Paying Teachers, Missing White Women Syndrome, and Pool Party Foul

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Paying Teachers, Missing White Women Syndrome, and Pool Party Foul
Date: May 2, 2025
Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

This episode of Higher Learning dives into three major topics: the gutting of the Department of Education and how it affects teachers (featuring former Secretary of Education John King Jr.), “Missing White Women Syndrome” in true crime media (with filmmaker Lisa Cortez), and a viral pool party incident that sparks a conversation on respect, attention-seeking, and gender dynamics. Hosts Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay also tackle recent political events, internal dynamics in the Trump administration, controversy in NBA celebrations, and the persistent gender and racial stereotypes affecting culture, sports, and media.

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Quick Hitters & Cultural Commentary

Trump’s First 100 Days and Cabinet Dysfunction

• [04:20 – 10:59]
• The hosts react to audio of Trump’s Cabinet lavishly praising him, with Van ridiculing the performative loyalty:
  • Van Lathan [06:23]: “There’s a blowbang where everybody lines up to suck the dick of one person. And that’s essentially what happened here at this cabinet meeting.”
• Discussion shifts to media infighting and dysfunction in Trump’s administration. Rachel points out that staff turnover and infighting has become performative, showing more about internal loyalty than serving the public.
  • Van Lathan [09:39]: “This administration is different… The goal is to have loyalists that won’t question him… Does that signal anything to the American people? I’m not so sure that it does.”

Stephen A. Smith, Trump, and “The Weave”

• [11:13 – 14:36]
• Trump’s habit of dodging questions is mocked after a disjointed exchange with Stephen A. Smith, conflating “Harvard” with “Harlem.”
  • Van Lathan [12:15]: “What the fuck is that nigga talking about?”
  • Rachel Lindsay [13:08]: “How do you not have a follow up question or just even correct or say, wait, wait, wait, why are we talking about Harlem? The question was about Harvard.”
• The hosts riff on Trump’s rhetorical misdirection—“the weave.”

Paul Pierce and “Black Men/White Women” Narratives

• [15:41 – 27:55]
• Discussion of Paul Pierce’s comments on NBA players dating white women, and the backlash Rachel often faces when joking or criticizing Black men on the show.
  • They address the double standard and sensitivity around criticisms between Black men and women, with Rachel reflecting on her own history and intent.
  • Rachel Lindsay [19:57]: “I am at fault at times... for generalizing, so I get that. But...I have a love for black men. ...I care more about black men more than I care about talking about other races.”
  • Van Lathan [23:35]: “Is it okay for black men to get their feelings hurt when black women are specifically leveling criticisms?...”
• Strong emphasis that context and relationships matter in these conversations.

Terrence Howard, Homophobia, and Black Masculinity

• [29:40 – 35:43]
• Terrence Howard’s comments about refusing to kiss a man onscreen and discussing Marvin Gaye’s rumored sexuality are criticized.
  • Rachel Lindsay [32:19]: “To then follow that up with, I would rip my lips off...Screams homophobia.”
  • Van Lathan [33:41]: “It’s homophobic to draw the line there...when you gotta double, triple down on it...it’s destructive and dangerous to me.”
• They discuss broader issues of homophobia and representation in the Black community and in Hollywood.

NBA Playoffs: Giannis, John Halliburton, and Fatherly Fights

• [36:17 – 45:08]
• John Halliburton (Tyrese Halliburton’s father) gets into a courtside confrontation with Giannis Antetokounmpo after a playoff win.
  • Van and Rachel humorously debate if a father like Halliburton (or their own) could beat an NBA player in a fight, with Van sharing stories about cross-cultural male camaraderie.
  • Van Lathan [40:30]: “I'm saying...everybody out there always assumes that the NBA player, the athlete is just gonna run through somebody...My daddy at 62 will wash Giannis straight up.”

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Pool Party Foul Discussion

The Viral Pool Incident

• [48:07 – 55:14]
• Van plays a video of a man trying to “playfully” throw a woman into a pool, dropping her painfully instead.
  • Van Lathan [51:20]: “He overestimated his physical strength...his importance...and his utility in that party. No one came to see you, Otis. We came for the ass.”
• The hosts use the incident to discuss party behavior, boundaries, and the tendency of some men to make themselves the center of attention at the expense of women’s safety and fun.
• Van laments the “OG crisis”—too few older role models teaching young men appropriate behavior.

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Featured Interviews

1. John King Jr. – On Teacher Pay and the Department of Education

• [57:29 – 84:34]
• King, former Secretary of Education, discusses the Trump administration’s deep cuts and attempts to gut the Department of Education:
  • Half the staff is gone; critical functions like financial aid, civil rights enforcement, and transparency are being undermined.
  • John King Jr. [58:44]: “Education is a national imperative, and this is going to be very damaging.”
• He warns the damage is already being felt, especially by vulnerable students.
• On the motivation: a mix of anti-government philosophy and opposition to civil rights-era gains.
  • John King Jr. [61:03]: “There really is this effort to try to roll back many of the achievements of the civil rights movement.”
• Outcomes include teacher layoffs, harder access to financial aid, and a chilling effect on fair treatment in schools.
• On teacher shortages/exodus: States must compensate for lost federal funding, and communities need to lift up teachers—beyond symbolic gestures to voting and advocacy for better pay.
  • John King Jr. [67:00]: “Teachers are the engine of social mobility. It’s the reason that there is the American dream...”
• Van raises Black male literacy, and King details how instructional gaps in early phonics and science of reading disproportionately impact Black boys.
  • King highlights Mississippi as a model for improvement, citing their “science of reading”-driven reform.
• Rachel Lindsay [81:02] asks about fair teacher compensation; King says state legislatures and loan forgiveness can be crucial levers.
• Van proposes radical tax breaks for teachers as public servants, sparking a light-hearted debate.

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2. Lisa Cortez – “Murder Has Two Faces” and Missing White Women Syndrome

• [86:13 – 97:59]
• Emmy-winning director Lisa Cortez introduces her Hulu docu-series exposing the true stories of women of color whose murders received far less attention than comparable white victims.
  • Lisa Cortez [87:20]: “There are parallel stories of women of color that we never hear about… These stories did not get any visibility.”
• Cortez and Rachel discuss their careful interviews with affected families, police, and journalists. In some cases, law enforcement remain silent or protective of colleagues’ past failures.
  • Lisa Cortez [91:15]: “There is a fraternity there. So they’re never going to say, oh, that person did it the wrong way.”
• On Missing White Women Syndrome, Cortez outlines how race, socioeconomic status, and family resources determine media and police response:
  • Lisa Cortez [92:46]: “It is about the inordinate visibility and compassion that is given to missing white women that is not afforded to women of color.”
  • Example: Lacey Peterson vs. Evelyn Hernandez, two pregnant women found in the same bay, with only Peterson receiving national attention.
• The series aims to humanize the lost, critique the system, and spark a call to action.

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Additional Notable Quotes & Moments

• Van Lathan [07:44]: “I want you guys to be as disgusted as me.”
• Rachel Lindsay [79:57] (about maker teachers): “They can give you a sense of possibility and expose you to things you never otherwise would have considered.”
• Van Lathan [51:20]: “No one came to see you. Otis, we had a pool party. We came for the ass.”

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Tone and Vibe

The show is a lively, humorous, sometimes profane but always sharp engagement with Black culture, politics, current events, and gender dynamics. Van and Rachel’s banter is both playful and reflective, offering both personal insight and cultural critique. They are candid about double standards, resentments, and the responsibilities that come with being public voices within their community.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:48 Van & Rachel open; boxing, Derek James in studio
• 04:20 Trump’s 100 days/Cabinet meeting; “political blowbang” commentary
• 11:13 Trump/Stephen A. Smith “Harvard/Harlem” confusion
• 15:41 Paul Pierce’s comments/NBA dating, Black men/white women discourse
• 29:40 Terrence Howard, homophobia panel
• 36:17 Giannis, John Halliburton NBA courtside confrontation
• 48:07 Viral pool party foul, party dynamics
• 57:29 Interview with John King Jr. (Teacher pay, Dept. of Ed, literacy)
• 86:13 Interview with Lisa Cortez (“Murder Has Two Faces,” media bias)
• 98:03 Derek James on boxing, trainers, and Oak Cliff legacy

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Episode Takeaways

• The Trump administration’s moves against the Department of Education have serious, real-world consequences for teachers, students, and the nation’s broader progress on civil rights.
• Cultural narratives about gender and race—whether in sports, media, or parties—are fraught, often hypocritical, and demand constant, honest dialogue.
• Media and systemic racism continues to shape whose stories are told and which communities receive justice and compassion.
• Valuing teachers and reforming education at the local and federal level is a generational imperative.
• Even the most viral party foul can become a teachable moment about respect, attention-seeking, and male privilege.

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Notable Guests:

• John King Jr. (former Secretary of Education)
• Lisa Cortez (Emmy-winning director, “Murder Has Two Faces”)
• Derrick James (Four-time Boxing Trainer of the Year)

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This episode stands out for its frank discussion of hard problems—education, media bias, gender relations—blending humor and gravity, and calling listeners to reflect and act, especially in voting, advocacy, and supporting marginalized communities.

Transcript

[Van Lathan]

This episode of Higher Learning is brought to you by mgm. If you love high stakes drama, Godfather of Harlem delivers.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I can't wait to see it. I know it has Academy Award winner Forest Whitaker. He returns as Bumpy Johnson, facing his deadliest battles yet for Harlem's future. When ruthless newcomer Frank Lucas arrives, everything.

[Van Lathan]

Changes as power shifts and new threats emerge. Will Bumpy forge an uneasy alliance with his enemies? Or will he stand tall as the undisputed Godfather of Harlem?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, you can find out in the new season of Godfather of Harlem, new episodes streaming Sundays on mgm.

[Van Lathan]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors, what is up? Higher Learning is on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It is Ivan Lazy Jr. And it's me, Rachel Lynn. Lindsay.

[Van Lathan]

What's your name, my brother? We're here with Ronnie, Ronnie, Ronick. Ronick is. I'm in New York and Ronic is with me on the ones and twos producing over here. Okay. Donnie Ashley. Ronick. Thank you, Ronick, for helping us out in the back there. Some boxing people are going to notice this guy in the back. He's hanging out. That is four time trainer of the year, Derrick James. Rachel. Okay, right back there, the trainer of such greats as the charlos champions at 154. At 160, Errol Spence, who was a unified champion at 147. Four time trainer of the year, Derrick James. There's a huge card happening tomorrow in New York City. When I say a huge card, I'm talking about Roly Romero's on the card. Ryan Garcia's on the card. Devin Haney's on the card. Teofimo Lopez was on the card. Big card. I'm not gonna be able to see it. Cause I'm gonna be doing cnn. But I hooked up with Derek out here. Derek came to chill for a little bit. He's a Texas guy. Rachel, Derek, where are you from? To get Texas.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Where is he from in Dallas? He's from Dallas. Where's he from in Dallas?

[Van Lathan]

Where are you from in Dallas? Rachel says Derek, he's from Oak Cliff. That's where Rachel's from. Oak Cliff, Yeah, she from Oak Cliff. She ain't got no hands though. There was this girl that was.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That is not true. Stop.

[Van Lathan]

Named Hannah B. Back in the day. And Rachel really bothered.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's not true.

[Van Lathan]

Whatever. I'm sure I've been doing my thing for a while.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Has Derek trained you?

[Van Lathan]

No, Derek has not trained me. Not quite yet. But we're, you know, we're going to see if maybe. You know what I mean, give us a lesson, smooth out some of the rough edges. Ah, ah, ah. See what's up? You know what I mean? This episode is brought to you by Hyundai, who says you can't be the topic of conversation for all the right reasons. The Hyundai Tucson hybrid pairs bold presence with advanced technology and sleek style. It's everything you didn't know you needed in an SUV and then some. Okay, Hyundai. Visit Hyundai USA.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by Universal Pictures. Would you sell your soul for greatness? What would you be willing to sacrifice? Find out on September 19th in the new Jordan Peele produced horror film Him Only in theaters. Starring Marlon Wayans as the greatest football player of all time and Tariq Withers as his upand coming protege. Directed by Justin Tipping and produced by Monkeypaw Productions, Never Meet yout Idols, him hits theaters September 19th. We got a big show. Look, we gotta start with the quick hitters because there's a lot going on. By the way, that's a Ring magazine card tomorrow. I'm just. We're not getting paid in any way, shape or form. By the way, Derek's here, so I'm just. You know, he's training Ryan Garcia, who is also kind of off his fucking rocker, Derek. You have to admit that. Okay, it's kind of fucking crazy, but we'll see how that fight goes tomorrow. Lots of high leverage boxing, but there's also a lot of high leverage stuff happening in the quick hitters. Donnie, get into our quick hitters.

[John King Jr.]

Trump has passed a major milestone his first hundred days in office. Let's just check in with the Cabinet and hear how he celebrated the occasion.

[Van Lathan]

He's actually doing the things that he.

[John King Jr.]

Promised that he would do. And, Mr. President, it's been an honor to be part of it for the past 100 days. Mr. President, the last four years, the world experienced a total lack of zero leadership under Biden.

[Van Lathan]

And then we've had 100 days of your leadership.

[John King Jr.]

With respect, with strength, Ms. President, your.

[Rachel Lindsay]

First 100 days has far exceeded that of any other presidency in this country ever. Ever. Never seen anything like it. Thank you.

[Van Lathan]

President Trump, in your first term, when.

[John King Jr.]

I had a chance to work with.

[Van Lathan]

You as governor, you were courageous. The thing that's empowering this amazing group of people around this table, and you've probably assembled the greatest cabinet ever, is that this time you're not just courageous, you're actually fearless.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I've never wanted to hear Glaze of the week, the song more.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, you're a hater of the song.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I never wanted to hear it so much. No, I'm not.

[Van Lathan]

You're a hater of the song. It's okay. The song is catching on and everybody loves it. All right, but this is what I'll say. We can't use this as glaze of the week. Glaze of the week is a Monday thing. Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Wow. You might have to make some exceptions.

[Van Lathan]

We might have to. Because this week, this was one of the biggest glazing weeks that we've ever seen.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

And. Cause Lindsey Graham, we haven't even talked about that. We're not even gonna get to it. We might even save that for Monday. I'm not sure what's gonna end up being glaze of the week. I will say this, though. I've seen this before. Rachel, are you familiar with what a blowbang is? Oh, no.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is this one of those things I have to Google again? No.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, look that up, Rachel. Look it up right now. Look up. Look up. I want everybody that's on the podcast right now. Everyone that's at home, look up what a blowbang is. Look up what a blowbang, Donnie, look up blowbang.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, my God.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, you see what it is. Everyone at home, look up blowbang right now. Look up what that is. Do you guys know what that is?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why do you know so many of these terms?

[Van Lathan]

You know why? And I'm not gonna lie.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The first thing that popped up. The first thing that popped up was blowbang. Pornhub. Right?

[Van Lathan]

So you guys all know what that is. You guys, now you know what it is. That's what happened. You guys have heard of a gang bang before. There's an inverse to that. There's a blowbang where everybody lines up to suck the dick of one person. And that's essentially what happened here at this cabinet meeting. Trump arranged a blow bang for himself, and I hope that he's been taking his vitamins, and he had enough stored up in himself to glaze everyone that wanted to step up and be glazed there. That was a political blowbang. And if I'm asked to buy it on CNN tonight, I will say.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are you going to say this if.

[Van Lathan]

I'm asked about it on CNN tonight? I will say it. That was disgusting.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, you know that's gonna be your last day of cnn, right?

[Van Lathan]

Whatever. It'll eventually happen.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That was disgusting. And your comparison was disgusting. It was disgusting to watch, especially as they gathered around the table in front of Gulf of America hats. Did you see that? Everybody had a Gulf of America hat in front of them. It's disgusting. But so was that. Because now we have a visual.

[Van Lathan]

And you guys, I want you guys to be as disgusted as me. Donnie, next.

[John King Jr.]

All right, well, the second voice that we heard in that compilation, that was Mike Waltz. That compilation, compilation was Mike Waltz Compilation. Mike Waltz.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Focus. Focus, Dottie, Focus.

[John King Jr.]

His Blowbank participation, I think, didn't save his job. It looks like he's ousted from the White House as the national security advisor. That's according to reports from Politico and a couple of other sources. He added the journalists to that Signal chat, disclosing some military plans. Mike Waltz out.

[Van Lathan]

It seems like. It seems like if you're Pete Hexseth, who is also embattled, who's having all kinds of problems with Signal, you probably feel like you're a little safer right now. Or maybe the question is, is Hekseth a little safer now that it seems like Waltz is on the way out? It seems like this was going to be the guy that they wanted to go. There's been some talk of infighting within Trump world regarding Waltz and whether or not he's well liked by people as well. So the first one is out.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, somebody had to take the fall for what happened. And I think Mike Waltz doing a media tour saying that he's going to do an investigation to understand how the number just appeared in his phone. You know, the lies that he was telling. You pointed out that, you know, Laura Ingram was questioning it. You know, you even had, like, the far right media questioning the way that he was doing it. Somebody had to go, it was gonna be him. I think that if Pete Hegseth continues to keep getting such bad media, he could be, you know, like, there's the media report that he put up a makeup room in the Pentagon that cost a lot of money, that he had another Signal chat where he had family members in with sensitive. I think if that continues, then we could see exhaust fall as well.

[Van Lathan]

The question is, does this dysfunction in the administration matter to people? In Trump's first administration, it became indicative of a vacuum of leadership at the top and the fact that maybe he didn't know what he was doing. This administration is different insofar as we know what the goal is. We know that the goal of the subordinates and people around him is that Cabinet meeting. The goal is to have loyalists that are that close to the president that won't question him or push back on his agenda or his shredding of political norms in any way. So the question then becomes, when you get rid of these people who are essentially lemmings does that signal anything to the American people? And I'm not so sure that it does.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It doesn't. I don't think it does.

[Van Lathan]

Well, hold on. Not to the American people, because Trump's polling is in a shit box right now. Okay. But to the MAGA world, loyals. But we should say that Trump's polling even amongst people who. Demographics should I say that voted for him just months ago. The polling is in the shit box, the box of shit right now. Donnie.

[John King Jr.]

Trump also celebrated his 100 days in office with a town hall with News Nation that featured panelists like Chris Cuomo, Bill O'Reilly, and Stephen A. Smith, who asked Trump a question, and this was Trump's answer to that question.

[Van Lathan]

Mr. President, thank you for your time. And it's interesting that you brought up Harvard, because when people think about Harvard, what they're basically talking about is they're asking, what do you say to those who view your actions as an attack on academic freedom rather than a defense of fairness? What do you say to that? Well, I say this. We had riots in Harlem. In Harlem. And frankly, if you look at what's gone on and people from Harlem went up and they protested, Stephen, and they protested very strongly against Harvard. They happen to be on my side. You know, I got a very high black vote vote.

[John King Jr.]

You know that very, very high black vote.

[Van Lathan]

It was a very great compliment to me. I did criminal justice reform. I did opportunity zones for one of the greatest economic deals ever for the black and Hispanic community. I got tremendous. They agree with what I'm doing with respect to Harvard. I'm sorry, that's funny. What the fuck is that nigga talking about?

[Rachel Lindsay]

What did Trump used to call what he does?

[Van Lathan]

The weave.

[Rachel Lindsay]

When he. The weave.

[Lisa Cortez]

The weave.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That was. I feel like I haven't seen the weave in a while. That was a weave. That was a weave.

[Van Lathan]

And shout out to Stephen A. Smith, who just didn't know what was happening in that moment. I feel like Stephen A. Smith was overwhelmed by the randomness of Trump.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I guess I'm just. I can't be like, shout out to Stephen A. Smith in that moment. How do you not have a follow up question or just even correct or say, wait, wait, wait, wait, why are we talking about Harlem? The question was about Harvard. Just that simple. Because in that clip, Cuomo makes a face like his eyes buck, like, what the fuck? And Stephen A. Sat there with a straight face and literally kind of co signed it. When he says yes, when he's like, I had the highest black vote and he's like, compared to others or compared to the past. Yes. I don't know if Stephen A. Smith checked out. I don't know if he thought he said Harvard when he said Harlem. But I can't give him a shout out because he simply should have followed up with why are we talking about this? When the question was this.

[Van Lathan]

I have a habit of saying shout out. I think that's really what it gets down to right there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, okay.

[Van Lathan]

But I will say this. The weave will get you because if you've ever been talking to people, it will. I'm serious. If you've ever been talking to someone and you ask them a question and they go off, which I tend to do sometimes they go off on a million different things. You'll get caught up in actually trying to understand them and you'll forget what the genesis of the conversation was. You'll forget like, what the hell? What were we talking about?

[Rachel Lindsay]

So the weed will get you.

[Van Lathan]

I'm sure that you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But you make sense, though. Can I? In your defense, you make sense. You might like you're long winded, but it makes sense. You're not throwing, you're not weaving.

[Van Lathan]

Not all the time.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What?

[Van Lathan]

Not all the time.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're not a Trump. You're not a Trump. I'm sorry, Please do not compare. Please don't do that.

[Van Lathan]

The weave will get you, the people get you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Cause you just have your own thoughts.

[Van Lathan]

About this pairing of the corpse of Bill O'Reilly, what's left over Chris Cuomo and Stephen A. Smith. As a news nation town hall, I'm not so sure, like, what we're doing, what's happening, Ratings?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I guess so.

[Van Lathan]

I guess I don't, you know, I have my own thoughts about that. And Trump was very, I saw another clip where Trump was very conciliatory and complimentary to Stephen A. Smith, and it looked like Stephen A. Blushed a little bit. So I don't know what purpose that's serving. But look, everybody's got a platform and who am I to criticize somebody else's? But I don't know if you're going to have them on there. If you're going to talk to the president, that goes for anyone that's going to talk to the president. It seems like you should use your time wisely to get him to answer a question. But he's been doing that to journalists for 20 years now. Donnie, last quick hitter. Last one is, why not be such a quick hit?

[John King Jr.]

Let's see how fast we can get through this. Paul Pierce, he Was on the Truth After Dark podcast where he had this to say about NBA players and their dating preferences.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why do you feel like men, especially NBA players, get with the white women? Is it cause they're easy?

[John King Jr.]

Quote, unquote.

[Van Lathan]

I got some theories, but I really want to hear it from him.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I do, too. I want to hear it, too.

[Van Lathan]

I honestly think that maybe they appreciate maybe more and they apologize more.

[John King Jr.]

Listen, I'm scared. Hold on.

[Van Lathan]

No, hold on. I mean, you know, I had an interview with nothing. Oh, don't mind being held accountable.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm so scared of this, y', all, because I had an interview with Columbus Shore and I asked him this similar question, and he said something, and I got dragged for fail. I was on Breakfast Club. I was on Shade Room. I had death threats for so long from black women because they said. I laughed when he said that. So let me not laugh.

[Van Lathan]

I don't have nothing to do with this. I mean, that's what I think. Rachel seems to be a direct criticism of black women.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I have nothing to say.

[Van Lathan]

You have nothing to say?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm done.

[Van Lathan]

We talked about this. Me and Rachel talked about something yesterday. I got a lot of calls this week Got a lot of calls this week from brothers. You hurt their feelings, Rachel. I think for the first time, you hurt the brothers feelings. Because we were having a conversation about the gorilla attack. And it was a fun, lighthearted. I didn't even notice it in the.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Moment because we were having fun.

[Van Lathan]

A fun, lighthearted, in the moment conversation about my amazing plan to beat the gorilla, right? And out of nowhere, there were some black men that felt like you just used it as an excuse to kick black men in their nuts for no reason. People hit me up like, bro, is that shit about Rachel? Is it true what they say? And now you have.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And what is it and what is it they say?

[Van Lathan]

They say that. So this is why we talking about this. So this is what I think is that. I think, personally, the way I look at this, if you have specific criticisms about black women, to me, that is an indication of fuckness. The moment that someone goes, ah, Black women this, black women that, I start to kind of go, okay, well, I kind of know what this guy is right now. I will give what I feel like are criticisms of women or observations about women. Because I think that women are socialized in a way, just like men are socialized in a way. And if women are socialized in a way, there are probably common threads between them. And we can talk about those things or we can talk about Things that are maybe a little bit more natural to the way men and women get on. I think that there are things that you could talk about and examine about men. There are things you can talk about and examine about women. But when you single out black women, like seems to be done in this clip, it becomes an issue for me because I think that, that black women are beat up on a lot. However, it does not seem like, and I'm talking about beyond the really serious issues, it does not seem like to a lot of black men, doesn't bother me that much. Through the podcast all the time we joke about it, but to a lot of black men, it seems like they feel like, should I say that people just don't have a problem kicking them in their balls and they nuts and they're open assholes all the time. When we weren't even talking about something like that. And it seemed like if the shoe was on the other foot, if I was on here all the time talking specifically about black women, that I would be looked at like, Paul Pierce is probably looked at right now as a fuck nigga. But it's not the same on the other side.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So I wish we could do, we could dissect past podcasts about how many times we're dealing, the topic has to deal with or the topic, because we choose the topics. A topic that we're talking about that deals with the black man that said or did something stupid compared to a black woman. And I'm saying that to say not because that's what happens generally. It's just the topics that we talk about. I'm saying that because we talk a lot about topics where, give Paul Pierce as an example where a black man said or did something and we have to give an opinion about it. I am at fault at times on this podcast for generalizing, so I get that. But I also think for the calls that you got, a lot of people I think are, it's like the low hanging fruit. It's easy to be like, oh, Rachel's very anti black man. Because the way I met her was on a white TV show where she went on the Bachelor and he was white. And then she became the Bachelorette and she picked somebody who wasn't black white. And so it's like, well, then Rachel, every time I've seen Rachel date a man, he doesn't look like us. So then when Rachel offers criticism or an opinion that isn't positive about the subject matter, being a black man, which happens a lot on this podcast, it's, oh, Rachel has an issue with black men. Obviously not true. But I could say that at times I'm at fault for generalizing or even making jokes or poking. Well, that's black men. Because a lot of times on the podcast, we do talk about black men, but it doesn't mean that I don't have a love for black men. I think I also. If you read my book, just not to plug my book in, you will know that I have a past. You will know that I have a past of my whole past. Is black men. First time people met me is with white men. Black men are very important in my life. My best straight male friends are black. My best gay friends are black. My dad is black. My coworker that I podcast with is black. Everybody I dated except for the two guys on the show are black. So a part. What did she say, nigs? So a part of me talking about black men also is because I have a love for black men. I'm more connected to black men. I care more about black men more than I care about talking about as much as I. I care more about talking about black men more than I care about talking about other races. Not just saying just because I'm more connected. It's also a culture show. So my point being is, I think, dare I say, I think some people are a little sensitive or hypersensitive that they feel that black men are under attack. And I think that also goes in to the opinions that they have. And I think. I don't even think it's just black men. I think it's just men in general. You know, call it people not honoring the patriarchy in the way that they used to call it. Women have more of a voice. They are more independent. They make more money. They're not willing to play the game necessarily the way that they used to. And they're more vocal and. And not as tolerant as they were with men now, as they were in the past. And so I think men are a little bit like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Why are women or people coming after us? Because that's not how people used to talk about men in general.

[Van Lathan]

I guess I'll ask a very simple question. Is it okay for black men to get their feelings hurt?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

When black women are specifically leveling criticisms or opinions, negative opinions about them. Or is it just black men's job to fix themselves so that those opinions or criticisms don't ring true?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no. They absolutely have the right to get their feelings hurt. And what I would say is, if I hurt your feelings, tell me and let me explain what I meant. Or give me the opportunity to say, I apologize, or that's not what I meant. Absolutely. They are entitled to feel a certain way about things black women say or things that I say. All I say is give me the benefit of the doubt or give me the time and the space to explain myself. What I don't think is fair is what I think a lot of people. Not saying people who called you, but a lot of people do for me is, oh, she dates white. She don't fuck with us anyway. That's not true. And that's not true.

[Van Lathan]

Here's what I'll say. Two things I'll say, and we can move on. One thing is this. If something doesn't hurt my feelings, then it doesn't hurt my feelings. I don't know what y' all want me to do. Like, it didn't. It didn't. It didn't fucking bother me. Like, we was clowning and having fun, and it didn't bother me. So to y', all that's out there, that's like, van, you gotta. If it don't bother me, then it don't bother me. And I don't know why it doesn't bother me. Maybe because these. Because you know me, are the ladies that I talk to all the time. So, you know, and I'm, you know, maybe I'm. Maybe they've broken me. But.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, you don't. Please don't say that. But you know me. So you're adding context to it. I'm dating a black man. I showed him that whole clip. He laughs. He thought it was funny. Because he knows that I'm not serious. I'm making a joke. I mean, like, it's. I now know that people think that I'm, like, against black men. So I keep playing into that as well, too. So I was like, well, if you. Black men. Yeah. Like, I'm not serious.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I will say this, though, to the point that you just made. Black men are normally. I don't think that black men are. I don't think that direct criticisms of black women are substantive in any way. Almost ever. I don't think I've ever heard one that I've been like, yeah, we need to discuss that. I don't think I've ever heard one. Right. Cause I kind of. You know. But I just gotta be real with you. I'm definitely not listening to one with somebody with a white wife. That's how.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're definitely not what?

[Van Lathan]

I'm definitely not listening to one with somebody with a white wife, that's out. If somebody had a white. I'm just being real with you. Cause you said that. You said that a second ago. I'm like, I don't think that any. But if you. If you. If a black. I don't care. Marry, date, do whatever you like. Is all on you. That's gravy. Is love. Go do your thing. That's no a good. But if you got a white girl and you start talking about black women, I'm gonna be like, yo, what the fuck are you talking about? We've all been with white women. We've all had sex with the white legs. I'm not saying that that's not a thing. I'm not saying that that's a thing. But what I'm saying is it does look away if you are with somebody that is not in that group because it looks like you've set a standard and you found someone who can meet that standard.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I get it. I get it. I would not dismiss that. But I'm not in that place anymore. I'm not personally in that place. But all that to say, I won't generalize with Paul Pierce. I won't generalize. I won't say black men. I'll just talk about Paul Pierce.

[Van Lathan]

Do you think there's any truth to what Paul Pierce is saying? You think that. Let me ask you this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This happens every month. Every month we gotta deal with not.

[Van Lathan]

Truth in what he's saying. Do you think there's truth in the fact that they actually think that? Well, no.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That, yes. You've heard. I personally can attest to black men telling me about us as black women and why they don't date us. Personal experience, like all the way back to college, when I went to ut, I had black men tell me that. So I don't think Paul Pierce said it out of that. It wasn't rooted in anything. I think he's either feels that himself talked to other black men who feel the same way, and that's why he could so quickly come to that conclusion. There's absolutely a narrative that other races are easier to deal with than black women. That stereotype exists. And every month we gotta deal with, if not sooner, some public figure putting black women down in order to uplift women of other races. But this is a Paul Pierce issue. I'm not gonna say it's a black man issue. I will refrain from doing that If.

[Van Lathan]

Rachel starts generalizing black men. We gotta have, like. Is Derek sleep? I was about to Say, has the podcast put four time trainer of the year Derrick James to sleep tomorrow? Or actually it's tonight in New York. Derrick James fighter Derek say he not crazy. No more Read magazine card. I think it's on Dazn. I already bought it, but I'm going to be working so I'm not even going to get to see the damn fights. Ryan Garcia. Derek says he's okay. He beat up Devin Haney, who I've known for a long time. It was tough. So now you guys watch the fight and Derek will be awake. All right, let's talk about Terrence Howard. Donnie.

[John King Jr.]

He was on Bill Maher's podcast speaking about his different roles. He regretted passing on. One of those was playing Smokey Robinson. He met with Smokey and he had to turn it down, he said, because he was in talks with Lee Daniels to play Marvin Gaye. And while doing research for the role, he talked to Quincy Jones and this is what he said.

[Van Lathan]

But I'm asking Quincy. I'm hearing rumors that Marvin was gay and Marvin was gay. And I'm like, was he gay? And Quincy's like, yes. Oh, he went around it with everything. And I was like, no. And I'm like, I could not. I just feel like there's a. There's gay for real. And then there's a point where guys get so much, they're just like, oh, it. Yeah. Well, it would have been that, but they would have wanted to do that and I wouldn't have been able to do that. Well, you mean you couldn't kiss a guy in, on screen, in a movie? No. Not even. Yeah, no. Because I don't fake it. I, I literally. It has to. I couldn't kiss a man either.

[John King Jr.]

That's true.

[Van Lathan]

And that, that would fuck me. I would cut my lips off.

[John King Jr.]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

If I kiss some man, I would cut my lips. Well, I would not do that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm about sick of Terrence Howard. I feel like he's, he's just always making the news for the wrong reasons. Listen. To each their own in regards to. First off, I've. I never had heard Marvin Gaye was gay. So whether there's. That's true or not, I just, I will never get over or believe that it is somebody else's place to out them in that way. Obviously Marvin Gaye is not with us. He can't come out and say what's true or what's not. So I just don't believe in that. If that's something that's gonna be in that movie. Let that come out in that movie. And that's something that, you know, Lee Daniels, he said he was working on this with. That can be a part of the script. But for Terrence Howard to put that out there, I feel like is very wrong. Second thing, we've talked about homophobia in the black community, and particularly with black men. It's one thing if you have a preference and you have a do's and don't list when it comes to acting, right? You don't want to be naked. You won't kiss the same sex, fine. But to then follow that up with, I would rip my lips off. As if the act of that is so disgusting, I couldn't even have that part of my body attached to me anymore. Screams homophobia.

[John King Jr.]

And it's wrong.

[Van Lathan]

Look, if you're not comfortable with doing something on screen, you're not comfortable with doing something on screen. There are a lot of things when I look at Terrence Howard's filmography that he has been comfortable doing on screen. He's been comfortable with hitting ladies on screen. He's been comfortable with pimping on screen. He's been comfortable with putting his son in a trash can on screen. There's a lot of things that he's been comfortable doing on screen. But look. But look, this is what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Terrence Howard. I'm just. You didn't see that part in Empire. That was a tough scene.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's just. It was just so random.

[Van Lathan]

What? You never said put the kid in the trash can.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes, but.

[Van Lathan]

And then Lee talked about that that actually happened to him or that was real, that that pulled on the heartstrings when he put his son in the trash can in Empire. Now we know that Terrence probably wanted to put the motherfucker in the trash can for real. So look, I'm not about to look, if you don't want to do that, he don't want to do that. People have lines. Some people don't want to get nude on screen. Some people don't want to do the love scenes on screen and all of that. But it's always the extra shit that to me, is evangelizing something that is destructive and dangerous to me. That it's. To me, when you get into that, it's like, okay, you've said this is not something you don't think you can do because you don't feel like you can get into it. That's fine. That's cool. To each his own. But when you Gotta double, triple down on it. Now we're getting into a conversation that I feel like is not just dangerous, but makes other people unsafe. If. Look, I don't want to do it. It's not my cup of tea. I don't want to do it. But at the same time, I would like to think that if I was an actor, that I could bring myself to perform in a way that was unique and authentic to the role that I was playing. Right? And if I did do it, fuck it. So what? Get into the character, play the character. I just see all this other stuff. Y' all don't have no problem killing people and fucking, like, you know, beating up on ladies and being dealing dope and doing all of that shit on screen. It's just a weird way. It's homophobic to draw the lines. Huh?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's homophobia. We have to call it what it is.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I know that it's homophobia, Rach. I'm trying to go deeper into it, and we should. And by the way, I just want to let all the black actors out there know if you guys want to kiss a guy on screen or on camera, you're an actor, do your thing. If you don't want to, fine as well. But I would just say you're doing a lot of other stuff on screen. That's. Sometimes the stuff that you're doing is actually honestly reinforcing negative stereotypes and all of that. But it's just weird. It's weird to have that conversation. I thought we were past that point.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I thought we were past that point. No. Remember when Denzel in the interview came out and said that they deleted the scene out of Gladiator 2? And remember how all up in arms people were when he said he kissed a man? We're not past it.

[Van Lathan]

Because they said they were disappointed in Denzel now. Denzel.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, we're about past it to them.

[Van Lathan]

Rachel, what did the judge ever run out on the court when you had any basketball games?

[Rachel Lindsay]

He came close, Donny.

[John King Jr.]

All right, Giannis, him and the Bucs lost in the first round of the playoffs. And John Halliburton, the father of Tyrese, in celebration, ran onto the court and got face to face with Giannis. They kind of had to be separated. Giannis spoke on it after the game. This is what Antetokounmpo had to say.

[Van Lathan]

This is the last thing I'm going to say. I won't talk a lot. We lost the game. It doesn't really matter. One thing I'll say is that I believe, like, being humble in victory, that's the way I am now. There can be a lot of people out there that are like, no, when you, when you win the game, you gotta talk shit. And, you know, it's. It's a green light for you to be disrespectful towards somebody else. I disagree. I've won the championship. They haven't. Okay. And that doesn't say anything. I'm not trying to minimize their effort, but I remember when I won, my mom. My mom, that she never missed the games from February, February 11 or 13, when she came in Milwaukee against the Knicks, she never missed the game when we won the championship. I remember my mom, she was scared to cross. She was like, am I allowed to come and hug my son? We should say that. Halliburton's father went on to apologize for running out on the court and standing in front of a 6 foot 11, 260, 270 pound man, whatever Giannis is, and acted like he wanted to do something. He apologized for that. I guess the moment took him. But, I mean, I guess, you know, I like this type of shit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You do?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I like it. Cause it's fucking ridiculous. Ok. Oh, wait. Donnie just said that after he apologized, John Halliburton then backtracked. Let's hear that sound, Donnie. When I turned, it might have seemed like I was looking at him, but I really wasn't. I was looking through him. That's how I was in the moment. I know it looked like we were looking, like I was staring him down, you know, but it wasn't like that. It was in the moment, as if I was looking right through him. And yes, I had the banner in my hand going and I was yelling, yay. Yay. Yay. Giannis never said anything to me. I never said anything to Giannis. There was no. No back and forth. But that changed when Giannis went face to face with Jon near his baseline seats a few moments later. He grabbed my hands, he put his forehead on my forehead and he said, don't disrespect me. Don't effing disrespect me. Okay? And I said to him, I was not trying to disrespect you. Which I wasn't. I'm telling you, I. I did not do that on purpose. I. I really did not. And then I said to him, I love you. He said back to me, I love you. We patted chest, he gave us a thumbs up, and he walked away. So I would imagine John Halliburton is probably in the 60s or 70s. And this is the question. The question is, let's say John Halliburton got off on Giannis. He got the first shot like my pops, rest in peace. I think that if my daddy, my father was five' eleven, he was about £210, but he could fight southpaw. He boxed. If my dad at 65. Well, let's say 62 before his heart started going bad. If my dad at 62 got the first shot on Giannis, my daddy would whoop me on his ass straight like that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So you trying to say John Halliburton could possibly beat Giannis up?

[Van Lathan]

I'm saying that everybody out there always assumes that the NBA player, the athlete is just gonna run through somebody. And I'm telling you, I got Derrick James back there, four time trainer of the year, Ryan Garcia. Tonight, Times Square, the headliner of the card. I'm throwing this. I'm throwing that right hand. John Halliburton's throwing that right hand. My daddy throwing that right hand. Everybody that's saying that Giannis would have just washed John Halliburton, I don't know. I think my daddy at 62 will wash Giannis straight up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think the problem is we're having a conversation about a dad who walked out on the court, that's his son, and confronted. Okay, but. And confronted Giannis. That's more of the issue. Now, you asked me at the top of this, has my dad ever done that? No, but he has come close. See, my dad used to be very upset. I remember when I was a kid and my sister was playing in the playoffs and my dad was so upset, upset that the refs weren't calling anything. And these girls were all over my sister, pulling my sister's point guard, they were pulling on her jersey. I watched my dad because I didn't sit next to him because he yelled too much in games march from the top of the bleachers all the way down to the bottom, screaming and yelling at the refs. But he didn't go on the court. Probably because they were women. Probably because they were women. It stops there. But my point being is to your point, the ridiculousness of it all, John Halliburton should have been on. He should have been on the court celebrating the fact that his son is advancing in the playoffs and not taking the time to throw it in Giannis's.

[Van Lathan]

Face like he was looking through Giannis.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sorry, you're right.

[Van Lathan]

That's an American black man. Let me tell you something. Part of the reason why he felt like he could do that to Giannis is. Cause Giannis is foreign, I promise. Part of the reason why he felt like he could do that to Giannis, he wouldn't have done that to Isaiah Stewart.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You got beef with four black men.

[Van Lathan]

I do not have a beef with them. What I'm saying is, first of all, I've known some of the toughest foreign black men there are. My dude Fabrice. Shout out to my nigga Fabrice. He's from France. Let me tell y' all something real quick. My nigga Fabrice. So back in the era of the. Back in the era of the gym, we became cool. I would say this is like 09 maybe. No, it was the Lakers championship year. So it was like 08, 09, 2010. Everybody at the gym was cool. We was hooping every single day, 8 to 12 before I got to TMZ, every single day. And my man Nano worked at this bar downtown called Royal Clayton's. Irish. That was the name of the bar. Non work there. We go there and do the picklebacks. My man Fabrice, gigantic dude, six foot four, French guy. Duncan, but like a big guy. One of those big guys that's big. And you wouldn't think that he had hops like that, but he'd be out there playing with us. But Fabrize didn't take no shit. Febreze, he talked French. He talks French, but he didn't take no shit, though. He'll fuck over you, but when he talked is French. And that's funny. It's funny when a N gets mad in French. It's funny. Okay, there are other guys that I know. My man Jimmy, UFC fighter. The toughest fighter in Phil's gym. When he get to talking, he's English, so it's like, oh, shit. But this nigga really fuck you up. It's crazy. So anyway, we go down to the. To Royal Clayton's one time, and it's me and some of the other. The guys that go down there, they're white. Me and Fabrice. This is a two nigga night. So it's Fabrice and it's my nigga Tanner, and it's Arky. Arky is Mexican and it's Ryan and it's Nano and all of these guys, and they get white drunk. And if you're ever around a bunch of white guys, when they get drunk, they're much more affectionate with each other, and they jumping on each other and they smacking balls and, you know, have you Ever been around this? When white dudes get drunk, when white.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You know, I have my one nigga night. So, you know. Okay, right.

[Van Lathan]

So when white dudes get drunk, it's like, yeah, the dick, dude. Yeah, the dick. It's like, weird. They jumping on each other's backs and all of that stuff.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They get rowdy. They get rowdy. They get real playful with each other.

[Van Lathan]

Yo, Febreze is not used to this. Fabrice is not used to this. He goes. So we. Fabrice is like. Ryan grabs, like, Arky from the back, and he's like, open all the way. You. You van V.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think your accent makes it funny.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, my God, Febrez, he's not used to this. He's like, v. He gripped. He's gripped him from back. Fabri speaks great English. I'm just saying, he sees Fritz and this nigga was so mad. Oh, my God, what a fun night. This nigga was so mad. But he was big, and he wanted to fight the niggas that we came there with. But, like, when he get. When he gets mad, it was funny. Fabrice is in no way a hoe. Fabrice to beat a nigga's ass. He was tough from the slums of France or wherever, but it was just a funny night. And so I think that when John Halliburton walked out there, that maybe he got it fucked up a little bit because of the way Giannis talks. Maybe he thought that Giannis won't fuck him up. Cause that'll be a thing. Niggas do that. That was a funny night. These guys got so fucking drunk. Like, they're so drunk. They're talking about. They getting in each other's faces. They're sitting on each other's laps in the bar and all of this stuff. And Fabrice is watching this, and I don't know if he was around many white boys like that in France. And I'm telling him. I'm like, bro, you never been around a bunch of white boys. Like, they like, you gotta.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Maybe they don't act like American drunk white boys. Maybe it's not the same.

[Van Lathan]

Maybe they don't. But I'm like, it's like, you. It's like. And I tell him. I'm like, bro, I've been to France before. I see y'. All. Y' all kiss each other on the cheek with it. It's a greedy. That's a greedy. He grabbed him from the back. I'm like, it's funny.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's funny.

[Van Lathan]

All right, we got a couple of interviews coming up for you guys. I know how much you guys love that. But before we get to the interviews, like I want to. They love the interviews. People love when we talk to them.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I just heard of some sarcasm, but go ahead, look.

[Van Lathan]

Rachel, do you love the thought wars?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I do.

[Van Lathan]

I love them too.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I do, I really do.

[Van Lathan]

They treat me like shit and I love them. These are some of my favorite people. Every time I meet a thought warrior out there, it's always one of the nicest, most awesome.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So nice.

[Van Lathan]

Also most educated. I would say that we have a very educated and with it audience. They, you know, they fuck over me, but I fuck with them. So, you know, we gonna give them a couple more interviews. I wanna talk about something right now. I wanna talk about what's wrong in society. Donnie, can we put this video up? This is what's wrong with society right now. I want Derrick James, four time trainer of the year to look at this. This video right here. These are the types. I'm give you guys a dissertation. This is the type of nigga to get outta your crew. Get this nigga, okay, see this girl is twerking. And then this guy is trying to be funny. Boom. He throws her on the side of the goddamn thing. Now she got chiropractor bills probably for the next 10 years. Now look, you guys, run it back again. Donnie, run it back again. Look, she's twerking. She's doing her thing. She's a camera. He wants to be the star of the show. So he's gonna pick her up and try to throw her into the pool to be the star of the show. And now we don't get no twerking. She's hurt and he's embarrassed. There are so many life lessons. Look at her. It's moving. We like that. Everybody's having fun again. You guys, I couldn't be more serious about this right now. Get that guy out your crew. Get him out of your crew. Wow.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What would you have done if you had seen this? Because it is amazing to me that. And maybe everybody's just stunned and it seems to have happened very quickly. But what would you have done as a man? You were at this party, attending it and you saw that happen.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I mean, look, I'll be honest with you. If you're. The first thing you're gonna do is check on her like you straight. I mean, there's two reasons why you check on her, and I'll just be honest with you. The first reason why you check on her is because you Are legitimately concerned with the fact that she busted her back on the side of the pool. Rachel, you know the second reason why you check on her? You check on her. Cause now you got an end to talk to her. All right? So now. Hey, girl, you straight. You straight. Nigga tripping. Nigga tripping. Girl, I would. While you twerking, I will worship that beauty. You don't have to. You don't have to worry about that. That nigga tripping. Then for the Player Proof crew. We gonna put the drive on him. Whether we know him or not, we gonna put the. We gonna put the drive on him. This lame ass nigga just fucked up the booty shaking. He fucked up the twerking. We gonna put the drive on him. She popping it. We wanted to keep popping it. We wanted to have fun. Now you've been to a pool party. It's guys that make the whole pool party about pushing girls in the pool. Like you've seen that before.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, they do. Yes, they do.

[Van Lathan]

It's guys that make the whole pool party about pushing girls in the pool. That's one thing. But that video is so indicative to me of how things have changed. First of all, this guy overestimated his physical strength. He got everything wrong in one video. He overestimated his physical strength. He could not pick her up.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No.

[Van Lathan]

He dropped her. He overestimated his importance and he overestimated his utility in that party. No one came to see you. Otis, we had a pool party. We came for the ass.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This guy.

[Van Lathan]

Nobody came to see you. No one. Donnie, run it again. No one came to see you. It's a pool party and nobody's even look. What are you doing? What are you doing? No one came to see you. Look at everybody standing around looking like, what's wrong with this nigga? It's one girl shaking ass. Everybody else ain't got enough Casamigos in them yet. And this guy is ruining the entire pool party by doing some shit he can't even do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Let me ask you this. This guy is a party promoter. Came out. This guy's a party promoter.

[Van Lathan]

Do.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is this a personality trait that is indicative to party promoters?

[Van Lathan]

Sean Dickerson wouldn't have done that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Sean would never do that.

[Van Lathan]

Devon Anderson wouldn't have done that. Milt wouldn't have done that. Franz wouldn't have done that. Mark Tung wouldn't have done that. And Mark could probably pick her up. I'm telling you, Vic wouldn't have done that. The party promoters, I know, they wouldn't have done that, as a matter of fact, if you would have done that in the party, they kick you right out. You'd never be able to come back to Papi. You'd never be able to come back to Harriet's rooftop. Never be able to come back to Sadiq. Wednesday nights here in LA at the Highlight Room. I've actually never been there before. Sean does it every time.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's great.

[Van Lathan]

The people there are too beautiful. I'm intimidated to go to Sadiq. I don't. I sometimes want to go to Sadiq. I'll send you to Sadiq. I'll send Kalika to Siddiq. But I.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's not there anymore, by the way.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, well, wherever it is, I'm not good looking enough to be there. I don't want to go to Sadiq. It's for beautiful people. But I'll tell you this. I saw this video and I was angry. I was angry at this nigga. What are we doing? Guys?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Guys, that's bad.

[Van Lathan]

What are we doing? It's not about you. Nobody came to see you. We came to see women. And you made this lady unsafe. There is one way to make a woman unsafe. That's easier than any other way. And it's to overestimate yourself. Now look at her. Now look at her. She got to go get a back braid.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Nah. Yeah. This was crazy. I feel like the party promoters, several of them I knew from back in the day in Texas, would have done something like this.

[Van Lathan]

Pick a girl up, throwing the pool.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Mm.

[Van Lathan]

Really? Look, pushing a girl in the pool.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I feel like I know a lot. Yeah. Back in the day, I could see this.

[Van Lathan]

It's even worse because he's a party promoter. She's twerking at your party. She's twerking at your party. You want to be the story, bruh? You're not the story. We just gotta. This is. And you know, I'm gonna be honest with you. Our young. I'm not gonna use the Y N thing. Cause I think it's actually becoming a racial slur now. But the problem that we have with our young brothers, we got an OG crisis in America. It's some dude somewhere that like, is like, yeah, man, when the girls start showing that ass, I like to pick them up and throw them in the pool. Embarrass her, make her look like a fool in front of the whole party. Cause what you having fun shaking ass for? We got an OG crisis. We gonna start having OG seminars and sending people to OG schools. Because a lot of these OGs out here is just niggas. That's bad bread. Whatever. I'm outta here. I'm done. That pissed me off.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And it should. And it should.

[Van Lathan]

All right, Rachel, introduce these two.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Hopefully nobody goes to any of their parties anymore, but sorry, go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

Who we got coming up?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Um, we got two great guests coming up on the podcast. We have John King Jr. Former U.S. secretary of Education under the Barack Obama administration. He's coming on to talk to us a little bit about what's going on with the Department of Education, what needs to be done about education in this country, and promoting his new book that he has out. So that's a great interview. Feel like we teased that we were going to talk about that. We're doing it now, finally on the podcast. And then we have Lisa Cortez coming on director, I believe the EP of a new docu series, True Crime docu series coming out on Hulu May 6th. It's called Murder Has Two Faces. Very interesting highlighting the untold cases, particularly in these three episodes. Women of color that are lesser known cases but comparable and similar to some of the more popular cases of white women.

[Van Lathan]

All right, we'll get to both of those on the other side of this break. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai, who says you can't be the topic of conversation for all the right reasons. The Hyundai Tucson hybrid pairs bold presence with advanced technology and sleek style. It's everything you didn't know you needed in an SUV and then some. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more.

[John King Jr.]

This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. If there's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation, it's my Apple Card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple Card for your summer travels, apply on the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of July 1, 2025 terms and.

[Rachel Lindsay]

[e-mail] okay, you guys, we have a very special guest. We have talked a little bit about kind of what's going on currently with the administration and with education. And we're bringing on an expert, someone who has served in President Barack Obama's Cabinet as the 10th US Secretary of Education, Chancellor of State University of New York, and has a new book out called Teacher by the People who Change Our Lives. We're talking to John King, Jr. John, thank you so much for joining us today on Higher Learning.

[John King Jr.]

Thanks for the opportunity. Glad to talk with you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Glad to talk with you, too. Okay, before we get into your book, I want to talk a little bit about what's going on with the Department of Education, because we got this big announcement, what, maybe like a month ago, maybe a little somewhere around there, that they were taking the steps to dismantle the Department of Education. Then I feel like we haven't really heard much about it since since then. Have you. Is there an update? And if not, when this announcement came out, you who have been Secretary of Education, what were your thoughts surrounding it?

[John King Jr.]

Look, it's really disturbing. The department plays a crucial role in the country. Education is a national imperative, and this is going to be very damaging. So some of the things have already happened. There are about half as many people working at the Education Department Department today as there were on January 20th. So that's a lot of very talented, committed civil servants who've been treated horribly and who've lost their roles. Now, the department has kind of four core functions. One is getting resources to vulnerable students, students who are in schools that serve low income communities, students with disabilities, English learners. There are fewer people to get those resources to schools. And a real worry that the administration is going to try to cut those funding sources, which will mean larger class sizes, fewer AP classes, teacher layoffs. Second major area of work for the department is our financial aid system, Pell Grants, which make it possible for students to go to college. The student loan system, we're very worried about that. Will that be undermined by having so many fewer people there to administer that program? And again, will they propose cuts even though that will be bad for the economy, bad for our national security? Third, major function of the department is civil rights enforcement. Departments where you go if you are being discriminated against on the basis of race, sex, disability. They received more than 20,000 complaints last year for civil rights violations. But now they've laid off a whole bunch of the folks whose job was to investigate those complaints and hold states and districts accountable. The last piece is the department provides information. Transparency tells us, where are we struggling? Where are we doing well? What should we highlight that we could replicate? All of that is in jeopardy. Many of the people who do that work have been let go. They claim they're going to keep doing that work, but it's hard to understand how that's gonna happen without the people. So it's a really scary time for the education sector.

[Van Lathan]

In your estimation, what's at the root of the Trump administration's aim to gut the Department of Education?

[John King Jr.]

I think it's two things. One is a sort of philosophical skepticism about government. A lot of the Elon Musk Doge kind of mindset that government activities are a waste, that the people who work for government should be respected. I think there's some philosophical orientation that's driving it. But the other, and this is the more dangerous thing, is I think there really is this effort to try to roll back many of the achievements of the civil rights movement. That's really what the Education Department wants. It's an extension of the idea that the federal government needs to make sure that states and districts treat students fairly and that history is grounded in the civil rights movement.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, but when you say the rolling that back, I guess the question is, why is that? Because they don't like the advancements that were made by the civil rights movement. Is it a money saving thing, is a political philosophy, or do you think that there are parts of this administration that are anti civil rights progress? Are they speaking to a base that agrees with that?

[John King Jr.]

Yes. I mean, I think it's all of those.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[John King Jr.]

It's that they think this is a way to save money. There are folks who are in the base that supports the current administration that don't like the things that the civil rights movement produced and have been trying for years in different ways to undermine that. You see that in the Supreme Court, banning the use of race in college admissions. This is about trying to undo the progress we've made on issues like diversity and inclusion over the last 50 years.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They made the announcement, obviously this isn't something that can happen overnight. They are making cuts, as you pointed out. But how likely is it that they'll really be able to dismantle it? Is this something that's just. They're just putting out there like we've seen them do with in other areas, or is this something legally that can be done? And if it is, where will we see pushback? Will it be, you know, Congress, judicial, or maybe even just from the teaching community?

[John King Jr.]

You know, they can't do it without Congress. And I think at the end of the day, Congress is not going to want to see the department eliminated. But what they're doing through these layoffs, through cutting grant programs, is they're trying through a backdoor to have the same impact of undermining the work of the department. And I think we're going to see more of that, you know, in the months ahead, unless Congress steps up and not only keeps the department operating, but actually fulfills their constitutional responsibility and says, if we appropriate money for something, you executive branch have to spend the money on that thing.

[Van Lathan]

Talking about impoundment. So let's get back. It's an interesting question. So they can't undo the Department of Education. They can't get rid of it without Congress, and they're not gonna have the votes. That's not gonna happen. How much damage can they do if, let's say, the President decides that he's not gonna spend the money? He's going to be in clear violation of the Empowerment Act. He's not. He doesn't care. He doesn't seemingly doesn't care about court orders or legal standing or anything like that. How much damage can they do to the Department of Education? Can they do anything to the Department of Education in the time that they're here that can't be undone by an incoming administration?

[John King Jr.]

You know, from a policy perspective, you could try to put it back together, but in the meantime, you'd have a lot of students who are hurt. You know, one of the clearest examples is the fafsa, the Free Application for Federal Student Aid. Right? It's the entry point to get Pell Grants, federal student loans, state financial aid, institutional financial aid from your college.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[John King Jr.]

If the FAFSA breaks because they have laid off so many of the people who work on the fafsa, FAFSA breaks and students can't get access to financial aid, you could lose a huge number of students who might just give up. If they go on and that form doesn't work, they go on three or four more times, they just throw their hands up and they say, oh, this isn't going to work. Maybe college isn't for me. I'm worried about that kind of damage. Or you think about the Office for Civil Rights. You are a family. Your kid isn't getting the services they're entitled to. They have a disability. You file a complaint. There's nobody to process that complaint. And your kid can't get access to a quality education. Now, maybe they're in third grade. By the time the administration is done, your kid is in seventh grade. It's a lot of lost time.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You and I have both done work with the College Football Playoff foundation and speak to teachers across the country. And part of that is to encourage and uplift and inspire. But when you have things like this that are happening and you're seeing they're trying to take the steps to dismantle the Department of Education, what do you see as the future of education? And do you see this mass exodus of teachers not wanting to be a part or people not wanting to be a part of the teaching profession anymore?

[John King Jr.]

I'm worried about that, but I think there's something we can do about it, which is we have to make sure two things that local government and state government steps up and steps in. They can't make up for all the federal dollars, but they can make sure that students are getting quality educational opportunities. And the other thing we have to do is we have to lift up teachers. And that's part of what motivated me in writing the book. Teachers are so vital to everything in our society. Every industry depends on teachers preparing the workforce they need. Teachers are the engine of social mobility. It's the reason that there is the American dream. This idea that regardless of where you start, if you get a quality education and you work hard, there's a path to opportunity. All of that would be lost if we didn't have our teacher. So we have to invest in our teachers. We have to celebrate our teachers. We have to vote like we care about our teachers. Right. Next week is Teacher Appreciation Week. A lot of folks are going to get Starbucks gift cards. That's nice. But even nicer is people acting, whether it's in local elections, state elections, or federal elections, like they truly care about their teachers.

[Van Lathan]

I wanna ask you one question, and it's a question that's sort of close to my heart. Some time ago, on a different podcast, I did sort of a humorous video encouraging people to read because, you know, it was because of Kanye west, to.

[John King Jr.]

Be honest with you.

[Van Lathan]

He was coming out and saying that he doesn't like to read, and then he was saying the stupidest possible things that one can say, and he's still doing okay. And as I went through all of these books that I was encouraging brothers to read, there were people in the comments that were saying, hey, just to let you know, there is a really important problem with black male literacy, particularly middle school age black boys who are behind in reading. And so as we're having conversations about books that you should be reading, we should also be having conversations about whether or not you can read.

[John King Jr.]

That's right.

[Van Lathan]

And since then, I've explored this issue and it is shocking in some places. What can we do about it? What can we do about the fact that so many of our young black boys are struggling and having problems with reading.

[John King Jr.]

You know, a lot of the origin of this comes back to a mistake that was made in how reading is taught that got popularized, which was this idea that, you know, if you hand kids a book and, you know, you give them a comfy place to read and you encourage them to read, that reading is going to happen sort of organically and that all you have to do is sort of chat with kids about what they've read and that's going to take care of them becoming readers. But in fact, reading is a skill. There's a science now of brain research that tells us that part of what students need, many, not all, but many students, they need decoding. They need someone to sit with them and help them associate sounds with letters and to work them through each of the words so that they can understand the mechanics of reading. That's not enough. You also need to build your vocabulary. You need to learn stuff about the world. We need to talk about what we've read so that we can really understand it. But if you never get phonics instruction for many students, they will never be comfortable readers because they didn't get that phonics instruction.

[Van Lathan]

How early does that happen?

[John King Jr.]

You really need to start that kindergarten, first grade, second grade, and if you don't have it by third grade, you are really going to struggle. And the level of intervention you're going to need, you're going to need intensive one on one or small group tutoring to make up for that gap in the foundation. And so some states have done a good job of trying to change their teacher training so that teachers really have an appreciation of this science of reading. But other places are way behind. And if you're not a good reader, it's very hard to access any other aspect of your education. You're going to struggle in math, you're going to struggle in science, you're going to struggle in social studies, and you're going to come to resent school.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's what I was going to ask you is, is this being implemented? You're talking about the science of this being implemented into the classrooms, but you're saying that it is in some places and it's not in others. Exactly.

[John King Jr.]

Like Mississippi, for example. Now Mississippi, it's a very poor state. It's often at the bottom of rankings of education. But actually over the last few years, Mississippi has moved up from sort of the very bottom to about middle of the pack, which is a lot of progress. And the way they did it was a big bet statewide on the science of reading training teachers changing how their teacher prep programs work, changing the curriculum in schools so that students really were getting that foundational reading support.

[Van Lathan]

Wow.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, go ahead, Vancer.

[Van Lathan]

Real quick, before I move off this. Who do we pressure for this? If you care about the literacy? Young black boys. Young black people. I say young black boys because they're lagging behind black girls in this instance. How do you take this, what you've said, success that's been had in Mississippi, how do you mobilize this and make this into something that governments, elected officials, education officials care about? What do we do about it?

[John King Jr.]

Two places to focus your state legislators. Because states provide a huge share of the funding for schools, the federal government actually only provides about 10%. The rest comes from the state and local level. So getting state legislators to understand the science of reading and to pass state laws that require teachers to be trained in the science of reading, require schools to adopt curricula that reflect the science of reading. The other place to go is these local school boards. We have 13,000 school districts in the United States. We are a very decentralized system. And every school board is making the decision around what the curriculum is going to be, what the professional development for teachers is going to be. And you know, a lot of folks don't vote in school board elections. You know, when you talk about voting, most people go right to presidential elections, maybe congressional elections. Very few folks vote in those school board elections. School board members often are very anonymous. They don't feel accountable to the community. And we really should be putting pressure on those folks. What's the reading performance now? What steps are you taking to improve reading performance? And folks should know if reading performance isn't improving, then they're not going to keep getting elected to the school board.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Where can you go to, like you pointed out, the progress that's been made in Mississippi. Where can you go to see maybe the list of the different states and where the different reading levels are, just so people can be informed or even locally, like, where can you go to know what's going on in your schools?

[John King Jr.]

That is such a perfect question. Ties right back to what we were talking about, about the Education Department. So the best tool, the reason we know about Mississippi's progress, is the National Assessment of Educational Progress, the NAEP assessment. And that's taken every couple years. And it gives us information on every state's performance in reading and math, particularly for fourth and eighth graders. That is one of the core Functions of the Education Department. The people who work on the naep, many of them have been laid off in the last few months. So I am very worried about the NAEP because without that, we will be flying blind.

[Van Lathan]

Well, so your book, Teacher by the People who Change Our Lives is available now. It's about your journey, and it's about a love of education. You know, I've always loved teachers. You know, I've always had a good relationship with all of my teachers. Back in the day, there was the one time, John, where we had a substitute teacher in Ms. Inouye's class. And it was Kara's grandfather was a substitute teacher. And he fell asleep in the class. So I put Showgirls on in the class so that we could all watch it. We were in the 9th and 10th grade. Have you seen Showgirls with Elizabeth Berkley?

[John King Jr.]

That's terrible.

[Van Lathan]

That is terrible. Well, but he went to sleep, and we were supposed to be watching something in Tiffany's class. And I did take advantage of a teacher at one time. I put Showgirls on. Led to a quite lucrative business that I was able to start there in high school. But for you, where did your love of education come from? And why was it so important for you to write a book that you feel like is a love letter to teachers?

[John King Jr.]

You know, it really comes back to my childhood. So both my parents were teachers. So I always heard about school. You know, as a little kid.

[Van Lathan]

The.

[John King Jr.]

Dinner table conversation was about school. But what really made school so meaningful in my life was losing my parents. My mom passed when I was 8. I lived with my dad, who was struggling with Alzheimer's. So home was chaotic and scary, and nobody knew that he was sick, and nobody knew what home was like for me. I didn't know if he would be sad, angry, violent from one night to the next. And the thing that saved me was school. School was the place that was safe and supportive and consistent. And I had this amazing teacher in fourth, fifth, sixth grade who I talk about in the book, Mr. Osterweil, who quite literally saved my life. If I hadn't been in his class, I wouldn't have made it through that period. We read the New York Times every day in his class. We did all kinds of field trips.

[Van Lathan]

Showgirls.

[John King Jr.]

No, showgirls. Museum of Natural History, the ballet. We did productions of Shakespeare in elementary school. And so his class was a place where I could be a kid when I wasn't able to be a kid at home. And then when my dad passed, when I was 12. I moved around. Different family members, different schools, but it was always teachers who gave me a sense of hope and purpose. And so really, I wanted in this book to tell their story. Because if, you know, I've had this incredible career because of them, because of what they made possible in my life.

[Van Lathan]

Wow.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's beautiful. Go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

It is beautiful. I was gonna say there was a teacher, Mr. Neubauer, and he let me direct. In the sixth grade, he let me direct a play. He passed away. He's gone now. But in the sixth grade, I was in. We had moved out here, and I was talking about the fact that I wanted to be in the movies. And he let me direct a play. And let's never forget that. It was a fun situation. I was. I didn't know that you could direct a play. I didn't know what that meant. But I directed a play in the sixth grade. And then that was like him and I. He took me to Sizzler. We talked about the direction of the play. He told me how to direct. He gave me the whole deal. I always think about that guy. You know, he didn't live to see, you know, us win the Academy Award or anything like that. But just after that, I knew I could do it. Mr. Neubauch, that's beautiful.

[John King Jr.]

I mean, that. That is what teachers can do.

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[John King Jr.]

They can give you a sense of possibility and expose you to things you never otherwise would have considered.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, we in the. At the foundation, we have a saying that, you know, it only takes one. And I think everybody. We always encourage people to remember that one teacher that made a difference in your life before we let you go, just. Just you writing a book, dedicating it to the teachers who mean so much to you, to your parents who were teachers. My mom was a teacher. Van talking about the teachers that made a difference in his life. They play such a crucial role in shaping, I think, our identity. But the pay doesn't reflect that. What? I don't even know how to necessarily phrase this question, but more about, like, what can we do for the pay or what can be done for the pay to reflect the value that teachers have in our lives?

[John King Jr.]

Yeah, you know, two things. One is it goes back to these state legislatures. That is one of the principal places where we could put pressure on folks to pay teachers fairly. Some states do a much better job than others, and we have to help state legislators and governors understand that the state's economic future comes back to teachers attracting good teachers and keeping good teachers. But the other thing I'd love to see is the federal government step up and say, and I know we're very far from this right now, but I would love for the federal government to say, if you are willing to teach in a high needs community or in a subject area where we have shortages, math and science teachers, bilingual teachers, teachers with students with disabilities, we're going to pay for your education so that folks aren't feeling like if I choose teaching, I'm going to be saddled with debt that I cannot cover.

[Van Lathan]

John, I have an idea before we let you go. I've thought about this for a while. I want you to think about this. It's a radical idea. All right? We need the Department of Education for this. So let's cross our fingers and hope that Rachel's vote for Trump didn't destroy our opportunity. She's a Trump.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's not true. I don't know if you know that, John.

[Van Lathan]

If, if, if, if didn't destroy this. Okay, what if through the Department of Education, we set up a teacher achievement type of thing where teachers test into it or whatever. And if you are one of these accredited teachers from the Department of Education, which we would encourage everyone to be, you pay no state and federal income taxes ever. Like, you don't pay state and federal income taxes. We make teaching a public good. You have to make sure that we have quality teachers in here teaching a public good. But as a public good, you are exempt from state and federal income taxes. We don't tax the teachers, John.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Add student loans. Add student loans. Let's get rid of those two. Forgive them immediately.

[John King Jr.]

Both points are right. Right.

[Van Lathan]

Like that.

[John King Jr.]

This. If we don't find a way to pay people more, which makes it impossible for people to choose teaching and they feel pressure than to choose something else that is more lucrative. And many times we lose great teachers who want to stay in the profession, but they just feel like, I want to buy a house, I want to have kids, and I can't do it on this salary. So whether it's through the tax code or through loan forgiveness, we have to show how much we value teachers. Not just through doing nice things, but through making sure people get paid.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you.

[Van Lathan]

Well, John, thank you for joining us on Higher Learning. Today, we will continue to fight. The battle of education is one of the most important battles to fight. He is the author of Teacher by the People who Change Our Lives. It is available now. John King, Jr. Thank you for joining us on our Learner.

[John King Jr.]

Thank you so much.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, tell everyone where they can get the book.

[John King Jr.]

Amazon, Barnes and Noble, independent booksellers.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you, John. We appreciate your time.

[Van Lathan]

Thank you, John.

[John King Jr.]

This episode is brought to you by NBA 2K26. A favorite of my sons and me. All right, quick break. NBA 2K26 stacked this year. Gameplay new motion engine smoother catch and shoot. The rhythm shooting is dialed in. My team added the W. So now you can get Caitlin Clark pulling up from deep. Larry Bird talking trash mid game. Jokic casually dropping triple doubles. It's absurd in the best way. My career has a whole new storyline. The city's tighter and you're on the court way faster. I've been playing video basketball games. I think the first one was early 80s. I'm stunned. Like when I. When I go and my son's playing with his friends and I go in and I barge my moon and I start playing with them. I'm just amazed by how good, how detailed all the games are, how they really look like NBA players. 2K26 is finally here and yeah, it is absolutely loaded. If you care about basketball even a little, you're checking it out today. Ball over everything. This episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big let's hype up workout clothes guy, but Vuori, I gotta say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably gonna see me wearing some Vuori Sunday performance joggers that they have. It's made with four way performance stretch fabric. One of the most comfortable things you own. You will wear them everywhere, I promise. All you have to do is go to Vuoria.com Simmons and you get 20% off your first purchase with Vuori. V-U-O-R-I.com Simmons. Enjoy. Free shipping on all US orders over $75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, there's a new docu series coming out. It is called murder has two faces. It is streaming on Hulu May 6th. We are here with Grammy nominated and Emmy winning director and producer Lisa Cortez who is behind this docu series. You produced and directed 2023's Little I Am Everything for CNN Films. By the way. I loved that because I am one of the world's big Little Richard fans. You got good. I love Little Richards. An icon and a legend. This docu series is delving into some of the country's lesser known murders. And it seems like all of the country's murders are well known now because true crime is Such a big deal with all the true crime out there. Thank you for joining us on Higher Learning. Lisa. With all the true crime out there, what makes this show different and makes this something that people can tune into and enjoy in a different way than maybe some of the other stuff that's out there?

[Lisa Cortez]

Well, the premise of the show is that we are obsessed with certain stories that we keep revisiting, whether it's Gabby Petito, Lacey Peterson, Chandra Levy. But what we don't know is that there are parallel stories of women of color that we never heard about that take place in the same time period in the same cities. And these stories did not get any visibility. So when I looked at the true crime genre as a storyteller, I wanted to ask the question, why don't we know these stories and let's put a spotlight on these characters and their families and in some cases see if we can find justice and closure for the participants.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, it's really fascinating because I really, when you compare the cases, the lesser known ones never had heard of these people who had lost their lives in very similar tragedies. And as you sit down, which I'm sure is very difficult, as you sit down with family members and they have to revisit what happened to their family member, do you also talk to the police departments as well or, or maybe even attorneys to try to seek justice, as you said?

[Lisa Cortez]

Yeah, we have a lot of buckets that we fill in the storytelling. So of course we want to speak to the family first because the big picture that we are creating is who was this person that was lost? We want to restore their humanity. They're not a statistic. And then we speak to journalists, we speak to sociologists, we speak to FBI people. In some cases we do speak to the police, and in others they abstain from speaking to us. But, you know, our first episode is a comparison of Lacey Peterson and Evelyn Hernandez, two women. They are both pregnant. They are both found in the same San Francisco Bay. There's a very few months in between the disappearance of Evelyn Hernandez and then Lacy Peterson, the same FBI diver worked on these cases. But Evelyn Hernandez is a single mother with a five year old son who also disappeared and has never been found. Her child that she was pregnant with has not been found. The police in that case, what I love is we got archival footage of back in the day, them talking and investigating. And then we see Holly Pera, the detective now who's like, this is a case that has stuck with me. I will never give it up. And it is an open case. And at the end of the episode, we have a number you can call because we're hoping that some brave person is going to come Forward in these 20 plus years and provide information so that justice can happen in this case.

[Van Lathan]

When you're doing these interviews with these various law enforcement officers and officials and people like that, were any of them shameful or was there any, I guess, guilt on their part that maybe some of these cases weren't? Or various media figures as well, that some of these cases didn't get the same spotlight that other more well known cases of white women got?

[Lisa Cortez]

Well, well, we'll talk about missing White women syndrome next. But in response to your question about the police, you know, in our third episode, we look at the youngest black serial killer tag. It's a case that took place in New Jersey and we contrast that with the Craigslist Killer. There were two incredible detectives who actually helped to solve that case. And what they are respectful of is their brothers in blue who maybe did not pick up on early clues, who did not listen to a survivor. And there is a fraternity there. So they're never going to say, oh, that person did it the wrong way. What they do say is that they recognize the value of everyone. So listen, in every story, there's the people who get it, who do not let their unconscious bias get in the way. And we certainly spoke to these guys who were fantastic and they kind of wonder. They said they would have done it differently. You know, that's the kind of fine line that they're going to, you know, that they need to walk for the fraternity that they're a part of.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You mentioned missing White women syndrome. Can you talk a little bit about it? And is that something, is the frustration with that maybe something that really inspired you to say this? There are other stories that need to be told.

[Lisa Cortez]

Well, you know, the late Gwen Ifill, she coined this term the missing white woman syndrome. And it is about the inordinate visibility and compassion that is given to missing white women that is not afforded to women of color. And in our series, we're looking at black women, Latin women, Asian women. And you know, one of the things that was important for me is that we look at all of the issues that are a part of this disparity. It's socioeconomic, it is the resources that the police have. It is just the outreach to publicity. A lot of times people don't know that with Lacey Peterson, she disappears on Christmas Eve, the Christmas Day. There is a member of the family who's A publicist who is able to release to the AP nationwide this story. Well, Evelyn Hernandez is a single pregnant woman with a five year old son. She is a new immigrant. She's an immigrant. She's struggling. Her family does not have these resources. She even has a sister who is deaf. And so that sister, when she contacts the police and they come to her, nobody comes to help with the signing and to. There's no ASL interpreter. So you see this discrepancy between the resources that are there to elevate the humanity of missing and murdered women of color, indigenous women. And that is a part of the conversation I think we need to have. It's like this show is great entertainment, but it's also asking you, why don't I know these stories? What's wrong with the system? And the system is broad. It's not just the media that wants the top sizzle story. It's not police who do not take people seriously because of their past or who they perceive them to be. It's all of these things.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, those cops gotta stop protecting each other. Gotta kick that fraternity off campus. The police still upset. Okay, so tell us where people can find the show and tell us about Robin Roberts as a host down there in Louisiana, one of the most familiar faces in all of media. Tell them where they can find it, where they can watch it and how they tune in.

[Lisa Cortez]

So Robin Roberts is a partner on this. She appears on screen. She's never done true crime before, but she was so moved by the interrogation that we had in the storytelling and as a journalist, it's things that she's been looking about and has been questioning. And oftentimes in the story, you're going to see images of Robin from 20 years ago where she's actually reporting on some of these stories. She is brilliant. She is so compassionate. And when she comes on set and speaks to a family member, there is so much security that they have of being in her hands. And what they share was amazing. It's some things that have never been told before. So the series, there's three episodes, Murder has two faces that start streaming on Hulu on May 6th.

[Van Lathan]

I'm gonna. I love Drew.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. Van. Yeah. I'm shocked you didn't mention your fascination with interrogation videos that he's been. You've been basically studying at this point. Lisa, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for bringing awareness to stories that were unknown to so many people. And I would imagine that there's going to be a demand for more. More stories, more stories. To be told.

[Lisa Cortez]

Unfortunately, there are a lot more stories, but there is also in the telling of these stories, the ability to right wrongs and to bring closure. For me as a filmmaker, people are like, what is the connection between a bio doc on Little Richard and a true crime series? And my answer is, in both cases, the storytelling is not about the surface. It is about the shared humanity that we have with these people that we think we know their stories and then the nuances of who they are and what happened to them are something that is revelatory and it makes for education, entertainment, and in some cases, a call to action for change.

[Van Lathan]

Thank you so much for joining us on Higher Learning Week.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you.

[Lisa Cortez]

I listen to you guys all the time. I appreciate you so much.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We appreciate that.

[Van Lathan]

We appreciate that. All right, before we get out of here. Hey, is one of these mics going? Can we. Yeah, sure. I want to hear from four time trainer of the year, Derek James. Real quick, Derek, come over here before we get out of here and talk to the people. Real quick. He's got. Yeah, yeah. Pull the chair up over here. Four time trainer of the year, Derek James, former trainer Errol Spence, former trainer Jamel Charlo, Anthony Joshua, Jermell Charlo, Anthony Joshua. All of these guys. The fights are tonight. They're in New York City. They're on the zone. Ryan Garcia is fighting. Who? He's fighting Rollie Romero. Oh, yeah. Ryan's fighting Rollie tonight. These are. So if you guys don't know Rolly Romero, Rollie Romero is used to be one of Floyd's fighters. I think he still is. Kind of sorta. Kind of sorta. But he's fighting it. Yeah. Real quick. Rachel's from Oak Cliff, right? You're from Oak Cliff, right, Derek, Rachel has several beefs, okay. She's a good athlete. She's a young woman. Can you get Rachel right? With these hands, I get her right. You can get her right. So listen, I'm gonna get both of you all together, give you your workout, but then we're gonna come together. I'm gonna work with her also. You gonna work with Rachel as well? I get her right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I have a bad shoulder. Oh, my God. So I just wanna be aware of that. What do I need to do to make sure, you know, a bad shoulder?

[Van Lathan]

We can work around that. We can work around that. Listen, but when. If somebody gets on that butt, you change that, you. You don't care about the pain when somebody trying to fight somebody else.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, that's right.

[Van Lathan]

It's true. Yeah. So don't come in the room with the, with the, with the excuse.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm not mad at it. I'm not mad at it. I'm not mad at it. I actually need to be like whenever I have a trainer, that's how I need you to come at me. Cause otherwise I'm gonna push back. I like it.

[Van Lathan]

Derek, I'm gonna ask you a real question now, okay? Derek, I'm gonna ask you a real question now. I'm gonna buy this fight. Okay. Over the past year or two, Ryan Garcia has said a lot of things that have pissed me the hell off. I got you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

A lot of stuff that has pissed me the hell off. Derrick James, four time trainer of the year. Is Ryan good now or is he still kind of saying crazy stuff and acting crazy? You got him, right? If he was doing that, I wouldn't be right here. Gotcha. So it was a conversation we had to go through and talk to and work it out or whatever. So yeah, if that'd be the case, I wouldn't be doing it. What was wrong with him? Amen. Life, you know, life, they said life is life. And the things happen in your life and being young, 25 years old, it's kind of, you know, difficult to deal with whatever. And yeah, man, but that's in the past. Rolly Romero's in the future. And then a rematch with Devin Haney is after that. Right after that. Yeah, no doubt. Is there a part of you that wants Devin to win the rematch because he's black? I want joke. Don't answer, don't answer that question. You're his trainer. I'm messing with you. But you, but just so people don't know, Devin Haney was young fighter I got a lot of love for, but he was, he was pretty well destroyed in the first fight. Couldn't get out of the way of the left hook. Ryan Garcia then popped for a banned substance. I think the fight went to no contest. Will is that fight, will the result be the same or do you think that Devin Haney poses a different challenge for Ryan Garcia now that he's been in with the Morris? You know, I'm sure it'll be the same because I believe in myself. So you talk about Ryan, you talk about me. So I believe that it's going to be the same result. Now it could end in a different manner, but it may be because seeing somewhere else, you know, the situation may be different when too much, you know, they didn't call a lot of the knockdowns, you know, so that'll be. That may be a different situation. Not to say. I mean, I like the referee too, but, you know. Yeah. All right, that was a quick bite right there for the boxing fans. We got Derrick James, four time trainer of the year. We're hanging out here in New York. Look, I'll tell you guys something right now. He's from Oak Cliff in Texas, the same place that Rachel's from to Oak Cliff. We've had a lot of people from Oak Cliff on the podcast and hardly anybody from Baton Rouge, okay? So I just want everyone to know that this is higher learning Oak Cliff because we had. We had him on. We had Jonathan Majors.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Jonathan Majors.

[Van Lathan]

Jonathan Majors on Shout out to Joe. You know what? Fuck nah. We had Jonathan Majors, the Star Magazine dreams on the podcast. Brothers building his life back from something. Get mad about it if you want. Jonathan Majors was on the podcast. We had a lot of people from Oak Cliff. We gotta get some Baton Rouge people on the fucking podcast. All right? Gotta get Boosie out there. Gotta get Boosie. Boosie, Rachel.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Would you like to talk to Boosie? That's a big no.

[Van Lathan]

Would you like to talk to Boosie, Rachel?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I got some things to say to Boosie.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, we'll have Boosie on the podcast. Only problem is getting Boosie on the podcast is gonna cost you like 10 bands. So it's like we have Boosie on the podcast, but the fights are tonight in Times Square. They. In Times Square? You're fighting in Times Square, Right? In Times Square, everything is set up as in Times Square. Yeah, in Times Square they're fighting free Pup is free for. I think that for the people. If you come out, you can see the fight. Oh, wow. I'm going to be doing cnn, so I won't get a chance to see the fights. But Ryan Garcia will be out there. Teofimo Lopez with his big mouth ass will be out there. Roland Romero will be out there. Devin Haney will be out there. Is a great card. At 154 and. No, no, no, no, no. At 140 and 147. 140 and 147. That's light and welterweight. Light welterweight and welterweight. Junior welterweight and welterweight. So you guys watch that. And then whole weekend of boxing. Canelo Alvarez on Saturday. That's Derrick James, Rachel, Lindsay Van Lake. They take team caps off but do not stop wearing. I'm going to Rachel Jr.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm Rachel J. Lynn. Lindsay.

[Van Lathan]

Bye, guys.