L.A. Hip-Hop Culture With Nana, and Sydney Sweeney Speaks

Summary

Podcast Summary: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: L.A. Hip-Hop Culture with Nana, and Sydney Sweeney Speaks
Date: December 9, 2025
Producer: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Higher Learning" features Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay diving into a packed cultural conversation. The hosts kick off with their signature blend of banter and debate—touching on fame, chivalry, and changing social norms—before shifting to deeper segments. Key highlights include a nuanced discussion about Jason Derulo's comments on working with women post-MeToo, a rich, in-depth interview with LA rapper NaNa about the realities and perception of LA hip-hop, and a pointed analysis of Sydney Sweeney’s recent PR controversy. The episode closes with a fun, competitive revisit of “First Take” debates (Max Kellerman vs. Stephen A. Smith), dissecting sports, race, and media dynamics.

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Main Discussion Points and Insights

1. Who’s More Famous: Michael Jackson or Mickey Mouse?

• [00:13-02:19]
  • Hosts debate universal fame, with Rachel choosing Mickey Mouse for his enduring, global Disney ties, despite her love for Michael Jackson.
  • “Mickey’s been famous longer… a figure with Disney ties will never lose its steam.” — Rachel Lindsay [00:48]
  • Van notes the fascinating proximity of Michael’s fame to a character like Mickey Mouse, raising questions about the nature of iconic celebrity.

2. Is Chivalry Outdated?

• [03:28-11:36]
  • Van quizzes Rachel on whether traditionally “gentlemanly” acts (like helping women park, or complimenting from a car) still fly in 2025.
  • Both agree that genuine, non-creepy compliments and help can still be well-received, with nuance about context and intention.
    • “If we live in a society where it’s problematic to compliment a woman…we have real problems.” — Rachel Lindsay [08:51]
  • Amusing moment: Van compliments Rachel’s “forehead,” leading to playful teasing and a backhanded-compliment debate.
    • “You walked out into the world today mind first. And I like that.” — Van Lathan [09:51]
    • Rachel (deadpans): “Who tells anybody they step into the world mind first?” [10:07]
  • They muse on the evolving bar for male-female social conduct, especially given rising concerns about boundaries.

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3. Jason Derulo’s Controversial Work Stance

• [12:57-24:16]
  • Discussion of Derulo’s vow to not be alone with women he works with after facing (later-dismissed) harassment lawsuits.
    • “Never work with women… there’s truth in every joke, but it’s a sad truth.” — NaNa quoting Derulo [13:17]
  • Rachel empathizes with Derulo taking personal precautions after his legal ordeal, but stresses context: “I think that makes sense…he’s making it particular to his situation.” [15:27]
  • Van argues that blanket policies (“never work with women”) are destructive, noting broader implications for workplace gender equity:
    • “That attitude is contagious… now women have to jump through hoops to collaborate.” [21:42]
  • Both agree precautions like cameras or witnesses are reasonable, but the trend is worrying if it spreads across industries.

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4. LA Hip-Hop Culture Deep Dive: Interview with NaNa

LA Identity & Culture

• [25:16-30:50]
  • NaNa embraces “LA rapper” as a badge, explaining the pride and identity of being from South Central LA.
    • “It’s like a franchise… there’s a lot that comes with being from LA.” — NaNa [26:25]
  • Addresses misconceptions: True LA culture is south of the 10 Freeway, not Hollywood/Santa Monica.
    • “If you’ve never traveled past the 10, don’t say you hate LA.” [28:03]
  • Rachel admits LA feels “closed off” to newcomers, especially during COVID years. NaNa stresses connections matter for feeling the city’s heart.

On Belief, Industry Pressures, and the Internet

• [29:49-49:52]
  • NaNa is big on self-belief, especially navigating an industry where label pushes and TikTok virality can overshadow true talent.
    • “Believing in myself is what got me here… so many things can strip you of your confidence.” [29:49]
  • Both hosts and NaNa discuss the “culture vs. audience” dilemma: talent often doesn’t match mainstream success. NaNa names artists who cultivate strong fanbases despite lack of huge industry backing (Freddie Gibbs, Killer Mike).
  • “How do you stay yourself when they want you to rap like somebody else?” — Van Lathan [31:42]
  • NaNa critiques the overexposure social media brings, arguing “the internet killed the superstar”—fans have too much access, eroding mystery and reverence.
    • “There’s certain things we shouldn’t see…there was more reverence when artists were less accessible.” [47:45]

Guests in the Culture

• [33:28-36:36]
  • Explores “guests” in hip-hop—non-Black participants’ place in Black culture, using Aiden Ross vs. Bootleg Kev as examples.
    • “Bootleg Kev is an ally—he understands his position in the space.” — NaNa [35:09]
  • Names Eminem and Mac Miller as guests that understood and respected hip-hop culture.

Street Ties and Regionality

• [37:58-49:52]
  • NaNa and Van explore whether LA rappers can succeed without street affiliations (yes, with caveats).
  • Discussion of why LA rappers (even stars) remain underrated, and how some LA music is viewed as too “regional” for mainstream appeal; NaNa says regional sounds used to strengthen music scenes.

Family, Upbringing, and Authenticity

• [39:19-44:44]
  • NaNa, a “PK” (preacher’s kid), describes his supportive Ghanaian parents and how he initially hid his rap passions but now embraces both faith and music as forms of ministry.
  • Shares a touching story about his music being played for Nipsey Hussle before Nipsey’s passing.

Playful “Homie” Prank

• [49:52-54:54]
  • Van jokes with NaNa, calling him a “lil nigga” in rap (relative to vets)—turning it into a staged (and convincing) confrontation. Rachel’s reaction (“I was mortified!”) adds comic relief and showcases their real-life chemistry.
    • “Why did you ask him that? …That’s so offensive.” — Rachel Lindsay [52:00, 101:22]
    • They debrief afterward, with NaNa commending the hosts for their platform and accountability.

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5. Sydney Sweeney PR Drama

• [55:59-64:28]
  • Sydney Sweeney responds to backlash over an American Eagle ad and perceptions of political alignment.
  • Rachel’s take: Sweeney’s initial dismissive attitude toward controversy (“You laughed and giggled… you were very cavalier”) [57:02] fueled further backlash. Her more recent, conciliatory statement is damage control after poor box office results.
    • “The biggest mistake she made is acting like she said, it doesn’t affect me. And then they said, oh just wait. And now it’s affecting her.” — Rachel Lindsay [63:59]
  • Van draws broader lessons about movie stardom and the dangers of being “divisive.”
    • “She’s become a divisive cultural figure…to be a movie star, most people have to agree on you.” [60:18]

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6. Max Kellerman vs. Stephen A. Smith: Revisiting Old First Take Debates

• [66:38-96:53]
  • As a meta-segment, Van and Rachel “score” legendary First Take debates, analyzing arguments on NBA drug policy, Black Lives Matter, LeBron vs. KD, and the infamous Terrell Owens “blacker than you” moment.
    • Notable quote: “He used to make Max look like Malcolm X on that bitch, bro.” — Van Lathan [93:00]
  • Rachel and Van offer behind-the-scenes insights from working with Stephen A. Smith, discussing his “company man” reputation and interpersonal dynamics (especially with women and Black colleagues).
  • They emphasize being cautious about who edits or counsels you in corporate settings (“Be careful who you let edit you. Be careful who you complain to.” — Van Lathan [74:12])
  • Both reminisce about the “old First Take,” its energy, and the double standards Black athletes face with commentators.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Michael vs. Mickey:

  • “A Mickey Mouse figure with the Disney ties will never lose its steam. It’ll never fade.” — Rachel Lindsay [00:48]

• On Compliments & Chivalry:

  • “If we live in a society where it’s problematic to compliment a woman, we have real problems.” — Rachel Lindsay [08:51]

• Jason Derulo’s Rule:

  • “He is now saying that he no longer wants to put himself in those situations. I would think that if I was accused of something that I am saying I did not do, I would want to protect myself…” — Rachel Lindsay [15:27]
  • “That attitude is contagious.” — Van Lathan [21:42]

• On LA Hip-Hop:

  • “It’s like Los Angeles Lakers… I wear very proudly, you know, South Central Los Angeles. Yes, sir. South of the 10 Freeway.” — NaNa [26:25]
  • “How do you stay yourself when they want you to rap like somebody else?” — Van Lathan [31:42]

• On Internet and Fame:

  • “There was more reverence, there was more respect when you didn’t see your favorite artist everywhere.” — NaNa [47:45]

• Van’s Forehead Compliment:

  • “You walked out into the world today mind first. And I like that.” — Van Lathan [09:51]
  • “Who tells anybody they step into the world mind first?” — Rachel Lindsay [10:07]

• On Sweeney:

  • “The biggest mistake she made is acting like she said, it doesn’t affect me. And then they said, oh just wait. And now it’s affecting her.” — Rachel Lindsay [63:59]

• On Speaking Up in Companies:

  • “Be careful who you let edit you. Be careful who you complain to.” — Van Lathan [74:12]

• On Stephen A./Max Dynamics:

  • “He used to make Max look like Malcolm X on that bitch, bro.” — Van Lathan [93:00]
  • “Max kind of wins because he knew to shut the up. Max said, go ahead.” — Rachel Lindsay [91:38] (Terrell Owens “blacker than you” moment)

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Important Timestamps

• Fame debate: [00:13–02:19]
• Chivalry and social norms: [03:28–11:36]
• Jason Derulo controversy: [12:57–24:16]
• Intro: NaNa, LA hip-hop: [25:16–49:52]
• Homie prank & debrief: [49:52–54:54; 101:22–103:28]
• Sydney Sweeney/American Eagle: [55:59–64:28]
• Stephen A./Max Kellerman old debates: [66:38–96:53]
• Meta workplace/corporate advice: [72:52–76:23]

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Tone and Style

The podcast maintains an energetic, authentic, and occasionally irreverent tone. Van and Rachel mix personal anecdotes, hot takes, social critique, and humor. Guest NaNa blends earnestness with cultural pride; the atmosphere is warm and conversational but also analytical, never shying away from honest debate or awkward questions.

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Closing Thoughts

This episode of "Higher Learning" is a masterclass in blending pop culture with cultural critique, moving effortlessly between lighthearted banter and serious discussion. The candid conversation with NaNa offers valuable insights into LA hip-hop’s inner workings and the evolving relationship between artists, audience, and authenticity. The hosts’ sharp takes on industry controversies and their behind-the-scenes sports media gossip make this a standout episode for fans of culture, sports, and hip-hop.

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For listeners who missed this episode, this summary captures both the key issues and the spirit of the conversation—serving up the best jokes, debates, and critical moments with the flavor and context intact.

Transcript

[Van Lathan]

Foreign.

Yo, yo, yo. Thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on. As I, Van Lathan Jr. And it's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[Van Lathan]

I have a question before we start.

This was a question that was asked and I wanted to know what you thought. Who's more famous? I say I have two questions. I'm gonna start with the first one. Who's more famous, Michael Jackson or Mickey Mouse? Ooh.

This was something. This was the topic of discussion at a party that I was at on Saturday.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I missed that conversation.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it was late into the night.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, well.

This is really hard.

[Van Lathan]

Who's more famous?

[Rachel Lindsay]

But Micah came first.

[Van Lathan]

I mean.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean. Sorry. Mickey came first.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So technically, Mickey's been famous longer, like. Cause the fame is equal. Right. Like, they're so equally known, obviously, for different reasons in their own right. But I'm gonna say Mickey because Mickey's been around longer because of Disney itself, because of its international presence. And that's hard for me because we know how I feel about Michael. And I'm not saying Michael doesn't have all these things, but I think a Mickey Mouse figure with the Disney ties will never lose its steam. It'll never fade.

[Van Lathan]

So I think it's Mickey. Okay. All right. But they were people that were making. There were people there that night making impassionate, direct arguments that it's Michael. We were having a conversation.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I would love for it to be Michael. And I understand the passion.

[Van Lathan]

Donnie, who's more famous, Michael Jackson or Mickey Mouse?

[Donnie]

It's definitely Mickey. But I. I get somebody making the Michael argument, but it's Mickey.

[Van Lathan]

Isn't it interesting that Michael Jackson is close to Mickey Mouse in terms of fame? Is there anybody else? Is there another human being besides the Christ child? I was gonna say that is. That would be right there with Mickey Mouse. Is there anybody else?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, it's tough. No.

[Van Lathan]

Michael Jackson and Mickey Mouse. I want the audience to think about this. Who is more famous, Michael Jackson or Mickey Mouse? And answer your question.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And because that's the thing. This is why I get mad when people try to make Michael Jackson comparisons. You can't. There's nobody else. I don't like when people, like, try to compare talent or he's this generation's Michael Jackson. No, the point that you just made right there is why you can never have those arguments.

[Van Lathan]

You can compare it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He is Michael. He is Michael.

[Van Lathan]

You can compare it. So you don't have to compare Michael Jackson to somebody. You don't have to compare every aspect of Michael Jackson to someone. Just Because Michael Jackson, like, for example, Mickey Mouse is more famous than anybody else.

[NaNa]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

Is Mickey Mouse as funny as Bugs Bunny? No. So you can say just because. So I'm saying you can still compare Mickey Mouse to other people. You can compare Michael Jackson. So right now you can.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But it's silly. Why? You can.

[Van Lathan]

If I was to say that Luther Vandross sings better than Michael Jackson. It's just a fact. It's a comparison. It's a fact. Doesn't matter how famous he is. Avery Wilson sings better than Michael Jackson.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Fact.

[Van Lathan]

It's. That's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is different. Like when people are comparing them, they're trying to say, like, he's this. When you say he's this generation's Michael Jackson. Come on now.

[Van Lathan]

That's different than comparison.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's. Come on. Okay, fine. Semantics. You know what I mean when I say this? What's your second question?

[Van Lathan]

This is the second question. Okay, I want to have a quick five question four question run about whether or not it's still gentlemanly to do these things.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Whether it's gentlemanly.

[Van Lathan]

Is it gentlemanly, too? Because we're talking about the levels and the limits of chivalry. Okay. This is to you, Rachel Lindsay, woman about town.

The woman you are. That's put that under Rachel.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, do not.

[Van Lathan]

Rachel Lindsay, woman about town. You know. You know what's going on. Is it still gentlemanly to do these things? A. Help a woman back into a parking spot?

You see a woman backing into a.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Parking spot, like, standing behind her and directing her or getting actually behind the wheel.

[Van Lathan]

So not getting behind the wheel. Like, if my dad saw anyone, particularly a woman, backing into a parking spot, he'd be like, okay, come on. Come on. You got it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think that's sweet when anybody does that.

[Van Lathan]

So, yes, that's gentlemanly. Yeah. Calling a woman ma'. Am.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm from the south, so I'm always gonna be defer to that. That's a thumbs down. Yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Still, gentlemen, when you call a woman ma'.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Am. Yeah. And then people can correct you if they want. People say, man, I'm like, don't call me ma'.

[Van Lathan]

Am.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I get it. Cause I'm from the South. I understand the respect that comes with that.

[Van Lathan]

But it's a gentlemanly thing to do to call a woman ma'. Am.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sure.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. Compliment a random woman from your car. There's another.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. How are we doing it? Okay, is it a yellow? Is it a cat call, or is it a key? Roll down your window for a Second, I just wanted to tell you that.

[Van Lathan]

I think this is what men in my family, I used to see them do. Shout out to my uncle Craig. Uncle Craig, I'm not trying to get you actually. Nah, Shout out to my uncle Craig, I'm not trying to get you in trouble. I just. My uncle Craig would see a woman and he would be like, wow, that's a nice car. It's like I said, you look very nice. He would be, he would say something and you would see the woman. These are good looking men that raised me. You would see the woman smile and whatever.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, that, the way you just presented it. Beautiful.

[Van Lathan]

And my uncle Craig would be like, it's always important to be nice to girls. He's like, be nice to girls, son.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who could have a problem with that?

[Donnie]

Yes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's gentlemanly.

[Van Lathan]

All right. Some people say maybe not. Okay, let's wrap them. Helping a woman with her squat form.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We took a leap. We took a leap.

[Van Lathan]

Wait, I'm saying that is how are you helping me?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are you in? Because again, there's a difference. Are you instructing me and standing in front of me and saying, hey, you want to make sure you push out more, more from the butt. You want to like straighten your back? Like, is that what you're saying? Or are you behind me showing me?

[Van Lathan]

So I would just. This is what we do. We're gonna assume. Good. We're, we're gonna assume, we're gonna assume that this is all of this stuff is being done in the right way. Right? Because there's a way that you could compliment the one on the street. Nice ass, bitch. Just like the way one of the ladies.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I feel like you want to get that out?

[Van Lathan]

Nah, let me tell you why. Because one of the ladies working in Spotify said the funniest thing. She was like. Cuz I asked this question and she was like, really? The older I get, anything that a nice other man says to me, that isn't nice ass. I take it like, I, I.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Damn. The bar is low. The bar is low.

[Van Lathan]

Helping a woman with a squat form.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Gentlemen, it's a no.

[Van Lathan]

That's a no.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's a no.

[Van Lathan]

So if you see a woman working out and she's doing the squat in the wrong way, let her her back up. Because you could be looked at as a, as, as a non, As a creep. As a creep. I'm asking because I see guys do this and I'm like, God damn. He bold. One dude I saw in the gym, he was like, he was like, he literally Went, and this guy is a G. You guys ever see guys in the gym that are like super GS? Yeah. There's one guy in the G in the gym that when he squats, he also does, like, tactical training.

Like, he squats, and then between squats, I see him walking around in a squat next to the squat rack, going like this and then popping up and then going like this and snaking and doing things. I also see him between sets of squat, right? Like, getting off the ball. Like, he's like an offensive lineman.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't like that.

[Van Lathan]

But I saw him help somebody with his. With her squats. And he went, hi, can I just tell you one thing that might make that movement more efficient? And I was like, God damn, this nigga the man.

And I watched him, and he walked over and he grabbed the squat bar, and it was so light to him that he picked that bitch up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, what'd she look like?

[Van Lathan]

What you mean?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Was she pretty? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was trying. He was already looking at her. He was already looking at her. I don't. Wouldn't say it might be nice. It's okay. Polite, but it feels like there's an ulterior motive there. I don't think that's gentlemanly, but all the other stuff, yes, manners, being polite, complimenting each other. That's beautiful.

[Van Lathan]

But these are things. The reason why I put them is because, like, you could easily say, hey, is this still a gentleman? Like, playful woman's dinner and all of this stuff like that. Everybody's gonna say yes to that because it's. But these are all things that, at one point, it was customary to do for guys that were wanting to be gentlemen. That. Now, you could make the argument that some people look at this stuff as, like, patronizing. Man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

If we live in a society where it's to compliment a woman is looked at as problematic, we have real problems.

[Van Lathan]

Rachel. I don't know if you know, but we have real problems.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I know we have problems, but, like, I'm sorry. Like, that's ridiculous. I'm gonna take. If any man gives me a compliment, I take it, I receive it. I'm grateful for it. I'm not comfortable accepting compliments, but I will make sure that I acknowledge it because I really appreciate somebody saying something.

To acknowledge me. I'm sorry. I think that's a beautiful thing, and that's a personal issue. If you can't accept that, we're gonna.

[Van Lathan]

Help Rachel accept compliments better.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not good at accepting compliments. I Feel like you're not. Don't do it.

[Van Lathan]

Your forehead looks great today.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't believe you.

[Van Lathan]

It does.

Why?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's extra shiny.

[Van Lathan]

It's prominent and smooth.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I can't stand.

[Van Lathan]

It's ready for the world. You walked out into the world today mind first. And I like that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

See what I'm saying?

[Van Lathan]

What?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I might. I might have to take everything I said back. That was a backhanded compliment.

[Van Lathan]

It wasn't at all like if you told me that if you looked at me one day.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who tells anybody they step into the world mind first? Go ahead, laugh out loud. Bernard. Has anybody ever said you. You step into the world mind first?

[Van Lathan]

It's not a diss. That's not a diss. Like you like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It looks like I want to do a poll. It looks like what it looked. I got a lot on my mind. I got a lot to think about.

[Van Lathan]

That's not what I said. I said it looks like you're leading from the front.

[Rachel Lindsay]

See what I'm saying.

Now, luckily, I've heard them all.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Donnie]

Not at all.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I mean, gosh, this all leads into it. Those questions make me sa there. Other than the squats. That makes me sad.

[Van Lathan]

That happened because earlier today I saw a tweet from my man, me, we free on Twitter. And it was. He said, what kind of tattoos do you think a woman has if you see her backing into a parking spot? I was like, what an interesting question. But then my mind thought, if you see a lady backing into a parking spot. Yeah. And.

Is it still okay to be like, hey, straighten up. Cut the wheel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're good. You're good. Little tight right there. Cut the wheel. Cause I would see men do that all the time. Or does that look like you're telling her how to drive now?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, it is. You're. But you're. Yes, you're telling, but the intention is to help.

[NaNa]

Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So that's how I look at it. I'm just not a big person who's like, don't tell me what to do. That's just also not my mentality.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I do know people like that, women like that. I do. This week on scene, on the screen. Join me, Jacqueline Coley. As I sit down with award winning costume designer Paul Tazwell, the visionary behind the stunning looks of Wicked and Wicked for good, we take a closer look at two of the iconic costumes from Glinda and Elphaba. The subtle details you may have missed, and the Broadway shows that inspired Paul's love of costuming. Step behind the scenes of Wicked for good and tune into Seen on the screen screen Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Van Lathan]

This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. The Hyundai getaway sales event is on now with awesome deals on most of their popular models, including adventure ready SUVs like the Hyundai Santa Fe and Santa Fe Hybrid. There's also the stylish Elantra, packed with the latest tech. Or go electric with the Ioniq 5 or Ioniq 6. Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. Offers in January 5, 2026. Should we put Jason Derulo in the show at the last minute or. No, we don't have to.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She just. Just walked him in.

[Van Lathan]

I know. I just think that's interesting.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why is this interesting to you? Because to me, this is a particular.

Thing related to him, so I understand his reaction to it.

[Van Lathan]

Donnie, play the Jason Derulo clip real quick. He was on with Grant Bessinger. There was a lawsuit not too long ago by an artist that was, like, hired to your label that was dismissed twice. What did you learn going through that?

[NaNa]

Never work with women.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, come on.

[NaNa]

There's truth in every joke, but it's a sad truth. Like, I will never be alone in a room with a woman that I work with, like, ever, ever again.

[Van Lathan]

Why?

[NaNa]

It's too risky.

That case was dismissed twice in two different.

States.

And there's hardly no mention of it online.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so Jason Derulo was.

Accused of harassment by. There was a group that. I don't know if you remember them, but there was a group called Sarati.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, it was one of them.

[Van Lathan]

It was one of those ladies. Yeah, it was a group called Serati. So there were three of them. They were sisters.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

He had them on my old podcast.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, all three. No, because I know the third one kind of went off, disappeared. They were.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I think two of the ladies ended up going. The three sisters.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

The first one left.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

And then there was another one that left and she, like, moved to another country.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There was, like, drama behind it. Like, they were, like, trying to find her, like, concerned about her. I remember this.

[Van Lathan]

But the one of them is Imanza Delon. Okay, the sister's name. I make sure I say her name. Okay. And she.

Has sued Jason Derulo for sexual harassment a couple of times.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

And so in response to this, Jason Derulo says that he would never work with. He says, don't work with women. And then he said he would never be in a Room with a woman. You heard what he said. Your thoughts on that?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think that he's saying something that's particular to him. So this is why, like, I didn't really think as much or take the. I guess, take it to heart or think too long on what it was that he was saying. Because he says that he was sued not once, but twice by this individual.

[Van Lathan]

It was.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It was like the lawsuit was dropped.

[Van Lathan]

She dismissed twice. And I think that it's been refiled. I read somewhere I can't. I read somewhere it's been refiled after this interview.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And this isn't me taking. I haven't read the lawsuit. I'm not familiar with all the accusations. But he is maintaining his innocence. I'm not choosing a side either way. But if he believes that he's innocent and that's what he's standing by and he's saying it's been dismissed twice, and he's. I guess he's saying that he put himself in a situation where he was alone with her, which gave the freedom, I guess, for her to accuse him of certain things. He is now saying that he no longer wants to put himself in those situations. I would think that if I was accused of something that I am saying I did not do, I would wanna protect myself from being in that situation again. You know, if Jason Derulo was saying, hey, none of you guys should work with women, and this is why, because this happened to me, I would have a completely different opinion. But he's making it particular to his sit. That this happened to me. I lost a lot of money in legal fees. The allegations are not true. And I do not want to go through this again. I think that that makes sense.

[Van Lathan]

Okay? So it says here, days after this interview was recorded, which was recorded some time ago.

The sexual harassment suit was refiled. This is from a couple of months ago. This is coming out now because the interview was recorded a couple of months ago, but the case has been refiled after the. The. The. The interview took place. So not recently now, but recently as it relates to the interviews refiled in New York. I don't like this, okay? And it's not that I don't like it, because I don't understand it. It's not. That's not the reason why. I do get it. I go, look, why put yourself in a position if you're Jason Derulo, you're thinking, the way to insulate myself from this is to not put myself in a position where this could happen to me again. And that's A good rule of thumb for a lot of things in life, right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yep.

[Van Lathan]

Except in interpersonal relationships, both public private work and non work. That's the only time, like if you, if there's a certain party that you go to, like what happened with the family and the games. Your dad was like, no more going to the games cause they shooting. Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

See, you just wanted to put that in there. Cause you didn't feel people paid attention to it enough in the last episode.

[Van Lathan]

So what I'm saying is this. If there's a certain place that you hang out and you go there to hang out and you're like, this is not the place I should be hanging out. I get it. If there's a certain.

I don't know, a type of way that you move. I don't want to put myself in this position anymore. Certain activity or whatever, people are different to me. It's always important to.

Self analyze when it comes to interpersonal relationships. Right. Like Jason Derulo saying I'll never work with a woman again obviously is honestly, should I say it's pretty destructive. It's pretty destructive because oh, I'll never be, I'll never work with women. Or then saying I'll never be alone with the woman. Okay. So then there's a woman that wants to record or something like that with Jason Derulo. Now Jason Derulo has to get somebody else to be in the room. Yeah. And if he can't get somebody else to be in the room, if that's not available, then Jason Derulo doesn't do it. Now Jason Derulo has to say, now what he has to do now is whenever he works with a woman, there has to have to be extra steps that are taken to make sure that he's protected. Whether or not he knows it or not. That makes it harder for the women to work with guys like Jason Derulo. It makes it harder for women or anybody else in any industry that that would want to work with him. The question that I would be looking at, and maybe this is not a fair question to him, is what could I do? Like how could I behave?

How could I comport myself in a way that ensures that no one can misconstrue what it is that I'm doing? And to me, whenever you in a situation like that, that is the way that you should look at that. Now if we're having a conversation where we say it is impossible to comport yourself in a way, or that women in this industry are so.

Predatory that they are always looking for a reason to.

Levy a complaint against you or an accusation, that's pretty cynical. And I would say that I kind of don't agree with that. Not kind of don't agree with it. I definitely don't agree with it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It is cynical. But I think this is an extreme situation if. Based on what he is saying, right. I'm not saying I believe him, I believe her, whatever. But if I had been sued this way, and I am saying I am innocent, I am doing everything that I can to protect myself. If that means bringing in a bunch of men, if that means setting up cameras, if that means recording every situation, I need to do what I need to do to protect myself.

[Van Lathan]

The setting up of the cameras is interesting because I'm not against that. The setting up of the cameras. Hey, these cameras are running full time. Everybody's going to see our studio sessions now. Now, people not gonna like to do that. Cause you ever been in the studio, you know, sometimes you get a little, you know what I'm saying? You're in the studio. Your homies come over here in the studio.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What you know about that? You know about that.

[Van Lathan]

We hitting that. Oh, that tooth. That too uncommon. Like we're doing the whole things. We, we, we in the studio, baby. We in the stew.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Not baby, we in the studio, man.

[Van Lathan]

You know what I'm saying? We in the stew. You know what I'm saying? Sometimes what goes on in the stew is stay in the stew. You know, we, we get turned up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Somebody in who could actually come in that can actually talk.

[Van Lathan]

I know what's going on in the stew. But I'm saying the cameras and all that stuff, that's fine. Taking different. I mean, I could get crazy too, but taking different, precautionary.

I, I guess taking different precautions, it's. It's fine. That's fine. Taking precautionary action is fine. But blanketly putting your situation on any women that might want to work with you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And saying that you're either not going to work with women or you're going to only work with women in certain conditions makes it harder for women to work with guys like Jason Derulo. And that type of attitude is contagious. I understand what he's saying and why he feels that way, but I don't think that's the right way to go about it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I. And maybe I'm being feeling a certain way because it's Jason Derulo and not like Jay Z saying it. Maybe I would because I say it because Jay Z has more impact and influence. I believe than Jason Derulo. So maybe I would feel more like what you're saying. I just don't think it's. That it's especially particular to his situation. I don't think it's going to be that influential of an idea. And I even think about, like, the Me Too movement. If after the MeToo movement, as it moved through different industries, then it eventually hit music would. If people were saying, I'm not working with women anymore because I don't want to be accused. That's something that is more influential and impactful and problematic. When I look at that's. It's just Jason Derulo. Just Jason Derulo. I don't think it's that. I don't think it's that impactful. Sorry if that sounds like dig.

[Van Lathan]

It doesn't sound like a dig. It sounds like a. But.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But it's. It's like you didn't hear, like, moguls who were getting in trouble saying or.

[Van Lathan]

Even who had not been in trouble definitely said that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Number one, they're not not working with women.

[Van Lathan]

Some of them who said that they.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are not working with women anymore.

[Van Lathan]

What you definitely heard as a byproduct of the MeToo movement was that, well, you know, it's just not safe to hire women anymore. It's just not safe to hire women.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did they do that?

[Van Lathan]

Well, a lot of those guys got kicked out to the fucking curb.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I can understand.

[Van Lathan]

But what I'm saying is a lot of people said that, and I think that that is the wrong lesson to take away from.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I agree, and I think that. I agree with you in that. And I don't think that. That. I think people got scared, and I understand the fear. I don't have a problem with people taking precautions. So I remember when stuff was coming out when I was with my ex, I was like, you're in an office alone with sometimes just women. You might need to have precautions in there because you don't know if, like, someone's gonna say they accuse you of touching your chiropractor. Touching them the wrong way or doing something. Like, you just need to do that for. For. For them and for you. I think you can go both ways. Like, if there were cameras in there, you can't accuse me necessarily of doing something. If you're recording a session, audio, video, both. I. I don't really think the precautions are that big of a deal. But I understand your sentiment. If what Jason Derulo says catches on super problematic. I just don't think it's that influential.

[Van Lathan]

This Episode is brought to you by Hyundai. The Hyundai Getaway sales event is on now with awesome deals on most of their popular models including adventure ready SUVs like the Hyundai Santa Fe and Santa Fe Hybrid. There's also the stylish Elantra packed with the latest tech. Or go electric with the Ioniq 5 or Ioniq 6. Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. Offers in 1-5-2026 hi, it's Eva Longoria.

[Rachel Lindsay]

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[Van Lathan]

We have an LA rapper that I've known for a while. How do you feel about being called a LA rapper?

[NaNa]

I don't take no offense to it.

[Van Lathan]

What does LA rapper mean when you hear Na Na's in the house? By the way, give it up for Nanas. Everybody shout out to you to Nick May, my man. Me and I and I met some years ago a lot of times, Nick. So this is what I say about Nick May, my guy. So everybody that Nick knows is the most talented person that's doing whatever they doing. So when Nick introduces you to somebody, he's like, he's a writer. Craziest writer you ever heard before. I'd be like, all right, bro. Hey bro, you ever seen this dance? The craziest dancer. So when he Nick told me that you were such a great rapper at first I ain't want to believe it. I was hating on you, bro.

[NaNa]

You was hating? Why was you hating on me?

[Van Lathan]

Cause Nick said it. You know how me and Nick are. So me and Nick love to argue. And then I listen to it. I'm like, damn, the nigga is nice, man. What the is going on?

[NaNa]

You gotta take everything you do have to take everything that Nick said with a grain of salt.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But why not Nicholas?

[Van Lathan]

Nick is a contrary.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know he is. No, I know he is.

[NaNa]

But I love you, so Nick is the man. I love Nick though.

[Van Lathan]

But LA rapper, what does it mean? What does that mean? LA rapper?

[NaNa]

I mean, I don't take no offense to it. I honestly, like, I love this. This is where I'm from, like, Los Angeles. Like, you know, LA is one of those places that it's like a franchise. It's like Los Angeles Lakers. It's a lot that comes with, you know, being identity. Identity, absolutely. So I wear very proudly, you know, South Central Los Angeles. Yes, sir. South of the 10 Freeway.

[Van Lathan]

South of the 10 Freeway. What's the difference? Because I said something.

I remember I was on Vlad one time and Vlad. I've been on Vlad a bunch of times, man. Been doing Vlad for a long time. I was on Vlad one time and Vlad said that. He said that what he learned about LA when he moved to LA was that there was a bunch of people in LA that would say that they would do stuff. Being Hollywood, they would say that they would do stuff, and then they would never do it. Like, you don't. You don't see these people again. They don't follow through with what that they would say they would say that they would do. I remember I told Vlad, I was like, well, that's because the people that you are meeting, what people consider to be Hollywood, they are from a specific place in Los Angeles. And I think a lot of people confuse the Hollywood portions of LA that they think are la, which is West Hollywood, Hollywood, Santa Monica, all of that stuff, with how actual people live in the community, the anchored communities of Los Angeles. So when people say that people are Hollywood, that the LA is this. Do you feel like they have any idea of the culture south of the 10, like, where you're from?

[NaNa]

No. Like, I really loved when Kendrick was like, don't say you hate LA. And never travel past the 10, you know? Cause a lot of people be like, oh, LA is whack. LA got whack food. The culture's whack. But, like, where did you go? Santa Monica. Santa Monica. You know, that's nowhere near where the true essence of where you would find, like, the heart and soul of la, Leimert park, you know, that's like one of the most prestigious, like, you know, black areas in the world. You know, everybody goes to Lamar park, you know, and, yeah, to me, I'm always like, who are you, you know, connecting with when you get out here? And it's always, no offense, but it's always like, people that are not from Los Angeles, right? Transplants. And it's like, yo, connect with the real folks. Inglewood. Inglewood is so beautiful. It's a beautiful place. Like, Los Angeles is. Is really beautiful. Especially when you have Somebody that's from the land to like, actually show you where everything is at. Show you where to get the bomb food. Everybody, for whatever reason, they think our food is terrible. Granted, we don't have as much diversity as a New York, you know, might have, but, you know, we got some. We got some spots, for sure.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what I need. I need somebody from LA to show me around. I've only been here five years, though. Oh, so I'm not. I'm not.

[Van Lathan]

That's. That's long enough.

[Donnie]

That's long enough.

[NaNa]

Is it fair.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Wait a minute, is it fair that I moved during COVID It is.

[Van Lathan]

That is. That's the big part of it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So I moved to here in 2020.

[NaNa]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So it's like I've been here for two years.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Even because for three years, shit wasn't right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Actually not quite back.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. People always love to tell me, I don't know la.

[NaNa]

Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

For people who are listening, if this is the first interview that they've heard about you, they're meeting you, what would you want them to know about you?

[NaNa]

That I am someone that's very big on, as cliche as it may sound, self belief, you know, self belief, especially in this age of the Internet, where you may see things, see other people's lives and start to compare it to yours and, you know, knock you off your square. But believing in yourself and me believing in myself, I feel like, is what got me to the point where I am right now. And, you know, society is so many variables and factors, especially in the space and the space that we're kind of all in, you know, that can strip you of your confidence, strip you of who you may know you are, and the world will make you believe that you're not that person. But, yeah, self belief, I'm very big on that. And that's what I feel like I represent most in my music and who I am and the people that I feel like I represent. So you.

[Van Lathan]

That seemed like that would be hard to have for a rapper because it seems to me that, like, rap, I'm just gonna be real with you. Most of the rappers that I know, that I really enjoy listening to their music, they're not popular. Most of the people that I think are making great, introspective, sticky rap music, right? Like, they're not the guys that are really blowing up. I'm not saying that the other music is bad, right? I'm saying that the other music is catchy and digestible. But a lot of the good Music is being made by people who don't seem like they have a really strong push.

[NaNa]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

It seems like people want to figure out how the people with talent become the people with audience. Right. Rather than bringing the people with audience to the people with talent.

[NaNa]

Absolutely.

[Van Lathan]

Which is a really interesting space for hip hop to be in.

[NaNa]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

So how do you stay yourself when they want you to rap like somebody else?

[NaNa]

Right. I look at, like, I feel like the tide has turned, like, so much like crazy in 2025, especially to where it's like. It is unfortunate that there is no. You know, I think there were, like, this is the first time in 30 some years that, you know, a rap song wasn't in the Billboard Top 100 or 200 or something like that. But when you look at artists like Freddie Gibbs, who might not be, you know, the most successfully, you know, commercial rapper, but still has this audience and his fan base that will show up, you know what I'm saying? And being a cold to come to a show and, you know, he's getting Grammy nominations, you know, it's just fantastic. It's just great music. Even with the clips, I feel like.

[Van Lathan]

That was great music.

[NaNa]

It was great music. And as we all seen, you know, Killer mike. Killer mike. Absolutely.

[Van Lathan]

Great music.

[NaNa]

Absolutely.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So you really think it's turning? Cause I really think this is interesting because I see, you know, it seems like companies and labels are pushing TikTok sounds and trying to go viral in that way, and that's what makes people popular as opposed to the true talent. You feel like it's being pushed back against now.

[NaNa]

Absolutely. A thousand. A thousand percent, one thousand percent. Cause even at the core of it all, like, with all the corporations and, you know, all of what they may want you to do, I feel like everything starts from this, like, the culture, you know, and they're always pulling from the culture, like.

Unk word ankh, you know, and it's just kind of like, yo, these are things that we've, like, been saying. These are things and, you know, sayings that we've been had embedded in, like what this is, you know.

[Ad voiceover]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

And now they're kind of glomming on to. I want to ask you about something. I was listening to your freestyle and you said, how the fuck we supposed to win when all we got is Aiden Ross?

[NaNa]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

Explain that bar.

[NaNa]

I feel like it's very, very direct because I feel like if that's the bar for, I feel like important voices in that sense, I feel like we are fucked, you know, if that's the bar. If that's like, what the.

Youth is looking to for information and, you know, and information on our culture, you know, because at the end of the day, like, these are guests in our culture.

[Van Lathan]

These are guests. Who's the.

[NaNa]

These people that don't look like us.

[Van Lathan]

Right. You can say white. Yeah.

So let me ask you this. When we talk about that. So would you say that? So you have Aiden Ross. Right. Who represents a different cultural perspective. He's interviewing a lot of big rappers. He has a lot of big audience. One thing that the Internet has done and has made audience has taken control over prestige.

[NaNa]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

So it doesn't matter how important the work that you do is. If you have a big audience, you are important. That's it. It is over.

[NaNa]

Right? Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

But there are people maybe like a bootleg Kev.

[NaNa]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

You know what I mean? There are people that are in the space that are white.

[NaNa]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

That seem to have more of a direct allegiance to maintaining some type of cultural consistency.

[NaNa]

Definitely.

[Van Lathan]

So you feel like there is a difference. Those guys, or do they understand that they're guests? What's the difference between a bootleg kev and a Aiden Ross?

[NaNa]

Um, I feel like bootleg Kev like an ally. Bootleg kev is. He feels he's. He's more of an ally. You know, he understands what this is. He understands the space and he understands his position in the space. And I feel like that's very important.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Compare that to rap. Who's a guest in rap or who. And who understands the culture? Or is there anyone?

[NaNa]

Yeah. I feel like Mac Miller was a. Was a guest that, like, understood, you know, and he was someone that we all accepted in the space as well. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

A legitimately sincere musician.

[NaNa]

Absolutely. 1,000%. And he made some of the most incredible music ever.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So who's a guest?

[NaNa]

Who's a guest in this culture?

[Rachel Lindsay]

In rap? Yeah.

[NaNa]

That looks like us. Or don't look. Or that don't look like us.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Don't look like us.

[NaNa]

Who is a guest? Who is a guest? Who is a guest? I feel like Eminem. Eminem is a guest.

[Van Lathan]

I think he knows it.

[NaNa]

Yeah, Eminem knows it. Eminem is a guest.

[Van Lathan]

I think he knows it. I think Eminem has gone out over the course of his career. He's got a lot of stuff because of who he is, but I think Eminem knows that it's very important for him to.

Not position himself as someone who is a hip hop dominator.

[NaNa]

Absolutely.

[Van Lathan]

Because he is white. I think he knows that.

[NaNa]

Yeah, definitely. And he's another one that I feel like recognizes and understands the space that he's in and.

Who has impacted the culture positively.

[Van Lathan]

Me. And you have a running joke about me talking about. Cause I have friends from LA and I talk about, like the LA street shit is. Is so many rules. One time, Glasses sent me. I told you guys about this map before, and the map was about every hood that was in la. I was fascinated, fascinated. Baton Rouge, five different hoods. They big. You go to different places, you know, la street to street, different situation. And there's lore with all of it. There's lore of it. There was a party, people got to shooting, then they formed their own. I'm like, jesus Christ. You listen to Glasses talk about this stuff. It's like he starts to grow a old white beard. Let me tell you about the history of it. Like a gang wizard or something like that. That is a very specific thing here in Los Angeles and Chicago and Jacksonville, a couple other places. Can LA rappers really get it popping without some sort of street affiliation, without some hood behind you, without sunset behind you? Is it difficult to be viable in LA as a rapper if you don't come from a set, if you're not adjacent to a set, if you're not a part of that culture?

[NaNa]

Yeah, I feel like.

There are rappers that I felt like have had decent success, that have had great success, that weren't pushing that sort of line, you know what I'm saying? A lot of people don't like to give them his credit as such, but Will I am. Oh, you know.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[NaNa]

He's a perfect example.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[NaNa]

You know, just because he's making boom boom pow doesn't mean that, you know what I'm saying? You know, he's not from Los Angeles or even Tyler, the creator.

[Van Lathan]

Same thing. Yeah.

[NaNa]

You know, so I feel like Los Angeles has a lot of versatility in that way. And I feel like Tyler is somebody that. For that reason, I feel like a lot of people didn't see him as a LA rapper because he wasn't pushing that sort of line. But I. I love how, you know, he was one of the performers at the Pop out because I feel like that was a moment in everybody being like, yo, Tyler is one of us. He grew up in Hawthorne, you know, he's definitely south of the 10. Certified for sure.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The crowd definitely reflected that.

[NaNa]

Absolutely.

[Van Lathan]

Were you there?

[NaNa]

I was.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was taken.

[Van Lathan]

I was like, whoa.

[NaNa]

You would have thought Kendrick.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Kendrick came out. No, 100%.

[Van Lathan]

100%.

[NaNa]

It was like that. That energy. I'm like, wow. Like.

People love him.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Getting to know you, what originally pulled you into music? And when did you realize rap was gonna be the path for you? And did I read that your father was a pastor?

[Van Lathan]

He is.

[NaNa]

He is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

How did that influence.

[NaNa]

I'm a pk, for sure. Yeah, I am.

[Van Lathan]

That's why you rebelled with the devil's music.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They're all preachers. Kids are always fun. The devil's music, I ain't gonna lie.

[NaNa]

I really love sinners. I really love that he related to Sammy, man. That one, definitely. It spoke to me so deeply, especially because of, like, just, like, the message and, like, the form of ministry. Sammy.

You know, decided to go in and how his father was, like, warning him and things of that nature. But I ain't gonna lie. My dad, he love my music. He loves my music. My dad, he front row every show.

[Van Lathan]

Aw.

[NaNa]

Yeah, he loves my music.

[Van Lathan]

So there was never any. Cause you're Ghanaian.

[NaNa]

Absolutely right.

[Van Lathan]

So being from Ghana and the sort of religiousness that comes particularly in a lot of. There's a religious and a cultural sort of deal that you're doing with your dad and that he never let that get in the way of his understanding of your hip hop.

[NaNa]

No. Cause he's like, this is his form of ministry, you know, and also what I choose to speak about my music, you know, not everybody's gonna be a preacher, you know, and he understands that. And, you know, when my parents came to this country, they came here to create opportunity. And one thing that they realize now more than ever in 2025 is so much opportunity out here compared to how they grew up back home. So, yeah, my mom and my dad, they front row every show. They telling everybody, my mom got a beauty supply, and everybody that comes through there, she's telling everybody, oh, my son is a rapper. He's on Instagram. Follow him on Instagram. So I be getting random messages sometimes like, yo, I just went to your mom's store, and she put me on your music. Yo, you dope. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, oh, that's what's up. You know? So, yeah, they're definitely my biggest supporters. But for the longest, I'm not gonna lie, I hid it from them because I was scared that they wouldn't be receptive or accepting of what it was that I was super passionate about. So, yeah, it's. And to answer your question, once I realized I was not going to the NBA, I was like, I need to find.

[Van Lathan]

I hooped with you. That was never Gonna happen.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Welcome to. Welcome to.

[Van Lathan]

I hope I'm with Nana. But he did. We did.

[NaNa]

I'm not gonna lie, Van. Nicer than I thought.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Finish what you were saying. Finish what you were saying.

[Van Lathan]

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry that. I'm sorry that I'm not. I'm sorry, Rachel.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, to be fair, you did say he was never going, so I.

[Van Lathan]

Don'T know what that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know what the talent really compares to.

[NaNa]

Man was moving like Kareem in 2021, but, you know, he was moving in slow motion.

[Van Lathan]

But you know what I'm saying? I was bigger even at the time, you know? Now with the Achilles is fucked up, you know?

[NaNa]

You know that. Oh, they got the part that just can't miss. But he moving in slow motion. You can hear every crack, snap, crackle, and. And every bone. And he just. I'm like, yo, he got it.

[Van Lathan]

I'm like, man, if I can get that bitch. If that bitch go up, it's going in. And we was playing outside where. What was that part?

[NaNa]

It was Baldwin Hills Park.

[Van Lathan]

Baldwin Hills park, yeah. Cause Nick. Another thing about Nick is Nick keep you connected to your people. Yeah. As Nick. Nick is like, hey, I want to. Nick, I want to go get something to eat. Nick is not taking you anywhere in Hollywood.

[NaNa]

Never.

[Van Lathan]

Nick is taking you to a place where when you walk in, they go, homie, cool.

We walking in. That's Nick's thing. N is connected to the community.

[NaNa]

Real talk. And I gotta say this about Nick, too. Like, I'm from Los Angeles. I was born and raised, you know, in South Central. And Nick has put me onto so many different like, that I thought I knew. And he's like, one of the most universal people. Like, he's familiar with Southern culture. He's familiar with Los Angeles culture when it comes to music and entertainment. He's like a historian. I'm like, yo, how old are you really, bro?

[Van Lathan]

I tell you to pull up. Last thing I said about him. That's my man. He tell you to pull up. He say it's gonna be people here. You never know if it's gonna be his homie that just got out or J.J. abrams. You just don't know.

[NaNa]

That's a fact.

[Van Lathan]

You never know. You never know who is gonna be. But you know, he got something.

[NaNa]

Absolutely. And I gotta say this, too, one last thing about Nick that I had to like it to this day. It, like, really makes me happy because I never had the chance to actually, like, formally meet him. Nick played My music for Nipsey, a month before he passed.

[Van Lathan]

Wow. Yeah.

[NaNa]

And I thought that, like, that was, like, one of the most fulfilling things for me, especially where it is that I come from and what I represent and what I speak about and.

My identity as well. Cause Nip was East African from South Central. I'm West African from South Central. So that made me so happy. And, you know, as you know, him passing impacted everybody. So I was just kind of like. He was like, yo, I played your music. I was like, man, stop lying. Cause like I said, sometimes you never know, isn't it? But he showed me the receipts, he showed me the text. I was like, whoa, that's crazy.

[Van Lathan]

So what Underrated. I think about rappers in LA that are underrated. I was on the way here, RJ30 in the middle played. That's one of my.

[NaNa]

I seen that favorite song, bro.

[Van Lathan]

That song is so hard. I don't understand. That's a record that. Every time I play that record, people go, who is that? LA Got LA is to me, the capital of the underrated rapper. Because even the rappers that are rated, to me, are still underrated. Right, buddy? Rated. Rated, everybody. He's a. That's a rap star. Still underrated. Reason. Rated. That's a rap star. That's a. That's a legitimate rap star. Still underrated. Still underrated. I would say that, like, bro, I can make an argument that even, like, absol. Absolutely still under all of this immense, crazy, really transcendent talent that for some reason, it doesn't. It, like, why? I don't know why. Why, like, they, they, they. They. All of these guys are that. And I could even go further, right. With a lot of other people. Like, yeah, all of these guys are that. But it seems like sometimes it doesn't escape the LA capture.

[NaNa]

Yeah. I feel like people feel like our music is so regional, for whatever reason, that never really. I never understood that, like, why people feel.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know. I'm from Texas. I don't. And I like it. I'm not familiar with everybody. You guys just name. But it does feel just for y'.

[Van Lathan]

All.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I don't know what that feeling is, but it just doesn't feel like it's for everybody. Not saying it's not good. It just feels like you're not in the club.

[NaNa]

Right, right, right, right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I don't know why, right?

[NaNa]

But I feel like music was in a better space when everything did feel regional, you know, when, you know. Cause Weeknd Free Kid comes on in the club. You gonna dance crazy. You know what I'm saying?

[Van Lathan]

Best beats of all time. Corrupt like crazy. That's a very west coast song.

[NaNa]

Yeah. Move, bitch. Get out the way. Southern mosh. Like, that's like, you know, ghetto.

[Van Lathan]

Like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Donnie]

That's like.

[NaNa]

You feel me? That's like, you know. So I don't know, for whatever reason, people feel like our music is just like, you know, maybe it's because. I don't know. I don't know if it's. I don't know what it is, but I've heard people be like, yo. You know, I don't know. I can't really get down to that because it's super. I don't know, for whatever reason, I just can't get into it, but I'm just kind of like, you know, our music, I feel like the foundation of it and what it was kind of built upon, you know, is music in its purest form, like zapping Roger.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[NaNa]

You know, Bootsy Collins and you got Dr. Dre and them that took that and, you know, evolved it from what it was. So, I don't know.

[Van Lathan]

Your EP is coming out pretty soon. Tell me about the new ep.

[NaNa]

So it's called the Internet Killed the Superstar.

[Van Lathan]

Wow.

[NaNa]

Yeah. I feel like the name itself speaks.

Volumes on various different levels. You know, I feel like.

Everything is too accessible. The things that people have and fans have, they shouldn't have. They shouldn't have access to Spotify Monthly listeners they shouldn't have access to because they start to feel as if they can be the A and R. And, you know, they made a couple of playlists and all of a sudden. And it's crazy. Crazy thing. I said this the other day. I feel like we're in a day and age where, you know, those are the people that actually get the A and R jobs, Right?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[NaNa]

You know, so full circle. It comes back around. I just feel like people have too much access to everything. You know, there's certain things that we shouldn't see, or. I feel like it's certain things that we don't value as much because we have too much access to it. You know, when Michael Jackson was alive and kicking and going crazy, you know, you didn't know what he did or what he ate last night or, you know, it kept you. You had to write fan mail and hope that whoever was running his fan mail would send you something back. And, you know, it just kept your mind wandering. And when you saw him, it made it more impactful because you're like, yo, that's Michael Jackson. Nowadays, you got fans and comments talking crazy to their favorite artists, like, you, when you gonna drop? Da da da da da. And it's like back then, there was more reverence, there was more respect, you know, because you didn't see your weren't everywhere. There weren't everywhere.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is there anybody that you think still has it like that? Like, is there anybody who feels mythical or magical? That's an artist that still keeps the mystery, curiosity.

[NaNa]

Kendrick. Yeah, I would say Kendrick.

[Van Lathan]

Dot, maybe.

[NaNa]

Kendrick. And I feel like Kendrick, Beyonce.

Jay Z too. I feel like Jay Z's like, you know, he's like one of those people. He walk in the room and it's just like. Like the aura like his, you know, it just like, yo, that's Jay Z. You know? Yeah, I feel like those are the few.

[Van Lathan]

Last question. You. You one of the. You one of the little niggas of the rap game. In a rap game, you are a lil nigga.

[NaNa]

What. What you. What do you. What do you mean?

[Van Lathan]

Like, if we looking at rappers, you like, you a little, right?

[NaNa]

I don't get what you saying.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, Ex. Like, explain what do you mean by that?

[Van Lathan]

Well, I'm like, is in anything that we doing is like guys that really move the culture and move the needle and do all of that stuff, you're.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, you're pairing to like a JC or a.

[Van Lathan]

Like, you are very talented. Like, super talented. And. But like, as far as rappers are concerned, you would be considered a little nigga.

[NaNa]

I don't appreciate what you saying.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[NaNa]

No, no. You know. Yeah. Like, what do you mean by that?

[Van Lathan]

It's the way he a little nigga.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's the. It's you saying it that way.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I mean, he a little nigga. I mean, if we comparing people to like, he a nigga. What you talking about, man?

[NaNa]

But you saying that I'm a little Is like, you don't just say lil nigga to. Yeah, that ain't cool. You. You can't. You can't.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, you about to walk up. Oh, hold on. What is you saying? I'm saying what you mean. Hold on, wait, wait, wait. Hold on, hold on real quick. First of all, you got. We don't. We don't. I said the fuck I meant, like, when I'm just give him.

[NaNa]

First of all, don't even know you.

[Donnie]

We're done. We're done.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That was supposed to be a joke.

[NaNa]

Gotcha.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was like.

[NaNa]

I was like, I have no.

Right.

[Van Lathan]

It's all love.

[NaNa]

God bless.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I. I am not laughing.

[NaNa]

Wait, yo, she's shaking, right?

[Van Lathan]

Well, I was like, rachel is sh.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why did you ask him that?

[NaNa]

Yo.

[Van Lathan]

Like, okay, hey, shout out to the homies. Like, rachel, Rachel.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was mortified that you said that. Like, run the tape back out. I was like, please explain what you mean by that.

[Van Lathan]

Explain mean. We was. That was a joke. We was joking on you the whole time.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't like it.

[Van Lathan]

The homies did a good job. Yo.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yo, J. Bernard, were y' all in on.

[Van Lathan]

Everybody knew we were all in on it. All right, this was written for Freddy Krueger next. For Freddy Krueger. For Freddy Krueger.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Can I just commend you on your acting, though? Like, the homies was good, yo, that's when it got.

[Van Lathan]

He put him in something he didn't even need to.

[NaNa]

The big boy, J boy.

[Van Lathan]

That's who made me believe something, man. That's what made me believe it. Put him. I'mma literally put him in something. That was dope.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That was good. When I. I was like, wow, okay, this is really happening.

[Van Lathan]

You didn't even try to.

[NaNa]

You didn't square up with me and.

[Van Lathan]

Try to get no act right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not going to jump in between. But you saw I up. We need to stop. We need to stop.

[NaNa]

I've never seen Van not like that. I didn't know how committed he was going to be, but he was. I'm like, oh.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Literally was like, this turns. I thought they were friends. Literally, that popped up in my head. I thought they were cool. Where is Nicholas May?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, he was in on it, too. Let me tell you why. Nick was in on it, too. Let me tell you. Let me tell you. I want y' all to go out. If you listening right now, I want y' all to go out and get nine eyes. Music serious, man. This is one of the most solid, consistent, talented brothers that I've ever met. The music is great. Shout out to my man Desus, too. Desus be rocking with the shit. The music is great, and I feel like next year is going to be a gigantic year for you. I just want to introduce you to the higher learning audience. You can see him everywhere. Been doing his thing for a long time. You can see him everywhere. But you right there is happening, and the music is consistently getting better.

[NaNa]

Thank you.

[Van Lathan]

I want to use you and your street connections to troll Rachel because she did Freddy Krueger three years in a row. You handled it better than what you thought you was.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You thought I was gonna be like, call security?

Is that what you thought you handled.

[Van Lathan]

It better than I thought you was. But like, so we, we, we got the, we got the close ups of Rachel. I want to see.

All right.

[NaNa]

Thank you. Thank you so much. And I gotta say this before y' all did. I really appreciate you guys having me on your platform and in relation to, to piggyback off of what you were saying just as far as important voices, I want to thank you both for the voices that you have that you provide on behalf of us, you know, and what you guys do. It really means a lot. And I love how you guys hold people accountable. You know, I feel like that's very important, you know, in the day and age and the space that we're in, you guys aren't afraid. You guys are trailblazers and what it is that you guys do. And I really appreciate you guys having me. Thank you.

[Van Lathan]

Appreciate you too.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That makes up for it.

[Van Lathan]

Y'. All. Go get the music. Stream the stuff that's already out. Go get the stuff that's new. We gonna come back in a second. Let's take a break.

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[Van Lathan]

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[Van Lathan]

We're probably gonna get more political on next show, but right now we gotta talk about Sydney Sweeney. A lot of entertainment stuff that's going on. Sydney Sweeney says that she's against. Hey, Donnie, talk about it.

[Donnie]

Yeah. She talked to People magazine about the the blowback that she got for the American Eagle. Sydney Sweeney has great jeans ad. This is what she was quoted as saying to people. She said, I was honestly surprised by the reaction. I did it because I love the jeans and love the brand and I don't support the views. Some people chose to connect to the campaign. Many have assigned motives and labels to me. That just aren't true. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm always trying to bring people together. I'm against hate and divisiveness. In the past, my stance has been to never respond to negative or positive press. But recently I've come to realize that my silence regarding this issue has only widened the divide, not closed it. So I hope this new year brings more focus on what connects us instead of what divides us.

[Van Lathan]

Rach.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no.

True. I just, you know.

This is also her way of saying, don't ask me this question again. Let's stop talking about it. This is what I'll say. I'm gonna be. I'm not gonna read too much into it. I'm gonna take Sydney Sweeney at her word. She says, this is who she is. She doesn't align with the views that people tried to place on her. In regards to what the ad was insinuating or people took it to be insinuating, they haven't outrights it. That's what it is. My only thought is, then you should have just said it from the beginning. Because what she says in this interview with People magazine is that she was silent. And she said, I've come to realize that my silence regarding the issue only widened the divide, not closed. That's not true. You weren't silent. You actually gave a statement to gq. And that's what fed into people feeling like, oh, okay, well, tell us how you really feel. You laughed and giggled. You said it didn't affect me one way or the other. You were flippant. You were a little dismissive. You were very cavalier about it all. And you acted like you were unaware of how people were offended or the impact or the underlying issue of the man. You played dumb about it. And I think that's what fed into people even more so having a problem with it. We also know that it wasn't as big of a deal as it was made. New York Times did a whole article on how it was a couple of videos that the right took and ran with it. Cuz they knew it would become a political issue and turned it into something bigger than it really was. Like the New York Times has all the statistics surrounding that. But my thing is is like I don't really feel that strongly about it. Just like the first time we talked about it, I said the same. Really? Not that up in arms about it, but don't also talk to us like what happened didn't happen. You were very cavalier about the whole thing. And now you have a statement that speaks directly to it. And that's great. And I believe you in what you say. And let's move on.

[Van Lathan]

I think the whole thing was pretty silly from the beginning. I think the whole thing was pretty silly. The ad, the jeans. I mean, you know, you talk about jeans, you talk about superior jeans, whatever. It's like, I've just heard so many times, like, it's in the jeans. You're tall. You can do whatever, Whatever, whatever. We can have a deeper conversation. We have deeper conversations, guys. We can live. Make a living off deeper conversations, which is what we do here at Highland. We have a deeper conversation. I have no problem with it. I was never offended by the ad. Yeah. What is interesting about this, though, if you want to have a deeper conversation, is why she's saying this now and has nothing to do with the way that she's been.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was trying. I was trying not to.

[Van Lathan]

So, like, what. What happened with the American Eagle thing was that them jeans went crazy. I don't know if people know, but your anger over the jeans didn't do shit. Jeans was flying off the set, fucking sales racks going crazy. Everybody went out and got themselves some good jeans. That's what happened.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Stock went up, stock went up, Everything went nuts. Everything went crazy. For their company, for their company. It's all great, like all of that stuff. No, for her it was fine. For her it was fine. It did not in any way affect her or. There was no measurable way to know that it affected her until one thing happened. Sydney Sweeney did a movie this year called Christie. The movie is about a pioneering women's boxer named Christy Martin. The film went to 2100 theaters in its first week and it made $1.3 million domestically. That is historically bad. Historically bad. Historically bad. She has a new movie coming out called the Housemaid or something like that. I think that's the name of the movie. And she doesn't want that movie to do. Historically bad. Because now what Sydney Sweeney has become is something that a movie star cannot be. Divisive. She's become a divisive cultural figure. About a year ago, two years ago, everyone could agree on Sydney Sweeney. She was a bubbly, big breasted white star on the verge. What is the worst thing for movie stars is when people cannot agree on you. When they can't agree that they want to go see your movies. They can't agree that it's okay to be a fan of you. To be a movie star. Most people have to agree on you. That's what being a movie star is. She and her people, for whatever reason, were put in a position where it's difficult to have a non committal general opinion on Sydney Sweeney. She is either the same big breasted white girl from Euphoria that opened a movie with Glenn, or she is the Maga Wicked Witch of the West. Well, actually she's not the Maga Wicked Witch of West. She's Glinda the good maga witch. And people decided that we don't want to see Glinda the good magic witch in her Oscar turn. And the movie that was going to make her a serious actress, they didn't like that. And people were like, hey, go get your shit back. Go and get your, take your movie stardom back. Either lean into it, which would make her divisive forever, or get back to a point where you're letting people know you can go see the stuff that I make and you don't have to think about me. Now I know that there have been stars that have taken political stands forever, but it's never the stars that you think that it is. So your stars that take the political stance or your, your serious character actor movie type stars, people you're not gonna hear Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, all of these people take any stands that would put in direct opposition to them. Sometimes you get it. Sometimes you get a Brad Pitt gay marriage situation sometimes. But the ones that you're talking about that you want to go out and watch their rom coms, unless it is a layup, they stay quiet on this stuff. And being directly connected to a political movement like MAGA is just not going to work for her. If that's what she wants to be. If she wants to be a gigantic movie star that opens four quadrant movies or even opens big rom coms or movies like that, she can't do well.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, no, yeah. I didn't touch on the movie part of it. But it was more than just Christy. That other movie came out too, after the ad, The Americana movie. It was released after in theaters in the States. It did not do well either.

[Van Lathan]

Christy was specific though. And I'll tell you why it was specific, because she was in that film. And that movie might have not been a big box office movie, but it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Was supposed to be Oscar.

[Van Lathan]

It was supposed to be a big Oscar thing. It was her doing the whole transformation. That's the movie that gets you to the next, that gets you taken seriously.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. I agree, but I, I all to your point, I think that the biggest mistake she made is acting like she Said, it doesn't affect me. And then they said, oh, just wait. And now it's affecting her. Which is to your point, why we're getting the response that we're getting. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not tripping on Sydney Sweeney. I know people have all kinds of problems with her and stuff like that. It's just, you know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no. We've maintained on this podcast like that was this. This was never an issue for us. It definitely wasn't our issue.

[NaNa]

All right.

[Van Lathan]

Man. There's something that's happening right now, and.

We got to talk about on higher learning, but it's like, I will say it's a little bit. It's an interesting situation for us. All right, before we even get to this, I want to say something. Black History Month is coming up in February. It's very important Black History Month, right? I think it's like. I think it's the 100th anniversary. It's something like that. Me and Deray been talking about it. It's a very important Black History Month. Okay? So I think that Black history week was 50 years, and then Black History Month was 50 years. I think this is the hundredth anniversary of it. Shout out to Carji Wilson. We talked about him a little earlier. So here at the Ringer, I. I have a idea for Black History Month. The ring. How the Ringer can celebrate Black History Month month. The Ringer should do this for one whole month. The ringer. Black History pop up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay?

[Van Lathan]

Meaning any black on camera talent at the Ringer should be able to pop up on any ringer podcast unannounced for five minutes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I love it.

[Van Lathan]

So if you. If you in the office and you on camera, black ringer talent, and you just decide that you want to go pop in on the watch for five minutes while, like, Andy and Chris are talking about a show, you get five minutes to go in there and just get your shit off.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No. You know why I love this? Because, you know, I don't know most of, like, it's a running joke, you know, I don't know the podcast people who are here. I just want to wander. I just want to wander into. I just want to wander in a random podcast and be like, I'm here.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, who are you? Where am I?

[Van Lathan]

Bill is sitting down talking to Chuck Klosterman. You walk in and you go, let's do five minutes on Grace Jones. Fuck it. Like on the Rewatchables, you walk in, they talking about over the top. You walk in and you go, hey, you know what? Give me a three minute. Clear out on Uptown Saturday night. That's the whole month. The whole month. And you never. And you could see them looking up on camera like, ah, shit, here come Jon. Just sit down. And he just going to his.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let's have a meeting after this.

[Van Lathan]

Three to five minutes of the ringer blacks. Three to five minutes. That should be the black history pop up. The reason why I bring that up is because we're going to talk about something that is now kind of ringer involved, because Stephen A. Smith versus Max Kellerman. Max Kellerman now got a podcast with us.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Part of the ringer family.

[Van Lathan]

Part of the ringer family. Him and Rich Paul. So when we are talking about this, we have to say at the outset that Max is now ringer.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Stephen A. You. We have a relationship with Stephen A. I know Stephen A. A little bit. You know Stephen A. But when we talk about this, we have to have a conversation with the audience and let them know that Max does work for the ringer now, because this something happened that fascinated me. Max went on Bill's podcast. He called himself Muhammad Keller Tournament. And he. He intimated. Okay. He intimated that the reason why Stephen A. Smith didn't like doing first take with him is because Max used to roll Stephen A. Smith up, stuff him in the.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He basically said it.

[Van Lathan]

That's what he said.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

He said, who wants to go 15 rounds with Muhammad Kellerman? He said it like this here, going crazy. Like, what did you think about that statement?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I thought he's really happy to be back in front of the camera on the microphone and happy to be a part of the ringer family. Because he said, I've been waiting for this. It's my time now. And I love that. It was done on our network, Donnie.

[Van Lathan]

On our network, Donnie.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The ringer network.

[Van Lathan]

The ringer network. I guess so.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The ringer network.

[Van Lathan]

Donnie, what did you think of it?

[Donnie]

It's spicy. I like spicy. It's workplace spice.

[Van Lathan]

He likes it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He has been waiting to say that.

[Van Lathan]

He's been waiting to get that off of his chest.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That didn't come to him in the moment. He planned on saying that.

[Van Lathan]

So Stephen A. Responded to Max saying that on his podcast on Straight Shooter with Stephen H. Play it, Donnie. Play that.

[Ad voiceover]

Did I hear correctly? Did we show what he called himself? Muhammad Kellerman. As in Muhammad Ali Keller. Muhammad Ali Kellerman.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, my God.

[Ad voiceover]

I ain't gonna lie to y'.

[Van Lathan]

All.

[Ad voiceover]

I had my researchers check and make sure that wasn't AI.

[Van Lathan]

That.

[Ad voiceover]

That wasn't some that somebody just made up. You know, I had to be.

[Van Lathan]

I had to double check that.

[Ad voiceover]

I really, really did. I couldn't believe it. Okay, if we were talking about boxing, you absolutely right. Because I don't know anybody that knows more boxing than Max Keller. He's extraordinary. No doubt about that. We're talking about first take, though, and he took it someplace that. All I want to say is, are you really sure you want to go there? See, there's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes. Are you sure you want to go there? Because I'm not unless you take me there.

[Van Lathan]

So as far as what goes on behind the scenes, I don't really know about that. I can't really say anything about that. We never really get the story that everybody has their own perspective. And it's interesting what's been happening over the last, I don't know, two or three months. Stephen A. And then Jamel and then Michelle Beetle and then Carrie Champion, and then all of these people that work with him and their perceptions of him and how different they look at him. There's times where they have a lot of affinity for him, but then there's also other things that they seem to. It seems like Stephen A. Is the ultimate company man. Meaning like every, there's, at every place that you work, there is somebody that, like, you think that you can talk to, and then you talk to them. And while they might be helpful, what the fuck am I applying for? You know, like, you, you, you work there. So why, why am I making a conjecture about this? Like, you know, what it's like to work with him?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I didn't work as closely with him as Carrie did, as she was the official, you know, third member of First Take for some years. I didn't work with him, maybe even as intimately as Jamel did. But I, I, I let you, you know, say your piece or whatever about it. Cause that's fair and everything. I have a very positive experience with Steve Naysay.

[Van Lathan]

A lot of people do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

A very positive, like, I actually don't have one bad thing to say about him, except for I don't agree with, you know, his political takes, which I've expressed on this podcast. I have sat at the table between Max Kellerman and Stephen A. Smith on First Take. So I, you know, I've been in meeting, prep meetings to prepare for shows for First Take with the two of them. They don't, they're not in there at the same time either. Like, at least my experience was like that. I Will say that when I was there, I. I thought it was the first time I learned, oh, this is how you can tell people aren't as close when the. During the commercial break because they're on. Like we'll be on our phones, but we still talk. Like they. There just was like no communication. So really the camera came on. Now I was there mid part of their tenure together on first take. I didn't. I mean, they were cool. I wouldn't have said that they were close from what I saw. But I also don't know the inner workings of it, if I was going to assume. It does seem like Stephen A. Smith is the show, the star, and he does not want anybody to be on his level when it comes to it. It's his show. I think that is how once Skip left, that's how he looked at the show. And I think that when you have that kind of mentality that maybe you don't want someone else getting equal or more positive attention than you are. And it seems as time went on, that was happening at least on social media or maybe of the. The guests that would come on the show. When it came to Max versus Stephen A. Smith, and if you call him a company man, which I can't confirm or deny, but he obviously has had success rising in the company, it does appear that he plays more of a corporate game than Max was willing to.

[Van Lathan]

Well, what I mean by company man is this, and I don't mean to use that as a pejorative. What I mean is this. It's like everybody that's working at a company right now, everyone don't matter where you at, there's somebody that you're gonna ask for their help and their counsel, and they gonna give you their help or their counsel, right? They just gonna look at you and be like, I'm going to help this person and counsel this person. Give them the straight, real raw of it, right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's Stephen A. Smith, okay? In my experience and other people that I do know, and I'm not going to name them, I'm not going to speak for them, he has, he has spoken in rooms for me when I am not there.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, now this is what I'll say about that as well. There's a different version of that too, though. There is somebody who. The reason why they do that is intel gathering.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Maybe.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not, I'm not saying that this is him, but I'm saying just so everybody out there knows, there's somebody that will help you and will help you get ahead and speak for you and all of that stuff. But the reason why they do it is partly for you, but partly to build their tribe where they are and also to know what bothers you, to know what pokes you to build. They'll take what you say, right? And if it.

If it advantages them to weaponize whatever malaise you're in or whatever distrust you have in the company, if it benefits them, they'll use that. That. If it benefits them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Knowing a little bit more about you. That's why two things people have to really, really, really be careful about. One, who you let edit you. Anyone who you give the opportunity to tell you what you should or should not say, that person will then think that that's their responsibility. So just super be careful who you let edit you. The people that you go to and say, hey, should I have done that? When you. Though it's just human nature, when you do that with somebody, they're gonna think, now it's their responsibility to do that. Most people, they'll come back and be like, hey, just. I know you asked me before, you probably shouldn't say this either. It's just be careful who you let edit you. And the second one is be careful who you complain to. Be careful who you go to and say, this isn't working out. Can I please have some counsel about this? Because that is a very, very intimate relationship to have with somebody. And if you know somebody's got your best interest at heart, you have to know to do that with them. Because some people will take that. And if it's two years from now and they not with you no more, or if it's two months from now and they're not with you no more and you up for the promotion, and they can get closer to the boss of the place by saying, yeah, I don't know about them. Like, they. They've been having a tough time. You didn't act like, I don't know about them, they'd be having a tough time. That. That when people do stuff like that, it gets them closer to the uppers, because the uppers think, oh, now that's somebody that I can trust to come to me and tell me when things aren't going right, that's somebody I can trust about that. And if you have to be sidelined for them to get closer to them, they'll do that. So I'm not saying anything about Stephen A. I never worked with him. I do know that there seems to be one faction of people that look at him just like you and I've heard this so many times about what he does for people. Then there's another group of people that think that he does that for his own benefit and to his own ends.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And, and, and I can only speak to my. Because I have an actual personal experience. I can only speak to that. But I will say that it did get to a point where he didn't want him on the show.

[Van Lathan]

That's what we're about to do right here.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. Like there. It got to a point where Stephen A. Smith and Max could not work together anymore.

[Van Lathan]

The question that we asked ourselves here at Higher Learning Journey, the place that does the work that some of you guys don't want to do. We get deep into the guts of a situation and we get deep into them guts until a situation can't handle us anymore. The situation gently puts that hand on you and says, okay, just a little stop. Okay. And then you have to be a little bit more gentle.

I apologize.

I'm sorry. That.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Just keep going.

[Van Lathan]

I'm sorry, Rachel. I apologize, man. That was too much.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You can't help yourself.

[Van Lathan]

I know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We've been here for almost two hours. It has to. It has to seep out.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I know. Seep out. No, there's a strong strength.

Like I do Kegels.

[NaNa]

So.

[Van Lathan]

So we decided that we are going to first take. Embraces the debate. We decided that we're going to score some of these debates to see who came out on top. All right. Rachel was very into this idea.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I like it. I like it. I like it. Also miss old first take.

[Van Lathan]

I miss it too.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, so we're not gonna do. We. We looked for these and there's. They're very long winded on first date. Which is. It should be because, you know, like, who am I to get on somebody for that? That's my whole brand. But we're going to take bites of these back and forths and we're going to score them like boxing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

We've. We've. We got what, three or four of them here? All right. First there was Max and Stephen A going back and forth on the NBA lifting the marijuana ban. Donnie, play it.

[Max Kellerman]

They'd have the right to because there are examples of players who've shown up high. That's a reason to outlaw recreational use on someone's own own time. It's absurd on its face. Many baseball players have shown up. World Series. World Series.

[Ad voiceover]

You get your own time. No answer that. You said your own time. What do you mean your own time? Be Specific. Be specific. What do you mean?

[Max Kellerman]

Your own time playing the game, not the playstyle. You can't show up high. You can't show up high. But after the game, what you go off and do is your business. Now, many pitchers, David Wells came straight from the board.

[Van Lathan]

That happened.

[Max Kellerman]

Probably pitched a perfect game. He shouldn't be allowed to.

[Ad voiceover]

I'm against that too, of course.

[Max Kellerman]

But that doesn't mean that you say they can't drink alcohol on their own time. Particularly a league that is in bed with companies that peddle alcoholic beverages. Absurd. If that's the standard that. Especially once marijuana is legalized to set. If the bar is alcohol, marijuana passes that threshold. Every credible peer reviewed study ever done will tell you alcohol is worse society. And for the individual.

[Van Lathan]

Ad hominem. Cut it off. Cut it off. That's a 10, 9 round for Kellerman. I feel like Kellerman, the higher learning crew family. I feel like Kellerman took that one.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There was no other point to make. He killed it when he said they can do it on their own time. I agree. Don't come into the game, but on your own time. That's your own time.

[Van Lathan]

But it's just a tough stance to take that in some way weed is more destructive than alcohol, particularly.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's a conservative view.

[Van Lathan]

It's a. Oh.

All right. Oh, God. All right. Now here's another flashpoint issue that was good. Rachel, you introduced this one.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Which one is this?

[Van Lathan]

Let's go to the.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The Black Lives Matter.

[Van Lathan]

What the.

This is Stephen A. Smith vs Max Kellerman on the Black Lives Matter protest. I'm just telling you right now, this got to be a victory for Stephen A. This has got. He's got to win this one.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, you would hope so.

[Van Lathan]

This is his backyard, right? Donnie, play it.

[Donnie]

That's this.

[Ad voiceover]

We got a lot to protest about. But when you riot, particularly in your own community.

[Van Lathan]

We got to keep going.

[Ad voiceover]

We got to keep going. Something that we lamented. Because when the fire stops burning and the damage has been done and you've done it in your own community, where do you go from there? The Detroit riots, for example, in 1967, they still have never fully recovered from that.

[Van Lathan]

It's not what happened.

[Ad voiceover]

Guys ravaged their own community at that particular moment in time. I only bring that up to say this in this regard. I only bring that up to say this in this regard. When you're looking at the NBA, you're not talking about the players. You're talking about the collateral effect that it has on people, the sport employs, on people in local economies who feed off of that. The fact is just something like that. Canceling the NBA season is not just going to affect the players. It's going to affect thousands upon thousands of people.

[Van Lathan]

Economy.

[Ad voiceover]

And that's going to have a.

[Van Lathan]

What could.

[Ad voiceover]

Max, I can't ignore that because that's going to affect us.

[Max Kellerman]

Obviously, it's not about games. It's better not to riot. I'm not pro.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I agree.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, let me be very clear about that off the top.

[Ad voiceover]

I'm not saying that.

[Van Lathan]

I just brought that up.

[Max Kellerman]

Rioting in their own communities. Black people don't own those communities. Oh, they don't own those communities. And the.

[Van Lathan]

And. And those. And.

[Max Kellerman]

And this culture has been rioting against black people.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, my God.

[Max Kellerman]

For hundreds of years now.

[Van Lathan]

Sound like John Brown.

[Max Kellerman]

Just interesting. But they're not. The property they're destroying is not their own even. In fact, I'm not.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But it is in their community.

[Max Kellerman]

Like the idea that Stephen asked this is counterproductive.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's not their own, but it's where.

[Max Kellerman]

They shot certain ways. Not maybe I don't want to. It is in certain ways. And it's a bet in, you know, it's better not to riot. However, it's not in all the ways that's presented in the media.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's true, too.

[Van Lathan]

That's true, too. Okay, we got to be objective. How do we score that one? So Stephen A. Smith basically made the point that riding is bad. He also said that Detroit has not recovered from the riots. I would say to Stephen A. Smith and other people that make that, that Detroit has not covered for the loss of industry with the differing sort of, you know, the globalization of the auto industry, you know, plants moving out of different places and leaving people in Detroit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, that's a lot of Midwest cities.

[Van Lathan]

Within exacerbate the racial differences that have always existed there. But they became more prevalent after there was no industry left and people moved out to Auburn Hills and left the city to die. But he thinks it was because of a riot, so that's fine. How would you score that? How would you score Stephen A. Smith against Max Kellerman?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did Stephen A. Smith ever say the word protest?

[Van Lathan]

I don't remember. I mean, in that clip, he didn't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

In that clip, he didn't. He popped off with the riot. Yeah, a lot of negatives there. A lot of negatives with the riot. The one. I mean, Max won this because he does make the point. I mean, he makes the point that they weren't their stores. Well, first off, he Says I'm against rioting, which. That's always the stance that I take. I say I'm for the protesting, you.

[Van Lathan]

Know, I don't give a fuck.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes, I know. We've talked about this.

[Van Lathan]

Like, fucking gonna set some shit on fire.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't believe in the rioting. I will agree with Stephen A. Smith. Like, Max is right. It's not their stores, but it is their community. So, like, you're destroying your community in a sense, if it's a riot. But Max makes the point at the end where he's like, that's what the media is showing you. Most protests are peaceful. That's why I said, did Stephen A. Smith say the word protest? So in this round, maybe it's a tie, but if I had to lean, I'd give it to Max.

[Van Lathan]

I also would just like to say that, like, when you talk about people destroying their own community, you'd have to show me people like, you know, setting their homes on fire and all of that stuff. Like this. Most of this stuff is capital. Most of this stuff is capital.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So you don't think that if the places that you shop, the store is.

[Van Lathan]

A part of the community, depends on who owns it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I understand that thing, that concept. But if this is where you go every day and where you shop and where you, you know, like bring things into your own home, it's not part of your community. Even if you don't own it, you don't think that's destroying your neighborhood.

[Van Lathan]

Target is not a part of your community.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I guess I'm not thinking of a Target. I'm thinking of the mom and pop shop.

[Van Lathan]

It could be something the local grocery store. Understand the point that you are making and all of that stuff. A lot of this, I'm not thinking.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Walmart's entire.

Stores that are destroyed.

[Van Lathan]

That's. I don't know that you could say that. That. That's kind of not. You know what I mean? When people are doing the things that they're doing. By the way, I'm not in any way saying that people should go out and do. I'm just saying. But a lot of times when this stuff is talked. Talked about, the context is missing and it looks like a bunch of apes went out and destroyed their grandfather's home and all of that stuff. It's not true. It's never true.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I just don't even like when. That's why I want to cut off. When he said riot, you've already lost the plot. I do not like. It's when people start Throwing the word riot out there when we're talking about protests.

[NaNa]

Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You've already messed up the conversation.

[Van Lathan]

Well, some of that stuff involves civil disobedience. That is Turns into resistance to Kevin. Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But there's a connotation.

[Van Lathan]

Who won the debate? Who you gonna go with? 10, nine.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Max.

[Van Lathan]

God damn. Max is up two rounds. Okay. All right, let's go to sports real quick. Donnie is. This is LeBron James versus Kevin Durant. All right? This is a LeBron James versus Kevin Durant argument. Max versus Stephen A. Sports, basketball. Stephen A's wheelhouse.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes. And Max is taking the LeBron stance. And Stephen A. Is taking the Kevin Durant stance.

[Van Lathan]

Let's score this.

[Ad voiceover]

No, no, I said KD with Kyrie and Kevin Love.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I don't. Let's put it. I'll put it another way. Give LeBron James.

Answer.

[Ad voiceover]

Okay, fine.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So I'm getting some yelling.

[Ad voiceover]

That's why KD win the title with D. Wade and Chris Botch.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah, he probably gets at least 1.

[Ad voiceover]

Does KD win the title with Anthony Davis?

[Van Lathan]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Donnie]

Probably.

[Van Lathan]

I'm done.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know.

If you.

[Van Lathan]

Look, look, look, look.

[Max Kellerman]

There's no two ways about this. KD and the warriors looked at LeBron and they said, we won 73 games. We still couldn't get by this dude. And KD said, I'm with Westbrook and Ibaka and Steven Adams. I still can't get by this dude. They had to join forces to overcome LeBron, period. So LeBron can do more with less. That is true. That's why he's the best. I think that's fair to say.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think that's fair to say.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, Who. Who won that one?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think LeBron can do more with less. I think that's.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, you go for Max on that one.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think. I think that's.

[Van Lathan]

Wow.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think that that has been shown particularly with. When he went back to Cleveland.

[Van Lathan]

When did he. Okay, when who was on the team?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Kyrie, Kevin Love.

[Van Lathan]

The nigga had. What you mean? Like, didn't he? Like, he. Wherever LeBron has won.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who was on the bubble team?

[Van Lathan]

That was Anthony Davis. That was, you know. Oh, Dwight Howard. I think Rondo. A lot less. But what you're saying in that situation, that's in the bubble and that. That is him with another top 10, top.

15 player in the NBA. I'm.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You think Kevin. You think Kevin and Anthony could win a chance just having them come win a championship?

[Van Lathan]

Man, look, I'M gonna be real with you. I'm not going. I'm not. I'm the type of person. I'm not going downplay in any way what Kevin Durant's talent is possible. I know you didn't. But all I'm saying is, do I think that a pairing of Kevin Durant, a healthy Kevin Durant and a healthy Anthony Davis could win a championship?

[Donnie]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So, Stephen A, one for you.

[Van Lathan]

I gotta give this one to Stephen A.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

I gotta give this one to Stephen A.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because he's the basketball.

[Van Lathan]

He, like, in this situation, if arguing that Kevin Durant is better than LeBron James or whatever, or that LeBron James can do more with less, I don't know that LeBron James has ever done more with less. Certainly, if you look at the overall scheme of things, the Cleveland team was. The team in Cleveland was not the same as the Golden State Warriors. The Golden State warriors had stuff. They had a lot of stuff. But that Cleveland team never beat the Golden State warriors when the warriors had Kevin Durant. Right. They never beat them when they had.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Ken, sure, but they were stacked.

[Van Lathan]

But they had. They had Kyrie Irving and. And. And. And Kevin Love. The. I personally think that that was a upset because they were up 3:1. But when you look at the whole thing, I don't know that LeBron did more with less. They acting like LeBron did what, dirt. Nowitzki did dirt, did more with less. And that's not saying that Jason Terry and the rest of those guys weren't less. But he didn't have another hall of Famer superstar. He had Jason Kidd later. Jason Kidd. That's more with less. You could argue that Jokic has done, like, more with less. But even that less, he still got a gang of dogs. He's still got Aaron Gordon. He's still got Jamal Murray. All of that. I'm gonna get that one to Stephen. Okay. All right. Last one is not.

Necessarily Stephen A versus Max. It's just when I was searching this, this came up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You have to put this one in there.

[Van Lathan]

And this is the most.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's the most famous one.

[Van Lathan]

Jay likes this. This is fucking hilarious. Play it. Stephen A versus Terrell Owens.

[Ad voiceover]

Your lawyer. And your lawyer wants to stand up there and say, this waiver is an issue we are ready to work out, but not until they alter this waiver, et cetera, that's different. But to not do the workout, to change locations, and then to go and give a speech to the media without taking any questions, any inquiry as to what's really going on. You are leaving others to surmise what the hell happened.

[Max Kellerman]

Can I answer that real quick? Do you mind if I jump into you?

[Ad voiceover]

Yes, before you do that, but go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

What I wanted is transparency. Stephen A. And that's like I've done it.

[Ad voiceover]

I've had incidents throughout.

[Van Lathan]

Throughout the course of my career and then there have been times where I've tried. I've gone into interviews where I've done an hour and a half, two hours.

[NaNa]

Of an interview and then they break.

[Ad voiceover]

Down and they edit and then you.

[Van Lathan]

Guys get on, get on the show and there's a panel of people and then they break down whatever clips that they show, they're not showing the entire.

[Ad voiceover]

Hour and a half or two hours of that.

[Van Lathan]

Of that interview that I've done. So what he wanted was transparency for people to see the full workout, to see the full.

[Ad voiceover]

Colin Kaepernick again, you mentioned.

[Van Lathan]

Obviously Max is going to get in.

[NaNa]

Here and like I said, I'm in the streets.

[Van Lathan]

Max almost seems blacker than you. Stephen A. With. With. With.

[Ad voiceover]

With what he with.

[Van Lathan]

He's coming, you know, with this commentary.

[Ad voiceover]

With all due respect, my brother, I'm just saying though.

[Van Lathan]

Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

[Ad voiceover]

I'm just saying I'm a check check you right now.

[Van Lathan]

I'm just saying.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You don't cross the line.

[Van Lathan]

We don't have time for the whole thing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Max kind of wins because he knew to shut the up. Max said, go ahead.

[Ad voiceover]

I gotta get.

[Van Lathan]

Out with the Max. Because Max not even in this. But at that point, Max, Max said he wanted to say something. T. Oh, who? Man, shout out to my nigga. Man, shout out to Tio. But Tio knew that he was about to drop a ball.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He came on to say that and.

[Van Lathan]

He dropped that bomb. And Stephen A. I've never seen Stephen A. Smith at any time be more affected by a single statement than he was. But he.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And rightfully so, that's like one of them rightfully so. That's a damning thing to say because he's right. Again, I have very positive experience personally with Stephen A. Smith. I know the things that he has done publicly and behind closed doors for black people. And for Terrell Owens to go on there and just throw that blanket statement out there, I would be very offended by it. Because Stephen A. Knew in that moment it wasn't that. He just said, you're not black. He said, your white co host is blacker than you. He knew in that moment it was out of his hands. He Knew it was viral. Everyone's gonna be making fun of him. They were gonna start digging stuff up. It was such an unfair statement to make that I understand his exact reaction to it. And Stephen A. Wins that for me.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, Stephen A. Wins that. Okay, that's. That's fine. I will say this, though. Stephen A. Did have a tendency on the show, for whatever reason, and maybe Max was pandering. I. I'll. Maybe I'll get the chance to ask him, man, he used to make Max look like Malcolm X on that bitch, bro. I'm not playing, man. It. It would be like. Like, it wouldn't just be on issues directly of race. It would be on issues that were in any way social or cultural. And that maybe that was because there was a generational divide. They're not that much apart in age. Maybe seven years, seven, five, six, seven years or something. But, like, Stephen A. Would come out and say something like, you know, women need to make sure that they dress right. And Max would be like, you wear whatever you want. And that's not. They didn't actually say that. But he used to make Stephen A.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes, conservative.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. He used to make Max look a, like, black leader on this. Remember, there was one time Stephen. They were all talking and Snoop was up there, and Snoop was saying, amen, brother to Max Kellerman. As Max Kellerman argued with Stephen A. Smith. I personally think that that more than anything is the reason why Max is up there anymore. Because. No. So Max. The reason why Max ain't there anymore. Yeah. The debates was one thing, but there was a lot of high leverage social and cultural issues that were happening on First Take. And the. The contrast between a white guy saying this stuff.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

A white dude making Stephen A. Look kind of like that. That's uncomfortable. If you're up there and it's you and Ryan or you and Jason or you and Perk. I'll tell you somebody else who. Stephen A. Did not particularly like the way he looked in arguments and debates with them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who?

[Van Lathan]

J.J. redick.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah. That was the thing.

[Van Lathan]

Did like. Didn't particularly like arguments or debates with that person. For whatever reason, the optics kind of look bad. People say that Stephen A. Matt, he said, look black. It might be because Stephen A. Doesn't like the way that that looks. That he was like, get the out of here. He didn't do that to J.J. but like, with Max, if you across a thing from a white guy and a white guy is basically giving you, you know, Medgar Evers, you coming back on your other It's. That's. That's tough, man.

[Donnie]

It's tough.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But. But like, TL should not have said that.

[Van Lathan]

That's funny. I don't think he should have said it either, especially on live tv, like, to the man, like, I don't think he should have said that either.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And then the smile he had on his face after he said it and was like.

[Van Lathan]

I think in Stephen A's entire response, he actually sobered. Sober to up a little bit and was like, hey, man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He did.

[Van Lathan]

I think in the entire response. If you watch it and maybe to realize that. But in that moment. That's one of them get you. That's one of them get you. Okay, so we. We had four rounds. You got three rounds to one Max Kellerman.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I mean, I do. I think that makes him Muhammad Ali. I'm sorry. Muhammad Kellerman. No, but.

He was. I. When I say I miss old first take. There were healthy debates on. On.

[Van Lathan]

No, they weren't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They were fun debates.

[Van Lathan]

The show is an abomination back then. Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, like, I like old first take. You won't take that away from me.

[Van Lathan]

I feel you. But it is. It was entertaining.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what I'm saying.

[Van Lathan]

The. The hot take. Ification of sports media has been just an abject disaster now. No, just like. But this is what led to it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, But I liked the OG part of it. I thought it was very entertaining. I missed that. Do I think that you can do it this way now? No, it's not the same. But at the time, I liked this. I missed this.

[Van Lathan]

My favorite first take. Don't invol Showdown involves Jalen Rose.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know you were gonna say that.

[Van Lathan]

Water pistol peach.

Who are you to talk to me? That shit. Who are you to talk to me? You tell me. You act like I'm not the man, man. Jalen Rose, bro. Shout out to Jalen Rose. How can you sit across the table from me? You can give your basketball opinion, but you're talking about my career. I played 16 years in the NBA. I was getting and 20 a game. Who are you talking to? Who the do you think you are? If.

[Max Kellerman]

If we were.

[Van Lathan]

If right now. And this is the. That I don't like. And this is. This is the part of it that I make about race right now. If Jalen Rose or whomever else is going to go at Skip Bayless or any of these guys about writing columns and doing all of that, they're not going to do that. They respect their place in media and all of that stuff. But to sit across from somebody. And this happened with Chris Carter. This happened to Shannon Sharpe. To sit across from somebody and have them tell you about you when you didn't blocked when you didn't score, you scored in the NBA. Jalen Rose is sitting across from Skip Bayless and Skip Bayless is telling Jalen Rose about his career and what more Jalen Rose should do when Skip Bayless could not be a dog on his high school basketball team.

[Rachel Lindsay]

These are the, these are the stats that Jalen Rose came, that came with for Skip. He averaged 1.4 points as a senior. He played junior varsity as a junior juniors. And then he called him Water Pistol Pete junior.

[Van Lathan]

Did you average.

We gotta go. We gotta go. Jaylen was waiting. Jalen was like, did you, did you, did you, did you play as a, as a junior? You averaged 1.5 points a game? Yeah, Pistol Pete, Water Pistol Pete Junior. And then skip Bayless had the. I'm about to be like Stephen A. Smith had the unmitigated goal to get his feelings hurt after years, after years of using pejoratives and insulting terms to describe all of these different athletes, they had to have a two day long cultural therapy session because Skip felt insulted.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And he pretty much from the show. Yeah, but the, but the, the, the funniest part too is the reason Jalen responded that way is because Skip was implying that he knew had a deep understanding of basketball because of his high school playing days.

[Van Lathan]

I guess, I guess we, I guess I do miss the old first day. That's what we found out. Thank you to NA Na. Thanks to the Na Na's homies who are actually from Drippy's Window Cleaning Service. So I don't know if you thought.

[Rachel Lindsay]

These guys in the Los Angeles servicing.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know if you could thought those guys were some way with the shits and that they might be, but they are with Drippy's Window Cleaning Service where you could go and get power washing, concrete staining, solar panel cleaning and more. So if you need it, go to Josh Happens.

Josh Happens. J O S H A P P e n s gmail dot com. That's Gmail with two Ls. Brother, fix this card, man.

They have. He know that you. They know Gmail. He know that they know Gmail. So shout out to them great brothers. Go. Go support their business. If you're here and you need window cleaning here in Los Angeles, you know what I'm saying? Before we go, Rach, how you feel like you responded in that situation? How you Feel like you responded.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I feel like there were a lot of things going on. You know, the situation, the environment really affects how you respond. Because I had a lot of things going on in my head. Like, if that had been in my house and there were no cameras and, sorry, there were no white people around, I think it would have been a little bit different. But in my mind, first off, I was like, why did Vance say that in his head? Like, I was so annoyed with you saying it. Cause I'm like, that is so offensive. So when the homie was like, what you mean, Little nigga like that, I was like, I knew you took his side. I knew that he was. I was like. I knew. I knew he was gonna get offended. And then I kept thinking, how does Van not see that? That's not okay to say. I just couldn't. And I thought.

[Van Lathan]

So you were on. You were with them?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I just thought, oh, he's fucking with them. He's fucking with. He's, like, doing his thing. He knows, Nana. He's fucking with him. Like, he knows that it's not coming off right. But then when he stood up, I mean, they sold it. When he stood up, I was like, fuck is three against one? The cameras are. The cameras are rolling. There are white people in here. I have to remain calm. No, I was like, for the white people. Well, I just was like, we were having this moment for the culture, and I was like, I have to remain calm. How do I defuse the situation? What do I do if one of them hits Van? But then I kept thinking, why is everybody so quiet? And I thought, oh, my God, they're scared. They're scared. They don't know what to do. Rachel, remain calm. Like, I kept telling myself to remain calm. And then I finally was just, like, got in front of the camera, like, we gotta stop this. We gotta stop this. But if it had kept going, I would've been like, open the door.

[Van Lathan]

See, but this is my thing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I wasn't gonna jump in unless you actually.

[Van Lathan]

You ain't trying to break it up. You ain't trying to do Donnie.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Three grown men. And I'm gonna stand in there at the point was just arguing. You don't get involved with. I'm not gonna jump in the middle of grown men arguing. But had it gotten physical, you got.

[Van Lathan]

You know what you gotta do. You gotta step in the way and you gotta use your divine.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What would you have done if I would have been like, that's why I always keep her.

[Van Lathan]

That's the type of Shit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That would have been so good. See, y' all should have let me in on that, and I would have been like. And that's why I always. You would have been shook.

[Van Lathan]

So you've pranked me, I've pranked you. We now gotta start doing something where we prank the guests. That's better.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. All right.

[Van Lathan]

When we prank the guests, we prank the guests on higher learning. You never know, you know? Safe. Donnie, how did you feel like Rachel's response was?

[Donnie]

He should be proud. I think she showed up. Good.

[Rachel Lindsay]

How many of y' all thought I was gonna call for security? Be honest.

[Donnie]

No, I didn't think.

[Van Lathan]

I didn't think he was gonna call for security. I was really trying to see. I was interested. I had no clue of what you was gonna do. No clue.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I remained calm in the situation.

[Van Lathan]

You did. You ain't trying to help me, but you did not freak out either.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I got out of my seat. Now, if I had stood here the whole time and been like this. Yeah, you need to talk about me.

[Van Lathan]

All right, cool. Taything caps off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathan Jr.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Hi, guys.

[Van Lathan]

Sam.