Podcast Summary: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Talking ‘Him,’ Biracial Identity, and Athleticism With Tyriq Withers! Plus, the Back-and-Forth With Stephen A. and Jimmy Kimmel’s Return
Date: September 26, 2025
Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. & Rachel Lindsay
Guest: Tyriq Withers
Producer: The Ringer

Episode Overview

This episode of Higher Learning is a rich, multi-layered discussion that centers around three main topics:

1. The tense, ongoing debate between Van and Stephen A. Smith about civil rights strategy and what it means to “act accordingly” in today’s political climate.
2. Persistent threats to free speech and media independence, examining Jimmy Kimmel’s return to air and contrasting it with the treatment of Black media figures like Joy Reid, Tiffany Cross, and Colin Kaepernick.
3. A deep, insightful interview with Tyriq Withers, star of the bold new sports-horror film Him, exploring biracial identity, athleticism, and Black artistic responsibility.

The tone is energetic and unfiltered, mixing humorous asides (chicken heiress stories, PS5 theft at the office) with serious conversations about Black activism, media, and identity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Lady World Festival, Chicken Heiresses, and Being Black in Community

(00:01-07:58)

• Rachel discusses attending the Y2K-themed Lady World festival hosted by the Lady Gang Podcast in Destin, Florida.
• Van jokes about the “richest people in Louisiana” and the chicken empire, referencing Raising Cane’s and chicken heiresses; playful banter around leveraging friendships for perks (skipping lines).
• Memorable quote:
  • Van: “The chicken niggas ride again... $22 billion off chicken. I'm very proud of what they've been able to do at Raising Cane’s... North Baton Rouge could use some help.” (03:01)
• Rachel tells a story about using her connection to skip the long line at Raising Cane’s, highlighting how privilege and proximity work—even humorously—within Black circles.

2. Stephen A. Smith Back-and-Forth: Adaptation vs. Capitulation in Black History

(07:58-25:22)

• Context: Stephen A. Smith responded to criticism from Van and Rachel regarding his statements suggesting people (including Black icons) have always “acted accordingly” in the face of oppression.
• Stephen A. Response (09:07-12:45): Smith argues that historic figures like MLK, Malcolm X, and Medgar Evers adapted strategically, not by capitulation.
  • Stephen A.: “All adapting doesn't mean capitulating... It means strategizing and operating accordingly. That's how you win.” (09:40)
• Van offers a sharp counterpoint:
  • Movements like the Montgomery Bus Boycott were "intentionally and overtly disruptive—protecting each other by organizing, not snaking around the drain of white supremacy." (14:48)
  • Calls out the difference between strategic organizing for solidarity and silent (or ambiguous) adaptation.
• Rachel adds that Smith, when asked point-blank what he meant by "operate accordingly," dodged the issue by shifting to "fair and balance" rhetoric rather than clarifying his stance (21:10).
  • Rachel: "If you were going to say it, you would have said it. She specifically asked you." (21:39)
• Van describes the real work of activism as messy, often unglamorous, and risky—people organizing in secret, at cost, often without recognition.

3. Respect, Pandering, and Gender in Black Culture

(33:16-38:18)

• Van and Rachel riff about the line between genuine respect for Black women and condescending pandering.
  • Rachel: "When it becomes condescending… Just talk to me. Right? Be respectful, yes, but don’t pander." (35:35)
• Van jokes about going “Nubian queen, mother of the earth” as an over-the-top example of pandering.
• They highlight how respect for Black women often gets misread as “pandering” among Black men—a cultural tension.

4. Fearless Debaters at TSU: Free Speech or Racial Harassment?

(38:37-49:01)

• Discussion of a group called the Fearless Debaters, who entered Tennessee State University’s campus, uninvited, with MAGA hats and inflammatory signs.
• The group claims to spark honest debate, but Van and Rachel see it as targeted harassment.
  • Van: “Get off our dick. Leave us alone… This is a form of dick riding.” (40:48)
• They reflect on whether students should ignore or confront such provocations, agreeing that students have the right to respond as they feel, especially when purposefully antagonized.
• Rachel nails the core issue:
  • “Please… stop acting like and hiding behind the First Amendment that you’re just out here trying to have conversation… when the reality is you just want to be a fucking star.” (48:15)

5. Jimmy Kimmel’s Return and Double Standards in Media Solidarity

(49:56-61:54)

• Jimmy Kimmel’s triumphant return after being targeted for removal by right-wing political pressure is analyzed.
  • Trump’s reaction: “I can’t believe ABC Fake News gave Jimmy Kimmel his job back…” (50:34)
  • Van and Rachel point out the hollowness of such accusations given the clear viewership numbers and broader implications for press freedom.
• They compare media and popular support for Kimmel to the lack of collective action or notable wins for Black media hosts (like Joy Ann Reid, Tiffany Cross) and Colin Kaepernick.
  • Rachel: “You're not—it's going to be hard pressed for you to find non-Black people to be as angry about what's happening to Black people in the media…” (56:23)
  • Van: “Of course there's investigation that needs to happen here. I think this one [Kimmel] was flagrant because of Brendan Carr [FCC commissioner directly threatening removal].” (59:31)
• Both lament the lack of broader, actionable solidarity for Black figures in media, acknowledging that people often feel guilt/shame for not sustaining protest movements (e.g., Kaepernick/NFL boycott).

6. The Office PS5 Theft!

(71:52-77:53)

• On a lighter note, Van shares a whodunit story: a PS5 went missing at the Ringer/Spotify office; he pegs it as a crisis of trust and vows to get to the bottom of it.
• Rachel jokes she wouldn’t recognize a PS5 if she saw one, highlighting her lack of gaming expertise.

7. Kamala Harris Watch: Politician, Memoirist, or Future President?

(78:23-82:21)

• Van and Rachel discuss Kamala Harris's recent media appearances and memoir. Van critiques her for not being decisive or transparent enough, reading the book as a possible bid to clear the slate for a future presidential run.
  • Van: “Everything seems to be pointing towards her belief that she has a future in politics...” (81:09)
  • Rachel: “Control the narrative. That's exactly what this is… the messy side of me loves this.” (82:21)

In-Depth Interview: Tyriq Withers on Him (Film), Identity, and Art

(83:49-113:39)

Tyriq Withers—Journey, Humility, and Art

• Tyriq discusses his rapid ascent from supporting friend (sleeping on Nicholas Duvernay’s couch) to leading man:
  • “I'm not one to beat my chest, you know, I just do my thing and the work dictates itself.” (85:32)
  • Grapples with imposter syndrome, pressures of stardom, and focuses on the deeper impact of his work.

Press, Joy, and Showing Up Authentically

• On staying grounded and joyful on his press tour: finds inspiration from Marlon Wayans, learning to let go and be authentic.
  • “You start seeing the freedom of him holding on to who he authentically is... I just started letting go and allowing myself to have fun.” (87:34)

Psychological Toll of Him, Artistic Purpose

• The psychological challenge of filming a horror that examines the commodification and trauma of Black athletes in America.
  • “I started saying, like, you don’t really watch Him, you survive it…” (90:01)
• Emphasizes the importance of having a support network and using art as a tool for healing and social truth.

Athleticism to Acting—and Identity

• Explores real parallels to his character’s journey:
  • Former athlete (played football at Florida State, though mainly benched), pivoted to acting after a detour through struggling jobs, and the pain of personal loss (his brother passing).

Biracial & White Passing Identity

• Tyriq speaks thoughtfully about being biracial, the privilege of being perceived as “white-passing,” and his choice (not assumption) of Blackness.
  • “I walk through the world with privilege, so I’d be remiss to not mention that… It’s a journey. And I think being Black is an honor because we come from greatness.” (99:16)
• His process: Navigating belonging, leaning into community at FSU (Alpha Phi Alpha, Black Student Union), and always centering the Black experience in his roles without co-opting narratives.

Art That Isn’t for Easy Consumption

• Tyriq and Van highlight that Him is made for reflection, conversation, not easy enjoyment.
  • “You don’t make art for people to like it. You know, you can create art that shines a light onto real reality…” (96:11)
• Finds liberation in not tying his ego to others’ opinions:
  • “As long as I know I did everything to bring this story to life, I don't try to buy into the... you live by the sword, you die by the sword. It's a story...” (113:26)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Civil Rights Strategy:

  • Van: “We are not snaking around the drain of white supremacy. We’re ripping the plumbing out.” (14:48)

• On White Provocateurs at HBCUs:

  • Van: “Get off our dick. That’s how I feel. Get off our dick.” (40:48)

• On Black Women & Pandering:

  • Rachel: “When it becomes condescending... just talk to me. Right?” (35:35)

• On Jimmy Kimmel’s Return & Race:

  • Rachel: “It's going to be hard pressed for you to find non-black people to be as angry about what's happening to Black people...”
  • Van (on Brendan Carr's role): “...this one was flagrant because of Brendan Carr. He was very direct...” (59:31)

• On Biracial Identity:

  • Tyriq Withers: “I walk through the world with privilege, so I’d be remiss to not mention that privilege. But… being Black is an honor because we come from greatness…” (99:16)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Lady World, Chicken Heiresses Banter: 00:01–07:58
• Stephen A. Smith Back-and-Forth: 07:58–25:22
• Respect/Pandering for Black Women: 33:16–38:18
• Fearless Debaters at TSU: 38:37–49:01
• Jimmy Kimmel, Free Speech, Race Double Standards: 49:56–61:54
• Office PS5 Goes Missing: 71:52–77:53
• Kamala Harris, Politician or Memoirist: 78:23–82:21
• Interview with Tyriq Withers: 83:49–113:39

Conclusion

This Higher Learning episode deftly balances the urgent and the everyday—political critique, pop-culture analysis, and probing discussions of identity and resistance—all anchored by humor and honesty. The interview with Tyriq Withers highlights the stakes of Black storytelling and the burdens of representation, offering context for wider conversations about solidarity, activism, and authenticity within and outside the Black community.

Van and Rachel continue to model what it means to be “thought warriors” in turbulent times: mixing critique, vulnerability, and humor, while amplifying dissent and celebrating Black achievement.

Listen to this episode for:

• Unapologetic debates on strategy vs. survival in Black activism
• Critical media analysis and the dynamics of public solidarity
• An in-depth, vulnerable conversation with a rising Black artist wrestling with legacy, pressure, and purpose

Hosts: Van Lathan Jr., Rachel Lindsay
Guest: Tyriq Withers
Podcast: Higher Learning
Date: September 26, 2025