Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Senator Brian Schatz On Trying to Comprehend MAGA. Plus, Men’s Views on the WNBA With Angel McCoughtry!

Date: November 21, 2025
Podcast Host: The Ringer

Overview

In this packed episode, Van and Rachel dive deep into the intersections of Black culture, politics, and sports. The show addresses recent controversy around Pharrell Williams's remarks on politics and DEI, unpacks both the political strategy required for post-Trump America with Senator Brian Schatz, and features a dynamic conversation with WNBA legend Angel McCoughtry around men's persistent, often problematic, commentary on women's basketball.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pharrell Williams, DEI and Political Discourse

(Starts ~02:00)

• Context: Pharrell’s recent comments at a Black Ambition event caused controversy, with pushback regarding his views on political engagement and the value of “being the best” in the absence of DEI.

• Van's Conversation with Pharrell: Van recounts a direct discussion where Pharrell explained his intention was not to dismiss all politics, but to emphasize that "right vs. left" debates are divisive and can hinder genuine progress. Pharrell’s focus is on economic empowerment, entrepreneurship, and philanthropy—he’s invested $85 million into DEI and supporting Black and brown businesses.

  "Politics, which he was specifically talking about—right versus left politics—typically leaves people behind. It is divisive...He doesn't want to be a part of a fight for political power."
  —Van (03:15)

• Tension Explored: Rachel pushes for more public, clarifying conversations from figures like Pharrell, arguing the private clarity is not enough when the initial public comment went viral.

  "What would benefit Pharrell in this situation...You gotta talk again...You have to come back out and speak to it again, not just have private conversations with people."
  —Rachel (10:16)

• Philanthropy vs. Systemic Change: Van argues that while philanthropy is commendable, it's not a substitute for policy and systemic reform.

  "For everything that every philanthropic institution that has ever tried to help Black people or any people has done, it is just not as significant as systemic disassembly and change...No amount of philanthropy can change that."
  —Van (20:04)

• Notable Quote:

  "If you position yourself as a leader of the culture, as a part of the cultural intelligentsia, then you need to [speak up]. But if not, let's do the work."
  —Van (21:13)

2. Trump, "Quiet Piggy," and MAGA Unravelling

(Starts ~29:10)

• The hosts analyze Donald Trump’s recent insult ("quiet piggy") towards a reporter asking about the Epstein files—Rachel describes the moment as emblematic of Trump’s unraveling and misogynistic tendencies.

  "He hates women. Trump hates women. And it's very obvious. But the quiet piggy and the timing of it and the question...shows that he is falling apart over this Epstein thing. That was anger. That was rage."
  —Rachel (32:04)

• Van uses this as a springboard for a comedic but serious reflection on "fat traitors" like Trump being hypocritical in using body-related insults.

  "You are fat. You are one of us, man. And I know a plus 30 BMI when I see it...Don't you ever turn your back on us again."
  —Van (36:55)

• Flooding the Zone: Van reminds listeners that Trump’s antics ("flooding the zone" with controversy) are also a distraction from substantive political developments, like MAGA-aligned politicians bucking Trump's lead on the Epstein files.

  "Every time we get up in arms about Donald Trump saying something mean or insulting, we're actually allowing them to flood the zone...The flooding of the zone, Steve Bannon thing, is to just put as much shit in there so we don't pay attention to the story that you actually hit on."
  —Van (33:19)

3. Senator Brian Schatz — Politics of Addition vs. Subtraction with MAGA

(Interview starts ~39:45)

The "Addition, Not Subtraction" Tweet

• Schatz's View: Politics is the business of building coalitions. When MAGA voters express doubts about Trump, the correct political response is addition (welcome them), not dunking on them or questioning their motives.

  "People vote for you for their reasons, not yours...If someone, with whom I've disagreed all my life, says, 'Hey, this guy's bad for my pocketbook,' I just take the W, and we don't have to praise them excessively."
  —Senator Brian Schatz (40:31)

• Rachel's Pushback: Rachel asks if it’s wise not to interrogate further, since many MAGA voters express dissatisfaction but still vote for Trump.

  "Isn't it necessary to follow up with questions and to interrogate a little bit more? Cuz it doesn't necessarily mean that you got the W..."
  —Rachel (42:02)

• Schatz's Reply: It’s about smoothing the way for people to defect from Trumpism without humiliating them—“It’s hard to admit you’re wrong.”

Coalition Building and Purity Tests

• Schatz distinguishes between accepting votes from people with imperfect alignment vs. letting them shape your platform. Highlights the risks of over-purity in progressive circles:

  "The flaw in the sort of progressive movement...was this constant purification ritual where we were trying to make sure everybody was all lined up and intersectional. And I think people just reacted adversely to that and said, 'I'm with you on 7 out of 10 things. Isn't that good enough?'"
  —Senator Brian Schatz (43:00)

Pro-Life Democrats, Compromise, and Policy Impact

• Van and Rachel challenge Schatz on where to draw the line on controversial issues, such as abortion and voting rights—how much can you compromise to win?

  "When you say 7 out of 10 things you can agree with somebody on and that should be good enough, how much should it matter what those three things are?"
  —Van (49:40)

• Schatz explains that sometimes, for example in red states, a Democrat with less-than-perfect alignment is better than any Republican for critical votes.

  "It’s always better to have a conservative Democrat in the United States Senate than a so-called moderate Republican because those moderate Republicans are way to the right of your conservative Democrats."
  —Schatz (50:45)

Notable Quotes/Exchanges

• "Sometimes we have to remember that the whole point of this movement is to achieve power so we can help people...winning is a moral imperative."
  —Schatz (47:23)
• "He frustrated you. He imprisoned me."
  —Van, on Joe Manchin (52:41)
• "We have to figure out how we’re going to win."
  —Van, closing the interview (54:51)

4. U.S. Coast Guard Policy Change on Hate Symbols

(Starts ~54:59)

• Breaking news segment: US Coast Guard to downgrade swastikas and nooses from “hate symbols” to “controversial symbols,” allowing for “investigation of circumstances” before discipline.

• Both hosts react with concern and confusion, seeing it as political sanitization of hate under the Trump administration and recalling broader right-wing shifts towards emboldening white nationalist iconography.

  "You are normalizing symbols that are hateful. It doesn't make sense to me."
  —Rachel (59:13)

• Van maps out a generational divide on the right: the old guard (pro-Israel, neocon, more "respectable" conservatism) vs. the rising, openly racist/antisemitic, isolationist "griper" set (Nick Fuentes, Tucker Carlson supporters).

  "Tucker [Carlson] has made the calculation: 'I will be Big Brother to those people and count on the fact that that movement will grow.'"
  —Van (64:14)

5. Michael Porter Jr., WNBA, and Men Policing Women's Sports

(Interview with Angel McCoughtry starts ~74:13)

5.1. Michael Porter Jr.'s Claims and the Male Obsession

• Michael Porter Jr. claimed he could have "dominated" the WNBA as an eighth-grader, fueling yet another viral episode of men belittling women's sports.

• Angel McCoughtry, WNBA legend, responds with humor and seriousness:

  "Congratulations. You was dominating against women in the eighth grade. What does he want? Does he want a cookie?...The only thing that should be coming out of a man's mouth about women is uplifting her. That's the only thing."
  —Angel McCoughtry (77:01)

• Angel calls out the perpetual male fixation on comparing male and female athletes, suggesting it’s rooted in insecurity and outdated gender expectations:

  "The elites—Kobe, Bron—don't talk that kind of stuff. Why? The elites don't talk like that."
  —Angel McCoughtry (78:39)

  "[Some men want to] keep these women over here, make sure they're beneath us so we can continue to feel like we're this and that."
  —Angel (82:39)

5.2. Comparing Women's and Men's Games

• Van and Angel discuss why comparing women’s skill to men’s is irrelevant and often diminishes the women’s game.

  "There is a method of thinking that thinks in order for the women of the WNBA to be properly appreciated, that you have got to compare them to the men. And I think in the long run, that only diminishes their game."
  —Van (84:09)

  "We didn't say, yo, God, can you make us that our bodies aren't as athletic as men?...Appreciate it. It is what it is."
  —Angel (84:38)

• Angel shares stories about beating high school boys in basketball, not to put men down but to inspire them to improve—an approach that further highlights the irrelevance of these comparisons in judging women's or men's sports value.

5.3. Calls for Mutual Respect, Opportunities, and a Co-ed League

• The idea of a co-ed pro league was brought up; Angel is open but says only truly skilled women could compete physically with most men and vice versa.
• The group agrees appreciation for women's sports should be based on performance, skill, and hard work, not gender comparisons.

5.4. Notable Quotes

• "If you feel like we're that good, obviously we're that good. If you got to continue to compare, that means we can obviously play."
  —Angel (81:16)
• "You lower the rim, the boys dunk...I pumped, the back was done, they all went crazy..."
  —Angel, on posting competitive footage and pushing young boys to grow (89:07)
• "We don’t need to do this shit no more, nigga. Come on, bro."
  —Van, urging us to drop these tired comparisons (95:21)

Notable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Pharrell and systemic change:
  • "No amount of philanthropy can change that." —Van (20:04)
• On coalition building and winning:
  • "Winning is a moral imperative." —Senator Brian Schatz (47:23)
• On Trump’s “quiet piggy” insult:
  • "Trump hates women. And it's very obvious." —Rachel (32:04)
• On men belittling women's basketball:
  • "Congratulations. You was dominating against women in the eighth grade. What does he want? Does he want a cookie?" —Angel McCoughtry (77:01)
• On the importance of female athletic performance:
  • "With all of this attention, why is the conversation always about what men could do in the WNBA?" —Rachel (paraphrased, 75:23)
• On conservative coalitional divides:
  • "Tucker [Carlson] has made the calculation...I will be Big Brother to those people..." —Van (64:14)

Conclusion

This episode offered a panorama of current Black public life—from the practical limits of philanthropy and systemic structural change, to the new politics of coalition under an ascendant MAGA, to the entrenched sexism and cultural friction still running through American sports discourse. Rachel and Van, joined by Senator Schatz and Angel McCoughtry, provide listeners honest reflection, personal accounts, humor, and unflinching critique throughout.

Episode Timeline

| Segment | Topic | Guest | Timestamp | |---|---|---|---| | Intro | Show open | -- | 00:00 | | Pharrell Williams & DEI | Van/Rachel debate | -- | 02:00 | | "Quiet Piggy" / Trump | Trump media analysis | -- | 29:10 | | Interview: Brian Schatz | Politics of coalition | Brian Schatz | 39:45 | | Coast Guard Policy | Hate-symbol downgrade | -- | 54:59 | | Interview: Angel McCoughtry | Men's obsession with WNBA | Angel McCoughtry | 74:13 |

For New Listeners

This is a quintessential “Higher Learning” episode—funny, self-revealing, and at times unflinchingly direct. If you care about the knotty intersection of Black culture, US politics, and social criticism (with a side of sharp-tongued sports talk), this episode is unmissable.