Melania the "Trophy Wife," Nicki’s MAGA Turn, and Black Prestige Media With Ashley Allison

Summary

Podcast Summary: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: “Melania the ‘Trophy Wife,’ Nicki’s MAGA Turn, and Black Prestige Media With Ashley Allison
Date: January 30, 2026
Host: The Ringer
Guests: Ashley Allison

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay delve into timely issues at the intersection of Black culture, politics, and media. Highlights include:

• A spirited discussion about the cultural legacies of Black communities in the U.S., sparked by reflections on the Bay Area and the Black Panthers.
• Sharp critiques of Melania Trump’s new biopic and the broader symbolism of her public persona.
• A nuanced breakdown of Nicki Minaj’s public endorsement of Donald Trump and what it signals about hip-hop’s evolving relationship with political accountability.
• A powerful interview with Ashley Allison, new owner of The Root, on the responsibilities and future of Black prestige media, and the challenges faced by political progressives.

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Key Discussion Points & Segments

1. The Influence of Regional Black Culture (00:00-14:52)

• Van and Rachel open by reminiscing about the Bay Area’s singular role in American Blackness, emphasizing how regional Black cultures have uniquely shaped national identity.
  • Van shares how discussions around the Black Panthers reignited his respect for the Bay and its cosmopolitan-yet-grounded activist roots.
  • Quote (Van, 04:07): “There’s something about the Black Panthers that’s very specific to the bay ... they were cosmopolitan in a way, in their revolution but still grounded in the community.”
• They explore how the Black Panthers’ legacy is currently being contested, referencing controversies involving figures like Paul Birdsong and the Black Lion movement.
  • Rachel emphasizes the need for more education around the Panthers, suggesting documentaries and books for those unfamiliar.
  • Van: “Understand the intentionality that the American government used to pull apart this organization ... It’s important to know what you’re supporting.” (13:04)
• The hosts lament the growing homogeneity of Black experience, celebrating the beauty of local cultures in places like South Florida, Louisiana, Atlanta, Chicago, Harlem, etc.

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2. Melania Trump, "Trophy Wife" Status, and Media Symbolism (15:53-28:40)

Melania’s Biopic and the Ratner Factor (16:03)

• Rachel’s sharp skepticism about Melania’s new biopic and its director, Brett Ratner.
  • Hollywoood “Me Too” histories and Ratner’s re-emergence are discussed.
  • Quote (Rachel, 18:19): “He has not done anything until this movie. He’s got Epstein ties. He’s been living in Israel. He’s come back because he thinks this is going to be his entrance back into the industry. If this doesn’t say everything about the Trump administration...”
  • Van suggests a possible “quid pro quo” regarding Trump’s interest in Rush Hour 4 and Ratner’s involvement.
• Deeper critique of Melania as First Lady:
  • Van frames her as emblematic of the erosion of quality in the American First Family.
  • Quote (Van, 22:12): “Melania Trump is a trophy wife ... The only thing that matters is how pretty she is ... she is another acquisition. The thing that he’s being judged on is how she looks.”
  • Comparison to previous First Ladies (Michelle Obama, Hillary Clinton, Laura Bush), who were “accomplished, inspiring women.”
  • Rachel reinforces that Melania never sought a public-facing, substantive role.

Tech, Oligarchs, and the Administration (26:25)

• Van asserts that the financing of Melania’s film was a “payoff from Bezos and Amazon to the Trump administration,” reflecting on the dangerous level of influence held by tech elites.

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3. Nicki Minaj’s MAGA Turn and the State of Hip Hop (28:40-53:24)

Nicki’s Move & Political Influence (29:01)

• Nicki’s endorsement of Trump is examined through her recent public statements and social media.
  • Earlier pro-immigrant and anti-family separation stances (2018) are contrasted with her current MAGA support.
  • Rachel: “I don’t believe that Nicki really has any influence... I don’t believe this is effective. Do you?” (32:15)
• Van draws parallels to Kanye West’s pro-Trump arc, suggesting celebrities risk confining themselves to the “chitlin circuit” of right-wing celebrity.
  • Quote (Van, 34:57): “When you pick that side and you are as committed to it as some of these celebrities are, everything that happens over there... it’s very hard to come back.”
  • Nicki’s “mainstream” career is believed to be over for certain audiences but may continue in right-wing circles.
  • Rachel ponders whether this shift is gendered, given Kanye’s partial comeback versus Nicki’s likely path.

Hip Hop’s Attention to Community vs. Capital (41:35)

• Van and Rachel lament a perceived decline in political and community accountability in hip-hop:
  • Earlier eras held power to account (e.g., Ice Cube, “Fuck the Police”), while today’s stars are driven primarily by profit.
  • Quote (Van, 47:39): “When you chase the bag, solely and specifically, the problem is you never know where the bag is going to take you... The bag isn’t a good father, the bag isn’t a good mother, the bag isn’t a good OG.”
• Rachel raises how hip hop’s audience shift (now largely non-Black) may have changed content focus; Van contends that white audiences have long been significant consumers, but prior conversations emphasized accountability to the Black community.
• Both express disappointment in hip hop’s silence on issues like Black Lives Matter and exploitative personalities/platforms.

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4. Immigration, ICE, and Political Reform Battles (53:24-75:51)

• Live reaction to breaking news: the Senate blocks DHS funding, as Democrats hold out for reforms to ICE and police practices.
  • Rachel is adamant that proposed reforms (e.g., banning masks, body cams) are not enough to fix systems she claims are “rotten to the core.”
  • Quote (Rachel, 58:24): “It is so rotten to its core from the top to the bottom that to me this isn’t enough.”
• The discussion expands into the inadequacy of “reform,” with Van highlighting that many American systems (particularly policing and immigration enforcement) need full reconstruction, not incremental reform.

Privilege, Activism, & the Bachelor Example (65:32-75:51)

• Rachel describes organizing a video with fellow Bachelor alumni calling to abolish ICE and the uncomfortable reality that most white participants declined to join, exposing issues of privilege and selective empathy.
  • Quote (Rachel, 69:08): “You are being willfully ignorant, or you just don’t give a fuck... The reason that you are able to do that is your privilege.”
• Both hosts wrestle with the question of friendship with those who “do nothing” in the face of injustice.
  • Van: “It’s hard to respect people who don’t respect humanity... If you can be friends with someone who sees somebody in trouble and just doesn’t care... that’s difficult.” (75:51)

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5. Interview: Ashley Allison on Black Prestige Media & Political Challenges (79:43-131:15)

On Owning and Rebuilding The Root (83:01)

• Ashley Allison details her path to acquiring The Root, the significance of Black ownership, and her vision to revitalize its political and cultural impact.
  • Quote (Ashley, 84:38): “I feel like a great weight and responsibility to tell these stories through a Black lens and get it right. Because we are in a watershed moment... people will look back at this moment and say, what did you do?”
• Traces The Root’s ownership history and her plan to return to original purposes: authentic Black perspective, written and video content, and the prestige of lists like the Root 100.

Is Prestige Black Media Dead? (86:19)

• Van asks whether “prestige” Black media—the kind that once set cultural standards (Ebony, Jet, Essence)—has faded.
  • Ashley argues the trend reflects a broader change in media, with social platforms democratizing information and disrupting the authority of single cultural gatekeepers.
  • Quote (Ashley, 88:11): “Social media has really democratized how people get their information... do people want one standard? The masses seem to be saying no.”
  • Despite fragmentation, The Root still garners 12 million unique visitors per month, showing an appetite for trusted Black-led news.

Politics, the Democratic Party, and Lessons from 2024 (90:11)

• Kamala Harris’s loss (90:11): Ashley highlights structural challenges, tough portfolios (immigration, voting rights), and double standards for Black women. She contends that political candidacy conversations must confront intersectional bias.
• Within the Democratic Party: All agree Democrats constantly struggle with identity, North Star values, and effective communication.
  • Ashley: “If you don’t actually know what your North Star is, to then go to war... it makes it hard.” (101:10)
  • Van: Democratic leadership excels at “harm reduction” but lacks a vision of empowerment that voters can rally behind.
• Corporate Capture & Political Accountability: Van decries “corporate capture” hobbling popular policies like universal healthcare and higher wages.
  • Ashley cautions not to diminish the potential influence of a well-organized public, referencing recent grassroots activism in Minneapolis.

On Engaging Opposing Perspectives in Media (126:21)

• Ashley defends the role of having Republican commentators like Scott Jennings on CNN panels.
  • Quote (Ashley, 127:20): “If you become blind to a perspective of people, how can you ever engage them? How can you ever persuade them?... it makes me stronger and clearer in what I am fighting for.”

Quick Takes: Inspirations and Wellness (128:40-131:02)

• Ashley’s personal influences: reading the Bible for deeper faith-based perspective, Buddhist self-help practices for coping with collective pain, and the centrality of being in community.

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6. Ray J’s Health and Reflections on Life (131:16-137:41)

• Van reacts to news of Ray J’s reported heart condition, connecting it to his own father’s struggle with heart failure.
  • Quote (Van, 133:55): “If Ray J is actually in heart failure and in the early stages of CHF or some other related type of deal, then it’s going to take a complete reorganization of his life to extend his time on Earth.”
• Van shares an emotional warning: “Don’t ever snatch death away from life. You owe your family memories... Don’t ever say [it’s over].” (134:44)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Van, on the Black Panthers and the Bay (04:07): “There’s something about the Black Panthers that’s very specific to the bay... they were cosmopolitan in their revolution, but still grounded in the community.”
• Rachel, on Melania’s biopic (18:19): “[Ratner] has not done anything until this movie. He’s got Epstein ties... If this doesn’t say everything about the Trump administration...”
• Van, on Melania and First Ladies (22:12): "Melania Trump is a trophy wife... she is another acquisition. The thing he’s being judged on is how she looks."
• Van, on hip hop’s evolution (47:39): “When you chase the bag, solely... you never know where the bag is going to take you... the bag isn’t a good father, the bag isn’t a good mother, the bag isn’t a good OG.”
• Rachel, on privilege (69:08): “You are being willfully ignorant, or you just don’t give a fuck... The reason that you are able to do that is your privilege.”
• Ashley Allison, on media ownership (84:38): “I feel like a great weight and responsibility to tell these stories through a Black lens and get it right.”
• Ashley, on party values (101:10): “If you don’t actually know what your North Star is... it makes it hard.”
• Van, on Democratic vision (107:51): "You have to tell people there are rights you have. This world should exist where you have housing. This world should exist where you have health care."
• Van, on Ray J’s health (134:44): “Don’t ever snatch death away from life. You owe your family memories... Don’t ever say [it’s over].”

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Conclusion

This wide-ranging episode of Higher Learning explores the intersection of Black culture, politics, celebrity, and the enduring quest for both individual and collective agency. The hosts balance personal stories, sharp critique, and hope for change—always with their trademark humor and forceful honesty. The interview with Ashley Allison offers a rare inside look at both the struggles and hopes of Black-led, progressive media and movement leadership in 2026.

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Key Timestamps

• Bay Area/Black Panther Legacy – 00:00–14:52
• Melania Trump, Trophy Wife Discourse – 15:53–28:40
• Nicki Minaj’s MAGA Shift & Hip Hop Accountability – 28:40–53:24
• ICE Funding Reforms & Activism Privilege – 53:24–75:51
• Ashley Allison Interview: Black Media & Dem Party Challenges – 79:43–131:15
• Reflections on Ray J’s Health & Life Lessons – 131:16–137:41

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For more: visit The Root, follow Higher Learning, and keep the conversation going.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on.

[B]

It's Ivan Laken Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsey.

[A]

I think I like the Bay.

[C]

Why?

[A]

I like the Bay a lot.

[B]

Why?

[A]

You know what I'm talking about. The Bay.

[C]

San Francisco. Well, Bay area.

[A]

The Bay area. The whole area. San Francisco, Oakland, Vallejo.

[C]

Have you even been up there a lot?

[A]

I used to go up there a lot, but I. I haven't been talking about the Bay. Let me tell you what happened with the Bay, okay? Starting off with the bay here. First of all, like, comment, subscribe, share. Higher learning is on the upswing, but it'll swing up more when you guys share it to more people. Share it around. Also, vote naacp. We're going to start putting out the links and stuff like that. Vote for the NAACP award. Vote, vote, vote, vote, vote, vote, vote. Do it, please. We appreciate you guys. We love you guys. The Bay.

[B]

The Bay.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And you're not even going to Super Bowl.

[A]

I'm not.

[C]

So you don't love it that much.

[A]

Well, I got to stay here because the AFCO Awards.

[C]

Oh, yes.

[A]

And so shout out to Gil Robertson from the AFCO Awards. We were supposed to be producing.

[C]

I was already going.

[A]

You said fuck them.

[C]

I did not. I wrote Gil. I told him I was going to be out of town.

[A]

Gil hit me. Gil was like, who she thinks she is. We wanted her to be a presenter at the black award show. Who does she think she is?

[C]

They told me at the last minute. I really would have loved to such an honor to be asked. Which is what I told Gil.

[A]

Yeah. Gil is like one of the most important, important men in Hollywood. Whatever Gil wants, we'll do it. The bay.

[C]

The Bay.

[A]

So there's one person who ruined the Bay for me.

[C]

Okay, so it's ruined now.

[A]

No, it's not ruined, is the point. There's a guy named Graham Drake, okay? Graham Drake. So brilliant, biracial brother from the bay, where they are, let's face it, a lot of biracials up there.

[C]

There are actually. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a lot of biracials up there. So we used to be on the threads. Shout out to all the Gmail threads. Back in the day, we had Gmail threads. We had Gmail thread where we would debate issues. It was a bunch of lawyers on this thread. It was Jabril. It was Lauren Bell who went on to become a U.S. attorney. Jim John, okay? These guys are Nigerians.

[C]

Nice.

[A]

Jabril. And the people that he went to. We had Hans Metcalf on There. One of those Hans, whatever it was Hans was on there. All of these people were people that Jabril went to Stanford with. There were all these Ivy League. I went to Harvard. I went to Duke. And we all debate. All we would do is debate. And Graham would go so hard for Oakland, and he would go hard for the Bay. He would be like, the Bay influenced everything that ever happened. He'd be like, you ever eat ice cream before that came from the Bay. You ever rode on a bike? That's the Bay.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

You ever dance? Sing?

[B]

You ever.

[A]

You ever shout? You ever have sex? The BA Invented all of that. So after a while, he kind of turned me off of the bae. Everything had to do. What?

[C]

You don't say he did because he kind of sounds familiar.

[A]

Like, ooh. Like, what did I do? Tell me how I do that. Because this is what happens on higher learning.

[C]

Baton Rouge, Louisiana, Gardier Lane. Why do I even know Guardier?

[B]

Why do I.

[C]

Is that how you say it?

[A]

Okay, yes.

[C]

Why do I even know that this is fair? I'm from Baton Rouge. I'm telling you. You guys don't. This is where I came from. Guard's ear Lane. Gino knows. Ryan knows.

[B]

McKinley High School. Shut up.

[A]

Keep it going.

[C]

Hey, hey, hey.

[A]

See how it gets turned around on me?

[C]

I'm just saying it sounds familiar, but go ahead.

[A]

That's a fair point. Okay, so this kind of. Maybe this turned me off of basically the bait. Like, you'd say something and Grant would be like, yeah, they can't fuck with Skyline High. Oakland Tech. I'd be like, whatever. But I have to be honest, Man Grammar was right about the influence of the Bay and about what the Bay has meant to overall culture and to black culture and to the world. You know why I'm into this now?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What brought you here?

[A]

So I had a conversation about the Black Panthers because if you guys aren't following, what happened? Drama with Paul Birdsong in Philadelphia and the Black Panthers. The. Some of the original Panthers.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And some of the people who Birdsong thought that he had permission from to call himself a Black Panther and to continue on in the tradition of the Black Panthers. That's all gone to shit now.

[C]

He ain't a Black Panther no more.

[A]

He's a Black Lion. Changed the name. Now, listen, we'll have more in depth and robust discussion around that later. I hope to get an interview with Paul Birdsong. I saw that. Queens Flip. Shout out to Queen's Flip. Queens Flip went to Philly and spoke with Paul Birdsong. I cannot wait to watch that, because I think that's going to be very important to see Birdsong and his Black lion movement and what they really stand for, you know, where they are. But this made me go back and re examine my understanding of the Black Panthers. Okay, reread Soul on Ice, which Cleaver wrote before he joined the Black Panthers, but still talk about Huey, Bobby, Elaine Brown, Kathryn Cleaver, all of the Panthers that were involved, Fred Hampton, all of that stuff. And then going back and, you know, from when they sold Miles little red book to them becoming the Panthers who were in the streets in terms of, like, the police patrols that they went on and that onto the breakfast program when there was a split, when there was a faction. There's something about the Black Panthers that's very specific to the bay and how there was a black educated class, an intelligentsia, a cultural strength of the black person from the bay in the way that they looked at the world, how they were cosmopolitan in a way, in their revolution, but still grounded in the community, very grounded in the community, very grounded in what they thought, and then even that Huey is part of the great migration from. Where was Huey born? Monroe, Louisiana.

[C]

Oh, was he really?

[A]

Absolutely. So that connection to Louisiana, to the people of the south, that went up there and formed this great culture up there. By the end of my examination of the Black Panthers, I was back on my Mac Dre. Okay? I was back on my Mac Trace. I was back because it was. It just told the whole story. I just kept with the story. I kept with the story of the panthers into the 70s. And then some of the stuff that started to happen in the bay in terms of some of the culture around, some of the pimping and the pandering once those movements were gone into the. Into the night by. By the end of it, I was on my sugar T be legit to click E40 Mac Dre, what you listen.

[C]

To this morning coming in, man, I.

[A]

Was listening to Sprinkle Me.

[C]

Oh, well, I mean, tell me when to go.

[A]

And then when I put that into the thing, the motto came on, and then that ruined the vibe. It's a good song. It's a good song. It's like. It's. It's a good song. But, like, I just want to say, man, I don't want Graham to hear this and think that, you know, I want him to hit me up and continuously talking about the bay and all of that stuff like that, you know, but he was kind of right, man. All of these Pockets.

[C]

I hope Graham's listening to this.

[A]

All of these pockets of American blackness, there's been. Last thing I'll say about this, we've sort of homogenized our experience, and that's good. It's good for us to have a oneness. But man, getting to the specific culture of south Florida, the specific culture of. Of south Louisiana, I can't say much about north Louisiana. The state kind of dies. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[C]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Now, you know, my people are from the northern side. Don't do that.

[A]

Makes a lot of sense.

[C]

Oh, really? Does it make a lot of sense?

[A]

It's like that. That.

[C]

What kind of sense? Go ahead.

[A]

It's a lot of sense.

[C]

Go ahead.

[A]

Y' all probably put hot dogs in the gumbo.

[C]

No, I don't. Do I actually.

[A]

Big chunks.

[C]

That's disgusting.

[A]

Undercooked. Ok.

[C]

They don't really make gumbo like that up north. That's more of a southern Louisiana thing. It's a different culture. It's a different.

[A]

You just made my point.

[C]

But I'm saying it's a different. It's a different Louisiana culture. No, no, no, you just made my point. You have your culture. That doesn mean things die. It's just a different culture.

[A]

The culture that I grew up. The tradition in Louisiana that I.

[B]

We're back in.

[A]

You just made my point. They don't make gumbo up there. That's what you said.

[C]

Yeah, it's a different culture.

[A]

I don't. I don't respect it. That's the problem.

[C]

Well, I think that means you don't respect me.

[A]

That's not true. Some people see.

[B]

But see Dallas, so different.

[C]

Dallas, Dallas, Houston. Not the same.

[A]

Oh, don't get me started on Chicago. I'm obsessed with the black culture in these places, like Atlanta, Chicago, Harlem, these rich areas of black people doing nate black things. Chicago don't even have hoods. They got kingdoms. There was so much organization there and stuff like that. All of these people that took their own cultures and made it into this beautiful thing. Their own inspirations. God damn it. It exists everywhere. It exists in the bay, exists in la.

[B]

Yeah, it exists everywhere.

[A]

Name a place we don't talk about for black culture, for beautiful black people.

[C]

You know what one place is like St. Louis.

[A]

Oh, hell no. We definitely talk about that.

[C]

Not really.

[A]

We should. More.

[C]

Yeah, we don't really talk. I mean, we kind of talk about the dmv, but not really.

[A]

Oh, come on. The dmv. We definitely talk about them, but do.

[C]

We Talk about the culture.

[A]

They got Kevin Dor.

[C]

We talk. We talk about. We talk about the cult. We don't talk about the culture. We just talk about, like, what's happening. That's what I'm saying. We don't really get into that.

[A]

The DMV is one of the richest black cultures that exists. They know what's going on. I feel like what I'm thinking about is more places. Like, if you.

[C]

I want to talk Nashville. Yeah, Nashville has. They call it Cashville. Like, they have a whole culture there.

[A]

Young buck. Interesting. If you like a. If you're a black person and you.

[C]

From, like, Portland, what's the culture?

[A]

Well, reach out to us. Like if you're from Boise, Idaho, what y' all doing? The 15 of y', all that's hanging out. Like, what if. If you're, you know, in places that we. We don't know what's going on. What about the black people in Phoenix? Phoenix. What happens in Phoenix or where.

[C]

There's a lot. And we don't talk about, like, Connecticut. Connecticut has a lot of black people.

[A]

Is that true?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. That's what happened to Aaron Hernandez.

[C]

Connecticut has a lot of black people.

[A]

Start hanging out with them. Okay. Yeah. But, you know, I just got into the whole thing. You know, just before we move on, you guys. A lot of talk about the Black Panthers. We touched on it very briefly. Let me tell you. Birdsong and the Black lion movement and what they're doing. Very important to understand what it is that you are supporting. So I think that they are going to be able to either make the case to people about what their missions, goals and aims are, or people will. Will see through it. I believe that a lot of this divisiveness is pathetic, honestly. I'm not going to tell anybody how they should utilize their legacy. I'm not going to tell.

[C]

I would love for both because I want to understand why it's such a problem. So I would like. And I have not done any deep research into it by any means. I've just, you know, like, seen it at a surface level. But I would love to bring somebody not. They don't have to come on together because I'm not. We don't. I'm not trying to do all of that, but to understand both so, like, people can get, like, a full context of what's happening.

[A]

Yeah, I think that makes sense. I think I understand the protection of the legacy. I do. I also think that for a lot of us, some of the conversations that I've been hearing aren't useful. The conversations that in a perfect world, or even in a good one, the conversation would be around educating younger people who want to take up the tradition of the Black Panthers into some of the things that the government did to fracture that organization and pull it apart, how they will be attacked, what some of the pitfalls would be. And even in that mentoring, in that brotherhood, that fellowship, you would be able to kind of see whether or not younger folk were doing the things that they are doing for the right reasons. So I'm excited about new movements yet led by younger people. And I am always fascinated about some of the factions that exist, why we are just so hard on one another and, and all of that. But the story of the Black Panthers specifically. I really encourage you guys, even if you don't have time for the scholarship, if you don't want to read a book, if you don't want to do any of that stuff, which sounds like ridiculous to even say, watch a couple of docs. Understand the intentionality that the American government used to pull apart this organization, understand some of the. The issues that were being had inside of the Panthers, some of the revolutionary mindsets and how they dealt with the treatment of women inside the organization, some of the things that they overcame. Just really understand what the government was willing to do to make sure that you did not look at your society in a different way. I don't know. I think people may. There was infighting and all of that stuff, like there was purpose in assassinating, jailing and destroying this group of black nationalists and internationalists that wanted to stand up for their own communities in Oakland. By the way, in Oakland, in the Bay goes right.

[B]

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[A]

How should we start the show? Today. What do you. What should we do now that we went. That was kind of. I apologize, guys. Was off the top of my brain, like. But like what? Oh, you want to talk about Milani? Melania Trump. Did you see it? Are you going to see it?

[C]

It has not come out yet. It comes out.

[A]

Does it come out?

[C]

Well, as they'll be listening to it, it'll be out. Comes out Friday.

[A]

You want to check it out?

[C]

I will not.

[A]

Why don't you go see it?

[C]

Why would I?

[A]

Because you support women.

[C]

I do support women.

[A]

No, you don't.

[C]

I do support women, but it doesn't mean that I have to support Melania.

[A]

I'm going to see it.

[C]

You should, because I know your curiosity is getting the best of you, but you're going to like the idea of buying a ticket that contributes to Melania Trump, the administration, whatever it is they're trying to do here. I'm not doing it.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not going to go watch it in the theater, but I will watch it.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

There's this app, bootleg shit.

[C]

Okay. It's funny because Melania is doing a press tour, and I feel like it's the most that we've gotten from Melania. You know, usually, like, we're just told about her or what she's doing or if she is giving a speech, she's stealing somebody else's words. We don't hear a lot from her. She's doing the Press Store. Have you seen it?

[A]

No.

[C]

There's nothing shocking as I'm about to say this. I'm sure this is shocking to you. There's nothing interesting, riveting. I cannot find one ounce in me to care anything about Melania Trump. I saw a clip of her on Fox News. They were asking her, what's your favorite time of the day? You can't find one other question. You can't promote Melania in any other way. That lets me know that there's nothing there. Now, I might be interested in her Persona prior to getting with Trump or how she got like that might be, you know, a little salacious and interesting, but her as a First lady, it's following her. Her first. The 20 days, I guess, leading up to her second term in the White House.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Who's directing it? Do you know who's directing it?

[A]

Who's directing it?

[C]

Brett Ratner.

[A]

Ah.

[C]

Now, if that doesn't tell you everything you need to know, guys, Brett Ratner, big Hollywood producer. Was he a director, too?

[A]

Yeah, he was the man.

[C]

Producer. Director.

[A]

Rush Hour movies, guys. Start. Know where guys start. Hip hop.

[C]

Hip hop. Music videos.

[A]

Music videos.

[C]

Has not directed anything since 2014. Why?

[A]

Me too.

[C]

Me too. Women came together. Multiple women like Olivia Mun accused him of sexual assault and harassment. He has not done anything until this movie. He's got Epstein ties. He's been living in Israel. He's come back because he thinks this is going to be his entrance back, I guess, into the industry. If this doesn't say everything about the Trump administration, that the person who Melania says this is a man who could really see her vision. That's why she picked him. Yeah, he's a predator. Now, of course, he denies it all. I have to say that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But he's a predator. That's the director.

[A]

He'll be back. Interesting thing about.

[C]

Oh, he'll be back after this.

[A]

Yeah, he'll be back. Do you know why?

[C]

Why?

[A]

Because I always already believe that there was a quid pro quo for this. Something happened to me, didn't pay attention to it. What movie did President Trump demand that Paramount put into production? Guys, remember this? Who can answer this question? Bernard?

[C]

Oh, Rush Hour four.

[A]

Rush Hour four.

[C]

Rush Hour four. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[A]

Who directed those movies?

[C]

Yes, yes, yes. And did Paramount agree to it?

[B]

Right, yeah.

[A]

Brett Ratner directed those movies. So.

[C]

So he's gonna be wanted. So he's gonna be two and done.

[A]

Two and done. Whatever. I don't know how that works with what's going on at Skydance and all of that stuff like that, but I do know that President Trump said, hey, Rush Hour is one of my favorite movie franchises. He then commanded his vassals at CBS and Paramount to put Rush Hour 4 into production. And. And then Rush Hour 4 was put into production or at least greenlit in some sort of way. Who knows if that movie ever sees the light of day? If it does see the light of day, I would assume that Brett Ratner would direct the movie. And if he is directing the movie, the question is, is it, you know, payback or whatever? Oh, it's shooting this summer in Saudi Arabia and China. $100 million plus budget. I don't know if anyone had asked for Rush Hour 4, but it's happening now. I. I bet you that Brett Ratner is some way either directing or look that up. Whether or not he's directing, attached to direct, if he's producing. What's going on with Brett Radner? Insofar as this, I have thoughts about Melania. Before we move on, do you know how we talk about the sort of the degrading of the American leader. Melania actually represents the sort of degrading or the eroding of the quality of not just the leader, but the first lady as well. You can see there's connective tissue between Melania Trump and Donald Trump insofar as them being the first family. Tell you what I mean. So if you look at the two first ladies prior to Melania Trump, you had Hillary Clinton and you had Michelle Obama. Now we can talk about Hillary Clinton as much as we want.

[C]

Laura Bush.

[A]

Laura Bush before that. Right. So I wanted to talk about the Democrats, but let's put Laura in there. No, no, it's my fault. So let's put Laura in there. Let's say Hillary, Laura and then Michelle Obama. If you look at all three of those ladies, Laura, Bush, educator. Yeah, right. Accomplished lady. Hillary Clinton. For all of the Hillary Clinton shit that we can talk about, for all of the stuff that we don't like. And the Clintons, to me, are mascots for the type of neoliberal, centralized, centrist Democrats that I've come to despise. Right. It's just a fact. I'm sorry. I know that pisses you guys off. Pinko socialist talk from Van. And then you obviously have Michelle Obama. You have three people that in American society, you would have to connect yourself with ladies like this in order to be taken seriously as a president. In order to be taken seriously as a president, you'd have to connect yourself with women who were accomplished, women who inspiring. Were inspiring. I want to be very clear on this. Not making value judgments. I'm not making value judgments about how people live their lives. I'm not. But Melania Trump is a trophy wife. And a trophy wife comes from a part of American society where the only thing that matters about your wife is how pretty she is. It's like what's legitimately on the outside. It's the only thing that matters for Donald Trump when he was walking into a room. That's why you have to complete. You have to trade them in and get a new one every now and again. For Donald Trump, when he's walking into a room, the way he's being judged by the rest of the guys in the room, it's not on the capability of the woman that is at his right or his left. That's not what that's about. Because she's another thing. She is another acquisition. The thing that he's being judged on is how she looks, of course, is how beautiful she is. Even the story of I met her in this Eastern bloc country brought her over here. Look how amazing she looks. Look at all of that stuff. That's the thing that's the most important thing. And so if you are searching for something more in Melania Trump to make a documentary about, it's probably going to be difficult to find it, because that's not what Donald Trump was looking for when he chose Melania Trump. What he was looking for when he chose her was somebody that he can bring into a room with the rest of the Wall street guys and go, look how crazy she look. Right? Look how. What this thing is when I kind of bring this back to what we're talking about in our leaders, is that for Barack Obama, George Bush, even Bill Clinton, for somebody who wanted to lead, there had to be calculation in the person that you chose, somebody that was going to be somebody that you could invest into, that could invest in you, that made an American family that looked like they were worthy of the perch of the White House. And I'm not saying that's why these men married these women. I'm saying that these men took themselves, themselves seriously in terms of their careers. Even George W. Bush, and that's the type of women that they ended up choosing. Donald Trump made a transactional choice when he married her, in my opinion, and now she's up there and it's not shit to her. There's nothing to it, and it's all. And it also kind of reflects, I'm sorry if this is unfair to people or if this is uncomfortable people that I'm commenting on a woman like this. It also reflects the superficial nature in which Donald Trump has lived his life the entire time he's been in the public eye.

[C]

I don't think you're talking down. I think that you actually said that very well. It's very true. Melania Trump. You could make an argument that as an educator, with Laura Bush and the path that Hillary Clinton took in law and policy and politics, and same with Michelle Obama, that they all had careers that was aspiring them to be public speakers, to speak in front of people. There's a presence there. But Melania Trump was allegedly a model, however you wanna call that. I guess we're being very general in the term modeling or with the term modeling career. But that was never her goal. To be front facing in front of a camera, speaking, to be silent, to be seen, not necessarily heard from. I don't think that that's wrong to say. I think that that is the career choice that she made. And you could say that as well as who she chose to marry. So doing a whole film on her, I mean like 20 days or her doing a press tour where there's not much to her and she's literally the least interesting person I've ever seen in front of camera.

[A]

$70 million. So a $40 million budget and then a $35 million marketing. Marketing budget. We'll see if that. But look, that entire deal from Amazon, just to be fair, that was a payoff from Bezos and Amazon to the Trump administration. All of your tech oligarch gods, all of your people that make all of this stuff and we use it all and you know, some of the stuff we needed more than others, all of them got right in line and right in bed with the President and all of his stuff. And that's why I hope that there is significant action to reduce that group of people. Your technocrat oligarch, Tim Cook, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk class. I really hope that there's something that we can do to put the handcuffs on just how much influence they have on American and world culture moving forward.

[C]

I can't see that put.

[A]

Well, we'll see. We'll see who has the balls to do it. We'll see if anybody has the political will and the balls to do it.

[C]

We'll see. I just also want to say, and I know we know this, that Trump only cares about Trump. But man, you don't care about your wife cuz this, you setting her up for failure. This is a, this is, I know the, just I get the transaction between Amazon, Jeff Bezos and you know, like him to Trump, but doing it through a Melania film. You really don't care about your wife.

[A]

This is, I don't think that Trump would know the difference. I don't think he has any taste.

[C]

No, I, I, he would.

[A]

I think that a lot of times when Trump says I think this thing is actually good Trump, he actually believes it.

[C]

I don't think he, and maybe, maybe they're living in a bubble. I mean he, I, you know, not to throw out the term narcissist, but I do think that he is very self serving and only cares about things himself. I'm saying this highlights it even more because you really don't realize how you're setting up your wife to look to be embarrassed. That's what this is right now. Every headline is embarrassing. Whether it's a press tour, whether it's ticket sales, whether it's a country saying we're not even gonna show this film. Here you are Setting your. Like, it's. It's actually really sad for her. Not that I feel sorry for her, it's just sad.

[A]

I like her. I think she's. Think she's got it going on.

[C]

Wait, what?

[A]

Nothing. That was said under my breath. Nicki Minaj is back. She's. Donnie, Donnie, you. You know what's going on here.

[B]

You said it. She.

[A]

I mean, she didn't go away.

[B]

She just reappeared at a U.S. treasury event in D.C. this was yesterday. Two days. Let's. Let's listen to what she had to say.

[C]

Hello?

[B]

Well, I don't know what to say, but I will say that I am probably the president's number one fan and that's not going to change. And the hate or whatever people have to say, it does not affect me at all.

[C]

It actually motivates me to support him more and it's going to motivate all.

[B]

Of us to support him more. We're not going to let them get away with bullying him. And, you know, the smear campaigns, it's.

[C]

Not going to work.

[B]

Okay? He has a lot of force behind him and God is protecting him. Amen.

[C]

She had to even laugh. She had to even laugh after it. June 20, 2018 Shout out to Conscious Lee for putting this up. I came to this country as an illegal immigrant at five years old. I can't imagine the horror of being in a strange place and having my parents stripped away from me at the age of five. This is so scary to me. Please stop this. Can you try to imagine the terror and panic these kids feel right now? And there's a picture of kids lying on the ground at a detention center. That was Nicki Minaj eight years ago. Seven and a half. Eight years ago. Is I. I'll ask you this question. I'm not going to even go on a rant about Nikki because I've already done it. Nothing has changed. I feel the exact same way. I don't even care, but that's how I feel. My question to you is I don't believe that Nicki really has any influence. I don't believe that. Nicki Minaj, when we saw her at Turning Point USA with Erica Kirk, we see her walking out hand in hand with Donald Trump now, talking about people bullying him and getting her trump card and, you know, pledging to contribute certain money. Pledging she hasn't done it yet to help fund Trump accounts. I don't know if she has enough influence at this point not to be taken seriously, but to where it encourages people to follow suit. And support Trump in the same way they might support Nikki. Right. Like they might say, which I got a lot of heat from the first time we talked about her. They might say, stop talking about Nikki. Don't say those things. You know, these are personal attacks on Nikki. And so they'll stand up for her, people who still follow her. But not to the point where I believe that she's having the influence of creating a movement towards Donald Trump. I don't think that. So that's why I, like, I'm so flippant about this. Cuz I don't believe that this is effective, do you?

[A]

I don't think so. I don't think that it is. But I also don't know so much that that matters.

[C]

What matters then with this?

[A]

A couple of things matter. Number one, I felt like this was really bad for Kanye.

[C]

Why?

[A]

So Kanye comes back and he apologizes, he apologizes, I'm sorry, all of that stuff. And then two days after Nikki does this and everybody who was like, ah, man, maybe we should go easy on Kanye, they go, nope, nope. Cause I don't remember this. This is how it started. And this is the same thing. I remember this. I remember this same thing. That Tweet came from 2018. Me and Kanye's interaction came in 2018. And Kanye meeting the president and doing all of that stuff that was right around that same time. So it's interesting that she was on that then and he was on that then. So I think for a lot of people, for myself, I was like, ah, I remember how it started. This is where it began. And for a lot of people, there's going to be an echo there where they go, this is someone who doesn't seem like. And I'll be honest and try to also be sensitive, that they are completely in their right mind right now. And. And they are in a position where their platform is and you know, their past and their star status is being used by the administration. And when Kanye would be talking, centering Trump or talking to Trump, should I say talking about Trump to Trump, whatever. It didn't seem like there was a real understanding of what was happening. And with her, it's the same way. I'm not excusing it. I'm saying to me that was like a shock to my system to where I was like, this is a thing that I've seen before and it can get really, really bad. It can go either even further than how far that it's already gone. It can get to a point. We can start with Donald Trump, and then we. It can end in the iced out swastika. This is like a road. It's a journey. It's something that happens. I think a lot of things about this. I think, number one, I want celebrities to understand that right now, when you join the maga wing of the celebrities, that's the chitlin circuit. Like this. This. I mean, I'm just being for real. And that's not a diss to people that was on the chitlin circuit. Like the maga wing of celebrity. You at the party with Dean Kane and Chris Rock.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

This is not. This is Nicki Minaj, like, essentially ending her own career as a mainstream, likable, digestible hip hop figure. This is her doing this. I'm seeing right now, Stacey Dash hop around and try to be cute, beautiful Stacey Dash. Like we knew her before. That's gone forever. You ruined that. And I tried to have this conversation before. When you pick that side and you are as committed to it as some of these celebrities are, everything that happens over there, people associate that with you. And it's very hard to come back.

[C]

From it unless you're Kanye.

[A]

Well, Kanye.

[C]

And we'll see. But I mean, I feel like, you know, you listen to two days later, she came out and did this. Two days later. He also announced the date for his new album.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Two days after his letter. I mean, Kanye obviously was sitting down smiling with Trump endorsing him all the things. I mean, he was one of the first that we really saw do it. And I feel like we don't talk about that as much anymore, obviously, because he's done so many more racist and bigoted things. But Kanye, you could make an argument was the first. And I don't know. Yeah, I did make the argument, but in regards to. Because you're calling out Nikki, obviously. Huge name, super influential. You spoke on the podcast about what she's meant to so many people. You know, just her presence and. And how different she was. And she spoke to people in a way, and they felt seen in a way that they hadn't before by a celebrity like that. I. I mean, you're saying she's done.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

[C]

She's ending her career.

[A]

No, no, no. I'm. No, no, no. I'm very. She's ending her career in a certain way. Like, not. This is. She will now be able to go and perform at Mar a Lago, at the maga stuff. She's ending her career in terms of being. In my opinion, there are other. There are other rappers who are Trump supporters, and those rappers who are Trump supporters haven't gotten behind the Trump movement in this way. Right. But for somebody like Nikki, who is on stage at Turning Point usa, who is almost a de facto part of the administration, for somebody like that that's doing something like this, this, to me puts you in the, like I said, Kid Rock, Dean Kane, Vanilla Ice level of celebrity. There is a cohort that she is going to be with. It doesn't end her career overall. Very few things can when there are as many eyes and ears as the Internet provides. It does, however, end her career with a certain group of people who forever, forever, whatever reason, are going to associate her with this. Kanye's journey is an interesting one, and that's an interesting point. If you remember, Kanye was as effective at laundering the Trump stuff as he was at doing it in the first place. The first thing that he came back with was Sunday service after that, and it was God and it was Jesus and it was, I have turned over my entire life to God. I went crazy for a little while. He comes back out of that, but kind of stays on it for a long enough time for you to believe that he had gone nuts and he had said and done a lot of things that maybe his mental health were making him say. But he found salvation in God. He found salvation in Jesus and he was fighting this battle. And you can kind of connect with it. Maybe Nikki can come out and do that same type of thing. I will say this, though. There is something different here at the moment that she's choosing to do this. She's choosing to do this at a time when the administration is historically unpopular. Historically unpopular. Like even with the independents and the people that support. I saw Andrew Schultz and Akash, like RIP Trump and all of that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Joe Rogan still kind of on his side. So historically unpopular. Tim Dillon, all the podcast bros that have come out. So she's getting down with this at really a low point, in my opinion, for the popular project of MAGA Trumpism. Does that mean that Nicki Minaj won't be able to come back to a very forgiving black community or world community and go, hey, whatever, whatever. It doesn't. But it's certainly a choice to me from her.

[C]

No, it's definitely a choice. But I just think of it in the Kanye, since I think if Kanye is able to. To come back, because I think you could make an argument that he's done worse than Nikki and, you know, Nicki might keep going. We don't know, but if Kanye can come back, Nicki can come back.

[A]

Can I tell you something else, though? Nicki Minaj is a big, big, big star. It's levels to this.

[C]

I don't want to take it here, but what do you mean? What do you mean there's levels to this? Because why are the levels to it? Is it in any way gender specific?

[A]

Could be.

[C]

I was like, I don't want to go there.

[B]

But, but.

[A]

So it could be. All of this is a calculation in it. But Nicki Minaj is a big deal. There is a gulf of importance, reverence, meaning to people. You made the argument between Nicki Minaj and Kanye West a gulf of that. Like when I tell you, for as big as Nikki is and for as much as, you know, she's worked with Kanye and all of that stuff like that, and, you know, but there's a gulf between the two people. People have a difficulty letting go of Kanye west that I do not think that they are going to have when it comes to Nicki Minaj, I just don't think. I think to her fans, but they are fighting the barbs. A lot of the barbs are fighting a battle amongst themselves. But for a lot of people, it's just, they don't. All of the lights. That is not the same. I mean, it's, it's. I mean, I'm just being for real. It's. It's tougher.

[B]

We'll see.

[A]

It's tougher. I will say this, though. Nikki has now, I guess got into Trump Gold Card or whatever like that. I want to say just something real quick. You know, hip hop in and of itself. I joke about this, but we really have to have a conversation. Hip hop in and of itself seems like it is on its own course. There was a time where at least I felt, and maybe I'm wrong about this. There was a time where at least I felt that hip hop, the needs, the wants, the concerns, and maybe I'm wrong about this, of black culture and the black community were. It was important to be aware of those. As a rapper, it seemed like it.

[C]

They were rapping about it.

[A]

Some of them were, not all of them were.

[C]

But. Yeah, but I feel like that's where it started, right?

[A]

Well, it was important to kind of at least care about your perception amongst the needs and the concerns of the black community. And even more than that, it seemed like it was important for hip hop to hold power to account. Remember, when I think about Ice Cube, you know, I wrote a letter to the president when I Think about, you know, fuck the police. I think about hip hop being a vehicle that held the president to account, that kind of looked at American power and went, this is what they not giving us. This is what they're not saying. This is not, this is what they're not doing. Just always it seemed like to me, like not a lot of it should I say now I will say that. That what that actually the president actually changed. That was not Donald Trump. The president that actually changed that relationship between hip hop and American political power was actually Barack Obama.

[C]

Oh, I was gonna say that.

[A]

No, no, no, it was actually Barack Obama. Barack Obama was the one that became the president that, you know, you, you, you want to, you know, there were hip hop songs at the bottom and all of that stuff. But even that though, even that was in a tradition of celebrating blackness and what it was. Blackness, right.

[C]

For sure.

[A]

There's been a commodification of hip hop music and a deep just simply attaining in hip hop that's going along with the concept of chasing the bag that has in a lot of ways totally disintegrated. What I feel like is a lot of rappers sense of responsibility to the places in which they've came. And I'm not just talking about political movements or who you might support, whatever. I'm talking about people being irresponsible about things like Black Lives Matter or mass protests. People being irresponsible with things that have to do with like race. I'm just an irresponsibility on behalf of that class of artists that has been really pronounced and very direct in the last 15, 20 years. Right. It's, it, there's no way around it, there's no way around it that once all of this stuff became just about capitalism and chasing the bag. The sense of fuck who you support or what it is that you support or what your politics are. Just the responsibility that exists with having a platform that you have two black people or two black movements where black people are being hurt. That is gone.

[C]

Well, it's interesting that you say responsibility because I feel like before, and I'm not saying everybody, that there was this sense of, you know, like, I'm here, I'm responsible, you know, like use my platform or talk about the community or give back or whatever it may be. I feel like the mindset has changed to your point in the last 20 years where it's really about how much money you make, what you look like, where you live, what you're driving your relationship to, being rich and they're in this kind of, this flipping attitude of, well, don't look at me as a role model. That's not. I'm like, I'm just here to get a bag. Like, it feels like that's what's popular, that's what's important more than it is about the meaningful side of it.

[A]

Yeah, and. And look, you know, I get it. I think the. There was always different parts of hip hop music. Always. Right. The interesting thing about the career of Jay Z is that he would outwardly discuss this schism within him. Because there was never ever, ever a portion of Jay Z's career where there wasn't something more to Jay Z than just I'm the flies guy. Like there was nothing more. There was, there was, there was always something more, should I say, than just that. Because those raps were grounded in his experiences, how he saw society and all of that stuff. I do think that people saw, like, particularly him and others rap, other rappers like him, the lifestyle, the beautiful women, the pouring of the champagne. And I think that became the overall message of it, that that is what the music brought to you. That is what success in the music brought to you. If that in fact is the case. Hip hop is dangerous. It's specifically dangerous to black people if it's only about that. It's specifically dangerous to black people. It's a danger if it's only about that. That, like, because when you chase the bag, solely and specifically, the problem is you never know where the bag is going to take you.

[C]

That's true.

[A]

You never know whose bed the bag is going to bring you to. You never know whose dick the bag is going to put in your mouth. You never know what stage the bag is going to put you on. You never know what the bag is completely dehumanized. It's. You just don't know where it's going to take you. And if all you, all you're doing is chasing that, if you're not chasing your betterment as a person, the betterment of your community, the responsibility of your community. If you're not chasing something more than just the bag, I'm letting you know the bag isn't a good father, the bag isn't a good mother, the bag isn't a good og. Take it from somebody, take it from experience.

[C]

Well, if all you're going for after the bag, it's almost like selling your soul. But I do wanna make this point though. I think also the responsibility that we talk about may change, not may change, did change, or the messaging change, because the Audience is different. So I think that it, like you look at these rappers now and they go to these shows, it is very hard. I'm talking about a Kendrick show. It's. There are a lot of non blacks in the audience.

[A]

Always been that way. Always been that way.

[C]

I'm not.

[A]

Okay, go look at a Public Enemy show from like 91, 92 when I tell you it has always been that way. Always been that way. Always.

[C]

All right, well, then I guess that takes away my point. I just feel like I'm not saying that they didn't necessarily consume it, but I feel like it's consumed maybe more so outwardly publicly than it was before. And I think that if this is who your audience is and this is who's buying it, or this is what makes you popular. Popular or takes you to the next level, then your messaging is going to be targeted to more of a general audience or towards something that they'll consume or they can relate to more than it's going to be for us. I don't think it started that way. I don't think it was always diverse. I think it's. I mean, you know, I've never seen a picture of a Public Enemy concert in the 90s that you're talking about, but I just think that the messaging changed to reflect who's consuming it and what's going to make you more popular anyway.

[A]

Yeah, see my problem, I just don't.

[C]

Think they care anymore. It's why Yachty can say things. Make a joke about George Floyd.

[A]

Yeah. My problem with that is that, like, by the time hip hop became one of the best selling genres, white people had to have like, bought into it. Right. It was just a part of it. Like they. It's a part of the numbers you have to have if you're gonna. If Snoop gonna sell 800,000 in one week and then the next week come back and sell another 800,000, which, by the way, every time I think about that, that blows my fucking mind. Doggy style comes out. Doggy style goes 800 grand in the first week, is out. By the time it comes back, it's another 800,000. Snoop was out of here. That's so crazy. We don't even talk about that that much. White people gotta be buying your music. Right? Like it's just a fact by that point. That's 93 or whatever. White people gotta be buying 93, 94. White people gotta be buying your music. What I'm saying is that to me, there is something. And I'm not Because even those guys, right, they were up against it. They were up against Calvin Butsy, Dolores Tucker and all of that. But the conversations that we were having with them were about their responsibility as members of the community in the music. We were having conversations with them about how responsible they needed to be to the communities that they came from and in their music. And those conversations were a lot of times being happened, were happening, should I say, intra communally older black people to young black people. Sometimes they were happening with Tipper Gore and all of those people like that and trying to get Uncle Luke and all of that shit. But we were having conversations because there was some thought that they needed in some way to speak to us and about us. Even if we grant them their artistic freedom in ways that were meaningful. And they had to be at least on our side and that really, if the structures of American power tried to, like, choke their art, that we would protect them, that we would say, no government, you can't do that to Death Row. No government, you can't do that to no limit. These young brothers are talking about the realities. Young brothers and sisters is talking about the realities in their communities. Y' all can't do that to them. Them, man, like, I'm sorry, man. The majority of the rappers that to me are big and matter will do anything for a check. Yeah, they'll do anything for a check. They'll go anywhere, do anything, dap anybody, say anything, be with anyone, hang with anybody, do anything for a fucking check. I realize this is coming from the guy from tmz, but I'm just telling you what I see. And it's not just about Nikki being on the stage. It's about people who are still fucking with Aiden Ross even after all of this stuff happened. They won't. Who is who inside the fucking vanguard of hip hop is going to be.

[C]

Like, yo, that they'll actually listen to it?

[A]

What? Who is going to be like, yo, it's things that's good for us and it's things that's bad for us. It's stuff that ma that should matter and other shit. Like, who's gonna do that? Like, who is going to be that? Like, who's going to be that person? Like, is there going to be a movement inside of this music that is so important to black people? Is there going to be a movement inside of this music where people actually give a about what it is that's going on in the places that made them and the people who made them or helped make them? I don't know. But it just seems like one fucking rapper disappointment after another.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, let's take a break real quick as we're doing this podcast. They're voting on DHS funding. So 60 needed. So they need some Democrats to vote on the DHS funding. The way that this works is this, guys. Okay. The Democrats apparently are trying to reach a deal to maybe provide some stopgap funding while they negotiate. This is already passed in the House. While they negotiate, I guess, more durable, longer standing reforms. All right, Some of the reforms they want, banning agents from wearing masks, body cameras and clear IDs. Request requiring warrants for enforcement actions, independent investigations of abuses. Now this vote is happening right now, so we don't know how this is going to go. Republicans have 53 votes. They need 60 votes to overcome this filibuster. They're going to need some Democrats. Like I said before, the negotiations involve like possible short term funding stuff. If this doesn't happen, not the entire government but DHS will be shut down. What is in dhs? Ice, cbp, Border Patrol, you guys know those, those are the bad guys. Tsa, FEMA and uscis. So there would be interruptions in the pay of ICE agents. Training would stop. Some investigations would probably stop. Some administrative processing would probably stop. Certain immigration services would slow or halt. The airports would stay open. The tsa, which a lot of hardworking Americans who seem to be in the crosshairs of all of this back and forth political infighting or fighting in Washington, they would once again go to working without pay while the Democrats use whatever little political power they have to compel Trump to stop sending ICE out to our streets.

[C]

All right, it looks like they voted.

[A]

What Was the vote?

[C]

55, 45.

[A]

The Democrats did not budge.

[C]

Democrats did not budge. So eight Republicans joined them.

[A]

Eight Republicans joined the Democrats. So this is breaking news. While we were doing this, did the Democrats in this situation, do we, did they give any explanation, this is breaking right now, as we're doing this, that they talk about what it is that they are asking for from the Trump administration.

[C]

I'm not, I'm like reading this as I'm, I'm looking at a political article right now.

[A]

We're doing this in real time. We're doing it live as of now.

[C]

They're still, they're still gonna vote though, so I guess they're still negotiating. They have until Saturday morning before, before the government was shut down.

[A]

So they have a little time to be able to get what they want from the Republicans. All right, the bill's blocked. The reforms. They, they asked for these reforms Republicans wouldn't do. Is this enough for you, the Democrats reforms to then fund?

[C]

Enough in what way? I mean.

[A]

Yeah, is it enough? I mean, if, if they get these. So, so here's the, here's because what.

[C]

Are the reforms that.

[A]

The reforms are the ones I read earlier.

[C]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

So like once again, we'll read them again. And this is the questions you guys should ask yourself. The demands are banning agents from wearing masks.

[C]

Oh, I saw all this.

[A]

Sorry, that's all enough. I read it before. It's not enough. It's not enough. Okay, so then you. Do you view voting to fund DHS with ICE being a part of it in any way as a bridge too far for you?

[C]

When you do the research and you listen to people talk about the hiring practices of DHS, when you see some of this reporting coming out about who is within it and the affiliations they have to other groups, when you see that even though they came out and announced today that the two officers who fired their guns to kill Alex Preddy are on administrative leave, the other officers that were still involved are still out there. And I, and I would argue that the administrative leave was only happened because of the pressure that is happening from the people in Minnesota that they're putting out there before it was reported that they were just repositioned to somewhere else. You're. So the thought process within DHS is to reposition people who killed someone who was not even a threat. That shows me that there are deeper problems like yeah, wearing the mask, the body cameras, sure, that helps. But it is so rotten to its core from the top to the bottom that to me this isn't enough.

[A]

Well, obviously I, I say abolish. Let me give you two different frames or realms of reality, should I say, obviously I don't want to fund it. And I believe that ICE not being funded would destroy ice. I think that ICE not being funded right now with the type, the, the personality profile of the ICE agents that are involved in this, these guys not being paid with some of the pressure that's already on ICE in terms of public pressure, if you halt some of this stuff, if you halt some of these actions, I think that you'll see probably mass defections of ICE agents in cities all over America. We will see then if somebody tries to work a go around or something like that, there are all kinds of illegal ways that they could end up trying to fund these guys and do all of this stuff. We'll see, you know, just how much infrastructure There is on the other side to keep these gentlemen paid or keep them involved. I believe right now the morale is probably getting pretty low and the public perception is at an all time low. And if you hit them in their pockets right now that you could deal a significant, significant blow to the long term and definitely the near future of ICE operations in the country. That's what they should do. That's not what they're gonna do. They're going to cut a deal and they're gonna find a way to fund it with all of those reforms in it. They're gonna do that and then this is what's gonna happen. The same thing that's happened a couple of times before is going to happen again. And what you are going to find out is that these reforms are not enough. Because in many different cases in American life right now, reform is not enough.

[C]

Correct, Greg, I assume you're referring to police reform.

[A]

Lots of different types of reform. To me, the reform is the R word. Oh, that's the R word. A lot of these systems need to be broken apart and put together as something else. Reform to me is it's, it's, it's a way of law, of, of pulling a wool over people's eyes and making them think that you're doing stuff. Some things can, like, I guess there are a couple of things can be reformed, but like I don't believe.

[C]

Okay, like you're wearing. Okay, they're barred from wearing their mask. All right. Requiring them to wear body cameras. What happens if the camera doesn't work? What if they say it's broken in the process? What if they turn it off? What's going to happen? Like, it's just, there's just so many things like it's, it's. When I say it's rotten to its core, it's some of the reporting that has come out specifically of what they're doing in Minnesota. Right. In the last week There have been 60 habeas cases that are around 60 habeas cases that were filed in Minnesota. All of them, except for one, were either those people were. Those immigrants were released because it was determined that they are allowed to be here. They're here on some kind of asylum. There were DACA immigrants that were or DACA or streamers, I should say, that were here. Only one person was denied. And that person came over here legally. And the only reason he was his habeas case was or petition was denied is because of all the crime that even though he came illegally, that he had committed, he was A criminal. But my point is, is that you have these people out there detaining, kidnapping, because that's what it is. People who are legally allowed to be here. None of these reforms, in my opinion, even if you're setting rules around warrants. Right. None of these rules, in my opinion, are really going to get down to what is happening within the streets of this country. Because the people who are executing this are being empowered by someone like a Tom Holman who's there now, who literally said the second day that they dropped down in Minnesota somebody's gonna die. And they did. That's, that's the problem here. So this isn't gonna cut it. And if you're really paying attention to what's happening and you're passionate about the fact that people are being kidnapped because they're legally supposed to be here when people are dying, then this will upset you because this is not enough. Cuz who's enforcing the. Who, who's enforcing these things?

[A]

Well, I think some of this stuff, well, a part of it calls for maybe an independent agency to be shut up, set up to enforce some of the stuff. Like if, when I just read it, some of the stuff calls for an independent whatever. It doesn't matter. It, I, I don't think that I should be funded. I think that if we have the opportunity right now, seeing what we've seen on the streets of American cities, not just in Minneapolis, but in Chicago and other places where people have been shot, unfairly detained, where children have been sent to detention centers by ice, all of this stuff has to stop. And one way to stop it is stop funding it. I'm very empathetic to the people that are working TSA and other things that would be affected by this shutdown. But the Democrats have to hold firm on this. To me, I am guessing that there's eventually going to be a deal of some sort. I don't think that Trump is going to relent or the Republicans are going to relent from their belief that ICE should, should be on the streets. So the Democrats are probably going to have to make some sort of deal. There's going to be levels of disappointment here that probably exists. Nobody voted for it today, though.

[C]

Can I just say how crazy it is that two of the reforms are setting. One of them is setting rules around warrants. How did that not exist before? The other one is creating a uniform code of contact and use of force rules. How did that not exist before? That's crazy that that's two of the reforms.

[A]

Well, I think the Warrants actually probably have existed, I think.

[C]

Well, they have. They have been doing it without having warrants.

[A]

They've been doing it without having warrants. Because there's a process by which they get something that substitutes itself.

[C]

It's an administrative warrant, which is like, without a judge.

[A]

Without a judge. And I think what they want is to get rid of. Of that probably, and go back to following what's the law? Oh, the Constitution is he. Remember, the slave owner was like, I want to make a set of laws so that we can. Is. Oh, it's the Constitution. So they're probably thinking maybe they should kind of use that.

[C]

Well, Supreme Court said that they could racially profile.

[A]

That's tough. Call your local senators. Rachel is going to explain how you guys can get in the fight against ice.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Well, go to my page and do it. I mean, you can go to House. You saw that.

[A]

I saw that video that y' all made. Who are those people?

[C]

Thoughts?

[A]

I hate it.

[C]

You hate those kind of videos.

[A]

I don't like them.

[C]

Why would you hate it when people.

[A]

Are saying, I don't hate that you did it? I hate those types of videos.

[C]

So let me tell you why that video is meaningful. That video was with girls that I was on next season with of the Bachelor. So that's girls from season 21 of the Bachelor. The Bachelor, which we have talked about. This show which you have so amazingly named as there's a sector of it of the Bachelor clan, the Bachelor, a conservative audience. The Bachelor, where most of the times it's the minorities, which also was in this video, that are always speaking out. People are. A lot of them are connected to Maga. I'm not gonna say they all are, but they are, and they're too afraid to say anything. So one of the girls in the group had the idea that we should use our platforms to say ICE needs to abolish. You can hate those kind of videos all you want, but in that type of world where you don't see people coming together because they're constantly using their platforms to talk about the product that they're selling or the event that they went to or showing you their new clothes, whatever it may be, and it's not rooted in anything meaningful, to me, it wasn't even my idea. I'm not gonna take credit for it. My friend Astrid, who immigrated to this country when she was 13, lives in Canada now. Like, she's American citizen, lives in Canada, is, like, so horrified by it that she was like, we have to come together. So we Sent out a text message myself. Astrid Danielle, who is a nurse out of Nashville, she's white, sent out a text message to about 20 girls for my season. In the video, there's seven women that participate, including me. Five of them are of color. It's all the women of color from that season. Of the 20 that were asked, most of the people in that chat ignored it. I didn't want to give credit to a couple of girls who were like, I'm already posting. I'm not. I'm not a big fan of the Bachelor audience. Has been a certain way to me. I don't want to incite that attention to my page, which is so fair. But. And some other people were like, I've already reposted using my platform. Other people are going through some other things. But most of those women, including people that I call friend, ignored it.

[A]

Oh, shit.

[C]

And for me, I think I wasn't gonna say anything, but I think it's so important. Should I name the people who ignore it?

[A]

What do you do?

[B]

Should I name it?

[A]

Nah, I don't know if you. That's up to you.

[C]

Well, I think it's obvious. I think it's obvious, but this is what I will say. I know to the outside who. Somebody who's not attached to Bachelor Nation. You might look at it as whatever way that makes you feel, like you don't like it. But the response, of course, you got people from Bachelor Nation who hate it, but the response has been like, this is how people should be using their platform when they can. And it was an opportunity for me, because I'm confrontational, to call out people that I call friends and saying, you know what? I would have had more respect if you would have responded in the chat and said, I don't agree with it. Not for me, not comfortable. I got a job. I got a post about. Or like, whatever it may be, but to ignore it, to me, is the biggest problem of it all. And when I called them out about it, it was more about, well, I'm not educated on politics. We're in our fucking 30s. I'm 40. I'm the oldest of that class to be in your 30s and say you don't understand. First off, to politicize what is happening. Okay? I don't think that this is politics. I think that as I explained to them, that is what they try to tell you to give you fear, to not speak out. It is a way of controlling you to not care, to not know what's happening right now in the world. You can't ignore it. You can't escape it. You are being willfully ignorant or you just don't give a fuck. And to me, that's frustrating to me for somebody that I call friend, because I am trying to reason if I want that type of person in my life. It's not okay for you to just sit back and sit in your bubble. Because what I told those girls is the reason that you are able to do that is your privilege. Your privilege allows you to continue on in your life like nothing is going on when people are dying in the street. And it's. Of course this has been happening, but for you to turn away. I don't know if I want to be affiliated with that. That's a problem. And they actually were pretty receptive to the ones that I talked to, what I had to say. And, you know, I guess it's up to me to see how they move forward from that. Cause I'm not gonna pressure anybody that they had to be a part of the video. But I think it's very telling that it's all women of color. An immigrant and then one other white woman that wanted to participate while the rest of you just continued on with your lives as if nothing else is going on because your privilege allows you to do that.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

And I was not gonna say a thing, but like it.

[A]

But like, yeah, it's. You feel like batch. Very well said, by the way. Do you? Okay. To the point that you're talking about right now with the people. As far as people wondering why. I just don't. I. There are a whole bunch of things that. For a good cause that, you know, just. I sometimes find them cringe. You know, this video wasn't cringe, but it was. It literally, it was.

[C]

For me, it was important that it said abolish. No, no. Certain things needed to be said. One, to tell people how they can call their senators.

[A]

Right.

[C]

The other was. I want to be very matter of fact, I believe in abolishing it. I wasn't going to tiptoe around it and be like, you know, skirt around the issue. I don't think that we're in a place right now, as you said so well before on the podcast, where you. It's either this or that.

[A]

Right. Once again, everybody has different jobs. You do your thing. Everybody does other stuff. Celebrities and people with platforms have to use their stuff. Obviously, you know, sometimes it is what it is. But I think your passion around this, for everybody who knows all of Rachel's passion and everything that she's passionate about is 1000% real. I think what I'm more interested in is not actually the question around the video itself, because the video is trying to do something good. So it doesn't matter who likes or who doesn't like it. I think I'm interested in the more fundamental question about whether or not you're at the position in your life or anybody's at the position in their life that they can have friendships and relationships with people who stay silent in moments that feel this important.

[C]

Yeah. And I want to be clear, like when I was talking to them, I said, you know, in 2020, I was like, it was rough for me. I mean, I was looking on people's pages who's posting, who's not. I wanted people to be as angry as I was. And that was a lot. I let that go and I have matured and I realized that not everybody is going to use their platform in the same way as me, but they need to do something. So that's why I said, I'm not even against you saying I don't want to participate in this. But are you not bothered by what's happening? Are you not having these conversations? And, and, and it was eye opening to me in some sense because some of the girls I talked to were selling me that how their family is like, their family is very maga and very outspoken. And they were telling me how, you know, it's. I'm not saying that I agree with it, but just hearing the other side of it, of how you care and love about somebody and you've trusted somebody and they can believe these things. So there's this conflict of almost like it's hard for them sometimes to like publicly go out against their family. For me, that would not necessarily be the case, but I can understand that that is hard for you. And I appreciated hearing that perspective. And what I was trying to tell them is I'm not trying to force you to do anything, but doing nothing is an. Is an issue for me. And so maybe it's not. I'm not saying you're not my friend, but it's like I have to restructure what my friendship may look like with you because I can't reason the way that you're behaving. It's. And I really tried to say, you have questions, ask me, come talk to me. I'd be more than happy to explain to you certain things. It's just you saying, I don't know, politics doesn't cut it. Do you know humanity? Do you have, do you not feel anything like an ethical obligation or your moral values being tested by what's happening right now, or like that, to me, is the question. And I tried to explain to them that this is exactly what they want and this is how they built their power by the exact way that you're acting. I said if everybody sits in their privilege and does nothing, nothing will ever change. You can't. I'm not directly impacted by exactly what's happening in Minnesota, but I'm not just sitting back and watching it happen either, because I can't help myself.

[A]

Right. Yeah. All right. And so you. So fuck them.

[C]

No, I didn't say that.

[A]

No, that's what I'm saying, because you got me.

[B]

But I will.

[A]

That was. That was Rachel's most stirring speech.

[C]

But.

[B]

Willful ignorance. But I.

[A]

But I don't like that. You.

[C]

You cannot be will.

[B]

Willful. You turn.

[A]

You change my mind on the video. I will make one with all of the player proof and then we're going to come out against this. You. That was really, really, really persuasive.

[C]

Well, I don't want to take.

[A]

It's a video. But like, what you. You. Your passion is.

[C]

Yeah, I just. I, you know. No, no, no. My eyes are red from my lashes. No, no, my eyes. No, no. Angry more than anything. No, no. My eyes have been red the whole. They've been like this whole podcast.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[C]

I. I grew up privileged. Right. But I still walk the world as a black woman. Imagine if I was like, well, I didn't grow up that way. I like that stuff that doesn't affect me just because it's not right at my door. Like, I just. I'm just not built like that. And I would think that the circle of the people that I call friends are disturbed by these things. That's. I guess that's what I mean. It's easy to look away. And that's. And I think that registered with them. I hope it did. They said it did. When I said you're doing it because you can.

[B]

You.

[C]

You have the privilege to look away.

[A]

Yeah. You know what we're going to talk about real quick about Ray J. Then we're going to get out of here. We have Ashley Ellison we're going to throw to that. Here's the deal. Very simple. It's hard to respect people who don't respect humanity. Just want everyone to think about this because we talk about all political differences and whether or not you should hang out with people and be friends with people and stuff like that everybody has somebody in their life, that you learn what they believe politically, and then you like, damn, this is the same person I went to Fun Fair park with. 1999. What I'm supposed to do now. Right. I get that. I understand that. But I just want you guys to think, you know, you go into a restaurant with someone and somebody that you like, somebody that you friends with, and then they treat the staff like shit. You in a store with someone, somebody walks over, they treat the staff like shit. You're anywhere with anyone. They laugh at homeless people. They even. Not even that dramatic. Just somebody that doesn't have respect for the condition of humanity and what people are going through. You are somebody special. If you could be friends with somebody like that. If you can be friends with someone who sees somebody in trouble, in peril, who sees someone that is being fucked over and just doesn't care, doesn't want to get involved, doesn't think it's worth the conversation, that's difficult. And increasingly, what's happening in the political climate that we're living in, by the extreme nature of some of this stuff, is that the very reality of being a free citizen of this country is being defined and redefined. And if you think that someone getting shot or on the streets of the community that they live in and then lied about in death by the people in power, if you think that's okay, or that doesn't require a mumbling word, there's just going to be a lot of people that's going to be like, go fuck yourself. And we're not talking about the tax rate. You know, we not talking about. Measles is back. If you a pro measles nigga, I'm not with you. I'm sorry. Like, measles is bad.

[C]

I've never heard somebody say pro measles.

[A]

Like, measles is back. A lot of y'.

[C]

All.

[A]

Y' all pro measles niggas. And, like, if you. If you pro measles, I'm sorry, bro. We used to have a lot of fun hooping, and we used to. Like, we used, bro. All of the stuff we done, you can't be. I've been on the phone with some people, and I'd be like, yo, my nigga, I'm not even going to name names because you. Some of y' all would be disappointed. I'd be like, yo, bruh, like, I'm not trying to tell you how to think, but I'm begging you, I need you to take 15 minutes and just, like, had a Conversation with me real quick, because what I'm getting right now just is not me. Now, you guys know I haven't really been that way. I'm, you know, I've known all different types of people. I feel, I'm saying all of this stuff. I'm. Yes, anding you. I feel what you're saying. I completely understand what you're saying right now. You're becoming somebody that went along with the rise of the thing. And yeah, if that's who you want to be, that's fine. But y' all gonna have to have y' all own clubs, Chitlin Circuit, go to the Kid Rock, Nicki Minaj party. They, they, they.

[C]

No, they just. It's worse. They just. They don't even do that. They just pretend it's not happening.

[A]

All right, before we get out of here. Well, first of all, Ashley Allison joins us right now. Let's get to that. All right. Just, you know, as a three time Route 100 honoree, it's very important. I wanted to take this time to. To give thanks to the new CEO. Owner.

[B]

Owner.

[A]

Owner. CEO. Are you the CEO?

[B]

No, I'm not owner.

[C]

You ain't gonna get a fourth time because you're not getting it. Right.

[A]

I'm sorry. Owner Ashley Allison, a media entrepreneur, creator, advocate, organizer, and thought leader. Jesus, I love it when people call themselves thought leaders.

[B]

I did not write that.

[A]

It's written for you. Seamlessly bridges the gap between culture and politics. Very interesting. Senior advisor in the Obama Biden White House. Wow. Served as a national coalition's director for the Biden Harris 2020 presidential campaign, where she led nearly 500 staff to activate the most robust coalition of voters in modern history. Who went on to get their asses kicked.

[B]

I didn't. Who?

[A]

Like Kamala Harris, Right?

[B]

Yeah. I didn't work for that campaign.

[A]

Now, had you worked for that campaign, would it have been different, do you think?

[B]

Probably not.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I'm only one person.

[A]

You're only one person. Thank you for joining us on higher learning.

[B]

Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here.

[C]

You did forget to mention she's part of Delta Sigma Theta.

[A]

Is that true?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

What? What? What? What? What? What chapter? Yeah. Chapter? Yeah.

[B]

Epsilon Ohio State.

[A]

Oh, wow. Okay, so let me ask you a question real quick.

[B]

How are you? Okay, now it's all about us.

[A]

Wait a second. Y' all didn't know.

[C]

I knew she was.

[A]

But she didn't know you were.

[C]

A lot of people don't know that. I am.

[B]

A lot of people don't Know that I am.

[A]

Wow. But I'm. But I. But see, I'm not in the thing, though. See, that tells me how many Deltas there are. I know. I know. But I didn't know. You didn't know? You didn't know Rachel was in. No, I don't think you knew.

[C]

I'm not taking any kind of offense to it a lot, but now we don't know.

[B]

And now I did.

[C]

But see, this is where the mistake. This is what. And you don't know this because. I know you think you know all about the D9 and you don't. The mistake would have been if I would have let her come here.

[B]

Yes. And.

[C]

And know she was Adele and not said anything and never said anything.

[A]

Question.

[C]

That is the worst thing.

[A]

Now that we're back on this, can I ask you something?

[B]

What?

[A]

Because this. Let me tell you how this whole D9 thing got started with me and Rachel.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It got started when I used to joke. I used to joke that Kamala Harris was going to be an AKA that was going to be president and that that was going to be at least like a little, you know. That's funny to me. It's funny to watch the rivalry or the competition between the Akas and the Deltas.

[C]

You're taking your college days. We are proud to see what Colin Harris has accomplished.

[A]

Right. So you're proud of it.

[B]

So like, I'm also proud of Katanji Brown, Jack.

[A]

Exactly. See? Why'd you bring it up? She brought it up because she.

[C]

Because they are another first.

[B]

They're first.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[B]

They're first.

[A]

Okay, so we'll move. So there was. I'm just saying the AK is made to the White House first.

[C]

Almost got that.

[A]

Okay, so let's talk about. Because I think we. We have done CNN together a bunch of times. I want to talk about that whole media ecosystem, but the first thing I want to talk about is you in your new role as owner of the Root, a very prominent black publication. What made you want to take over the Root and what do you feel like the responsibility of black centered publications? What do you feel like that that responsibility is to the community at large?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like, we all have these microphones, but if we don't own them, they can go away at any given time. And over the last five years while I worked at cn, I still work at cnn, but while I was starting at cnn, I really enjoyed that. But I also realized it's a small fraction of all that has to be said and all that can be said because they're covering everything from one side of the globe to the next. And so I just started to explore over. Over the last five years, like, what would it look like to. To build something that I own. I co led with other people of color, other women. And so this summer I've been looking at a bunch of properties over the last three years to buy. And over the summer this opportunity literally presented itself. It was probably one of the hardest things I did professionally in terms of I closed the deal in six weeks. We. We realized that it. We were going to be the people in negotiations. And then I signed in six weeks. And if you know anything about acquisitions, that is a very compressed timeline. And I was always like, I'm not going to be like TLC and like get robbed at this deal or like new addition. And like, damn, I mean you. If you know what I meant too when I said that, like, I didn't want to get placed. So I read every word of every contract and then here we are. Now the responsibility is like, it's a lot. You know, literally this weekend I was just like going to get my nails done and I turned on the news and like another person had been shot in Minneapolis and I was like, oh, it was a Saturday. And I was just like, you're never off New Year's Eve. You're like, what's going on? You're never off.

[C]

You're.

[B]

And. And I feel like a great weight and responsibility to tell these stories through a black lens and get it right. Because we are in a watershed moment in this country and people will look back in this moment.

[A]

Moment.

[B]

I know people say that people will look back in this moment and be like, what did you do and how did you do it and why did you do it?

[C]

The roof. Was it black owned before?

[B]

So it started. Was started by Henry Louis Gates? Yes, in 20 2008. But it was owned, it was partially owned by the Washington Post. So Henry Louis Gates and Donald Graham co founded it. So at that point it was black owned. Then it was sold to univision after like 7 years. So not black owned. And then it was sold to a company, Geo Media, not black owned. And then we acquired it for.

[C]

From G. Okay, so black owned.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Taking over the route. Like, what do you see the next chapter being for it now that it is black owned and you're the one that it's running it?

[B]

Yeah, we cover a lot of culture and politics. And I, as someone who comes out of politics, I know culture sets the tone for where People want to follow. So we're going to still do that, like Grammys weekend, all this stuff. But I think we have a responsibility to get back to its origin story, which was covering Obama. They. The Root was founded. It launched like a week before Super Tuesday in 2008. Now just go back to that time. Hillary, Obama. That was the week where it was like, who's going to be the next nominee? And it was, it was founded in that. So that was the origin story of it. And so we're going to get back to that. It's mostly all written and we're going to bring video and podcasts, a lot of different new voices and contributors and we're going to keep this Route 100 list going too.

[A]

Is prestige black media dead?

[B]

Prest.

[A]

What do you mean by that? Meaning when I was growing up, there were a lot of serious places you could go to get serious conversations about black culture. Even ebony, jet, essence, places like that were very meaningful in defining and discussing what black people had going on. ESSENCE would set a beauty standard that black men and women could look at and aspire to. There was a sort of a cultural communal standard that was set in both EBONY and J. It was meaningful. Like those publications had a lot of weight on your television. Bet, yeah, was a gigantic standard setter. There were artists that got played on BET and on mtv. Then there were just gigantic BET artists that did not get played that you. If you wanted to, you was on video. So right. You know, you weren't going to get on mtv. And that was very important for us being able to set standards within ourselves. A lot of things have changed a lot. Media conglomerates have come in, bought up a lot of stuff. BT ended up becoming a Viacom property. Changed the way they operated. Now they're kind of on fumes. A lot of these other names only exist in branding. ESSENCE is gigantic. But the Essence Fest is probably the biggest part of it. The Root is gigantic. The List is probably the biggest part of that.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So the day to day exploration of black culture through media on a prestige level. A prestige level, not what who said about whom going on. All of that's cool too.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Does that exist anymore? Is that dead?

[B]

I think it's dead across the board. Not just in black media, honestly. I think if you look at like the days of Walter Cronite or the days we just don't have that anymore. I think the challenge in this moment that keeps me up at night is like, can you evolve yourself to meet the moment and how people get it, it. I really, I don't like to blame everything on social media and I don't think it's a bad thing. But social media has really democratized how people get their information, how people can set their standards. And the question is, do people want one voice, one standard, one way of living? And the masses seem to be saying no. We want some baselines, but we want a plethora of options of. To choose from. And so can you pick who you are going to be engaging with, with the route and, and give them those options? Because I think sometimes people try and be everything and then they're nothing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we can't do this. I will say, like the root is not the last property I want to acquire. So the root is going to serve a role in this ecosystem of properties and it will have a standard. It might not be the standard that a 25 year old wants to follow, and that's okay, right? It might be the standard that the millennials want. So, but I will say people don't know this. The root. We still get like 12 million unique people to go to our website every month.

[A]

Oh, wow, that's impressive.

[B]

That's impressive. I mean, when you think about how people get news. Yeah, 12,000 or not 12 million. Excuse me, I said 12 million people to go to our. So it's like there is a following. They are loyal and they are telling us what they want and they want what you just said. They want that place to say like you break news, you verify news, but most importantly, you make sense of the news.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[C]

What's a cultural. Cultural conversation that we're avoiding? That's actually key to political progress, girl.

[A]

Well.

[B]

I think we haven't really talked about why Kamala Harris lost.

[C]

Okay. Oh, let's talk about it.

[B]

Right. And I think there are many layers to it. And I think that we don't want to talk about it because we have to have a family conversation first. Then like brought in the family, but still a family. You know, you got your like immediate family, then you got the people who come to the family reunion. Sometimes, Sometimes they come, sometimes they don't. And then there is a conversation we have to have with the greater public about how they engage with women, how they engage with black women. And we haven't talked about it. You know.

[A]

Why do you think she lost? I'm sorry?

[C]

No, no, go ahead. No, it's a good question.

[B]

I think there's a lot of reasons why I think she lies. I don't think she was ever set up. For success. From the day she became the nominee to the day she was. The four years she was in the White House, she got the hardest portfolios. Immigration, let me tell you. So as someone who worked in the White House, you know what, the portfolios that, like, you know, you love, but, you know, they're not going anywhere. Voting rights, because I had that one. We did the voting rights anniversary. We went to Selma. We still don't have the Voting Rights act sign. Right. Since George Bush. Immigration, I mean, it's. Donald Trump is the president, and we're still having problems with immigrants.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So tough portfolio. I think being the first is really hard. And you have nothing to compare yourself to. I think there is a double standard with how women are perceived. She did have a hundred days. That is just very, very hard to do anything in 100 days. And I think that there was just. There's a natural backlash. You have when people are suffering, like, economically they still are. People want to give another choice to somebody else, they're gonna. They're. They're just going to do that. That is natural. It's like, you know, when you date somebody, you're like, well, that didn't work out. Let me try this other type of person. And, you know, it's just who we are. And so I think the totality of circumstances. I'll say this. I never said out loud before the election that I thought she was going to lose, because I still believe I deserve the right to believe she could win. And I think, like, there's power in your words. But I think that every person. The day she. Biden dropped out, and she was. And then that 30 minutes went. And then he. I think everyone was like, we're gonna do everything we can to do this, but I think we are too smart as black people to ever think that it was. We always knew there was a 50, 50 shot it wasn't gonna work out. I do. I think that.

[C]

I say it's interesting because when you talk about the conversation we have to have within our family first and then outside of it, because we had Keith Edwards here on the podcast.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

A week ago recently, and we were talking about the Texas Senate race and. And we were having this conversation with him about the use of the word polarizing and identity and what that means now, that's an outside conversation, but we talk about being able to critique Jasmine Crockett, and we should be able to do that. And then just some of those conversations that we should have. That's a whole thing that I don't necessarily want to get into, but I do want to know moving forward, if we don't have the conversation within ourselves, which I don't think we necessarily will. When it comes to Kamala Harris, what do you think about her possibly running in 2028?

[B]

I think if she wants to run, she should run. I think I said this, though, in 2023 about people who wanted to challenge Biden, like he deserved to run again if he wanted to. And if you want to run for president and you think you're qualified, you get you deserve to run, too. No one just really stood up and said, I'm going to take this on. So if she wants to run, I think it is going to be hard for her to get the nomination. I do. I think that the field is going to be so crowded that it will be hard. But if I. She is the first of so many. It is unfair to tell someone with her resume, don't run, because the reality is we would not tell. You tell a white man with her resume not to run. And so I just try. And now if I was advising her, I might tell her something else. But I think in the. In the world we live on, we are allowed to do the things we want to do. Even if someone tells us, is there.

[A]

Anybody they could have run with 100 days out that you think could have won? Could anybody with that amount of time have beaten Trump?

[B]

Probably not. I mean, I think, like, Obama could have. I think. Yeah. I think he. It would have been very, very hard.

[A]

There's a.

[B]

It would have been very, very hard without 100 days. Like, it was going to be hard for Joe Biden to beat Donald Trump, too. That's the thing. That's the part of the story that.

[A]

We should have never ran.

[B]

He should have never ran. He should have never ran.

[A]

So I guess the 100 days was. That's a function of whatever the intractability of the Biden camp.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the fact that they couldn't see the writing on the wall. I guess my question is, it's, you know, there's a. There's two conversations. One is on the electability of Kamala Harris as the President of the United States of America. I think there were several reasons why, to me, that there were things that could have been done. Right. I think there were just tremendous misjudgments that were made by her campaign, even though I think that the campaign was able to do some things really, really well. But let's just say you thought that Kamala Harris. Let's Just do a thought experiment. Let's just say that you thought that Kamala Harris wasn't a very good candidate for president. Not that she's not brilliant and not that she's not amazing, but for president, maybe you don't think she's a great candidate. How do we have a conversation around the electability and the candidacy of someone that we have deep reverence and respect for, while also talking about maybe our entrenched massage in the war and talking about some things that maybe we can't see granting all of those conversations, but just also going, maybe this particular person, Is it the best candidate for this particular office?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that even fair?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, it's fair.

[B]

It's fair. But I just.

[A]

You guys say that, man, it's fair.

[B]

But this is the. Man, this is the only thing I'll say is that it's fair. But we don't hold other people. We also might not think, hypothetically, they're a good candidate to that same standard. Like, there are a lot of people who are throwing their hats in the ring for, like, symbolically right now for 2028. And we should be saying to those people, you are not a good candidate to run for this. Do not run. But I don't really hear those conversations. I feel like it is always just about her. And I just want us to have, like, a broad, like, nope, nope, nope, nope. If we're gonna do it, and then if they listen, they listen. But this is the thing why I think it's hard. This is a tricky conversation. Is that. That did happen in 2020. Yeah, in 2020, with the primary. Right. People were like, no. And so she dropped out. Buttigieg dropped out. That's what primaries are for. And I think we. Because the Democratic Party did not have a primary like they should have in 2023 to ensure that the voters wanted it, we now have to have these conversations. Like, should we have. The family talk is not like, whether or not she's a good candidate. The family talk is like, how we look at women in leadership, how we have double standards and why we do just even, like, I know, like, you were joking, but it's like AKA versus Delta. Right? Like, there are real things that are not like, not us, but like. Like Sam versus dark skin. Right. White husband versus black husband. Those are all dynamics that people don't. I'm just saying, like, if you're going to have the conversation, that is the conversation that I think makes it more challenging that no one that we. That we have at our coffee we have one at girls night during wine, but we don't have in, like, the strategy rooms when we're thinking about, like, debate prep. And that is. And I. And you know why I think it is? Because I think sometimes the wrong people are in the positions to actually push those conversations.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. No, no, no, I. I definitely agree. I also think that they're painful. They're difficult. Like, it's painful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you. If you legitimately look at a candidate and you go, no, I don't really like her. And then someone goes, that's because you're. That's because she's a black woman. Your first thing is to go, God damn, I don't like my mama like you. And it's. It's painful sometimes for you to come to terms with these things. It's difficult work. You'd rather just be like, ah, answer that question poorly or whatever. Like, it's painful, difficult work. That's why sometimes when you have those conversations, they almost have to be had in trust and love or you're not gonna get nowhere. And they're almost impossible to be had in trust and love with a large group of people, because half of that group of people is saying, if you don't listen to me, you're a bad person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm not saying that that's wrong, but I'm saying that, like, that's the thing.

[C]

Well, the other half of it is people get defensive. Right. That's why you say it's painful. It's hard to, like, have those conversations with yourself and realize what they may be saying is true. And you don't necessarily want to admit that, but the reason we have to have these conversations is because otherwise we'll keep putting the same type of candidate in office over and over and over again, or we'll keep propping the same type of candidate up, which I guess is my question to you is, you know, having worked in the spaces that you have, just like, in different areas, what is a mistake that you see? And I guess I really mean between the Democratic Party because they seem way more united over there. But what is a mistake that we keep making over and over again in regard. And I guess this ties back to the question about political progress so we can move forward. What do we keep doing wrong?

[B]

So many things.

[C]

Well, please. Yeah, I know it's not long.

[B]

I think that one of the things is that, like, who are we? Who are we? What world do you want to live in? Like, after the 2024 election, I started to do like some real reflection. And I'm like, is everybody actually fighting for the same world that I want to live in? Like, what kind of world do you want to live in? What kind of world do you. I'm not sure we all have the same answers now. There are many ways to get a destination, but I got to make sure our North Star is the same North Star. Otherwise I'm running to freedom and other people are running deeper into slavery, right? And so I want to have the question of, like, who are we? What is the world that we want to live in? And I think there's some assumptions we make in the Democratic Party that then default us back when things, when the, when the pressure is on, when it's like a bill to pass or not to pass, a policy to push for, not to push for. It makes it hard if you don't actually know what your North Star is, to then go to war, right? Go to battle. Like, go whip those votes so that we can get what we have promised to people. And look, politics is hard and Washington sucks and it's hard to make any progress with the way the rules are set up. But I think that the question that we should be asking now is like, what is the world we want. Want to live in as a Democratic Party, literally and not. No, like, daffodils and roses on. No, like, do you want, can you say the word poor? Do you understand why people are poor? Do you understand what actual racism looks like? Do you understand why we have never had a female president? Like, and what we have to do, what the long time commitment we have to make to change some of those things. I just, I, I'm, I'm around a lot of people and I'm like, huh, I don't know if we see the same, the world the same way.

[C]

It's like those are questions. We as a party, I feel like we do. But they don't. They don't. And they don't have to. The other side, they don't ask those.

[B]

They don't. I mean, but no, they do.

[A]

I'm not saying they ask them very fundamentally.

[B]

They do. They, they're very clear about, in my belief, of the world they want to live in.

[A]

They take 50. Like they, they. The, the right legitimately decided in 1979, 1978, 1980. Yes, no abortion. And they spent 40, 50 years completely changing this, the spectrum of their political side to get rid of it. And they did it.

[C]

I guess that's not what I mean. No, I agree with you with that because I was, I was not quite the same, but I was kind of having this conversation with someone of our party is so diverse and they try to please so many different things to where I feel like sometimes it splinters the message to where you might have the same North Star, but maybe the pathway to get to that North Star is different, if that makes sense. Where with them it's really just kind of simple and it's either like, you're for us or you're against us, and that's it. Like they're not. I guess that's what I more so meant. Instead, like we. The Democratic Party tries to please so many people because it looks so different where theirs looks the same. And even if you are different within there, you still. It's like they just use you to push up their same message. I don't know if that's making sense.

[B]

It is, it is. I think though, that. I don't know if their party is. Lacks as much diversity. It's just a different type of diversity. I feel like there are like, extremely impoverished people. Their party is like, has some of like the poorest people that live in Appalachia and Bezos. Like, that's a spectrum, right? And as I was coming in, it just was like 16,000 people were laid off from Amazon today. Right. And so, so I think that is the diversity. I hear what you're saying. Like, we probably are a more diverse party, but I think the diversity looks different in, in some ways. But I think that they're pretty clear on the world they want to see. And it is pretty fundamentalist. Like, it is this versus this, this versus this. We're not, we don't need to disrupt too many social orders. And not just that they're very clear on like, how they want to get there. So for example, we think that there are interventions you can make to export, expedite, to get to your. So for dei, right? They're like, no, you're just gonna have to work hard, hard, hard, hard, and you still might not get it and just work harder. We. We're not, we're not here to help anyone. If you make it, you make it. If you don't, you don't. And sometimes I think we're like, we'll help you a little bit, but not too much. And like, oh, no, because. And it's like, what world do you want? Do you help people or don't you? And that just seems like a fundamental question. Question.

[A]

You know, it's interesting what you're saying is something that we've kind of talked about. I don't know necessarily that people know that that much, though. Like, the conversation that I've. That I have with a lot of people sometimes, and I'm specifically talked to a lot of brothers about this, I'm like, what kind of world do you want?

[B]

Yeah, we.

[A]

Like, I asked them that. And even when they answer, sometimes the answer that they give me is a world that is rooted in harm reduction. Right. It's a world rooted in what they feel like somebody shouldn't be able to tell them or what shouldn't be able to happen to them. Right. And I'm like, no, what do you think the tax rate should be? Like, you know what I mean? Like, what do you think foreign policy should be? Build your world. Build a world that operates in the way that you would want it to operate. Because when I talk to people that aren't black, when I talk to the things that they are advocating for, they're advocating for things that have to do with their vision of the world that they should be living in. Let me tell you why I don't think the Democrats are really into that is because I don't think it's a power party, and I don't think it's a party about empowering people. I think it is a harm reduction party. I think it is a party that says, hey, we're the only stopgap between you, Emperor Palpatine, Darth Vader, Grand Admiral Thrawn and the rest of them. So there's. Sometimes you're gonna have to be okay with a little bit less that we give you, because if not, there is just a whole symphony of horrors on the other side. And that's actually not wrong, which is the fucked up part about it, right? That's. That's actually not wrong. But if you talk about vision to people, you have to speak to them in power. You have to tell people there are rights that you have.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This world should exist where you have housing. This world should exist where you have health care.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This world should exist where your wages grow.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But forget about the fucking stock market as an indicator, right, of the American economy. Have your wages grown?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Is there diversity in the workforce where you can go out and be someone? The rights of the worker marks. Lennon. No, I'm just joking.

[C]

Okay?

[A]

So, so, so like, to me, the Democrats don't have that conversation because they don't have any credibility to have it.

[B]

They.

[A]

They don't really have any credibility to. To tell people some of these things because they haven't been moving on that to me.

[C]

Yeah, they've been.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, most people said to me, you know, I worked on the reelect for Barack Obama in 2012. I worked it when a lot of people, I mean, we had record turnout for black folks, but a lot of people, when I would go like in. In 2016 and have that conversation about, now, let's go vote for Hillary, it would be like, it wouldn't be like, I'm going to vote for the other side. It would be like, I'm just not engaging because they're like, my life hasn't improved. And I think you said a word harm, and I think definitions matter and experiences matters. Like, what actually harm are they. Are the brothers that you're talking about talking about, like, what harm have they experienced in their life? Because I think we make some assumptions about that and it's important to know what they mean. But also it's like, what does it mean for your life to improve? What you just said feels like a lot. Wages, increasing, housing, health care. That feels like improvement to me. But if you literally still are on the same block and you want to get off, that might not feel like improvement. And so you're like, maybe somebody else can get me off the block now in four years, if you're still on the block, then you kind of are like, maybe no one can get me off the block. And so I'm just out. Right. I. Maybe this is the condition I'm. And. And what I think you're saying. And what I'm saying is that there is a space in this moment that people realize that the system is not working for most people on both sides of the aisle. And can we have enough courage to imagine the world we want to live in? Which might mean we need to change some systems.

[C]

Systems you mentioned about, like, when it came to 2016, people just didn't.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

We're like, I'm gonna step. Step out of this one. In your opinion, what actually changes voter behavior? Is it facts, Is it emotion? Or is it trust? Or is it all of it?

[B]

It's all of it. I think that at the end of the day, we are. I have a friend who says, like, Democrats want you to go see a documentary and Republicans make a, like, blockbuster hit. Right? And it's like most people go see the blockbuster hit and not the doc, Right.

[C]

Like Melania.

[A]

Yeah. Can't wait.

[C]

The movie.

[B]

Right. Yeah. Not tracking, you know, but I think that most people. It's an emotional reaction, right? It's an emotional, like, I Like it, I don't like it. And it's really hard to move from, you know, when you don't like something, you know how hard it is. Like, what's one thing you just don't.

[A]

Like that I don't like?

[B]

And don't like, not be. Don't be deep. Just say something like, I can't.

[A]

I don't know. Like, I don't know. Like that I don't like. I don't know. I can't really think of something.

[B]

What's something you don't like?

[C]

Dairy.

[A]

Oh, shit.

[B]

You.

[C]

Van, stop. Because it's white.

[B]

Keep going.

[A]

That's crazy. I thought you liked dairy.

[B]

But like, if you don't like dairy, do you know? And. And you are at a restaurant and somebody orders a salad, like a mozzarella and tomato salad, you're like, really? That's. That's what we doing today, you know, and so it's just like that person just, you know, doesn't matter how much you like that human being, you don't like the thing they order. So you're not going to change. Like, I don't like artichokes. I don't care. I don't like them. I don't want them. And nobody's going to convince me otherwise. So it's like if you experience a human and you're like, I don't like that person. It's really hard. It takes a long time. You got to spend some time with him. You got to see him in certain situations to get you to move. So I think one emotions. I think people do have to feel like they can trust you. Like, your word is your word. Like, nobody likes a shisty person. Like, when you're like, there's some timing. Like, I was waiting to get up in the studio. I was like, if Van don't answer his phone podcasting, I was like, I know you're recording, but if this brother leave me in this lobby on red and that we. We gonna have a different type of relationship.

[A]

True. But I. I feel, I feel the need to be honest with you. This is why I feel the need to come through for people. I am a lot.

[B]

That's.

[A]

And so knowing that I'm a lot, you know, that you can always rely. Count on me to be generous, to show up for you and to provide you with things. I know that I'm a lot. I think the Democrats know that they're a lot. But I do think this is what I. This is what I would say. The last thing I'll say about this before I ask you about one more thing. I. I am. I think that. I don't think that this party understands people.

[B]

I don't disagree with you.

[A]

I don't. I don't think they understand even, like, how corny something looks.

[B]

Yeah, like, a lot.

[A]

A lot of times I see shit and I'm like, yo, why you do that? Like, it's like. It's like I'm trying to tell people, hey, this is kind of what you need to vote for. And then somebody will just send me a picture, and it'll be Hakeem Jeffries with a baseball. And. And my homie will be like, this the nigga you want me to vote for? And I'm like. And I'm. And I'm like, well, just. Why are you doing stuff like that? Like, is. And that's a very cosmetic thing, because the fact of the matter is, if everyone who has said this is correct, if the black lady is president. Alex Pretty Renee.

[B]

Good.

[A]

They're alive. Those two people. I know we're gonna talk about two white people. Those people are dead because Donald Trump was elected president. Let that thing. Let that sit with you. They died because of that. Right. And so there is a cost. There's a definite cost. But I think my disillusion with particularly the center left right now is sometimes on Israel, on the economy, like, on AI, there's this gigantic disconnect between them and the fears and priorities of even parts of their own constituency that they either either can't address because of corporate capture, or they just don't have the cultural IQ to see, like, some of the mistakes that were made denying the Palestinians their opportunity to speak at the dnc. Stupid, dumb. Like, legitimately, like, dumb. Like, who are you in that situation right there? Like, who are you playing it safe for? For, like, you're the. A large portion of your base is like, we don't want that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who is that for? Like, I, I. When I see stuff like that, I go, you know what, man? It's. It's. What am I missing, though? What am I. What? Somebody like me, you know, I see you talking to people. You. You on the phone, you whipping votes. You're like, I'm talking to the minority whip. And she does. Like, she doesn't. Like, she, she one of them ones. Like, she really is one of the ones, like, on one of the check. Hey, I know the comms director and all of that stuff. What is somebody like me who is out of that world, what am I missing?

[B]

But here. But I'm out of the world too now because I am the person being like, let them speak. And at some point let's just, let's just, just so you understand, like, I, I'm a faith based person and so I believe in like divine timing. I started working at the White House a month before Michael Brown was murdered. Okay. That was my whole portfolio is waking up and seeing black people murdered at the hands of the state. Right. Traumatizing work. When no one would meet with people in Ferguson, when tanks were in the street, I was like, what are we doing? Like, it was early on, but I'm like, bring them me. I need to know what is happening. I can't go there because I have to be here. But like, so I have always been the person on the inside pushing, pushing, pushing. And at one point I was like, I, I started working for the Biden campaign the week of George Floyd. And I mean, I really had to evaluate if I, I was like, I might have made the wrong decision because I need to be in the streets protesting. I'm like, actually no, you need to be on the phone while they're deciding what their policy platform is going to be around. Police, policing. And I pushed that campaign every, they were so sick to see me coming like every day. I was like, we need to be doing this, we need to be doing that. You don't need to say that. You can say this. Like people are mourning. And I just think that because of the disillusionment, there are and it's hard to do that. Like, it was a, that was a very lonely period in my career, being in covet with that happening and feeling like I was pushing the campaign, but I felt like it was my assignment. There has to be more people like that inside because otherwise you have too many people saying, don't let them speak at the dnc and not enough people saying politically, like, not even like morally, what's right. Right. Like there's, there's different things. There's like in my heart, in my gut, in my spirit, I know this is right, that they should have a microphone. But politically, yeah, you gotta win Michigan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like if you just. I don't. I. That's why I'm not in politics the way I used to be. Because it's like, I feel like sometimes we look at people as just numbers and votes and not humans. And if you looked at people as humans, you'd be able to move them better and faster and actually improve the quality of their lives. But like, morally and politically, it was wrong.

[C]

Right. If someone's listening to this conversation, it feels a little hopeless when it comes to the Democratic Party.

[B]

Oh, no, I got hopeless.

[C]

It does. It feels like it's lost. And so I do want you to speak to that, because what I was going to say is, like, you're not there anymore, but you've been in government. You have the experience. You now have this media platform. You're a contributor on scene, and you're influencing in the best way. I'll say thought leader. If you could redesign how the party talks about or communicates about politics, what. How would you redesign it? Like, what's the first thing that you would do to where things can change?

[B]

Well, I would think about the three things that seem to matter most to people right now. And one is the economy. Like, people are. People are struggling. Right. And it doesn't matter actually, like, what party you identify in. The gas is high, heat is high, jobs are not paying enough. Job. People are unemployed. So I would erase everything that everyone has told you about why something can't work, why it could work, and just say, like, what do we think is a livable wage in this country? Not, like, what is passable, but what is actually. Is it 25 an hour? Is it $30 an hour? Is it maybe in the Southern states because the cost of living is, like, lower? Is it maybe $20 there and $40 in New York? Like, can we just get courageous to just have, like, some, like, what would make your life easier and then write a policy to say. And say, like, this is the thing I'm going to do for you. I can't and be on. I cannot do it all. I don't have enough time and I don't have an. But this thing I am committed to make happen, and I think Obama did that with health care right? Now, again, you. It wasn't the perfect plan, but it was, like, one of the only things that people can really hold on to. And like, they're like, well, what did this person do? Health care. Like, something that the Clintons couldn't do, something that Bush was not interested in doing, something that the Republicans have yet to repeal. But let me just say something about, like, where we are. I was talking to this preacher the other day, and she was like, man, you know, in the Old Testament, the people were stuck in the desert for, like, decades, right? I forget how long it was. Not. It wasn't like 40 days in the desert, but like, stuck in the. Stuck in, like, the wilderness for 40 years. 40. Yeah, right. But even longer than she There was some story she told me anyway, and I was like. And so she, she felt like we were at the beginning of that period. And I was like, what if we're in the last month? Like, what if you could look at it in a different way and figure out what agency you have to say? Because I do think there's this, like, we have lived through the civil rights movement, we have lived through the Black Lives Matter movement. We have lived through so many things like, what if we are in the moment where if we actually take all of our agency and fully lean in, we can shift the. And that is the way I'm approaching this, because I am a storyteller and this is not how my story ends. It is not.

[A]

Say one thing before I get to ask you a CNN specific question. You bring up health care, right? This is my, this is my issue and this is kind of what I'm into. Everybody has different jobs, by the way. Everybody has different jobs. Everyone has different jobs. I tell you guys that sometimes you guys go, you shouldn't be doing that. You shouldn't be doing that. And I'm like, no, don't tell me what I'm. What I shouldn't be doing. Concentrate on what you should be doing and then go do that. Right? Everybody has different jobs. Y. I think about health care. I think about something as overwhelmingly popular as healthcare is. If you start doing polls on stuff, talking to Americans, you'll get something like 80% support on Universal healthcare. It is still a political pipe dream. Why? Because of the corporate capture that exists in the middle of that process. Even when you're talking about that minimum wage, that minimum wage, that national, that federal. It's been done in different places. But that minimum wage hike can't happen because the corporate class then batters and whips the politicians that they own. And because of Citizens United and because of, because of, because of, because of. I'm not even talking to the person that's elected. I'm talking to that person's boss. And that person's boss is the corporate class. And I know that sounds like some really easy dime store analysis, but that's just facts.

[B]

It is facts.

[A]

And like, whenever you try to, like, really have that conversation, you can't have it in a partisan way because that's a bipartisan issue.

[B]

You.

[A]

The question is, how do we reorganize even the ability to hold a politician accountable when they're not accountable to you, when they're accountable to the person that gives them their job, which really isn't you. It's the person that is putting money in their pocket. Like, what's the fix there? Well, if. If you. Yeah, okay, if I'm. If I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong.

[B]

I mean, I hear. I. I don't disagree at all with what you're saying. That assessment is accurate. I do think, though, it minimizes the role of the voter. Right. So there's a couple angles. I will look at it, like, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how much money actually a corporation gives to a politician, if they cannot get the votes they need to be elected.

[A]

Don't matter.

[B]

It doesn't matter. Right. So I think that that is why it goes to being, like, back in community and really building. I mean, it takes a long time. It takes trust, it takes investment. But really building that so that when the people say. I mean, you just look at what's happening in Minneapolis, right? Like, the people are collectively organizing and saying no.

[A]

They said no, no. Yeah.

[B]

Absolutely not.

[A]

And they're willing to go through the.

[B]

Pain, and they're willing. But. And that was my next piece, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if you study any, like, fascist regimes or whatnot, one of the things that is, like, there. There are. There are steps and tactics to have interventions. I think we're actually seeing one of them and is working really well is like, the Target boycott. Right. There still haven't been some, but, like, Target's bottom line is taint because black people said no. Like, I can't. I can't say no to everything. Right? Because, like, I still need to go get, like, the cheapest toilet paper I can find or whatnot, but I can say no to this. And so I think there is, like, some discipline that in organizing that we have to get to collectively together and align with. And then I think, like, if you really want things, like, if you want to lose weight, it's like, you gotta work out. You know what I mean? You gotta sweat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You, you, you. There is no. I mean, well, now there's magic shots, but let's say.

[C]

I'm saying there is no magic bill.

[B]

But now the magic shot. But even that, like, if you. You can lose all the weight, but you ain't got no muscle, and it's.

[A]

Temporary and it's side effects to it.

[B]

And it's side effects to it. Right. And those can be. So there is no. Just, like, easy way. Anything worth having takes effort, takes discipline, can take some pain.

[A]

Yeah. Last thing I'll ask you. There's been. We. We do the show all the time. And sometimes we do the show with one Mr. Scott Jennings. There are people now who say that people with Scott's attitude and approach are not really worth being on television. When I see people criticize Abby or criticize the show that we're on, a lot of times their criticism is in, why is Scott on there? What's the purpose of having Scott or any other person from the right on there? When you can't get a good faith conversation, A lot of times what you get is them laundering the latest horror from the administration telling Americans either why it's not as bad as what they think it is or how some Democrat did it before, so it's okay. Now, is there value to you? I know this is a tough, tough, tough question. Is there value to you in having these conversations when some of these conversations seem like they're in bad faith?

[B]

Yes. Is it easy to have them? No.

[A]

Right, right. What's the value?

[B]

Well, I mean, look, I don't always go in the comments, but like there is, there are people who believe, believe Scott, believe that perspective. I every. This is not going to be breaking news. I do not agree with Scott on 90% of the things that come out of his mouth or any of the Republicans in that matter. But there are. And if there wasn't, we wouldn't have Donald Trump as the president. And I think that that's an important thing is like, if you become blind to a perspective of people, how can you ever engage them? How can you ever persuade them? So I have to know, like in sports, you have to study the other team. In order to study another team, you have to get tape. In order to get tape, you got to go to the game. You got to watch them even if you hate that other team. So I do think, I think that there is an important role that hosts play that Abby plays in like fact checking it and that we have to play when we come there to say, like not on my watch type of thing. But I do think that there is a part of the population that if, if it's not on that platform, you need to be alert and aware that that is how some people think. Because if you go to the comments, whether it's Scott or whoever, people agree with him. But I'm like, yeah. And then sometimes they get in my comments and guess what? They disagree with me. And I'm like, so, like, it makes me stronger and clearer in what I am fighting for and arguing for. When I hear what other people who disagree with me, their position, it just, it makes Me a better debater.

[C]

I think you convinced me. I almost. Sometimes I'm. I'm very. I'm not saying he shouldn't be a part of the show, but I love the way that you just explained that last question for me. Obviously we want everybody to check out theroot.com.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

You've got watering home media and it's all about truth telling. I want you to talk about that. But other than everybody following what's going on the root.com, what's a book, a podcast or a thinker that's influencing you right now? Oh.

[B]

This is gonna sound kind of cheesy, but. So one of my really good friends told me we, we went to Mexico City for New Year's and she told me she read the whole Bible last year. I am trying to read the entire Bible this year. Okay. I have never done it and this is why because I am a person of faith. And I think that if you are going to proclaim and be in conversations and push back, you need to know more than a couple verses. You need to know. You need to know more than just what people. It's easy to preach on. You need to know the good, the bad. And so the Bible and now is it like some of them I'm like, this is just a lot of, a lot of pain here, right? So it's not really. So that is when I've been, I'm like doing this process to get that done in the year. Another one that I. A podcast, trying to think. So I'm not. No shade. I'm not a big podcaster. Right. But what I like are like self help like practices. So there's an abundance practice that I try and do that I haven't started yet. I'm going to start in Black History Month where it's like, no, you said abundance. The his name is escaping me. No, it's not. It's like a Buddhist practice. And then there is one someone I like. I read a lot of like self help stuff. So it's like, do you know who Pima Trodra is? She is a Buddhist. And I did actually. So she. The reason why actually was not going to talk about this, but I feel like there's a lot of pain in the world right now. And she is. There's this practice called Tonglin where you like inhale other people's pain and you give them your. What you find joyful. And so I've done that a couple times and I did that like around Minneapolis because I felt like these Folks are in proximity. And so, like, it's just like an energy shifting thing. So I was, like, doing some of that. I'm just trying to pull on things that are bigger than myself right now because I think that that is what we need. We need to pull. Pull on each other. We need to pull on being community. And I have an assignment here. I'm doing what I should be doing. Okay? But I can only do what I'm doing when I'm in community with other people doing what they should be doing.

[A]

So, yeah, the Root, cnn, Obama, Biden. Kamala.

[B]

You sound like somebody. Daddy.

[A]

She works. She works with everyone. Ashley, Allison, thank you for joining us on Higher Learning.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

All right, before we get out of here, something touched me directly. Regarding Ray J. Talked about Ray J before. Play this audio, Donnie. 2027 is definitely a rap for me. No, don't say that, brother.

[B]

Don't say no.

[A]

No.

[B]

The doctor. Because when you're saying that, you're confirming what.

[A]

No, no. That's what they said. No, no, no.

[B]

Them. But what they said.

[A]

But yeah. Guess what?

[B]

What?

[A]

You're going to live long to see your children grow up. Yes. Nobody ain't ever told you this.

[B]

You're going to live long to see.

[A]

Your children grow up, have children, too. Real n. What doctor tell you your time is done? No. That your name is a doctor.

[B]

Watching this.

[A]

And you think that Ra's days are counted. I'm here to tell you, no matter if my. No, they're not. They're not. His days are not counted. But guess what? My baby mama gonna be straight up. My kids gonna be straight. If they want to spend all the money, they can spend it. But I did my part here. That's okay. Well, Ray J goes on to say is that his heart is only beating 25. That's what he was told. He was hospitalized for a severe case of pneumonia earlier this month. He said his heart is only beating like 25. As long as I stay focused and stay on the right track, everything will be all right. I didn't saw something that maybe he was at 60 or something like that.

[C]

Oh, it went up well.

[A]

Or maybe I've seen. I'm seeing different reports now, you guys. I'm seeing different reports now. So the reason why this kind of touches me, this is what my father died for him. So 2004, I think it was. I was still in my Best Buy uniform. We go to Baton Rouge General. That's on Blue Bonnet in Baton Rouge. Okay. That's on Blue Bonnet In. In Baton Rouge. Baton Rouge General. My dad is there, and he's laying down, and he's, like, peeing out fluid. Like, he's a. He's peeing out fluid. Like, Ebony calls me, and Ebony goes, like, something's wrong with dad. His heart rate is way up. He said he can't breathe. And so I leave work. I wasn't too far away. I leave work. I go there. My dad's laying down. I just remember this so vividly. The doctor walks over to my father and he tells my dad. He's like, you know, there's fluid on your body, on your ankles and on your midsection and stuff like that, because your heart isn't working right. Your heart isn't efficiently beating and moving all of the nutrients through your body or whatever through your body, and so there's fluid that's sitting on you and stuff like that. My dad looks at the guy. My dad goes, I'm gonna be all right, right? And I remember the look on a doctor's face. I've told this story before. The look on the doctor's face was like, nah, this is what's gonna kill you. It might not be today, it might not be tomorrow, but this thing that you have, this is how you go, this is whatever. Now, my dad would have been, at that time, 47 or 48, and so tough son of a bitch. He held on till he was 65. So he lived for a long time. This is if Ray J is actually in heart failure, if he's actually in heart failure, if this is what's going on, if this is not like. Because there. Sometimes this can get mimicked. You can have. If he had pneumonia sometimes. There are other things that can go on with you to where a condition like this can be acute. It doesn't have to last for a long time. But if Ray J is actually in heart failure and in the early stages of CHF or some other related type of deal, then is going to take a complete reorganization of his life to extend his time on Earth. If this is actually what's happening. I actually called him because, you know, a condition like this is. It takes a lot of lifestyle changes and stuff like that, but there are things and ways that I wish that I would have been with my dad and even help that I wish would have happened with my dad while he was dealing with chf, like, his life changed. You still love to hunt. Walk a long time. You can't breathe anymore. You can't climb up in the tree to hunt. Can't Ride your horses like you used to anymore. Everything about your cardiovascular system is changing, and the amount of stress that you can put on your body is changing. You start to change physically, you start to look different. Right? Your medication regimen becomes pretty rigorous. To sleep at night, sometimes you have to have certain things. Things. So just watching that over the course of his life that I watched it, I just could not help but feel they're not that far off in age. If this. In fact, what is. What is ailing A.J. i could. Reggie. I could not help but feel like crazy. Crazy sympathy go out to him and his entire family. So. But last thing I'll say is. If I could speak to him, I would say, don't even. This for all of y'. All. Don't even. Don't ever snatch death away from life. Hell, nah. Don't ever snatch death away from life. 2027 is a rap sometimes. Don't. Don't ever say that. Because even if that were true, you gotta think of the amount of memories that you could still make. You owe your family memories. You owe the people around you memories and actions. Don't ever snatch death from life, man. It's just. Because when you are gone, it's things that people gonna want to say to you, and they can never say them. But I don't know, for some reason, this particular thing, anybody with chf, anybody that's dealing with this. This kind of situation with their heart and all of that stuff, it's just a. It's a. It's a tough, tough thing. It really is. All right, so prayers to Ray J. Prayers to the Norwood family, to Princess, Love, to everyone. I know it's been a hectic, chaotic chapter in Ray J's life, but, man, get on good terms with everybody and make your treatment easy for yourself. All right, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

Taping caps off. But do not stop learning. I AM Van Laton Jr.

[C]

I'm Rachel Lynn Linton.

[B]

Bye, guys.