‘Michael’ Review, ‘Iceman’ Preview, and Kendrick Sampson on Quincy Jones and Black Creativity

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode Summary: ‘Michael’ Review, ‘Iceman’ Preview, and Kendrick Sampson on Quincy Jones and Black Creativity

Date: April 24, 2026

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Overview

In this lively episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay deep-dive into Black culture’s newest and most debated artifacts: the new Michael Jackson biopic 'Michael', Drake’s upcoming album rollout, and an extended, thoughtful interview with actor/activist Kendrick Sampson about portraying Quincy Jones and the intersections of Black art, legacy, and community empowerment. Along the way, they dissect the California governor's debate, music streaming habits, and the need for better support systems for Black creators in Hollywood.

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Key Topics & Highlights

1. Honest Review & Cultural Dissection: 'Michael' Biopic

[09:11–35:30]

General Takeaways:

• Van and Rachel both found the 'Michael' biopic to be well-intentioned but ultimately shallow, offering a sanitized, highlight-reel version of Michael Jackson’s life rather than real insight into his genius.
• They critique the estate-driven approach as more of a commercial or victory tour for the family than a revealing look at Michael’s complexity.
• Both praise Jafar Jackson’s embodiment of Michael, but wish the film explored MJ’s creative process, especially his synergy with musical legends and innovative production choices.

Notable Quotes:

• Van: “The movie itself falls way short of what I would think an exploration of the genius of Michael Jackson would be.” (11:46)
• Rachel: “It felt very one-dimensional... snapshots of the highlights of Michael’s life... if you went to the bathroom, you went from 1969 to 1979, like it just moved so fast.” (16:08)
• Van: “The movie is concerned with... apologizing for the life of Michael Jackson. The movie is concerned with, to me, showing you that the Michael Jackson you think you know isn’t the actual guy.” (14:45)
• Rachel: “I think everyone should still go see it... if you are a fan of Michael Jackson, you will enjoy the performance.” (19:53)

Timestamps for Key Segments:

• Purpose & missing depth of the biopic: [11:30–15:30]
• Comparison to 'The Jacksons: An American Dream': [16:08–20:56]
• Discussion of casting and standout performances: [21:01–34:12]
• Challenge with modern biopics and oversaturation: [34:25–35:14]

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2. Drake's 'Iceman' Rollout & Comic Book Parallels

[35:30–46:38]

• Conversation drifts to anticipation around Drake’s album 'Iceman', inspired by the elaborate promotional rollout (giant ice block in Toronto, streamer reveal).
• Van draws a clever analogy to X-Men’s Iceman/Bobby Drake’s “secondary mutation”: Suggests that Drake needs an artistic “secondary mutation”—an evolution beyond expectations.
• Friendly teasing about music streaming habits reveals generational and taste differences in the group.

Notable Quotes:

• Van: “Drake needs a secondary mutation. Drake is already up there... But what people are looking for from this album is... a secondary mutation where Drake shows that he’s not just the cold guy, that he’s the coldest.” (40:34)
• Rachel (on Van’s analogy): “See, when you explain it like that, that makes me want to get into comic books.” (41:19)

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3. California Governor's Debate: Disillusionment & Democratic Accountability

[49:31–60:14]

• Van and Rachel react with frustration to the recent governor’s debate—Democratic candidates unwilling to provide real criticism or actionable plans, especially on homelessness and affordability.
• Rachel is struck by the disconnect in candidates’ self-evaluations versus the reality of issues in California.
• Van offers broader commentary on the left/progressive critique and authenticity gap in mainstream politics.

Notable Quotes:

• Rachel: “Every Democrat gave an A or a B [to Newsom]. But then in their response, criticized the implementation... it took the Republican candidate to be like, did y’all just hear yourselves?” (50:01)
• Van: “There’s no one on either side of this political discussion in America that seems to be seriously concerned with addressing these problems that ail working people and threaten the dignity of people in the global South.” (52:16)

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4. Special Interview: Kendrick Sampson on Quincy Jones, Black Art, and Activism

[64:33–127:13]

Portraying Quincy Jones in ‘Michael’

• Preparation & Pressure: Kendrick explains his personal connection to Quincy Jones and the immense responsibility he felt. He stresses the importance of honoring Black cultural giants.
  • “I wanna honor how divine his impact has been to our culture, our community, Black folks specifically. And... he was just cool.” (67:56)
• Process: The role came last minute; he describes the whirlwind casting process, shooting without much rehearsal, and the anxiety and privilege of stepping into Quincy’s legacy.

On What’s Missing in the Movie

• Kendrick wishes there was more depth on the creative relationship between Michael and Quincy, especially their mutual support and creative risk-taking. He recounts moments cut for time or due to reshoots.

Black Art & Criticism

• “There’s nothing that’s exempt from criticism... If you are an artist who does not want your art to be criticized, then make it for yourself. Hang it on your own wall.” (86:06)
• Advocates for “careful, loving” criticism within Black art: we must hold each other accountable, but with intentionality and collective improvement in mind.
  • “Not being able to be held accountable for our art, we just need to care for it more. We need to take care in how we’re criticizing it, understand why we’re criticizing it, and what criticism would actually improve things moving forward.” (89:28)

The Realities of Black Success in Hollywood

• Candidly addresses Hollywood’s gig economy, the stress of financial precarity even at his level, the impact of the strike, and how Black artists often lack intergenerational wealth or industry safety nets.
  • “I know I look good... I still need money, I still gotta earn check to check... and I’m way more privileged than so many actors who have even longer resumes than mine.” (96:37)
• Notes the lost tradition of Black creative infrastructure (the Chitlin Circuit, Negro Actors Guild), and calls for intentional community building—economic, social, and creative—outside of “elite” Hollywood systems.
  • “Everything that you’re saying is an example of us taking care of us. How do we do it right now? Like, what do we do right now?” (110:01)

Vision for Empowerment: Build Power and Samson Studios

• Details his organization (Build Power) and his focus on using art and storytelling as tools for radical Black liberation and tangible community investment.
  • “If I can empower the people that I love... if I could make them more powerful, that makes me more powerful...” (119:55)
• Expresses desire to move at his own speed, reconnect with country roots, avoid “lonely at the top” mentality by building up peers/friends.
• Rachel and Van echo the need to invest in their existing communities and circles, not just join established “elite” networks.

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Van on biopics: “The biopic might be dead... Biopics that are gonna come up in the next 15 or 20 years are going to be people that we know... and we have so much media on these people.” (34:25)
• Rachel on family legacy in 'Michael': “That’s their daddy. Like, I come on here... If you go back and watch the show, ‘Yo, what you talking about my daddy for?’” (20:08)
• Kendrick on creative solidarity: “If you are not able to stand on a stage and be that person, you will look fucking foolish.” (52:16)
• Kendrick on community support: “My homegirl got me this job... let’s look out for each other. That’s what we need to do.” (106:53)
• Van: "I just want my friends to be famous and successful. I don’t want to make famous and successful friends." (122:34)

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Timestamps for Easy Reference

| Segment | Start | End | |------------------------------------------|---------|---------| | Opening/banter, social media/DM talk | 00:07 | 09:09 | | 'Michael' Biopic Review & Debate | 09:11 | 35:30 | | Drake ‘Iceman’ Rollout & Comic Parallels | 35:34 | 46:38 | | Music Streaming Tastes & Top Artists | 43:52 | 49:31 | | CA Governor's Debate Recap/Discuss | 49:32 | 60:14 | | Kendrick Sampson Interview Start | 64:33 | 127:13 |

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Takeaways for Listeners

• The 'Michael’ biopic is a crowd-pleasing, family-approved celebration but falls short as a revealing portrait of genius. Go for nostalgia, not new insight.
• Biopics may have lost their relevance in a world where media saturation lets us know—or think we know—our icons better than any sanitized film could show.
• Drake’s 'Iceman' album has high expectations for artistic reinvention; fans are looking for a “secondary mutation” akin to comic book heroes.
• Effective critique in- and outside the Black community isn’t about tearing down, but about loving accountability and building stronger legacies.
• Black Hollywood continues to face deep structural inequalities, making peer-to-peer solidarity, economic partnership, and local empowerment essential—not just for career success, but for the survival of vibrant Black creativity.
• Kendrick Sampson provides a raw, real look at both the privilege and pain of Black artistry in America, championing new models for the future.

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Summary compiled from original conversation content and direct episode transcript. All quotes attributed and presented in hosts' and guest’s authentic voice and tone for context and clarity.

Transcript

[A]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought Warriors. What is up? What?

[B]

Try again. Try again.

[A]

What's wrong?

[B]

That sets the whole tone for the show. How do you go just, like, halfway? Do it. Yo, yo, yo. What's up, Thought Warriors. They know the rest.

[C]

Energy was crazy.

[B]

Come on, come on. Is Donnie here? Be a professional.

[C]

Of course.

[A]

Donnie.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Let's do that again.

[A]

Are you sure they don't know? They don't. They know.

[B]

They know. But, like, they look forward. Even my nephews look. My nephews love the introduction.

[A]

Okay, let's do it again. Yo, yo, yo, Thought Warriors. What is up? Higher Learning is on.

[B]

Who are you?

[A]

Oh, it's ivan and Lacey Jr. And

[B]

it's me, Rachel, and Lindsey. Wow. Here we go. Let's buckle up. I can already feel what kind of show this is gonna be today. What kind of show?

[A]

I am not on concerta this morning.

[B]

Oh, we can. Yeah. I want every angle we can tell.

[A]

Oh, the show's better when I'm on the concerta or.

[B]

I don't know, Donnie.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

I don't know. It's a roller coaster. We're just riding the wave.

[B]

It honestly doesn't matter if you're on the medicine or not. Like, you just never know what you're gonna get. With you. That's f ed up. Can I. No, no, no. I would say that's a gift and a curse. Let me tell you what I mean. When I sent in the group chat about the governor's race or the debate and you said, thanks, Rach, I wouldn't have known it was on.

[A]

I missed it.

[B]

I didn't know if you were sincere or being sarcastic.

[A]

Is it.

[B]

I literally was like, does he really be that? Or is he like, thanks, Captain? Obviously, that's not true. I didn't know. So that's why I didn't respond. I was like, I don't know if he's being sincere or not.

[A]

This happens. Stuff like this happens because there's not trust involved in how you guys deal with me. I don't get the love that other people get.

[B]

You're unpredictable. That's what it is. Which, again, is a gift and a curse. I think it's what makes you great at what you do.

[A]

I just think. Honestly, I'm just sick of it. I think that for me, and. And it's not funny for you. It's not funny. It's not a laughing thing. I'm sick of it. I'm sick of the. I'm sick of getting beat up on. I've been beat up on a lot this week. Okay. I've been beat up on about the Michael movie stuff. I've been beat up on about the.

[B]

I forgot to listen.

[A]

That we beat up about the fact that we're not covering Invincible on the Midnight Boys. Right? This is a very popular cartoon. It's niggas that is mad that we not covering the cartoon that are super mad. Like every once in a while I open my shit like, oh, yo, Van, you a bitch.

[B]

You can't please everyone.

[A]

It's true. But like, you know and you know what's happening. This is the actual real thing. I'm running out of energy for clapbacks.

[B]

So why don't clap back?

[A]

I don't. I just block you now. There's probably a lot of people right now that are watching this shit and they're like, I just said something to Van and he just straight blocked me. Because now if I wake up in the morning and I'm getting ready to take a walk and I just see his bitch ass. Van Lathan complaining again. Block. I'm running out of energy for clapbacks. I never thought. Nah, but that's pussy, though.

[B]

No, it's not pussy. Do you know how draining it is to not only read a lot of comments but then think about responding? Like when we started this podcast, you used to be like, yeah, here's my phone number. I still do it. Yeah. DM with me. I do not have the capacity to answer DMs, text messages, phone calls, emails, like other social media platforms. I just don't have the capacity to do it. And I think this is good for you. This is a nice detox. Rather than taking the energy, because that's energy. It is energy and it's not good energy to respond. You just say, you know what? I choose me. Block. I don't block. I just ignore. I don't see half the shit I

[A]

used to mute because muting was better. Because they would continue to talk not knowing that you're not seeing it. The shirts that I was wearing earlier last week, those two shirts, the tie

[B]

dye shirt and the construction one.

[A]

What was the construction one you were wearing?

[B]

A bright orange shirt.

[A]

That's not what I'm talking about. It's not a construction shirt. I feel away about what you just said. It's not a. Donnie, did you get the. You like it? Just make sure you don't laugh too much because you're drinking whatever green slop this is and I would hate to see it go down the wrong tube. Donnie, did you feel like I was wearing A construction shirt?

[D]

No, it was. Well, I'm looking at it now. Yeah, I take it back.

[C]

It's not construction.

[B]

It's more Home Depot. Home Depot?

[A]

What do I do? What's happening? What's happening?

[B]

It's just an observation. Nobody said it looked bad. It's just a comparison.

[A]

Tough. So the other shirts I was wearing, I did a reading of Cleo's book at the church. I think I told you about this. I almost cried again. What's going on? Every time I think about my dad, I get tears. Whatever. Whatever. So I did that thing. And after that, I talked to a lady, delightful lady, and her boyfriend. And she gave me some nice shirts to wear. And she gave me some lighters. Scott brand. It's a nice brand. I've been lighting incense and like that. What's that fucking stick Sage?

[B]

You've been saging the house?

[A]

Is the stick sage?

[B]

Well, is.

[A]

Is it the sage is the thing with Palo Santos. What's the sticks?

[B]

Oh, Palo Santos. Palo Santos is probably the stick.

[A]

Okay, so that's the thing. You light it and you do it around there and you feel good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But when she gave me the shirt and the lighters, she told me. She was like, just to let you know we've gone back and forth via dm.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And it was like. Cause you know, if you DM me and you go, hey, Van, I think you're wrong about this. I'll be your huckleberry. And then when I went back, I saw. Yeah, we went back and forth. Cause she was kind of. She was coming at me.

[B]

Uh. Oh.

[A]

And then I looked back and I looked in the DMs and she had deleted all of the DMs where I couldn't go back and see what she said. Right.

[B]

How do you know she was coming at you?

[A]

Because I can tell by my answers.

[B]

Your response.

[A]

It probably wasn't, like, the worst. She was a very nice lady. But. But it probably wasn't the worst. But it's just funny to have that type of back and forth. And then it's like, yo, wear the shirts. Use the stuff. And then I did it.

[B]

I would not knowing that I would have been afraid to use any kind of Palo Santo. Why? Or I just, like, he didn't give the Palo Santo. Okay. Like, that's just like an energy thing. Ask your mom. Like, you can't just be taking stuff from everybody like that.

[C]

Why?

[A]

I've been doing it. But you know what? Even on tmz, people would be like, hey, Van, would you Wear this shirt. And I'd be like, yeah, why not?

[B]

The shirt's different. I'm talking about, like, she didn't give.

[A]

No Palo Santo.

[B]

Palo Santo. Like, that kind of stuff. Okay. She just gave you the lighter.

[A]

She just gave me the lighter. Lighter to light the Palo Santos. The clothes are very. It's very. I can tell she has a good energy and her brand has a good energy because the clothes.

[B]

Clothes are different. I would wear somebody's clothes.

[A]

You wear. I used to do it all the time at tmz. I. I was actually playing. I was actually up boxing at Equinox and a guy shouted up to me while I was boxing. He was playing basketball. And he goes, hey, you Van from tmz? I'm like, yeah. He's like, you remember me? You used to wear my shit on tmz. I was like, no.

[B]

Oh, wow. Yeah, but you wore stuff, so that's nice.

[A]

Yeah. You send me a shirt, I wear the fucking shirt. What difference do people send you shit to wear? You should wear it.

[B]

No.

[A]

Donnie.

[B]

Yeah. Let's reel it in.

[E]

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[B]

Donnie. First one, like you said.

[D]

Yeah, first one. Let's talk about movies, Michael. We are having Kendrick Sampson on the podcast later, but let's talk about it beforehand. The Lionsgate film is aiming for a 65 million to $70 million opening in North America. Some are predicting it to be closer to 80 million, which would rank it as the largest debut ever for a musical biopic, which would be ahead of Bohemian Rhapsody and Straight out of Compton. The movie is, though, drawing some criticism for avoiding the child abuse allegations, which we've covered this before. The film reportedly underwent major rewrites and reshoots to remove references to those allegations due to legal restrictions tied to past settlements. What were you guys thoughts?

[A]

Okay, so if you're familiar with any ringer stuff, you've already heard me talk about the movie. I talked about it on Bill's podcast. And we're also getting into the movie on the Midnight Boys. Okay.

[B]

Y' all cover everything over there. I thought y' all were strictly like Marvel cartoons, animated things.

[A]

I take offense.

[B]

No, I actually did not realize. I thought big picture. No, I've asked to come on the Ringiverse. Like, that's what.

[A]

So we could talk about Summer House.

[B]

No, no, no, no. I just thought. I can't ask that question.

[A]

I just thought I threw it back at you.

[B]

No, no, no. I just thought that you guys. I didn't realize you covered other movies, but keep going.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, we cover other movies sometimes. Like every once in a while. Really? It's more for Charles. Cause we feel Charles pain sometimes. So we throw Charles a dramatic cultural movie that people are talking about. Cause he's a true real critic. Okay, cool. So we talked about it on the movie on the show. Talked about it twice as a movie. I did not like the Michael movie. Okay. I did not like the Michael movie. We're having Kendrick Sampson on the show later. I don't think that that conversation will get into my opinion of the movie itself. That conversation is going to be more about his portrayal of Quincy Jones, the movie itself, some of the conversations around the movie, all that stuff. We had an event last night unwrapping the real Sean Dickerson. Everyone, Fraser Starr, everybody's out there. We're doing all the stuff. It's a great event. We screened the Michael movie. We had Kendrick and Laurence Tate come out there. All right. As a cultural experiment of telling the story of Michael Jackson, how could you not be supportive of the movie? People coming together to celebrate an era in time that they remember so fondly. Music that they remember so well. Something that makes them feel so good. You don't want to poo poo that. Right. But the movie itself falls way short of what I would think an exploration of the genius of Michael Jackson would be.

[B]

But did you expect that?

[A]

No.

[B]

Right. So did I expect what did you expect? That it was going to meet expectations of what you would want to see with the Michael movie.

[A]

Okay, great question. Now we're cooking. Now we're in the podcast. What I would like to call in the flow of the podcast. Okay, so this is what I would have expected. Anyone that thought that the Jackson estate would make a movie about Michael Jackson that would interrogate or Litigate sexual assault allegations against Michael Jackson is in a fantasy world. Even the parts that had to be recut, because I'm sure everyone knows by now that there were at least the time period where this was going on with him was at least explored in the movie at some point, right? The movie apparently started before they had to cut it, with the authorities rolling up to Neverland and Michael Jackson being taken away. Then it goes back to the beginning of his journey, right? But if you think that the movie was going to either both sides that or get into the details of the allegations themselves or whatever, when they're making a movie about their brother and their son, they're not going to do that, right? And their cousin, their uncle or whatever, they're not going to do that. What I did expect, though, and what I expect from a biopic, any type of biopic, is to answer the question. One question for a biopic should be answered, why this person? That's the only question that a biopic has to answer. Has to answer, why this person. When I say answer it, I don't mean tell us the answer. I mean show us the answer. So if you're doing a biopic about something, say Malcolm X, Malcolm X at the end of his life, or not necessarily at the end of his life, when Malcolm X gets to be Malcolm X, he is a once in a generation, once in a lifetime, once in a history, social, political and intellectual force. The question is not that he became that. We know that. The question is why and how? So the journey of him from being Detroit Red to going to jail, to meeting Baines in jail, some of this stuff is not exactly the way it happened. But what you see is a metamorphosis from this man that was in this place doing this stuff, living his life, to someone who had complete belief and submission to a religious movement and to a political theory and was able to translate that and give that to people in such power that we've never seen it before, the movie has to answer the question of how did that happen to that guy? Okay? And that is what a biopic is supposed to do. And the Michael movie, not only does it do that with Michael Jackson, it's not concerned with doing it. The movie's concerned with doing something else, which is apologizing for the life of Michael Jackson. The movie is concerned with, to me, showing you that the Michael Jackson that you think that you know isn't the actual guy. But the only way that it does that is to gloss over things. He really loved children. He always hung out with children. He always did this. Even when Michael Jackson in the movie, and you guys should go out and see it, Even when Michael Jackson in the movie is burned, right? Which we all know that he's burned. He says while he's in the hospital bed, he goes, I don't want to take medication. That right there. To me, I read that as an apology for Michael Jackson's drug use. Later on, he didn't want to take medication. He took medication because he was burning. He got hooked on it. Unfortunately, that's what took his life. So when I looked at the film, I didn't need anybody to try to sanctify Mike. I didn't need that. The feelings that I feel about Michael Jackson's music and how I feel when I see Michael Jackson perform, I always feel them. I wanted to know where the genius came from. I wanted to know how the genius formed.

[B]

There's a couple of reasons why I think they did this, but it felt very one dimensional to me and it felt like we were watching snapshots of the highlights of Michael's life. I mean, a couple of the low ones, like the burning, you said, but it just felt like a highlight reel rather than an in depth understanding of Michael. You know, coming into this movie, I'm obviously going to to compare it to the TV movie, the Jackson 5, the American Dream, which is incredible. If it was on TV tonight, I would sit down and watch the whole thing. There you see Katie and Joe meet each other before they have any children. You understand what they wanted for themselves, how circumstances didn't allow that and how they put that dream into their children and thus became the Jackson 5. And then eventually Michael Jackson, you understand it like you really understood their struggle. We got that as a generation. So what I wanted from this movie, which I did not have high expectations, was for this generation, like my nephews who love the music, to understand Michael. And that is not what this movie does. I mean, if you went to the bathroom, you went from 1969 to 1979, like it just moved so fast. And I felt like there were things that were just glossed over so quickly and that were defined with one sentence. And then we just moved on. It was like the response was one sentence and then you just moved on to the next. And you just kind of have to assume based on prior knowledge that you already have or don't what that kind of situation meant. The most in depth part of the movie that we got was when he was burned. From the commercial, we saw why he ended up doing the commercial, who he was doing it for, how he felt with it, the pain that he suffered physically, internally, with that. And then how he decided despite that, something he didn't want to do. He deeply loved his family and he was gonna do it for them. And then after that he was gonna choose put his career first, like you. That was something that was played out. But I think as I was watching and I said this to you before at the end of the movie, and this isn't giving anything away, guys. At the end of the movie you see that they're like, please do this victory tour, this last tour for the family. Like the family needs it. That's what this movie felt like to me. You know, there's no Janet, there's no Reby. I don't think we got Randy either. And so you're already like, well, where's everyone else? You don't see the relationship that he had with his brothers and his sister because according to this movie is just latoya. And we know the family was very involved with this and very behind it. So this felt like they did this movie like a victory tour, like they needed it. And maybe for a new generation, they wanted to show Michael in a positive way as opposed to some of the other things like the Neverland documentary that came out. Like, let's tell another story about Michael. And this be the latest and greatest of something that's surrounding Michael. I felt like that was what they wanted as well. But, you know, I think everybody should still go see it. I think if you are a fan of Michael Jackson, you will enjoy the performance. I mean, Jafar does an incredible job, I think embodying Michael Jackson from the talking to the mannerisms to the performance. They do a good job of recreating the performances. And you know, like again, if you like Michael, you'll enjoy watching that in a movie theater. But it's very star studded, but like big stars with very little presence in the movie. I mean, the movie really centers around Michael and Joe and there's no depth really with that. It's just that Joe was hard. They don't like Joe.

[A]

Yeah, hard. But even that though, there's a tension there that I can feel in that character. This is not me in any way saying or hinting that me or anyone I know can make a better Michael Jackson movie. Let's make sure that that is it. But even with Joe, there's a tension. And you know why? Cause that's their daddy. That's why they all know that they daddy was hard. That they grandfather Joe was hard. That all of that stuff. But at the same time, that's their father. Like, I come on here. Jamila. Jamila pointed out. Jamila pointed out something that I wrote about my dad, shared it with everyone. And if you go back and watch the show. Yo, what you talking about my daddy for? Like, it's their dad. I understand that. So that's a deal, you know, which they don't do.

[B]

In loving memory, at the end of the movie, it says, in loving memory of Tito, right? No Joe.

[A]

No Joe. Okay, so the things that work about the film at the end of the movie, you're very happy that Michael Jackson has left his father's control and has escaped it and is performing bad the way he wants to perform it. You can tell he's in complete creative control of everything. Like while he's on the stage, Jafar Jackson. You guys, there are not enough superlatives that I have to tell you just how perfect he was, how it's obvious that he committed himself to the role and how good he is as Michael Jackson. Here's even the issue with that. So at the end of the movie, I'm watching Michael Jackson perform, and the first thing that I do is go home and watch Michael Jackson perform. So this movie is going to be successful. It's going to be successful because this conversation about the film is going to make people curious to see it. To me, A. And number two, there is so much that we have on Michael Jackson. There is so much stuff out there that almost everything will get a boost from Michael being in the cultural conversation the way he is in the cultural conversation right now. So much of it. So I go home and I watch it, and I realize something, that I can watch that whenever I want. If I want to watch Michael Jackson perform, I don't have to watch even a brilliant performer approximate his performance like in a movie. Now, the show with Miles Frost, which is another bad motherfucker. Miles Frost, just a. A plus top 1% talent. The guy who plays Michael Jackson on Broadway in the. In the.

[B]

Oh, oh, mj. Yeah. Did you see that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, my God. Just nuts. That motherfucker. That kid is nuts. Right? So I can watch that whenever I want. The question is not whether or not someone can perform bad or beat it or Billie Jean on screen.

[C]

Well.

[A]

And embody the spirit of Michael Jackson. The question to me is, how does that serve the story that the movie is committed to telling? Is the movie committed to telling a story that shows you how he breaks through and These performances become a culmination of all of the talents of Michael Jackson. They're small things, right? Like he's writing on a. On the paper, mama, say Mama samakuza. Right? Like even the fact that that's in that record is really telling about Michael Jackson. The reason why that guy, at least to me, was able to hit the pinnacle of American cultural relevance is because he was a combination of all of these influences. He was a combination of the exploding paparazzi, pop culture obsessed American influence of the late 70s and the early 80s. But he was in the disco clubs watching people dance. He was also in the other dance clubs watching people dance. He was a student of music, but not just American music. Michael Jackson was a student of world music. If you watch Thriller, not Thriller, if you watch Moonwalker. At the end of Moonwalker, the credits roll and Lady Smith Black Mombaso is playing. Obviously they were a group that had been in the Paul Simon song and all of that. So they were flirting with some type of pop culture cultural relevance at that point. But Michael would hear it all and he would put it into his music. If he heard you rapping, he was obsessed with rap. Whatever could be done that would move. There's a part of the movie where they go where Billie Jean is being played. And I think it's Quincy that goes. That's that Van Halen shit right there. That's literally that Van Halen shit. Because on Billie Jean, that's Eddie Van Halen on guitar. That right there is huge. It's Eddie Van Halen on guitar for Billie Jean. It's Slash on guitar for Black or White. So if you are making noise in rock music and your guitar has a sound that nobody else can recreate, like Eddie van Halen's in 1980 or 81 or slashes in 1989 or 88 or 87, Michael knew who you were and he wanted to work with you and wanted that sound as a part of his sound portfolio. That curiosity, that daring, that virtuosity that makes up who Michael is, not just from a music perspective, but also from a dancing perspective, is not in the movie. The movie doesn't explore that. And that's what separated him from his contemporaries.

[B]

You mean beat it?

[A]

Oh, beat it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not Billie Jean. Beat it.

[B]

You made a good point when we were talking before the podcast about how. And I know I'm biased, but, you know, I just. Again, Jackson 5American Dream. We don't need anything else. We don't need anything else. That's similar to that. That tells that story. Because I just feel like it was done so well. You brought up the point. If this whole movie was about the making of Thriller. Yeah. About the making of off the Wall, about the making of Bad. That is something outside of maybe, like, something within a documentary that I have not seen. I would have loved to seen a Michael character just through the making of that. And I would have loved to seen him work with Quincy or even, like, how did Michael decide, I want Van Halen on this or I want Slash on this one? Like, I would love to see that kind of stuff as he put it together, as he chose his team of who was producing it, who was helping him write. Like, putting it all together. That's kind of. I would love the story behind We Are the World. Even putting, like. Like, that's talked about so much on Social. Like, I would love to know, like, some insight on that. Like, Michael being a part of that writing that maybe frustrated with some of the people that were. That were on the microphone as we talk about that. Those viral moments. Like, that would have been so incredible. And that could be done in two hours or two and a half hours. So, like. Or I just. And maybe I didn't get this from the trailer. I just didn't know enough when it ended. I mean, I guess I was kind of like, we're running out of time. I thought it was gonna go past where it ended. I did not realize it was gonna start there and end it. And I'm like, all right, well, we've seen this, right? I really thought we were gonna get more adult Michael than more kid Michael. And if we were getting kid Michael, that's Jackson 5. So why are we not seeing him with his brothers? Also, they cut Diana Ross out the movie. Kat Graham got cut out the movie?

[A]

Yeah, Kat Graham said she got cut out the movie. It's like, you know, just a lot of stuff seemed to be. Maybe they thought they could do it, they couldn't do it. They had to take it out. One last thing. I'll say number one, if you guys are in the mood to celebrate the life of Michael Jackson, go and see the movie. Like, dance, have a good time. There's some really interesting bubble stuff in this movie that I just, you know, I can tell, like, some of the bubble stuff that is in the movie, I can tell that they just had to put extra shit in the movie after they had to lose some other stuff. And they were like, how can we fill in story?

[B]

Also, we keep talking about Jafar Young, Michael is great as well. And I'm sorry, I cannot think of his. I don't have his name right now, but he is incredible. And this is the first time he's ever acted.

[A]

He was great. He was. He was great.

[B]

Great.

[A]

But I'll say there's a scene in the movie, to me, that's indicative of kind of, in a way, the cynicism of the film. So Michael walks into a room. There's a lot of lawyers sitting around. You're going to hear me say this if you listen to me on other podcasts. And there's a guy in the room. Miles Tiller is playing a guy named John Branca. And all of these lawyers are in the room. And John Branca is talking to Michael Jackson. He's trying to figure out how he's going to fire Joseph. And Juliano Crew is young Michael introducing. He's trying to figure out how he's going to fire Joseph. He's talking to all these guys. And this one guy, John Branco, who was Michael Jackson's longtime attorney, he goes, you know, why do you want to fucking be my lawyer or whatever? There's no one like you. No one like you. Michael Jackson goes. He's like, what do you want? What do I want? He goes, you want to be the biggest star in the world? He's like, can you make that happen? He's like, yeah. And then Michael goes, that's my guy. Everybody leave so we can talk. I'm in the theater with Jamie. If you don't believe me, ask Jamie. I'm in the theater with Jamie. I'm like, yo, why is this scene in this movie? Why? Like, why is that scene in this movie? Why is that guy played by Miles Tiller? I look at Jeaimy, I go, that guy helped him make this movie, almost for certain. Because that scene, which highlights that character, which I am sorry to that guy because I looked him up and I've known about him. He is very heavily involved in one of the most interesting music stories of all time, which is a story that needs to be told. Paul McCartney, which is how Michael Jackson got the ATV catalog, right? There are misconceptions about that. People think that they snaked Paul McCartney out of the Beatles catalog. That is not, not what happened at all. It was insanely shrewd and aggressive business, cultural understanding on behalf of Jackson and Branka that allowed them to get that catalog right. That just showed how Michael was in touch with things. They didn't cheat Paul McCartney or snake him or Double Deal or any of that stuff, none of that's true. But in this case, this is another example to me of somebody telling this story that wanted their piece of it to be in there, that wanted their shine from him. And the fact that Michael Jackson is in this movie treated like a commodity. A lot of people are gonna look at this and say that he's treated with love, right? That he's treated with love. Which is why we don't really look into Michael at all. When I watch the Jackson miniseries, I think he's treated with love in that. And the reason why he's treated in love with that is cause there's literally a scene between him and his mother where he's looking in the mirror and his face is breaking out and he is concerned with how he will be viewed. He doesn't like his nose. He's growing up, his face is breaking out, his voice is changing. He feels alone. They treated him with love in that movie because they treated him like a human being. They treated him like somebody that had all of these issues. And still, even when the Motown 25 part of that movie comes up, Michael is defiant in it. He goes, yeah, I'll perform with my brothers, but I want a solo spot. Michael says straight up. He doesn't reluctantly say, he says straight up. Now it's about me. Now it is about me.

[B]

That's in the TV movie.

[A]

That's in a TV movie. And it treated him like somebody who had a POV that had all of these things. It's not all about Michael. It's about everyone, right? This movie treats him like a commodity, like something that they are trying to purify, so it's easier to sell it. And I'm not saying that that was the point of the film. I'm saying that that's the way it comes out at the end, right? That's the way it looks like the estate. It looks like a commercial for Michael Jackson.

[B]

It looks like a commercial rather than

[A]

about the life of them.

[B]

Other positives. I thought the acting was great. I thought we already said it was star studded. I thought everybody who played their roles did a fantastic job, whether they were in it for a quick second or longer. They did great embodying it and they did show. You know, I talk about. It's very clear about the tension. We talk about the relationship between Joe and Michael. That's very evident in the movie. But they're also those small moments with his mom where you see them watching TV together and eating popcorn and it's like, other than Ben the rat his mother was. And Bubbles and the Other Animals. The mother was his only friend. And that you do get from it.

[A]

So also, off the Wall is not Michael Jackson's first solo album, by the way. He had had solo albums before then.

[B]

What?

[A]

There's a lot. Hold on. People know this. I mean, I'm not. Now I'm just talking, just so people know, like, off the Wall is not in any way, shape or form. Michael Jackson's first solo album when he was little. Yeah, he had been putting out solo albums. I think off the Wall is his first musical exploit. I'm growing. It's his first. Maybe, like, I'm doing it by my. But he had. It's not the first solo album with Michael Jackson by any way, in any way, shape or form.

[B]

Oh, yeah, he did have Ben.

[A]

He had been. He had solo four people. So, you know, just. It's what it is. However, I'll say this. Hey, man, go out. We screened it last night on Rapping. The real people were fucking with it.

[B]

You should go see it. You should go see it.

[A]

Go see it, man. Go see the dance. If not, if only for the performances of Nia Long, Kendrick, Sampson. Lorenz Tate is great as Barry Gordy, and we don't get enough of him in the movie, right?

[B]

Yeah, we don't get enough of that

[A]

for all of that stuff. Go see the movie. Go have fun. But moving on with these biopics, with these people that we know really well, the biopic thing is about to be different because it's gonna change, right? It's gonna change now from biopics about people that we didn't know, their lives like Ray Charles, Johnny Cash and people like that. This is about to change. The biopics that are gonna come up in the next 15 or 20 years are going to be people that we know. Fucking Tupac, fucking nwa, fucking Notorious, BIG These are gonna be people that we know. And we have so much media on these people. We're still in tune with these people. Social media, social media, all of this stuff. If you look at it, not one of these has nailed it. I think the biopic might be dead.

[B]

Well, or to pull a page out of your book of what you said, you take a moment, like, don't feel like you have to do the whole life. Take, like, a huge thing that happens in this life and expand on that. I think that could be very successful. Very successful.

[A]

All right. Donnie Drake, Iceman.

[D]

He has launched his rollout for Iceman this week with the giant Ice Block in Toronto. That held the release date. Inside, fans turned out, crowding around it and trying to break the. And melt the ice to reveal the date. And on Tuesday, a streamer named Kishka retrieved a bag from the ice blocks, headed to Drake's house, where he opened the contents to reveal the date, which revealed that it's coming out May 15th. Are you guys anticipating this as much as most?

[A]

I have comic book thoughts on this. What do you think?

[B]

You have comic book thoughts in the way that he rolled it out?

[A]

Nope. I have comic book thoughts on Iceman. Okay, Drake. And how the comic book character of Iceman, whose name is. What? You know? You know the. Do you know the name of Iceman's?

[B]

You don't think I know movies? You think I know comic books?

[A]

Okay, so let's. Let's just. Let's just do this.

[B]

Who is Iceman? Let me look at him.

[A]

Who is Iceman? Okay, so the original X Men. All right, hold on. Don't look it up. Don't look it up. Don't look it up.

[B]

Oh, I know who Iceman is.

[A]

Oh, wait. Okay, so, Donnie, can you name the original X Men team? Oh, fuck.

[B]

Wait, let me do it. Let me do it. Let me try.

[A]

Let's try the original team. The original lineup of X Men. Just as close as you can.

[B]

Okay. Beast.

[A]

Yes. I'm more excited than I've ever been. Okay.

[B]

Iceman.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Storm. No, she's not the original.

[A]

Not original. She's the second team.

[B]

Is Wolverine in the original?

[A]

No, second team as well. That's the new X Men.

[B]

Okay, okay. Get them out of my head. Get them out of my head.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You got two of them. Because you got. You said Beast and you said Iceman.

[B]

I know, but I don't know what the fire guy is with the glasses.

[A]

I'm gonna give you credit for that. His name is fucking Cyclops.

[B]

Okay, Cyclops. I knew that.

[A]

That's the third one.

[B]

Okay, okay. Okay. Now she becomes the Phoenix.

[A]

This is amazing.

[B]

Jane.

[A]

Her name is Jean.

[B]

Jean.

[A]

You get credit for that. That is four. The last one you will never get in a million years, but that is. Okay. Think about it.

[B]

Professor Magneto.

[A]

Professor counts.

[B]

Professor counts.

[A]

Okay, so Professor X is gonna count. He's in all of the teams, but Professor X is gonna count. He's the mentor of the X Men. But there's one more guy.

[B]

Oh, it's a guy.

[A]

It's a guy. Okay, there's one more guy. This is a tougher one. This is. This. This is the least.

[B]

Can you give Me? A color?

[A]

What you mean a color?

[B]

Like when I think storm, I think black and blonde. When I think a Cyclops, I think red. I think white for this guy.

[A]

White.

[B]

Ooh, yeah.

[A]

No, Donnie, do you know, I don't waste time.

[D]

I don't. Who is it?

[A]

Angel. So angel, he's got wings. So he's.

[B]

Oh my gosh.

[A]

Yes, Angel's got the wings, but he becomes archangel. Okay, so Iceman's name is Bobby Drake. That's his real name. Oh, his real name is Bobby Drake.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Something happened to Iceman in the comic books that I think needs to happen to Drake in real life.

[B]

Okay, okay. But Iceman falls for old girl.

[A]

Who.

[B]

The one. If she touches you, Rogue.

[A]

Okay, so that's in the movies. Oh, so in the comic books this is what happens to Iceman. Iceman is Bobby Drake and for a long time he was a very valuable member of the X Men. He made ice slides and all of that stuff. If you watch Spider man and his amazing friend is the 80s, it was Iceman, Firestar and Spider man, right?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Everyone already knew Iceman and they knew that he was a powerful guy, that he was an A plus comic book character as a member of the X Men. And he has on adventures and all of that stuff. But then in the 90s, he had a second mutation. What actually ended up happening is we didn't know how powerful Iceman actually was. Iceman went through a secondary mutation and then became an omega level mutant. What happened to Iceman was he was cold as fuck, but we didn't even realize how cold he was. He became pure cold. He went from someone that encased his body in ice to becoming pure ice. It turned out that Iceman couldn't just make snowballs and slides. He could actually rearrange the molecular structure using cold. He was like a cold psychic that could bring upon a new ice age that could cold everything. You couldn't even kill Iceman because if you killed Iceman, if you shot him, he could reform his body. By freezing his molecules and putting himself back together, he legitimately became a God level agent of cold. This when I think in my comic brain of where Drake is and what Drake needs to do. Drake needs a secondary mutation.

[B]

Is that the album?

[A]

It's gonna depend. Drake needs a secondary mutation. Drake is already up there. He's always a hero. He's always been a hero for a long time that everybody has loved. He's been around, you've seen him. He's one of the leaders of the hip hop X Men and all of that stuff. But what people are looking for from this album is the same thing that happened to Bobby Drake. A secondary mutation where Drake shows that he's not just the cold guy, that we know that he is the coldest, and that he can't be killed by traditional means. That's what happened to Iceman in the comics, and that's what has to happen to Drake.

[B]

So do we know why he named his album Iceman?

[A]

No, but I can tell you it wasn't because of what I just said.

[B]

Well, if he hasn't said it yet, he needs to steal that, because that was incredible. And it's like. See, when you explain it like that, that makes me want to get into comic books. If I didn't know X Men, that would make me like. I actually am fascinated with the X Men, which is why I could kind of name them. Like, I know some of the characters that play. They did a good job, but that. And I'll probably never be able to do something like that again. Just to be very clear, I don't want anybody to set their expectations or change. Whatever you thought before, I'm still there. But that is what he needs to be telling people. Insane. Like, I'm so captivated by all of that. And then one of them, Rory or Mal, I'm not sure, heard the album and said that it's probably Mall. Okay? Oh, Mall. Sorry, Mall.

[A]

It's Mal.

[B]

Mal said that he's a nice guy.

[A]

He's not gonna.

[B]

I'm not afraid of that. I just wanted to say. No, I just.

[A]

Like, that's Harlem.

[B]

Wasn't trying to get. It was no shade. I wasn't trying that.

[A]

What you gonna do? Talk to him right now?

[B]

I would say there's no shade. I wasn't trying to get your name wrong, which is why I said, ooh, sorry.

[A]

Why aren't you talking shit?

[B]

Anyways, one of them said they've heard the album and that it is kind of what you just said. Secondary mutation taps into. They said what happened with Kendrick. Lit something or maybe didn't light something. Made him cold, to use your reference. Made him so cold on the inside that it created something new within him. Now, I don't think they said it created a new sound, but it just gave him the. The creative thing. He needed the X Factor to step into another level of his artistry, is what they said. What I do hope from this album is that that is what we get and no like shade or going back into the beef that he had with Kendra.

[A]

It's gonna be a little bit of

[B]

that I would like for it. Cause it's like one thing I think that always gets confused when you have the Drake Kendra conversation is I like Drake's music. I'm not, you know, anything that we talk about it is like, I might say, like, corny or like, I don't understand, like a bulletproof vest or you being a killer and stuff like that. But when it comes to the music, I've been to concerts, I like it. So I'm excited to see what this album is about, but I just like, don't want to step back into 2024.

[A]

Can I tell you something? You don't like Drake's music. You love it.

[B]

Don't speak for me.

[A]

You love Drake's music.

[B]

Nope. Cuz there's some of it I don't like. Like, I don't like. Give me your.

[A]

What. What music streaming service do you use?

[B]

I listen to Al.

[A]

What? Stream. What? Give me.

[B]

Oh, sh. Spotify.

[A]

No, you don't have to. Man, all that. Like, you don't have to. Hey, we listen to y'.

[B]

All. I don't have a free one.

[A]

We've been doing. It's not. Don't. We ain't. Don't be corporate like that. Okay? What. What music streaming service do you use? Bring it up. Okay, so how do I. This is Apple Music. So where do I. Hold on, Uncle Van. We like, we legitimately. What just happened was we tried to find out how you can find how much music you've been listening to, and we couldn't do it. Which is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about not knowing shit and being old. Cause right now. But I will say this about Apple Music. I will say this about Apple Music. Just let Apple Music know something. If I want to find that on Spotify, if I want to find that on Tidal, all I got to do is click one button and for Apple Music, it's a whole fucking journey to find this shit out. So I'm telling y' all right now, y' all need to get on y' all shit. Okay? Y' all need to get on y' all shit. If I want to find that on El Spotify, it's just one click of one button on title. One click of one button most listen to and it shows you. All right, but. So I can't even prove my point, but I know that Drake is in your top five, if not your top ten. You know, I know that he is anyway, but yo, look, here's the deal. We'll see what happens.

[B]

All right.

[A]

It's dropping. Maybe.

[B]

Here are my top artists here.

[A]

Your top artists. Let me see. Let me see. Number one. Who is that?

[B]

Just come on.

[A]

Who's number one?

[C]

Come on, number one.

[A]

Who is number one? Let me see. I can't see. Let me see. Number one is Willie Jones. Okay, sweet daddy, let me like, let me see. Let me see. Number two is Baby Keem.

[B]

It's left field.

[A]

Number two is Baby Keem. Shout out.

[B]

I like Baby Keem.

[A]

That's not a diss at all. I'm just saying. Number two is Baby Keem. Number three is Juvenile. Number three is Drew Hill. Number four is Juvenile. Who are you, nigga? Click. Okay. Click through. Number five is Beyonce. Number six is Guy. Number seven is Mona Leo.

[C]

I like her.

[B]

Yeah, she's good.

[A]

She hard as shit. Number eight is Big X the Plug. Number nine is Sexy Red. And number ten is Johnny Damn D. Who is Johnny Dam D. It's a Dallas song. Oh, let me see. Let me hear it. Oh, we're not gonna be able to play all that. Okay, so Drake is not in your top 10. Okay, cool.

[B]

I tried to tell you, but I like the Drake.

[A]

Okay, you like Drake? He's not in your top 10. He definitely will be in my top 10 in anything. Because it's just certain records I play over and over and over again almost every day.

[B]

Fair.

[A]

Okay, so we'll see what happens. We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens with Drake. Donnie, you excited for new Drake?

[D]

No, not really. He's not in my top 10. I don't even know if he's in my top 20.

[A]

Donnie, who's in your top 10? In your top 20? Who's in my top 10? Donnie, who's in your Top 10 or your top 20? Who's in your top 10?

[D]

My top 10 is old for the most part.

[A]

Like who?

[D]

This is the order. It's Prince, the Time Funkadelic, Alexander o'. Neill. I got Young Thug, Janet Jackson.

[B]

You're an old soul, Donnie.

[A]

Donnie is an old soul. Donnie is a. Okay, maybe I'm wrong about this, man. I thought maybe I'm wrong about this,

[B]

but maybe it'll change when Iceman comes out. But no, like, I'm just not listening to Drake right now. That's funny.

[A]

These are my most listened songs. These are my top five most listened to songs on title. Okay, you ready? Number one, Big Boss Rabbit, Freddie Gibbs. Okay, I think that's the best rap song of the decade. Okay, I do number two, non stop Drake. Well, okay. Number three, 95, South J. Cole.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Number four, March Madness. Future. Number five, never recover, lil baby gonna Drake. Number six. And I cannot believe that this song is not number one. I legitimately listen to this song every day. The weather, Nipsey Hussle, Rick Ross, Kezzi Kapone. I love that song. I'm more, like, in love with the song. And then after that, it's like, this is all no limit. This is all like, what's wrong with me?

[B]

Well, I had juvenile in mind.

[A]

I'm a hot boy bg. Like, get it how you live. Loud pipes. We talked about that. Like, all of this stuff. How did homecoming live, Sorry. Beyonce get in there? How'd that get on there? TV off. Kendrick, Money, trees Kendrick, all of that stuff.

[B]

And then Kendrick has a run in my 2025. Because that was just like, for a month. My 2020. Oh, my gosh, we might have the most. Like, mine is. Drake is in mine. In my top. In my top 25 of the year. 25. I stopped 25. Top 10 of 2025 for the year. Beyonce, Willie. Okay, Tyler the Creator, Kendrick Lamar, SZA Chance the Rapper, Drake, d' Angelo Snow, Allegra and Luther Vandross.

[A]

That's what I'm talking about.

[B]

I don't know what I was.

[A]

But then it gets weird. System of a Down, Queens of the Stone Age is in here. It's just. It's weird. These are just like. I'm listening to stuff like, weird. Like a fucking alien ant farm. Listen to a lot of. I like that movies. Foo Fighters, the California has to, you know, elect a governor. It's tough, Donnie.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

They held the first debate last night with the leading candidates. Featured in the debate were Republicans Steve Hilton and David Cameron. Also there was Chad Bianco, Tom Steyer, Xavier Bacara, Katie Porter, and San Jose Mayor Matt Mahan. You guys watched. What were your takeaways for the. The leading candidates in this race for governor.

[A]

Boy, boy, it was awful.

[B]

And they lost me at the very beginning when the question was, grade Governor Newsom on his housing. Or maybe it was just homelessness. I don't even know if it was housing. They threw that in there in their answers. And every Democrat gave an A or a B. But then in their response, criticized the implementation or the lack thereof of the money that has been sent and supposed to be used for that. And that he has not executed it make it make sense. And it took the Republican candidate to be like, did y' all just hear y' all selves, y' all all criticize the way that it is not being addressed, yet you still gave the governor an A or a B. And to me, that whole moment right there is what the Democratic Party does. You can't fix yourself to criticize or at least like people who are like true party Democrat party people. You couldn't fix yourself to criticize Governor Newsom right out. You clearly don't agree with it. You clearly have issues with the way that or the lack thereof of the way homelessness has been addressed within his eight years, and yet you couldn't criticize him. And then the other part of it was none of you had, like we've had. We had Butch Ware here had an actual plan of what he would do. None of them did. You recognize there's a problem, and none of them had an actual plan that I felt like one. There was really no plan, but everything they said was pure fluff. And for me, I'm like, how can I vote for you? This one? It's one of the biggest problems in our state, and you don't have a plan to address it at all. Why would I vote for you? Why? And I'm definitely not voting for the Republicans by any means, but I'm just saying, like, just to hear the Republican be like, you guys, you're such like, what did you just do? He turned to Katie Porter. He was like, if I was in your class, that would want you graded my papers, because if I do nothing, I'm still gonna get a B, basically. That's captured the whole thing for me, that moment.

[A]

So, you know, I hope that the Democrats are paying attention to how things went last night in that debate and just the response to their candidates overall, because something is happening. First of all, they're pretty lucky that Butch wasn't on the stage with them last night, because rhetorically and just from a sense of passion and connection, he would have eviscerated them. Because whether or not you agree policy wise with Butch or the leftist faction of American politics, the progressives of American politics, there is one thing that you have to give them, which is that they mean what they say. They mean what they say because they are saying things that are destabilizing and dangerous and don't get them invited to parties. They stuff. They say stuff where people go, you can't come, you can't be on the stage. You're threatening to this, you're threatening to that. Right? The things that they say aren't even accepted the way the things that I say are accepted because I'm a big fan, fun teddy bear of bullshit that can deliver a truth bomb. But at the same time, I'm gonna smile and joke for you and make you feel like I'm just gonna give you the biggest fucking hug. And what we're seeing right now is pressure being put on the center left and the center right from a left flank that is saying there's no fun to be had. What needs to be had is affordability and justice and an end to foreign genocides and health care and environmental justice, housing rights. These are the things that make stuff fun. And these are the things that we care about. And there's no one on either side of this political discussion in America that seems to be seriously concerned with addressing these problems that ail working people and that threatened the dignity of people in the global South. And when you're watching a debate where people are measuring their words, they are trying to maintain political alliances that they are going to need to attain some sort of political ambition that they have. When you see someone that just goes, people are suffering. Here's how we help. And I'm not willing to hear anything that is not that. Even if you disagree with them, even if you don't like the fucking Paleo, God damn Marxism or socialism or all of the stuff that you have been told that it is your American duty to fear. What you hear is sincerity. What you hear is passion. And what you hear is the combination of an emotional and intellectual seriousness about solving American issues. And like, I just feel like in the time that we are existing in right now, when there's so much right in front of our face and there's so much that we're having to contend with, if you are not able to stand on a stage and be that person, you will look fucking foolish. We know that we entered into a war and right away the consequences were made known to us. Like hundreds of school girls died because Trump decided he wanted his war. Is that what you want? Is that what you want to be a part of? Palestinians being displaced from their homes in Gaza, in the west bank, being occupied in Gaza, displaced in the west bank, being the victims of terrorism? Like, we see that right away. And you're forced to make a decision about it. You're forced to decide, and people just want to know what you've decided. And that sometimes seems pretty difficult for these trained politicians to articulate when they put a microphone in front of their face.

[B]

I mean, when I watched it, not that I agreed with anything that the Republican candidates have to say. But the argument that they are making that for 16 years, Democrats have sat in. A Democrat has sat in the governor's seat. And it seems like the state not. Seems like the state is getting worse and issues that have existed prior to that are not getting solved. People want something different. So of course the Republicans are leading. When you watch the Democrats stand up there and literally say some of the same things over again, I didn't hear anything about, like, even when it came to affordability, it was, well, we need to build a transportation system that people can access to get to. I just was like, okay, that's not it. Or like Becerra being like, we don't. I don't. You know, California has the highest tax in the country on gas. And so it's like, well, that's because it's being used to fix streets. And he doesn't believe that we should lower that. This is Becerra. This is a Democrat who I see a lot of people out there supporting. He's rising and I'm on the way. This morning I drove from Burbank to Beverly Hills to West Hollywood. The. And I was like. Cause I was listening to the debate as I was driving, and I just started counting all the potholes I was seeing because I was fixated on it because of what I was listening to. And it's right. It's like, why are we continuing with this high tax when the money isn't fixing the shit in the street, it's not fixing anything or it's not being accurately applied, like, in the way that it should be. I don't know where the money's going. That's how we feel about homelessness. That's how we feel about. About a lot of issues. Just affordability, like every. I'd never heard anybody really talking about corporations. The one thing I really liked that a Democrat said is when the Matt Mahan guy, I think I'm pronouncing his name right, was like, the only thing that Tom Steyer has housed is inmates and something with oil. And it's like, yeah, like, it's hard. It's hard to trust that a billionaire who made his money in such a away with prisons and oil is now, like, all about the people. That's tough. That's tough for me. That's tough for me.

[A]

This could be this. Just to let you know, I don't know if we haven't talked about this. This could be a future higher learning guest. There have been some feelings that have been extended.

[B]

Great. Steyer talked to Hasan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, like, I.

[A]

What you trying to learn?

[B]

I guess I would. It's a question that I would ask you. My number one question is, how do we trust a billionaire? I did like his response. He said, I might be the only billionaire running, but I am not the only billionaire in this race because Matt, the mayor of San Jose, is a tech guy. So, like, I get what he's saying, or I get that. That point, but I would love for Tom Steyer to come on here. I would love to talk to him.

[A]

People in California, you want some stuff on this, go to calmatters.org that is a place that I've really been going lately to, like, keep up on everything that has to do with. With California. I find a lot of times that I'm more concerned with the inner workings of politics at times about what's going on in Louisiana than I am in California. You know, this is my home. It's been my home for 20 years. But obviously, this debate comes on the heels of Swalwell exiting the race amid all of the allegations against him. And so you've seen Xavier surge in the governor race, and people are wondering whether or not this is the year for a Republican to pick off.

[B]

People want something different.

[A]

Yeah, pick off.

[B]

Do something different. Do something different. I hated. I was so frustrated. To me, this is easy, but maybe it's not.

[A]

Are you. You throwing up the. You throwing up blood Gang? You going red?

[B]

No. God, no.

[A]

Oh, shit. You better get out of here.

[B]

But nothing I didn't want now that

[A]

Rachel's a Republican, the podcast going up.

[B]

I didn't want to vote for one. I mean, I'm. I'm the Reds for sure, but not that kind of red. I did not.

[A]

You. You Damu.

[B]

I ain't D. I'm a Delta. That's what they call Deltas. Oh, hold on, D. No, I'm not.

[A]

Okay. You saying it like that, it seems like you being disrespectful of their culture a little bit.

[B]

It was disrespectful for you to actually think that I would be claiming there.

[A]

They got Damu. They got shit in. They got damu in Dallas. I don't know what you've been throwing up at Fuel City.

[B]

This is the only thing I throw up.

[C]

Right.

[A]

It's the same. It's still gang shit, by the way. But like, I will say this. When you did that a second ago, you know, I don't know. Have you tapped in? Hold on. This is a question. You've been here for how long now?

[B]

Five and a half years.

[A]

Have you tapped in to what have you, like, you know, you want to move around. You tap in, but not check in. But do you have different places that you can go and different people that you can call to move around in the various areas of Los Angeles? Have you tapped in yet?

[B]

I'd like to think that if I needed to hit up glasses, I could.

[A]

That's.

[B]

See, I'd like to think this is

[A]

the example of what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is that, like, let's say something's had glasses. People. I tap. So all kinds of people. You tap in. Like, hey, man, what's this? What's the situation?

[B]

Remember when I was not aware of certain colors and I wore the orange bandana and you were like. They were like, hoover shit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I had a couple people, right? We'd love for you to hit us up.

[A]

The Hoovers reached out.

[B]

I saw one person said something. I can't remember a couple of people, but you were like. They were fucking with you. Wearing.

[A]

Yeah, the Hoovers. Like, the Hoovers. But they reached out to you.

[B]

Not they. Somebody who said they were. I don't know. It could have been.

[A]

No, man. Shout out. Smack. Shout out.

[B]

It could have been somebody who.

[A]

Shout out all the Hoovers out there. It's a different group of to with.

[B]

Okay, but I'm not claiming anybody. I claim was claiming that I was. They call Deltas the Reds.

[A]

But. But you don't have a. When you said what you said, you don't have a problem with Damu Pyu. You don't have a problem. Just making sure you know what I'm saying.

[C]

Like.

[A]

Like I said, I'm. I'm with all y'. All.

[B]

That's a part of the Michael movie as well.

[A]

I mean, I'm in every set. I'm in all the gangs. So wherever set you're in, wherever you're at, I'm with y', all, okay?

[B]

We are the world.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, whatever. You bang your neighborhood. 190th Street. I'm 190th Street.

[B]

Now. Stop.

[A]

57th Street. I'm that, too. East side, west side, south, north, the Valley. Wherever you at. Whatever it is. Whatever it is. Can I just eat in the restaurant? Cause I'm fucking with y'. All. Pasadena, y' all got sets. Y' all don't have sets. There's definitely Bloods in Pasadena.

[C]

Yes, there is.

[B]

Stop. Right?

[A]

You're one of them.

[B]

No, I'm not.

[A]

Are you involved in gang action? No, but you're aware of the sets.

[B]

I.

[A]

Are you tapped in?

[B]

I'm very tough.

[A]

Let's have a gang episode.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Let's have a gang episode.

[B]

Let's not.

[A]

And the gang episode could be.

[B]

Let's go to break.

[A]

Let's take a break on the other side of the break. I want everybody that's out here to consider the cultures that exist around the streets. Sure. And being tapped in and all of that stuff, just tap in. You go places, you play basketball, you tap in. Hey, Van, it's good to see you. Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Because behind every headline is a bottom line. Whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings. There's a money side to every story. And when you see the money side, you understand what others miss. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe [e-mail] I'm like, nah, brother, it's good to see you. All right, you guys, Higher Learning, you

[B]

can't even get ready.

[A]

Today we have a staple. Kendrick Sampson, you know him. All right. Actor, activist. Do you like to be identified as such? Activist?

[C]

Um, I. I mean, yeah. The truth is for me, I think there's no separation. I think that we've lost the purpose of what art and performance and culture really is. It's our true power, how we take care of each other and survive. And acting was always. Storytelling was literally always part of that. So it wasn't ever supposed to be just a pastime, an extracurricular activity, a cool skill that you got. It is really anchored to our purpose.

[A]

Artists have always challenged societal norms.

[C]

Not even just challenged. Built.

[A]

Built. Absolutely.

[C]

The only reason we understand each other is the story that brought us together. Why we're family, why we belong to this land, why we moved here. That's the culture that you hold onto to say that's why I'm here.

[A]

Absolutely. Vampire Diaries how to Get Away with Murder of the Flash. Insecure you guys all know him from. But right now we are talking about to him because he is in what is surely going to be the number one movie in America. The Michael Jackson documentary. Documentary biopic called Michael where you play Quincy Jones. Quincy Jones, a 100% A plus, 24 karat gold cultural deity. Quincy Jones. Absolutely. First question for you. Thank you for joining us on Higher Learning. What did it mean for you to play Quincy Jones in what is going to be probably the definitive biopic about Michael Jackson's life?

[C]

It happened very quickly, so I didn't have a whole lot of Time to process it. But it was a lot of pressure, personal pressure, because I was obsessed with Quincy Jones coming up. My brother was obsessed with Michael. He would dress like him, he would dance, he would kick around the house like he was obsessed. But I was a big jazz head, and it wasn't. My parents were always interested. Why? Cause none of them were necessarily jazz musicians. They all played instruments, but nobody was like. So they were like. But my dad was like, if you gonna do jazz, you gotta know Quincy Jones. And we went from Quincy Jones. I mean, you're talking about cultural icon, cultural shifter, storyteller extraordinaire. One of the top conductors of all time. Like this man. There's no way to measure his reach.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

From Thriller being the most successful album of all time, you can compare. People are definitely gonna argue with me about it, but you can actually compare the cultural shift of Thriller to the cultural shift of the Wiz. He was also one of the producers of Fresh Prince of Bel Air, the Color Purple. The Color Purple. I mean, this man with Ray Charles

[A]

did the San Francisco theme. There's, like, legitimately nothing that you could say.

[C]

And I'm like, the last thing you gonna do. They like, hey, you wanna play this character? I'm like, the last thing I need to do is fuck this up. It's not like you can't find no footage of him talking and who he actually is and. And how he actually is. So that was the pressure that I felt more than anything was just. I wanna honor how divine his impact has been to our culture, our community, Black folks specifically. And. Yeah. And he was just cool.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

You know, I'm like. And people. And I had to be the other thing. I found out Lorenz Tate was in the biopic at the same time. Obviously, he's playing Berry Gordy, but I was like, he played Quincy Jones. They gonna be like, you ain't do it as good as him. I was like, you know what?

[A]

I forgot.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's a credit to you. Not to.

[C]

Not him by any means.

[B]

I just forgot until you just said that. Did you get to work with Quincy at all? Did you talk to his family? Did you, like, get to sit with him or any kind of.

[C]

No, I legit. Like my homegirl. I always say, my homegirl ain't gotta be like, she's a professional. She's a casting director. But my homegirl, who I came up with, who we look out for each other, like, for real. For real. Called, like, Friday Night and was like, you in town next week? Can you Be on set. Do you want to play Quincy Jones? And I was like, girl, can I play Quincy Jones? I was like, wait a minute. Am I worthy? What you mean? What you talking about? And she was like, these people in here talking about they don't know your work. I'm about to walk in there with you on FaceTime. She was like, you should play. Can you be on set on Monday?

[A]

And you didn't have to audition for it. We didn't talk about this last night.

[C]

I did a little bit. So that's when I was shouting out Lil Shante. And a bunch of people in that audience knew her. So that's why they were.

[A]

They like, Lee, Lee, explain the relationship between casting director and actor. Like, peel that back a little bit.

[C]

It is not this, okay? It's not. What happened to me is my homegirl. That's not how casting directors operate. Vicky Thomas is a legendary casting director. She ain't about to be calling me like, hey, I got this thing. You know what I'm saying? But my homegirl, who works with her, who's also an incredible professional and incredible casting director, she was like, I'm looking out for you. They said, they don't know your work. They bout to find out. And it could have went completely left. She could have walked in there with me on FaceTime. And they'd be like, all right, thank you. Bye. But they were interested and they needed somebody by Monday. And I put. I'm pretty confident they. I workshopped the tape, you know, and Because I don't obviously, look, I ain't got no hair. Like, we want to see you as Quincy Jones in this, you know, attire, you know, whatever. And I think I did a scene. And literally the reason I'm like. I think. I think. I think is a couple reasons. During the reshoots, actually, I missed one of the biggest scenes because I got in a big accident last year and had some. I was in ICU and things like that. So my memory. Sometimes I'd be like, wait a goddamn minute. But the other thing is, it happened so fast. It was like literally Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I might have gotten to sleep a couple hours and be on set at like 4 in the morning Monday, it was that fast. So I don't even. Honestly, the process, there was no real process. It was like, we. This seemed aligned. We wanna make sure it's right and verified. Confirm. Y' all good? Y' all good? All right. Send him his information. Make him sign that contract. They had to do all the negotiations, everything. That quick.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Yeah. So. And I still didn't have the script the first day, really. First time I got to set the

[B]

movie, it's only like, what, two and a half hours? So there's only so much that you can include. But we obviously know Quincy's such a huge part of Michael's career. What do you wish that we could have seen more of in the movie with Quincy?

[A]

Ooh.

[C]

So here's a couple things. One, to actually answer your question. Cause I realized I didn't. I. I didn't get to spend any time with Quincy. But it ties into that answer. Honestly, I just wish people could see how cool, laid back and what an incredible storyteller he was. Because I have a habit, a practice of when I'm going to these boozy Hollywood parties. I find, or any party, to be completely honest, because I love going somewhere and getting groove on, you know, getting my body moving, eating something, drinking and having a good time. But I will go to a corner. I will have fun by myself all night in a corner by myself, grooving, you know, doing whatever I got. They be like, damn, who else does that? Quincy Jones. Especially the Hollywood parties. I'm like, in a corner with some food. I hope the music good. I'll be grooving to myself. If I happen to talk to people, I do. If I don't, I don't. He took over the corner with his security. And this is at one of them gram parties where people are coming in. He's got icons, like, lining up to talk to him. He's like, I don't want to talk to none of them. He literally would not let me go. He was like. He would sit down every time. Me and my homies, like, literally, Jennifer, like Ryan, they. We were sitting there, and he'd be like, I'm gonna tell y', all, hey. You know, talking directly to me. He'd be like, you know that time. I'm gonna tell you about this time I produced the opening number of the Beijing Olympics. Did you see that?

[B]

Just casually, I'm like, that's one of

[C]

your casual drops, man. Like, I wasn't moving. Like, every time. The only reason I wanted to move was I was like, oh, I feel like I'm interrupting. They need to talk to you. He'd be like, sit down twice. Two different projects.

[A]

So you did get to spend some time with him. It's almost there.

[C]

Years before you met him, before you were in alignment. Because that's all I had to pull from. I knew too much about his life. So the research that's a different story. I could watch footage of him, endless footage of him, but there's nothing that would have been able to prepare me more for sitting with him twice, four to five hours with him, just telling me stories the whole time. That's what told me that he was one of the greatest storytellers of all time. It was that intimate, sitting there connection where I'm enthralled and I ain't moving. I'm like, and then what happened? And then you did what.

[B]

But that makes so much sense. Because that's what the music does.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So it makes sense that he's a great. He can captivate you with his words because he's been doing that with his music for us for decades.

[C]

Exactly. And music is storytelling.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

That is the culture.

[A]

So when you say the first time you saw the script is when you were on set, how was it working with Antwan and the rest of the people to make sure that you were delivering the Quincy that they need you to be in the movie? You getting the script like that soon? I mean, that late in the process.

[C]

Okay, ask that again.

[A]

So, like, you getting the script? You're getting the script right when you get on set, right. These scenes between you and. And Jafar as Michael Jackson, these are scenes that have to do with some of the most incredible creative moments in the history. Was there anything. There was a way that you worked with the director or somebody else, It'd be like, did they craft Quincy for you in collaboration on set? Since you were looking at the written word the first time you got there, you didn't have a lot of chance to get into your method.

[C]

No, see, that was a lot of the divine alignment. I knew Jafar before we started filming. I've known them for. I've known Genevieve Jafar, your majesty, since they were much younger and working on their own art and their own craft, their own skill. Super disciplined. Jafar is disciplined in his own art. Far.

[A]

He would have to be way before

[C]

this, way before this, and his own voice, his own creativity, to see him embody this. That was me watching alignment right outside of me. Right. Watching him be able to. All the same elements, these incredible elements come together to care and nourish, care for and nourish him through this process of honoring not only this iconic figure, but his family member. Right.

[A]

His uncle.

[C]

And the pressure of that could have taken any. This is his first film. Could have taken anybody out, but he was. I got to see him be cared for and for us to know each other and Be like, okay, this is crazy, right? You know what I'm saying? You know, like, we both got some pressure. Like, you need some water, right? You want to get. Oh, you know, there's banana pudding.

[A]

Comforting each other, making each other. Yeah.

[C]

It's caring for each other, which is what art is supposed to be. Through that process, period, in order to get the authenticity, in order to connect to the character, you need to be. You need your nerves to be lowered. You need to be cared for. You need to care for each other. You gotta be really conscious of your body and your spirit, and that was comforting. Nia looked out for me. She told me as soon as I got the set. She was like, let me tell you what.

[A]

How long had they been shooting by the time you got there?

[C]

Probably. I'm not sure. I think he started. Cause I started at the beginning of 2024, so January or February.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

I think they had started before in the fall. Before that, possibly, yeah. But I'm not sure how long, but it was a couple months. And I think he had been preparing for, like, a year.

[A]

So they were in their rhythm and stuff. So when she's bringing you in, she's, like, kind of getting you.

[C]

Well, I'm just stopping by, you know, people trailers. I'm. Right, right, right, right. I'm like, hey, let me get a blessing real quick. He's like, hey, hey, congratulations. I'm like, hey, thank you. Hey, hey. From you. That's cool, you know? And then I know Coleman, so I really was just looking for guidance and grounding. And then the insecure Hair team. You feel me? You feel me? Like, I was like, I need my people around me because this is such a huge project and such pressure to really honor somebody who you. Who not only everybody else, truly admires. I have a personal admiration and connection with, you know, so more than anything, honestly, that was a blessing. And then I met Antwan for the first time, and we connected automatically. Like, you know, hey, yeah, that's the. You know what I'm saying? And he would literally his notes because they actually. I was blessed enough that they took. If I had some notes, I'm like, actually, this doesn't make any sense musically. Like, that's not how music works. Or this word. That's not how you would use this word. That's not how you would use whatever. That they actually would listen. And so, honestly, every day I got to say it, he'd be like, what you think Quincy would do? Oh, right here. And even. How would Quincy say this? He would do most of the time, 99% of the time. His note for me, he would come in, he'd sit down, and he'd be like, kendrick, I need you to

[A]

do your thing.

[C]

I need you to put some.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

I need. Kendrick, can you put some.

[B]

You do music?

[C]

Yeah. I grew up.

[B]

You did not know that? Wait, like, what?

[C]

I grew up in music. I have no desire professionally, but it's a grounding for me, especially piano.

[B]

You play by ear? I can only read.

[C]

I can read.

[B]

I cannot play by ear.

[C]

That's something that I really had to learn. I can. I'm not great at it. I'm not skilled at it, but I'm better at reading, for sure.

[B]

But that added to the character. I mean, you were able to use not just your love for Quincy or just music, but, like, what you imagine.

[C]

And I had to study music theory and things. So I'm like. And he's intricate with music like that. And people don't realize he's a conductor. He's like, you know, full orchestras. This studio ain't got nothing on me, you know? Yeah. And I mean, you can see, like, I admire. Like, that's one of the biggest admirations I have of anybody. And to be able to divinely be connected.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I was questioning for years, like, why did he even tell me them stories? Like, how did that happen? How did we end up in the same place?

[A]

I wonder what energetically was calling him to sit down to the man that would play. It's so interesting.

[B]

For hours.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, how did it even start? Were you. Did you just, like, say, hey, like, you went up to him? Cause he was in the corner.

[C]

No, he found his corner. And I. I was in my corner.

[B]

Mm.

[C]

I was in my corner. He found his corner, and I happened to be invading it. You know what I'm saying? He was like, oh, you in my corner. Sat down and started talking. He was like, hey, let me tell you something.

[B]

Nah, energy is a real thing. I don't know if you can say this, but were there parts that you filmed that didn't make it?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, maybe. Is there a scene that we didn't get to.

[C]

Oh, a lot. Yeah. There was a lot of him going them in the studio together. Most of what you didn't see is one I got in an accident and wasn't able to be in the awards. When they. When they got to the awards ceremony. I'm pretty confident that's what it was. An awards ceremony or some show. Some big show. Either way, Wasn't able to make that scene. And then there we shot. I mean, they had to do extensive reshoots in 2025. I mean, yeah, we shot everything 2024. They shot enough for a few movies in 2024.

[A]

Right.

[C]

To be completely honest. So there's a lot, I'm sure, that I have no idea even exists that I didn't get to see. But the stuff around Quincy, honestly, was really cool. Moments between Jafar, I mean, Quincy and Michael exploring, which probably actually going back to your question, what I wish people saw is more of that exploration of them caring for each other. Because people didn't realize, obviously. Cause it's not the Quincy movie. Quincy was going through a transition at the time, too. He transitioned several genres from jazz to funk and disco and whatever those kind of trends were at the time. And he got a lot of criticism. You venturing into this genre now, man, you ain't gonna be able to do that. Pop culture, rock, you're not gonna be able to. You know, Barry Gordy, I believe they had a rivalry. And he was like, yeah, leave that to us. We do pop better. You know, like, you outdated. And so he was challenging himself to find his creative voice in that moment. And the same thing in his independence. And I mean, the same thing with Michael's independence from his family and finding his own creative voice. They were helping each other on that journey. And neither one of them could have predicted. No matter. I don't care how much this movie or any other storyteller tries to say that Michael and Quincy or whoever knew that the success they aimed for, that success is a lie.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Because they couldn't have imagined that success. Even the biggest album of all time, in their head, is not success.

[A]

Thriller. 50 million. What is thriller like?

[C]

Oh, no, like 100 million. Like whatever it is.

[A]

Like, who Imagine. Yeah. Like, it's something that's.

[C]

There's no way.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's difficult. You know what? I didn't ask last night. And while I keep saying last night. Last night we had unwrapping the real screen that we do once a month here in Los Angeles. And we did the Michael movie last night. You and Lorenz Tate came out there and we talked about the movie. I forgot to mention that Lorenz had also played Quincy.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Played Monray.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. No, that's what he was.

[A]

I know. So, like, in that situation, I forgot to mention that last night. So you guys had a Quincy moment, and then he went to be Berry Gordy and you went to be Quincy it's all like, kind of. It's all kind of interesting. It all worked out. I want to ask you about something else. So the movie is out. People have been seeing the movie. Now the movie's coming out this weekend, and there's a conversation on the Internet, not just about the movie, but about criticism in general and how we take a critical look at things that we want to celebrate as an actor that is in a movie. Number one, do you pay attention to reviews? Number two, do you think conversations about criticism are fair or. This is a long question. Number three, do you think that there are some films that we should just endeavor into a celebratory way and not criticize them at all?

[C]

There's nothing that's exempt from criticism. Like, I believe that. I mean, if you. I think if you are an artist who does not want your art to be criticized, then make it for yourself. Hang it on your own wall. Because, I mean, it can. I can't completely block out people's criticism and their opinions on my work, but I think part of the advantage I have is one, I'm, like, thoroughly grounded in black radical liberation. I've had death threats for my politics. I've had you criticizing. You gon criticize my performance. I don't give a fuck what your opinion is about my performance. Just to be completely honest. And I've been that way my whole life. I'm gonna. I'm always obsessed with the work. And if I feel like my. This is why I need therapy too. But truly, there's nothing you could tell me. If I know that I put everything, all my effort, even if I failed at something, if I put all the effort and work and I worked harder than everybody to get to where I was and do what I did, no matter what the outcome of it is, I'm satisfied I did what I was supposed to do. And that's how I feel about any of my roles. If I'm gonna. I get super anxious and excited when I book it, when I understand that now I have to explore the character and design this and, you know, figure out what my opinions are, what my creative take on it is or whatever. And then starting to practice with each other and find shit. I mean, that's exciting and that's what drives me, that type of work. And then once it's performed, I can go to bed. I don't need no after party. I don't need no nightcap. I'm like, I've done what I did. I feel good about myself, and I can sleep well, the release of all that distribution, marketing, that ain't my job, right? Y' all edited it together. If I don't like the way y' all edit it, that's y' all fault, not mine. I did my work right.

[A]

Are you familiar with any of the criticism of the movie? Do you think it's fair?

[C]

I think any criticism is fair, yeah. I mean, do I think it's right? I don't know.

[A]

Cause you're not indulging into it that intently to know whether or not you agree with it or whatever.

[C]

I truly don't care.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I have my opinion on it. I have my opinion on the movie. I have my opinion on my performance. And that's gonna stay with me. And I feel good about that. Whatever everybody else thinks about it, unless what you think about it affects my pocket in 2026, with inflation and things, I could give two fucks what you think about somebody else's project. I've done my work.

[A]

Last question about this. Should we be different in the way that we criticize black art or black art that pays tribute to black luminaries like Michael Jackson?

[C]

I think we should take more care with it.

[A]

Say more.

[B]

What do you mean?

[C]

I don't think that anything is exempt from criticism. A lot of the time we don't want to criticize because we want to seem as perfect as possible, to feel like we deserve life. Because America has beat us down as black people, specifically to the point that they like the mythology, the stories, the lies that they tell about us are supposed to convince us that we don't deserve what? Life, health. You know what I'm saying? And so we try not to criticize each other because we, like, let's keep that in the family. We don't want. We need to look like we better than we are, more powerful, that we deserve what we have. But that makes a lot of harm go unaccounted for, a lot of harm go unchecked. And not being able to be held accountable for our art, we just need to care for it more. We need to take care in how we're criticizing it, understand why we're criticizing it, and what criticism would actually improve things moving forward. You know what I mean? Like, either the next story this person tells or even this story itself. Can it be continued to be edited? Do we want to do it again? What were the mistakes that was made, and how do we protect the next story so that it doesn't make them same mistakes? How does it affect how we think of what's possible? How does it affect how we think of ourselves? I think that is the criticism that we need to dive into for all of our art. It don't matter how iconic it is.

[B]

That was a great answer. I'm gonna shift a little bit. We see you in this playing Quincy. You got Malcolm X coming up. You're portraying Malcolm X. But in the past you've talked about how unpredictable and difficult this entertainment industry can be and how, you know, like, I think you've said, like, how a certain percentage, like a high percentage, 90% of actors, like, are out of work. And I know with COVID and the strike and all of that, it's just like the industry seems to be changing so much now. You know, you've got these two big iconic roles coming up. If you could speak to what's a struggle that people on the outside just don't see or understand when it comes to the entertainment industry, because they see your success, but then they don't see maybe some of the quieter moments.

[C]

Two things, part of me, if I ask, and you can remind me if I forget, but talking about going to the HBCU screenings at the. We went to. In Baton Rouge, to Southern State University and Bluff. There's a grounding that. That gave me in our art. Human jukebox that really. Yeah, there's a human jukebox man. Like iconic. Yeah, come on.

[A]

Right over there. Up there in North Baton Rouge.

[C]

You know what I'm saying? That when I'm telling you me so

[B]

much when you say Baton Rouge, it's just.

[C]

We've lost him.

[A]

We've lost him. TT Elaine. TT Elaine is one of the names of the game.

[B]

We know how you feel.

[C]

We did the same shit last night. But wait, your question before I. I

[B]

was just talking about the entertainment industry.

[C]

Oh, right, right, right. So that's one thing is just like what the grounding of storytelling and art really is supposed to do and empower us like that. That's a disconnect, especially in Hollywood. Most of the way the industry is designed is to disempower, to take advantage of, to make us have a gig economy, you know, always looking for the next check. And honestly, to compete with encourages us to compete with each other when we really should be supporting each other. The other thing that is similar to these biopics and I think why people are so interested in these stories and these stories are so powerful is taking that level that's hard to digest and understand of the success of some art or whatever they were successful in financially, whatever it is that's hard to process on how that works on the daily life. How do they eat, how do they love, how do they fight with each other? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. In those intimate moments for things like this, where you're like, this is Michael. It's such an iconic movie. People don't realize. We shot that in 2024. They don't realize. Malcolm X is a longtime dream of mine. I read the autobiography the first year I moved to LA because. Richard Lyons, my acting coach, Richard Lyons, put me and my homegirl Ana Jope, who I went to high school with. We were out here together. We did Betty Shabazz and Malcolm X. For my first acting class, I had to have. I came to LA and I was like, I have to have a black male acting coach. I ain't never had no black man as an acting coach. I need somebody to tell me what it's like to be a black man as an actor in la. And I found Richard Lyons and we did a scene from Malcolm X and he was like, uh, that ain't it. You need to read this whole autobiography. And that was my grounding in acting and politics. Right. There's a divine alignment there. And the time that I finally got to play that, maybe 17 years later, 16 years later, something like that, when I finally get to play it, it's directly after the most historic strike in Hollywood of all time. You know, how baroque. Like, I'm experiencing all this success. And when I'm telling you the stress that the industry is in right now is under right now, the stress that our bank accounts. I'm running around here, I know I look good. And I want everybody to know I still need money, I still gotta earn check to check, you feel me? Like, at this point in my career, and I'm way more privileged than so many actors that have even longer resumes than mine.

[A]

Right, right.

[C]

In terms of how I'm able to sustain myself. And that's what I really want people to understand, that these big, glitzy glamour moments where we get to walk carpets and have a whole lot of marketing is honestly for their profit. We still looking for our next job. That happened already. We're not getting paid for the press, you know what I'm saying? We just proud of our work and we wanna promote it, but we still have to live life. I'm still recovering from my accident. I'm still recovering from my bank account from the strike and the pandemic, you know what I'm saying? I'm still gotta take care of my Family. I got seven brothers and sisters. You know what I'm saying? I got 25 nephews and nieces. That's what I think people need to factor in more than anything that it is real life and that we deserve to be sustained in a way that's healthy and that it's really grounded in our purpose and community building and how we take care of each other, our culture.

[A]

This is something that's under discussed. You said something earlier that I feel like we've been trying to kind of figure out for a while now, which is. If you're around town, there is.

[C]

Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. I forgot. Because I need to. I want to pump you up a little bit. The other part of it was Baton Rouge, which is the grounding in the culture, the true grounding in the culture. So in thinking about those big moments to small moments, when I. When we went to.

[A]

Right outside Scotlandville.

[C]

Listen. When we went to Southern. When we went to Southern, that was my main message to them was, just as much as you think it's a privilege to have Michael at your university at Southern, it's a privilege for us to be promoted by the human Jukebox. Are you kidding? Do you understand that them same hairs that stand up on the back of your neck when you see the moonwalk are the same hairs that stand up on the back of the neck around the whole stadium? When the majorettes come out, when the drum majors come out, when the drum line starts, when the horns go. You feel me? I'm like, that is culture. We grounded. We feel good. We feel empowered. In those moments, it doesn't matter what's going on in life. During the battle of the bands.

[A]

Yeah, no battle.

[C]

I'm strong. You feel me?

[A]

It's no better. There's one band and then there are other bands. There's one band. There's one band.

[C]

One band, one sound.

[A]

There's one band. It's the Human Jukebox, Southern University. And then there are a lot of other bands who try.

[B]

They lost this year in the Bayou fans, whatever.

[C]

To tie that in. That is the power that I. In the same way that I want. I want people to understand that there's life still happening and struggling. We deserve to be sustained and healthy. I also want to ground us in the fact that Hollywood has made us believe that art is some pastime. It is our empowerment. It is our culture. Our culture is how we empower each other.

[A]

Well said. So what I was getting at is that you talked about a little bit earlier about how we are Sometimes in this town, in competition with one another, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And we know each other. Cause we all do a thing. And we see each other. Cause we all do a thing. I saw Scott last night, and it was good to be able to big up Scott on him having Mary on his podcast and all of that stuff. You get to a certain point and you don't really feel like you're in competition with your contemporaries as much as you used to. I will say this, though, and this is sometimes people often talk about, like, a crabs in a barrel mentality, or they talk about how there's a sense of competition that exists out here with us that is different. And I think that it is. But you also said something else that we oftentimes don't link, which is you have a black experience that you come from, and that black experience makes things. Makes your art very important to you in a sincere way.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So there are probably certain things that you wouldn't do. And then on top of that, you also have a big family, and you also come from a certain place. And the wealth bed that a lot of white people and other artists come from that can come out here and survive a lean time for a little bit longer. Mama and Daddy can help. Like, the whole family could help all of that stuff. A lot of our artists, they don't have that. And that turns the temperature up so, so much on the competition, on the feeling of being exiled from the industry. When you hear a lot of these artists come back after years and they go, yo, I couldn't work for a long time. And it seems like they're crazy. And sometimes even within our culture, we say that they're crazy. My thing is knowing what I know coming from where I come from, they don't be lying. It's. For a long time, they couldn't do the one thing they felt like they were here to do. And there's nowhere else to get money. So we have to almost have. And I don't know how we have it, a separate conversation on what it's like to exist as a black artist, what it's like to exist as someone who is out here trying to do their thing, and there's less of an infrastructure, not just artistically, but, like, financially, like, you might not be able to do the thing that you're doing for a long time, and then you still black. Is there an answer to that question that's me meandering and going on. Is there an answer to how we are in better support of one another? Do we need to Start a fund, which I've been actually thinking about doing. Does there need to be some way that we can? Because we have a lot of rich people and we have a lot of other people. Is there something that we need to do to be able to take care of black art and make sure that it evolves in a way like during a strike? Should we have been thinking about maybe more so what it was like for somebody like you or what it would be like for other members of the upper middle class or lower middle class of this industry? Do we think holistically enough?

[C]

No. And that's intentional. That's intentional. I think we have to understand it's not just that we don't have infrastructure to support us, we don't have support systems. It's. I mean, the first Hollywood blockbuster that ignited Hollywood being built at the scale it is was Birth of a Nation. It was a KKK commercial. And it wasn't like, I'm not exaggerating that it was the White House and the industry in general. Thomas Edison, they were scared of the power of people being able to make feature length films didn't discouraged it. Them choosing the first film to be screened at the White House as Birth of a Nation is saying a lot people don't realize. That was 1915, 1917, where the KKK had virtually become defunct. They had lost their membership because they were like, y' all free. Damn. They didn't have the white hooded costumes and things like that. That came from Birth of a Nation. My God, stop calling me. But that came from Birth of a Nation, the costume design. They hosted parties based on this film. This is the power of story used for evil. Right? They used the costumes. They would dress up in the costumes and host parties all over the US starting here. And that's how they researched the KKK membership and started the lynchings and things from the 1950s all the way to the 1960s, right? Started the terror of black communities. So it's not just that we don't have what we need like the systems, the support that we need. It's that we are attacked, that we are constantly attacked. That we're constantly extracted from the same thing that they're still doing to Africa, right? Still taking, still that same slavery system exists through cops. We still have to deal with cops while we're going to work, you know what I'm saying? We still have to deal with whatever the systems are throwing were designed to throw at us. And that includes how Hollywood was built on this capitalist white supremacist, white delusion bullshit. Even like war films, the department, the partnership with the Department of Defense. Like for real. For real.

[A]

All that you're saying is true. What I'm saying is that some of us are very wealthy though. And so what I want to talk

[C]

about that's part of the problem is us thinking that money is the answer.

[A]

No, no, no, no. Well, money is not the answer. What I'm talking about specifically is I, and I haven't thought this out. I've been thinking about it intently. I would like to see some sort of system, some sort of thing and maybe to where there is some way for the young. Real quick, we got to get off this because like we could talk about this all day. I talked to a gentleman, right? And he had been nominated for NAACP award. He'd been nominated for naacp. I talked to him after it. Nominated for NAACP award for a short film. And I asked him like, you know, did you get a chance to come to the awards? You get a chance to come out here, Your, your movie is nominated. Like when are you going to like, do you get a chance to come to LA and do all this? He's. I can't, like, I don't have the money to come out to la. I don't have the money to get here and work my. I don't have the money. Yeah.

[C]

The problem is that he should, shouldn't need the money to do it. He shouldn't have to move to LA to do it. He should be able to do it in his own community. We should have the infrastructure to protect our stories. It shouldn't be so concentrated in one place. All the resources. That's how capitalism works. That's how America works, is figure out what you need and block your access to it so that I could charge you for it. That's profit. That's a profit model. The number one thing we need to stop thinking about is that wealthy people. Lejante got me this job, my homegirl. It wasn't a reach up. It was, hey, let's look out for each other. That's what we need to. We can actually build systems that do not operate on money. We have to figure out what. The chitlin circuit was not a joke. That was a full economy. That was a robust economy that was competitive to the new budding Hollywood. Hollywood hadn't established itself like that. They destroyed the chitlin circuit and our pride in it because of how successful it is. Blaxploitation. I'm like literally. Negro Actors Guild. Paul Robeson and folks founded the Negro Actors Guild. I'm pretty confident the same year as Screen Actors Guild, Screen Actors Guild was not representing black folks. It was still segregation. You feel me? We took care of each other. Took to make sure that they covered safe passage through sundown towns, covered funerals, childcare. It was a union. Lena Horn. All these folks participated. It was a union. Most people have no idea that we had our own black union before the Civil Rights Act.

[A]

But everything that you're saying though, is like economic partnership. Even the chitlin circle, the chitin chitlin circuit, is economic partnership because.

[C]

Right, but what I'm pointing out is if they had. Imagine how many obstacles they had. They were not considered humans. They had less money, less resources back then and built robust systems. I don't. While I'm saying.

[A]

But now we have more.

[C]

But while I'm saying. Yeah, exactly. Why I'm saying is it's not necessarily that it was just a robust economy. It was a robust system that could operate outside of their systems, that could operate outside of capitalism, that could operate outside of. Outside of profit, that we could take care of each other. We had our own school systems. We had our. Literally, they were great. We had our own medical systems. Even if you going after the

[A]

Civil

[C]

Rights act and you're thinking about the Black Panther free breakfast programs and free clinics that established what breakfast in school is right now. You get what I'm saying? We established those systems to take care of each other that ain't had shit to do with money.

[A]

Right?

[C]

So what we need to do is ask more questions about what the system should be and how it should operate and how we should be supporting each other in our own hometown so that we don't have to move away from our communities. We can still be grounded in our communities. We don't have to move to LA or New York to be successful. We can build that infrastructure right where we are and support each other and truly protect our streets.

[A]

Right. The last thing I'll say, so you understand what I'm saying, everything that you were saying is true. Right? But there's a combination. Early on you talked about the fact that you are a working actor. And being a working actor in the town, you had hit a skid and there was a point to where you're still recovering financially from the strike. Right? I know a lot of people like that, of course. And what I am saying is this to the point that you're talking about. What I'm saying is that oftentimes I know a lot of talented people that brother right There was telling me that he wanted to relocate. He shouldn't have to. You should be look there if you want to be. There's a million different businesses where, if you want to be in that business, like, there's a hub where you have to go. Like, hopefully there'll be hubs everywhere where you can go and do the thing that you want to do. He was talking about the fact that he could not take as big advantage of what was going on because he was financially cut off from something. They need to tap back in with him. What I am saying, to your point, everything that you're describing is legitimately what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is an intentional effort for us creatively, economically, and really socially and emotionally to take care of each other. Because the one thing that I am observing is that we just will not get taken care of by this system or by this industry any other way. There are too many talented people, too many talented people that I know that are trying to break in way more than there's ever been. Way more people who can't get read, way more people who can't get saw, Way more people who can't get it off the ground, Way more people who are breaking through. Like, there are a lot of people who are breaking through, but just too many people I know as our town and our business and our cultural part of this business continues to be dominated by the same creative voices for 10, 15, 20 years. The barrier to entry, I feel like, is becoming intractable. This has nothing to do with me. I have access to all kinds of people, can get anything that I want to do. But it frustrates me a little bit to see that there are a lot of people who just are having problems and these people are black. And in our industry, there is tremendous inequality amongst us, amongst black people. There's just a huge difference from the top people to the people that are trying to get in. And the only thing I'm trying to. The only thing I'm trying to say is everything that you're just saying is an eye examples of us taking care of us. How do we do it right now? Like, what do we do right now?

[C]

Yeah. And my main point is it's a big perspective shift to say, stop reaching up. It doesn't matter. It's designed. The systems are designed to make only a few people wealthy. It's designed to keep us poor, to keep the majority of us poor. This industry and every industry in America under capitalism is literally designed to keep most people poor and Every once in a while you get a black face in a high place and you're like, oh, there's hope. Maybe I could be them one day. If I compete with everybody else. Of course, yeah, that's what that encourages. What we have to say and realize is that those elite folks, those corporations, those billionaires, whatever, those elite folks are getting together to protect their money. Every system America has ever built was to protect what was stolen. That is how billionaires and corporations continue to thrive. It has nothing to do with the health of the workers, of the people. And so we have to do that. We have to make sure that we have an opportunity right now where we have to realize no corporation, no CEO, no board member, no, no, no elite wealthy person has the answers and understands and knows what's about to happen, how technology is going to settle, what the trends are actually going to be and what the new systems are, how the new systems are going to operate moving forward. They're waiting for us. This is the same thing they do every time. What resources do you need? Let me block you from those resources so that you can scramble and figure it out. And then once you figure it out, I'm gonna allow you some of these resources. If you sell it to me, if you give it to me, if you let me own what you figured out, what your solution is. And they take our solutions, they take our projects, they take our successes. What we need to do right now is use this window while they're trying to figure it out, while they're making us scramble how to survive and empower each other without them and not ever sell it to them. When you're talking about storytelling just in its basic sense, but also in the film industry, what we don't realize, people are moving to LA or New York and there's no capacity here to film the project. So you're coming here to spend all this money to be here and work somewhere else, and they go and extract from that community and put the profit back to whatever the corporations are. In order to have a successful film, you have to have childcare, you have to have security, plumbing, food, shelter. This is literally community building. Literally. That's how you protect and nourish our stories, is community building, making sure everybody is taken care of, that you have tutors, that you have childcare, water, fresh, clean water, you know, food, et cetera, et cetera, security. And people should be able to do that. And it would be much more authentic. These projects would be a lot more authentic if. If those resources were in every community and people could pursue acting, music, whatever it is. Tank and the Bangers. Tank is one of the best examples of that. She is in New Orleans with her homies, with her family, taking care of her family. She's been there the whole time. Local talent shouldn't be a shameful thing. That should be the goal. It shouldn't be this national level thing that you have to separate from your community. It's that you should be able to insecure. Taught me a lot about that. How, you know, when I moved to LA and I moved to South LA, to Slauson, people back then 2007 were like, you live south of the 10? Oh my God, this is scary. What she did with that project was nourish her community. It wasn't about, hey, I want to market this and advertise so that y' all could come gentrify our area and not be scared of it anymore. She was like, no, y' all don't understand how we thriving down here. Y' all don't understand how. How I love my people. This is the real of my people. And not only am I gonna show that I'm also gonna pay them. I'm gonna shoot in the communities. I'm gonna make sure that I pay the vendors what they're worth. I'm gonna hire people from the community, formerly incarcerated folks, literally. I'm gonna include everybody. I wanna make sure I'm working with the people, that I'm honoring their stories. And she built up infrastructure for folks through that. That's what we should be doing in all of our communities. That's what we should be doing in every community. And that infrastructure should be independent. It shouldn't all be concentrated under any corporation or any one place like Hollywood.

[B]

Yeah, last question. Let's talk about what you're doing. Because, I mean, I was gonna ask you about from when you first started, you got here to your perspective now, but you pretty much said it because I was gonna ask you what does actually making it look like for you now? But I feel like you just over the last couple of the back and forth, you and Van had you really just said what it is. And you do the work. You do the work outside of ag. So talk about build power. Talk about Samson Studios. Talk about the things that you are doing in the community where you're not just talking these things. Sorry, I got sidetracked. Cause I was thinking about. We were talking about California Governor earlier. We're not just talking about things. You're doing the things. So talk about some of those things that you're doing.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Build Power is the organization that I currently run. My staff is incredible, and we're grounded in black radical liberation, but we work with, building solidarity with folks from many different, you know, communities and backgrounds that we build in solidarity with, like, you know, you know, the Free Gaza movement, the. You know, it's supporting the liberation movements all over the world. And we work, we sit, like, square at the intersection of community building and culture. We champion storytelling and show people how to build power through storytelling, through culture. And that is when people are like, what was your. What's your dream birthday to have every. I have it every year, you know, with my people, with my.

[A]

You know what?

[B]

I'm so much fun. I'm so mad. I miss this year. It's so much fun, man. We went a couple of years. We were doing karaoke. We were seeing gospel, R and B. Kalika. I brought Kalika. I brought Kalika. I brought Kalika with me, man. We had fun.

[C]

You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Depending on her. It's okay.

[B]

Kalika Whip.

[C]

But I do it with my folks at Bill Power. And for almost probably 17 years now, 18 years, I used my birthday to raise money for whatever cause, whatever is dear to my heart or that I know is in need, a need for my people, my community. And honestly, you know, success in my world doesn't look like awards and things like that. Although I ain't saying I don't want them. You know what I'm saying? Celebrate me. But it really is how free we could be if I can. We're talking about Build Power. We didn't name it that on accident. If I could truly build power, power for my people. When I didn't ever want to leave Houston, I didn't ever want to leave. Everybody knew that. I tried to bring everybody with me. I was like, hey, you can move, too. Hey, let's come, like, come on. My whole. All my siblings, everybody. I didn't ever want to leave my community. I loved being grounded. I loved solving problems in my community. I loved the conflicts, you know, no matter how frustrating they were, I wanted to, you know, work through that. If we got to fight, we got to fight. If we got to do whatever we got to do, if I can empower the people that I love and I can make sure I have a vision of how free they could be, how free my nephews and nieces could be, how free my people could be, how healthy they could be. If I can do that, if I could leave this world better than I found it Leave them better than I found them. I feel successful already. You know what I'm saying? I'm just saying if they could be healthy, if I could make them more powerful, that makes me more powerful for sure and more than ever. I used to run away from. I'm slow. My brain works slow. I'm from Chopped and Screwed Central. You know, it's a slow culture, and I'm slow for that culture. My family is country. Country. And I used to run away from that, and now I'm realizing it's the solution to life. I want to be back in my country roots. I want to be back with my people. I want to be able to hang. I don't ever want to be.

[A]

Move at your speed.

[C]

Well, I want to be able to hang in the hood, hang in the country, and. Exactly. Move at my speed. And be powerful and healthy with my people. I don't ever want to be disconnected when they talking about it's lonely at the top. Not if y' all build together. It ain't lonely if we building with each other. What you mean? It's lonely if you cut everybody off and come compete with them.

[A]

It's funny. It's like, last thing, I'll get you outta here. But I was talking to somebody a while ago, and they were like, you know, Van, you got a lot of famous and successful friends. And I said, that's because I want my friends to be famous and successful. I don't want to make famous and successful friends. I want the people that are around me to be. When I say famous, I mean, even if you famous in your family, if you famous in your living room, you celebrate it. If you celebrate it in your hood. I want my people to be that. I don't want to go and join the group of people who are that. I want my people. Because I tell y' all something right now, and I keep saying it, y' all don't believe me. I know the funniest nigga in the world. He's from Baton Rouge. I know the best singer in the world. Exactly. I know the best actor that came from my. I know the best ballplayer. I know people that. In a different set of circumstances, with a different set of opportunities, with a different Runway, with the. With, like, if they wouldn't have got killed, they would have been something beautiful. I'm about to cry. So I know these people. So I just want somebody to invest into them, because there are more of them than we give ourselves credit for. And also, that's what I'll say I'm starting to get a little pissed off. I'm starting to get. I'm starting to get fed up with the whole thing, honestly. Because I'm starting to get, like. It's starting to piss me off a little bit, so. But, yeah, we got a lot to talk about, man. Can't wait for Malcolm X. Al Pacino's in that movie.

[C]

Al Pacino is in that movie. I still ain't seen it, so I pray it's good. I pray I did Malcolm X. Just.

[B]

But you know what? If you won't know what else other people are saying anyway, because you detach from that.

[C]

I mean, that was bizarre. I'm not joking. My homeboy who connected me with Ilyasa Shabazz. So it was literally the first job after the strike. It was chaos. It was in the winter in Jersey, and I wanted to be connected to his daughter so that I could get some sort of grounding and approval, you know what I'm saying? So he connected me chaotically to Ilya, Ilyasa Shabazz, because we were running around New York, and the next week, Michael Latt, my homeboy, was murdered.

[A]

Oh, man. Yeah, Michael.

[C]

And had to deal with that while filming the film that he connected me to. And so. And I. And to be honest, like I said, I still ain't seen it. That has such a deep. Such a deep grounding and connection to my journey as an actor. Malcolm X specifically. So I feel way more pressure, even though that's a much smaller movie, much smaller budget, I feel way more pressure about that in honoring Malcolm X than I do Quincy Jones. And you saw how much anxiety I expressed about Quincy Jones. I pray that I did it justice, and I pray that people enjoy it, but it was a rough journey.

[A]

You guys. That's Kendrick Sampson. The movie is Michael. It's out now. Go check it out. Check out everything that he's doing. Check out all the ways that he is building power and answering questions and providing solutions to people in his community and building solidarity to people that you might consider to be outside his community. But really, we're all one community.

[C]

Wait, really? But I really want what you said. Like, for real. For real. If you can, you cut that little clip of how you summarized how we should be taking care of each other right now and building like. I honestly believe that is the solution right now. The same shit that we found out in 2020 when all the systems had to be shut down. How to take care of each other, how to put libraries on the corner, on people's doors. You get what I'm saying? How to really take care of each other.

[A]

I'll tell you the response that I start to get when I start to talk to people about this, though. What we gonna talk about it off the thing.

[C]

But either way.

[A]

I'm telling you about the response, but

[C]

either way, that's the answer right now. We should build that right now while the system. While everybody's trying to figure it out and these systems shut down. Shut the systems down. Number one, don't let them operate and continue to abuse us and then build what we need right now.

[A]

Absolutely. Kendrick Sampson, thank you for joining us on Higher Learning. As a matter of fact, we about to get out of here as far as the show's concerned. Tell your thing caps off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathan Jr.

[B]

I'm Rachel and Lindsay.

[C]

Oh, and I'm Kendrick.

[B]

Sam, who we just had this beautiful conversation with.

[C]

City, you know, ace time. You feel me?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know you can follow me at Kendrick38. We out of here, man.