Memphis Bleek and Van Lathan (Not Jones), Plus Jimmy Kimmel’s Suspension

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Memphis Bleek and Van Lathan (Not Jones), Plus Jimmy Kimmel’s Suspension

Date: September 19, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay tackle major news and cultural flashpoints in Black culture, politics, and media. Van addresses his online feud with Memphis Bleek, which spiraled from a misidentification, and they dig deep into what it means to criticize cultural icons like Jay Z and Roc Nation. The hosts then dissect the unprecedented cancellation of Jimmy Kimmel Live in a shifting media/political landscape under Trump, hitting on themes of censorship, authoritarianism, and free speech. They wrap with sharp critique of the posthumous lionization of Charlie Kirk, the role of privilege and racism in commentary, new developments in the LeBron-Drake friendship saga, and contemporary tragedies linked to America’s fraught racial past.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

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1. Memphis Bleek vs. Van Lathan: Misidentity, Loyalty, and Criticism

[01:41 – 13:06]

• Background: Van recounts an altercation with Memphis Bleek on social media, linked to past Higher Learning discussions on Jay Z and sexual assault allegations.
• Van’s response: Acknowledges his own harsh reply to Bleek, reflects on how he was “super disrespectful,” and the importance of self-improvement in handling online disputes.
  • Quote:
    “That right there is a poor showing from me. I can admit that. I can’t apologize because I got dissed for no reason. And it was in reaction.” — Van Lathan [02:35]
• Rachel probes Van’s self-reflection, highlighting the need for mindful communication.
• Misidentification: Van pieces together that Bleek confused him with Van Jones, who actually has ties to Roc Nation:
  • Quote:
    “Bleek thinks I’m Van Jones... I have never been to the Roc Nation brunch... I’m not a Roc Nationer.” — Van Lathan [06:57–07:12]
• Analysis of Black celebrity culture:
  • Discussions on Bleek's loyalty to Jay Z — both hosts agree this loyalty is admirable but point out that such closeness can breed overzealous defense against criticism.
• Rachel on research:
  • Frustration that Bleek and Shannon Sharpe’s podcast convo didn’t clarify identities.
  • Quote:
    “Somewhere between Memphis Bleek and Shannon Sharpe, there should have been a... ‘Could it be impossible that you meant this?’” — Rachel Lindsay [10:28]
• Larger theme: How Black celebrities and their defenders sometimes stifle legitimate critique by immediately positioning critics as outsiders or traitors.

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2. The Complexity of Criticizing Jay Z and Roc Nation

[13:06 – 33:30]

• Fairness & responsibility: Van commends Roc Nation’s and Jay Z's contributions to activist causes—bailouts, charity, community support—while insisting this should not preclude fair criticism.
  • Quote:
    “Whenever I level any criticism of anyone, there’s always going to be a fairness that is attached to that. Always.” — Van Lathan [14:07]
• “Too Big To Fail”: The insulation Jay Z enjoys from public critique, especially in media and Black spaces, making accountability difficult.
• Personal experience: Van uses the example of learning from Diddy’s scandal that you should only vouch for people’s character if you know them deeply.
  • Quote:
    “If you are going to vouch for someone’s character... they had better be like fucking family to you.” — Van Lathan [17:02]
• Tidal & the culture/business tension:
  • Van admits he switched to Tidal out of solidarity with Jay and the “for us” message, but expresses frustration that Jay turned around and sold the platform, raising questions about mixing business and Black empowerment.
• Colin Kaepernick and the NFL:
  • Van criticizes how Jay Z’s partnership with the NFL was framed as moving “past kneeling,” which, in Van’s view, neutered a meaningful protest.
  • Quote:
    “What the kneeling was... was what American dissent is based on... and then Jay Z says we’re past it. Okay, can we talk about why we’re past it? Or are we just past it because you said so?” — Van Lathan [22:10]
• Billionaire Tables & the Trumps:
  • Discomfort with recent images of Jay Z and Beyoncé socializing with Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump at a Reform Alliance gala.
  • Both hosts debate: Is there legitimacy in the presence of figures like Kushner, who helped with some criminal justice reforms? Or is this a betrayal of what Jay/Beyoncé purport to stand for?
  • Quote:
    “Maybe the conversation isn’t about why Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump are at the table. Maybe the conversation is about if they should be.” — Van Lathan [32:00]
• Holding cultural leaders to account:
  • Rachel passionately argues that even as an ardent Beyoncé fan, she wants “to be able to question these things.”
  • Van concludes: If Black leaders aren’t open to scrutiny, “they aren’t leaders, they’re kings and queens. And that don’t work.” [33:13]

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3. Jimmy Kimmel’s Suspension & The New Era of Censorship

[51:41 – 70:10]

• Jimmy Kimmel taken off-air: The hosts lay out how conservative-owned networks and FCC collusion, under Trump, have effectively canceled Jimmy Kimmel Live for criticisms of Charlie Kirk.
  • Rachel explains how powerful companies (Nextar, Sinclair) influence which shows air on local affiliates, especially important mid a pending $6.2 billion merger.
• Changing standards for speech: Discussion expands to the FCC as an arm of executive power, and the ramifications for free speech.
  • Quote:
    “They’re gobsmacked right now by the fact that the President of the United States could bend Paramount, CBS, ABC, Disney to his will. They didn’t think that this was possible.” — Van Lathan [57:58]
• Authoritarian trajectory: Rachel draws a timeline of creeping authoritarianism/fascism: control of media, attacks on reproductive/voting rights, Justice Dept. weaponization, politicization of science, and now, open censorship.
• Cancel culture hypocrisy: Van and Rachel note that conservative outrage against “cancel culture” was always disingenuous, as shown by their own history of de-platforming and silencing opponents (ex: Kaepernick, Jemele Hill).
• What can people do?:
  • Rachel urges listeners to pick an issue they care about and fight for it, emphasizing community and small-scale activism.
  • Van calls for a more informed, active, and courageous citizenry.
  • Quote:
    “If this society is going to change... it’s going to be you who saves it.” — Van Lathan [77:41]

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4. The Danger of Lionizing Charlie Kirk and White Privilege in Media Commentary

[89:10 – 116:10]

• Critique of Breaking Points (Ryan Grimm & Emily Jashinsky):
  • Van and Rachel dissect a Breaking Points segment that, in their view, excuses or downplays Charlie Kirk's racist ideas after his assassination.
• Charlie Kirk’s own words:
  • The hosts play direct citations where Kirk claims prominent Black women (Ketanji Brown Jackson, Kamala Harris, etc.) “do not have the brain processing power” and only succeeded on affirmative action.
  • Quote:
    “What Charlie Kirk said is that we know that you’re not smart enough to do this on your own... you have to take a white person’s spot.” — Van Lathan [101:22]
• Rachel highlights media privilege:
  • She critiques the tendency of white commentators to minimize racism as “exaggerated,” noting only privilege can produce such blind spots:
  • Quote:
    “It really is a white privilege conversation... your privilege is allowing you to not see it any other way.” — Rachel Lindsay [107:09, 113:27]
• Turning Point USA’s culture:
  • Van reads from Ta-Nehisi Coates and details the explicitly racist and anti-Black environment fostered within Kirk’s organization.
• Bottom line:
  • Both hosts support denouncing political violence, but refuse to accept the whitewashing of racist legacies.
  • Van: “What do y’all want from us? I’m willing to decry, denounce political violence... but it has to stop short at a whitewashing... It has to stop short at that because if it doesn’t, my existence is minimized.” [116:10]
  • Rachel: “You’re telling us how we should feel.” [116:52]

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5. Additional Segments & Notable Moments

On Recent Mississippi Hangings
[119:12–124:43]

• The hosts discuss two tragic deaths by hanging, one a Black student at Delta State, the other a white homeless man, and link these to America’s legacy of lynching. Rachel urges independent autopsy and vigilance, explaining why Black communities cannot take official findings at face value given history.

On LeBron James & Drake “Break-up”
[126:25–133:58]

• A lighter pop-culture capstone: LeBron’s diplomatic “wish him the best” comment signals a friendship split with Drake. Van notes that when someone “wishes you the best,” it’s definitely over.
• Extended riff on why the two gravitated together—both were questioned, never fully embraced as icons, and may have bonded over being “close but not like the ones that came before you.”

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “That right there is a poor showing from me. I can admit that.” — Van Lathan [02:35]
• “Bleek thinks I’m Van Jones... I have never been to the Roc Nation brunch…” — Van Lathan [06:57]
• “Whenever I level any criticism of anyone, there’s always going to be a fairness that is attached to that. Always.” — Van Lathan [14:07]
• “What the kneeling was... was what American dissent is based on... and then Jay Z says we’re past it. Okay, can we talk about why we’re past it?” — Van Lathan [22:10]
• “If Black leaders aren’t open to scrutiny... then they’re kings and queens. And that don’t work.” — Van Lathan [33:13]
• “They didn’t think that this was possible... that the President could bend Paramount, CBS, ABC, Disney to his will.” — Van Lathan [57:58]
• “Our existence is minimized. And those messages are maximized.” — Van Lathan [116:52]
• “It really is a white privilege conversation... your privilege is allowing you to not see it any other way.” — Rachel Lindsay [107:09, 113:27]
• “If this society is going to change... it’s going to be you who saves it.” — Van Lathan [77:41]
• “When someone wishes you the best, it’s over.” — Van Lathan [128:41]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Topic | |---------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:41–13:06 | Memphis Bleek feud, misidentification, Black celebrity loyalty | | 13:06–33:30 | Criticizing Jay Z & Roc Nation, Tidal, NFL-Kaepernick controversies| | 51:41–70:10 | Jimmy Kimmel’s suspension, media censorship, Project 2025 | | 89:10–116:10 | Breaking Points critique, Charlie Kirk, racism & media privilege | | 119:12–124:43 | Mississippi hangings, lynching legacy, Black vulnerability | | 126:25–133:58 | LeBron & Drake friendship, pop culture observation |

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Tone & Style

• Candid and conversational: The episode oscillates between deep exasperation, pointed humor, careful nuance, and sharp cultural/political critique.
• Unapologetically Black: The hosts center Black experience and cultural context, pushing back on both white privilege and Black gatekeeping.
• Self-critical and open: Van especially models self-scrutiny when discussing past missteps or evolving beliefs.
• Community-minded: Repeated calls for listeners to get involved, stay informed, and reject cynicism or idol worship.

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Closing Takeaways

• Question your heroes: Cultural icons serve the people, not the other way around. Don’t be cowed by loyalty that becomes blind defense.
• Authoritarian threats are real: Media censorship at the federal level is no longer abstract—active engagement, vigilance, and community action are essential.
• Privilege distorts the conversation: On race and history, white media figures often miss the lived reality of those most affected.
• Personal responsibility: The fight for justice and accountability—be it in politics or pop culture—falls to all of us.

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For listeners who missed the episode: This summary delivers its central beats, illuminating current events, the slipperiness of power and perception in Black celebrity, and the urgent need for criticism—both self and collective—in a changing, often volatile America.

Transcript

[Van Lathan]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors, what is up? Higher learning is on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's Ivan Lakeland Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lynn.

[Van Lathan]

Gonna get right into it. I'm gonna have some fun. I'm just gonna let you know right now, Rachel, I'm about to talk for a while. Let them know, let you guys know. I'm about to talk for a while, okay? Because I'm gonna do something right here that I love to do. Talk, talk. That's one thing. But I'm going to take something and make it into a much, much bigger thing, which is my favorite thing to do. Take something and make it into a much bigger deal. This episode is brought to you by Paramount. Sylvester Stallone is back as the ultimate kingpin, Dwight Manfredi, in the original hit series Tulsa King, streaming September 21, exclusively on Paramount. This season, as Dwight's kingdom expands, he faces his most dangerous adversaries in Tulsa yet, forcing him to fight for everything he's built. Stream the new season of Tulsa King, Sunday, September 21, exclusively on Paramount.

[Ryan Grimm]

Plus learn [e-mail].

[Rachel Lindsay]

Your teen adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained, one who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New Teen, the new fragrance by Miu Miu, defined by you.

[Van Lathan]

I'm gonna set the scene. Some months ago, this happens. I'm on Twitter and I see a tweet or retweeted with my name tagged in it. And the person that retweeted it is Memphis Bleak and the cli. I don't remember what the clip said, but the clip said something like, fuck Van Lathan for getting that hoe or whatever. Something about that had to do with, like, our coverage of Jay Z and his sexual assault here on Higher Learning. And it. And Bleak said, fuck him or something like that, whatever. And so I responded, and I'm gonna be honest with you guys. What I responded with was super disrespectful.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What was.

[Van Lathan]

Was bad. Okay? It was like, I never said this about Jay Z, but you probably got too much come in your ears for dick riding or something like that. It's bad. All right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

On theme for you.

[Van Lathan]

This is the deal. This is the deal. I'll be honest with you about that. That right there is a poor showing from me. I can admit that. I can't apologize because I got dissed for no reason. And it was in reaction.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Can I ask you, do you say it was a poor showing because of what you said, not the sentiment behind it? Like, do you feel like you could have said it because you don't take back what you meant asking, do you feel like you could have said it in a different way?

[Ryan Grimm]

I.

[Van Lathan]

And we've talked about it on the podcast before. I, me, myself, I have to be better than that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

I have to always move in respect, always. Because I am trying to not set an example for anybody else, but I'm trying to be a better version of myself. We've talked about this before. We talked about this when we had Mr. Wilson on. And how I got into a back and forth with somebody. I'm always in these back and forths when I feel the smallest shred of disrespect from anyone and it's because of my shit, not their shit. And I should be looking for ways around that. And we all should be looking for ways around that. And I have to be better than that, right? The react, me reacting to that, to being, you know, dissed out of no reason. That's. That's part of it. I'm going to do that, but I have to find a better way to respond. Okay. That was it with that. A couple people picked it up. It wasn't a big deal. Memphis Bleak went on Club Shay Shay, where Shannon Sharp curiously asked him about this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, it was interesting.

[Van Lathan]

Curiously. That wasn't. Didn't become a big deal.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I. I told you. I told you. It felt like. Prompted. It felt like. Yes. He was said, hey, make sure you ask about this. That's what it felt like. Because it came out of nowhere. And I, as your co host, didn't even know you had this back and forth.

[Van Lathan]

We had back and forth. Yeah. It came out of nowhere. It could have come out of nowhere. Cause Bleak wanted to talk about it. Or it could have come out of nowhere because Shannon wanted to talk about it. Because I'm sure Shannon is. Probably has a list of people that he's displeased with in terms of the way his shit was covered.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And, and, and this is. I don't mean this. I'm not trying to. This isn't a diss. But the reality is I'm not sure what all Memphis Bleak has going on. So it might have been something that was recent, that was newsworthy.

[Van Lathan]

No, I think he's got a podcast. I've been around a podcast.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I'm saying you look for things to Talk about with someone. It might have been one of the recent things, is my point.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. I'm not. I've been. I'm not gonna act like I haven't been seeing him. I've been seeing him out there. I saw him on cam show. I've seen Bleak around. Bleak is. He's got a podcast. He's doing things. I'm not taking any shots at his career or anything like that, but this is what happened between them. Go ahead, Van Lathan. You had a back and forth with. Oh, quick one, you know. Cause he took a shot at the big homie, and it's like, you know, they showed you love, bro. I seen you at the brunch, seen you at Mad Rock Nation events, and you see Jay with a hiccup, you know, somebody falsely accusing him, and you want to take a shot like he's on that side, like, he's that type of guy. I didn't like that. Come on, bro. I didn't like that. He lucky it was on Instagram, because I'd have seen him. He'd have met the real me. He wouldn't have met Memphis Bleak. No, no, no, no, no, no. You got to be Bleak. Like, you got to be above. You got to be above that. But when it comes to that. Yeah, that's personal, bro. And that. That is no joking with that. Right? It's no play. Play with that, bro. Okay. A couple of things. I think everyone sees that and has a lot of respect for Oblique's loyalty to Jay Z. They've known each other for a long time. It is amazing to see people be able to have relationships that span throughout time, whatever, getting without getting at each other. That's cool. That's dope. I think a lot of people love that. I think it's one of. Honestly, Bleak's loyalty to Jay, I think, is one of his most redeeming qualities. It's actually what he's most known for. What he's most known for is riding for Jay Z. I mean, it is. It's true. There's nothing wrong with that, by the way. There is nothing wrong with being known for loyalty. I hope we never fall out. Never. I hope we never fall out. But as I was watching that, something dawned on me, and it gave me a terrible feeling within my stomach. Bleak thinks I'm Van Jones.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. I thought that. Okay, keep going. But that was a thought, too. But keep going. Keep going.

[Van Lathan]

I have never been to the Roc Nation brunch.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right?

[Van Lathan]

Ever. I have never in any way participated in Roc Nationing. I'm not a Roc Nationer.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You don't go to events.

[Van Lathan]

I don't go to events.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're not invited to events.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not invited to events. I've never been to. None of that. The showing me love. That's never happened. Not that it had to happen or it didn't happen. I've never been. I'm not a rock nation or there are people that are Roc Nationers. I'm not one of them. My entire relationship with Roc Nation or having gone to anything Roc Nation is I did Rel Carter's this Jay Z's nephew. A gentleman, by the way. A fantastic man. Great guy. Think he was recently married or got married some time ago. Congratulations to Rail. I did Rel Carter's podcast, I think, in like 2018. But I've never been to the Roc Nation brunch. I've never been to a Roc Nation charity gala. I've never been to a Roc Nation anything. I think, what happened here? Unless he's a fucking liar, which he doesn't strike me as that. I think what happens here. What happened here is he got a tweet that said, this person, Van something, Van Lathan is taking shots at Jay Z over this. And then he goes, oh, not that. Because we've seen him come to the Roc Nation brunch, come to these different events. They were all together. Van Jones is a Roc Nationer. He was with them for a long time, right? He was doing all kinds of stuff.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He's on their website now. I'm looking at it. So he's listed as one of their personalities.

[Van Lathan]

He's listed as one of their personalities. They rep him and work with him and all of that stuff. And so he probably thought, I know that guy's not taking shots at Jay Z. That's one of our guys. So that made him mad. So he tweeted that. And then he gets on the show with Shannon, he's asked a question, and he goes, we showed you all of this love, and Jay gets in trouble. And you act like Jay's that type of guy. You know, Jay's not that type of guy because, you know Jay Z. It's so hilarious for me to think of Van Jones being in Miami or New York and just having six Brooklyn walking up to him like, what the you on? You supposed to be one of us. And Van Jones is like, what the hell are you guys talking about? His glasses start getting all foggy and that's like, that is hilarious to me. But if that's in relation to me, he tripping because I never been to none of that. I, I, it's not that I wouldn't have gone to it, but I wasn't the type of person to get invited to that. I'm not a Roc nationer. I've never been to any of that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

So I don't know what the hell he's talking about as far as that goes. I really honestly think that he, a hundred percent is mixing us up, is mixing me and Van Jones up, which is just, man, when is this albatross of Van Jones gonna get from around my neck? When I was called Van Jones on two different occasions in New York by the same lady.

[Rachel Lindsay]

In person to your face.

[Van Lathan]

In person to my face. I'm walking up to cnn, I'm walking up to CNN and this lady goes, oh, my God, see you again, Van Jones. And I went, you did it again.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's because you're on CNN too.

[Van Lathan]

You did. This is the second time you did it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's the two vans. You're black men. You're on cnn. I think you guys should do something together.

[Van Lathan]

I fuck with him.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't even know if that would help, but can I just say this? I wasn't aware that Memphis Bleak is coming out with a podcast. I see it. It's gonna be called Rock Solid or is called Rock Solid. Shannon Sharpe has a podcast show that I know that sometimes podcasts you get so much information that sometimes you make a mistake here and there and you might say something that was wrong and, you know, you correct it or whatever. But that was two barriers somewhere between Memphis Bleak, as a now podcaster, meaning you research things, you say certain things on a microphone, you hold certain things to be true. Somewhere between Memphis Bleak and Shannon Sharpe, there should have been a. Could it be impossible that you meant this? Because let me say this, one quick search. I immediately saw it when first off, let me go back. When Memphis Bleaks saw the tweet. I don't know if the original tweet had a clip of you talking.

[Van Lathan]

It didn't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, so it just said that I'm going to take from that, that he did not do further research to actually see what you said, because to be very honest with you, on this podcast, I was the one who was more critical.

[Van Lathan]

I'm about to talk about that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was the one. So my so, And I'm so sorry, I know that you said you were going to go on a thing, but I just want to say if you had done your research, I I was the one who was more critical, not you. So I would deduce from that that he saw the tweet, retweeted it, assumed you were somebody that you're not. One quick research, I was able to see Van Jones is represented by ROC Nation. So you're mixing the two. Shannon Sharpe, as a podcaster, as you have a whole team behind you, the question should have been. But this isn't the type of interviews that Shannon Sharpe does. The question should have been, is it possible. I see that Van Jones, a lot of people mix them up like that. Is what you.

[Van Lathan]

I would have expected him to ask that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I would. I would expect Shannon Sharp to do a little bit more research.

[Van Lathan]

Do you expect perfection from people at all?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I don't expect perfection for people. That's a bare minimum.

[Van Lathan]

I wouldn't have expected. I would from Shannon. First of all, let's say two things from Shannon. I wouldn't have expected that just because I would expect Shannon to think that Bleak knew who he was talking about. Secondly, there is a chance that Bleak knows that he's talking to me and he just has a bunch of fucking faulty information. But I tell you one thing, there's no way that he thinks he ever saw me at the Roc Nation brunch, and there's no way that he thinks that he saw me at other Roc Nation events, because that just never happened. I've never met him before in my life. So. So I'll say this. Go ahead. My bad.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no. I interrupted you.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. So I've never seen him before. Seen him before in my life. Never. This is something bigger. And I'll come back to what the threat actually was, or I'm not even gonna overreact to that, because I did at first. Obviously, I went nuts and I talked to a lot of people, but whatever. I'm not even gonna come back to that. I'm gonna come back to. We'll come back to that part of it in a second. Okay, before I get to that, I wanna talk about criticism of Jay Z and Roc Nation. And it's something that we, on this podcast for a long time have eaten around the edges of. Now, if you've listened to higher learning before, you're going to hear a lot of things that you've already heard. If you're not listening to higher learning and you're tuning in for some mess, we are obliging you. And you're going to hear some things from me about the way I view this that might be new to you. But for a lot of you guys, this is me going back. All right, first thing, I'm gonna say this, and I've always said this. I know a lot of activists in activist spaces. If you know a lot of activists in activist spaces, you know people that have relied on Roc Nation and relied on Jay Z and Beyonce for very direct things. And those people have gotten the help that they've needed. I always say that. Bills paid, bailed out of jail, help platforming, all of that. Cannot take that away from Roc Nation. Some of the work that they've done, even some of the money that they funneled into various charities and things of that nature, cannot take that away. That is good work. There is good work being done by Roc Nation. That's a fact. Whenever I level any criticism of anyone, there's always going to be a fairness that is attached to that. Always. And you have to say that. When I went back and listened to what I said about Jay Z after this stuff came out, what I essentially said was this, is that Tony Busby is about to be up against a different cultural beast in Jay Z, because Jay Z is too big to fail. He will have cultural insulation. He will have insulation from the billionaire class. He'll have insulation from a lot of hip hop media that will not criticize him no matter what. And because of that, I said during my time talking about this, it'll be very difficult to prove this case. Very difficult. When you look at everything surrounding it, the case didn't look like anything. But more to the point, Tony Busby is going to understand that there are certain people that culturally, people don't want any criticism, investigation, or questioning, in a way. And Jay Z is one of those people, right? Roc Nation, and the whole thing is one of those people. And Tony Busby is about to find that out. Now, if people expected me to say, to look at that case and be like, that never happened. He's incapable of that. I don't know what the fuck you want. I don't know him. And if there's one thing that I have learned in Los Angeles is if you are. If you are going to vouch for someone's character, if you're going to say what someone is or is not capable of, they had better be like fucking family to you. I cannot tell you how many times in this particular city, someone has done something that I thought they previously weren't capable of. And that even goes back to Puff. I knew Puff not Super Duper well, but when I had the thing with Kanye at tmz, Puff reached out. Me and him were talking about me coming over to work for Revolt. All of that stuff, right? I. I did work on the revolt summit year after year, like, all of that stuff. Not necessarily talking to him, but talking to people that revolt. If you look from 23 basically on, you will see me on Revolt because I was a part of the culture over there. A video comes out of him rag dolling a lady around a hotel, and I'm like, what now? It's not that I would have never said that he was incapable of that. It's just that I was frozen and astounded like everybody else was, right? That plus of all the other stuff that have come out. So if anyone thought that in the midst of learning that life lesson, that I was gonna go out and be like, yo, somebody that I've never met, never kicked it with, don't know anything about them. All I know is the music that I was gonna say, yo, this person couldn't have done that. You're crazy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, like, that's.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not gonna. I'm not. I'm not doing that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right?

[Van Lathan]

I'm not doing that. And. And now. And also, even doing that, just vouching for people because of your parasocial relationship with them or the music that they've made or what they've meant to you, that actually hurts victims because that allows someone's cult of personality to be weaponized against someone that might actually have a claim against them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right?

[Van Lathan]

It couldn't be that R. Kelly did this. R. Kelly made the Ignition remix. How could Bill Cosby have done this? He gave us the Cosby Show. That type of insulation is used to hurt people, right? I'm not going to be a part of that. I'm not going to damn someone before evidence comes out, and I'm going to listen to evidence, meaning if your entire case and trial is adjudicated and you are found innocent of that, you're good with me, right? You're good with me. Sometimes. Not all the times.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Not all the time.

[Van Lathan]

Not all the time. But if. But if I. Not all the time. Not all the time because OJ Killed. But. But. But. Not all the time. But what. I'm more to a point. I'll say this about that. Once a trial has happened and I've looked into it, I'm going to be able to make a decision, given the information, about whether or not something happened or not. It was obvious when you got the information with the Jay Z thing, and it was bullshit. Obvious to me. Obvious. Obvious to me. But I want to go vouch for him before knowing that back to the point of the criticism of Jay Z and Roc Nation. This is a weirdly important issue to me, why I use Title on my phone right now. I've told you guys this before. I use Title.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Mm.

[Van Lathan]

I did not use Tidal because of any marketing that came out. Madonna getting up there, remember how she signed her title shit and all of that. Everybody, all the music people coming together. That's not what made me use Tidal. What made me use Tidal was a man that I've been listening to since I was 16 years old, stood on the stage and said, you got Apple, you got Spotify, you got all of these different apps, and not one of them is for us. And I'm telling you right now, remember when Jay Z did this? I'm telling you right now that we gotta bust our way into this situation. We gotta have something where the artist can be empowered, have something where the culture could be empowered, have our own stream insight, where we could put up music the way we want. It shows the way we want it, all of that stuff. And I said, you know what? I'm with that. I with that still. I mean, now I'm just used to it now. Title knows me better than I know myself.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know, but it doesn't. It doesn't hold the same weight.

[Van Lathan]

It doesn't. And. And that's what I'm about to talk about. If I look at the playlist, it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Almost makes it seem he just built up a big company, got all y' all to tap into it, and then sold it to Jack Dorsey.

[Van Lathan]

Well, this is the thing. If I look at Title right now, Title's putting together mixes, the misses that title's putting together. Throw some Ds, how you do that? Stay fly all. There ain't no future in your front, front MC breed. Title knows me, so I'm just used to Title now. I don't even know how to use Apple Music. And to your point, what happened was, after that, after I downloaded and went to this place and did this thing for a cultural reason, he then sold it for a business reason.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Now he sold it to you for a cultural reason too, by the way.

[Van Lathan]

Well, whatever. Well, so what I'm telling you is I don't know enough about business. I'm being for real. I don't know enough about business to know everything that went wrong or right with Title. I don't. But I at least have to be able to ask the question, right? I at least have to be Able to ask the question. Jay Z, at a certain point in his career took on a very direct sociopolitical stance. Right. Socio political stance. And it was natural. It was a natural evolution. The evolution was natural because if you listen to his music, there were always parts of his music that talked about the condition of people where he's from and the condition of black people writ large. It wasn't the largest part of it, but it was always about how he had to do the things that he did, how he would have been if he had a different lot in life. All of that stuff was always in there. Like it just. Sometimes it'll just be in the bar. Like the. On 99 problems. When he's talking about how he knows it's right and how he over the cop. That's a little. That's a revolutionary verse. That's a verse about you. And he's wrong in the verse. He got dope in his car. But that's a revolutionary versus a verse that says, I'm a citizen of this country, I know my rights. I'm not opening my. In the glove box or the back unless you got a warrant. You. That's a fuck you, policeman. That's a revolutionary verse. Revolutionary verse. Give him credit for that. So when he became who he became, I thought that that was actually a natural progression. And when I say this, I mean from 15 on and the black power portion of it, the. The embracing of the movement, all of that stuff. But then some things happened that I was like, huh? And I should be able to be like, huh. Without a group of people going, you have a vendetta against this person or against what the fuck? Or Roc Nation or whatever. There's multiple things we're going to talk about. One of them, obviously, the Colin Kaepernick NFL thing. We're kneeling, you guys. I hate to tell you guys this, but the kneeling was meaningful. Okay, I get it. You don't like Kaepernick, you don't like Nessa. I get it. Let's put that to the side. What the kneeling was, as much as it could have been, was what American descent is based on. It is based on the individual person, the worker, which is what Colin Kaepernick was in the NFL. The worker saying, I materially don't like my conditions at this workplace or the conditions in society. Watch what I'll do about it. And then it spreads. And then a conversation starts and then the President's involved and then the NFL is on the run and now we have the owners talking about Things one owner calls the people, inmates, all of that stuff. And then Jay Z says, we're past it. Okay, can we talk about why we're past it? Can we have a discussion about why we're past it? Or are we just past it because you said so? Can we just say? Yeah, can we just say. All right, well, cool. Well, I think that the NFL being in a position where they're culturally getting a chunk taken out of their ass is actually a good thing. And it's a recreatable thing all over the place. And we should maybe keep that. But no, it's over. They have him. He's with them. Roc Nation is with them. So it's done. And if you come back in any way, shape or form and say, should we talk more about this? Then in some kind of way, you're a heretic. I don't know what I'm supposed to. I don't know what I'm supposed to do with that. I don't know. It's not about Colin Kaepernick getting back into the league. It's not about any of that. And I'm sure the charities that have been funded by Inspire Change are grateful for the money that they've gotten. But the issues that were rife in the NFL remain. We've seen lawsuits about them. And what's happened is what that thing really did was allow us to move on from it. All right, picture. All of this has to do with what it is that we're talking about and how people react and respond to this and why people will be mad that you don't fall in line with someone who they adore. Picture comes out a couple of days ago from the reform gala, Michael Rubin, Meek Mill. Jay Z hosted the Reform Alliance Casino Night in gala raising money for criminal justice reform. Page six gets a picture. There's a table. The table is Jay Z at one table. Beyonce, other guests, and Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Once again, there is a chance that I don't know how things work. It's obvious that there's a chance that I don't know how things work. I don't know how things work. I don't know how things work. At the top of the billionaire movement, people. I don't know how it works.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Haven't been in those rooms. Haven't had those conversations. But can't I at least ask? Can't I at least ask? Can I at least say, why are we having dinner with the Trumps?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Can you also, Just because you're not in those rooms. Say, I don't think it's okay.

[Van Lathan]

You could, but there's a. You. You definitely could, but there's a chance that the answer that comes back is, listen, what you don't know is this is the way that this works, man. All of these people in Washington. Cause. Say something else about this. I've been in the green rooms at the chat shows. The green rooms are different than what it is when it's on live tv.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We talk about that.

[Van Lathan]

Talked about it. I've been on the green rooms and see the guy that y' all all hate and the dude that's against the guy that all y' all hate, showing pictures of their kids to one another. And then you walk away from that and you're like, wait a minute, What?

[Rachel Lindsay]

But can I push back on that? There's a difference. I feel like, one, it's in private. Two, it's not changing how they are on a microphone in public. As far as talking about things that they believe in and fighting for what they feel is right. It's one thing to be cordial and say, hey, how's your day? I've been in the rooms, too. Hey, how's your day? How's it going? That's what I'm talking about, then. Well, you're talking about showing pictures to kids if they're. I mean, if they're.

[Van Lathan]

I'm talking about. I'm talking about two people going, this is my fucking guy. And I'm talking about two people. I'm talking about having drinks, by the way. I'm not criticizing it. What I'm saying is, like. What I'm saying is for people that are outside of that, I'm saying that every single. When I go someplace and I get new information. When I get new information about something, I go, oh. So when I'm watching two of these senators on tv, and I see Mark Kelly go. A lot of my friends on the right, I see Chris, whoever. Senator goes, hey, this is my very good friend. But I disagree with my very good friend. I realize that there. There might be a level of society where these differences aren't as pronounced as we think they are.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You have friends I am sure that you do not agree with. They're on opposite ends of the spectrum for you on certain issues, and they're your friend. Yes, it's a yes.

[Van Lathan]

Yes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So, like, what's the difference in this situation? I mean, we're not going around saying, like, that person cannot be your friend. Absolutely. So I feel like there's a difference from what we saw sitting at Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump sitting at the table with Jay Z and Beyonce at Reform alliance than you having a different, like an actual friendship and relationship with a person that you might know on a completely different level, on a personal level versus profession where you might be a little bit more. Not, I'm not saying turn away from, but just might say, like, well, I know them in a different way. Well, that's not what they are. Well, unless we don't know, maybe they are friends.

[Van Lathan]

Well, this is what I'll say. The Reform alliance has a lot to do with criminal justice stuff.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And Jared Kushner is criminal justice. Yes.

[Van Lathan]

Jared Kushner was somebody that got the First Step act passed.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes, but federal, federal, federally.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, whatever.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, reform deals with.

[Van Lathan]

I know, but what I'm saying is we're at the risk of being pedantic about it. Like, Jared Kushner is somebody that's in the criminal justice reform space. So when people are asking questions about why he might be there, there are answers to those questions. He is somebody that's in the criminal. I want to be fair. When I, when I'm levying these criticisms, I will say this about Jared Kushner. Jared Kushner is a Trump. He's a Trump. And the policies and the worldview of Trumpism and MAGA ism, those things were in part constructed by Jared Kushner. And also Jared Kushner said October 2020 that Black people must want to be successful for Trump's policies to hurt him, to help them. He was criticized for minimizing the significance in the protests after George Floyd's death. He said that a lot of the people getting out in the streets and talking was virtue signaling. Right. There also, eviction cases through Jared Kushner's company. It's part of a larger Westminster management, part of the larger Kushner companies attempted to evict many tenants during the COVID 19 pandemic. Many of those tenants were from low and middle income households and disproportionately minorities, including black renters. Critics argue this had a disparate racial impact. That's Jared Kushner's companies. So what I'm saying is this, I'm saying that it seems to me that while Jared Kushner has championed things like the First Step act, which also, if I'm not mistaken, helped get his father out of jail. Right. He's also been a part of a worldview and a politic that is directly harmful to black people. So Maybe the conversation isn't about why Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump are at the table. Maybe the conversation is about if they should be. Maybe that's what it's about. Maybe that's the conversation. Maybe the conversation isn't a straight moral equation about whether or not Beyonce and Jay Z are good people. Maybe the conversation is about whether or not having people like that, that have represented that type of worldview there is effective to what it is that you're trying to do. Or maybe whether or not it's treading water. It doesn't matter how you look at it. It doesn't matter if you want to kick them in the ass for it or whatever. You have to be able to ask the question. You have to be able to have the conversation without people looking at you like what you're doing is attacking somebody for no good reason. It is a pertinent question. And if you cannot question your leaders. They are not leaders. And I do look at Jay Z as a. And Beyonce as cultural leaders, then they're kings and queens. And that don't work.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, it doesn't. So talking about the Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump being present, you're right. We don't know how it works in billionaire rooms. We don't know the details of it could be as simple. Forget being in billionaire rooms. We don't know the details of it, period. Don't know if. I mean, obviously Jay Z is a creator of Reform Alliance. Right. We don't know if they were aware of the seating chart. We don't know if they got there and saw the Trumps. We don't know if they knew they were invited. I'm sure they did, but we don't know. Right. So you have to consider all those things. But the reason I was going back and forth with you of. Well, his thing was First Step act only addresses federal and Reform alliance is about state and local. It's about probation laws. It's more. It goes deeper into it. That's the point. It's not on a federal level. It goes deeper into the problem on local, state issues, I bring that up. It's not about. You called it. You said you didn't want to be pedantic about it. That's not what it is. It's important to recognize the difference because it shows the motivations, which you alluded to. Or you said a little bit of Jared Kushner. Yes. Jared Kushner was absolutely influential in the First Step act, but if I look at his motives, it wasn't really about addressing crime or some of the issues related to crime or incarceration. First Step act doesn't address issues that deal with mass incarceration, driving force behind mass incarceration. It doesn't have front end reform. It doesn't deal with certain offenses, like drug offenses, that are viewed as harsh. It doesn't deal with that kind of stuff. And his father was convicted in 2005. He served 14 months. So this came after that. But the motivation behind it is that it was personal to him. We talk about things like this all the time, right. That the way you will probably see change with certain policies is somebody has to be directly impacted by the issue. Jared Kushner is directly impacted by a federal crime because his father served time. Now, he wasn't still there. But to me, I look at the First Step act as a guise of, oh, we're trying to help people out, we're trying to help incarceration. This is something that helps marginalized groups who have been been in jail for a certain amount of time, too long. But it's a step, but it's a guise because it doesn't really get down to the root of the issue. Reform alliance is supposed to be doing that. So to have a Jared Kushner sitting there because people will say, well, he was behind the First Step act, he was behind that, I think it's important to recognize the difference of what the First Step act does versus what Reform alliance does. That is not what Jared Kushner represents. In addition to him marrying into the Trump family and all the things with that, in addition to having Ivanka Trump there and what she represents as well, in addition to the times that we're in right now, having somebody like that at the table is problematic. And you have to be able to understand Reform alliance and what its mission is supposed to be versus Jared Kushner and the First Step act, in my opinion. And even furthermore, for Beyonce, like you said, we have to question these things. I have been deemed by some people to not be the biggest Beyonce fan, which I always refute. I went to Cowboy Carter. Cowboy Carter meant a lot to me when it came out, the timing in my life, the cultural roots to it all. Being from Texas, there were certain things that really just stuck with me when it came to Cowboy Carter. I go to the concert even more. So the video, all the symbolism in it of being black, being black in this country, what patriotism is, how people have tried to take that word and kind of push us out of it or say that we're not that. To take us out of country music, like all of that, the cultural relevance of it meant a lot. And so to have this album and what it means and to have this concert and all the video added to it, calling out certain people who are. Who have been attacking you, who are conservative on the right, affiliated with the Trump administration, to stand for all of that and have people have this pride. And then if he's sitting at the table. So I'm not saying Ivanka Trump is. Ivanka Trump is Trump, but she symbolizes something, and she did work in the first administration, as did Jared Kushner. And so to have them sitting across from you, whether you didn't know if they were invited, whether you didn't know that they would be at your table, there is something that is called free will, where you can not be there or get up and move around. And so, to me, I get disappointed when I see that, because I don't see how the two. How you can reconcile the two, how you can stand for something and bring all of this, but then be sitting across from. From this person directly across at a table.

[Van Lathan]

Right. So there's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And you have to be able to point that out. To your point.

[Van Lathan]

There's a point. There is a part of the First Step act that I do want to acknowledge, and that's the Van Jones portion of it. The First Step act is actually something that Van Jones had been trying to get done. He tried to get it done. So this is my understanding of this. There was a bill before President Obama that addressed things that was a better bill. It was a better bill than what it eventually got passed. The Republicans at that point would not pass that. They wouldn't go along with that. When Trump came in, Van Jones had, from what I know, he had, not only a willing ally in Jared Kushner, but he also had a Trump administration that wanted the political win of doing criminal justice reform to make it look like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Correct. To make it look like.

[Van Lathan]

To make it look like they were addressing a problem and a need in African American communities, black communities, black people, people. So the First Step act is something that Van Jones could get done because Jared Kushner was malleable to the idea, but also he had always been tr that criminal justice reform is Van Jones's thing. And he was able to get it done because the Republicans were willing to go along with the version of the bill that it got passed. And not only that, but the time that the bill got passed. And so there's a lot of things to that Everything. I don't disagree with anything that you say. Not at all. What I'm saying is this. I mean, the only thing I would say is that if you have Republican friends and if it's okay to have Republican friends, it's okay for whatever it. That part of it is making somebody the boogeyman or looking at someone and going, this person isn't who they say they are. That's not what I like to do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's not what we're doing.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not. That's what I like to do is go, let's have a conversation about the effectiveness of what's happening, why it might be happening, so that you guys, the people that are listening to this, have all the information that they need to make that decision on their own to make that decision for them. Because this is another thing that I think that sometimes gets lost in all of this. I think sometimes people lean into figures like Jay Z so, so hard is because that's what they want to be.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sure, that makes sense.

[Van Lathan]

That's what they want to be. Community is a conversation. It's a constant conversation. Community is not just taking in your neighbor's children and feeding them. Community is asking why they were out there in the first place. Glorious kids who you need to take in and give food and give water and give a place to stay. It's also saying, where's your mother? I need to talk to her. Gloria, what's going on with these kids? Why you got the kids in the street? Do you need some help? You working? They didn't have. You meant to lead a key. They didn't have the key. They're out there. Community is not just taking care of the kids. It's saying, what dysfunction right now exists within us. Right. That allows the kids to be where they are. It's also asking why Gloria, me, you and everybody else live in the same place for two generations that haven't gone nowhere else? It's a conversation with us. It's a conversation with them. I say that because there are some people that lean so hard into figures like this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Not just the Jay Z's, but the Obamas and other people like that because that is what they want to be. They want to be outside of community. They don't want to be accountable. They would like it to where they could do whatever they wanted to do and no one could question them. They want to be the big homie. They want to be the tip of the sphere. They want to be the spear. They want to be the one that makes the decisions that everybody else has to defer to. They don't want to be of community. They want to be something bigger. And more than that. That's not what I want. What I want is the people that are listening to this podcast right now to be healthy, empowered, and inspired and educated. And I want to continue having the conversation with them about how we do that. And I don't want to be anything more than them. I don't want to be anything that is above criticism from them. I want that criticism to be based in a mutual respect and an understanding. Okay? I want to get things wrong and then get better, consistently consistent evolution. But I'm telling you guys, the moment that we lose that, that. That is not a part of the way we talk to each other, then we're deifying people. We're doing. You don't. You know who. You don't question who. You don't ask questions about who. Everything that happens is within their plan and their sphere of influence and wrong or right, no matter how it seems, you must submit to them. That's God. Like, that's. That's the one that you go, oh, my God, my leg got cut off. Must be part of his plan. You know that, like, other than that, you gotta ask, yo, man, like, to the world, the doctor is the one that you go, did I have to lose this leg? Well, y', all, I have to know this is really what happens. Okay, what kind of prosthetics we got? I want the same shit from the space shuttle. So that in and of itself, the fact that the criticism that was levied on the podcast led to. This is a bigger conversation of how we talk about people that we've put a lot of cultural trust in. This has happened so many times, you guys. There are so many people that we've deified, made bigger than the program, made bigger than our community, and then we've turned around and just got that gun pointed right back in our face. And so here with me, it's love. It's love. I happen to believe. Happen to believe that most people, particularly black people, most people want the best for the people around them. That doesn't mean that they're doing the best, though. And that includes me. That includes me. Arrogant, foolhardy, pseudo intellectual, like Craven at times, with his ability to be honest with himself. Liar, cheater, all of these things hurt women in his life, hurt his family, hurt his father, cannot reconcile, to hurt disappointed people. All of that continuing to grow. But if you think I'm a look in the mirror, Every single day and hold my fucking self accountable. And I'm not going to hold the people accountable that we have entrusted so much to. You're fucking crazy. Last thing I'll say about this. But then we can move on. We spend a lot of time on it. Look, there's a part of that whole thing that I have to address, and that's the part where I would have run into Malik. I'm not a tough guy. Not thug. I'm not a street. I'm not. None of that. I'm a man. I don't have any scarier names. I don't. I have one name. Van Terry Lathan Jr. That's my name. One name. I don't have any scarier names. There's no scarier versions of me that you can run into. One name. Van Terry Lathan Jr. That name was my father's name. And like I do all the time, I will quote my father, brilliant man in the way that he was. He told me one time, he was like, son, the world will not guarantee you safety. When you respect someone, that's what you're doing. You meet a man, you open your hand, you shake his hand. You're showing him you don't have a weapon. You're saying, hey, you're safe with me. Like, let's talk, right? Let's talk. Let's have a conversation. You're safe with me now. In the event, according to my father, that your safety is not guaranteed, you have to take it. I'm not a thug. I'm not a street nigger. I'm not a real nigger. I'm not any of those other things. I'm a man. A man that is, when faced when a situation and is made to feel unsafe, will assert and take his safety. The end. No threats, no warnings. If I made to be in a situation where I don't feel safe, I'm gonna make sure I'm safe. And whatever has to happen, surrounding that is what's gonna happen. So let's be gentlemen. All right, we can move on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So four people confronted you on the street. You would or would not run away?

[Van Lathan]

Oh, shut up. Like, I'm gonna run. Like, I don't know. Like, if it's four, I'm gonna try to get one or two shots.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's funny.

[Van Lathan]

I'm sorry, Charlemagne, I love you to death. Don't let nobody talk to you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, seriously, that was that. I completely. I would. I would have run, too. I would have run, too. No, but I just had to. You saying all that just made me think of that. We won't even talk about the interview. But that was funny. And I'm with Charlemagne. I would have ran too.

[Van Lathan]

You know what I'm saying? Boom. What the you talking about? Why?

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I don't think he did. Did let him make him feel a certain way. That was funny. That was a funny interview.

[Van Lathan]

But I see it. It's four, y'. All. If not, if I can't run, I'm a fight. But if I see a lane, the problem is with me running is the speed is gone. So it's gonna be an even funnier situation when the athletic ends up in jumpers. Let me tell you what's worse.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That would be worse.

[Van Lathan]

Let me tell you what's worse than running. What's worse than running is getting hawked down.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what I'm saying.

[Van Lathan]

And then getting beat up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what I'm saying.

[Van Lathan]

And that's. So if I didn't run, it would just be because I would look at one guy and be like, that's about four, seven right now. I'm not gonna make it, so I might as well not make this video. But you out of your mind. You think I'm about to see 45 years old?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Or. Or.

[Van Lathan]

Or there's all. There's only one other thing that I can rely on in that situation.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What?

[Van Lathan]

Mind games.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No. Ain't nobody listening.

[Van Lathan]

You can. Let me tell you what you. Let me tell you what you could do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let me tell you what you do.

[Van Lathan]

You could be. You could do mind games. You could be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, for y'. All cool. I like the mods. Who gonna step up first? Give me a fair one. Give me a fair. When you got it. When you. When you. This is my street.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is a Marvel movie.

[Van Lathan]

This is my street. This is me being street. Yo, yo, give me a fair one. Who gonna give me a fair one? I bet y' all won't give me a fair one. I bet y' all won't give me a fair one. And then maybe. Maybe you get one guy to go, shit. Y' all step back. I give him a fair one. And then you like, cool one on one. I can handle that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Man. Ain't nobody talking like that.

[Van Lathan]

This episode is brought to you by Universal Pictures. Would you sell your soul for greatness? What would you be willing to sacrifice? This September, Experience the horror event of the season. Him. The new Jordan Peele produced horror film. It stars Marlon Wayans in the role of a lifetime as Isaiah White, the greatest football player of all time, AKA the Goat. Tyreek Withers plays Cameron Cade, a rising star quarterback who Isaiah takes on as his protege. As Cam's training accelerates, Isiah's charisma shifts into something darker, sending Cam down a disorienting rabbit hole that may cost him more than he ever bargained for. Directed by Justin Tipping and produced by Monkey Paw Productions, Never Meet yout Idols, him hits theaters September 19th. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Rachel Lindsay]

ABC announced on Wednesday yesterday that it.

[Van Lathan]

Was pulling Jimmy Kimmel live indefinitely.

[Ryan Grimm]

Let's listen to what Jimmy had to.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Say that got him kicked off the air.

[Van Lathan]

We had some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them, and Dwight everything they can to score political points from it. In between the finger pointing, there was grieving. On Friday, the White House flew the flags at half staff, which got some criticism. But on a human level, you can see how hard the President is taking this. My condolences on the loss of your friend Charlie Kirk. May I ask, sir, personally, how are you holding up over the last day and a half, sir? I think very good. And by the way, right there, you see all the trucks? They just started construction of the new ballroom for the White House, which is something they've been trying to get, as you know, for about 150 years. And it's going to be a beauty. Yes, he's at the fourth stage of grief. Construction, demolition, construction.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That was funny.

[Van Lathan]

So Jimmy's been taken off the air? Yeah, Kimball's been taken off the air. Next star was a. I don't know, Don. If you got to this point, it's an owner of local stations throughout the United States said shortly before ABC's announcement that it was taking Jimmy off the air, preempting episodes of Jimmy Kennel live for the foreseeable future. It. They said that before ABC made their announcement. Now, if people don't understand how this works, there are companies that own many different local affiliates. Those affiliates play the shows that come on at night. So I remember when I read the book the Late show, there were affiliates. I can't remember exactly the way that it worked, but there were affiliates That I think it was CBS affiliates that were syndicating Arsenio. Arsenio Hall. They were putting Arsenio hall on. That show was syndicated, so they were putting Arsenio hall on. So when David Letterman was making his decision about whether or not he wanted to go to CBS to start a competitor to Johnny Car, not Johnny Carson, was Jay Leno at that point, to Jay Leno, he had to have the. The guarantee from CBS affiliates and places like nexstar that they would play his show and not syndicate Arsenio hall show or something.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You probably had this at TMZ too, but we had this at Extra. So part of whether or not Extra was going to get renewed wasn't just, oh, it's a decision that comes from, you know, telepictures, Warner Brothers. It is. Do the local affiliates, Are they going to buy your show? Are they going to air your show? So, like, that's something I didn't learn until I was in tv. But that's an important thing with the nexstar and Sinclair Broadcast Group.

[Van Lathan]

So Next Star right now is in the middle of a merger. They're trying to merge with another TV giant called Tecna. $6.2 billion merger. Rachel, what do you think?

[Rachel Lindsay]

That merger needs the approval of the fcc.

[Van Lathan]

That merger needs the approval of the se. Of the fcc.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Not just the approval. Has to actually change what's written as law.

[Van Lathan]

Absolutely. Rachel said these include federal laws barring a single entity from owning TV stations that together reach over 39% of American households, and guidelines on the total number of stations that can be owned in a single market. So they have to change stuff now. Donnie, I sent you something. This is the chair of the SEC or the fec. Fcc. I keep saying it. Fcc. This is FCC chair or commissioner on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He is the chair.

[Van Lathan]

The chair.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because there's multiple commissioners.

[Van Lathan]

There's multiple commissioners. This is the FCC chair on Benny Johnson's show. Benny Johnson has a show and the FCC chair went on the show. So this merger needs FCC approval. This is what the FCC chair had.

[Rachel Lindsay]

To say on Benny Johnson prior to the Kimmel announcement.

[Van Lathan]

Prior to the Kimmel stuff, Prior to it.

[Ryan Grimm]

From the moment that I have become chairman of the fcc, I want to reinvigorate the public interest. And what people don't understand is that the broadcasters, and you've gotten this right, are entirely different than people that use other forms of communication. They have a license granted by us at the fcc and that comes with it, an obligation to operate in the public interest. And we can get into some ways that we've been trying to reinvigorate the public interest and some changes that we've seen. But frankly, when you see stuff like this, I mean, look, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. These companies can find ways to change conduct, to take action, frankly on Kimmel or, you know, there's going to be additional work for the FCC ahead.

[Van Lathan]

That's it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, it's not public interest, it's business interest that you just laid out with the nexstar. What nextar is looking for from the FCC and the Sinclair Broadcast Group, which they, there have been articles about them for years and how they are. They're from Canada, but they're affiliated with right wing politics. They're very infiltrated in the Trump administration and they also have come out and said because they own lots of television stations and mostly ABC affiliated stations and they said flat out they're not gonna, they're not going to air Jimmy Kimmel until he apologizes and makes a donation Turnpoint.

[Van Lathan]

So we should say that it doesn't look like the shooter is maga. So maybe Jimmy got that wrong.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right, but, but how would that normally work when somebody gets something wrong on, on, in print or media.

[Van Lathan]

You issue an apology, you correct it and then you move on doing your show. It's important to say that because it's important to say that there is a normality here that is being subverted. I think a lot of people are shocked about the time that we're in right now. Do you know why they're shocked, in my opinion?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why?

[Van Lathan]

Because they didn't think that this was.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Possible with the fcc, with all of it.

[Van Lathan]

They did not think that there were this many holes in checks and balances and holes in the central fabric of what America is supposed to be that someone could exploit them in this way. They didn't understand the total power of the executive. They had no idea about unitary executive theory and right types of thought that place all of this power into the executive. They didn't realize this was possible. They didn't know. They never had a president that leaned on his FCC chair to control American speech. So they did. They, they are gobsmacked right now by the fact that the President of the United States could bend Paramount, cbs, abc, Disney to his will. They didn't think that this was possible.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But you know what? I think it's not even that they didn't know what holes existed within certain branches of government. I don't even think it's that. I really, I remember Talking to someone prior to the election in 2024, it was during that summer. And like Trump doesn't believe in Project 2025, he says he doesn't know anything about it. I truly think people did not think Trump was affiliated with Project 2025. I really think that they thought it was so far right so out of there that there was no way that this is just something that people are using to as fear mongering for the 2024 election. So people don't vote for Trump. There's no way that the two are working together. I really, really think that people thought that and then they thought too. There's no way that a President of the United States, let's use the word that the chair keeps using public interest. There's no way that he would put himself above public interest. I actually think people were that naive when it comes to it. Brendan Carr wrote the section in the, in Project 2025 about the FCC, about social media and regulating that. He talked about media broadcasting. He talked about DEI within it, which we have seen them go after Comcast and ABC about DEI already he is, he wrote the playbook in Project 2025. And what happens, it's like people didn't notice. He was already within the fcc. He was already a commissioner. He was appointed to be the chair of the FCC. And what have we him do since November 2024? Follow the manual that he authored within Project 2025. It's all happening. But it's interesting that you say they didn't think that this could happen because I, it's. If you really look at what has happened since Trump has been elected and some of it before, you can go down a list of, I think people, the same people who we're talking about here, think we're exaggerating when we use words like authoritarianism. Authoritarian. You know, here I go with words authoritarian. Am I not saying this?

[Van Lathan]

Authoritarianism.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Authoritarianism. Here I go with the words authoritarianism. When we say words like that or we say fascism, they think that we're exaggerating. But we shouldn't be surprised at what's happening to Jimmy Kimmel. One, because Trump basically said, I hear they're doing this. And who did he probably hear that from? Brendan Carr. We shouldn't be surprised about that. But it's also been happening. You can go down a laundry list now. What's happening with Charlie Kirk. We talked about this on the last two podcasts. They are using his death, the situation as a catalyst. They are using it to further their agenda. They are using it to punish certain people in order to like. Trump's been itching to censor and stylist Jimmy Kimmel and he's using Charlie Kirk's death to be able to do it. This is an in for them. But let me just go down a list. Schools. There's a story yesterday. Department of Education is uniting with conservative groups to create civic content for schools. We've talked about Prager U. We've talked about what Florida is doing there. And other red states are following reproductive rights. Now, this is pre this election, but the Dobbs decision, Supreme Court, how they put Kavanaugh on the court, what they did with Gorsuch, Comey Bear, basically creating a court that is basically going to further the executive branch and Congress and their agenda right now. Today, breaking news. The Trump administration is asking the Supreme Court to allow Trump to remove Lisa Cook as the Federal Reserve governor. So he's attacking the Federal Reserve voting Shelby v. Holder prior to this administration gerrymandering. We've talked about it on this podcast. They're chipping away at the 1965 Voting Rights Act, FBI and Justice Department appointing pawns and soldiers for their own agenda to investigate people that they don't like to take away certain things that were placed by previous administrations. The Labor Department firing of the commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics because he didn't like her job report. Correction. Jerome Powell said yesterday that inflation is up and jobs are not being added. It's twofold. He's basically saying the economy is going to shit. The CDC Health Department firing the head of the cdc, politicizing science and appointing a basically a conspiracy theorist who has no medical history at all. No medical experience, I should say. And then playing into his base with the misinformation of vaccines. Now we're looking at what happened with Jimmy Kimmel even though free speech has been under attack. I just talked about what he did with Comcast and ABC and attacking dei, the lawsuits with CBS and abc. The Colbert show basically forcing. There's a new lawsuit with the New York Times basically forcing free speech or the press into submission to regulate the content that they put out. Also doing it with nexstar, also doing it with the Sinclair Broadcast Group. Jimmy Kimmel is just another thing that feeds into the fascism because it's fascism. It's not just authoritarianism because you are basically attacking all these different things that I named out in order to push forward a certain ideology to change this country and this society. That is fascism in every way of it. We should not be surprised what is happening, what's surprising to me a little bit is that we're not seeing some of these companies, company, because that's the press part of it, fight back when they could have.

[Van Lathan]

Well, so what I'm saying is, beautifully stated. What I'm saying is, I mean, everything you're saying is true. I don't think people thought it was possible.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't agree with you.

[Van Lathan]

I agree with you. What I'm saying is that people looked at late night comedians making fun of the president.

[Rachel Lindsay]

White men too, forever.

[Van Lathan]

Like making fun of the president forever. Savaging George W. Bush, savaging him, savaging Bill Clinton, right? Being lampooned Ronald Reagan, whomever, whoever you want to. Saturday Night Live, Gerald Ford's tripping over everything they've seen that these, these guys been criticized and made fun of forever. And what they did not know is that it was possible for a president to use a governmental agency to lean on them to change the speech that is on their networks. They didn't know that, that there's. There was. You could take advantage of mergers and capitalism and what all of these companies want, which is money, to make them make decisions about who gets to say things and make jokes on their airwaves. A lot of other stuff that you were talking about, right? There have been college protests forever. There have been college protests forever about everything. Everyone keeps talking about the Iraq war in the 2000s, as if we didn't get in the streets, as if we weren't going, hey, we don't want this. As if there weren't protests to that war and marches to that war and college movements to that war. They might have not been as pronounced as the Palestinian movement or the Palestinian peace movement that you see on some college campuses. And we certainly did not have social media to document them as much. But, but this has been happening, right? What you didn't see, at least that I can remember, is a president going, okay, if there is a protest movement on your campus, we will take the federal dollars away from you. Either tell your students what they can say or we will impoverish you. Either tell your comedians the jokes that they can make or we will impoverish your affiliate network or stop you from being able to do what it is that you do or drown you in lawsuits or whatever. Either control the speech or deal with us. I really am getting questions from people going, yo, man, if the First Amendment is in the Constitution and it protects free speech, how in God's green earth is it so fragile? Like, they're literally asking questions about how is this possible? How is that possible? And you're and your people are waking up to not even how government works, but the limits of their protection. And they are terrified.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And the. The only way to deal this or to combat this at all, getting back to it is you. If it's all about capitalism, if Sinclair, if Sinclair or Nextar wants $6.2 billion, the only way to deal with it is to hurt their pockets. The only way to deal with any type of crackdown on free speech in the free market is to deprive these companies of their currency. That's the only way. Yeah, that's the only way. Because you cannot in any way rely on the backbone of the Democrats. They're going to show their bellies. You cannot in any way rely on the morality of the Republicans. They are going to go with daddy. The only people in this fight you can rely on is each other. You can. You build it. You do the same thing to whomever that you've done to Target or that you've done anybody else. Or you swallow it. You, you, you, you, you take it. You go along with it. But. But man, you guys, we're in the shit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. No, we really are. And when people also, when you talk about people don't. Didn't know you could do these things, but you also. We've been saying it on this podcast before. There are three branches of government and they are supposed to be a checks and balance of one another that has been destroyed. That didn't start with what happened with Jimmy Kimmel. They have. That has been destroyed. Everything. Everybody answers to Trump. How can Trump say we're going to sue this person because he is wielding a Justice Department to do that kind of thing. How can Trump say we're going to get rid of this law or pass this law because he is a Congress. That. That is in his favor. How can he say I want the ability to do this and go to. And fight this in court because he has a Supreme Court that will rule in his favor and do whatever it is that he wants. Is no checks and balance. Which bleed. I'm about to use the word again. Say it for me. Which creates authoritarianism. Thank you. That is what you have when you don't have branches of government that can check one another. Can I ask you this?

[Van Lathan]

Sure.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The question is. So you're right. So this is our reality. Right. It just keeps getting worse and worse and worse. Truly unbelievable. I will be honest. Even when the Jimmy Kimmel news came out, as I listed, all the things that Trump has been, you know, inserting his own will and desire within certain different. With it. Within certain different.

[Van Lathan]

Department.

[Rachel Lindsay]

With certain departments. And.

[Van Lathan]

And that's Baton Rouge.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Anyways. I can't even take it seriously.

[Van Lathan]

You said he was inserting his dominance. How long. How much dominance has he got with 3.5 inches of dominance? You said he was inserting his dominance. By the way, he would love to hear that. Trump would love to hear that. It was dominance that he was in. Certain. He would love to hear that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I can't remember what I was gonna say. Finish that thought. But my question was to you. Oh. I was saying, even I. Despite all the way he's been inserting his dominance, I still was 3.1 inches of dominance. 3.1 inches. I was still.

[Van Lathan]

Wait, no, not the body shame. I know some of y'.

[Rachel Lindsay]

All, allegedly. I was still shocked by the Jimmy Kimmel news because it's like, wow. Like, we're really. Like, we knew we were in it, but wow, we're really in it. So my question to you is. So people who are listening to this or maybe that we're having conversations with are like, okay, this hits maybe in a different way. This is like a slap in the face reality where it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, we've talked about the hypocrisy. We've talked about, hey, it's okay when you do it, but it's not okay when we do it. In a reverse situation. You are now canceling people. This is. It's. It's like reverse cancel culture in a way, right? So, like, these things are. So there's cancel culture.

[Van Lathan]

There's only one cancel culture.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's. It's coming from the other side who didn't believe in cancel culture. That's exactly what you're doing right now. So you're seeing the hypocrisy, maybe in a more blatant way. Maybe your eyes are open a little bit more than they were before. You don't want to ignore it. So the question is, all right, here we are. Everything is money, right? That's how nexstar was able to make the decision that they did and force the hand of Disney. Because it's money at the end of the day, not your public interest. It's business interest. So what can the person sitting at home listening to this do?

[Van Lathan]

That's where we come in. First of all, I wanna say something, actually.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Listen to our podcast. Switch the podcast. Switch the podcast.

[Van Lathan]

Maybe, who knows? We're here today. So before I Get to that. I want to say something. The, the fact that they were anti cancel culture was always bullshit, of course. All right? They were ant. They were anti you speaking against them. They were anti you speaking period. They were anti you. They weren't ever anti Cancel Culture. In this entire time where the right was anti Cancel Culture. Jamel Hill got kicked off espn or not necessarily kicked off espn. I want to speak for my sister. They made it hot enough for her to where her relationship with ESPN ended up ending because she gave an opinion about the president. Had Cancel Culture, had cancel Culture been really this red line of the right, then they would have been like, you can't do that. Cancel Culture. We talked about them earlier in the podcast. Colin Kaepernick took a knee, cost him his whole career. Okay? They. They canceled him. That's what happened. He was canceled as an NFL quarterback. They canceled him. And the list goes on and on. They were never against cancel Culture. Sure, they were against culture. They were against cultures that stood in opposition to. To the white male orthodoxy of this country. Meaning if you can't take what you want, fuck who you want, and oppress who you want, then get the fuck out of my face and stop annoying me with. With the reality of your life.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's greater than that, though.

[Van Lathan]

Now it this not to me. To me, it's very simple to me. There is a central operating system that America operates on. And that operating system on is the white men make the rules. That's the operating system. And if you exist as any type of virus that challenges that operating system, the name McAfee your ass right out of the computer. They come in with a McAfee your right out of the computer. They come in there like you're the. You're coming in there. Oh, I would like to have rights. I would like to not be raped. I would like to be able to vote. I would like. And then you know what they do? They keep re upping on the software every four or five years with a different fucking name. Right? It's the same thing, though. And now the fact that we're having a conversation about literally taking late night hosts off, expelling kids out of school. This is everything they said was going to happen. At its worst, they said it starts here with you saying this, but it ends at you getting kicked out of school. It ends at you getting taken off the air. It ends at you getting up. That's what they said. This is the worst part of it. They said this is the natural evolution of you being able to march or you saying that Milo Yiannopoulos is not welcome at your school. It starts there, but let me tell you where it ends. It ends with you getting kicked out of school for having an opinion there at the end point.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

So to me, look, without yelling, real calm now. Real calm. Like real, real calm now. What do we do? And it's the tough part. The answer is more, more of everything. You guys, you the ones listening. You have to take responsibility for your society. When you interview someone, Rachel and Van, you have to be prepared in that moment to hold that person's feet to the fire on things that they are saying. You have to know everybody with a platform. You have to know. You have to know. I'm not telling you who you have to platform, but you have to know. You have to be smarter. Everybody listening. You have to be smarter, everyone. You have to be more daring. If this society is going to change, if you want your democracy, if you care about that, it is going to be you who saves. It going to be you. It is going to be you who can look into the heart of your side of things and go. Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer aren't up to this task. And everybody in black Democratic left who is listening to me right now. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I know that the structure of the party gives you comfort. I know that you're comforted by that. I know that you, that you feel good going to the parties and the dinners and you're around a lot of people like minded. Let's amplify this and do that and do that. They're failing and you got to be able to say it. And if you can't say it, you're a part of it. So there's a change in leadership that needs to happen. Not just leadership that exists in political structure, leadership that exists in cultural structure. And you, you need to be better read. You need to keep up with the news, you need to keep up with your local and state elections. You need to vote for the right candidates, you need to support the right candidates and when you can, you need to get out into the streets and disrupt the status quo. And I will be with you. I'm not telling you to do something I'm not going to do. I'm telling you that for too long I have made political and cultural observations and it is time to make a political and cultural difference. And that is what people need to do. And you can't wait. Yeah, we got about a year and a half and we've lost the whole thing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You think that. I don't even think that.

[Van Lathan]

I'm telling you straight up. When you come to higher learning midterms, we're not gonna get no more interviews with no more politicians. When you come to higher learning, we cutting your ass in half, and you don't have the right answers out of here. Like, so, like, what we. What. What has now.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, I'm serious.

[Van Lathan]

Like, when you come.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We would love for you to come on the podcast, but please know we. It's. It. We're asking the questions.

[Van Lathan]

Hey, hey, man, we ain't got time for this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Something I saw on social media, and I wish I could give the. The. The creator who was saying this, I thought. Because a lot of people will say, and this was even, like, before this, like, what can I do? I feel like I can't do anything. Or I feel overwhelmed. And she was talking about how. And I think we've referenced this before, how that is the goal of fascism, right? They want you to feel overwhelmed, exhausted, beaten down, like you can't do anything just to take it. This is it is what it is. I'm. I'm just one person in all of this. There's not much I can do. You can absolutely do, and I totally agree with you, all the things that you said. But she said something that I thought was interesting. It is a lot. And you can't. You can't be, you know, a master of all things. You can't, Right? But there is something that is under attack, because everything seems to be under attack that is important to you. So find that one thing that is important to you, and find and get involved with it. Be educated on it. Understand the ins and outs of it, why you're passionate about it, why it's important to you. And then what? Fight for that. And if we all do those things because we're all not passionate about the same things, then that is part of the fight. You don't have to do it all. Because I even feel overwhelmed. Like I said, I said. I texted to you. I said, my brain hurts yesterday. It took me forever. Big head, I got you. I got you. It's really out today.

[Van Lathan]

When that motherfucker hurts, it must be.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's a lot. But it took me four years, forever to sit down and really think about how I wanted to talk about this, because I was avoiding it, because my head.

[Van Lathan]

I get it. And just to that point, that's why community is important, man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, that's so well said.

[Van Lathan]

Community is important. I got gun. People in my community, we don't always agree, and there's a lot of things not to agree with when it's to it. But I have scholars in my community, and not every. I have people that are focused on black maternal mortality. In my community, I have people that are focused on women's rights. I have people that are focused on raising comprehensive young black boys. I have a community of people that continuously keeps me on the right track in understanding how to view my world in a holistic way. And look, those people exist in your world, and you might not know as much. Let me tell you what, I gotta do a better job of calling the wisest person in my. In my world. You know who that is?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who?

[Van Lathan]

My mama. When I'm looking to make sense of the world, there's one person that always lets me know. Well, son, let me tell you this about your father, or let me tell you this about society. Let me tell you what it was like in Baton Rouge in 1973, 1971, 1972, how we felt. Your mothers, your elders, the people that came before you, the people you share your household with. Boy, we need community right now. And we need to be in community with not just the most fiery amongst us, but the wisest amongst us. We need to know how to be able to achieve and endure. And so what we gonna do on this podcast? And to be honest with y', all, there's been a decision that's been made in this podcast a long time ago. I'll talk about that decision. The decision on this podcast was made for Rachel's chemistry, Rachel and I's chemistry, and our devotion to certain things. To be the thing that leads the podcast. Not always agreeing, but always coming at things from a certain worldview that is humanistic and people.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Van Lathan]

Right? So there are ways. And I'm not complaining, guys. We love the community that we've built, and things are going so well. I'm not complaining. What I'm saying is there's a decision that's been made for us to not chase a certain type of. Look. How about this? Real calm, as Dan was saying, real calm. How about this? I did conflict manipulation for nine years and the ability to manufacture conflict for nine years to look at a story and figure out the headline that was going to trigger people the most. To look at a headline and figure out the way to inject conflict into the headline that was going to get people to click. To be able to look at a celebrity, the rest of the. To be able to look at a celebrity. And pinpoint what was going to be a good TMZ celebrity going forward. Like, oh, this person right here is always good for some good content and some good. So let me make enough calls to where they work with me. They're one of all. I did that for nine years. I'm not doing that anymore. Like I'm not. God bless everybody. That is because entertainment and all of that stuff, that's a part of it too. Sometimes I just want to watch the bullshit for sure. And that's okay. But here we've made a decision. This decision that we've made is to try to attempt to be passionate and informed enough to give you guys something nutritious every time you leave. That's what we are trying to do. That's why you must like, comment, subscribe, share. That's why.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's right.

[Van Lathan]

I have to talk about a deep disappointment right now. This is in the same thing with the Charlie Kirk deal. Oh, okay. So you know, I'm a prop giver. People don't think that I am. I'm a prop giver.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, you, I would say you give too many on this podcast.

[Van Lathan]

I'm gonna give more props right now. I'm give props to people that I haven't had. Had the chance to have on the podcast yet. But I want to. I'm gonna give props to Clay Kane. I'm gonna give props to FD signifier.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You want Clay Kane.

[Van Lathan]

I want Clay Kane on me. Look, Clay, me and Clay Kane had a disagreement. Clay is a real, real important voice. Clay gave me the opportunity to go on his podcast and get fucked over by his audience.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know if.

[Van Lathan]

What was that? Oh, I went on his podcast after the comment. Clay is great. Clay is measured, he is intelligent, he is uncompromising. He believes what he believes whether or not we agree or not. We weren't going to always agree. He's light skinned. How could we agree? But they're. He's amazing. Clay, fd, Olay, Olay and friends. I need to go on. All of these people are fantastic people. My. The two podcasts right now that give me the most hope of any podcasters out there. The jam pot with JJ and the young bucks up there in Chicago. Insanely good. And Deontay Kyle from the Grits and Eggs podcast. Man, Deontay Kyle, these are the people that I look to. I was on the phone with Deontay not too long ago. He's younger than me and I was like, you know, how do you tell, you know, you got Bruh. I look up to what it is that you're doing. I have so much faith in it. All of these different podcasters that I love, that I go to, I made sure all of these people that I'm giving props to right now were El Blec Blick Pentas, my activist people that I love. The Tiffany Lofton's, the Philip Agnews, the. The Deray Mckelson's, the Alicia Garzas. All of these people that have been a part. Mark Lamont Hill, who. If you're not listening to Mark, you're not getting your daily dose of all of these people. I look up to all of these people. And there are some Watts, some. Some. Some white platforms that I really go to a lot. Sam and Emma over at the Sam Cedar, and another one I've talked about a lot. It's Breaking Points. There are four main hosts on Breaking Points. There's Saga, there's Crystal Ball, there's Ryan and there's Emily. There was a Breaking Points podcast that came out yesterday and people put this on my radar because they know how much I love the show that knocked me on my ass could not believe it. Ryan and Emily are on this. If you guys don't know who Ryan Grimm is, Ryan Graham is a voice on Breaking Points, but he's also in charge of drop site news. And if you are looking for news, particularly news on the Israel Palestine genocide, which Bernie Sanders has come out admitted is a genocide, drop site news is a valuable resource. It's an unbelievably valuable resource. Everyone right now is looking for ways to contextualize the assassination of Charlie Kirk in light of what's happened after his assassination. What's happened after his assassination is a tremendous amount of political and cultural animus and also crackdown on free speech and also an attempt to whitewash the legacy of Charlie Kirk. This was a conversation on Breaking Points with Ryan and Emily last night. About 45 minutes, this conversation starts to happen. And we're going to play this. This is like 10 minutes long.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You wanna play the whole thing?

[Van Lathan]

No. At times I'm gonna lean on Donnie to jump in and stop it. When we need to make points. Maybe we don't get to the whole 10 minutes, but at times I'm going to lean on Donnie to jump in. Donnie, me, you and Rachel are on the same. Are you with us, Donnie? You fucking with us? You fucking with us? We here? All right. Donnie started. This is from Breaking Points yesterday. They're talking about Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel and The response to the speech surrounding Charlie Kirk, his assassination and what he said while he was still here, here.

[Ryan Grimm]

Analogy. I'm not saying that he has cost him Solomon money.

[Emily Jashinsky]

No, you are not.

[Van Lathan]

Pause.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What did he say?

[Van Lathan]

He's talking about Kasum Solomani.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, K. Solomani.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, if you guys don't know who that is, that's somebody that Trump killed in the first Trump administration. And it just let Ryan. Let Ryan talk and then we'll jump in.

[Ryan Grimm]

But. So, right leading into the Iowa caucuses, Trump assassinated Kasim Soleimani. Again, this is a Trump move. Trump set up a peace deal. He asked Iraq to broker some peace talks with Iran and the irgc, which brought Qasem Soleimani, who was the head of the irgc, the Iranian Revolution and Guard Corps brought him to Baghdad. He flies into the civilian airport of Baghdad. He's in a car with his aides, and we drone strike him him as he's on the way to these peace talks. Sound familiar? We did it to Iran several years later. We just did it to Hamas a couple weeks ago. It's the most cowardly thing and counterproductive thing you can do. You put out a peace deal, and then your adversaries gather to consider this peace deal, and then you kill them. Cowardly. Disgusting. And so every Democrat put out a statement saying, I deplore Qasem Soleimani's life and work. He's responsible for the killing of thousands of Americans, probably American troops in the Iraq war in the 2000s, as well, as kind of a leading figure of building up the axis of resistance. And so every single Democrat said, I disagree with him. I hate who he is. However, Trump should not have done this extralegal assassination except Bernie Sanders. Bernie Sanders statement was clear and unequivocal. You do not assassinate figures like this. Like, this is not how we do things in the world. And you save your critique of the person for later because it's beside the point. The critique then justifies the killing in a way. And everyone on the left understood that in the moment. And everyone jumped on Elizabeth Warren and all the other Democrats who led with a mealy mouth. I hate what this guy stands for.

[Van Lathan]

Pause. However, now let's say, and since Ryan said that he's not comparing Charlie Kurt to Solemani, I'll also say that I'm not comparing Charlie Kurt to Solemani, but because he used him, I have to use him him. Let's say that all of that stuff happened, and then after that happened to Soleimani, people then Lionized him. Let's say that after that, people here in the United States flew flags at half staff and put his face back up on the Jumbotron and held very special episodes of podcasts and television shows. If they did all of that condemning the killing, one thing. But if they did all of that in his memory, celebrated him, would it be fair. Would it be fair for someone to go, wait a second. Assassination bad, terrible. But can we have a conversation about what it means to lionize, celebrate and deify this particular individual? So we talked about it on the podcast, what it means for anyone to celebrate a political assassination. Sure, we talked about that energetically, what it means and what it means structurally. Right. However. And the however is compartmentalizing that Ta Nehisi Coates wrote beautifully in Vanity Fair, which I suggest that everybody go read what it means to then pretend like someone is something other than what they were. Like what that means for us.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

Energetically, intellectually, what that means. What Ryan is saying right now about Soleimani is true. You have to condemn political assassination straight out. You have to. In order to maintain the. The structure of American foreign policy. What it means for us to be subject. Subject to international law, things like that. However, if in fact he people were then to celebrate him, which I'm sure there were people that were celebrating them somewhere, but if they were to celebrate him here in our society, would it not be okay to have a debate or a conversation about who that person was? What you're saying right there is that the bullet has the power to brainwash everyone. It's essentially like Superman's kiss. It had. You never saw Superman, you know, I.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Don'T know this so super.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, in the original Superman, you don't give a. Okay. It essentially means the bullet is the most important thing that essentially makes the most important achievement of Charlie Kirk's life, his assassination. That. That in and of itself we can allow that. We cannot let anything, including an assassin's bullet, take us away from our. Our ability to conversate and have conversation. To have conversation and contextualization around something. But they did not stop. They did not stop. Continue.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I think description from. From his perspective.

[Ryan Grimm]

Right, right. And he says the chief proponent of which is the President of the United States.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grimm]

You can't kill everybody who agrees with the president.

[Emily Jashinsky]

And again, like, this is. Donald Trump won the popular vote this time. Charlie Kirk was winning hearts and minds on social media. Like, there are a lot, a lot, a lot of people who followed that guy. He had a lot of fans. Donald Trump has A lot of fans. There are a lot of people who believe what Charlie Kirk and Donald Trump believe. And some of them, by the way, Sager and I believe what some of what Donald Trump and Charlie Kirk believe and is just the idea that you are. We've inflated. And Ryan, you wrote a fantastic piece about this. I always talk about, but elephant in the zoom about the overinflation of definitions that the left has engaged in. And I'm not again saying the right doesn't do it too. And I shouldn't even be doing this throat clearing again because a conservative was just shot in cold blood on a college campus. But that's a real problem I think that the left has had over the last 10 years is over inflating some of these definitions. Racism, bigotry, sexism, misogyny. Again, there are real, practical, literal definitions of some of those terms that can be applied to people on the right. Like, I'll debate whether I'm, I want.

[Van Lathan]

You guys to listen to what's about to happen right now. They're about to talk specifically about Charlie Kirk's statements on Kataji Brown Jackson, Sheila Jackson Lee and Michelle Obama. I want you to listen closely here. Listen closely.

[Emily Jashinsky]

That's, that's the argument, but it's actually, it's literally not true. Like, Charlie Kirk did not believe that people were inferior because of their race. He did not believe that. His quotes in context did not say that. And he didn't live his life that way. He worshiped with people of all faith, of all stripes and all different backgrounds. He had turning point outreach to young black conservatives, young black conservatives, Americans. He was like nothing but compassionate towards gay conservatives when gay conservatives, when he was in conversation with them. So disagree with how he handles those things, sure. But to impugn him and say that he thinks people are lesser than in like actual, like they're, they're worth as human beings. That's a different question than what you think the policy implications of his beliefs are. And that's what I think gets really, really dangerous.

[Ryan Grimm]

Yeah. And one of the quotes that I see going around all the time is where he said something like, if I see a black pilot, I'm going to wonder if they're worse.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yes.

[Ryan Grimm]

And I understand why everyone on the left sees that as a completely racist thing to say. You see a black person and you and your mind goes inferior. The point that he was trying to make, I'm not defending him here, but the point he was trying to make was because of the existence of, in their minds, quotas I don't think there are quotas, but let's say there were. Quote, in his mind, he thinks there are quotas where affirmative action requires an airline to hire X number of black candidates, whether or not they have X number of black qualified candidates.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's.

[Ryan Grimm]

That's in his mind. So his mind then says, oh, this person was hired to fill this quota. So what he's saying is affirmative action actually fuels racism rather than redresses racism. So I agree or disagree with that. Like, that's the point he's making there.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Right.

[Ryan Grimm]

Which is a different point than the one that I think people were jumping on him for. And when. And we with. He was coming after Sheila Jackson Lee and Michelle Obama saying that they don't have the brain power and Ketanji Brown Jackson, they don't have the brain power that they needed affirmative action. I think that's just objectively ridiculous. I think they obviously are extremely smart women. But what he was saying is that they said that they benefited from affirmative action.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Right. So you then are.

[Ryan Grimm]

Well, if you saying that, what you're acknowledging is that somebody. So you know, it's getting down in the weeds of. Of.

[Van Lathan]

And.

[Ryan Grimm]

And a lot of his following does have bias against black people.

[Van Lathan]

Stop.

[Ryan Grimm]

I think significant.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so we're gonna play Charlie Kirk's words now on Sheila Jackson Lee and Michelle Obama and Katanji Brown Jackson. And then I'm going to tell you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Guys, not Michelle Obama. Kamala Harris.

[Van Lathan]

Excuse me, Kamala. It wasn't Michelle Obama.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, I thought it was Kamala Harris. I could be wrong.

[Van Lathan]

I could be wrong.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, he would have thrown either one of them in there, too.

[Van Lathan]

We're gonna play what Charlie Kirk said, and then I'm gonna tell you guys. We're gonna tell you guys what Ryan is missing.

[Ryan Grimm]

Joy Reid and Michelle Obama and Sheila Jackson Lee and Katanji Brown Jackson were affirmative action picks. We would have been called the racist. But now they're coming out, and they're saying it for us. They're coming out and they're saying, I'm only here because affirmative action. Yeah, we know you do not have the brain processing power to otherwise be taken really seriously.

[Van Lathan]

Stop the goddamn clip. Okay, let's have a conversation with Ryan Grimm and Emily over at Breaking Points. Let's talk to them. We know, we know. We know you're not as smart. So the affirmative action part of this is him. This was framed on their show as saying they came out and said that they were affirmative action beneficiaries. Therefore, we must assume that they Weren't as smart. No, that's not what he said. What he said was, we knew that you weren't as smart. And the fact that you are a beneficiary of affirmative action is not a surprise. We know you don't have the brain processing power. Why wouldn't they have the brain processing power? Why? And by the way, as it relates to everything that they were saying in that clip, I wonder why it's okay to have a conversation that whitewashes and contextualizes Charlie Kirk's words to make him look better or to explain to us why he's not a racist, or why he wasn't a racist. But why it's not okay to have that conversation in general, what they said was, when the assassination happens, you should decry the assassination, talk about how it's wrong, and that's it. Then they went on to have a conversation. Yeah, about contextually who Charlie Kirk was. Only the conversation that they were having was one that was saying, don't listen to exactly what you're hearing. Listen to our interpretation of it. What Charlie Kirk said is that we know that you're not smart enough to do this on your own. And then he didn't stop there. He says, so you have to take a white person's spot. He did not say you have to take an Asian person spot. You have to take a Latino's person's spot. He said, you have to take a white person spot. The fucking affirmative action thing was brought about by Asian students. They were the ones that broke it. So he went back to his operating system. Right there is saying, we know you're not as smart as white people. So when you get there, this is the reason why. Last thing I'll say, they go on in this clip to say how it's important to contextualize the Trump and MAGA movement as a whole and Charlie Kirk as an extension of that movement. Because if you are preaching violence against Charlie Kirk, then you are preaching violence against everybody. That is maga, and that includes a large percentage of the population because they won a popular vote. Here's the thing, though. They then shrink Charlie Kirk's worldview to only him, meaning when he uses dei, he is talking about a specific issue as it relates to the qualifications of black people and something that promotes racism. However, we have heard the MAGA version of DEI be used for people who in no way benefit from dei. We've heard mayors called DEI mayors. Brandon Johnson in Baltimore, Karen Bass. How the fuck could you be a DEI mayor? Do people have to Vote like, how could you be a DEI mayor? DEI has been used to describe black people that in no way that we know of have benefited from any DEI policy. It has been something that the right writ large has been used to poke holes in the efficacy and the qualification of black Americans. But somehow when Charlie Kirk used it, he used it as an issue specific critique of race based hiring and admission. They are assuming the absolute best intention for him and they are doing it at a time when the most important thing to do is to actually have real conversation about what exactly it was that he stood for. That way, when someone says, we want to put a statue up of him inside the Capitol building or we want to lionize him or celebrate him at a baseball game where you paid your money or at a football game where you paid your money, you get to say, I'm not with that. Like, I'm not with that. I am profoundly disappointed, and maybe I shouldn't be profoundly disappointed in Breaking Points and Ryan Grimm and honestly, in Emily, who is normally a pretty consistent conservative, it's Emily.

[Rachel Lindsay]

White.

[Van Lathan]

They're both white. Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know Ryan is. You shouldn't be surprised because when I listen to this conversation, it's privilege. It really is a white privilege conversation. Because I don't understand how you can come to some of these conclusions without your white privilege signing. I mean, showing shining. There's something that was said about when they were talking about all the laundry list of things that people place on Charlie Kirk, and rightfully so. Racism, misogyny, sexism, homophobia. Like they're listing all these things, right? And then they, and I'm paraphrasing here, please go back and listen. But they go on to talk about how people exaggerate those terms and how they're not really focused on, like the definition of it. This is where I say, that's your privilege talking. Racism is an action and it's not an exaggeration. And to reduce it to a definition and people not using it. Right. Shows me that you don't fully grasp. And how could you as white people what racism is? Truly, when I listen to that conversation, I. But you wouldn't water down what Charlie Kirk was saying. You wouldn't speak on behalf of the group of the very people that he's offending. You would just report, really? And say this. This is what was said and this is what people are saying about it. To report and give your opinion. It diminishes, in my opinion, what black people feel and what the real problem is. And the only way that you are capable of doing that is to assert your own privilege. It is plain as day when you say that somebody has. Doesn't possess or have the brain processing power as white people. Right?

[Van Lathan]

That.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's the phrase, the brain processing power.

[Van Lathan]

I want to say straight up, we know you don't have the brain processing power.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What does that say? That you are inferior to white people. Because he goes on to say, then you had to steal a white person's job to get it. Meaning you. Your brain as a black woman is inferior to white people.

[Van Lathan]

Brilliant black women. Like we're talking about Ketanji Brown, Jack.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And like not every. You don't have to go to school to be brilliant.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not talking about that. I'm just about the fact that she is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, but I'm making a point. You don't have to go to school to be brilliant. But if. If we're just using that. I saw something on social media where this guy uses AI to break down the current Supreme Court and rank them based on a certain thing. It was brilliant. I wish I had it. I think I have it saved. And if I do, I'll send it to you, Donnie. Of how. Of who was deserving based on a scale, based on their experience with work, their internships, their school, their grade, all of it. Number one was Sotomayor. Number two, Ketanji Brown Jackson. And it's a beautiful list of explaining it. So when I. And. And I. And I don't. And it wasn't just based off education. And I'm not. I'm not saying you can't be brilliant. You don't have. You don't have to go to school to be brilliant. But when I listen to the things that Charlie Kirk says, who kind of fought against that, it's because he did not have the resume, the experience, the credibility that these very people that he tears down. Brown did. Let's just say that Ketanji Brown Jackson got into Harvard on affirmative action. Did affirmative action let her graduate Magnum cum laude? No, it didn't. She.

[Van Lathan]

Cum laude. Which one is it, Donnie? Is it Magnum cum? I don't want her to.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's Magnum cum laude. Right.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, go ahead. I'm sorry, you're right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no. Leave it in. Leave it in. Whatever. What is wrong with you? My point is she graduated in that way on her own, her own merits. Her own. Because she had the brain processing power to. To.

[Van Lathan]

To do it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

To do it. And this is where. When you going back to what you said about Memphis Bleak and how you wish you hadn't responded. I've been having conversations. You said you were above responding in the way that you did on Twitter, not you wish you hadn't responded.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, you don't. I don't ever want to be in a situation where I'm being terribly disrespectful.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I will say that I have. I should adopt that as well. Because when I have had black women in my comments, arguing on behalf of Charlie Kirk and telling me how he did so many things for the black community and every time I say I am willing to learn, maybe I don't know. Can you please provide me an example? They never can. They never can. And when I give them the quote about what he said about black intelligent, prominent women, they say, yeah, that one, that one I don't really understand. But this, this and this off sub. You know what? Maybe he was right. Maybe you don't possess the brain power processing. I should be above that. And if you're listening, I apologize for that. But it's just so obvious. My point getting back to Emily and Ryan, that he is saying black women are inferior and in no way can black women ever compare to white people because if they are, if they do reach a status in a profession or success in some kind of way, they must have stolen that from a white person. That is the most racist thing.

[Van Lathan]

It exists for white people. Those jobs, those brain it assumes to say we know you have to steal something that was for a white person. You don't have the brain processing power. It assumes that those things exist for white people.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And the fact that you can't recognize how problematic that is on its face, that that amounts to racism because maybe it's not a discriminatory act and so you don't see it that way. But what he is saying is perpetuating racist stereotypes that allow people to act in ways towards black women based on that belief. That is racism. And racism is an act. And to me, I, I, I. The only thing I can conclude by when I hear this whole conversation between the two of them is your privilege is allowing you to not see it any other way.

[Van Lathan]

I get it. I want to read something you're. I want to read something here. I want to read something from Ta Hasek Coates and his, his Charlie Kirk piece because he didn't just talk about Kirk himself and some of the things that he said and stood for. He also talked about the climate at Turning Point usa, the climate. There are a million things that we could say regarding Charlie Kirk that are Islamophobic, that are transphobic, homophobic, all of those things. But we. There's something else that stuck out to me. He talked about just how other people at Turning Point spoke. This from Tallahassee Coates Kirk's bigotry was not personal but extended to the institution that he founded, Turning Point usa. Crystal Clanton, the group's former national field director there, once texted a fellow Turning Point employee, I hate black people, like them all. I hate blacks. End of story. One of the group's advisors, Rip McIntosh, once published a newsletter featuring an essay from a writer that said blacks had become socially incompatible with other races and that black culture was unfixable and crime ridden. Mess. In 2022, after three Black football players were killed at another college, Meg Miller, president of Turning Points chapter at the University of Missouri, joked in a social media matches, if they would have killed four more niggers, you would have had the whole week off. What do y' all want from us?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, they don't want us to.

[Van Lathan]

Like what? Like, what do you, what do y' all want from us, man? Like, seriously, like, what do you, what do y' all want from us? Like, it. Like, this is the organization.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This so a breeding ground for racism.

[Van Lathan]

Do you remember what Andrew Gillum said to Ron DeSantis in the debate 2018?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No.

[Van Lathan]

He said, I'm not saying Ron DeSantis is a racist. There's a bar. Everybody read Mehdi Hassan's book, Win every argument. Everybody read it. It's been helping me. I'm not saying Ron DeSantis is a racist. I'm saying that the racists think he's a racist.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right, right, right, right.

[Van Lathan]

The races were at home, are at home at Turning Point.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. It was a breeding ground.

[Van Lathan]

And that's not to say what I'm trying to say is because, like, when we look at this, what do you guys want from us? I'm willing to have the conversation about how we heal politically, about how we move on. I'm willing to decry, denounce, political violence, all of that, but it has to stop short at a whitewashing or lionizing or this weird white splaining of things that I can hear with my own ears. It has to stop short at that because if it doesn't, my existence is minimal, minimized. And those messages are maximized.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

It makes them stronger.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. You're telling us how we should feel. And I want to address one more thing about what they said, because I think you're better than this. Like this Emily and Ryan, this is such a weak argument, but you. But we shouldn't be shocked because you already said, I agree with some things that Charlie Kirk says. So I'm gonna go ahead and say.

[Van Lathan]

That, well, Emily's talking about her. And Soccer, not to cut you off, but Emily.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Emily's talking about her. Emily said. Those are the conservatives Emily said that she agrees with somewhat. Charlie Clark said. So maybe the art. The things that you're bringing up in this very conversation are one of the things that you agree about. That's the only thing I can conclude from that. But it is such a weak argument to say, well, oh, he. He was in circles with black people. He was in circles with gay people. We gotta address this. You said yourself, black conservatives, gay conservatives. He didn't give a fuck about them being. He wasn't with them because they were black. He was with them because they were conservatives who were furthering his message, period. You know that. It does not take a genius to figure that out. He was not hanging around, surrounding himself with black people and infiltrating himself in the black community with black issues and black culture. That is conservatism. That is what he had infiltrated himself or surrounded himself with. And if you happen to be gay and if you happen to be black and you were conservative, then that is what he was fine with and okay with nothing to do with who you were as a black person or as a gay person. That's it. And I cannot believe that you even offered that as an example to justify something that Charlie Kirk cared about. Everybody. I was not a racist.

[Van Lathan]

I would love to have Ryan Grimm on the podcast Monday. If it's possible. I'm gonna have to reach out. I would love to have Ryan Grimm on the podcast to have this conversation, because, you know, it. I. I'm a devout listener of breaking points. When it's Crystal and Sagar or when it's Ryan and Emily. I subscribe to drop site news, pay for drop site news. It is such a valuable news source to me. It is. It is. I'm gonna be honest with you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not saying it's not.

[Van Lathan]

I was legitimately like, God damn, what the fuck is going on? And you know what? Shout out to the people on Twitter that put this on my radar because I. I put. We put this in late.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, yeah, we put this in, like.

[Van Lathan]

Because I just heard it and I think sent it to Donnie this morning. But people know how much I respect the platform, and they wanted us to be able to talk about this and have a conversation of it. They knew how much packages by Expedia you were made to occasionally take the hard route to the top of the Eiffel Tower. We were made to easily bundle your trip expedia made to travel flight inclusive packages are atoll protected. Two men found that you guys we're gonna give you one thing at the end of the podcast that's a little lighter but we are where we are. Two men found hanging from trees in Mississippi on the same day. I want to acknowledge this. The initial tragedy hit at Delta State. Donnie, thank for the. Thank you for the copious notes here. The initial tragedy hit at Delta State University in Cleveland, Mississippi about 7:05am Campus police found the body of 21 year old university student Trey Reed hanging from a tree by the pickleball courts. School's director of public safety Mike Peeler has said that there is video of the incident. Hours earlier, at 1:30pm Police in Vicksburg received a call that the body of a male was discovered hanging from a tree in a densely forested area off the Ameristar Casino. Coroner identified the deceased as a white male, Corey Zutekis. Zutekis was homeless. No evidence indicating foul play has yet been released by authorities in either case. So you have the killing of or the hanging of a homeless man, which Brian Kilmeade on Fox News called for the killing of homeless people. He still has his job.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Still has his job.

[Van Lathan]

Brian, Kill me from Fox said that homeless people should be systemically murdered, systematically killed. He has his job. You can see him on Fox and Prince.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And Fox News was not reprimanded in any kind of way either.

[Van Lathan]

There. Just one more time. Brian Kilby advocated for the murder of homeless job. Obviously with the climate that we're in right now, it cannot be summarily dismissed.

[Rachel Lindsay]

For people who might be saying, oh, the police already came forward and the police have said that there was no foul play. There's no evidence of, you know, broken bones or that, you know, maybe he was fighting or something like that. That the history of lynching period in this country and specifically the history of lynching in the state of Mississippi, I mean in between 2000 and 2021, at least eight Black men were found hanging in Mississippi. All of those were ruled a suicide. The history in this country with black people in lynching is something is the reason you cannot ignore or just take what's given to you. I hope that this family. The autopsy report has not come out yet. It hasn't been released. I hope this family does. An independent gets an independent Autopsy report.

[Van Lathan]

The families call for one.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Great. You know, we just can't sit on it. Like, I feel like I've seen people saying, oh, well, the police come. Came out. We can't just sit on it. You can't take. Take it for what they're giving you. You have to actually seek the information out. We don't know. We don't have enough information. But what I do know is that a separate investigation can be done, right? It should be done.

[Van Lathan]

It should be done. A separate investigation should be done. The real, not the real. First of all, the story here is the story which is the tragedy of the death of these two men. The history of this country and the moment that we're in right now means that there is an assumption, which is why we talked about, you know, Charlie Kirk and the history of black political assassination. I want to say something real quick. I did name a couple of assassinations in there that weren't like political. Political in nature. Andrew Cunanan and then the killing of John Lennon. So that was wrong on me. I correct myself and hold myself accountable. I'll be better. But the point that there's a feeling of vulnerability amongst black people right now, particularly black people in places like Mississippi, Louisiana and in the south, where there still seems to be this shroud. This shroud, this cover of racial danger that is inextricable from the culture there, particularly in places that there's this shroud of it. I'm from Louisiana. A lot of people in Mississippi. When you go down there, it feels the same. Like, I don't know how to explain it. It's like I'm back home in Baton Rouge, and Baton Rouge has changed a lot. And the areas surrounding Baton Rouge has changed. Have changed a lot. But while I'm in my dad's hometown, Maryguin, it feels just like it felt when I was a little boy. It feels the same. You look around and you see the same dynamics at play. And this doesn't feel like something that is outside the realm of possibility in terms of the motivations. We are not going to jump to any conclusions here. We're gonna wait till this shakes out. But I think the response to this is indicative of just the vulnerability that black people feel at this time. That's what the response to it is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, absolutely. At this time. But then also because, like you said, we're not assuming anything but just the nature of. Well, just the history and. And the energy that's there. I mean, my friend just posted. She's traveling from Texas to Florida and she just posted a story about how she was in some random gas station bathroom in the south, and her children were told that they weren't allowed to use it. Well, they didn't say that. They said that the bathroom wasn't working. And come to find out she's seeing other people use the bathroom. This is Terrica Cromartie. I want to say the name. Cromartie family. This happened to. And they were told that the bathrooms weren't working. They're seeing white people use the bathrooms. She goes in there herself, like, has it like a back and forth. Goes in there, sees the bathrooms are completely working. They didn't want black people using the bathroom. She goes online to write something about this gas station. I don't know if it's a gas station or whatever. Like a. I don't want to name a place that it's not, but, like, one of those places, convenience stores. And she realized she's not alone. There are a number of black families having these same issues. You know, I saw on social media, you're from Louisiana. I'm from Texas. Vitor, Texas. Extremely racist town outside of Beaumont. There was these social media guys going through, trying to do this joke of getting people to sign a petition because black families don't really live in the town. And the things the white people were saying were wild. Ready to fight them over black people being a part of their town. Like, it's still there. It's not as loud. It's not as prominent. Yes, yes, we've made progress, but it's still there. And that's why that feeling feels that way.

[Van Lathan]

There's been an update and one of the most important stories of our time, and that story is the current climate of the relationship between LeBron James and Drake.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, Lord.

[Van Lathan]

What are you talking about?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is this something? Go ahead. Come on. You're right. We have to. We've talked about it before.

[Van Lathan]

Donnie, could you please play?

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is breaking news.

[Van Lathan]

Breaking news has just happened. LeBron. Who's interviewing LeBron here? I don't even know who's interviewing him. Who was it?

[Ryan Grimm]

What's this guy's name? I'm about to date myself.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Please date Norman.

[Van Lathan]

Speedy. Speedy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Date yourself. You don't know Speedy.

[Van Lathan]

You don't know Speedy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Donnie, that's not dating yourself.

[Van Lathan]

Let me tell y' all something right now. Speedy the man. Speedy is the man. I'm so happy for Speedy. Speedy is the man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I tried to get Speedy to come on the podcast, to come on this podcast. I was like, come on the podcast. Come on. He was like, I really don't. And he's right. He really doesn't do interviews.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, he doesn't.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And, like, it's part of the craft, which I respect. Now we. I was like, walking. I was like, speedy, come on. He's like, what's up? What's up? It's like, come on. The podcast. You should come on. We would love to have a conversation with you. You. And then he said it, and I'm like, makes sense.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Be the guy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because you do what you do. Yeah. It's a. It's a line drawn. I respect it. Plus, but I tried.

[Van Lathan]

I think that that's good. I think it's good for Speedy not to do interviews, because when you are the interviewer, and he's gotten a lot, a lot.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He's great.

[Van Lathan]

A lot of success from being the interviewer. You don't want to give people any reason to be like, fuck Speedy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's so smart.

[Van Lathan]

So it's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I respect it. I was like, you got a point.

[Van Lathan]

But, Donnie, LeBron James was talking to Speedy, and this is how the conversation went. Someone you have been friends with seemingly forever. Drake, are y' all cool? What's the status there? Is this someone you always have love for? Always, always, always wish him the best? Obviously. Different places right now. Currently, he's doing his thing, I'm doing mine. But as always, love, for sure. Damn, man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He didn't really give you much. It was a very PC answer.

[Van Lathan]

I'mma tell y' all something right now. When a wish you the best, it's over.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Be well.

[Van Lathan]

That's it, man. Wish you the best is a polite way of saying this. I hope he don't die, basically. I'm serious. Somebody. Somebody wish them the best. Somebody wish you the best. They might really wish you the best, but that best ain't going to involve them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I haven't seen the rest of the interview. Maybe it hasn't dropped yet. But I think we know that LeBron James and Drake are in wish you the best territory right now. I think we know that. I think the question is why? And I don't know if that full interview is out. I'm sure Speedy will ask, because he's just about the best in the business at that. But the question is, what made them drift off the path? Because really, I could make an argument that for a long time, LeBron James and Drake were basically the same person. The same person they were. There was not a more understanding, understandable celebrity friendship than Lebron James and Drake, they were both unquestioned, the biggest thing in their discipline of their generation. Say what you say, whatever you want to say. Drake is the biggest rapper of his generation. LeBron James, the biggest basketball player of his generation. However, they consistently both had people poking holes, not at their success, but at their standing, at their Legacy. They both, LeBron James and Drake took just enough losses and did just enough stuff to people for people to be like, you're not like the ones that came before you. You're not. You're not. You're not like, you're the biggest. But you're not Jay, you're not Nas, you're no Tupac, you're no Big. You're not. You're not one of those guys you want. You're not one of those guys that had this sort of cultural mastery to where it seemed like we could completely connect with them and completely get them. You could. They made just enough mistakes to other them a little bit. LeBron James undebatably has had the most successful basketball career of all time. He's 40 years old. I'm trying to do the agility drills. LeBron above the rim, doing all kinds of stuff, right? Four and six in the finals or whatever it is, disappear. Fourth quarter, Maverick series, struggles at these different times in these big moments. Just enough there for you to be like, all of that's true, undeniable. You're not quite like the guys we used to have. You're something different.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's cause of us. You know, I've said this before. We millennials are. I think 10 years from now, the conversation will be different.

[Van Lathan]

It probably will be. But what I'm saying is it. And it probably should be, we should be able to look at both guys and appreciate them for the greatness that they've been able to achieve. Doesn't mean that. That we haven't been able. That we shouldn't be able to look at them and, like, have these conversations about them as basketball players or rappers or whatever, Right?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Shouldn't be able. We have to be able to do that, right? But with Drake, it's like, all right, there's the Ghost Rider thing, then there's the cultural piece, then there's all of these other things, Just enough stuff, some unprecedented stuff with him to be like, the talent is sublime. Like, Drake is a fantastic talent. Talent, fantastic talent. But there's just enough stuff there for us to be able to, like, look at him and ask all of these questions. He. I feel like he knows it now when you listen to him talk. He derides cultural purism. He derides the hip hop purists. Because he probably feels like these are the people that aren't able to accept his greatness as it currently exists. Right. Get all of that. Them being pals. It more seemed like it was a mini support group than it was a friendship. Like Debbie on the phone, like, hey, man, I scored 40. I won the championship. They said it was a bubble. Champ, what you got? I went number one again. And they telling me about some Kendrick Lamar, Jay Z, Tupac, B. What the. Hey, man, let's go smash some together. Okay, cool. LeBron is married. I apologize. No, no, I'm not saying this. Hey, man, let's go party. Together. Together. Okay, cool. It seemed like that was the building blocks for a very lasting friendship. And then somebody jumped out the deal.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And you just want to know why?

[Van Lathan]

I want to know why. I think this is the part of me that's just. I just want to know why. I want to know what happened.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's the TMZ in you probably is for me. I'm like, I've moved on. And so has LeBron. By. By the comment that he just made that is Ida moved on. Don't. Let's not. Let's. Like, I'm put. Because he hasn't said anything. This was him being like, don't ask me that question anymore. I have moved on.

[Van Lathan]

Telling you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Drake's still writing songs about it. He's probably.

[Van Lathan]

I bet you that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I bet he's probably right about this.

[Van Lathan]

He should take this. The next Drake record should be called Wish him the Best. The next Drake record should be called Wishing the Best. Look, look, I don't think that we've seen the end of this back and forth. I just honestly hope that no lines are crossed in this that significantly injured the perception that the public has of the other guy. Man, there's all kinds of celebrities in these businesses, places that are operating with this mutual assured destruction. Quick story before we go. I don't know if I've told you this before, but when I was at tmz, I would always be fascinated about who one gets a story from.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes, right. We've talked about that.

[Van Lathan]

I will always be fascinated. You know, like, city can leaving the basketball court. Guy comes up to me, me. And he goes, hey, man, you still over there? He's like, yeah. He's like, man, I got something I gotta give to you about homie. I'm like, homie? And he goes, yeah. I'm like, are you talking about your homie? And he's like, yeah. I'm like, hey, man, don't do that. I'm like, don't. Don't do that, bro. Like, seriously, I'm not really even on the desk like that anymore. I'm more of a TV guy, number one. And I'm telling you, whatever y' all going through, y' all gonna figure it out. But don't do that. Yeah, don't do that. I just always. It would always. Drake actually has a bar about it. The bar said. What does he say? He says it's more attractive when you hold him down. Shorty wanted to tell me secrets about a rap nigga. I told the girl it's more attractive when you hold him down. It's more attractive when you hold him down. Whoever it is, it's more attractive. And when you work at tmz, when you come from that, people want you to know everything that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They crazy to me.

[Van Lathan]

They want you to. Hey, man. Hey. You go to sit down. I've said this before. You go sit down and eat. I'm gonna let you know, man, Will Smith was just here. Hey, man. What? Where the steaks at? Bring out the steaks. I want to look at the marbling on the steaks to give a. About the Fresh Prince. I'm trying to eat a steak. I don't give a. Who just ate here before? Me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Me.

[Van Lathan]

But I look at this, and I think the bad version of this breakup is us learning everything that happened in Carabana is us learning everything that happened at Delilah. It's us learning everything that happened on the phone. Everything that happened here, everything that happened at Carabana. What happened at Delilah, I don't have any clue. But you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What's the rumor?

[Van Lathan]

You have seen Hinting. By Drake.

[Rachel Lindsay]

By Drake. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know nothing about nothing. Something. And I swear about that, I ain't never heard. Right. But the. The bad version of this is the version where it goes crazy because a lot of people in this town, they stay cordial because of what they know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

So wishing the best man's disappointed by.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That comment because he doesn't want you to wish him the best and move on. He wants to know why things fell apart.

[Van Lathan]

No, I don't wanna. I don't want it to go bad, but it's bad. What I mean is the bad that I'm talking about. The bad that I'm talking about is all of this and trying to injure people's reputations and all of that type of. And all of that. I don't want that. That's terrible. That's terrible. When it happens to two friends, it's terrible. At any point, I don't want that for sure. But I would like to know, hey, man, you was listening to Not Like Us and you was at the Pop out dancing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What made you go dancing as well? Trying to get on stage.

[Van Lathan]

Like, what made you go.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Imagine if they had actually let him.

[Van Lathan]

On stage because it would have been too much of an issue.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, you see, imagine that he was trying to get on stage. La. The fact he ain't la, saved. Saved the day. But imagine if he had gotten on stage like he wanted to. Woo.

[Van Lathan]

It's tough. It's tough. And look, and to be real with you, I think a lot of people answer that question. It's people in this industry that I'm really close with you never ever, ever. I never want to be in a position to say, like, a bad word about them or come out and try to injure them or fuck them over. So it's just. It is interesting. All right, we out. We didn't do the top five Black men of 2025. We might save that for a little while.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Just save it. Yeah. There's been a lot of news going on. I mean, so much stuff like Cash Patel's, you know, being questioned. Cdc, former head of cdc, is giving testimony. Like, there's just so many things that are happening right now. We can't cover it all.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, we can't. Dababy put out a new single.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Video. Yeah, video.

[Van Lathan]

We gotta talk about that on Monday. Y' all go watch it, man. Let's see real quick. I wanna see how many views it has on YouTube.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm confused. You know, I'm a little confused lyrically versus I'm curious what you guys think lyrically versus the video. I'm a little confused.

[Van Lathan]

Well, we'll talk about it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

How many views?

[Van Lathan]

It's at almost a million views. Almost a million views. It came out today, like, not smash hit, but not in flop territory at all.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, it's. They're talking about it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, talking about it now. It's kind of part of it.

[Ryan Grimm]

It's got 36 million on Twitter.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, for real? Yeah. Oh, well, then that's. That. That.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Then it's. It's a success for him.

[Van Lathan]

We'll give this the weekend to talk about what I. What I think about this. What we think about this because.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let me sit with it a little bit more.

[Van Lathan]

We'll sit with it a little bit more because we didn't really talk about this as much what happened in North Carolina, but maybe we talk about the entire situation through the lens of this video and another video that came out with the white guy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We don't. We gotta leave that one.

[Van Lathan]

You don't want to talk about it?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, it makes sense to talk about the baby in the video. It's a topic we haven't covered.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

In regards to what happened in North Carolina. But, like, two racists singing about being racist.

[Van Lathan]

Rachels made the decision.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Decision.

[Van Lathan]

Thank you guys for indulging us. Take think caps off on Van Lake.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And J.R. i'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.