Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: MAGA Regrets, Marjorie Taylor Greene’s Apology, and Pharrell’s Philosophy
Date: November 18, 2025

Episode Overview

In this lively, wide-ranging episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay dissect issues spanning Black women in pop, MAGA defections, Marjorie Taylor Greene’s latest rebrand, viral Epstein conspiracy rumors, Michelle Obama’s pessimism on a female president, Pharrell’s philosophy on race and merit, and more. With their characteristic mix of sharp analysis and high-energy debate, Van and Rachel challenge each other—and their audience—to grapple with the cultural complexities at the crossroads of Blackness, politics, and music.

Key Discussion Topics & Insights

1. Black Pop Girlies: Gatekeeping and Double Standards (00:09–19:15)

• Van opens by praising Sabrina Carpenter’s “Taste,” sparking a conversation on the freedom White pop stars enjoy to be provocative versus their Black counterparts.
• Van’s thesis: Black female pop artists like Chloe Bailey, Normani, or Tyla still face unique pressures—often from within the Black community—not to be “too sexual” or controversial, unlike their White peers.
  • Quote: “Let the black pop girlies be as controversial and envelope pushing as everyone else… let them have a little bit of the controversy.” —Van Lathan (02:25)
• Rachel challenges this, attributing the constraints to industry and white audiences, not necessarily the Black community:
  • Quote: “It's the industry that... if you told me the industry stopped it, but our own community stopping them—I do not agree.” —Rachel Lindsay (03:31)
• They debate examples: Chloe Bailey as an outlier who received community backlash, but Rachel asserts SZA, Doja Cat, Kehlani, and Normani have faced far more barriers from mainstream (i.e., white) industry, not Black fans.
• Van’s counter: Acceptance in Black audiences is still essential to any Black artist’s crossover.
  • Quote: “The authenticity of a Black act is in its connection to Black people.” —Van Lathan (16:42)

2. MAGA Regrets & Defections: Should We Welcome Defectors? (20:36–38:29)

• Clip: Reverend Jordan Wells (formerly “the Black MAGA preacher”) denounces MAGA due to its overt racism but maintains conservative politics.
• Van erupts in laughter at Wells’ complaint about “the guy who leads the conservatives with polls,” amusingly misidentified as a “Rasmussen” pollster.
• Rachel’s critical response: She’s unmoved by Wells’ change of heart, seeing it as opportunism and performative.
  • Quote: “He took pride in being Black and MAGA. He thought that made him popular... I really could care less about Reverend Jordan Wells.” —Rachel Lindsay (25:38)
• Broader debate: Should the left embrace MAGA defectors?
  • Van: References Cold War defectors—useful, but must be watched closely.
    • Quote: “There is a method... when someone is defecting, you accept that defector and give them a soft bed to lay in.” (29:18)
  • Rachel: Accept only true defectors—those who denounce MAGA/Trump, not those merely voicing regrets yet planning to support Trump again (like the lumber mill owners hurt by tariffs at 33:04).
    • Quote: “There’s a difference between those who regret and those who actually defect.”

3. Marjorie Taylor Greene’s “Apology” and Political Rebranding (46:23-51:54)

• Clip played: Marjorie Taylor Greene apologizes for “toxic politics,” claims to be “putting down the knives,” and calls for unity.
• Rachel comes out swinging: She refuses to rate the apology—saying it’s non-existent and devoid of real accountability.
  • Quote: “I’m not rating it. I don’t give a shit about what Marjorie Taylor Greene has to say right now. I don’t.” —Rachel (46:43)
  • Rachel notes MTG refuses to own up to specific election denialism and other offensive actions, suggesting her new “moderation” is performative for political gain post-Trump rejection.
• Van agrees: Apology NA (not applicable)—“she’s got to do a lot more to convince people her worldview has changed.”

4. Epstein, Trump, and Viral Conspiracies (53:04–58:02)

• Van discusses: Leaked emails between Jeffrey Epstein’s brother and Epstein, referencing an “inside joke” about Trump and Bill Clinton.
• Van jokingly speculates, for the humor, that “Donald Trump sucked Bill Clinton’s dick,” lampooning the way right-wing media believes in and spreads baseless rumors.
  • Quote: “I choose to believe that Donald Trump sucked Bill Clinton’s dick. And that is my choice… I can’t be canceled for it!” —Van Lathan (54:01)
• Rachel, nonplussed but supportive: “I’m happy that you are choosing to believe what you want to believe and not letting other people dictate that for you.”

5. Michelle Obama on America’s “Readiness” for a Woman President (58:13–71:44)

• Clip played: Michelle Obama, promoting her new book “Look,” says America still isn’t ready for a female president, drawing on Kamala Harris’s experience.
  • Quote: “As we saw in this past election, sadly, we ain't ready. That's why I'm like, don't even look at me about running because you all are lying. You're not ready for a woman. You are not.” —Michelle Obama (58:20)
• Rachel wholeheartedly agrees: Believes misogyny and racism keep America from electing women, citing conversations she had with voters post-election.
• Van’s nuanced take: While agreeing, he points out America’s never “ready”—progress always comes from disruptive, extraordinary individuals who seize moments of crisis.
  • Quote: “America is never ready, never going to be ready… You always have to take it. You always have to force it.” —Van Lathan (64:01)
• Rachel: Even beloved figures like Michelle Obama would face insurmountable barriers in a presidential run.

6. Pharrell’s Philosophy: Racial Meritocracy vs. Structural Barriers (73:35–89:24)

• Clip played: Pharrell, after receiving a key to Miami, iterates distrust of both political sides, skepticism of DEI, arguing Black folks should focus on being “the best” rather than relying on identity-based opportunities.
  • Quote: “Should support these businesses… based on the thesis that we're the best, not because we are a total shade of a skin color.” —Pharrell (74:36)
• Van critiques Pharrell’s stance:
  • Points out fame and success can disconnect Black creatives from community realities; Pharrell benefits from a system that is deeply political.
  • Quote: “The geniuses that you have given prodigious wealth to… they are not in community with you… It doesn’t matter what they say.” —Van Lathan (84:30)
• Rachel's rebuttal: It’s a choice to disconnect from community struggles—though Pharrell is privileged, he can choose to stay engaged.
  • Quote: “They have chosen to not understand you… you are making a choice to detach yourself from it.” —Rachel Lindsay (85:39)
• Shared conclusion: True meritocracy is impossible in a rigged system; talent alone is not always enough in America.

7. NYC Mayor Eric Adams’s Awkward Speech in Israel (96:45–102:33)

• Clip played: Adams says he “serves” Israel during a trip—Van and Rachel riff on the optics and political risks.
• Van uses a personal anecdote to explain when allies “try too hard” and end up being counterproductive, comparing it to Adams’s performativity.
  • Quote: “Don’t say that you were serving somebody other than the citizens of New York when you’re the mayor of New York.” —Van (97:47)
• Rachel: “It just feels performative.”

8. Van’s Childhood Flirtation with Conservatism (102:33–110:22)

• Van tells a vivid story about being briefly swayed by Rush Limbaugh at age 12, before “radicalizing” after learning about Limbaugh’s racism.
  • His mother’s response: offering him Malcolm X’s autobiography—a turning point for Van.
  • Quote: “Young Van, radicalized. That was my last time [with conservatism]—just kept getting worse…. (110:01)

Notable Quotes by Segment

On Black pop culture double standards:

• “Let the black pop girlies be as controversial and envelope pushing as everyone else.” —Van (02:25)
  On MAGA defectors:
• “There’s a difference between those people who have regrets...and those people who say, ‘I was wrong and now I'm gonna come over.’” —Rachel (31:16)
  On Marjorie Taylor Greene:
• “I’m not rating it. I don’t give a shit about what Marjorie Taylor Greene has to say.” —Rachel (46:43)
  On Michelle Obama & female presidents:
• “As we saw in this past election, sadly, we ain’t ready… You’re not ready for a woman. You are not.” —Michelle Obama (58:20)
• “America is never ready, never going to be ready… You have to take it. You have to force it.” —Van (64:01)
  On Pharrell’s meritocracy take:
• “It’s about us having the best ambition… you should support these businesses based on the thesis that we’re the best, not because of our skin color.” —Pharrell (74:36)
• “There is an intellectual… or an activist that would love for you … to pay attention to the work that they’re doing… as much as we pay attention to all of these other people.” —Van (84:30)
  On Mayor Eric Adams (in Israel):
• “Don’t say you’re serving someone other than the citizens of New York when you’re the mayor of New York.” —Van (97:47)

Timestamped Highlights

• 00:09–19:15: Black women in pop and double standards
• 20:36–38:29: MAGA regrets and “defectors”—how should progressives respond?
• 46:23–51:54: Marjorie Taylor Greene’s apology, performative or genuine?
• 53:04–58:02: Epstein-Trump-Clinton rumors & Van’s comedic “beliefs”
• 58:13–71:44: Michelle Obama, Kamala Harris, and the challenge of a woman president
• 73:35–89:24: Pharrell's philosophy on being "the best", DEI, and America’s myth of meritocracy
• 96:45–102:33: Mayor Adams’s Israel speech, embarrassment, and performativity
• 102:33–110:22: Van’s childhood brush with conservatism and awakening

Tone and Style

• Van: Playful, sharp, sometimes irreverent (“I choose to believe Trump sucked Clinton’s d**k…”), insistent on cultural introspection, always eager to turn debate into a teachable moment.
• Rachel: Direct, often indignant, focused on accountability and community impact, ever ready to push back (especially on issues of race/gender).

In Summary

The episode is a sprawling, energetic, and sharply critical tour through culture, politics, and the peculiarities of race and gender in America. Van and Rachel’s dynamic—alternately comic and confrontational—gives listeners a rich, honest set of perspectives on the week’s hot topics. Their willingness to dig into uncomfortable topics, challenge famous figures, and sometimes each other, makes for an engaging, must-listen conversation for anyone tracking Black life and politics in 2025.