the ships on Ellis Island, a lot of people couldn't write English, so they used to make their mark. And the Jews mark was a circle, and the circle is called Kykal. So that's what they were just shorting it to. Kike. The guys coming in. Here's another kike. Once they seen the. The circle, you know, where came from originally, there was some black guy being a. So they called him a. So. So. So.

[A]

Well, one. It's not funny. It's not even funny to me because he's using the N word. It's just not funny.

[B]

Right. So it's the same way that Louis CK Then would go on to use the N word. Very famous clip in front of Chris Rock and the whole deal. Louis CK Was definitely probably around some people that did my. The question is, so you blew up on a friend. I blew up. I blew up, like, at my job. Like, at my job. At my job. I was like, no. And it ended up becoming a whole thing. Patrisse o', Neal, comedy legend, is probably around a lot of comics that push the issue. He takes the joke much better because.

[A]

Probably because he's a comedian, and that's because they give each other a lot of grace, because probably being less triggered.

[B]

By it is the thing.

[A]

No, because I'm not gonna give you permission. If you had not said a thing, you know what? You would have been. They would have said. They would have done the Same thing somewhere else. And they would have been like, well, I had this coworker van one time and he didn't have a problem with it. I'll be damned if you say that about me. Yeah, I'll have a problem every single time.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And I can not blow up at you, but I can turn down the radio and nicely say, don't do it again. Yeah, that's a warning. Yeah, but don't ever use me as an example.

[B]

How did it feel knowing that your friends is some nigga Sayers?

[A]

Well, I think I would have had a harder time if it wasn't the song. And I still don't want you saying it in a song, but I know a lot of them use that as an excuse of. Well, it's just in a song. I've just seen a song where rappers give them the freedom to be like, yeah, if I rap about it, yeah, you can say it back to me. So I know they think that there is some leeway in a song, and I'm here to tell you there's not.

[B]

All right, before we get out of here, I have to talk about this amazing video. Ok? I want to bring on an animal expert to break down this video. Now, you guys aren't. If you're.

[A]

If you're listening, I purposely didn't watch it.

[B]

If you're listening to me. If you're listening, you're not going to be able to understand what's happening. I am going to describe what's happening on video for you. And what I would like to do for our viewers is to get this video praying, use the N word towards a student.

[A]

I'm sorry, I'm sending people.

[B]

They gonna be like, what the fuck? You might as well send the. It's a mini mall video as well. And Afro Ninja, too. They gonna be like, are you. Have you been in. Are you in Van Winkle?

[A]

It's like, what happened to me in college? You know, my parents didn't let me watch the thing.

[B]

Yeah, you probably was.

[A]

And I was like, talking about, like, oh, y' all see that episode of Living Color? And they were like, yeah.

[B]

You walking around campus in 2007 going, let me tell you something. Like, doing Fire Marshal Bill. Like, you walking around, everybody's like, yo, what's wrong with this girl? Are you walking around like, y' all heard a handyman? And they like, yo, we moved past that shit. Like, don't bring that shit up again. So there's a video, right, of this dog. So they could be like, what the Is Rachel. So I've never seen anything like this before. So there's a video of these dogs fighting. Okay? They're fighting. They're. Whatever reason, they're being bad pups, all right? All of these dogs are fighting. And at. I'm going to say, all got their teeth out. All got their teeth out. At 11 seconds, the boss dog of the fucking world walks into this video. I have never seen any living being, forget about a fucking dog. I've never seen any living being with this type of fucking authority before. The dog walks into this situation. There is a gigantic cane corso to its right. The cane corso bows. The dog bows. Yeah, there is. To the dog's left, when you're looking at the video, a big German shepherd who's chilling. The German shepherd gets up and walks out as if to say, oh, shit, the motherfucking one is here. It's like, literally, the cane corso bows, gets down.

[A]

He does bow. He tips his head and everything.

[B]

And then the German shepherd is thinking, oh, my God, y' all done really fucked up now. Cause motherfucking whitey whitesaw is out in this motherfucker.

[A]

The dog's not even big.

[B]

Not big at all. The cane corso bows, and it's a cute, foofy little motherfucker. The puck walks over, gets on the dog, making the trouble.

[A]

All the other dogs scatter.

[B]

All the other dogs scatter. It then puts its paws. That's the part at 17 seconds on top of this dog, as if to say, shut the fuck up. Then after the dog nips and bites a couple of times at it, it puts its right paw on his throat and says, shut up. I said, shut the fuck up. The other dog behind him. I'm calling this dog Big G. The dog behind Big G goes back into its cage. Like, look, I've never seen anything like this before in my life. I've been around dogs my entire life. The whole video is 23 seconds long. Like, I've literally never seen anything like this before in my life. Like, I've been around shepherds, I've been around beagles. I've been around, like, all different types of pups. Walks out there, deads the whole situation. Cane corso bows. German shepherd walks away. Walks away. The other dogs go back into their cages. Look at this. And a trot. A trot. Everybody clears out.

[A]

Do you know what's crazy about the throat? The throat touch? It's not even just that he puts it. He slowly raises his paw in slow motion and then just taps it, like.

[B]

And Then just looks at him.

[A]

I said, enough.

[B]

I need an animal expert to come on the podcast and explain to me exact. I watched this video 150 times. I want, like, exactly what's going on here. Like, what. What the fuck is. Look at him. This Big G is a motherfucking man. Look at him bark. Don't bark at Big G. Look, put my hand on your throat. Shut the fuck up, bitch. Like, Donnie, are you as amazed by this video as I am? Yeah, I think I've watched it about as many times as you just said you did.

[A]

I can't take my eyes off of it.

[B]

There's a whole thread of more videos of this dog just doing authoritative shit. Just look it up. Alpha dog. There's alpha dog.

[C]

Threads like, this dog is this same dog.

[A]

I want to know what breed he is, where he's living. Like, is this doggy daycare? Is this a breeding ground? What is his name?

[B]

So we see. Just. Y' all pay attention to the video. It's at 11 seconds when he comes in. Doesn't even acknowledge the cane Corso. He looked like he got a couple people backing him up, too. Like, he comes in, cane corso bows. Other dogs clear out. He comes over there, and the dog gets right down on the ground and shows his belly. Right down on the ground at 16 seconds and shows his belly. And then at 17 seconds, he mounts the dog. Shut the fuck up. The dog bounce again. And then the last thing, the coldest thing, is at 21 seconds, he just very slightly puts his hand on his throat. I never seen anything like it.

[A]

Donnie's sending more. Oh, my gosh. He really is cute. Okay, I changed my mind. I'm looking at him in the face, the alpha male of the dog kingdom with the most insane aura.

[B]

I've never seen anything like it.

[A]

Often calm and deadly enough to control the environment.

[B]

I've never seen anything like it. I've seen dogs bark and bark and bark and bark, and then one, one back down. I've never seen anything like this before in my life. I want to know this. I'm so. I'm so into animals. I'm into two things. Animals and Feenin Feening and animals feening.

[A]

This week you'll change. You're about to go down a dark hole with all these videos.

[B]

Anyway, Brownie. Where's Brownie at?

[A]

Brownie's passed out back here.

[B]

Yeah, see, Boseman ain't like that. Brownie's Alpha Brody. Yeah, he kind of is, but Brownie's mean.

[A]

Brownie's Alpha Brownie's a mean.

[B]

For sure. Yeah, that is. It's.

[A]

I have seen Brownie. We were on a walk and, you know, like, you walk and you hear the other dogs come up. You could tell it's a big dog.

[B]

Right?

[A]

It was good, right?

[B]

It's not bad.

[A]

Comes up to the gate. Brownie sprints to the gate, but it's wooden. It's not like you can see the dog. The dog must have stood on his legs and pushed the gate. Hits Brownie in the face, right? Brownie keeps going at it, trying to fight. Brownie turns around to me, blood just all down. Brownie doesn't give a fuck. Brownie would lose his life.

[B]

That's too much. That's like Cujo or some shit like that. Well, Cujo's on the other side of the wall. We. Are we out of here? We gotta go. Once again, animal expert. Oh, a couple people I wanna have on the podcast. Coming up, Clay Kane from the SiriusXM show, the ladies from Decisions Decisions might be coming.

[A]

Horrible decisions.

[B]

It's Decisions.

[A]

That's right. Formerly known as.

[B]

Formerly known as. And then. And then I'll put it on here.

[A]

I want Jamal Roberts on the show.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I want.

[B]

Oh, yeah, you did say that.

[A]

I want the American Idol winner. Haven't watched it in years. Watched it. First black man to win since Ruben Stutter.

[C]

You remember him?

[B]

Yeah. America's velvet teddy bear.

[A]

Yeah. Well, now they're into the velvet voice.

[B]

Velvet what? You was about to say Velvet throat.

[A]

Oh, Velvet throat. Not damn, not dick.

[B]

Velvet throat is.

[A]

We're never gonna get him on now. Not ABC Disney.

[B]

You're saying Jamal is a velvet throat? He got velvet throat.

[A]

No, his voice is just. It's. You haven't heard anything like it. It's so reminiscent of, like, David Ruffin, Sam Cooke, Teddy P. Just all rapid, go, go, go. Let's do it. And from Mississippi, shout out to him, teacher. Three kids. Like, just like a really, like. It's a really great guy.

[B]

What if that's Preacher Boy?

[A]

From what? From Five Heartbeats.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Is that not his name?

[B]

I'm talking about sinners. It's a preacher boy from Mississippi. Maybe he's turned into a vampire. Hold on with the original.

[A]

The first preacher boy was Five Heartbeats. In all fairness. In all fairness. Thank you. Thank you so much. In a movie reference point for Rachel, I want to give a shout out to New York women in communications Imce their award show on. What day was that? Tuesday. Had the most fantastic time. Meeting so many wonderful people. Shout out to table 33. Love chatting with you guys. Thought warriors. I met so many thought warriors that were coming to talk to me. It's so nice when people want to talk about the podcast and not Bachelor, just like. Just Bachelor. They have more to say about it. So shout out to table 33. Shout out to the wonderful people that I met that listened to this podcast and shout out to New York women in communication.

[B]

I was actually going to see Thunderbolts again, and as I was watching Thunderbolts, a gentleman walked up to me and showed me his phone, and he was watching Higher Learning.

[A]

That's cool.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

That's cool.

[B]

We on our thing also went to.

[A]

Go see Kendrick and Sza last night.

[B]

You liked.

[A]

Was. Okay, can I explain myself?

[B]

All means.

[A]

I've probably seen Kendrick five or six times. I'm used to seeing. I've seen him open by. I've seen him do himself, do it by himself. I've seen him with Drake. I've seen him with Kanye. I've seen, like, I've seen Kendrick so many times. I did not. I was not aware of the setup. So it's not them as artists. It's the setup of the show. That wasn't for me. I thought Sza was gonna do her thing, then Kendrick was gonna do his. They're two different types of acts. It's not like on the Run tour, which I have been to. Beyonce and Jay Z are more compatible in what they bring to the stage. It was too up and down for me. Like, I'm watching. And it was actually more Sza than Kendrick, I would argue. And I'm more. No more Kendrick songs. Sza is enchanting. She's captivating. You know, you sit, you vibe to her music. So to do that and then you're coming off of like, Martin had a dream, Kendrick had a dream. Or turn that TV off. Turn that TV off. I might dun dun. It was too up and down for me, you know, so it was more of the setup. If I had known, it would have been different. So for all you go see the show, just know.

[B]

Go see the show. The show's already sold out everywhere.

[A]

Yeah. Just know that it's a back and forth. Like in the skits that they did in between were cool. It was like this deposition and like that intertwines, but I just wasn't prepared for that. So that's.

[B]

Are you a Sza fan?

[A]

I like Sza's music.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I know Kendricks more, you know, like I can say.

[B]

And you were going there to see kids.

[A]

I can say like, oh, that's Kill Bill. Oh, that's snooze. But I don't know the words, the lyrics. Like I do Kendricks stuff.

[B]

I think I'm going to the Toronto shows.

[A]

I know we talked about that. I think I'm not going to be here. I had invited myself.

[B]

Yeah, I think I'm going to Toronto shows and I can't wait to see it. Despite your lukewarm review, you know, not this show is.

[A]

I said I wasn't prepared for see. Now you're gonna go in prepared and you're gonna be like, okay.

[B]

I liked it anyway because I love to see black excellence on stage.

[A]

And they are. And they are. And they are.

[B]

Thank you to our guests. Take your teen kill us off but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathen Jr.

[A]

I'm Rachel and Lindsey. Bye.