Michelle Appears on Call Her Daddy, Rachel’s Freedom, and Keith Edwards on Critiquing Crockett

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Michelle Appears on Call Her Daddy, Rachel’s Freedom, and Keith Edwards on Critiquing Crockett
Date: January 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay tackle a wide range of pressing topics in Black culture, politics, and entertainment. The discussion begins with a reflection on bringing guest Keith Edwards — political commentator and media personality — onto the show for a candid debate over Democratic primaries, coalition politics, and the Jasmine Crockett vs. James Talarico race in Texas. They also analyze the cultural implications of Michelle Obama's appearance on “Call Her Daddy,” discuss the recent Oscar nominations, and celebrate Rachel's personal milestone of finishing her divorce settlement. The episode closes with a detailed, nuanced, and sometimes heated conversation with Keith Edwards, diving into coalition politics, identity, and race in Democratic spaces.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Bringing Keith Edwards In: Roadblocks on the Left

[00:17–03:15]

• Rachel’s Perspective: She valued Keith coming on, seeing the conversation as “necessary” and a step toward understanding nuances that can’t be hashed out on social media:
  “I wanted to get to that understanding because that is not possible through social media. That’s possible in conversations that we have.” [01:27]

• Van’s Take: He notes the complexities and “roadblocks coalitionally...inside the left when it comes to talking about race and gender.” [01:06]

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2. Oscar Nominations and Black Achievement in Cinema

[03:15–14:54]

• Historic Moment: The film “Sinners” broke records with 16 Oscar nominations.

• Personal Connections: Both hosts express pride in previous podcast guest Autumn’s nomination for Best Cinematography.

• Critical Viewing: Van argues for “elevated griping, cultural griping that is authentic” — encouraging listeners to watch all contenders to participate meaningfully in debates about wins and snubs.
  "I'm calling for elevated griping...I want people to really dive into this art and have conversations that are based around stuff other than just the fact that it's Black." [09:26]

• Category Analysis: Detailed rundown of acting and technical categories, touching on perceived surprises, front-runners, and strategic Oscar “politics.”

• Advice for Oscar Season: Rachel commits for the first time to watching most nominated films to enable deeper discussion on Oscar results.

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3. Rachel’s “Freedom” & Financial Achievement

[15:10–19:37]

• Personal Milestone: Rachel discusses paying off the final installment of her divorce settlement and the liberation she feels, symbolized by an Instagram post (“kiss my ass” energy). “Yeah, it sucks to have lost so much money, but the fact that I was able to pay it off in a year, I'm proud of that. And that's an achievement, too.” [16:39]

• Van’s Congratulation: Acknowledges the psychological toll and the accomplishment.
  “That freedom is fantastic. And I know that beyond the money, this has been a really taxing psychological time...I'm glad you're free of it.” [18:43]

• Playful Brainstorming: Lighthearted ideas for Rachel’s future (writing a book with provocative titles discussed).

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4. Michelle Obama on “Call Her Daddy”: Legacy, Identity & Representation

[21:43–39:51]

• Mixed Reactions: Rachel immediately wonders about racial diversity among Call Her Daddy’s guests, while defending Michelle’s broad appeal and rationale for reaching a massive, younger female audience. “She was having a conversation...about style and expression and being a woman...Alex has a huge audience rooted in women. It makes sense.” [22:42]

• Desire for Depth: Both hosts wish Michelle would dive deeper into her Black, first-lady experience, noting how Alex (the host) may not be equipped for that interview nuance. “I wanted to hear more about her navigating the world as a black woman...but I felt like we weren't getting the full thing because of who she was sitting across from.” — Rachel [24:00]

• Polarization & Perception: Rachel and Van debate why Michelle Obama “cuts through” cultural divides and is seen as less polarizing than other Black female politicians, despite facing identity-based attacks.
  “She also presents herself in a way that feels non-threatening to them.” — Rachel [34:26]

  Van reflects: “What I see is a trust in her that she's saying what she actually means...there's an authority with her.” [37:15]

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5. Lakers Drama: LeBron, Family Legacies, & Identity

[40:07–50:17]

• Report of Tensions: ESPN details friction between Jeannie Buss and LeBron James — reportedly over gratitude and fit within the Lakers “family.”

• Van’s Analysis: He distinguishes the Lakers’ identity to the Buss family (deep legacy) vs. LeBron’s approach (the Lakers are another step in his personal legacy, not the defining element of his career):
  “The Lakers to LeBron, they just another hoe...LeBron becoming a Laker was more a part of an overall plan that LeBron James had for his life.” [42:54, 44:45]

• Rachel’s Pop-Culture Comparison: She likens the Buss family’s squabbles to “Real Housewives crossed with Succession.”

• Implications for Team Dynamics: Van suggests LeBron is the first Laker “bigger than the franchise” and that this has upended traditional team/fan relationships.

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6. Taylor Swift, Blake Lively, and Capri Sun: Celebrity Feuds & PR

[50:32–56:04]

• New Leaks: Texts between Taylor Swift and Blake Lively become public in ongoing legal disputes, revealing Swift’s sharp tongue (“I think this bitch knows something is coming because he’s gotten out his tiny violin.”) [51:05]

• Hosts’ Reactions: Van relishes this “side” of Taylor, suggesting a new musical “personality” (“Big T Swifty”) could be lucrative — “do a different track about every bitch, but name names.” [54:37]

• Cultural Take: Rachel observes this is how real friends talk, and notes the split response — “mean girls” label vs. “normal girlfriend banter.”

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🔥 Deep Dive: The Keith Edwards Conversation

[60:23–118:47]

Introduction & Stakes

• Nuance Over Flatness: Keith appreciates the opportunity to have a nuanced conversation, as opposed to the flattening, hostile environment online. [61:38]
• Clearing Misconceptions: Keith clarifies he is a “political commentator,” sharing news and his opinions, not a journalist; and that he backs Democrats broadly, not acting as an official surrogate. [64:04]

Critiquing the Crockett vs. Talarico Race

• Why Support Talarico: Keith argues Talarico has won in competitive races, can charm both Dem and Republican/Abbott voters, and describes Crockett as “polarizing” (which he defines as being a magnetic, partisan media figure that might spur GOP mobilization). [70:57, 72:17]

• Race, Identity, and Perception:

  • Rachel presses on the “polarizing” label, arguing that for Black women, the term is less about substance (as with Marjorie Taylor Greene) and more about presence and assertiveness.
    "She's polarizing because she, as a black woman, holds her ground. And that intimidates a lot of people." — Rachel [106:05]
  • Van discusses how Black women are often critiqued more harshly, and how the response within “the coalition” must grapple with legitimate feelings of protection and frustration.

• Good Faith vs. Bad Faith Criticism: Keith insists he treats all politicians equally and thinks some online backlash is performative, while others may sincerely react from lived experience. Van dissects the difference between assuming people’s feelings are in bad faith vs. grappling with the real, historic reasons for Black protectiveness on representation. [100:07]

Notable Quotes from the Debate

• Van, on online dynamics & Black women in politics:
  "What people see is a lack of care inside of a coalition that purports to care about black women." [95:32]

• Rachel, on the “polarizing” trope:
  "It's faulty to compare [Crockett & Greene] because...Jasmine's polarizing because she's a Black woman." [106:05]

• Keith, on campaign impact:
  "Everything that I've posted about is going to be used against her in a general election. And so she needs to have answers for it." [88:08]

• Van, drawing lines on coalition politics:
  "The most important thing to me in coalition building is conversation. I really appreciate you having this conversation." [116:32]

• Van, reframing the “bluest of the blue”:
  "Do you know who the bluest of the blue person is?...Black women. Don't get no blue-er." [117:22]

Resolution & Reflections

• Bridging Gaps: All parties acknowledge some progress — Keith concedes he hadn’t fully appreciated the layered sensitivity around “polarizing” for Black women, and Rachel underscores the importance of nuance and critique, while noting the need for sensitivity in coalition spaces.

• Commitment to Dialogue: Plans to continue public conversations, including live-streamed debate coverage.

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Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

• Rachel, on financial freedom & divorce: “Yeah, it sucks to have lost so much money, but...the fact that I was able to pay it off in a year, I’m proud of that.” [16:39]
• Van, on Michelle Obama's authority: “There’s an authority with her that...she’s one of the most impressive people I’ve ever seen.” [37:15]
• Van, on LeBron and Lakers legacy: “The Lakers to LeBron, they just another hoe...LeBron becoming a Laker was more a part of an overall plan.” [42:54]
• Taylor Swift’s leaked text: “I think this bitch knows something is coming because he's gotten out his tiny violin.” [51:05]
• Van, challenging coalition for Black women protection: “There’s an expectation that we won’t be protectionists around the greatest resource that we have in our community, which are black ladies. We’re going to be.” [111:54]
• Keith, on polarization: “I don't really like the word polarizing...it's just the partisan quality...that is challenging in Texas.” [108:05]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [00:17] Rachel explains the value of nuanced, in-person debate with Keith Edwards.
• [03:15] Oscar nominations breakdown, with emphasis on representation.
• [15:10] Rachel celebrates paying her divorce settlement, sharing her emotional journey.
• [21:43] Discussion of Michelle Obama on “Call Her Daddy,” race and generational outreach.
• [40:07] Lakers drama, LeBron’s legacy, and Buss family dynamics.
• [50:32] Taylor Swift’s leaked texts with Blake Lively, public/private persona, and pop culture feuds.
• [60:23] In-depth Keith Edwards interview, covering party divisions and debates about Black women’s electability and coalition politics.
• [95:32] Van lays out the “protectiveness” dynamic in Black political coalition.
• [116:32] Van frames the “bluest of the blue” (Black women) in party politics.

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Conclusion

This wide-ranging episode moves seamlessly between pop culture, sports, personal developments, and some of the most difficult and necessary debates surrounding coalition politics and identity on the American left. The extended, unvarnished conversation with Keith Edwards stands as a model for how to disagree, contextualize, and seek common ground — even as longstanding tensions around race, gender, and strategy bubble up. The show’s signature blend of humor, candor, and earnestness shines throughout.

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For listeners seeking a comprehensive and authentic take on media, politics, and representation in 2026, this episode delivers both heart and rigor — and leaves the door open for richer coalition dialogue in the year ahead.

Transcript

[Keith Edwards]

Foreign.

[Van Lathan]

Warriors. What is up? Power warriors on is Ivan Lazen Jr.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[Van Lathan]

Worlds collide today.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Worlds collide. Tell them why.

[Van Lathan]

Finally, Keith Edwards on the podcast.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Keith Edwards is on the podcast live in person, too. I'm in la. Yeah, you're in New York doing your thing.

[Van Lathan]

You and. You and Keith had a. How'd you feel the conversation went? You like him?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I thought it ended really well, like I thought. I think it's a necessary conversation that more people should have, and I appreciate him being bold enough to come do it and do it in person, especially after we called him out so many times, like he wasn't afraid to come. So I thought. I thought it went well. I thought it was a good conversation.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I didn't call him out for what he said. Cause, like, I don't have that much of a problem with it, but like, I called him out for not having the conversation with us and, you know, doing the whole thing, which he did.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Which I did.

[Van Lathan]

And I think I understand now more not just him, but kind of some of the roadblocks coalitionally inside, if that's even a word, inside the left when it comes to talking about race and gender and stuff.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And it's a problem that we have more than the other side has because they're not as diverse. So it's. I think that we are motivated by the same things. So it's an issue that we deal with that they don't have to deal with or care to deal with. I should say my biggest thing with him that I wanted to bring up and bring out, which I feel like we got to, was why I'm not saying I agree, which we've said multiple times. The things that he is being accused of or called online, but where people are coming from, like, what it's rooted in. I wanted to get to that understanding because that is not possible through social media. That's possible in conversations that we have. And I feel like we did a good job of that, all three of us. If you've been diagnosed with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, this is what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Imagine being a million miles away. Trimfaia Kucelkumab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy with Tremphya. Clearer skin is possible. In clinical Trials, at least 70% of patients saw at least 90% clearer skin at 16 weeks. Results may vary. Tremphya Is also indicated for adults with active psoriatic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu like symptoms or if you need a vaccine. Tap this ad to learn more about Tremphaya, including important safety information.

[Van Lathan]

So that's later on in the podcast. I thought, I thought Keith. I thought the conversation with Keith was great. We got to get into something right now. We got to talk about it. Sinners. Oscar nominations are out. Donnie.

[Keith Edwards]

Yeah, the nominations were released this morning and it looks like Sinners broke the Academy record for 16 total nominations. What are you guys first reactions to this? This list.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Which ones were the surprises?

[Van Lathan]

So I think that I was surprised to see Delroy Lindo.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Supporting a friend of the show. Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did that air? Did we air that?

[Van Lathan]

What? Delroy Lindo's interview.

[Keith Edwards]

Yeah, yeah, we did.

[Van Lathan]

We aired it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Delroy Lindo came on. Hey, we love Delroy Lindo. Delroy Lindo came on and, you know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Everybody is a bad day.

[Van Lathan]

He's a og. He was, you know, it took. We were taken aback.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Everybody has a bad day. A lot of respect.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That was a surprise. Was it known that Michael B. Jordan was gonna get that nomination?

[Van Lathan]

Mostly, yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, okay, okay, okay.

[Van Lathan]

And I have to say this because I don't know that I've ever been happier for someone to receive an Oscar nomination than I am for Autumn.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know, I saw that.

[Van Lathan]

Who came on our show.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Best cinematography.

[Van Lathan]

Best cinematography. This is a gigantic, huge moment from somebody who is dedicated to their craft, who loves the art of making things look amazing, loves the collaboration. She came on our podcast, we talked to her, we have fun with her. And now she is officially nominated for an academy Award. I think she's going to win.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She should win.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Did you see the other movies?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Which ones is she up against? One battle after another.

[Van Lathan]

One battle after another. She's up against.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, saw that.

[Van Lathan]

The other things. So, like, because when sinners is nominated 16 times, I'm just going to encourage everybody to see as many of the movies as you can. We do this every single year. If you care about the actual winners of the Oscars, if you care about that type of thing, if centers get 16 nominations and it comes back and it wins three or it wins four, if it gets shut out, it will be an issue.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, so I know, I thought about that. Are they setting? Obviously we're happy with the record breaking nomination, but it's like, are you Setting yourselves up for people to be hypercritical of, then the wins don't reflect that.

[Van Lathan]

To what I'm saying. To Sinner's Hive, to anybody who loves the movie and wants to see the movie win a bunch of awards. You do owe it to yourself in this situation, if you care about that type of thing, to see the movies that Sinners is up against so that then you can have an accurate, not just intellectual, but cultural take about who you think should have won. What now, if you watch all the movies and you think Michael B. Jordan should win for Best Actor, I think he should win for Best Actor because I fuck with him. But the reality is that the question is, did he have the best performance of the year? Oftentimes the best performance of the year, it doesn't win. Things happen. Certain actors, it's their time. Certain things kind of fuck up the voting. Sometimes. People can fuck this up in the next couple of weeks. In the next couple of weeks, people can go and do all their campaigning, and they. If they're wrong in February and the way that they go about this, they can fuck up their march. It happens all the time. But if you didn't see the movies, you're setting yourself up for disappointment based upon a metric that you don't really have a real take on, so you don't have to see them all. But, like, let's say you care specifically about a category. Even, like, if you're in a town or something like that, just see the other films so that if Sinners loses, you could be like, oh, I could see that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I will. For the first time ever.

[Van Lathan]

There you go.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Make a genuine effort to see as many of these as I can.

[Van Lathan]

What's the fuck I'm talking about in.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Order to have a robust conversation with you come Oscar time. Because I don't want to hear you say, I can't have this conversation. Nobody saw it. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna do that to you. I'm gonna be a team player, and I'm gonna get it done. Can I ask you where I should start, though? Like, give me a high one. I told you, I've seen Begonia. I've seen one battle after another. I've seen Sinners. And this could be for everybody else, too. Like, where? Cause, like, as beautifully shot as Train Dreams looked. It looked. Looks. It looks incredibly slow. And I don't want to start slow.

[Van Lathan]

You don't want to start with the slow movie. Okay, let's talk about these movies real quick. Let's just look at best picture. Bonia F1, Frankenstein, Hamnet, Marty Supreme. One Battle After Another, The Secret Agent, Sinners and Train Dreams. Now, outside of those movies, Ham. Oh, Hamid's right there. Outside of those movies, there's a. A film that my friend Cord really likes. He won an Oscar one time. Core likes this movie called Blue Moon.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And that movie is with Ethan Hawke. I just watched that. It seems great.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Isn't it just in one place, though? Isn't it, like.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, but like. But, you know, sometimes these movies are people talking in rooms.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Movies, again, slow. I need movement as. As not an avid watcher. You got to understand, like, I'm not. As.

[Van Lathan]

Movies.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not. Is it a cinephile? I'm not that. So I need. You have to give it to me like a child. The only thing I will say I'm curious about Blue Moon is when I was looking at it, I was unaware of this story. And I obviously know. And so, like, as a person who.

[Van Lathan]

Likes theater, you know, the playwrights and.

[Rachel Lindsay]

All of that stuff, yeah, I was like, oh, wow. I never knew of the guy who didn't, you know, and how he, you know, went on and partnered with somebody else and made history. So I think the background is interesting.

[Van Lathan]

I'm calling for something here. I'm calling for elevated griping, cultural griping that is authentic. If you are going to gripe, if you're setting yourself up for the gripe here, then I want people to be able to really dive into this art and have conversations that are based around stuff other than just the fact that it's black. So it's impossible for the movie to win as much. I'm not asking for you. I'm saying that like, okay, so if you care about Ryan and best Director, you only got five to see Hamnet, Mario Supreme. One battle after another. Sentimental value and centers legitimately there. The only one that would be the type of movie that you're talking about is kind of like sentimental value. Everything else is. Hamnet is going to get you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But every Marty C. Reel's fast. Oh, you're saying that's like a little slower.

[Van Lathan]

That's gonna be a little slower that you could like. You know what I mean? Now, actor once again, Blue Moon is in there. So it's Chalamet, DiCaprio, Hawk, Michael B. Jordan, and Wagner Mora and the Secret Agent. He made history. Wagner Mora did. He's the first Brazilian to be nominated for best actor for the Secret Agent Actors. You can skip. It's a Ballad of Whites Jesse Buckley, Rose Byrne, Kate Hudson, Emma Stone. Renate.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's Renata.

[Van Lathan]

Renata. Renata. These are. This one right here. Jessie Buckley's gonna win. She destroyed me. I think Jessie Buckley's gonna win. Then we come to another very interesting category here. Best Supporting Actor.

[Rachel Lindsay]

How is Benicio del Toro in it?

[Van Lathan]

What do you mean?

[Rachel Lindsay]

How?

[Van Lathan]

He was in.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I know what he was in. I've seen the movie. I'm just thinking of the performance. And not that it wasn't good. It just. I. It wasn't long. It wasn't big.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, Jesus. Some people say. Some people say that this was the best part of that movie.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I loved his because I loved his character for sure, but it was just like a smaller role is my point of what I'm saying.

[Van Lathan]

So in this category, it's very interesting.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because Frankenstein, not the actor. Sorry, I'm talking.

[Van Lathan]

When I left, one battle after another, I thought Sean Penn had this locked up. Same just because of the narrative behind the film and all of that. Benicio Del Toro's character and his performance got cooler to people as time went on. When I saw Delroy Lindo in Sinners, I go, there's a nomination. However, it just seemed like with all of the movies that were coming out, that maybe that performance wouldn't weigh heavily on people's minds long enough for him to be nominated. He was. I think it's apartment but then you have still and Skarsgrd down here in Sentimental Value, and that's an interesting story. It could be that one battle after another, Sean Penn and Benicio Del Toro kind of cancel each other out. And if somebody's gonna sneak in there, it might be still in Skarsgard.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He won the Globes, right? He won it for the gloves. Can I ask you a question? How is Frankenstein not Best Actor? Like, doesn't he play Frankenstein? Is he not the main actor in the movie?

[Van Lathan]

So Frankenstein, he plays the monster.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I know the monster.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know who Frankenstein is, but I just would think. I'm just surprised it's the best supporting actor. I haven't seen the movie. I'm asking you.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, no, no, no, no. It's a. Yeah, no, yeah, it's a. I think it's after. But no, that's something that's really in a lot of different roles throughout the history of film. When it comes to the Oscars, people throw that around, like, where should you be? I could see what you're saying, but I think I would have put him in supporting as well.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

I would have Put him in supporting as well. And then, you know, Teyana Taylor, one battle after another. Wumi Masaku and Sinners. I think that Amy Madigan and Weapons might have an inside track there. Okay. I really do. But that's one where one of those sisters is viable to me. One of those sisters is really viable to me. Teona Taylor has the momentum, so. And then you have adapted screenplay. I don't know how much you guys are going to care about that one. Original screenplay, though, is where I think Ryan Coogler has his best shot.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think so too.

[Van Lathan]

I think the Blue Moon script is fucking great, right? It was just an accident. March supreme sentimental value. I think Ryan's best shot is in screenplay. And I would really, really be surprised if Autumn didn't win. Like, if Autumn didn't win for best cinematography, I would be surprised. I would really be surprised if she didn't win. So. But yeah, there you have it. But see, in the categories that you care about, just cause these movies are also very good. Try to see as many of the movies as you can so you know, you can have an informed opinion about who you actually think was the best. And you might come away thinking in every single category you watch all the movies that, you know, Sinners was the best achievement because it's a fucking fantastic cinematic achievement. But there are films that were made this year that in any given category, any given performance, you shouldn't be mad if Sinners, if they beat Sinners, like, it's just a reality, right? Hamnet's the best movie I saw all year.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

That's a fact. Sinners, to me is the best, is the highest achievement. But Hamnet is the best movie I saw all year. Okay, let's get on. What do you want to go to, Rachel? What do you want to do? Because what do you want to do next?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let's do. Oh, let's do Lakers.

[Van Lathan]

Talk about. I know. We got to talk about the top of the show. No, we got to do this at the top of the show.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What?

[Van Lathan]

What's going on on Instagram?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, nothing. Nothing's going on on Instagram. I had a big life achievement accomplished this weekend, even though I tried it. Let me just tell you how this worked for me. So I had said on this podcast that. That I was about to do my last payment in my divorce settlement, and I was actually. I've been saving, saving, saving. And I was waiting on a couple of payments to come in from some work I had done last year that didn't come in timely. So I asked in good faith if I could give, like, 60% or 70% and then just, like, get it, like an extension with interest, by the way.

[Keith Edwards]

Oh, wow.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Of. Well, legally you have to. Of like 60 days in good faith, but it would come in much sooner than that. Right. But I'm going to give you, mind you, this is. I've already done one payment already. And then while we were working out the settlement, there was more payments. So it's not like you don't have anything. So I was like, here, I'm going to give you, like, 70% of this and then wait for these other things to trickle in. Can we agree to that? What do you think the answer was?

[Van Lathan]

No.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, of course not. No. No. And that was at, like, on a Thursday night. And then Friday morning payment came in, and I said, you know what? Look at God. And so I was able to send it off, pay it. And then I said, I'm gonna post about it because I'm really proud of this moment. Like, yeah, it sucks to have lost so much money, but the fact that I was able to pay it off in a year, I'm proud of that. And that's an achievement, too. So I posted myself on a beach. I was in Miami this weekend. From the back. Looking forward. Kiss my ass. It was like a kiss my ass situation. Yeah, it was like a kiss my ass, I'm looking forward Karma song playing in the background and letting people know. Well, I mean, she writes. She writes very well about her past relationship. So I thought that lyrically it fit. And. And I believe that. I believe in that. What goes around comes around and. Yeah, and letting people know I'm moving forward and I'm writing the next chapter.

[Van Lathan]

Thought it was a good post.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you.

[Van Lathan]

You're on his home turf, right? You know, you're on his home turf. You celebrating? It really got the streets going. Like, even women were hitting me up, like, Jesus Christ, Rachel's in great shape and all of that stuff.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That was part of it too. Like, I feel I don't dress like, you know, I'm normally in, like, baggier clothes and stuff. So, yeah, I look good. I feel good.

[Van Lathan]

You look good. You feel good. And now you got extra bread. You. You got extra bread. Cause, you know, one of your kids graduated college, basically, you know what I mean? They're out of the house. So you got extra bread now. I think everyone is happy for you. What you gonna buy is. Is this gonna be a Ferrari? Rachel?

[Rachel Lindsay]

We're saving back up. You know what I Mean, like, I was able to get through it. I'm surviving, but I gotta be smart in how I move forward. But no, no, no. I'm not gonna just like, trick off or anything like that.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. This about to buy a chain. Okay. Congratulations.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you.

[Van Lathan]

That freedom is fantastic. And I know that beyond the money, this has been a really taxing psychological time. It's been tough and all with all of this stuff. I'm glad you're free of it. I'm glad.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you. Thank you. And I feel like, yeah, I could put it on so now I can like, really focus on. Cause I don't really. Like, we make jokes here and there, but I ain't really been talking.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, so now you ready to.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, we are motivated for what?

[Van Lathan]

You don't want to end up back. Look, remember the, like, you know, it's like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, that's why you get a publisher.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, you get. Oh, you going the book route?

[Keith Edwards]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, well, Chrisean Troutman, Legacy Lit.

[Keith Edwards]

Oh, okay.

[Van Lathan]

Everyone gets go to Chrisean. Oh, yeah. Chrisean Trotman, Legacy Lit. Legacy Lit. Got all your needs. You put the book. What's the name of the book? Fuck Em, girl. Fuck Em.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It should be right close, though.

[Van Lathan]

You know, you can have a fire title. Oh, you know what a fire title is for the book. I'm gonna be real with you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I just don't want you to say what my working title is, but go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

A fire title that's gonna fly off the shelves. There's no more white boys. That's a fire title. Like, a fire title that, like, that's gonna fly off the shelves. You gonna get on Outkick, and you gonna get in Ebony. You gonna get on Fox News, and you gonna get in the root, like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And then can you imagine, like, the next guy I step out with is white?

[Van Lathan]

Well, you can't do that. Okay. If the name of the book. If the title of the book is no More White Boys, How a Greedy Colonizer Brought Me Home. That's the subtitle.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Brought Me Home is crazy.

[Van Lathan]

The problem I have as we move on to Michelle Obama and call her daddy, is that I'm an idea man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You are. You definitely are.

[Van Lathan]

And that's fire. So if Rachel not gonna write that book, and she's probably not some sister out there, that title, that title right there, that's 50,000 copies alone. This is the title. You walking through the book. No more Whites.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I told you the title. The working title.

[Van Lathan]

Now you have it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, I'll tell you later.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, you have it.

[Keith Edwards]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

All right. We're very happy for you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you.

[Van Lathan]

It's fantastic. Nobody else send me that post. I'm gonna put the drive on y'. All. Okay. You thirsty ass niggas.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Anybody I would like? Is there anybody I would like?

[Van Lathan]

Nah, Hell nah. Like one I was on a group chat with. He in jail.

[Keith Edwards]

What?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, he's incarcerated.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And he's in a group chat.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, you've met him. All right, Donnie. All right. Yeah.

[Keith Edwards]

Let's talk about what you just teased. Michelle Obama was on Caller Daddy this week, sat down with Alex and talked about a bunch of different topics, including her hope for the new generation. This is what the former first lady had to say.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Create a new future that is actually inclusive, equal and respectful of each other. Because right now it does not feel like we are close to that.

[Van Lathan]

And don't you get a sense that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

People are not content in that?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, Right. So let's.

[Keith Edwards]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You know, I think more people are starting to be outspoken about it and.

[Van Lathan]

Realizing, is this what we. You know, And a lot of people.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are like, I didn't sign up for this. That is us speaking. That is us. You know, that's our real hearts kind of coming to the fold. I'd like to think.

[Van Lathan]

When you saw Michelle was going on Call Her Daddy, what did you think? What was your knee jerk to it? I'm asking. A lot of people had a response to it that I wasn't expecting.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I immediately looked up how many, like, what black people have been on Call Her Daddy. I don't know why, but that was like, my thought. I was like, does she have a lot of diversity on the podcast? I honestly don't know because I don't listen. I don't follow. That was my reaction. But Michelle Obama is promoting a book and she has a podcast. We know she's in the same category as us. Make sure you guys take this time. Link will be in our notes. Vote for us. NAACP awards. Michelle Obama is one of the people we're up against. She. Why would you not go on one of the biggest podcasts out there? It just makes sense to me. So I'm not one of those people who was bothered by that. It made me think of, oh, who else goes on this podcast that looks like me? But that was really it. She was having a conversation. I mean, her book is about style and expression and being a woman and, you know, the next generation being better than the generation that she's. That she came from and building a world for her daughters and all of that. Alex has a huge audience. That's rooted in women. It makes sense. It makes sense. I didn't have strong opinions about this.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I thought a lot of people did. I don't know why. What. What do you want to hear from Michelle Obama?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, I listen to half this podcast. So if the other half of it. I want to be honest, if the other half of it is two hours covers this, then my bad. But the part that I listened to of this podcast was Michelle Obama talking about herself, her experience, not just as a mother, not just as the wife of Barack Obama, but as the first lady. What that was like, how people viewed her, that she wasn't new to, you know, like, her accomplishments. If you read her first book of everything she accomplished before and how she had to take a back seat, you know, because her husband was running for the presidency. I want to hear that from a black. As a black woman. And the conversation that I listened to the first hour was. Was more about being a woman. And I feel like the complexity that she had to face was unlike any other first lady, because she was the first black first lady. And I wanted to hear more about her navigating the world as a black woman. She has done that in her other book. But when you are talking about how you have to be in the world as a mother, it's. As a black mother, it's a black experience. And I felt like she couldn't. She. She could have gone there with Alex. I don't know what Alex's response would have been like, but I felt like we weren't getting the full thing because of who she was sitting across from, because of the questions that Alex was asking her. Alex was asking her questions generally about being a woman in this world, but she's not. The reason she's so people also have her on a pedestal is because she's the first in what she was doing as a black woman.

[Van Lathan]

I wanted more of that as a black lady. I think it would've been a little irresponsible of her to do that with Alex. Cause all it's gonna be is, Alex, you're not gonna have the conversation for real. Like, I think the conversation has to be broader because, I mean, what Alex gonna say?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I would. I probably would. I mean, I can't say what I would have done, but it's like, I mean, okay, in no way am I on the same level. I'm just saying I had to talk about being a first black to white people in white space. And I talked about that experience as A black woman. So she could have done it. And I think it would have made Alex maybe feel like Alex would have to be like, I don't know what that is like, but I admire you. Or I don't know what that's like. I'm not equipped to have. She can't say that. But I'm not equipped to have that conversation.

[Van Lathan]

But see. But see, you're getting to the thing of it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I understand it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You ask me what I wish I would have wished.

[Van Lathan]

Of course I get it. But to me, it's so many black platforms where you can go on those platforms and talk about to black people who can have those conversations in depth and sincerely, that if you go on Call Her Daddy. Yeah. Have the conversation on Call Her Daddy that's brought her about. But you gonna get into these conversations with Alex, and Alex is gonna do, I whipped my hair back. Check my tail.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You. I told Matt Rogers how much you love that moment. You're not singing the song right? It's not I whip my hair back and forth. What is it? It's what is it? Now you got me messed up, y'. All. Do y' all know that song? Yo, wait, hold on, hold on. I'm going to tell you the story.

[Keith Edwards]

They did it.

[Van Lathan]

That's that. That's funny.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's Lizzo. It's I do my hair toss, check my nails.

[Keith Edwards]

That's what it is.

[Van Lathan]

As soon as Matt started doing it, Bowen did it, too. That's the type of shit that's funny to me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It was funny.

[Van Lathan]

That shit is funny to me. So, yeah, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about it like that, though. I hadn't thought about sort of Michelle Obama talking about her being first lady and some of the specific attacks on her. Once again, people saying that she was a dude and all of those things are coded as direct criticisms and misogyny, war against black ladies.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And she talks about it, but does not say what you just said. And I do think that she should go. It is a book about women as well. When it gets personal, it's about her. So that's a different conversation. But I understand that all women need to hear this. I don't think for me, at 40, I'm a little past it, but I understand how that audience. That's probably like, high school, going into college. Like, this is a new mindset that Michelle Obama's saying. We shouldn't be shy about. We should step into this. This is who we are. This is a healthier thing than what I Had to go through. I mean, it makes sense. That's why it didn't bother me. But I wish I could have done it.

[Van Lathan]

The interview was very widely covered, but when I listened to the interview, it was pretty standard. It's very. It's impossible for Michelle Obama to be unimpressive. I do wonder, though, what is it about Michelle that cuts through so deeply? Is it because we emotionally connect her to this just pioneering achievement in half blackness when Obama became the president?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm sorry.

[Van Lathan]

Apologize. This is a joke, guys. This pioneering achievement in blackness and. Or is it just because just. She's just more impressive than everybody else? She's just simply better. Like, if we. We're talking about Keith. We're talking with Keith later about the criticism of Jasmine Crockett, Jackson Crockett, black lady. We talked about all of the slings and arrows that Kamala Harris has faced. Michelle Obama has faced all of those things, but she remains somebody that I just do not think that people are hung up in identity with the same way. I think there's a voter for Michelle Obama that there wasn't for Kamala Harris. I think there's a voter for Michelle Obama that there might not be for Jasmine Crock. And I think there's a lover of her in a different way. I think she's just more famous and more effective as a communicator than. I'm not comparing all of these people, I'm saying. But when we talk about the specific, like with misogyny, war, and how it limits people's ascension, does it limit Michelle Obama's ascension in that same way? This is very clunky and odd, but she seems to be somebody who has. When she talks about the limits of. When she talks about even the world not being ready or the United States not being ready for a woman president, sometimes when she talks, I think, you know, you're right, but you're not talking about yourself because you could do it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Do you ever think. Did when people threw her name out there that she should run? Did you ever take that seriously? That she actually would?

[Van Lathan]

No, I actually thought that it was. It was. I thought it was interesting that they did that. It reminded me of how people treated my grandmother.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What do you mean?

[Van Lathan]

My grandmother wouldn't volunteer to cook. She never. People would be like, we gonna come over here Sunday and we gonna have some gumbo. And she would be like, who gonna make the gumbo?

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what I'm talking about.

[Van Lathan]

And the whole house would be like, well, we expected you was gonna make it this might go for my mama too. Like, my mom would be like, I never volunteered to cook. I got my own plans for Sunday. Like, we're gonna come over here, we fry some fish, we gonna catch some fish, come back here, cut the piece. Like, I don't know if y' all know, but during that time, that's when I like to take my walk. So when I saw that they were throwing her name in there when she has, you know, never said that she wanted to do that. It just reminded that sometimes we ask them ladies, them black ladies, that we. Sometimes we ask them to cook when Dane never said they was gonna do it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The reason I ask you that is because I think that the reason I said, did you actually think she would? And you said, no. And I'm like, I agree. I think the reason that it was even thrown out and people entertained it is because there was a romanticizing thing going on there when it came to her. And they knew that she actually wasn't running. So it was just something that they could say, but they knew it was never gonna be realized. I also think it makes me think of our conversation with Keith with, she's insanely accomplished, right? Like brilliant. And if you have not read her first book, please do. You'll get not even halfway through it and you're like, it. I mean, it's just incredible who she is and what she's accomplished. And then with all that still. And she talks about this actually in the podcast, with all that she had done, it was, she's the first lady and. And she never felt like she had to really try to remind people of that. She accepted that role. And then it's that kind of grace and the way that she walks through things and the they go low, we go high. When you think about the conversation that we have with Keith and that word polarizing, I think that also plays into it. Michelle Obama is not polarizing. I'm not saying she can't be, but she moves through. And this is something that comes with the pressure of being a black woman at times of you always are very conscious of the stereotypes that exist out there with you. And Michelle Obama makes conscious moves and moves with grace. I think that that's also plays into it. In addition to how amazing that she is on paper, she also presents herself in a way that feels non threatening to them.

[Van Lathan]

Feels non threatening to who?

[Rachel Lindsay]

White people.

[Van Lathan]

You think Michelle Obama's non threatening to white people?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think that it's when you play and like not play, that's not the word. But I think when you are a certain way, they're like, that's how you should be. You know, she. I think if we had. We asked him a question about black women running. If we had said Michelle Obama, I think Keith would have been like, yep, she could do it. Because there's a way she's polarizing in herself as being a black woman. We talk about that, too. The identity is there, but her actions are not polarizing. I just. I really don't think so. When they go low, we go high. I wouldn't say that shit. Yeah, but I commend her for. I commend her for. And it's not shit. I don't say it like, I don't dismiss it. I'm just saying that was a very, like, calm. The sentiment is there, but the way that she said it was. It was great. That's not how Jasmine Crockey would probably say it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, you know what? I think I understand what you're saying. And when I say I think I understand, I mean, when you said that, I really had to think about it for a second. When you say that, I think about times that she's kind of held back, been on the ire of the right. You know, when she talked about. She said, I wake up in the morning. So, okay, Michelle Obama asked. First lady asked. First lady said, I wake up every morning in a house built by slaves. Right. And she was criticized for that. I mean, she would do other stuff that was just, like, beyond criticism, and she would get criticized. Like when Michelle Obama was trying to institute fitness standards and nutritional standards and all of that stuff. People like, well, we don't want a nanny state if we want to drink fucking 14 gallons of Mountain Dew. Michelle Obama should not be able to tell us that we can't do that. Like, fast forward 15 years, like, RFK Jr. Is entrusted to go in and just root out every single thing that he thinks he thinks with no scientific backing for a lot of it is unhealthy. It's, you know, that kind of speaks to just authority and who you're supposed to listen to when it's time for you to be healthy or make decisions about yourself. I say all that to say, though, that I think that there's an authenticity with her, of course, because she hasn't really been afraid to be criticized, and she's been in tough positions before, and she kind of stands on it. Like, whenever I'm listening to Michelle Obama and Barack Obama to a lesser degree, but whenever I listen to Michelle Obama, I think, what I see is a trust in her that she's saying what she actually means.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, of course.

[Van Lathan]

That she's. That there's an energetic truth that cuts through the politics, and she hasn't been a politician in that way. So maybe there's a different standard. Maybe there's a different threshold. Maybe she doesn't have to say things that are going to be, like, palatable to people because she doesn't have to think about whether or not they're going to vote for her and all of that stuff. She is essentially a private citizen. So that's the way she should. She should be. But I don't know. Whenever she talks, there's an authority with her that it's. She. That's. She's one of the most impressive people I've ever seen. I think that cuts through a lot. So I guess what you're saying. I guess I agree with that. I just never thought about the fact. Whenever I've heard negative things about her, it's always been from white people, but.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It'S been identity stuff. I feel like more than, like, even her saying, I wake up and I live in a house built by slaves. That's tied to identity, and people didn't know. They didn't like it.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, so that's interesting. So you say that you're saying that white people are able to separate Michelle Obama's who she is away from what she says.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I don't think.

[Van Lathan]

Why, then? Why? I guess why?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I just. I think. No, I was.

[Keith Edwards]

Why?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think because the way she carries herself, it's like. I think they're like, I can accept that. That's not as threatening. That doesn't make me uncomfortable. And I know it because I've. I've been through. I've been through that. I've been. It's why they picked me as the bachelorette. They looked at me on paper. They didn't know a thing about me. They looked at me on paper and they were like. I was told, we can understand why she would be the first. And it wasn't until a year later that I really started to be, you know, after I was out of contract. Speak my mind. And then it was like, oh, no, we don't. I mean, literally, people would be like, we don't like that. Oh, she's got an attitude. Oh, she talks too much. Oh, she's loud. Oh, she's. She's got. She's aggressive. A bitch. She's. Yeah. So I as. And I'm not saying I think that as a black Woman sometimes. And as a public figure like that, there are times you have to hold back. I don't think that she always does that by any means, but she's so good in the way that she says things that you can't really go against it because of how she's presenting it to you, and that's part of the art and why she's so amazing and how she does things.

[Van Lathan]

Fascinating lady. Fascinating lady. Another reason why she went on call her daddy, guys is because, like, they put the clip out and it got like 1 million views, like, within, like, whatever. It's like a big deal. It's a huge platform and all of that stuff. Interesting. A little sports, Donnie.

[Keith Edwards]

Yeah. Your team, the Lakers. There was a recent report that came out from ESPN that indicated that there's some tension between Jeannie Buss and LeBron James. According to the report, sources say that Buss had grown frustrated with LeBron's influence and ego, and that that strain reportedly deepened after the Russell Westbrook trade didn't work out exactly as everyone had planned, and after Buss reportedly felt that LeBron wasn't appreciative enough after the Lakers drafted his son Bronnie in 2024. Laker fan Ben Lathan, what are your thoughts on this report?

[Van Lathan]

So I. I'm a. I'm a write on this. I'm on the sub stack.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Hottest. Hottest.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You got a title for it already?

[Van Lathan]

Oh, wait a minute. Am I seeing jam session right now up in. Are they doing jam session? I think I see Juliet. She's got all of these little. All of these little windows up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They said I. I use jam session. Who?

[Van Lathan]

I see Juliet. Juliet.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She does other stuff.

[Van Lathan]

Bachelor party. Oh, I see. I see them doing a pile. Look at that. I can see them. Yeah. It's over. It's time. It's. It's over. It's time. It's time to move on. So move on. And that's okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Do you. Who, who do I. I love this kind of stuff, right? Because I'm. I'm not a big Lakers fan, but this is like some Real Housewife stuff. You know, You've got this, this Real Housewives times succession, right? You got this family.

[Keith Edwards]

The.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The. The patriarch is gone or steps down, like, in succession. You got the infighting within the family. You got the one who took over, who's like, I'm put in charge to make the decisions. You're fired. You're fired, you're fired. I love watching this from the outside. I love the drama of it all. But how much of it? And now LeBron James got dragged in. And Jeannie's obviously said, you know, she hates that he was dragged into their family drama because they sold the team. So all this stuff is kind of coming out. But how much of it is true? Because I saw that Rich Paul on his show on the ringer.

[Van Lathan]

Game over. That's a ringer podcast. Would you come on?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I said his show on the ringer with Max Kellerman.

[Van Lathan]

I say game. Game over.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Game over. I knew you'd finished my sentence for me.

[Van Lathan]

Hottest anti Lakers podcast that we got going right now. Is it number one with a bullet.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is it? Well, he said he didn't care about all of it, but did say where there's smoke, there's fire.

[Van Lathan]

All right, man. Okay, look, now talk to us. So, number one, there's a difference between legacy and identity. There is. There's a difference between legacy and identity.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I like this. Cause you're giving us the sub stack. I like this.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Jeannie Buss and the Buss family, the Lakers are their identity. LeBron James, the Lakers are a part of his legacy. The Lakers to LeBron, they just another hoe. They are. LeBron has, in my opinion, he's got his family who he really cares about. He's got causes in the community he really cares about. He's got basketball that he really cares about. Basketball is a part of LeBron's identity. To me, the team that he plays for is not that big a deal. It's not. It's a big a deal from. It's a big deal from the business standpoint. Right? But it's not that big of a deal. The team, they kind of like hoes. Like, you can bring them in. You know, you use them for whatever. You swap them out. You do whatever. Because the main thing in town is LeBron James is him as a basketball entity. That's the most important thing. It's not Cleveland, it's not Miami. It's not Los Angeles. It's LeBron.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So do you think that some of the infighting, which maybe is true, maybe it's not, is that they, as the Buss family, since this is their identity, they want LeBron James to accept this as more of an identity than as a legacy, as a pit stop on the way to, you know, whatever else he's trying to build in his legacy? Did they expect him for this to be his identity? This is where it ends. Which is maybe why they drafted Bronny, because that would keep him here longer. And then this would be where he ends his legacy. And that's not necessarily what's happening.

[Van Lathan]

Most players, no matter how accomplished they are in NBA history, being a Laker becomes their identity. It don't matter if you are a Laker. Talking about, shout out to Shannon Brown, man, Shannon Brown was a Laker. That wasn't even like a super important Laker. I love Shannon Brown. It's not Shannon Brown, Monica. I don't want to. You know, he's Shannon Brown and she's Monica. It's the union. Some other people, it's the union. But my point is, if you are a Laker and you are a role player, like Shannon Brown was a fantastic player, terms of great athlete gave us a lot of memories. But if you're a Laker, you can have Monica, right? Like, you can have Monica. Like, you can. I'm not saying that the other NBA guys are, like, not getting, but I'm saying this, like, being a Laker, that means something that normally becomes a player's identity. It becomes the team for a player that can contribute, that you are remembered for. At least that's the way it used to be. That's never been the case with LeBron James. Like, he's treated the organization as if it was any other organization. And I think they're actually surprised by that. I think that LeBron becoming a Laker was more a part of. Of an overall plan that LeBron James had for his life. Which means, you know, LeBron comes to LA, he's in LA, Spring Hill is popping, he's around the town. It's a part. It's a good story for him to end his career on. But LeBron James, to me, has been the first Laker that has kind of been bigger than the franchise. Kobe, historic Laker, really, really put the history of being that above that. Shaq, you're going to remember Shaq for all the things that he's done in his career. You remember him as a Laker. Krem Abdul Jabbar was a dominating player before he got to la. You're going to remember Kareem as a Laker. Magic Johnson is one of the most famous men on the planet. But even Magic puts the brand of the Lakers, like, either on par or more than his personal brand. He is a part of that. Magic looks and says, you know, Kobe Bryant, greatest Laker of all time. He would say that because he uses that moniker as something very, very important in a way to pay homage to Kobe. LeBron was the first one that was kind of like, ah, right like, yeah, it's important. It's a team that I play for. But it's like, eh. Right. It's like that's kind of the deal, his son being a Laker. That's not that important to him. Like, it's. It's like the most important thing is that his son is in the NBA.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Correct.

[Van Lathan]

Like, he's not. His son is in the NBA. It's like another. It's another team, another thing, another person that adds another entity that adds to the legacy of LeBron James. I'm not saying this in a way to be hypercritical of LeBron James. I'm just saying that LeBron James does now and always has had a plan, and that plan is to be a basketball player and use his excellence on the basketball court to influence all of these other things. I think there might have been an expectation that he would conduct himself differently, have a different type of reverence for or whatever when he became a Laker. And that's kind of not the thing. I'm not saying that other guys haven't exuded their control over the organization. Magic got a coach fire, obviously. Kobe kind of held the team at gunpoint a little bit to kind of get more people around him, or else he said he was going to get trained. I'm not saying none of that's happened, but I'm saying, like, with LeBron, sometimes it feels like it doesn't really matter to him. It's not that big of a deal. And they were probably taken aback by that. And remember, for them, it's their entire identity.

[Rachel Lindsay]

True.

[Van Lathan]

Being a member of the Buss family, that is all about this organization, the history of this organization, what their father built and all of that. And they probably expected him to be a little bit more appreciative of some of that stuff. And he was probably like, I'm not that. I'm LeBron James and there's nothing that. No team that I can play for that's bigger than me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So this is his last year there.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know if it's his last year. There's. I know one thing that is going to be hard to win games with when your best three guys, like, can't defend. Okay. I know we need Austin Reaves back, and I know that we should maybe appreciate Austin Reaves. Okay. I know that, like, if. If the Lakers are at a crossroads right now to where the decision. The decision is whether or not we're going to build a team. But you know, around Luka, which. Luca just move Your feet. Stop talking to the ref. Move your feet. Luca, your new is not a file. Just play through it. Run down the court and guard somebody. Luka, every time you get mad at a call, you didn't feel like you just put it into. Just guard someone. Pinch somebody, Blow on someone, Untie somebody's shoes. Luca, get a tech. Untie somebody's shoes. Kick them. Like, yell at them, you know, even go, yeah. When they shoot.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Donnie.

[Keith Edwards]

My clock says 1:59. We're almost at the two hour mark.

[Van Lathan]

Shut up, Donnie.

[Keith Edwards]

Talk about Taylor Swift.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, man.

[Keith Edwards]

Text messages between her and Blake Lively have just gotten public after the illegal dispute between Lively and Justin Baldani has reached a new stage in the courts. In the text messages, it looks like Taylor Swift called the director a. In a 2024 exchange with lively in full, she says, I think this knows something is coming because he's gotten out his tiny violin. Thoughts on the latest updates from the drama.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm gonna be honest with you. I thought this was over.

[Van Lathan]

Hell, no.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I. I thought there was so much back and forth counter suits. Something's been dismissed. This is.

[Keith Edwards]

I.

[Rachel Lindsay]

When I saw this, I was like, we're still here. They got trial in May. Now. Now I know. I had no idea. You laugh. What do you think about this? People are split. People are split.

[Keith Edwards]

I was.

[Van Lathan]

I was kind of getting sick of Taylor Swift. I'm back on the bandwagon now.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She had. You a bitch.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Hell yeah, man. Like, this is the shit I like, okay? Like, this has nothing to do with Blake Lively or Justin Baldoni. I don't know how in the world this got to be this big of a deal. See, you would have thought this movie was fucking Casablanca for this to be worth it for this movie. Like, I could see if they had made the Godfather, and everybody was like, no, I made the Godfather, right? If they had made Mo Better Blues. If this was Love Jones and they were like, yo, I actually. I had all the original ideas for Love Jones. I had all the original ideas for the Empire. Y' all fighting like this over this movie. What is this about? I don't. I. To me, there's been so much made over this. Would you. Would like. Would you. Would you stab somebody over a Capri Sun?

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what you think the movie is? A Capri Sun.

[Van Lathan]

It's a Capri Sun. This is a Capri sun movie. It's like, look, this is the last Capri Sun. If you not. If you not thirsty, like, if you in the desert, you would stab Somebody over a Capri Sun.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What if this was. Because this is kind of like Justin's thing, right? Okay, so would I stab somebody over a Capri Sun? No. But what if this is the last. Not only is it the last Capri sun, it's the only drink I'm ever gonna be able to have again. Because that's kind of where he's coming from. And so.

[Van Lathan]

That's a great point.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I fuck with Capri Suns.

[Van Lathan]

I like them too. I think they're underrated. I think we don't drink them anymore. Honestly. I think. I think honestly, what Capri Suns should do is like, have a line of like hard Capri Suns to where there's a little bit of vodka in them motherfuckers. But I get what you're saying. It's a big deal for him. This is his break. He's becoming something here. And he's in a power struggle and all of this stuff, but it's got so messy. And no one had the foresight to see this is going to hurt us more than it would help us. And this movie is not going to be registered in. In the fucking Library of Congress of Historic Films. Like, take what you get from the movie and say, whatever, whatever. But if it brought out this in Taylor Swift, I'm fucking with it. Taylor, Bitch. Bitch ass bitch. I know this. I think this bitch knows something is coming because he's gotten out his tired violin. This is her next album. Her next album to me is T. Swifty. Big T Swifty. Go at everyone. All of her normal enemies. Not the guys in the past that were like, you know, exes and all of that stuff that's played out. You know, she got Travis Kelce now. She turned them back white. We've talked about it. It's like she's one of the greatest magicians ever. Just completely turned them back white. That's fantastic. Now Taylor Swift bitch the album.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So what you're.

[Van Lathan]

And just.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, go ahead, go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

No, do a different track about. I'm an idea man. Do a different track about every bitch. But name names. Like name names. Track one, track two, track three. About all of her opps.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Her little bitches.

[Van Lathan]

Her little bitches. T. Swift's bitches. All of her opps. Cause she didn't have a lot of ops.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I like this. I gotta tell you. I'm into this because people are split, right? Some people are like, I am like, man, we shouldn't be seeing this. This is how girlfriends talk to their friends. Like, right? Like, if you're my girl. These are best friends and somebody's messing with you. This is how I'm talking to you, Right? But you're right.

[Van Lathan]

It's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's a side of Taylor we don't normally see. Some people were like, oh, Taylor and Blake are mean girls. And other people are like, this is how you talk with your friends. When somebody is doing something that you feel like isn't right to your friends, I like it. I think she should embrace it. We've seen Taylor reinvent herself before, but never in this way. Now, of course, you know, immediately if she becomes Big Taylor Swift, Big T Swift, like, bitch this, bitch that. You know, they're going to say that she's changing it because she's with Travis. They're going to try to. They're going to, like, you know that that's going to happen. But I'm with you. I say it's worth it. When I'm weighing it out, I'm leaning towards Big T Swift because I think it's something different and I think. I don't know. I don't know how it's going to look, but I'm so curious about it. I'm with it. I'm with Big T Swift.

[Van Lathan]

We're gonna get to the key.

[Rachel Lindsay]

My little bitches made me think about.

[Van Lathan]

By the way, all this came out in newly unsealed court documents, and that's how we got all of this stuff. Has there ever been a couple where they swapped blackness, white people, White couple, where one of them was kind of on the one side and the other one was on the other side. And then in their union, they did a Freaky Friday with wiggers. A wigger Friday to where they're in their union. One of them became a little bit more at least stereotypically, because we're not talking. We just talking about stereotypes here. And the other one became a little less stereotypically. They swapped. They swapped. One of them went straight up to the hood and the other one went to the high plains. Has that ever happened amongst whites?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I really.

[Van Lathan]

There are many couples where it happens amongst blacks. Many couples. I can think of it. Many couples. Because there are some black celebrity couples that they get together so they can pull apart. You can get me here and then I can get you there. There are many black couples that have happened, but I don't know if there are any white couples. Like, this will be like Eminem fucking with Miley Cyrus. And that's not a good example. Whatever. I haven't worked this out, but that would Be interesting if that happened. I was thinking, started cosplaying. Yeah. And then he stopped. If they ships passing in the night.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Got to think about this some more.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Gotta think about this. But we're here for it. Embrace this. Step into this.

[Van Lathan]

I guess I would. It would be interesting if it happened. I don't really give a fuck. But like, what I will say is this right here. When everybody was like, how could Taylor Swift talk like this? I'm like, nah, this is the next thing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She talks like this in some of her music. So does she.

[Van Lathan]

She talks. You would know. You put karma on the song you like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I did put karma on the song. I like certain songs.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You won't catch me at a concert.

[Keith Edwards]

Or, you know, you probably disappointed Scooter.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Waiting for them doing that.

[Van Lathan]

Scooter probably was going through your ig and then he saw that and then he was like, damn, I thought that was my homebrew. Home girl. Why she did that to me?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know that did not happen.

[Van Lathan]

All right, it's Keith Edwards time. Before we get to Keith Edwards, I want you guys to. Next week is going to be a heavy news week. Heavy news. So I want you guys to pay attention to a couple of things. Well, I'm giving you guys some homework. Watch Trump in Davos, Switzerland, talking about the United States and the geopolitical quagmire he has almost started by himself with Greenland. Be concerned with Trump's board of peace, his attempt to realign the international order around himself, which is what he's doing. Be concerned with ice. ICE deployments in new American cities. And not just deployments, but new accusations and testimonies by Americans about how they've been treated by ice. Got to a point to where the Minneapolis police held like and Sheriff's Department, like a joint press conference and talked about the fact that it happened in Minnesota. Up there, should I say, talked about the fact that some of their officers, when they are out off duty, have been targeted by ice. Talked about this. They went and they did this. Like, they talked about the fact that they feel like ICE is getting out of control. So be concerned with all of that and do not lose track or sight of either what's happening with the Justice Department and the Epstein files and also what is going on with AI. Ed Zittran is coming back on this show to talk more about AI. I hope to get Autumn on the show next week, sometime in the next couple of weeks to talk about her Academy Award nomination, but there's a lot of stuff going on a Lot of entertainment stuff we did today. Keep your ear to the grindstone. I keep it to the grindstone. That's what we do here. So you guys be aware of all of that stuff, because we're going to hit it hard. Going to hit hard next week. All right, this is. This is. This is the one that you guys been waiting for.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yep.

[Van Lathan]

They have Rachel, you intro it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Keith Edwards. We intro it at the top of the show.

[Van Lathan]

Keith Edwards on the other side of this break. All right, coming to you from New York. Rachel's there in Los Angeles and she's joined by someone. There's someone white on the set. It doesn't happen very often, but this is smoke. It's smoke that has been brewing for a long time. Keith Edwards, big time media personality, political strategist, a commentator, is known for his work in political communications. He has a gigantic YouTube following. And let's just get right to it. There has been at least somewhat of a back and forth between Keith and Higher Learning fans. I have never directly engaged with Keith. I don't know that Rachel has ever.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I had one comment and I said, you took it out of context.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Keith Edwards]

You reply to one of my posts. Yep.

[Van Lathan]

She replied to one of his posts. And I called Keith out and said, come talk to us. And Keith said, you know what? I duck nothing. And he joins us on Higher Learning today. Keith Edwards, how are you?

[Keith Edwards]

Hey, nice to see you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you for being here. We didn't know if you were going to come, so we do. You came. We appreciate it.

[Keith Edwards]

Well, I got to say, I think this is really important because as I was saying before we started filming, like, the Internet has a way of flattening everything, making everyone either good or evil, right or wrong. And I think the great thing about podcasts is there's nuance. And I think so much of what we've lost on at least, like, Internet discussions is nuanced.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Keith Edwards]

So I'm really grateful to be here. Thank you.

[Van Lathan]

I couldn't agree more. So let's start with this. Why you don't like Jasmine Crockett.

[Keith Edwards]

Wow.

[Van Lathan]

Can I ask, what's the. What you hate most about her?

[Keith Edwards]

What bothers you so much about. I think Jasmine Crockett is amazing at what she does. I think she is a great politician. I actually think she has been a benefit, a net benefit for Democrats. And I think she has been a force in what has been really an overwhelming moment in the media where Republicans are controlling the narrative. And she's been Brilliant at being able to throw a little bit of punches and in landing some hits. So I think she's been great. I think she's been great. I have a hard time. See, we have to put that stuff aside though. And I have a hard time seeing how she can win Senate race in Texas. But that doesn't mean I don't like her. I like Jasmine Crockett. I've talked about her on my channel. Some of my highest viewed videos have been Jasmine Crockett videos. So I like her.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, before I get into the Jasmine Crockett. Cause Van is ready, geared up, ready to go. One of the things I've said about you on the podcast is when Van and I kind of have a back and forth look at him frowning over there, wishing he was here with us.

[Van Lathan]

You're putting ice cubes on the goddamn week. We're into it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no. Cause what I want. Cause one of the things that I've called out is called out is your platform and what it is. Because the way Van and I talk about it, you know, Van will say, well, you don't have to say certain things about one candidate or the other, which is true. And then you have a political platform where I feel like you're pouring out information for us to consume, rather one. It feels one sided. So can you just tell our viewers just flat out before we even get into it all because don't worry then I'm going to come back. What is your platform? What is it that you actually do? Are you just reporting? Are you giving your opinions so that we can set a baseline for that before we get into everything?

[Keith Edwards]

I consider myself a political commentator. Okay. I think people come to me to get news, but I don't consider myself a journalist. I do secondhand reporting where I'm just talking about what other people have reported on and I give my opinion. So I don't. I don't consider myself someone that you'd want to go to for like both sides of a. Of a, of an argument. So I really am just giving my opinion.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are you campaigning for James?

[Keith Edwards]

No, no, no, no.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It feels that way.

[Keith Edwards]

Well, I mean, I. I'm campaigning for Democrats to win control of the Senate. I really want Democrats to get power again. So that's. That. That is the, the basis behind everything.

[Van Lathan]

I'm doing to that point though. Is it possible? Let's. Let's talk about James Talarico before you even get into the Jasmine Crockett thing. Like Rachel said, she just took the momentum right out of that like.

[Keith Edwards]

So.

[Van Lathan]

Let'S talk about this. Is it possible that what's happening in Texas is that Talarico came along and a lot of people thought that he represented an opportunity to turn the state blue, at least for that Senate seat. And it got behind that. Even you could say that higher learning.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, we did.

[Van Lathan]

Was very excited about him, and they got behind that. And they're a little annoyed with Jasmine jumping into the race because they feel like either the primary process will hurt him or they feel like they can't be critical of her because of identity, like James Talarico. If this was another white guy, you could look at him and say, james Talarico's a lot better than this guy. But it seems like Jasmine is pissing you guys off or pissing some people off because you had already hitched your wagon, pass past behind James, and now here comes somebody else, and on top of it is somebody that whenever you criticize, then people get mad.

[Keith Edwards]

Well, I. I think it's everyone's right to run. I am such a. I'm a big believer in primaries. I think if she feels like she has something to add to the conversation, if she feels like she can best represent the state, and if she thinks that she can actually win the state, she should absolutely run. I. I don't. I don't. I don't have any problems with that. I don't think a lot of people do either. I think primaries make politicians healthier. I think they make campaigns stronger, and I think they make us better to know, like, where. Like, actually, this has been great because we can, like, see these fault lines in the Democratic Party that maybe we just didn't know still were there. So I think, to your point, that the fact that people are super critical of someone like me just for being critical of someone running for higher office is good to know. This is all good information. So I don't think we should be upset at Jasmine or anyone else who says that they feel like they can best represent the people in their state or their community.

[Van Lathan]

Can I double back real quick?

[Keith Edwards]

Yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Let me tell you, like, to add a little bit more onto that. Is that what some people feel like is when she got into the race, there really wasn't. And there are some people who have to do this and some people who don't. We talked about that. There really wasn't any analysis of who she was or what she's done. Jasmine Crockett is a pretty fully formed political entity. That wasn't the thing. It seemed like for a lot of People, the first thing they heard is that a. She can't win. James is a better choice to win and we didn't get into. Because she has a national political record that he doesn't have.

[Keith Edwards]

Sure.

[Van Lathan]

And it kind of wasn't looked at from that point of view. It seems like a lot of people were saying, not gonna happen, not gonna happen, not gonna happen. And bad idea. And so for the people that were critical of pundits who had something to say about Jasmine Crockett, I think it feels like to them that her candidacy took the wind of. Out of the sales of James Talarico's rise a little bit.

[Keith Edwards]

That that could potentially be true. I don't know.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, is it true with you?

[Keith Edwards]

No, no, I don't. I mean, I think. I actually think it's been great. It's actually probably has given more attention to the primary or to the, to the election that maybe otherwise wouldn't have been there. I know not a lot of people are really focused on it. When it was just him and the gentleman that dropped out, I forgot his name at the moment.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Allred.

[Keith Edwards]

Yes. Yes. And so it was kind of like it was this thing happening in the back. It was a low hum. And I think it's kind of brought it to the forefront. And I, But I, I don't really think anyone should be upset that, that people are running for office. I mean, I was never the type of person that, like when Bernie Sanders ran in 2016, that, like, you, you shouldn't run. It's not, you know, it's not your turn, blah, blah. I hate that. I hate that. Can we swear?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes.

[Keith Edwards]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes.

[Keith Edwards]

I hate that shit. I hate if, if, if you think you have a good idea, if you think you can best represent your people, run, run. And I think we could in hindsight now, I think we can see that Bernie Sanders running probably did create. Though he didn't win. I think he won in the long run because he created a complete movement of people who believe what he believes and has kind of shaped the party in a new direction. So I do think primaries are good. I think they're good now. I don't think what's good is that it is that when we're critical, the people who decide that they want to run for higher office and we say, all right, well, how are you going to win? Or are you going to get the votes? You've said these things. Don't you think the things you've said are going to impact the way that the second largest voting block in the state is going to think about you. I think that those are important questions to ask because we need to make sure that we run the right person. And so to the 2016 example, I think when Hillary Clinton was just seen, it was just like, well, get out of her way. Get out. It's her turn. Get out of her way. I don't actually think that made us stronger. So I think we actually do. We should have these conversations and to try to shut someone up, just because they're critical of your candidate for some sort of perceived reason that isn't there doesn't make your candidate stronger and doesn't make the party stronger.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I think that's like, that's some of the stuff I want to get into, because there really isn't a poll or data that says Jasmine Crockett cannot win. That really isn't there. And then on the other side of it, you can really argue that, you know, as Van said, that Jasmine Crockett really is an established entity. She's a national public figure. We know who she is. You can make an argument. And there is polling to show that a lot of people don't know James Talarico. I think that that can change based on the primary. I think that that can change off the debate that's coming up this week. Week. So it's hard to. So I think where you see some of the criticism is how do you know it's James and it's not Jasmine? What are you basing that off?

[Keith Edwards]

Well, well, first off, Jasmine Crockett's never had to run in a competitive race ever. James Taller Kill has. He's had to run in a competitive general election against a Republican. Jasmine Crockett never has had. Now, she could be great at it. We don't know James.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She did for the Democratics for her seat because when she took over for Eddie Bernice Johnson, there were a lot like she was backed by Eddie Bernice. But she did. It was competitive within, I'm saying, versus a Republican.

[Keith Edwards]

Okay. And. And the Abbott Talarico voter isn't an idea. It exists. There's. There are many. Like, he won in 2018 district that Abbott carried. He flipped it. That, to me, is good information. It's good information. And it was actually a Washington Post did a piece on this today where a pollster in Texas who's not working with either of the candidates said that she actually has reverse mobilization where Jasmine, when she, if she were to be on the ballot, may very well actually bring out more Republicans votes because she's more. She's so polarizing. It's that she compared it to, like, Marjorie Taylor Greene. If Marjorie Taylor Greene were to run, there might be a polarization effect on the Democratic side that would bring out more Democrats to vote against her.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why is she polarizing?

[Keith Edwards]

Well, Jasmine Crockett is extremely anti Trump and a state that I think there's a lot of people who probably support Trump. I mean, maybe not in the way that they used to, but. But she is a lightning rod and you kind of have to be to do what she's done, which is to build name ID and to become a national figure. So it's been good for her. I just don't know if it's been good for her to win a general election in Texas.

[Van Lathan]

So, you know, you got it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

One follow up.

[Van Lathan]

No, you got it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think the other thing too is you, you did a video where you talked about your reasoning as to why you think Jasmine can win versus. I'm sorry, why you think James can win versus Jasmine. Like your opinion based off that. And you say something in your video. And this is where I think it gets a little confusing for me and maybe some people who are a little critical. So in your video, you say you want to lay some things out and see that this is all about doing what's right and for a right and strategic decision in the primary. And so you're like, I just want to lay out this information. But when you look at your social, it doesn't feel like you're laying it out in a fair way. It seems like, and I'll give you some examples, like, it seems like you're only showing one side of James and then only showing one side of Jasmine. And this is where I think the critique is coming from. You know, with Jasmine, you put her campaign video out, which we talked about here, and then versus James, which again we talked about. But then Jasmine very quickly spoke to her constituents in Dallas for 40 minutes.

[Keith Edwards]

Can I talk about that?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, you don't. Okay, okay. I'll just finish it. She. Well, I feel like she talked about her for 40 minutes and showed a different side of Jasmine versus the, the what the video showed.

[Van Lathan]

Sure.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But that wasn't, that wasn't evident on your, your platform.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Keith Edwards]

But that's bad campaigning.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why?

[Keith Edwards]

Because the, the most, the thing most people are going to see is your launch video.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Keith Edwards]

So if she wanted people to see that side of her, that should have been the launch video. But 45 minute speech, that's with a low production value, not a Lot of people are going to pay attention to that. And that's just a bad campaign strategy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But isn't. But having a political platform, wouldn't you say that it's worth showing to voters like, I'm presenting this. Jasmine is more than just this video. And again, it's your platform. You're right. I'm just saying why people say it's critical. Or you post a picture of Jasmine on an APAC trip. But there's nothing about James Talarico in that letter that he sent out about how he feels about Israel. It just feels like, hey, I'm gonna show that Jasmine gets all this money from big donors that are Republicans. But I'm not going to talk about the controversial donor that, that James Talarico has behind him. Even if it was to support a different cause, she's still putting a lot of money behind him.

[Keith Edwards]

It was $50,000 and it was through a pact, not directly to him. But yes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right. It wasn't for that purpose. But yeah.

[Keith Edwards]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's still money that's received. So it's like Kate.

[Keith Edwards]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Miriam else. Miriam Adelson.

[Keith Edwards]

Yeah. Miriam. Yeah, I know. Not great.

[Van Lathan]

I know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So that's. I guess that's what I'm just saying. Like, I guess it's not presenting it, but I'm as a way for people.

[Keith Edwards]

To commentator and my. I believe James has the best shot of winning. That is what I believe now. I think, I think it's going to still be hard. I've worked in primaries. I've worked. I've worked in competitive. I've worked in competitive primaries. I think about this all the time. Where the overwhelming narrative in my primary, someone running for governor. In Florida, we were the underdogs and there was someone else running who was the former governor, was that you cannot win. You cannot win this primary. And even if you were to win this primary, there's no way you're going to win this general election. The job of our campaign is not to tell you why you're wrong because you're misogynistic and you're blah, blah, blah. It is to show you how we're right. And I, my, what I, what I am trying to do on my platforms is show you why I'm right. Okay. And so if Jasmine Crockett thinks she can win in Texas, that's good. Show me how. I haven't seen it. In fact, there's a quote today where she told me, well, if we're all or not me. But she told the Washington Post if we're Both. I'm paraphrasing. If we're both going to lose, why not just try me? Because, you know, maybe we can try something different. It's like, I don't want to know how you're going to lose. I want to know how you're going to win. When I worked on a campaign for U.S. senate in Georgia, there are people on that campaign that were like, we are not going to win. I was like, then why the fuck are you. Why the fuck are you working on this campaign? Because I believe we're going to win. I believe we're going to win. Politics is. This is a old time quote. Politics. The art of it is the art of what's possible. Don't tell me what's impossible. Tell me what's possible. I'm trying to show you why I think this is possible. I actually do think James Salarico is like a generational talent. I love the way he talks about God and Christianity. I think one of the most crazy things he says is that Donald Trump is a child of God, just like you and me. That's wild to hear. But I think it's also like, I think we have to move past the politics of division. And I like what he's offering. And I think it actually, there's something there. There's a specialness there that I think could work in Texas now. I'm not saying it will. I think it could. I haven't seen on Jasmine's side a serious campaign that is actually looking to grow the base. In fact, in that Washington Post article today, she again doubled down that she just doesn't feel like she needs Trump voters. I would like to know how. I would like to know how. She says that it's because that she can bring out a different type of voter. Well, okay, how Donald Trump is the most famous man in the world. He even had. It was called Trump Force 47. I think I got that right. Whereas it was a community organizing effort in swing states where he had. He gave people special hats and they were in charge of their neighborhood to make sure they brought out low propensity voters. The most famous man in the world had to persuade voters. And you're telling me that she does not. I don't believe that now she might believe that to be true. That is the job of the campaign to show me how that's possible.

[Van Lathan]

Couple things. It was interesting to me what you said about Marjorie Taylor Greene. What you said about Marjorie Taylor Greene was that Marjorie Taylor Greene was someone that. That. And before I even say this. I don't have a problem with you deciding that you like a candidate and then backing that candidate on your platform. I don't have a problem with it. I do not have a problem with that. I do that. I'm not gonna sit here and what's the gentleman in Missouri, Wesley Bell, Is that his name? The one that got all the money.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who got all the. Backed by a pac?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who was backed by aipac. You guys make sure I have that right. I'm not going to pretend like I'm going to support him over Cori Bush so that people, so that people that are listening to higher learning can feel like I'm being fair. I'm not going to do that. We talked about it before. I'm not going to pretend like, oh, let's, let's look into what. I look at candidates and then I come on the podcast and I tell people why I support who I support. I have no problem with anyone doing that. I will say this, though, and I think it's interesting to note a couple of things. You said earlier that Marjorie Taylor Greene is somebody that mobilizes voters, Democratic voters, to come out and vote right.

[Keith Edwards]

Now, that's what this pollster said.

[Van Lathan]

Yes, pollster say that. Now, she was in a district where she had a tremendous advantage. Right. However, the fact that she riles up Democrats and motivates them to vote doesn't change the support base that she has within her own party. The fact that she annoys Democrats, the fact that she gets people out to come vote. You could make the argument that Donald Trump himself gets people out to vote specifically against him. Doesn't change the strength of the base or how people look at these candidates running. What they do is they take these people and regardless of how they make the other side feel, they take these people and they pour money into them and they try to dominate. They say, this is the candidate that we like. Doesn't matter what you do. And they try to dominate. So I think it's interesting in this particular situation, I understand the complexities of it. That that would be a thing that would be brought up. I understand the complexities of it. If you have a guy that can appeal both to Abbott voters and to Democrats, I can understand why that prospect would be alluring. Okay. Something else you said. You said politics is about what's possible. Well, that's not as true if you're a black lady, because what we're talking about as it relates to Jasmine Crockett, how this conversation started was about what's not possible. And even that, like, I don't have a problem with any of that stuff. Like, I don't think she can win. I don't think she can win. I don't think she can do it. I don't think she can win. That's going to bother people. And if we're going to have a conversation, and the conversation is going to be honest within our coalition and the conversation is going to be honest about how we perceive each other, that, hey, you can't do it. Let's. We've tried. Two ladies, one black lady. What we're gonna do now is find the white guy that we like the most and let's get back to the center. Listen, listen. Hold on, hold on. I'm not saying that. You're saying that.

[Keith Edwards]

No, no, no, no.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not saying that you're saying that. What I'm saying is I can understand that being a knee jerk. And if that's the case, just tell us. Make the case plain. Make it loudly and make it clearly, because there are a lot of people who might actually go for that. But if they feel the twinges of the other stuff, we're gonna end up doing this. And I think that has to be considered when we're having these conversations, whether or not I think what you did and said is fair or not. And I don't think that it's unfair, but I do think if you're gonna be in coalition with people that there might be concerns that they raise that you have to take on a little bit.

[Keith Edwards]

Fair. Fair.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Do you think a black woman can win a U.S. senate seat in Texas?

[Keith Edwards]

I think black woman can win a U.S. tenant. Yes. Yes. Do I think Jasmine Crockett. I think Jasmine Crockett has a hard time. I think that's the difference, is that it's not. It's not just like. I actually think a black woman with the right politics and who is truly, I don't want to say a moderate, but someone who is not polarizing, because I think that's part of Jasmine Crockett's brand, is that she's a polarizing figure in a place that you actually need to mobilize and persuade people who might otherwise not vote for you.

[Van Lathan]

Can't catch you a question. Real quick, give me a black woman that's in politics right now who isn't polarizing.

[Keith Edwards]

Well, I don't think Stacey Abrams was very polarizing. Was she?

[Van Lathan]

That's crazy.

[Keith Edwards]

Was she?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know if polarizing is the word that I would use. But not as. Go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

I wouldn't say that she was like, she wasn't fiery, but they essentially made Stacey Abrams. Like, they made Stacey Abrams, in my opinion, like, to me, the mascot of, like, Whip. They. She was attacked. Big time.

[Keith Edwards]

She was attacked.

[Van Lathan]

I wouldn't say she was polarized.

[Rachel Lindsay]

She wasn't polarized.

[Keith Edwards]

She's not polarizing, though. And she almost won.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. Wow.

[Keith Edwards]

I mean. I mean.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I think. Cause. And I hate to keep going back to this, but I think that this is such an important conversation because this is what kind of drew us all in together.

[Keith Edwards]

Sure.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Was not being able one. Like, you talked about. Things on social media are very flat. When you're doing a podcast, you can have a conversation and you could talk about these things a little bit more. And that's why I keep going back to. Which I do feel like I have a better understanding of. You know, you're giving your. This is who. What you feel like can win, and that's what you're putting out there versus me saying to you, can you put it out more evenly? Because that's what's kind of been the critique. And I think if that was more of the response, maybe that and maybe I missed it on social media, then maybe people would feel a little different because I like even going back and looking at your stuff. You have been very positive of Jasmine Crockett, and you've liked the call out and, you know, you've liked the brand, and I think a lot of people do. But then it feels like that's only good over here, and it doesn't. It won't work here. It feels like it's positive here. Stay in this place. But it immediately. We're writing it off here. Which is why I asked you, do you think a black woman can win in a Senate seat in Texas? And then if you do, it's like, well, then what type of black woman can it be? Like, who is that person? Then I'll ask you on the. On the other side of it. Let's just say Jasmine Crockett does win the primary. I've seen you say you're going to support Jasmine Crockett.

[Keith Edwards]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Do you feel like your lack of putting the other side that I've said out there, you know, like, you're. I feel like you're showing one side of Jasmine and one side of James. Do you feel like that is hurting the Texas voter because you've only talked about it a necessary way? You've been more critical of Jasmine for Texas than Positive. So how do you then switch it? And I think Van and I talked a little bit about that for. And I'm not saying you can't be critical, but how do, how do you then rally voters to now get behind Jasmine? Because we've talked, you've talked about the things that you're not seeing from her, which I do think are there. And I'll do a follow up in a second. But how do you then rally people to say, okay, now we're going to vote for her and this is why, not just because she's the Democrat, why they should vote for her?

[Keith Edwards]

Well, I think that's the campaign's job to help, help sell that. But, but I personally don't believe being critical of politicians in primaries hurts them. I think it helps them. And everything that I've posted about is going to be used against her in a general election. And so she needs to have answers for it. Now, if she were to win, I don't think the answer she's given so far, I mean, she was asked about the Latino, you know, where she said that, like compared Latinos who are immigrants to slaves. She answered that on Jake Tapper. I thought not very well. And I think she needs to have a better answer for that. But I think, you know, beautiful things happen when someone wins an election. It's kind of like, it's like a rebirth. Right? And so like Joe Biden. Joe Biden had Kamala Harris as his vp. Kamala Harris famously called him racist in the primary. You know, like there's a way in which primary primaries are for battling and then elections are for coming together. And I 100% know that there, regardless of who wins the primary, we can champion that person and do the best job that we can to try to get over the finish line. I just personally believe that it, that there's a lot of complications of things she said in the past and her brand, for lack of a better word, that makes it, makes it more complicated.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Do you feel like you're listening to locals in Texas when it comes to what the voters actually think and are saying about this, this primary? Because Jasmine Crockett and James Talariko really aren't that far off on the issues that they stand for. They're very, they're quite similar. And so if you listen, there's a lot, I feel like there's a lot of undecided voters and I'm wondering maybe whether it's critics. I know you've gone back and forth with Erica Harrison, black girls who brunch she's very active there in Harrison, Harris county, throughout Texas. Are you listening to maybe some of the critiques that they have or maybe even the information they have in regards to what is really going on in Texas when it comes to this primary? Because I know you're quoting, like, I.

[Keith Edwards]

Feel like on the Internet, I mean, if we were to have this, if we were to have a conversation, probably it would be easier to listen. But I do think a lot of the, A lot of the critiques about my understanding of what's happening in this race have been kind of just bad faith attacks. And so it makes it hard for me to want to listen to their analysis when it's kind of wrapped in a shit sandwich, to be honest.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because, like, the example.

[Keith Edwards]

Because I haven't attacked. Be clear. I haven't attacked anyone.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, you posted Erica's profile on. And like, so what's. If that's not an attack, what's the not an attack? You took her profile, you posted it and you were like, this woman has been coming after me with false information and stuff. But when you post that to your following, what purpose is that other than.

[Keith Edwards]

For example, to attack that person? No, it's not to attack. It's to actually just make aware of, like, something to make aware of, like one that I've said, hey, you got this wrong. Do you want to correct the record? She didn't want to do that. I was like, all right, well, that's good to know. Because if I get something wrong, I try to say I got that wrong or I made a mistake.

[Van Lathan]

What did she get wrong? Just our audience know.

[Keith Edwards]

Well, I mean, it was that you, they, you said that I took a clip of yours out of context. And then a week later you commented on this and said that I did not take it out of context. And I know I didn't take it well.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I didn't feel like.

[Van Lathan]

I didn't feel like. I still feel like Rachel did.

[Keith Edwards]

Well, regardless, I, And I said, do you want to just quickly apo. Because she, she really went hard on me. Like, I was turning on threads, like being a racist and all this sort of stuff because of, just because of political analysis critiques I've had on this campaign, I'm totally willing to bear the brunt of that for what I believe in. But when someone gets something wrong and they're not able to, like, oh, yeah, you're right, you know, he did whatever. And it becomes like, I'm actually not going to even acknowledge. It's just then it's like, all right, well, that's good to know because I actually don't know if I can trust your analysis if, like, you can't admit when you get something, when you miss the mark.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, I think when I was looking at, at some of the, the back and forth that the two of you have, which I, you know, we can agree to disagree. But if I've, because I've done it before, right, where like, somebody's come at me and I've posted it on my stories and it's kind of like I want, like, do what, do what you will with this information because this person's coming at me. So it kind of felt that way. But when I was looking at Erica, because I follow her, she's like, she has said, I don't think, she doesn't think that you're a racist, but what she said was, and she says she's undecided in voting, but what she said was kind of this intent versus impact. And it feels like even though your intent means no harm, the impact of some of the thing, the information and the way that you're putting, putting out there, whether I'm not saying I agree with that, but the way you're putting it out there has this, it feels like it has this undertone. What would you say to that?

[Keith Edwards]

I mean, I, you have to, I mean, I've, I've, I've worked, I've, I've built accounts on the Internet for the Lincoln project from like 200,000 followers to 2.4 million. You don't do it by being nice. Okay? Unfortunately, there's, there's a way to get things seen the Internet, and you have to be a little bit abrasive. I hate that about it, but that's just kind of how it is. And so I think it's the abrasiveness and the maybe the way in which I'm short and how I explain, explain how I think that can look, can look a certain way. But I am just doing that because I'm trying to get the thing that I'm trying to talk about in front of as many people as possible. And eventually, like, I mean, you'll see like, even that clip with Matt Rogers where he was like, I don't think, I don't think you should donate to Jasmine Crockett, guys, because I don't think she can get elected. I'm the one who shared that clip and got that viral. So, like, I, I kind of have a sense of what I'm doing here. And I, I, I'VE done campaigns for a long time, and I know how to advocate for what I believe. And so if people are going to misconstrue that, if they don't want to actually meet me where I am with my ideas and just attack me for something that's not there, then I just think that that means that they don't have a lot that they can stand on and what they believe. Because I'm just telling you what I believe. I'm just saying what I think about this campaign. Who can win? Who can't win? Why, here's some. Here's some clips and some things that are being said that I think are interesting. And instead of, like, countering with that, with, like, well, here's what I think. Here's what I believe. It's actually just a personal attack. And I don't think that is. I. I don't think that speaks very highly the people who are doing it.

[Van Lathan]

Well. Okay, fair enough. I'll say a couple of things. Number one, I do not agree with the both of you guys. I don't agree with you guys that Stacey Abrams isn't polarizing. All right? I just wanna let you guys know. I don't.

[Keith Edwards]

I just don't think.

[Van Lathan]

I don't think she. I don't think she's polarizing in the way that Donald Trump is polarizing. I think that Stacey Abrams is polarizing even inside of the party. And I think that if you asked her, she would probably say that. I definitely think that she's polarizing. Number one, couple of things here. Cause I wanna get to the conversation that we're actually having, the thing that we're actually talking about. It's interesting that you just said that. There's a way that you have to communicate in that way. It's not necessarily nice, am I. And I think.

[Keith Edwards]

I don't think I'd say. Because that would imply it's mean. I don't think it's mean. I think it's just abrasive. I think there's a tone in which you have to say things on the Internet if you want them to travel beyond your small following.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, cool. Let's say that me and you are in a restaurant or somewhere or something like that. And in front of me is a black lady. And she was ordering something. You are. She's actually ordering it from. You're serving her. You're like, you're waiting on her. And you say to her. You say to her, lady, it's busy in here. Just give me your order. Do you know what I'm gonna say? Don't talk to her like that. Like, reflex. I'm gonna be like, hey, don't talk to her like that. Even if I fuck up and talk to her.

[Keith Edwards]

Wrong.

[Van Lathan]

Cause that happens, right? Sometimes I have to be told that. But immediately in my soul, if I see you being abrasive, surrounding, like, a black lady, I'm gonna be like, don't talk to her like that. Like, just, hey, just do your job. Do what you gotta do. Don't talk to her like that. And that's because we actually don't want to. What you hit on right there is actually what we're talking about. What people see is a lack of care inside of a coalition that purports to care about black women.

[Keith Edwards]

Now, I would like to.

[Van Lathan]

Wait a second. No, no, no, no, no. Let me wait a second. I'm not saying you. I'm not saying that you purport to care about black women. I'm not saying that you have a lack of care. What I'm saying is that this is happening on the left. This is happening within a coalition and beneath us, voting the same way. There are questions about whether or not there are cracks, not in the intelligentsia of what we're doing from a political standpoint, but in the community. Like, that's what it is. Are there cracks in the community of what it is that we're doing? Meaning if in fact, politics is a rough sport and everybody kind of gets roughed up a little bit, is there an understanding that it means a little bit something different sometimes? When that roughing up is coming from a black man, from a white man to a black woman, Is there an understanding of what that means, of how we. And we're having this conversation with America all the time, whether or not America looks like Keith or not right now. If you say, I don't care, I don't care about that, I shouldn't have to care about that. That's not a real calculation I should have to make. I'm not so sure that there are not a lot of people who would agree with you like I agree with you about primaries. Primaries is where you're supposed to get your ass kicked. Is where all of this shit. We had Gavin Newsom on. I asked Gavin Newsom about aipac. He answered it fucking terribly. I did him a favor. The next time he gets asked that, he should be able to answer it better, particularly if he's in the general. If he's, like, running for president, right, he should be able to Answer that. That's what you're supposed to do. I will say this though, and I'll ask you this. When you're going back and forth with people and there are black ladies and there is appearance of a power matrix there, do you get why we want you to be nice and civil and partly protective of black women? Do you understand where that comes from?

[Keith Edwards]

If I'm being honest, I, how I act, I feel like how I've acted with Jasmine Crockett is no different than I've acted with any other candidate or any other politician.

[Van Lathan]

I agree.

[Keith Edwards]

So I don't, I just don't understand. I just don't understand. I don't understand why with this specific person I literally, when I trended on threads first and I was being called a racist. Do you know the post that, that made that happen was. It was the clip where she was saying I don't need to win Trump voters. And literally all I said was, I think you do. I think, I think you need Trump voters to win in Texas. And it was like, how dare you. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just don't, I again, like, I can take it. I just don't think it's healthy. I don't think it's a healthy response. Response to what is the most mild. And it's not even criticism. It's just, I just think it's analysis. So I don't, I don't fully understand. I don't fully understand that knee jerk thing that happens in the Internet in some areas. I mean, I guess I kind of do. I think there's people who have made a living off of rage baiting and clout chasing. And you know, some people, that is how they get the following is they as they see someone like me and that's like a prime opportunity to get some likes. And I.

[Van Lathan]

Wait a second, hold on. So you think their to that is insincere? You don't think they mean it?

[Keith Edwards]

I think there is an ins. I don't know. Actually I've been told that people think I'm actually racist. So I don't know, maybe they actually sincerely think I'm racist.

[Van Lathan]

But hold on. Whether or not they think you're racist or not, let's stay here for a second because this is very interesting. As we talk and get this all stuff, get this stuff out. You think when someone sees, even if they're wrong, let's say even if they're wrong and they're analyzing how you talk about or communicate about Congresswoman Crockett, you think they don't mean it? Do you think they don't feel the feelings that they're feeling? Do you think they're doing it for likes and clicks? Or do you think they're just wrong? Because those are two different things. One is just, hey, we need to have conversations about how we're less hung up on identity in situations like that. That is a conversation that needs to be had.

[Keith Edwards]

I agree.

[Van Lathan]

The other one, I think these are actually.

[Keith Edwards]

I think they're the same conversation. Sorry to cut you off, but I do think they're the same conversation.

[Van Lathan]

They're not. Let me tell you why.

[Keith Edwards]

Because. Well, tell me why. Because.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, I'll tell you why. Okay, I'll tell you why. One is saying, toughen up. The other one is saying, stop lying. One is. So one is saying, you are genuinely in a place that is unhelpful to even you. You are genuinely there. You genuinely see things happening where they're not seeing, where you shouldn't be seeing them. You're looking at mirages. The other one is saying that you are specifically weaponizing your identity. You're specifically weaponizing the pain and massaging the war and all of those things that you have a thought that when you see a mark, you take that mark down and you use your identity to take that mark down. That view of it is cynical and it actually assigns a real, real, like insidious, Insidious set of values to a whole group of people that makes them into bots or they're trying to come up off you or anything like that. The other one is something that can be discussed. The first one is. The second one can't. Those people would have to be excised out of the political conversation. You'd have to just get rid of them all.

[Keith Edwards]

I don't think everyone who's gotten mad at me does it in bad faith. I think there are probably people who don't really consider. Consider much and they just want to pull the trigger on something that looks like they can get some likes. And I think it's probably a little bit of both, to be honest. And I hate that. I hate that. But, but. And I could be wrong, you know, maybe I'm wrong. I don't think I am. It feels like there are some accounts on the Internet that they just, they. They do really traffic in this type of content where they see someone like me and it's like automatically racist, automatically thinking, like, the lowest, the lowest opinion of, like, why I. Why I'm saying what I say. So I, I I don't know. I hope not. Actually. I. I hope not. But. But I do think there does need to be a conversation around. Around identity and around. Around the way in which it's being. Being used to.

[Van Lathan]

Start it right here. Give us your thoughts.

[Keith Edwards]

Well, I feel like. I mean, it feels. It feels. If I'm being completely honest, as a white guy, which, by the way, I like, it's like. Like it's. I'm just born white. Like, it's not like, I. I don't. But it does feel like there is.

[Van Lathan]

I know it's been hard.

[Keith Edwards]

Yeah. But there is. Like.

[Van Lathan]

I know it's been really tough.

[Keith Edwards]

Oh, God. Oh, God. At first, I thought you're being sincere.

[Van Lathan]

I was like, I am, Keith. You gotta let me hit you. Like, you gotta let me get joke. You gotta let me get jokes.

[Keith Edwards]

No, I know.

[Van Lathan]

I know.

[Keith Edwards]

I know.

[Van Lathan]

You just. Like, you just said. Like, you just said, hey, I'm a white guy. I can't help it. I was born this way. I know God is.

[Keith Edwards]

No, but it does feel like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It feels like you can't talk about.

[Keith Edwards]

About it. Yes. Or like I feel like I'm in so much trouble already, so. It's fine.

[Van Lathan]

You're not.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no, you're not. Because, bro, we really want to have this conversation because you're not the only person this is happening to. Again. We had. It was a whole Matt Rogers, Bow and Yang thing. And. And I. I understand what you're saying. Like, Van Ha. Like Van said, he has to be. Van. You have. He has to do things.

[Van Lathan]

Hold on. Like, by the way, I don't think that any of. I don't think that. Rachel, I apologize.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no. Just finish your thought. Just go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

No, I don't think that any of the coverage you've done about jazz. It hasn't bothered me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, it hasn't.

[Van Lathan]

It literally hasn't. It hasn't bothered me. It hasn't bothered me. It hasn't bothered the Bow and Yang thing and all of that stuff, that. None of that stuff bothers me. I'm here to talk about it all. I actually think, though, the more that I talk to you, I do think that you. That there is something where you feel like. Or not you. Let's not personalize it. I do feel like we sometimes get into these discussions. It's the same reason why I thought that Graham Platner should talk to black people about what's going on. We still don't want to believe that the emotions that black people feel around Their protection are genuine. That, I think is worth examining. Because if we're having a conversation about identity and how we have to let go of identity, the question would be, is why we so touchy about it? Like, what makes you so touchy about it?

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is what I'll say when I ask you, because it is. You should be able to be critical. We talked about that. We. I said that. I actually don't even think that Jasmine Crockett would like, would, would. I think she's fully capable of stepping up to the challenge and she would love to show herself that way. And I'm sure we will see it in this debate coming up this weekend. I do think that we do ourself a disservice when you cannot fully critique, even if we are being protective for whatever reason, because that is what we do within our community. But I do think that some of the sensitivity comes in, for example, with when I say, do you think a black woman can run? And you're like, yes. And then you're like, but Jasmine Crockett is polarizing. That doesn't get that label. And that's not you saying that she is polarizing.

[Keith Edwards]

People say, Marjorie Taylor Greene isn't it?

[Rachel Lindsay]

But like, she's a part that doesn't really become, be an. It's not really a negative for a non black person. And that's where the sensitivity comes.

[Keith Edwards]

But it is nobody. Taylor Greene is not running for Senate or governor even though she wanted to, because even Republicans knew that if she were to be on the ballot, that's one of the reasons.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But think about why they're polarizing. Think about why they're polarizing. Right? They're. They are both. Let me just finish this. They're both polarizing. Right?

[Keith Edwards]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But think about why Jasmine is versus why Marjorie Taylor Greene is. Marjorie Taylor Greene is a conspiracy theorist. I mean, she's put out lies, misinformation, disinformation. Where Jasmine Crockett, let's be honest, she's polarizing because she, as a black woman, holds her ground. And that intimidates a lot of people. So that's what I mean about the fairness of it is it's, it's almost, it's faulty to compare them because she is. She's polarizing because she's a black woman.

[Keith Edwards]

Marjorie is polarizing. I mean, to compare them in style or substance, but I just mean to compare them in the way that they're extreme partisans. That's, that is the comparison, but not in style.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And do you understand what I'm saying as to, like, where there's this sensitivity because Jasmine really is polarizing. It's not because she's controversial. It's because she is who she is as a black woman. And that is. That makes a lot of people.

[Keith Edwards]

That makes that white people feel threatened. That makes sense to me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And that is not. That same, like, stereotype is not put on white people. And so that's where I think this sensitivity comes in. And if we're going to have a conversation, I think we have to address that. Again, I'm not saying that that's you. It's just that that is the general thought of Jasmine can't be. Jasmine can't to win, but a white person can.

[Keith Edwards]

Yeah, I think. But it's not about, like, I think Jasmine. I think, by the way, Jasmine could. If it weren't Texas, if Jasmine were running in, I don't know, Delaware, I think she'd win. She'd win.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But you realize. I'm not saying that's you who thinks that. I'm just telling you why. Because we're having the conversation why there's a sensitive sensitivity like where black women who are being critical are coming from.

[Keith Edwards]

Yes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Not. And I'm not saying it's fair to label you that because we have said on this podcast we don't think that you're racist or a misogynist in any way. But that's the unders. I'm gonna try to have a conversation. Understanding.

[Keith Edwards]

I understand. That makes sense to me. I mean, I actually, I guess I hadn't fully thought about that. I hadn't fully thought about that. But when I, like, I don't really like the word polarizing. And maybe it was bad of me to bring up what this pollster said in Texas, but I do think it's just like the partisan quality of her, of her brand. That is. That is. That is challenging. Challenging in Texas. But. But I understand the word polarizing can be very sensitive. And I actually hadn't fully appreciated what it means for Jasmine to be fully herself and to get all this attention and how that could be negatively seen from a big part of the electorate.

[Van Lathan]

You've been very generous with your time. I'll say this. And just so people know, did. That Marjorie Taylor Greene is not running again in Texas because in Georgia.

[Keith Edwards]

Georgia.

[Van Lathan]

Because she's in Georgia. She's not running again in Georgia because she's polarizing. That's not why she's not running. She's not running again in Georgia has nothing to do with being polarizing. Being polarizing actually made her who she is. Being as polarizing and as far to the right and as uncompromising, that made her her career. She lost her power base. When she actually became less polarizing.

[Keith Edwards]

Well, you're missing.

[Van Lathan]

She became less polarizing and she started. I call her Marjorie Taylor King. She started. She started going on centrist places like CNN and being critical of the president. She started actually moving away from the far right MAGA base, not on a whole litany of issues.

[Keith Edwards]

But you know why she did that?

[Van Lathan]

But she did that because she wasn't supported by the president in a race and they had a beef. Cover this stuff.

[Keith Edwards]

But do you know why she wasn't supported by the president?

[Van Lathan]

I know. Why was she not supported by the president?

[Keith Edwards]

Because she can't win. She can't win in Georgia, right? Yeah, she couldn't win.

[Van Lathan]

No, a Senate race. Hold on, hold on. A Senate race. She can't win. She can't win a Senate race in Georgia. And she might not be able to win a Senate race in Georgia. Because she's too kooky. Not because she's. Not. Because she's too polar.

[Keith Edwards]

No, because she might not be able to. Negative. It's. It's the same, like, negative mobilization that, that, that this pollster asserts that Jasmine Crockett might have, like, people will come.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Out and vote against.

[Van Lathan]

Yes, but, but understand what we're talking about. If we're talking about. I'm not so sure she can't win, by the way, because Tommy Tuberville won like other, like other people like that. I'm not so sure she can't win like Tommy Tuberville.

[Keith Edwards]

That's Alabama. It's a little different.

[Van Lathan]

It's.

[Keith Edwards]

But see, look at all the Georgia purple.

[Van Lathan]

Look at all stuff. She might not be able to be like Warnock or Ossoff or one of those guys. But as far as to be a darling of her party, her extreme views were something that made her that. Right. And so.

[Keith Edwards]

Well, she wasn't darling at first. She actually was. She was actually like, thrown. She was basically, like, ostracized from the party. When she first came into power, she very slowly got accepted over time.

[Van Lathan]

She got accepted over time because the.

[Keith Edwards]

Because the party moved towards Trump.

[Van Lathan]

The party moved towards Trump. She moved further to the right to, like, completely align herself and then hitched her wagon to his power all the way. Thought he would pay it back. He did not pay it back. And she's not running. She's not. Not running for Senate. She's not running for her seat in Congress again. Which she would surely win. Right. Which she would surely win. So she's not. Not running because she's polarizing. She's not running because she no longer has the support of the big dog in her party, the guy who you have to glaze. Now, when we talk about polarizing for Jasmine Crockett, she was called a Shaniqua.

[Keith Edwards]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

She's called ghetto. She's called low iq. So the polarization around Jasmine Crockett is an identity.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

It's not like Jasmine Crockett is not being called polarizing right now Because Jasmine Crockett believes that there are space lasers on the moon.

[Keith Edwards]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

She's not being called. She's not polarizing because she's an anti vax person. She's not polarizing. She's polarizing because people don't like that version of black woman speaking too loud. And if that could be. I'm not saying that that's not a political fact. I'm not saying that that's not a reality. But in argument with us, we're gonna reject that. And if we don't re. Even if we. Even if we. Even if it doesn't make sense to reject it politically, we have to talk about why we need to reject it. And I think the most interesting thing from the conversation is that there's an expectation. And once again, we gotta talk about it. There's an expectation that we won't be protectionists around the greatest resource that we have in our community, which are black ladies. We're going to be. So if you want to have the conversation, I think we probably have to get out of our feelings a little bit to have the conversation, Particularly when it's all around politics. But I'm going to challenge you and Bowen and everybody else to you talked about your heroin journey as a white man. I'm going to challenge you guys also to consider that this woman was called a Shaniqua and she was called ghetto and she was called dumb. And that we might be a little touchy around somebody being called that. That look like your mama just a little bit. So let's all bring the temperature down. Let's have the conversation. Let's get there. But let's not, like, run into any corners and wait for any bells to have any fights. I don't mind having this conversation. I think you're having it in good faith. I think you feel attacked. I think any human being in that situation would feel attacked. I think any human being that's saying, hey, I'm just talking about politics. I do feel like Jasmine Crockett doesn't share my politics at all. I'm a fucking pinko communist, so she doesn't share my politics at all. But I mean, if there is some talk about whether or not you can authentically and directly defend yourself from what you feel like are attacks, then we're gonna have a conversation that to me is a little bit more murkier. Cause it looks like we all lying just so that we could get famous or have conversations or compel you to come on the show.

[Keith Edwards]

Sure.

[Van Lathan]

Which we've enjoyed.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, that's. And which I feel like you said you didn't realize that. And I think that the big takeaway is when you talked about the sensitivity maybe that surrounds it. And I think the big takeaway is we should be able to be critical. We, it's not healthy for the party if we cannot be honest in our critiques. However, there is a sensitivity that exists. And I think the step to getting there is to acknowledging it, which I feel like we got there. And then we have a better understanding each other to hopefully move forward to get the right person in office and to turn Texas blue.

[Keith Edwards]

And yes, I just want to, like, we like Democrats. I think this, I think this is like, I think this is a good conversation to have because this isn't going to be a new idea. I think this is not. This is. No, but this is like, this is our primary. Yeah, but this is, this is going to be a problem. Like, we have to be like. I personally believe fascism is here. I don't think it's like, at the door. I think it's here. It's here. ICE is just taking people out of their homes. I don't even know if Donald Trump's gonna, like, leave power.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right.

[Keith Edwards]

You know, and so we, there has to be a sense of, like, coalition. And, and I think the Internet is set up in such a way with oligarch, like the way the oligarchs have set up where they want us to be as divisive and divided as possible. And so, you know, I, I, I do think that we have to, there has to be a sense of coalition of all types of people. The most, most, you know, the, the reddest of the red if they're on our side for democracy. And then, you know. What would you call yourself a communist?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It changes every week.

[Keith Edwards]

Okay?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It changes.

[Keith Edwards]

We need everyone.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's new. He had said that one before. To a goddamn commune.

[Van Lathan]

Hey. Hey, Keith. How's this sound? You want Me to scare you? Yeah, I'll scare you. Let's make the tax rate 90% on anything over $3 million. Let's do it I don't give a what any of this like it but so what I'm saying is all all.

[Keith Edwards]

Of these people to me should try yeah run on that.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah well run on it I tell you what in the 50s when like that was the tax that's with things were compressed and things people were doing better but not we running so I'll say this I think this is a good conversation I once again the only thing I want to do is in coalition building I think the most important thing seriously I'm very verbose I know that you've probably been frustrated by that in coalition building the most important thing to me is conversation. I really appreciate you having this conversation I really appreciate having a conversation with anyone I do think we need to toughen up but I'll say this last thing I'll say to you I'll give you the last word when you talked about the reddest of the red a second ago the reddest of the red person. Do you know who the bluest of the blue person is?

[Keith Edwards]

I'm going to assume black women is what you're going to say don't get no bluer.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah don't get no blue.

[Keith Edwards]

92% 92% don't get no bluer.

[Van Lathan]

I watched I saw a poll and the poll was of all the different sports leagues and how those sports leagues vote based upon voter registration whether or not they're we lose the mlb. Psst. That's the proud boys right. Football not commiserate with the amount of do you know what the bluest sports league is? Can you guess?

[Keith Edwards]

I don't even know sports league wnba.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know it's the wnba. Now why would the WNBA be the Blues? Because it's a bunch of sisters running around shooting basketballs and occasionally kissing each other so look.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you Keith. Let's wrap him up. Thank you. No seriously thank no, I really do.

[Keith Edwards]

I hope this was helpful. I don't know I hope it was helpful.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think this is what we should be doing and I hope you come back next time you're in in LA or we're a van's in New York now like when we're in New York but I think we need more of this it's the same thing that I was talking to Matt about so I hope you know maybe we'll get him on here to talk too but we. We need to do. People need to see this. Who is Matt Rogers?

[Van Lathan]

Oh.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you, Keith.

[Keith Edwards]

Thank you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Tell everybody where they can find you. Tell everybody where they can find you.

[Keith Edwards]

Not threads. Don't go on thread. Don't go on threads, Keith.

[Van Lathan]

Oh. Oh, I have. You know what? Before Keith goes. I'm very interested. Just so everyone knows. I'm very interested in watching. I almost want to check back in with you, Keith. I'm very interested in watching this debate next week.

[Keith Edwards]

I was gonna live stream it. I was gonna live stream it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, Keith. I would be interested in coming on the live stream.

[Keith Edwards]

All right.

[Van Lathan]

I would be interested in coming on a live stream.

[Keith Edwards]

We do that.

[Van Lathan]

We do a whole Ebony, Ivory. We can be the change we want to see. We can do it. We could be the change.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Now he is not kidding.

[Van Lathan]

I like inciting people. I like.

[Keith Edwards]

Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it.

[Van Lathan]

Let's do it. I'm into. Like, we do it. You know what I mean? Huh?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's Saturday. Okay. I was like, is it Saturday or Sunday?

[Van Lathan]

All right, it's a Saturday.

[Keith Edwards]

All right, Saturday. Great.

[Van Lathan]

Keith, we really appreciate you, man.

[Keith Edwards]

Thank you so much.

[Van Lathan]

All right, we're done. There's something else I wanted to mention before we left, just real quick.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Of course. One last thing.

[Van Lathan]

One last thing. There's something else I wanted to mention. A lot of Sigma's reached out to me. They're furious, but we'll ignore that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

General consensus is that they either want you to stay as far away as possible from the D9 or Sigma.

[Van Lathan]

I'm into it. It's funny the way y' all treat the Sigmas, man. No, and by the.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, you do that.

[Van Lathan]

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Oh, let me tell you what, what this guy told me. There's a couple of Sigmas that actually told me this. I wonder what this. The one of my homeboys that I knew that I know. Great guy. He's actually a preacher now. He reached out to me and he told me that you dissing the Sigmas, you took it as a dissatisfaction. Okay. That it. And I had actually forgot about this. The way we got on all of this stuff was that I would tease you about Kamala Harris being.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Get into the White House first.

[Van Lathan]

Being on the White House first. And then you would say, oh, there's no competition. It's all D9. We're all together. And I would be like, I know that's not true.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

And then we started having more conversations, and I'll be like, oh, I know a little something about the culture of that whole thing, not the individual organizations. And you would be like, no, we all root for each other. And he goes. He said to me, he says, it's interesting that she actually gave validation to you saying that there's a hierarchy in those organizations. I did see that by using the fact that you are a Sigma, that I would be a Sigma as a dis.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's how he took it.

[Van Lathan]

He took it that way. He said, because you used it. He also said, really? He said, the Sigmas are the cradle of the D9 because they prop their sisters up. They put their sisters in their constitution. They build community with black women. They are the cradle. He said, the cradle. He was giving a sermon to me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's the problem.

[Van Lathan]

And I was like. I was like, hey, I gotta go. He was giving a sermon to me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's the problem.

[Van Lathan]

Cradle of the Dina.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's the problem. So you said, he's a pastor, Reverend Sigma.

[Van Lathan]

He's a pastor reverend.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He the problem. The problem. And this is why people get onto Sigmas. It was not a diss. I said, I dated a Sigma. I had a lot of women reach out to me who had similar experiences. The problem is it's like a hit dog holler situation. Y' all always feel like y' all gotta be on the defense. I didn't say it was a diss. You always feel like you gotta be defending yourself. Omegas and Kappas and Alphas aren't doing all of that.

[Van Lathan]

This nigga gonna be so mad.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, you should have told the story.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They're always on the defense. Like, just. Just be in it. It's cool. Like when we used to have. I can't remember what chapter they were from. Obviously it was in Texas. So we would have our step shows. One of the best step shows would be from the Sigmas. I cannot remember what chapter they were from. They were incredible. They were winning all the time. Why y' all gotta be home? Why do y' all do that to themselves? You make it easy. Yourselves an easy target. Stop, Stop.

[Van Lathan]

There you have it. You have a better. Do you have a better feeling about Keith?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I do. I feel like we all have a better understanding of each other.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that it was a good conversation, and I'm into more conversations like this. I'm not as an essentialist when it comes to race and politics. I am an essentialist when it comes to race and humanity. I think that I probably always be when it comes to race and politics, you just simply cannot put yourself in a situation where you allow identity to be the handcuffing factor with you. To a politician, you can't do it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You'll always be disappointed.

[Van Lathan]

Well, that's very true. But also, politics is such a game at the margins that any commonality that you have with someone who seeks power, if you live in that commonality, they might just exploit it, even if they do it on accident. I'm not saying that they necessarily do it on purpose. Anytime you ask. Sometimes you ask these politicians questions and they go. Before they answer the substance of the question, they go, listen, I'm the son of a single mother. I'm the son of a single mother that woke up every single day and worked 17 hours to provide for us in a diner, little diner right outside Cleveland, okay? And I watched this woman wake up every single day and provide for me. So when I vote against minimum wage, it's not because I don't respect people like her. It's because I understand that we have fiscal responsibility. I would never vote against someone like my mother. I've done it for 15 years. But it's not because I don't respect people like her. It's because I see the big picture. And the big picture is, what is Exxon supposed to do?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let's go.

[Van Lathan]

Take it that you caps off, but do not stop learning a bad life insurance.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.