‘Sinners’ Box Office, ’The Quincy Avery Effect’, & How to Talk About Sex With Kamil Lewis

Summary

Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: ‘Sinners’ Box Office, ’The Quincy Avery Effect’, & How to Talk About Sex With Kamil Lewis
Date: April 22, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Van and Rachel celebrate Rachel’s 40th birthday and dive into an eventful mix of culture, sports, and personal growth. Major topics include a critical look at the blockbuster film “Sinners” and its box office narrative, an insightful conversation with quarterback coach Quincy Avery about his new documentary and impact on Black quarterbacks, and a frank, judgment-free dialogue with sex therapist Camille Lewis about Black sexual identity, porn, masculinity, and healthy conversations about sex.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rachel’s Birthday & Life Reflections

• Rachel turns 40 and opens up about not being where she once imagined, but feeling “exactly where I want to be” (02:11).
• “40 and free. Yeah, that's the...mantra.”
• Van and Rachel share mutual appreciation for working on their birthdays, showing dedication to the podcast and audience.

2. The Passing of Pope Francis & Representation in the Catholic Church

• The hosts react to the news of Pope Francis’s death and examine his progressive stances (supporting same-sex civil unions) and the possibility of a Black Pope (08:06).
• Donnie: “There's Peter Turkson, who's 76 and from Ghana... The second...Robert Sarah, who's 79 and from Guinea.”
• Van jokes about making contemporary Black pastors Pope, underscoring the intersection of pop culture and religion.

3. News “Quick Hitters”

Donnie delivers rapid news updates, including:

• Pete Hagseth’s involvement in military planning
• Kanye West’s shocking new song about childhood sexual experiences (12:22)

  • The hosts respond carefully to the sensitive content, noting the complexity of Kanye's vulnerability vs. his history of using shock value.

    • Rachel: “It is interesting that this time this is something that is personal about him.” (14:16)
    • Van: “In a moment where he might actually be truly being vulnerable and talking about something that's worth discussing, people might look at him as the boy who cried wolf.” (16:04)

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Main Segments

4. "Sinners" Box Office: Ownership, Media Narratives, and Representation

Starts: 16:58

Summary:

• “Sinners” tops the weekend box office and its financial deal (Ryan Coogler getting ownership rights after 25 years) causes industry anxiety.
• The hosts discuss the double standard in Hollywood coverage—Black creators’ success is often reframed as a threat.

Notable Quotes:

• Van: “When you saw Sinners be legitimately a $50 million domestic opening...on Easter weekend...to watch the trades come back and kind of hate was odd.” (26:49)
• Rachel: “Is it odd or is it just who is behind this movie and what it represents?” (27:20)

Takeaways:

• The power of ownership for Black filmmakers.
• Media narratives often undermine Black success by framing it as a threat to established institutions.

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5. Headlines: Shannon Sharpe Lawsuit & Boycotts

Starts: 30:54

Key Points:

• Discussion about sexual assault allegations against Shannon Sharpe and how public perception is affected by timing, media, and “ambulance-chasing” lawyers.
• Tony Busby’s reputation for high-profile litigation linked with Sharpe’s reported $100 million free agency negotiation.
• Van and Rachel dissect public opinion around allegations, the strategy of public silence, and the scrutiny Black celebrities face.

Notable Quote:

• Rachel: “Tony Busby has a track record that makes him look like he's what you would refer to as an ambulance chaser.” (35:05)

Boycott Coverage:

• Reverend Al Sharpton meets with Target about DEI rollbacks.
• The hosts express skepticism about “cosmetic” corporate gestures.
  • Van: “Don’t we all need to be in conversation about this to a deeper degree and a deeper level? …makes the whole thing look a little sleazy to me.” (44:24)
  • The segment includes a rundown of boycott lists and demands.

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6. “Glaze of the Week”: Rob Smith’s Viral Apology and Black Community

Starts: 49:41

• A conservative Black commentator apologizes to the parents of a white victim, on behalf of “the Black community.” Van and Rachel call this out as performative “dick riding” and self-hatred.
• They discuss who represents “the Black community” and challenge those who adopt anti-Black positions for acceptance elsewhere.

Notable Exchange:

• Rachel: “On behalf of the black community, shut the fuck up. That's my apology rating.” (57:13)
• Van: “There's a difference between being black and being a part of the black community. Community is shared values, purpose, and understanding.” (55:02)

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7. Colorado Football & The 'Quincy Avery Effect'

Starts: 70:20

• Discussion of University of Colorado’s plan to retire Travis Hunter and Shedeur Sanders’s numbers, stirring debate around merit and nepotism.
• Rachel: “The only reason he's doing this because it's his son. I'm sorry. And that's period. That's on anything. Period. That's it.” (76:20)

Guest: Quincy Avery (78:16)

Highlights:

• Quincy discusses the Hulu documentary "The Quincy Avery Effect," his journey from homelessness to elite QB trainer, and facing prejudice and reputation risks post-Deshaun Watson scandal.
• On supporting Watson:
  • Quincy: “If he made these mistakes, let's just say he did. I'm still not gonna abandon him. It's my brother… I'm not saying what he did was cool.” (83:12)
• Insight into training Black quarterbacks, refusing to “sell a dream” to families when talent is lacking, and the importance of adversity in athletic and life success.

On Nepotism:

• Refuses to bash Shaduer Sanders, stating he works hard and merits respect.

On NIL & Athlete Empowerment:

• Supports student-athletes getting paid, sees it as overdue.
  • Quincy: “Fuck these kids at schools, right? Like, they ain't been caring about Black kids for so long. Like, it's time for us to go get the bag and however you gotta do it, go do it.” (100:44)

Quarterback Coaching Live Demo:

• Van asks for tips on how to throw a football; Quincy gives a crash course, sparking a humorous and practical conversation (105:14).

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8. Sex, Shame, and Liberation: Conversation With Camille Lewis, Sex Therapist

Starts: 116:58

Key Topics:

• Black masculinity and sexuality: breaking stereotypes, normalizing pleasure, and resisting shame.
• Camille: “I would want Black men to know…their sexuality is their own. Because of [hypersexualization], you think you might need to perform a certain way…Being curious and exploring is most important.” (119:31)
• Generational attitudes toward discussing sex—Rachel’s experience with “abstinence only” Southern upbringing versus Van’s open, sex-positive family.
• The importance of talking directly with partners about sexual preferences, boundaries, and pleasure.
  • Rachel: “Do you ask your partner what they like sexually? And it blew my mind...Is that something—can you talk about the importance of asking?” (127:30)
• Purity culture and lingering shame among women.
• Porn use:
  • Camille reframes porn “addiction” as mostly overblown; true addiction is rare and more about interference with daily functioning (139:58)
    • Camille: “There also isn't, like, in the DSM really, like, a addiction to porn. That's not something that exists.”
• Ethical porn and aligning consumption with values.
• The need for comprehensive sex education—including consent, gender identity, and sexual pleasure—for both boys and girls.
• Decoupling religion and shame from discussions of sex for healthier personal development.

Notable Quotes & Moments:

• Camille: “The more you're talking about [sex], the more...talking about porn and sex makes consent more possible.” (148:35)
• Van: “How could you want the best for someone in life and not want them to be having good sex? So am I the weirdo, or is the audience, like, way too prudish? I'm a bunch of prudes in the world.” (133:03)
• Rachel: “For women, it's very romanticized...your sexuality actually has very little to do with your religion.” (157:26)

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Memorable Lighter Moments

• Van’s comical attempts at quarterback lingo and the ongoing glove-wearing bit.
• Rachel drinking on her birthday and admitting to goofing up football stats.
• The "Glaze of the Week" segment poking fun at over-the-top public apologies.
• Sex education getting playfully explicit as Camille gently guides Van and Rachel through shame, pleasure, and the nuances of porn consumption.

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Timestamps by Segment

• 00:47 – Rachel’s 40th birthday reflections
• 04:59 – Pope Francis’s passing & possible Black Pope
• 11:45 – Quick Hitters (news round-up)
• 16:58 – “Sinners” box office and media narratives
• 30:54 – Shannon Sharpe lawsuit & lawyer discourse
• 49:41 – Glaze of the Week (Rob Smith/race apology)
• 70:20 – Colorado football jersey retirement debate
• 78:16 – Guest: Quincy Avery interview segment
• 105:14 – Van’s football demo with Quincy
• 116:58 – Guest: Sex therapist Camille Lewis, deep dive on sex, shame, and sexuality

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Conclusion

This episode delivered the trademark “Higher Learning” blend of insight, wit, and honesty—from celebrating personal milestones and analyzing cultural narratives, to providing thought-provoking (and unvarnished) perspectives on leadership, race, and sexuality.
Whether tackling Hollywood bias, Black masculinity, sex and shame, or the economics changing college sports, Van, Rachel, and their guests keep truth at the center, inviting listeners to rethink widely accepted narratives and approach taboo topics openly.

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This summary omits ads, intros, outros, and focuses squarely on the episode’s conversations, arguments, and memorable moments.

Transcript

[Van Lathan]

This episode of Higher Learning is brought to you by mgm. If you love high stakes drama, Godfather of Harlem delivers.

[Rachel Lindley]

I can't wait to see it. I know it has Academy Award winner Forest Whitaker. He returns as Bumpy Johnson, facing his deadliest battles yet for Harlem's future. When ruthless newcomer Frank Lucas arrives, everything.

[Van Lathan]

Changes as power shifts and new threats emerge. Will Bumpy forge an uneasy alliance with his enemies? Or will he stand tall as the undisputed Godfather of Harlem?

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, you can find out in the new season of Godfather of Harlem, new episodes streaming Sundays on mgm.

[Van Lathan]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought Warriors. What is up? Higher learning zone?

[Rachel Lindley]

It's Ivan Lacey Jr. And it's me, Rachel Lindley.

[Van Lathan]

It's Rachel's goddamn birthday, motherfucker.

[Rachel Lindley]

My birthday.

[Van Lathan]

Donnie. It's Rachel's birthday.

[Rachel Lindley]

Working on my birthday. Dedicated to the podcast, dedicated to the Thought Warriors. I think a lot of people adopt that mentality. You don't work on your birthday. You know, you want to sleep in, you want to relax. You just want to enjoy your day. And I'm enjoying it with the Thought warriors and you too.

[Van Lathan]

I worked on my birthday last week.

[Rachel Lindley]

But we will be drinking.

[Van Lathan]

We will be definitely having a drink. We have a sex therapist on the pod today. A lot of people say it was long overdue.

[Rachel Lindley]

That's my gift to you. That's my birthday present to you.

[Van Lathan]

Camille Lewis.

[Rachel Lindley]

Jamil Nader.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Got some stuff to talk about. We're gonna talk about ethical pornography, whether or not porn addiction exists. This is all for me. We're gonna talk about some things we've said in the past. We're gonna talk about our relationships with sex, the black community's relationship with sex.

[Rachel Lindley]

How to talk about sex with your partner, how to talk about sex. This is a judgment free zone. I love that we're doing this. On the Listen movie.

[Van Lathan]

Don't judge.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yes. The Listen movie. Don't judge.

[Van Lathan]

Rachel's birthday today. Rachel.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Big four zero.

[Rachel Lindley]

Big four zero.

[Van Lathan]

You've learned so many life lessons, man. You've been through so many things. How are you feeling today?

[Rachel Lindley]

You know, it's. I. I woke up this morning and I reflect and shout out to my friend Wayne, who also gave me this sash that says backwoods Barbie. I don't know if it necessarily applies, but I told him that I would wear it. He asked me every year, like, what did you learn from your last birthday? And what do you want moving forward? And I'm not sure that where I am with all that, like, how I want to answer that, but I do Wake up. And I always reflect on my birthday and I thought to myself, I thought, wow, 40. It's like an age you think about when you're younger. Like, oh, when I'm 40, this is going to happen. Or I'll look like this, or I'll have this. I'll be this when I'm 40. I don't know why that age, at least for our generation, because, remember, it was like, over the hill at 40. And I'm not where I thought I would be, but I feel like I'm exactly where I want to be. That's how I woke up this morning. And it feels good, you know, 40 and free. Yeah, that's the. That's the motto right now, the mantra.

[Van Lathan]

That's well said. I have something else to say. If it's your birthday, it means it's somebody else's birthday, too.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, that's right.

[Van Lathan]

The mouse puppy. Kalika Abrams. It's her birthday as well.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yes, it is.

[Van Lathan]

Love you, mouse. Happy birthday.

[Rachel Lindley]

Happy birthday, Kalika.

[Van Lathan]

Ooh.

[Rachel Lindley]

Perfectly timed.

[Van Lathan]

That was. Is that. Is that.

[Rachel Lindley]

She's a pro.

[Van Lathan]

Is that. Is that champagne? Is that chilled or is it warm?

[Rachel Lindley]

It's warm, but we will drink it anyway.

[Van Lathan]

It's amazing.

[Rachel Lindley]

It's cold when it goes in your mouth. That's what I always tell people.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, Jesus Christ. Oh, Danny.

[Rachel Lindley]

Sex therapists need em more than ever. This is why. This is why we're doing this.

[Van Lathan]

Iceman or something like that. How could that be? What the hell is going on? This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. Who says you can't be the topic of conversation for all the right reasons. The Hyundai Tucson hybrid pairs bold presence with advanced technology and sleek style. It's everything you didn't know you needed in an SUV and then some. Okay, Hyundai. Visit Hyundai USA.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by Universal Pictures. Would you sell your soul for greatness? What would you be willing to sacrifice? Find out on September 19th in the new Jordan Peele produced horror film, Him Only in theaters. Starring Marlon Wayans as the greatest football player of all time and Tariq Withers as his up and coming protege. Directed by Justin Tipping and produced by Monkey Paw Productions, Never Meet yout Idols. Him hits theaters September 19th. We got to start off the podcast with some bad news. J.D. vance killed the Pope. J.D. vance assassinated the Pope.

[Rachel Lindley]

That's how you're gonna start it off?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, some stuff.

[Rachel Lindley]

Can we honor this man? He hadn't been dead for more than 24 hours.

[Van Lathan]

Pope Francis has died. Guys, the Vatican announced on Monday he had a number of health issues, had battled these health issues over the years, and died a month after he was treated for double pneumonia. History is the first pope from the Americas, the first Jesuit pope, the first Pope since the 8th century not to be from Europe. He was known for voicing views that sometimes clashed with those of the Catholic church. Like in 2020 when he supported same sex civil unions. He was seen as a more progressive pope. 88 years young, he has passed away. And I have to say that this comes after JD Vance went and saw the Pope and look, you know, if you ask me, you see that type of evil and maybe you figure out this plane isn't for me. He got on out of here.

[Rachel Lindley]

He said he had enough.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. A new nickname for J.D. vance just dropped.

[Rachel Lindley]

What is it?

[Van Lathan]

Lucifer.

[Rachel Lindley]

It is eerie to see him post pictures. I mean, post pictures of sitting with the Pope Francis right in front of him. And then the next thing you see is that. I almost thought it was a joke.

[Quincy Avery]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindley]

I was like, did he really go? I thought not a joke that he had passed away. I thought it was a joke that he had just visited him. I thought, are people recirculating an old picture? You know, did this happen a week ago? But no, I mean, he was just there, which. It's eerie. It's eerie nonetheless. But obviously the Pope. Pope means. The Pope means a lot to a lot of people, especially because to your point, he was seen as more progressive than other popes. He had an Instagram following. He famously said, who I to judge, which was very controversial in the Catholic Church. More so aligned with the message of Jesus Christ. Obviously he. I'm not. I don't agree with everything that he represents, you know, you know, he's anti abortion. He's, you know, said women should were being selfish by having pets over children. You know, there's certain things, but he was more progressive than most, which is a step in the right direction.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindley]

Now put humanity first. You can't take away how he lived his life and how he put humanity over everything. Was more outspoken than we've seen with other popes of the past.

[Van Lathan]

Now the movie Conclave will take place in real life and they will choose a new pope, one of which is Eblik. Donnie, will you look this up? One of the guys that they're looking at. I only got a chance to read a little bit of it. It's just happened. He's a blick. He's a blick. He could be the Pope. He could be a Blick.

[Rachel Lindley]

What's his name?

[Van Lathan]

Forgot Donnie. Look it up.

[Donnie]

We got a couple options. There's Peter Turkson, who's 76 and from Ghana. And then the second one would be Robert Sarah, who's 79 and from Guinea.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, two Blicks. Is he. The other one is a Blick as well.

[Donnie]

Two Africans? Yes, Blicks.

[Van Lathan]

Well, just cause you're African doesn't mean that you're Blick.

[Donnie]

All right, Twitter.

[Van Lathan]

Is the guy from Guinea. Blick.

[Rachel Lindley]

He's black. I'm looking at him.

[Van Lathan]

They're both black. Let me show you.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yes, Robert Sarah.

[Van Lathan]

So that's Robert Sarah. And the other guy is.

[Rachel Lindley]

But he's 79 now. Pope Francis.

[Donnie]

They're all old.

[Rachel Lindley]

Pope Francis was 76 when he became Pope. When he became pope. Which the first black man. Blick. Blick. I don't do it well.

[Van Lathan]

Blick.

[Rachel Lindley]

Blick. The blick man you mentioned. I knew where it was from. First man you mentioned. He's 76. Robert Sarah, 79.

[Van Lathan]

Why don't they go young?

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, they could go. They could go younger. Because I remember when Pope Francis was chosen 2013, everyone was like, 76, he's old.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, why don't they get like a. I don't know, get like a 29 year old pope?

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, I think it's basically make Jamal Bryant the Pope.

[Van Lathan]

Whoa, Jamal Bryant the Pope? I gotta know you guys.

[Rachel Lindley]

Jamal Bryant, he's not of the same.

[Van Lathan]

That's fine.

[Rachel Lindley]

Religion.

[Van Lathan]

Like change it though. Like let Jamal Bryant be the Pope.

[Rachel Lindley]

Why him?

[Van Lathan]

First of all, I fuck with Jamal Bryant as much as I do. These are my. These are my passes that I like. Okay? I like Jamal Bryant. I like Toure. All right? I like Carl Lentz. You guys know this. But Jamal Bryant right now is probably. He probably got the most heat behind him.

[Rachel Lindley]

It's interesting. I don't know. Torre doesn't have these allegations, but two out of your three has issues with women.

[Van Lathan]

Pastor Holy whore.

[Rachel Lindley]

Never forget.

[Van Lathan]

But look, let me tell you something though. I'm looking at. This is the way we look at things. And I'm glad we're having Camille on later. I'm looking at guys who have overcome. Maybe they've overcome.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, yeah, we're all sinners.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. I've looked at guys that have overcome and are still doing amazing inspirational work for people. Jamal Bryant, Carl Lentz. Carl Lentz is so healed and so transformed that I cannot help but be proud of Pastor Carl.

[Rachel Lindley]

You still talk to him?

[Van Lathan]

I haven't talked to him in a while.

[Rachel Lindley]

We should have him on the podcast.

[Van Lathan]

I haven't talked to him in a while, but the things that he's doing, the way he's put his life back together and the fact that it was his faith that got that to me. That to me is faith in action. Faith when you're perfect and grace when you're perfect, that's all well and good, but when your life and who you are has been fractured.

[Rachel Lindley]

I agree.

[Van Lathan]

And your faith gets you through it.

[Rachel Lindley]

I agree.

[Van Lathan]

That, to me, is God in action.

[Rachel Lindley]

I feel like. And, you know, we talked about Carl Lantz in the past in this podcast, and we disagree. I believe in being accountable. I don't believe in being shunned. And that's what happened to him.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. But having said all that, I think the next pope should be Jamal Bryant. Well, I think the next pope.

[Rachel Lindley]

I would. You know what? I don't want him to be the next pope, but I'm happy to have him in consideration. So then we can get the Monique clips going around of her pulling out the binder and talking about having a tabbed, colorful list of his transgressions. I'm for that going around again because that was a time, that was a moment.

[Van Lathan]

So just. So we. So then we are in. In agreement. Higher Learning officially endorses for pope.

[Rachel Lindley]

No, we're in agreement.

[Van Lathan]

Higher Learning officially endorses Jamal Bryant for pope.

[Rachel Lindley]

Like many things on this podcast, we are not in agreement, but I'm happy for him to be considered. Okay.

[Van Lathan]

A couple of quick hitters, Donnie. These are quick. These are quick.

[Rachel Lindley]

This is something new we're going to do.

[Van Lathan]

We're new. It's a couple of stories you should be following. Quick hitters, Donnie. Quick.

[Donnie]

Real fast. Pete Hagseth is back on signal. He included his wife, brother, and personal lawyer on plans for a strike on Yemen on March 15th. Second quick hitter. Kanye west tweeted this song is called Cousins with a link to a new song in which he talks about how he looked at porn with his cousin as a teenager. And he says that he sucked his cousin's dick until he was 14. And the song, the chorus is, I gave my cousin.

[Rachel Lindley]

I gave my cousin.

[Donnie]

Quick hitter.

[Rachel Lindley]

Donnie.

[Van Lathan]

Donnie, we can't play the audio.

[Donnie]

So I did my best for copyright purposes.

[Rachel Lindley]

Donnie, why can't we play the audio?

[Donnie]

Copyright. We don't want to get sued by Yeezy.

[Rachel Lindley]

I think it's important, Van, that you say why you're laughing so people don't think that you're laughing for the wrong reasons.

[Van Lathan]

I'm trying not to. It's bad. I'm bad. I'm a bad person.

[Rachel Lindley]

For those of you listening and not watching, Van is.

[Van Lathan]

I'm a bad person.

[Rachel Lindley]

Covering up his face with his cowboy hat.

[Van Lathan]

I'm a bad. I'm bad.

[Rachel Lindley]

His eyes are watering.

[Van Lathan]

I'm a bad person. I tried. Donnie, you shouldn't have sang the verse.

[Rachel Lindley]

He shouldn't have.

[Van Lathan]

Because it was so.

[Rachel Lindley]

Donnie.

[Van Lathan]

Well, not until.

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm not even confident that it would have been a copyright issue. I just think Donnie just wanted to do that.

[Donnie]

Take that back.

[Van Lathan]

Not true. Okay, this is. First of all. Okay, first of all, we're not going to. Until we know more, we're not going.

[Rachel Lindley]

To talk about it.

[Van Lathan]

We won't discuss it. Because. Not trying to laugh at anybody. Donnie.

[Donnie]

Quick Hits, Quick hitter.

[Van Lathan]

The chorus of the song is just mad hysterical.

[Rachel Lindley]

I didn't listen to it.

[Van Lathan]

It's just. It is so.

[Rachel Lindley]

That was my first time hearing it.

[Van Lathan]

But we should talk about it because we should talk about it on Thursday, once we have more.

[Rachel Lindley]

If more comes out.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, if more comes out.

[Rachel Lindley]

Because we're not gonna. Come on now. Gosh. Sex therapist is right on time today. Come on.

[Van Lathan]

If more comes out.

[Rachel Lindley]

Cause it should be noted, we probably won't hear from the individual he's referencing because he is in prison.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Rachel Lindley]

For murder. So I don't know that we'll get much more from this. But this is. Can I just say this? Most of the time, it seems like Kanye west is spewing out things about other people. It is interesting that this time this is something that is personal about him. I just wanna make that observation.

[Van Lathan]

We should say this as well. In all seriousness, YG did a song some time ago.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Where he talked about a relationship that he had that was very inappropriate when he was a young man. That probably changed his perception and his relationship to sex. This song that Kanye west has out, it's kind of sparse. We don't really know the age of the cousin. We don't know if these are two young boys exploring or if this is a situation where Kanye west was taken advantage of. Um, it doesn't. It doesn't.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, it does say when he was 6, they acted out what they saw.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, so Kanye was six and the cousin.

[Rachel Lindley]

When the cousin was six, they acted out what they saw.

[Van Lathan]

The cousin was six years old and Kanye west was. Kanye says this went on Till he was 14.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, yeah. So they were minors, it seems like.

[Van Lathan]

Right. Okay, so what I'm saying is. What? Whatever. There's so much we don't know. It's just. I'm sorry. The chorus of the song is, like, mad hysterical, like, if you listen to it. And I think that Kanye knows that, by the way. I don't know how much of this is a troll job. How much of this is accurate. How much of this is Kanye west looking for attention, trying to shock us. Cause this is kind of the last frontier, right?

[Rachel Lindley]

Maybe just being. Putting something out there, like, maybe.

[Van Lathan]

So who knows?

[Rachel Lindley]

Maybe he's, like, getting things off his chest that he's been going through or fighting through. I don't. We don't know.

[Van Lathan]

And the saddest part about that notion is that he has done so much. That seems like it's just to shock you. That seems like it's just to garner a headline. That in a moment where he might actually be truly being vulnerable and truly talking about something that's worth discussing, people might look at him as the boy who cried wolf.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, that's why I think. Or the boy who cried head to make the distinction that most of the times he is never. Not never, but he's not talking about himself.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindley]

And that's where this is like, whoa. Well, this is different. Shocking, jarring, what he's saying, but it's about him. It involves. Well, it involves the. Obviously his cousin, but you get what I'm saying. So that's why I thought, whoa, this seems different.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Donnie, that wasn't really a quick hitter. That was a medium hitter. But, Donnie, get us into the first topic.

[Donnie]

Centers. Everybody's been talking about it. It topped the domestic box office this weekend with an estimated $48 million. But a lot of the headlines that have been coming out about it have kind of been iffy. A recent deep dive from Vulture was reported that Coogler wanted ownership of the film to revert to him after 25 years, which he got from Warner Brothers. Now, this isn't a thing that hasn't happened before. Mel Gibson owns the rights to Passing of the Christ, for instance, and Quentin Tarantino will get ownership of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood in a couple of decades. It seems like this deal has executives thinking that it's very dangerous for Hollywood and it could be the end of the studio system.

[Van Lathan]

Rachel, are you buying a ticket to Centers right now?

[Rachel Lindley]

So I. I did see Centers, but it's my birthday today, and having watched it, which, you know, if you guys listen to Friday's podcast, you know, I hadn't seen it. I've seen it since. I loved it so much. I spent hours more than I normally do. It's a thing with me and Willie when we see a movie we. Cause he's more into the YouTube world than I am. I'm trying to get better with that. We always watch explainers on TikTok and YouTube and like he's got me into that. So now that I've seen the explainers, I really want to go see it again. Now I need to watch it through a different lens. So yes, I am looking it up. I did not see it on IMAX because I really wanted to see it on Friday and it was only available at the front. And you know, if you listen to our wonderful interview with Omar, he said second back half is how you need to see it. So I'm trying to see. Maybe if I could see it today. Cause I want to sit on my birthday.

[Van Lathan]

Seriously.

[Rachel Lindley]

But as you can see, which is a good thing, it's sold out pretty much everywhere.

[Van Lathan]

So sender's $48 million. It's an R rated horror movie that opened on Easter, has a reported $90 million Easter weekend, should I say a reportedly $90 million budget. It is not uncommon to talk about what a break even number for a movie is. It's normally done with more of the Marvel stuff though, because those films are judged almost as financial pieces. They're almost looked at as like investments as part of a greater portfolio. And that portfolio being the mcu. So every time an MCU movie comes out, you're litigating the worth of the MCU by that project. See what I'm saying? So it's like if Captain America comes out or any other movie comes out and the box office is not super high on it, you say, okay, well maybe the overall project of the MCU is depreciating. Maybe it's losing its value. However, In I guess 19 or whatever it was when Captain Marvel came out, a movie that was pretty good, not bad. It made a billion dollars and you're thinking it made a billion dollars and you're thinking the MCU is at an all time high. The value of the MCU is through the roof. So the reason why we talk about, okay, how much does this movie have to make for profitability? How much does this movie is normally when we're talking about endeavors, Star wars, mcu, stuff like that, when we talk about budgets, because it's a fandom stuff, it's interesting to see so many of the trades talk about the profitability of sinners. Sinners is going to be profitable. But on a weekend When Sinners was the number one movie at the box office. And it wasn't just the number one movie at the box office. It won culturally, it won with the critics. It's interesting to see so many of the trades and so many of the talking heads go, ah, ah, ah. Not quite yet. It was interesting to me.

[Rachel Lindley]

So this is obviously taps into your expertise more than mine, but what is it that makes it so interesting? Um, is it because of who's behind the movie? Is it because of certain things that, you know, he asked that typical directors don't ask. Is it because it's a horror movie? Like, can you talk a little bit about. Like, why? Because I'm, you know, I can read the articles, but I'm not. Is it a cinephile?

[Van Lathan]

Yes, cinephile.

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm not as well versed. Which, by the way, Big Picture popped up on my YouTube and I saw you do a little. I watched it. I was watching it and I was like, he's gonna say that I don't watch movies. It's coming. It's coming. You were doing Sinners. It came, Which I would. Mallory and Sean should come on the podcast for sure.

[Van Lathan]

Mallory doesn't do Big Picture. Oh, that's Amanda Dobbins.

[Rachel Lindley]

Take that out.

[Van Lathan]

No, leave that in the podcast. No way. Leave, like, leave that. Leave that. No.

[Donnie]

Damn.

[Van Lathan]

Leave that in the pot. See what I'm talking about? This is the type of shit I'm talking about. Leave that in the podcast.

[Rachel Lindley]

No, no, no, I've been drinking. No, I've been drinking.

[Van Lathan]

Leaving the pot. Because see how you were trying to get at me? Even know what the fuck you was talking about. Leave that. Leave that in the podcast.

[Rachel Lindley]

It's my birthday. I get a pass. Okay, but my point is they're more than welcome to come on the podcast. Amanda and Sean. Anyways, you explain why is it interesting to you? Because not everybody, Maybe not everybody's as bad as me when it comes to movies, but they're not as well versed. No, no, no. They're not as well versed as you. Why is it so interesting that this movie is garnering. Garnering so much attention to where the headlines are reading in this way?

[Van Lathan]

Okay. One reason is because the economics of the movie were not a talking point until. Until the deal that Coogler negotiated was made public.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay, and is that normal for that to be made public? Cause why wait? Obviously he made that deal when he started doing the movies. Why is this public now?

[Van Lathan]

Well, it's gonna become a part of the story. Of the film.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay?

[Van Lathan]

So that's not uncommon. And it's unusual. And when a movie has so much interest, they're gonna look for most anything that they can report about it. So that's one thing. Secondly. Well, that's honestly the only thing, and I'll tell you why. What it seems like is that some of the trades are doing the work of the town. Now, when Quentin Tarantino made the deal that he made for Once Upon a Time, you heard about it and it came and went. Great movie. Won Brad Pitt an Oscar, made a lot of money. Good movie. Good movie, I'd say. All right. But it came and went. This one, you started to get articles that were like, does Ryan Coogler's deal for sinners threaten the future of the studio system? Amanda Dobbins. Yeah. Mallory Rubin. Okay. Does it threaten the future of the studio system? Right.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

And that's a very interesting take on that. First of all, not every filmmaker is going to be able to negotiate this. Ryan Coogler's track record in his first four movies is Spielbergian, really. When you think about the success of those movies and the billions that they've made, two of them being Marvel movies, one being Creed, the other one being a really lauded, critical movie. So not everyone's gonna even have the juice to do that. So it's not gonna threaten the studio system in that regard. Number two, the studios just aren't gonna do it, and they're not gonna do it for most people. And so most people are not gonna get the opportunity to experience that. They're not gonna do it. And movies will still be made, and people are still gonna wanna make studio movies. People are still gonna. It's kind of like the 360 deal. Like, everyone thought that the 360 deal would change music, as in, the artists would not, like, succumb to the 360 deal. If you guys don't know what a 360 deal is, it used to be that record companies could make so much money on artists just by essentially getting royalties off of their music and stuff. But then when streaming came in, that wasn't the case anymore. Streaming meant that you made less money off the actual movie. So the 360 deal was, I'm gonna take a little bit of your music to recoup, but then a little bit of your touring, a little bit of your merchant, a little bit of your this, a little bit of that. So 360, it's the full artist deal. That's a very crude way to explain that. People Thought, oh, it's gotta change music. The artists aren't gonna go for it. No, they're gonna still wanna be signed to majors. They are going to accept what the majors are offering until enough of them have leveraged enough influence where they don't have to. Which is why the concept of title was so important, but they couldn't get it done because certain artists. Hell out. Different conversation. The studio system is going to survive Sinners because you still want to make movies with Warner Brothers, you still want to make movies with Fox, you still want to make movies with Disney. They have resources and a distribution mechanism that is going to be premium to what filmmakers want. So number one, that was a little weird when that narrative was put out there. And then number two, when you saw Sinners be legitimately a $50 million domestic opening for an R rated horror movie on Easter weekend.

[Rachel Lindley]

And then you saw Rooted in Blackness.

[Van Lathan]

Rooted in blackness with black people dancing and fucking and biting and eating vagina. Okay. And you see that as a 100% win, plus the critical acclaim. To watch the trades come back and kind of hate was odd. It was like they were doing the work for the town.

[Rachel Lindley]

Is it odd though? Is it odd because you just named all these things that this movie is, and on top of that, it is critically acclaimed. Like, it's like 98%, you know, because a lot of people said, and I think we talked about it on this podcast. When this movie comes out, will it live up to the hype so far? It has.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, for sure.

[Rachel Lindley]

Absolutely. Like, without a doubt. People who have seen it, I watched it, I was like, it absolutely does. To the point where I need more. Listen, guys, this is me talking. I want to see a movie again. I can count on one hand how many movies I've wanted to see again. Yeah, maybe a couple of fingers on that hand. Because the depth of it, the understanding of it, I know that I will get more the second time around watching it. That is a great movie. It leaves you wanting more to where I have to go back to it. So it lived up to it. So is it odd or is it just who is behind this movie and what it represents? Yeah, because you just gave the opinion, just as you just gave the example of Quentin Tarantino. To me, it makes sense for Ryan Coogler to ask for this for his track record. Also, he wrote, directed and produced this movie. It's not like he just came in on somebody else's project. It makes sense to ask for the things he did when he can guarantee you a success. He's, like, batting at. What do you call it? 300, 100. He's batting.

[Van Lathan]

He's batting a thousand.

[Donnie]

300 is good, though.

[Van Lathan]

300 is good.

[Rachel Lindley]

I know it's good. I did know that, but I felt like that wasn't the saying.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, he's batting a thousand.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay. He's batting a thousand.

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm a. Stop.

[Van Lathan]

This is terrible. Before we move off this, shout out to the homie, Ben Stiller. Who?

[Rachel Lindley]

What did he say?

[Van Lathan]

Who called out this headline on Twitter?

[Rachel Lindley]

Did he?

[Van Lathan]

Ben Stiller. Ben Stiller. What?

[Rachel Lindley]

Malai, I know you don't think they exist. Well, I fuck with Ben, but you don't think they exist. I'm just saying. A. Ally. Go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

Shout out to Ben Stiller. Who called this out on Twitter and was like, why would you guys frame the headline like this? Patrick Schwarzenegger did, too. Oh, Patrick. Oh, Patty Swartz saw my Coachella? You saw Patrick Schwartz? What'd you say? What'd you think?

[Rachel Lindley]

I didn't, but I was with Justin and he. Of course, everybody loves Justin.

[Van Lathan]

So Patrick, Patty Schwartz came over and said, what up to Justin Chicken n Knows everybody like that.

[Rachel Lindley]

Everybody.

[Van Lathan]

So did Patty Schwartz. Was he a big guy?

[Rachel Lindley]

Average height.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. So, like, Arnold Schwarzenegger is so big. Like a big dude. So Patty Schwartz, I always wonder whether or not he was going to be like, a big dude.

[Rachel Lindley]

Average.

[Van Lathan]

You know, the other boy, he looks just like Schwarzenegger.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Justin Bienna. The outside boy always looks just like the daddy.

[Rachel Lindley]

So there's no denying.

[Van Lathan]

You can't deny it. The outside boy, you might. The ones that's right in the household eating dinner together, they might. They might not. But that outside boy that always looks just like him, be around town looking at him like, hey, you know who that is?

[Quincy Avery]

Huh?

[Rachel Lindley]

Boy or girl? The girls be looking like the daddy, too. Yeah, you'd be like, hey, that's true.

[Van Lathan]

That's John's son. I'd be like, what? Like, yeah, it looks just like him. He's like, okay, it's my cousin. I'm gonna go say hello. Boy, don't you get out this call, your auntie will kill you. Poor thing. Come from very weird places. You guys just broke Donnie.

[Rachel Lindley]

What?

[Donnie]

Shannon Sharp is sued for a sexual assault and battery. This just came down this morning. Civil complaint was filed in Nevada. It alleges that Sharpe committed assault, sexual assault, battery and sexual battery, and that he engaged in the intentional infliction of emotional distress. The plaintiff claims that they had a rocky consensual relationship that lasted about two years and that he recorded their sexual activities without her permission or knowledge and was sharing it with others. It also alleges that he confronted the plaintiff in October after he accidentally live streamed having sex with a woman who was not the plaintiff and she attempted to separate from him. She alleges that forcible sex would happened against her consent and in another alleged incident that happened in January, so a few months ago, that Sharp had unprotected sex with the plaintiff despite her efforts to get him either to stop or to wear a condom. The complaint seeks a minimum of $50 million from Sharp and she is represented by Amica Nash or Micah Nash, I believe, and Tony Busby.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, now that I didn't see.

[Van Lathan]

Yep.

[Rachel Lindley]

The Buzz man, he's back at it.

[Van Lathan]

Buzz man's back.

[Rachel Lindley]

Can't stop him.

[Van Lathan]

Can't stop the Buzzy. Can't stop the bus. Rachel, don't let that. Don't let that champagne get. Get you to laughing at. You're supposed to be laughing at. Okay, so there's two things that's interesting to me about this. Number one, Shannon Sharp has just finished his deal with Colin Kyle Herd's the Volume.

[Rachel Lindley]

What?

[Van Lathan]

The Volume Sports. Volume Sports. Colin Kyle heard that's what Shannon Sharpe was with. So that deal is over. Shannon Sharpe is now a free agent. It was reported earlier that he was looking for a deal upwards of $100 million. This is last week that this was reported. Shannon Sharpe was looking for a $100 million deal.

[Rachel Lindley]

Wow.

[Van Lathan]

This week this comes out. Is there any corollary between those two things? And let me tell you why we are getting past litigating whether or not this happened or not. Because there's no fucking way for us to know. There's no way for us to know whether or not this happened or not.

[Rachel Lindley]

Correct.

[Van Lathan]

However, for this to come up now, after Shannon Sharpe, it was in all the trades that he was looking for a $100 million deal. Does that say anything to you?

[Rachel Lindley]

How can I answer that?

[Van Lathan]

Well, what I'm saying is this.

[Rachel Lindley]

What I'm saying is, did The Colin Coward Company own the YouTube? What is his show? What is Shannon's show called?

[Van Lathan]

Club Shay Shay.

[Rachel Lindley]

Club Shay Shay.

[Van Lathan]

Yes.

[Rachel Lindley]

Did he. Was he.

[Van Lathan]

Did it own that Colin Kyle Herd? Yes. The Volume. Colin Kyle Herd's company, Shannon Sharp was under them. Yes.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh. Um. How do I know? Well, so it's hard to say that.

[Van Lathan]

So I guess this is what I'm saying. One or two things happening to me. Either they got slapped with this Shannon and his people a week ago, two weeks ago, or whatever. And then they started talking about in the trades that we were looking for $100 million deal to soften the blow for when this was announced to the public, to say, hey, this is clearly a shakedown attempt from Tony Busby, who already has a terrible reputation based upon the dismissal in the Jay Z lawsuit, or Tony Busby and Micah Nash are fucking idiots. Because after a week of speculation, even if the speculation didn't mainstream itself about how much money Shannon Sharpe was going to make now that he's a free agent to drop this this week or to have this break this week, looks like a clear money grab from Tony Busby. And it actually diminishes whatever the facts of this case are with very poor timing. So, I don't know, in this particular situation, when you hear this and you look at this, you go, okay, people are talking about how rich and Sharpe is going to be. And then boom. And here comes the sexual assault case.

[Rachel Lindley]

I mean, Tony Busby has a track record that makes him look like he's what you would refer to as an ambulance chaser. Right? He goes. He follows the money. But also, his reputation has taken a huge blow because of what happened with the Diddy case. Case is.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, Diddy or Jay Z.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, Jay Z, but I've. But then also, like, he's not licensed in that district to practice. And so I feel like it wasn't just the Jay Z. I mean, it's the. It's the Diddy case. Jay Z, because, remember, was a part of it.

[Van Lathan]

You're right, you're right, you're right, you're right.

[Rachel Lindley]

So. But it. That wasn't the only case, I think, that was affected by it. So I just. It's hard to say. The only thing that does seem to be consistent is that Tony Busby goes after big people. I can't say what's true or what's not, but he goes after big people where there's a big money grab, which is what you would call an ambulance chaser. He follows the money, he follows the attention. You know, people might say that about other attorneys, too, that are popular, that we know. Like, if you know the name of an attorney, it's because they handle big clients and go after big cases that garner a lot of attention, and they like to talk to the media all the time. In this case, it's just so hard to say. I mean, I read it. You know, what was the phrase that Tarana used? Like, this is just an opportunity for them to do the research and to vet out whether or not this is true. But it's hard for me to have an opinion about it.

[Van Lathan]

If you are someone looking for justice that has been aggressed by someone in this way, is it smart to hire Tony's Busby at the time?

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay, so this is what I will say. When you file a lawsuit like this, the money is based off of. You don't pay the attorney as you go by hourly.

[Van Lathan]

Right? Okay.

[Rachel Lindley]

The money is based off of what you make. So sometimes what you win what you win? Yes. Sorry. So sometimes these smaller attorneys have to partner with a bigger person because they can't afford the cost to prepare for the case. That happens a lot.

[Van Lathan]

Good information. So you're saying that particularly like the Micah Nash guy, he goes to Tony Busby.

[Rachel Lindley]

He might like Tony Busby, obviously has track record, has made money, has had success, no matter what you feel about him. So he might need that kind of support either to garner attention. With a name like Tony Busby, good or bad, he gets attention. But also to be able to afford fighting this case, you have to pay court costs, you have to pay for research, you have to pay for your time. There's just so much that goes into it that if it's the defense, they bill you every month, they're charging you for every little thing that they do that doesn't happen in these cases.

[Van Lathan]

If you're Shannon Sharpe, I wonder, how do you respond to this?

[Rachel Lindley]

You don't. You let your attorneys.

[Van Lathan]

So you don't say nothing. Well, he talks so much.

[Rachel Lindley]

I was very critical about what Jay Z did. Remember Jay Z had the tweet, Jay Z put out the statement.

[Van Lathan]

Not the same thing, and I'll tell you why.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

In that case, Jay Z is being hyper communicative when we don't hear very much from him at all.

[Rachel Lindley]

Correct.

[Van Lathan]

We are inundated with Shannon Sharpe every day. We see him on First Take, then we see him on Club Shay Shay, then we see him on Nightcap. He is constantly and continuously in cultural conversation.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay. And to the point that you just named out of all those things, you name where he has a platform, it's Nightcap where he gets personal. Certainly espn Club Shay Shay, that's about other people, right? That's about him opining on other people's experiences. But Nightcap, he reveals personal information about himself, certainly. So, yes, to your point, that is different. And if he were to say anything, Nightcap would be the place to say.

[Van Lathan]

Nightcap would be the place to say it. But it doesn't seem like the audience that he's cultivated is going to allow him to stay silent on this. He's probably gonna have to say something.

[Rachel Lindley]

I don't think so. I think there's just a lot of excuse and deference given to celebrities and that people. People who are well liked. Shannon Sharpe is a person who is universally well liked.

[Van Lathan]

You think?

[Rachel Lindley]

Yes, it is. Why he could get away with doing what he did on Instagram and people saying it was promotional, people saying it wasn't an accident, people saying that he did it to refute rumors that are about him. Whatever reason it was, it came and it went very quickly and it was a big deal when it happened. That is because I think he is universally liked.

[Van Lathan]

I wonder if.

[Rachel Lindley]

And I think people are gonna be like, you know what? It's there, our antennas are up, but we're gonna wait for more information before they start accusing him of things or the alleged victim.

[Van Lathan]

I think the things that complicated are two are threefold. Well, actually, there's only one real thing that complicates it to two. One is how much we hear from Shannon Sharpe and how much we hear from Shannon Sharpe about everything, including the Instagram thing that happened. If you guys don't know what we're talking about. You know, Donnie mentioned it when he was giving his rundown. Shannon Sharp's interlude that was captured audio wise and a little video, but you couldn't see anything on Instagram. Number two, the first take of it. That's a Disney corporation.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

That is not family friendly, but that's as mainstream as it gets. And you wonder. This is. Nothing's been proven against Shannon Sharpe. This is an allegation. However, you wonder how comfortable they are with this hanging over his head and dragging out. As long as something like this would drag out and it not being a dress at all. You wonder how comfortable they are with that.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I wonder now if that Instagram thing has any effect on the way people look at Shannon and whether that is in people's minds at all as they consider whether or not something like this actually happened.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, but even if you. Okay, to the latter point, that what we heard on Instagram was clearly consensual.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindley]

So what is being accused in this lawsuit is not right. What is being accused of.

[Van Lathan]

So it shouldn't.

[Rachel Lindley]

And even they reference this, it's kind of built on that accidental thing happened while we had our thing off and on as well. So I don't think that people think about that and compare to this. At least I Don't. Because I'm like, that was clearly consensual. And whether it was an accident or purposeful, it was consensual. There's no question about that. Now when you hear this, it's just like, hmm, okay, for me, I'm like, I wanna hear more information come out about this. I want there to be a. I did not know the Tony Busby of it, but I want there to be a thorough investigation despite it.

[Van Lathan]

What about river now?

[Donnie]

Target CEO met with Reverend Al Sharpton, whose National Action Network has encouraged consumers to avoid US Retailers that are scaling back their DEI initiatives. Sharpton called the meeting with CEO Brian Cornell very constructive and candid. He also said, I'm going to inform our allies, including Reverend Dr. Jamal Bryant, of our discussion, what my feelings are, and we will go from there.

[Van Lathan]

So Reverend Al goes to meet with Target. It says it was constructive and candid.

[Rachel Lindley]

Gave us nothing. He gave us nothing. You know, he gave us nothing, man.

[Van Lathan]

Look, I always have to do the obligatory shout out. So shout out Reverend Sharpton, who has been doing this work for a very, very long time. Shout out Reverend Sharpton. I don't know why I get the feeling that these niggas be dicking us around, though. I mean, you know, he goes to talk to the Target people. He comes back and he says that he talked to Reverend Dr. Jamal Bryant about it, which is great. Jamal Bryant, he organized part of the boycott. But don't we all need to be in conversation about this to a deeper degree and a deeper level? The people that are being asked to, like, not go to Target, right? To not go to a place that's very convenient for them and stuff like that? Don't they need to have the information about how this is going, what the specific ask is? Now some of that stuff is on. They've talked about the Target fast and stuff like that. There's information out there for you. And then another part of this is just cosmetic.

[Rachel Lindley]

To me, that part.

[Van Lathan]

That's the part like, don't we need some new niggas? Like, hold on for a second. It's like, Reverend Al Sharpton, B. Been at this for a long time.

[Rachel Lindley]

Just really has.

[Van Lathan]

Having him go and sit down with the Target people and having a conversation on behalf of everyone. And it makes the whole thing look a little sleazy to me. And I'm not sure why.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, I mean, if not him, who? That's what I will say to combat what you said. You know, he also demanded, like, at least with PepsiCo, he was like, Demanded that they meet with him within three weeks of him. You know, he's got, it's not just him, he's got the whole national action network behind him. So I would say, if not for him, who now you know, to your point, Dr. Jamal Bryant, he did have the 40 day target boycott and he had the targetfast.org and you know, that's a younger person coming up. And no, he doesn't have the action network behind him, but he does have a church and people that follow him that could spread the word and promote what he's doing. The reason I said that part to me on the cosmetic thing is I don't need to know you had a conversation until there is actual work that is happening where things are changing or something's going to be done. That's what feels cosmetic. For me, for me to know that you're having this sit down and you're having this conversation feels performative. Tell me what came out of it. Tell me what is going to change. Otherwise it's fluff. That's what I don't like. To me you're giving yourself a pat on the back by saying, I demanded this, I organized this meeting and we're gonna sit down. The actual people don't give a fuck that you had at the meeting. What we care about is, is the change going to happen or not? And then we can move accordingly. I think in 2025 we are past the point of you saying, telling us what you're doing. We wanna see it and feel it. It's why the election went the way that it did. People need to feel it. So this to me falls on deaf ears.

[Van Lathan]

So These are the four demands of Jamal Bryant's TargetFast.org One, honor the $2 billion pledge to the black business community through products, services and black media buys.

[Rachel Lindley]

And was that made prior, after they decided to get away with the DEI initiative or before? Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Two, deposit $250 million amongst any of our 23 black banks. So they want an investment into Black banks. Three, completely restoring the franchise commitment to DEI. Four, pipeline community centers at 10 HBCUs to teach retail business at entry level.

[Rachel Lindley]

Nice.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so you have four clear cut demands. Now if I'm looking at these, I'm thinking no company is gonna do all four of these. Right? However, there's something above these demands that's very important to say. Power concedes nothing without a demand. So it doesn't make any sense to boycott blindly. Sure, there has to be some type of pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

So these are good things. What I would want to know from Reverend Al or whomever is going to do it is how much progress was made on any of these.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

What was the stance that they took? And when you say that it was.

[Rachel Lindley]

Productive, constructive and candid.

[Van Lathan]

Good, that's fine. Constructive and candid. Was that constructive and candid for you or was that constructive and candid for the boycotters? Also we should say there's a list of boycotts and boycotts here. These are the boycotts. Just so you guys know, places you should buy from. Ben and Jerry's, Costco, Coca Cola, Dunkin Donuts, JP Morgan. Boycott watch list. Here is Aldi, Amazon, American Airlines, bank of America, Best Buy, Boeing, Caterpillar, Dell Technology, Ford, God damn. General Motors, Goldman Sachs, Harley Davidson, IMDb, John Deere, Lowe's, Home Improvement, Lowe's, McDonald's, Meta. So we fucked this up. We on Instagram, Coors, Molson, Coors, Sam's Club, Starbucks, Target, Toyota Tractor Supply Company, Walmart, Walmart, Supercenter, Whole Foods, Whole Foods Market, Zappos. What the fuck is Zappos?

[Rachel Lindley]

Shoes.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, shoes. Okay, so those are all the companies that holding them accountable right there. So those are all the companies that they're looking at right now. I'm not sure. I don't know how successful this will be, but I do know that it's very important to indulge in it. It's also very important to know exactly what the companies are willing to do to address this.

[Rachel Lindley]

What I do know from some of the companies that you listed is that some companies have announced because I think one of the things I read about what Reverend Al Sharpton was having the conversation with is why they got rid of the DEI and is it politically based, which it obviously is. I mean, the timing you can't deny. But I do know that some of these companies got rid of the programs and restructured them to where some people don't lose their jobs, they rename them.

[Van Lathan]

Interesting. Do you know of any of those companies?

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, but I'm not going to. I like there's a reason that they did it the way that they did it. So I mean, and some of the reports have come out like they didn't. People didn't want to fire them, so they changed the title of the person. So there's. The person is still there. Or they say, oh, we're getting rid of our D I program, but we're just couching it under something different.

[Van Lathan]

Right. So.

[Rachel Lindley]

So that is happening. So something it's important to acknowledged because then it brings to focus. So it looks bad on the surface. Right. But the people aren't being impacted internally.

[Van Lathan]

Right. And some people, they. They did this to not draw the ire of the Trump administration.

[Rachel Lindley]

Correct.

[Van Lathan]

But at the same time, I don't know.

[Rachel Lindley]

I don't know if that's. I don't think that's target.

[Van Lathan]

Right. But some companies it is, but some on the list.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yes. Right.

[Van Lathan]

It's America's favorite segment now, Donnie. Glaze of the week. Glaze of the week. You're on somebody's meat. It's the glaze of the week. Glaze of the week. Glaze of the week. You sucking dick? On behalf of the black community, I would like to apologize to the parents of Austin Metcalfe for making a hero out of the young man that killed your son. I apologize that there are so few fathers around and so few male figures around to teach the black community about emotional discipline, about what's right from wrong, about emotional regulation, about not making a hero out of a thug and a criminal. I apologize on behalf of the black community because they are the ones that are raising money for your son's killer. They are the ones that are funding this new, lavish lifestyle that your son's killer is living. I apologize on behalf of the black community because they are so confused about, again, what's right and what's wrong, that in some weird, twisted sense of racial solidarity, they would celebrate the young man that killed your child in cold blood. I apologize on behalf of the black community because you don't deserve to see this.

[Rachel Lindley]

What should we say on behalf of the black community?

[Van Lathan]

I can't say anything on behalf of the black community. I do want to say this, though. I'm not sure. I can't say anything on behalf of the black community. I'm one guy. Okay. We have never seen dick riding like this before. I'm serious. This is the type of dick riding that makes you want to ask, yo, who is this nigga? Like, you ever been at a place somewhere where you see somebody on somebody else's dick? We were at Upscale in Baton Rouge. This is like 2002, maybe 2001. We're in upscale in Baton Rouge, maybe 2003, and there's a fight that happens. And one of the people that was involved in the fight was Rohan Davey. Do you remember who that is? It's a LSU quarterback. And one of the guys takes the mic and he goes up to the DJ booth and he says, hey, man, yo, why y' all Trying to get at Rohan like that. He just got his starting job. We should be celebrating and we all looking around like, oh, my God, who is this nigga? Who has the audacity to dick ride like this in front of such fine females? Who could you be to stoop to this level of dick riding? I don't know this nigga. I never heard of him before in my life. There are 90 million white men in America and, like over 100 million white women. He dick rolled and clit surfed every single white person in the entire. And then he did it on our behalf. I would like to say something else. I would like to say that there's a difference between being black and being a part of the black community.

[Rachel Lindley]

100%.

[Van Lathan]

Community is shared values, purpose, and understanding. Just because you're black doesn't mean you're a part of the black community.

[Rachel Lindley]

Exactly.

[Van Lathan]

It doesn't mean that at all. So I'm looking at this and I'm thinking to myself, what on God's green earth could have made this guy get up and juggle the balls of white people? Please, sir, may I have another? In this fashion, there's absolutely no pride. There's no understanding of blackness here. He's just a vacant void shell of cuck, and it's disgusting. I was disgusted. We've talked about glazing before. You know, we talked about the Bill Maher thing. Bill's. This is a power play for him. I'm not letting him off the hook. But it's a power play. He's trying to get closer. He's changing his. Whatever. This guy just got on his knees. This is a true glazing. This is not glazing. This is bukkake of the week. Do you know what bukkake is?

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Are you sure?

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

What is bukkake? I don't know if you know.

[Rachel Lindley]

I don't think I do.

[Van Lathan]

I don't think you. Look it up. Type it in your search engine right now. Type in buki.

[Donnie]

No, that's a work computer. Do it on your phone.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Do it on your.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, it's part of the podcast.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Type in bukaki right now. B U K K A, A K, E. Look it up.

[Rachel Lindley]

You know how to spell it?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Lindley]

But I definitely don't know what it is.

[Van Lathan]

Click it and then go to images.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, wow. I definitely didn't know.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what it is.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, my God. Thank God for Camille coming on.

[Van Lathan]

This guy got bukaked by the entire next week.

[Rachel Lindley]

They go See me with a different computer community.

[Van Lathan]

No, he let the whole white community bukkake him. This is disgusting, by the way. This is. When we talk about black technology, cultural technology. This is some. Whatever. I don't even go. I was legitimately taken aback by the gall of this nigga.

[Rachel Lindley]

But you know the history of Rob Smith. You know who he is. This is. First off, you said you can't speak on behalf of the black community. One thing I will say is we understand what community means specifically rooted in blackness. So on behalf of the black community, shut the fuck up. That's my apology rating. That's where it is. This isn't an apolo. Like, I don't know who he's representing other than Rob Smith. Like, start your own community. Start your own place. I don't even know. I know he identifies as a conservative, but what he has been given back from other conservatives was what he deemed as a hate crime. Remember, he was heckled. Oh, he was.

[Van Lathan]

Is this the same guy that went to the thing and they told this nigga what was up?

[Rachel Lindley]

He's a gay black conservative. They made racist and homophobic comments to him. He identifies as homeless. When it comes to a political party, they turn their backs on him. Yet here he is now saying, on behalf of the black community, this, this, and this. This man stands for nothing and he belongs nowhere other than in his own space.

[Van Lathan]

He can't stand. He's kneeling, getting the glaze.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, that's. Well, I guess that's.

[Van Lathan]

By the way, can I tell you somebody else who doesn't agree with Rob Smith's view categorization of this entire thing, his characterization, should I say, of this entire thing. Austin Metcalf's dad, Austin Metcalf's father chided a guy named Jake Lang who's running for U.S. senate in Florida and had a Protect White Americans protest in Frisco, Texas. This was a recording from that protest where Austin Metcalfe's dad called in and rebuked this guy.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

For making this entire thing about some sort of racial divide. Donnie, play that.

[Quincy Avery]

This country is wrong.

[Van Lathan]

Why can't you saying that and say with us? I have. Maybe you can. Would you be willing to stand by.

[Quincy Avery]

Me in a press conference or in.

[Van Lathan]

An individual interview and talk about this issue that is larger than Austin at this point? God rest the beautiful young man's soul. That would have been one of our strongest voices if he was still alive today. Are you done?

[Quincy Avery]

Yes, I am, sir. Okay, my turn to speak.

[Van Lathan]

You are part of fucking drama. I See, friend, you're trying to create more race divide than bridging the gap.

[Quincy Avery]

I do not condone anything you do.

[Van Lathan]

That's called white guilt. No, let it talk. You're creating more Austin Metcalfs with your weakness, sir. You are creating more Austin Metcalfe with your weakness. You are being weak. I gotta be honest with you about that, sir. You're being weak. Condemn your son's killer and the culture that I want to hear anymore. I want to hear more. The guy clearly says, stop using my son's picture. Stop using my son's death to further this.

[Rachel Lindley]

Right?

[Van Lathan]

And what does he get from the people that claim to care so much about white lives? He gets rebuked. So, look, there's gonna be more that's gonna come out about Austin Metcalf and Carmelo Anthony, and a lot of it's not going to be easy to hear. And a lot of it will trigger you along racial lines. Of course it will. Of course, Here at Higher Learning, we've pledged to react to the information and the evidence in this case as it's made available to us. Okay? However, Rob Smith. Jesus Christ.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, the guy in that video might have been a little bit worse because the guy.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, he was way worse.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, no, you didn't hear the black man. He goes, black man here. Your son's doing. You didn't see that?

[Van Lathan]

Oh, the guy was in the video was black.

[Rachel Lindley]

No, no, no. Jake Lange, who was talking about him, who first said, your son could have been one of our strongest voices, and then contradicts himself by saying, you're creating more Austin Metcalfe's. To the father who said, please stop using my son to profit off of. There was a black. Tall black man standing behind Jake Lang in the video who says, black man here. What you're doing is wrong.

[Van Lathan]

Where are they getting you guys from?

[Rachel Lindley]

Black man? Black man.

[Van Lathan]

What do you mean?

[Rachel Lindley]

What's going on with y'?

[Van Lathan]

All? See how this happens. See what I'm saying? See what I'm saying? This is the problem right here. The problem is we're on the same side. And now you're.

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm asking for perspective. That's obviously not you, but we've talked about this before. The hatred you have to have for yourself.

[Van Lathan]

So there's no black women that do that? Oh, no.

[Rachel Lindley]

There's Candace Owens. Owens. Candace Owens is the picture. She is on a pedestal for black women.

[Van Lathan]

So why make it a black man thing?

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, because the issue right now is black men. We're talking about Rob Smith.

[Van Lathan]

It's not black men.

[Rachel Lindley]

No, it's not just black men, but we're talking about Rob Smith, who was literally heckled by these people for being who he is. Black and gay, and still stands in it. There's a black man standing behind Jake Lang. Who says. Who says black men here. I agree with Jake Lang. Doesn't matter what your gender is. It's the self. The way some people hate who they see in the mirror. I wish this is a topic we would talk to Camille Lewis about. Maybe we'll bring somebody on about this. It is nothing but a self hatred, which is equally disgusting and sad that you look at yourself and you hate yourself to the point where you want to align with people who hate you as well, but you feel so much better attaching yourself to that person because you hate yourself.

[Van Lathan]

I don't want to make that into a black man thing, though.

[Rachel Lindley]

No, I just said it's women, too. Shout out to Candace Owens.

[Van Lathan]

Right? So look, there's only one thing that I saw from black guys that was worse than that. Tizzy put up on his TikTok this video of this guy. I don't know where they were. I don't know if any of you guys saw this. And he was like calling these black women the N word because these ladies apparently rebuffed him when he tried to grab one of them from behind, like, kind of dissed him.

[Rachel Lindley]

Who's Tizzy?

[Van Lathan]

Tizzy? Ent is like a guy who like, calls out racists and stuff, okay? And this guy's calling these black women the N word. Nigger, nigger, nigger. All right? The whole deal. And it's back. And you can see this guy. He's a hairdresser or he's from San Diego or something.

[Rachel Lindley]

And he's black.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Donnie, look this up. No, he's not black. He was like. Looked like he was Hispanic or something. He's calling him the N word. Donnie, look this up. I want to say this guy's name. And there are three black guys or at least two black guys watching this dude call these women the N word.

[Rachel Lindley]

Come on.

[Van Lathan]

And launch this racial attack. And they don't really do anything. I'm like, homies. My guys, can we at least get a Yo, chill talking to them like that? Like, if you're not going.

[Rachel Lindley]

That's wild.

[Van Lathan]

If you're not going to be Batman in that situation, can we at least get an A? Chill talking to her. Chill talking to them like that. Talk to them like, you guys got to intervene if you see a Black lady in trouble. Look, let me say something real quick. Very important to say, because I always have to say this, right? Because standing up for black women is just like a. It's a dangerous thing.

[Rachel Lindley]

Why?

[Van Lathan]

People don't like it.

[Rachel Lindley]

We do.

[Van Lathan]

People don't like it. People don't like. When you stand up for black women. When you stand up for black women, it irritates people.

[Rachel Lindley]

Why?

[Van Lathan]

I haven't worked that out.

[Rachel Lindley]

And when you say people who are. Because black women, we appreciate it.

[Van Lathan]

I know that you do.

[Rachel Lindley]

So who does it irritate? Black men?

[Van Lathan]

No, no, no, no white men. I'm just saying there's an overall irritation because let me tell you what I mean. So whenever you say, hey, don't treat black ladies like this or stand up for black ladies or get involved, people then litigate whether or not you're doing it, okay? Which is fair. Now I want to say this real quick so that everybody knows I or no black man that I know am the perfect white knight or black knight to say, leave black women alone. If you litigate my past, you are going to see inconsistencies. You're going to see failures. You're gonna see times where I've hurt black women. You're gonna see times where I've failed black women. You're gonna see times where I've been less than up to the task of being held to a standard that I want. But you'll see that in every single aspect of my life. You're going to see me saying, yo, protect black women. Where I've made black women cry. You're going to see me saying, hey, protect black women. To where I've been close to people who don't do the same. You're going to see all kinds of things that say, hey, you're a hypocrite. The question is this. If you have the power to self scout yourself and to be useful to the women in your community, the black women in your community, do you want to do it? If the conversation is about, hey, we don't want to see black women in a situation where there is a specific danger to them in America, when they carry babies, when they're in relationships, when they're on dates, when they go for job interviews, we don't want to see them in specific danger. So can we have a conversation as brothers, as people who have been formed, loved and protected by these women? Can we have a conversation about how we do better A and how society does better B or how society does better A and how we do better B. Can we have a conversation about that? A conversation that's not gonna be easy for us and a conversation that's not gonna be easy for society. Can we talk about it when we continuously get back? No, you're not good enough. No, you've done this, you've done that. I know you. I know you. I know you stepped out on your girl. I know you've done. I know this. You're not good enough. You're not good enough. When no one is good enough to have the conversation, do you know what it starts to feel like?

[Rachel Lindley]

What?

[Van Lathan]

That the conversation isn't good enough. It starts to feel like no one wants to have the conversation because they want black women to continue to be the emotional workhorses of America. They want them to continuously be in the same situation. And look, man, I could tell you right now, there's gonna be like a shit ton of people that's gonna be like, van fucked up in this. Point. Van fucked up in that. Point. Van fucked up in this. This is. Van. I know Van all of that. I'm gonna be honest with you 100%. I want to see black women safe, healthy and happy. And we gotta talk about it. If I'm not the right guy to bring the conversation, if. Then let's. Let's. Let's do this. Let's find the guy who can do it. Okay, let's do this. Because everybody gets torn apart. Let's find the guy who is okay for him to do it.

[Rachel Lindley]

Can I tell you this? It's not about finding the guy who's okay to do it. It's finding the people who are actually willing to listen and then receive it well and then act on it.

[Van Lathan]

I got you. But let's say it's not me. Cool? Let's. I want to. I want a nationwide search to. Maybe it should be Jason. I want a nationwide search to find a guy that it's okay for him to defend black women because everybody else, we ain't shit enough. So I'm going to. During this whole time, I'm going to be better. All right? But I want to. I want to. I'm tired of hearing this excuse.

[Rachel Lindley]

That's fine. Let's watch somebody who's up.

[Van Lathan]

Y' all should have stood up and said something for that fucking woman when that nigga was yelling at her. And I don't give a fuck. Y' all should have stood up and said something to that guy when he was fucking yelling at them women. Y' all should have said something.

[Rachel Lindley]

You gotta see this Clip.

[Van Lathan]

That's the bottom line. You should have said something. Ashley, this last comment is for you. They should have said something. All right, let's go, Donnie.

[Donnie]

All right, last topic. Colorado head coach Dion Sanders spoke Thursday about the recent announcement that the University of Colorado was going to retire the jersey numbers of Travis Hunter and his son, Shador Sanders. And it had people upset. This is what Coach prime had to say.

[Quincy Avery]

Same thing with Rashad Samoan.

[Van Lathan]

Right? How long did we wait?

[Quincy Avery]

I say we because I'm a the of part.

[Van Lathan]

How long did we wait? 23 years after his Heisman. After his what?

[Quincy Avery]

After his Heisman.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

How many years after his death?

[Camille Lewis]

One.

[Quincy Avery]

Less than one.

[Van Lathan]

So we gotta die to get recognized?

[Quincy Avery]

Ain't nobody got.

[Van Lathan]

Ain't nobody saying nothing in the church right now.

[Quincy Avery]

Everybody got something to say.

[Van Lathan]

Otherwise, Donnie cut it off. Prime got me. I'm with prime now. I'm a feel. I'm sorry.

[Rachel Lindley]

I thought this. This was almost your glaze of the week.

[Van Lathan]

It almost was.

[Rachel Lindley]

And what changed?

[Van Lathan]

Prime got me, man.

[Rachel Lindley]

Because he said, let the church say Amen?

[Van Lathan]

No, it's because I heard so many people talking about guys like Deion Figures, Rashaun Salaam, Cordell Stewart, all of those guys who should have had their jerseys retired in Colorado. And they should have. They should have had their jerseys retired before, if not the Heisman Trophy winner, but definitely before Shador Sanders. Right. Those guys were. You know, some of them are national champions, all of that. But the reality is they didn't.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay?

[Van Lathan]

And now the way I look at it, I'm like, well, shit, we can have a conversation about whether or not Shador Sanders had a career.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, that's. That's the conversation. That's the conversation. Nobody's questioning Travis Hunter. Nobody's questioning what he represented, what he. How different he was, what he accomplished in college, getting the highest honor, how he played both sides of the field, his work ethic. No one would question Travis Hunter. He did things that you've never seen a Colorado football player, college football player do, but also what you just haven't seen a collegiate player do, period. There's no question but the Shador of it all. Not saying he didn't have a great career at Colorado, not saying he didn't do things that we hadn't seen a Buff do. But you can't ignore the relation with Deon and Shador. And if Shador wasn't Dion's son, we wouldn't be here. And that's just the reality. Of course, it's subjective as to who gets their number retired. And I will say if you look at the list of NCAA players that have had their numbers retired, some did have them retired right after they finished. It was more common back in the day in the earlier years of collegiate football than it is now, but it's not uncommon. We just don't see it that often.

[Van Lathan]

So this is what I'll say about Shador when you look at it. So he's Johnny Unitis. Golden Arm Award, 2024. That award is for the best quarterback in the country. Big 12 offensive player of the year, 2024.

[Rachel Lindley]

Big 12 sucks.

[Van Lathan]

Jesus Christ. First team all big 12, 2024. So those are his accolades.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, we're not.

[Van Lathan]

We're done as a Colorado player. Yeah, I mean, he has more accolades. He has the. Wait, wait, wait a minute. Yeah, okay, so look, he has more accolades. He won the Jerry rice Award in 2021. That is the best offensive player in the SWAC or in Division 1 AA. No. Okay, so it's the most outstanding freshman player. Should I say? I think the Walter Payton Award is the other one. The most outstanding freshman player in division in the fcs. He also won the SWAC Offensive Player of the year, SWAC Freshman of the Year. The Deacon Jones Trophy. First team all swac. Second team all swac. If you look at his entire college career, obviously laudable as a Colorado player, his accolades are Big 12 Offensive Player of the Year, First Team All Big 12. John Unit's golden Arm Award. Whether or not you think that's enough to get your number retired is one thing. However, if you are going to retire the number. He also is. I'm looking at it right now. Nine plus four is 13. Seven plus four is 11. He's 13 and 11 as a starting quarterback at Colorado. So a lot of people would say that's not good enough. No, a lot of people would say that that's not.

[Rachel Lindley]

13 out of 11.

[Van Lathan]

13 and 11.

[Rachel Lindley]

Right above 50.

[Van Lathan]

Nigga, you drunk. Okay? Numbers don't.

[Donnie]

Rachel doesn't do numbers when she's drunk.

[Rachel Lindley]

I heard myself say it. Wait, wait. I heard myself say it. I was like, can't take it back.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, okay, fine, whatever. So he. And so look. But listening to it is like, would he. Would a quarterback with those numbers eventually have gotten their number retired? Probably. And if you're going to do it, Prime's saying, why wait until whatever he can't control. He actually changed my mind on it. And look, I've been a critic of Deion Sanders and some of the way that the media has handled Prime's coaching career with kid gloves. And some of the hype surrounding Colorado. Not a critic of him directly, but a critic of the program and what it means and all of that stuff. But when I see it now, it's, fuck it. They want to retire the number. Retire the number. Fuck it.

[Rachel Lindley]

This is what I will say. This isn't being a critic of Deion or anything with the program. There's no. The only reason he's doing this because it's his son. I'm sorry.

[Van Lathan]

It's true.

[Rachel Lindley]

And that's period. That's on anything. Period. That's it. I gotta go.

[Van Lathan]

We gotta go.

[Rachel Lindley]

But no, seriously. He's only doing this because it's his son. He's only doing it because it's his son. I have to do a whole other podcast after this. Let's go.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, okay. He did it for Travis Hunter as well, though.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, I already made the case for Travis.

[Van Lathan]

Travis Hunter has a trophy winner.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah. I'm not saying that Shador's not good. It's. You can't separate the fact that that's the sun and that's why he's doing it.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, true. Okay. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. Who says you can't be the topic of conversation for all the right reasons. The Hyundai Tucson hybrid pairs bold presence with advanced technology and sleek style. It's everything you didn't know you needed in an SUV and then some. Okay, Hyundai. Visit Hyundai USA.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Prime.

[Quincy Avery]

Delivery is fast.

[Van Lathan]

How fast are we talking?

[Quincy Avery]

We're talking a cooler for your snacks, a folding chair, a Bluetooth speaker, and.

[Van Lathan]

A six pack of your favorite seltzer delivered by tomorrow. Fast. Oh yeah. Extra napkins, last minute guac bowls, backup.

[Quincy Avery]

Phone chargers, even a replacement remote.

[Van Lathan]

Fast.

[Quincy Avery]

I feel like I've ordered all those things.

[Van Lathan]

We're talking everything you need for game day. Fast. Fast. Free delivery. It's on Prime. Yeah. Quincy, what up, brother?

[Rachel Lindley]

Quincy, this is Yalls first time meeting, right? Yeah, we never met before outside the DMs.

[Van Lathan]

I got the Jaylen Brown on the whole nine, bro.

[Rachel Lindley]

It's. It's unacceptable.

[Van Lathan]

I thought it was a little weird.

[Quincy Avery]

When I seen him in it.

[Van Lathan]

Quincy, what is up, my man? My brother, you got a lot going on right now. Trying to do it, huh? Tell us a little bit about your documentary, your life story. Tell us a little bit about is.

[Quincy Avery]

This real right now?

[Van Lathan]

We all get right in.

[Quincy Avery]

So the documentary that we did, the Quincy Havier effect is basically kind of my life story. Like how I got to where I am today. And that place is, I think being the best quarterback trainer in the world. But people a lot of times associate me with black quarterbacks. So I had to go through like a lot of things to get to this point. But that's a story essentially.

[Rachel Lindley]

How'd this come about? Like, how did you. Because not everybody gets a whole documentary on them, let alone on Hulu.

[Van Lathan]

Cause there are so many quarterback coaches.

[Quincy Avery]

There's.

[Van Lathan]

I mean there's a lot of quarterback coaches.

[Quincy Avery]

There's a lot of quarterback coaches. There's very few people who train like NFL level quarterbacks.

[Van Lathan]

Gotcha.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah. I only know one.

[Quincy Avery]

There's a few. I know you've probably seen a few. Cause you was trying to get right to throw the football.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, we gonna get it. We gonna talk about that. You see the football over there? We gonna talk about that.

[Quincy Avery]

Oh yeah, I'm gonna help you out.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, yeah, I reached out for your help. I responded like a long time ago. Like I think that it would be powerful for you guys to take a 45 year old man and show that if he can get the mechanics down, if he could become, why stick?

[Rachel Lindley]

Why?

[Van Lathan]

Okay, we're coming out 10% of this twice now. Why stick? X smoke X go X dig laser. You know what I mean? If I can get there, then anybody can get there.

[Quincy Avery]

I think we could get you in a reputable place where people are solid.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, I want to see how. Yeah, I want to see you throw. I want to see if you're a natural. We're going to get there. But how did this documentary come about? Because I was saying not everybody gets a documentary about him. And Van can attest to this because he pitches and he's in rooms and stuff all the time. It's not easy, I think.

[Quincy Avery]

Well, I got a really good manager who's like, his name's Z. He hit the pavement and was like just hitting people up. I got reached out to a few years ago by Tom Brady's production company about doing a doc and then that didn't go.

[Rachel Lindley]

Did you train Tom?

[Quincy Avery]

No, hell no. Tom's too old for me to be trained.

[Rachel Lindley]

That means you are like, damn, there we go.

[Van Lathan]

We got our answer. Damn, damn. Quincy.

[Quincy Avery]

I'm just talking about at his peak.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

But then I think that kind of got thwarted situation with desean happen. Made a lot of things I was doing like those things stop. And then we came back to it and then people started to hear My story, and I think that's what really attracted them to me is like a story of perseverance more than just like, he got it.

[Van Lathan]

So you were the quarterback coach or are the quarterback coach for Deshaun Watson?

[Quincy Avery]

Work with Deshaun? I work with Deshaun. A few others. A lot of others.

[Van Lathan]

So then you're saying that the coach. Very serious allegations against him affected your career?

[Quincy Avery]

Yeah, of course. I think people really tightly associate us. Like you've seen us together. It's like my little brother.

[Van Lathan]

Interesting. Interesting that you would say that even now, because a lot of people, their perspective of him has changed from him being, like, just to be honest with you, at some point, the most all American clean cut quarterback ever to now a lot of people look at Deshaun Watson as a sexual predator.

[Quincy Avery]

Yeah. And I think, like, when you hear my story and you watch the doc, you'll see, like, I've been abandoned. Like, I've been in situations where the people that I was relying on or counting on or needed some help from, they left me. And who would I be to do that to him? Like, I know you go through things. Like, I know we make mistakes. I'm going to hold you accountable to whatever level I know of or don't know of. But my job is to be there for you. And I'm a friend first, like, more so than a quarterback. And like, his story is difficult for me because I know how much he did to get there. I know how much he went through, and I know where he's at now. And I know how a lot of other people, like, look at him and see him. But I know the person, right? And the person I know is like a really good person.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so this is what I'm gonna do. Cause we're gonna move on from this and we're gonna continue to talk about your documentary. But I have to say this, all right? A lot of people are gonna listen to that, and they're gonna be triggered by this entire conversation if, in fact the allegations against Deshaun Watson are true. Right. You know him. I get it. Do you see the point in some people saying that? That would be. We all have people that have heard. And I get my ass kicked on this podcast all the time about.

[Rachel Lindley]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

So I'm not putting you on the hot seat, but it's up. So we're gonna talk about it. Do you see people saying that if in fact that we're gonna talk about dozens and dozens and dozens of allegations of Deshaun Watson exposing himself ejaculating on all that type of stuff. Do you see the point in some people saying maybe that's somebody you should distance yourself from?

[Quincy Avery]

I can understand any perspective somebody may have. Like, I get that.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

But you have brother. You got sisters.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, for sure.

[Quincy Avery]

If they did something, like, let's say you knew they did something fucked up.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

What would you do?

[Van Lathan]

It's a question I've asked myself about a lot of people.

[Quincy Avery]

I think that oftentimes people forget they're human, too. If he made these mistakes, let's just say he did. I'm still not gonna abandon him. It's my brother. You know what I'm saying? So I was 15 years old. My dad leaves me in a hotel room. Like, just leaves. I'm stuck there four days. Like, I got left. I'm not doing that to nobody else. It's not who I am.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

And I'm not. I'm not, like. I'm not saying what he did was cool.

[Van Lathan]

Like, fair enough. Just, you know, just broaching it here. Fair enough. I get it. I understand it. Look, I understand it deeper than I think a lot of people do. There have been people that I've had to. To leave behind. But once again, you know, I've told other people that there are some people that I've been too close to that have done things that are abhorrent, taking lives and all of that stuff. Although, you know that there's gonna be a lot that comes with that. And you're okay with that?

[Quincy Avery]

I gotta be.

[Van Lathan]

There you go.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah.

[Camille Lewis]

You probably.

[Rachel Lindley]

I mean, I get this all the time. Yeah. Like, Twitter every single day.

[Quincy Avery]

The things that I see.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

Are oftentimes about him.

[Van Lathan]

So let's get back to you, though. Let's get back to you.

[Rachel Lindley]

So you call, like, building off of what you were saying, just, like, as a friend and who you are as a person and what you've been through. You describe your. As a quarterback coach and a developer. How does that set you apart as a coach? Like, what is it that makes you different? Explain the developer part of it.

[Quincy Avery]

I think that the thing people know about me is that I care about them more than anything else. And I think that allows me to coach you hard because I care about you as a person. I know about these kids, family. I know about their girlfriends. I know about everything. And they can talk to me about these things. So I can coach you really, really hard. Because you know that I really care about you, like, as a person. So I think that's what that's what separates me as like, a develop. I feel like I helped develop young men. This is the most important position in the world. These people shape their high schools, they shape their college campuses. And when you're at the top level and you're an NFL quarterback, you shape your city. Like, the way C.J. stroud acts in Houston shapes that city. Right. So there's these. I get to work with the most influential people in the world.

[Van Lathan]

Let's get back to that or stay on that. What does it mean when you say you care about them? Because a lot of coaches are good at making it seem like that. Like, that's actually part of their ability to glamour people. But a lot of. I feel like the kids, the young men, the men don't know what it means to actually have somebody care about you. Why don't you talk a little bit about that?

[Quincy Avery]

So what I say when, like, I care about, I'm like, I'm gonna hold you accountable, right, for the things that you do. And I think that a lot of people don't do that when they get benefit from you. Like, there's no wins and losses for me.

[Van Lathan]

You play good.

[Quincy Avery]

You don't play good. I still care about your development, like how you're moving through life, like you're being a good person. Those are things that I care about. And I try and hold people to the standard of.

[Rachel Lindley]

You had some words about Shador Sanders, which I know. I was like, wow, Quincy. That's bold.

[Van Lathan]

Quincy. And this motherfucker. Like, I came in here to talk about this documentary y' all asking me about. Well, no, I get it. Like, these are things that I do.

[Rachel Lindley]

Quincy said Quincy, the reason it's also hard because I want people, which the documentary drops April 23rd on Hulu, and I want people to watch it. I don't want it to give away too much because I want them. I want. Obviously, they can tell that you care about people. You work hard. It's a story of resilience. And you're also not afraid to say what's on your mind, which we love on this podcast, which I'm sure they're going to get in the documentary as well. But this is actually relating to it. When you talk about your journey or you think about your journey and how resilient you had to be to get to the place where you are today. Do you get frustrated when you see somebody like a Shador or maybe other people who could be deemed as Nepo babies get opportunities without necessarily putting in the same work that you or Maybe some of the other quarterbacks you worked with have.

[Quincy Avery]

Nah, not for real. I think that Shador has worked really hard. So I'd never want anybody to think that. I don't think Shadore has worked hard, and I think he's probably one of the toughest people that we see. And as like a Nepo kid or somebody who we would deem software, he is not those things.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, he was getting his ass kicked, right?

[Quincy Avery]

He got his ass kicked over and over. And I think that people also criticize, like, his brashness or his confidence. I like that. I don't think he's done anything like, out of pocket. There's nothing that Shador's done where, like, you could look down on him or certainly, like, he's got a little arrogance. He's earned some of that right. He's won a lot of football games. He's changed two college programs. I just don't look at him as a football player in the way other people do.

[Rachel Lindley]

So what are the talk about that? See, I gave you a. I let you explain it.

[Van Lathan]

So you thought I was going, yeah, dunking on Shador.

[Quincy Avery]

I'm not.

[Rachel Lindley]

No, I hear that. So this is the thing.

[Van Lathan]

Let's just be honest. We are in an unprecedented era of second generation professional athletes. Okay? We're seeing it everywhere. We're seeing it in the NBA with Bronny, right? We're seeing it with Shador Sanders. Everybody is a junior. Some of these juniors, it be like niggas that I forgot that the N was around. You know what I'm saying? Be like, fucking. When the Grant boy was first popping up, it's like, oh, shit, that's his kid. It's Kenyon Martin's son. Oh, shit, that's Kenyon Martin Jr. And so it's interesting to see which ones of these guys have it and which ones of them don't, because it seems like any criticism of Shador is going to be a criticism of Prime. Right? And any criticism of prime then becomes a criticism of Shador. And there has to be some kind of space to just evaluate Shador Sanders as a quarterback. And I'll just ask you, even though you were shout out to Rosillo, you were great on the podcast. Why is shedeur to have a sixth round grade to you? Why?

[Quincy Avery]

That was probably a little hyperbole. I wouldn't say six round. Like, I look back, I watched the interview. I'm like, that was. I went a bit too far.

[Rachel Lindley]

Second day. Yeah, but second day, third day, anything after the first round.

[Quincy Avery]

So I'll just say, I don't think he's a quarterback. The talent wise, he'll be a first round quarterback.

[Van Lathan]

What is a. When you look at a potential qb, if you were going to look at somebody and be like, that guy's got it, what do you see?

[Quincy Avery]

I see someone who can first make every single throw on a football field. They can throw a football with energy and they can throw a football accurately. And when I say energy, I don't just mean throwing the ball far down the field because that's not arm strength. Like being able to throw a ball past somebody in a manner in which it gets there quicker than they can react. Or they can layer a ball, which means get a ball over, up and down over somebody so that somebody else can catch it. But they also have to be able to do things with their legs. Like they gotta be able to extend plays, run around, create something from nothing. That's what makes you a first round quarterback.

[Rachel Lindley]

Do you think you could get Shadore to first round if he was working with you?

[Quincy Avery]

No, I think that Shadore has a really good quarterback trainer. I used to work with him. I'm a fan of his and I think he has a really good guy. Darrell Colbert.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay. Do you ever look, I mean, you have worked with hundreds of different.

[Van Lathan]

Jalen Hurts, Justin Fields. Are these all the guys you worked with or these just guys in the documentary?

[Quincy Avery]

All the guys I've worked with. That's why they in the doc.

[Van Lathan]

Wow.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, they're all in the doc too. Oh, wow.

[Van Lathan]

Jalen Hurts, Justin fields, Jordan Love, C.J. stroud, Tony Dungy. I mean, you didn't work with Warren Moon, did you?

[Quincy Avery]

Did not work with Warren Moon.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, I love Warren Moon.

[Quincy Avery]

He's my favorite quarterback ever.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindley]

What was I gonna say? Oh, so you've worked with not just professional players, you've worked with high school, college. I feel like a lot of kids, especially parents who want to see their. I'm from Texas, so I feel like anybody who has a son or maybe even a daughter these days wants to see their kid play football. But specifically quarterback. Do you ever turn down someone and say, like, it's just not gonna work? Cause I mean, parents can throw whatever kind of money. It's a very, it's very lucrative to do what you do as well. Do you ever just look at someone and you're like, no, all the time. Okay. You really do.

[Quincy Avery]

All the time. It's not worth the money. I don't have enough time to be going to get whatever hourly amount I'm charging for training. So I tell kids that all the time. In fact, I have a quarterback right now who's playing college football, Division 1. When he was in eighth grade, I told his dad, like, yo, it's time to stop. He don't got it. So I was wrong there. And he's just like, nah, we're gonna figure it out.

[Rachel Lindley]

And he came back to you. Oh, wow.

[Quincy Avery]

But I'm super transparent with everybody. Like, if you fucked up, I'm gonna tell you. If you're not good enough, I'm gonna tell you. Who would I be to lie to you? Like, we can't. My thing is authenticity. My words and my actions gotta be congruent in whatever I do. So if I tell you, you know, I wanna be the best quarterback in the world, I gotta be willing to do whatever it takes to get there. If I tell you you're not good enough, I gotta stand on that. So I'm standing on whatever I say.

[Van Lathan]

It's a position that you have to overcome adversity. You have to be able to overcome adversity. You have to be willing to throw a pick, come back and still try to fit that ball in and make a winning play for your team, if that is what's called upon you. What about your story makes you able to impart that on young athletes?

[Quincy Avery]

Yeah. So adversity is. So I talked a little bit about that story. I took that out of the doc. I didn't think that was necessary, but I was homeless for a thousand nights.

[Van Lathan]

A thousand nights?

[Rachel Lindley]

Did you kick us out of the docks?

[Quincy Avery]

I took. No, no, not the thousand nights of homelessness. That's still in there. But the story about my dad, like, when he left me in the hotel, it just probably wasn't necessary. And me and my dad have a really good relationship. I didn't want him to feel any type of way, but I just decided I was gonna make some work. So when I got done with college, I didn't have a job. Drove to ucla, sat on the couch like, yo, I want a job. They're like, what the fuck is this nigga doing in here? And I did that for three days straight. And then finally he was like, what's up, man? Like, I want a job. He's like, I ain't gonna pay you. Cool. Did that for two years, unpaid, first year, unpaid, second year. I got $1,100 a month. So basically unpaid.

[Van Lathan]

Basically unpaid, yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

In LA.

[Van Lathan]

In LA, that's unpaid.

[Quincy Avery]

Exactly. And then I'm like, what's he had? Quarterbacks. You know what? I was heavy in the four Loco. And I would get one drink a night. So I get a. I would leave to the club.

[Van Lathan]

I would get a 4 loco and.

[Quincy Avery]

A french connection, no ice and a french connection 18.

[Van Lathan]

This said, this said. I was heavy into 4 local.

[Rachel Lindley]

Aren't they illegal now? Bruh, people was a bad dad.

[Van Lathan]

I was heavy into four local.

[Quincy Avery]

Like, look, if you was gonna get on. If you was gonna get on in la, you need to get out. So I made fake business cards from ucla, handled the doorman like, yo, I'll get you tickets, whatever. I was in the club.

[Rachel Lindley]

Wow. I love the hustle.

[Quincy Avery]

I'm gonna figure a way out no matter what it is. And then. But yeah, I got done at ucla, wanted to train quarterbacks, so I moved to Atlanta. I'm like, there's quarterbacks here. And I would just message kids all day.

[Van Lathan]

Wow.

[Quincy Avery]

No one responded for two years and you kept going. Exactly. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Like, I'm not gonna. If I want some, I'm get it. Like, simple as that.

[Rachel Lindley]

Did you play quarterback?

[Quincy Avery]

I played quarterback until my second year of college.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay. Okay. And then what?

[Quincy Avery]

Wasn't good? Nah, I wanted to play. I wanted to play. I didn't want to play. They told my black ass I was gonna play wide receiver.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

And I did pretty good at that.

[Van Lathan]

So what was the moment that turned for you? Where. Or that turned it for you? Should I say where? You went from an aspiring quarterback coach to a quarterback coach.

[Quincy Avery]

So I was reaching out to kids nonstop and no one was responding. And then I'm like, all right, I gotta figure out a new way. So I was like, all right, I'm gonna do a camp for the top kids in Georgia. But I didn't have any money to rent a field. It was kind of cold outside, so I had to get this spot at 5:30 in the morning. No one came. But one of the kids I reached out to was Josh Dobbs. Oh, he hit me up like, yo, I can't come, but can you train me? And it was up from there.

[Van Lathan]

Wow. Wow. Josh Dobbs went to Tennessee, right?

[Quincy Avery]

Went to Tennessee, Yeah. Got drafted by the Steelers.

[Van Lathan]

Got drafted by the Steelers.

[Quincy Avery]

He's with the Patriots now, right?

[Van Lathan]

No eyebrows.

[Quincy Avery]

My dog does not have eyebrows.

[Van Lathan]

Wait, that's not a diss.

[Quincy Avery]

No, no.

[Van Lathan]

I'm just saying.

[Rachel Lindley]

But I just. Why? But just why?

[Van Lathan]

That's how you, like, know him. That's how people. That's how you know him like he was. Look, I'm an SEC football fan.

[Rachel Lindley]

I don't know who he is too, but I wouldn't have said that.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, but there's no eyebrows. Josh. Josh.

[Quincy Avery]

No one else would.

[Van Lathan]

That's true. Like, he's a lot of ladies, but he good player. He's a good player. Yeah.

[Rachel Lindley]

Obviously he's a good player.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindley]

When we were talking and we drifted a little bit. Cause you were saying people come at you on Twitter for association with Deshaun. What do you want people to know and take away? People may assume certain things about you because of who you know or because they see you now where you are. Like, what? What do you want people to know when they watch this? What do you want them to take away?

[Quincy Avery]

I'm not saying, like, whatever you put your mind to, you can get. But if you just be really diligent, like you put your mind towards something and you work hard towards that thing, you might not get exactly that, but you're gonna get the benefits of just hard work and being dedicated to. To going after your dreams. I just want people to do that. Whatever that looks like. You might be a quarterback, you might be a salesman, you might be trying to start a podcast, right? But people quit so early, you don't even know if you could do it or not. Like, you didn't see no no's, you didn't push through, you didn't persevere. Like, that's the shit that I like. Like, do some hard shit. Pause. Like, do some difficult things.

[Van Lathan]

Do some difficult things. I had to stop.

[Quincy Avery]

Do some difficulties. Difficult things, like where you can learn some lessons. And I really want young kids to watch this because the kids I see parents get in the way of every obstacle. Like when they see something difficult come up, they try, nah, you don't need. That's who you like. When you're gonna go through some difficult times, you need to be able to look back. Like, man, I remember I went through this. I made it out. I know I can do this. And we not. We not building those muscles.

[Van Lathan]

Speaking of parents, Quincy, your old school that you got your start with has a new quarterback. Nico. Yeah, a lot of people think that Nico's parents have fucked his shit up. If you guys don't know this story, Nico Mal, you about to fuck this name. I'm about to fuck this, niggas.

[Rachel Lindley]

Can you help him out?

[Van Lathan]

Nico can't even do it. Nico. And Maliava was a blue chip quarterback, five star that went to Tennessee. Tennessee went to the college Football Playoff last year he had a pedestrian season. However, it was his first year in the offense and he had good enough numbers to make you think this guy has huge upside to be a big time player in the future. He was with Tennessee. They went to the College Football Playoff. The Reports from on 3 were that he asked them for $4 million to stay with the team. Josh Hyple, the coach of Tennessee, said, no, you don't get no $4 million. And other coaches around the country ended up not being players in his transfer either. If you guys don't know, it's big money deal for these quarterbacks now, particularly at these schools like Tennessee. He now is at ucla, that news broke just recently, and he's going to be getting less than $2 million. So his. He was making a little bit more than that.

[Quincy Avery]

Make like 2.2, 2.3, right?

[Van Lathan]

2.2, 2.2.3. He was making a little bit more than that when he was at Tennessee. So it cost him a little bit. And a lot of people are saying that with the money that he's been cost and the injury that it's done to his reputation, that his parents, who most people are saying were advising him, his father, particularly Big Nick, that they have led this man astray, this young man astray. What are your thoughts on that entire situation?

[Quincy Avery]

I think that he probably could have got some better information going into. But two people get a chance to make a decision, right? Tennessee had a chance to make a decision. Do we want to pay him more? Nico gets to go ask for more money. People do that in the NFL all the time. We don't have like a real long standing contract. Right. So every year we get to renegotiate. I know so many kids who've agreed to deals and before signing have been like, hey, I want a little bit more.

[Van Lathan]

And schools have given the money up.

[Quincy Avery]

Yeah, they've given the money up. So what Nico did was not that crazy. It didn't work out at Tennessee, he didn't get more money. But now he's at ucla, who probably runs an offense that's more fit for him to go to the NFL. So he might have cost him $500,000 next year, but he could have made himself $30 million in the future. So it might work out, it might not. I'm all for kids trying to get more money.

[Van Lathan]

You work out.

[Rachel Lindley]

I was gonna say nil. Good or bad? Like, good or bad?

[Quincy Avery]

As it stands, fuck these kids at schools, right? Like, they ain't been caring about black kids for so long. Like, it's time for us to go get the bag and however you gotta do it, go do it.

[Van Lathan]

So, okay, so let me tell you like this, all right? This is a big issue for me. I'm a traditionalist when it comes to college football. Just because I love LSU so much. Quincy. I can't tell you how much I love lsu.

[Quincy Avery]

No, I'm aware.

[Van Lathan]

It's ridiculous. Like, I get in fights over lsu. And we went to a game one time when LSU lost to ucla.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And we were walking out and one of these kids say, good, go back to the bayou. And I turned around and it was like, bam.

[Rachel Lindley]

We had to be like, relax.

[Van Lathan]

Like, continue. Continue to walk. Is nil in your opinion, good for the sport? Because I'm starting to wonder whether or not it's good for the sport.

[Quincy Avery]

We need some guardrails. We need some legislation. We need a cba.

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[Quincy Avery]

There needs to be a real. We need to just understand that these people are employees until we're honest with ourselves and just say that, then we're gonna continue to be in fucked up situations where kids can do whatever and we live in the wild, wild west.

[Rachel Lindley]

Top five quarterbacks right now in the league.

[Van Lathan]

Do it. All right.

[Quincy Avery]

You got that DOC list? Like, who's in the DOC list?

[Rachel Lindley]

No, no, no, no, no. We're not doing that. Be honest. Remember you. I mean, you're a truth teller.

[Van Lathan]

I gotta be honest.

[Quincy Avery]

My favorite people are just the people I work with. No, but I don't watch other people. I don't care about other dudes unless I'm going back and like, watching something for somebody else. So I watch tape for all of my guys.

[Van Lathan]

Okay?

[Quincy Avery]

So any quarterback that I train in the NFL, I go through and watch film of their upcoming opponent and then I'll send them notes so they'll have a PDF of the notes. So I don't really watch quarterbacks like that. I watch my guys.

[Van Lathan]

So who are the best quarterbacks then?

[Rachel Lindley]

Who are the best? Yeah, okay, Top five.

[Quincy Avery]

Geno, cj, Jordan. Love, Jalen. Hurts. Damn. I'm forgetting some folks.

[Van Lathan]

Who are the top five quarterbacks who need Quincy Avery.

[Quincy Avery]

Damn, that's crazy. I wouldn't say any NFL guys because they're in the NFL, right? They're solid guys. There's people who I really want to work with, Nico, because I think he's talented and I think he's been led astray and I want to be able to help him. So that's someone who I like. I see him like I can help you out. I can help you be not only a better quarterback, but help you navigate these situations a little bit. Because let's just say his parents did mess this up at one point. You gotta really separate yourselves from your parents. They can't be your manager parents, your manager and your parent because the lines get blurred and you end up in fucked up situations. In 15 years, we don't want him looking back like, I don't fuck with my dad because he put me in this bad situation and I wanted to be in the NFL. And now I'm working a job, like a regular job. And not that that's a bad thing, but I don't want him to be there. And that's the kind of situation I'd like to prevent. Guys, from.

[Van Lathan]

Jayden Daniels is with his mom a lot. People are starting to wonder what the hell's going on.

[Quincy Avery]

Jaden Daniels, mom, I've known him since he was in high school. She's always been really, really involved. Like we were at the Elite 11 and his mom was out there the whole week.

[Rachel Lindley]

I think that I like him.

[Quincy Avery]

That's unique.

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[Quincy Avery]

In that situation.

[Van Lathan]

But she's never.

[Quincy Avery]

I've never seen her be like, problematic.

[Van Lathan]

Right, right.

[Quincy Avery]

There's people who talk about her at Arizona State and her being in the way in some recruiting stuff, but every interaction I've had with her is positive. I think that oftentimes we do need somebody to, like, maybe not on the football side, but to really be a mom.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

Like, watch out for them in their girlfriend situations. All that. Maybe a little too far in that. But you know, she cares about them.

[Rachel Lindley]

I like it. I like all that energy. That's how I would be.

[Van Lathan]

I think that my knee jerk is to be like, it's too much. But you can't have it both ways. You can't have a situation to where you're saying, nobody cares about these young athletes and then also have it as somebody cares about these young athletes too much. You know what I mean? You can't have it both ways. So I think that if I have to make a decision about it, it's his mom. She wants to make sure his career goes smoothly and he keeps his eye on the prize. And so she's looking out for.

[Quincy Avery]

Yeah, but you gotta let him also be an adult, like at one point, we gotta let him figure out some shit on his own.

[Rachel Lindley]

I've seen that go bad for some people.

[Quincy Avery]

I have too. I have to.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay, no, no, go ahead. Cause I was gonna go get the football over there.

[Van Lathan]

Go get the football.

[Rachel Lindley]

I need. I need you to understand. He wears these gloves, though. He's starting to wear them every podcast at this point. They're baseball. They're baseball gloves.

[Quincy Avery]

I noticed the texture of the material.

[Van Lathan]

Was the baseball gloves. Yeah. So they basically.

[Quincy Avery]

So what just brought that upon you?

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, go back to the text to him DMing you, because I didn't believe it when I was with. We were in Austin and I was like, no, no, you, you, you. You must have a different van.

[Van Lathan]

I have a lot of quarterback coaches because I want to. I wanted to start quarterbacking. Okay. I want to start because I see all the quarterback. Hold on for a second. Let me see. I'm gonna do the one glove like Tom Brady. I want to start quarterbacking. I need you before I even get into. Let me see, let me see.

[Rachel Lindley]

Wait, wait. Donnie Quincy send this to Donnie.

[Van Lathan]

What?

[Rachel Lindley]

You sent a picture of yourself holding the football?

[Camille Lewis]

Who do you think you are?

[Van Lathan]

I was trying to reach out to the best quarterback coach in the fucking game.

[Camille Lewis]

Thank you.

[Van Lathan]

To get some help so I could quarterback. So this is my Quincy. You gotta rate my quarterback cosplay so we get the call in. Okay. All right, I'm here.

[Quincy Avery]

In the huddle.

[Van Lathan]

I'm in the huddle right now. In the huddle right now. All right, strong right. Y dig, X post, Z go all one on one. Ready, Break.

[Quincy Avery]

Said Y digg.

[Van Lathan]

So Y's running the dig.

[Quincy Avery]

Y' all got that?

[Van Lathan]

So Y's running the dig, the Z post. Z post.

[Quincy Avery]

So they're on the same side.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

So we got like a quarters concept, but then quarters coverage.

[Van Lathan]

We got the post office, right? We got. The dig is going to take away that safety.

[Quincy Avery]

And then we got the post office.

[Van Lathan]

The host is going over the top.

[Quincy Avery]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. And then we got the go on the other side, on the left side. Cause that's our guy. We're going. And look, we got the back in the backfield. We're good, right? And so I'm gonna come out. We're going on Mary, Silent Mary. Then the ball snapping. Okay, I get the ball, and when I come back, my first read is the dig.

[Quincy Avery]

Okay?

[Van Lathan]

My first read is the dig. Cause I'm gonna take. I'm taking that. I'm taking that. Yeah, I get you saying, like, if the yards are there, I'm gonna take em. However, if I see the post coming over the top, I'm gonna hit the post.

[Quincy Avery]

That's a great plan.

[Van Lathan]

And then if I got time, I might see what I have on the left and maybe throw, you know, a back shoulder or a 5050 to my goal, you know, if I got somebody that I liked, depending on the personnel. What are your thoughts?

[Quincy Avery]

I kind of like the plan. We're going to need some flat control on the right.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. Okay.

[Quincy Avery]

Now when we think about this X on the left side of the field, like we can only take that like one on one press coverage.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Quincy Avery]

Best matchup and the free safety has got to not be involved. He's got to be like what you call like fishing or looking for the Y on the other side. If we get in that situation, you.

[Van Lathan]

Got to go there right now.

[Quincy Avery]

You can't go here, here.

[Van Lathan]

So that can't be a third read. Cause I'm.

[Quincy Avery]

No, we gotta be alert to that.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. So tell me what you mean by that.

[Quincy Avery]

So this is a pre snap, pre snap read.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, so you're gonna look so as.

[Quincy Avery]

I'm walking to the line of scrimmage.

[Van Lathan]

If you see press, I'm going there.

[Quincy Avery]

But then you have to be aware of where the free safety is.

[Van Lathan]

Ok.

[Quincy Avery]

So if he's inside the hash, then you got a chance.

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[Quincy Avery]

Like we could make something happen there.

[Van Lathan]

Right now does personnel matter here? Yes, because.

[Quincy Avery]

Because you didn't give me anything for your backs.

[Van Lathan]

They're in pass protection.

[Quincy Avery]

So you're going seven man pass pro.

[Van Lathan]

Well, yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

Then this isn't going to work.

[Van Lathan]

Why?

[Quincy Avery]

Because you don't have enough people out to get open?

[Van Lathan]

Well, you didn't go play action or anything.

[Quincy Avery]

It's just, it's a bad play. This is not. It went from a good plan to a bad play.

[Van Lathan]

Well, let me tell you something. Let me tell you why. This is why I run on college football, okay? This is what I run on college football. Look, if I could put the back on a wheel to the same side as the. You know what I mean?

[Quincy Avery]

Just the what I want to know.

[Van Lathan]

So I put the back on the wheel to the same side as the post dig. No, no, no, no, no.

[Quincy Avery]

As the go.

[Van Lathan]

As the go. I could put the back on the wheel the same side as opposed to. I'm not going to put him on the other side because he's just going to. He's going to ruin the concept over there.

[Quincy Avery]

So what's your. You're not going to run like a high completion percentage offense. That's not sustainable.

[Van Lathan]

Well, here's the thing. What I could if I am willing to settle for short throws.

[Quincy Avery]

That's where you live at. That's why Tom Brady's the best quarterback.

[Van Lathan]

If I'm willing to settle for short throws. If I'm willing to settle for short throws, I can make. Well, how about this?

[Quincy Avery]

I just don't like how you're holding the football.

[Van Lathan]

Ok.

[Quincy Avery]

I feel like it's too deep in the depths of your.

[Van Lathan]

So I don't know.

[Rachel Lindley]

This is great, by the way, because how many people come to you at this big age and say, I want to get into quarterbacking. I don't even know what that's. I want to get into quarterback.

[Van Lathan]

I want to get back, I want to get better. I want to be good at all things that I do.

[Quincy Avery]

Are you committed to it?

[Van Lathan]

I'm committed to it.

[Quincy Avery]

I'm here to help.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so tell me.

[Quincy Avery]

That's better.

[Van Lathan]

So somebody. So somebody that's learning how to throw it. Let's see how that was a little flip. Somebody that's learning how to throw it. How do you give a beginner's class right there on throwing a football?

[Quincy Avery]

We in this camera.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

So you have some options. You can go here. I'm so glad I'm not ashy. I just had to start with that. Okay, so we can start with our like middle finger here. That's if you have bigger hands.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

Or you can take it up here.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

Or here. And that's probably. Those are your three levels of where we can put our fingers.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, wow. I always thought it was in the middle.

[Quincy Avery]

In the middle. You have no chance.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen.

[Rachel Lindley]

I mean.

[Van Lathan]

So space. Do you go space between here?

[Quincy Avery]

I got a little space in between there.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Quincy Avery]

I don't need it all in there. But a lot of times what I see is people like you kind of did that earlier. Like kind of putting the depths of your hand.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

Doesn't allow you space for your thumb.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Quincy Avery]

Like you can't control the footballs with them. Now when releasing this football, the last thing that's gonna make contact with the.

[Van Lathan]

Football is the index finger.

[Quincy Avery]

Exactly.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindley]

To think about all that.

[Van Lathan]

I know.

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm sure it comes right here.

[Quincy Avery]

That's really good.

[Van Lathan]

I'm right here.

[Quincy Avery]

We got a chance.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, damn.

[Van Lathan]

You know what I mean?

[Rachel Lindley]

That's all you need.

[Quincy Avery]

You gotta relax your shoulders a little bit.

[Van Lathan]

Relax my shoulders? Pump fake, you know, pump fake.

[Rachel Lindley]

How long are you in la?

[Quincy Avery]

Don't pump fake like that though. No, no, don't do that.

[Van Lathan]

How do I pump like that?

[Quincy Avery]

No, definitely don't do that. Who starts throwing the football like that? What's the first thing that happens when you start throwing a football?

[Van Lathan]

When I throw the football, when anybody.

[Quincy Avery]

Does, what's the first thing that happens?

[Van Lathan]

You rotate your hips.

[Quincy Avery]

Hell, no.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. You rotate your knees.

[Quincy Avery]

No, you don't rotate shit. You rotate your shoulder. Is your hands. Separate your hand.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, but they don't go up.

[Quincy Avery]

Like, they just go this way.

[Van Lathan]

So that's the.

[Quincy Avery]

Don't stop doing that. Just do this.

[Van Lathan]

That's the pump fake.

[Quincy Avery]

You see how my hands are turning like that? Like, you see this thumb?

[Van Lathan]

This is my first quarterback. Turn your thumb over like this.

[Rachel Lindley]

He's horizontal.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Quincy Avery]

So the tip of the football should be getting to your target. Like, if you just start like that, then you're.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, I see. So I'm pump faking. I'm like this.

[Quincy Avery]

Well, no, let me see it. So we're starting like this.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, so a pump fake is.

[Quincy Avery]

They see that. They jump, right? They see this, like, get the fuck out of here.

[Van Lathan]

So they're not going. So what about. What's your. What's your opinion on. On patting the ball?

[Quincy Avery]

Should keep patting it. Who cares if you pat the football? It takes no time.

[Rachel Lindley]

It's for sure.

[Quincy Avery]

Well, it's sequencing people up, okay? This is a bunch of nerdy football shit that I'm sure that the folks are.

[Van Lathan]

I don't give a. Fuck them.

[Quincy Avery]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Fuck them. Cool.

[Quincy Avery]

Okay, so this is a sequencing thing, right? It's not anything else.

[Rachel Lindley]

This is a dream.

[Van Lathan]

You know what? I can throw a picture schedule.

[Quincy Avery]

You go on the street when you get done.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, we can throw the football.

[Quincy Avery]

I'm leaving tonight.

[Van Lathan]

When I see them, when they're. When they're doing their. Their little. When they're good ball that I just wanted somebody. I just want one time for somebody to say good ball. You know, I throw the ball, get good sp. You know what, Rachel? You know, here's the thing.

[Rachel Lindley]

I stay in my lane. We'll let you know what I'm good at.

[Van Lathan]

Let me tell you something right now.

[Camille Lewis]

But I'm not.

[Van Lathan]

If you look at it like that, you're never gonna be good at nothing. All right? Like, it's like me. You just said you're never gonna be good at nothing. What I'm saying is I'm gonna start quarterbacking.

[Camille Lewis]

And with who.

[Rachel Lindley]

Who are you throwing to, literally? Huh?

[Van Lathan]

Flag football league. Flag football league. Get out there. I'm gonna start quarterbacking.

[Rachel Lindley]

You know, you got time before the Olympics. Can you imagine? Are you gonna be training people for that?

[Quincy Avery]

I'm actually in negotiations to Coach a national team for the Olympics.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, wow.

[Rachel Lindley]

That's amazing. Come on.

[Quincy Avery]

I'm trying to go up.

[Van Lathan]

I'm gonna be on.

[Rachel Lindley]

Come on. That would be great. I'm so into flag. I'm so into this.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Don't act like you into it. Now that me and Quincy started our.

[Rachel Lindley]

Journey, I'm the one who said it. I put you in it, brother.

[Van Lathan]

When does the. When does the documentary come out?

[Quincy Avery]

April 23rd.

[Van Lathan]

April 23rd. What's the future? Last question. What's the future for Quincy Avery? Do you see yourself as. Would you ever want to be on the sidelines? No, I never want to coach.

[Quincy Avery]

I don't want to coach like that. I want to get.

[Rachel Lindley]

You want your freedom?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Quincy Avery]

I mean, you see how much I be traveling, so I ain't that free, but I don't. I don't want to. I don't want success for me to look like wins and losses. Actually, when the last thing I did at ucla, well, one of the last things I asked, like an associate ad, I was like, instead of us getting these guys, like, sweatsuits for away games, why don't we get them suits so when they get done, they can get a job? We can help them out. We can make sure we're setting these dudes up for success. He's like, yes, it's not really our job. Oh, that was the last thing. That was the thing that pretty much ended it for me. Like, I care about these dudes. I want folks to be successful. I wanna. So I don't want it to be wins and losses.

[Van Lathan]

Get outta here with that life shit, nigger. Yeah.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, congrats on everything you're doing.

[Van Lathan]

Seriously proud of you. Seriously, man.

[Rachel Lindley]

Seriously.

[Van Lathan]

Congrats on everything that you're doing. Once again, the Quincy Avery effect. Hulu starting April 23. Jalen hurts Justin Fields. Super bowl champion. Jalen hurts Justin fields. Jordan Love, C.J. stroud. Tony Dunn. You weren't moving. Featuring in the doc. Continued success, brother. We gonna get on the field, man.

[Quincy Avery]

Appreciate it. Don't do that, though.

[Van Lathan]

All right? We have to get outta here. We have Camille Lewis coming on the podcast right now. We're gonna talk sex, love porn, and the normalization of talking about sex. Next. Fantastic interview. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card.

[Quincy Avery]

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[Van Lathan]

For my car and booking places to stay.

[Quincy Avery]

Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is.

[Van Lathan]

Perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple card for your summer travels, apply on the Wallet app on your iPhone today.

[Quincy Avery]

Subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch.

[Van Lathan]

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[Quincy Avery]

18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of July 1, 2025 Terms and.

[Rachel Lindley]

[e-mail] this episode is brought to you by ebay. We all have that piece.

[Camille Lewis]

The one that's so you.

[Rachel Lindley]

You've basically become known to for it.

[Camille Lewis]

And if you don't yet fashionistas, you'll find it on ebay.

[Rachel Lindley]

That Miu Miu red leather bomber, the cousteau Barcelona cowboy top, or that Patagonia fleece in the 2017 colorway.

[Camille Lewis]

All these finds are all on ebay.

[Rachel Lindley]

Along with millions of more main character pieces backed by authenticity guarantee. Ebay is the place for pre loved and vintage fashion. EBay things people love.

[Van Lathan]

All right, it's time to talk about sex and love and relationships. And I feel like it's something that a lot of people need to talk more about and get educated about and get, you know, help with because I feel like a lot of people are really girded up and hung up about it. We have somebody that's gonna talk to us about this stuff. A lot of the viewers and listeners think that I need this.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, this was. This was for you. Can I just say I met Camille. We were having lunch at the same time at the Pendry. My friend came over to your group. Cause he just thought you guys were fabulous. And then we realized that we both. You're friends with Mark Anthony's sister, who.

[Van Lathan]

Was Mark Anthony Green?

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, Mag, who we had on the podcast. And then you mentioned that you were a sex therapist. And I was like, oh my gosh. Nobody needs this more than Van Lathan.

[Van Lathan]

That's so upsetting that people say this.

[Rachel Lindley]

But this is a gift. This is what you. Maybe this is a birthday present for me. I thought about you when I. And I mean this in the most positive way. Cause I know you think I throw shade. So we are so happy to have you on the podcast. I'm glad we could make this happen.

[Van Lathan]

Camille Lewis is her name. Licensed marriage and family therapist with a master's degree in clinical psychology. Now, before you were a therapist, you had a career in law and entertainment. Tell us about your former life.

[Camille Lewis]

I thought that I wanted to be an Attorney. And so I spent, like, several years working at big law firms and then at NBC in their legal department. More like paralegal stuff. And it didn't really resonate.

[Rachel Lindley]

I get it.

[Camille Lewis]

And then I was surrounded by miserable lawyers and people telling me not to do it. And it wasn't because of that that I didn't do it, but I was like, if I felt excited and passionate about it, I would have pursued it. But then I was really thinking about how to make more individualized impacts on the black community, specifically. And I was like, mental health, let's go. And my mom's a psychologist. She told me not to do it, and I didn't listen to her either, so.

[Rachel Lindley]

But you're happy being.

[Camille Lewis]

I'm really happy.

[Rachel Lindley]

A therapist. Very happy. That is very true about lawyers. Lawyers will tell you when you work. Same thing with me. You don't want to do this. It's miserable. I've never experienced that in any other career like I have with law.

[Camille Lewis]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindley]

So you made the right decision. We both did. We both did.

[Van Lathan]

Tell me one thing. Marriage and family therapist, sex therapist. One thing you would want black men specifically to know about sex.

[Camille Lewis]

Black men specifically to know about sex.

[Van Lathan]

Um.

[Camille Lewis]

There'S so much. But I think that I would want black men to know that, like, their sexuality is their own. And I think that because of all the messaging that we get about sex and being hypersexualized, especially for black men, you think that you might need to perform a certain way, look a certain way, be interested in certain things, and that being curious and exploring is the most, I think, one of the most important components of sex. And so if you're, like, patient and curious with yourself, that that is essential to having pleasurable sexuality.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah, I love that question, and I love the answer. And I'm wondering, like, in the work that you do, do you see more people coming to you as, I guess, the stereotype of what it is to be masculine is being challenged more and more as we move forward? Do you see that with young boys? Black boys? Do you see that with adult men? Can you talk a little bit about that?

[Camille Lewis]

Yeah, I think that the way that masculinity has been evolving is really interesting because it's always looked different across different communities globally. But the way that it has been formed by patriarchy here in the US Is really intense. And I've seen more men be curious about their sexuality, be curious about the things that they like and that they're interested in. And, like, I think the biggest question is, like, if I Like this, does that make me gay? Does that make me, like, weird? Whatever it is? And so a lot of the work that I do is normalizing and really working on acceptance and being curious about pleasure and where it lives in your body and how to access it. And so I would say, yeah, I work mostly with adults, so not as much with minors, but that's mostly what I see. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Are men afraid of pleasure?

[Camille Lewis]

I think that. I don't know that men are afraid. I think that most people are afraid of pleasure because the world that we live in kind of teaches you not to be engaged with pleasure. And I think that men feel like they are supposed to feel pleasure by certain things. Like, certain things. They're always supposed to be horny. They're always, always supposed to be ready to go. And so they might not be as patient with themselves. And so I don't think that they're as curious as I would hope for folks to be. But I don't know about afraid. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Well, the reason why I say that is because to experience true pleasure, in my opinion, sometimes you have to let go.

[Camille Lewis]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Sometimes you have to relinquish control. Sometimes you have to give up a part of you and you have to make a secret and give up a.

[Camille Lewis]

Part of you and make a secret.

[Van Lathan]

What I mean is, like, the best thing about intimacy to me isn't the physical act. It's the little thing. Hey, it's me. It's you, It's. Hey, you taking your clothes off? I'm taking my clothes off. Now, all the things that we kind of put up in the world to shield ourselves from one another for whatever reason, be it lust, be it feeling, whatever, we've just decided to shatter all of those and become two things together, making a little pact. And I think that a lot of times in that if you can't really let go, you'll try to control yourself or control the situation to where you're not having as much fun and indulging as much as you should be. And I think that comes from perception, you know, for sure it comes from, like, what you think is going to be the reaction to that, like, after you're finished and after you're done with it. And a lot of times, like, you know, when we were in the crew back in the day, we would debrief after one of the homies would have sex with somebody that we knew.

[Rachel Lindley]

Y' all do that? Well, y' all just put all our business out there.

[Van Lathan]

No, it's not so much about the woman as it is about the guy.

[Rachel Lindley]

You can't tell the story without talking about her.

[Van Lathan]

Well, you can. Listen. I'll tell you what the debrief was. Especially if my homie. If the homie is after somebody and he's been after her for a while, and then they have the sexual relations and stuff like that, we're not debriefing to see the ins and outs of it. We're seeing if he was up to the task. Because back in the day. Meaning if he hit it. Right. Cause back in the day, in Louisiana. In Louisiana. Louisian, Louisiana, the BDRs would go around. And if you. The bad dick reports.

[Rachel Lindley]

Oh, I thought it was big dick report. Okay.

[Van Lathan]

And so if the bad dick report came back and got to the crew, it wasn't the ladies. That would be on you. The rest of the crew would be on you.

[Camille Lewis]

What does it mean to have bad dick?

[Van Lathan]

The women decide that, then they come back, and then they say, bdr for this guy. And then as younger men, we would, you know, give them the business. That's how toxic we were.

[Rachel Lindley]

Can we please. Yes. Can we please break this down?

[Van Lathan]

Yes.

[Rachel Lindley]

Cause one, I gotta know if this is very common. And two, by the way, we didn't.

[Van Lathan]

Make up the bdrs. The women made them up.

[Rachel Lindley]

But that's. But then how did that get circulated back to you?

[Van Lathan]

Because they would tell us if there was a bdr. If you had a BDR out about you, the girls. So we had a group of ladies, so we were player proof. And then we had a female counterpart group. They were the Pink Ladies.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. If a BDR was circulating about one of our homeboys and they got wind of it, there would be an Athee, a Marie, a Allison, a Tedra, that would bring this back to us and tell us. And then it was up to us to excoriate each other.

[Rachel Lindley]

This sounds problematic, is it not?

[Camille Lewis]

I think that. I think that talking about sex is important. So I think that what you were talking about when you first started talking was shame and, like, the secrets that we keep as a result. And a lot of us, especially, like black folks, are taught to not talk about sex.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yeah.

[Camille Lewis]

And I think that that is where we really do ourselves a disservice, because that's where you don't get conversation about curiosity, pleasure, or consent, really. So do I think that. I think, you know, I think I would just be more curious about, like, what it means to have bad dick, what it means to be good in bed, what good sex means, and the more that you can Be like, wanting to define those things for yourself is important.

[Rachel Lindley]

I. Okay, I wanna talk about the talking about sex thing. Cause I grew up, like, I'm sure, like a lot of our listeners or whatever, in a Southern, very religious family. You didn't talk about it. When I wrote about it in my book, I. I was like, my mom put a poster, which she's mortified now after reading it. And it was the first time that I was very open about my past sexually. And that was very hard for me, even at 36, when I was writing this book. Like, extremely hard. But my mom's way of teaching me about sex was putting up an abstinence poster. And that was it. And as I. No words were spoken, it was just like, here, slam the four corners. Big, bold, in all caps, absence and walked out. And I remember I was on the phone with someone and I just started laughing. But that was literally my conversation. I'm not saying that she did that when, when I was 14 or 15. And I'm not doing this to shame my mom. I think a lot of people do this, especially also growing up in purity culture. So it was hard for me growing up and even into adulthood, I felt a little shame about talking about sex. And Van is way more open about it. And sometimes maybe he's one extreme and then I get accused of being prude. But I'm saying all this to say I'm better at talking about it now. But I was having a conversation with a girlfriend who is much more open about sex with her partners than I have been. And she said something to me of, do you ask your partner what they like sexually? And it blew my mind. I had never asked that and nobody had ever asked me that. Is that something. And it's been. I love the freedom that that has brought. Has been great. Is that something like, can you talk about the importance of asking? And then how quickly should you ask someone that you're intimate with what they like, what they don't like? Yeah, kind of like the love language.

[Camille Lewis]

Of sex is how I. Yeah, I mean, like to your point about purity culture, it's such, it has such a impact on how people relate to their bodies and to sex. And the abstinence only education is really, really common, especially like in the American south and all over. So, like, having comprehensive sex ed means you have to talk about it. Like, and when you don't, and we see what abstinence only education does, like more pregnancies or, you know, fatal abortions or not access to abortion care, things like that. So talking about sex is so important because then you get to understand that it is something that most people are participating in in some way, even if they're not having it. So if the first time that you hear about sex or talk about sex is when you're having it, that's really scary to me because you have no idea what to expect or you think you know what to expect because your homeboy taught you or you saw it in this movie or whatever. And.

[Van Lathan]

Bdr, that was later, that was college.

[Camille Lewis]

But like, talking about sex is so important. And to your question about how soon, I think it might as soon as possible. And I think talking about it, practicing so that you talk about it as casually as you would talk about anything else. And being like, so what? Like, what feels good to you is a good. Without judgment. Yeah, without judgment. And you can ask them and get their answers. And that might not be in alignment with what you like. And I think that's such a great place to either decide, okay, I'd like, I'm curious, I want to explore more. Or that's really like a limit for me. I'm not interested. Then you really save yourselves from being in uncomfortable situations when you might have sex with that person. Both of you have completely different ideas of what it means to have sex. And a lot of people think that sex is only like penis in vagina, penetration, and sex is so many other things than that. And so you kind of like rob yourself of the ability to learn more about yourself when you don't talk about it.

[Van Lathan]

So I'm the resident weirdo here because a lot of times with the viewers and with Rachel, because, like, I was raised in a completely different type of household.

[Camille Lewis]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

So my parents had a very loving and sexual relationship.

[Camille Lewis]

Okay, that's awesome.

[Van Lathan]

They were extremely affectionate with one another. They were great looking people that enjoyed each other. Like, sometimes, you know, me and my sister would be in the house or whatever and all of a sudden my dad would give us money and like, go get you something to eat. Yeah, right. And then they would just be in the room all day long. And so then I would like, I would needle my mom about that. Just making a little joke, like getting at her be like, oh, what you and daddy was doing in the room today? And she was like, oh, we were having sex all day long. Is that the answer you wanted? That's how she would talk.

[Camille Lewis]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

And she would. But they were so open that I think sometimes I am maybe a little bit too open.

[Camille Lewis]

How so?

[Van Lathan]

Like, I'll just I'll talk about things. Like, I have.

[Rachel Lindley]

No, like, you'll say things. Let's give examples on the podcast.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, give examples.

[Rachel Lindley]

Like, you'll say, well, he's told stories about seeing his parents. It was funny.

[Van Lathan]

Well, that was an accident. That was very painful.

[Camille Lewis]

So he walked in.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, that's tough.

[Rachel Lindley]

He said what? He wants his mom. How he wants his mom to be sexually pleased.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, okay, right. So I want. So, listen, this is the thing.

[Rachel Lindley]

People were upset about that on the show.

[Van Lathan]

People were upset about that because I said that I want my mom to be sexually fulfilled because I know what an important part of her life that was. And I watched her, as a woman, like, be able to assert that and talk about that. My mother and my. And so I want my mom to have a guy, to have a person, and to have a sexual relationship and be sexually fulfilled right now. And that's not the response. See how you're shrugging and going, oh, that's cool.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, because you have a little bicycle story. I can't remember what you were saying about the bike. It was a little much.

[Van Lathan]

It's not much. It's the fact that I want my mom to have somebody to have sex with me.

[Rachel Lindley]

The way you just posed at this time was beautiful, because we have company here. This was about, like, riding a bicycle in the seat. Something you were talking.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know what you're talking about.

[Rachel Lindley]

Yes, it was.

[Van Lathan]

Well, no, no, no. I bought her a bike. But listen, a lot of people are uncomfortable saying, hey, this is a part of life that people glean pleasure from. And if you want the best for someone. How could you want the best for someone in life and not want them to be having good sex? So am I the weirdo, or is the audience, like, way too prudish? I'm a bunch of prudes in the world.

[Camille Lewis]

I think that people are shamed. So I don't. And I think that, like, everybody has a spectrum of the way that they relate to sex. And so I don't think that you're weird for that. I think that you're attuned for that. And I think that it's really lovely that you want your mom to feel pleasure and fulfillment.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindley]

See, the way you described it was beautiful. I promise you that it wasn't that easy to digest. The audience would never be upset with what you just said.

[Van Lathan]

Now, that's not true.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, we'll get Donnie to play it back so you can refresh your memory, because it was. I don't even know what the word to use it was a lot. You being a sex therapist, how did you decide? Like, that's the type of. Because you do more than that. You do relationship love, you know, as Van talked about in your intro, how is it that you decided this is what I also wanna make a part of my practice?

[Camille Lewis]

Yeah, I think that when I was in grad school and trying to figure out what I wanted to specialize in, I really wanted to focus on something I could see myself talking about regularly for years. And I was like, well, I've always liked talking about sex. It's really interesting to talk about sex. When I think about the communities that I work with, which is mostly black people or other bipoc people and queer people, it's thinking about the things that also, like, make us further relegated to the shadows, which is to shame sex, pleasure and liberation. And so I was like, this will be fun for me to talk about. I'm curious about it. And I think that there's so much healing that can be done around sex. That is actually about what you mentioned earlier, which is actually about intimacy. It's actually about relationships. It's actually about feeling seen and loved and cared for. That's mostly what people actually want to talk about. Even if they're coming in and they want to talk about their different kinks or their fetishes, or it's a couple or it's a triad of people, everybody really just wants to feel connected. So, yeah, I think I answered the question.

[Rachel Lindley]

No, no, no.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, they just want to be told that what they like is okay 100%, that what they like is okay. You're into it. What's not okay? I'll tell you what I mean. So, you know, sometimes the conversations that we have here and the conversations that other people have other places, the conversations are more about what's not okay than they are about what's okay. So we don't have very many conversations that are like, hey, it's okay if you like this, it's okay if you want to show this, it's okay. What we have, we have conversations about what you shouldn't be doing, how you shouldn't be doing it. Like, there was a teacher that we talked about one time and go back to this.

[Rachel Lindley]

I got it wrong. I got it wrong.

[Van Lathan]

There was a teacher that we talked about one time and she lost her job. She's actually gone on to become. She's having a pretty big content creation career. Shout out to Christina. She said that. She said that she wanted some heavy dick on the weekend she put this on Twitter and she lost her job as a substitute teacher. And I was thinking to myself, that's wrong. Why should she lose her job as a substitute teacher? Because she tweeted out that she wanted some heavy dick on the weekend. Rachel and I disagreed on this, but I see a lot of this. I see conversations about where you should and should not be twerking. I see conversations about how you should dress, how you shouldn't dress, about sex workers and whether or not sex work is legitimate work and how do you treat an OnlyFans person and all of that stuff. Seems like we're having a lot more conversations that are trying to either put guardrails around or restrictions upon people's sexuality. Is there a limit that isn't okay? Is there something that is unhealthy? Is there a way to be too sexually free? Is there a way to be too sexual? Are there places where you should just cover up and keep your goddamn legs close?

[Camille Lewis]

Well, I think that that question is like, I think it's determined by the individual. Like I don't think that there's anything necessarily that's too much other than things that are non consensual. So sex with minors, sex with animals, things like that? Yeah, other than that, I'm good with most things.

[Van Lathan]

Wow, you're down for it all.

[Camille Lewis]

Not me personally, like I'm not personally doing everything, but I think that as long as there's like negotiation and consent, I don't think that. I think that sex is meant to be enjoyed. And so I think that everybody is going to have different things that pleasure them and that they enjoy.

[Van Lathan]

So what do you feel about the conversation around sex work right now? As OnlyFans and other platforms have sort of democratized sex work in a way that has both put it back in the hands of the creator, but also has made it very. Has lowered the barrier to it so that a lot more people are doing it. Some people say that that's good for society, some people say that it is bad because it's part of the hypersexuality of society. What do you say?

[Camille Lewis]

Well, I think that society has a sexuality, so it's really natural that there are going to be people who engage with their sexuality more publicly than other people. It's been around since the beginning of time. So I think that if people want to engage in sex work at whatever level, if that's, you know, being in films or onlyfans or stripping or camming, whatever, I think that everybody should be allowed to engage in it the way that they want. I think that OnlyFans is more accessible for certain people. And I think that, um, it's also. I think probably we saw more of it emerge during the beginning of COVID because people couldn't access other types of sex work. So I think that it's interesting and I think that it's creative. I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

[Rachel Lindley]

What are some signs that maybe you need to go to sex therapy?

[Camille Lewis]

I would say if. If you're curious about your sexuality, curious about gender identity, if you want a place to talk about the things that you're interested in and you have no place to go to, if you're curious just about, like, what sex is and what it means. Like, I've had a lot of clients come who I do a lot of, like, psychoeducation with. So I do a lot of. Well, this is what consent is. No, you don't have to do this just because he's your boyfriend. This is what it means to have a kink or explore that kink. This is what it means to negotiate those kinks. But a lot of people might come to sex therapy or think they need a sex therapist because of addiction. And I have a different take on that, which might ruffle some feathers.

[Van Lathan]

Let's hear it.

[Camille Lewis]

Well, I think that a lot of people will come because they think that there's a porn or a sex addiction. And I find it really. I've never seen it in my career of somebody who I would say meets, like, diagnostic criteria. There also isn't, like, in the DSM really, like, a addiction to porn. That's not something that exists.

[Van Lathan]

So it's not real. You say?

[Camille Lewis]

Oh, I would say it's not real. I would say that it would have to. I would say your response.

[Rachel Lindley]

Well, he's closed the door and you might have opened it.

[Van Lathan]

So you're saying that it's a lot of mumbo jumbo about what? The porn addiction, the fairy tale of porn addiction. Say more.

[Camille Lewis]

Well, I would be curious when people come to me for a consultation and say, my girlfriend says I should come here because she thinks I'm addicted to porn. That's something common that I might hear. And then I would ask them, what is your porn usage like? So for you, I'd ask you that. Do the backup. What was it like?

[Rachel Lindley]

Let's not talk anything now.

[Van Lathan]

So, okay, so now not negligible. Negligible. Not happening.

[Camille Lewis]

Which means not at all, basically.

[Van Lathan]

Basically.

[Camille Lewis]

What's Basically, I would get maybe once A month, Literally.

[Rachel Lindley]

Wow.

[Van Lathan]

Once, maybe twice a month. I'm serious.

[Rachel Lindley]

So I want you to say what it was at your peak.

[Van Lathan]

At the peak?

[Rachel Lindley]

At the peak.

[Van Lathan]

It was a lot.

[Camille Lewis]

Okay, what's a lot?

[Van Lathan]

So let's say I was in what's called a session.

[Camille Lewis]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindley]

Don't be shamed.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, you'd watch a lot of.

[Camille Lewis]

Porn, but what's a lot? See, these are the questions. And people are uncomfortable.

[Van Lathan]

Three hours a day.

[Camille Lewis]

Three hours a day. Consecutively.

[Van Lathan]

Not consecutively, because you get sore. So I would say when you're on. I would say you were definitely masturbating every day at a point. Sure, definitely masturbating every day. But you were watching a lot of porn to get there. So I would say yeah. Yeah. You were carving out a couple. Three hours, maybe longer. Maybe sometimes four hours. Maybe sometimes you come home from the gym and you take an afternoon to wind down and you would use porn. Okay. Yeah.

[Camille Lewis]

A lot of people come home from the gym and they might cook or watch TV for hours. And that is enjoyable to them to wind down.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Camille Lewis]

Would that be a problem?

[Van Lathan]

Not to me.

[Camille Lewis]

Right. So where it becomes maladaptive is if somebody is, let's say I have a meeting at work, and rather than prepare for that meeting or be on time for that meeting, I'm watching porn in excess. It's maladaptive then. It's interfering with the way that I'm living my life now. I do this instead of having other relationships, which I do see about how to have a relationship with porn so that you can also have relationships with other people. But it's rare that I've seen it so that it gets to that level. And a lot of it is really understanding, like, what porn watch and usage does for the person. And a lot of it could be it helps me wind down, it helps me de stress, it helps me go to sleep. A lot of these things are like ritual based. A lot of people watch porn regularly to fall asleep. I think that we do lots of things like that people drink tea or they might meditate. And some people watch porn. But the reason that it is so kind of like shamed and relegated to the shadows is because it has to do with pleasure. It has to do with you feeling good. And I think especially for black people, we, the world benefits when we don't. So when we don't feel good, when we don't feel access to ourselves or our bodies, when we're super cerebral and in our heads and we are just focused on like doing and achieving and all of that, then we have no idea that we can be community based, connect with each other, feel good, feel liberation.

[Van Lathan]

Are you saying that watching porn is pro black? Cause I could get with that.

[Camille Lewis]

I think that I could say that. I think it could be said, oh.

[Rachel Lindley]

What does it depend what type of porn you're watching?

[Camille Lewis]

Oh, I think that I would have to ask person, not.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, well, so this is what I'm. Okay, so this is what I will say. I've never, like, I've never been in a situation where I've been like, you know, man, you know, new Roxy Reynolds just dropped. I gotta watch this so I don't go to the basketball game or miss work. I've never been in that situation. But there was a time when free time that I had that wasn't carved out for basketball. Cause I was playing a lot of basketball. I was in the gym a lot, right? Free time that wasn't carved out for basketball or for work. It was like, I did schedule it. Okay, I did say that. Like, okay, so I'm gonna get up, I'm gonna go to the gym from. I'm a hoop from 8 to 12. Okay, all right. I'm a hoop from 8 to 12. This was when I was unemployed. I'm a hoop from 8 to 12.

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm a.

[Van Lathan]

Right from 12 to 3:30, 12 to 4. Then I gotta go pick up somebody at 6 or 7. So in that time when it's free porn time.

[Camille Lewis]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

Nothing wrong with that.

[Camille Lewis]

Not to me.

[Van Lathan]

I'm back.

[Camille Lewis]

Well, to me, like, that sounds like to me a plan of the day. Like, a lot of people who are partnered, they have sex, they plan sex. Right. They plan to connect intimately with their partner. They might. And we wouldn't say, oh, you have sex every day, that's crazy. You shouldn't do that. That's problematic. In fact, like, we kind of encourage people, we shame them into not having enough sex with their partner. Which I also think is bullshit. So I think that there are ways to engage in porn in ways that make you feel good. Cause that's what it's meant to do.

[Rachel Lindley]

I gotta be honest, listening to this conversation, I feel like we all need sex therapy. And for different reasons. Like as I'm listening to, you know, like maybe yours is porn or whatever, just freed something in you just to hear, I guess, the non judgmental way and just like a different way to look at what it is to watch porn. Just like hearing the conversation with you. For me, even though I talk about the liberation of writing about it and talking about it. I would be lying if I was like, it's still. Purity culture. Doesn't still impact that for me.

[Camille Lewis]

What do you think it was like saying to you as you heard us speaking? What was purity culture saying to you?

[Rachel Lindley]

Do you think, oh, that it's totally wrong and not the pleasure part of it, just wrong to watch people. And I'm not above it. I've obviously watched porn. I'm just saying there's a guilt that I would feel if I finish watching it. Just like, oh, I should be watching these people do this thing, or put their bodies out here in this way. And obviously there's a freedom, and they're doing it and they're working, and there's nothing judgmental about it. But the guilt from the purity culture is like, this is wrong. You shouldn't be doing it. Or there are many sermons that, you know, I've been to that where I. Pastor of my church talked about his own addiction. Yeah, he called it addiction. His own addiction to it. And how, you know, it was wrong and how he was using it in a way to unwind and everything in a way to kind of tell us we shouldn't be doing it as well. So I just think about those things, and I just think maybe we all need a little bit of sex therapy in our life. That's what I'm taking away from this.

[Camille Lewis]

Well, I think it's. I'm sure that a lot of people can relate to what your experience is of listening to this and are probably like, wait, what? Like. And, you know, I've had people like, you're supposed to be a therapist, and you're telling people it's okay to do these things. And I'm like, well, yes, of course I want people to feel good and connected to themselves. And a lot of times, like, watching porn or masturbating or touching yourself or looking up something else that you haven't explored before just, like, helps you figure out more about yourself. It's education. It can be. And I think that it's important to connect with yourself and connect with your erotic self and be curious about what types of porn turn you on and what types scare you. And there's so much conversation to be had from that. Cause then you could have conversations with your friends about, like, I watched this porn. I really liked it. I really didn't like it. It made me uncomfortable. And they might be like, oh, I watch that all the time, or that sounds really weird, or whatever. Then we're all talking about It. We're all in community, and I really think that talking about porn and sex makes consent more possible.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, say more about that.

[Camille Lewis]

Because I think that we are so conditioned to think that sex happens this way. And you should like, this. Or this is what it means to say no to something, and this is what it means to say yes to something, which we don't really have a lot of language for. Like, I think especially for most people, most people who identify as women is like. Or been socialized as women. It's like the lie there and take it type of mentality that you've kind of been told implicitly and explicitly. Sex is for CIS men to feel pleasure. It's for them to come and for them to feel good, and for you to. If you feel good, maybe. But I think the more you're talking about it and the more that if you were sharing the type of sex that you had with one of your homegirls, and she was like, whoa, wait, did. Do you like that? Even if that's where you get asked if you like it, if it wasn't your partner, and then she might be like, I don't know. It was kind of weird. I'd be like, okay, maybe you don't want to see that person again. Maybe you want to talk to that person and tell them that you didn't really like what you guys just did. Let's have these conversations so that it's more possible to access conversations about consent.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. I don't think I can go back to the porn life, only because I'm so much more productive now. You know, it was productive. I was. I was really into life, you know, was. I was on the message boards and the whole nine, you know, just trying to figure out the new scenes, new technologies, new production companies.

[Rachel Lindley]

Sure.

[Van Lathan]

It was a hobby. It was a.

[Camille Lewis]

It was going to say, that sounds like a hobby.

[Van Lathan]

It was a legit. It was a hobby.

[Camille Lewis]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

It was a hobby.

[Camille Lewis]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

Shout out to all my fellow travelers out there. I will say this, though. This is something that, like, there is a. And I'll ask you about this specifically as the last question about pornography. There is a part you must eat breakfast burrito before you come in. Okay. This is gonna be a new room. There is a part of the industry that is incredibly corrosive. And the more you know about it, the more you learn about it. You start seeing performers that come into the industry, they're dead. Later, you start seeing people that, you know, really are treated poorly, and then that becomes a part of the Thing to where you wonder what the cost of your pleasure is on somebody else, particularly as you get older. Because you get older, but the new budding star is the same age. They're always 21, 22, 23, sometimes 19. And you just start to go, wow, like. And that changes things a little bit. Is as you're watching porn or as you're indulging into something like that, that might be healthy for you, but is it healthy to indulge in something in an industry that is sometimes usury and unhealthy?

[Camille Lewis]

Well, I think that what you're talking about is like where your values alignment is. And when you think about values alignment, if it feels important for you to watch content where the performers are a certain age or a certain race or a certain demographic, can you imagine a world where that exists?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Camille Lewis]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

So blacktouch.com then.

[Camille Lewis]

And there's so many ways to have ethical porn and ethical porn sites.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Do you know them?

[Camille Lewis]

I do.

[Van Lathan]

Blacktouchy.com.

[Camille Lewis]

Yeah, I do.

[Van Lathan]

It's like real black people having real black sex.

[Camille Lewis]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Like I said, I'm off of the game. But if I was in the game, if I was still in the game, that's like, it's good, clean porn.

[Camille Lewis]

Right. And so if that exists and if that feels important for your pleasure, then I think that that is something really wonderful to explore. And a lot of times people watch porn and don't want to have that type of sex. Like, it's really common actually for women to watch more like what's considered hardcore violent porn. Like, they might watch more gangbangs, they might watch more like deep Throat or hardcore anal or something. And it could be I want it here, I want it or cnc, which is like consensual, non consensual, also called like rape porn. It's common that people fantasize about things. Even if they think this is gross, this is disgusting. It doesn't have to be like, I watch a gang bang. I want to get. I. I want to get gang banged. It could just be like, I want to watch this, I want to come and then I'm done with it. So you might watch this and be like, okay, the, the performers in this porn are younger. I don't want to date somebody this age. I don't want to have sex with somebody this age. This is what I'm watching. And it can live in my relationship with porn. That's for most porn.

[Van Lathan]

So moving off of that, I wanna have a conversation that talks a little bit more about or ask you what you think about, specifically men here, because I'll say this. My relationship to sex, early on, as much as it was formed by my mother's openness and her intelligence and her willingness to have any conversation with me. Right. My mom was just. Sometimes I paint her as a free spirit, but she was down to talk to you, even if it was to shock you. My father, who we've talked extensively about on this podcast, is almost fucking his podcast. But his relationship was different. You accessed your manhood. Part of it was through sex, part of it was through whether or not a woman wanted to sleep with you. Now, there was a certain care that he would want you to put into that. He would be like, there's a thing you have to care for a woman. You have to take away her reasons not for her to not want to have sex with you. Right. That was his thing. Like, don't give her a reason to not want to have sex with you. How, as an older man, do I teach ethical and responsible sexual attitudes to younger men? Like, is there a blueprint, Is there a way that we should re. Educate ourselves to re. Educate young boys and young girls? But to me, I'm saying young boys because, you know, I talk to them. I mentor the young boys.

[Camille Lewis]

What do you think you would have wanted to know?

[Van Lathan]

Oh, good question. I've never actually thought about this. I would've just wanted to have a conversation about sex itself and not about cocksmanship or game, which is what my dad gave me.

[Rachel Lindley]

Right?

[Camille Lewis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

I just wanted to have a conversation. Cause, like, I remember the first time I was in the seventh grade and I saw a bra strap and it blew my mind. I saw a bra strap on the girl, blew my mind. I was like, it's titties behind there. Like, she actually has titties for real. Titties are not just on tv. Titties are on the bus with me. And I thought about that the whole way home. And I really, what I wanted to go home and go to my dad was like, dad, can we just have a conversation about, like, titties?

[Camille Lewis]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

And I don't feel like that was going to happen in that situation. It might have, but when we talked about sex, we didn't talk about that. It was either a laugh, a wink and a nod, him having fun with his brothers, or it was about, this is how you get a girl to have sex with you. So my curiosity would have been more about just stuff that I saw for him to kind of break it down.

[Camille Lewis]

Yeah. So you're asking about comprehensive sex education. And that is definitely something that we can all have continually with ourselves at our ages now and to younger people and talking about sex for not just also like the abstinence only conversations or like the fear based conversations, which is like how to not get pregnant, how to not get an sti, how to be afraid of sex. So it sounds like you just wanted to know what it is.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, a little bit more.

[Camille Lewis]

And I think that that's really great because a lot of us, it was just like, don't have sex, don't have sex, don't have sex and then have sex and be good at it. Rather than this is what bodies look like, this is what things might smell like, this is what bodies might do. I think like, this is what different types of vulvas look like. This is what different types of penises look like. This is how long erections might last. This is what an orgasm is. Like things that you can just talk about and kids might ask you or younger people might ask you and you might not know the answer and that's okay. And then it's finding the answer together.

[Rachel Lindley]

I would say on the flip side, for me, if I was asking for women, it's, well, one, if you were asking me the question, what would I have wanted to know? I would have not wanted sex to be tied to religion because it very much so was. And guilt and shame and fear. And the other thing, even if you don't have the religious aspect, I feel is for women it's very romanticized of when you have it the first time, it is like stars are gonna start shooting up and you know, like fireworks and it's gonna be this most amazing, beautiful thing. And that person that you give it to, like a fairy tale, is that's who you're gonna be tied to for the rest of your life. And I would've wanted to know the reality of it. So like almost, I guess fans question the same way. But for women, how do we combat that? Or how do you have those conversations? And maybe the question too is, you know, for me, sorry, I'm giving you a lot. But for me, I didn't get it at home, so I sought it with my friends. It was like, well, let me just go to my friends to get it or teach me, you know, like how to do this or like, what is this? You know, and that's not always great either. So should it be taught in school? Would be the next question to that as well?

[Camille Lewis]

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. If it's taught in A comprehensive way that also talks about, you know, pleasure, gender identity, sexuality, all of those things.

[Van Lathan]

You believe, all that should be taught in school.

[Camille Lewis]

Absolutely, absolutely. From. And, like, the way you can talk about consent and things like that is you can talk about that from kids, little kids, you know, if you want to give somebody a hug or not, that's a conversation about consent. But to your point, the tie to purity, culture and, like, your virtue and big words of things like that, or losing your virginity, which has its own weight to it, and then you think about how you've disappointed people, and I think that that is what comes along with it for a lot of women and girls is like, what does this mean about me now that I have done this? And, you know, the difference between shame and guilt, which I might be familiar with, is shame is that I am something bad, and guilt is that I've done something bad. And so shame is like, you then feel like, I am disgusting. I am not lovable. Nobody will want me. I'm broken, I'm used goods, all of those, like that language. And I think that for women and for girls, I would just want people to feel like your sexuality is yours to do with what you want. And that might include not having sex. That might include having a bunch of sex. That might include, you know, talking with people about it. That might not. But I think, like, understanding that your sexuality actually has very little to do with your religion.

[Van Lathan]

Wow. Camille Lewis, do you have a book?

[Camille Lewis]

I don't have a book. I should.

[Rachel Lindley]

You should.

[Camille Lewis]

All right, I will get right on it.

[Van Lathan]

Shame. I'm telling you.

[Rachel Lindley]

I know you do so. And I want to give you the opportunity to talk about what else you do too. Um, we talked a lot about sex. Just because it's been a topic of conversation, we have. We come from different places, we have different takes. He's a guy, I'm a girl. All these different things. Our audience is very involved with, you know, our. Our takes as well. Just thought it would be really great. But you, what, talk about the other things that you offer as well.

[Camille Lewis]

Yeah, absolutely. Also, talking about sex is great. I could do it all day, so no worries.

[Rachel Lindley]

Getting more comfortable with it.

[Camille Lewis]

Yeah, you look really comfortable with your hands crossed.

[Rachel Lindley]

No, I just said that this is a new position for me. I normally have my shoes off and my legs crossed.

[Van Lathan]

You said what? It's a new what?

[Camille Lewis]

Here you go.

[Van Lathan]

She's losing it up, guys.

[Rachel Lindley]

No, no, no, no.

[Van Lathan]

Just in time for summer, fellas.

[Rachel Lindley]

Wow.

[Van Lathan]

Just in time for summer. Doing the Lord's work. Hot girl. Sorry for Rach, but no. You were saying?

[Camille Lewis]

Yeah. So I helped to run a private practice and it is mostly focused on queer and sex therapy population. So a lot of intersectional identities, identity work, relationship work, a lot of sex therapy. And I also teach at Pepperdine. I teach human sexuality to the master's program where I did my master's. So.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, religious school.

[Camille Lewis]

It is a religious school.

[Van Lathan]

The Waves religious school. And what is it like teaching sex ed at a religious school?

[Camille Lewis]

It's not great. It's okay because I don't teach it at the undergrad level. I don't even think that they would allow it. But the human sexuality course is only one unit. It's five weeks rather than a full semester. So it even like institutionally teaches you that this isn't important. And every time I teach it, all the students are always like, wait, why don't we get more of this?

[Rachel Lindley]

Of course.

[Camille Lewis]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Camille Lewis, thank you for joining us on Higher Learning. We're going to continue to talk about sex.

[Camille Lewis]

Yeah. And maybe celebrate your re. Entry into the pond. I don't think I can.

[Rachel Lindley]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

I've made promises, all right? I don't think I can. Plus, like I said, I'm getting a lot more done. And so. And so, you know, I don't think. I think I can't buy. I can tell you what, I can look back at my time much more favorably now. You freed me, you've opened me up. And just like Rachel this summer, fellas, right here, we're going to do pop the balloon.

[Camille Lewis]

Okay?

[Van Lathan]

Camille, thanks for joining us.

[Camille Lewis]

Thank you so much.

[Van Lathan]

All right, that's enough. Happy birthday, Rach. Happy birthday, Miles. Happy birthday, Rach. What are you gonna do for the rest of the day?

[Rachel Lindley]

Um, I'm gonna kick it. I'm gonna go see sinners again. Sinners gonna have a nice home cooked meal. Just chill. Had the party this weekend. You showed up. They acted like it was. Everybody was excited. Everyone was like, where was Van? I'm not gonna tell you what he was doing because he was obviously prioritizing things over me. That's neither here nor there. He eventually came, it was a great time, had the party this weekend. And. Yeah, now just kick it. And it's Happy birthday to Kalika. We love Kalika.

[Van Lathan]

We went to our friend's house and she had peloton bikes everywhere.

[Rachel Lindley]

Cycle house. She's an OG in it.

[Quincy Avery]

Oh.

[Van Lathan]

People was wondering if she was slanging pelotons on the side.

[Rachel Lindley]

No, no, no, she's an og.

[Van Lathan]

OG for cycle.

[Rachel Lindley]

House, like, just cycling, period. Shout out to Nichelle Hines.

[Van Lathan]

Shout out to Nichelle. Like, it was. It was pelotons everywhere. Everybody was having fun. Everybody was in good mood.

[Rachel Lindley]

Great.

[Van Lathan]

I met how to make it in America finally.

[Rachel Lindley]

You met Brian, the good one.

[Van Lathan]

That n the man we love.

[Rachel Lindley]

Brian.

[Van Lathan]

How to make it in America was shout out to Brian. Shout out to Jamie, man. Shout out to Grant.

[Rachel Lindley]

You know you love our crew.

[Van Lathan]

I love y' all crew.

[Rachel Lindley]

And I'm so happy that you finally got to be a part of it. Now you gotta come back.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, that's it. All right. Take them caps off. And do not say stop learning.

[Rachel Lindley]

I'm van Life and J.R. i'm Rachel and Lizzie. Bye, guys.