‘Sinners,’ Jasmine Crockett, and the Black Panthers

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay
Episode: ‘Sinners,’ Jasmine Crockett, and the Black Panthers
Date: January 13, 2026
Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. and Rachel Lindsay

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Van and Rachel cover a spectrum of pressing topics in Black culture, politics, and sports. They kick off with industry recognition at the NAACP Image Awards, dive deep into the meaning of accolades such as the Golden Globes and Oscars, and unpack the critical response to films like "Sinners," "Hamnet," and "One Battle After Another." Further, the duo addresses recent controversies in political discourse—especially surrounding Jasmine Crockett's Senate run and the backlash to recent podcast commentary—as well as social justice issues like the recent ICE shooting in Minnesota and community-policing dynamics, including a viral Black Panthers video.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Podcast Awards & Industry Recognition

• NAACP Image Awards: The show is nominated for Best Podcast for the fourth consecutive time. Van and Rachel joke about their track record and encourage listeners to vote.
• Golden Globes & Podcasting: Discussion about award shows starting to recognize podcasts, the shifting landscape of media, and industry's tendency to lag behind audience sensibilities.
• Van on Industry Recognition:
  "It's very important to be nominated and respected by Black people… But, you know, we’re up against people who are pretty famous." [01:16]
• Comparisons to Grammys/Hip Hop: Award institutions often lag behind trends in culture.

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2. Golden Globes Breakdown & 'Sinners'

Recap of Major Winners

• Lists out categories and winners such as "Hamnet" (Best Motion Picture Drama), "K Pop: Demon Hunters" (Animated), "Sinners" (Cinematic Achievement), etc.

Reflections on 'Sinners' and Industry Bias

• Rachel: Surprised "Sinners" didn't win more, especially for Ryan Coogler as Best Director, but recognizes its box office impact.
• Van:
  "The best cinematic achievement I've seen all year… are 'Sinners' and 'F1'… but in terms of sitting in a theatre and being just emotionally enthralled and engrossed, 'Hamnet' is the best movie I saw all year." [12:44]
• Rachel:
  "You're really selling the movie… I don’t know if I want to cry that hard." [14:50]

Variety's Relationship with 'Sinners'

• Controversy around Variety’s coverage, with accusations of over-cynicism and subsequent “overcorrection” with recent coverage.

• Van:
  "The original tweet and framing of 'Sinners' success from Variety was so cynical… And to do that with a movie that was so ambitious… tested the presence of the industry…" [18:07] "Why it seems like once we're given a bad meal, the only thing that whiteness knows how to do is give us like a really sweet dessert." [20:28]

• Debate on the value and meaning of awards vs. actual impact and artistic achievement.

• Van:
  "Winning Academy Awards matters. It matters… those trophies are currency in this industry." [22:19]

On Representation and Storytelling

• Van argues that films centering Black struggle against systemic oppression (digestible to white audiences) tend to win acclaim, while movies centering Black complexity, joy, or existential struggle get less attention: "If the white vampires in 'Sinners' were slave masters… Sinners would win 10 Oscars." [26:49]

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3. Social Media Influencers & the Mirage of Perfection

• Discussion of Christie and Desmond Scott's viral couple brand and their divorce.

• Van and Rachel critique the hazards of monetizing relationships and the parasocial attachment audiences form with online personalities.

• Rachel:
  "When the line starts to blend—social media versus what's real—like, which one are you?" [44:57]

• Rachel shares her personal experience of not monetizing her relationship, the pressure for curated perfection, and the toll on authenticity.

• Van:
  "If you set yourself apart from people and you don't say, 'Hey, I'm just like one of you guys,' the opportunity to disappoint them is fourfold." [45:47]

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4. Minnesota ICE Shooting & Police Accountability

Incident Recap

• After an ICE agent (Jonathan Ross) fatally shot Renee Goode in Minneapolis, protests erupted and more federal agents were deployed.
• Discussion over the edited release of video footage and whether it was deployed to support the officer.

Media & Institutional Response

• Rachel:
  "How can you understand his intention but you can't understand the intention of her?" [57:44]
  • Highlights bias where law enforcement is given more “grace” in media and public discourse.

Accountability Hurdles

• Van outlines how federal intervention, Trump-appointed prosecutors, and bureaucratic barriers likely spell impunity for ICE: "ICE realizes that they are operating with absolutely, like, no oversight… That is a part of the plan. ICE is a strong man's militia." [66:31]

On Community Resistance

• Rachel spotlights examples of collective action in Minnesota—neighbors and bystanders intervening and recording ICE agents to protect community members.
• Van:
  "There's no way to respectably resist… If someone feels like they don't have to respect your rights, then you can't respect their authority, and that's it." [70:24]

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5. Black Panthers, Community Policing, and the Limits of Respectability

Viral Philly Panthers Video

• Black Panther members assert their legal rights when confronted by police, using sharp language and legal citations.
• Debate: Is it too harsh toward Black officers, or a necessary stance?

Reactions & Analysis

• Rachel: Supports the utility of knowing and asserting one's rights, but wonders if there’s value in trying to eventually build mutual understanding between Black officers and community. "Let's just say that they're good...Take that back to your law enforcement, call a town hall meeting… If the goal is to get on the same page, that's what should happen." [75:14]

• Van:
  "From a group like the police, respect invites victimization… There should be a stern and direct interrogation of 'what are you doing here?'" [77:00]

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6. Democratic Party Politics — Jasmine Crockett, Criticism, Identity, and Backlash

• Viral clip from the Las Culturistas podcast critiquing Jasmine Crockett's Senate chances (and favoring the less known James Talarico) prompts accusations of racism and misogyny.
• Van and Rachel debate the limits of what is “fair criticism,” the role of race/gender in analysis, and the internet’s tendency to leap to conclusions without nuance.

Notable Quotes

• Rachel:
  "You cannot jump to name-calling. It's not a smart argument… There are problems in what he said, but if you listen to it in the entire context… the meaning behind it is, hey, you can’t be so passionate—you have to vote for what’s gonna win." [94:27]

• Van:
  "We can protect Jasmine Crockett as a Black woman, and we should. We cannot protect her as a politician." [100:32]

  • Argues politicians should not be insulated from critique due to identity.

• Rachel:
  "We should be able to critique our politicians...You want them to be better, to know what they stand for, and that they're going to represent you..." [104:22]

Israel/Palestine as a Dividing Line

• They contrast Talarico’s and Crockett’s candidacies using their stances on Israel as a filter, with both critical that Talarico’s recent statements position him as a normative, centrist Democrat.

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7. Steve Nash, Capitalism, and Youth Basketball

Segment Overview ([132:55])

• Steve Nash critiques the pay-to-play structure of U.S. youth basketball and how commercialization undermines player development compared to subsidized community club models in Europe.

Broader Implications

• Van:
  "At its core, that is such an easily digestible criticism of gangster capitalism run amok… what Steve Nash is essentially saying is…the overall quality of basketball here is deteriorating because not everybody has access to the capital…" [134:11]

• Expansion on the “money religion” in America and how the capitalist mentality warps not only sports, but all social structures.

• Rachel:
  "He wanted to say that and get that out there and he did." [138:33]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• "Maybe I'm a socio empath." – Van Lathan, reflecting on his therapist calling him a sociopath [07:14]
• "If the white vampires in Sinners were slave masters…Sinners would win 10 Oscars." – Van Lathan [26:49]
• "When the line starts to blend: social media versus what's real—like, which one are you?" – Rachel Lindsay [44:57]
• "Respect invites victimization." – Van Lathan, on not showing too much deference to police [77:00]
• "We can protect Jasmine Crockett as a Black woman…We cannot protect her as a politician." – Van Lathan [100:32]

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Key Timestamps

• NAACP Image Awards/Podcasting Awards: [00:07–05:29]
• Golden Globes Recap/'Sinners' and Oscars Debate: [07:31–22:46]
• Industry Bias Against Black Films/Value of Awards: [21:20–30:28]
• Personal Movie Rankings & Criticism of Black Media Portrayals: [30:35–38:34]
• Influencers, Parasocial Relationships & Personal Experience: [39:04–51:27]
• ICE Shooting in Minnesota & Policing: [54:14–71:09]
• Philadelphia Black Panthers/Community Policing Debate: [71:09–85:01]
• Jasmine Crockett, Podcast Backlash & Democratic Politics: [85:15–129:15]
• Steve Nash & Critique of Capitalism via Basketball: [130:23–139:08]

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Tone & Style

Throughout, Van and Rachel maintain a candid, humorous, and occasionally sharp tone. They blend personal anecdotes, cultural critique, and political analysis, often pushing each other for deeper reflection and welcoming disagreement. Their banter mixes seriousness with levity, inviting listeners into a nuanced but accessible conversation.

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Summary Prepared For:
Listeners wanting an incisive, witty, and thoughtful breakdown of current Black culture, politics, and sports—plus an inside track on the movies, controversies, and debates shaping 2026.

Transcript

[Unidentified Speaker 1]

Foreign.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on.

[Rachel]

It's Ivan Lathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel and Lindsay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So as we sit down, the NAACP Image Awards are out. We're nominated for best podcast yet again. I think this.

[Rachel]

That's four years in a row.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Is it three or four?

[Rachel]

It's four. I'm pretty sure it's four.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Four. Four L's in a row.

[Rachel]

Look, don't. Don't manifest the fourth one already that we already out, Guys. It's a voting thing and we don't do a good job of reminding you guys to go out and vote. You got to go out and vote listening to the podcast. Share it with other people. You like what you hear. We're four years nominated. We've lost three times in a row. It's a very good podcast, I will say, but we also deserve.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We talked to some podcasts. I look.

[Rachel]

Yeah, you shit on LeVar Burton. No, no. Remember, you cursed him out.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You were like, Lavar Burton.

[Rachel]

No, I know you like him. He won. He beat us the first time. And you, you know, he can't be lavar.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Lavar got me through the pandemic. Have y' all ever listened to his podcast? There was a podcast where he would read short stories. What was the name of the podcast?

[Rachel]

I think that is that. What?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Fantastic. Like a great, great, legitimately great podcast. All right, so shout out to the NAACP Awards. Very important to be nominated and respected by black people. El blacks. Hopefully we go to the award show this year. Maybe we will, maybe we won't. Look, this is the thing. If you guys want to see us win the award, you gotta vote. You vote for the NAACP Awards. Vote for Higher learning. Really? Just like if everybody voted, we would probably win. Because I'm. I wonder if this is a high turnout thing. It's probably a low turnout voting situation, you know, but at the same time, we're up against, like, people who are pretty famous and let's be real, it's.

[Rachel]

Probably not going to happen category, but we should try Golden Globes. I don't even vote. I don't even vote for us. I forget to do it. Golden Globes last night. Yes.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Amy Poehler from the Ringer wins. Shout out to Amy Poehler. Shout out to Alaya. Shout out to Kaya Aleyah, everybody. Kya. Kaya, everybody who makes the show that we know over here. Good. Hang with Amy Poehler. But, you know, that's a show. That is a show with famous people and celebrities and stuff like that. And podcasting is something that a lot of people don't pay a lot of attention to. I'm serious.

[Rachel]

What do you mean they don't pay a lot of attention to the industry? Like, oh, the industry doesn't pay, but people do. That's why they are having to start to recognize.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

If I was going to do a Golden Globes nominee of podcasts, it would have looked completely different.

[Rachel]

I think most people who really like take in podcasts and really listen to it would have a different list now.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Good hang is a fantastic pot. Oh yeah, it's a good pod. It's a lot of fun. But if you. It's kind of like podcasting at these award shows is. It's kind of like. And that's not to say we have a better podcast than anybody in the NAACP honorees with us. I'm not saying that at all, but I'm saying it is something that I don't feel like a lot of these places have as strong a grasp on as they do other things. It's kind of like hip hop at the Grammys.

[Rachel]

No, I mean it's. They're just behind. A lot of times the industry can be behind when it comes to these things, but they're starting to recognize it. I mean, Golden Globes, it took them this year. NAACP has been doing it for four years.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But they, The NAACP is better about it than the Globes. Very. They. The podcasts are in that category. Normally podcasts that people are really listening to and enjoying and stuff like that. The Globes, it's the first time and.

[Rachel]

It'Ll be interesting to see how it is. Like they don't have political. They like, they don't want to rock the boat. You can tell who does it. The Globes. So I would be interested as it goes on who they put in there because a lot of people do consume their news and their politics and that kind of information, current affairs from podcasts and they did have up first in there. But I just wonder if they'll move towards inserting more of those podcasts in or will they be more interview celebrity led podcasts?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, you also don't want to nominate any podcasts if you're the Globes that are gonna cause too much of a stir.

[Rachel]

Right? Yeah, I know.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. So if you. What I mean is that you put Rogan up there, people gonna be like, why the fuck you putting Rogan up there? If you put other podcasts up there, people gonna be like, why are these fucking podcasts nominated? They hurt people. Or like put out misinformation. It's gonna be.

[Rachel]

But maybe they do what NAACP does where they have categories of podcasts. It's not just in one. They separate it like they do their TV shows and movies for the Globes.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, the naacp, like I said, they understand the scope of black cultural interests and so they try to in these different nominating categories, like hit those interests. I also want to say the AFCO Awards, they want. They wanted us. They want us to present at the AFCO Awards. You and I.

[Rachel]

When's that?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's February 8th, Super bowl weekend. That's Super Bowl Sunday.

[Rachel]

I won't be there.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, Rachel's not coming to the Africa Awards.

[Rachel]

You. Well, first off, I'm just hearing this from you. I'm going.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

They wanted me to.

[Rachel]

I'll be in San Francisco.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, you're going to the actual game?

[Rachel]

I'll be there for the weekend, but by the time I usually fly back on Sunday, so.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, that's true. You normally fly. Cuz you do the whole super bowl.

[Rachel]

Week and then, you know, I throw the party at the house.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, it's that morning. I think it's the morning of Super Bowl Sunday. I think it is.

[Rachel]

It's going to be tough.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's what Nick told me. Nick May told me this. I'm going to do it.

[Rachel]

Wait, it's Nick?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, it's Nick and it's Gil. It's Afka.

[Rachel]

See, when it's Nick, I'm like, well.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Got to do these things for Nick. Nick asked today is why we wear the uniform. Abc tonight, the rookie returns to ensure.

[Rachel]

The safety of all Angelenos.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Try not to mess it up. I'll do my best. But don't do your best. Do my best. And for the first time ever, this is a global operation. It's an international sting. LAPD has agreed to help the FBI track down terrorist targets. Nothing like a day in the job.

[Rachel]

To remind you how quickly life can change. Get out of there.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The rookie season premiere tonight, 109 Central on ABC. Next day for Hulu subscribers. You gotta do it. Okay, let's start with the Golden Globes then. Oh, before we get into the Golden Globes, Krausman said that I'm a sociopath.

[Rachel]

No, he did not say that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He said I told Krausman some things. Shout out to Krausman.

[Rachel]

I just want you guys to know we share therapists.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We share therapists.

[Rachel]

Cause I need them to understand why you're just saying about a first name. We share therapist. I don't know if that's good for us or not.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We share a therapist. Krausman. I've started going back, and he looked at me, he's like, yeah, there's some sociopathy there. Have you ever thought about that? I was like, no, but it makes a lot of sense.

[Rachel]

Maybe I was. I don't talk about you in therapy, but maybe I should. Maybe I should go in there. Wow, that's a big. You need to unpack that because.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, I can't unpack it.

[Rachel]

You have two big.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I have to unpack it with him.

[Rachel]

I don't know. Not with me, but I mean, like, you have such a big heart that, like, to me, that is something that is lacking of a sociopath. So I just.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Maybe. Maybe. Maybe I'm a socio empath.

[Rachel]

Okay, let's come up with something new. A new terminology here.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Socio empath.

[Rachel]

You know, the way you did spin it, though, that's something a sociopath would do.

[Unidentified Speaker 1]

Oh, God damn.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm so fucked up. Somebody help me. Okay. The Golden Globes were last night. Everybody looked great. You know who. You know what? You know what I liked about the Golden Globes? I saw niggas that I know on the red carpet doing big things.

[Rachel]

Like who? Like, let's shout them out.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Justin Sylvester.

[Rachel]

Justin. He kills it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Evans. Scott Evans is his name.

[Rachel]

Scott Evans.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Scott Evans. Justin Sylvester and Scott Evans. These are guys I was just with. I was just with Scott Evans at the Spotify party.

[Rachel]

We shut it down. Yeah, we shut it down.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I went home. Y' all shut it down. By the way, I heard some shit.

[Donnie]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I heard some shit. Y' all shut it down. I was at the house.

[Rachel]

Oh, God. Everybody had left, y'.

[Donnie]

All.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm so washed. Like, I was wearing my cowboy boots, and I couldn't put my. My custom orthotics into the cowboy boots.

[Rachel]

Why?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Because they wouldn't fit. Okay. So that ended my night.

[Rachel]

Yeah, cowboy boots are tight. That's tough. That's tough. That's tough. Also, it was a lot of talking. Like, I just. Sometimes at those parties, there's just so much talking, I just want to dance and float around and. Which we did do towards the end. Towards the end. Me, Kika, Scott, Melvin, leaving some people out.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But that's okay. When I don't tell. No personal business on the podcast. No personal business. But I saw Scott. I saw Justin Sylvester, I saw Nichelle.

[Rachel]

Michelle Turner, Kevin Frazier.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Kevin Frazier. People I know doing great stuff. It was. It's a very. I saw a lot of black people interviewing on the red carpet. I love that type of shit. All right, quickly down. The winners for best motion picture drama. Hamnet won. Okay. Won over Frankenstein. It was just an accident. The Secret Agent. Sentimental Value. And Sinners. Best motion picture, musical or comedy. One battle after another. Blue Moon, Begonia, Mari Supreme. No other choice. Nouvelle Vague. I haven't seen that one yet. Best motion picture Animated. That was the easiest one to call. K Pop. Demon Hunters. Cinematic and box office achievement. Sinners 1. It's an interesting category which combines the whole thing. Avatar, F1. K pop. More of a box office Y type A.

[Rachel]

Newer category.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Newer category. Motion picture, Non English language. Secret agent. Best actress, Jesse Buckley. Motion picture drama. Best actor, Motion picture drama. Wagner, Morph. Secret Agent. I have not seen the Secret Agent yet. I have not seen.

[Rachel]

No, I haven't either, but I hear it's great.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Most of these movies I've seen that one I have not seen a couple others. Handful, maybe like three of them. Three of the big ones. I've got to see them in the next couple of weeks. Of course, in that category, Michael B. Jordan was nominated. The Rock was nominated. Joel Edgerton was nominated for Train Dreams. Great movie. Jeremy Allen, White Springsteen. Delivered Me from Nowhere. Terrible fucking movie.

[Rachel]

That's what everybody says.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And then Best actress in a motion picture, musical or comedy, Rose Byrne. If I had legs, I'd kick you. Best actor in a motion picture, musical or comedy. Timothee Chalamet. Marty Supreme. So he has won that one. And then, of course, Teyana Taylor won Best supporting actress in any motion picture. She won for one battle after another. Got up there and was very charming in her acceptance speech.

[Rachel]

She's always charming.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Very charming in her acceptance speech. Best actor in a supporting role was Skelling Skarsgard. Stellan Skarsgard. Should I say for sentimental value, Best director, Paul Thomas Anderson. Best screenplay, Paul Thomas Anderson. A lot of people thought that was a little bit of a. Of a. Of an upset score. Luke, wig for Centers. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Original song, K Pop, Demon hunters, Television. We can get into all, basically. Look at that. All of this stuff is there. The studio One Big. The Pit One Big. And TV and all of that stuff.

[Rachel]

Adolescence One Huge was a fantastic show. Sweeping adolescence is. So is the Pit.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The Pit's great.

[Rachel]

The Pit's really good.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Pit's great. Adolescence is limited. The Pit is an episodic. It's coming back. Or maybe it's all.

[Rachel]

Yeah, no, it's just. The premiere just happened.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Any surprises last night for you?

[Rachel]

Um, I think I expected more from Sinners. Just Overall nominated a lot. Won for an award category that we said was newer, that a lot of people felt like it was a throwaway award. I don't want to take that away from them just because of what they did obviously, accomplish at the box office. At a time when people are saying they're not going to the movie theaters, people aren't. Actors aren't drawing names, big names, and actors and actresses aren't drawing people to the theater. That is a huge accomplishment. They did what people think, thought they couldn't. So I don't want to count that as a throwaway, But I really thought that Ryan Coogler, especially because people kept mentioning him, too, in their acceptance speeches. Ryan Coogler for Best Director. I thought. I was a little surprised. I thought that. That he could win that and then original screenplay. Some of the other movies I haven't seen as much as you, so, like, I can't really comment on specifically of, like, Jesse Buckley winning in Hamnet. I haven't seen that yet. And I was going to until you told me about how devastating it is. And I just. I'm not in a place where I want to see that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So. The best cinematic achievement I've seen all year, Actually, the two best cinematic achievements I've seen all year are sinners and F1.

[Rachel]

I knew you were going to say that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

F1 was that shit. Give a fuck what y' all talking about. But in terms of sitting in a movie and being just emotionally enthralled and engrossed in what was going on, Hamnet's the best movie that I saw all year.

[Rachel]

But it's also supposed to do that for you.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, it's. It's. There's a. I can't say that. I can't say that it's two different types of movies, but sitting there, being just destroyed and completely connected to characters and what was on the screen, Hamnet was just. It was. It was amazing. Now, it's not as perfectly constructed a movie as Sinners or even one battle after another, because there's a whole first hour of Ham there where they're kind of just kind of putting you into the world and connecting you to William Shakespeare and his lady and all of that stuff played by Jesse Buckley. But at the end of that movie, I just had to sit there and contend with my feelings for a second ugly cry. At the end of it, you just felt for the family. And the movie also tells the story of. Of catharsis through art and how it feels sometimes to deal with things in the way that Shakespeare dealt with them, which was through art and the Ministry of Scene and then being in connection and relationship to people who just don't live in that world, People who live in a world where the art can't save you, expression can't save you. Like, the thing is the thing. Family is the thing. Taking care of people is the thing. The thing. The world is the thing. And so that relationship between an artist and how they deal with stuff and what they need to do in their life and the family that that artist has, that's not into that, is pretty profound. At the end, you know, they kind of bring it all together.

[Rachel]

I mean, you're really selling the movie.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's a fantastic movie.

[Rachel]

I just have to sit with it. I don't know. I don't want to cry like that. And I cry in movies very easily. I just think it's interest interesting too, because there's so much that wasn't known about Hamnet, even like, what's written. So they had to take a lot of liberty. I know this based off a book, but they had to take a lot of liberty with this movie. And then the way that you're describing and how they did it, I think that's pretty cool. Without knowing much about Shakespeare's actual son.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Since he passed away.

[Rachel]

Passed away so young, I didn't want to spoil it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But now Variety, speaking of sinners, Variety has said that Centers will get nominated for 15 Academy Awards.

[Rachel]

Projected.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's projected. These are the predictions from Variety. Fifteen Academy Awards. They predicted wins for Best picture, which would be, in my opinion, fantastic. Best Picture wins for Autumn, for Best Cinematographer, who we've had on this podcast. I asked her if she wanted to come back. I said, I reached out to Autumn. I said, listen, higher Learning podcast, we discovered you, so it's only fair that you come back. And she said, yes, but at a later time, when she's, you know, all over the place.

[Rachel]

Yeah, she's in the thick of it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's award season right now. But I think also they predicted wins for Sinners in Best Original Screenpl, which is a category with Sentimental Value, Weapons, Mari supreme and Blue Moon. And they say that Sinners will probably take that one home. So they predicted, I think, 15 nominations, wins. They predicted for screenplay, for Best picture, for cinematographer, and for casting too, which. It's awesome that casting is a category now. The casting directors of America fought for a long. Casting directors of this industry fought for a long time for what they contribute to movies to be recognized by the Academy. And I Think that's awesome that it's being recognized.

[Rachel]

When you saw this tweet for Variety, right? Variety's getting a lot of attention, obviously because of their original tweet about sinners that people to this day are still bringing up. You saw Chelsea Handler bringing up at the Critics Choice Awards, totally called out Variety for how ridiculous their tweet was regarding sinners and how biased it. Do you feel like when you get this tweet that you just read that they're Projected to get 15 Oscar nominations and have an all time record from movies all the way from like All About Eve to, you know, as recent as like a la la Land. If you consider that recent. Do you feel like they're doing this as damage control? It's a thought of mine. I'm not saying that they won't get it, but it just seems like we've got to almost overcompensate because there were some other tweets that I saw people bringing up with Variety that they continue to kind of put talk about sinners because it feels like they're doing damage control from the original tweet and continually continuously getting called out on it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, there's certainly some of that. I looked at this and I laughed. I think a lot of people did. But, you know, I guess the question is, how do you want it, right? What do you like? What is it that you want? The original tweet and framing of Sinner's success from Variety was so cynical, it was so overly cynical that a lot of people were like, what the hell is going on here? And to do that with the movie, that was so ambitious, that in a lot of ways tested the presence of the industry, meaning what the industry is right now in terms of what it'll be from the business part of the way Ryan packaged the film, the proximity media packaged the film, the fact that the film is both genre film, a horror movie, and then also a love letter to the black inhabitants and the non black inhabitants of the Delta and just an investigation that so many things. To see all that and to see them react to it so cynically was like, what the y' all on? Like what? Like what are y' all doing? Like, why y' all doing? Like, every time something does cut through and manages to hit this critical mass and this, this critical appreciation and this box office stuff, we kind of kind of get smacked down by somebody sitting behind the desk writing shit like, what the fuck is this? What is this? And so there was, I think, appropriate examination of why they did that. But this is always what happens on the other side of it. What happens on the other side of it is not like a deep conversation about what the fuck went wrong is what happens on the other side of it is here, niggas, like, here it is like. And that to me bothers me. It bothers me that we shout out to Michael Harriet. I went on this podcast and we had a conversation about this whole thing. It bothers me about why we can never talk about the thing. Why it seems like once we're given a bad meal, the only thing that whiteness knows how to do is give us like a really sweet dessert. Like, okay, this is what you want.

[Rachel]

So is the 15 nominations that for you?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, no, no, no. The 15 nominations, they don't even know what the academy's gonna do. They have no fucking clue. I don't know whether or not it's gonna get. I think Variety Project, first Of all, the 15 nominations also has to do with the fact that casting is in here and that wasn't a category before. So there are some different things that. But I don't know if Variety knows any of this stuff, but the fact that this seems like an overcorrection, that's what I mean, is sometimes annoying to me because what I think people really wanted was maybe them to be up front about the thinking that went into that. Whether or not, or even if they decided that they needed to defend themselves. Just like a real conversation about why the framing around that headline and that thinking towards centers, like why that happened.

[Rachel]

If they are nominated for 15 Oscars and they set this record, is it a sweet dessert that they get the nominations and don't have, like, and have one or two wins? Like, is it. Because that's another way I was looking at it. I mean, I'm using your sweet dessert example, but I looked at it as if they do get these 15 nominations, does it look bad that they were. They set a record, an all time record in nominations at the Oscars, but then barely win anything? It like it. Does it cancel it out? I don't even know if you can answer it. Just a thought. These are thoughts that popped up when I saw this, this tweet. Like, is it going to, Is it going to look bad that, yeah, they got all these nominations, but then you don't reward them with, with much when it comes to actually winning. Is it an. Is it. Should they just be grateful that they set a record? Are you giving this to them? Again? These are just all the thoughts in my head. Are you giving this to them to say that they set a record, but you're not going to award them with the trophy.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You know what a difficult thing is to do for me and for people at large? It's difficult to not care about something that you shouldn't care about, but that actually matters. Like you shouldn't care about it, but it matters. Here are the two things that are up against each other. Winning Academy Awards matters. It matters.

[Rachel]

You know this firsthand, quick story on that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So we are trying to do Two Distant Strangers. I'm sure I've told everyone this. We're asking at the outset from people, based upon a brilliant script by Trayvon and the fact that we have Martin and Desmond, Martin Desmiro and Dirty Robber working with us. We're asking people for $150,000 right now. Movie ended up costing way more money than that.

[Rachel]

It always does.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And I ended up having to put, like, a lot of my own money, obviously, into it. Me and Trayvon are the ones who were first money in on it, right? So we're asking people for, like, $150,000, $200,000 to do the script. We're sending the script around. We're talking about the time and all of that and why it's important and all that that you got to do when you asking different people for money. This is a very important movie, and we can't get the money from the places that we're sending the script out to. We can't get the money. So we change strategy, and I put money in, Trayvon puts money in, and then we start going to get money from people that we know. We run the money, and we end up making a movie. That's how you should make your movie. If you have the network, by the way, to make a short. Once the movie gets nominated for an Academy Award, the movie then gets bought. The movie gets bought for millions of dollars. When I say legitimately millions of dollars. Like it was. It was funny on the backside of it. I remember walking down the street and thinking, they could have had the film for 150 grand. They literally could have had it for 150 grand. There were people a lot of places that I asked for money that could have had that on. They didn't do it. But once the nomination came in, the nomination came in, and people were like, the movie's gonna win. And then it suddenly became worth millions of dollars.

[Rachel]

Would it have been millions just with the nomination if you had not won?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What do you mean?

[Rachel]

Cause it was. Was it bought before you won?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, it was bought when it got nominated.

[Rachel]

That's what I'm saying. Before you won.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So. Right. It was what? But I think the nomination is worth that much. But also the fact that this movie will probably win is worth that much. I'm saying all of this to say that those trophies are currency in this industry, those accolades are currency in this industry. More so than even the box office. Not even. Not more so than the box office. Nothing matters more than the business. But I'm saying sometimes as much like two distant strangers, you could not put that in theaters and make any money off of it. It's a short, but it's still worth X amount of millions of dollars to Netflix. Like as Academy Award winning short. Right. Because saying that we won this many, we've been nominated for this much, this is a stamp of quality. So when we're having conversations about movies like Sinners and we're saying it doesn't matter if it's awarded or not, that's just not true. It does matter. Okay, it does matter. But for us, it can't. And that's the hard part. It matters. It matters. It matters in a real way. That recognition from the Emmys, from the Oscars, it matters. But for us, it can't matter. It really can't. Because all it does is center the voices and the power structures that I've never really understood the art that we do. And that is such a bitter pill to swallow. It can't matter. Because right now, if Sinners was those, If Sinners was. If the white vampires and sinners were slave masters and overseers, sinners would win 10 Oscars. If, if, if sinners, if you put sinners in a different situation.

[Rachel]

So you're saying you have to be a. It has to be a certain category to win.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What I'm saying is, is like if the sl. If everybody black and centers were slaves and all of a sudden the masters became vampires and we're trying to run and get the slaves and then the slaves overthrow the masters and then after that, it's one last scene where they walk out and I was like, well, what is we going to do now? We done killed everyone. We don't use the stake and then we didn't use Jesus to kill everyone. Sinners wins 10 Oscars. Those movies, those slave movies, those movies about. That are inherently about black struggle against systemic whatever. Those movies are kind of about whiteness. They're not directly about whiteness, but white people can understand them because it's black people struggling struggle against them and they Go. Aw, look, we can see it, recognize it, sure. And so those movies are easier for them to access, but films that are made, that are about black joy, black beauty, even black struggle. What about the black struggle of being disillusioned? Forget about the black struggle against what happened on the subway or racism. What about the black struggle of being disillusioned? What about the black struggle of not understanding your purpose? Like a movie. I keep saying it's like a nomad land or something like that, where a widow woman is out in the world trying to find who she is, trying to figure out, does Taraji get to do that? Does Regina hall get to do that? Does Regina King get to do that? Do they get to be ladies that are just out trying to find their purpose and stuff like that? Those movies, when they come to black people, when it comes to black people, they don't get it.

[Rachel]

So you're saying that they can only understand black people in one way? In certain ways.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm saying it's easier for them to understand it in that way. Even our movie.

[Rachel]

No, I know. We talked about it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Like, even. Even.

[Rachel]

It's about a struggle.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Our movie is about. Our movie is a creative and artistic interpretation of a loop that white people can understand. The police kill black people. We don't want to be thought of as that. So let's reward something that criticizes that. We don't want to be thought of as the slave masters, so let's reward something that criticizes that. They're in the middle there. But if it's just about us, if it's about these two brothers that come down back to where they're from and they're asking questions. Sinners is about black mysticism. Sinners is about black love. It's about black regret. It's about black entrepreneurship. Sinners is about Asian entrepreneurship. Sinners is all of these things. This is about black music, black culture, black expression. And I'm sorry, the movie is a brilliant expression of all those things, but there's a limit to their understanding of that.

[Rachel]

Interesting.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So we. You can't not care, but you have to not care. You have to. You have to watch the movie and be like, it's excellent, and it's amazing, and it's going to win big in places that people understand it. But you lying if you say you don't want to be at the Golden Globes. You don't want to be at the Oscars. You don't want to be at the critics choice. You lying if you say that. Don't Matter. You lying?

[Rachel]

Sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Tough.

[Rachel]

Yeah. And they're not. I'm just. I'm just asking these questions as I saw this tweet, and it made me.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Think of that, but what do you think? What do you like? Of all the movies that you've seen, what are the best films that you've seen this year?

[Rachel]

Well, because I've seen so many. I've seen so many films, literally, the only films that I've seen this year are wicked. F1.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay.

[Rachel]

Obviously, sinners.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay.

[Rachel]

Housemaid.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay. Let's do Rachel's Best Picture.

[Rachel]

Well, that's four. I'm sure there's something else that I've seen at home, but I saw those in theater.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so let's. What are those movies again?

[Rachel]

F1. Housemaid, Wicked, Sinners.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

These are Rachel's best pictures.

[Rachel]

There's gotta be something else.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So we're gonna know what we're gonna do before the Oscars come out. We're gonna do Rachel's Oscars.

[Rachel]

Oh, no. Oh, I saw one battle after another.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You saw one battle after another. So that's five.

[Rachel]

And I saw Begonia.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You saw. Look at you.

[Rachel]

I saw it at home, but I saw Begonia. I loved it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

See? Okay, so we're gonna.

[Rachel]

Because I love Jesse Plemons.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Jesse Plemons is the man.

[Rachel]

Like.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Jesse Plemons is the man. Yeah, yeah. Jesse Plemis is.

[Rachel]

So I see him in a movie and I'm like, it's great. It's gotta be great.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Jesse Plymouth is like, you're American. Yeah. Well, what kind of American? I'm like, oh, shit, this nigga. I'm scared he gonna kill these people. Okay, so of the movies that you saw, what are the best ones?

[Rachel]

Sinners.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Sinners is the best one you saw.

[Rachel]

Then Begonia.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Then Begonia.

[Rachel]

I just thought that movie doesn't even take place in that many different places. But the acting is so compelling. The emotion is so compelling. It takes you on a ride, even though there's not that movement like in the beginning and at the end. Yeah, I just. I just thought it was phenomenal. I was not expecting that. Then I would say one battle after another, then Wicked, then Housemate.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

How do you feel about the discourse over one battle after another? Perfidia. Beverly Hills is a character that I've criticized when I was talking on the big picture. Made a big. Got a big reaction from people. Tiana Taylor won for that portrayal. She won the Golden Globe.

[Rachel]

What was your criticism about?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

My criticism was that the. You know, not to rehash the Entire thing. But my criticism was that the movie treats not just revolutionaries, but black women with such callousness. The character was such a white man's fetish portrayal of a black woman that was hard for me to. To connect with it. And a lot of people said. A lot of people said. A lot of people agreed, but there have been some very strong, strong voices who have disagreed.

[Rachel]

Yeah, I haven't seen a lot of the discourse as far as comparing the two, but why are they comparing the two sinners in one battle after another? Is it because they feel like those are. Those are the two competitive ones to possibly win Best Picture, Best Original Screenplay, Best Director? Or is it because one battle after Another is considered a black movie?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Is it?

[Rachel]

I was thinking about this when you were talking, because, remember, we've had this conversation on the podcast. What makes. I mean, Sinners is without a doubt a black movie that's done. But remember, we were like, what makes a movie a black movie? Is it the director? Is it the starring actor? I don't think One Battle After Another is a black movie.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, I don't think it's a black movie at all. I think there's, like a. A theme there. The question is whether or not a movie that's directed by somebody who's not black can be a black movie. There's a question about theme, the black experience, black culture and all of that stuff. I think it's interesting to go movie by movie. One Battle After Another is not not a black movie. It's specifically.

[Rachel]

Sure, there's black storylines within.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It centers black women in a way. Well, not really.

[Rachel]

No, it doesn't.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It doesn't center black women at all. Look, there's a lady on Twitter that people have been sending me this, particularly the white guys that were mad that I criticized the movie. I said, I'm fucking with y', all, and her name is lxma. She goes. This expectation that every black female character must act as a moral arbiter or exemplary figure for black girls reflects internalized racism. They should be allowed the full range of complexity, which includes black being messy, flawed, or even evil. Fictional characters are not required to serve didactic purposes in order to be worth engaging with this lady. This black lady is right. And I take that criticism and examine it through the same lens that I chose to examine the movie through. She's right. I do feel like there is, on the other side of this, a criticism of the laziness and sometimes the one noteness in which white Hollywood portrays black characters, particularly black women. I Think that's something to be criticized and unpacked, but at the same time, like, we should not have to be. When we say that we're embarrassing ourselves or embarrassing. Who are we embarrassing ourselves in front of? What does the portrayal of these characters mean? What does it mean for us to center how. What we are or the essence of who we are in every single thing? How can I say this? It seems that whenever we criticize how black people are portrayed in the media or whatever, it seems like that is in some way us flogging ourselves. Like, we need these positive portrayals so that people will think on us in a positive way. We need these positive images because in some way that's gonna make people look at us positively. Right? And meanwhile, we hold ourselves to these standards. And I've talked about this. We hold ourselves to these standards that are oftentimes unrealistic. And we look down on each other if we don't meet a certain black standard of decency. Because we think it's up to you to present yourself in a better way. But the question always is, for whom?

[Rachel]

Yeah. No, no. I mean, the question definitely is for whom? I guess I understood the criticism that came with Teyana Taylor in this movie. I understood it, but I think you could also make the argument that she was a powerful character in the sense too. Like, yes, her power was taken away from her and she had to make a decision, but she made a decision. She made a decision to leave. She made a decision to. To, like, tell on the rest of the group. She made certain decisions within it. I could make an argument that she's. That she also was a very powerful character.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Interesting.

[Rachel]

I totally understand what people are saying, and I'm not saying that I disagree with it, but I also think that there was power in what she did. It was selfish. Powerful. It was selfish in what she did, but she made those decisions. She decided not to meet him when he came for flower. When he had her in the house. She used what she could to get out, to save herself. It was selfish, and I think sometimes it's hard to see that because you get lost in it. But she did what she needed to do, and there was power in that. Don't agree with it. I'm just saying. Interesting. I actually think that her role. Even though, again, I'm not necessarily saying I agree with the decisions made in it, I actually think it was a very powerful role.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Can we do a movie episode? We gotta come back to this. Can we do a movie episode? I'm interested to hear. I'M interested to hear what.

[Rachel]

And maybe because I saw it late, like I didn't see it the first week that it came out. So I had time to see what some of the criticism was. So I went in with a different lens. But I was expecting more than what I actually saw. And I was like, I actually can make an argument that there's power in the decisions that she made.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, okay. Like, we gotta move on to something else.

[Rachel]

There's an expectation that she was supposed to do something and she selfishly is like, no, actually I'm gonna do it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I don't wanna fucking do that, you bitches.

[Rachel]

Now, there was loss in that. She lost her friends. People died. She lost her family and all of that. But she did what she wanted to do.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, all right, I wanna revisit one battle after another.

[Rachel]

Yeah, I'll watch it again.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Donnie, you get us into this one right here with these two people. I wonder what Rachel. If Rachel cares about this. Yeah.

[Donnie]

So influencers Christie and Desmond Scott, they announced that they're going to go their separate ways. This is after more than a decade of marriage. Christy cited alleged infidelity as the reason for the pair split. Yeah. Tell us why we should care.

[Rachel]

I'm not going to tell you why. So Donnie not care?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Donnie, you don't like the, the, the light skinned couple? The woman be flipping?

[Donnie]

I didn't, I don't know much about them. So this is like she flip around the hills.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He goes, he goes, what are you doing?

[Rachel]

The videos are fun to laugh. I actually don't think they're fun. I mean, Jade, Bernard, do y' all follow them? Do you watch that? You consume their content? Consume their content. It's. It's interesting, you know, it has moments. It's redundant.

[Matt Rogers]

Oh.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I think it's funny.

[Rachel]

I think you don't follow them.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, no, no, I see the videos, though. I see the videos when. Of course it's fake. I see the videos when she, she's in there. There was one where she, she was trying on shoes and it was in the shoe store and then all of a sudden she flips in the shoes and does a split. He goes, the boys. I'm like, it's funny. It's funny.

[Rachel]

Yeah. And there's probably 75 more of those videos. And I think that if you follow them, if you follow them like that, like it's weak. It's Eclipse. Because we don't follow them. I probably became aware of them in the last couple of years, but they're very popular, like together they have, like. Like tens of millions of followers, like, together, combined. People really love them. They love their family, they love their relationship, all of that. I. The humor is not necessarily for me. I like pranks. But it's just interesting to see how people become divided when something like this happens. So this couple, they've been together since they were teenagers. I knew that they were Jehovah Witness. I heard.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Wait, what? Hold on for a second. We down at the Kingdom Hall.

[Rachel]

We down at the Kingdom Hall. Hold on. I knew that they were Jehovah Witnesses, but I read that, and I don't know. I'm pretty sure this is true, that she was that. And he converted.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He converted to.

[Rachel]

But they definitely are both Jehovah's Witnesses, Man.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Shout out to Jehovah's Witnesses, man. I'm not even gonna start. Go ahead.

[Rachel]

You already did.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm not even going to stop. I didn't. I didn't know that they was at the Kingdom Hall. Yeah, I didn't know that. Shout out to them.

[Rachel]

They've got two children. Like, people have seen them build their empire, big new house, like, all the things. They have a film company together. They have a lot of joint ventures. Their entire public Persona is built on their marriage, their relationship. They don't really show their children, so it really is just about them. That's tough. That's tough. And it's. It's. It's interesting to see people talk about it because now they're all being honest about how they feel. Like, we just were. Some people are like, oh, I was so tired of the pranks. Oh, I never thought it was funny. Oh, she's this. Oh, he's that. She filed for divorce. She alleged infidelity. He has put out a statement to where he said that they've been having trouble. They tried to work on it. He wanted a separation. During this separation, he says, is when he was unfaithful. He was upfront with her about it. He, in his statement, he does not. Clearly does not want to work on it. He wants to move towards divorce as well. But he said he was upfront about being unfaithful during the separation. And then she filed for divorce, chose to get a divorce. I mean, I think that it brings up a couple of things that are worth talking about. We don't know them. We don't know them as individuals. We don't know what their relationship is like. We don't know. We only know what they present to us, what they choose to show us on their social media. We get the best of them. We get a highlight reel. We get what they want to give to us. That's it. We don't know anything else about them. And I think that it can be harmful when people have these parasocial relationships with certain figures or certain couples and they think that that's ideal, that they want to be just like them when they actually know nothing about them. This is a couple monetizes off their relationship. That's a fact. You. They. They are always doing ads. They go to events together. And this is no shame to them. This is their hustle. Good for them. I. I can tell they've made millions and millions off of it, but their goal is to show themselves or present themselves a certain way and they make money off of it. You don't really know anything about them. And so that's. I think it's harmful to model yourself after people that you don't know when they are paid to present themselves a certain way for you. And then the second part of it is. I literally just lost my train of thought. The second part of it is that I think it's dangerous when couples do this. I think that the odds are against you when you monetize your relationship on social media because you start living in a world of likes and views and partnerships and hashtags rather than the reality of what the actual relationship is. It becomes we have to film this. And I'm not saying every social media couple relationship that monetizes their. Their marriage off of this or partnership off of this is like this. But I think the odds are against you. How do you start to separate the two? You've got to make sure that you're always on. People are watching you. I know the pressures of having to feel like you have this perfect relationship when you know at home, everything is not great because people are watching you because that is what you've built your empire off of. That is almost like building it in sand. Because how do you. When the line starts, a blend of social media or the Internet versus what's real, like, which one are you?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right.

[Rachel]

You see what I'm saying? Like, it could just be very problematic. So I don't know if that's what happened with them or not. I don't know if, you know, when I started looking at this, once they announced the divorce, you could see that she was starting to do a lot of individual stuff as opposed to just them together. He was starting to do it. He's a chef starting to cook and show himself in what he is separate from their Marriage. But I think that also this, this setup takes away the individuality of a person because it was about their marriage and not about who they are as individual people. I think that maybe they were doing things for an audience maybe than rather doing things for themselves. It's. It's tough. So I can see how this could lead to the dissolution of a marriage, but at the end of the day, we don't know. So don't hang your hat on people you don't know. You have no idea what they struggled with or what they went through in your marriage. And you can't pick sides in this either.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You know, I know a couple of Zarwell said, I know a couple of social media boxers. And you watch these guys and if you watch a pro boxer, like a real pro boxer, I'm talking a lot of. Okay, when I say real pro boxers, let me tell you what I mean. I work out at the gym and there are a lot of guys in there who are pros. And then there, there are a lot of lowercase pros, and then they're like uppercase pros.

[Rachel]

What are you?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm nothing. I've never had a pro fight. Okay, but a lowercase pro is a guy that comes in the gym, fights around in the gym, and then one day he goes, I'm having my first pro fight. And then you go, and you see him wherever he at, he's. Wherever he's at, he's having a small fight or whatever. And then there are like uppercase pros. And the uppercase pros are people that are like, they box for real. Like they are in training all the time, they are running, they are watching their nutrition and all of that stuff, those guys are normally different, normal. They normally have bigger promotion, bigger management, all of that stuff. But some of the. So when you see those guys fight the uppercase pros, if you see them hit a heavy bag, you're going to see what an NBA player looks like on a basketball court. Like, they look crazy like that. A lot of those guys have big social media followings because it looks super dynamic when they are training or doing whatever. Then they have a couple fights and they lose. And when you go into the comments and you see people react to some of the losses that they are having. I'm not saying all of these guys, you can take a loss as a boxer, right? But when you go into the comments and you see the comments with people that, you know, saying, hey, you look crazy on ig. You look crazy when you in sparring, you look like you can't be beat when you in headgear. But we just watched you and you just got your shit polished. We just watched you and you couldn't do shit. You gassed, you couldn't. I've seen it all the time. That's because people judge, particularly people in that type of situation when they have an aspirational view of who you are. The opportunity to disappoint them is like fourfold, anytime, anywhere. That's why I tell people, if you want people to aspire to be who you are, or if you set yourself apart from people and you don't say, hey, I'm just like one of you guys. That. That aspiration that people have for you when they think that somebody has figured it out, when they think someone's living in some sort of truth that they can't get to with their body, it's like the liver king guy, when he was talking about, this is what I eat, and people were like, oh, this guy's on steroids. And people were like, what the fuck? When they think that you have an answer and they realize that you don't, they tend to judge you super duper harshly. So just be careful doing that. I will ask you this before we move on. Did you feel pressure in your relationship? You said that you did, but do you think that people's view of, like, you and Brian, did you ever live inauthentically in any way to live up to what people thought about you guys?

[Rachel]

So in the beginning, when we first came off the show, it was like, I remember, and I think I've shared this on the podcast before. We were like ordering an Uber and like, we were trying to figure it out. And so, like, if you watched it, it was kind of like we were like, no, this, know this, know this. And somebody wrote about it. And I remember being super self conscious after that. I was like, we were just trying to figure out where we were going and how we were gonna get there. And I remember walking through the grocery store and being like, oh, if this person recognizes me, are they gonna be like, they're not together. They're not doing this? And so I felt like we had to always make sure that we were either holding hands or that we were so on in the very beginning. And then I quickly was like, I don't want to feel like I have to perform or be somebody. I'm not for social media or even for the public. It's why we rarely posted. We did not post as much. I mean, of course I shared things but you didn't see us doing, like, a lot of joint videos together or stuff like that. I did not monetize our relationship when I so easily could have and made so much money because I wanted to focus on what was real. And I didn't want to feel like I was performing or doing something for somebody else just to make a dollar. I didn't want. I'm just not into monetizing stuff in that way. And Brian actually hated that he wanted to do that kind of stuff.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right?

[Rachel]

And I was like, no, I'm just. I. That. That's just so not me. So that's why we didn't post as much. And everyone's like, oh, they're not doing well. That's not why we. That's not why we didn't post. It's because I made a conscious decision at the beginning not to. Now, to answer the other part of your question, towards the end, people were like, oh, you never post.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh.

[Rachel]

And we were having trouble. Well, I just kept the same, you know, narrative that I had from the very beginning. We just don't post a lot. Like, that's just not like we keep it private. Everything else was so public. We keep all of it private. But the story had changed. We were keeping it more private because we were having issues. I went on Nick Viles podcast a couple of weeks before the divorce was announced, not realizing it was going to happen right then at that moment. So when I went on, I was honest. I think I was like, oh, yeah, we don't really spend as much. We live different lives. That's what I said. And people held onto that. But then I also talked about how I still wanted to have kids, and people were like, oh, she was lying to us because two weeks later she's filing a divorce. No, I did want to have kids, but I wasn't going to be like, okay, let me tell you all the problems that we're having. So I felt like I was still playing into everything was all good when it wasn't.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

To answer your question, boy, tell you what I didn't know. I'll be honest with you, though. I didn't know that Jehovah's Witnesses be cheating like that.

[Rachel]

We don't know how he was cheating. Well, it sounds like they have a. It sounds like they have a different definition of what separation was. Separation is because he's.

[Donnie]

He's.

[Rachel]

His claim Is she filed for infidelity? Yes. We were still married, but I said I wanted to separate. So we were separated. And it seems like for her. What's your take? If you're separated, can you be with other people?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

If you tell, if you, if you tell the person that we are separated right now, then you are separated, but it's up to you to establish the dynamic that we're separated. And after I deliver these watchtowers, I'mma deliver some dick.

[Rachel]

Well, I guess it's the attention of the separation, right? Are you separating with the goal of working on your relationship to get back together or are you separating and moving to divorce? That's the difference. And it seems like they were on different pages.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's like you would have to tell your wife, like, listen, I can't accept any birthday gifts, but what I can accept is some pussy.

[Rachel]

You hung up on the Jehovah. I don't know what, what, what I. I need to look at what it is they exactly believe.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I'm sorry, okay. I didn't know that, man. Shout out to my man Dakota and his. They was Jehovah's Witnesses back in the day. And I never. Dakota was like a real stand up guy. Like, I never knew that, man. I thought, I thought they had to figure out.

[Rachel]

But I'm trying to look and see what particularly John, look, I.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Look, hey, I'm not coming at anybody's religion. It's just was funny he did. It was just funny to me. All right, Donnie, I knew you would.

[Rachel]

Completely be taken aback when I said they were Jehovah's Witnesses. There's a certain connotation that just comes with that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Even if you don't shout out to the Jehovah's Witnesses out there, man, y' all doing y' all things. Shout out, y' all keep doing.

[Matt Rogers]

Taxact knows filing taxes can be confusing. So we have live experts on hand who can help answer any questions you may have. Questions like, can I claim my SUV is my home office? If I answer work emails in my car? If I adopted 12 dogs this year, can I list them as dependents? And am I doing this right or am I doing this very, very wrong? Our experts have the answers to those.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Questions and many others.

[Matt Rogers]

Tax Act. Let's get them over with.

[Rachel]

All right. Yeah.

[Donnie]

Let's switch gears to Minnesota Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem said over the weekend that hundreds more federal agents are on their way to Minneapolis. The community is recovering slash protesting after ICE agent who was identified as Jonathan Ross fatally shot Renee Good Last week, Kristi Noem also posted, or actually the department posted another video from moments before the shooting. This looked like this was cell phone Video from Jonathan Ross. And as I previously said, thousands of people are out there protesting on a regular basis. They did such after this weekend. Thoughts on the situation in Minnesota?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You know, one place where the white people don't play.

[Rachel]

Where?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Minnesota.

[Rachel]

Can I ask you this? When we got that video from, that clearly came from the killer's phone, the. The news outlet that released it. Do you think that they were releasing it for or against him?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I don't know. I think they just were releasing information that they had.

[Rachel]

Well, because I've seen people. I'm seeing some people talk about this, and even when I was watching, I think it was Morning Joe, they alluded to. They released it thinking that this was going to help the case of the killer. I can't know his name, so I'm just gonna call him what he is. Well, he's a killer, right? No, but I'm asking you, do you think they alluded to, they thought that this was released in support of his defense?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, I would hope that any news organization wouldn't be releasing information in support or in condemnation of the killer or Renee Goode. I would hope that you would hope the news organizations would be releasing information that they thought was pertinent to the public.

[Rachel]

Well, because this came from his phone, so he gave it to them, probably thinking that he thought that this was in defense of. Of him. Like, I think that that's how he saw it. And, you know, I'm sure you watch Kristi Noem on Jake Tapper and watch her talk in circles and he really did challenge her. Because I know some people are critical that they don't believe that Jake always does that, but he really did. And she really didn't have an answer for anything when it came to how she's handled this entire shooting that happened with Renee Goode and killing that happened with Renee Goode. But I think the thing that continues when this video came out and you have some people like a Stephen A. Smith who are like, oh, it is very obvious that he was in fear of his life. And no matter what kind of angle they see or this video, they still want to give so much grace to the officer, but no grace. Even after hearing the last words of Renee Goode, even after seeing that she is clearly turning her will away out of the direction of the officer and moving forward, that they. Even after hearing him call her a. After he shoots in front through her window shield and then at point blank range twice through her window on the side, they're still like, well, we want to give him grace. And we can totally understand his intent, but they have, for some reason, they have no ability to understand the intention of her, even after seeing that. I think that's one of the things where I'm like, how make it make sense? I mean, none of this makes sense.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What makes sense?

[Rachel]

What do you mean make it make sense that you can understand his intention, but you can't understand the intention of her?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, well, so this is what I'll say. Number one, I watched that video and I clearly see what I think to be is a murder. Yeah, I say that unequivocally. What you just said to me is interesting because when I see the video, I see law enforcement. We'll talk about law enforcement. There's a video from out of Philadelphia that we want to talk about. I see law enforcement. My. I'm not going to lie and act like my opinion of law enforcement, it doesn't influence the way I look at that video at first glance. The way I view law enforcement, the way I view ICE particularly, is as. Of people that aren't rational. I don't think what ICE is doing is rational.

[Rachel]

There's also a higher standard that's applied, that should be applied to the police force.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Certainly.

[Rachel]

I don't think that's a bias, but that's the standard.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But, but that's a separate thing, though, which is. I'm glad you said that. Right. Because if what, what we did a second ago. What we did on the podcast a second ago was say some people look at that and they, they. They say that it's. What did you say exactly? You said some people look at. Stephen A. Smith looked at it from the, from the standpoint of law enforcement without giving anything.

[Rachel]

Without. Yeah, without giving anything to the other side, despite all the, the video.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right.

[Rachel]

That's out there.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So what I'm trying to say is I think that when we discuss situations like this, number one, we should discuss what you just said, which is that there's not an equal standard that should be applied to a civilian in a car and to a law enforcement officer. Right. There's not an equal standard. The law enforcement officer has the responsibility to de. Escalate. And honestly, most law enforcement, I'm not sure how we view ICE on this. Has a standard of the safety of the civilization billion. Right. So an officer saying that their life is in danger, to me, is an incredibly high, high standard. And it has to be obviously demonstrable that that is the case.

[Rachel]

Yes.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And it is not here. No, it is not here. In my, in my belief that it's not at all here, Right. You get out of the way of the car, he shoots once. You could almost, if you were the most soft we stand with the police observer of all time, you could almost say that the first shot was like, oh, my God, I'm trying to defend myself, which I do not agree with. Yeah, right. But the shots that come after that are connected to the fucking bitch thing. Fucking bitch. How dare you. You have no more life. Yeah, that's what the guy did, in my opinion. What I would want, though, more than anything is for a situation like this to be looked at with a critical eye. And what I'm starting to do, what I start. What I'm starting to want more in my life than anything, is just to get all of the information that is readily available and be able to look at all of the information from trusted sources, both from the news and from the political sphere, and have somebody that I know that wants me to be more informed than I am outraged. The video itself is already outraging to me. What I want is to be able to look at the situation and make decisions based upon information and not people manipulating my feelings for their own outcomes. Now, look, there's a lot of shit that's going on with the case. To me, the most interesting thing is whether or not Renee Goode has even a chance at justice. And I don't think that she does, because there is a battle in Minnesota right now over the jurisdiction of the case, if, in fact, the case is handled by the feds. By the feds. It's a dub. The guy who is the U.S. attorney up there is a gentleman by the name of Daniel Rosen. He is a Trump appointee, by the way. Klobuchar supported him. Clover tried to support him. He's a Trump appointee. He's a seasoned attorney, but he's never really been a prosecutor like that. He was appointed by Trump. The U.S. attorney that was up there before was a Biden appointee. He resigned a week before Trump took office or something like that. Then there was an acting guy, and Daniel Rosen comes in. This is interesting. So the Minnesota bca, which is the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, they were going to open a concurrent investigation into this. Rosen stepped in. This is according to reporting from the Minnesota public. NPR News. NPR News reporter John Collins said that Rosen stepped in and barred this agency from cooperating with officials on the probe. They are now out. They cannot conduct an investigation because they don't have enough access to evidence. They need evidence that the feds are not Letting them have. So I am preparing people for the fact that it is almost impossible as it stands right now, if in fact the feds take this over for Renee Good to get justice for this to, for her to even have the opportunity at justice for us to hold ICE accountable for any way. Because what Trump has done, and it started in the first administration, is embed like minded individuals in all different types of levels of the court and appellate situation to where he is essentially in control of this or people that feel allegiance to him are in control of this and they're gonna rubber stamp what ICE does. It's very likely that they do that.

[Rachel]

Yeah, it's. I mean, I knew the feds were gonna step in when it came to this. It's just one of those things that's so hard because the truth is the facts are. He can say his side of it. Renee Goode can't. You killed her. We'll never know specifically other than this video, which I think is very obvious. But he is going to say when he is investigated, he is going to say that he believed there was an imminent threat and he was reasonable in the decision that he made. And the courts normally give or investigations give a wide legal deference when it comes to fast moving situations. And that's what they're going to say. Now that's for the first shot. I don't know if they're even going to get to the second and the third. But I would think that an investigation would determine, I would think they could. How she was killed.

[Steve Nash]

Was it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So the autopsy is gonna be very important.

[Rachel]

Yeah, the first or second. And that's what's going to be. What is really they need to investigate as well. Because otherwise if you just go on his testimony, he'll say all the things that he needs to say to say that he felt like he was in fear of his life. And sadly, Renee Goode cannot counter that. All you have is video evidence from bystanders and weirdly enough, the video from the officer who shot her, who. Why are you filming in one hand and have a gun in the other? Like that also goes. When we talked last podcast about him placing himself in front of the car. Why are you also filming it? Completely not what an officer should be doing.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, what you should have is a body camera on.

[Rachel]

You should have had a body camera. But also like for what purpose were you filming it? But to me and Kristi Noem had no answer to this. Like she talked with word salad to everything else Jake Tapper did. But when he called Her. When he brought to her attention what that officer said, she was like. Yeah, that appears to be what he said. He called her a fucking bitch. If that doesn't show intention or how he was feeling about her from the get go or what he thought of her period. Not as somebody he should have protected, not of somebody he should. Where he was de. Escalating the situation. Nothing that she was doing matched what Noam or JD Vance or anybody in the Trump administration is saying. She was not, did not appear to be radicalized. Threat, a threat, a domestic threat. All the things that they were saying, all the language, none of that was there. But sadly, she doesn't get to talk about it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, I mean, the reality is that ice, ICE realizes that they are operating with absolutely, like, no oversight. They realize that. They realize that they're operating with no oversight. This is not the first time ICE has been involved in the shooting. ICE has lied on people that have accused them of things before, only to have those people provide evidence that ICE was lying. And then it just kind of goes away. They realize that they are able to operate in these places with impunity. And that is a part of the plan. ICE is a strong man's militia. And that strongman has been able to glamour everyone in. And the outrage is part of it. The outrage is part of it. The outrage is part of it. It's genius up emotion. It makes us reactive. We have to make sure that we never get, we never get complacent about this stuff. But at the same time, we need real reporting, real political action and real movement on all of those levels to be able to look at all of this stuff for what it is. And to me, I've talked about this before, the disintegration of the institutions that surround all of this stuff, you guys, that is going to be here long after Trump is gone. That's gonna be that. Like, the disintegration of these institutions is by far, to me, the most concrete and durable thing that comes out of this MAGA Trumpism is the fact that the weakening of the FBI or the IRS or USAID or any of these things, that stuff is hard to undo. So in this position right here, before this even happened, MAGA was in the lead. They were in the lead because the legal intelligentsia that exists up there to a degree is captured. We'll see what the state is able to do. It is not completely out of the question that the state is able to have some type of accountability for Jonathan Ross or at least get a fair trial, because A lot of times, to your point, when we take these things to trial and we think that they are open and shut, they do not go our way. But what you want is the belief that that is possible, and that is just not a thing right now with the way shit is going.

[Rachel]

No, you do. And back to the original thing that you said. Yes, one. One thing you said. What did you say? Where white people don't play around? Is that what you said?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, Minnesota. Whites don't play around.

[Rachel]

Minnesota. Like, you got to continue to keep that energy. I mean, the videos, the protest, the confrontation. I saw a man at a gas station video of him. He was pumping his gas. Ice rolls up on him, demands. He's like, I'm a citizen. I have a driver's license. They take his driver's license. They ask him where he's from. He's like, I have a driver's license. Like, I'm a citizen. Surrounded completely by Minnesotans. That they say it. Minnesotans. Minnesotans.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I guess.

[Rachel]

So at the gas station, they're on megaphones, screaming, ice, Ice. All of a sudden, people around, like, getting all the evidence they need. That's a way of fighting back. The girl in Minnesota who ordered doordash, and her doordash driver came running into her house. Did you see that one in Minnesota? She's screaming. She's screaming. Neighbors come out. They've got their cameras out. Ice ends up leaving. Now, they do take her husband, but they. But she saved that woman that day. And she's updated since. It's that the woman's okay. But, like, that's also the kind of ways we have to fight back.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, I mean, there's no way to. There's no way to respectably resist. No, that's the. The biggest lie is that there's some type of respectable resistance that you will.

[Rachel]

Be treated a certain way.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

There's no way to respectively resist. Like, if someone feels like they don't have to respect your rights, then you can't respect their authority, and that's it.

[Rachel]

But look at Renee good when you are saying, I'm not mad. They sh. They gun you down with three shots. So it's like, it doesn't. If you surrender peacefully or you're like, hey, I'm trying to get out of your way. I'm not mad at you. I'm telling you, I'm not mad at you. This is not what I'm trying to do. You still end up dead.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, speaking of that, this video I want you to see. Click the link that Donnie just put in there. This video shows to me American citizens asserting their rights. These are the Philadelphia Black Panthers. They're talking to the police.

[Unidentified Speaker 1]

I can hold my gun like this.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's the law.

[Unidentified Speaker 1]

Philadelphia crime code 6108 says I can hold my long arm in my hand. Just can't hit my finger on the trigger. So don't ask me that. You know nothing is against the law. Can I help people? I'm out here minding my business. I'm out here to control and watch you. Anything else? Because you guys like beating up my teammates. Somebody sent us a video of y' all beating up teenage.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Huh?

[Unidentified Speaker 1]

You part of that? It was y'. All. It was y'.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

All.

[Unidentified Speaker 1]

You don't like to be labeled in.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

With the sl testers.

[Unidentified Speaker 1]

You shouldn't have touching their hoes.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That lie.

[Unidentified Speaker 1]

You are sell out. You wearing their. You are seller. You ain't protecting. You got to do whatever they tell you to, including hurt your people. Because you walking up to me and I don't like you and I don't trust you and I don't got no conversation with you. So unless you investigating the crime, leave me the alone. I don't care. I got a gun license right here. This is legal. Philadelphia crime code 6108. Move your car out of people's way and get the upper of my face. Thank you, officer.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Have a good day.

[Unidentified Speaker 1]

You have a bad one. Sell out. Out of here. You smiling for a sell out. You know where you came from? Slave catchers hired you to help catch their property, which was us. Slave catcher controls the origin of that class. You bitch ass. The out of here. Know where you're needed. We don't need your help. Get out the street. Like some you had to say get out the street. Get out the street. Another W. Go with him. Go with him. Get out the street. You blocking Crash. Get out the street. Get the out the street.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So this is the debate and I posted the video and the debate is between some people who think that those brothers, the Philadelphia Black Panthers, were too hard on the police, that they saw two young black police officers and they treated them harshly when what we need is young black law enforcement officers to change the narrative of police in communities. We need community policing and all of that whatever, and that they were too hard on them. And then there are other people that are like, we need to stand in the gap and hold the police responsible for the space that they've occupied for too long in American cities. And people are saying that the video was disrespectful to the police, to those young black police. And some are saying that the Philadelphia Black Panthers are policing their communities and keeping the police from acting as the militaristic unit that they often act at. Act as, should I say, in communities. What is your take?

[Rachel]

I don't have a problem with the Black Panthers and what they're doing. I think that it's actually something like. This video is titled Black Panthers know their rights. Do you? I think that is a very valid question. We should be more equipped to know our rights in heightened situations. Doesn't mean necessarily, as we just talked about what happened in Minnesota, that they will respect it. But at least you can stand there and shout out your rights. You saw what happened. They backed away because with everything that they were saying is true, they were doing nothing that was illegal. I'm not. I'm not mad at that. I'm not mad at them calling them a sellout. I'm not mad at the language that they were using. People are upset. People are angry. People are tired of being. Maybe it's not those particular police officers, but people are. Feel like they're being. Are tired of being terrorized in their own communities by law enforcement. Not mad at it. Now, what I will say is I do think. I don't look at them as sellouts, but those might be two good cops.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No such thing.

[Rachel]

Okay, that's fine. You say that. I'm not gonna sit here and say that every black police officer is necessarily against the community. What I would say here is, let's just say that they are good. Let's say they're new, they're good. Whatever. Take that. Take that back to your. To your law enforcement. Take back what just happened. If they're really about it, I would call a town hall meeting. This is just me being creative with that. You could maybe say I'm both sizing it, but definitely agree with what the Black Panthers were doing. But if the goal is to get on the same page, if the goal is to be able to work together and not against each other, then you and the Black Panthers should do something where you're like, just because I'm black and I'm in a police officer doesn't mean that I'm a sellout. I joined this because I do want to make sure that we do have good people inside the department. We do need representation, and I would like to work hand in hand that we make sure that we are protecting the community. That's, to me, what should happen. Black Panthers should be able to stand on the corner. And then they should be able to work with law enforcement, particularly the black ones, come together and show how can we fight, work together rather than fighting against each other. How can we build back trust if it's even possible at all? You could never have the answer of it at the end. But do we stay in the place where they're in the corner yelling at them at the sellouts as sellouts and we never try to bring it together, or do we try to do something that could possibly. If those officers truly are about representation within the department and, and linking it together, that's something that should happen.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

All right. I think that that's, I, I, I hear you. I do this kind of way I look at it. So I gonna, you know, I don't like binaries. I don't like binaries. Binaries a lot of times rob a situation of nuance, and I have to be better about that. My knee jerk is to say there are no good cops. But that's really what I believe. And the reason why I believe it is because the structures and culture of policing is just rotten to the core. And it's been rotten for so long and it's been deteriorating for so long, it would take a while to build, build it back up. I obviously have no problem with the video. I think that the rage in the video is actually more useful than politeness would be because from a group like the police, respect invites victimization. To me, when you show too much deference to a police officer, in my opinion, most police officers, the power trip that they often are on to me is heightened. It's heightened. When you show too much deference, too much respect to a police officer, the power trip is heightened. There should be a stern and a direct interrogation of what are you doing here? Whenever you are stopped by the police. Now, I'm not the type of guy to hurl insults at people and do all of that stuff. That's just kind of like not my way, right? But I would prefer that way than anything that seemingly accepts the authority of a police officer in a situation where you're not doing anything wrong. If I'm not doing anything wrong, get from out of my face, like, legitimately. No, hey, officer, we're just right here doing right here. Because what happens after that is okay, I know you guys are right or just right here doing this, but I don't want to see this invalid. You know, we're around here, blah, blah, blah. No, no, no, no, no, no. None of that. Not doing anything wrong. I'M well within my rights. Get back into your cruiser, break out. As a matter of fact, what are you doing wrong in the middle of the street? Can't do that. Whatever. Get out of my face. Break out. To your point though, everybody has different jobs. Everyone has different jobs. And when I say I don't like binaries, I also don't like one size fits all way of looking at things. Meaning we have to have brothers like the Panthers. And what the Panthers have always occupied from a historical point, which is self reliability programs to feed children, programs to educate youth, programs to make people politically aware, but also guns. Like the gun laws in California changed because brothers with guns said we are not going to let brothers and sisters, excuse me, with, with guns, said we're not going to be intimidated in the communities that we live in. And Reagan and them was like, nah, we can't let black people have weapons. So we got to take that away and make guns very, very hard to get. Right. But these are people who say my rights and my freedom is not up for debate and I'm not going to politely ask for it. As a matter of fact, when you encroach upon it, I'm going to say get the fuck out of my face and why are you doing this? Like I'm a say get the fuck out of my face. Like what are you doing? I'm not doing anything. I haven't done anything. I'm not going to do anything. Get out of my face. Break. That's here. Also though, if you want to be somebody that works in concert with the police or policing or other structures like that, have at it. Like, like have at it, go for it, have at it, make. There have to be people that say defund the police. And then there also have to be people that say abolish the chokehold. Meaning there has to be a reimagination of public safety, but there also has to be an understanding that the police are here. And then you have to have people who are trying, trying in ways to reduce the harm that police can do to communities. All of these mayors that we talked about on the last time, these guys are working with the police. These guys are sitting down and having conversations with the police. And the stuff that they're doing in these, in, in these communities, that stuff is working right? But at the same time, you either are an American or you're not. There is no middle. Malcolm X said that he, Malcolm X said there's no such thing as a second class citizen. There is a citizen and a non citizen it doesn't come in way either. You can be like, I'm not doing, get the fuck out of my face. And the police get back in their cruisers and get the fuck out of your face. Or the police say, nah, nigger, you can't talk to me like that. You are dead. The second person is not a citizen. The first person is your anger as a police don't give you the right to do anything differently than uphold the law the way that it is written. And so when I watch this and I saw a lot of people go. Because there are two things that are happening. One thing that is happening is people are responding to this, looking at those two brothers as police. But another thing is people are responding to this, looking at those two brothers as black men. And I completely understand, I completely understand when people don't like to see black people talk to each other like that. Sure, yeah, I do. I call it out though, because I'll be honest with you, there are certain black people that you don't give a fuck how, what kind of names we call them or what kind of. And we, there's certain black people, we don't care. And the question is, why don't the police meet that standard in this situation? Maybe you, maybe you don't believe that there's no such thing as a good cop. Maybe you do think that they're a good police. Maybe you think the police. A lot of black people that I know at the, the peril of rambling here, which I'm good at, a lot of black people that I know when I would go back home and I would say, hey, let's reimagine, defund, abolish, whatever, they would be like, hell no. The only thing that's like protecting us from these is these cops. And they will say, and they would say that, they would say, we would actually prefer there's a. So this is not an issue where there is as much cultural oneness as we think that there might be, but there also doesn't have to be. As long as we're properly educated on what policing is. As long as we're properly educated on what policing was and the way policing really affects communities, then deal with it in the way that you, that you need to.

[Rachel]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's. We don't have oneness on the issue. I thought the sellout was funny.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Nah, the best part of the video was, you know, the best part of the video to me was have a good day. You have a bad one, just like that.

[Rachel]

You can't Tell me to get there on that one.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, my God. Yeah. At the end, I have a good day, you have a bad one, Fuck out of here. But they, they. They have. Have that type of energy against the state. People who abuse their authority. And we. Last thing I'll say is not just about the worst case scenario, the death of a black person at the hands of the police. It's about all of the ways, both soft and harder, that police assert their authority in ways that they are not allowed to or shouldn't.

[Rachel]

It's more than that. Absolutely.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

All right. Oh, shit. Okay, Donnie. Yeah. You still haven't got Keith on the show, but Keith would love this next topic. Keith. What's his name? Keith what?

[Donnie]

Edwards.

[Rachel]

Thank you.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Keith Edwards. Keith Eddie. Keith Sweat. We good? And we getting back into Talarico and Crockett because of Bowen Yang.

[Rachel]

It's not Bowen. It's Matt Rogers.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Matt Rogers who? Oh, Matt Rogers was the other guy that was talking Bowen. Yang was in that shit too, though. Bo Yang agreed. Don't try to stall. Bowing out like that.

[Rachel]

I'm not. I know them both. I'm not.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, you. These are your. These are your people.

[Rachel]

I know them. I know them.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Wait, hold on for a second. You know Bowen Yang?

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's your man.

[Rachel]

I mean, I know, but I don't have his phone number. I mean, we'll talk DMs, but he's. He's a. He's a lover of reality TV.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, okay. I didn't know you was on it like that. Okay, this makes it even better.

[Rachel]

Bowen and Matt.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Bowen and Matt. And they do what?

[Rachel]

Reality Lost culture, Lost culturistas.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, I watched this entire podcast, by.

[Rachel]

The way I. I listen to. Because the. The whole first part is him exiting. Talking about him leaving snl. So I didn't really listen to that part. Then they get into housewives and stuff like that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, okay, so you know them from. Okay, so they've been fans of yours?

[Rachel]

Yeah, like we. I. I had to interview Bowen once, and then that's when I realized, oh, he's a fan. I was like, what? So we. Because he loves reality tv. And so, yeah, yeah, we have.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Out of Bo Yang. Okay, they got a little. Donnie, give it to us.

[Donnie]

Yeah, there was a clip that's gone around, that's gotten viral, that they ended up having to walk back some of their criticism for Jasmine Crockett after a segment which they were also taking aim at Gavin Newsom and his presidential bid. Let's hear from Bowen and Matt.

[Matt Rogers]

This Is another thing about early days lost culture that I regret is being a Hillary Stan. I don't regret it because I think we were trying really hard to just win. I know, but I feel, I feel so silly.

[Rachel]

I.

[Matt Rogers]

Here's what I'll say. The president should. I believe the president should have been Elizabeth Warren. You and many, many of the. Of the smart Brooklyn gays are aligned in this. I'm sure we all, like, share like a certain ideology about all this. But the fact is, like, the reason we were Hillary Stans is because at the time, the Bernie Bro thing, Remember, you remember 2016? I remember, like, it was like, it got a little thick there with like the way people were talking on the Bernie side and it was misogynistic and it was tough. And I think at the time there was a very girl bossy like that was Obama corish like, hey, right, don't talk like that. We're gonna crash the glass ceiling girl. And I told my hair back, check my nails. It was a very that. And so I don't, I don't, I don't look back in regrets because we were part of the culture.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We were part of.

[Matt Rogers]

Should we have listened to the populist message all along? Is that ultimately what would work for them? Yes. It's not going to be Gavin Newsom. And when any time a politician is making it too obviously about themselves, I'm already done. Don't waste your money sending to Jasmine Crockett. Do not do it. I must agree. Don't do it. You're going to waste your money. Take it from someone who sent Sarah Gideon, like, a ton of money in me, like, just don't do it. Don't waste your money. Don't do it. It's hard enough to come by. And by the way, I am not being like, fatalist about the Democrats. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just saying they are giving us a wide open opportunity here. Let's not flop by putting up what they said, what everyone said they hated in the beginning, which is in a establishment like California Democrat. Like, it's, it doesn't work. Who is doing it in the same way that, like, they've all been doing it, where it's always failed, where it's.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Like, like Colbert was asking him point blank, like, will you run for president?

[Matt Rogers]

He's like, that's not my focus right now. And by the way, that is a version of his voice that's like, sounds like crystal clear. I mean, get a surgeon.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, all right. So they got their Asses kicked for this.

[Rachel]

Yes. Because they go on more to say he's like, let me clarify.

[Matt Rogers]

Let me just qualify the Jasmine Crockett thing. She's not going to win a Senate seat in Texas, you guys.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Like, if.

[Matt Rogers]

If Beto o' Rourke couldn't do it, like, Jasmine Crockett is not going to do it. She is in. And it's the re. It's nothing against her. It's just that she is a politician and that she is like, you know, like, very well defined already. And I think it's my opinion that we are going to need someone who is less defined at this Mom. That then rises up like, I'm interested in this Talarico guy from Texas. Oh, I don't know him. I'm just interested in him.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You know what I mean?

[Matt Rogers]

I'm like, I haven't seen him before. It would be hard for them to define him as anything other than what he is, which is like a rising Democratic politician from someplace like Texas who is like, yes, speaking a little bit to the middle, but at least he's someone that, like, we can't define already. You know what I mean? Like, Gavin Newsom is defined. I believe Jasmine Crockett is defined.

[Rachel]

And this is what had people ticked off about it. And so he's like, if Beto o' Rourke couldn't win in Texas, Jasmine Crockett is not going to win. So this is what had people all up in arms. The well defined comment and the fact that he's like, he says, I don't really know that much about Talarico, but Talarico is not as defined. He's a Texas rising politician.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Did Matt Rogers say. Matt Rogers both said he didn't know as much about Talarico.

[Rachel]

Bowen said, oh, I don't really know him. And Matt Rogers is like, Bowen had never heard of him. Matt Rogers is like, I don't really know that much about him, but this is what I do know. So he doesn't either. He just knows what he looks like, that he's up and coming and he's in Texas. But people are reading through the lines. This is how people were taking it of. Well, what do you mean by well defined? Because it sounds like you're saying, if Beto o' Rourke couldn't win, Jasmine Crockett can't win. Jasmine Crockett's well defined. He throws in Gavin in there, but it makes it seem like she's defined as a black woman politician from the state of Texas. Whereas James Talarico, who's less defined. He defines him as a rising star. You could say the same thing about Jasmine Crockett in the party. And he's like. He's not as defined. Kind of like we. He's going around basically what people feel like describing his physical features. He's a white man. White man up and coming. She's a black woman in Texas who is also still a rising. Like, she's up and coming. She's a newer politician, more well known. But she's still. Her star's still on the rise. She's further than James, but she's still. I would consider her a young rising star now. Okay.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I mean, yeah. Okay. A couple of things. Number one, that podcast was two hours. So, like, it was like, that was 157. And I thought that it was gonna be all politics, but it was not.

[Rachel]

She would have told me all politics.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay. It wasn't like I listened to a lot of shit about snl. I didn't really give a about, but it was interesting.

[Rachel]

It was all at the end.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So obviously, I don't see why people are upset.

[Rachel]

People are calling him racist, calling Matt Rogers racist and a misogynist.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, so this is a problem.

[Rachel]

I agree.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So this is an issue. And I think it's also an issue that they had to come back and apologize.

[Rachel]

Well, that's kind of what Bowen said. So Matt puts out the statement because he's getting the bulk of it because he said it. Bowen agreed it. But Bowen reposts Matt's apology and makes the comment that should not have curiosity weighed in on this. Understanding the platform and we'll use it more responsibly. But he makes it kind of like, should we not have been more curious about what it is that Matt is saying and the point that he's making? And I still stand by the things that I said with Keith Edwards, because I again said we can't jump to saying somebody's racist and misogynist. You just can't do that. Like, that really takes away from the argument that you are trying to make. I don't agree with what Matt Rogers was saying, particularly because he is not informed. I think that if you're going to speak on a particular subject and you have this platform, there's a responsibility and you need to be informed. You can't say this about Jasmine Crockett and then say, well, I really don't know much about this guy. You can't do that. That should be the thing that people should be picking apart more than they should just jump to oh, you're for him because he's white, and you're against her because she's black and you're a racist and you're a misogynist. That cannot be it. It takes away from what you're trying to do. There are problems in what he said, but if you listen to it in the entire context, you know, the meaning behind it is, hey, you can't be so passionate. You can't vote necessarily from an emotional or passionate place. You have to vote for. I think what he was saying is what's gonna. What he believes is gonna win. Because he did say that. He's like, oh, we voted for Hillary because we thought she was gonna win. But I totally disagree, and people may be surprised. But I did also say this with Keith. You cannot jump to name calling. It's not a smart argument. It's not an effective argument unless it is obviously, well warranted.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So, Couple of things. Number one, Jasmine Crockett is a newer face on politicians, but she has probably the strongest political brand in the Democratic Party. Like Jasmine Crockett has probably the strongest in the party. She, to me right now, the. The reason why, what she was doing.

[Rachel]

Or.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Strongest brand in the party of her ilk. Right? Meaning I feel like there's a cultural understanding of who Jasmine Crockett is. And to me, there is.

[Rachel]

You know why? The only reason I like, kind of turn my head at it is because I think people in the same way we talked about the way she rolled out her brand. Right. It was very much so. Me versus Trump. This is all the things Trump has said. But then if you watched her entire speech, you realize there is so much more that she wants to accomplish or that she believes in or that she's trying to do. I don't know if that many people grasp that side of her brand, which is why I say I don't know if she has the strongest brand.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You're talking about politics. I said brand. So when I'm like, so explain that. So what I mean is, to know somebody's politics, you have to get granular. Like, you have to get granular to know their politics.

[Rachel]

So what's a politician's brand?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

A politician's brand is like anybody else's brand. A politician's brand is part of. If I was to tell you, if I was to ask you. Have you ever seen 12 Monkeys? No, that's Brad Pitt's best performance to me. Okay, but if. I said if I. So when I'm thinking about Brad Pitt, I'm thinking about him. As a star. Great looking, married to Angelina Jolie. Might sell you some perfume or some cologne or something like that. That's Brad Pitt's brand. His. Brad Pitt is dashing movie star. People know, you might know who he's with. But if I asked you about who Brad Pitt as is as an actor or that's a part of his brand. But if I asked you what that is, you'd have to know which movies it was in. You'd have to know the movie that made Brad Pitt a star. You'd have to know he popped out at Thelma and Louise. You have to know all how Brad Pitt rose pitfalls, movies that he did that he thought was going to break him. Meet Joe Black. Didn't work. All of that stuff like that. You'd have to know all of that stuff to be able to get granular about who Brad Pitt is as an actor. When somebody, when you ask someone about who somebody is as a politician, then that is going to get super into votes that they've made the constituency that they represent. There are a bunch of people who know that Jasmine Crockett is a fighter against Donald Trump that don't know what congressional district she represents.

[Rachel]

So what's her brand?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Her brand to me is. Her brand, to me is one of the faces of the resistance Democrats against Donald Trump that. That has helped define her brand. Her brand has been defined as someone who don't take no shit from the president and whose messaging in that regard cuts through like whose messaging in that regard cuts through to people. Right. Fierce fighter against Donald Trump and someone who has been specifically attacked by Donald Trump. The. When she. She gave two different. Which you could also, you could almost agree is kind of smart. I actually think that the video came off bad, but it's actually not a bad strategy, if you ask me. She gave two different videos, one that spoke to her brand and she used it as branding, which is how Donald Trump has attacked her and how she's unbothered by it, which is what a lot of people connect with with her. And then another one that got more granular into her story, into her politics, into. Into who she is now. She can melt those things and create a different brand. Right. I would argue that in Barack Obama's presidential. His presidential campaign, the vast majority of it was branding. Sure.

[Rachel]

Oh, for sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Sure. There was policy. There was. There was policy. There was policy in terms of Obamacare. There was policy points that he talked about a lot. He's a very thoughtful and brilliant man. Right. But a lot of it was hope and change.

[Rachel]

I was gonna say it was hope.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

A lot of it was hope and change. Barack Obama stood on the stage and said, hey, you know what? We are the ones that we have been waiting for. That is the type of thing that people are going to respond to it. I'll never forget it. There was a white lady in the back fucking crying. I'm like, oh, he got it right. And when you look at the fact that the unknown of Barack Obama was positioned against the very well established, with all warts and all political realities of Hillary Clinton and John McCain, what people were able to vote for was what they thought represented the promise and a different way of looking at things. Right?

[Rachel]

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And a lot of times in these situations, your branding can work for you, can work against you. So I think that Jasmine Crockett is definitely, maybe not the same as Nancy Pelosi or Maxine Waters, but she is one of the most powerful and established right now in terms of messaging brands. In the.

[Rachel]

Sure. She is one of the most influential right now. Now, I will say that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So when I look at what they're saying, to me, they're saying, we know her and we don't like her. And, and so, and, and, and, and to me, they're saying, I know this other guy less. I know this other guy less. And what I get when I've gotten from him, I've liked so far. As far as the electability portion of this, that's. This is precarious. Like, the electability portion of it is kind of like if you looked at two candidates and you said one looks like they can win here and the other one doesn't. One looks like they can win in this state and the other one doesn't. Is that offensive?

[Rachel]

No.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

This is my issue. Difficult. Van's about to piss you off again. This is my issue. We can protect Jasmine Crockett as a black woman, and we should. We cannot protect her as a politician. We can't. I just.

[Rachel]

I'm not saying I'm listening.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We can protect Jasmine Crockett as a black woman. If somebody comes out and says, Jasmine Crockett is low iq, Jasmine Crockett is a ghetto Shaniqua. No way. We're protecting her as a black woman. As an attack on a black woman.

[Rachel]

Yeah. That is racist.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

As a politician. No politician deserves any quarter in any type of way. Because it wouldn't even be Jasmine Crockett trying. It wouldn't even be James Talarico trying. If you protect somebody that has that type of Power, the insulation that you are giving them, they get addicted to that. And to me, what we have to do, especially right now, where the world, where the world order is in peril, all of this, oh, democracy is in peril. All that stuff is in peril. We have to be able to analyze these people for who they are and make cogent decisions on who we want to represent us wherever they are.

[Rachel]

Yeah, no, I agree with you. And that's why I say this is my. You know, I'll go back to what I was saying about Matt and Bowen. If you're going to talk about it, people are going to say, oh, you're being. Because it, it does even sound like that to me. I'll be honest. When you say, when I'm like, what does well defined mean versus a guy who's less defined, who you're also saying, I don't even know anything about. Like, you're not. You didn't say much about Jasmine Crockett other than she was well defined. I need you to say more because what happens is then people are saying, well, wait a second, what are you saying? And I'm not saying that they're right because I don't agree. I don't think that this was racist or a misogynist comment. But it le the door open when you're not as well researched about the people that you're talking about to kind of talk in such a broad way, where then people start putting their own connotations and assumptions on the thing that it is that you're saying. They start lumping you in with a Keith Edwards or whoever else it may be. I think that. And the reason I said that, when we shout out things like, oh, this is racist, or oh, this is misogynist, when it's not, oh, she's a Shaniqua or oh, like you, or stuff like that. I'm not saying that every person who speaks in her in a critical way may have some of these undertones in the things that they're saying. I don't think that that's what's going on right here, but I think that it's ineffective because we should be able to critique our politicians to the latter part of what you're saying. I completely agree with you. You want them to be better. You want to know what they stand for, and you want to know that they're going to represent you in the way that you want to be represented. You can't coddle them or be so protective over them just because they come from our community. I Don't even think Jasmine Crockett would want that from you. I would like to think that she would want. Doesn't want to think that she is above any type of constructive criticism or critique. Because going back to who Jasmine Crockett is in her brand, to use that word that you use, she is somebody who can hold her own, who is willing to step up to the challenge. And I would say that she welcomes that challenge. So why are we coddling her when she is showing that she is ready to step up to the table and show you exactly who she is? I think it's problematic when we start throwing those words out there because back to what I was saying, it's ineffective. Let Jasmine Crockett be Jasmine Crockett and show you who she is and what she's about.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What's the difference between what they did and what Keith did to you?

[Rachel]

So Keith to me. One, I think. Well, one, I think that they have two different platforms. One, I think they have two different platforms. Keith presents himself as somebody who speaks on politics, who talks about politics. And he's clearly liberal and a Democrat. But from. And I don't deep dive, I don't follow him in that way. I don't really see him taking sides in that sense. And again, I'm not.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He certainly does.

[Rachel]

Okay, who else is he taking a side for within the Democratic Party?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You go down and you look at his, at his page. He gives. I think it's very difficult. I don't know anyone, like, I legitimately don't know anyone, anyone who comments on politics and doesn't take sides. For example, if I'm watching.

[Rachel]

But I'm asking you who else that he's done it with because this is if. And I'll just finish. I'm gonna be really short and brief on this. What. And I, and I want to like stay on this subject. The lost culturistas do a, do a podcast about pop culture reality tv. That's more of their thing than it is politics. So to me it was coming from more of a ill informed place which they admit to as they're talking about it. They're not. That's not their platform. With a Keith Edwards. That is what his platform is. That is who he has positioned himself. I believe he's even worked for campaigns or worked as a strategist. That's who he is. And so for me, having that type of, of platform, I'm not saying he can't be for James, but the way he presents himself is. I'm just Presenting out here what the news is with these two politicians running against each other within the Texas Democratic Party. I'm just showing you what's out there. It doesn't feel that way. It feels very biased towards just James. The information he continues to put out there about Jasmine is all critical or points to why you should vote just for James rather than just putting what Jasmine's doing out there. Like, he didn't post her speech. He posted the criticism of the announcement and used this podcast to further that position. He didn't say, oh, here's also this 40 minute speech that she did where she even. You might not have liked how she rolled it out, but here's 40 minutes of her also talking about what she stands for. He has an informative platform. And to me, when it comes to Jasmine and James, it doesn't seem to be as informative as it is bias. That's the difference. I hold them same way we hold up certain people, like we talked about earlier in the podcast, at different standards. He is not Bowen and Matt. They don't have a political. Political platform. Political YouTube show. Keith Edwards does.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, okay, so.

[Rachel]

But I don't think he's racist or misogynist.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I don't see very much of a difference. I'm looking at him right here. Now, obviously he takes sides between liberal.

[Rachel]

Right, right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, cool. But I'm looking at videos right here where he's talking about Chuck Schumer, where he's talking about Chuck Schumer versus aoc, where he's talking about, you know, there's one video called Chuck Schumer Just Nuked His Career. Where I'm looking at him, I'm seeing, I'm seeing in almost every political. Every political person that I follow them saying that they're. Now they are straight up news journalists, right? They're straight up news journalists who will come on there, like, I don't know, like a. Actually, to be honest with you now, I can't think of anyone that I watch that doesn't editorialize. And that just has to do with the state of political news that doesn't go, hey, these are the set of things that I believe in. And I do not align with whatever person. Go back to it. I think a lot of people had already decided that Talarico was the type of guy that could win in Texas. I think they had already decided it. They decided it after he went on Joe Rogan.

[Rachel]

I think we kind of talked about it that way.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

We did. They talked about it. And I think Jasmine Crockett Getting into the race makes them contend with something because maybe they don't think that she is the type of person who could win state, who could win the Senate race in Texas.

[Rachel]

I know there's several people, including black people, who feel that way in Texas.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right. So my thing is, when I look at what Keith was doing, I think the standard that we're holding him to or the standard that. Well, that we're holding him to, that people got mad about, is something that we really honestly kind of don't do. Like on the podcast right here, we spend a lot of time kicking the shit out of Keem Jeffries. Kicking the shit out. Like Chuck Schumer, talking about the type of Democrats that. That we like. Right. Like, I've talked about it ad nauseam before. We've talked about this. We've discussed it. Right. We don't. I don't really spend a lot of time talking about things that I agree with Hakeem Jeffries over. I don't like that type of Democrat. If it's Richie Torres, I don't like that type of Democrat. I don't like that type of centrist, corporate establishment Democrat. And if. If it is unfair to criticize that him or say that I prefer or Zoram Hamdani style Democrat or a Cori Bush style Democrat or Jamaal Bowman style Democrat, I am more to the left. I don't ever really feel the need, and maybe this is wrong on our part and other people's parts. I don't really feel the need to do the whole. This is kind of that. I am looking at that age of Democratic politics, and I'm saying it's kind of over. I don't. I don't fuck with it. I don't deal with it anymore.

[Rachel]

Right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And if anybody shows themselves to be that for me, I'm not really gonna be down with them. It's kind of a tough thing. We've also criticized guys like Graham Platner on what I believe his terrible response as it relates to black people over some of the racial scandals that he has. We've done all of that. The key thing is, like, do I think that there is something that is deeply ingrained in white America and also in black America, that in America, period, that propagates misogyny, war and all of that stuff? Yeah, for sure, for sure. I definitely believe that that is the case.

[Rachel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

In the case with him, what I saw was a lot of people kind of getting mad because he went, I don't really like her. That much.

[Rachel]

And it felt more than that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But what I'm telling you is what.

[Rachel]

I'm saying, it felt like he was campaigning more for him.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But my question is this, though. Even if he was, let's say that he was.

[Rachel]

I just didn't know he had that kind of platform.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Let's say that he was. Let's say that he was campaigning because really, my point is that it's no different than what Bo and Yang.

[Rachel]

And they have different platforms, which is why I think it's different.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

See, I will say this. If we look at it that way, we're kind of treating them like babies a little bit.

[Rachel]

No, you literally said that they are so wrong because that you shouldn't be talking about a topic you don't know.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Well, I don't. Here's the deal. This is kind of a thing that we get into, too. It's like when that started, boy, Yang talked about how silly he thought hasili he felt for supporting Hillary Clinton. Right. And then he talked about what he would support is what they should support is a more populist movement. They talked about regret that they had over candidates that they supported before they. They analyzed politically the changing landscape of Democrat politics. Talked about, like, why they didn't like Gavin Newsom. They talked about all of this stuff. They didn't get into the. The guts and the viscera of all of the policies. But they have a political point of view. They have a political point of view, and their political point of view led them to believe, based upon past experiences, that they don't like candidates like Jasmine Crockett. They didn't say why. They also didn't say really why they liked the people that they did like. It is assumed that there's a sort of leftist, liberal populism that they. That they are endorsing now that they haven't endorsed in the past. And to me, they have a right to say that. And it doesn't have to jump directly into, you must be flogged and apologize. Okay. Unless they are directly and overtly to me, I can't even detect any racism from what they said. Right.

[Rachel]

I agree with you on that part.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But all I'm saying is there's really no difference. And the reason why I.

[Rachel]

We'll just disagree.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, there's really no difference between that and what Keith did. And the reason why I'm pointing back to that is because we cannot do anything at this point right now. I don't think engaging in or investigating massaging the war. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But we can't get into rage reactions that stop us from coming to politics and engaging in politics in a way that sharpens these candidates and holds them accountable for things that we might not like.

[Rachel]

I we cannot put in identity in front of this detrimental to the politician which I just explained about Jasmine Crockett. I agree with you. We see the Keith Edwards things differently. Because when I look you're looking at his YouTube page. I believe when I look at his threads and I go down, he seems to report a lot more than Opine. I think he's more opinionated on YouTube. But one of the things that he did post like today it came out that here's why Kevin put out today that I guess James Talarico sent a letter to his Jewish supporters in support of Israel.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right.

[Rachel]

I am looking at Keith Edwards page that is reported nowhere. But what he did report was a picture of Jasmine Crockett and said is it progressive to accept an all expense paid trip to Israel funded by aipac? It has got Jasmine Crockett in it. That's the kind of thing I say and you might not agree with this but that's the kind of thing that people are saying. You're pointing all this. It seems that you only put out negative stuff. He is so in his right to do that. I'm just saying what people are saying. You're pointing out negative stuff when it comes to Jasmine Crockett but then you're not reporting the other side of it. He can do it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But is that because she's black though.

[Rachel]

That I'm telling you what people are saying? Because I was of the assumption and maybe I just don't know the Keith Edwards platform and my God, Keith, if you came on here we could talk about it and I could have a better understanding. I could have a better understanding about you, Keith. I could have a better understanding of you. I could ask you these questions directly with rather assuming I could tell you why people think this way because I. It was my impression that you are somebody who informs about you're a fighter of democracy and you inform things about the. About. Yes, about the Democratic Party and it seems a little biased and you're reporting Jasmine versus versus James and people believe that it is because of a certain thing. I'm not going to put that on you, but it does feel like it leans more way than the other. I'm not going to say the reason why, but I would ask you that if you came on the podcast.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So I'm not saying that he's giving equal time just so people know. I'm not saying he's giving equal time to Talarico and Crockett. I'm saying that he doesn't have to. That's what I'm saying.

[Rachel]

And I agree with you on that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And I'm saying we. If we have a conversation with Keith and we like investigate whether or not there's something underneath the fact that he doesn't support Jack, I think that's a fair conversation to have. But I think to make that leap sometimes.

[Rachel]

I agree with you.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I think both of these. In both of these cases, to make that leap when we're talking about a politician and I know our knee jerk is to be supportive of our sister. I think that leap sometimes is. Is. Is limiting. Let me ask you this.

[Rachel]

But we agree, guys, we should be critiquing a politician, no matter gender or race. That is. You're.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You're being critique them equally is the last thing I'll say.

[Rachel]

What do you mean equally?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Meaning should we have.

[Rachel]

I think if you gonna post that Jasmine went on an Israel trip, then you need to be also talking about. James Talarico sent out a letter saying he supports sending. Israel has the right to defend itself.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Let me ask you this, on if you were voting today, who would you vote for? James Talariko.

[Rachel]

Oh, I can't say.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You have. No, you don't.

[Rachel]

I actually cannot say.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You don't know. You're in Texas. You don't know who you would vote for?

[Rachel]

I really don't. They are debating in a couple of weeks and I am very much so looking forward to it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Did you read the James Talarico email?

[Rachel]

I read. Yeah, I read it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay.

[Rachel]

I don't know why I'm like. I didn't read. I read it.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, this is what I'll say. First of all, how much time do we have? We gotta go.

[Rachel]

We got a little bit of time.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, first of all, let's talk about this real quick before we get off this. Let's just talk about this issue real quickly, really quickly. In this James Talarico email, he was talking to his Jewish supporters and he reiterated Israel's right to defend itself.

[Rachel]

Two state solution.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Two state solution. And he said that he is open to sending defensive weapons to Israel to protect.

[Rachel]

And then he specifies. He's like. Like the Iron Dome.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay. Do you make any difference between sending defensive weapons?

[Rachel]

We've had this conversation before and at the time when we talked about it, I said I could get down more with defensive Weapons, like an iron dome, than I could that. But I'm totally against offensive. That was a different time. Right now, nothing should be said. Absolutely nothing.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Right.

[Rachel]

I don't know how you can say that right now. And I might have been wrong when I said it, what, six months, a year ago? You could argue that I'm wrong. I'll go and say, baby, I was wrong then. But right now, I would never send out a letter like this.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So I would not vote for James Talarico. Okay? I wouldn't vote for James because of this. Let me not say I wouldn't vote for him because it would depend on who he's he's running against. This to me was, it's a red line for me. Sending weapons to Israel. It's a red line for me. The entire American, Israeli relationship has to be reevaluated. The entire thing, the whole thing has to be reevaluated. Geopolitics aside. Right. Geopolitics aside. Also, this demonstrates to me that James Talarico is closer. And, you know, we talked about the Miriam Elson stuff, which he.

[Rachel]

Which do you see? He differentiates in the letter. He says, but I won't accept PAC money. That's the way around it. You're not accepting PAC money. You're accepting it from someone, from an individual.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. So this, to me, defines James Talarico as the same brand of Democrat, centrist, liberal, corporate democrat that had existed before. Now, listen, you guys don't have to look at it that way.

[Rachel]

There.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

There are things, to me, that are indicators of this type of stuff. This is one of them. Okay? There is no issue whatsoever with wanting the Israeli people to be safe. If you have an issue with that, you are a disgusting person. Right. If you have an issue with any group of people wanting to be safe.

[Rachel]

Right.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The military, weapons and the technology that we send Israel is not used responsibly in the region. Israel has gone to war with all of its neighbors. All of its neighbors. The protesting that's going on in Iran right now, people are just monitoring the situation and waiting for Netanyahu and his regime to take the. The opportunity to go in there and try to get involved in some kind of way. America has to take a real, real look. A real look and stop. All of the military support that we give to the state of Israel has to. Really, even before this, before October 7th, when we talked about Iron Dome technology and all of that stuff, we didn't talk about that in the context of Israel continually taking settlement land in the West Bank. And when Obama tried to talk about it, they kicked his fucking ass. Got his ass kicked. Kicked his fucking ass. When you. When we tried to say, hey, stop inter. Stop violating international law. Stop violating international law by going to take lands that don't belong to you under international law. This open crime that nobody pays attention to, that no one even pays attention to, just like kicking people out of their houses, taking more land, building settlements. It's kind of like this nasty thing that nobody is supposed to discuss, but we're supposed to maintain the same type of relationship that we have with Israel and not demand that Israel stop breaking the law and taking more land. Right. So when I see this from Talarico, I say no bueno. No bueno. No bueno. Right. Couple of questions. Number one, how big of an issue is for this. For. This is for a lot of people.

[Rachel]

I've talked about it before. Israel is not an issue for Texas voters.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

They don't care. Okay, fair enough. Number two, if we were talking about Talarico versus Jasmine Crockett on Israel, you are probably, if you're outside of the people that care about it, just going to have to put on geopolitics in any regard. This is why I'm saying this last thing I'll say. I don't think people are looking at this race as a race for the Texas Senate. They're looking at this race in particular, which is why things are so ratcheted up as legitimately the future of the Democratic Party. Like a lot of people feel like Jasmine Crockett represents the future of the Democratic Party. And there was a thought about that way before she got into the Senate race. Right. Actually, the Republicans were trying to, in a way, promote her as that because they think that a lot of Americans will find her unpopular. Right?

[Rachel]

Yes.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But beyond that, to me, when I looked at her, she was the only one that was consequential. She was legitimately the. She is the most uncorny Democrat that they have to me, besides my squad people, Jamal Bowman, Maxwell Frost.

[Rachel]

There's others.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

There's others. But in terms of being somebody that doesn't seem like the stuff that they're doing is completely contrived and nauseating. It's way ahead of the rest of the people. She cut through and was able to rattle cages a little bit like that about her. Talarico came through with a sort of base Christian appeal to all type of charisma. Christ, like, very Christ, like type of charisma that really made people think that he was the new wave of Democrat.

[Rachel]

Because in a different way, Right. She cuts through. If you're talking about brands, her brand is. She cuts through. She's no bs. She's calling it like it is. She's not afraid of you in any kind of way. And she's going to. To be true to who she is in all of that. Right. She's not going to bend in any kind of way. Whereas James is the other side of it, where it's like, he's not as. What's the word I want to use? I want to use this word. Right?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Help me with the word bombastic.

[Rachel]

I don't like that word. Soften it up.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He's. He's not.

[Rachel]

That's why I'm having trouble with the word.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I mean, you want to. What words? You want to say?

[Rachel]

No, it's just that I think people. I use the word. I was like. When they see James, they see Christ, like, right. He's always backing. Each policy that he believes in or issue is backed by scripture. That's why I say Christ, like. And people look at him. I don't even know if they looked at him as the future of the party. But definitely what could be the future of blue in Texas. He could cross the line to a Texan. And as. As a white religious man and speak to them in a language that Jasmine necessarily. They don't want to hear. I don't know if it's interesting now that I'm talking about it out loud. I don't know if I even looked at James as the future of the entire party, but definitely the future of a Texas blue party.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

That's fair. I'll tell you this. This is truly the last thing I'll say.

[Rachel]

It's okay. I keep talking to him.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I say it would be idiotic for me, for anyone. For Bo Yang, lost culturistas, Matt Rogers.

[Rachel]

Y' all have a new fan in bed.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I whip my hair back and forth. That shit is funny when they say it down. I'm sorry. That a part of the appeal of James Talarico is the safeness that people feel with white male orthodoxy, with the belief in the leadership of white males.

[Rachel]

It's white male plus religion.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But there is. Because Gavin Newsom's not that religious at all.

[Rachel]

Exactly.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But there has been a shock to the system on the left. And that shock to the system has made people say, you know what? What we need to do is just pick. Pick the right white guy to fight these other white guys. What we need is Gavin Newsom, who is a polished Slick cut from the fucking 1985, 1995 political fucking handbook type of candidate. We need a Graham Platner. We need to find the right white guys to replace the wrong white guys. Because what we need now is a white guy. We've tried everything else and it hasn't worked. We've run women twice. We even got really spicy and ran a black woman and America said no. The only time they said yes to us on a national stage is when we ran a white guy. So all we need to do is find the right white guy right now because that'll stop all of this. That reaction makes sense. Not intellectually. To me it feels bad. I see why people think that, of course. But if we can't talk about how fucked up that is, if it makes everybody squeamish, not just to talk about the reasons why, we should be able to talk about Jasmine Crockett as a politician and not as a black woman. And while we should be able to talk about James Talarico as a white man and not as a politician, then what we are doing is tucking our tail yet again. It's almost over. I want people to know it's almost over in a real way. It's almost over. You've almost lost it if you don't. And I need to do this more than anyone. Tuck your emotions to the side a little bit. Stand up straight and have some tough conversations. You're gonna give a whole store away by doing what makes you feel good in the moment. So all of this stuff is fair game to me. And the more we kick people's asses and make them give apologies rather than explanations don't exist in conversation about this stuff. We're propagating some of the old stuff that kind of got us here.

[Unidentified Speaker 1]

Here.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

The reason why the Democrats can't get a hold on who they're supposed to be as individuals and as a party is because they don't know what people are going to respond to. They. Look, maybe that's too much.

[Rachel]

Last thing.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Maybe that's too much. Let's go. Let's go. I don't want to. It's not you guys fault. I don't want to make. If you're listening to my voice right now, I don't want to. To make you the. The. The culprit.

[Rachel]

No, it's an understood you. Yes.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I guess I'm not. Yeah, that's. That's too much. All I'm saying is all of us, we're having this identity crisis. But the main thing is because we're panicked.

[Rachel]

We don't want to keep this. The regime, in place. We don't want it to happen again. Yes.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

All right. All right, I think we got to go. What time is your pot?

[Rachel]

Like 12 30. 12 30.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

12 30. I can't talk. Can I talk about one thing before we go?

[Rachel]

What do you want to talk about?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Just one more thing, guys.

[Rachel]

Last thing. Can we make a montage of him saying, this is the last thing? Thank you, Dottie. Dottie's keeping. Keeping track. What? I'm. I'm curious on this rundown because we had several. We had a lot of topics on the rundown today, and there's a lot we didn't get to. So I'm. I'm very curious as to the one you just gotta do.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

So we got. Just to let y' all know, we got Donnie McClurkin in here. We got Yolanda Adams in here. Do you want to hit on any. Anyone?

[Rachel]

No, no, no, no. I was done. Okay, which one is, like, it's so on your mind because it's Donna McClurkin, it's Yolanda Adams, it's Steve Nash breaking down the issues within the NBA. And then there was Jesse Wu and Cardi B going at each other. Which one just has you so fired up? Oh, and Russell Simmons also demanding his $100 million, which. From the lawsuit that he sued HBO Warner's last year. Which one is it, fan?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

It's Steve Nash. Okay.

[Rachel]

It's sports.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay. But it's not sports. It's not sports. It's not sports.

[Rachel]

Can you tell people who. Not everybody knows who Steve Nash is? Van, if you know who Steve Nash.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Is, then you shouldn't be. Steve Nash was one of these. He was a. Oh, 50, 40, 90. Who knows? In the. Who in this room, who knows what 5040,90 means?

[Matt Rogers]

So.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Hold on for a second, man. See, this is type of shit I'm talking about. So. So. So wait a second. In this room right now, how many people. Donnie, do you know what 50. 40. 50. 40, 90 means? I don't. Rachel.

[Rachel]

It's stats.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Stats.

[Rachel]

So. I know it's stats. I'm just trying to think of which.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Come on, now.

[Rachel]

50, 40, 90. Well, he's the assist king.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

He was the assist. He was the assist king.

[Rachel]

Well, was. When he was playing.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah. He was the man.

[Rachel]

Boom, boom. 50, 90. Boom.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

These are percentages.

[Rachel]

Okay, okay, okay. So he's. It's shooting, it's assists.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No, no, no, no.

[Rachel]

Okay. It's shooting.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

These are all shooting stats.

[Rachel]

Oh, okay. So three point.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

There you go.

[Rachel]

Free throw.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay. And from the field. Yeah, that's what the fuck I'm talking about. Racist on top of it.

[Rachel]

Okay, so he's 90 at the free throw.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

90 at the free throw.

[Rachel]

He's a 40 in the field.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

No.

[Rachel]

Oh, it's switched. Damn.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

40.

[Rachel]

Yeah, he's 40 in the field. 3 point.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

40 from the. 3 point 50 from the field.

[Rachel]

Yeah, so that's like switched.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

A hyper elite shooter. See, that's what the fuck I'm talking about, y'. All.

[Rachel]

Y' all could have guessed it was stats.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, yeah. So they're guys there. 50, 49.

[Rachel]

Not like I just had it like that.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

50, 49 guys. All right. Steve Nash was on TV and he was talking about the limits of capitalism and he just couldn't bring himself to have a full throated criticism of capitalism. And it was so interesting.

[Rachel]

He was on Amazon doing this, which is even more interesting.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

I know, I know, but I want you guys to hear this. And when I heard this, I thought about how I think how I talk to myself and how I want to talk to myself. Play with Steve Nash. Now, hold on. Before you play it, Steve. Steve Nash is talking about how youth basketball has changed, comparing it to the United States and overseas, how youth basketball and basketball development has changed.

[Rachel]

Play what he said, it's frustrating.

[Steve Nash]

That's the highlights. That's the mixtape. That's not the game. That's not what makes Donovan Mitchell great.

[Rachel]

Right.

[Steve Nash]

It's being simple and playing the game. But this is about structure. You know, it's pay to play. It's pay to play in the States. You know, capitalism is wonderful. It's not great for player development in Europe. To play, it's free. You go to your local club. It's subsidized, more or less mostly by that community. So there's no hidden motives. There's no we got a winner. The kids leaving to the next club. Everyone's here for the long term to develop, more or less. And so I think what you get is coaches. They're. There's thousands of amazing coaches in the United States. It's not like there's only coaches in Europe. There's amazing coaches here, but they have a structure over there where you stick with your coaches more or less generally, and you learn to play the game the right way under the right pretenses. You know, here it's just been totally commercialized and it makes it really hard for coaches to get their hands on a program or a kid and say, we are going to develop you the right way as a group to play skill, basketball, team basketball and play a variety of ways over here, it's very much like Swin said, get in your bag, learn the skills. Some skills coach is going to charge you by the hour at the park, whatever it is. I mean, it's gotten out of hand, unfortunately. I don't want to take any money out of anyone's pockets, but it makes the structure really difficult to teach kids to play the long, the long game, you guys.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

At its core, that is such an easily digestible criticism of gangster capitalism run amok. What Steve Nash is essentially saying there is, the overall quality of basketball here is deteriorating because not everybody has access to the type of capital that sharpens or even develops your basketball skills. And the fact that the money is the focus over the betterment, evolution and ascension of the player overall hurts the individual person and the product. And there are places in Europe where their concern is twofold. One, the player, the person, the people, right? And to the game, the institution, the purity. And because of that, they are learning quicker, they're developing better, they're doing stuff that we're not doing. That is when I heard him be like, hey, I love capitalism, but let me tell you the problems of it. Hey, don't want to take any money away from anyone. But the fact that it's all about money is actually hurting people's personal and sports development. Do you know how many industries in this country I could take that exact same structure and apply it to?

[Rachel]

Sure.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

And the part of the American money religion, when we got out of actually orienting our society around what the average person could do and around what a billionaire could make. Part of that is the belief that an influx of cash into everything will solve all of our problems. The competition will give you better schools, that competition will give you more housing. That competition will give. And it's just a lie. It's not working. It hasn't worked in a very long time. But the Oprah, Jordan Jackson dogma of American excellence has blinded us to the fact that, that America chooses who is excellent by who they invest into. And he's saying that, but he just can't bring himself to say it. He can't bring himself to say it because he's on Amazon. He can't bring himself to say it because he's made so much money. There's this thing to where we're right there. We see it like right now. We see it like, we see it. We see an American economy that's all invested into AI and not into the person. We see an American economy that doesn't work for anyone. We see four or five different Americas. We used to talk about two Americas in black and white. But now there's a rich black America and there's a poor black America, there's an educated black America and I guess there's always, this has always been like this and there's a sort of ignorant black America that you can't talk to or try to connect with. There are people that we have to leave behind all of this stuff. It's. But because we all have the same wants that are bred into us, we just can't bring ourselves to say, hey, we thought that taking a kid and that making basketball about shoe contracts and money and all of this stuff and not about the game, that that would help the game. But it's not. It's hurting the game. It's actually hurting the game. And what would help the game is the focus on the person, the focus on the sport, the focus on the warmth of collectivism.

[Rachel]

I don't even know if they really, I think it got past the point of thinking it could make the game better. I think it was, at the end of the day, it really was just about capitalism. But only. I totally agree with everything that you said. I think Steve Nash did say it. I don't think Steve Nash could like what, the way you just spelled it out and what you did. He's never going to be able to do that on, on a television show. And on prime, the moment he said the word capitalism, I knew exactly that he meant everything that you just said. I think that was the best that he could do in that space. And he was very intentional and purposeful in doing it. He wanted to say that and get that out there and he did.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

But once again, last thing, he's Dallas Mavericks, he's also a Canadian. He knows what it's like to come from a country where you can get sick and then go to the doctor. A perfect health care, all of that stuff, stuff, whatever it is, we all want to make money, we all want to get money. But the single minded focus of attaining in America on your own, in competition with your community. We just have to get to a point to where in my opinion we can like full throatedly analyze that. Okay, that's enough. You know what?

[Donnie]

Feel better?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Yeah, I'm good. Shut up.

[Rachel]

Donnie.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Donnie, you know you said all right, take us out.

[Rachel]

No, no.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

You don't know what a 349 is.

[Rachel]

Read the rundown. That might be that might be outside of their. Like, that might be a. Well, you're Gen X. It might be a Gen X thing.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

What's a Gen X thing?

[Rachel]

You're not a millennial. You're Gen X. You know that, right? Like, I've heard you refer to yourself as a millennial and I've let it slide. But you're Gen X. Yeah, I'm Gen.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

X. I think I'm Gen X. I mean, well, actually, hold on. It depends on what you look at, right?

[Rachel]

It's not 1982.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, well, I'm not well, honestly. But the Gen X thing a lot of times stops at, like, 78. And there's. There's sometimes.

[Rachel]

Oh, you're just in the. There's nothing. There's nothing. 78 to 82. I've never heard anybody say that. So you gotta go, well, no, I.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Mean, fuck it, I'm Gen X. I don't give a fuck.

[Rachel]

And I mean, what I meant was that terminology might not have trickled down to RGCRS in the room.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Oh, 50, 40, 90. Oh, y' all just don't know shit about sports. I mean, if that. Hold on. You say you're saying I'm too old?

[Rachel]

No, I'm not saying it might be.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

A. I bet you if I ask Logan. Hold on real quick.

[Rachel]

That's what Logan does. That's his expertise.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Logan is the youngest person in this room.

[Rachel]

Well versed, historically in basketball, so he might not. Historically.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Historically in basketball.

[Unidentified Speaker 1]

Can I call Jomi?

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Can I call Jomi? If I call Jamie right now and ask Joe what a 53.

[Donnie]

We have an ad re we gotta do. We really gotta go.

[Van Lathan Jr.]

Okay, fuck it then. Like, don't get on me because y' all don't know. Hey, take your think caps off, but do not stop learning about basketball.

[Rachel]

I'm Van Lathan Jr. And I'm Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.