Shedeur Sanders’s Draft Fall: The Civil Rights Issue of Our Time? Plus, Cinematography and ‘Sinners’

Summary

Podcast Summary: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Shedeur Sanders’s Draft Fall: The Civil Rights Issue of Our Time? Plus, Cinematography and ‘Sinners’
Date: April 29, 2025
Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into multiple major conversations:

• The controversy and discourse surrounding Shedeur Sanders’s NFL Draft fall and whether it represents broader racial or systemic issues.
• An in-depth discussion of Black representation, power, and politics in the NFL with guest Dominique Foxworth.
• A celebration of visual storytelling, with an interview featuring Autumn Gerald Arkhipa, the acclaimed cinematographer for the film Sinners.
• Vibrant cultural debates, including the viral “100 Black men vs. a gorilla” question, and the infamous “Glaze of the Week” segment.

The episode is rich with humor, sharp insights, and a commitment to tackling the intersections of sports, politics, and Black culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Shedeur Sanders’s NFL Draft Fall – Civil Rights Issue or Not?

(Starts ~16:07)

• Context: Shedeur Sanders, son of Deion Sanders, fell to the 5th round in the NFL Draft after some early projections placed him in the 1st round. This prompted outcry and debate, with some framing it as a major cultural or even civil rights issue.
• Debate Setup: Van wonders if the NFL’s treatment of Sanders is “the civil rights issue of our time,” a phrase Rachel quickly challenges as a stretch.
  • Rachel Lindsay [01:41]: "I think that's a stretch. I think it's safe to say that's a stretch."
  • Van Lathan: Emphasizes the symbolic weight of Black athlete treatment and the layered history of Black quarterbacks in the NFL.
• Guest Analysis — Dominique Foxworth (ESPN analyst, former NFL player, and union president):
  • Dominique Foxworth [18:13]: "This is not... I'm not calling Jesse. I'm not marching for nothing. This is not the fight I'm looking to have."
  • Honest Take: Sanders fell in the draft for reasons not solely connected to race, but, Foxworth says, “If he was better, people would have excused all this other stuff.”
  • Race as a Factor: Foxworth acknowledges race always plays some role: "Race probably played some role in this. It’s not the major role, I would be my guess.” [21:55]
  • Deion's Role: “All in all, I think Shedeur has benefited more than he’s been hurt by being the son of Deion Sanders… Did it help him during the draft this weekend?… absolutely not.” [27:24]
  • Media & Measurables: NFL decision-makers are seeking “big, super physical outliers” at QB, so Sanders’ polish and accuracy are overlooked in favor of raw athletic traits.
  • Complex Causes: Sanders’ draft fall is about “a big stew—traits, off-field stuff, character,” but not a civil rights emergency.

Memorable Quotes:

• Dominique Foxworth [21:55]: "What I'm not gonna do is defend the NFL… I do believe that race is an issue in almost everything in society. Race probably played some role in this. It's not the major role."
• Van Lathan [31:12]: "It’s okay to say this is about a lot of things and race is a component, but it’s not the component."
• Van Lathan [36:07]: "Deion Sanders has protected and guided and nurtured his sons to being overwhelmingly successful... But Shedeur is a grown-up now. It's time for him... to be the tip of the spear, and Deion is now a part of the support system."

Segment Timestamps:

• Civil Rights Issue framing: 01:41–03:23
• Dominique Foxworth interview: 16:55–34:36

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2. Broader Black Cultural and Political Context

Quick Hitters Section (~04:19–16:07)

• DEI at Harvard & Smithsonian Concerns:
  • Hosts discuss Chuck Schumer's “strongly worded letter” to Trump over DEI cuts—mocked as symbolic but ineffectual.
  • Smithsonian rumors of removing key African American artifacts prompt skepticism; Rachel discusses how such administrative moves quietly erode Black history.
  • Van’s personal connection: mentions visits to the historic Greensboro lunch counter, promising to fact-check the Smithsonian controversy.
• TD Jakes Stepping Down:
  • Noted megachurch pastor retires due to health.
  • Rachel voices curiosity about whether the church’s congregation will accept a woman—the pastor’s daughter, Sarah—taking on a lead role.
  • Van reflects on Black male longevity, tying it into wider issues of community health and leadership transitions.

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3. “Glaze of the Week” — Saquon Barkley & Trump

(Starts ~38:15)

• Recipient: Saquon Barkley, for spending time golfing with Donald Trump and flying to DC with him.
• Analysis: Van and Rachel see Barkley as allowing himself to be “used as a pawn,” drawing a connection between personal actions and political endorsement.
  • Quote [41:24, Van]: “That’s a glaze. You’re glazing. That’s a glaze…”
• Deeper Dive: They bring up how Barkley’s fiancé had a problematic history with racial language, and critique the defense of his actions as “respect for the office.”
  • Rachel says his tweet is “straight out of a MAGA handbook,” calling out false equivalency between Obama and Trump.
  • Van sharply contextualizes the Trump administration’s hostile policies toward Black Americans, tying Barkley’s attention-seeking to larger systemic harm.
• Memorable Moment:
  • Van [45:11]: “What’s not up for discussion is whether or not Black people should have clean water to drink… But those are the discussions that come from the Trump administration. And if you’re Saquon Barkley… you’re saying it’s okay.”

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4. Cinematography and ‘Sinners’: Interview with DP Autumn Gerald Arkhipa

(Starts ~50:49)

• Cultural Phenomenon: Sinners is dominating the box office and generating buzz for both its storytelling and visual style.
• Autumn Arkhipa’s Perspective:
  • Describes the technical and emotional process of making Sinners, focusing on authenticity, representation, and lighting.
  • Speaks on being the first woman to shoot a feature on 65mm IMAX film—an historic moment in cinematography.
  • Explains that lighting Black skin well is about avoiding overlighting and embracing natural patina; “These are my people. I don’t feel like we need to shine extra light on someone just to see someone. The skin is dense and it has a quality and patina to it that’s beautiful.” [61:47]
  • Advocates for more opportunities for women and people of color behind the camera and on set.
  • Shares her personal ties to New Orleans and how they informed the emotional authenticity of the film.
• Technical Deep Dive:
  • Explains the use of multiple film formats (IMAX, Panavision, Ektachrome).
  • Discusses shooting in challenging physical settings and the practical trade-offs (e.g., loud IMAX camera requiring ADR for dialogue).
• Memorable Quote [63:40]:
  • Arkhipa on lighting: “…it’s not about, like, they’re standing next to someone who’s Caucasian and I need to put more light on them. Everyone’s treated the same… there’s so much beauty in that texture [of Black skin].”
• Fun Moment:
  • The hosts quiz Arkhipa on telling film’s twin characters apart: “You are essentially the visual mother of this film.” [86:07]

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5. The Viral Debate: 100 Black Men vs. A Gorilla

(Starts ~92:20)

• Phenomenon: This social media topic leads to a playful but surprisingly strategic breakdown by Van.
  • Van presents a detailed plan, written out on a whiteboard, describing five attack “waves” with various athletic archetypes.
  • Colorful breakdown: "First wave: the meat sacks... their job as the meat sacks is to make this a bloody mess" [98:37].
  • Rachel, Donnie, and guest are skeptical, arguing it's less about strategy and more about plausibility and unity.
  • Rachel [104:42]: “If 100 Black men could come together to fight the beast, we’d be in power right now.”
  • Van laments the lack of belief and unity, suggesting this is a humorous microcosm for struggles in Black community organizing.
  • Jokes about "motivation," sacrifice, and even a satirical reparations angle.

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Other Notable Moments & Quotes

• On generational leadership & health:
  • Van [14:36]: “I want to do an initiative to have Black men live past 70… So that that number doesn’t become like some unattainable thing.”
• On Black women in the church:
  • Rachel [13:18]: “There’s a lot of old school folks... particularly in Black churches, who I don’t know are as modern and fully on board… with a woman leading the church. I’m just curious to see… what happens to the membership.”
• On Black technical crew in Hollywood:
  • Autumn Arkhipa [64:47]: “We think a lot about who’s writing, who’s performing, but we don’t think about who’s lighting the movie… That makes Black people look beautiful, authentic, and sometimes even ethereal.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• NFL, DEI, Smithsonian Museum Discussion: 04:19–16:07
• Shedeur Sanders Draft, Civil Rights Debate: 16:07–34:36
• Glaze of the Week (Saquon Barkley/Trump): 38:15–49:55
• Cinematographer Autumn Arkhipa (Sinners): 50:49–91:18
• "100 Black Men vs. A Gorilla" Debate: 92:20–108:57

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Tone & Style

The episode is characterized by sharp cultural critique, playful banter, and deep affection for Black community, achievement, and resilience. There are frequent moments of humor and irreverence, bracketed by clear-eyed critique and celebration of Black excellence.

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Useful for Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This summary provides a full sweep of the show’s central topics, lively debates, and cultural touchstones:

• If you want to understand the fuss over Shedeur Sanders’s draft fall, this episode gives you both the football analysis and the cultural context.
• Film and cinema fans get a rare behind-the-scenes masterclass on visual storytelling, especially from a groundbreaking woman of color.
• The “Glaze of the Week” segment and gorilla debate offer viral, unforgettable doses of Higher Learning’s unique brand of cultural humor—while still tying back to bigger conversations about representation, power, and community.

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Notable Quotes—Quick Reference:

• "Race probably played some role in this. It’s not the major role, I would be my guess." — Dominique Foxworth [21:55]
• “If you allow yourself to be part of the Klan, that’s with a K… That’s a glaze. You’re glazing." — Van Lathan [41:24]
• “These are my people. I don’t feel like we need to shine extra light on someone just to see someone…there’s so much beauty in that texture.” — Autumn Arkhipa [61:47]
• “If 100 Black men could come together to fight the beast, we’d be in power right now.” — Rachel Lindsay [104:42]

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For a full, smart, and hilarious journey through sports, politics, representation, and pop culture—all through a Black lens—this episode is a prime example of Higher Learning’s ongoing impact.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I can't wait to see it. I know it has Academy award winner Forest Whitaker. He returns as Bumpy Johnson, facing his deadliest battles yet for Harlem's future. When ruthless newcomer Frank Lucas arrives, everything.

[A]

Changes as power shifts and new threats emerge. Will Bumpy forge an uneasy alliance with his enemies? Or will he stand tall as the undisputed Godfather of Harlem?

[B]

Well, you can find out in the new season of Godfather of Harlem. New episodes streaming Sundays on mgm.

[A]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up? Heart Learning is on.

[B]

It's Ivan Lathan and it's me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[A]

Got a big show. Another jumbo show. Two guests, Autumn Gerald Arkhipa, cinematographer of Sinners, the DP of Sinners. Very important. The movie looks beautiful and we're gonna talk about the look of the movie.

[C]

With her and we're gonna learn.

[B]

I'm gonna learn something's for sure.

[A]

Sinners, number one at the box office again.

[B]

As it should be.

[A]

As it should be. You like it? We also have Dominique Foxworth coming on to talk about Shadour Sanders. He is obviously a former NFL player that now does NFL coverage on espn. He has his own podcast as well. We need to know, is Shadour Sanders getting drafted in the fifth round? The civil rights issue of our time.

[B]

Oh, God, I think that's a stretch. I think it's safe to say that's a stretch.

[A]

Is it the civil rights issue of our time, Rachel? Because we. No one knows. It was a football decision. It was a cultural decision. It was anti black. Obviously. Everyone watched him slide from being a first round projected pick from the media to a fifth round pick. And I've seen people that are ready to take to the streets because he got drafted in the fifth round. And we just need Dominique Foxworthy or somebody to tell us, is this in fact, do we need legislation? Like, what do we need to do?

[B]

It's definitely layered and Dominique is gonna help us break it down. I don't know if it's the civil rights issue of our time. Is that how you phrased it? But it's definitely once again shedding a light on the NFL and, and the. And the way it handles its black players, specifically black quarterbacks. And it's not the NFL, it's the owners. Well, I guess that's the NFL, but it's the owners, it's the league, it's the media, it's the fans. It's a lot. And we love a sports topic when it transcends sports and it's about politics. Cause, you know, Trump is, you know, Trump's taking credit, by the way. I don't know if anybody saw that.

[A]

Oh, yeah, right.

[B]

But he's taking credit for. Because of his tweet, he believes. Well, that's because they listened to him. And now Shador's drafted. But also, I mean, like, politics and sports more. So it's culture, it's race, as you said.

[A]

We're also gonna talk about whether or not a hundred black men can beat a gorilla in a fight.

[B]

I am shocked at the way that this has taken life. Like, it is everywhere.

[A]

ReamchasingMike says, I think 100 niggas could beat one gorilla. Everybody just gotta be dedicated to the shit. So we're gonna talk about that later. But what I'm saying right now is there's no hope without a plan.

[B]

Okay, guys?

[A]

There's no hope without a plan. And of course, it's Monday, so we're gonna get into Glaze of the week a little bit later. Glaze of the week changed.

[B]

It changed at the last minute, as it should have. It changed at the last minute as it was necessary.

[A]

I listened to black women. Black women. I had a couple of black women tell me that. Look, there's something that's clearly glazing, and we have to discuss it.

[B]

What was the original Glaze of the week?

[A]

I'll tell you. I'll tell you when we get to it. Okay, okay, okay. When we get to it. Quick hitters. Real quick.

[D]

Chuck Schumer had this to say on CNN State of the Union about Harvard's federal funding being revoked after the school said it would not comply with Trump's demands to end DEI programs.

[A]

Going to hurt every American. It's going to hurt the kids at the universities who've had nothing to do with protesting, but it's also going to hurt the kind of medical research and other kinds of great research that is done at Harvard and other universities. So we sent him a very strong letter just the other day, asking eight very strong questions about why this isn't just a pretext.

[B]

Well, you'll let us know if you.

[C]

Get a response to that letter.

[B]

I do want to see if she's.

[A]

Like, okay, hey, good for her.

[B]

Was that data?

[A]

Yeah, good for her.

[C]

We'll who.

[B]

Strong letter.

[A]

A strongly worded letter.

[B]

I literally hope it's Chuck Schumer with them. I literally hope Trump puts on Truth Social. A picture of him burning a video of him Burning the letter eight times.

[A]

You ever been playing y' all ever. You ever been. You hooping? And this is the worst thing that they could say, when you hooping, you hooping. And it's this thing that we do in the South. They do it out here in la, too. They really do it. Whenever there's a pickup game, somebody will shoot the ball on the other team and they'll be like, nah, he with us. Cause he's so whack that if you.

[B]

Shooting the ball, no pressure on him.

[A]

No pressure. Don't go, oh, don't worry about that. Let him shoot.

[B]

Let him have it.

[A]

Let him take it. He's on the other team, but he is so inept that. That he with us, Chuck Schumer. When the publicans see Chuck Schumer about to shoot, they go, nah, he with us. They got. That's a he with us. Chuck Schumer is a he with us, man. From the vote for cloture to strongly worded letter.

[B]

Nah, he would us even just watching him deliver that, it was like, sir, your time has passed. If it hasn't been evident to everyone before that video, that gesture or the action of writing the letter, like, who took the time to write that letter with those points? Why the number eight? There's so many questions that video shows. It's enough. We've got to move on. There are other leaders in the party that will do a much better job primary him.

[A]

Look, my man Maxwell Frost is leading a pack, and their job is to.

[B]

Have Maxwell come back on.

[A]

You should have him back on. They are primary members of the Democratic caucus, particularly in the House.

[B]

Is this what David Hogg's about with too?

[A]

I think he is with that. They're piss off at David as well. They're primary members. Getting the older people out of there. Look, strongly worded letter. He with us. That's what the Republicans. Ah, he with us. Let's choke. All right, Donnie.

[D]

All right, next one. There's an update to it, but let's get to the actual story before the update. The Smithsonian apparently begins removing exhibits and artifacts from the African American History Museum, which comes a month after Trump's executive order to remove what he calls improper ideology from the Smithsonian museums. Some of the artifacts reportedly are the original 1960 Woolworth lunch counter where the sit in protest began in Greensboro. And civil rights leader Dr. Amos Brown revealed that a letter confirming the return of a Bible from when he was going to demonstrations with Dr. King and Jesse Jackson is being returned to him, as well as a book by George W. Williams, titled the History of Negro race in America 1618-1880, which is one of the first books that's written on racism. The update the Smithsonian released a statement this morning that is refuting some of these claims. They say that recent reports are inaccurate. Suggestions that the Smithsonian had planned or intended to remove the Greensboro items, specifically, they say are false. They also say that they routinely return loaned artifacts per applicable loan agreements and rotate objects on display in accordance with their high standards of care and preservation. So something's up, Rachel.

[B]

I mean, this is just one of those things. I feel like, you know how people keep saying with the Trump administration and all the things that they're doing, they're like they're basically saying, yeah, you all pay attention to this while we're secretly doing these other things over here. So hopefully they fly under the radar. This is one of those examples. To me, it's not shocking at all that he's getting rid of anything that it relates to black people, because we know to that administration, DEI means black. So this isn't shocking. I mean, the Smithsonian, they've come out and stated this, made this statement. But it seems like in your second point of what they said about how they routinely return lone artifacts, they're making room and an excuse for more of these things to be returned after a certain amount of time and not be a part of the African American History Museum, which means we lose our history.

[A]

So shout out to P68. So me and Matt Barnes, Me and Matt Barnes went with the people from P68. Molly, Daryl, Melissa, everyone was there.

[B]

What is P68?

[A]

P68 is an organization that gets out funding and messaging and a media company put together that gets out information to people, to voters, and try to change things. Okay, so the whole thing, P68 is great. So me and Matt Barnes went down there and we talked to Ms. Dena Hayes, who is in Greensboro. We sat at the lunch counter in Greensboro. I can call her. I can have Molly and Darryl and Melissa and. And the people at P68 put me in contact with her, and I can find out whether or not the Smithsonian is being truthful about this or whether or not Smithsonian has a hand up their back from the Trump administration and is trying to cover for the Trump administration's stripping of specific things from the Smithsonian as it relates to. To black, African American, Negro peoples.

[B]

You should call her.

[A]

Okay, I can call. All right. Because this is one. She's a lady. She runs the museum there. I was able to sit there. It's an incredibly eerie place to be when you think about it. Kind of begins there, the entire thing. So I can get to this. I can get to the bottom of this by Thursday. Who's telling the truth here? Whether or not they're actually doing this or whether or not there's some sort of misunderstanding. Yeah, I'm gonna have to make the call.

[B]

Well, I'm curious.

[C]

I wanna know, Donnie.

[D]

All right, last quick hit. It looks like TD Jakes is stepping aside as lead pastor at the Potter's House. The announcement comes months after he had a massive heart attack while delivering a sermon on stage at the church. This is what TD Jakes had to say.

[A]

Now, there's some other things that I'm assigned to do, both here and outside, but I cannot afford, especially after November, to risk something happening to me and you be sheep without a shepherd. I cannot afford to let all the work of all the saints, living and dead, to hold this so tight so long that I wither away. So he is stepping aside as the lead pastor of the Potter's House megachurch in your hometown of Dallas, Texas. And Sarah and Toure are taking over.

[B]

Yeah, it'll be interesting to watch. I thought it was important to bring up. Cause we talked about TD Jakes quite a bit on the podcast.

[A]

You don't like him?

[B]

Not a fan. But I do commend him, though, for I think what he said is important. We ask this of our leaders. We see it a lot where people just sit and hold the power until the very end, and then by the time they leave, things are in disarray, it's too late, you know, whatever industry it's in. So I do applaud him for stepping down and putting his health first and his church first and the members that go there. It'll be interesting to see how the church accepts Sarah and Torey.

[A]

Oh. Cause you think he's got such a big presence there.

[B]

Well, he does. He has such a big, like. Obviously when you go to a church, you're supposed to be about the church and not the leader. But let's be honest, people follow the person who leads the church.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

He's been there since 1996. He's built something great. Which he says. But I also say that because she's a woman.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And I just am curious now. He did say it's not just her, it's going to be her and her husband. So a man will be a part of it as well. But I just. There's a lot of old school folks in the south, particularly in black churches, who I don't know if are as modern and fully on board, but they should be with a woman leading the church. And I'm just curious to see if it's what happens to the membership.

[A]

Who are the prominent women in black evangelical circles like that, like Juanita Bynum was one for a long time. It's a lot of women.

[B]

Well, no, it's not a lot of women.

[A]

I'm not saying it's a lot of women.

[B]

That's why we can't name them. Like, I was about to say, Pastor Shirley Caesar.

[A]

Pastor Shirley Caesar.

[B]

But she's. But, you know, we really know her music.

[A]

Her music? Yeah, more so. Okay. So, I mean, I'm not pushing back. I'm saying. That's interesting. I actually hadn't thought about that.

[B]

I just thought about it when I saw the announcement. And of course, I wondered, what's gonna happen to her church here?

[A]

Right. Well, he said that they moved the church. Didn't he said that they moved the church?

[B]

Well, she started. She moved back in Covid. But the church has been there past Covid. Right. I don't know. I don't go to it.

[A]

I don't know. Some heathen talk right here. You know what?

[B]

Now I watch my church from at home.

[A]

I watch my church from home. Okay? So what jumped out to me is the fact that Reverend Jakes is still young. Pastor Jakes. Should I say Pastor Jason? Still young. He's 67 years old. So when I thought about all of this, I thought about the fact that I'm glad that he's stepping aside and giving the work over to his youngers. But more than that, I want him to be around for a little bit longer. For a lot longer. So I hope that, you know, with the lessened workload that he has, that he also, you know, takes care of himself. Yeah. 67. I think of Dad, I think of my uncles, I think of everybody else. And I wanna do an initiative to have black men live past 70. I wanna do some type of longevity initiative so that black men. So that that number of 70 doesn't become like some unattainable thing. You know, I've watched so many of, particularly the Southern black men that I know not get to 70 years old. So, you know, I wanna see Pastor Jakes be around for a lot longer for his family, for people that need him outside of that, but for his family as well. So I hope that he really, really has a lot of years of good health and that he can, you know, focus on that now as I need to focus that at 45, like moving forward, you know?

[B]

Yeah. He did say he'd still be involved with the church, and they are. The church. The one. One church out here in LA is still open and it says it's led by Torre and Sarah. So I'm interested to see what happens.

[A]

Okay. Okay. On the other side of this break, we're gonna talk about Shador Sanders falling to the fifth round. The question is, how mad should black people be about this? Is this. I'm gonna ask once again the civil rights issue of our times. We're gonna have that conversation with somebody who knows. That's Dominique Foxworthy, who is an ESPN analyst but also an NFL vet, the former president of the players union. He can help guide us in the right way. Don't get mad if it's not time to get mad. Black people don't get mad if it ain't time to get mad. We gotta talk to Dominique on the other side of this. Donnie, actually, you get us into it. Tell us what happened.

[D]

How about we have Mr. Foxworth help set us up?

[A]

Oh, alive. Look in right now. Dominique Foxworth is joining us from the set of his podcast. Dominique, how you doing, man?

[E]

I'm great, man. Thanks for having me.

[B]

Hi, Dominique. Good to see you.

[A]

Listen, I don't know if you've been paying attention to it or not, Dominique. I'm not sure if you. If you know, but Shador Sanders was drafted in the fifth round of the NFL Draft. I don't know if you've caught that 144th pick. He goes to the Cleveland Browns. This is after a lot of media were saying that he was going to be a first round pick. There were mocks early on that had him as the first pick of the draft. He was certainly looked at as the second quarterback off the board. He ended up not being the second quarterback off the board. I think he ended up being so the fifth quarterback off the board. Jalen Milro, Dylan Gabriel, Tyler Schuck, Jackson, Darth, Cam Ward, all go before him. I have a question for you because there's a lot of fighting now. We know the football side of this. We're going to get into that. But there's a cultural side of this as well. In your opinion, NFL vet, analyst, guy who knows about this? Is this the civil rights issue of our time?

[E]

I love higher learning. I love it. I love it. You guys managed to have the real conversation because I think a lot of podcasts, a lot of shows that I'm on because of all the things we have to worry about, you cannot have the real conversation. You have to hit towards the real conversation and not directly address it. But yeah, this is not. This ain't it. I'm not calling Jesse. I'm not marching for nothing. This is not the fight that I'm looking to have. And the funny thing is just, I'd say it's just been three or four years where I feel like we've gotten to a point where I no longer have to lie to myself to about black quarterbacks and I no longer have to pretend that some black quarterbacks are good that stink. We've gotten to a point in progress at NFL that I can honestly assess black quarterbacks. And now y' all asking me to go on a boycott over this situation, which I do not think is one that we need to call into Calvary for.

[A]

So then what's your honest assessment? Yeah, what's your honest assessment of Shador Sanders?

[E]

Honest assessment is Shador fell in the draft for reasons that are not connected to his ability. However, if he was better, people would have excused all this other stuff. Like, I think that's what it comes down to. And I think the reason why it's really hard, I think for people to come to that honest assessment is the way that we've evaluated the position has shifted. And the ironic thing about this is I feel like for so many years, particularly when we were younger watching football, we're yelling at the screen like, get the quarterback. That can also do other stuff, which is kind of code in some degree for like go ahead and give the black quarterback a chance. We have now evolved to a point where people who play with those things that only black quarterbacks play with at one point are the type of quarterback quarterbacks that we're looking for. Is it quarterbacks that. That raise the floor of their offense in their team because of their athleticism. And unfortunately, Shador doesn't do that. And we are looking for, I've made this analogy before, is that in the NBA we went from looking for a true distributing creating point guard, it was like six two, six three and could set everybody else up. Now if you have that, you're behind. We're looking for a point forward. You're looking for someone who can do everything and is also 6, 8 would be the perfect ideal person for that position. We're at a point in the NFL and it's been evidenced by most recent drafts where they are looking for those guys and then like Josh Allen kind of marks that transition where guys like Trey Lance are going to get drafted really high, despite the fact that his college career wasn't great. Anthony Richardson, a guy that I know you know well, got drafted because of his traits, not because of his production. Because every team wants to be able to not coach. You know what you could do every now and then when you got Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson call a play, who cares? He'll fix it. And Shador doesn't have that ability. So I think that hurt him in the first, the early first round. The fact that he didn't go in the second round and had to wait all the way to the fifth round. I think that is where the conversation gets interesting. But I don't think it's cause he's black.

[B]

Okay, well, let's get into that. What do you think it is? Cause there was a clip going on around where there was a analyst talking about they're making an example out of him. And part of the reason they're making an example out of him is one, because of the power that collegiate players have now with nil, and that there's. There's really no control when it comes to that. But then also because of Deion and you know, I'll get into the Dion of it later, but just because being Deion's son and, and. And being attached to that and the power that comes with that, do you think that they were making an example out of him to maybe humble him a bit, taking race out of him?

[E]

What I'm not gonna do. Yeah. What I'm not gonna do is, is defend the NFL or NFL teams or GMs when it comes to races. I, I'm getting a little concerned with where I'm positioning my. I want to be clear that I'm not looking to defend them and pretend as if they have progressed to the point where race is never an issue. I do believe that race is an issue in almost everything in society. Race probably played some role in this. It's not the major role, I would be my guess. I think the way that confidence and cockiness and assuredness is viewed when you're talking about a black player or a black person in general and is different. So, yes, that's the case. But you know what the NFL is willing to do if you can throw a ball through a brick wall and run a four. Three, ignore a lot of things that are a lot more egregious than a dad who is. Who talks a lot and a player who's pretty confident. And I went back and looked at a Lot of the things that Shedeur has said because he'd been being framed as like this kind of asshole, frankly. And the things that he has said and done, I don't think represent him that way. I think we characterize him that way. He said that thing about his offensive line, which was rude and it wasn't like direct, but it was like a judgment on their ability. He came back apologizing for it later. The other big thing was not shaking the Colorado State quarterback's hand after that game, which like, frankly, he talked, the Colorado State quarterback talked trash.

[A]

No problem with it. Yeah.

[E]

So those are the things that we point to. That and doing his wrist celebration, like none of the stuff that he does I think is all that egregious. He talks trash. None of that stuff is particularly problematic. I think the reflection is to some degree, people don't like the idea of having to deal with whatever comes with Deion Sanders having the platform that he has. I think that's probably true. And the fact of the matter is, it's a big stew. When you're looking at these players, all their abilities, all their off field stuff, all their character, their football card, all that stuff goes into the stew. And the stew gets real delicious if there's a big ass gold bar in it which happens to be someone's arm strength or athleticism. The problem with Shador is I believe that his stew didn't have that big thing in it that had everyone just be willing to accept whatever comes with it. And then when you're like, all right, he projects for us to be a backup quarterback. Do I want a backup quarterback who has all these other things that I think are non issues. But I'm not the head coach or general manager of a team. So to be clear, I'm not defending anybody's racial record. That's one thing that I tell all my white friends who are in media. If you do something dumb, don't call me and think I'm gonna speak up for your voucher. You, I'll talk to you on the phone and give you some advice, but I'm not gonna get my face on TV and say, no, my man ain't racist. I'm definitely not doing it for a bunch of NFL executives whose names or whose faces and names I don't know well enough.

[A]

For Shador, how difficult do you think his journey from 5th round draft pick to starting NFL quarterback is going to be now with everything surrounding him?

[E]

Yeah, I mean, there's one huge hurdle in front of him right now is that they drafted a rookie quarterback that they like better in front of him. And I have. While I wasn't a quarterback, I have a unique experience in that I was the third cornerback drafted the year I was drafted by the Broncos. So they believed in two other guys at my position more than they did me. So I understand that Shador, Dylan Gabriel is going to get more chances than Shador. That's just the way it goes. Because whoever all the people made the decisions determined that he was better. So I think he has a ways to go. But honestly, like, it feels like fairytale almost. But this for Shador, I think it. It lowers the pressure. It allows him to focus on the things that he needs to get better at. And I think that the thing that ruins most rookie quarterbacks is them being thrown out there on bad teams and developing a lot of bad habits that they can never rectify. So this is not a perfect situation. I'm not going to pretend if you're the second quarterback drafted in the fourth on the depth chart, it's a bad spot to be in. It's not a great spot. But there are some. There are some silver lining to it that it does give him some time to address whatever issues it is that he has. The problem with Shador, though, is he didn't have a lot of, like, a lot of issues. His biggest issues are things that he can't address, I guess. Like he's not gonna get faster, he's not gonna get a stronger arm. He already was very accurate. He was already comfortable in the pocket. Maybe a little too comfortable, people would argue. Cause he holds onto the ball too long. So those are not things that he can address necessarily.

[B]

I think it's hard to talk about Shador and not mention Deion specifically when Deion has just said that his son is not going to take a backseat to any quarterback. How do you set? Is Deion a problem? Does Deon need to be quiet? Is he interfering too much and just not letting Shador be shadow, like, be a quarterback, go out and focus on the things he needs to to try to win that starting position. This is like interference to.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

I think anybody who says that Deion is just a problem probably has.

[A]

Some.

[E]

Preconceived notions and wanted to come to that, that determination. And they're using this to get there. Because I think Deion is a lot like any other person or a lot like any other situation is that they're trade offs. There's good that comes with bad. All in all, I think Shador has benefited More than he's been hurt by being the son of Deion Sanders?

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

Did it, did it help him during the draft this weekend? I'd say absolutely. Absolutely not.

[A]

Right.

[E]

Did it help him with his career and getting to the point where he was a quarterback that people wanted to evaluate? I'd say yes. So at this point, I'm not sure how valuable it is, but Deion does have influence in relationships in the league that I don't think hurts. It's always, I mean, there's always some networking to all of these major industries.

[A]

Do NFL scouts and GMs watch college tape? Does it matter that Shador was so tough? Does it matter that he was so accurate? Do the numbers matter or do they prioritize NFL measurables and how you project an upside way more than your game tape and all of that stuff?

[E]

I think that NFL executives are people and they are subject to their own personal biases. And it doesn't even, I don't even mean in a grand picture of them not liking Shador necessarily. I think when they find a player that they see traits and that they like, they then find these other things like his toughness. His toughness would become a characteristic that they loved if they love that player, whereas now they don't like him. It's. He holds onto the ball too long. I think you frame it the way that you want to frame it. I can find plays of Shador where I could look at it and say, look, this is an example of him not playing within the confines of the offense, holding onto the ball too long. Or I could reframe it and say, look, this is Shador not looking to get the check down and get the easy yards, but looking to create something and make a big play out of it. I think the problem really comes down to the original thing that I pointed out is the way that this ecosystem works now is we are hunting for these big, super physical outliers with super strong arms. I know Bryce Young doesn't fit that necessarily category, but with the rest of the quarterbacks that have been taken in the first round, most of them fall into that category. And I feel like if Shador looks like that, all these negatives that we would have about him would be spun more in a positive direction.

[B]

I think the discourse has been really interesting this weekend with Shadore and how everybody has become involved with it, whether they're into sports or not, because it's become bigger than sports. We talked about it at the top of the podcast. It's about race. It's about culture. It's about politics within sports. For you, is it really that complicated or is there. Or is this shedding light on something bigger that we really need to be discussing? Is there a bigger question here or issue here?

[E]

No, I don't think so. Like, I think that it. Is it really that complicated? I'd say yes, is. Yeah, all these, all these elements are involved, but it doesn't feel like it is shining light on anything new in the NFL to me. It doesn't feel like some major example that's teaching me something new about talent evaluators or about the network that is in the relationships and the decision making that is in the NFL. I think this stuff is old. This is the way that it's been. We've moved in a better direction, I'd say, but obviously we aren't there. Like, it's America. I'm not a fool. I've been black my whole life. These things don't change. But it feels a little bit silly to feel like this is all about race or anyone who's making this all about race a couple years after Anthony Richardson is drafted. It's like, right, right. If you was looking, if you was looking for a reason, I mean, you kind of are looking for. Yeah, it just feels like there's so many opportunities and. Yeah, I certainly don't want to be framed as I'm protecting NFL or defending NFL. I was president of the union, for goodness sake. Like, that was my whole job was to fight them for some period. But this is not the battle that I'm willing to fight.

[A]

Yeah, it's okay to say that, like, this is about a lot of things and race is a component, but it's not the componen.

[B]

It's not the civil rights movement.

[A]

It's not the civil rights movement of our times. Before we let you go, I gotta ask you about one thing here on Higher Learning. We love a good crash out. And there was an epic crash out during the draft and it came from a colleague of yours, one Mr. Mel Kuyper. Okay. I don't know if Mel. Mel probably good right now, everywhere. Mel probably good in Magic City. Mel good in Playhouse in Miami. Mel went to bat for. He didn't go to bat. He went to baseball. He went to bat, to pitch, to shortstop, to outfield managing third base coach. He went the extra mile for Shador Sanders during ESPN's draft coverage, yelling at the NFL about it. It's not a quarterback boomer's size that was not happy when he was the Second round pick. Not happy they dropped. How'd they turn out? Nobody's arguing that that can Happen.

[B]

Race.

[A]

The NFL has been clueless for 50 years when it comes to evaluating quarterback. Clueless, all that. No idea what they're doing in terms of evaluating quarterback. That's proof. There's proof of that. How many say, we know exactly what we're talking about with quarterback? They don't. Dominique, why. Why did Mel Kuyper crash out the way that he crashed out over Shador Sanders day after day, but specifically the one time that Lewis Reddick had to be like, yo, Mel and Reese, why did Mel crash out like this? Why?

[E]

Because it means that much to Mel, man. Like, before the draft was a thing. Mel made the draft a thing. Like, this thing means something to him. Mel. Every year he is not on tv often. We have him on every now and then. And then it's Mel's time. And so when you disrespect something that Mel holds near and dear, can you imagine, like, who it was Caleb Williams last year. Like, Mel was looking at Shador like he was Caleb Williams and he really believes so. Like, imagine how you would react last year if all of a sudden Caleb Williams went in the fifth round. Like, I know Mel's reaction seemed over the top to us. That's because we didn't see Shador the way that he sees Shador.

[A]

Right? He.

[E]

We out here letting John Elway fall to the fifth round.

[A]

You.

[E]

I would lose my damn mind, too. That seems crazy, man. Like, look, I almost lost my mind when Lamar Jackson almost fell out the first round. Like, what is y' all looking at? And that was just the end of the first.

[A]

I'm telling you right now. We gonna see. I'm surprised Mel wasn't at the Shadua Sanders draft party with the rappers and Shinsaya and everyone. Mel gonna be there, man. Mel gonna be perfect timing, the whole nine. Dominique, thank you for joining us, bro. Tell people where they can find you, man, all the stuff that you're doing, brother. Tell them where they can find you.

[E]

Oh, yeah. I mean, you can. I'm on there. You can watch that or you can go and download Dominique Fox river show podcast. You know where podcasts are gotten and that stuff. My name's on that, so I care about that a little more than the rest of the stuff that I do.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? Just like that. You okay?

[B]

Yes, he should.

[A]

That's what I'm talking about. Dominique, thank you for joining us, brother. Shedding some inside Light on this whole Shador Sanders thing. We appreciate you joining us on higher learning. My man.

[B]

Good to see you.

[A]

Thanks.

[E]

I can't wait to come back.

[C]

Y' all better come back.

[A]

Okay. Nope, Gotta bring you back.

[B]

Gotta bring you back.

[E]

Appreciate you, brother.

[A]

Gotta bring you back. No problem.

[B]

It seems like so you. So you're not asking that question anymore. It seems like you shouldn't ask the question anymore.

[A]

Well, there's culture involved.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

There's culture involved, but it doesn't seem like right now that we have to take to the streets.

[B]

This isn't the one.

[A]

It doesn't seem like the one.

[B]

But I really am interested. Like, I'm rooting for Shador.

[A]

Yeah, of course. Now I want him to stick it in their face.

[B]

Not that I wasn't before, but yeah, I'm rooting for him. His stuff, it's going to be really interesting. I'll be paying attention to Cleveland more than I have.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, now I definitely want them to. I was never not rooting for him. But like your point, now I want them to go out there and succeed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Particularly now that. And it's interesting. It'll be interesting to see how they respond to this. When I mean, they. I mean, the Sanders camp. Okay.

[B]

Oh, I was like, not the Browns. They drafted desean.

[A]

Right. They didn't draft Deshaun.

[B]

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yes, they signed him. Gave him.

[A]

But it'll be interesting to see how they respond to this. Do you respond with interviews and vitriol for the NFL community and the owners and the GMs in scouts, or do you put your head down, get to work and take the necessary steps? I'm not saying there's a right or wrong way and take the necessary steps to outplay that fifth round draft position. I do want to hear about Shadore Sanders career. From Shadore Sanders.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, Deion Sanders has protected and guided and nurtured his sons to being overwhelmingly successful. And not just Shadore and shiloh. Deion Sanders Jr. As well, who had a great football career, I think, at smu that he played. He played for SMU some years ago. And he also now runs all of the social and video stuff. Right. So he's doing a fantastic job as well. These are successful young black people, Deion's daughter, all of his family, successful young black people. But, you know, Shador is a grown up now. And so I think now it's time for him not to separate his father, but maybe to envelop his father into his organization, where he is the tip of the spear, and Deion Sanders is now a part of the support system.

[C]

Right.

[B]

To be clear, when I say separate, I'm not saying to, like, totally throw his father to the side, but I think that he's gotta kind of step in and speak for himself and not necessarily allow his father to do the talking for him.

[A]

Before we get into glaze of the week, we're gonna start having, like, small muffins and stuff like this for you to eat before.

[B]

Why me to eat? Because I have to cut down on my carbs.

[A]

Your stomach is going crazy.

[B]

You heard it?

[A]

I'm hearing it. It's like every.

[B]

It hasn't been going.

[A]

You're hungry, Rachel.

[B]

No, no, no, no. My stomach hasn't been going today, Rachel.

[A]

I've heard it several times. You're hungry. I don't want you to be hungry.

[B]

I don't eat muffins.

[A]

Well, like, what would you like? What would you like? I'll make you something for breakfast. I'll make you a nice protein power meal or something like that.

[B]

That's really sweet.

[A]

I want you to be hungry. You're not eating in the morning.

[B]

A little fasting. Do a little fasting.

[A]

Oh, daddy, I like that. So, like, when.

[B]

Intermittent fasting.

[A]

When do you eat?

[B]

When the podcast is over. So on days like this, it's probably like 12:30, so noon.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, that's how Rachel says trim. You know what's funny is I look back at myself When I was 40, I was a handsome, attractive person. And then in the next couple of years, I wasn't Shabba. I was Jabba. Like, Jabba the Hutt.

[B]

Got it. I know this.

[A]

That became me. Like, Mr. Fatty Man. Chaba. Okay. You like that? Like, I look back when we first started the podcast, it was different. And then Chabba. Okay. Graze. A week. Glaze of the week. Glaze of the week. You're on somebody's meat. It's the glaze of the week. Glaze of the week. Glaze of the week. You're sucking dick. Wow. It's taken over by popular demand. The glaze of the week this week goes to Saquon Barkley. Saquon Barkley spent his Sunday with President Trump at a golf course in New Jersey before flying back to Washington, D.C. with the President on Marine One. Now, is golfing with the president glazy enough to be considered the glaze of the week? No, it's not. I would say no.

[B]

Okay. I'd say yes, but keep on.

[A]

I would say no. Okay. However, that's not all we got here. We got my day with Trump. We got my lunch with Trump, My ride with Trump. Saquon Barkley looked like Webster in that picture.

[B]

It's a great comparison.

[A]

Like, he had been adopted into the Papadopoulos family, and he looked like. You remember back in the era of the celebrities caring about adopting black children.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you would see Madonna and she would be with an African kid or whatever. Whatever.

[B]

It's a lot.

[A]

He looked like he was part of the family. He looked like he was a member of the Trump Papadopoulos clan. I never thought that I would see one of the most physically imposing running backs in the league look like Arnold from Different Strokes, look like Webster.

[B]

It's a good little boy.

[A]

Looked like a little guy. Hey, Donald. Aja ba boo jah ba ba. And look, he responded on social media, and he said, some people are really upset because I played golf and flew to the White House with the president. Maybe I just respect the office. Not a hard concept to understand. Just golfed with Obama not too long ago and look forward to finishing my round with Trump. Now, y' all get out of my mentions with all of this politics and have an amazing day. That's an insult to our intelligence. You know, you can do whatever you want. If you are with the president, it's going to be political. It's a political office. All right? If you want to go to the White House and do all of that stuff, that's one thing. But if you allow yourself to be part of the Klan, that's with a K and hang out and ha ha ha and smack on the back and the whole nine. That's a glaze. You're glazing. You're glazing. That's a glaze. I gotta give Saquon Barkley, a difference maker for the Philadelphia Eagles. A difference maker for the Penn State Nittany Lions. Not a difference maker for New York, but not his fault. I gotta give him glaze of the week. That's a glaze. He's glazing.

[B]

He's been glazing.

[A]

He's been glazing. Trump.

[B]

Well, he's just been glazing. He's just been glazing. I mean. I mean, it's not the first time we've talked about Saquon on this podcast.

[A]

Okay, well, how else was he glazing? Tell me.

[B]

Well, I mean, his ex or. No, his fiance. His current fiance. You know, she has a history of, you know, highlighting how much she loves to say the N word.

[A]

Oh, I forgot.

[B]

And she loves. She also talked about how she planned to bag an athlete like she did and then had his nigger babies. She didn't say that, but I. But my point is, is that all came out right before the super bowl, and there was no comment. Not only action, you know, she was right there beside him when he won, when he, you know, accepted that achievement, and I wasn't. And I'm not saying he should. I'm not saying fiance, but I'm not saying that he should break up with her. I'm just saying he was aware, seems to have no problem with it. And to me, this is. When you see somebody who is with someone who has a past, you might say, okay, that might have been in the past. She was young. That might be a mist. You know, she's learned from it. But then when he aligns himself with the current president, which in this tweet he wrote in all caps, he emphasized it first. He started out this tweet with the laugh out loud. These things need to be mentioned. Then when he referred to the president, he put it in all caps. He's aligning himself with someone who also has a history of saying certain things and doing certain things that impact black people. So this is just who Saquon is at this point.

[A]

Look, here's the deal. I guess you're saying that he put himself up for adoption. He wanted to be adopted.

[B]

It really seems that way. This is the second adoption.

[A]

This is what I'll say. He's been adopted twice. You know, I don't care about his relationship with his lady. That's up to him and all of that stuff. Whatever, whatever. I'll say this, you guys. I get respecting the office of president. I get that. I'm not going to the Trump White House. I didn't go to the last White House either, to be honest with you. I didn't go to the Trump White House, to the Biden White House. I wouldn't go to the Trump White House. I don't believe in playing footsie with political power. That is that direct, because then you become used as a pawn in their game. Saquon Barkley goes there. He plays Trump, plays golf with President Trump, not just does the White House tour, but he plays golf with him. That's seen in his endorsement. It is. It is being there with him in a very intimate setting where you're surrounded by people who President Trump trusts. Those pictures get out because they want to use you. Saquon Barkley. As a means to cut off clean water for black people. Now, let me tell you why I keep coming back to that. And a lot of people wonder why I keep saying clean water for black people. You guys, you have to understand, the way I look at this. The way I look at this is there are political games that people get that people play for all kinds of reasons. Right. You want to get more for a constituency that supported you. You want to pay back donors. Or you have a vision and a version of America that you want to execute that you think works the best. That is all up for discussion. Right? It's all up for discussion between people who differ politically on how the government should be run, on what the tax code should be or what foreign policy should be. All of that stuff. What's not up for discussion is whether or not black people should have clean water to drink.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

It's not up for discussion whether or not black people should have safe schools, whether or not black history should be taught, whether or not the place of black people inside of institutions makes those institutions inherently less functional or dangerous. It's not up for discussion whether or not black pilots crash planes. It's not up for discussion whether or not black CEOs have the competency to run companies. All of that stuff is not up for discussion. But those are the discussions that come from the Trump administration. And if you are Saquon Barkley and you do more than go to the White House, which any of the other eagles that went to the White House is what it is. It's a team thing. Go or not go. I'm not gonna give you too much bullshit about it, but if you decide that you are going to pal around with him, you're saying that that stuff is okay?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're saying that it's okay that people in South Louisiana now don't have the same type of leverage with the Justice Department to get their environmental justice. You're saying it's okay that the people in Alabama have shit in their water. You're saying it's okay to strip DI programs and black history from all of these places. You're okay. You're saying it's okay. This entire narrative that's coming out of there, you're part of it. You're part of it, and you're a part of it, in my opinion, because you wanna be on a president's dick. That's the way I look at it.

[B]

I look at it that way, too. But I also look at it as, you know, as we're gonna Saquon's not gonna definitely not the first and is not gonna be the last prominent black person that we're going to see align themselves with Donald Trump during this, his administration right now, and after. I think what bothers me, in addition to what you were saying, is this tweet reads like it's straight out of a MAGA handbook. And the whole thing about respecting the office, it's one thing if you want to go to the White House because of what it represents to you in history and how many presidents have lived there and an actual office is there. It's one thing if you refer to Donald Trump as President Donald Trump to respect the title, but it is another thing when you align yourself with the individual and his policies, which is to your point. And for him in this tweet to say, well, I just. Just golfed with Obama not too long ago, and now I'm doing it with Trump. It's like almost as he's trying to wash away what he's doing with Trump because, hey, there's this black person that I golfed with. I'm like, are you stupid? Or do you think that we're stupid enough to not notice the difference between what the individual Barack Obama represents versus what Donald Trump represents? And I think one of the most troubling things to me with all of this was, other than what you said and what I just said, is that it goes back to why you started Glaze of the Week, which was with Bill Maher. You talked about him, not him being used, by going to the White House.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The fact that Saquon. It's not even about him being adopted, which he clearly is. It's not him even, you know, thinking Webster. It's not even about him thinking. It's an honor. Well, that is part of the problem. It's that you don't recognize that you are being used. He didn't choose you because you're a special black person or a special football player. He is using you as a means, which is what you were pointing out, and the fact that you can't separate the two. I guess I'm answering my own question. No, we're not stupid. It is you.

[A]

Not everybody from the Eagles went to the White House. Jalen Hurts. Didn't go. God damn. It's easy to root for. Jalen Hurts, man. God damn it. It's easy to root for. Jalen Hurts. He didn't go. He said it was due to a scheduling conflict.

[B]

Well, take him at his word.

[A]

That's what I'm Talking about, man.

[B]

But he's not going.

[A]

He's not going. All right, guys, Saquon, you know, Saquon Barkley. Trump. I'm glad, brother. I'm glad you got what you wanted. You got a dinner at lunch, a plane ride with Trump, and you also got Glaze of the Week. Oh, daddy. Glaze of the Week has taken over. All right, we're gonna get to our interview with the DP of Sinners, Autumn Derald Arkhipa. On the other side of this. You guys, you're not gonna want to miss this. This is a lot of fun stuff about the movie and about why it's so important to have people of color, women, behind the cameras in these situations. Yeah.

[B]

And can I just say, before you say, oh, my gosh, there's talking about Sinners again, this is a completely new perspective about the movie, in addition to the context that you just said, too, as well.

[A]

Yeah, I don't give a fuck that you guys are saying that. So, I mean, there's a rank racial.

[B]

I mean, it's a very interesting interview. And the thing that's so beautiful about this movie is you can talk about it in so many ways, and I feel like I even learned a lot. And we're giving you guys a whole other perspective to this movie, which just adds to its brilliance. I know you don't. I know you don't.

[A]

Suck it or not, guys, I don't care. Like, I don't care. We're talking to the DP of one of the most culturally relevant movies of the decade. And there you go. Suck it or not. All right, on the other side of this break. But everybody wants every single part of this film to discuss it and talk about it and to really celebrate it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Is it. Is it overwhelming?

[C]

I think it's overwhelming because I'm like, a tech nerd in my own field. And so I want to make sure that the information's right. And then I do all these interviews, you know, now, like, with different outlets. And so I, you know, I get in my head, like, to make sure it's all good, you know, so that can be stressful.

[A]

Okay. The voice you're hearing right now, you guys, is Autumn Derald Arkapa. She is the cinematographer, the director of photography, one and the same of the most talked about movie in a long time of 2025, for sure. But really in a while, the most talked about film maybe of the decade, with Sinners, which is in theaters now and had a ridiculous hold. If you guys don't know what A hold is. I've been trying to educate you guys. A movie comes out, it does big box office. The box office falls off week one to week two. Normally that box office drop is indicative of waning interest in the movie or new movies coming out. Sinners had a crazy hold. I think it dropped maybe like 6%, which is unheard of. It was actually another opening weekend. This is like back in the day when Snoop did 800,000 in his first week of doggy style and then came back and did another 800,000 in the second week. It's basically back to back wins. And it beat out the re release of Revenge of the Sith, which I have to go see, and the Accountant two, which I did see and I really enjoyed. So this is a big deal. How consistent the movie is and how important it is.

[B]

Can I say what I think it is with my. You know, because I'm so well versed. As I was telling you before, but as just a fan of the movie and what it is, I think it's not just the word of mouth, it's not just the popularity. It's one of those movies, which is very rare, at least for me, that you watch it and immediately you want to know every single aspect of it. You're trying to dissect it. And the first thing I said when I finished the movie was, well, I have to see it again. That's what I think the magic is. What is that like for you to hear not just me, but other people, clearly by the numbers at the box office. Yeah, Basically saying that about a movie that you were a part of.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I was there. So, like, it was. It's interesting because you know, everything. You're there every day. You're. You're there in prep and you know every single thing that it took to make that. And it was not an easy shoot. You know, like, when you're making stuff like that can be very hard in that, you know, kind of environment in New Orleans with the weather and all that stuff. So now that everyone's embracing it and it's so lovely, it just feels so worth it. Like all of that hard work and all that passion and, you know, kind of all the importance we put on it and everyone's smiling and contacting me, it's like bananas. Like, it doesn't feel real, to be honest. But because I was there, I saw it in front of me. Like, I knew it was great. Like, you just know when you're on set, you're like, this is some great shit. Like, Michael's there, everyone's there, all the actors are there, Omar is there. I saw you had him on here. Like, there's just so much personality and character, enthusiasm that you feel it's special when you're recording it. So then he puts it together in a piece like that. It makes sense that you. And then you have to see it again. Cause there's so much there to absorb.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So there's been a lot of talk in terms of the visual of this film. Right. There's been a lot of talk about that. Ryan came out and he did the brilliant 10 minute breakdown of how people should see Sinners with Kodak. And I feel like there's a marriage of the cultural part of this movie and the film nerd. And the rest of us who love to see movies in 70, love to see movies in the big screen. That is where you come in. All right. You're part of the team that made the movie look so amazing. So do two things for us. One, tell us what a DP does for people who might not be aware of that or listen to our podcast. And then two, tell us how you came to work with Ryan on the film.

[C]

Yeah, I went to school for cinematography. I went to afi, so that's kind of where I started my career. I learned that program. And essentially I'm in charge of the camera department. So everything camera. Right. You know, and then I oversee lighting and grip, which is, you know, electric, shaping the light, making sure that for every scene, that whole department supports the director's vision. And we're on set and in prep every day with them, we liaise with costume and production design in order to build the world. So you're kind of the director's right hand. He gives you an agenda for, you know, what his vision is. And it's your job to execute it with the assistant director in all these departments. So I have, you know, a movie like Panther, which is a huge movie. And that's where we met each other. We have a lot of Genie. You know, those are big sets, there's big action sets. A lot of management is involved in being a director of photography. So you have the creative side of it, but there's also a big management side of it. And you also have like, you know, these are big budget films. You have to manage how, you know, the time and the money is spent as well. So there's all these different layers. But we met because on the first one, Rachel Morrison was his DP since Fruitvale, and she was unavailable because she's now starting or she's directing now. And so I met Ryan because she was unavailable and they suggested me. And I had just finished Loki, and so we had a Zoom call where we kind of, you know, just, you know, I was talking to him for the first time and we hit it off. I'm also from the Bay Area, and it just felt like talking to family and, you know, honestly, from there it was a go. But also Bradford Young, who's a good friend of mine, suggested me for Creed when that was a job that also Rachel couldn't do. But I couldn't do that one. I don't think I had enough credits to be considered at the time for that. But so he's known about me. We just hadn't met yet. And then I came onto Panther and I did Wakanda with him and had a great time that lasted for a year. So, you know, after that, it's like. That's like one of your best friends. You know, you get to know people a lot, spend every day with them for a whole year in the trenches. So. So yeah, I'm. It's a. There's all these facets of the job, but essentially it's like you. You're. You're creating the vision, like through light and shadow and camera, and you're managing all of that.

[B]

Yeah. I think that for me, what was so incredible about watching this movie is one I've never been so interested more in the behind the scenes and the making of it. I'm one of those people who just gets. Falls into the story and I. One of the characters and I relate to it in that kind of way. But I think what captured me so much is the way I felt even when I was watching things without words, which is you. So whether I'm watching them drive down this dirt road and it's stretching far and wide, or the big open skies or the way the sun is coming down on the sharecroppers, it invokes this feeling in me, and I'm sure for everyone else who's watching it as well. Can you talk a little bit about the importance and the emphasis of telling the story without words and that feeling that you were trying to. That I felt that, you know, you were trying to invoke.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, my father was born in New Orleans, so.

[A]

Is that so?

[C]

Yeah. My mom's Filipino. My dad was born in New Orleans, and I hadn't been back there since 2016. I did a commercial there, but prior to that I hadn't been there since pre Katrina. So my family's homes are no longer there. They all migrated to Texas after Katrina. So my aunties would come to set, my cousins would come to set. I've said this in some interviews, but, like, this whole project made me start to look into my ancestry. Cause essentially I was like, to my auntie, I'm like, can you send me some census stuff? Or, like, how did grandma get here? And crazy stories, crazy ass shit. So she was sending me all this stuff while we were shooting that I never really looked into. My mom raised me, so I'm, you know, a little bit more, like raised, you know, in that Filipino culture. But, like, we always visited New Orleans, so being able to be on the ground and on Ryan's sets, there's so many. It's just so diverse, right? You look around that set and you see people. You see you. You know, you see your family, you see people.

[A]

That.

[C]

Your representation is great. And so it feels very comfortable. And I do feel like we're both emotional shooters. Like, it has to be felt. And a lot of the people that he puts on his crew are also like that. And so I do feel like a lot of this movie comes from us. You know, it's a lot of the people that made it, like, have history in it. So when you're framing things and you're out in, you know, you're shooting people that are supposed to be driving through cotton fields, and you see Omar there with his wife, like, you feel that, like, whether or not you've been there, like, you feel it in your bones. So the camera's essentially telling you where to put it, you know, and then the format and all those different things that we chose to tell that story, I think heighten all of that. But there's some history there that is important to me and also to Ryan. Like my great grandmother, who's Irish, she was in Mississippi and then migrated to New Orleans and then started her. That whole family.

[A]

Was she a goddamn vampire?

[C]

No, she wasn't.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Yes. But it's funny, right? I was looking into. I was like, what? Grandma? Great grandma? What? Did what in the graveyard? What? You know, with who?

[A]

Huh?

[C]

You know, that kind of thing. And so it's just nice to, like, learn. You learn from Ryan. He's. He gives you a project. It's a film. But now I'm learning, like, about my own culture and being able to storytell with that, so it's pretty cool.

[A]

I want to ask you about Mahjong later. Yeah. But before I get there, there's talk Online about something very distinct, which is how beautiful the black people look in this movie. Because I gotta be honest with you, there are some other movies with beautiful black people in them, but they are not lit correctly. Lighting people of color, people with dark, rich skin. Talk a little bit about that and why everyone in Sinners looks so good while the light compliments them so well. Why when we look at other places and we see them not being lit correctly in this movie, they look so beautiful.

[C]

No, it's funny. I did a talk yesterday, like a VFX talk, and the first question was this brother, he stood up and he said exactly that, you know, and it wasn't to talk about the film overall. It was mostly like VFX and stuff like that. But I've heard that a few times. And honestly, I think, like, I'm not trying to over light a black person. Like, this is. These are my people. Like, I don't feel like we need to shine extra light on someone just to see someone. Right. The skin is dense and it has a quality and patina to it that's beautiful. So I think paying attention to that is more important. Lighting people being beautifully for what skin tone they have, but also understanding that it's like, I think, and Brian being so brave and like us doing other work together, like on Panther, you know, we. We want our people to look great. Like, it's not about, like, they're standing next to someone who's Caucasian, and I need to put more light on them. Like, everyone's treated the same, you know, Just because they're varying skin tones doesn't mean that this person needs to be overlit. And you'll get told to over light a black person for sure. But that's just not how I roll. You know, it's like, I think there's so much beauty in that texture. And I kind of learned that in watching, like, Bradford Young's earlier work. Like, there's so much. Like you said, it's just every, every, every shade has its own texture and kind of reflective color. You know, whether it's a cooler tone or a warmer tone or yellow or red. And there's so much beauty in that. And so I think, you know, keeping things in the shadows really accentuates that. So I find that it's all there. It's just how you treat it. But it also makes sense because, like, I am a person of color, so not to outcast other people that, you know, my husband's a white male, but, you know, you know, your own skin tone and What? The beauty, you know, how to find that beauty in that.

[A]

So can we stay there one second? That's very interesting because we talk about all the different things that make up what Hollywood is and what moviemaking is and how we get films and stories that are unique but also authentic to us. And we think about that a lot of times in performance, and we think about that a lot of times in story, but we don't think about it technically. Yeah, we don't think about who's lighting the movie. We don't think about who's green lighting the movie. We don't think about the people behind the scenes that make black people look beautiful, authentic, and sometimes even ethereal. Right. How important is it to have not just black people green lighting movies, writing movies, but Black people as DPs, Black people in lighting, black people and grip, people of color, bipoc people in all of these places that actually set the scene and make the movie look the way it's supposed to in wardrobe, you know, all of that stuff.

[C]

No, it's important. I mean, I learned that, like, I found that community with Ryan. To be honest, I have a community outside of, you know, films that I do with Ryan. But it was nice to feel that and see that. And I have not known that since before doing Wakanda. And you meet so many technicians that are people of color that you wouldn't have normally met because you're being introduced to them on a set like that. Right? Because it's not like, you know, I always feel, because being a female dp, like, I don't want to get hired because I'm a woman. Like, I just don't like the work is there. You know, I've studied it and I've done it. So I want to get hired for my work. Now. It's obviously a bonus, right, if you put me on your set because I'm a person of color and I'm a woman. So that's great for you. But, like, please hire me because you like the work. And I think with Ryan, there are so many people out there that are unknown. And I've been introduced to them. People of color in the business, and they're there. You just have to seek them out. And I think my community, like, I've met a lot through Bradford, through Ryan, and it's been great. Cause I had this photo that I posted of my camera team, and I think I saw one comment. I try not to read comments because, like, now I'm all in it now. And it was like, where Are all the women? And I was like, where are all the women? Look at all the people of color. Like, whether or not it's a man or a woman, like, that's more important to me that, like, I'm being surrounded by different. Like, my second AC is Filipino, and I found him through my ac, my first assistant camera. And it's just nice to have people, like, culturally filling out that feel like your cousins or your family, and they're great at their job. So, yeah, I tried it, like, my Steadicam operator, who I found, and you've probably seen in some videos, Renard. I found him through my husband, who had been using him, and I hadn't used Renard before. And, you know, those cameras are very heavy.

[A]

Very heavy.

[C]

Yeah. So, like, he didn't really have a. He did Magazine Dreams with my husband. My husband shot Magazine Dreams, and there's this oner Steadicam shot in this. I don't know if you've seen that movie yet. Yeah, we've seen it. Yeah. You see that oner where he follows him all the way to stage when.

[A]

He gets the shit kicked out of him and then he has to make.

[B]

That's your husband? Yes, Renard.

[C]

Well, my husband shot it. He was the dp, and Renard is the Steadicam operator. So that's. That's, like, I think, Renard's first film. And so when I was looking for a Steadicam operator, most of the people that had done these IMAX pictures before with the rig were unavailable. So my husband's like, call Renard. He's got you. Like, he can do it. And so this was, like, a big deal. And Renard killed it in this film because Ryan loves Steadicam, and we put it on that rig a lot. But so it's like, I met him through my husband. But, like, you know, they're out there, and then you give them opportunities, you know, and, you know, they're great. You know, so it's. I do think what you say, it's very important, and I think having the right community introduces you to that. And I think some people just don't have access because they're not looking right. They just got a little shield on their face.

[B]

I think what's so important, too, I love the question about the way you show how, like, the richness of black people and people of color. Because I've been on set before where all they do is, oh, we need to brighten her. And they show a light at me, or I've had a makeup Artist say to me when I had an issue with makeup, oh, well, they just don't know how to light people of color. And I was shook by that. So what you're bringing, you know, hopefully it catches on fire and people start to realize, hey, we need to add more care, you know, and show the beauty of black people. People of color.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I do want to talk about you being a woman and making history in the way that you shot this film. Can you talk about what it is like to be a woman in a male dominated film, but also like the different perspective that you have and the edge that I feel like it gives you being a woman and what you add to a project with that.

[A]

Because this was special because of the IMAX cameras, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The first woman to shoot on the IMAX cameras in like 60 years or something like that.

[C]

Well, I think no woman has ever shot a movie on this format. And as you guys know, it's like no one's really playing with this format except for Christopher Nolan and Hoyta, that team, right. That are putting movies out consistently using this format. So it was, it was unbeknownst to me. And then I got a text from Kodak. Vanessa Bendetti, who runs Kodak, is the. The head of motion picture. And I was driving the set and she's like, I think you're the first woman to shoot a movie on 65. And I was like, okay, you know. Cause I'm, you know, we're in production. And then I told Ryan and he's like, it's a big deal, you know, But I think with him, he's always given me opportunities like that and many people opportunities like that where, you know, he reaches so far, he's so brave. And we're doing things that no one's done before, right? So everybody on the set is being heard and seen and felt and given these opportunities. So it's not, you know, I never thought like, oh, I'm the first to do this or that. It's just like, you know, I'm shooting for Ryan. This is what we're gonna do. We're gonna shoot a bunch of people underwater for Wakanda and we're gonna do it for real. And we're gonna do this car chase. We're gonna do that, you know. So, like, I love what I do and I love his excitement and I love learning from him. And that's really the inspiration. I think what people don't realize is, like, when you're on a good set with good people that inspire you, the Work just shines, right? And so I think, because we've built this, like, family, and we all want to do a good job, you can tell, like, we're always, like, trying to do the best, and we're. And, you know, we're competing, essentially, right? Because we're in the business. We've got a unique story to tell, and we want it to be seen and heard. But, you know, we're. We are the minority in the group, as, you know, and also as women, like, in my field. And I work with a bunch of men, so I spend most of my day telling a bunch of men what to do. So I try not to bring that home because that can make you a bit aggressive and, you know, f bombing all the time. But, yeah, I take it very seriously. Like, I think for other girls to see that, right? Cause I've been getting a lot of messages now, like, oh, this is so great. Like, you're inspiring me. And then Filipino girls and black girls and all this stuff, and you realize like, how important it is because there's not that many of us out there. So, yeah, I find that he has given me this opportunity not only to do good work, but also to be this person to inspire people.

[A]

So, yeah, the movie looks old. So I'm from down there, right? So I'm from Baton Rouge.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes, I'm from Baton Rouge, the movie. So there are parts. And this doesn't happen as much in la. Some places it happens in la, but when you are from Louisiana, there are moments where you just get, like, shifted back in time. Now, sometimes the old black people do it, and it's not always pleasant. Like, you'll be driving by some. A tree with, like, your uncle, and they'd be like, they used to hang niggas from that tree. And I'll be like, can you just take me to basketball practice? Like, I don't need. You know what I mean? Can you just, like. You know what I mean? Like, let's just get. I don't. I don't want to go through the whole thing right now, but when I get to Mary Gwynn, where my father is buried. Now, when I get to different places, like, outside of the city, I feel it, right? I look out and I see the sun and I see all of this stuff that hasn't changed in 200 years or whatever. How did you guys get sinners to look like that? Sinners? Besides the period wardrobe and the cars and all of that stuff, it looks and feels just like that feeling that you have when you're looking at something from the antiquated south, like, from a visual standpoint. How did you guys do that?

[C]

Yeah. Cause I think a lot of the questions I get are, like, what are your references? And people always want, like, this tangible one kind of movie reference. But I always say that when I work with Ryan, the best inspiration or the biggest reference for me is this, like, first phone call we have where he explains the heart and the soul of the film, right? And the themes or what it means to him, you know? And so we had that call, and in that call, he told me to check out a book by Eudora Welty. It's called Photographs, and it's of this woman back in the 30s who's a writer and a photographer. Took a bunch of portraits of, like, Mississippians, you know, in rural Mississippi, doing work on porches, family life, you know, picking cotton. And it's beautiful book. And so I bought the book on Amazon and I got the book, and I was like, I got you. Like, you know what I mean? It's like you just know exactly what he's going for.

[A]

And he knows.

[C]

And he knows. Yes, in his mind, he knows these things. And I think when you collaborate with the right people, right? And have the same taste as you, and you can see them, you just got it. Like, they explain to you, like, from here. From here. And then they tell you, like, check this out. And so that was the first thing he told me to check out. And I found, like, four photographs that I loved in the book. And they're black and white, so it's not about, like, exact reference, but it's about a moment, capturing a moment, and then choosing film, right? That's already. You're layering on that nostalgia and that vintage quality and then how you expose it. He loves Kodachrome. They don't make Kodachrome anymore. And there's all these old. Kodachrome is a type of reversal film that Kodak used to make that they don't make anymore. They make a film called Ektachrome, which is a reversal film. So you would see, like, it's not a negative, it's a reversal film. But, like, very saturated colors. Like, did you see the last season of Euphoria?

[A]

I did.

[C]

Okay, so that's a little bit. A little bit.

[B]

I saw it.

[C]

Yeah. Very saturated, right? So that was Ektachrome. We did have some Ektachrome made for us on this picture. But in these old Kodachrome photographs that you saw from the 30s or actually 40s, they were. They would Farm service Administration would go out there and take pictures, right? And just of documenting the land and the people. And they have this really beautiful patina to them in density. And I'm sure you've seen, like, in your own family, you, old photographs, right? And so that was a reference that Hannah had a bunch of those photos on her wall. And he sent me a few of those. And I should send them to you because you would just. It would click.

[A]

It would click right away.

[C]

And I had a few of those on my wall. And so you're really, after exposing the film in a way to kind of get that look. So it feels of a different time and place and has that. Just that density, you know? And it comes with the skin too, right? You feel that skin. It's not thin. It has weight to it.

[B]

What was your favorite shot or sequence to shoot?

[C]

The church? Oh, Sol and Miles in the church.

[A]

Well, it bookends the movie.

[C]

Bookends the movie. And we shot it in two different formats. And I've talked about this a lot, but, like, if you even knew what was going on that day in that church, like, when we. You know, you just walk in there and we had all the. There's little girls in there and there's old people in there, like our extras, and there's a choir and they're singing. And then Saul's in there, you know, preaching. And he's acting, but he's. But he. Is he acting? You know what I mean? Like, it's so beautiful. And then Miles was playing music in some parts and we shot the. When he goes there in the morning to grab the guitar, we shot in the Ultra Panavision, which is what's on the back of your hat, which is the wider frame. And then we went back and Ryan changed that sequence when he has a scratch on his face to imax. And it just felt like you were in a real church back in the 30s. And, you know, you were sitting next to your auntie and that's what was happening. And so the camera was just moving around and finding all these beautiful shots. And the. You know, Hannah built that church, so that's a set that she built and aged, you know, to have that patina. And so. And then Ruth's costume's all white, you know, so you got. Everyone's dressed in white in this white space. You just felt it like, you know, I'm crying. You know, I'm operating. I'm crying because it was all there for you just to, like, you know, grab. So, yeah, I felt that scene Like, I honestly, I love that scene. And then my second favorite would be the farmhouse with Jackson when he jumps into frame.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[C]

That whole sequence. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you guys saw it in imax, right? You were able to see.

[A]

I saw it in. Yeah, I saw it at CityWalk. Okay, yeah, yeah, so I saw it. I saw it at CityWalk. Yeah. So you know what I love about that scene where he jumps in the frame right there, you know, obviously the sun's getting to him and stuff like that. But I love the Native American brothers.

[B]

Oh, without a doubt.

[A]

I love them because they roll up, they tell her, you know, they tell her, they say, hey, this guy's not what he seems. And, you know, they want to get in there. They want to. And then the homie goes, hey, something's going down. It's above us now. We told y', all, we told you guys that the guy's weird. You got a gun on us. You know, we already have some fucked.

[B]

Up history and we never see them again.

[A]

No, because they have. It's your problem. You brought them in there. We tried to help you. I'm gonna put you to the test with something. But before we do, I want to talk about shooting in the IMAX format in terms of. I want people to come away with an understanding of what that means. Because you're shooting gigantic cameras, huge film stuff, Right. If they didn't get to see Ryan's 10 minute Kodak explainer, which you really should watch.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What does it mean for the layperson when it says shot in imax, when you say only Nolan's doing that, when you say shot in imax? I think people don't really know what that means. Explain it to them. What does that mean?

[C]

Yeah, okay, so it's filmed in imax, right? Filmed for us. Because what? Oh, actually, you know, I think the tag on all the marketing is filmed with IMAX cameras, because you can only get that tag if you film with the film in the IMAX camera. Otherwise you've seen we did Wakanda or other bigger action films. It says filmed for imax. So filmed for IMAX would be with the digital cameras at a 190 aspect ratio, which is a shorter aspect ratio than our 1, 4, 3. So what the 143iMax in the film cameras is, it's 65 millimeter film and it's running through the camera horizontally. So it's going like this in the camera. And you've seen the cameras. It's like a box, right? So that's very heavy. Right? A lot of film. And that's why it's so loud. Because for that machine to pull that much film through the camera, it has to be loud. The other camera that we use, the film is 65, and it's five perforations. So, you know, we're talking about on the side. So it's high 5 perfs high. And then the IMAX is 15 perfs high. So it's much bigger. So it's a bigger image. And for the other one, it goes vertically through the camera. So it's a completely different camera system. It's called a system 65. It's built by Panavision. And that's where you see the scopey shots, which are the 2.76 shots. So we go from 2.76, which is the 5 PERF, and runs this way through the camera vertically. And then we go to the IMAX shot that it just jumps upright and it's much taller. And that's 15 perforations. And that's filmed with IMAX cameras. So he. You know, we ended up exploring these in our prep where we went to the desert and we did a test. Cause he wanted to see how that ratio would work, because no one's ever done that before. So he's the first person that would have done that, you know, doing both of those aspect ratios and putting them together. So we did that. And it just felt right, like, for the storytelling aspects that he wanted to go for. So. So that's what that means. And then if you're. The other layer of it that you get from this video is that there aren't many theaters. I think 10 theaters are projecting a print of the 70 millimeter. So you shoot on 65, and then it's projected 70 with sound. So you went to CityWalk, and that's one of the theaters and actually the only theater in Los Angeles that's projecting the 15 perf IMAX.

[A]

The Vista, I think, might have it.

[C]

The Vista has five perfect.

[A]

Oh, five perf. Okay. Yeah.

[C]

I went there the other day, actually. It was the first time I was with a real audience. And I have a real affinity for that print because I'm obsessed with just that scope, you know, and it's. You only see it in the width. So all the IMAX shots are cropped 276.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So it's a different experience. It's all still there emotionally, but you're not getting that jump. So that's why you have to go to IMAX to get that jump. And then. So if you ever watch a movie like these other films, you'll see one nine zero, which is the other aspect ratio that Ryan explains. And that's what you would mostly shoot for digital. So it's not as tall as the 143 because that's for the negative and that's for shooting actual film. So it's a little shorter. But yeah, it's becoming very popular now because I think he explained it really well to people that were like, what the fuck am I? You know, what is this shit, you know, that they're marketing to me?

[A]

Film geek question. If the camera's that loud, how is that not interrupting your audio?

[C]

Exactly. So when we first went through the script, you're going through the script going like, okay, so what can we shoot with this non sync sound camera, right? Cause it's too loud. And the fact is, is there were a lot of scenes in the movie that had dialogue. There weren't very many scenes, like at the end, you know, when the vampire battle happens. That would be something that we earmarked for IMAX because it's all action. But as we started shooting, we fell in love with the format and he started seeing things in IMAX and wanting to change scenes that would be dialogue scenes to IMAX. So they ADR'd it, so. Oh, exactly. So they ADR'd it. So you're recording sound, let's call it a guide track. But the camera is so loud. And then afterwards he's discussing ahead of time, are you okay to shoot this scene? You know, having discussions with his actors, making sure they're okay with having that. Being able to do the recording of the sound later. So those scenes, like Farmhouse, where they're talking, the camera is right next to their heads. So they are doing ADR after.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I. Okay, layperson question. Because of the popularity with how this film was shot or shot by IMAX cameras, do you think that this is what people will demand more of? Or is it just not possible because of the expense and the experience?

[C]

I mean, without like going into the whole film, you know, kind of education on, like studio system budgets where we're at right now, Right? It's, I think this original script that is so good and so just. It's like zeitgeist, right? Like he just hit it, you know, it's like everyone can relate to it, Everyone loves it. Word of mouth is happening. This doesn't happen often. So the fact that he made the choice to shoot on this format is another layer of what's great about it, right, because it's exciting and new. But you also have to remember, like, we're working in a certain system and we had a certain budget, you know, so there are a lot of films that probably aren't as big that don't have access to this, you know, because it does take, you know, you have to develop the film and then you have to do a scan the film, you have to do a di. And then you have to print it out if you're going to, you know, show it in a theater projection, you know, film. And so there's all these different layers. But I can only hope that more filmmakers that have the means and are doing, you know, scopey type stories are now going to say, you know what? I want to do this. And essentially, that's what happened with Ryan. He's very good friends with Christopher Nolan, and that team is a big inspiration to us and him. You know, Ryan talks about. And I'm sure you remember I was in the theater the first night I saw the Dark Knight when that fucking bank sequence came on. I was like, what is happening? What is happening right now? And it's like you don't. Like, you can't even erase that shit from your mind. Like, I think about that bank sequence and I was watching this and I was like, my. You know, it's like you just were, like, melting into the screen and so.

[A]

Batpaw chase sequence as well.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. It's so good.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so, like, Ryan talks about when he bought his ticket, he stood in line, you know, so he's inspired by that. And I feel like other people will be, too, but. Yeah, it is. There is a certain level at which you know that, like, you need. There's a cost to these things.

[A]

But interesting. The ADR situation for you guys don't know what ADR is. That means that the actors went in and then recorded their lines over again to sync them with the picture, which is done a lot of times to fill in story gaps in other movies and stuff like that or whatever. But in a movie that's this performance dependent and you can't tell. It's phenomenal. All right, before you get out of here, the test.

[C]

I don't even. Did I miss this shit on the last.

[A]

Oh, wait.

[C]

Oh, I think I remember. There's a question here.

[A]

No, no, no. On Omar.

[B]

No, he saved this just for you.

[A]

He saved this just for you. No one even knows. Okay.

[C]

I don't even know.

[A]

So twins.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

It's said from A lot of people that only mothers can tell them apart.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

You are essentially the visual mother of this film. So we're gonna see whether or not you can tell Smoke and Stack apart.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Right here. So I'm gonna show you a picture.

[C]

Oh, shit. I got this shit.

[A]

And you have to tell me whether or not this is smoke.

[C]

Smoke.

[A]

This is smoke.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, let's see. That's smoke. Okay.

[B]

She put on the back.

[A]

Okay. Smoke or stack?

[C]

Stack.

[A]

You sure? Yeah, that's Stack.

[B]

She doesn't. There's no hesitation.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I was the operator on this bitch. I know what these are.

[A]

Smoke or Stack?

[C]

That's smoke.

[A]

Smoke.

[C]

Oh, I know. When he takes his hat off. Yeah, yeah, that's Stack.

[A]

Stack.

[C]

Yeah, he took his hat off when he was talking to Mary and he got soft in the face.

[A]

He got soft. And that's a performance thing in the face.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So of all of these, you only left your kid at the market one time. You ever see those movies?

[C]

But you know what's funny? Michael's so good, right? In that moment. He, like. You saw that transition, right? When he's like, what do you want me to tell you? Like, I love you and I miss you. And it's like everyone in theater just, like, going crazy.

[A]

Yeah, that's what he's talking. He's talking to her.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, he's like. That's what you want to hear?

[A]

You want me to turn from Mike? Mike is fantastic.

[C]

That was such a cool exercise. Yeah, that's pretty good.

[A]

You're good. Smoke or Stack? Because I'm looking at it very.

[B]

I couldn't tell.

[A]

By the way. By the way, it was very difficult to pick out photos where the wardrobe wasn't there.

[B]

That's what I thought it was.

[C]

Obviously, if his mouth is open, you can see the teeth. Right.

[B]

I honestly thought their hair was different too, so I thought that you would tell for.

[A]

By the way, that's a visual thing for you people that aren't watching on YouTube. You know, you gotta see it to know it. Autumn, this is a fantastic achievement.

[C]

Thank you very much.

[A]

And you guys deserve to be celebrated in the way that you are being celebrated right now. Okay? So drink it all in. Do you see yourself directing one day?

[C]

It's so funny because I got an email this morning, and I feel like when a female DP is at the height of her career, right where you want to be, right where you're starting to get to the zone of people are watching your stuff, they know you shot it. Everyone always asks you that question, it's like the first question that comes up. Right. And I think because maybe there have been few before me that have done that. Right? They did that. But it's interesting because, like, Ryan asked me to do the Rihanna video, and for me, it's like, that's all visuals, right? And obviously you're connecting with this amazing woman, but stuff like that is. You know, I grew up doing music videos that are mostly visual, and it's like music. But, like, I love the relationship so much with the team that I have or like, the people that I work with. I work with Giacoppola a lot, and we're like a family that, like, I like being able to execute their vision. And I would miss so much having that. Right. Like. Cause it's so much work, seeing all the work Ryan does, My God. And I find that, like, I'm so crazy about my visuals that, like, I could never relinquish that, you know, to somebody. Maybe in 20 years we can have another talk about it. But, yeah, no, it's come up for sure. But I like where I'm at.

[A]

Where you're at.

[B]

I like that answer.

[A]

I like that answer too. Thank you for so much. Thank you so much for joining us.

[C]

Thanks for asking.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you for the hat.

[C]

You guys can.

[A]

Ooh. I got one last question before you leave. I had a hair transplant, and how would you. How would you like my hairline to make it look fuller?

[C]

Okay. So, you know, there are people on my set that, like, don't always have the perfect hair. And women also have thinning hair.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So you have to. But the makeup. You work with the makeup artist. So that person usually comes up to you, would announce that you're concerned with that to me.

[A]

Right.

[C]

We'd have a personal conversation. She'd be like, he's a little sensitive to that, so can you look out for him?

[A]

Right?

[C]

And I would just pay attention to it lighting wise. And we would fill it in with some makeup.

[A]

Little makeup.

[C]

Yeah. And I wouldn't put it. So spotlight on it. It'd be softly lit, you know, it wouldn't be front lit. Like brightly front lit.

[A]

Right. Cause that's what they did to me at. At the Z Medical. This is what they do to you. This is what they do to you. When you come in for the consultation, they sit you down.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And shout out to Zarian Medical. And they put you right under this light, and the light shines directly on your head, lights it all up. And then they take a photo and you're like, God hates me. You're like, I gotta do something about this. And then they give you the photo, and you just sit there and you look at it, and then you call them up.

[B]

There's no turning back.

[A]

There's no turning back.

[B]

You gotta get it after all.

[C]

Also, I shoot a lot with soft lenses. Like, I like the vintage look, so a lot of my stuff has soft. There's a soft quality to it that helps as well.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you. Now I know what to do. Autumn, thank you so much for joining us.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you.

[C]

I'm about to go to City Walk right now.

[A]

You're about to go right now?

[C]

Yeah, like, after this.

[B]

I'm.

[C]

I have not seen that print at City Walk. I'm about to go there with my friend. I'm taking her and her husband, and I'm gonna sit in the audience and watch it.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

You're gonna love it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So if I told her before, if I had shot centers, I will walk in there with a shirt.

[C]

I wore this for you.

[B]

I forgot.

[A]

There you go. Yeah. That's awesome. Like, I shot this movie, you guys. Sinners is still in theaters. If you love original films, if you love just good movies, there's a whole bunch of cultural reasons that you should go see this movie and a whole bunch of industry reasons. But the main reason to go see the film is because it's excellent and you'll have a good time. So go enjoy yourself and continue to go second, third time, another weekend. Autumn, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much. Thank you. Fantastic. She's great.

[B]

Great interview. Great interview. Rachel and I love the game.

[A]

Have you heard about the 100 black men versus a gorilla situation?

[B]

How have I not? This is everywhere, particularly by men. It's like, you guys. Something with you guys in, like, National Geographic, Animal Planet. Like, you just. You guys just take this and run with this. I don't know what the fascination is. It's so interesting. I would have. If I would have seen this tweet, I would have just scrolled past it. But the life that this has taken on is really impressive. What do I think about this? Do I think 100 so specifically black.

[A]

Men in this particular. In this particular conversation, do you think.

[B]

100 black men could beat one gorilla?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Absolutely not.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because my understanding is it's just the black men. There's no weapons.

[A]

No weapons.

[B]

It is just them against this one gorilla.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have even watched some videos on gorillas fighting since this came out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, the Gorillas winning.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Without a doubt.

[A]

Okay. All right. First of all, I wanna say. The first thing I wanna say is watch nature shows. Watch the Americas. Last night on NBC. Stunning blue whales racing. Two male blue whales racing to impress a female. Biggest animal in the history of the world. They don't want us to know about animals because it's easier to destroy the environment. I believe this.

[B]

I believe that.

[A]

The reason why, remember we talked about this when we first started the podcast, that they just stopped teaching us about animals. That's the same way that they stopped teaching us about money. They stopped teaching us about our natural world, in my opinion, because if you watched everything that's going on in the ocean, it makes you think about taking care of this amazing ecosystem that we have. So much more. If you watch the animals, if you appreciate the animals, if you see the blue of the ocean, if you appreciate what the sea lion or the otter has to do to protect its baby, everything that it's going through to survive and thrive in nature, you think twice about hurting that environment. And so you guys get into animals. We're gonna do more animal stuff. We came off of the animal situation. We got away from it.

[B]

Yeah, we should bring it back for sure.

[A]

But I have thoughts about the.

[B]

But this is. This is not real life.

[A]

I have thoughts about the 100 black man versus a gorilla thing.

[B]

I'm sure you do.

[A]

We can win.

[C]

How?

[B]

Van, Glad you asked. No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Dan, how much time did you have this weekend? Okay, for those of you not watching, there's a whiteboard and a photograph.

[A]

Okay, so this is the situation. A hundred black men versus a gorilla. Wild gorilla. So let's get into the gorilla first. This is another reason why you guys should be watching the podcast, right? Watch the podcast on Spotify, watch the podcast on YouTube. Like, comment, subscribe. Okay, first thing, let's look at the gorilla here. We're going to go an average size gorilla. Okay, Average size gorilla, that's 6ft, 400 pounds. But brolic as fuck, though. Brolic, Rachel. Wingspan of an Average sized gorilla, 8ft, 8ft wingspan. That's a problem for us. Here's the deal. As I was doing research on the gorilla, I saw that there are larger gorillas. There's seven foot one gorilla that they had one time. One gorilla was like 6,5 fucking £700 or something like that. If we run into one of those, I don't think we can get it done. But if we're talking about 100 black men versus the average gorilla, we can win. Okay? It's not about what we do, but how we do it.

[B]

This gorilla is not 6 foot, £400, but definitely bigger. And this is the kind of gorilla I see y' all fighting, okay? That's the only gorillas I know, okay?

[A]

You have to let me get through the plan.

[B]

You ain't fight. You ain't knocking this one down.

[A]

You have to let me get through the plan.

[B]

Well, that's not average size.

[A]

Whatever. You don't even know that's a scale. You guys, can you see him? That's a gorilla to scale right here. Okay, so first of all, let's talk about this. Key weaknesses of the gorilla. Limited endurance, fragile organs. It's primate fragile organs, limited endurance. That's why we need a plan. Okay? Hundred guys, we're not gonna all attack at the same time. We're gonna attack in waves. And we're gonna have different skill sets for how we attack. Different skill sets. We're gonna attack in waves. First thing I gotta tell you guys, this is very important down here. Some will die, okay? Some of y', all, you're dead. All of us are not going to make it out of this. Some of you will die. Okay? I was thinking about a cause that would make us do this.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

But there's not a cause I can think of. Do we fight the gorilla for reparations? That gets into, like, super duper fucking problematic territory? Because I feel like the white people would like that. It's like, hey, make them fight a guerrilla for them things. And then. But that's not what we. We don't want to do that. First thing to understand, though, some of you are going to die, okay? Five different waves of 20 men at a time is how we're gonna fight. Let me tell you what the strategy is, Rachel, okay? The first wave, these are the meat sacks. That's wolf fork. Yeah. The first wave, these are the meat sacks. Okay, Rachel, Rachel, can you be serious, though? I'm serious.

[B]

The names next to this, I'm. Wait, you gotta explain to who these people are.

[A]

Okay, Go. The first waves are the meat sacks. Can you.

[B]

It's the. Okay, go, go, go, go, go, go, go.

[A]

The first waves are the meat sacks, okay? These are big, big burly guys, over £300, Vince Wilfork types. If you guys don't know who Vince Will Fork is, he was a defensive tackle for the Patriots back in the day. But when you saw him, he was big. Now he's huge. A lot of these guys are gonna die because their job as the meat sacks is to make this into a bloody mess, right? A bloody mess. They gotta get blood in the eyes of the gorilla. They gotta get viscera all over the gorilla. We need the gorilla to be slippery, falling over the whole nine. We have to bloody things up. So of the meat sacks, they're going in, they're getting.

[B]

All 20 die.

[A]

A lot of them die.

[B]

All 20 die.

[A]

I don't know if it's all 20, but a lot of the meat sacks are gonna die, right? We need you to go in there, rip, like, pull all of that. But really, we need blood in the eyes of the gorilla so he can't see. We need him to be disoriented. Okay, Second wave are the runners. Now, these guys aren't gonna die a lot because their job is really not to engage with the gorilla. The gorilla is like, he's already disoriented and he's already expended some energy. So the runners are there to taunt him and to disorient him even further. So we're talking about no allows type of guys for the runners here. They're going to go up to the gorilla, get his attention, and then run away. The gorilla's going to chase, right? He's on his knuckles, he's going to chase. Another guy's going to tap him, run away, he's going to chase. Remember, it's slippery, so he's gonna fall down, he's gonna chase. He's gonna chase. He's gonna chase. He's gonna fall down.

[B]

Are the runners gonna fall down?

[A]

The runners might fall down. Well, I can't guarantee that some of the runners aren't gonna die. We can only get the right spikes for them, the right cleats for them, the right type of. We're gonna have to have a sponsor, so we're gonna. I can't guarantee that they all live. I can't.

[B]

Oh, I'm sure there could be some sponsors that would contribute to this.

[A]

Absolutely. I can't guarantee that all of the runners make it out, but their job is to get the last remaining endurance. We need the gorilla's heart rate up. We need him to get sapped. Third wave, the Light Brutes.

[B]

Okay, who are they?

[A]

The Light Brutes are going to kick the arms and the legs of the gorilla. We need lighter, competent strikers. I'm going to tell you why they have to be lighter. We need them to be lighter because we need sharp, angled bones. When you kick like a UFC fighter kicks, you get calcified shins and your shins get really tough. But we need that from lighter guys to really beat on the arms of the gorilla. Beat on his arms. Beat on his fucking legs. Kick his fucking throat. Kick the gorilla. Kick him. Philip Rowe, shout out to my nigga, Philip, Philip, I love you.

[B]

He also killed you.

[A]

But, Philip, you gotta go with the Light Brutes, okay? Philip Rowe from the ufc. I love you. Philip, you got to go with the Light Brutes. Philip Rowe is what I'm talking about. Kicking the gorilla's arms, kicking his legs, kicking his knees. Really making a difference. Fourth Wave, Heavy Brutes. These are your Aaron Donalds. These guys are going to SAP the gorilla. Now, you might say, are they like the meat sacks? No. I'll tell you what the difference is. The meat sacks are really, really, really fat.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, yeah.

[A]

The Aaron Donalds guys, these are guys stocky, stocky, Stack can handle themselves, aren't going to get tired as fast as the meat sacks will because they have to SAP the rest of the energy. They're taking advantage of a weakened gorilla. Let's take advantage of him.

[B]

And they're more mobile, they're more agile. Yeah, they're big. But when you do football players, I could talk about.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I'm talking. See what the fuck I'm talking about. Now you're on board the Aaron Donalds, okay? This is the Brutes. Also, like, a UFC heavyweight is good for this, right? If you're talking about a Daniel Cormier. You know what I mean? If you're talking about somebody like that. These are the Heavy Brutes, Fifth Wave, The Finishers. The Jon Jones types, okay? Politics aside, vital striking now from guys who are big and strong, but technically sound. These guys are going to come in and hit the throat and the neck of the gorilla. The gorilla can't really fight back now. He's tired, he's disoriented, he's been beat on. The wingspan is the biggest deal, right? But we've kicked his arms, we've kicked his legs, we've kicked his throat, we've kicked him. We've hit the vital part. Look at it. This diagram I've made shows you the weak parts of a gorilla. The head. We're not even going to worry about that skull because I don't really believe that the chest of Ryan Davenport, a friend of mine, pointed out that that's probably not a weak point of the gorilla, because they beat their chest all the time and nothing seems to happen. But the fingers, okay? The throat, all of this is what's going on. Look at this. 100. Get the lights out of the way. 100 versus a gorilla. If we execute this plan and we get there motivated and unafraid, and with the knowledge some will die, we can win.

[B]

I will give you an A for effort. This took time. This took strategy. This took research. This is a well thought out plan. It really, really is. I still feel the same.

[A]

Jesus Christ.

[B]

And I'm gonna tell you the main reason. Oh, let me just talk like you, and I'm gonna tell you why.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

If 100 black men could come together to fight the beast, we'd be in power right now.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

If a hundred black men could come together, so y' all see what happens? Sacrifice.

[A]

Y' all see what happens?

[B]

Their bodies, their money, their time, their power, all for the greater good, to defeat the beast, we would be unstoppable. So my biggest thing is you ain't gonna find a hundred niggas that are gonna do this and sacrifice all of this in order to do the beast, cuz we ain't seen it yet.

[A]

That's not true. We basically, we came together for voting rights and all kinds of things. But you wanna continue to do this?

[B]

Well, we got. We did. We did good with voting rights, but we didn't continue with the economic power. We need a leader. We talked about this. Don't do this.

[A]

Don't do. That's what I. You know, it must be easy, Rachel. It must be easy to come into the podcast. No fucking plan, but also no fucking preparation and just shit on black men. We're trying to fight this fucking gorilla. Can we get unity right now?

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

I just fight the gorilla.

[B]

I just want you to support black men. I want you to use the same research and time and strategy to bring black men together to defeat the beast. I love it. I love the work. I'm just saying I don't believe that they'll do it. Especially when you got like the Saquons out here and stuff that'll work against you. Imagine if you had a Saquon in your midst, who you thought. Who you thought he would be? Cause Saquon. Saquon would probably be. He'd be one of the runners. He'd be one of the runners.

[A]

You know what he would do?

[B]

He'd run away. He'd run away and you're down to 99.

[A]

Well, if we made it depends on what this was, what the goal was. Let's say if wild.

[C]

Wild as if like a zoo one.

[B]

Not a zoo one.

[A]

Well, not a zoo one. Because first of All. First of all, see, the zoo gorillas are bigger. They're bigger in captivity.

[B]

Yeah, they are bigger.

[A]

So that's why I have the size here. But if we. Let's say we made this. All the white women you could have for the rest of your life. The saquons in the saguan.

[B]

The saquons would be. But others might not listen. I think that there are certain factors that. I love the plan. Again, I gave you all the compliments. I think there's certain other factors, like, you're just underestimate. The men have no weapons. They have hands and feet. The gorilla's mouth is a weapon. Its feet are a weapon. Its ass is a weapon. Its hands are a weapon. He could literally just sit on these men at a time and kill them. There's just so much that we're. There's so much. Is underestimated with the power that he's coming in with, not just because of size, because of what his appendages do at the same time that humans just don't have. It would be a good fight. What do they say in Legends of the Fall when Tristan goes out and he fights the bear? You like this movie reference? They say it was a good death. It was a good death. That's what they would say about these men. Donnie, thoughts?

[D]

I'm with Rachel. I like the effort. I love the effort that I like, love it.

[A]

This is the problem. Nobody believes in black men. I'm gonna bring Jason back on the podcast to get you guys straight. You guys only want to hear from him. If Jason Wilson said that 100 black men could beat the gorilla, you guys would believe it. But I say it, and nobody cares. Donnie, you don't think we could do it?

[D]

I believe in the gorilla, honestly. I mean, he's got teeth, he's got strength. And you might be. You honestly might be underselling the gorilla's endurance. He might have more endurance than you're thinking and, like, be ready for more. He might even take on 200.

[A]

Hold this up. This is the plan to beat the gorilla. If anybody wants to discuss this and talk about this, just hit me up. Guys. This is the plan to beat the gorilla. Don't listen to Rachel. Don't listen to Donnie.

[D]

I spend an entire Jomi's with me. Jomi says gorilla is sweeping gorilla.

[B]

And Ford, if you gave the men one weapon, they would easily do.

[A]

It's not fun. That's not fair.

[B]

Just one weapon.

[D]

Bare hands.

[A]

No.

[C]

No chance.

[A]

Okay, well, take your think caps off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathan Jr. We can get this done if we do it together.

[B]

And I'm Rachel Lynn Lindsey.

[C]

Bye, guys.