RIP ‘Love & Hip-Hop,’ Scott Jennings on CNN, and a Colorism Conversation

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: RIP ‘Love & Hip-Hop’, Scott Jennings on CNN, and a Colorism Conversation
Date: May 5, 2026
Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Van and Rachel break down major topics in Black culture, media, and politics. They discuss the end of Love & Hip-Hop, the heated confrontation involving CNN’s Scott Jennings, and have an honest conversation about colorism within the Black community. Throughout, the hosts intersperse cultural references, humor, and their signature back-and-forth banter, making for a wide-ranging and lively discussion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Light Banter and Stand-Up Comedy Anxiety

[00:09–05:41]

• The episode opens with playful confusion over Google Docs animal avatars ("anonymous raccoon") leading to jokes about animal-based nicknames.
• Van shares nerves about preparing for his upcoming stand-up routine, talking through the writing process, advice received (Jimmy Kimmel, Brandon T. Jackson, Alex Edelman), and whether he’ll be able to land his jokes.
  • Quote: "If they don’t laugh, just keep going." – Advice to Van from Brandon T. Jackson [04:14]
• Rachel teases Van about his minimal drinking and plans to heckle him at the event.

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2. Karen Bass Interview Recap and Politicians' Storytelling

[06:51–14:21]

• They reflect on the response to Van’s recent Karen Bass interview, noting positive feedback from listeners and even John Legend.
• Discussion turns to the ethics of politicians sharing personal stories to further campaigns, spurred by criticism of Spencer Pratt's mayoral run and narrative:
  • Van: “I have no problem with that [running because of a personal incident]. The only thing I would have a problem with is policy. Policy is the thing that gets me.” [12:55]
  • Rachel explains the difference between authentic story-sharing and contrived, misleading narratives: “Spencer’s doing more than that... It’s misleading. That’s not right.” [10:42]
• They emphasize the fine line between leveraging hardship for relatability and exploiting pain for gain.

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3. Reality TV Stars as Politicians & End of an Era for Black Reality Shows

[14:21–31:15]

• In a fun segment, Van and Rachel ponder which reality TV stars would make good political leaders, cycling through names like Phaedra Parks, Jocelyn Hernandez, Matt James, and referencing older shows (Real World, Road Rules).
• The conversation pivots to Paramount ending Love & Hip-Hop after 15 years, and the broader trend of Black reality TV's fade ([18:59–31:15]).
  • Rachel on LHH’s cultural impact:
    • “It launched the career or at least put in certain names into the pop culture zeitgeist... Cardi B, K. Michelle, Ray J, Jim Jones, so many.” [22:11]
  • Van contextualizes the show:
    “Love and Hip-Hop was kind of like a show about the middle class of hip hop, which no one had ever really cared about before then.” [28:08]
• Both agree the genre was crowded out by more sensational streaming reality shows (Zeus Network) that go further for drama, and that LHH’s early value was its authenticity and insight into behind-the-scenes hip-hop life.

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4. Post Malone/Jelly Roll Tour Cancellations & White Artists on the Border of Hip-Hop/Country

[33:07–44:09]

• News: Post Malone postpones a joint tour with Jelly Roll, citing needing more time but rumors swirl of poor ticket sales.
• Van and Rachel analyze the precarious position of crossover artists with “hip-hop adjacent” backgrounds (e.g., Post Malone, Jelly Roll):
  • Van: “If you start fucking around and eating around the edges of anti-Blackness even a little bit, you’ll get de-cooled on that side.” [35:19]
  • They discuss audience dynamics, country music's politics, and how fast fame can dissolve—especially if authenticity is in question.
  • Rachel attributes cancellations more to saturation and slow ticket sales than true “cancellation,” though agrees with Van that recent bad press impacts Jelly Roll.

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5. CNN’s Scott Jennings Meltdown and Media Platforming—Should He Be Kicked Off?

[44:09–67:31]

• A heated panel segment from Abby Phillip’s CNN show is dissected; conservative commentator Scott Jennings loses his cool, leading to an on-air expletive and allegations of contributing to political violence.
  • Van summarizes the moment:
    “He broke Scott. Because what we never, ever want to interrogate ... is that the person that is lying to you ... you can’t lie your way through this.” [48:30]
  • Rachel argues for his removal:
    “I don’t think that you need a Scott Jennings to have a successful show. And to me, this line was the corner.” [51:08]
  • They debate: Van feels it’s important to have voices like Scott’s so their flawed arguments get debunked live; Rachel sees limits and feels Jennings’s behavior crossed a dangerous line.
• Authenticity and media narratives: The discussion shines light on how media shapes who gets a voice, what boundaries should exist, and the line between argument and implied threat.

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6. Athletes, White House Visits, and Cultural Generational Gaps

[67:31–80:28]

• Chicago Bears QB Fernando Mendoza publicly opts out of the White House visit (with Trump) for “OTAs,” sidestepping politics while staying focused on his team.
  • Rachel approves: "It was a perfect answer... I'm trying to win this starting position." [68:49]
  • Van notes: “At this point, there are myriad reasons that one could decide they don't want to be in a photo with Donald Trump.”
• Generational/cultural knowledge: Van quizzes Rachel and the team on Miami Sound Machine and Gloria Estefan, lamenting what he sees as “cultural laziness” among younger generations.
  • Van: “There is some cultural laziness that's starting to exist, and we need to talk about it.” [74:25]
  • Rachel and Jade counter that modern content overload makes it hard to keep up with everything.

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7. Colorism—Open, Raw Discussion

[84:24–111:52]

• They play clips from L’oreal and Mona (Don’t Call Me White Girl) discussing colorism and “reverse colorism,” prompting a nuanced and sometimes heated conversation.
  • Mona (quoted):
    “I know that the darker you are in this country, the harder it is for you... I have a certain amount of empathy for my sisters. But … the bullying and shit I experienced was a thing too.”
  • Rachel rebuts the notion of “reverse colorism”:
    “Colorism is a thing. It absolutely exists. ... It wasn't invented by Black people. It was a tool of control.” [87:12]
• They explore the origins (white supremacy, desirability linked to proximity to whiteness), how it’s perpetuated, and why conversations about “pretty girl problems” or light-skin privilege are fraught.
• Van brings up how representation in media still skews light-skinned—exemplified by the consistent casting of biracial actresses for iconic Black roles (e.g., Storm in X-Men).

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8. Gatekeeping and Litigating Blackness

[100:31–111:52]

• Vivid debate on whether it’s appropriate for Black people to “litigate” levels of Blackness, discuss gatekeeping, and draw boundaries within the community:
  • Rachel: “We should not be litigating ... There’s no book that exists or checklist that says this makes you Black. That’s what makes us beautiful.”
  • Van: “I think all cultures do [police authenticity]... It’s vital because it makes those cultural traditions and values important.”
  • Distinction drawn between necessary gatekeeping against “anti-Blackness” (e.g., Candace Owens) vs. exclusion based on upbringing, schooling, or speech.
• Both use thoughtful personal experience to illustrate the complex ways Black identity, social suspicion, and community boundaries work in America.

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9. Cultural Interludes, Humor, and Generational Change

Throughout

• The episode is stamped with the duo’s trademark humor—a blend of teasing, cultural observations, listing favorite Latino stars (Van: “Number one, Selena!” [81:52]), and jests about movie knowledge gaps across generations.
• End segment includes playful “Z Corner” banter on language, hair (locks vs. dreads), and further references to intra-community judgment.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

Timestamps in MM:SS format

• “If they don’t laugh, just keep going.” — Brandon T. Jackson to Van on performing stand-up [04:14]
• “Love and Hip-Hop was kind of like a show about the middle class of hip hop, which no one had ever really cared about before then.” — Van [28:08]
• “If you start fucking around and eating around the edges of anti-Blackness even a little bit, you’ll get de-cooled on that side.” — Van (re: Jelly Roll, Post Malone) [35:19]
• “I don’t think that you need a Scott Jennings to have a successful show. And to me, this line was the corner.” — Rachel [51:08]
• “Colorism is a thing. It absolutely exists. ... It wasn’t invented by Black people. It was a tool of control.” — Rachel [87:12]
• “We should not be litigating ... There’s no book that exists or checklist that says this makes you Black. That’s what makes us beautiful.” — Rachel [101:25]
• “I think all cultures do [police authenticity]...It’s vital because it makes those cultural traditions and values important.” — Van [103:44]
• “There is some cultural laziness that's starting to exist, and we need to talk about it.” — Van [74:25]

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Notable Sections & Timestamps

• [10:31–13:03] — Deep dive into the line between real and performative campaign narratives
• [18:59–31:15] — Tribute & analysis of Love & Hip-Hop’s end
• [44:09–67:31] — CNN’s Scott Jennings, media platforming, and the line between debate and danger
• [84:24–97:58] — Colorism: personal stories, history, privilege, and intra-community dynamics
• [100:31–111:52] — Grappling with “blackness,” gatekeeping, and the balance between inclusivity and boundary-setting

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Tone & Style

The episode retains the hosts’ conversational, candid, and irreverent style, moving seamlessly between lighthearted ribbing, deep-dives on serious social issues, and personal storytelling. Both bring lived experience and community insight, striking a balance between humor and substance.

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For Listeners Who Didn’t Tune In

• You’ll learn: about the cultural importance and decline of Black reality TV, the risks and responsibilities of media platforms in political debate, and the complicated legacy of colorism within the Black community.
• You’ll hear: real stories, laughs, disagreements, and lessons on how representation, authenticity, and tradition shape culture.
• You’ll appreciate: the nuanced, multi-generational approach Van and Rachel take to today’s challenges in Black America—with all the wit, vulnerability, and candor fans love.

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Transcript

[A]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up? Anonymous raccoon? Higher learning is on is Ivan Lathan

[B]

Jr. And it's me, Rachel.

[A]

Um, who is anonymous raccoon?

[B]

Where are you getting this from?

[A]

Somebody was just in the document. We have to pay attention to the document when we're interviewing people.

[B]

Oh, because they'll be like, wrap it

[A]

up, wrap it up.

[B]

10 minutes left end after this question. And me and fan will be like, no, it's okay, it's okay. We're not running out of time. Just keep going.

[A]

Tell us about your childhood. Yeah, but somebody said anonymous raccoon is in the document. Who's. That's you.

[B]

No, I don't know who it is.

[A]

Who is the anonymous raccoon?

[B]

Revenge.

[A]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[B]

Who has access? Wait, you can easily tell this is anonymous. So it's not Donnie, it's not Jade. There are too many people. There's anonymous cuoca and there's anonymous. Is that us?

[A]

One of them is y'. All.

[B]

Is that us?

[A]

Anonymous, quokka, skunky and a raccoon.

[B]

Wait a minute, that's us.

[A]

Hold on, hold on.

[B]

That's fucked up sometimes, but sometimes it pops up like that. Even if it, like is someone who has access to the dog.

[A]

So.

[B]

So that's us.

[A]

One of the reason.

[B]

Who's the raccoon?

[A]

Somebody in here is a coon.

[B]

I'm going to say type Rachel.

[A]

You the coon. Rachel's the united. Oh, my God. The coon has been revealed. See?

[B]

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

[A]

Let me see, let me see, let me see.

[B]

You the skunk.

[A]

I'm the skunk. That's cool.

[B]

You the skunk.

[A]

I'm not the coon, though. Well, I'll tell y' all something.

[B]

It's a koala.

[A]

No, it says anonymous raccoon.

[B]

Mine does not say raccoon. Did y' all say raccoon?

[A]

Are you doing something right now? Type something. You're the raccoon. You're the raccoon. You're the anonymous coon, Rachel. The anonymous coon.

[B]

I'm on the podcast today. I don't feel comfortable being here.

[A]

By the way. I don't blame us for this. This is the fault of Google Docs and I'm not standing for this. Google Docs put some. We got coons in the house now. We got coon Rachel. Lazy. We'll do the intro again.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yo, yo, Thought warriors. No highlighter is on it is I Van Lathen Jr. This is the coon Rachel. Lindsay. I'M sorry, I'm sorry. That's not. That's.

[B]

I can't wait to heckle you tonight.

[A]

I can't. Oh, you gonna heckle me tonight?

[B]

I'll heckle you tonight after this.

[A]

That's funny.

[B]

As soon, as soon as you get up to the mic, Bo

[A]

Bo.

[B]

Throw some shit up there.

[A]

Yeah, it's funny. I, like, I was. I finally typed out some of the standup on like a Friday and as I was typing it, I was having like a panic attack as I was typing.

[B]

It's honestly, I couldn't do it. So I applaud you. So wait, you typed it out? So is this. Are we doing a story or are we doing multiple jokes?

[A]

We've changed the joke. We're doing a setup to a story. Two stories. One about my nephew and then one about my father.

[B]

Okay. I hope you hurry up and get there.

[A]

That's the thing.

[B]

Yeah, that's my biggest fear for you. I know you'll be funny. You're funny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The fear is, will you get there?

[A]

Yeah, that's the thing. The thing is like I had to pare it down and trim it down a lot.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So that's the thing.

[B]

It's like whether or not I can seriously. And I'm glad you're not making fun of anybody that's gonna be in the audience.

[A]

I don't think that I will. It depends though, who knows? I'm gonna have a lot of drinks before, so we'll see like how off the fucking. Cause if it goes bad, I want it to go like super fucking.

[B]

And what you guys don't understand is Van's not a big drinker. So him saying like, I'm gonna have a bunch of drinks, that's actually like a big deal. If I was like, oh, I'm gonna have a few shots before. It's like, ah, par for the course, but for you, I'm a little nervous. If you're gonna be taking a bunch

[A]

of shots, it starts at 6:30. I'm going to take some shots at 6:30. I'm Going Start. Yeah, I'm going start drinking.

[B]

It starts at seven for anybody who's coming, but the doors start opening early. I'm going to get there earlier. Hopefully to not make you nervous, but you know, seeing familiar faces, Maybe it'll calm you down.

[A]

Maybe it will. But fun experience. Thanks to Ida. Thanks to everyone who's given me advice.

[B]

Who'd you go to?

[A]

Jimmy Kimmel gave me some advice.

[B]

Nice, nice, nice.

[A]

Brandon T. Jackson gave me some advice Alex Edelman gave me some advice on this. Shout out to all the people I know. Brandon T. Jackson. Shout out to Brandon, man. Brandon was like. I was like. I asked him, I said, yo, so what's your one thing? He's like, if they don't laugh, just keep going.

[B]

Just keep going. Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, fuck, they might not laugh.

[B]

I just have a feeling if they don't laugh. I could see you be like, why aren't y' all laughing? Y' all didn't think that was funny? I thought it was funny. I've been preparing for the last two weeks. No, that's not. Like, I could see you. I could see you going completely off, so. But I. You'll be funny. I'm not worried about you being funny.

[A]

Just. Just you. You are. Hey, I don't know why Google Docs did that. Hey, what was the response to the Karen Bass interview? Skunk. You know all about it. Remember what we.

[B]

Oh, I. Oh, I wasn't. I wasn't telling my funky story last week. Yeah, that was you.

[A]

Yeah. Well, that's probably why. See, that makes sense.

[B]

That was you.

[A]

See, but you just deepening because maybe it called me a call.

[B]

Makes sense. As a coon.

[A]

Hold on. No, I never said that. What I'm saying is that if you're saying that it called me a skunk because it knows that I had some stank with me, then by the law of deduction, you would have to be saying that. I never said that.

[B]

What's the law of deduction?

[A]

You said it. See, this what happens.

[B]

Go ahead. Not say. It applied to you, not to me.

[A]

You. Well, I'm saying. Okay, so that's the way it goes. You know how that goes.

[B]

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[A]

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[A]

by the way, we don't have any interviews. I do want to know. I want to do a quick.

[B]

Oh, the Karen Bass interview.

[A]

What were people saying about the Karen Bass interview? John Legend liked it.

[B]

I think people who are tapped in shout out to John liked it.

[A]

Great guy.

[B]

Yeah, John's great. Tapped. I think people who. I think people liked it. I think people on the Internet have a lot to say. Like, just, like, are already just choosing to not listen to Karen regardless and don't like her at all.

[A]

Right. I'll likely vote to her left.

[B]

But I thought she did a really good interview, and I got a lot of that feedback, too. People were like, wow. I was really impressed at how she handled the questioning and how she answered it.

[A]

But look, the reality is this. There are two things that I'll say. Number one, you have to have the conversation and interrogate power and see where people are going. You want to make sure that when you're sitting in front of someone that you're not talking to Gargamel or somebody like that that doesn't really care about people or want them to do well. So that's the reason why you have the interviews. You interview the people. I will say that I actually think some of the stuff, the more that I thought about it, that she's saying about Spencer Pratt is actually unfair.

[B]

Go ahead and make the case for Spencer.

[A]

I'm not making the case for Spencer. Let me tell you what I'm making the case for. I'm making the case for the idea of someone who sees something happening in their city that they don't like and goes, I'm gonna run for office.

[B]

There's nothing wrong with that. That's not what she's saying Spencer is doing. She's saying that Spencer is exploiting people's pain and their struggle in order to further his campaign, which I agree with.

[A]

Well, this is what I would say, perhaps. But I'll say this. It. If he's motivated, and this goes for anyone, forget about Spencer Pratt. If he's motivated by a specific happening to run for office, then you have to make that a part of your story. Now, I did see something that said the Airstream that he went out and got and all of that stuff that. That was specifically for the optics.

[B]

Well, that's what I'm saying.

[A]

But what I would say about that. Think that's a fair criticism. But what I would say about that is that we have to levy that criticism then across the board. And that means anytime a politician goes, you know what I'm the son of a single mother. You know what I was homeless. You know what I was this. We should say stop right now. We don't care about that. We don't care about you leveraging that community or that thing that you're tied to in any way to make your point. Just tell us what you're gonna do for the people.

[B]

So the only thing I would say to that is, you're right, cuz it's funny cuz when we would talk about, you know, the Texas senate race, you always would be like, I don't wanna hear about how you grew up with this mom and this socioeconomic status and that. The thing with Spencer is there is a lie to it. If you're the person running for mayor coming out and saying, I was a single mother and I raised two kids, that is true. If you are, that is a part of your story. If you are purchasing an air, allegedly purchasing an Airstream on the property that was burned down and saying this is how you live, when the reality is you come from a family with money and you're in a beach house, you know, like you're going, I don't know if you fully live there, but you're at your parents beach house or you know, you had millions and millions of dollars or that you were house poor and you didn't have insurance on your property because you did make whatever changes and I'm not here to, to defend the insurance company. I don't think that that's fair. But whatever it may be, you didn't have that and now you're telling false truths or creating a false narrative that has half truths in it in order to further your campaign. It's misleading. That's not right. I don't think it's a problem to say I'm running because I lost my home in the Palisades fires. I feel like the governing bodies mishandled it and I want to be a part of the change. There's nothing wrong with that. Spencer's going doing more than that.

[A]

Well said. Number one, they lost their house. So that's the first thing. If that had been a lie, I would say everything else that's built on that is unfair. Number one, they actually did lose their house.

[B]

They did.

[A]

Okay, so the house was lost. Number two, it was reported last summer that they couldn't afford to rebuild. Now if they were house poor, they then they were living in a financial situation that I guess wasn't.

[B]

And they didn't have insurance.

[A]

Right. And they didn't have insurance. They were Living in a financial situation that I guess is some people who would. I guess the criticism is that that's irresponsible. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, the house is worth more than they got from. Than they ended up getting in a settlement. Right.

[A]

It's difficult for me to be hypercritical about that because so many Americans are in that situation. Right. And so many Americans that don't have what Heidi Montag and Spencer Pratt have are in that situation. Now, when you move away from that, if there are theatrics that are involved in his story because he wants everybody to pay attention to the plight of someone who lost their home, then I guess what I'm saying is I look at all of that stuff as kind of par for the course politically. Right. It's, you know, you tell something that is a truth, and then you blow that truth up to make it fundamental to your story. When you were homeless, were you homeless for a year? Were you homeless for two years? Were you homeless for a month? The question is, how formative is the experience? I'm not talking specifically about the mayor, by the way. How formative is the experience of being unhoused on you? Do you understand the experience? Because you were unhoused, even if for a day or for three days or whatever. So all of this stuff, to me, when I look at this stuff, I go, what undergirds it? What's below it? And if I'm looking at someone that said, I lost my home, this city isn't run the way that I think it should be run, I'm gonna run for mayor. I have no problem with that. The only thing I would have a problem with is policy. Policy is the thing that gets me.

[B]

Yeah. The only other thing, if I was gonna give a criticism to that response from Mayor Bass, it would be. It was kind of like a I'm not taking that seriously response. And I think we live in a time where we currently have a president that people really thought he couldn't win back in 2016. They didn't take it seriously. And it wasn't just that so many people voted. It's also that a lot of people didn't vote. And the reality is there are people that are upset. And the reality is that social media does have influence and power, and there's a lot of misinformation out there. And I do think that you have to take that seriously. Even if you think it's a joke that this person's running, even if you think that there's no possible chance, even the way that the System is set up with, like, the top two move forward unless you get majority of the vote. It's like, I just. I think that that could be an error on her behalf. Like, I didn't like that. Like, I. I mean, I didn't. I didn't need her to defend herself, to defend her campaign against Spencers. But I do think that you have to take that seriously because he does have money behind him. He does have popularity and. And a little bit of momentum, I guess.

[A]

I guess a little bit. We have. We're. We're interested in having all of the candidates for mayor.

[B]

Oh, I would love for him to

[A]

come on Spencer as well.

[B]

Yeah, why not? Why not?

[A]

You like him. You like the Hills.

[B]

What's your thoughts? I liked the Hills back in the day. Yeah.

[A]

Who is the who from a reality show do you think actually would make a good mayor or governor or whatever? Pick somebody. Pick somebody from a reality show that you think would make a good mayor, a good governor, good president.

[B]

Um, I don't know.

[A]

You have no clue.

[B]

Self included. I would not be. I would not be good.

[A]

You don't think that you would be mayor Rach? Mm.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Mayor. Big Rach.

[B]

I don't want politics. Big Rach. I don't like politics. Big Rach for mayor, and I wouldn't want to marry somebody in politics.

[A]

Can I tell you something? Do you know where. Do you know where you would shine as the mayor of the city?

[B]

Tell me.

[A]

When you come into the city and the mayor welcomes you, have you seen that? That is where you would shine. Welcome to Los Angeles. I'm your mayor. Big Rach. Rachel. Lindsay. Baba.

[B]

Big Rach. Rachel.

[A]

People would go crazy. Big Rachel, Lindsay.

[B]

You might go crazy for a different reason.

[A]

You would not. What you mean?

[B]

I mean, they might not like it.

[A]

You wouldn't date somebody in politics, you said, though.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know if I could be, like, the first lady of all of that. That's just not for me.

[A]

You wouldn't date.

[B]

I don't. I need to be a little bit. I need to be able to be reckless.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I just, like. I don't want to have to be looking over my shoulder or worried about what people are saying or thinking. I lived that life kind of when I came off the show the Bachelor, it was like, oh, are people paying attention if we're talking, if we're arguing, if we're not being affectionate enough? I hated that. Oh, I don't like that.

[A]

Oh, it's even turned up. So you don't think. Anyone from a reality show. You can't think of anybody from a reality show.

[B]

I'm sure there's somebody, because there are

[A]

people out there that black people.

[B]

I would like to see. Maybe Phaedra Parks as a mayor.

[A]

That would work, right?

[B]

I'd be entertained by that, and I think that she'd be good.

[A]

I'm gonna throw out a couple of names.

[B]

The charm, the smarts.

[A]

You tell me if they get your vote.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You said Phaedra park, you say yes. Jocelyn Hernandez.

[B]

What is she running for? Just no. Just no.

[A]

What do you mean? You don't even know what she's running for?

[B]

Just no.

[A]

So Jocelyn Hernandez, she's out. No. Shawnee o'. Neal,

[B]

perhaps she's already doing a First lady role.

[A]

First lady role. First lady of the church.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Perhaps that's political. There's politics in that.

[A]

I think that she could do that.

[B]

Yeah, I think she could, too.

[A]

Right? What's the guy's name? Matt. What? From the black guy?

[B]

Matt James.

[A]

Matt James. No, I think he would be a perfect politician type.

[B]

What level?

[A]

I mean, let's see. Governor Matt James now, like, Mayor Matt James.

[B]

I need to know. I need to know more about him. Are you just talking about looks?

[A]

No, I'm talking about, like, someone that has the aura of somebody that could be the type of politician that we're talking about.

[B]

No, he runs. I mean, like, his whole thing is a food platform. I don't know him to be tapped in in that way. Like, he's running around, literally running around. Because he runs marathons and, you know, biking and to the next restaurant. So I don't know.

[A]

Okay, last one. Puck.

[B]

Come on. Where is he?

[A]

What happened to Puck? Y' all know Puck?

[B]

They definitely have. Y' all know Puck is.

[A]

No, I'll think more about this. I'm gonna come up with. For Thursday. I'm gonna come up with a list.

[B]

I mean, there are some. I mean, Sean Duffy, he's in there.

[A]

Yeah, he's.

[B]

And Kit Trump.

[A]

No, Sean Duffy is married. Kit is on something else. Sean Duffy was on Real Married to the lady.

[B]

Road Rules.

[A]

Road Rules. But he's married to a lady from

[B]

Rules on Real World.

[A]

Real World, yeah.

[B]

Was she. Wasn't it Rachel? There's a Rachel who was in politics, too.

[A]

Cause she even had on that episode on that season of the Real World. She took them to, like, a Jack Kemp Republican meeting.

[B]

But she was fucking Rachel Campo. Stuffy.

[A]

She was fucking with Puck, and she was fucking with Puck a little Bit.

[B]

She was a little bit her and

[A]

Puck was kissing in the goddamn cave in the fuck.

[B]

Because she had a problem with like she was trying to. She took her.

[A]

See.

[B]

Oh my gosh.

[A]

This is what happens. See, she.

[B]

It's been so long.

[A]

If I, if I was, if I was Sean. Like, she took the spin with Puck, got a bad boy phase out of her and then she went with this maga nigga. She fuck with that shit. Okay, cool. I speak of reality tv, Donnie. Yeah. Paramount announced that love and Hip hop is coming to an end. It also announced that it's going to be celebrated before that happens with a six part special that's going to be released later this fall titled Love and Hip Hop the Final Chapter. What are you guys thoughts on this reality TV institution coming to an end?

[B]

Man, what an end of an era. I mean, I used to be an avid, avid loving hip hop watcher. Do y'.

[A]

All.

[B]

Y' all see. Y' all don't. Y' all don't. Do y'. All. This is the Z corner over here. Do y' all watch? Yes. But I didn't watch. Did you go back and watch in the beginning? Yeah. You did? Yeah. So you're very familiar. But I'm not caught all the way up. But I've watched at least the first three or four seasons.

[A]

Love and hip Hop, it's insane, you know, with love and hip Hop ending and with Basketball Wives ending, I wonder.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I wonder if those shows go far enough anymore.

[B]

Or is it that they're under Paramount and Paramount is cleaning house on maybe some of these types of shows.

[A]

In terms of what? They're black shows, but I think that, I mean, they're black shows, but if they were still like rabidly popular and all of that, I don't know that they would have a problem with those shows being on there.

[B]

Well, I don't watch anymore, but I feel like a lot of people particularly love in Hip Hop Atlanta, people watch that.

[A]

Yeah, look, I suppose that if the thinking is that Paramount wants to clean house of anything that is black, that is fine. I think that Issa Rae has a deal at Paramount, so I don't know

[B]

that that's maybe a certain type of black show.

[A]

Maybe.

[B]

But I'm not saying they're clearing everything black.

[A]

What I would say to something like this is that, I mean, you know, if we're talking about white, racist, whatever, they like this type of shit. And you guys, when I say this type of shit, Grace and love to love and hip Hop, but love and Hip hop is a show that's existed over a lot of time and I've had a lot of fun watching it. But it is not a show that is in any way challenging the status quo in terms. It's not a political show. It's not something that's. You know what I mean? I don't know that anyone that would be at the top over at Paramount would have a problem with love and Hip hop. That's like saying that they wouldn't want to make money off gangster rap. They definitely would.

[B]

Maybe. I mean, but maybe there is an image that Paramount. We don't know. We don't know what's gonna happen with Paramount as it continues to develop under this new reign over there under the Ellisons. But maybe they want a certain image. I don't know. But maybe it is ratings. I actually don't know the ratings with Love and Hip Hop. It's been on for 15 years. I. To be an avid watcher. I don't watch anymore. But I mean, you used to watch in the day more than anything. It just launched the career or at least put in certain names of. Into the pop culture zeitgeist of like, people that we like. We would never know. I would never know Erica Maina. I would never know Safaree. I would never know Jocelyn. I didn't know who Stevie J was really before. I know obviously he's a legendary, legendary music back in the 90s. But I did not know him until I watched the show. I didn't know.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

I didn't obviously, most famously, Cardi B. You have K, Michelle, who came from here. Ray J was on it, Soulja Boy was on it. Keyshia Cole, Daniel Gibson were on it at one point. I mean, so many people were on this show. Olivia. Jim Jones.

[A]

Jim Jones, yeah. Look, I think love and hip hop always. Love and Hip hop always had a balance of people that were made from love and hip hop and people that love and hip hop. Excuse me. People that love and hip hop made. And also people that made love and hip hop. Meaning. I actually think that Safaree. Because of Nicki Minaj, that a lot of people knew Safaree.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that.

[A]

Yeah, that a lot of people knew.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

But not like that won't know Safaree because, you know, after Nicki Minaj and Safaree goes on there. I think even for Cardi B, Love and Hip Hop was. How can I put this? Cardi B was a very interesting Love and hip hop case for me. Because it mattered for her. But it almost was like minor league baseball for her a little bit. It was like, cardi B gets on love and hip hop and it's a big thing. But she was blowing up so much before lovin hip hop on social. Right?

[B]

But I did not follow her on social. So you have to, like, understand, like you at the time you're working for tmz, you're very tapped into everything. But I don't know what year Cardi B got in. Maybe 2014, 11. Cause I feel like. I feel like the Bodak yellow came out 2016. When did she come out? 2015. 2015. Because bodak yellow came out. So I learned she was a big Internet personality from love and hip hop. But it just depends, like, where you consumed your content. I wasn't a big social person then, but I was a big love and hip hop thing. And so living in Texas, all of that, I just wasn't tapped in to that type of entertainment, I guess media when it came to social media. So I learned about her from here. So I would push back against that. Cause then I was like, wow, she's so funny. Let me learn more. Oh, she has a big social media presence. Totally didn't know that before I watched the show.

[A]

What I'm trying to say, I'm not saying that love and hip hop wasn't. It didn't help Cardi B. Of course it did. What I'm trying to say is that that was kind of like she didn't stay on there very long, right?

[B]

Yeah, maybe one year, Two years.

[A]

One year, Two years.

[B]

She blew up next year.

[A]

Exactly. I think that love and hip hop for Cardi B was more of. Let me. When I said this, this her first shot at the pros, it was like her shot at minor league celebrity because she was going somewhere else. And like minor league, actual celebrity coming from social now, she's big enough to be on this show. She's a presence on the show now. She moves on and does more stuff. It's not a shot to her, it's not a shot to the show. I just looked at it when I saw her on there. I knew that it was a clear stepping stone because of the way people were talking about Cardi B and the way they talked about her after. What I think though, is, number one, the ratings and the kind of cultural share that some of these shows had have been declining. But also Zeus, Crowded love and hip hop.

[B]

I thought about that.

[A]

That's what I was saying earlier, like, Zeus, crowded love, hip hop. Out of. Out of the paint a little bit. Because love and hip hop actually doesn't go far enough for people now. Like what we used to see the love and hip hopification that we would call of black culture. Of culture, period. People fighting and stuff like that. Well, when you on love and hip hop and you fight, the production come break the fight up and then they talk about the fight. They might want the fight, they might act like they don't want the fight, but they want the fight. They want the drama and stuff like that. But the production come break it up, Zeus and all of that. It caters to the people that like, nah, let them fight. And now I think that those shows actually feel kind of tepid and tame when they are compared to what you can get on social media and what you can get on a subscription service.

[B]

I will agree with that. I thought about Zeus when it came to that, because there's also just like a line like, remember when we talked about Erica Mena and she was making. Doing the monkey thing with the rapper. I can't think of her name. She called her a monkey.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that was a line that it was like, this has to go this. And I'm not saying that happens on Zeus, but I just think that there is. It feels like there are no boundaries when it comes to what's on Zeus as opposed to on network television. There's going to be a line like you're going to go too far. I will agree with that. But I also just think that what the magic of what made love and hip hop just seems to have gone back when it came. When it dropped in 2011, it was first off, like you, I really didn't see people argue or get into it like that. Like Chrissy, Jim Jones girl was a star. Like the way that she was down. So it's like we already had. We Fly High. We knew Diplomat. So you get Santana, you get Jim Jones. And we were getting like this sneak peek behind the scenes. They were like the driving force of it. And then it created other stars. Right. We learned about Yandy and then there was the Mendeezz of it all. And you know, Olivia we knew as a singer. So it just was like this sneak peek into hip hop, which we'd never really seen before, and their significant others and how they. Their lifestyle and how they hang out together. And I just had never seen anything like that. And then I feel like we so got away from that and it felt like love and hip hop was. Became a caricature of what people think Love and hip hop was. We just got so far away from that. And I think that's another reason that it just. Maybe it's just run its course. And all the other shows are. I mean, New York's not there anymore. Hollywood's not there anymore. You just got Atlanta and Miami, I think.

[A]

Yeah. So look, what I always looked at it is love and hip hop was kind of like a show about the middle class of hip hop, which no one had ever really cared about before then.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You were a rapper, you popped for a long time, and then when you didn't pop anymore, you were done. And we can make fun of the fact that you weren't around, that your shit didn't work out. I don't know why it seems that, like, rap is one of the main things to. Where everybody kind of gets to the end of their run, but then everybody is also penalized for getting to the end of their run. Everybody gets to the end of their run in hip hop, you might. Besides, you know, you see a couple people still going, Nas still going, Jay still going, the clip still going. Like, you see a couple of legacy artists now that are. That are extending those rungs, but for, like, to be like a big rapper, you get two, three albums. But when it comes to that, oh, this niggas wash, whatever, whatever or has been never made it. But love and hip hop, you got to see inside of, like, the middle class of hip hop. The people that are still doing shows. The people like in the struggle. Yeah. The people that are like Stevie, Jeff, that did all of this incredible, amazing work, but maybe you didn't know about it exactly. Right? And so their mating habits and who they been with and whatever. You see some people that like, oh, my God, I didn't know they were with this person and all of that. And it was funny and it was cool. After that, though, there became a. After the legitimate examination of that, there became like, they. How can I put this? People started trying to become a love and hip hop celebrity because there was an economy around that. It wasn't. And there's nothing wrong. That's what happens to every show, right? Every show that happens to every show. Now getting on love and hip hop is the goal. It's like what you want to do.

[B]

That's what it felt like, as if you were watching it.

[A]

It is the goal. You want to get there. And now it's kind of less like, whatever it is. But that happens to everything. I enjoyed it when it was on. I never ever, ever and still don't I still don't like the criticism that there is some specific evil to shows like this. I don't.

[B]

Well, you know how I feel about Zeus. But this. I watched it. I didn't think it. And to your point, which, you know, I think was. I love that you said, like, the middle class rapper, but that's why I said, like, the struggle. We saw it. Like, we saw somebody who had such a hit that was everywhere. That Ballin became from We Fly High just became a terminology that we used all the time. Even more so. I mean, we used it before, but like, even more so after that. And then you see Jim Jones, you know, not at the same place, or Jewels says Hannah not at the same place. And then you see them working out their personal struggle with their girl and, like, kids and all like, it just it. I don't. Why would there be a problem with. Why was there. I think the show became something else. To your point where I could feel like maybe it's a little bit more problematic because I felt like people were performing. I don't feel like I have a problem with authenticity and watching it in this way. I have a problem when it feels performative and like you're exploiting it.

[A]

Yeah, well, rest in peace. Love and hip hop. I just want to say this. People know both Jewels and Jim Jones were cultural phenomenon before they got to love and hip hop.

[B]

I had the biggest crush on Jewel, the Dipset phenomena.

[A]

Like, not even the Dipset Diplomats.

[B]

I named the record, and I know

[A]

that's the Diplomats, the Dipset. The Dipset had, man. It's three things in Baton Rouge that we used to see and we knew that niggas was on because in Baton Rouge, we got our own hip hop economy. Right. You could ask somebody in Baton Rouge who their favorite rapper is, and you could get to like five, six, seven people before you get somebody that you could go and see they video. Some people was fucking with Nussy Badass. Some people fucking with B. Lo MC Nero. Got a lot of. Got a lot of. Got a lot. You know what I'm saying? Webby, Boosie, Fox. We got a lot of people that we like. Right. And everybody liked the Nationwide guys, but we got a lot of people we like. But it was three things in Baton Rouge that you could see. And you knew somebody was on that different shit. Number one, N was coming with the Nelly I thing.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And they was wearing it, and I was like, yo, dawg, you know, but whatever. N also was coming with the 50 cent wife beater with the little. The shorter strap at the top.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

They was coming with that joint crazy. With the 50 Cent Wife Beater. The joint at the top. And also people was coming with the pink.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

On Southern's campus, people was coming with the pink. Pink bandana, pink. The Dipset had people going crazy. Everybody was trying to create their own little Dipset. And once again, we are a very, very culturally proud people. So we have our rappers that we care about, we have our lore and our rappers that we care about, but those movements. And of course, the Jay Z hat, jacket, jeans, fucking Timbs.

[B]

We always wore Timbs. We wore Timbs in Texas.

[A]

Well, I don't know Tim's. I'm talking about the. Remember the Jay Z era when he wore the Yankee hat and the jacket? Every nigga. I saw a nigga dressed like that in D.C. recently. Yeah, a couple weekends ago.

[B]

I don't know if Dipset went on tour. I would. I would want to go.

[A]

I bet. I bet Dipset. Dipset was legitimately kind of like a legitimate run to where it was like. Like, look at them. Look at they crew. Look at they crew. Dipset, bro. Whatever. All right, fuck it, Donnie. Let's talk about some white people. Yeah. Stay in the music post. Malone announced that he's hitting pause on his upcoming tour with Jelly Roll. He said in a post on Instagram, I don't have the time to finish it before the tour starts. We ain't ready for tour just yet. So I'm making the decision to push the tour back about three weeks to get this music done. Been making some badass shit for this music for this album. Can't wait to perform it for y' all again. Okay, I have many thoughts here.

[B]

Do you?

[A]

Yeah. First of all, both of these guys are in weird situations to me.

[B]

You think so?

[A]

I think so.

[B]

Okay, go ahead.

[A]

So Jelly Roll is. I think Jelly Roll was a lot cooler to people when we didn't know as much about Jelly Roll as we know now. Like, Jelly Roll now seems like he's kind of maga and we not accepting that from Jelly Roll, you know?

[B]

Well, who's we?

[A]

Jelly Roll exists in a really interesting place for country music. He's country music with tattoos all over his face and this sort of hip hop influence.

[B]

Cause he was a rapper first.

[A]

He was a rapper first. Right now if you are straight up cowboy hat. I got an alligator in the motherfucking flatbed. Dodge truck. Ford F150 cowboy boots going team pinning with the family body like a back row shit. There's a lot of shit you can get away with because you have a specific fan base. If you are Jelly Roll, just from your history and your esthetic, you're a little. You're a little hip hop adjacent. There's like black people got to like you a little bit because of where you coming from. There's a. There's some hip hop infusion into what you do. You're never going to be a pure country artist. So if you start fucking around and eating around the edges of. Of anti blackness even a little bit, you'll get de cooled on that side and then you're actually not pulling from the cool that people first thought that you had into the white languages. Post Malone is in the same situation at this point. Post Malone got crazy hits, is a big time huge artist. But Post Malone been showing us his ass for a little while. And nigga might be like, I'm cool on Post Malone. Like, I don't want to go out and watch white Iverson and the rest of this shit. Cause I know that we put Post Malone on and then as soon as he got on, he was like, that nigger music don't move me. And so I think that there's a little bit of cooling on. But neither one of these guys, to me, is a titan within the country areas. They like them, but they still got to operate a little bit different than what they do. I think for Jelly Roll, it was some political shit to where we're like, hey, we not really fucking with Jelly Roll. And for Post Malone, he's been a little anti hip hop. And to me, not very charitable to hip hop culture at all in the last four or five years. And I think that's affecting his ability to get people to come out and fuck with him. So

[B]

I don't think that black people are buying tickets regardless to a Post Malone Jelly Roll concert. They might be like, oh yeah, you know, there might be something that they see with Jelly Roll. And like, it's like, okay, like he's a little different and they might like him, but they're not going to. That is not the reason that. Because it's being reported. Like, Post is saying he wants to work on the album. It's not ready. He wants to have new music. He wants it to be right. It's a double album that's coming out, so that's why he's postponing or canceling these shows. But it's being reported that the ticket sales aren't good. And this is a stadium tour. I don't think that there are that many black people that are supporting either one of these artists, which is why there could be slow ticket sales. What I really think is that this is part two of the tour. They were on tour last year, so. And it's stadium. So I just think that it's harder to sell. Especially maybe if you went to the first part and you went to a different city, because they're still. They didn't cancel the whole second part of it. They're still going to other places. So I do believe that there's slower sales. And I just think that it's just hard to do a stadium tour. I think that the reason that Jelly Roll changed from part of his change from the hip hop to the country is because that worked. I think he became MAGA adjacent. We'll just say it looks that way. I think he went to country because that is easier. An easier sell than it was in hip hop. I think it benefits him that. Which is why we saw him get at the Grammys and say. And preach and talk about Jesus in the Bible. And then when he's in the interview room, he's sitting there and he's going, oh, you know, I don't. I'm not really on social media. I'm just a good old country boy. That image works for him in this country world. So I honestly just think it's part two of the tour and they just couldn't sell out. I actually don't think that for their audience in any way. Is this a reflection of whether or not people like them less. All of that benefits this country audience.

[A]

Well, apparently not, because they.

[B]

It's part two. Maybe they oversold it.

[A]

But what I'm saying is apparently not, because there's a couple of things here. Number one, I'm not necessarily talking about how many black people are gonna go out and see this.

[B]

That's why I said we.

[A]

I know I'm saying, right? So let me make it clear. And if I said that I'm talking about a specific group of people that like the country, hip hop, fusion shit that they do, those people are the most likely people to be turned off by just staleness on the side of Post Malone and more so with Jelly Roll. If I was looking at what you were saying, the only thing different between now and then, when they were selling, is that people are looking at Jelly Roll now. Like, no, if you're going to be the guy who is, like, super awesome and, like, is gonna go and testify on how Fentanyl is hurting families, if you're going to be this musical humanist, which is a part of your story in terms of, like, how you've had to take care of yourself, your past story and all of that stuff. Then we want you to say it's wrong to lock kids in cages. And you would not have to do that if you were more solidified in mainstream country music, because you wouldn't even be asked to if you were more solidified in mainstream country music. If you're even past Jason Aldean and all of those people, if you're Morgan Wallen even, right? If you. You are more solidified. If regular country music fans, they wouldn't even have those interrogations for you, but they're gonna have him for Jelly Roll because of where he came from and the story of how he got there. The story of, oh, I felt like this. I was on drugs. Look what the drugs did to my community. The history of Jelly Roll and all of that stuff. I think there's a group of people who would like Jelly Roll or Post Malone that aren't die hard hardcore country fans that are more people that like the sort of fusion of all of that stuff that enjoy with Eminem and all of that. Like, the question is, like, if Jelly Roll wants to go out now and put Eminem on stage with him, is em gonna wanna do that? Because if em is up there, he probably would. But if em. If em is up there on him, people are gonna be like, hey, man, we got sneaking suspicions that Jelly Roll could be announced as the DHS head at any time. And so we don't want you on stage with Jelly Roll. So I really do think that the change that we've seen since the last time that they went out is that people have these questions about Jelly Roll. And these are kind of the questions that they've been having about Post Malone too.

[B]

I don't. I think that they're going to. I think they're oversized like Jelly Roll. Headline Stagecoach. Last year, Post did Stagecoach. This year, Post also did stagecoach in 2024. Post hasn't had new music since 2024. Like, I just don't think that people are running to go spend a lot of money at a stadium tour, which is hard to sell out when you're not really putting out anything new, which makes sense of. Well, let me just. Wait, Let me just give y' all some new music and something to look forward to and some new features, and maybe it'll add something more to the stadium. That's honestly what I think it is. Like, you. You could have just gone to see Post as Stagecoach. You could have seen him last year. And it's gonna be the same music. It's not anything different. So I just think that's what it is. But we'll see. We'll see when. When he drops a new album. Let's see what happens. Let's see. Oh, if they. Not Jelly Roll Post, let's see if. If they rebook these tours that they canceled.

[A]

Maybe they will. I mean, shows like. Like Post, he got hits that he could do, right? But you know, it's like.

[B]

But are you going to spend all that money also? Like, it could be the economy, like part of people as people are figuring out what to spend money on. Maybe they don't want to spend all that money on a show they've already seen in music they've already heard.

[A]

All of that is. But one thing is specifically with Jelly Roll. I think it's true about Post too. But specifically with Jelly Roll right now, to me is that he's had some bad press and people are. There's a regular casual fan. That's ambiguous. I hear what you're saying.

[B]

Can I ask you this? Cause I was talking to somebody about this. Do you think. Obviously Jelly Roll has been in the business for a long time. Went from rapper. I don't know when. I don't know if he was in and out of jail or went to jail for a long stand in between, but came out. Now he's a country singer. You had to really be tapped in, I guess, to be following Jelly Roll before. But for the masses, it feels like he blew up pretty quickly. Do you think that there's something when you blow up that quickly that it's easy for you to fall off that quickly too?

[A]

No. Okay, well. And the. Well.

[B]

Cause it does feel like if you. Again, if you weren't tapped in, it's like, where did he come from? He came out of nowhere and everybody loves him and everybody wants to be featured with him. All of a sudden it was like Jelly Roll was everywhere. He was like the darling of music. And it happens so fast. And I just wonder when stuff happens like that. Just curious. Cause I was having this conversation with someone. Is it quick for you to also turn on them? Quick. If they love you, then they hate you, then they love you again.

[A]

It's all dependent on. That's why I'm talking about the political stuff. Like, I'll give you an example of that. Somebody we just talked about, Cardi B. Seemingly Cardi B came out of nowhere right she built herself on Cardi B. What happens with Cardi B is Cardi B is not trying to be everything to everyone. Cardi B solidifies her section of her fan base. Cardi B goes on. You ask Cardi B a political question, she gives you an answer. She goes on, and she has, like conversations with politicians and she does all of that stuff. She goes, look, if you're not fucking with me because I don't feel like, like this terrible thing should happen, or I'm not like, anti trans or I'm not like, if you don't fuck with me cause of that, cool. Everybody that fucks with me, despite the fact that I have the politics and I'm comfortable in my own skin, let's see if we can take those people and fill up an arena or a stadium. She doesn't shy away from it. It doesn't do the whole thing, which makes people go kind of like, you're fake. Her authenticity shines when you ask her a question because you know that you're getting a real answer. I think that when people blow up and more so, people start to learn things about them that they don't like, that that stuff is cool as long as people think that it's real. But if you start to look fake, then people go, I'm not fucking with it. This person is wishy washy or whatever. So I think there's a number of people that have blown up quick and fallen off quick. Yeah, some people didn't have the music. Some people we found out were boring. But there's also a number of people that have blown up quick and stayed around because they are who they are, you know? So, you know. But I think it's a good question. Okay, cool enough. All right, Donnie. It's getting. It's popping on Abby's show. Scott Jennings. Yeah, let's talk about it. Conservative commentator Scott Jennings. He kind of lost his cool on a panel with Adam Mockler on a recent episode of Abby Phillips's CNN News Night. Let's see what happened. I mean, honestly, they have been at war with us for 47 years. We all know that Scott Jennings is more than happy to defend a war

[B]

with a country that starts with the letters IRA that we are currently failing

[A]

that is going to put us trillions

[B]

and trillions of dollars more in debt.

[A]

I was only a few years old

[B]

while you were in the administration defending prior endless wars.

[A]

Now this war is failing.

[B]

Eight weeks is endless to you.

[A]

Okay. You said it was going to have the attention span of a net. I Debated you on TV four to six weeks ago and you said we were weeks away from it. Now you're making condescending remarks because you can't defend the fact that this war is not going your way. Wait one more time. Not knowing.

[B]

Not going.

[A]

One political concession.

[B]

Honestly, I'm not going to have this guy's. Everybody, everybody, hang tight.

[A]

Honestly. Wow. Political violence.

[B]

That's what you're calling it.

[A]

That right there is a perfect example of why we have a political violence problem in America.

[B]

Ooh. Speak on it.

[A]

So, Scott, you have, look, there's a group of people out there that are not going to. And shout out to Adam. There are a group of people out there that believe that the niceties and the decorum that is needed to maintain American lies from power and political hackery. That is not worth it. There are people that say, no, no, this is the truth. The truth is we can't talk about anything that befalls the president or the right without talking about the framework of political grotesquery that we live in and why we live in it. That there's no need to. Both sides, every single issue. There's no need to pretend that one thing is the way that it is and it's not the other way. That all of this, that like being in a situation to where you maintain this weird and synthetic pathetic decency is stupid. Here's the truth. Here's what happened. And this is something else that Adam did to Scott that you. That people on those types of shows normally don't do.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Get your opinion out of my face. This is what people do. He didn't say this messaging is wrong. He didn't say this idea is wrong. He didn't say this mode of thinking is wrong. He said, you are wrong. He said, you know better. He said that you are here and you are doing the work for an administration. You are puppeting, being a puppet, should I say, for an administration and there's something in it for you. He directly, directly called out Scott and said, hey, not only are you doing this now, this is what you do. You've done it before. And he broke Scott. He broke Scott. Because what we never, ever want to interrogate or explore in these types of situation situations is that the person that is lying to you, the person that is obviously lying to you, because in the situation that Scott Jennings and so many others are in right now, you can't lie your way through this. You can't say that inflation isn't up, the numbers are there. You can't say that the War isn't going poorly. It is. You can't. These are things that are evident to everyone. The only question left is, why are you saying the opposite? What is the goal that you are invested into? Why are you being willfully ignorant about this? And what does it say about your character? He pushed Scott there and he broke him just because he refused to relent to some weird sort of truths that exists when you're having a conversation across political lines that some people get into where they feel like you have to entertain somebody else's point, even though it's obviously bullshit.

[B]

Do you think that Scott Jennings should still be on the show? Because that is the question. And what's being litigated on social media? Like, I'm not here. We're not here. I'm not gonna be like, abby this, Abby that, as I'm seeing people doing. I think it's just a question of, should Scott Jennings be on that show?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why? Cause you want one more chance to talk to him.

[A]

Nah, nah. Me and him and all. That's not it. He should be. Cause it's pussy not to have him there.

[B]

So this is why I will say. I say no. And it's something that you pointed out when you said it's an example of. You called it political violence. Is that what you said?

[A]

This is how we have political violence?

[B]

Well, you said this is how we have political violence. So to me, I mean, I think that you can have that show and you can have a person who is a Republican, who is conservative, who is maga, who supports the Trump administration. You can have that varying side from the right and still have an entertaining show without Scott Jennings. I think that what happened last week crossed a line, and I think that you were right. It does contribute to or show, like, why we have political violence. And to move further with him, rewards that type of behavior and almost normalizes it or desensitizes it and makes it okay. Scott Jennings is not the only talking head from the right that can be entertaining on that show. You don't need him. And I think that I get the concept of the show, which it's like a. I don't know, like a. Like a sports debate show, but with politics. And I understand the entertaining nature of it and why it goes viral and why they revamped Abby's show to do this. I like that. But I don't think that you need a Scott Jennings to have a successful show. And I think we're turning the corner where it's the opposite. And to me, this line Was the corner, of course. Did I see. Did I enjoy seeing Scott Jennings throw a temper tantrum on television and lose his cool? Absolutely. Did I enjoy the fact that it was at the hands of a well informed, younger, factually prepared, progressive guy? Yeah. Did I enjoy that the only line of defense that Scott Jennings had was to. To curse some. Somebody, and, like, it'd say, fuck you, and then turn to Abby and say, make him stop, which is basically what he did. Yeah, I enjoyed all of that, but I think that it almost at a point, I'm gonna use the word cheapen, and that might be the wrong word, but it also, to me, it's cheapening the show to allow a Scott Jennings character person on there. I think that I like the back and forth, but I don't think it's gonna be as effective. I think what makes headlines is more Scott Jennings cursing him out than it does the point that you made of how successful he was and pointing out you were the problem and Adam having the facts to back up and contradict the things that Scott was saying. Because Scott just talks, right? Scott says things. We talked about it last week. Scott said that the people say racism is over. We cannot platform that kind of rhetoric anymore. In my opinion. You can maybe defend. Try to defend what the Supreme Court did, and fine, you're in your right to do that. But to sit on. To look at a black woman, be on her show and say racism is over is a problem. The fact that Scott Jennings got to come back to the show on Friday is a problem. Scott Jennings is a spoiled brat, and I think to keep him on the show shows that it is designed to almost, like, encourage this type of behavior. The number of times that he's on the show where he gets to sit on the show, the fact that he gets to tell Abby, make him stop. You know, that's not the first time that he's done that. That's not the first time he's turned to Abby and said, like, make this person stop. The way that he talks to other panelists, the way that his demeanor is with other panelists, he gets what feels like preferential treatment. And he acts like he is the entitled panelist. He acts like he's above everybody else there. And he acts as if I can see say or do everything. Almost like Trump on the panel. He. He is the Trump of the panel. He acts like he can say and do anything and nothing will happen to him. And the fact that he was right back on the show, like it was nothing furthers that. And Fuels that type, that perception. He is above it all. And if anybody else on the panel turned and said like if you go on the show the next time and you say the N word cuz you don't say that because there's a level of professionalism that you have when you're on that show. It it you don't say like we do here. If you did that, I wonder if you would be asked back the next day.

[A]

So this is a fundamental disagreement that we have. Number one. There's just some things about the show that I know that a lot of other people might not know.

[B]

Sure. You're on it, you're a part of it.

[A]

It's not easy to get guests from the right to come on the show. It's not easy to get them at cnn. It's not easy. Scott is also a CNN contributor. So he's not just on Abby's show, he's employed by cnn, which is even

[B]

more of a problem.

[A]

Like number one. But see it's not a problem.

[B]

No, no, no. I'm saying what he did, saying fuck you and that he is a contributor and goes on other shows like you know better than that. Like he, that's what I'm saying. Not that he. I don't mind him being on other shows.

[A]

So this is my deal. So one time I was on there and John was hosting the show and the President had said bullshit. And then John said bullshit and then Scott said Hey, my 11 year old son is in the green room room. And to me that was interesting even in that situation because the President said he didn't have a problem with it. John, the host repeats the President, he was filling in for Abby. He repeats the President and Now it's my 11 year old son that you have an issue with it. I fundamentally do not believe in, we shouldn't platform people like this because that has lost and there's no way around it. We can talk about it, we can discuss it. That lost it, lost. It just doesn't work in certain cases. I can understand the need to want to do it. I'm not talking about like hate speech, terms of service on a social media place. I'm not talking about that. I'm not talking about whether or not you should be subjected to the N word when you go on Twitter. I'm not talking about Chud the builder or any of that type of shit. I'm talking about the fact that we don't need to platform these people or these people shouldn't be able. We don't Talk to them or whatever, whatever. It lost. Because what those people did, those same people, is they went to other places where people would platform them and they made their cases without any pushback, and America bought it. That happened. I'm not making that up in my mind. That's what happened. So what has to happen now is what just happened. Adam made Scott look like a fucking fool. That's what has to happen. Americans have to see someone so desperate to defend something that is clearly not working that they lose it. And then they have to say, why is he so mad? And that is working. That is working. The actuality of, hey, you're a little bit more poor than you were. This war is costing you $6,000 a year. Do you feel good about it? Like the. The tariffs that are slowing down the economy that Trump said were going to be a boon for America? Do you feel it? That conversation is working, and it works even better when you question them on it. There was another clip that was on CNBC not too long ago where Pete Buttigieg was talking to think somebody from the treasury, it might have been somebody that was just on the show and he's telling me, he was like, well, inflation's up. And the guy's like, nah, we were left with inflation from Biden. And he goes, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Inflation had already come down to around 2829 at the end of, of. Of the Biden Harris administration. It's up to three, three now, and it has been climbing. Even if you give it a little cushion and you say that inflation was around 3 in January, had crept up a little bit.

[B]

Bit.

[A]

It's gone up over Trump. And Sorkin had to jump in and be like, listen, you can say whatever you want to say. The math is the math. Inflation is up. Watching that guy short circuit, if at all your vote can be garnered, if you're curious enough to be like, what's working for me? Then you see that and you go, they're losing. There's nothing that they can say. If we're having debates about how America should go, what's humane, what's human, people first, then we have to be able to talk to people and poke holes in their arguments. And to me, Scott, there are times that people have been kicked off that show, but it's had to do with violence.

[B]

Didn't you just say that this contributes to political violence?

[A]

No, but I'm saying it contributes to political violence. To me, rhetorically. The only other time that I remember somebody not being invited back on the show is when Ryan Garderski said to Mehdi Hassan, the beeper. The beeper thing, that's almost like a terroristic threat type of situation.

[B]

So first I want to say this. I did not say that you shouldn't have platform voices from the right. I literally gave a spectrum of all the voices from the right. I think that that is necessary. I said, Scott crossed a line to me where you can replace him. I'm sure it is. I'm not going to argue you about it hard getting people on the right on the show. I think if somebody had the position that Scott has on that show where he's basically like the second person, then I think you could get somebody on that show that would defend what the right is doing right now just as intensely as Scott would. I think Scott did something I agree with you with. His rhetoric contributes to political violence. He threatened him. And whether we say he lost his cool and that was great to see and it showed that he was rattled and that what he was saying really bothered him and he looked like a fool. It still is. Like, that's how he's talking to him. And it's basically, I've yielded Scott on the show. You've yelled at him. You haven't been like, you haven't threatened him. It was a threat. It was a threat, it was a threat.

[A]

So to me, I get what you're saying to me. I need you.

[B]

Do you feel like you do you feel like. And I guess, and this is maybe where it's coming to. I feel like again, I truly believe Scott is given preferential treatment and everything about him on that show and the way he behaves shows it to me. And I just gave a laundry list of those things. I think you need right voices. I would like if it was even a back and forth right, left on this side, on one side, right on the other side. I like that. I enjoy the setup of the entire show. And I think that it is necessary and I think it's productive. I think it forces us to have conversations within our friend groups, on podcasts, in group chats, whatever, and see a different perspective that is healthy and it is necessary. Scott's gone beyond that. And if somebody can get kicked off the show for saying something that implies violence, right, that is what Scott did too. Because the question is, if you say, you get your fucking hand out of my face or what? If I was Adam, he handled it well, I would have been like, or what? Cuz what follows after that? What the fuck are you gonna do right Cuz it's a threat, right? You should not be able to do that. I'm sorry. And I don't feel like you think you could say you could act like that.

[A]

Who you.

[B]

Do you think you could act like that on television?

[A]

Yeah, I do. I think that I could probably do that on that show. As a matter of fact, I think I would be. If I went up there as much as I was asked to go up there, I would be on there like all the time, right? I think they actually, to be honest, for me, the only reason it wouldn't be CNN and this is the real difference for me, it wouldn't be cnn. Had I done that, that would have, would have admonished me.

[B]

It would have been the public.

[A]

It would have been the public and the public would have said, van, is this because even when I yelled at Scott over the zip tying thing, right? It was the public that said, look at Van losing his cool. Van is a gigantic ape monkey nigger who can't control himself. We've seen this in the past or whatever. So when I'm thinking about the way I'm acting on a show like that, I'm not thinking about that's not gonna happen to me.

[B]

Do you think networks respond to public perception? Cause see, right now black folks are mad at what Scott Jennings did. At least that's what I'm seeing. Maybe cuz I'm on black threats, I don't know. But I think if there's enough pressure, they would remove you.

[A]

Well, I mean, yeah, remove me is easy. I'm not a contributor, so they can just stop asking me to come up there. But I think the reason why they, they like me is because when I'm up there in the Times that I do respond, I inject a little chaos into it. And they want that type of thing to exist.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

I will say, but you ain't. I'm making, we're making almost two different points. If someone feels like Scott Jennings crossed over and went past what should be accepted on the show, that's fine. I'm not that different people. I don't believe that. Remember where I come from, Where I come from, we used to be at each other like that all the time. So I have no issue with that. I have no issue with that whatsoever.

[B]

I don't know what I'm saying.

[A]

Well, it is what you're saying.

[B]

Well, I don't mind combativeness, I don't mind the chaos, I don't mind the debate. He's setting a precedent. So Like, I come on the show, I'll be like, hey, don't fucking talk to me like that. Get the fuck out of my face. Why can't I. Why can't we all talk to each other like that on television? I would never come back, be asked to come back.

[A]

But if you said like to me, the question is if you said, like, hey, the fuck out of my face with that, I don't want. That's a conversation for you and I to have. Like, you're a human being. I'm a human being on tmz. Like the Kanye thing. Like the Kanye thing. That's me standing up. That's me standing up and addressing him. That's me taking the show into my own hands. Standing up, addressing him, calling him out. People liked it. It was respectful because they felt that it was righteous. But in a lot of other places, I want people to remember this. In a lot of other places, that would have been fireable because that was an interview. Even though Kanye was turning around and addressing us, that was an interview where the only people whose mics were on at that time were Harvey and Charles. Yeah, I remember it was Harvey and Charles mics that were up, and if their mics were the only one. When I started talking, J Rock had to run over with a boom and boom me. Because they weren't. The mics weren't picking up what I was saying. So I interrupted the show. I know that it's different, and I understand that it's different, but what I'm saying is those types of moments, to me should never be what the terrorism thing I do think is different, because that's making fun of a really bloody situation and saying that you hope somebody doesn't come kill Mehdi Hasan. That, to me, is very direct. And you kind of have to get that person out of there, because that's a different deal. This right here is past the point of what I would consider to be decency. I would have given an indecent response. Like, in that situation, I'd be like, okay, what happens if I don't?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then I would have stopped Abby. I'd have been like, no. I want Scott to expound on what happens if I don't get my finger out of his face. Because we can have a conversation after the show or during the break. It can go however you want it to go. Right. But Adam did it better. Adam did it better. Because Adam went. He's losing his mind. Because I'm right. You got to see that. To me, like, just. Just Just to let y' all know, he's going crazy. Because I'm right. Because I am. What I'm saying is 1000% true. He's done this before. This is the same type of person that in 2005 or 2006, sent your son and your daughter to die then. And he'll do it again if they tell him to. When are you going to stop listening to him? Completely shredded any sense of power or intellectual honesty that Jennings had. He lost it. And then Adam sat back and caked up off his victory, went viral two or three times over it, and made a name for himself. I just think that that's important.

[B]

I think it's important, too. And I think that he can be done and Adam will do it again. I mean, it's not the first time somebody's put Scott Jennings in his place, or Scott Jennings got frazzled, or he rolled his eyes or he did an insult. Like, that's what he does. It's just the first time he said he threatened somebody. And it should be the last.

[A]

Right. Okay. Fernando Mendoza. You like him?

[B]

Yeah. How could you not?

[A]

You fucking with him like that.

[B]

I'm just saying, like, you heard his speech, his Heisman speech. He just seems to have such a love for his community and his family. He seems to be super focused. What he did at Indiana, it just seems like a likable kid.

[A]

You like him, all right. He talked about the fact that he is not going to the White House. He's not going to go see Trump. Donnie played Fucking shit. The trip to The White House, 11th,

[B]

May, later this month, are you able to make that trip? Are you planning on going there?

[A]

I believe May 11th is the first day of OTAs, if I'm not mistaken. I have the calendar, however, you know, I. I mean, I don't have the calendar. Sorry. Well, maybe I do. I'm sorry. I gotta. I gotta check teamworks. If it is on the first day of OTAs, like I said, I'm on the bottom of totem pole here. I gotta prove myself. I can't. I can't miss practice. I mean, I'm not. I mean, I don't know, anything official. I don't have the calendar, but I. I just wouldn't as a rookie.

[B]

I don't think that's a good look.

[A]

And I want to, you know, try to best serve my teammates. And I don't know if that'd be accomplishing that goal because it's. You know. Although it'd be, you know. Yeah.

[B]

How can you argue against that what you mean? How can you argue that? It was a perfect answer. Like, they tried. They asked a political question, which maybe he anticipated or not. But the fact that he's like, listen, I'm at the bottom. I'm trying to win this starting position. It's the first day. I don't care if it's OTAs. I'm not going to set a precedent of I'm missing the first day of practice to go on a field trip. I'm here to work. You drafted me first. This is what a number one pick does.

[A]

This just shows how easy it. We always had this conversation. Shows how easy it is, man. It's like, you know, you would have asked me that question. If I'm Fernando Mendoza, I'd have been like, I probably gonna have Covid. I can't go. I'm probably gonna get it. I tell you guys, a lot of people around here, it's like, whatever. Like, I don't know, I might be hungry. Like, just. Just whatever. It's. You don't have to go. Yeah, you know me. Like. Like, you don't have to go. Right? He doesn't want to go. It looks weird for him to go. It looks weird for him not to go. So what he goes is he actually tricked everyone. He tricked everyone. He goes, I care about football, and I care about football more than I care about this. I got to do it. But it's that easy. It's that easy. And I just want to let you guys know, it's like, once again, this kind of goes back to what I'm talking about at this point. There are myriad reasons that one could decide they don't want to be in a photo with Donald Trump. It's not just cuz you're maga. Because I'm sure if we go back through Fernando Mendoza's tweets and people have. Then you're probably gonna find some stuff.

[B]

He's Cuban.

[A]

Yeah. Just like that.

[B]

Well, I'm just saying that isn't shocking that his parents immigrated from Cuba. He's grew up in Miami. He's got like. He talks about the story of his parents or grandparents and how they came over. Like, it's not shocking to me that there might be a. There would be some kind of Trump tweet.

[A]

There you go. Yeah, right Back in the day. Okay, cool. Cause, like, you know, we're having a lot of conversations about the Cubans, you know, about Cuban people and stuff like that. I just want to make sure that we allow individual Cubans to be.

[B]

I Said it's not shocking. I'm not going to assume. Since you said it, I'm like, okay, well, that's not shocking because you like

[A]

the Miami Sound Machine, right?

[B]

What do you mean you like them?

[A]

The Miami Sound Machine.

[B]

Why do you say that?

[A]

You must like, y' all like the Miami Sound Machine.

[B]

Don't know what that is.

[A]

What'd you say?

[B]

Don't know what that is.

[A]

Bernard, do you know the Miami Sound Machine? Do you know who that is? I'm not setting you up for anything. Get on the fucking mic.

[B]

He said no. He doesn't know.

[A]

You know the Miami Sound Machine? No, Donnie. Yes, I do. Thank you. Donnie, tell everybody who the Miami Sound Machine is. It's Gloria Estefan. Gloria Estefan. Man, you do know Rachel. I feel like you know.

[B]

You know.

[A]

You don't come on like, Gloria Estefan, the Miami Sound Machine.

[B]

Are you just naming people?

[A]

Hold for a second. Yeah.

[B]

Like, are you just naming people from Miami?

[A]

That's Gloria Estefan. You know who Gloria Estefan is?

[B]

Of course. And I like that you said her name. Last name correctly.

[A]

Okay, whatever.

[B]

Estefan.

[A]

Shout out to Gloria. But that's Gloria Estefan in the Miami Shine Machine. Y' all know this? Y' all know that?

[B]

Is that the name of the group? Of course I know who she is.

[A]

Okay, thank you. So, like.

[B]

But I didn't know. Is that. I didn't know she was a part of a group.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Sorry. It's like, of course I know who she is.

[A]

Okay. I'm just making sure. Cause now y' all got me.

[B]

I didn't know she was a part of a group.

[A]

Miami Silence.

[B]

I know the music.

[A]

Yeah, I know that. You know, like, it's. It's like Emilio Estefan, Gloria Estefan.

[B]

That's her husband, by the way.

[A]

Thank you. Rachel knows.

[B]

I know that. I didn't. I honestly didn't know that they had a group.

[A]

Okay. You know, I'm older than you guys. I'm not trying to, like, in any way, shape, or form.

[B]

It was established in 1975. Just FYI for you guys.

[A]

You know? You know, this is the same shit that Jomi tried to pull. Where's Jeremy? Get Jomi the fuck in here. This is the only. This is the same shit that Jamie. Jamie tried to pull over the Berry Gordy thing. I'm not saying that. You guys.

[B]

It's a little different.

[A]

It is a little different. It is. This is a little different. Okay, so I'm not comparing them. This is a little different. I'm just saying that, like, you know, it's not like I just pulled out. It's not like it was crazy. Like I just pulled out

[B]

of the 80s. Of the 80s. Keyword. Jade was born in the 2000s. Okay, but.

[A]

But see that.

[B]

But yes, I do know of artists, bands, groups, and stuff from the 80s. From the 70s, yes. But not all of them, you know, but if she. Gloria was. Then that would have been a different thing. You do know who she is, right? Who? Gloria Esteban. And I honestly. Miami Sound Machine, it sounded familiar, but I'm not going to say I really know. If I don't, I can't remember a song, and that's okay.

[A]

So let me. It's actually not okay, but let me

[B]

shake your body on the duna.

[A]

Yeah, you like. That's the Miami Sound Machine. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

I'm telling you, I remember.

[A]

So what I'm telling you guys is there's something that's happening, and I got to be honest with you, this is the way I feel. Is yomi here? There's something that's happening, and I got to be real. I know that I'm old. I know that I'm old. I also start to feel like, because I have a lot of cultural conversations with people, that there is some cultural laziness that's starting to exist, and we need to talk about it.

[B]

This ain't the hill to die on with that one. I'm sorry.

[A]

To me, it kind of is.

[B]

You also know a lot about the most random things, and this isn't random, but you do. But, like, you. And then you expect everybody to know those things, and then you get mad like, I am not interested in movies, and then you get mad at me. I'm sorry. I'm not. I've explained the history of it. That does not mean that I have to know everything about movies.

[A]

We do a pop culture podcast, but look, we don't.

[B]

Not about movies. There are two other podcasts that specialize on that, and that's why they won't let me anywhere near them.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

They know.

[A]

Can I say something about this? Okay, so, like, I was born 1980, okay? I was born in 1980. You know what, nigga? I'm gonna start.

[B]

Jade, what was the face? Jade.

[A]

Jade, I'm gonna start putting the wheel in your back, okay? Just to let you know, Jade, I'm gonna start putting the wheel in your back. All right? I'm gonna start putting the wheel in your back. J. I'm just letting you know I'm joking. Okay, okay. All right. I was born in 19.

[B]

You had the best. You were born during the best era. Just to be real, you had the best childhood. She's a fan of Reagan. Like you. You were teen in the nineties. Like, what?

[A]

So. But what I'm saying is, is that, like, what I feel like was happening then, that's not happening now. To a degree. It was. When I was born in the 80s, the movies and the culture was still to the point to where they were exploring the stuff that came before them. Even, like, small scenes in movies like Back to the Future. It was like, hey, he calls Chuck Berry in the most racist scene that's ever existed in any movie that's more racist than any scene that's ever said. The interview, what was it? The most racist scene in the movie ever is Marty McFly inventing rock and roll. There's never been a more racist scene in any movie ever because Marty McFly is playing Johnny B. Goode. I've said this before, and then it's, hey, look at this. This is the sound you've been looking for. And it's like, Marty McFly invented rock and roll. That's legitimately in that small scene demonstrating how white people stole rock and roll. But even that, he's playing Johnny B. Goode. All of that stuff, the people that are making the culture then are hearkening back to culture's past and educating you on it by watching the things that are in the present. And the culture and the stuff that we're doing now is not doing that. Like, they're not reaching farther. This is the 80s we're talking about. Like, we're not going farther in the back and making sure. Farther from the back. Oh, my God. We're not talking about stuff that came before. We're acting like the only stuff that matters is stuff that happened in 2005. On.

[B]

I agree with that. Sorry, Jay, go ahead. I agree. Of. To a certain extent. And the only reason. My. The reason why I agreed to a certain extent is because in our generation, there is a mass amount. I was gonna say this. Of content, of things, of movies, of tv, of celebrity, that nowadays it is hard to keep up with everything. I will say, growing up, I think there was that. I think we. I mean, I was watching. I mean, shoot. I got. My parents are old heads. Like, I was watching culturally prominent films, tv, this, that. And the third celebrity there was. You know, there's a list of actors and actresses that were like, you know them, hands down, music you were listening to. But as we got older and the Internet started to become what it is. It became harder to really have the need to go deep dive like that like you used to. I feel like the Internet kind of kept us from wanting to do that more and put us more in the now constantly. Yeah. The presence changed so much. I would 100% agree with you. I was gonna say the same thing. It's overwhelming right now. To keep up with pop culture is overwhelming in all sense. And you didn't even have social media back then.

[A]

Guess what, guys? I'll be honest with you. There are pop culture things that you guys know about. Stuff that's happening now that old man Van isn't caught up on. But when you catch me up on something, I go and I listen to it, and then I decide that I enjoy it. So this was.

[B]

I watched the King of New York. There you go, Jay. Don't let it.

[A]

But this is where you go. This was. You're not fucking with the movie.

[B]

It was cool.

[A]

Okay, but this is what I'll say. The only thing I'll say about this is different, is you guys are watching people, like, walk around the downtown of some street for, like, 10 hours in a row, right? Like, you guys are in that time. In that time, you could watch, like, school days. And I'm talking to people. I'm not talking to the regular people who have all this other stuff that's going on. I'm talking to, like, the people that's supposed to know about movies and culture and shit like that. It's a fucking Miami sound machine, all right? You know what I'm saying? It's like, you know something else about them that's interesting. We move on now, please.

[B]

What's interesting? Please tell me.

[A]

There's a show called Igor Li flaca. Okay.

[B]

Oh, God. You said it wrong. So who's fucked up now?

[A]

Well, I mean, I don't know how to speak Spanish.

[B]

Well, if you gonna say it, say it right. What did you say?

[A]

Igorda flaccaca.

[B]

Igora y flaca.

[A]

You know that shit.

[B]

Well, actually, you said li flaca.

[A]

Liflaca. Waka flocka? Igor is la gorda.

[B]

El gordo. It's gordo because it's a man and E flock.

[A]

You know this show?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so the lady on that show, Emilio Estefan's sister or niece. I saw her in Miami one time.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm just saying shout out to the Cubans and, you know, we. I don't want to put all the Cubans.

[B]

And what does that show mean? What does that mean.

[A]

It means the fat man and the skinny girl or something like that. I was on all of this shit. I was on Univision, Clearly. I was on. We've talked about it. La Flaca, Caliente, Control.

[B]

I can't say it like that.

[A]

Salvador Gigante. Rest in peace, Don Francisco. I was on all of this stuff, man.

[B]

Good for you.

[A]

And so I'm saying we just got to be more cultural.

[B]

No, again, we know some of the players.

[A]

Some of the players, anyway, so I'm just saying. Mendoza. I don't want to say that. All my Cubans.

[B]

I didn't say that. I said it's not shocking if that was the case.

[A]

That's true. That's true. What's your favorite. Who are some of your favorite Latinos?

[B]

I like them all sound like Trump.

[A]

Give me your hall of favorite.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Can I give you my.

[B]

You have your hall of fame. You have your top five.

[A]

I give you your top five Latinos of all time.

[B]

Of all time.

[A]

All time.

[B]

All right, go ahead.

[A]

Number five, Richie Valladding. Okay, I with Richie.

[B]

All right.

[A]

The day the music died, man. Number four, Be Real, Cypress Hill.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I with Be real, Cypress Hill.

[B]

All right.

[A]

All right. Number three, Jennifer Lopez.

[B]

So we're only doing music.

[A]

No, we're doing overall. We're doing overall. These are the people that I know. Okay, well, we do. We do entertainment.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Number three, Jennifer Lopez.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Number two, Antonio Banderas. Ooh. You know what I'm saying? Number one, Easy work. Number one, My favorite Latino. Ever try to guess?

[B]

Just tell us.

[A]

Number one. Selena.

[B]

I knew you were gonna say Selena, but you said Latino, and it threw me off because I would have been like, damn, I hope he puts Selena. But then you said Latino, which would be a man.

[A]

I don't know the jargon. So it's man. Latino.

[B]

Latino, AKA their language.

[A]

I don't know it. I know that. I listen to Bidi Bidi Bamba. I know that. I've supported.

[B]

It's not bumba.

[A]

What is it like?

[B]

God, like, you either gonna be down with them or not.

[A]

I am. She could sing, man. Selena was at work, too.

[B]

You didn't know who Selena was till she passed away.

[A]

That's not true.

[B]

I'm asking.

[A]

I did know who she was like, because everybody was talking about her. Everybody was like, just wait till Selena takes over.

[B]

Yeah. Because the songs had not come. The. The. Her English album songs did not come out.

[A]

But remember, I was watching. I remember a different version of Shakira. When Shakira first came out and she would be featured on like Caliente or Control or any of those places. Shakira was like a. She was like alt like her. When Shakira first came out, like she would be on there, she would be performing. And she like had like red hair and black. She was different. So like all of those shows even before were like playing. I was watching, you know, my Univision situation and they were playing Selena and they were playing all of these different. But I was cultural though. I used to watch Caribbean Rhythms. Remember that show? It had Rachel, she'd take you through the.

[B]

What was this on mtv?

[A]

This was on bet.

[B]

Bet. Okay.

[A]

So Rachel would take you through the different sounds of the Caribbean. You know, back up the big truck. Big truck. Patra. That wasn't a Patra song. But Patra would be there deep and fall back. You don't remember these records? These are records. I apologize. I'm cultural, man. Don't get me into my Asians. Shout out to them.

[B]

Let's move on. We'll do them next time. Cause you done said jargon for the Spanish language. You done said. I don't know what you said at first about the name of that show.

[A]

Which one?

[B]

You got Selena's name song wrong.

[A]

There was a song that used to come on. There was a song that used to come on the island. Come baby, come baby, baby, come, come, come baby, come on. You gotta give me love and you gotta give me something.

[B]

I like that song.

[A]

That's all like these are the records. So you know that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was that guy's called? K7.

[B]

That I cannot give you.

[A]

What's your opinion of colorism?

[B]

Can you ask the question a different way? What's my opinion of it? It exists.

[A]

Well, let's hear l' Oreal and Mona of Don't Call me White Girl and l' Oreal love the morning hustle. Talk about colorism, you know, light skinned.

[B]

On the Internet right now, you really. We can't say shit. Nah, nah. You. You don't know it unless you experience it.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And I feel like. Because I feel like we, you know, we learning. I love. I love being a black woman. I really appreciate it. I feel lucky. And we've learned so much about like colorism and how it affects us and how we think and you know what I mean? So it's like, I know that the darker you are in this country, the harder it is for you. Right? So I have a certain amount of like empathy for my sisters. Right. But I. What the bullying and shit. I Experienced was a thing too. Yeah, same. And I feel like we just in this weird place right now where it's like you have colorism, but then it's this thing that the light skins go through, but there's no name to it because of the privilege that's connected to light skin. That's right. So it's just like, it's like, even when they say pretty, I grew up fighting. Like, I didn't grow up getting the boys and nobody like me. It was like, you know, so that's how it was. She thinks she cute because she light skin.

[A]

And you're like, damn, I got to

[B]

fight for no reason because of my damn. Because in our culture, light skinned means

[A]

soft with men and women. I hate that though. Like, I hate the fact there's an even that division. First of all, I gotta say this off the top, I with Mona, heavy. Mona's one of the most talented people in the whole space. To me, I honestly, I know people are expecting a biracial rant here. I honestly.

[B]

Are they both biracial?

[A]

I don't even know if either one of them is, honestly. But I honestly don't know. I mean, I'm sure that this is true. Right? So this is somebody's personal experience. When biracial people reach out to me and they do, they tell me their stories of horror and how difficult it is growing up in the black community. It's not like I dismiss them. I understand what they're saying, but I mean, you tell me this has to do with like the beauty standard and how darker complected women feel, how I think some of this stuff, I guess that men, a man would never say this, but if we're being open and honest, I guess probably some of our lighter skinned brothers probably feel like, you know, why am I attacked for being light skinned? Like, why is that a thing? So I'm sure that this goes. This is in both sides and with both sexes. I don't know. I don't know. Like, what do you say to somebody's experience? I feel like a lot of people were like, y' all shut the fuck up with that light skinned shit.

[B]

Because here's the thing, it's. I think that they are definitely in their right to talk about, you know, maybe growing up. Not maybe they talk about being bullied growing up because of the way that they looked. And they're absolutely within their right to do that. I think the problem became when the term reverse colorism was mentioned and Mona says a quick Google let her know that that is not a thing. And it let her know why. And so she moved on from that. And l' Oreal was kind of like, yeah, reverse colorism. And I think the reason people are like, shut up. Which I would never tell them that, because I think that if you experience, you know, any kind of bullying, you should have. You should feel like you can talk about it and you can express it. I think it's the problem of the way they're talking about colorism, because it's almost as if. And especially if you believe the word reverse colorism, which Mona says she doesn't. So I want to give her that. It's almost as if you're acting like colorism is something that was invented within by us. It wasn't invented by black people. And colorism exists in other communities as well, but it wasn't invented by us. It was a tool of control. It was a racial tool of control. And it's historically rooted. And so if you. If you talk about it from that sense and you talk about how it was injected into our society and our. Or into our community in order to separate us, in order to make people feel. Black people, since that's what we're talking about, feel that some are better than the others because of the way that they look or because of their closeness to whiteness or being adjacent to whiteness, even physically, by working in the house. And then there were black people who played into that, who felt like they're being close, closer to whiteness, or adjacent to. It made them better. And therefore, you know, it worked. The racial tool of control worked. And then they treated black people who didn't look like them a different way. Then I think that that's where it's like, if you. If you come from that perspective, then you would stop having this conversation. Colorism is a thing. It absolutely exists. But when you get down to the why of it, then I think that that would shut this down. They should be able to be like, hey, I was bullied when I grew up because of the way that I looked, and it wasn't fair, and my blackness was questioned, and that made me feel a certain way. And I think that we should hold space for that. I was bullied when I was a kid by black people not because of how I looked. I looked black, but because of my being adjacent to whiteness. Because of the school that I went to or what my parents did or because of the way I talked. I was constantly bullied when, because I lived in a black neighborhood, I went to a black church. I ran summer track every summer growing up. I was constantly teased, but. And I think I should be allowed to talk about that now. I'm not talking. Mine's not a form of colorism, but it is like my adjacent to, I guess, whiteness or whatever, going to white school and stuff like that. But it's not colorism. And that word should be. The way they're talking about it made it feel like it was something that black people created. And that is not the case. And I think that they more so we should talk about it and that's why we should talk about their experience, because we shouldn't tease. They shouldn't have been teased when they were younger because of the way that they were looked. And you have to talk about where that teasing comes from and what that's rooted in. And that's the conversation that we should be having. So we shouldn't ignore their experience. We should talk about why it exists and that that's a problem and we should get down to that.

[A]

I'm fascinated. I'm gonna ask you a question on the backside of this in a second, but before I get to that question,

[B]

then being teased is a consequence of the system.

[A]

That's true. Black people didn't create colorism. I mean, colorism, to your point, exists in every society, exists in Asian communities, and exists in the most racist conversation I've ever had before in my life. I think I've talked about it before sitting down. I was in El Paso, taking a train back to la. I was having a conversation with a guy and the guy was Mexican. And I mean, this is just the reality of the conversation. I'm sitting down, this is like 2010 or 11. He goes, well, the Mexicans that are in LA, they're not. They're the dirty Mexicans. I was like, what the he's Mexican guy. He's like, I'm from Chihuahua or wherever the place that I am from, we are lighter skinned. This is where all the women that win Mexico come from. He's like, the Mexicans that are in LA are the ones that come from Baja. And I was like, my guy, it has been nice to meet you and talk to you, but what the fuck is happening right now? And he was telling me, and when I was having that conversation, understanding that there is a European thrust to the beauty standard that exists all over the western world and really parts of the eastern world as well, all of that stuff because of who's, you know, been able to make the rules about what is beautiful, even if you're talking about Asian, all that stuff. Colorism is the deal. It's a thing. The question is whether or not any specific culture. The genesis, to me, is huge, and it's a part of it, I think. But there's also a question I think is a more contemporary question. And that question is about whether or not we've codified it. And even though the genesis of it is what it is, I think sometimes the living and active conversation is about our hand in perpetuating some of these ideas. And I think that's the living and active conversation about myriad things, myriad cultural discussions that we would have. Right. The question is not the dysfunction that we inherited, but the dysfunction that we continue in. And can we have enough conversations that are robust to where we can reorient the way we look at each other? That's a conversation about patriarchy. That's a conversation about the way we. Yeah, yeah, you got that from this specific toxic forebearer. Can you say, hey, pause. Let's have a conversation about it and maybe set some new rules and chart a new course. I think that's fair here. I just think that one thing that we will never talk about is no one ever is going to listen to pretty girl problems. They're not. They're just not. No one's going to listen to pretty girl problems. They'll listen to pretty nigga problems. Like, they'll listen to pretty boy problems before they listen to pretty girl problems. The pretty girl problems. Nobody's listening to those. Now. I'm not. Not necessarily saying. I'm saying that in this situation, a lot of times, lighter skin is connected to desirability.

[B]

And there's a politician, and that's been reinforced, of course.

[A]

And there's a politic there where people are just gonna go, y' all shut the fuck up. Y' all done been on. Y'. All. Y' all done got the covers of the magazines and stuff like that for too long. We not trying to hear that. And then the question is being that we know that. Right? Being that we know that. The question is, well, how do we discuss this?

[B]

Correct.

[A]

In amongst our things? And that's. I'll say this. The list of biracial actresses that I keep, the reason why I keep that list, and I know that's a joke to people, but we talked about this, and I'm not in any way trying to call anybody out. In no way. We've had two big screen portrayals of Storm. These are two nice people, amazing actresses, all of that stuff. Both of those portrayals are biracial ladies. Like, you know what I'm saying?

[B]

Who played the other one, other than Holly?

[A]

Alexandra Shipp. And she's a funny, she's a great actress, she's a nice lady, her family is nice, all of that stuff. But you know what the fuck I'm talking about. It's like I read the X Men all the way up through and so then there starts to become, and to be honest with you, the second portrayal of her is because Halle Berry portrayed her. And they're trying to get somebody to approximate what Halle Berry was like on screen. And that's no shot to them or no shot to anyone, none of that stuff. Right. But when we have these conversations, sometimes the conversations are about stop, let's pause and reevaluate what our beauty standard is, who we think looks good and like what the center of our self is. So when people hear that, they think we not really trying to listen to you talk about like your pain, even if it exists. And as much as I've talked about and on here, had a lot of fun with the biracial thing, there still is a really legitimate, important and vital discussion about how we treat everyone, all shades and colors inside of the family of black people that we inhabit.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I agree with you completely. That's why it's like I, I'm never gonna be that person who dismisses two light skinned women having this conversation. But I think, and this is where I would have loved to have seen their conversation go and it didn't, is we gotta be able to sit with each other and talk about how we got here, why this exists and how do we move forward. Like, we can't be like, oh, y' all are, you know, y' all are favored in the media anyway and when it comes to, to hiring practices and things like that. So like y' all don't have any real problems. That's not fair. Like, we also, we need to, if we're gonna come together, if we want it to stop, we need to be able to come together and have the conversation. But you know, it's the way they were having it.

[A]

I mean, look, I thought that it was a real honest way to have a conversation. I just saw it and knew straight up that the sisters were gonna be like, er. It was gonna be like, get it?

[B]

Cause they were like, well, what we, we can't call it this, so what do we call it? And my, and I kind. That's the only pushback I'll say is like, well, why does it need a name? I think if you name it something, then that almost makes it more of a problem. The question should be. It's the. The issue should be, it has to stop. And how do we start having conversations to make it stop? Where we even stop playing into stereotypes? Because it still exists within our black community. You know, you have women that only want to date men who may look a certain way, or men who only want to date women that look a certain way. And it's like, well, why do you want to do that? And what is it that you're really trying to accomplish? And what does it say about what you dignify as beautiful or successful or whatever it may be? Like we have to talk about this kind of stuff. We have to get out of our own heads too. It continues to exist because we perpetuate it as well as a community.

[A]

I think that there's some.

[B]

And naming it is part of that.

[A]

I think that, that there's some type of. Oh, well, you said you didn't want them to name it.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. Naming is a part of that problem.

[A]

I think there are certain lighter skinned brothers. I had a conversation with a lighter skinned black actor, pretty successful that was saying that sometimes when he goes out for roles, he is seen as less masculine. Like he doesn't get tough shit, tough roles. Because we were talking about Aaron Pierre and how Aaron Pierre, we gotta have him on. I don't want to say his name until we have him on. We were talking about Aaron Pierre and how Aaron Pierre's role. And what was Aaron Pierre's breakout movie? I love that fucking movie. I can't remember thinking the name of it right now. Rebel Ridge. Rebel Ridge. He was like, Aaron Pierre's role. This nigga said that Aaron Pierre was like the Jackie Robinson of. I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? It's been like light skinned black guys that have been in action movies like Will Smith, like there's people that. But he was like, nah, you don't understand. He was like, for me as an actor, seeing him out there being a lighter skinned, light eyed guy and being tough, he's like, they don't give us those roles. He was like, there's something that makes them sometimes think that we're not masculine enough to like get those types of roles. I was like, really interesting. I never.

[B]

Because they got. Because they were treated softer. You know, like if historically, Historically. Right, right. Because they were in the house, they like their life was hard. Obviously they were slaves. But I'm just saying that it wasn't as in the sun in the field doing labor in the same way. So I think that's where that perception comes from. But are we not being problematic when we're like, so I was talking to this light skinned person. I was talking to this, like, shouldn't we just be like, I was talking to this black person? Nah, See, But I'm just saying the more that there's a separation when you do that. Now, it's different if you say, hey, Rachel, I want to hook you up with somebody. And I say, what does he look like? And then you describe, there's a little. That's a difference. Because I need to have a visual. But are we not part of the problem if we're like, all right, I'm just.

[A]

I'll tell you why I don't.

[B]

I'm just saying.

[A]

I'll tell you why I don't think so is because, number one, are you with.

[B]

That's the first time I've seen that.

[A]

You have never seen that before.

[B]

I'd never in an interview. Not in a regular conversation where she's telling us to rap.

[A]

When is time for us to stop?

[B]

We don't even have a guess. I don't even know if we have another topic, y'.

[A]

All.

[B]

I don't even know if we have another topic.

[A]

I have one more thing I want to ask you. No, I want one more thing I want to ask her. But, like, I. I think in this situation, the reason why I said that is because it was pertinent to the conversation because he was light skinned and he was talking about.

[B]

Sure, sure. But it made me. It made me think of that.

[A]

True. Very true. Now let me ask you this. Do you think it is appropriate for black people to litigate and discuss levels and degrees of blackness?

[B]

Yeah, because we do it anyway.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no. I know that we do it, but do you think it's appropriate for black people intraculturally to say, this is blacker than this. That is blacker than that.

[B]

Okay. This is blacker, too, in the sense of gatekeeping. Maybe say more. But I. And I'm thinking of this at the top of my head. I do not think that we should litigate somebody's blackness. I just told my story. My blackness was litigated. It still is. Because of my ex. Right? Constantly. Oh, my God. Constantly.

[A]

I'm sure. Yeah.

[B]

So of course I'm gonna say it's something that we should not do. We should not be litigating. There's no book that exists or checklist that says, this makes you black. This is not. I think that's what makes us beautiful, is that we are all different. So, no, I don't think that we should litigate it, but I do think that there should be some kind of boundary or line. So maybe that's not litigating it in the sense of keeping what's ours ours, if that makes sense.

[A]

What do you think?

[B]

I think you think we should.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

In what way, though?

[A]

In all ways.

[B]

But, like, what does that mean? So I give you. I tell you what happens to me. Do you think that that's fair?

[A]

It's not really about fair or unfair.

[B]

Do you think. Why do you think. Why do you think that? Because. Cause here's the thing. All right, let me back it up. If I didn't have this podcast. If I didn't have this podcast that. I know you call it a pop culture podcast, but it's more than that, right? We talk about how things intersect with black people, the community. So I didn't have this podcast that was like this. And so you didn't know me. The only space that you know me in is. Is that I went on a white show. I dated majority white men, and I chose somebody who was. I mean, yeah, Latino, but, like, white presenting. So white. I think that there's a. It is fair to ask the question of, does she fuck with us? Because you don't know me. And if that's litigating it, then I guess I do believe that. But if I have a podcast where you constantly hear my thoughts, my opinions, where I stand, what I call out, what I'm not afraid to challenge when it comes to the benefit of black people, people, not just women. Men, too, then I don't think that it's fair that you litigate, because I think it's obvious where I stand, and I think that any litigation of that is just simply just wanting to hate on me for the purpose of hating. Because you just don't. Like maybe something that I did, a decision that I made or whatever, or

[A]

an opinion or something. Yeah, I see what you mean. I think that there's two reasons why I think it's not just appropriate, but it's vital. Number one, I think it's something that all cultures do.

[B]

Well, they do. I said that. But you said, don't say that. I'm like, well, yeah, we should, because we do.

[A]

And you're like, no, no, no, no. I mean, all cultures do. All cultures litigate.

[B]

We litigate our blackness.

[A]

No, no, no, no. All cultures. All cultures. Any culture. You can't name a culture that doesn't litigate and discuss the authenticity of that culture amongst the people that participate. If you talk about skateboarding, skateboarders are going to talk about who the real skateboarders are and who the fake skateboarders are. If you talking about hip hop, it's going to be real hip hop, fake hip hop. If you talking about American culture, you're going to talk about who is a patriot, who is not a patriot. If you're talking about Jewish culture, Asian culture, whatever, there are going to be ways that those cultures really police themselves by talking about how authentically cultural things that are inside of their purview are.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The only reason why black culture to me is frowned upon when it does that is because black culture is for mass consumption. And because black culture is for mass consumption, there is a tinge of it and a twinge of it that says black people are not supposed to police it, that we are not supposed to make rules, we're not supposed to have guidelines, and we're not supposed to have those rules or guidelines even amongst each other. Because the worst thing to call a black person inside of black culture is anti black or fake black. Right. Sometimes when you do that, you're going

[B]

to be not black enough or not

[A]

black enough, all of that stuff together. Right. Sometimes when you do that, you're going to be wrong. Sometimes you're going to introduce new concepts that are going to force people to listen to you or force people to like re interrogate what it is they believe. Like heard somebody was in conversation that said a lot of the 90s gangster rap is decidedly anti black. That's actually not black culture because it's anti black women. Some people could say that it's anti black men with some of the things that it reinforces. Some people could say that, like it got to a point to where some of them were discussing things and then it became a white corporatist means of not only control, but a way to propagate actual genocide that was happening inside of black communities. That the music is inherently anti black even though it's made by black people. The genesis is black like that. There's actually not black music because it's to the detriment of black people. Had a fantastic conversation about that. A back and forth. Then you just talk about like your proximity to whiteness, your proximity to what is white, and how that colors your perception of black people. What's the symptoms of that? There has to be There has to be a symptom of you not either being a part of being siphoned, sectored away from. There has to be. There's symptoms that go along with that type of deal. What are those symptoms? And are those symptoms things that are catching within the black community? We do it. We just don't do it amongst a cohort of people that is supposed to be accepted right away. Nobody's gonna be like, hey, Larry Elder, Candace Owens, Barn Donald. You can't talk about. No one's gonna care if I say those people are less black. No one's gonna care. No one's gonna care. Doesn't matter where they black parents come from. Don't matter what they did, where they from, no matter where they came from. They went to black church every single fucking day. They are endeavoring into what people believe to be cultural and political, anti blackness. Therefore, they are anti black. The question is, if you are not into that, if that's not your thing, if it's not that overt, right? And there are things that you don't know, cultural customs that you are not up on. And these things vary from place to place, right? There's no. Cause my black in the south is different from the black in Harlem.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

You go up to places and you sitting around and Puerto Ricans are saying the N word, and you like, yo, what the fuck? Like, you put overalls on Fat Joe. He looks like the overseer on the plantation. That's a white guy.

[B]

He's not black.

[A]

I understand that. But like, he, because of his proximity to blackness, has like, like, lived inside of blackness and where he's from, he will go there and say the N word and nobody will care. If he comes to Baton Rouge and tries that, niggas are going to check his motherfucking temperature.

[B]

So, like, I'm getting lost in what you're saying.

[A]

What I'm saying is that conversation about an understanding of cultural rules and mores and values is a fair conversation to have. And it's fair to say that y' all doing something up there that is a less black or anti black. It's also fair to say that if you grew up in a private school, not necessarily you, but other people, if you grew up outside of the cultural experience of blackness, are there some things that are ingrained into you that disconnect you from what people would say is a cultural experience of blackness? It doesn't mean that the answer is yes, but that would exist. That does exist in every single culture. Every single culture goes, that's not quite Jewish. That's not quite Filipino. That's not quite this. That's not quite that. There are rules to being a part of it. The only place where we get on each other's asses for saying, hey, there are some things. And the list is not that long. The list is not that long. But there are some things that we should all be able to kind of coalesce around is this culture.

[B]

So the reason I said I was getting lost is cause you start bringing up Fat Joe and I'm like, he's not even black. He's not even in the conversation. We're not talking about people who are black adjacent to a community.

[A]

No, but we're talking about the way black people, where he's from, the way they respond to that.

[B]

Correct. That's different. But the conversation is like us in our community should be litigated. And when I say.

[A]

You understand the point, though, I don't want to get off this point. The point is.

[B]

But I want to get back to what it was.

[A]

I know, but the. But what I'm saying is the point that I would make there is that's not black behavior.

[B]

Because you're accepting. Yes, I get you.

[A]

Right?

[B]

I get you. I get you. I get you. So, yes, black cultural, where you're from makes a difference as far as, like what you accept within your black. I get it, I get it. The reason. The only thing I'll say is, is there's anti black. I don't really know how to define fake black, but there's anti black and then there's what's deemed not black enough. I don't believe debating or litigating what is deemed black enough. I do believe in anti black. And so, like, see, I will call Candace Owens black. Cause I want her to know what she is. And she would say she was black, but she's also anti black. And that's something, to me, that should always be litigated. And that's where I think the boundaries are. But within, if you want to ask a question, if you want understanding, I wouldn't consider that litigating. But to tell somebody, when I say litigating, I'm mainly thinking of terms of are you black enough? To me, that should not be litigated if I'm black. And that is how I identify. And I might have had a different upbringing. I might have been raised, adopted by white parents. I might have gone to private school my entire life. I might have grew up in an affluent neighborhood where I didn't see black people. But I identify as black. I believe in the black experience. Historically. I know stuff. I have a desire to be a part and understand the community. Why should that be litigated? Because I grew up rich. Why should that be litigated? Why should I be deemed I'm not black enough because I didn't have or what you said. I went to public private school my whole life. But that's not the cultural black experience. So now my blackness is litigated. That is what I say should not happen. Anti black for sure. And that's to me, where I say there's a line, there's a boundary, there's a gatekeeping of that. Because that rhetoric and that behavior seeps in. And I think that's where things become problematic.

[A]

So this has nothing to do with money. Like I'll, I'll give you an example. The Cosby Show. So of course, I'll give you an example, The Cosby Show. So you have Bill and you have Heathcliff and Claire. Heathcliff and Claire are affluent. They are affluent. They got money, a doctor and a lawyer. They are black. There is black art, there is black music. There are black cultural traditions. In terms of even the multi generation, like the schools, it is black. You gonna watch that show and you gonna learn about blackness. And it didn't seem like they were forcing it. What it seemed like is that this was a natural manifestation of who these people and who these characters are. Right. In actuality, Bill Cosby, you guys hold space right now for the grotesque figure that Bill Cosby is. In actuality, he went to temple. He went to temple in the show. He went to a black school, right. Wanted to show that financial achievement does not have to divorce you away from blackness. Blackness is something that you invest into a part of who you are. What I'm saying is, to the person that you're talking about, like the person that you're talking about, like identifying as any culture is not enough, is not identifying as a part of that culture isn't enough.

[B]

Well, I explained more than just saying I'm black. I said way more than that. Cool.

[A]

I'm not going to look at somebody that is culturally invested, curious and engaging and participatory in black culture and say that they're not black because they were adopted. Right? But if you are not those things and you are adopted, I'm gonna say that's probably the reason why. So, like, if you don't care about none of that shit and you were adopted, I'm gonna be like, oh, you didn't grow up because you're black, but culturally, you're whatever your parents are, and they didn't think that it was important for you to have this type of upbringing. So I'm gonna say, oh, that's probably why. And at some point where I hear about these people that go to college and they become black, at some point, like, you'll want to come to the parties, too, and then you'll go there and you'll join the Black Student Union and you'll do all this stuff, and then boom, boom, you're niggerized. Over. Over time, but over overnight. But what I will say is, I don't just think that it's appropriate to have these conversations. I. It's vital. It's vital because it makes those cultural traditions and those values, it makes them important. Now. You don't have to have them with

[B]

a pitchfork, which a lot of times people.

[A]

When people are kids. Right.

[B]

I deal with it in my adult life.

[A]

But to be honest with you, though, in that situation, we could have a conversation about that. Whatever. In that situation, if you're talking about because of Brian or because of the Bachelor or any of that stuff like that.

[B]

Oh, I think it's because of Brian more than anybody.

[A]

Okay. If it's because of Brian, then that. The usefulness of that social taboo. The usefulness of that social taboo, we could have a conversation on it.

[B]

Yeah. I don't get mad if you're a fir. But again, like. And maybe I just. What I love, too, about this podcast is we grew up different. I love that we grew up different. We're both from the South. We have two different perspectives. I love that even growing. Like, we grew up different, but then as we traveled in life, it was different. And I think that that adds depth to the conversations that we have because we bring different experiences to it. But I also am very understanding. And so if you don't know me, but what you know of me is maybe what you read on a Wikipedia, I can, if you ask me, or maybe assume something. I don't get mad at first. Now if you keep going with it or I can't get past that, whatever it is that you assume, then, like, that's a totally different story.

[A]

We'll get off this. But I'll say this, for some. You know what? You'd be surprised. Like, I'm a Star wars guy, so, like, Mr. Guebara would have blurred. Yeah. But that wasn't a thing. Then there was no so I'm a Star wars guy, so Mr. Gubara, rest in peace. Would have, like, movie time at lunch, and I would go in there and watch Monty Python with them and all of that stuff. When I was at McKinley Middle, Nirvana started popping, and I joined a rock band called Guillotine. You'd be surprised. I would have, like, all of the stuff that I was into. They just come to me. We'd be in the neighborhood, and they would be like, van was with the white boys. And I'd be like, if y' all wanted to watch Star Wars, I would be with y'. All. But these are the motherfuckers that I watch Star wars with. These are the people. So I put my niggas on Star Wars. So I put my. My niggas on sign.

[B]

But your public perception wasn't. My public perception became that.

[A]

But when I get it. But when I. I know. But what I'm saying is that to me, or even the talk white thing was a huge, huge deal. The talking white thing, I didn't even understand it. It was a huge, huge. It was actually funny. You talk white, nigga. Why you talk white?

[B]

Did you ever try to change the way you talked? No, I did. It did not work.

[A]

How'd you try to change it?

[B]

I don't even remember then. I mean, now I just talk like me. But I just pulled up and you was like, hey. I just wasn't there yet. But I. I just remember, like, I was quite. I was quieter in how I would talk because I didn't want people to say. I was. You're so proper. You're so. This. Yeah, it took. It took a. Like a guy telling me in high school, it's like, I like the way you talk.

[A]

And I was like, okay, wow. Interesting.

[B]

A black man.

[A]

To me, I never. That shit never affected me.

[B]

Yeah, I. I don't mind. Was brutal. It was brutal. It was tough.

[A]

Also, I think that was cause of dad, too. Rest in peace, Dad. I was coming home, I was like. I'd be like, dad, you know, I don't know. The gifted program shit. They say that, like, I talk white. Cause I'm in the gifted program. My dad would be like, yeah, well, the good thing about them niggas is that all of them are going to jail.

[B]

Okay? That's. My dad did not say that to me.

[A]

It's like, you really not gonna have to worry about what they think, because all of them are going to jail. And mama would be like, terry, not all of them boys are going to jail. He'd be like, keep watching the majority, like you can. And if you want to go out and go to jail with them, which is anti black sentiment. It is. That's an anti black sentiment.

[B]

Anyway, Myza didn't say that, but yes. He just put him in jail.

[A]

He knew that they were.

[B]

He just put them in jail.

[A]

He knew that they were.

[B]

He said, I go, don't worry, Rachel. I got something for them.

[A]

Hey, Rachel, don't worry about that. They keep talking to you, baby.

[B]

I got something for you.

[A]

I got something for you. They're going to Danbury Minimum Security Prison. Talk to my girl like that. Okay. What a weird conversation. And Donnie, you have anything to say about this? You haven't? Are you black? I feel like it's obvious. I am black and I agree. I feel like there's no culture that doesn't litigate people's placement in said culture. So we're not exempt from that at all. Thank you, Donnie. Yep. That's appreciated.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Doesn't care. All right, Z Corner, before we get out here, anything from you guys, you guys have anything to add to Niggas with Dreads?

[B]

Nah. Well, technically we're not supposed to. Not supposed to say dreads anymore.

[A]

What is it?

[B]

Say locks.

[A]

Two niggas with locks.

[B]

Locks.

[A]

Yeah, I got locks.

[B]

That's anti black.

[A]

Okay, so what else is anti? There you go. Like, catch me up. Is that black if I have locks?

[B]

No, the word dreads, Bernard.

[A]

Okay, nigga Bernard, we gonna take you off the fucking mic, dog. Like, but like, Bernard, stay up, stay involved in different type of. Now, come on. Got you got going on over there. Is that. Is that anti black to have locks? It's a lot of anti black that we do. That I do. It's anti black to make fun of light skinned black people. That's anti black because they black in a way. All right, let's go. Love you, God. All shades and colors, different places that you from.

[B]

But he is keeping a list on

[A]

some of y' all keeping a list because I need to see Coco Jones in the movie. I keep. I'm gonna say I'm not getting off that. Marsai Martin. Name other young Jamie Lawson. Marseille. I don't know how to say no words. Marseille, Marseille, Marcel Marceau. Like, I need to see. I need to see them anti black, anti black. I need to see them in some of the goddamn movies. Just some of them.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Now that I want to see him in all of them.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I got movies and shows coming out and I'm casting dark skinned people. Nobody respects it. All right, take them caps off, but do not stop learning and don't stop fighting for your culture, man. I'm Van Lathan Jr.

[B]

I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.