Magic City Night Canceled and Target Boycott Over? Plus, Ryan Michelle Bathé on ‘Paradise’ Season 2

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Magic City Night Canceled and Target Boycott Over? Plus, Ryan Michelle Bathé on ‘Paradise’ Season 2
Date: March 13, 2026
Podcast Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay dive into hot topics at the intersection of Black culture, politics, sports, and entertainment. This episode covers the controversy behind the Atlanta Hawks' canceled Magic City Night, the confusion over the Target boycott's "end," national security scare tactics and societal distrust, and an interview with actress Ryan Michelle Bathé on Season 2 of ‘Paradise’ and Black Greek life. Notable for its blend of sharp analysis and humor, the episode explores tough debates, cultural contradictions, and the role of Black institutions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Magic City Night Canceled by the NBA (03:32–14:52)

• Backstory: The Atlanta Hawks' "Magic City Night" (a celebration of an iconic Atlanta strip club) was canceled by the NBA after backlash, notably from certain players and conservative voices.
• Cultural Double Standards:
  • Van and Rachel criticize the league for “acting holier than thou,” given how it allows players with histories of violence to remain, but polices events celebrating parts of Atlanta’s Black culture.
  • Van:

    "The shame that you get for inspiring lust is a different type of shame than the shame you get for inspiring violence." (08:13)

• Society’s Relationship to Sex:
  • Van argues America uniquely stigmatizes sexual expression—especially female agency—while normalizing violence or gluttony.
  • Rachel notes the event was misunderstood: it wasn’t bringing a “strip club” in the arena, and many children already witness similar dance performances.

Memorable Moment:
Van compares “Magic City Night” to Military Night at NBA arenas, highlighting normalized celebration of violence versus stigmatized sexual culture.
Rachel:

"When you really start digging into head coaches in the NBA that have pled guilty to domestic violence, players with illegal firearms, DUIs, sexual abuse... but for a woman to choose a certain career... that is problematic?" (09:45)

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2. Bam Adebayo’s 83 Points & The Spirit of Competition (15:07–26:44)

• Debate on Bam’s Achievement:
  • Rachel questions the backlash Bam received after scoring more than Kobe’s 81 points (with people downgrading his achievement).
  • Van digs into the mechanics of the game, suggesting the last part became "stat padding" (on-purpose missed free-throws to chase records), reflective of modern NBA culture’s focus on statistics over competition spirit.
  • Van:

    "If you watch from 70 points on, it was some dumbass romper room bullshit." (16:34)

• Generational Differences:
  • The conversation touches on how perceptions of basketball and competition have shifted, as “gaming the system” (tanking, load management, stat-chasing) becomes more visible.
  • Rachel suggests the moment should be separated from general NBA culture critiques, giving Bam his due.

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3. Fearmongering, Iran, and American Distrust (27:04–43:47)

• War Propaganda?
  • The FBI warned of potential Iranian drone attacks on California, but reports lack specifics, leading Van to view it as “war propaganda” meant to stoke public fear and justify unpopular wars.
  • Van:

    “This almost is a tantamount to war propaganda. The war in Iran is incredibly unpopular... making the war popular is making Americans believe that Iran posed an imminent threat…” (30:23)

• Societal Apathy & Distrust:
  • Rachel observes growing public indifference and distrust—few take such reports as seriously as they might have five years ago.
  • Van argues this normalization of fear, and skepticism towards government alerts, reflects broader manipulation tactics.
• Personal Prep:
  • Van jokes (with some seriousness) about his doomsday prepping—stockpiling water, tools, and seeds—highlighting the reality of how far social anxiety over instability can extend.

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4. Harvey Weinstein’s Jail Interview (44:07–60:11)

• Should We Platform Abusers?
  • Rachel is adamant that giving Weinstein a media platform is retraumatizing for his countless victims and serves no productive purpose.
  • Van is initially curious: is there any contrition, has he evolved, does his perspective offer insight? He suggests reading the interview is a masterclass in how abuse of power and grandiosity can blind someone to their crimes.
  • Standout Quote:

    “He painted a picture of a guy who just completely does not understand the moment... Everything to Harvey Weinstein was food. People's emotions were to be consumed. Their humanity was to be consumed...” —Van (54:38)

• Purpose of Such Interviews:
  • Ends with a nuanced reflection: remembering the darkness is necessary to avoid repeat offenders, but giving them a platform is fraught and potentially harmful.

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5. Ari Lennox, Toxic Energy, and the “Nice Guy” Debate (61:13–77:29)

• Toxic Attraction:
  • Audio from Ari Lennox reflects regret over investing time in “toxic energy.” Van and Rachel unpack the societal glamorization of “excitement” and “deviance” in relationships.
  • Van:

    “If you want a mate, it is your responsibility to be desirable... Be somebody that people want to have sex with.” (75:20)

• Nice Guy Stereotype:
  • The hosts challenge the “nice guys finish last” narrative, noting “nice” is subjective and doesn’t entitle anyone to love or attention.
  • Rachel urges realism, noting being “nice” isn’t always attractive; compatibility and mutual attraction are complex.

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6. Target Boycott Confusion and Community Leadership (78:16–99:23)

• Is the Boycott Over?
  • Pastor Jamal Bryant declared an "end" to the Target boycott, citing progress toward demands.
  • Rachel strongly critiques Bryant for centering himself and misrepresenting collective decisions. She underscores that not all organizers, especially original boycott leaders like Nina Turner and Tamika Mallory, agree it’s over.
  • Rachel:

    “Don’t get here and be like, this is the Montgomery boycott. And then you pull out and aren’t truthful about what it is Target has or hasn’t done for the community. He is a problem to this cause...” (91:16)

• Communication and Movement Pitfalls:
  • Confusion over “victory” risks undermining faith in Black economic action; Van highlights the need for clear goals and unity in organizing (97:30).

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7. Real Housewives, Black Fraternities & Sororities, and Institutional Critique (99:24–141:30)

• Pop Culture Sidebar:
  • Lighthearted speculation: Van suggests prosecutors target Real Housewives for legal drama and visibility, paralleling “hip hop police.”
• Black Greek Life: Pride, Critique, and Denouncing (127:47–141:30):
  • Interview with Ryan Michelle Bathé (Delta Sigma Theta) delves into the meaning, legacy, and recent trend of publicly denouncing Black Greek organizations under claims of them being “demonic.”
  • Ryan and Rachel defend the historic significance and community impact of D9 orgs and the need to resist self-serving public denouncements.
  • Ryan Michelle Bathé:

    “These were people that said...We’re the first people to get educated...The onus that was upon that generation...I can only imagine what those 1920-year-olds must have felt…” (135:05)

  • Van calls for honest, but context-aware, critiques rather than public spectacle or “clout chasing.”

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8. Interview: Ryan Michelle Bathé on ‘Paradise’ Season 2 and Companion Podcast (108:20–164:45)

• Season 2 Praise:

  • Van, Rachel, and Ryan are effusive about ‘Paradise’ Season 2, especially its emotional depth and surprising story progression.
  • Ryan:

    “It was one of the best moments of my career, to be on a show that I would watch.” (114:41)

  • She discusses being a longtime fan, the thrill of joining the project, and the refreshing humility of its writers.

• The Power of Black Women Viewership:

  • Ryan credits Black women for boosting the show’s success through word-of-mouth and online support.

• Societal Paranoia & Apocalyptic Media:

  • Discussion segues into the plausibility of secret underground cities and governmental cover-ups—a reflection of collective anxiety in today's society.

• Black Fraternities and Navigating White Spaces:

  • Ryan, as a Delta, and Van joke about the dynamics of Black students in white Greek orgs—naming the “buffer” role and social overcompensation of Black men in white fraternities.

• Marriage, Podcasting, and Family Life:

  • Ryan shares insights on 20 years of marriage to Sterling K. Brown and their podcasting dynamic, including public vulnerability and balancing privacy.

Memorable (Funny) Moment:

• Discussion of Sterling’s “wacky Aries energy”—going off on food tangents in interviews, singing at random, and how “Black boys need to be allowed to be wacky.” (161:21)

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9. Final Notes, Political Engagement, and Solidarity (164:49–end)

• Supporting Ken Barnes for Louisiana Senate:
  • Van promotes Barnes as a progressive candidate needing support in an election run-off.
• On Antisemitism:
  • In light of a synagogue attack, Van and Rachel clearly state their condemnation of antisemitism and solidarity with the Jewish community, clarifying that their critiques of Israeli policy are not conjoined with bigotry.
  • Van:

    “There is in no way from me going to be any type of downplaying of the existential threat that Jewish people in this country and worldwide are facing at this time.” (168:53)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Sex and Violence:

  “The shame that you get for inspiring lust is a different type of shame than the shame you get for inspiring violence.” —Van (08:13)

• On National Disillusionment:

  “I just was kind of like, should I be concerned? ...I don't know if I believe the FBI. I don't know if I believe our government.” —Rachel (29:47)

• On the “Nice Guy” Debate:

  “If you want a mate, it is your responsibility to be desirable.” —Van (75:20)

• On the Target Boycott:

  “He is a problem to this cause with what he did… what he did hurt, maybe temporarily... if you just read the headline and you follow Jamal Bryant, you think the boycott is over.” —Rachel (91:16)

• On Black Greek Life:

  “If you want to walk away, walk away, but when you start talking about our institutions and you start being a tool of people who are trying to take away things… you gotta miss me with that.” —Ryan Michelle Bathé (137:09)

• On Interviewing Abusers:

  “He painted a picture of a guy who just completely does not understand the moment... Everything to Harvey Weinstein was food. People's emotions were to be consumed...” —Van (54:38)

• On Black Boys and Whimsy:

  “People need to let Black boys have wacky energy. Just let us be wacky.” —Ryan & Van (161:53)

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Guest Segment – Ryan Michelle Bathé (108:20–164:45)

Topics Covered:

• Joining 'Paradise' season 2 and the emotional resonance of the show.
• The power of Black women in determining pop culture success.
• Experiences in Black Greek life and the meaning of sisterhood.
• Navigating public marriage, privacy, and the realities of creation during Hollywood strikes.
• The value of honest internal critique of Black institutions versus performative, public denouncements.

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Conclusion

This episode demonstrates Higher Learning’s signature blend of sharp-tongued cultural critique, humor, and prioritization of nuanced, honest discussion. From the politics of the NBA to debates over community leadership, Black institutional life, and pop culture, Van and Rachel create space for not only opinion and analysis but also deep self-reflection, with the help of engaging guests like Ryan Michelle Bathé. The episode is a rich exploration of contemporary Black life, organizing, representation, and resilience amidst complexity.

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For listeners seeking timestamps of main segments:

• Magic City Night Cancellation: 03:32–14:52
• NBA/Bam Adebayo’s 83 points: 15:07–26:44
• Iran Threat & National Distrust: 27:04–43:47
• Weinstein Jail Interview: 44:07–60:11
• Ari Lennox & Relationship Dynamics: 61:13–77:29
• Target Boycott Debate: 78:16–99:23
• Black Fraternities, Sororities, Denouncing Orgs: 127:47–141:30
• Ryan Michelle Bathé Interview: 108:20–164:45

Episode ends with a political endorsement and statements in solidarity with the Jewish community.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Yo, yo, yo. Thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on. It is Ivan Lathan Jr. And it's

[B]

me, Rachel and Lindsey.

[A]

We have Ryan, Michelle Bethea coming up on the podcast later. She hosts the she's actress podcaster. She hosts the Paradise Companion podcast. Love Paradise.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

She does a podcast, another podcast with her husband, Sterling K. Brown.

[B]

Yeah, we don't always agree.

[A]

We don't always agree. And I can't wait.

[B]

She's a friend.

[A]

She's a friend of yours? You like her. You guys go to Aloe together?

[B]

You want to go? Why don't you come on with me?

[A]

I want to go.

[B]

We do not go to Aloe together. But we could.

[A]

But we are both Deltas, Delta Sigma Theta. We talk a little bit about that. We talk about black people and white folks, fraternities and sororities with Chelsea is one of them. Chelsea.

[B]

She's not alone. But yes, Chelsea. Chelsea Stark Jones here at the Ringer is one of them.

[A]

She's in a white sorority.

[B]

She is.

[A]

What was she again? What's it called? Sigma. What is it?

[B]

I, I, I don't know. I don't want to say the wrong thing.

[A]

Sigma Delta.

[B]

But you're fascinated by it.

[C]

I think it's Sigma Kappa.

[A]

Sigma Kappa. Sigma Kappa. Rush. Yep, it's, it's Rush Sigma Kappa. Donnie. Donnie. Yep. You went to an hbcu? Well, you went to HBCU and PWI just like myself. You did both. You did double duty. What was your experience with the black kids and white fraternities at the PWIs? Did you have any? Yeah, I knew some of them. I mean, yeah, it was tough. They definitely were more comfortable with their frat brothers than they were with my friends. But yeah, it was, they were a little off, I would say. Something was off. Yeah, stuff.

[B]

I never was around them, not the women or the men. I just had such a different experience because of the school I went to growing up my whole life. When I went to college, it was, I was completely immersed in what little black experiences at a PWI that I could. So I never went. I think I went to one fraternity party. My, my experience was more that the athletes would go to these parties than I would see black people a part of the fraternities.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

this episode is brought to you by Netflix. All right, baseball fans, get ready. For the first time in history, the major league season kicks off with one exclusive opening night game live on Netflix. The New York Yankees, led by seven time officer Aaron Judge, roll into the San Francisco Bay to battle Rafael Devers and the San Francisco Giants. The wait is over. It's time to play ball. Watch MLB Opening Night. The New York Yankees versus the San Francisco Giants live on Netflix Wednesday, March 25th at 8:00pm Eastern Time, 5:00pm Pacific Time. Let's get into the show. Donnie. Quick hitters. All right. The NBA head has forced the Atlanta Hawks to cancel their planned Magic City night, which was supposed to happen on the 16th against the Orlando Magic. We talked about this. This is after some backlash from Luke Cornett of the San Antonio Spurs. And I saw Al Horford hopped in to lend his support to Luke, but yeah, it's done. No Magic City. I feel like the way they treated Al Horford for jumping in on this was kind of unfair.

[B]

Was it an FBA thing?

[A]

It wasn't an FBA thing. Although I'm glad that you brought that up. Cause now they'll run with that. But it wasn't an FBA thing. It was them bringing up when his sister did F. Mary. I'm not even gonna bring it up. I'm not gonna lie.

[B]

Well, I'm unfamiliar with it and I'm sure other people are, too.

[A]

Well, Al Horford's sister at one point did f marry, kill with his teammates. Okay? And they brought that up. Which has nothing to do with the Magic City thing. They brought that up and they put it out there and it was like, hey, don't worry about Magic City. Control your sister. Look, this is over. He, Luke Cornette, Al Horford. Not just them. There were a lot of people from within the black Church. A lot of people within black culture that had a problem with this, and now it looks like it's not going to happen.

[B]

Was it really that big of a. Was. Was the. Was the outrage really that big of a deal? And I guess, you know what? Not that I'm, like, trying to die on this hill or anything. I've actually never been to Magic City, which is shocking. But you have, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So even if I have never been, and I still understand, I guess, the cultural significance, I will say, when it comes to music, even athletes, when it comes to food, when it comes to just, like, what this staple means to the city, I even recognize that. And I guess I just have an issue with the league acting holier than thou when it comes to this. When you've allowed people to play in your league who have been accused of domestic violence, sexual abuse, criminal charges, but this can't happen because there were not. It has been confirmed. Because, remember last time we were talking about it, it was like, well, I have a. I highly doubt there's gonna. They're bringing the strip club to the arena. This was gonna be like merch. It was gonna be food. TI Was performing. He still is performing. So I just don't understand how it's bad for this, but we're gonna ignore this part of it. Can't really act holier than thou.

[A]

Well, I think the answer to the question is obvious. It all comes back to our relationship with sex. Even as I hear this called out as both a cultural crime and a spiritual crime, our relationship to sex is special. The shame that you get for inspiring lust is a different type of shame. It's a different type of shame then the shame you get for inspiring violence. Completely different type of thing. People talk about, you know, kids being in NBA arena and them celebrating the strip club. I mean, they're drinking in that arena. There are all women already, women dancing for entertainment at the arena. This is not to say that if you are a part of a dance team at an arena, you're, you know, the Miami Heat dancers or the Laker Girls or anything like that, that you are an exotic dancer. I'm not saying that at all, but I'm saying those women are out there a lot of the time for their beauty, for their femininity, and because they add to the show in that way. Right? So, like, there are people at these games that are, you know, the guys on the court are cursing. They're drunk people. There's all kinds of. It could be whatever, whatever. What I'm saying is that creating a kid friendly atmosphere is a part of the calculus at an NBA game or a sporting event. It's not the whole calculus.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And when we talk about all of these things that we don't want, we have a special, special, special category for anything that inspires lust or sex for whatever reason. And that is not spiritual to me. Because what is spiritual to me is that sins are the same. Like, sins are the same, like, supposed to be. They're supposed to be, right? So, like, you know, when Spider man sees a criminal, he doesn't go up to the criminal and give him the book of Jesus and tell the criminal about why he shouldn't be doing what he's doing and turn the other sheik, he kicks him in his fucking face. And that's what the Avengers do. And that's what the rest of the people that your kids love do. Kids playing video games. The video games kids shooting each other, like blowing people's head. They fortnite, running around shooting people, all of that stuff.

[B]

Yeah, cool.

[A]

Put a titty in fortnite and see how things change. I'm just saying that we have a special shame and a special relationship that is reserved for the one thing that our bodies tell us we want to do all the time, which is sex. And it's difficult to talk about, it's difficult to litigate. It's just difficult to get anyone on the page of having a conversation about this. Because the shame that like, exists with our relationship around sex, particularly in this culture, is just. It's penetrating. It's like suffocating.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it starts at a very young age. You're immediately told what you're like, your relationship, usually your relationship to nudity, to sex, to what you can and can't watch, what you can and can't go, to what you can and can't like. It's so ingrained for you from, from a young age, it's hard to separate it whether you are religious or not. But we also, especially as church and state continue to mix, it's also a part of our politics as well. But I just, I guess I just, I wish it was almost a bigger conversation and not brushed off so much. Because when you really start digging into head coaches in the NBA that have pled guilty to domestic violence, players with illegal firearms that may have been suspended and allowed to come back and play DUIs, sexual abuse, all these things, and that's. You're suspended and that's okay. But for a woman to choose a certain career, it is her choice and that is how she chooses to make money. That you are telling her that she. That that is problematic, that she does, that she's not forced into it. This is a choice.

[A]

She's inspiring the one thing that society says she cannot inspire. Like our cultural mythology around how we regulate our bodies and what is or is not decent is just different. There are people that will tell you that if a woman inspires lust, she's lost her ability to not consent to sex. Like there is a crime that lust is connected to. There's a crime that a sexual urge is connected to. It's the one thing you're supposed to suppress. And this wasn't even that. This was a celebration. Look, we can have good faith arguments about this, about what is supposed to exist inside of a culture, what is positive, what is negative. We can. I'm not saying that we can't. I'm not saying that. There's no argument here. Right? I'm not. But what I'm saying is if we are to have that argument, you can go to one of these games and buy a 6,000 calorie hamburger gluttony. Like you. We can have all like capitalism. Like most families can't even afford to take their kids to NBA games because it's too expensive. Greed. If we're going to talk about the culture from a puritanical sense and what it makes sense to expose children to or what it makes sense to expose families to, that is a really wide and far reaching argument. But I keep trying to tell people the fact that you want to fuck and you want to come, that is culturally outlawed. You're not supposed to want that. You're supposed to want it, but you're not supposed to tell anyone. You're supposed to tell people, but not too loudly. You're supposed to be able to discuss it and every.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like everybody's getting uncomfortable now. What is it? It's like.

[B]

No, I'm not getting uncomfortable now. I'm just saying that. That what you're talking about isn't even, in my opinion, what Magic City Night would have been about. I think the. I love the comparison about the dancers that are on teams, right? They way they wear short shorts, they wear crop tops, they show skin, they be. They dance, they twerk, they do all that. And it's meant to be sexy. It's meant.

[A]

But that is what Magic City Night is about.

[B]

No, I.

[A]

It's not. Magic City Night wasn't going to be about that, but it was what the night represented.

[B]

I don't even Think. Okay, I get you.

[A]

Let me ask you this.

[B]

You have to even take.

[A]

And I don't want to. I don't want to go too, too far on this, but I'm sure there's a military night, right? Oh, yeah, I'm sure there's a military night, right? Look, I get. Guys, just please explain. Vance compared like a gentleman's club to the military. No, what I'm saying is that when you celebrate the military night, right, you're celebrating people that go out in service. You're celebrating all kinds of things, right, that don't just have to do with the fact that the primary job of the military is to send people places to blow people up and burn their faces off. Like that's. And look, we live in a world where I guess sometimes you gotta shoot people and burn people's faces off. We get that. But underneath the celebration of service and the celebration of honor and discipline and all of those things that the military has been structured around, is that the fact that that machine kills people? And so that is okay. There's no problem with that, right? Because violence is completely normalized in our culture. Now, if I was to say the Magic City night is a celebration of a cultural staple of Atlanta, of a black owned business, of all of these things, but behind it, behind it is a place where naked women dance. That is disqualifying. Those two things aren't congruent.

[B]

I get you.

[A]

So anyway, but you know, shout out to everybody. We'll go anyway. All right, Donnie, what's next? Stan in the NBA, Bam Adebayo earlier this week passed Kobe Bryant's 81 points

[C]

to score 83 himself against the Washington Wizards.

[A]

I know Van is a Lakers fan. Rachel, you've probably been to some Heat games. You lived in Miami. What were y' all's reaction to this

[C]

historic night at the games?

[B]

Help me understand why everybody is so upset. I. I seen it on espn. I saw you guys talked about it on the Ringerverse. I saw Kev Stage put up how people are calling him a cornball for celebrating the fact that Bam dropped 83 points. Why is it that big of a deal? Why? I get. Obviously I understand what Kobe means, and I understand. I saw the game. I get it. I understand that it was a totally different type of game than what Bam was playing in with this. I get it. But why do we have to put Bam down to preserve or to. In order to talk about what Kobe did? Like, why can't we just be like, oh, okay, that's great. Bam did It. But it still wasn't as great as Kobe, even though it was two less points. Why is this happening? Please help me understand why this is such an issue.

[A]

Did you watch the game?

[B]

No, I'm not gonna watch this game. But I saw statistically how he created it. I know it's not the same thing as the Kobe game.

[A]

Well, let me just say this. Bam Adebayo, 83 points. Fantastic.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

It's fantastic. It's what you watch sports for. To see these nights where these athletes catch lightning in a bottle and just become unstoppable. Now if you watch the entire game, which I went back and did. Cause I didn't watch the entire game at first. I started watching the game when everybody was like, hey. Cause I got league pass up. Everybody was like, hey, Bam's got like 68 points or 65 points, whatever the fuck it is. I'm like, oh, shit. And then they're like, but it's the third quarter. I'm like, what? And he's still playing. They're going for it. I get there. Bam's got 70 points. If you watch from 70 points on the game with some fucking bullshit, and that's just what is what it is. And you guys can say whatever you want. If you watch from 70 points on. It was some dumbass romper room bullshit. It was.

[B]

So they were trying to help him to get. To break the record.

[A]

This is the difference. To me, the difference is when Kobe was doing his thing, obviously his teammates were getting him the ball because he was on a heater in this one. They were gaming the NBA rules and the different situations to get Bam more possessions, to get it.

[B]

After a certain amount of time, Right. After a certain amount of time, after he was on a roll, after he

[A]

was on a roll. 30 in the first, all of this stuff has happened, and now it's like, miss a free throw to get him an extra possession. Now it's like, foul to get an extra possession. I'm sorry, that's bullshit. League bullshit. And there's really nobody that really cares about the game inside of the game that's not going to say that. Now. Does he still have to make the free throws and go out there and put the ball in his hands and go do the things that he needed to do to score 83 points? Yeah, but this is a problem that people have with the modern NBA. A problem that people have with the modern NBA is that there is a respect for, I guess, the structure of the game, but not the spirit of the game.

[B]

Okay? I understand that if this was happening all the time, it is with trying to get your players. Players to get 83 points. Like we've seen before, where you know going into the game that this player is about to set a record for the most points scored or the most rebounds ever. He's about to beat somebody, move up the chart and you see them throw them the ball to get those last two points. We've seen that before. I could, I could get down with this argument. If you constantly saw players trying to get other player teammates trying to get their players to beat the record 81 points at the time, what it was before this. I could also understand if they went into the game and they were like, hey, Bam, we are going to make sure you get this many points, but he was already having a fantastic game. Would you. Are you honest, honestly telling me if you're this, if you're Bam's teammate and you see he's got 70 points, 65 points, just on like, on a heater, as you say, you're not going to be like, man, we should give, we should make more opportunities for Bam to get the ball. What teammate wouldn't do that?

[A]

So listen, that's fine. What I'm like, what. I'm not, I'm not saying that the teammate shouldn't do this. What I'm saying is, like, in the last couple of years, we've seen 83 by Bam, 73 by Luka, 71 by Dame, 71 by Donovan Mitchell, 70 by Joel Embiid. This is happening a lot, right? Part of the reason why it's happening is because the speed of the game is different, the pace of the game is different, the game is more open. These guys can really score. But the rules are different.

[B]

The rules are different, the defense is different.

[A]

But this is what I'm saying, though what you're saying about this specific instance is one thing, but take the NBA culture right now, the end game culture as a whole.

[B]

Okay, I get that.

[A]

And talk about load management.

[B]

Yeah, I get that.

[A]

Guys coming in and playing. Talk about tanking. Talk about all the things that don't lend themselves to the spirit of good basketball, to what you want, which is guys going on the court, stepping on the court every night, going, nobody is better than me. I'm unstoppable. I will impose my will on the other guy. The essence of competition, which I'm gonna be on the court as much as possible. This game was a game against a Wizards team that's tanking. So they are tanking. Sar one of their guys only plays, like, 20 minutes.

[B]

They still scored 130 points.

[A]

I know, but, like, they lost by, like, 30. So bam. And them. So bam. And is scoring all of these points against a tanking NBA team, right? And it's not like Kobe scored 81 against the goddamn 87 Pistons either. But he's scoring all of these points against a tanking NBA team that has a lot of their guys out. Then at the end of the game, they. They file Baden and playing with the. It's like this was a flashpoint moment for some people. Take Kobe out of it for kind of some of the Mickey Mouse shit that the league is on right now.

[B]

So I understand the argument as a whole. If I'm talking particularly about this game, I don't think that this is something that points to. I think you're right. There's a bigger issue. I don't even watch basketball in the same way that I used to. It's totally different, I feel like, from the way we grew up watching it. I don't think, though, that this game should be a part of that conversation. I understand why when you talk all about it, but I just feel like it's truly taking away from something that he did. It feels like in history, as we go on, there will always be, like, kind of like a stain on this moment, and this is actually a big deal. You are right about the culture of the NBA. It's why we continuously see them try to change things with the All Star game. Adding, doing the play in, all of that. But this game should not be, in my opinion, a part of that conversation. I get how it lends to it, but I think what you're talking about is a little bit separate from this.

[A]

So I don't. So two things. Number one, you didn't watch the game.

[B]

I did not. I don't need to to statistically understand what's happening. Can we both. Can we both agree that he was doing well?

[A]

No, I know, but what I'm saying is if you watch the game and you see somebody shooting a free throw and then they make the first free throw and then the second free throw, they miss on purpose.

[B]

At what point?

[A]

So that he can get the ball back, so that he can go score to. Because he's close. It's like, at what point in the

[B]

game were they doing that?

[A]

What I'm saying, though, is. I understand, but what I'm saying is, like, let him go get the record. Like, do it ethically. I'm not taking anything away from what Bam was able to do because once again, you still gotta do it. But this is not in a vacuum when people have, like, criticisms about the NBA. It's not in a vacuum. It's like, how far do you want this to go? And by the way, we've had this conversation before. Like, Brett Favre is dropping back at quarterback. Michael Strahan is there. Michael Strahan is on a rush. He's very close to breaking the single season sacks record. Brett Favre goes down so that he can break that single season sacks record. Michael Strahan gets the sack. Brett Favre gets up, shakes his hand. Right? That's fine, people. No, no, I'm not saying it's fine, but I'm saying it's fine that they decided that they wanted to do that. This is not exactly the same situation because the Wizards at this point, I guess, had some shred of dignity and were trying to deny the ball and stop Ban from getting the ball. They were putting two or three people on them. Okay, so in this point, the opposition didn't help him. But still, like, what you want to see is pure competition with a spirit of competition and not shenanigans. Now, Jade has something to say. Jade, you keep you going back and forth over there. What are you trying to say?

[C]

I just think that I'm kind of agreeing to.

[B]

Rachel, I watch the game, and I

[C]

understand that you're saying, you know, they're missing free throws on purpose and stuff,

[B]

but it's not like this hasn't happened

[C]

before in the NBA. And it's not like there. There haven't been other teams and people who have done that before, so.

[A]

Done what before?

[C]

Like miss free throws on purpose?

[A]

Miss free throws on purpose to win a game. Yes.

[B]

Or for someone to get a certain

[C]

opportunity to shoot or whatever.

[B]

That. That isn't something that is only special

[C]

to this one game.

[A]

You miss free throws on purpose so that you can get another possession if you're down so you can win the game. Not to manipulate statistics, but it's all about winning.

[B]

If they were doing it the whole game, if they did it after, oh, he's got 70 points. We're gonna. I'm not mad at.

[C]

This was. I can. I can agree that it was. The intent behind that last, like, four minutes of the game was to get bam, those points.

[B]

But it's like, why not?

[C]

He's right there.

[A]

Let him go. Get. Okay, See this. Okay, I understand this. This is. I. I also feel like. I also feel like this is a generational difference of the people of the. We didn't know 50, 40, 90 meant people. This is like a generational difference from sort of the. More like, this is a. This is a. This is a generational thing. Because once again. Once again, I'm not like, I get it. I understand it. But there is something to me, and we move on after this, that, like, when you just look at the league itself, when you look at when all of this started to. It started to be. The league started to be, like, not about hooping and going out there and actually competing. It started to be about, like, gaming, the rules and foul baiting and foul flopping and the decision and all of that stuff. And we're getting to, like, to me, a tipping point, like a critical mass with this to where it's starting to become. People are starting to get annoyed. Of course, now Bam himself, he don't have to care about that. He goes down in the record books, and that's good. But people are starting to get annoyed by the fact just fucking play basketball.

[B]

It's a legitimate thing. I agree with you. I just think that this should not be a part of that. But I understand why people are looped because it's a bigger conversation that people. Fans of the NBA have been having. And when you see something like this, you just loop it into the rest of your frustration. But I think we should separate it. Congratulations to Bam.

[A]

Congratulations to Bam. Congratulations to everyone that's out there. Congratulations to the Wizards. I'll never in any way, shape or form wish good on the Wizards ever again. The Wizards Mickey Mouse club team. And I was excited to see what they would look like. But the last thing I'll say is, Kobe, Kobe. Kobe. Okay. Oh. Oh, Donnie. Let's go to war in Iran. The FBI have warned police departments in

[C]

California in recent days said Iran could

[A]

retaliate for attacks by launching drones at the West Coast. I've seen also that multiple US And California law enforcement officials told CBS News that there is no known specific threat

[C]

underpinning that memo, which was issued a

[A]

week ago, and it was distributed to law enforcement, I believe, before our attacks on Iran. There's conflicting reports back and forth about this, but what are you guys reaction

[C]

to this news of potential retaliation on the West Coast?

[A]

I think it's bullshit.

[B]

Okay, do you. You think the report is bullshit or do you think that. I don't know. Why do you say it's bullshit? Like, you saw this and you just, like, went about your day?

[A]

Oh, I read it.

[B]

Do you think that it was. When you say bullshit? I guess I'M wondering, do you think that it was intentionally leaked? Like, do you think that it's just a bullshit report and there's no merit behind it? Or maybe it was potentially leaked to scare people, make, I don't know, California. Look, I guess I didn't see this, and I wasn't like, oh, this is bullshit. I kind of was like, are they downplaying it on purpose? I don't know what to believe in here.

[A]

Who's he downplaying it on purpose?

[B]

Like the state of California. They're like, there's no imminent threat. We aren't really aware of this. This report doesn't really have any merit. And I'm.

[A]

The Trump administration would love for a drone to attack California.

[B]

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm alluding to, of, I guess, them downplaying it like it's nothing and actually, it really is something, because they would love for that to happen.

[A]

No.

[B]

Well, I just don't trust anybody. I guess that was my initial thought when I saw the report. I was like, you don't trust. Wait, that there's not an imminent threat?

[A]

You don't trust that there's not an imminent threat? Yeah. The FBI is saying that there is an imminent threat.

[B]

California's saying there's not.

[A]

Right. So I guess the question is, who do you trust, the feds or the state government?

[B]

I guess I'm saying I don't know. I didn't take this and think, bullshit. I thought. My initial thought was, I don't know who to trust.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

And I thought that was scary. I thought when I saw this report, I wasn't flipping about it. I just was kind of like, should I be concerned? And I don't know if I should be concerned because I don't know if I believe the FBI. I don't know if I believe our government. I don't know if they're using this as a political thing to make California look bad. I don't know if they want something to happen. That was my thought. I don't think like that normally.

[A]

Huh. Well, so as much I did as much reading as I could on it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Just so that we could be thorough when we talked about it here. And what it seems like to me is that this almost is a tantamount to war propaganda. Like, the war in Iran is incredibly unpopular.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And part of making the war popular is making Americans believe that Iran posed an imminent threat to the United States, which they are struggling to do now. If there was, like, some sort of hard evidence, I wasn't able to find much about the actually attack capabilities of Iranian drones. But if there was some sort of hard evidence or if there was a plot that had been foiled or all of that stuff, that is one thing. Right. But for this to come out now, the timing of this being in the middle of a really unpopular war, that a lot of people are starting to ask. Well, the prices are going up at the pump. American service members are dead. It seems as if this could drag on for a long time. Iran has chosen a new ayatollah. This Ayatollah is an ayatollah that now has seen his entire family slaughtered.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So with all of that, the resilience of the IRGC and just the top of the Iranian government just writ large could be never ending. They might seek to have a prolonged war of attrition that just lets the entire world know that they can't be bullied to have all of that stuff. It seems to me that this, some of this is an attempt to take that war from the Middle east and move it onto American soil so that people feel the appropriate fear that necessitates the government doing what they're doing right now.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that's why I said, is it political? Was one of my questions as to why, which I guess plays into you talking about the propaganda of it all. I just don't know. And I think. And I guess the thought that I had was five years ago, if I had seen this, I think I would have been scared and I would have believed it. Now I don't know what to believe. And I think that that is even a bigger problem. I don't see anybody really taking this seriously. In California, Everybody's. It's almost like an earthquake alert or something. Oh, we're being. We're possibly being threatened. Oh, there's no imminent threat. Oh, the FBI is saying that there is. It's like, should we be like that? Isn't that a bigger problem? I don't know. I just. What do you mean so casual about the fact that this could be a thing? I know you're saying you don't think it is. One person saying it's an imminent. One side saying it's an imminent threat, one side saying it not. I guess that's. I'm just speaking to the emotion that I had and the reaction that I'm seeing from people who there could be. It's reported that there is a possible threat, a retaliation of war in the state we live in. And people are like, okay, I just did Y' all not have a reaction? Does it not bother you that we're all like, all right, maybe, maybe not. Well, will we be like that five years ago? I mean, I get it. I'm just. I guess I'm just pointing to the times have changed. We just live in a society. I'm not gonna call it desensitized, whether it's conspiracy theories, desensitized, a distrust of a government. It's just odd that this is something and we're like, the Oscars are this weekend. I just don't. Am I crazy? I don't know. I just. I was watching. I mean, I was literally deep diving people's reactions on social media. I'm watching the news coverage of it, and everyone'. Well, like, it's a tornado warning.

[A]

Well, actually, a tornado warning would actually move me more than this would.

[B]

See what I'm saying because.

[A]

Or tornado warning because I trust the meteorological meteorologists. Meteorologists. I trust them more than I trust the doj.

[B]

But this is. That's what I'm saying. It's just. And I get why there's this distress. Right. I have it, too. I'm just pointing out to how problematic it is.

[A]

Okay. I guess I don't see it as problematic. I understand what you guys are saying. I do. I see it as problematic that we can't trust the doj, but I don't see it as problematic that every time the DOJ tells me about an imminent threat that I don't move, remember? Because everything with them is an existential threat. Remember, we were getting invaded from our southern border and undocumented people coming from the southern border. That was an existential threat to our way of life. That was going to change everything. They were trying to take over. They were killing everyone, all of the animals. There was legitimately, legitimately a beef shortage, and they said it was because undocumented immigrants were bringing illegal cows over the border. That happened. Okay? Almost everything that gets said is to affect some sort of geopolitical or domestic policy goal. None of it seems to be based in anything that's actionable. It's all at the whims of whatever it is that they want to affect. Is the idea that there could be a drone attack in Los Angeles or San Francisco scary? Sure. Definitely scary. I'm not saying that you guys shouldn't be scared or concerned. All of it's scary. But I'm telling you right now, this is the reality. This war breaking out right now in the Middle east legitimately, legitimately, any moment. Any moment. Could go bad, and I have surrendered to that. Like, this could be your last summer fact.

[B]

Oh, that's. I guess that would explain your reaction as well. Yeah. I mean, but it's still.

[A]

But this to me. And another thing that I kind of understand or I contend with when I'm looking at stuff like this is I read this and then I go. Every time it involves this administration, I go, let me see the evidence for this. Let me see if there's actually something to be afraid of. And I encourage everyone to look at things that way. When someone tells you to be scared, especially right now, just go dig a little deeper and see if there's something to be afraid of. If there had been something here that I felt like was imminent or whatever, then, you know, and the reality is, if this is true, there's nothing you can do about it anyway. There isn't. There's nothing you can do anyway.

[B]

I mean, I've seen people say, maybe avoid certain things. Maybe don't attend this. Maybe there's extra security at a heightened event where everyone's gonna be gathered, it's gonna be televised. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, it's a drone attack.

[B]

I know, but drones are target. They target certain things with drones.

[A]

Yeah, they target.

[B]

It's not like it's gonna take the whole city. It's like they target certain places, usually popular places. So I've seen people talk about, don't,

[A]

man, they might hit the federal building.

[B]

They might hit drone. That makes sense.

[A]

They might hit. It's all kinds of different stuff that they might hit. They. They might.

[B]

You get what I'm saying?

[A]

I do, but not really, because I think the more important thing.

[B]

Well, you think it's the end. This is the last summer, so, of course that's your reaction.

[A]

No, my thing is, is at this point, I just think it's. I understand what you guys are saying. I'm really not trying to be argumentative, but I think it's more. It's. It's important to be intellectually vigilant here.

[B]

Oh, I, I.

[A]

And so, like, what I'm saying is this was meant to inspire fear. So then, so then I go, and I go, okay, is there something real to this? Is there. Is there some substance to this? That actually. Where are they getting this from? Like, who? And then I go to people who. Not that I trust implicitly or anything like that, but like, people who would be directly in charge of the safety of California. And I try to get what they are saying. I've read so much stuff from people that are saying, look, there's really no reason to put this out other than manipulate people's fear.

[B]

I did not read a headline and have the reaction. We're approaching it from two different ways. I get you. I totally looked into this. I think I'm approaching it from the reaction of people and just kind of where we are as a society. It is not. I understand what you're talking. Talking about about the threat to our way of life that came from the administration, the Trump administration, when it came to immigration. But that to me is totally different from. We don't. We're not always talking about a terrorist attack from drones. That a country we are actively striking at the moment. And I'm just coming from an approach of. I was really paying attention to how the lack of reaction from people. That's the approach I'm making. I'm not discrediting what you're saying. I'm not saying I didn't look into it. It just. It's just an observation that I have.

[A]

By the way, I don't know if this is possible and yeah, I don't know if it's possible for the Iranians to fly an unmanned drone all the way. That's what I wanted to know. What I wanted to know. So when there's. Last thing I'll say. When there was. When the Israelis used drones to decapitate the Iranian military intelligentsia last summer, there was a way that they went about this. They smuggled drone parts into the country. Those drone parts were then built there. They then were able to take out SAM sites and establish. They had Mossad inside of Iran already giving them really valuable information on essential targets. There was a whole. They had been planning it and planning it and planning it and planning it, right? Russians, the Russian drone. Some of the Russian drone attacks, man, there was a Russian drone attack where they made like a fake Craigslist ad to have people in Ukraine or Russia or whatever put together a drone, right, to bust. To like to. They say, hey, we need somebody to put this stuff together or to deliver this stuff to this specific place. And then these people went and guys, workers, whatever, went and grabbed this stuff and then drove it to this specific place. They drove it to the place, the shit got fucking airborne and they went and started attacking. Like, if there was something there that showed the structure or method by which this was going to happen, then I'd have been like, oh, my God. That their sleeper cells all over, like Los Angeles that are going to do this. There's all types of if. If there Was something more to it. There would have been something more to it. But if you tell me that they about to fly a fleet of drones like across the Pacific Ocean and then attack Los Angeles, I don't know how feasible that is. And so particularly with this administration knowing that they're trying to manipulate me, I just was like, all right, this seems like some bullshit to me, but it's fucking scary times.

[B]

I guess I also thought of it as, does it have to come directly from there or could it be somebody here?

[A]

Well, I mean, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like they were saying that like, maybe this would come from an attack on the southern border. Maybe they would smuggle the drone parts in from the smother from the southern border and like build the drone parts and then fly the drone and do all of that stuff. I'm not. I don't want to say this and then have something terrible happen and make everybody go. I'm sure it could happen. I would just need a little bit more for me to actually be scared and, you know, keep that thing tooly tool on me. You know what I'm saying? Go to war with that big stock, because that's what I got. That's another thing like I'm adding to the arsenal. Bing, pow, boom, bow, bing. You know, so if shit get bad because I'm preparing. I got a storage.

[B]

You're a prepper.

[A]

Oh, I got a storage closet. And every now and again, like a storage thing. Every now and again, I go put some water in it. I go put some other things. I'm serious.

[B]

I'll come look at it.

[A]

I got seeds. Great.

[B]

I learned how to.

[A]

I got seeds I like.

[B]

Do you know how to use them?

[A]

Well, I got this little thing that. Where you learn how to plant. I could plant in the house.

[B]

You should practice first.

[A]

That's what I'm doing. I just said that.

[B]

Oh, I didn't know you were actively doing.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I got this little thing. I got a little thing that's in the corner you can plant in the. Like sees all of that. So I'm not saying I'll ever need to use it, but what I'm saying is there's something that preparation. If a dirty bomb comes in, we all incinerate it. I guess, you know, that's what happens. A dirty bomb or some kind of suitcase size uranium situation with all this stuff that's coming out, there's certain stuff you just can't do anything about.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You're scared. You're concerned.

[B]

My Antennas are up.

[A]

There you go. I like that. That's how you're supposed to be, Rach. That's how you're supposed to be.

[B]

I love that you're a doomsday prepper. I gotta come see the closet.

[A]

Yeah, just put some water.

[B]

I know what I'm doing after the podcast.

[A]

Just water. Just put some water in there. A lot of water. Different things. Add a little bit more to the arsenal. Little blicked out. Who knows? By the way, this wasn't my idea, the prepping. Somebody else brought this up, and then we started it. This wasn't my idea.

[B]

I'm not mad at it.

[A]

Donnie, go to Harvey Weinstein. Rachel used to hang out with him back in the day. Yeah. Harvey sat down for his first interview

[C]

from behind bars with the Hollywood Reporter.

[A]

He was talking about his life at

[C]

Rikers and how he hates it.

[A]

Depressed. But I mean, that's good, right? What, that he's depressed in Rikers? I guess my point is. Yeah, that he's not having a good time. What was the. What was the point of this?

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. That's why I roll my eyes as soon as it's like, what did you think he was going to say? What did you think? How did you think he was gonna be? I just saying that you got the interview with Harvey Weinstein. Like, why are we giving this man attention? Why are we giving him a platform? Why do we need to hear from him, like, all these questions? I don't understand this. I mean, like, I get it. You want a story, but to me, I'm not impressed. The fact that you were able to go down to Rikers to interview this despicably horrible person. I'm not. I don't care what he's doing in jail. I don't care that he doesn't get any daytime. I don't care that he's harassed by people within the prison.

[C]

Good.

[B]

You should be under the jail. I hope you are experiencing the worst possible things that could happen to you. And for. To give him a platform to then even not to just complain about what he's going through, and then to not be remorseful and to accuse certain women of exaggerating what happened to him, to them at the hands of him, shows how evil this person is. Like, from. If I was doing this interview and I heard him say that he said that to me, I'd be like, we're never gonna hear this. This is traumatizing for people who are victims of Harvey Weinstein.

[A]

So you think that the Hollywood. I actually wasn't saying it. You think that the Hollywood Reporter is wrong?

[B]

I absolutely think they're wrong for doing this.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Why do we need to hear from him? I'm dead. If I'm one of these women that he outright named. That is making me experience my trauma again. His face makes me think of the things that he did. He's in jail. He's been convicted. He's done. We don't need anything else from him. Not a thing. His name is triggering his. It's. I just don't. I need somebody to tell me why this was necessary. Like, what did I gain from this interview? Well, other than trauma.

[A]

So when I was asking what the point of it was, I actually meant from Harvey Weinstein's perspective. But I think the point that you raised is actually more interesting, which is often the case on this podcast. I think the point that you raised is more interesting about whether or not we need to hear from people like this.

[B]

And I guess, like, what are you curious about? Not you particularly, like an overall you.

[A]

I was intensely curious when I saw this.

[B]

What did you. But for why? For why?

[A]

Huh? Well, I suppose that I was curious, number one, to see if there was any contrition on his part, to see if someone who was so consequential and such a big part of cultural history had anything to offer on it.

[B]

That's fair.

[A]

If there had been any sort of evolution on his part. The part that got me to read the article was an excerpt from the article where it was like, he talked about how things were on the yard at Rikers for him, and he goes, you know, when I'm out in the yard at Rikers, people come up to me. They ask me for money. Hey, Weinstein, you got any money? Hey, Weinstein, can I use your lawyer? All of that stuff to see what it was like for Harvey Weinstein in jail. I was curious about that. I think it's an interesting tension that we're dealing with in society overall for the last, I guess, decade, about whether or not people like this should have their say at all. This used to be just par for the course. There was always, hey, we're going into the jail to interview Charles Manson, or we're talking to this person that did this terrible thing. We're talking to this person that did this terrible thing. We're going to some foreign country to talk to this leader that's internationally recognized as a terrorist or this brutal dictator or whatever it is, whatever it was. We're lining up to talk to Casey Anthony.

[B]

Yeah, sure. Serial killers all of that.

[A]

All of that stuff. So this used to be something that we didn't really go back and forth on as much as we do now. But it's interesting. It's interesting is whether or not this

[B]

serves anything, I guess. And maybe for me, it's a case by case thing because. And maybe, like, I can see the argument of, like, maybe talking to somebody and maybe understanding the mindset, like when it gets down to, like a serial killer or something like that. FBI kind of does that so they can profile serial killers. Like, I guess I can see something like that. But for maybe. Harvey Weinstein is just so different for me. And he's never shown any remorse, so I didn't expect that he would change his mind once he's in jail. I think that he is who he is. He's obviously a narcissist. So with that comes super entitlement. I mean, he's basically begging to be out of here so he can go to another prison. Cause his life is so hard. Still not understanding the gravity, impact, like nasty, evil things that he did. Like, I'm convinced that if this man got out, he would just go back to doing the exact. Try to. Try to at least go back to doing the same thing. There just seems to be no understanding or even trying to. Of what he did. So I. Maybe he's just different for me because I can make an argument like I just did for other people being interviewed, but with Harvey Weinstein.

[A]

So no.

[B]

Say, I would say the same thing about Bill Cosby.

[A]

Well, Bill, Bill, Bill out. I would, you know, if Bill wanted to come on Higher and Learning, I would put him on. Well, I would ask if we could put him on, and then I would be told no by Bernard.

[B]

And I understand why you would want to be curious to put him on.

[A]

Chelsea, Donnie. I guess he would probably say no. I'm sure there would be a no from Juliet. Bill would probably be like, I don't know about that one. So they were like, I'll probably be in a class by myself there.

[B]

What about the widespread impact of. What would an interview like that do? And that's how I think about Harvey.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, you know that I'm not on that. I mean.

[B]

Oh, I know, I know, I know, I know. I'm just telling you what my thought process was. I mean, we clearly thought of it in a different way. Because I understand the curiosity of it. I do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But when it comes to him, if I'm weighing it out, it's just not worth it.

[A]

So let Me tell you why I thought this was fascinating to me and why I said why I asked, like, what's the point? So at the beginning of this Hollywood Reporter interview with Harvey Weinstein here at the beginning of it, the mayor Roshan, I guess is the Roshan. Mayor Roshan is the, the. The journalist who does his interview. No, Harvey. Harvey. I was about to say Harvey Levin. No, Harvey Weinstein for a very long time. So Harvey Weinstein talks to him about the fact that, you know, we meet again. He had interviewed him in 1999. It's a very different time in Harvey Weinstein's life. And so they sit down. Harvey Weinstein has some trust with this guy, okay? And he, Weinstein desperately wants this to go out before he is set to be back court on April 14, which told me that Weinstein felt like he was going to say something here that was going to help him. He felt like he was going to say something that was going to change public opinion about him because he had someone that knew him interviewing him or had known him in the past. And, you know, it's a high leverage moment for him. You know, he's in Rikers and all of that stuff and everything he did in the interview made it worse. Every single thing he did in the interview made it worse. What he did was paint a picture of a guy who is capable of the things that he's been accused of and convicted of. He painted a picture of a guy who just completely does not understand the moment in any way, shape or form. And you don't think that your opinion of Harvey Weinstein could get worse. But then it does another thing for me as I read this, it almost would be something that I think would be almost kind of required reading for certain men that are in powerful positions. Because when you look at Harvey Weinstein, the one thing that he does do in this piece is I can understand how this would be triggering for the victims is paint a picture of just how his mindset led to him just destroying everything that he had worked for and everything. Just like how his mindset of dehumanizing people, making them small, how he treated almost everything. He doesn't say this, but it's obvious when you read it that everything to Harvey Weinstein was food. Everything was. Everything was food. Everything was to be consumed. Like people's emotions were to be consumed. Their humanity was to be consumed, their dignity was to be consumed. And all of it was to feed him. You just see this, you see him attempt to make his. Just the grandiosity of his Abuse about his personal failing in his marriage. And you go, this guy just doesn't get it. And then when I'm reading this, I go, what am I not getting? Like, what do I do to stop myself in 10, 15, 20 years from sitting down for an interview like this? Like, what. How to be this blissfully unaware of like, the people that you've hurt and what you've done? Like, how do I not be this. Right. But that's a personal thing, right? You know, like. Cause you sitting down after you done made Shakespeare in Love, after you done made Good Will Hunting, all of these different movies, and he's talking about all of this stuff that he did and it's like, who gives a fuck about that if you raping people. Yeah, if that's the price that we gotta pay for Shakespeare in Love, nobody gonna wanna pay that price. And you trying to make people remember all of the great things that you did. It doesn't matter. You. You shit on that. You piss that away like that. That's gone that to me, it was fascinating and it was scary. That's.

[B]

So I'm not gonna say you changed my mind, but I will say that it made me think. You're so first off, I would hope that everyone who read or watched or however they consumed this would be that introspective about what the substance of that interview was. I would hope that that was the case. But as I was listening to you talk and the way that you were thinking about it, it made me think. I don't want to mention his name and I want him to go away because I think it's triggering. But if his name and what he did completely disappears, could years down the road, a copycat or something like this happen again? So I think it is important to remind people to your point of the darkness of a Harvey Weinstein and remember that something like that has existed and the trauma and the terrible things of what it was, but at the same time not give him a platform to further trigger people who have been victims of sexual assault or victims specifically from him. I don't know what the balance is. But you're right. You still need to remember a person like that. Yeah, yeah, so I get it. So.

[A]

But you know, when you get to the. You get to the bottom of it and he's talking about. He's talking about the women and. Yeah, now I understand. Like, it's like he. I also didn't know that it was jail consultants.

[B]

I wasn't.

[A]

I never knew that.

[B]

I'm not. In what way Consult how?

[C]

He.

[A]

He hired a jail consultant before he was going to jail.

[B]

Boy, on like, how to navigate it. Figured out, yeah, like, well, it's not working for him.

[A]

Well, maybe not, but he hired a jail consultant and I.

[B]

Somebody took his money. That sounds like a scam.

[A]

Well, he said that. This is what he says about the jail.

[C]

It's the movie.

[B]

It's the movies get hard. It's dead hard.

[A]

He did get hard. He got a jail consultant.

[B]

That's funny. Somebody scammed him.

[A]

I didn't know it was jail consultants. He said that the jail consultant helped him immensely in this entire situation. Man, I just gotta say this to my homies back in Baton Rouge. Y' all know who y' all are. It's a lane that we missing. I might set up a firm. Cause I know enough of them.

[B]

You can't help.

[A]

We not gonna help him.

[B]

Okay. Or the like.

[A]

But let's say that you. I mean, there's really no good. Let's say that you, like, I don't know, you did some white collar shit and, you know, you fucked over a lot of people. Nah, see, but even that, though, that's bad. But that's not from. I don't wanna be in the firm. But for my guys out there, I would rather them become jail consultants. Then what they do when they get

[B]

out, it's another hustle.

[A]

What they do when they get out, it's like, I was on the phone with somebody a couple of months ago, and he was like, hey, man, the moves is calling me. I'm like, don't do it, dog. I'll send you something. He was like, well, if you don't send me nothing, because if you send me something, I'm just gonna flip it. I was like, don't do it, bro. He was like, you know, hey, you ever knew somebody that's like, addicted to, like, being in the game? Like Jay Z said?

[B]

Yeah, it's like a fat fast money.

[A]

It's not even the money. It's the. This. This guy that I know is not about the money because he ain't no kingpin.

[B]

This is a part of the person that I know.

[A]

This is a part of his self esteem. His self esteem is being. Because all of that.

[B]

Able to get over on people.

[A]

Well, yeah, because like, all of that ran off on the plug stuff. That's not the way the guys that I knew, they were into that. That's not the way they look at it. They weren't trying to run off on the plug. They were trying to be the Ones that if you gave them something, they would give you back triple. That made them feel fulfilled. Like, that they could move shit like that. That they could. There was a whole check cashing situation that played out in, like, the mid to late 2000s. And the people that I knew, I was never involved in any of this. They were so motivated. I mean, when I'm telling you they were motivated. They were so motivated. Every time the cops got one up on them and kind of figured out they moves, they were so happy to try to figure out a new way to figure out a new jug to get around it. And it wasn't just that they was trying to beat the cops to get the money. They liked the game. They liked the game of it. And sometimes, like, you know, you gotta give them something else. I feel like maybe this is it, the prison consultant thing. You could sit down and think about that. Cause, you know, I asked one of my homies, it was like, are you one of the niggas that says, I'm never going back to jail? He's like, nah, I go back. Wow.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

He was like, that shit from the movies, nigga. He was like, I'll go back. It's like, you know, I feel like

[B]

somebody who says that knows that it would just be an in and out thing. Like, when you say, I'll go back, you're not talking about eight years.

[A]

Nah, he might have an in and out thing. All right, that's what I asked him.

[B]

Okay, let's. Donnie.

[A]

I was like, do you miss somebody in there? This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. You know, with just one trip to Whole Foods, you can travel the world. First stop, discover the taste of the Mediterranean. With big sales on brands like Deco, Oreos, and San Pellegrino. With Whole Foods prepared foods, dinner is solved. You can roam the world with empanadas, burritos, soups, and more. Maybe expand your snack repertoire to South America with colorful and crunchy Peruvian potato chips. Then straight to Mexico for dessert. You can pick up a tres leches family pack cake for only $10 every Friday. All aboard. Save on regional flavors at Whole Foods Market.

[B]

It's hottie.

[A]

That's okay too. You know what I'm saying? I gotta use the bathroom real quick. In a recent interview with effective immediately, Ari Lennox sat down and talked about regrets she's had for the attention that she's given to different types of men. Let's hear from Ari.

[C]

I think I have a thing for

[B]

toxic energy, so I think there's still

[C]

some more Healing that I need to do.

[B]

Because when I look back on all of these energies, it's a shame. I gave them so much time and

[C]

there were sweet energies that I didn't. And so now I see those sweet

[B]

energies getting married and starting.

[C]

I'm just like, dang, that probably could

[B]

have been me if I recognized the

[C]

security in those individuals at the time. And like, now I'm like, yeah, I'm definitely feeling that now. I'm aware that there's something going on, there's something wrong.

[A]

What do you think it is that

[C]

attracts you to toxic energy? I think they just seem really exciting at first.

[B]

The chemistry is incredible.

[C]

And they don't even always be fine. It's not even that.

[B]

Like, they're sexy or something. I mean, well, they're sexy, but they

[C]

don't be the finest things I've ever seen.

[B]

It's just an energy.

[C]

Sometimes it's convenience.

[B]

What we talk about a lot of those.

[C]

The sweeter energies that I felt like weren't for me.

[B]

I felt I could see myself falling

[C]

asleep a little bit on the phone.

[B]

So I don't know if that's like. If boring is good or not.

[C]

Like, I'm trying to figure out what that means.

[B]

Like, it's the thrill.

[C]

Yeah, it's the thrill of it. Yeah.

[B]

How does this make you feel? Do you feel like you were a nice guy or a toxic guy?

[A]

I think I'm noxic.

[B]

Okay. Have you always been like this? Because I'm not really looking at you now. I'm talking, like. Because she's talking about, like, back in the day. So let's talk about your 20s. Yeah, 30s. 20s. We'll do 20s, right? Were you toxic? Nah, you were the nice guy.

[A]

Well, I don't know. I'm just Van.

[B]

Well, you said noxic.

[A]

Noxic means that, like, I really aspire to be a decent person, but I do toxic shit and so like it.

[B]

I think everybody does.

[A]

So it. I aspire to be decent, but I do toxic shit. I do toxic shit. I think a lot of this has to do with just, like, regular personhood.

[B]

When you were. I guess I'm asking when you were in your 20s and girls, did girls deem you the nice guy, or did they deem you, like, one of the toxic.

[A]

I would have been.

[B]

You're also funny, and that's tough. Cause you could be nice and funny, and then that makes you more interesting.

[A]

Well, I would have been deemed the nice guy. I would have been deemed the nice guy. But at the same time, if you thought that nice meant that I was safe and wasn't gonna do anything to hurt you or harm you, then you were probably wrong.

[B]

I think that's wrong to think, period. Yeah, I think that's wrong to go into any situation thinking, oh, I did that okay, myself. I did it in college. The guy I dated in college, I was like, he's the nice guy. I thought if anything were ever to happen, it would be because of me, right? I would be the one doing something. I thought there was nothing he could do. That would be because he was the good guy. I felt like he liked me more than I liked him. And that was not the case.

[A]

He was like, fuck that shit.

[B]

Well, because I. And I. I'm glad I learned that lesson very quickly. Because just because somebody is quote, unquote, good or nice does not mean that they can't do something wrong or to hurt you. They're not perfect. They're not free of toxicity. And I think everybody. And so, like, I hear. I get the ifs and the what ifs and what could have been, but at the end of the day, you don't know that. He could have been like, ooh, I got this girl. And start feeling a certain way. Because that's exactly what happened to me. That's what happened to me. I think he started feeling himself.

[A]

You know what I think we don't discuss with this. I wanna talk about the Beat it meme in a second, too. Have y' all seen the Beat it meme?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I wanna talk about the Beat it meme in a second. But you know what I think we don't discuss in this. So I want y' all to think about movies real quick. Y' all think about movies. Think about movies where I give you an example, like the Terminator. You guys seen the Terminator? You seen Terminator? Terminator 2. Nigga, how you never seen the Terminator before?

[B]

I don't want to. I. You have to remember, I couldn't watch these movies when they came out. So by the time I'm 17, there's so many movies I don't want to go back and watch.

[A]

Did y' all have a working television?

[B]

Because, like, my parents had a code.

[A]

See, that's the fuck.

[B]

You know how embarrassing it was? Do you know how embarrassing it was when friends would come over and they would be flipping through the channel and it would get to, like, mtv and there'd be a code, and I'd be

[A]

like, yeah, a code on mtv? That's crazy. That's actually you know what?

[B]

Like, I. So this is this. I need you to understand. So I had a lot of catching up to do by the time I was 17.

[A]

I'm going to say this to you, and I appreciate your parents. I appreciate your parents for being that. I make a lot of jokes, but shout out to the judge. Shout out to pretty hair. Like, I grew up in a different sort of household. This is not in any way my household was, like, always. I was always being challenged the way my mom, like, raised me emotionally to be an energetically lively, good and curious person. But if.

[B]

Well, I was too, but not with entertainment like that.

[A]

I know, but what I'm saying is they weren't gonna tell me not to watch something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They were just gonna be like, okay, now when you watch it, come back. If you got questions, ask me about it. Cause at some point, they had to know I was up watching Emmanuel in the desert.

[B]

Not with the. Not with.

[A]

She's the queen of the desert.

[B]

Not with the code. My challenge was theater.

[A]

Naked woman dance books. That's what Emmanuel in the desert was.

[B]

It was not.

[A]

No, she was naked.

[B]

Y' all didn't have codes on TVs?

[A]

Hell no. It wasn't no code, nigga. The code. The code for me was wait till they go asleep. You know what I'm saying? Like, anyway, so in the Terminator, go back to making the point. In the Terminator, John Connor is a wayward youth. Okay, now I want you guys to think about this. He is John Connor. The person who is going to lead America or the world against the machines is a wayward youth. And what they show when John Connor is a kid is deviance. They show him hacking shit. They show him not listening to his parents. And oftentimes in movies like this, in popular culture, when they show people that are going to grow up to be leaders, they show deviance. They show people not going along with the rules. With the rules. They show people not going along. They challenging authority. Ferris Bueller. All of these, like, young people that we are supposed to look at and, like, be. They are cool. These are people who challenge authority. The reason why is because not just with women, but by society, we are enamored with people like that. We make this into a specifically lady situation in order to further, like, synthetically manipulate what we think women should be into. But we don't even really think about what we're into. The type of people that we're into are the type of people like that we. These type A personalities are people who don't Follow the rules, the people who. Everybody's going, right? And this person goes, I think the path is actually left. And women aren't immune to that. Women aren't immune to guys who go, ah, fuck all that. I'm gonna do what the fuck I wanna do. And when they say. A lot of times when I hear that, like, I'm like, I was attracted not to the nice guy. Well, you were attracted to the guy that everybody else felt like they had to be in school. And this guy goes, I don't want to do that. Everybody felt like they had to have a job and this guy was doing this. The sort of deviance and the. I do my own thing. I have my own way of doing it. Not just women are attracted to that. Everyone is attracted to that.

[B]

Yeah. I think society programmed us to be like, that's desirable. That's cool. But on the flip end, how many times did men. I don't know if you used to say this, but men in my 20s, back in the day, used to be like, you're the marrying kind. Is that not the equivalent of the same thing? The good guy, it's be like, I'm gonna have. But, like, you're the type of girl I would marry. I want to go over here and do this, like, the exciting, the thrilling. But you're like more of the settle down type girl. That's the same thing.

[A]

All cultural. All cultural. All cultural. Those men have an idea of the woman that they're supposed to marry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so the woman that they don't think they can take home to their mothers because of judgment, expectation, societal structure and engineering, they are picking out of a different set of women because they have been told that the chick that. Cause I know. And we all know in this situation, when your boy falls in love with the girl that the entire crew tells him he should not be falling in love with, Bernard is laughing. Everybody knows how that goes. When he falls in love with the girl that everybody says, hey, bro, just to let you know, but he likes her. Why does he like her? He likes her cause she's free. He likes her because she's interesting. He likes the fact that some guys like the fact that you're in the house and the girl might come out of her towel, open it like. Like it's. They like that. Like, they feel, but they can't like it because they're told they can't like it. Some. I don't want to get into this whole thing, but there's a reason why you're starting to See, a trend of men really gravitate towards a certain type of woman who herself bucks society bucks trends and is looked at as a deviant. There's something, I don't think that's.

[B]

That's not new.

[A]

I know it's not new. It's not new at all. It's never been new. What's new is the acceptance of it. Because, like, what you just said is like, you know, like the marrying kind and all of that. Well, our idea of marriage has changed so much that the idea of what makes a marriage is changing also. So I say to all of this stuff, everybody evolves. Those guys that were assholes then could be nice guys now. And I'm letting y' all know one thing for sure. Those guys that were nice guys then, they certainly can become assholes. And really they have. So all I'm saying is, in this situation for everyone, stop getting so mad over shit like this.

[B]

Were people mad?

[A]

Well, it's like, okay, let's talk about the beat it meme. Put the meme up. Have you. You've seen this with the guy? Okay, I get, I understand why some brothers is like, yo, I'm a nice guy. I can't find a lady like, you know, why is this? All the dudes is the thugs and making money, whatever, they ball players, they got tattoos and shit. I want everybody to exist in vibrational abundance. Meaning, please, please, please concern yourself with what wants you. Like, I am begging people to be concerned with who does want you and not who doesn't. Because there are so many choices now. It is not like it was in 1985 and 1995 where two people were going to go, ah, fuck it, I'll just get married to you. Like, there are so many choices now. The apps have globalized amorous fucking escapades. There's so much on there. People are seeing so much. Please, please, please concern yourself with who thinks you're fucking sexy. And don't worry about who doesn't. You going to drive yourself crazy. That's for men and women. You going to drive yourself crazy. You're going to drive yourself crazy worrying about who doesn't want a nice guy who wants. Let the women who want the nice guys because they're out there, you should ask yourself if you want them as much as you think you do. We don't have that conversation either. Find them.

[B]

I think this is also just like a silly conversation to have because what is nice and to your point about, you know, concern yourself with the people who want you, It's Also, like, people gotta be realistic about who they are in their situation. That goes for men and for women. Like, you gotta be realistic in what you bring to the table and who you are. Just because you're nice doesn't give you a ticket of. You should have all these things. What? You could be nice and boring. You can be nice and funny. You can be nice and creative. And like. Like, the nice guy doesn't mean. I just. It's just such a silly argument to me to have, like, even hearing Ari talk about this. This is her personal situation. And it's like, okay, like, I get it. You. You go back and you think, what if. But to your point, the nice guys could be bad. The bad guys could be nice. Nice can be boring. Nice can be fun. Nice doesn't mean, like, you always. I guess it's just like the nice guys, the whole, like, the beat it meme, right? All the nice guys, we never win. Well, maybe cause you're boring or maybe because there's something else you don't have. Like, it's just not because you're nice that you're not getting chosen. Like, we have to let that go.

[A]

Well, I will say this about that. Now. That depends on what you think is. You talked about this.

[B]

I mean, it's subjective.

[A]

That depends on. So there are a lot of women and it depends on, like, how mature you are.

[C]

Right?

[A]

There are a lot of women that see a guy that's like, hold on, before I say this, this is like a. This is an unpopular thing to say. If you want a mate, it is your responsibility to be desirable.

[B]

I don't think that that's an unpopular thing. That would be.

[A]

Especially in the fucking era that we're. All right. If you want a mate, it's your responsibility to do things that are attractive to them.

[B]

Well, it will attract them. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. So it's your responsibility to be desirable. You don't have to be desirable to everyone.

[B]

Right?

[A]

But if you. The dude in the beat it meme right there, you know, I would hope that somebody looks at that guy and goes, hey, he might be a CEO in 10 years, but if not, just, you know, take some consideration and care into who you are and, like, what you do, invest into yourself a little bit. Like, go out there, show some initiative, you know, get a manicure, keep your hair cut, do all of those things. Like, go to be somebody that people want to have sex with. And so, like, to me, looking at all of this stuff, you looking at the beat at me? Show me the show Me something that's funny.

[B]

Why do they always pick thugs?

[A]

Why do they always pick thugs? It's like, hey. And then she comes back, look, she pregnant. Like, beat it chick. I guess. Who the. I guess the thing that does it that I don't. I love this meme, by the way. This meme is hilarious. And it comes up every year. We get fed this meme every year. Who does the beat it mean guy go for Now? Now? Who does he go for? Who is the next choice?

[B]

Good question.

[A]

We know who he goes for. We know who he goes, oh, but

[B]

we gotta quit the nice guy. Cause just cause you're nice, they're not women and men goes both ways. They're not not picking you because you're nice. There's something else to it, to your point about the. It's not like, oh, he's nice, I don't want him. There's something else you gotta be. It's more than just nice.

[A]

Now, last thing I'll say before I move off this. Do you understand guys who, after they've gotten to the mountaintop at 34 or 35, whatever, see something like this, what Ahrii is saying, hold on to the hurt. Hold on.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's a human thing to do.

[B]

Yeah. I think it kind of fits with like an ugly Dudley syndrome in a different kind of way. But yeah, that stays with you. And it can create a monster. It can create not a monster, but just insecurity, mistrust. Absolutely. I think all things that we experience as you go through life, they weigh on you. They stay with you. That's why therapy is really important.

[A]

You gotta do some work. You know what? Let's talk about something that I was really concerned about. Well, not concerned, confused. I was really confused with this next one. Like, are we going back to Target or not, Donnie? I mean, according to Dr. Jamal Bryant, it's okay to go back to Target.

[C]

He says that the My man year

[A]

long boycott is officially over. Let's hear from the pastor. It's been a year and I'm grateful. I didn't think we could do it, but we did. History has just been made the most effective and powerful boycott by black people since the Montgomery Bus Boycott 70 years ago. We asked for four things and I'm grateful to God if we've got three of them. They have invested $2 billion back into the black community as they pledged after the death of George Floer. On top of the 2 billion, an additional $100 million to immediate organizations that meeting the needs within our community. Number two, we asked them to partner with HBCUs they have found and we have found collectively one that will do our pilot program program with 12 other HBCUs to follow. Number three, a reimagining of DEI has been a rough year for our community. 300,000 black women have lost their jobs and this is the highest unemployment for our people in years. The only thing that we didn't get accomplished, but we're still working towards is an investment into black banks. And I'm believing by grace

[B]

this new

[A]

CEO has come handling business. And I'm glad to walk with you. The media target fast has come to an end. We claim victory.

[B]

We're grateful.

[C]

Go in or stay out.

[A]

But I'm grateful under God. It's Oakland. All right, first of all, we gotta talk about why you don't like Jamal Bryant.

[C]

I'm not.

[B]

Don't say I don't like him because I don't want to make it personal, but I think he is extremely problematic.

[A]

All right, let's talk about it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We have to.

[B]

Don't make it personal, Rachel.

[A]

Don't make it personal. We can't make it personal.

[B]

I'm not making it personal. He is problematic. I'm sorry. I'm still trying to get up with this video because that's not the video. I watched. I watched the. The press conference.

[A]

I watched it too.

[B]

My biggest problem with Jamal Bryant is that he centers himself in everything

[C]

as

[B]

a pastor, as a leader, particularly as a pastor. Where there is. There is linked to something deeper. I just don't understand how people get this. Just don't see what I'm talking about with this man. Now, I've already talked about. We talked about the whole dress thing and how he addressed the congregation. I did not have a problem with the dress. I had a problem that he centered himself and he took time from his pulpit to have a moment. Because I think that that is more important to Jamal Bryant than most things. And I'm sorry, y' all can come at me with it if you want to. I'm not saying he doesn't do good work, but it's seems to be motivated by a personal platform. Growing his platform and getting exposure. I thought Jamal Bryant started the Target boycott. Did you? I thought he did it with Nina Turner and Tamika Mallory. That is how it has been. You know, it was that the women came together. They brought him on to bring the church and to make it more widespread and national and to have a. I knew it was a 40 day fast. I knew they extended it. I thought everybody was working together. Did you think that?

[A]

Well, I knew that there were multiple factions, but I don't think I knew to the degree that it was as fragmented.

[B]

This is why I say Jamal Bryant centers himself. Jamal Bryant does his press conference. He isn't alone. I saw Nina Turner there. He does this video where he claims the target has met their three out of the four demands and he claims declares it over. How do you declare something over you. You make yourself the face of it. You declare it over, and you didn't start it. This is the problem I have with Jamal Bryant. And the headlines are extremely confusing. And the more you have people asking the very question that you started this off with, are we boycotting it? Are we not? You have Nina Turner and Tamika Mallory saying, no, they have not met the demands. The two of the women who were a part of what Jamal Bryant was doing, they called themselves the mothership. 3 or something like that are saying that that's not true, and they're still boycotting it. While Jamal Bryant standing in front of a Target sign is telling you it's over. You didn't start it. It started in Minneapolis. It started there. So you might say, hey, maybe you should have said, you're removing yourself from it and it's over for you. But now that you've come out and you've held this press conference and now these headlines, it's doing. It's causing harm to what the original people who started it a month before you got involved, a black woman and other people in Minneapolis. You're taking away from the work that they're doing, and they're not saying it's over. And the further you research into it, they have not met the demands. Two of the things that he just named started before this boy. They removed their DEI efforts. They have not apologized publicly. This new CEO has not committed to bringing back the DEI initiatives and programs that existed before. They've merely renamed it with something else and said they'll look into the research of it. They haven't done that. And all they've done is committed to paying out the money that they already promised they would do prior to this boycott even starting. So what is Jamal Bryant talking about other than trying to establish himself as the beginning and the end of this boycott. Boycott. I'm not saying that he did not do bring this to a bigger audience and gather and corral people to boycott Target. I'm not saying that that wasn't good and that he was not beneficial to that. The problem is he's taking credit for something that he didn't start and he's ending it when Target has not answered the call from the boycott.

[A]

Okay? So I talk to people about this and I don't want to try to like distill everything that I got because honestly, I'm still pretty confused. Okay. And everybody had to listen to the whole Terminator rant. So you guys know that being concise is not a skill or. So this started not by Jamal Bryant.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But along the way, Jamal Bryant, from my understanding, started his own part of

[B]

it with the other two women.

[A]

Well, the Target fast that was initially fast during Lent was started by Jamal Bryant and that had a religious framework. It was a fast during Lent from Target. So that part of it that he decided to continue after Lent was Jamal Bryant starting that part of it.

[B]

The 40 day fast.

[A]

The 40 day fast, then it turns into something else. Right? So the part of it that he started it is within his, I guess, power to end.

[B]

So this is where it gets confusing. The boycott existed before. I think the woman's name is Nakima. I apologize if that's not correct. The term boycott specifically for Target, based on the DEI, started a month before he comes in with the two with Nina Turner and Tamika Mallory and does the 40 day fast. They extended the fast past 40 days, it became 400. But he's not saying I'm ending my fast. He's saying the boycott is over.

[A]

Right. He's his target.

[B]

That's where it gets confusing.

[A]

His target fast. And I'm like. And you know, I'm just. So you see, I'm talking to people.

[B]

Okay, so, yeah, they're together.

[A]

Yeah. So his fast is over. What he was doing, particularly his call to action with the people that got into it because of Jamal Bryant or because of how he positioned it, that part of it is over. Is it confusing to have multiple, I guess, tentacles of a movement against a corporation like this exists at the same time? Yeah, it is. It is for me. I'm not.

[B]

It is for everybody.

[A]

I agree. It is for me. It is for me for one person to say, hey, I'm out of it. Because I thought that everybody was together for a common goal. Right? But apparently people joined together and perhaps they had different expectations about what the resolution would be. And that is just. Is what it is. It's like when people compare this to the Montgomery Bus Boycott. You have to remember the agreed upon policy outcome of the Montgomery Bus Boycott. There were other things, but it was to desegregate the bus system. So if that happened, we win. Right? If that happened, we win. In this situation, it is a little murkier. It's murkier because Target simply is not going to reinstitute its DEI initiatives. They're not going to do that. They're not going to do it. If they were to do that, it would put them in direct conflict with the Trump administration. And they have already capitulated. They've already capitulated to the Trump administration. So if anyone thought that they were going to not go to Target and Target was going to reinstitute its DEI initiatives, that's not going to happen.

[B]

So he lied.

[A]

Well, I think. I don't know necessarily whether or not he lied.

[B]

He just said that they did it.

[A]

Well, so this is what I would say. This is an interesting part of this because the critique that I could make of the entire movement was that even though there's a whole website devoted to it. Right. The critique I can make of the entire movement, and that it wasn't plainly articulated to the people who were boycotting exactly what the win was. It wasn't plainly articulated to them.

[B]

You don't think people knew? I thought it was, if anything.

[C]

Right.

[B]

There could be more than one thing, but I thought everybody understood it was based off of the removal of the dei.

[A]

Right. That's why we're boycotting.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But the question was, would there be anything short of that that would get you to stop boycotting? Because here's the situation.

[B]

Only one person's preceding that message. Not even Nina Turner or Tamika Mallory are saying.

[A]

I know, but here's what I'm saying in this situation is I think this entire quagmire shows just what a position Target is in because Jamal Bryant has come out and said, hey, the boycott is over. And what I am seeing, I cannot tell you what the average person in Atlanta or that goes to his church or whatever, but what I'm seeing is, no, it's not over.

[B]

Well, thank God.

[A]

That's what I'm seeing. And so the problem that Target has is that Target, for whatever reason, this boycott has been sticky as it regards to them. And they are not going to be able to soft pedal in any way the response or the resolution to this. People want decisive and clear action from Target based upon the allegiance that they had to Target before. And anything short of that, they not going to change the way they feel about it. And if they think that sending Jamal Bryant out as an emissary to say, hey, everything's okay now, if they think that's going to work. It's obvious that it's not.

[B]

Well, but, but, and you're right. But I want to focus on Jamal Bryant because, because you got.

[A]

You have an issue.

[B]

But it's, it is so it. The video that he just played, he said he, he complimented the CEO, a man who has not apologized, who, to your point, has capitulated to the, or the organization that he is CEO of has to the Trump administration, which means he will continue to carry out things that are in favor of this administration. He has not apologized to the black community. He has not said that he is implementing the DEI initiatives. He has not deposited money into black banks. He is only continuing. Which they're almost done, right? It's like 97%. He is only honoring a pledge that was made six years ago, almost six years ago. So I need. The reason I'm so big on Jamal Bryant is because you positioned yourself as the leader of this. There are other people, but he really was the face, which is how he would want it. You positioned yourself as this. There was a way for you to say, I'm done and the boy, my fast is done. He didn't say that. He said that they have. Target has done what it needed to do. He said the CEO is a good man. And he said the boycott is over. That is if the cause, if you understood what Nina Turner and Tamika Mallory and the people who started in Minneapolis before were about, then you would understand how you doing. A press conference and you set putting out that video is in direct contrast to what it is that they're doing. Are you for us or are you against us? Is this about you and what you were doing? Or is it about what the people in the community are trying to do and push forward or force the hand of, of Target? Don't get here and be like, this is the Montgomery boycott. And then you pull out and aren't truthful about what it is that Target has or hasn't done for the community. He is a problem to this cause with what he did. And I'm sorry, that is the part that I'm going to focus on because it left all of us confused. I was so confused. Then as I started researching it, I started learning so much more. And I realized I, it's not how I just how I personally feel. What he did hurt, maybe temporarily. Hopefully it didn't. You know, people still realize that Target has not done what it said it was going to do or not said. But Target has not changed its opinion or what it's doing. But hopefully it did not take away. But if you just read the headline and you follow Jamal Bryant, you think the boycott is over?

[A]

I think that the other actors in this entire movement were very quick to make sure people didn't think that. I think that was good on their part. Just to let people know, I've talked to a lot of different people. The boycott is not over. But what I will say is that people that I have talked to inside of this thing say, hey, his part of it is. And they don't care. So I'm just being you guys.

[B]

Do they care how people are perceiving it?

[A]

Look like I've made calls and sent messages and stuff like that. And I've even asked people. I've asked people involved in this, Involved in this, not directly. I still have another conversation to have at the end of the day. I've asked people, do you guys care whether or not people boycott Target or not? And they were like, at this point, you can boycott if you want. Right. So my thing is. My thing is.

[B]

Can I ask you why they're saying that if their demands weren't met? Well, because both Tameka and Nina have said to boycott.

[A]

Well, okay, so Tameka and Nina have said to boycott. Tameka and Nina are very, very clear about what's going on. Very clear about what's going on. And I'll speak more to Senator Turner in the future. Probably they're very clear about what's happening, and they're probably going to continue to push the line. They are organizers. And organizers need very specific remedies to problems. Organizers don't organize just to have a problem. Sort of end up in the milieu of, like, we're okay. Organizers go. This is what you got to do. All right. I think the critique here for me is, number one, how this message got to people. All right? People have to know you're asking them to do something. You're also having an effect on black brands inside of Target. So the black brands that are inside of Target, they need to be able to know when this will be over, because there is a cost, right? Like, there is a cost here. What we didn't do in this one that we seem to do in the bus boycott is we didn't do no carpooling. It didn't seem to be that much thought, and maybe I'm wrong about this. I would love to have somebody catch me up on this. Didn't seem to be that much thought about the black people that were going to have to walk to work. Because in the boycott. There were black people that were going to have to walk to work and there were carpools and we did all kinds of stuff to sort of mitigate the damage that this action would have on the community.

[B]

What would it have looked like for black business?

[A]

I do not know. I do not know. But we can learn from that, though. That's nobody's fault. Like, we can learn from that. And this is way more complex because this is like a very direct capitalistic endeavor to hold a corporation accountable in this way. This is a lot different. It's not the same thing. Right. That's with no disrespect to our fabulous and brave and amazing ancestors. So I don't know that I have a problem with him stopping his boycott. I don't. I do have a problem with the fact that there doesn't seem to be more consistency at the top of this than what I would have liked there to be. And I don't know whose fault that is. I don't know who you blame for that. But I know that when people come. When people are this invested into something and they come away with it with more questions than they do answers, what it actually does is erodes their belief in this type of action. They start to think that maybe those general strikes that people have in the back of their minds won't work. They start to think that I should have been going to target this entire time. These motherfuckers don't know what they doing. They can't get they shit together. And I would just plead and beg and this is nobody's fault. I'm not calling out nobody, man. Because this work is so fucking hard. And I am in no fucking position in any type of way, any type of way, any type of way to criticize the people that are doing this work because it is difficult to do. But if there's just one thing I could say or one little even note, I could say it's just like, be on the same page. Because if you're not on the same page, the people going to burn the book. Their lives are hard enough already when you ask them to make even the smallest sacrifices. There has to be something on the other end of it that they understand. And this is confusing to people whether it should be or whether it shouldn't be.

[B]

Well, it shouldn't be. I think we can agree with that. The messaging I thought was clear while it was going on. And the one person who defected made people start saying, well, wait, what? Nobody was saying, wait, what? Before, Nobody was. And it's fine if the people you're talking to don't care that he left. But I think they need to be paying attention to the conversation of the shoppers, the consumers who are like, what are we doing?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's what's important. And nobody was saying that prior to this press conference. It was very clear what we were and were not doing.

[A]

Okay. I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rachi, we gotta get Jamal Bryant on the podcast so she can talk to him.

[B]

I don't want to.

[A]

Is this some. Is this something that. Is there something more to this? Is this.

[B]

No, there's.

[A]

Oh, is this a Gisele?

[B]

It's. No. They have a good relationship.

[A]

They do.

[B]

Yeah, they do. They have a very core.

[A]

What's up with Gisele lately? I haven't been on Potomac. I haven't been tapping in.

[B]

They just finished their season.

[A]

Okay, what happened? Oh, is the grandam back? She's back.

[B]

The grand dame. We don't know if she's going to come back for the next season, but she was at the reunion. She did do a sit down special with Andy after she got out of jail. The cameras were there when she got out of jail. Now we have Wendy possibly going to jail. Her trial's coming up April and May. She and her husband.

[A]

Can I ask, are the feds targeting the Real Housewives?

[B]

Neither one of these are federal cases.

[A]

Well, whoever. Or the law. Okay, fine. Is law enforcement targeting the Real Housewives? There's been a. Can I. There's been a rash in the last, what, four or five years of Real Housewives getting caught up in shit. I would have to order. I have a theory that the police, police that they are watching the Real Housewives, looking into some of these business dealings and getting investigating tips from watching this show and then going out and targeting these women. I'm being for real. Think about it. It's not just the black ones having. Some of the white ladies got hemmed up and went to jail for different fraud type of shit. Because when you on here and you say you got this business and the ladies on the show are making fun of the business, they're like, this business is a little bit shady and they dissing you and calling you a fraud and all of that. I think somewhere that in these different, like, jurisdictions and stuff like that, it's a Real Housewives task force. Because these task force. I'm serious. So they treating them like the rappers.

[B]

Karen. Karen ran into a tree and it was her fourth time having an alcohol related incident with the vehicle so. And there's footage of her saying she was a concubine of one of the founding fathers. In the video, there are. So that's. So that's that. Wendy.

[A]

Wendy. Wendy. It's some corruption shit.

[B]

Insurance fraud.

[A]

See?

[B]

And they were. There are receipts of them selling it. Selling the stuff that they claim was stolen. There are. There's an allegation that they have multiple credit cards and different names, like Pam Oliver and Eddie Hennessy.

[A]

Pam Oliver is funny. That's funny. But what I'm saying is, would they have been arrested for this stuff if. Would they have been arrested for this stuff had they never gone on the show?

[B]

I think the DUI thing is a little different, but the DUI thing is definitely different. But I think. I don't know. I mean, Andy and. I mean, Andy. Wendy and her husband are fighting it. So I don't know. They are maintaining their innocence, whatever it may be. I think that. I think the allocation is 500,000 and stuff like purses, jewelry. She's apparently something that she's reported as stolen. She's wearing it on a red carpet. There's an email where Eddie sends to her. He's like, hey, we gotta add some more stuff to this. Like, what else do we need to do? We need to beef it up. It's not looking good.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Insurance fraud. I know people do it. I think that maybe you could say that they could be making an example out of them. Maybe. But so far it's not. Look, it's not looking good.

[A]

Hey, Andy Cohen set up a legal fund, Dog. No, no, he need to do that. Set up a legal fund.

[B]

Them getting back on the show is enough.

[A]

These women are being picked on by the authorities. I'm serious, man. Set up a legal fund. Set up a legal fund for them. Cause you. Cause the show is making storylines out of their business dealings. I don't know. Didn't somebody have like a. They ran massage. They had like a. Wasn't one of them running, like, massage. Didn't one of them have, like a chain of massage places? What was it?

[B]

Well, she was a chiropractor.

[A]

A chiropractor.

[B]

But there wasn't fraud with that.

[A]

But something happened, right? Like they had to downsize.

[B]

The family just took over the business. Like they weren't running it well.

[A]

But I remember. I remember watching the scene where Mia was in an apartment and she had to downsize. And it was like. It was the chiropractic thing that they were running.

[B]

Gordon and her husband had mental health issues. He wasn't running the business correctly. There was. It's like he's got diagnosed with bipolar. I like this a whole thing.

[A]

Okay, so what I'm saying is no crime if I'm an enterprising young state prosecutor or something like that. I go, oh, my God, I could get a big fucking fish from the Potomac. I can harvest that fish right out of the river. So I sent a team of young, enterprising untouchables to go in there and make an example. This is what's happening. How come I'm the only one that cares about these women being put in jail? I got a list. Can I interest you in Teresa Giudice?

[B]

Yeah, look, all of this stuff, she went to federal prison for a year,

[A]

and we covered it on TMZ because she had, like, a special menu down there and all of that stuff that was going on. So what I'm saying is, like, I really think this. This is the same thing they started doing to rappers. Rappers would get arrested sometimes, but then there was a special hip hop police that would take rappers down. That's happening to the Real Housewives.

[B]

Give me somebody else.

[A]

So they got. Who is. Who is Jen Shah?

[B]

Jen Shaw. She just got out.

[A]

Federal wire fraud and conspiracy to commit money laundering. Running a nationwide telemarketing scheme targeting elderly victims.

[B]

It's bad. It's bad. She's in jail with Elizabeth Holmes and they became buddies. And Jelaine. Ghislaine. I always say her name wrong.

[A]

Oh, they down there, the three of them?

[B]

Well, they were, but now Jedshah's out.

[A]

Theranos is crazy. I like her.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I like her too.

[A]

We gotta go. But, like, we gotta get to Orion. Michelle Bethea. But, like, look, Theranos is. You know why I like Theranos? Why? Theranos is impossible for a nigga. You could never be Theranos nigga. You can't do that. Like, every time I see everyone make fun of that dude. That's a fake doctor. Have you seen him? Have y' all seen the goddess of the black God? That's a fake doctor. Every time I see them making fun, that's light work compared to Theranos. Theranos lady raised like $40 billion. Awesome shit that she never had to prove.

[B]

Never.

[A]

She. She. Yeah, I saw the movie. I saw the movie.

[B]

I saw the doc. The series is so good.

[A]

So Theranos goes into a with Bill Clinton and the rest of these people and goes, hey, look, Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton was a part of it. There's probably a whole baphomet thing, she goes, look, hey, I got a machine. And you give the machine your blood, tells you everything that's wrong with you. Five minutes. And somebody went, oh, my fucking God. What did you say? She went, nigga, I said, I got a machine. The machine take your blood five minutes later, the machine tell you everything that's wrong with you. I need $500 million. But you have a great tone in

[B]

your voice, and you're very good at it.

[A]

That's Bill Clinton. I wish. Boy, white people got it good, man. Theranos went around there and it took years. It took years.

[B]

She was everywhere. She was on the COVID of magazine.

[A]

It took years for them to. She had to prove that she was a fraud. They tried to put the scared.

[B]

They had invested all the money. They. They needed it to be true.

[A]

They built it there. And the Theranos, the engineers at therapy, you guys gotta go watch the documentary. The engineers are like, hey, guys, this isn't possible. So. But it's time. Theranos is in fucking Walgreens. And the guys are going, hey, we can't do this. And she's like, make it and then put her in jail, boy. Shout out to her, man, I fuck with her. Heavy rhyme.

[B]

Michelle Bethea this episode is brought to you by Comcast Business. This just in. The Comcast business price lock guarantee is back. For a limited time, you can lock in the same great rate on gig speed, Internet and advanced security for five years, all from the company with 99.9% network reliability. Switch to the Comcast Business 5 Year Price Lock Guarantee today. Learn more at comcastbusiness.com ends March 29, 2026.

[A]

Guys, we've already been partnering. I get a chance to talk about a lot of things right now, but also my favorite show on television. I get to talk about it right now as well. It's been destroying me. Fogelman's like a. I don't know what's wrong with me. Fogelman. I could argue that Fogelman is an emotional terrorist. Okay, you could.

[C]

And you could argue that you actually have legitimate points and start this particular season.

[B]

This season. Not the first one.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no. The first one too. We have just like. First one was Ryan Michelle bethei was

[C]

really hard to get. I mean, that was. It was a little bit of this. But this season is like. It's like. You know that scene when in Last of the Mohicans and he literally takes the.

[B]

No. Are you kidding me? That is one of my favorite movies.

[C]

Is. That movie's incredible, right? And like, he. He takes the heart out. Like, that's what it feels like. It feels like at every moment, he is just taking. You know, but only it's slow. It's not like a fast kind of thing. It's like, oh, you about to. You know, you really. Taking my heart out of my chest.

[B]

And a little unexpected. I knew this season was gonna be sad, but I wasn't expecting. Expecting some of the sadness. Like I'm legitimately bawling as I'm watching. Oh, yeah. Particularly the last episode.

[A]

If you guys didn't hear. The last episode was nuts.

[C]

If you took my episode four, Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Cause five came out last night.

[A]

Come on, guys. Like the last episode. So four, not five. I haven't watched five yet. I'll watch it. I'll watch it. But four? Come on, man. What are we doing? You know, it's the show with a

[C]

little white baby on a horse.

[A]

Now he's gotta go. So now he's got the baby. All right, I don't wanna spoil anything for you guys.

[B]

No, Just spoiler alert.

[A]

No, no, no. We can't do the spoiler because literally, I want people. If you start to watch. And I'm not bullshitting, by the way, this is not. I didn't know you guys were friends, by the way. I didn't know this was.

[B]

You didn't.

[A]

I didn't. Ryan, Michelle, Bethe

[B]

and Soros.

[A]

Which we'll get into Delta, host of the Paradise Companion podcast. Look, I didn't know you guys were friends. I'm watching the show, you guys. If you start on season. If you start on episode one of season two, you have no idea where this story is going to be by episode four. It's nuts. Here's the deal. I'll say this. Cause we did Crazy stupid love on the rewatchables.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I have a thought. Right?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Fogelman is one of the top five in the town. Fogelman is. And I asked my friend Simon Kinberg about this, who was talking about the fact that some of his unproduced stuff is some of the best stuff you'll ever read. I don't really feel like there's five guys spinning story right now in the town. Better than Fogelman. No, just like when you take. This is Us, when you take paradise, when you take some of the stuff that he's done. Screenwriting, his ability to set a character up, make you emotionally invest into a character, and then pay that off in story. Second to none. The dude's like a genius.

[C]

Absolutely. He's not Like a genius. He is a genius. And to continue to do it over. It's one thing to have this is us, right? And be like, well, I ain't got no more ideas. We'd be like, you know what? That's fair. Like, go head on, take your money, go somewhere, you know? But then to have this is us, and then come with paradise. Like, what kind of brain does that? Like, what kind of brain? And like you said, the movie Crazy Stupid Love. I. I talk about Bolt all the time. Bolt is an animated film about this cat. Oh, that movie Bolt.

[A]

It's actually a dog.

[C]

Is it? But isn't a cat and a dog. Bolt is the dog.

[A]

Bolt is a dog. It is a cat, but there's a

[C]

little cat that's like this little scrap. See, because I identify with the little scrappy cat. Okay, I'm gonna cry right now just thinking about that movie, because I still

[A]

see it now it's animated, but it's not. So the Bolt came out and it was. And so, like, you know, Disney had their animation deal, and then there was also Pixar, right? Bolt is not Pixar, but Bolt is a Disney computer animated deal. It's a great movie.

[C]

It's amazing.

[A]

2008, 2009, something like that.

[C]

Because I don't think. I don't think I watched it with one of my children, like, after it came out, because I don't think I saw. Because, you know, I wouldn't have seen it necessarily when it came out. And I was like, I mean, we did this, like, right? And you see me right now, I

[B]

don't know if I read it. I don't know if I can handle that right now.

[C]

But again, and it has a happy. It has. It's not. It's for children, so it's not. But my point is, is that the range that this man has, the range of. Of. Of ideas and mind and the. He's so humble. They're all so humble. All the writers. I mean, I had on the podcast, I got to talk to four of the writers, and they honestly don't. I was like, do you guys think you're just, like, playing tiddlywinks? Cause they're like, no, we just, you know, we have this idea. And really, when you're breaking story, I was like, you say that like, everyone does this. Like, you say that like, I'm just. We're just having fun. I'm like, no, y' all are the tippity top. And what you're doing is so incredibly. It's like watching craftsmanship. You know what I mean? It's watching craftspeople come to their work and be able to just create this incredible, like, you said, character. And some people do story quite well. They got that plot. I don't know the character's name, can't remember, you know? And then some people do character very well, and you're like, I don't really know what the story was about, but my goodness, what's really cool, you take

[B]

the character with you. Like, I have not stopped thinking about the last episode. Like, even now, like, I'm kind of, like, sitting and waiting for episode five, because I'm still thinking. Not about what happened. I'm thinking about the people. Like, I feel like I knew that person. Out of four episodes. Four episodes. I feel like I knew them.

[C]

I know.

[B]

You are on this next season.

[C]

I am.

[B]

Or this season. I should say next season. This season. What can you. Well, first, let me ask you, too. What can you tell us?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then two. Do you know what's gonna happen? I know you can't tell us, but do you know what's gonna happen the whole time or just past your character?

[C]

No, I know. I saw.

[B]

Cause I saw the whole thing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

I've seen the whole thing.

[B]

So tell us. Cause you're a fan of it now. You get to be a part of it.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was one of the, like, best moments of my career, to be honest with you. To be on a show that I would watch. To be on a show that I do watch. Right. To be on a show that I'm a fan of. To be on a show where I'm, like, in awe of the writing and the writers and all that. Doesn't. It doesn't happen a lot, you know? Like, you just. A lot of. A lot of. It's just that synchronicity and that synergy doesn't happen all the time. So when it does, it's really, really, really, really special. And, you know, you just. I think the only other time it happened was when I first graduated from NYU and I did an episode of as the World Turns, and I have been watching it with my grandmother since I was like, two. I was like, grandmama, I'm on the show. They were like, you can't wave at the camera. I'm like, I can't. You're like, no. I was like, I'm gonna get fired, ain't it Anyway. But I did not get fired, thank the Lord. But the point is, is that it's like those moments when you feel that, like, connection to the show. It's just really, really, really rare. And so it felt really special to me. And I. I'm lucky because I got to be in the past. And even when I. Even when I read the script, when they initially were like, okay, we thought about this, and I was. I was, you know, over the moon, but I would skip the present day because I didn't want to know anything.

[B]

Oh, I love it.

[C]

So I was like, read. Because in the past. It's one thing to read about the past, you know, And I had. Because obviously. But I was so I would even. Even I, as an actor would say. Because I didn't want it to be ruined. I was like, I don't want to know what happens. Like, I haven't gotten there yet. So it was. Yeah, it was. It was. And it's. What I can say is, a, I'm in the past. B, we find out a lot about Jane. Oh, I knew you were gonna do that. I knew. No, I know. Everybody's like, is this where you. No, we don't take Jane out. Jane.

[B]

You like Jane.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You like the psychopath?

[B]

Of course he does.

[A]

Just wanted to play the Wii and we find out.

[C]

I will tell you this. We find out why she likes to play the Wii.

[A]

She just wanted to play the Wii.

[B]

Oh, okay. So I thought we were done with that part of the story.

[A]

To me, the show doesn't work without characters like Jane.

[C]

No, of course.

[B]

But it's still frustrating. As if you are frustrating.

[C]

I don't dislike her.

[A]

You can dislike her, but at the same time, that's the little stuff that you throw in there that keeps everybody on their toes. Like we've seen before, like post apocalyptic people come together and differing factions and all of that. Stuff like that. But little characters like that that are causing problems within this civilized world, like that mental health thing, that deal, that vacancy still existing. That's what kind of makes the world fresh.

[B]

I'm shocked. How good, if I can say this, how good season two is. Cause because season one was so great, I just was like, there's no way that season two could follow up. And then I thought, we'll definitely get a season three. And I just thought, oh, season two will kind of like just link the two together. It'll be a sleeper, and then we'll come back in season three.

[C]

I have said those exact. The exact words in that exact way.

[B]

Like, I'm blown away. It's even. I was like, how in the world. Did they do this? I just. I just thought it was impossible. I was like, all right, we're just gonna go watch him try to. Well, I don't want to give spoilers, but watch him do his thing.

[C]

That's exactly. And so, I mean, I'm literally on camera saying those exact words. Because they were like, well, what was it like? You know? Cause I did the companion podcast for the show, and I was like. I was a little disappointed. Cause I was like, aw, I'm gonna be podcasting the Rudy Poot season. Cause there's just no way. I said the same word. Like, there's literally no way that you can not even top, but be as good at.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then they topped it. I was like, y'.

[A]

All.

[C]

Y' all out here. Like, this is miraculous.

[A]

What do you think the show Breakthrough. Because there are a lot of good shows on all these streaming networks, and some of them don't get the recognition that paradise has. But for some reason, this show actually found its way into the zeitgeist in a way.

[C]

That's a really good question. I like. You know, there's so many elements that go into what makes something pop. I think that there's always that, like, X factor that we'll never know what it is. But I do think if we could break down some of those elements. You know, we can't deny the star power. And I'm not just saying it because, you know, he live in my house, but we can't deny the star power of Sterling K. Brown.

[A]

Now, who is that?

[C]

That guy? And I think the fact that Sterling and Dan are back together. So I think that helps things break through, because it's like, from the creators of. People are always gonna be like, wait, what? What? What? And then, because it did have such a twist, I think it was.

[B]

It.

[C]

It hooked people. So it made people start talking about it on, you know, the. The threads and on all those places. And. And. And last but not least, I have to plug us as black women. I think we. If something is breaking through, so much of it, if you kind of dig in through that breakthrough is we're there somewhere. We're there on threads. We're there on Instagram. We're somewhere being like, hey, y', all, I ain't gonna hold you, but did you watch Paradise? Paradise Girl.

[B]

What Girl?

[C]

You need to, like, anytime you get a girl into a conversation, it's generally gonna break through the zeitgeist. So I think those are the.

[B]

The key.

[C]

I mean, even heated rivalry.

[B]

I haven't watched it yet.

[C]

You haven't watched it. I know, but it's like so much of, you know, so much of us is just. We. Us is we. We is. We is. We is driving it. But, you know, a lot of that has to do with, like, the. I think when. When black women get behind something, you know, I think we really can push things out of, you know, and make them pop. Yeah.

[B]

In all ways, by the way.

[A]

Heated rivalries.

[C]

A lot heated rivalries. Amazing. You, girl, you.

[B]

They told me I have to watch it at night, so I. I just like, trying to prepare. That's what. That's what I was told.

[A]

Who told you have to watch it at night?

[B]

You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Freaky ass.

[B]

He said you need to watch it.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I probably know who this is.

[C]

I wonder.

[B]

I don't know. But they were just like, get to watch at night. So every time I'm free in the day, I'm like, can't watch heated rivalry.

[A]

I'm supposed to watch it going crazy in heated rivalry.

[C]

I think you need to just jump in night or day.

[A]

Like, they jumping in.

[C]

It's incredible.

[A]

They going deep.

[B]

She just took a picture with Connor.

[C]

I did. Child.

[B]

Wait, can I follow up really quickly? Do you think also, I am not a conspiracy theorist. Even though I feel like as the day goes on, I'm turning into one a little bit. Like, I'm starting to question everything. Do you think some of it too, is that. One, do you think there's an underground city somewhere and that also people believe that this is something that could be happening? I think that there's that interest in that.

[C]

I'm gonna answer the second question first. Absolutely. People think that this could be happening. I think that there was a time maybe 10, 15 years ago when paradise would have been like, automatically sci fi. No one, you know, but now I think people are like, is this a documentary? They trying to tell us something? And two, do I think there's an underground city? No. But do I think that there are very, very, very, very, very uber 1% wealthy people who have built something akin to it? Abso freaking lutely. You can't convince. I mean, I'm like you. I used to be. I used to think that I was like a pretty like, oh, God. Same, you know, let's not get into conspiracy now. I'm like, tell it all, child.

[B]

It's all true.

[C]

Most likely. Most likely that's happening. I'm like, come on, somebody got a dinosaur somewhere. I'm sure.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. I think the thing that I connect with is that if they knew the caldera was going to erupt in 10 years, I think I'm fully on board with the fact that they wouldn't tell us.

[C]

I would agree.

[A]

So I think that part of it is like, we know that there's like these expansive bunkers around. I watch like YouTube documentaries on people that have. This one guy has a tank. I watched his YouTube documentary. This guy has a tank. He's got a real tank. He's got like a Bradley, he's got like a tank. He's got all this kind of survival stuff. So I know that that exists. But I think that most people agree now that if there were some civilization changing cataclysm that were on the horizon, that we wouldn't be told and that what they would start to do was pick essential people from all different types of parts of the world and then figure out how they were gonna rebuild society. They just wouldn't tell us. One day we'd just wake up and everything would be gone. Okay, look, I don't want this to get too depressing because the show does litigate a lot of things that you can only litigate in a post apocalyptic show. Ingenuity, the power of human connection. Like what you would do in a situation where you are going to find your wife. The thing that's gonna give you purpose and meaning in this. And that's not a spoiler. If you guys are watching the second season, Sterling's character is going to find his wife. But along the way, where does your humanity pull you?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Where does your connection to people. Is it possible to still make connection in a situation so desperate? Because, like, that's basically like what we are. I think that's another reason why the show works is because there is this science fiction element to it. But essentially it's about people making emotional decisions about one another.

[C]

Yeah, no, you're absolutely. I mean, I can only say you're absolutely right, because that is where I think the true genius and the true magic of the show lies is what you just talked about, which is that it's about these human beings. Some of them are mostly good. Some of them may be mostly questionable. But in those situations, what do these mostly good people do? What kind of decisions do they make? They still love their wives, they still love their children. They still love. You know, they still have a holy charge.

[B]

Right?

[C]

What is that? Holy charge. And what do they. What do they feel responsible for? Because you're still gonna. You're still gonna wake up Every morning. And you're still gonna feel responsible to someone or something. You're still gonna have needs that drive you. And are you going to go crazy thinking that the person you love the most is out there struggling? You know, and that's just a real thing. And whether that's. You're in a bunker or whether that's. I moved across the country, and I don't know if this person is okay, I gotta go. You know, all of those things, to your point, like, we are still gonna have to make those decisions, which is one of the reasons why I don't know that I want to be here if. Oh, yeah. If that goes down, I was like, I don't. I don't know that I. I don't want to be. I mean, Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. I don't want to be in the Thunderdome. I don't want to be in the Thunderdome. I don't want to be scraping for.

[B]

I just take me now.

[C]

I want to walk right into the blazing sun of the nuclear blast.

[B]

I don't. I don't. I don't know if I'm built for it. I think about this a lot. Like, I think about zombies, whatever it may be. Like, I do the whole Walking Dead thing, and I'm like, you know what? I'm. I'm okay. You're not insane. I'm okay. Not at all. Not at all. No.

[C]

Because I just think that what people. I don't know, you know, what made me. Made my decision for me. I saw this. It's a good movie. You'll never. You won't sleep for a week. It's called the Road by Cormac McCarthy. It's based on the book.

[A]

So I read the book.

[C]

You read the. And I heard the book is way better.

[A]

And then I watched the movie the Rogue. The Rogue, by a guy named Cormac McCarthy. He's the same guy who did no country for Old Men.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, the movie, which has Viggo Mortensen in it, is an approximation of the sheer terror, panic, and existential dread that that book will give you. Like, he wrote another book called Blood Meridian, which is whatever, but, like, the movie almost gets there. The book will just leave you completely emotionally barren.

[C]

He's absolutely right. He's absolutely. And I didn't even read the book. I just heard the book is way worse than the movie. And I was like, if anything is worse than this, that movie, again, the way in which they filmed it, it was. And I know we're not here to Talk about that. But I say all this to say that when I saw that, I was like, oh, this is. This is really what it would be like at the end of the world. And the thing. The thing is so genius about the movie and the book. Well, I don't know about the book, but in the movie they never talk about what happens because what happened is completely inconsequential to where you end up and how the darkness that he explores in that book in terms of human nature. And I was like, what? I mean, not to get biblical, but I was like, what does it. You live another day. But you had to do all these horrible, awful things to live one day. And y' all ain't got WI fi.

[B]

Oh, no, that's not gonna make it fair.

[C]

I can't. I'm. Let me. I just. I don't think I want to be here.

[B]

I constantly have dreams about the end of the world. Like, if I'm going to have a dream, it is usually about me trying to survive at the end of the world. It's like a deep fear of mine. Like an apocalyptic type dream constantly. Or tornadoes. One of the two. I'm constantly dreaming something about that. So it's a no for me. I want to talk about good people.

[C]

Yes, let's.

[B]

Let's change it. Let's talk about good people. Let's speak to good people. You're a member of Delta Sigma Theta sorority.

[C]

I'm a proud member of Delta Sigma

[B]

Theta Sorority Incorporated, which just thrills van, because one of our favorite topics here.

[C]

I know. I've heard of all.

[B]

I love it.

[C]

It's my favorite thing to watch you two go at it.

[A]

So we talked about it. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

[B]

No, no, go ahead.

[A]

What do you say? So we talked about it before. Cause one of our producers here is a black girl in a white sorority.

[B]

And which happens.

[A]

Okay? So I wanted to have a conversation with her about that. But you agree with me on something, and I wanna bring it up.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

To me. Black ladies and white sororities. Hey, fine. It's cool. The worst people on PWI campuses are black dudes and white fraternities. Those are the worst people on campus.

[C]

I do agree with them, though.

[A]

These are the most. The worst guys on campus by far. Look, I was around them, like, look like to. To me, like, hey, bruh. Like, we. We. You know what? It's funny. Drewski did a sketch about this.

[B]

Yes, he did. I don't know.

[A]

I don't know if I don't. I don't Know if Drew Ski. I can't explain. I don't know if Drew Ski is just like this, if Drew Ski's, like, psychic, or if he can just look at all these interactions and he just knows how to make them, like, super real in these sketches. But he was talking about the fact that when they send the black guy out to say who can come into the party, the black guy's a buffer. He's the one that's in there doing the dis. All of that stuff. But I watched that at Louisiana Tech and someone on LSU's campus. What's your thought on black guys and white sororities? Say something controversial.

[B]

Fraternities.

[A]

Fraternities. Say something controversial.

[C]

White sorority. That'd be. Oh, he's lovely, though.

[A]

Say something. I want.

[C]

Say something controversial. I'm gonna say something that doesn't get me cancer. Listen, there get canceled.

[A]

We can bring you back.

[C]

Listen, I'm gonna do the best that I can, and I'm gonna blame it on the food poisoning I had this weekend. So that's what I'm blame it on. But I do think that there is a lot of obvious overcompensating that those young people do, and they think they're masking the overcompensation, but it's so incredibly obvious to everyone else, a Except the white people, maybe that they're around, or maybe the white people enjoy that overcompensating, but it's a high price that they pay to be in those spaces.

[B]

I would argue that they don't care if we think that they're overcompensating, particularly like the men, like the Druski skit.

[C]

I think they do.

[B]

I don't think that they care that we do that. What we think they're so into what they think that they've been accepted, like in the Drewski skit. That's why it's so funny. He's clearly taking pride that he's different than the people that he's trying to keep out of this. He's the one. He's the chosen one. So I would argue that they don't even care what it's all about. The others, you think they care?

[C]

I think. I think. I think deep down inside they have a sense of shame. I think they know they're wrong. I do. I think, again, I think that's where the masking comes from. I do. I really. Because a lot of these guys have. Some of them have black mamas and daddies.

[A]

Yeah, most of them do.

[C]

Most of them do. They know they Know they got a mama and a grand. They've met an old black woman at least once in their lives. They got something in there that says, now, baby, you know you ain't supposed to be doing all this. And they can see it in us. Like, if you really watch them, they avoid eye contact. They don't really be looking us in the eye. Cause they know the whole thing is gonna crumble. They'll just break down in tears and be like, take. I'm too far in. It's too deep. It's like, come on, baby. But, yeah, no, I think. And again, I have always said those spaces, what you have to do to prove and show your loyalty. I'm like, agreed. That's not a price I'm willing to pay.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no. I have no desire for it. But I want to talk about the D9. Because my little niece crossed this weekend.

[C]

Yay.

[B]

At Fisk university. She's number 33.

[A]

See my camera roll?

[C]

No, not Fisk Delta.

[B]

Okay, Delta.

[C]

We be this exciting.

[B]

Yeah, that's number 33.

[A]

See what happened? Yeah. Right. See what happened?

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Here you go.

[A]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[B]

I even got to my question.

[A]

Wait, no, wait, wait, wait, wait. You guys, I'm right. Look at just what happened with this elegant, intelligent, beautiful woman who went. The first thing that I said, he

[C]

just picked up on it.

[A]

Aha. I said, sigma Gamma Rho. And she goes, will we be this happy? And then she goes, wait, I'm not supposed to say it. We will be happy. I know I'm right.

[B]

She meant that because she knows I'm a Delta, so I would not be this happy.

[A]

Try to save it if you want.

[B]

That is exactly what she.

[C]

That's exactly what she.

[A]

Okay. You would need both the dog to come in and save it.

[B]

She crossed. And I was so proud. And it's their centennial for their chapter at Fisk. Yeah. And, yeah, I wish I could have gone out there to see her. But as I watched her, not only was I proud, I was just, like, very. It was a nostalgic moment. Just thinking, I'm 21 years in April, past my time that I came out. But there's been this conversation. I've seen you talk about it on threads. Because we love the threads about people denouncing their sorority. And, I mean, to each their own. Fine. But this. Trying to gather this movement when we have such pride in the meaning behind being a Delta, how it's impacted our lives, the friends that we've made. It's so much More than maybe what, somebody on the outside who thinks they know. No, you don't, you don't. You have no idea.

[C]

You just.

[B]

I just have no idea about what you get me, right? Like you just, there's no. You don't know.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Anyways, what, how do you feel like your thoughts on seeing some of these people come out? Like, I'm almost like, if you're just gonna denounce, just go, just, just go away. What are your thoughts on it?

[C]

Well, that's how it used to be. If people were going to denounce or all that stuff, they just did it very quietly. They just, they just walked. You don't. No one's forcing you to wear letters. No one's forcing you to go to a meeting. They begging you to go to a meeting maybe, but there's no, there's not. You know, once you do whatever it is your process is, you can walk away and used to be people just did it quietly. So the first, the first issue I have is the. Is people using social media to jump on a bandwagon. Because I'm like, well, that right there is problematic because why do you have to use this? Because now, you know, you might get followers, you know, so now, now it's a little bit self serving.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

Right. That we, we have to, we have to just call it, call a spade a spade. Now it looks very self serving, but it's also on a larger scale the fact that these people, that a lot of these denouncers are wrapping up this like Christianity, this demon, all that stuff.

[B]

Demonic part.

[C]

Yeah. Like, y' all know that the people who founded these organizations were like one generation removed from slavery. Like you really think that those are the people that was like, let's do something demonic. You know, if they had all that, they could have just, I don't know, sprouted wings and flown away from slavery. Like, I'm not, I'm not trying to be funny about slavery, but I'm saying, like, if we really just look at the fact that there were, that these were people that said. They all looked around and they said, we're the first people to go to places like Howard and Hampton. We're the first people to get an educated people. They wouldn't let them read during slavery, the onus that was upon that generation. I can only imagine what Those, you know, 1920 year old people must have felt in the year in 1913 and in 1908, in 1906, what they must have thought about how they were going to progress the race. Like, that was real. I mean, I think it might be hard for us to really wrap our brains around because, you know, these are stories to us at a certain point. And we read about, you know, Tuskegee. We read about that. We've read about this. But, like, to really be on that front line and to know that your grandmother and father on both sides could potentially have been enslaved, what they must have felt in terms of, like, how we're going to, like, walk into this free. Like, literally walk into freedom. And I'm like. And those are the people that you think were doing something demonic? Like, I just. I feel like so much of who we are as black people is under attack right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I don't. And I don't want to, you know, to each their own. If you want to walk away, walk away. But when you start talking about our institutions and you start being a tool of people who are trying to take away things, whether it's D9, the black church is under attack. Heck, you know, DEI and all, everything is gone.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I was like, and you don't think that any of that, where it's coming from, is demonic, but you want to talk about some people who were, you know, just like, we are now free, and we're going to do some amazing things in the world for our people. Nah, bruh. Like, you gotta miss me with that. Like, you gotta miss me with that.

[A]

Obviously, you both know that I'm with all of this.

[C]

Is there a but coming?

[B]

You think it's.

[A]

No, no, no, no. I don't think that any of this stuff. I don't know enough about it to know whether or not it's demonic. See what I'm saying? I don't. Like. There you go. I don't know about whether or not it's demonic now, by the way. I also don't know. I also don't know. I don't think I know enough about the denouncing as far as, like, why they're doing it. But I do think that constant examination and reexamination of black cultural institutions is necessary.

[B]

That's fine.

[A]

I think it's stress testing. I think the church, like you brought up the church. I think it's important to examine the church, examine how the church is serving us, what we're giving to the church, what we're getting from the church. I think a lot of times when I've done that, I have realized things that we got from the church and are getting from the church that maybe I didn't realize we were getting, I think in the last. And I give a lot of credit to a lot of people who have reached out. I think in the last couple of months of my life personally, I've looked into the church and like, what do we get from the church today? And I realized that maybe my distance from the church makes it hard for me to see some of the things that we might not be. That we might be getting now. At the basis of some of my critiques, some of those issues that I have still remain. However, I do think this stuff is probably a little less important to me just because I think that these organizations and the space that they hold in black history, which is this gigantic, enormous space, I think they're more harmless than anything else. I think the cost benefit analysis you get way more for having these Greek lettered organizations and the camaraderie and the stuff that they mean didn't any harm. But I think that if there are people inside of these organizations that want to have conversations about them, I don't know that the fact that they are black and old should stop us from having those conversations.

[B]

But that's not what she was saying necessarily.

[A]

I know.

[B]

That's what I'm having the conversation. Yeah. Like, I think that if you have an issue or you want to reevaluate it or you do that, but it's the clout chasing that if feels like. Or, I don't know, it feels disingenuous sometimes when I see these people get on and talk about it. Because you're right. Right. Like it is an. It's an institution and you might. Your process might have been totally different from the next person. It could have been the people that were involved. It could have been the chapter. You have no idea. But if you understand the foundation and the ideals and the principles, then I just don't understand how. I guess you can reevaluate it maybe on your process. Like I said. Now I'm repeating myself. But the foundation of it is something that's different and we can have those conversations. But it doesn't mean, I don't know, that you try to corral all these people and get them to hate on something because of your personal experience. You wanna. Yeah, I'll just leave it there.

[A]

No, I mean, look, this is my. And obviously this is kind of like this is something that there's a big umbrella here that a lot of things fall under.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I do think that there is a thought sometimes in our community or in our culture that you get to. I Feel my opinion of this is the same as it is about the 10 or 15 time incumbent congressperson. I would agree that we cannot talk about whether or not they should still be in Congress. We cannot talk about whether or not they. We can't talk about that because that's one of our elders. They gotta stay there. They was there in 1985. Like a lot of these things, we have to examine them and it has to be okay to examine them without the very mention of them being hit with such like elder cultural centric hierarchy. Like, you shouldn't say that about this, you shouldn't say that about that or it being anti black to say it like, you know what I mean? So that's it. I don't know why they're. I've seen the people denounced and you know, everything is for social media now.

[B]

But like they're doing with Jack and Jill, they're doing it with.

[A]

But like a couple of years ago in Baton Rouge, maybe last year or the year before, there was a guy that got beat to death, like, and

[C]

that needs to be again, critique, valid critique. And that's even beyond valid critique. That means, you know, I don't know how that happened. Who, what, when, where, how, why. But that needs to be internally the organization, all of those people, we need to all see that as a wake up call. Right? Cause that should never happen. No one should ever go to college and die behind some pledging, some hazings, some letters, some numbers, some colors. I don't care. That's, you know, and I think we can all agree on that. And to then also critique. You're right, we need to critique our elders. I think that the elder. I don't believe in elder worship and I don't believe there are any sacred cows in the black community. I really don't. And I think those things can be done in a way that moves us all forward.

[A]

Fair enough.

[C]

As opposed to allowing people from the outside, outside who just want to destroy all of our institutions. You know, I mean that man who was talking, he was talking about, he was a white guy and he's. I don't know whose pastor he is, but somebody in the administration, I don't know if you guys saw this. And he was like, there's no black, There are no black men who have the ability to run a church. They don't have the theology and they don't understand proper theology. And you know, truthfully, we. If for a church to be truly biblical, they need a white man under to because that's. We're the only people who. Under this man with the glasses. Yeah, the man with the glasses. And then they, and they sit there and. And I'm so glad you brought up the fact that he has got. Because they make, he makes, they have sanitized themselves in this way. Like he's got the speak. Right. He's got the little, he's got the little thing and the facial hair and he's got the little, you know, and he's sitting there and he just sounds so normal, you know, it doesn't sound like he's, you know, the most horrible person. He's like, actually.

[A]

But that guy's an avowed white nationalist Christian.

[C]

Yes, but the scary part is how normal he sounds. They are sanitizing all of this so that they could, they're just pushing it on through, just pushing it on down the line so that the, the, the white normies are like. Well, I mean, you know, the way in which he said that, I don't, I don't necessarily agree with all he said, but the way in which he said it, he sounded like he knew what he was talking about. So maybe I should think about that in a different way. And that's how it happens. And that to me is I just see that connection between our institutions having to hold the line.

[A]

You know what I mean? You know, the scary part of that to me is, is that the scary part of what he's saying to me is that if I do like 10 cent analysis, 10 cent analysis of the history of Christianity, it seems like Christianity agrees with him. That's a fair point. If I do a 10 cent analysis of the history of Christianity, it seems like what he's saying seems grotesque, but it seems grotesque because he's saying it so plainly. It seems, it seems like the invention of the black church is a response to what he actually said. And what he said was that black men can't lead churches. But it goes deeper than that. What was actually said was white people and black people can't worship together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was actually said was there's two different Sundays. There's Sunday up the road and then there's Sunday down the road. And the Sunday down the road is where you guys are going to worship. Go invent your own Christianity because you can't take place in ours. And when, like all of those, when those conversations, it's the most segregated place in the world. Right. These churches. Right. But we do this stuff. We go where we feel safe and seen and where we can worship and do things the way that we want to worship. But the craziest thing about him saying that is that I think that people agree with that. I think that people. I think that a lot of Christians would not go to a church where they saw a black man leading them and giving them their message. I don't think that they think that God would deliver a message that could lead them to salvation through a nigger. And I'm just being for real. And so to me, I think those are the conversations that he. That guy is. That guy is such an idiot. But to me, when I look at him, I go, huh? He's probably articulating something that he feels like he has an intellectual constituency within his movement. To say he probably feels like that's real.

[B]

Well, yeah. I think he uses scripture, and I think he uses history to back up that point to what you're saying.

[A]

Look at where this conversation is going.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Look at us. Like, I do have. He's not from Hulu, is he? Is he from. Is he. Is he from Hulu?

[C]

No, he's not.

[A]

Because if he's from Hulu, then we're about to get told to stop talking about this stuff and get back. Okay.

[B]

No, that's what we do. That's what we do in higher learning. We spent a lot of time on talking about paradise and the season and your podcast.

[C]

The podcast. Yes, I do.

[A]

You podcast with your husband?

[C]

I do have a podcast with your husband.

[B]

Wait, wait. And they won an NAACP award. We've been nominated four times. We appreciate the nomination because in the past, you guys have won for the work that you did.

[C]

An NAACP award.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Which I'm told is the new brand.

[B]

Yeah. It's hard for me to accept.

[C]

It's hard for me.

[B]

I know.

[C]

I do know that I say double acp, but anyway, I just remembered I was supposed to do something for my friend's AXO award. I'm sorry, Laura. I forgot anyway, because, you know, the NAAC puts on the AXO Award. Anyway, I apologize to her. Yes, we won. It was very, very fun. I was very surprised that we won, to be honest with you, because, you know, you just never know how people are gonna vote. It's vote the membership votes, and you never know. And it's funny. Cause when we did the podcast, we did it in the midst of the strike. So, you know, the shutdown was one slowdown of our business, but that was like, everybody was in the same sort of boat. And we got back to work pretty fast in the. In our industry because people were like, oh, my God. Content is king. And so they, you know, pull strings, blah, blah, blah, blah. Next thing we know, we're back at work, right? They put a lot of money into the masking and the this and the testing, and they sent us back to work. But the strike was a completely different field because the world was still going on. But our industry was, like, literally, literally shut down, and nobody was talking about anything. We were just on the picket line, and there was no end in sight. There was no vaccine for that. That's just, are we gonna get back to work? And when we got back to work, it's been very. There's just been a lot of contraction in our business. So all of this was going on, and I'm very much like, okay, what can we do? What can we do? What can we do? What can we do? Like, in the midst of this, what can we do? And we were, you know, Sterling and I have a lot of conversations around our. Our island and our kitchen, our little kitchen island. And we just, you know, there's. We're very, very different people, and we see things. It's funny because we're both from St. Louis. We both went to Stanford. We both went to nyu. We have so many points of commonality, and we see the world very differently in so many different. Different ways.

[A]

I was gonna ask that, like, did you guys go back to. Is this like a forever on Netflix thing? Like, because, like. Because when I was looking at it, it's all the same. Is that where you guys met? Was it a St. Louis, or did you guys not know each other?

[C]

We did know each other, but we were born in the same hospital. See, believe it or not.

[B]

Do y' all have mutual friends? Like, was there any crossover?

[C]

There was a ton of. So when I finally met my biologist father, there was. We. We found a lot of cross. And his birthday's today. Happy birthday, Daddy. And we found, like, his uncles went to school with my dad. What else was. My sister went to school with his brother. They went to Ledoux. What else? There were a lot of points, like, once we start to. Like, once I met him, there were points of commonality. Yeah, it's crazy. It's really crazy.

[B]

With the podcast, like, was there any hesitation? Because most people see you guys play a character, you know, and now you're going to be letting people into who you are personally, your relationship, how you guys work together. Was it hard for people to see or to be vulnerable in that way and let people see that side of you?

[C]

If I had had the good sense to Realize that people were actually going to watch it.

[B]

Maybe you didn't think anyone would watch.

[C]

Why? I don't know. I guess because it felt like such a. Like, you know, okay, I'm gonna be real with y'.

[A]

All.

[C]

In la, there's a lot of stuff that people do that no one ever sees. Like these little passion projects. You know what I mean? I have written scripts, I've written pilots, I've started at least four novels. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, somebody's always doing something. I've done one more like, don't nobody care. And I don't say that in, like a. I'm not denigrating myself. I'm not trying to be. But I'm saying, like, you do them because you're like, I'm an artist and I have to keep moving. I cannot let this moss grow on my face.

[A]

You gotta get the idea out of your head.

[C]

Yeah. Gotta get it out there. And I'm not doing this because I think anybody's gonna see it. I'm doing this because I just need to do this. So. Because again, I've done shows, and so you know what? I was like, y', all, I'm doing the show. Y' all gonna come to my show. You gonna be my friend? And it's always just your friends. You know what I mean? And it's up to you with a microphone, and you're just like, yeah, yeah. Your friends go, girl. Yeah.

[A]

That was amazing.

[C]

You done how many. How many. How many plays have you gone to see in some black box theater? And you're like, oh, I gotta stay awake. Cause I'm real close to this stage. Ooh, that's my friend. I love my. Oh, Lord, why am I here? How many? Four hours, girl. Like, we've all. We've. We've been on both sides.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

So I have to put that context out there, because when you say, why didn't you think anybody was. Because it was coming from that place of like, I just need to get this out here. I just need to be doing something. I don't want this opportunity to pass me by that we're all stuck in the house again. You know, we can't do anything. And I don't want to be that person that was just like, I'm just waiting for this strike to end. I want to keep moving. Because we've all. We've been taught. We were taught when we went to nyu, they were. The thing that they drilled into us was work begets work. Work begets. So Just get out there. Just do something. Just go. Just one of my first voice teachers when I graduated from nyu. He was like, you keep acting like every audition is a moment. He was like, this is what you do for the rest of your life. He was like, so you need to get the backstage and you need to just go and audition for everything that's in the back. I don't care if it's for an 80 year old white man, just go. He said, because your audition needs to be like blowing your nose, like brushing your teeth. It just needs to be a muscle that you have and not this. Like it's an audition. And so I guess all of that is why I just thought, ain't nobody gonna watch. There's a million podcasts, you know what I'm saying? And we're not podcasters. And nobody wants to watch two actors, like, talk to each other about their life. Who wants to see that? I wanna see that. I thought it was just gonna be me and my friends, like normal, you know, so. And it did bite me in the butt. Cause I did talk about my mama. My mom was. My mama was mad at me. She was real mad at me.

[B]

It's happened to both of us.

[C]

Ooh, she was so mad at me.

[A]

Because when you're on screen, you get to portray a character and be in somebody else's interpretation of what a human being is doing and what their behaviors are. But when you're here, you say stuff and people go, hey, that's you. And not only do they do that. The thing that I love is the audience is so perceptive, they notice when you're a little bit off, when your energy's off, especially if they can see you. So there's really no way to hide. If you put enough hours on the screen. If you put enough hours on the screen, they know you and they'll start to tell you. Van didn't like that person. Van was this like, Van's pissed off and all of that stuff like that. So they know it's different. It's like, it's a different way of being. Especially since you guys aren't. You guys are a couple that we all know, but you like to keep things a little personal and private. So like, I wonder, what was that like, having conversations with people and letting them see into your relationship a little bit like that.

[C]

Well, I will say Sterling never met a privacy door that he didn't want to open.

[A]

Okay, so I'm wrong.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You're more private than he is.

[C]

He's an Aries. Oh, really? Oh, see, there you go. Yeah, he's very. My husband is. And I think that's what makes him such an incredible actor, is that there's no veil, there's no filter, there's no wall. Like, he's a very open person. And I think it takes people off guard a little bit because, you know, he's a very strong, you know, put together black man. And I think that there. A lot of people have the expectation that he's also going to be guarded. He's the least guard. And I think, again, I think that's what makes him such an incredible actor, because there's no guard between him and his emotions, his feelings, how he, you know, so he can really show up in the moment for the character, as with all of his emotional availability. And he's just like that, you know, he's like, we just put it out there. We just say whatever and let the chips fall as they may. What's the worst that could happen? That's, you know, he's very much that guy. And I'm very much like, when we first got married, this was years ago, we hadn't done anything of note, but I had our wedding record sealed. And he was like, who do you think you are, Diana Ross? And I was like, look, you never know. People are crazy. He was like, what people? Yeah, what people cares? And I was like, no, we're stealing it. It's nobody's business. He's like, don't nobody care about our business. And I was like, they will one day. They will one day.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, for sure. 20 years, you guys, Right? How are you this year?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

How are you celebrating? And what do you want for the next 20 years for you guys?

[C]

Oh, that is a wonderful question. Well, Michael might actually know. It's a surprise. I know, it's. He's surprising you. He's surprising me. Yeah. He asked me a long time ago. I threw him a surprise party for his 30th birthday. And he was like, girl. He was like, the jig was up. The minute, like, you decided to have the surprise party, he's like, I just been trying to pretend like I didn't know for the past three weeks. He was like, what in the world did you think? He was like, you can't sneak. He was like, somebody told me that I was as subtle as a rhinoceros. So there you go. I don't do surprises for him. He's much better at surprising me. And I actually like surprises.

[A]

Me, too.

[C]

And he doesn't like Surprises. So it works out. So I think there's a trip involved. There's some kind of trip that's gonna go somewhere. Yeah, he told me. He's like, I just want you to know we are going somewhere. You can't know where we're going. All of that, all of that is a surprise.

[B]

That's exciting.

[C]

So that's what we're doing.

[B]

And for the next 20 years.

[C]

And for the next 20 years, you know, I think we're, we're not empty nesters yet by any stretch of the imagination. But that's like very close to on the horizon. Because when you have kids it goes like that, right? And so we have a 14 year old, a freshman in high school who you actually cannot tell him that he's not grown. Like you can. Like the other day he was making something because he's just now learning to cook.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Okay. And I couldn't help.

[A]

I.

[C]

He's. He was right. I was hovering, but I was like, you're going to like blow us all up. Like, what are you doing? Like bruh, like. And he was like, I don't understand why you're just hovering over me. I was like, because you don't know how to cook and you need somebody to join.

[A]

I've got this.

[C]

I've done it before. So. So we're at that point, right. And I know the next couple years are going to fly by, so. And then we have a 10 year old and he's also, you know, that's just. It goes. So I think we're in this place where I think the next 20 years are gonna be about reconnecting to us again. And what are we without have the hands on day to day of raising children? And what is that gonna look like? And what's the best version of that that we can be.

[A]

I want to ask before we get you out of here, I want to ask you about. To me, what was the funniest moment of 2024? And it had to do with Sterling.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Now there was a junket where they were. Him and Jennifer Lopez were.

[B]

Look at Michael moving over.

[C]

I'm not saying I heard. Look at Michael. Let me get direct, Michael. I said we about to scrap. Honey, that's the most mild mannered publicist in the.

[A]

I'm not asking. I'm not asking in a way to bring up old stuff.

[C]

Okay. Okay. I'm going to ask you a question.

[A]

I trust you.

[B]

I trust you.

[A]

But I literally would, if Jeanie was here, I would just put this on the plate. For some reason, he started talking about French toast. Do you remember this?

[C]

I don't remember the French toast one.

[A]

Oh, okay. You know what? No question. Just, like, go and watch.

[C]

I remember the one where he was like, arroz con boy.

[A]

He just. For some reason. I don't know what. And he is. If you guys. My friend, a great friend of mine, wrote and directed a movie that. That Sterling was in. And the movie is called American Fiction. You guys know the movie. And when you watch that movie, Sterling is, like, hysterical in the film. Like, he's hysterical in the movie.

[C]

If you want to diagram a sentence.

[A]

Yeah. Like, he's just, like, ridiculously, like, funny in the movie. But whatever happened in that one thing where he starts going, oroz con pollos. And then he goes, there's a bread pudding. French toast hits hard. And I watch it. I watch it over and over and over again.

[C]

It's like he's disassociating.

[A]

He left the room.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

They were there to talk about Atlas.

[B]

Sure was.

[A]

And somebody said something. I want you guys to watch this clip. Sterling gets into food and leaves the room. She says, I'm Puerto Rican, so I didn't know that You're Puerto Rican.

[C]

Are you Puerto Rican?

[A]

Get out of here. And then from that moment, he just goes into his own world. And by the end of it, he's talking about, like, bread pudding, French toast, and how hard it hits and stuff like that. I watched it over and over and over again. Cause that's what I do. Something happens, and I just can't reorient myself to being in a situation, and I'll start singing a little song or whatever, and then I'll be like, oh, okay, I'm podcasting. Did you laugh?

[C]

Hysterically. I was in tears, and I was like, bruh.

[A]

The whole thing, bruh.

[C]

And then he had the nerves to come home and be like, oh. He calls me Bird. Oh, Bird. You're making a big deal out of nothing.

[A]

Nobody saw that.

[C]

What are you talking about, Bird?

[A]

I didn't do anything.

[C]

Oh, Bird. And I was like, you are. You have no idea.

[A]

I felt him in the moment. And the reason why I felt him in the moment, I felt him in the moment. Cause everybody made such a big deal about that. But I could just tell it was just wacky Aries energy.

[C]

I think people need to let black boys have wacky energy.

[A]

Just let us be wacky. Can we be wacky?

[C]

Y' all get to be wacky.

[B]

Just let me.

[A]

Can we be wacky?

[C]

Y' all get to be wacky.

[A]

We get to be wacky, too.

[C]

Yes. He gets to be wacky. And he is. He's very wacky. And one of the reasons why I was so glad about American Fiction was because I was like, people get to see that this is a huge part of who this man is. He's very wacky, and he will disassociate in a heartbeat if he is not in. And, you know, it was probably because whatever was going on in the moment wasn't terribly engaging right then. And normally Sterling can pull it together, but he did it to Michael on the red carpet. Remember Shallows? Oh, he had. I don't know what it was about that song. Remember the Star Is Born?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

He literally, when he saw that movie, he thought he was Bradley Cooper in that movie for a good two months. A good two months. And we were on the red carpet, and finally one day, he just. We're on the carpet, Somebody's interviewing us. And he was like, how they're lonely girl. That is so.

[A]

You see what I'm saying?

[C]

I'm sitting there like, you didn't join in? Well, because. No, you can't. You just have to, like. You know what I mean? I'm the Leo in this situation. I know at this point, I just have to kind of, like, be the cat in the room that's like, all right now, bruh.

[A]

Right?

[C]

I'm here to catch you if you go too far. Michael is, like, turning, like, all shades of red. It's like, it's just starting to climb, and he's like, what is he. And we just had to let him have his wacky moment.

[A]

Last thing I'll say is I always do this. Like, what's gonna happen? He sings Shallows on the red carpet. What's gonna happen? Nothing's gonna happen. Nothing's gonna happen. He's gonna.

[C]

We were concerned he was gonna urinate. Cause that's what happens in this movie.

[A]

That's a.

[C]

There was a threat. There was a threat of, like, maybe I'll just go and pee everywhere.

[A]

Score one for. Score one for Ryan. That's a. Like, That's a legitimate threat. Thank you for joining us on Higher Learning.

[B]

Thank you guys for having me.

[C]

Finding.

[B]

No, for sure. Where can everyone find you? Anything you want to promote?

[C]

Yeah, I'm on season six. I'm on episode six, season two of Paradise. I'm really proud. It's gonna be out probably next week, and I'm doing the companion podcast for Paradise.

[A]

It's really good.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

Thank You. And I'm actually really proud of it because we talked to some really incredible people. So if you need to process what's happening on I'm telling you, come. Come to the bosom of my podcast because we will take care of you over there.

[B]

Yeah. Because I can't talk to you because I'm like, tell me what happens next. Tell me now.

[C]

I'm telling you. Don't you. You want to see this unfold in real time. And I put real time. That's all I had to tell.

[A]

Oh, wow. Hints and secrets and tips and tricks.

[B]

Oh, thank you for being here.

[A]

Thank you for coming. Thank you so much.

[C]

I really appreciate it. I love being here.

[A]

I want to take time to do something real quick. I don't really get involved in direct political races that much, but I'm getting involved in one. It's a state tenant race in Louisiana. I wanted to tell you guys about a candidate named Ken Barnes who is running down there. Ken Barnes is running for state Senate, Louisiana's third state senate district. He is an awesome candidate. He's the type of candidate I think Louisiana needs right now, more progressive candidate. We wanted to have Ken on this podcast to talk a little bit about what's going on with his campaign, but things just got jumbled up. There's so much news happening and all of that schedules couldn't match. The election is on Saturday. So if you can hear my voice and you're in Louisiana, it doesn't matter. Get out there and vote for Ken Barnes. Also, they have. They still are raising funds to be able to stretch this out because after he gets into this runoff, it's going to need more fun. So Ken Barnes for Senate. The site is just type in Ken Barnes, K E N N for Senate, and there will be a fundraising link there. You can give as much money as you possibly can if you feel so inclined to do that. Okay. You don't get anything. I'm not getting any election laws or anything like that, but any type of candidate that is a worthwhile candidate in Louisiana, I will stand behind them. And as it says here, community advocate, proven leadership for everything for the neighborhood. Kim Barnes down there in Louisiana, I want to give him a shout out. So thank you, guys. All right, that's it. No more podcasts. We do want to say one thing. We are going to have Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. There's an interview we're going to have with Josh Shapiro, doing it tomorrow, Thursday. Now, as we're recording this, this interview probably is going to come out separately. We haven't decided, but it will be out before the weekend. And one of the things we'll have to talk to Josh Shapiro about, as he has been the target of an attack that many people believe was motivated by either political animus or anti Semitism, is that there was a horrific attempted attack on Temple Israel Synagogue in West Bloomfield. Shots were fired. Apparently a car crash is happening as we're recording a car crash into a synagogue. And then the gunman got out of the car and opened fire. We try to have difficult conversations on this podcast all the time about geopolitics, about how we feel about all kinds of different things. I don't want there to be one shred, one shred of doubt that Rachel and I, if it's okay, understand the threat of antisemitism, the rise in antisemitism, and the vulnerability that a lot of Jewish people worldwide feel walking around right now. The conversations that we have about Israel, the genocide in Gaza, all of those things, those are difficult conversations sometimes for people to have culturally, and I maintain complete political and what I believe to be moral consistency on that. But that in no way, in no way downplays a real threat on the safety of Jewish people. And that threat exists now, and it's been with us for a very, very long time. So there is in no way from me going to be any type of downplaying of the existential threat that Jewish people in this country and worldwide are facing at this time. We've seen these attacks in the past couple of years get a lot worse, but we saw them before October 7th. We'll talk more about that to the governor. I think. I think he'll want to talk about that.

[B]

I think so, too.

[A]

But we wanted to hold space for it before we got off of the podcast. Okay, take them. Caps off. Glass.

[C]

I'm learning.

[A]

I'm van life.

[B]

And J.R. i'm Rachel.