MAGA Regrets, Marjorie Taylor Greene’s Apology, and Pharrell’s Philosophy

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: MAGA Regrets, Marjorie Taylor Greene’s Apology, and Pharrell’s Philosophy
Date: November 18, 2025

Episode Overview

In this lively, wide-ranging episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay dissect issues spanning Black women in pop, MAGA defections, Marjorie Taylor Greene’s latest rebrand, viral Epstein conspiracy rumors, Michelle Obama’s pessimism on a female president, Pharrell’s philosophy on race and merit, and more. With their characteristic mix of sharp analysis and high-energy debate, Van and Rachel challenge each other—and their audience—to grapple with the cultural complexities at the crossroads of Blackness, politics, and music.

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Key Discussion Topics & Insights

1. Black Pop Girlies: Gatekeeping and Double Standards (00:09–19:15)

• Van opens by praising Sabrina Carpenter’s “Taste,” sparking a conversation on the freedom White pop stars enjoy to be provocative versus their Black counterparts.
• Van’s thesis: Black female pop artists like Chloe Bailey, Normani, or Tyla still face unique pressures—often from within the Black community—not to be “too sexual” or controversial, unlike their White peers.
  • Quote: “Let the black pop girlies be as controversial and envelope pushing as everyone else… let them have a little bit of the controversy.” —Van Lathan (02:25)
• Rachel challenges this, attributing the constraints to industry and white audiences, not necessarily the Black community:
  • Quote: “It's the industry that... if you told me the industry stopped it, but our own community stopping them—I do not agree.” —Rachel Lindsay (03:31)
• They debate examples: Chloe Bailey as an outlier who received community backlash, but Rachel asserts SZA, Doja Cat, Kehlani, and Normani have faced far more barriers from mainstream (i.e., white) industry, not Black fans.
• Van’s counter: Acceptance in Black audiences is still essential to any Black artist’s crossover.
  • Quote: “The authenticity of a Black act is in its connection to Black people.” —Van Lathan (16:42)

2. MAGA Regrets & Defections: Should We Welcome Defectors? (20:36–38:29)

• Clip: Reverend Jordan Wells (formerly “the Black MAGA preacher”) denounces MAGA due to its overt racism but maintains conservative politics.
• Van erupts in laughter at Wells’ complaint about “the guy who leads the conservatives with polls,” amusingly misidentified as a “Rasmussen” pollster.
• Rachel’s critical response: She’s unmoved by Wells’ change of heart, seeing it as opportunism and performative.
  • Quote: “He took pride in being Black and MAGA. He thought that made him popular... I really could care less about Reverend Jordan Wells.” —Rachel Lindsay (25:38)
• Broader debate: Should the left embrace MAGA defectors?
  • Van: References Cold War defectors—useful, but must be watched closely.
    • Quote: “There is a method... when someone is defecting, you accept that defector and give them a soft bed to lay in.” (29:18)
  • Rachel: Accept only true defectors—those who denounce MAGA/Trump, not those merely voicing regrets yet planning to support Trump again (like the lumber mill owners hurt by tariffs at 33:04).
    • Quote: “There’s a difference between those who regret and those who actually defect.”

3. Marjorie Taylor Greene’s “Apology” and Political Rebranding (46:23-51:54)

• Clip played: Marjorie Taylor Greene apologizes for “toxic politics,” claims to be “putting down the knives,” and calls for unity.
• Rachel comes out swinging: She refuses to rate the apology—saying it’s non-existent and devoid of real accountability.
  • Quote: “I’m not rating it. I don’t give a shit about what Marjorie Taylor Greene has to say right now. I don’t.” —Rachel (46:43)
  • Rachel notes MTG refuses to own up to specific election denialism and other offensive actions, suggesting her new “moderation” is performative for political gain post-Trump rejection.
• Van agrees: Apology NA (not applicable)—“she’s got to do a lot more to convince people her worldview has changed.”

4. Epstein, Trump, and Viral Conspiracies (53:04–58:02)

• Van discusses: Leaked emails between Jeffrey Epstein’s brother and Epstein, referencing an “inside joke” about Trump and Bill Clinton.
• Van jokingly speculates, for the humor, that “Donald Trump sucked Bill Clinton’s dick,” lampooning the way right-wing media believes in and spreads baseless rumors.
  • Quote: “I choose to believe that Donald Trump sucked Bill Clinton’s dick. And that is my choice… I can’t be canceled for it!” —Van Lathan (54:01)
• Rachel, nonplussed but supportive: “I’m happy that you are choosing to believe what you want to believe and not letting other people dictate that for you.”

5. Michelle Obama on America’s “Readiness” for a Woman President (58:13–71:44)

• Clip played: Michelle Obama, promoting her new book “Look,” says America still isn’t ready for a female president, drawing on Kamala Harris’s experience.
  • Quote: “As we saw in this past election, sadly, we ain't ready. That's why I'm like, don't even look at me about running because you all are lying. You're not ready for a woman. You are not.” —Michelle Obama (58:20)
• Rachel wholeheartedly agrees: Believes misogyny and racism keep America from electing women, citing conversations she had with voters post-election.
• Van’s nuanced take: While agreeing, he points out America’s never “ready”—progress always comes from disruptive, extraordinary individuals who seize moments of crisis.
  • Quote: “America is never ready, never going to be ready… You always have to take it. You always have to force it.” —Van Lathan (64:01)
• Rachel: Even beloved figures like Michelle Obama would face insurmountable barriers in a presidential run.

6. Pharrell’s Philosophy: Racial Meritocracy vs. Structural Barriers (73:35–89:24)

• Clip played: Pharrell, after receiving a key to Miami, iterates distrust of both political sides, skepticism of DEI, arguing Black folks should focus on being “the best” rather than relying on identity-based opportunities.
  • Quote: “Should support these businesses… based on the thesis that we're the best, not because we are a total shade of a skin color.” —Pharrell (74:36)
• Van critiques Pharrell’s stance:
  • Points out fame and success can disconnect Black creatives from community realities; Pharrell benefits from a system that is deeply political.
  • Quote: “The geniuses that you have given prodigious wealth to… they are not in community with you… It doesn’t matter what they say.” —Van Lathan (84:30)
• Rachel's rebuttal: It’s a choice to disconnect from community struggles—though Pharrell is privileged, he can choose to stay engaged.
  • Quote: “They have chosen to not understand you… you are making a choice to detach yourself from it.” —Rachel Lindsay (85:39)
• Shared conclusion: True meritocracy is impossible in a rigged system; talent alone is not always enough in America.

7. NYC Mayor Eric Adams’s Awkward Speech in Israel (96:45–102:33)

• Clip played: Adams says he “serves” Israel during a trip—Van and Rachel riff on the optics and political risks.
• Van uses a personal anecdote to explain when allies “try too hard” and end up being counterproductive, comparing it to Adams’s performativity.
  • Quote: “Don’t say that you were serving somebody other than the citizens of New York when you’re the mayor of New York.” —Van (97:47)
• Rachel: “It just feels performative.”

8. Van’s Childhood Flirtation with Conservatism (102:33–110:22)

• Van tells a vivid story about being briefly swayed by Rush Limbaugh at age 12, before “radicalizing” after learning about Limbaugh’s racism.
  • His mother’s response: offering him Malcolm X’s autobiography—a turning point for Van.
  • Quote: “Young Van, radicalized. That was my last time [with conservatism]—just kept getting worse…. (110:01)

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Notable Quotes by Segment

On Black pop culture double standards:

• “Let the black pop girlies be as controversial and envelope pushing as everyone else.” —Van (02:25)
  On MAGA defectors:
• “There’s a difference between those people who have regrets...and those people who say, ‘I was wrong and now I'm gonna come over.’” —Rachel (31:16)
  On Marjorie Taylor Greene:
• “I’m not rating it. I don’t give a shit about what Marjorie Taylor Greene has to say.” —Rachel (46:43)
  On Michelle Obama & female presidents:
• “As we saw in this past election, sadly, we ain’t ready… You’re not ready for a woman. You are not.” —Michelle Obama (58:20)
• “America is never ready, never going to be ready… You have to take it. You have to force it.” —Van (64:01)
  On Pharrell’s meritocracy take:
• “It’s about us having the best ambition… you should support these businesses based on the thesis that we’re the best, not because of our skin color.” —Pharrell (74:36)
• “There is an intellectual… or an activist that would love for you … to pay attention to the work that they’re doing… as much as we pay attention to all of these other people.” —Van (84:30)
  On Mayor Eric Adams (in Israel):
• “Don’t say you’re serving someone other than the citizens of New York when you’re the mayor of New York.” —Van (97:47)

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Timestamped Highlights

• 00:09–19:15: Black women in pop and double standards
• 20:36–38:29: MAGA regrets and “defectors”—how should progressives respond?
• 46:23–51:54: Marjorie Taylor Greene’s apology, performative or genuine?
• 53:04–58:02: Epstein-Trump-Clinton rumors & Van’s comedic “beliefs”
• 58:13–71:44: Michelle Obama, Kamala Harris, and the challenge of a woman president
• 73:35–89:24: Pharrell's philosophy on being "the best", DEI, and America’s myth of meritocracy
• 96:45–102:33: Mayor Adams’s Israel speech, embarrassment, and performativity
• 102:33–110:22: Van’s childhood brush with conservatism and awakening

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Tone and Style

• Van: Playful, sharp, sometimes irreverent (“I choose to believe Trump sucked Clinton’s d**k…”), insistent on cultural introspection, always eager to turn debate into a teachable moment.
• Rachel: Direct, often indignant, focused on accountability and community impact, ever ready to push back (especially on issues of race/gender).

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In Summary

The episode is a sprawling, energetic, and sharply critical tour through culture, politics, and the peculiarities of race and gender in America. Van and Rachel’s dynamic—alternately comic and confrontational—gives listeners a rich, honest set of perspectives on the week’s hot topics. Their willingness to dig into uncomfortable topics, challenge famous figures, and sometimes each other, makes for an engaging, must-listen conversation for anyone tracking Black life and politics in 2025.

Transcript

[Van Lathan]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up? I learned is on is Ivan Lathan.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[Van Lathan]

I ride for Sabrina Carpenter.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did you go last night? No, I was supposed to. I couldn't. Listen to my voice.

[Van Lathan]

She's gonna. She's gonna do something and we're gonna have to, like, not like her.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What makes you like her so much? What do you do? Like the music?

[Van Lathan]

She a little. She a little toxic ass troublemaker. I fuck with that. I listened to that record taste this morning. Okay?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I like when you. When you in your pop girl.

[Van Lathan]

She. I'm in my pop girl era, man. Sabrina Carpenter a little. She was telling that chick ain't shit. You could do this motherfucker. He loves me. He. You always gonna be tasting me. And I'm like, well, this little toxic ass gangster.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Her music is good.

[Van Lathan]

Toxic gangster? Little. Little cupcake gangster. That's her. That's her nickname.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She's a little strawberry shortcake.

[Van Lathan]

Little strawberry shortcake gangster. What's your little gangster ass. What you talking about?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I like it too, because I just feel like the way she's very, you know, confident and sexual with her lyrics and even like the innuendos in her performance, and I actually appreciate, like, the type of space that she takes up in pop culture music. And I feel like maybe a few years ago she couldn't do that. Even with her second album, the Man Child. Some people tried to see, like, on her hands and knees and there's a man pulling her, pulling her head.

[Van Lathan]

That's not from this record. That's not this one.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what I said. This new album is the Man Child.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I just love that she's able to be that type of artist. I'm upset I did not get to go to her concert last night. She was here at Crypto.

[Van Lathan]

I've thought about this. We have a great crop of young black pop girlies.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Black pop girlies?

[Van Lathan]

Well, for the last couple of years, right? You had Normani, you had Chloe Bailey, you had Coco Jones, you have a lot of young black.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is that pop culture was definitely R.

[Van Lathan]

And B, but it's R and B pop together. I want people to do something real quick. Free the black pop girlies. And let me tell you what I mean. Free them. So the Sabrina Carpenters, the Chapel rowans, the Tate McCraes, they are very free to come out and push cultural limits, be hyper sexy, be right in your face and do all of that stuff. And the music ends up ballooning into all of these things that Are a little bit controversial and all just what pop people have been. I feel like sometimes we hold our black girlies back.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is it us or is it the industry?

[Van Lathan]

I think it's us. Because when they get a little too sexy, when they get a little bit too controversial, we kind of put them in a little church girl box a little bit. And we don't. At least for them, like Rihanna got there and Beyonce got there. Beyonce actually kind of broke out of the mold in her 30s. But let the black pop girlies be as controversial and envelope pushing as everyone else. So we're not looking at them and judging their music and judging who they are. About whether or not these are women that we will want to take home to mom or whether or not they're not being to anything. Let them have a little bit of the controversy. I feel like we feel like we, we, we. We got them a little bit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I do not think that at all. I think if anything, it's the industry that. If you told me the industry stopped it, but our own community stopping them. I do not agree. Because we know it's acceptable for women rappers, right? Women rappers are able to be as explicit and as sexual in their lyrics, in their outfits, in their performances. And nobody says any. I mean, people say something. There's always gonna people who say something, but it hasn't stopped them from pursuing their career. If you look at the pop girlies like a Kalani, Kehlani or a Tyla, these people, nobody's stopping them. Oh, I can't say Tyler.

[Van Lathan]

Tyla was definitely stopped.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Tyler was stopped because she couldn't identify. She didn't identify herself.

[Van Lathan]

This is kind of what I'm talking about. So.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But nobody's making her a church girl. Nobody's telling her she can't be sexual in her. They caught on to her for a.

[Van Lathan]

Cultural reason, but that's part of it, right? Look, we got on Tyler too. I like, I got on Tyler. Here's the deal. That's the thing. That's actually part of what I'm talking about. It's not just that they can't push the envelope in terms of their. Their sexuality or whatever I'm talking about. There's a lot of needles that these young women have to thread. It definitely happened with Kehlani, like all kinds of stuff. And I think sometimes some of the ways that we protect each other. The rap thing is different. I'll tell you why. There's an advantage that the sexual. The sexualized rap girl has that the sexualized, sexualized pop Girl doesn't have. The sexualized rap girl is existing in a space where the music has to be so overly aggressive and so to the point that you can't even be a nice girl in rap. They don't want that. And another thing is the bodacious way that these women are built. Sometimes the men just like to look at them. They are outwardly objectified, but in rap, that's palatable. Like, all of that stuff is almost overdone in rap. In pop, there seems to be an expectation of some of these younger women, women of, if not chastity. I don't even know how to really describe what it is that I'm saying. There's a perfection. It's not even one thing. There's a perfection like that you think.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Comes from our community.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, there's a. There's a. There's a whole. This is what I'm saying. When sometimes, when we expect you to be a nice girl, when we expect you to be polished, there's a standard that can sometimes be suffocating the best.

[Rachel Lindsay]

To your point, the only example that I can truly think of that happening, where there was this expectation that as a pop girl, you needed to be this kind of way from a black artist from our community is Chloe Bailey. Because of how she came on the scene, and we talked about it here, we were like, leave Chloe Bailey alone. Because of how we saw her grow up with her sister, and they're, you know, harmonizing and singing these songs. And there was no. There was no transition. It was, boom. We woke up one day, actually. She was doing it on social media first, and then, boom. All of a sudden we have her licking things and dressing a certain way and dancing a certain way and cry. And it was like, oh, this is the artist that she wants to be. And people couldn't handle that. That was the most overt thing that I saw within the pop girl, black pop girl thing. I don't see that with the others. Sza, Doja Cat, Kehlani, Normani. Who else did I just say?

[Van Lathan]

Doja Cat, definitely. Doja Cat. Tylus, Doja Cat is so. It's so interesting that you would bring up Doja Cat. They tried it with Doja Cat. They tried. Doja Cat was tried. They tried to other Doja Cat out of the culture. But why? Because she has too many white fans.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But. Or is it because of all the stuff she was doing before?

[Van Lathan]

Stuff that she was doing. Look, I'm not saying that we haven't had conversations that were needed to be had I'm not saying that, but what I'm saying is the reason why Doja Cat did not get othered out is because the music is really good. Which we haven't talked about that. But also, she has a lot of white fans. And those fans were like, oh, you know what? Fuck it, y'. All. Don't fuck with her. We'll fuck with her. Right? This is my. This is my deal. The archetype of the young pop star, the young pop lady. There's a lot of talent out there. I'll say again, these ladies gotta be able to push the envelope a little bit. They gotta be able to offend us a little bit. They gotta be able to do all of this stuff a little bit. And I just. To me, I think they do, but I don't think. Okay, tell me who are the young pop ladies? And remember, when you talk about Sza and Kalani, these are people that have been around for, like, 10 years.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay? Normani. Normani. When Normani performs.

[Van Lathan]

I know, but Normani. But they're not responding to Normani in the same way Normani does.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But is that us or is that Normani? Like, let's just be honest. Is that us or is that. There was a lot of hype with Normani. A lot of hype. She was everywhere. Whether it was in a music video, dancing with someone on a red car. Like, there was so much. And then when the music. I just think it just didn't hit. It didn't meet me.

[Van Lathan]

Is Tay McCray's music like that?

[Rachel Lindsay]

They have a different.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I know. I'm just saying, though, it's like, there's a part of this that. What I'm trying to say is that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They glorify mediocrity in a way that necessarily.

[Van Lathan]

What I'm saying is we gotta. This is my only point. We gotta let the young black pop girlies have some fun. And I don't think that we let them have the rap ladies. We. Not. We let them. We. That is. I'm talking about fun rap ladies. Yeah, you're right. That's a solid point. But even them. Cause their music is not at all hot.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Can I say this?

[Van Lathan]

Like the rap girls that you're talking about, they're all fun. Because if I'm being honest, a lot of the music that's coming from a lot of these rap ladies that are celebrities, this music sucks.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Can I say this, though? I think so. My biggest thing with what you're saying is, is that you make it seem as if the black Community is holding them back. This is where I disagree with you.

[Van Lathan]

Not the black is a cultural thing. I feel like a cultural change.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't think it's us. I think it is white people. And I think that white people are willing to accept the Meg the stallions and the Cardi Bs and them putting themselves out there in that way more than they are the people who aren't as sexual because there's the stereotype of what historically black women have been.

[Van Lathan]

I have never heard a white person with an opinion on Chloe Bailey. What are you talking about?

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're not listening to me. I said that's my point, is that they, the other ones, they are willing to accept the rap music from black women because it fits into a stereotype in the way that they perform, in the way that they sexualize themselves that they're okay with. My argument is that it is not us, it is the industry. It is the others. When it comes to the pop stars, they aren't necessarily as much that way. And I don't think that they're as into their music because they're okay accepting a black woman who sexualizes herself or fits into their idea of what black women are versus a Normani who is still, you know, she's very confident and she's sexual, but not as to a level as a Meg thee stallion. I don't think they support it as.

[Van Lathan]

Much, but this argument is inconsistent. We talked about the response that we talked about the response that we had as a community to Chloe Bailey. Like Chloe Bailey.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like I said, that's the only example I can give you. Okay, but that was my giving you one.

[Van Lathan]

To me, I have more like it. So I'm not contradicting myself when Normani. Well, you're contradicting yourself insofar as you're saying that it's white people who won't allow these women to express their sexuality and stuff like that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's been my whole argument, is that it's not the black community holding pop stars back. It's the industry. It's white people. That's been a whole argument like being right. You can disagree, but I'm not being inconsistent.

[Van Lathan]

You are, and let me tell you why. So what we talked about when you. When we talked about you said so when you said that Chloe Bailey came out and that she was licking ice cream cones and doing all of that, you saying that that was too much for white people?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I was saying, to your point, Chloe is the only artist that is a black pop star that I See that. I don't agree with that with the rest of them. I was giving you Chloe.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so let me tell you why I do see it. And it's not just necessarily in one specific thing. What I do see though, is that there being this entire sort of range and spectrum of young white pop stars that are out there, chaperone, being able to be this sort of gender bending, like androgynous, really pushing the limit. Would an artist like that be accepted amongst the black community? No, they wouldn't. They would not accept that artist. They wouldn't accept it. Like they, they. They would accept that artist in other places. Right? To your point when Thug first comes out and it's all like this. Thug does that and Thug could get it. Rap is. They might accept it after a while. And they try not to. They tried to do that with him. They might accept it with, with Uzi, right? After a while. They might accept it there. But the black, the young black lady pop star, they want them, to me to be a little cookie cutter, particularly in like a Beyonce, Rihanna world. Like, Rihanna got there after evolving into, okay, good girl gone bad. Like years and years and years, the ladies that are coming up behind them, I just see. I don't know what it is that we want from them, but it does seem like there is sort of a way that we, we want them to be now. And this, this is across. This is in all the different types of ways that these types of artists exist. It's not just their chastity, it's their, their, their freeness, their I don't give a fuckness, their. All of this stuff. It's. And they kind of try to exist in these lines as well. Like, we have the conversation with Tyler, we can't really have the conversation with Tyler and let Tyler speak for herself. Like, Tyler does that thing, she fucks it up. And then the, the people behind her in the Breakfast Club interview, they take over and they go, ah, we don't want to talk about that anymore. No, they supposed to challenge you a little bit. You're supposed to like, even Chaperone. Chaperone came out and pissed her fans off. She pissed them off. She's supposed to be a little dangerous. She's like a. She's a. She's supposed to be a little dangerous. Sabrina Carpenter comes out, pisses her fan off. Supposed to be a little dangerous. Supposed to fuck. Fuck with you a little bit. I just, My personal opinion, and I definitely don't think, I think a part of these people, the white community, doesn't even have an opinion on, like, I don't think the white opinion. I don't think white people have an opinion on Coco Jones or Corey Bay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I completely agree.

[Van Lathan]

I don't think they. So I don't think it has anything to do with them. There's not an artist out there, to me, rap or pop, that does not have to be accepted by black audiences first.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So there's not a white.

[Van Lathan]

A black artist. There's not a black artist out there that maybe country, maybe like Shaboozy, right? That. You have to. You have to be accepted by black audiences first. You have to be 24 karat gold with black audiences. 24 karat gold. Donald Glover, maybe not with black audiences. And then they go, oh, okay, we'll make you into a thing. If. If the industry, the white industry or whatever does not see a total acceptance from black audiences for a black act.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, there's several people you named Donald. You could say that about Tyler.

[Van Lathan]

You could say Tyler, the creator when.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He first started out. That one black people gave the okay.

[Van Lathan]

It definitely was. It was black people and white people, but it definitely was. That was hip hop. So it definitely was.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know a lot of black people that would bump an odd future like that.

[Van Lathan]

But you weren't around. You said yourself.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I said I wasn't as a fan, but it's not like I didn't know who he was, but I didn't have. I wasn't in my friend groups. Cause it's not like I'm not around black people. Nobody was talking about odd future like that. It was white people who I would hear talk about Tyler, But I mean. Oh, I just don't think that it was the black people that gave the okay for Tyler to. But whatever. We can disagree.

[Van Lathan]

I'm like, I'm gonna be real with you when. Cause Frank Ocean comes out of that crew.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Frank Ocean, Gotta name him.

[Van Lathan]

Well, he's our future.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I mean, like, I think black people. Yes. Can be.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, okay, so let's. Our future is Tyler. Our future is Sid. And the Internet comes out of our future later. There's all kinds of people that were Tyler, Earl, like Earl, all of those people. I'm not saying that they did not have the multiracial coalition of the white skater kids and all of that. They did. But that would not matter. None of that would matter if black people weren't fucking with it. Like, none of that. Like, none of that would matter if black people weren't fucking with it. Cause last Thing I said, we spent too much time on this. But, like, the authenticity of a black act is in its connection to black people. And when these white executives are. And this is in movies too, when these white executives are looking at who they put their money behind, they looking at who's real, they looking at who they know. That's why the drill thing became about which artists had killed the most people, actually, because they going to places in Chicago and Jacksonville and Brooklyn and the Bronx and all of that stuff like that. And they're going, okay, who are the realest fucking shooters that we know? Okay, we're gonna put some money behind them and all of that stuff. All I'm saying is there is a responsibility, a specific responsibility culturally, that black people have to nurture not only the inventiveness of the acts that we. That we support, but also let them be acts. Like, don't give Tyla a pass culturally. But I do feel like I was probably too hard on her and I didn't have an understanding of South African culture and all of that. When she said that, I also think that she should have been more willing to have the conversation about how that was gonna reflect to us 100%. But they did her. They did her. They did Tyla.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Cause they felt like she did them.

[Van Lathan]

Exactly. And all I'm saying is in this situation, when I see the Taste record, I feel like that record actually makes more sense for a young black lady to sing. When I hear that record, I'm like, but I'm wondering if Taste, the song by Sabrina Carpenter, where she's talking all of that shit, if that was a young black lady, if that was her Nomani record, they wouldn't even accept that. They wouldn't accept that. Niggas would be going crazy. This was wrong with black women and all of that stuff.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We can agree to disagree.

[Van Lathan]

There you go.

[Rachel Lindsay]

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[Van Lathan]

Donnie.

[Donnie]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

The more that the shit is the same. Hey, hey.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, he's talking to Donnie, not you.

[Van Lathan]

You know what? Nobody asked you to yell at us, okay? What the fuck is going on? What's going on with you right now? All right, let me take it down.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm excited.

[Donnie]

The more that the shit hits the fan. Across the country, MAGA voters continue to express their regret. Let's hear from Reverend Jordan Wells, formerly known as the Black MAGA preacher, who had this to say.

[Van Lathan]

This is gonna be a little longer video. But I made a decision today that I am done. I changed my name from the Black MAGA preacher to Reverend Jordan Wells, which is what I am, a reverend, and my name is Jordan Wells. I had to, because as a Christian, I. That is what led me into politics. I was a pastor. I was not thinking about politics. It had no interest in it at all. And my faith. That led me into politics. And I'm still in politics. I. I have to fight for this country like Dietrich Bonhoeffer did, even though Tucker attacked him to the very last instance of this country. I will fight for conservative, for conservatism. But the new right in our car that is trying to take over the Republican Party, the MAGA movement, the America first movement, I can't get with. As a black African American man, it's apparent that I'm not welcome in that. That stream. Now, most Republicans aren't like this, right? I have a lot of support, but their, Their, Their voices are getting louder and louder. The. Nick Fuentes. These are racist. I, I am black. I can't support. You have the guy who's over the rem. REMU and polls. He was commenting on opposed, and it said he's a white rasp. He's an American supremacist. He's. He leads the conservatives with polls. That is not. That is not attractive to African Americans or minorities.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh. What? It has you so tickled about what he just said.

[Van Lathan]

He leads the conservatives with polls. Was he talking about the Rasmussen poll?

[Rachel Lindsay]

What did he call it? Ramsey?

[Van Lathan]

I'm not dissing this man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, you are.

[Van Lathan]

Hold on. I swear. Thank you, Johnny. Thank you, Donnie. Brothers. I'm not.

[Rachel Lindsay]

There were a couple of times we looked up at each other.

[Van Lathan]

I think he was Rasmussen. This man said as unintelligible as I was in the first segment that me and Rachel just had. I'm not dissing the way this man speaks.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Johnny, go at rope.

[Van Lathan]

I promise. This man said. Hold on. This man said. He leads the consultant. Conservatives with polls. He is. He is incredulous about he. I can't believe the one that does the Rasmussen poll. He leaves the conservatives with polls.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is the man finished? Donnie is the man.

[Donnie]

There's three minutes of this, but this is, like, the gist of what he had to say.

[Van Lathan]

But there's more. Wait a minute. I don't give a fuck. This man cannot believe that someone as prestigious as a nigga. Always the resuscitate.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Donnie, are you okay? I'm not quite finding it as funny, but.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, shit. Wait a minute. Hold on. I'm sorry. To the audience. I'm sorry. When I get tickled this hard, can I have a.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He's sweating. He is sweating. Donnie, rewind it back and let me see if I can somewhat find the humor.

[Van Lathan]

Hold on, Wait. That's a prince too far for him.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Put your hat back on.

[Van Lathan]

I'm sorry. REM Is suing Pose. He was commenting. There it is. That's not. Okay, all right, I'm sorry.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You are laughing at that man.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not laughing at the way that man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That black MAGA preacher.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not, but it's just funny. Of all the people that. It was too much. He can't believe he leads the conservatives with polls. Not him. Not the Rasmussen poll guy. Rachel. He leads the conservatives with polls. That's it. That's gonna be. That's in the show forever. Every time somebody is too conservative with polls. Yeah. Who is this nigga?

[Rachel Lindsay]

The black MAGA preacher, but he doesn't go by that now formally. Reverend Jordan Wells.

[Van Lathan]

Reverend Jordan Wells.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Reverend Jordan Wells.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, okay, look. There's a lot of people that feel this way now. There's a lot of. I'm seeing this online a lot.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, we've been seeing it, really, since Trump took office, his entire second term. Like, once Doge got involved and started making all those cuts to the federal government, people were losing their jobs, immigration, you know, all the things. And leading up to now. Go ahead, get a little bit more.

[Van Lathan]

I'm fine. No, no, no. I promise, I promise.

[Rachel Lindsay]

With the SNAP benefits and now health care looming over everybody, people have been having regression. And to all those people, to the black MAGA preacher, which I really could care less about. Reverend Jordan Wells. I don't care if he has a reverend in front of his name. Where have you been? Where have you been? The problem with people like Reverend Jordan Wells is he took pride in being black and maga. He thought that that won him favor with white people. He thought that that made him popular. It gave him a social media presence. I doubt it filled any pews in his church, but it gave him the attention that he was looking for. That Trump is becoming increasingly unpopular and it is affecting probably him and maybe some of his congregation. He wants to change his tune and he is getting popular. Look, I never knew about Jordan Wells until today. I'm not even gonna call him a reverend because for you to vote in favor of Trump, not only in favor of Trump, but to name yourself a black MAGA preacher. There's nothing Reverend Godly about that. Is just the name for you looking him up.

[Van Lathan]

From overdosing on K2 to preaching Jesus. He overdosed.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is that a headline?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. He overdosed, saw a demon step out of his TV and heard the audible voice of God. He was trapped in addiction. Same sex attraction. He was trapped.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I've seen this guy before.

[Van Lathan]

He was trapped in the demon of same sex attraction.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't. We shouldn't be. Shouldn't even be talking about this man.

[Van Lathan]

How to torment demons with fire, prayers.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Does a man have a church? Does the man have a congregation or does he just call himself that?

[Van Lathan]

Pastor of one is Jordan Wells. This is Jordan Wells University ministry. Let's not make this about him personally. Let's not do that, but make it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

About people like him.

[Van Lathan]

Okay? And what are people like him?

[Rachel Lindsay]

And that's what I was talking about. He was more concerned, as I said, about the title of naming himself Black MAGA than anything else. Okay, and now that you're telling me all this other stuff, these are the people that are behind the movement. These are the people who voted. These are the people who were putting out all this incorrect information. These are the people who got Trump elected. Read off his resume again.

[Van Lathan]

He's been to the fire. Jordan Wells, he's been through it. He was addicted to K2. He. He's the first institution that he leads, the first institution of its kind, teaching the highest level of training on subjects like deliverance, prophecy, spiritual warfare, and much more. What you'll learn is life changing revelation. Taught to be a demon slayer. Okay, I just want to let you guys know there are several typos.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I. I just.

[Van Lathan]

It's like taught b. Demon. Taught by demon slayer and prophet Jordan Wells. There are several typos here. I cannot get on people for typos.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not on that. I'm a demon slayer. He's a self proclaimed demon slayer.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This man is not living in our world.

[Van Lathan]

All right, let's try to make this into a bigger conversation if we can, because we're going to get to the apology rating from Marjorie Taylor King in a second. Let's get to. Let's make this. Donnie, read the tweet that I sent you from the senator from Hawaii. Do you have that?

[Donnie]

He said this is from Brian Schatz. There are a lot of MAGA people online admitting that Trump is betraying them. And if you dunk on those people, you are very likely terrible at politics. Politics is about addition, not subtraction math.

[Van Lathan]

So there is a method of thinking that says. There's a method of thinking that says this. We're going to try to talk about this holistically, that when someone is defecting, then you accept that defector and give them like a very soft bed to lay in. During the Cold War, if you were a big time Russian KGB person, something like that, right. And you decided you wanted to defect, the United States more than welcome to take you, takes you in, uses what expertise you have to their cause. There were. Now they have to make sure you're not a spy. So there is a lot of work to be done. But there were doctors, there were engineers, there were nuclear scientists, there were people in the arts, ballerinas. There were all types of people who defected from the Soviet Union over here. And they're kept on a short leash. They definitely are. They're watched. You have to come and bear your soul, pledge allegiance and do all of that stuff. But if you do that sufficiently, they take you on and they make you a part of their political movement because they say it's better to have you in the fold than it is to have you working for the enemy. And some people, including Senator Deshat, say that defectors from MAGA out of MAGA should be treated the same way. Your thoughts?

[Rachel Lindsay]

So as you were reading off that list of all the things that those defectors were, you know, and how they can contribute, you forgot Demon Slayer. Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You forgot Demon Slayer. So God forbid we forget the Demon Slayer and. Cause we need him. We definitely need him on our team. This is what I will say.

[Van Lathan]

We're talking about him specifically.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no.

[Van Lathan]

See, I use man made it about one guy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is what I will say. And I want Donnie to play the clip. The other clip that's in the rundown too. It's one thing to have regrets. It's another thing to be a defector where you are no longer saying, I support this person. And I'm coming over here because we're seeing both when it comes to MAGA or even Republicans or conservatives that may have voted for Trump, they have regrets because the policy didn't match the rhetoric. Right. We saw Trump is a populist or preach. He preaches populism but doesn't act on popular.

[Van Lathan]

I'm sorry, I just thought what you were talking about. What are you talking about? I just thought about the polls.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's like. But you want to get mad at me, not mad at me. You want to get onto me for talking about him being a demon slayer. And you keep laughing at this man. You aren't calling this man in. You aren't giving this man a soft bid. You're laughing at. You're pointing and you're laughing at him.

[Van Lathan]

You're right, it's wrong.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm with it. I'm with it. I'm with it. This man is a Decepticon. This man is a clown. But my point being is there's a difference between those people who say, I just regret because the policies have been detrimental to a lot of Americans. And the things that you're saying aren't the things that you're doing. And it's not really populism, it's more elitism. You're actually helping. You're supposed to be anti the establishment and everything that you're doing is for the establishment. But I'm still gonna vote for you.

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Donnie, play the other clip in this section.

[Van Lathan]

Meet Wilson Jones. He and his brother are sixth generation.

[Donnie]

Lumbermen, owners of Mackey's Ferry sawmill in North Carolina.

[Van Lathan]

And they both voted for Donald Trump all three times. And because of the Trump tariffs, they had to shut down their family business.

[Donnie]

Of almost 40 years and lay off 50 workers.

[Van Lathan]

Now, whenever stories like this come out.

[Donnie]

There'S only one question I wish reporters would ask.

[Van Lathan]

Knowing what you know now, would you.

[Donnie]

Still vote for Donald Trump again? And this time they did watch.

[Van Lathan]

Do you have any regrets about voting for. There are some things I regret about voting for President Trump. Yes, 100%. Trade policies. One of them. Even though that I wish he could have moderated his tone. Well, I understand you have to do one thing to get elected and then something else, but I wish it hadn't turned out that way. That being said, given the two people running, regardless of what they said on the campaign trail, I would have voted for President Trump. I don't necessarily have regrets I mean, it came out that that's what he was going to fight for. And knowingly that was, would affect us probably because the only place to really ship a volume of lumber was either Vietnam or China. And, you know, so, you know, it's going to affect us. But I don't, outside of not voting, I don't think I had a choice to vote any other direction.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, so to Brian, to Senator Schatz's point, I am for the person who has said I was wrong and now I'm gonna come over because. Or I'm against Trump, I'm against his policies, and I would not vote for him again. I'm against what the administration is doing. I am not for that. And I think that it's important to separate the two specifically as we move into the Marjorie Taylor Greene conversation. So I'm not against what he's saying. I am against. I'm sorry. Even if Reverend Jordan Wells is coming over to our side, I'm just against all of that because that man is, is, is confused. But let me make a. I agree with you with defectors that are fully denouncing it and are going to act on the fact of their, their regrets and them denouncing that. There are a lot of people who are just like that man, those two men that were just talking who have regrets and don't like it. But at the end of the day, when given a choice, they're going to go right back into it again because they are more motivated by voting for, against our interests or other people's interests who don't look like them or maybe not be similarly situated than they are in voting for their own interests.

[Van Lathan]

We're confusing things here. Maybe I am. Let me be crystal clear. So those guys represent a long understood phenomenon, right? The Southern part of this country chose poverty. They chose poverty before black people having anything. They chose policy and governance and all different types of social structure that prioritized segregationalist, exclusionary tactics that immiserated and impoverished entire parts of the south because they did not want to live with a black person having anything that is a part in Louisiana, Mississippi, other places like that. It's a part of the central operating theory and system that it doesn't matter how good our lives are, we have to have, doesn't matter how good our lives are like, our lives have to be just better than the life of the nigger. We actually judge our life by the immiseration of the nigger. If the nigger is poor, we don't have to be rich. We just have to be better than the nigger. That is something that's existent. We're not even talking about those people, is my point. These two people here who have been hurt by President Trump's policies, who won't vote for the other side, are people you can't even consider. Right. What I am saying now is there's been a very solid 35 to 40% of Americans that just believe in Donald Trump. Closer to 35, 35 to 40% of Americans, the erosion that happens above them is the thing that flips votes, flips elections. Just the person that is either a low information voter or believes the propaganda of the Trump administration, the person that said, hey, I voted for Obama, voted for Trump, voted for Biden, voted for Trump, Trump's back. I believe in Trump. Whatever. Those people that waffle back and forth, those are the people that change elections and obviously they exist. Or it you. What you wouldn't see is Biden winning and then Trump winning. Some of that is who comes out. Okay? Some of that is who comes out. But at the same time, obviously there are people that vote back and forth, the district, change counties, change, all of that stuff. But the erosion from the Trump diehard and loyalists is specifically important because that's what signals the end of the MAGA movement. And the end of the MAGA movement would be an interesting political phenomenon. Not talking about the people that, hey, I'm talking about the people that identify as maga, not I voted for Trump, that I am. We often think that I voted for Trump means that you are maga. And it does, it does. It means that you went along with.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That you went along with the policy.

[Van Lathan]

But there are people who are self described members of the, the MAGA cult, their life is MAGA, their higher existence are MAGAs. All of that stuff. They're MAGA. They're MAGA to the core. What does it mean when those people start defecting? Now, I don't have the answer to this question. I think this answer is probably based upon what it is that you do for us. We are podcasters, fake activists. So that means that if we want to hold the line a little bit on that, more probably can. Probably doesn't matter, right? For somebody like a politician, like Chats or anyone else. Well, they have to accept those people. And not only do they have to accept them, they have to court them. They have to use whatever inroads they have into those people, whatever ends they have with those people. Not in rows, whatever ends they have with those people, they have to get in to be able to talk to them, to be able to kind of pull away of the threads of MAGA and almost deprogram them. Somebody's got to do it, like. And the only thing that I'm interested in seeing this because this guy is specifically talking about racism. And it's interesting to me what the grouperization of the Republican Party is exposing. There was a soft racism, DEI racism that some of these people were willing to accept, an anti dei, anti crt like blah, blah, blah racism that some of these people were willing to accept, a racism that can be intellectualized. But there is still a direct racism and a direct antisemitism that bothers them. That's the part that fascinates me. Or at least they're acting like it bothers them. Like there are there. Nick Fuentes and his influence on Republican politics has been in every way. In every way underestimated to me. In every way. Every single thing that those text chats revealed. Gorperism. When you looked into the back and forth the Civil War at the Heritage foundation between the older members of Heritage and the younger members of Heritage, the younger members of Heritage are holding on to an ideology that is directly connected to what you see from the groipers. The older ones actually have exposed themselves as very classic neocon Republicans that are existing or the remnants, should I say, of the Bush Cheney Republicans with a little bit of MAGA sprinkled in. It's not that much different. Like they. They don't have the stomach for as far as the. As much as the groiper version of the Republicans do. But as they take over, they're turning some people off. Some people are going, wait a minute. Now, we all know that a nigger should stay in his place, but we shouldn't call him a nigger when he does it. We shouldn't do that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, we shouldn't do it out loud. Well, for this black cause, that's how I feel.

[Van Lathan]

I agree with you. But for this black, he couldn't. He couldn't take it when there was too much prestige that came along with the raspberry.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You gotta leave him the.

[Van Lathan]

That do the polls for the whole Republican Party. Okay? He's probably like Cleveland from the Cleveland Show. I'm sorry, dog. This tripping this said this. That's the pole. That's the. That do the polls for the whole thing. He could not. That's funny. That's funny. That was a bridge too far for him. All the other. He couldn't handle that. The Rasmussen Poll. Y' all know that those are the official polls, and he was explaining it to his people. So all I'm saying is there is. There is an interesting. There's a. And I see this with black people. I see this with some white people, too. The, the issue a lot of times is more about anti Semitism. It's more about, like, America first policy. It's a lot about the Epstein files. But how you engage with those people is. It's gonna be interesting to see and it's gonna be interesting to see if those people are engaged with any thought and strategy or if we engage them in just how vehemently we abhor them. Because when a person from the left defects to the right, they are treated like a king or a queen. They are brought in. They are gifted platform. They are gifted. If you're talking about, like a Dave Rubin or whomever they are, they are brought in and given the world. They're given intense reinforcement.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Easier to accept that type of person versus it is when the right wants to come over to the left. Because I guess it depends how far right you are.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I don't know if it's easier or not. I guess the question is if it's easier or harder. The question for me is who's making it easier or harder?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes. But I think what I'm saying is, is it's harder to accept maybe. And of course that. I guess that to answer your question, that falls on the person who has to do the accepting. Right. And how they're going to accept them. Right. Like they might just say, okay, fine, this is your defect, and come on over. They're not treating you like a king or a queen. But I guess my point is, don't you think it seems harder to accept someone who might have been racist or.

[Van Lathan]

Misogynist, denies her humanity? Yes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes. So it's harder to accept that person versus the Democrat who's like, actually, I actually believe in, you know, big business or policies that enrich my pockets or less taxes or. You know what I mean? Or. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I think what we're doing a lot of times when we. I think for people on our side, I think there's a huge moral component in what makes you a progressive. Right. I think there's a huge moral component in why you would give up more of your money. Why I would be willing to pay a higher tax burden. Right. Why I believe that if you make $3 million a year, you should be paying, like a 70% tax rate. Like that would affect people who I know and all of that stuff like that. But why I think that's important. Like why the humanist view of things that tends to be prevalent in left spaces. Not center left spaces, guys. Those are the same fucking corporatists that. But in more progressive spaces, it's difficult to go from. To make coalition with people that on Monday thought you weren't a human being and on Thursday are willing to listen to you. It's difficult. I will say this, though. Maybe not us, maybe not the people. Somebody's got to do it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no, you're not wrong. His tweet, Senator Schatz tweet is not wrong. It's the whole call in thing. Right. It's the same thing that they talk about when it's. When it's religion.

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

When you have the people who just want to shun you from the church because they don't agree with you, like you or your lifestyle or whatever it may be. Rather than saying come one, come all, come as you are. Because that's going to be more of an inviting message that might get you to turn away from what it is that you're doing and bringing you into what it is that I believe, if I'm more welcoming to that. I understand that. I understand it.

[Van Lathan]

Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[Donnie]

Yeah, she was on CNN yesterday. She spoke about. She addressed, I should say, the animosity between herself and President Trump, saying that it mostly came down to the Epstein files. But she also apologized for taking part in toxic politics. Let's get an apology rating after we hear what she said.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I would like to say humbly, I'm sorry for taking part in the toxic politics. It's very bad for our country. And it's been something I've thought about a lot, especially since Charlie Kirk was assassinated, is that we. I'm only responsible for myself and my own words and actions. And I am going, I am committed. And I've been working on this a lot lately to put down the knives in politics. I really just want to see people be kind to one another. And we need to figure out a new path forward that is focused on the American people. Because as Americans, no matter what side of the aisle we're on, we have far more in common than we have differences. And we need to be able to respect each other with our disagreements. I'm not rating it. I don't give a shit about what Marjorie Taylor Greene has to say right now. I don't. And I think that what is happening with the media and how they're responding to Marjorie Taylor King as You would say just shows how ridiculous a lot of us are if you can't see what she's doing and why she's doing it. I didn't even need AOC to come out and tell us that Trump had denied her of being able to run for Senate. And so she's fighting against the establishment. I didn't even need that. Because what is lacking from what Marjorie Taylor Greene is doing? And first off, let me point out two things. When she went on the View, hated her appearance, going on the View. She went on the View, she said, everybody keeps saying Marjorie Taylor Greene has changed. And she said, nothing has changed about me. Nobody's talking about that. 2. She said she still agrees with the Trump administration and Trump's policies. That's two. Three. She says that she has the most conservative voting record in Congress and she's very proud of that. Y' all aren't listening to what she's saying. So I'm not rating her apology, cuz there isn't one. I really could give two shits about Marjorie Taylor Greene. It's great that she's saying that we need health care that is affordable in this country. She's right. Right. Conservatives can be right. People in MAGA can be right at times. That doesn't mean that they are reformed. It doesn't mean that they have completely changed. What I have yet to see Marjorie Taylor Greene do is be accountable. She wants to get on here and say we all need to come together and end all the toxic and dangerous rhetoric to. What I would say to that is somebody should be saying, and what specifically are you apologizing to? Have you apologized for being an election denier? Have you apologized for all that came with that and the people that were impacted with that and the lives? Are you apologizing for wanting to pardon them? Are you apologizing for going to, what was it called, America First Political Action Conference where you shook hands and grinned on stage with Nick Fuentes? Are you apologizing for aligning yourself with a person who believes such hateful things, which we've talked about on this podcast? No, you've yet to do any of those things. And when she was pressed by it, she said, oh my God, I was unaware. Well, what did Nick Fuentes come back out and say to Tucker Carlson? She knew exactly who I was. She knew exactly what it is she's doing. I need Marjorie, Marjorie Taylor Greene to specifically address the things that she's calling toxic. And if you truly are against ending all the toxic and dangerous rhetoric, how can you Continue to say that you support Donald Trump. When Donald Trump literally, when asked about how he feels, the fact that you are being threatened with hoax pizzas and pipe bomb threats and all of these things and your life being endangered, he said, nobody cares about her. He called you Marjorie Taylor Trader Greene, and said nobody cares about her. Yet you still want to align yourself with someone who continues to spew out rhetoric, dangerous and toxic rhetoric, and you support his policies and his administration, but you want to apologize for it at the same time, make it make sense. What makes sense is that she is not a changed person. She is exactly who we thought she was. She just believes in health care. It should be affordable. And she wants the Epstein files released. A lot of people do. That's it. That's it. That's who she is.

[Van Lathan]

So it's a zero. It's a non rating. It's an na.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, it was my first ever.

[Van Lathan]

Your first ever na? Fucking with it. The first ever na. What, what, what? What do we have to do? We have to give you some layups on the apology rating. We have to give you some.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, you show you can't start with this one. I think everybody would feel like a.

[Van Lathan]

Lot of people feel this way. I think Marjorie Taylor Greene, if she really wants the moniker, that she's gonna have to do a lot more to convince people that her worldview has changed and not just her political alliances. Yeah, I think that's all very fair.

[Rachel Lindsay]

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[Donnie]

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[Van Lathan]

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[Donnie]

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[Van Lathan]

Before we get off of the Trump world, I do wanna talk about something that happened that we people have been discussing for the last couple of days.

[Donnie]

Donnie talking about Bubba.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Donnie]

Jeffrey Epstein's brother, Mark Epstein. So this goes back to a conversation from March 2018, back and forth between Jeffrey and Mark Epstein. In that exchange, Mark and Jeffrey, who had written earlier that he was with former Trump advisor Steve Bannon. He wrote that he should ask him if Putin has the photos of Trump blowing Bubba. Now, Bubba is a nickname for Bill Clinton. So they have people raising questions and eyebrows raised and. Yeah, let's talk about Bubba.

[Van Lathan]

So Epstein says. Mark Epstein says they were simply part of a humorous private exchange between two brothers and were never meant for public release or to be interpreted as serious remarks for the voidance of doubt. The reference to Bubba in this correspondence is not in any way a reference to former President Bill Clinton.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, you were into this story.

[Van Lathan]

I choose to believe that Donald Trump sucked Bill Clinton's dick.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why do you choose to believe that?

[Van Lathan]

Why? I choose to believe that because it's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

More fun to believe that.

[Van Lathan]

No. So I choose to believe that so you guys can say whatever you want to say. All right? It's all alleged, alleged, alleged, alleged, alleged. The MAGA right has chosen to believe that your plane is in danger of falling out of the sky if a black woman is the pilot. The MAGA right has chosen to believe that a black person cannot be duly elected as the mayor of a city without DEI being involved. The MAGA right has chosen to believe so many different things. And I choose to believe that Donald Trump sucked Bill Clinton's dick. And that is my choice. And I can't be canceled for it. I can't be admonished for it. I don't want anyone in any way denying my free speech, my free thought, as Kanye west said, to believe Donald Trump sucked Bill Clinton's dick. And I don't think in my choice, allegedly, it didn't happen once. It happened several different times in several different locales.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Wait, that is in the email or that is what you're choosing to believe?

[Van Lathan]

Choosing to believe? I'm choosing to believe that Donald Trump sucked Bill Clinton's dick in Vegas, that he sucked Bill Clinton's dick in Trump Tower, that they had a key west interlude, that maybe in Abu Dhabi, this happened all different types of places, that there were quickies, that there were long, long, long sessions, that sometimes it was just jacking off, sometimes they were both shirtless and Trump. I'm choosing to believe that this is One of the greatest love stories of our times. And I'm saying right now, I support that shit. A lot of people were like, yo, y' all are being homophobic. No, we're being interested. And there's a difference. No one has said that this was wrong. No one has said that this is something that shouldn't have happened. But what I am choosing to believe is that this happened. And I'm not going to let Mark Epstein or anybody else subtract from what I believe is one of the enduring relationships in American politics, which is the sexual relationship, sex between Donald Trump and Bill Clinton. And I'll tell you something else, last thing I'll say about it, it Bill never reciprocated.

[Rachel Lindsay]

As in he never blew.

[Van Lathan]

Trump, never happened, wouldn't do that. This was a one way relationship. This. We've all had them. I know a lot of out there, we all had them. And this was Donald Trump just gratifying bubble. We saw the picture, we saw the little Pat, Pat. So look, hey, man, look. Hey, hey, man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Hey.

[Van Lathan]

It's cool.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Wow. I wasn't nearly as interested in this story as you were, but I know a lot of people were. And I'm happy that you had the opportunity to express how you feel about it. I'm happy that you are choosing to believe what you want to believe and not letting other people dictate that for you. I'm happy for you. You are free to do that. I'm free to do that. Allegedly. I saw you post the video on there. Yeah, I know. It was AI.

[Van Lathan]

Part of it was, part of it was real.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The photograph was real.

[Van Lathan]

And they say, they say the first three seconds of the video are real.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So the pat in the front was real.

[Van Lathan]

And then we just pat it more. Because even if that didn't happen, that's what he wanted.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what you choose to believe. And you choose to believe. And I, and I want everybody. I have nothing to say to add to that.

[Van Lathan]

Thank you very much.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're welcome. You're welcome.

[Van Lathan]

No, people are not going to take my choice away.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's right.

[Van Lathan]

People like for a long time. I'm not gonna be canceled for it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's right.

[Van Lathan]

Can't be canceled for it. That's what I'm choosing to believe. What is Michelle Obama talking about?

[Donnie]

Yeah, she's promoting a new book that just was released called look. And she had this. To have the people talking, you stepped.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Into a role that carried a preconceived idea of femininity and wifedom that was Founded on the landmines of racism and misogyny. What the first lady wears is one of the main ways, which you've already said that a first lady has talked about. It comes with so much historical expectation. How do you feel about the fact that the first lady is an archetype for wifedom and femininity? Yeah, I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that. It is a completely throwback on. It's a definition that has no currency, current status and how women actually show up in the world today. Do you think that that impacts the room that we've made for a woman to be president? Well, as we saw in this past election, sadly, we ain't ready. That's why I'm like, don't even look at me about running because you all are lying. You're not ready for a woman. You are not. So don't waste my time. You know, we got a lot of growing up to do, and there's still, I'm sadly, a lot of men who do not feel like they can be.

[Van Lathan]

Led by a woman.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And we saw it. I love her.

[Van Lathan]

You love Michelle Obama.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I really do. I really do. Listen, we talked about this right after the election. We talked about Kamala Harris. And since then, we can talk about mistakes that were made in the way that she was campaigned and things that occurred could have been done differently. And she wrote an entire book on it. But one of the conversations, or the main conversation we had right after the election is that people will jump through. The people who voted for Trump, a lot of them will jump through, do all these mental gymnastics in order to not vote for a black Indian woman. I mean, one of the clips that we played where the two people were talking about how it was affecting their business. But if they, if they and their wellbeing, but if they were given the same choices that they were given before, they'd still vote for Trump no matter what is happening, happening to them economically. If you listen to that clip even further, that's, I think, yeah, we cut it off. That's what they had to say. That's really the gist of it. If you, if your choice was Trump and he's all the things that he is, and you know that. And I don't have to do the laundry list. And I'm not even talking about him being convicted and all those things. I'm talking about who he is, what he represents, and even what his policies were when it came to project 2025 and him acting like he didn't Know what it was. You chose to ignore all of that in order to not vote for Kamala Harris. And I would have conversations with men who just could not deal with. And even women. Let me not just say men. Men and women in this country who could not see a woman leading them, whether it was a woman, whether it was because she was black, whether it was because she was Indian, they couldn't get past it. So they would rather vote for somebody who has no moral values whatsoever just to avoid voting for somebody who looks a certain way or who comes from a certain background. And that's just really it. Michelle Obama is not wrong. As beloved as she is, as much as people love her husband, they still, at the end of the day, could not see themselves being led by a woman.

[Van Lathan]

So you don't. You don't think that Michelle Obama could win.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No.

[Van Lathan]

In a general election as president?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No. Even if it wasn't Trump?

[Van Lathan]

Even if it wasn't Trump. Even if it was. So Michelle Obama couldn't beat Ron DeSantis in a general.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I do not think so.

[Van Lathan]

So I think a couple of things. Well, whether she's right or wrong to me doesn't even matter. Because it's sort of a vague thing to litigate. You kind of don't know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But we do. From what we saw, this. I think from this last election, maybe, perhaps.

[Van Lathan]

I don't think that there was a. If you. Gun to my head, she's right. I would say that she's right. Right? And it seems obvious that she's right, being that Trump, who's a bad candidate, lost to. Excuse me. Beat both Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris. And if we just look at those factors on their face. Gun to my head, she's right. The reason why I, him and hall is because of two reasons. One, entrenched misogyny. And then the second one is because you just can't wait till America's ready. America's never ready. You've never. America has never been like, okay, we're ready for this. Ever. The only way that any group of people that is not a part of the white male orthodoxy of America has gotten what they've wanted from the country is by taking it or by the mixture of excellence and circumstance. If people remember Barack Obama from 2008, you remember him for running one of the best campaigns in American political history, and you remember everything that they got right.

[Donnie]

Right?

[Van Lathan]

But you also have to remember where the country was. Right. You have to remember the Iraq war and people looking around and being like a lot of people that were involved in this. And there are a lot of people that have been a part of the American political dynasty or the American political establishment for a long time. And there's one guy who's pretty relatively new. You have to look at the financial collapse and the disarray of the country, and what they really needed at that point, and what they really needed was a pep talk. They needed somebody who came along and said, things will get better. Things can get better. Things can change. You can have hope. And there happened to be, at that particular point, someone who could do that perfectly. Not good, not okay, but perfectly. And that readiness wasn't so much about being ready for a black president. It was about a bunch of circumstances that came together and someone who could take advantage of it. If you look at the civil rights movement, it's not like America got to the point in the mid-60s and was like, I think that black people deserve this. It was about the fact that there was enough work being done by all different types of black people. There was enough intellectual versatility, enough intellectual diversity for America to hear from all different types of black people, to hear from the militants, to hear from the centrists, to hear from the religious class, to hear from the lawyers. But then there was one guy, one guy who could properly contextualize the place of black people in America, who could use America's history as a weapon, who could use America's future as a promise and could use America's present as a sort of litmus test and could say and do all of these things and was a genius at it and forced it and made it happen. When you look at the feminist revolution that was happening along that same time and then goes into the 70s, there are several women who were able to step back and make America look at itself and go, you realize we're not a part of this. You realize this isn't a thing. So America is never ready, never going to be ready. You always have to take it. You always have to force it. And not in any way to be critical of Michelle Obama, because God forbid that I would do that. What I would say is that, that there's a way to interpret this, that you could look and say, we shouldn't try, that there are women. Just, just, just, just, just, just listen to what I'm saying, that there are women who. I believe one of the like. And you guys can put the pander alert if you want. I believe one of the main things that's holding. Civilization packages is our inability to prioritize women as leaders I can't say anything. But there's reasons for that, though. As the world becomes a more sophisticated, diverse, multifaceted place, I think that there are things about women that, to me, honestly, lend them to be stronger, more capable leaders. And this part of society, not the only leaders. But we need more lady voices. We need more lady strength, more lady leadership and guidance at the table. This conversation has to grow. So I don't ever want to think that or believe that we have to turn the page on prioritizing women as leaders, because America isn't ready for it. America is never ready. They have never been ready. There's always a confluence of events that leads to these huge changes, and we have to be ready to prioritize the women that are going to lead these changes. And we have to be bold and fearless in doing this. If there is a woman that is up in 2028, I will vote for her.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Any of them.

[Van Lathan]

Huh?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Any woman?

[Van Lathan]

No, not any woman. I'm saying that if there's a woman that I like in 2028, I will vote for her. And I won't hesitate.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, I got it. Cause I know how you feel about mtk.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, come on, man. Don't get me started.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's your girl.

[Van Lathan]

Don't get me started. I don't want Marjorie Taylor Greene to be the president or be a senator.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What do you want from her?

[Van Lathan]

I want her to be the president of bet.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, whoa, whoa.

[Van Lathan]

That's the job Marjorie Taylor Greene has got to take. This is the way she can do it. She got to take some entry level jobs. So she got to. She got to take some culturally entry level jobs. Not even the president of the bet. I need Marjorie Taylor Greene to, like, PA on the oval.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Come on.

[Van Lathan]

I want her to PA on the oval. I want Marjorie Taylor Greene. If she really is down with it. She needed to take orders from some black. She need to be a part of it. Right? Like, she needs to go out there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. She's gonna try to win people over for sure. But let me tell you something about what you said about Michelle. The only thing I'll say is fair point. Fine. Fair. Some people might see it as if you're being hypercritical. I think that she's saying women should not have this type of leadership role. I don't think that's what she's saying. I think that the way I took it in, and I think, I hope most people did, is that she does not want to run for president. She does not want that. And so. And she's saying this is the reason why. And she's basing it off of some of the things that I said at the top of the show or the top of this segment about what happened to Kamala Harris. I wholeheartedly believe if Joe Biden, former president Joe Biden's vice president, was a white man, that person would have won office. A white man had separated himself from Biden, I think he would have won office. I do. That's just me. We'll never know. But to her point, it's not don't stop trying, cuz that would go against everything that Michelle Obama stands for. But it's more of just noting the time we're in and noting that even though we have made progress, there's still progress to be made, whether it's gender roles, whether it's the patriarchy, whether all of that. And you said it so beautifully and it was not pandering to women. It's the truth. And there are several countries that have been led and are being led by women with great success. So it's not that it can't be done. It's happening all over the world. It's that we as an American society need to get over some of these stereotypes that we have, some of the patriarchy that is so. And it's everywhere.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's not just America, but it is so prevalent in our society and both men and women contribute to why it still exists in this way. Which is why I said I hear men and women say that they would not have voted for Kamala Harris. Until we can get past those things, we can't get to a place where she could run and win one time.

[Van Lathan]

More than anything, I disagreed with Pac. I know it seems heaven sent we ain't ready to see a black president. And the secret unconcealed fact pentiction is packed and it peels with filled with blacks know that you know that record. I wake up in the morning and I ask myself is life worth living? Should I blast myself? I'm tired of being poor and even worse, I'm black My stomach hurts so I'm looking for a purse to snatch Cops give a damn about a knee grow, pull a trigger, kill a he's a hero. Come on, man, get me started on that Pac. But I was like, oh, Pac, what the you talking about, nigga? You don't know like we ain't ready for a black president. I was like, I'm ready. I was like, 16, 17, he wasn't talking to you. Yelling at the radio like Love you, Pac. Dallas Cowboys.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What about them?

[Van Lathan]

They always link to Tupac.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What did he say?

[Van Lathan]

Tupac was still living the last time y' all won the Super Bowl.

[Donnie]

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[Van Lathan]

Let's talk about Pharrell real quick. Donnie, play Pharrell.

[Donnie]

All right, here he is. After he got the key to the city in Miami, he had this to say.

[Van Lathan]

As we look at what's going on, the current political climate, I'm just saying to. I want to turn anybody off. I hate politics, like, despise them.

[Donnie]

It is.

[Van Lathan]

It's a. It's a magic trick. That is. It's not real. I don't believe in either side because I think when you pick a side, you are only, you know, you are inadvertently supporting division. Yeah, it's not a popular point of view, but I just got to say, when I think about it, the wells are drying up. And then, okay, now the diversity's off the table. Not equity's off the table. Now inclusion's off the table. So that makes me ask myself, okay, so how do we survive? Well, are there black people here, there, tonight? And in your heart, do you think for what it is that you do and who you are, do you think you're the best? Okay, so do you want the job because you're black or because you're the best? Do you want someone to support your startup because you're black or because you're the best?

[Donnie]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

So I think now for me, it's about us having the best ambition that's the reason why you support. Should support these businesses. Yes, they happen to be black and brown, but it should be based on the thesis that we're the best, not because we are a total shade of a skin color. That's a point of view that I have now that, like, that I'm resting on. And if diversity, equity, and inclusion ever comes back in style, cool. But in the meantime, I'm going to focus on being the best because I can bank on that. Because that's what's going to get you to position where, you know, I don't want you to give me anything. I want you. I want you to panic and not let me out the room because I'm the best.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, me. Okay. This is an issue that we are running into more. And the issue that we're running into more is how we show up in conversation with the people that we have made into the titans that they are now. These people have made themselves into titans, be it Pharrell, Kanye, hov, whoever it is, whoever it is, they've made themselves. They have immense amounts of talent. You can't even imagine the talent that they have. But there's a conversation that they have that is at cross purposes with the conversation that we're having. First of all, Pharrell says that he is not into politics. Politics is divisive. He is into politics. He just doesn't know that he is. Pharrell is a musician. Politics affects the music industry as much as it does any other industry. Laws, regulations, and policy. Copyright law is a part of Pharrell's life. Streaming regulation is a part of Pharrell's life. Net neutrality is a part of Pharrell's life. Censorship is a part of Pharrell's life. Concert licensing is a part of Pharrell's life. Work visas, immigration law, where he can get talent from. Part of Pharrell's life. Tariffs on all the equipment that might come in. It's part of Pharrell's life. Part of his tax policy, part of Pharrell's life. Like social and political stuff. The messages that exist in music from people that he might produce. Part of Pharrell's life. Political backlash from stuff that might happen to people. Part of Pharrell's life. Corporations that he might work with, their lobby. Part of Pharrell's life. Big tech lobbying from places like Spotify, from places like Apple, from places like YouTube. Part of Pharrell's life. All of that stuff. The consolidation of radio, part of Pharrell's life. He's a musician. All of these things are the way that Pharrell does. I could go on, right? I could go on and talk about all the different ways that politics is a part of Pharrell's life as a creative because politics is a part of all of our lives.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's the point.

[Van Lathan]

Politics is in the water that you drink. Politics is your freedom of movement when you leave your home. Politics is the quality of the food that's in your supermarket. Politics is if you have a supermarket. Politics is all of that. And if you are separated from that, then what you are saying is that you are completely trusting, empowered to make decisions for you. And what I would say to you. What I would say to you is that it's important for you to know politics so that you can make the decision for yourself and then empower someone else to represent you. So that is why, first of all, that that was be separate from politics. I don't believe in that period. But I'll say something deeper here, goes back to the way I started. This entire thing is for somebody like Pharrell or a ball player or, you know, an actor or something like that. You have to try to remain connected to the average person that's consuming your stuff. Because when he talks about being the best, he is reflecting on a life of being, in my opinion, one of the most gifted musicians of all time. He's reflecting on that, and he's saying, I could not be kept out of these rooms. I could not be kept from achieving because simply, I see sounds like nobody else, and I'm the best, and I'm going to succeed? Well, I guess the question is, how do we choose the best in a place that you don't have entry into? Like, how do we choose the best pilot? How do we choose the best cpa? How do we choose the best attorney? How do we choose in anything where you. Where there is a structure, where you need an opportunity, where the barrier to entry isn't just listen to what I did. Just listen to what I did. Or the barrier to entry isn't just, hey, I'm standing here. You're standing there. Who is the fastest? What if the barrier of entry is the quality of your schools? What if the barrier to entry is you being hungry so you can't even perform in your schools? What if the barrier to entry is whether or not you get the opportunity at higher education? What if the barrier of entry for you to show that you are the best is to be accepted or hired At a firm where all of the guys went to Harvard and they hire other Harvard guys. Right. And you went to Tennessee State. You went to famu, where everyone who was doing anything important seems to have gone, what? There was a. I can't remember who was giving this speech, but I'm going to have this. There was a gentleman who was giving a speech at Oxford. Oxford doesn't have legacy admissions. He was giving a speech at Oxford to the graduating class. Watch this speech. And he goes, oxford does not have legacy admissions. Right. Which is. And there was mild applause, which means that you didn't just get here because your parent or your brother or somebody else got here. But he said the majority of the people in this room, 90 something percent, all went to the same super prestigious elite private schools, which means even though Oxford does not have legacy admissions, that capitalism is still choosing who graduates from Oxford. Less applause. Because some of these barriers to entry that we're talking about are decisions that were made by people's parents and grandparents. And if we do not have the wherewithal or the stomach to challenge that status quo in America, then we're reinforcing it. So when Pharrell talks about being the best, when he talks about whether or not you want something because you're black or because you're the best, there's almost a thought that those two things have to be mutually exclusive. I am black, and I have been deprived in this country. I want the opportunity to show I'm the best. How am I going to get it if the things that undergird American competition aren't fair and if they are fair, and if anyone wants to make the case that they are fair, be it Pharrell or be it anyone else, if they are fair, then explain to me how in Boston, the median white family has $288,000 worth of wealth and the median black family has $8? Explain to me just. I am willing to have that conversation with anyone. If there is a way to properly contextualize American disparity. Very evident American disparity. And you guys have heard me say this over and over and over again. We can pick cities, pick towns, pick all we can. You've. If there's a way to explain the disparity that just says niggas don't want to work and they're not smart, I'll have the conversation with you. I don't believe you, but I'll have the conversation with you. So I guess my response to this is not to Pharrell, who is a nice guy, My response is to you who are listening, I want you to know that the geniuses that you have given prodigious wealth to, the geniuses that you have given a lifestyle by supporting their genius, they are not in community with you. And that is not an indictment on you, on them. How could they be? Like, how could they be? How could they be? How could someone like Pharrell or whomever else understand what somebody coming out of high school or college right now, it's been a very long time, been rich for a very long time, is so ridiculously talented. How could they? But I want you to understand that these people are not in community with you. And once you understand that they're not in community with you, once you'll understand that you have an entire set of problems and an existence that just doesn't mean anything to them, that they just don't care about, that they can't care about, that literally their lives are something different, then you'll understand one thing. It doesn't matter what they say. It doesn't matter what they say. It literally. I want you guys to really understand this. It doesn't matter what they say. There is an intellectual or an inventor or an activist that would love for you, for us, for someone else to pay attention to the work that they're doing for you as much as we pay attention to all of these other people. There is somebody somewhere right now that is busting they ass to illuminate this very issue, and we're doing a disservice to them because we're talking to somebody. We're talking about someone who is removed from what the reality of this actually is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, it is. It's not a disservice because you're pointing out a very good thing. You should. Not necessarily. Once you understand that they are disconnected from you, that they're almost talking down to you or talking at you, because they have. And this is where I will disagree with you. They have chosen to not understand you. Because if you can sit there on a stage and talk about. Sorry, wait a minute.

[Van Lathan]

So wait, wait. I just. So Pharrell woke up and was like, I'm a shit on the working people today. I don't like them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What you said was, is that he can't understand you because of where he is. That is a choice. That is my point. If you can sit on stage and you can comment about politics and call it. What was the word he used? Either a fantasy or that it's a mythical thing. If you can say that and you can Speak to certain things that are currently happening in the world, then you're tapped in at some point, right? So even though you might live a completely different life where your kids go to a different school, you dine with different people in different places, you travel a certain way, you. You wear a certain clothing that is not like, you know the community as a whole, right? Because of the things that you've achieved and the way you choose to live your life, it doesn't mean that you can't understand because of how you grew up. Maybe where you current family members that you have. In certain situations that you can't understand it, you are making a choice to choose to detach yourself from it. It might be harder for you to do it because you are so far removed from it, but it doesn't mean that you are incapable of doing that. And the thing I will say about Pharrell in this situation, it is one of the most privileged statements, as he says, this whole thing, that not I've heard in a while, but just that I've heard in a while. It's pretty privileged because I think if I'm gonna give him anything, I don't think he meant to say politics. I think he meant to say political parties. And if he wants to say political parties are divisive. Totally true. You're so right. That's exactly what I would have said about politics is embedded in every single thing that we do in our lives. And your privilege gets you the power to separate yourself from that and say the things that Pharrell was saying. You have a certain level of power because of the privilege that you have in this world. You can't. None of the stuff that you're saying applies to you, to the people that you're talking to or the people that you're telling. Just be your. It takes more than that than just to be your best talent isn't necessarily enough. Being your best isn't necessarily enough. There are other things that have to be in place at times in order for you to rise up the ladder, which are the things that you were talking about. So what I would say to Pharrell is say political parties are divisive. Say you don't want to align yourself with political parties. That's fine. We talk about that on this podcast. But the way he was sitting on that stage and talking was almost as if is almost separate from morals and values. Right? You don't stay silent just because you don't like politics and you don't want to involve with it. There should be Something within you that is so distraught by what's happening. Your morals and values should take over where you feel like you have to say something and you have to speak to it without aligning yourself or getting involved with politics. That's possible as well. But the message that he was preaching up on that stage was that this isn't a real thing. Don't get involved with it. Which could not be farther from the truth. It is a very real thing that is having real impact on so many people's lives, for good and bad. Right. But lately it's been a lot of bad. And so what he should be telling people is, I'm not gonna stay silent. I'm gonna speak out on the things that I'm against, But I'm not gonna align myself necessarily to a politician or to a political party.

[Van Lathan]

So obviously, we always have a different approach. Okay, but. But I guess the reason why I say he doesn't is because the things that he was saying. The things that he was saying aren't connected. They're a surface level.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes, you're right.

[Van Lathan]

They're a surface level evaluation of what meritocracy and individualism is. And it's a way that things are. Sometimes America launders itself through these things that no one would disagree with. There's a way to intellectually launder the reality of America through the term meritocracy. Like, the best person will win, like the best. That's what it should be. It should be about individual meritocracy. And when that is said, there's almost no one who is going to say, I don't think that's true. There's almost anyone who. There's no one that's gonna be like, no, I don't think that individual meritocracy is a good thing. I think that we should give incompetent people chances. There's nobody that's going to say that, right? There's nobody that's gonna be like, no, meritocracy is not great. I think the worst people should get something. But what the conversation is, is about whether or not meritocracy is possible alongside of systemic dysfunction and racism. Whether or not we're talking about a true meritocracy. If we're talking about people who are hungry, people who don't have access to educational systems. If meritocracy is about where you start and not who you are. Right. Then how do we nurture true meritocracy? And the only way to nurture true meritocracy, it's very Simple. If we are all. Let's take it to an athletic situation, all you guys that are listening to this, you know this. If we are all lined up and we're about to run, right, and it's everybody's running, we're going to run as fast as we want. If one person had to work all night and didn't have enough money for breakfast, they would have to be so much faster than everybody else that got a good night's sleep and ate breakfast in the morning that it's actually not meritocracy. It's rewarding the person that started in the most resourced place. And that is a continual conversation that we're trying to have. Will we ever get to a point in American society where everyone has the same amount of access to everything? Maybe not. But the conversation that we're having is about whether or not that is even a goal that we should be trying to attain. And conversations like this, even if they don't mean to undermine that. The reason why I can understand and the reason how he looks at this is because I grew up in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, where sports is king. Sports is king, right? Everything is about sports. And you hear about people that are just crazy dope in sports. Michael Clayton is the best football player in the nation, along with Marcus Spears. One go to Christian Life, the other one go to Southern Lab. Ryan Terrio is from your town. Travis Minor is from your town. Major Applewhite is from your town. Lester Earl is from your town. All of these people, they come from uc, see them go, do the thing right. Not any of these guys. I haven't talked to these guys specifically about this stuff. But when you talk to people like that or when you know niggas, they'll say stuff like, well, I've never really seen any racism. And they'll say it. They'll be like, well, I don't really know that much about that, right? Like, I ran in a race when I was in the seventh grade. I was faster than everybody when I was in the seventh grade. And then Catholic High came and got me. And then there was a white family at Catholic High, and they took. They took care of me. And then I went to lsu and then I got drafted. By the time I learned what racism was, it was because I was driving a car when I was 26 years old in the city by the team that I got drafted from, and they didn't know who I was, and they saw somebody driving a nice car or whatever, and they pulled me over and I'm like, oh, shit, two things there. One, some of them don't understand that the circumstances that they came from are a result of entrenched, prolonged American racial disparity. And then others don't understand that they were commodified from the time that they were 12 years old. They had a skill that was undeniable. Some skills like the ability to do math. Some skills like the ability to have rhetorical genius. Some skills like the fact that you are always on time, which is a skill. Or the fact that you are a hard worker, which is a skill. Some skills take a little bit of getting into the guts with. And those are also skills that apply to other things. Meaning if your choice matrix is between doctor or lawyer, then you're set up for success. If your choice matrix is between doctor and drug dealer, there is a gulf between the outcomes. And every bit of hard work that you show, like in school, can easily be shown on the corner. You could easily. I've heard guys that are hustlers admonish other guys that don't work hard. I'm not gonna say the names, but I remember. I never heard the. I remember this conversation like it was yesterday. We can move off this. After this, we playing basketball. Two of my homies, one of my homie is into something. The other my homies is just getting a start with it. And he looking at him, he got the Carolina Blue Jays on. And he said, you never gonna get these shoes. And he was like, wow, you never gonna make enough. He was like, man, I like. When you got up this morning, I was hustling. I hustle. I was so funny. God rest his soul. He did. He's like, I hustle. I go get some breakfast. After I get breakfast, I chill. I come back out here. I hustle. Just to give a break from my mind. I watch these niggas play a little basketball. Cause we was playing. And then after that, you know what I do? I hustle. I hustle. Then I get in my shit and I walk to go get what the fuck I need. And I come back, and every single thing on my body is. Cause I'm willing to go out there and be there when you not there. He's like, I can hit you with whatever you need. I can give you everything you need, but I can't give you that. And if you don't have that, you don't need to be out here. And I'm watching him, talk to him. I don't want to start crying, but I'm watching. I'm listening to Him. Talk to him about work ethic. And I'm like, yo, what the fuck are we doing? Like, what? Like, what? Like. Like, what the fuck is going on? And then, like. Like, I hear. I'm.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm.

[Van Lathan]

I'm thinking to myself. I'm like, I don't want to. It's hard because you can't be the nigga that's, like, going, don't you know that you shouldn't be doing this, that you're not? That all of that work ethic that you showing that you're going to be out of here, but you can't say that. Well, fuck it. Let's move on. Eric Adams. I can't do it again, man. No, I just. I can't. I can't do it. I'm so sick of this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You want to just stop?

[Van Lathan]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because Eric Adams serves Israel, and we got to talk about that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was hoping. We were not talking. I didn't see this, but go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

Like Donnie.

[Donnie]

Yeah. Mayor Eric Adams, he was in Israel this past weekend doing the rounds, and he had this to say.

[Van Lathan]

My mail keys here in Israel. And as I finish, I wanted to come back here to Israel and let you know that I serve you as the mayor, but I want to continue to have the title. That's more important to me. Me than anything. I'm your brother. Thank you.

[Donnie]

Thank you.

[Van Lathan]

Eric Adams went to Israel, and he said that he served them. What? He said he served them, that we were done with him as the mayor. This is all I say about this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Just them.

[Van Lathan]

This is all I'll say about this. Sometimes, even when you got somebody that's with you, you gotta be like, whoa, chill. I've seen this before. Sometimes, like, there would be, like, a white homie, and they would be going a little too hard, and I'd have to be like, yo, chill.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, for you, for me, for the community.

[Van Lathan]

Like, we like for black.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, I'm so down with the black people, okay?

[Van Lathan]

And we walking. We almost to Louie's LSU campus. The cops are there. One of my homies that was down with us goes, hey, you wouldn't be following us if we weren't. I'm like, can we go get the hamburgers, please? Just chill, y'.

[Donnie]

All.

[Van Lathan]

You know, this is one of the ones where it looks so bad. You know what I'm saying? Like, this, like. Like, this is one of the ones where it looks so bad. Maybe, like, Ben Shapiro just put your. Because this is, like an obvious. You know what I'm saying it's like it looks. It looks so. Like, it looks so bad. By the way, I will say something else here. I always have to say this. I'm having more conversations with my Jewish friends about anti Semitic. Oh, man, come on. Don't do that. I'm having more conversations with my Jewish friends about anti Semitism, about what it means to show up for your Jewish friends. The rise of Nick Fuentes and the corporatization of the right is very direct. Anti Semitism. Marjorie Taylor Greene. So we are not going to get out of community with our Jewish friends. We're not going to get out of community with our Jewish friends. Nothing is going to pull us out of community with our Jewish friends. We are going to be in community with our Arab and Muslim friends, and nothing is going to pull us out of community with them either. No lies, no Islamophobia, no. None of that. We're going to remain in community with people who need our help and people. We're going to remain in community. There is an obviousness to this right here that can be used in very fucked up ways. And he just looks it. This looks like what everybody says. And so if I was, I'd be like, yo, Chill. Don't say that you were serving somebody other than the citizens of New York when you. The married New York. That's kind of what people say. And we want to stay away from that. I would say that if I was inside of the shit I told my homie that night, I'm like, yo, can we just. Can we just get the hamburger? Like, we're not trying to. Like, we got a whole plan. The LSU just finished. The game is over. When we gonna eat the hamburger? And then we gonna go to the sorority. We gonna walk up and down. It's already gonna be a afflicted night. It's already gonna be afflicted. Cause we gonna. We partying with the LSU kids. It's already up. Let's get the night started. We pulled them to the side like, hey, chill. You ain't gotta do this right now. That's what they should do to E.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Relax. You're not wrong, right? Like, yes, we need to be fighting against anti Semitism always. But, like, it just feels performative. I'm not saying he doesn't care. It's just.

[Van Lathan]

It just. I would say, Eric, it's the picture. Yeah. Catching the wall. Like, it, like, it's. It's. It's. It's just this one is. It's one of those ones.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's just very Eric Adams.

[Van Lathan]

It's very.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, if you told me that Jordan Wells did this, I wouldn't be surprised either, because what if the polls.

[Van Lathan]

What the, bro? The Rasmussen poll. He's the number one in polls in the Republican Party. Couldn't fucking handle it. Like, we gotta go. We gotta go. Couldn't handle it. Not the nigga that do the Rasmussen poll. What if he's racist?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let's go.

[Van Lathan]

Let's go.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Honestly, I could hear Eric Adams saying it the exact same way. The exact same way.

[Van Lathan]

I just. You know what? We gotta go. It's just always interesting to me, like, what the breaking point is. Cause it's like, I've never told this story real quick before you got out of here. So there was a time when I flirted with conservatism.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, when was that? So I want to know what years we're in.

[Van Lathan]

This is like 91, 92.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So you were 11 or 12.

[Van Lathan]

Yep.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So it was. You know what, though?

[Van Lathan]

It.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So it was Bush.

[Van Lathan]

Nah, it was rush Limbaugh at 11 or 12. Let me tell you what happened. Let me tell y' all my story. Let me tell y' all my story.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And extreme conservatism is.

[Van Lathan]

So listen. So I'm in the gifted program. So my classmates in the gifted program, A lot of them, a lot. This guy named John Greco, who was into the stuff that I was into because I would be. There's this thought that, like, everybody in Baton Rouge go hunting. That's not true.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. I didn't know if that was a thought.

[Van Lathan]

Well, people act like, oh, I. If you say, oh, I've been hunting before, people go, oh, you from Louisiana. That makes a lot of sense. Baton Rouge got a half a million people in it. More. A lot of these people are straight city people that have country roots. Like, your parents might be from around there. Whatever. Whatever. They might be into a little fishing. They know people that go fishing. But to get up with your dad on a Saturday morning and go sit in a deer stand or to have rabbit dogs and all of that stuff, that's country shit. That a lot of your friends not into. Ryan, Ian, Gino, all of them nigg don't do that type of shit. You think Geno is gonna.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So his weapon of choice is Kane.

[Van Lathan]

His weapon of choice is that this Geno right here. I talked to Mark Lamondhill this morning and Marco Lamar Hill. I was talking about how they shimmy the freedom over there with.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But, you know, I know this. Cause remember, I Dated a guy from Zachary.

[Van Lathan]

Dated a Zach from Zachary.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Dad was a champion coon hunter.

[Van Lathan]

Coon hunter. Okay. Coons shoot the coon out the tree. Boy, when I think about hunting, now you shoot the raccoon. The poor raccoon fall way out the fucking tre. Anyway, so John Greco was a hunter, though. And I remember I was in class one time as we had gone fishing, and the teacher in the class was like, what did y' all catch? And I'm like, man, we caught a boat full of Sackolay. And all of the kids in the class was like, what the fuck is a sakolay? Oh, my God. A Sackolay. Like, blah, blah, blah, blah. What kind of. There's no such fish called a Sackolay. I'm like, yes, there is. Is. There's a fish called a sack. A sack is a fish is actually the best tasting fish, is the funnest fish to catch. And John Greco goes, oh, no, he's right. Sack. It's a light fish. It tastes great. They hit the. I'm like, yeah, John. So I start talking to John, and John has a sticker on his backpack on one of his books, and it says, rush is right. And I said, who is rushing? And Rush was Rush Limbaugh. So I started waking up at 6:00 in the morning. 6:00 clock in the morning. And watching Rush Limbaugh before school.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And what your parents say.

[Van Lathan]

Two different.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I want to know what your dad said.

[Van Lathan]

Two different responses. My mother is like, let him explore it. Total faith in the work she had done. Total faith. Let him explore it. My dad came to a breaking point. So these people came to the door and they were canvassing for Bill Clinton, okay? And this must have been 92 by this point. Maybe it was 91. But they were canvassing for Bill Clinton. And I stood in the doorway and debated back and forth with this guy. And the guy is looking at me like, I can't believe I'm seeing this. And I remember he said to me, he goes, how old are you? I'm like, I'm 12. And he goes, the Republicans have been in power in the White House every day that you've been alive.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Was this guy black or white?

[Van Lathan]

He was white. White with glasses. And this was a brave motherfucker. Had to be a brave motherfucker walking around our neighborhood knocking on doors for Bill Clinton. I wish I knew who this man was, right? And so we go back and forth. We're talking. I'll never forget it. He leaves. And my dad was Always good for just saying stuff and not saying it directly to you when he didn't want to, like, get on your ass. I remember he goes, wow. I tell you what, though. Any Uncle Tom that tries to come back to this house gonna find himself homeless. That's what I know. I know one goddamn thing is I ain't. I ain't gonna not a lot of niggas and raise Uncle Tom's. I'm not gonna be one of them. So anybody that leaves this house and comes back to this house or Uncle Tom, you're gonna sleep in the front yard, somebody else's yard. I don't. I'm like, what the fuck is. I don't know if he talking to me or whatever. He's talking to me. Whatever. And I flirted with it for a while, and I washed it. I washed it. And then. Then something happened.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Your breaking point.

[Van Lathan]

My breaking point. Rush Limbaugh took a picture of Chelsea Clinton and he put it on his desk. The policy I really couldn't make heads or tails of. I was too young, and it wasn't directly racist at that point that I could remember.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Remember.

[Van Lathan]

But I do remember what my breaking point was. Russell Limbaugh took a picture of Chelsea Clinton. Oh, no. He took a picture of a dog that was on his desk. It was like, a white dog. And he said that that dog was Chelsea Clinton. He was talking about her looks. Chelsea Clinton was one year younger than me. And I remember thinking, this guy's. I was like. And I went to school and I talked to Thomas Messina. His daddy was like an orthopedic surgeon or something like that. Thomas was cool. He used to play the guitar and all of that. They played Smells Like Team Spirit at the talent show. Everybody went crazy. He's like. Thomas went around like, Thomas, and he was like, yeah. He's like, that's a jerk. He's like, you. He's a van. You listen to John. And I was like, well, John, be hunting and fishing. So John. He's like, are you fucking. Do you know what, John? And I was like, oh, shit. And then I come back to my mom. I asked my mom. I asked my mom. And my mom goes, hmm. Well, you've had your fill of that. She was like, would you like a book? I'm like, yes. Autobiography. Malcolm X by Alice Haley.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Wow.

[Van Lathan]

Let me have it. Let me go out. Let me do my thing. She was like, would you like a book? Give me a book. After that, Young van radicalized.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That was my last time.

[Van Lathan]

Just kept getting worse. Kept annoying people more. Kept getting worse. Kept getting worse. I'll say all that to say that if the Rasmussen pole. If this guy is a Rasput. Is this guy's Chelsea Clinton. I'm not gonna stop him.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're not gonna stop him?

[Van Lathan]

Take your fingers. I'm so sorry for talking too much. Take your picky cows off.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm Rachel Lynn. Lindsay.

[Donnie]

My guy.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, Sam.