Talking ‘Him,’ Biracial Identity, and Athleticism With Tyriq Withers! Plus, the Back-and-Forth With Stephen A. and Jimmy Kimmel’s Return. | Higher Learning | The Ringer

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Talking ‘Him,’ Biracial Identity, and Athleticism With Tyriq Withers! Plus, the Back-and-Forth With Stephen A. and Jimmy Kimmel’s Return
Date: September 26, 2025
Hosts: Van Lathan Jr. & Rachel Lindsay
Guest: Tyriq Withers
Producer: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

This episode of Higher Learning is a rich, multi-layered discussion that centers around three main topics:

1. The tense, ongoing debate between Van and Stephen A. Smith about civil rights strategy and what it means to “act accordingly” in today’s political climate.
2. Persistent threats to free speech and media independence, examining Jimmy Kimmel’s return to air and contrasting it with the treatment of Black media figures like Joy Reid, Tiffany Cross, and Colin Kaepernick.
3. A deep, insightful interview with Tyriq Withers, star of the bold new sports-horror film Him, exploring biracial identity, athleticism, and Black artistic responsibility.

The tone is energetic and unfiltered, mixing humorous asides (chicken heiress stories, PS5 theft at the office) with serious conversations about Black activism, media, and identity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Lady World Festival, Chicken Heiresses, and Being Black in Community

(00:01-07:58)

• Rachel discusses attending the Y2K-themed Lady World festival hosted by the Lady Gang Podcast in Destin, Florida.
• Van jokes about the “richest people in Louisiana” and the chicken empire, referencing Raising Cane’s and chicken heiresses; playful banter around leveraging friendships for perks (skipping lines).
• Memorable quote:
  • Van: “The chicken niggas ride again... $22 billion off chicken. I'm very proud of what they've been able to do at Raising Cane’s... North Baton Rouge could use some help.” (03:01)
• Rachel tells a story about using her connection to skip the long line at Raising Cane’s, highlighting how privilege and proximity work—even humorously—within Black circles.

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2. Stephen A. Smith Back-and-Forth: Adaptation vs. Capitulation in Black History

(07:58-25:22)

• Context: Stephen A. Smith responded to criticism from Van and Rachel regarding his statements suggesting people (including Black icons) have always “acted accordingly” in the face of oppression.
• Stephen A. Response (09:07-12:45): Smith argues that historic figures like MLK, Malcolm X, and Medgar Evers adapted strategically, not by capitulation.
  • Stephen A.: “All adapting doesn't mean capitulating... It means strategizing and operating accordingly. That's how you win.” (09:40)
• Van offers a sharp counterpoint:
  • Movements like the Montgomery Bus Boycott were "intentionally and overtly disruptive—protecting each other by organizing, not snaking around the drain of white supremacy." (14:48)
  • Calls out the difference between strategic organizing for solidarity and silent (or ambiguous) adaptation.
• Rachel adds that Smith, when asked point-blank what he meant by "operate accordingly," dodged the issue by shifting to "fair and balance" rhetoric rather than clarifying his stance (21:10).
  • Rachel: "If you were going to say it, you would have said it. She specifically asked you." (21:39)
• Van describes the real work of activism as messy, often unglamorous, and risky—people organizing in secret, at cost, often without recognition.

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3. Respect, Pandering, and Gender in Black Culture

(33:16-38:18)

• Van and Rachel riff about the line between genuine respect for Black women and condescending pandering.
  • Rachel: "When it becomes condescending… Just talk to me. Right? Be respectful, yes, but don’t pander." (35:35)
• Van jokes about going “Nubian queen, mother of the earth” as an over-the-top example of pandering.
• They highlight how respect for Black women often gets misread as “pandering” among Black men—a cultural tension.

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4. Fearless Debaters at TSU: Free Speech or Racial Harassment?

(38:37-49:01)

• Discussion of a group called the Fearless Debaters, who entered Tennessee State University’s campus, uninvited, with MAGA hats and inflammatory signs.
• The group claims to spark honest debate, but Van and Rachel see it as targeted harassment.
  • Van: “Get off our dick. Leave us alone… This is a form of dick riding.” (40:48)
• They reflect on whether students should ignore or confront such provocations, agreeing that students have the right to respond as they feel, especially when purposefully antagonized.
• Rachel nails the core issue:
  • “Please… stop acting like and hiding behind the First Amendment that you’re just out here trying to have conversation… when the reality is you just want to be a fucking star.” (48:15)

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5. Jimmy Kimmel’s Return and Double Standards in Media Solidarity

(49:56-61:54)

• Jimmy Kimmel’s triumphant return after being targeted for removal by right-wing political pressure is analyzed.
  • Trump’s reaction: “I can’t believe ABC Fake News gave Jimmy Kimmel his job back…” (50:34)
  • Van and Rachel point out the hollowness of such accusations given the clear viewership numbers and broader implications for press freedom.
• They compare media and popular support for Kimmel to the lack of collective action or notable wins for Black media hosts (like Joy Ann Reid, Tiffany Cross) and Colin Kaepernick.
  • Rachel: “You're not—it's going to be hard pressed for you to find non-Black people to be as angry about what's happening to Black people in the media…” (56:23)
  • Van: “Of course there's investigation that needs to happen here. I think this one [Kimmel] was flagrant because of Brendan Carr [FCC commissioner directly threatening removal].” (59:31)
• Both lament the lack of broader, actionable solidarity for Black figures in media, acknowledging that people often feel guilt/shame for not sustaining protest movements (e.g., Kaepernick/NFL boycott).

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6. The Office PS5 Theft!

(71:52-77:53)

• On a lighter note, Van shares a whodunit story: a PS5 went missing at the Ringer/Spotify office; he pegs it as a crisis of trust and vows to get to the bottom of it.
• Rachel jokes she wouldn’t recognize a PS5 if she saw one, highlighting her lack of gaming expertise.

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7. Kamala Harris Watch: Politician, Memoirist, or Future President?

(78:23-82:21)

• Van and Rachel discuss Kamala Harris's recent media appearances and memoir. Van critiques her for not being decisive or transparent enough, reading the book as a possible bid to clear the slate for a future presidential run.
  • Van: “Everything seems to be pointing towards her belief that she has a future in politics...” (81:09)
  • Rachel: “Control the narrative. That's exactly what this is… the messy side of me loves this.” (82:21)

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In-Depth Interview: Tyriq Withers on Him (Film), Identity, and Art

(83:49-113:39)

Tyriq Withers—Journey, Humility, and Art

• Tyriq discusses his rapid ascent from supporting friend (sleeping on Nicholas Duvernay’s couch) to leading man:
  • “I'm not one to beat my chest, you know, I just do my thing and the work dictates itself.” (85:32)
  • Grapples with imposter syndrome, pressures of stardom, and focuses on the deeper impact of his work.

Press, Joy, and Showing Up Authentically

• On staying grounded and joyful on his press tour: finds inspiration from Marlon Wayans, learning to let go and be authentic.
  • “You start seeing the freedom of him holding on to who he authentically is... I just started letting go and allowing myself to have fun.” (87:34)

Psychological Toll of Him, Artistic Purpose

• The psychological challenge of filming a horror that examines the commodification and trauma of Black athletes in America.
  • “I started saying, like, you don’t really watch Him, you survive it…” (90:01)
• Emphasizes the importance of having a support network and using art as a tool for healing and social truth.

Athleticism to Acting—and Identity

• Explores real parallels to his character’s journey:
  • Former athlete (played football at Florida State, though mainly benched), pivoted to acting after a detour through struggling jobs, and the pain of personal loss (his brother passing).

Biracial & White Passing Identity

• Tyriq speaks thoughtfully about being biracial, the privilege of being perceived as “white-passing,” and his choice (not assumption) of Blackness.
  • “I walk through the world with privilege, so I’d be remiss to not mention that… It’s a journey. And I think being Black is an honor because we come from greatness.” (99:16)
• His process: Navigating belonging, leaning into community at FSU (Alpha Phi Alpha, Black Student Union), and always centering the Black experience in his roles without co-opting narratives.

Art That Isn’t for Easy Consumption

• Tyriq and Van highlight that Him is made for reflection, conversation, not easy enjoyment.
  • “You don’t make art for people to like it. You know, you can create art that shines a light onto real reality…” (96:11)
• Finds liberation in not tying his ego to others’ opinions:
  • “As long as I know I did everything to bring this story to life, I don't try to buy into the... you live by the sword, you die by the sword. It's a story...” (113:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Civil Rights Strategy:

  • Van: “We are not snaking around the drain of white supremacy. We’re ripping the plumbing out.” (14:48)

• On White Provocateurs at HBCUs:

  • Van: “Get off our dick. That’s how I feel. Get off our dick.” (40:48)

• On Black Women & Pandering:

  • Rachel: “When it becomes condescending... just talk to me. Right?” (35:35)

• On Jimmy Kimmel’s Return & Race:

  • Rachel: “It's going to be hard pressed for you to find non-black people to be as angry about what's happening to Black people...”
  • Van (on Brendan Carr's role): “...this one was flagrant because of Brendan Carr. He was very direct...” (59:31)

• On Biracial Identity:

  • Tyriq Withers: “I walk through the world with privilege, so I’d be remiss to not mention that privilege. But… being Black is an honor because we come from greatness…” (99:16)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Lady World, Chicken Heiresses Banter: 00:01–07:58
• Stephen A. Smith Back-and-Forth: 07:58–25:22
• Respect/Pandering for Black Women: 33:16–38:18
• Fearless Debaters at TSU: 38:37–49:01
• Jimmy Kimmel, Free Speech, Race Double Standards: 49:56–61:54
• Office PS5 Goes Missing: 71:52–77:53
• Kamala Harris, Politician or Memoirist: 78:23–82:21
• Interview with Tyriq Withers: 83:49–113:39

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Conclusion

This Higher Learning episode deftly balances the urgent and the everyday—political critique, pop-culture analysis, and probing discussions of identity and resistance—all anchored by humor and honesty. The interview with Tyriq Withers highlights the stakes of Black storytelling and the burdens of representation, offering context for wider conversations about solidarity, activism, and authenticity within and outside the Black community.

Van and Rachel continue to model what it means to be “thought warriors” in turbulent times: mixing critique, vulnerability, and humor, while amplifying dissent and celebrating Black achievement.

Listen to this episode for:

• Unapologetic debates on strategy vs. survival in Black activism
• Critical media analysis and the dynamics of public solidarity
• An in-depth, vulnerable conversation with a rising Black artist wrestling with legacy, pressure, and purpose

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Hosts: Van Lathan Jr., Rachel Lindsay
Guest: Tyriq Withers
Podcast: Higher Learning
Date: September 26, 2025

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Transcript

[A]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up high Warning is on.

[B]

Is Ivan Lazen Jr. And it's me, Rachel, and Lindsay.

[A]

Rachel, where you at, Rachel?

[B]

On the road.

[A]

On the road? Like, where exactly? Don't tell me.

[B]

Why? Why I gotta tell everybody my business? I'm doing Lady World this weekend in Destin, Florida.

[A]

Lady World. Oh, but they want to know the exact address that you're at.

[B]

Stop. Keep going.

[A]

Do it now. Okay. What's Lady World? What's Lady World?

[B]

It's a big festival. It's put on by Lady Gang Podcast. Group of women and Kelsey Knight had this big envision of, like, getting all your best friends together. Kind of like an homage to the 2000s. So it's like Y2K night, and people performing are like Mark McGrath and O Town, and it's just like a.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Yeah, it's Chris Kilpatrick from NSync, and this is a.

[A]

What a watt gathering.

[B]

People are. I'm there. I mean, I'm there.

[A]

When you said Lady Gang, we're performing.

[B]

We're performing. Lady Gang is the name of it. They're calling it Lady World. So it's to all their listeners, anybody who's a fan, and then, like, there's a bunch of people performing, doing, like, shows on stage. So Justin Sylvester and I are doing a show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Justin and I are doing a show together. Yeah. So we're gonna have some fun, but, like, a bunch of different people will be there. A lot of podcasters.

[A]

What happens when you mix fun girl powered community with juicy pop culture commentary? A dash of unfiltered celebrity interviews. At three ladies with a killer sense of humor, you get not only one of America's most popular podcasts, but a phenomenon that everyone from Us Weekly to Entertainment Weekly is talking about. Welcome to the Lady Gang with Keltie Knight, Becca Tobin, and Jack Vanek. A different celebrity guest joins each week as these ladies discuss topics such as dating in la, breakups, parenthood, career, and social media.

[B]

That's their podcast description. Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

I've heard of them before, so I've.

[B]

Never been to Destin before, so this is fun. We'll be fun.

[A]

You guys going to the beach and all that type of dumbass shit.

[B]

Yeah, Staying right on the beach, going to the festival for a couple of days. We don't perform. We perform Saturday. And who performs?

[A]

Who's performing?

[B]

Well, I told you, like Chris Kilpatrick.

[A]

Oh, no, but you said we're. You're performing.

[B]

Me and Justin. Me and Justin.

[A]

Oh, you're Justin.

[B]

I mean, like, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're going with some friends from Louisiana.

[A]

Who? Oh, the chick. Oh, oh, oh. Chicken. It's chicken time. Again with the chicken people. You guys want the chicken people? The chicken niggas ride again when you're with them. These are the richest people in Louisiana, by the way. It is. It's the richest people in Louisiana. No bullshit. $22 billion off chicken. I'm very proud of what they've been able to do at raising canes. Sell chicken all over the world. $22 billion. You know, North Baton Rouge can use some help. Maybe they'll do it, maybe they won't. Listen, do y'. All. When y'. All. When you with the chicken niggas. When y'. All. Is it. Y' all eat a lot of raising canes. It's like y' all just having the chicken.

[B]

No, I've never had raising canes with them.

[A]

So you mean, tell me that all of this, you hanging out with them, you can't even get a chicken finger.

[B]

That's not what it's about.

[A]

You know what I always wonder. Cause we gotta get to Stephen Little.

[B]

Yeah. Breaking news. Breaking news, basically. That dropped.

[A]

But you know what? I wondered. I wondered, like. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai, who says you can't be the topic of conversation for all the right reasons. The Hyundai Tucson hybrid pairs bold presence with advanced technology and sleek style. It's everything you didn't know you needed in an SUV and then some. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more.

[B]

Your teen adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained. One who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New team. The new fragrance by Miu Miu, defined by you.

[A]

If you are Todd Graves and you run raising canes and you go, this is kind of what fat people like myself, fat niggas think, obviously it would be dope to have raising canes and be worth $22 billion. Not for me. Cause I don't care about that. But for a lot of people, right? But what would be doper is that. Let's say you're Todd Graves and you're in Jacksonville, Florida. And Jacksonville, we're talking to Tyrick Withers, who's the star of him joining us later on the show. And you just want some raising Canes. Can you stop at any raising Cane's if you are Todd Graves and be like, yo, give me a cagiac to go. I need it.

[B]

Why would you not? I would imagine.

[A]

Does he get free chicken? He gets free chicken.

[B]

I'm not with him. I'm not with him. I'm friends with the wife. Like, we're on it's girls trip, but I'm not with him. But not them, but somebody I else. Maybe it was a Wingstop. I knew some people who owned a Wingstop and there was like a card, I don't know if it was Wingstop or not, that they could show that they could always get free stuff. There was something there. So maybe he's got something like that. But I don't know. I'm not really. I don't. I'm not around him.

[A]

You know what y' all should do for social? You guys should take the chicken heiress and you guys should go into a raising Cane's and just have her go up to the front and order chicken. And then when they ask to pay for it, she should say, I'm Todd Graves wife and I don't pay for chicken. Like, we started this. We started this in Baton Rouge. It's grown and I don't pay for chicken. I'm Todd Graze's wife. So you see what they say? You see what they say? Maybe they give the chicken up.

[B]

Okay, I haven't told the story, but I was in Nashville one time and we were on Broadway. I was like, I wanna go to Broadway. I wanna go to Broadway. So on Broadway, we're drinking, having a good time. And, like, I'm hungry and I wanna eat. And the line for raising canes is down, like, wrapped down the street, wrapped around the corner. I was like, I'm not waiting in this line. I walk up to the front and I go, we know the owners. See now, Donnie dead ass serious.

[A]

Now, see, now, hold on for a second. See what I'm saying? I noticed. So this is why that. This is why y' all drove me when y' all were having that conversation.

[B]

I will.

[A]

This is why y' all drove me. That's why. This is why my brain cratered when we were having that conversation. Cause I was like, I know this nigga.

[B]

I've never said I haven't. But here's the crazy thing. I say it.

[A]

Chicken elastics.

[B]

I say it. I say it without any kind of proof, right? It's 12:30 in the morning. I'm lit. It's me. I got willie Back. He was like, I'm not doing that. And I was like, well, I'm gonna go.

[A]

Justin Sylvester was with you?

[B]

No, it was me and Willie.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And I was like. He was like, I'm not going up there. And I was like, watch this. And I just went up there.

[A]

Did they give you the chicken?

[B]

He goes, how many people are with you now? I didn't ask for free food. I asked to cut the line. And I said. He said, how many people are with you? And I was like, me and him. And he was like, come on.

[A]

So I'm talking about. They didn't really give you that because they just like you. They didn't give you that.

[B]

He was black. He was. He was a black. He was a.

[A]

He probably was like, come on, sister. Come get. I don't need you to.

[B]

I definitely tried it. Yeah, I definitely tried it.

[A]

Okay. We have a lot to talk about on Higher Learning today. We talked about the fact we have Tyreek Withers from him very divisive movie. I would say the responsive movie has been divisive. However, it's launching a young career, and that is the career of Tyreek Withers. And he's going to join us on Higher Learn a little bit later today. But the first thing we're going to do is talk about the fact that literally as we speak, Stephen A. Smith responded to some of the things that we had to say on Higher Learning last week. And we met him in criticism before. Respect. Respectful criticism. But we met him in criticism before. So we want to make sure that our audience listens to what he had to say. Give him his say, and we'll respond to that in kind. He responded to our criticism of Stephen A. Smith's saying, act accordingly. This is what he said. The people that you've respected. That's me talking. They reacted to the American political reality. They never acted accordingly.

[C]

Lies. Respectfully. Because I like Van Lathan and I respect that, brother. But that's not true. Martin Luther King adapted. Malcolm X adapted. Medda Evers adapted. The list goes on and on and on. Look at the Civil Rights movement and some of the things that provoked it. Look at Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat on a bus that was planned and orchestrated because they recognized what kind of fallout would emanate from that which would help spearhead the Civil Rights movement. Folks knew exactly what they were doing. They knew what they were up against, and they strategized. That's all I meant.

[B]

Van Solomon.

[C]

All adapting doesn't mean capitulating. It doesn't mean surrendering. It doesn't mean tolerating quietly with no resistance whatsoever the shrapnel of bigotry, racism or anything else that might come our way. It means strategizing and operating accordingly. That's how you win. That's how things get done. When I brought up Kimmel, why did I bring it up? Because he works at Disney. And by the way, most of y' all out there speculate about Disney. I have worked for Disney for 23 years. You're guessing. I know. And I'm an on air talent under the Disney umbrella. Who knows ABC has local affiliates like nexstar and Sinclair with tens of stations around the country, soon to be hundreds if not there already that can pile over 22% of the television market. Late nights already losing money across the board, across the business. And the local affiliates ultimately are going to raise hell because of the monologue that Jimmy Kimmel gave that particular moment.

[A]

6.2.

[C]

Your ABC, you know it. They yank you from the air as everybody point the finger at abc. ABC brought Jimmy Kimmel back last night. The next star, the Sinclair in places like St. Louis, New Orleans and beyond. Is he seen there? Didn't he acknowledge in his opening monologue that 22% of the markets, if not more, are not airing his show? You think that equates to less money or more money? And if it equates to less money, how are people gonna get paid? See, we want to chirp, we want to talk. We don't want to look at what the situation truly, truly is and how to strategize, to maneuver our way through it. Instead of bitching and moaning all the time, how about folks standing up and strategizing? So the Dems could win the midterms and the Dems could have somebody to go up against, a J.D. vance or Marco Rubio or D, I say a Governor DeSantis in Florida come 2028. Assuming Trump doesn't circumvent the 22nd amendment and gets and tries to run for a third term. But far be it for Stephen A. To bring that up and to say let's talk about strategy instead. Everybody want to complain and just complain. Trump don't care. He's going to do what he's going to do. What are you going to do?

[A]

Stephen A. Is saying that. So he said a lot. So Stephen A. Is saying that what he was talking about was not capitulating. So this is what we're going to do real quick. I'm going to respond to it, but let's Play what Stephen A. Said initially again. It wasn't in the clip that went out, but it was in the show. Let's play what Stephen A. Said initially again. Donnie, play not what he was on with Laura Coates, but the initial thing that he said about Jimmy Kimmel and all that. Play that again.

[C]

My only issue with Jimmy Kimmel and this whole brouhaha he finds himself inflamed with. It's not that. Oh, my God, you can't say a joke. I am incredibly alarmed by what appears to be our First Amendment rights being attacked. This is what I do for a living. I don't like that. But you know he's coming, and you know, part of the reason why is to get back at everybody who tried to take him down. They didn't try to keep him out of the White House, and that was it. They tried to throw him in prison. The man is coming, and you have to adjust accordingly. Nexdar had to adjust. All these broadcast corporations have to adjust. Madison Avenue has to adjust. Wall street has to adjust. Corporate America has to adjust. China's had to adjust. Mexico has had to adjust. France, England, Germany. Everybody has to make an adjustment. It's the real world.

[A]

I don't like it.

[C]

I'm alarmed by it. I'm scared of it. But I have to march forward, as.

[A]

Do all of you.

[C]

That's what I was saying about Jimmy Kimmel. That's what I'd say about Stephen Colbert or anybody else. Part of winning the game is knowing the game you playing and adjusting accordingly to ensure that when all is said and done, you come out on top.

[A]

Okay, so let's talk about two different things. In his response to me, Stephen A. Smith talked about the fact that I said that King and X and Evers and all of those people did not act accordingly. What I said was that they met a moment and let me explain to people what I'm talking about. There is everything that Stephen A. Smith said that they did. If you're talking about the Montgomery bus boycott, which he referenced when he was talking about Rosa Parks, that was intention to be disruptive. The intention there was to shut down the bus system of Montgomery because black people couldn't ride the bus. So their intention there was to be disruptive. That's the intention. Malcolm X's intent, the strategy, was to be disruptive. Not covertly disruptive, outwardly disruptive. Look into the video scope, tell America about itself on the backside. Have economic and social and cultural capital with your people that you can fall back on with the Montgomery bus boycott be intentionally and overtly disruptive. But what they could fall back on was the fact that if they weren't going to ride the bus to work, then they would carpool, they would walk, they would ride bikes. Whether or not we're marching across the bridge, we're disrupting things overtly so people can see that we are standing up to the times that we are in. That's what we're doing. We are protecting each other by our organizing. We're protecting each other by how we're showing up for one another. That's what we're doing. We're not in any way not being loud, obvious and directly confrontational with the power systems that are trying to keep us down. We are not snaking around the drain of white supremacy. We're ripping the plumbing out is what we're doing. But when we're organizing, we're organizing to protect each other, to make sure that you can still get to work, to make sure that you get bailed out of jail, to make sure that when you are put through the pain of revolution, that there is a community there, a community there that will protect you. That's how they acted. That's how they met the moment, which is what I said. That's what they did. There's no way to look at what Stephen A. Just said when we played it and say that that's what he was talking about. There's just no way to do that. And the reason why we interpreted it like that and Laura Coates interpreted it like that and everybody else, including some of the people that Stephen A. Smith works with. I know people, too, brother. The reason why they didn't interpret it like that is because that's not what you said, that. He didn't say that at all. And by the way, had he meant that, then he should have been more clear. Because I didn't hear any way that free speech or any of those things should be. I didn't hear any strategy from Stephen A. Smith in combating the President and his wrath and his subversion of the First Amendment. I didn't hear him say, this is what you need to do. I didn't hear him say, this is how we get. I didn't hear any of that. I heard what a lot of other people heard was the President is mad. He's not just mad at the people on the left here. He's not just mad at the political establishment here or Rhinos. He's mad at all these other types of companies, countries and react, adjust and comport yourself accordingly.

[B]

To me, I might give him a little bit. Okay, I'm going to give him a little bit from that clip, what he said on his new show, move accordingly. Okay. Open to interpretation, right? Then you go on Laura Coates show. And I think this is the missing link. So when I heard his response to you, I thought, nah, you don't get to do that. Because what Laura Coates brilliantly did was made you clarify what operate accordingly meant. She specifically asked you, she said, now wait a minute, does that mean I'm not going to lay down and take it, I'm not going to lay down and acquiesce? And she said, or do you mean I'm not to move under the radar? And then she goes on to say, because this is who you've always, I've known you to be throughout your career. You're unapologetic, you don't hold any punches. And then she says, is this different? And his answer was, yes, play it. I am fair and balanced. There's no misinterpreting what he meant.

[C]

Donnie, for certain severe critics of him, the man is coming. He's not playing around. He's unapologetic about the retribution he's willing to exact against anybody he deems harmful to his ego, his psyche, his presidency, in his own, in the own, in his own way that he may choose to materialize it.

[B]

But what does that mean then? Hold on, I want you to. But you said know this and operate accordingly. Describe though, because when you say operate accordingly, you can on the one hand know this and the response can be, and I'm not going to lay down, take it. I'm not going to stand aside and allow and acquiesce. The other side is move accordingly. Sort of under the radar in some way. Where do you, how are you defining operate accordingly? Because I know from just hearing you and following your whole career you are somebody who's been unapologetic about speaking your mind, having even unpopular opinions and not pulling any punches. So is this different than that?

[C]

It's true, yeah, because I'm fair and balanced. I'm not one sided and I'm not directing my eye at one individual consistently since 2015. That's not the kind of behavior I choose to engage in. Even people that I don't like that I've been on a record stating I don't like, I still remain fair and balanced. When they deserve to be complimented, I say so. I don't avoid complimenting them just because I may not like them. And when they deserve to be criticized. I don't hesitate to do so.

[B]

If you were gonna say it, you would have said it. She specifically asked you, you would have said it right then and there. And you go into this whole other diatribe about fair and balance. Now if you want to come back, it feels like you're trying to correct what you said before.

[A]

I'm gonna say two things, and these are actually things that are not about the issue. These are directed definitely to Stephen A. Smith.

[C]

What are you gonna do?

[A]

All of this moving under the radar? We're doing that. Like, that's something that we're doing. We're talking to people. We are getting out there and organizing with people. Not with everyone, not with every group that's asked me to organize. There are people that have asked me to come to stuff, and I'd be like, nah, that's not for me. But there are other times that we are doing work. We are doing work with some groups to get people on this podcast to talk about things. Like, we're having these conversations. We're doing this stuff. And a lot of times those people don't want to sit on this podcast, look into a camera and have a conversation about it. They don't want to do that because it puts them in harm's way. A lot of times what they say is, van Rachel, Donnie Ashley, can you talk about this? Can you try to discuss this? And we do it to the best of our ability. Ain't no hundred million dollars in that. It's not worth $100 million. There's not. There's. There's. That's not what's in that. And it's not charity, either. It's the interest of a specific political thrust that you are into. Nobody needs to be lionized or have a gold medal put around their neck. We're literally just doing what we can do. Like, we're doing what we can do. That's what we're doing. We're not. Ain't nobody, like, ain't no leading no marches, no Negroes. Nobody needs to build no statues. We're doing what we can do. But there are people who are doing this. There are people who are, in their spare time, when they can. They are trying to be interested in furthering a conversation about the conditions of people in this country. There are people that are doing that. They're doing it all the time. And when we get on the podcast or get in front of the mic, we not fucking whining. How dare you? Ain't nobody whining. I'm talking to you about what they talking to me about. And I'm talking to you about what they talking to me about. Because they asked me to. They told me to talk to you. They told me, van, they don't listen to us. They told me, van, they can't hear us. But for whatever reason, because you one day at one place, in one instance, talk to a fucking rapper that lost his fucking mind, they might listen to you. Will you speak with us? And I say, yeah, I'm a speak. If I. If I can. If I can get it out in a way that I'm a talk for you. I'm going to be. Yeah, I'll do that. I'm going to do that for you. We not gonna always agree. We're not gonna always be on the same page. But if you ask me for a hand, I'm gonna say, yeah, brother, yeah, sister, let's get to it. And I' ma fail. I'm going to fail. Sometimes I'm toxic and all fucked up, and I got the same wiring that everybody else has. No different. No different. So I'm a fuck up. I'm gonna get it wrong. But if anybody is on here thinking that, that I'm, I'm. I want to whine my way. No, I don't want to whine. I'm talking to people that tell me, man, we need somebody to talk. If you don't believe me, go ask them.

[C]

What are you going to do?

[A]

I will end it. In saying this, this entire thing, a lot of people might be asking, why is this important? Like, why is this back and forth? Why does this even matter? Because we're defining intentionality here. We're defining what it means in this moment to be who we are. And that definition is going to be different to some people, to me. I'm going to very clearly define what it is that I'm talking about. What I'm saying is there is a portion of, of American power right now that is very overtly ripping into the systems, the norms and the culture of the country and grabbing power. You can't take your power back in secret or in silence. It's impossible. It's never been done. It never will be done. The people that started this fucking country didn't do it that way. They said, you don't let us vote, we'll take your tea, we'll throw it in the fucking harbor. Come get it. That's what they said. And then they put something on the line in order to assert themselves and all of the slave Owning fat cat hypocritical ways that they, that they were, they said, our freedom is worth a fight. However that fight plays out, our freedom is worth a fight. And I'm very directly and unambiguously saying that to you guys. I'm saying your freedom is worth a fight. And just like I told you on the last podcast, everybody has different jobs. Everyone. If you are not out in the street, don't feel bad that you're not out in the street because you can support those who are. If you feel bad that you don't have a big ginormous platform, don't feel bad about that. You can support those who are, or you can start your platform and draw people in. If you feel bad that you not running for office, that you're not out there, but don't feel bad, just vote. You can do small things to be a part of change, small things. But the one thing that you can do that's the easiest thing to do is just say no on some Nancy Reagan shit. Just say no. Just say violation of due process. No. Just say violation of the First Amendment. No. Just say violation of people's rights, inalienable rights in this country. No, no. We not for it. We're not with it. We're not supporting it. Quick story here. Quick story. Because maybe Stephen A. Smith doesn't know this. I had a run in with Theo Vaughn. Not a run in, like a conversation. I'll tell you how this conversation went. Wasn't a run in. I want to describe it as being confident, like being acrimonious. This is what happened. The ovon when he's in town. I've seen him in la. In LA before. He works out at the same equinox that I work out at. Nice guy. When I say nice guy, I mean legitimately nice guy. Everybody at the gym walks around, say hi, he'll talk to you. Nice guy. Nice guy. Could see why his charisma works on his podcast. Couple weeks ago, me and my trainer, the great James, are working out. Theo Vaughn is in the gym. James introduces me to Theo Vaughn. They used to work out together when Theo Vaughn was a member at the LA Equinox. Theo is from Baton Rouge or near about there. Him and I talk. We talk about lsu. We're the same age, literally the same graduating class there in Baton Rouge. We talk about lsu, we talk about Mandeville, we talk about Southern, we talk about all of these different things. We have a very cordial back and forth, like we're chirping it up. Theo Leaves, walks away. I look at James and I go. And James goes, what? I go, I have to say something to him. He's like, what is that? I gotta say something to him. I was like, I don't want to blow at the gym, but I gotta say something to him. And James is like, well, you have to say something to him about. So walk over to Theo, and I say, hey, I've been pretty mad and disappointed at you. And all the podcasters like you, the guys that supported Donald Trump, and now look where we're at. I've been pretty upset about that. A lot of people have been upset about it. Theo looks at me and he goes, yeah, I didn't know he was gonna be like that. And I'm like, yeah, I think that's kind of what upset us, is that he's being exactly the way he said he was gonna be. Me and Theo, face to face, have a small conversation back and forth, a small conversation back and forth about that. He then leaves. But in that moment, I'll tell you guys why I did that. Two reasons. One, if I'm going to be critical of you when you're not around, if I see you, I'm going to have to address that criticism with you. That's the first thing. Number two, any disagreement that you have with someone or any question that you have with someone does not have to be delivered in fiery and direct, confrontational, antagonizing type of shit. You can just look at somebody and say, I've been disappointed in you. What you did was wrong. But if you get the chance to have that conversation with somebody, you should take it. If you get the chance to have a conversation with someone, you need to take it. You need to be a record scratcher. When everybody else is partying, you need to pull the needle off the record and be like, hey, this is not what we supposed to be doing at this time right now. There is no go along. There is no get along. There can be disagreements. There will be people that are to the left of you. There are people that will be to the right of you. But what you should be talking about needs to be undergirded with a central ethos. And that ethos is, we are about overtly dismantling systems that threaten our freedom. That's what we're doing. We can talk about how we do it. We can talk about what freedom is to us. We can talk about all of that. But we need to overtly and directly say, we are dismantling systems that threaten our freedom, and it's not time to speak ambiguously about what it means to fight that. If you got some ideas, share them with us. If you know what to do, talk to us about it. If not, what you're doing is you're interviewing people on your platform for the sake of commerce, and that's okay, too. But if you're talking to somebody that you feel like is not trying to figure it out, you're not talking to me and you're not talking to my people. So hopefully we'll get a chance to hash it out. If not, we could keep doing this because.

[B]

No, you said you're done. What you mean? What you mean keep doing this?

[A]

It's true. You're right. Hey, hey. You know what? You know what I realized while I was doing all of this stuff? I realized that there's only one group of people that I can't stand up to.

[B]

Who?

[A]

Black ladies.

[B]

Oh, you stand up to me all the time.

[A]

That's different. That's different because you like family. So, like, because you're like family, it's easier because, like, I can stand up to my sister, right? I can stand up to Ebony. Not even. Sometimes I stand up to her. Sometimes I antagonize her on purpose a lot.

[B]

But wait, which black women do you not stand up to?

[A]

Black ladies? When they're in black ladiness, it's hard for me to stand up to them. Like, I start pandering. You know how you can tell when I'm pandering to black women?

[B]

How?

[A]

I start using the word Nubian.

[B]

I've never heard you use it. So again, yeah, you don't do it to me. You're right.

[A]

I don't do it to you. But, like, let's say I say something and then black ladies get mad. They get mad at me. I immediately. Nubian queen, sister.

[B]

I would hate that.

[A]

Euphrates, Nigeria, Ghana, Benin, Togo. Like, we are together. That's how you know I'm pandering. When I start going to Timbuktu, when I start going to them places like that, I'm like, trying to say, hey, mother of the earth, queen of the stars, I apologize to you. That's the only time other than that, I'm good at saying enough of myself. But with black ladies, no, I get Nubian. I get real Nubian.

[B]

I want to see it.

[A]

You want to see me get new?

[B]

I want to see you pander. I haven't seen it.

[A]

You haven't seen me pander to black women? Never.

[B]

At least I don't remember you Think.

[A]

I should do more pandering to black women?

[B]

No.

[A]

Oh, you don't like it? What's the question? What's the difference in. When does something become a pander? Like, when are you. So when are you just being respectful, even deferential, even, like, when does something move past? I'm asking you as a black woman.

[B]

When it becomes condescending? I don't know why, but when I hear you say pander, it makes it feel like it's condescending in a way instead of out of respect. Like, I don't need you to pander. It feels like babying to me. Just. Just talk to me. Right? Like, I need you to be a certain kind of way with me. Just be. Yes. Be respectful. Yes. Have a conversation. But, like, don't.

[A]

So. But what if I was, like, giving a speech and I was like, you know, I'm talking to black America, and I was like, the only group in black America that we need to make sure we protect, make sure we uplift, Uphold Nubian queens of the desert of the now of Timbuktu, Ethiopia, the Yoruba Igbo women that we have been a part of the legacy of them walking on water through the star.

[B]

You would never say that.

[A]

What?

[B]

Stop, stop, stop, stop. You would never say that. Your first ten words were great. Wait, you would never say this. You would never say this.

[A]

So the first 10 words are not a pander? Those are not a panda?

[B]

No, no. But once you hit Nubian and walk and part the Red Sea or whatever you were saying. No, enough. Nile River. Whatever you say, let it go. It's just.

[A]

Have you ever heard something and thought that it was a panda? Have you ever heard someone.

[B]

I'm sure. I'm sure, yes.

[A]

Do you mind the pander? Does the panda bother you?

[B]

I don't want to feel like you're babying me or you're talking to me a certain way. Like, I like. You feel like you need to be delicate with me unless the situation calls for it. Right? Like, there's situations that may call for it, but otherwise, don't just talk to me.

[A]

Speaking of that respecting respect, it's funny because a lot of. A lot of niggas think that respect is a pander.

[B]

That's a. That's. That's a problem.

[A]

That's so funny.

[B]

Why did the two and two go. Yeah, like, that's a.

[A]

Sometimes they think respect is a pander. Sometimes they go like. You'll go, hey, man, don't call her a bitch.

[B]

But you know what's? Funny.

[A]

This nigga.

[B]

If you said that this nigga say.

[A]

Don'T call a bitch a bitch, nigga. What the fuck is wrong with you?

[B]

If you said that to men, they wouldn't. It would be. It would be totally different. They wouldn't think that. Right. Because it's only specifically if they laugh at that when it comes to a woman with a man, they would have no problem respecting those men that you're talking about. Not all men. I'm not gonna generalize. Dudes who laugh at.

[A]

I'm gonna do one pander a month and I'm gonna try to see if you can detect when I'm pandering. Pander detector.

[B]

Well, you've already given me some clues as to how you pander, Queen.

[A]

I mean, not Queen. Queen is cool, but when I start getting into the direct connection to the motherland.

[B]

What's the next topic? What are we talking about, Donnie?

[A]

Let's talk about Tennessee State.

[D]

Oh, yeah, let's do that. A group known as Fearless Debaters. They showed up at Tennessee State's campus without notice with filming equipment, MAGA hats, and signs. Signs reading stuff like, DEI should be illegal and deport all illegals. Now, according to the group, TSU was the first HBCU on their Fearless tour, which they're saying is going to bring honest conversation and open debate back to America's college campuses. But TSU released a statement. Any demonstration or protest activity requires advance approval and permitting, which prompted TSU police and staff to escort the Fearless Debaters off of campus. Have y' all seen these videos?

[A]

I saw him, man.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, we saw the videos.

[A]

Yeah, man.

[B]

Okay, here's my question to you. We saw the videos, Donnie. Bladed out so well of this group that started right after the killing of Charlie Kirk. They're on a tour. They've been to several campuses, right? First HBCU campus. They've been to several campuses. Have you heard of them?

[A]

No.

[B]

Say, right? How do they change it up? How do they get attention? Right? They create chaos. They go to a place that they weren't invited to, they did not have permission to, and they set up shop. I've seen two thoughts on this. Schools of thought. There are some people who love the response from the TSU students. Love that they weren't having it. They were still in posters. They were, you know, standing up to these guys. And then I saw a school of thought that was like, wish they wouldn't have given them that attention and just ignored them, because that's exactly what they came for. I'M interested and maybe you don't think, you don't subscribe to either one of them, but I'm interested as to what you think.

[A]

I think a couple of things. One, stop annoying us, man. Get off our dick.

[B]

Harassing. It's not even. That's full on harassment.

[A]

Hey, get off our dick. That's how I feel. Get off our dick.

[B]

Full on.

[A]

Stop. Stop Dick riding. This is a form of dick riding. What these. What these guys did. The fearless debaters. They are actually the fearless dick riders. Get off our dick. Leave us alone. Like. Leave us alone. Get off our dick. Like they trying to. They go into school. First of all, you didn't even have your paperwork right. You can get your permits, do all of that stuff the next time. These thugs should be arrested. I can't believe these thugs would show up on a school where kids are trying to go and get their education and try to disrupt the American educational system by setting up tables and going through all of this. These thugs who can't even think and read straight enough to be able to fill out the required paperwork in order to do this type of thing. That's what the real. They broke the rules. They broke the rules. They should be arrested. That's the first thing. Number one, get your shit straight. Secondly, you never know the consequences of dick riding. Get off our dick. Leave us alone. Think we stupid? You going in there to rile people up. What do you want me to say about their reaction? What do you want me to say? It's not the right time for this. And everybody has the right to emotion. I watched a thousand some odd white people rush the capital of the United States of America. These are grown people with 401ks kids. One of the guys that runs a Baton Rouge grocery chain. These are business owners, fully formed brains. I watch these people run into the Capitol. If you think I'm about to take a half second to make a moral judgment on a bunch of college kids who are being purposefully and intentionally antagonized by a group of white guys. You think I'm about to give this one moral second of my brain? You're wrong. I've lost the ability. It's out. Once that happened and all of those people got pardoned. No. Stop dick riding. Leave us alone. We not. We know you fucking with us. We know you fucking with us. Leave us alone. Leave us the fuck alone. How's that? It's not the right time to be fucking around.

[B]

It's never. It's not the right. It's not even Just because of what to say to the. It's just, period, stop harassing us. That's literally what I. I mean, you know exactly what you're doing. And the purpose for it was so you could be sitting on television and News Nation, you could be sitting on. Covered on television at Fox News, using us to create chaos to what they were calling race riots to. Basically, it was just a moment again for them to be racist. And this is exactly what I asked Ryan about. I said to Ryan, I don't remember specifically, Ryan Grimm last week. I don't. I don't remember specifically how I worded the question, but I talked about the legacy of Charlie Kirk. And if you were basically going to have imitators and copycats. And so, you know, it's one thing to praise free speech and everybody and people have the right to free speech and all of that. Right. But it's another thing when you're using the opportunity to demean, dehumanize, and incite people to act in a racist way. That is what these guys are. They just started this. They're on a tour. They were getting absolutely no attention. So what do they do? They go and antagonize black people. And this is a byproduct from that type of. From the prove me wrong stance. You got people doing it out here, rogue. They're the ones who are creating the riot, not black people. They're basically standing up for themselves and saying, hey, get off our campus. You're not supposed to be here. But they're using it to fuel the fire and to add to the race wars. And so when I. When I brought to you the two questions about which one would it rather be, I don't even know how to answer because I wouldn't dare tell students who feel they are being harassed to just ignore them. I wouldn't dare. I say, respond how you want to respond. If you saw them on campus and you wanted to ignore them, great. If you saw them in campus and you wanted to tell them to get the fuck out. But by all means, that's free speech as well.

[A]

Yeah, break out. Like, I'm gonna tell everybody to consider your personal freedom and all of that stuff while you're doing stuff, I'm always going to tell people to make sure that you consider not just the now, but the next week and all of that. I'm always saying, break out, break out, get out, get out, break out. Like it just break out. I just want. I want to. I want people to consider this world. What if you stop fucking with us. Just think about that. Think about a world like. I want to do like a movie trailer. Imagine a world where you didn't fuck over black people. Stop fucking with us.

[B]

What would they do, man? They always want to say we're talking about race. They're always. You bring race into it. You make everything about race. No, actually, you guys do. You will not leave us alone. If there was a world where they didn't do that, what on earth would they do?

[A]

I don't know. Look, how about this? You want to have all of these different battle of ideas and all of that stuff, go set it up. But anyone that wants to come engage you in ideas, I think that's great. I don't mind it. Ever, at any time, ever, where someone in good faith wants to have a conversation about something. But you came with signs and hats and all of that, trying to antagonize people. We're not stupid. I know the people that follow you and think that this is cool. It's not stupid. It's not. Whatever. I don't. It is, leave black people alone. Leave them alone. These kids are trying to go to school. It's so funny. It's like. This is the funny thing about it. They went to a college. Mm. They went to a place where. And this is kind of the conundrum, they went to a place where, quote, unquote, the kids are doing it the right way. They're going to be educated. Whatever odds they had to beat to be in college to pay for it, to go to school, they're there. These are people that are thinking about their futures, their goals, their dreams. They're on a college campus. And what you are doing is interrupting their ascension. And because of that, you got a paper cup thrown at your car. Come on, man. You're embarrassing your ancestors. You're embarrassing your ancestors. They are. You know why they're embarrassing? I say this all the time. Don't half step. It's Don't. To the people that want to do stuff like this. Don't embarrass your ancestors. Your ancestors didn't engage in hundreds of years of ruthless slavery, segregation and Jim Crow for you to kind of be racist. Fuck that. You're better than that. Go to the campus and just break out the N word. Put the N word on the signs. Stop fucking hiding your hands. Just go for. It's just. I'm serious, man.

[B]

I just am so frustrated with the whole conversation. I'm with you. I agree with everything you say. You're right. Just be it. I'M always like that. If you want to be racist, just be full blown racist so we know how to handle you accordingly. But please also stop acting like and hiding behind the First Amendment that you're just out here trying to have conversation or incite debate when the reality is you just want to be a fucking star. That's it. You want your name out there. You don't care about the cause, you don't care about the issues you're talking about. You are trying to be the next superstar in your group of people, in your community, in your conservative world, and we're not here for it. We're also not trying to make you superstars. That's the other thing I just want to say. I don't want to add to it.

[A]

Donnie, let's get to Jimmy. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai, who says you can't be the topic of conversation for all the right reasons. The Hyundai Tucson Hybrid pairs bold presence with advanced technology and sleek style. It's everything you didn't know you needed in an SUV and then some. Okay, Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by ebay. We all have that piece, the one that's so you. You've basically become known for it. And if you don't yet fashionistas, you'll find it on ebay. That Miu Miu red leather bomber, the Cousteau Barcelona cowboy top, or that Patagonia fleece in the 2017 colorway. All these finds are all on ebay, along with millions of more main character pieces backed by authenticity guarantee. Ebay is the place for pre love, loved and vintage fashion ebay things people love.

[D]

Yeah, the Jimmy Kimmel Jimmy Kimmel Live returned. This was Tuesday and they averaged 6.2 million viewers in that first airing. And that's according to preliminary figures from Nielsen. They're going to get more updated numbers shortly. And then nexstar and Sinclair Power company said that the show that they said before the show that they'd continue to preempt it across the affiliates that they own. And then the YouTube video of the monologue of the opening show has drawn more than 15 million views and is Jimmy Kimmel's highest viewed monologue.

[A]

Donald Trump responded. He said, I can't believe ABC Fake News gave Jimmy Kimmel his job back. The White House was told by ABC that his show was canceled. The White House was told by abc.

[B]

We don't know if that's true, but yes, we keep it.

[A]

I believe something happened between then and now because his audience is gone and his talent was never there. Why would they want someone back who does so poorly, who's not funny, and who puts the network in jeopardy by playing 99% positive Democrat garbage? He is yet another arm of the dnc. And to the best of my knowledge, that would be a major illegal campaign contribution. Think about that. Think about that sentence right there. Come back to that. I think we're going to test out ABC on this. Let's see how we do. Last time I went after them, they gave me 6 million, $16 million. This one sounds even more lucrative. A true bunch of losers. Let Jimmy Kimmel rot in his bad ratings. Your thoughts on what the President had to say in response to Jimmy's triumphant return?

[B]

Well, the last sentence absolutely turned out to not be true, seeing that he had 6.2 million viewers, 15 million on YouTube and counting. I had to watch it on YouTube. I was in Nashville on Wednesday. Couldn't watch it live, couldn't get it. I will say that I've been more than ever, you know, I'm not one to be in my DMs and going back and forth with people lately. I have been with everything that's been happening this month.

[A]

What was that you love that you've been talking about you at least once in the last five shows. You've talked about the battles that you fight with the people.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying this month. And I'm exhausted. I don't know how you used to do it all the time, but one of the things I'm seeing is the. I guess I just have a lot of conservative people that follow me or somebody sends it to them and then they want to come at me. But one of the conversations is about the government's involvement with ABC and forcing their hand and making threats. And a lot of the people that I've talked to in regards to the subject are like, the government's not involved. One person said to me that would require collusion. And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And I'm like, they're flat out saying it. You're hearing from the fcc, the threats, you're hearing from Trump. And this is just another thing to add to it, that Trump is basically threatening abc, Disney and saying exactly what it is that he's going to do. The government is absolutely trying to be involved with what is played on the airways and hiding under the public interest. This is absolutely. This is all tied together. All tied together was. I was actually waiting for Trump's Response on this.

[A]

I was too.

[B]

Especially when.

[A]

So remember when we talked about organizations that do terrible things and claiming responsibility for them? What I'm really interested to see now is Donald Trump has claimed responsibility for Jimmy being off of his show.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He's claimed responsibility for it. This is what we wanted. I can't believe it didn't go our way. We're gonna go further. Part of this game. Look, I understand what people are gonna say. The accountability game, the you're a hypocrite game, it doesn't work that much anymore. Because the bar is in hell. Right? Because you can't. They don't care. Like, once you pardon all of the January 6th riders, then what more you said it. Right. But just for the sake of it, anyone who said that the president and the FCC weren't together in order to go after a political critic of theirs, just remind them that the president just said that he was. Just remind them of that. Now, as Jimmy said in his monologue, there were a lot of conservative voices that maybe it was out of sense of self preservation or maybe for some political consistency did come out and say that this was too far. This is a clear loss for Trump's grab of power centralized in the executive. A clear loss for that. That's a big L. However, Donald Trump is clear that he is an authoritarian. He's clear. He's being clear here. So anybody that spins or lives in the lies or the laundering of his reputation, this is clear evidence. And you always have to index things like this. Not that it'll make a difference in their argument, but just when we're talking about who was on the side of authoritarianism, who was on the side of the president being able to pick who gets to speak in America. We have clear evidence here that the president, that anyone who doesn't read this in a way that they don't. Okay, cool. I wanna ask you something. There is a narrative that's come out of this from a lot of people that are wondering why Joy Ann Reid, Tiffany Cross, even Colin Kaepernick, people like that didn't get this same type of support seeing this all around when they were at war with big corporate interests who wanted to silence them. Joanne Reed was fired from her show, Tiffany Cross was fired from her show. Obviously, Colin Kaepernick was silenced and kicked out of the NFL, never to return. And they're wondering what are the differences in the Kimmel situation? Why was this so successful? And why the joann Reeds and Tiffany Crosses and Colin Kaepernicks didn't get that same type of support. Do you see any through line between these two situations?

[B]

Well, I mean, you just named all black people one, but I think, but the, my first thought was, did Stephen Colbert get it? And I, of course, you asked me first. I'm like, well, they're black. Obviously, you know, people were not paying. You're not, it's going to be hard pressed for you to find non black people to be as angry about what's happening to black people that are front of camera in the media. But Stephen Colbert, it was like, yeah, people were upset about it. But I think this is what I, I will say is a through line. Obviously the black part of it, I'm not going to ignore that. But what I think the reason Stephen Colbert people were upset just like they were at least black people with Joy Ann Reid and Tiffany Cross as well, is that they were able, networks and decision makers were able to hide behind the, they don't have the ratings. People aren't watching. It costs too much money. Like they were able to hide behind that. I feel like. Whereas with Kimmel they couldn't necessarily use that because of, because not just of how he was fired, but. Well, no, it is because of how he was fired. The tie of Brendan Carr coming out. If Brendon Carr, if Brendan Carr had not said what he said on Benny Johnson's podcast, they could have said, well, his ratings aren't doing as well. Well, we're downsizing, whatever it may be, in the same way they did with them, but because of the direct attack and Brendon Carr is trying to walk it back now, right? Oh, that's not what I meant. That's the Dems taking it out of proportion. Totally blames it on the left. Brendan Carr hadn't done what he did. I think Jimmy Kimmel might have been a little bit different. Well, it would have been different.

[A]

I agree. I think that whereas two prominent black women, prominent black women losing their shows in the timeframe that it happened, I think Tiffany was like last year or two years ago and Joy was just recently, sometime this year, this year, two prominent black women losing their shows on that network should make people ask questions about msnbc, about what's happening at the top of msnbc. Just why, how, you know, in a space where black ladies a lot of times aren't allowed, Nubian queens aren't allowed to exist and thrive in those spaces. Right. To have two of them, prominent ones lose their jobs in X amount of time, everyone should be like, what's going on? Like, that's true.

[B]

Let's also not remember that. Forget that the president of MSNBC was a black woman who also stepped down at the top of January.

[A]

Right. That's a little.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

No, there are people that are going to say there's some things going on behind the scenes there.

[B]

I've. I've. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what you're saying.

[A]

I don't know. Yeah, I'm not. I'm. Look, okay, look. All right. There's some things going on behind the scene there. Okay, okay. That's all I'm saying. Some things going on behind the scenes there. But what I will say is that, of course there's investigation that needs to happen here. I think this one was flagrant because of Brendan Carr. That's it. Not even to belabor it, this one was flagrant because of Brittney Carr. Brittany Carr, like, went on there and said, you know, silver or lead. He literally went on there and did the Pablo Escobar joint. And so it was so egregious, so flagrant that people got into it and they automatically went. There's. It's one thing. And this is another way. A very. It's something that's insidious, particularly about the political, the racial. The racial sociopolitical arm of this. It. They. This is always layered, and this is the mistake that was made by Brendan Carr. They didn't layer this. Right, right. They didn't. Normally the way this is done is with a pill pocket. You know, you take the pill, you put it inside of the deal, you give it to your dog, your dog eats it, and then they get whatever is out of it. Normally they do that. Normally they say, it's actually about this one. It's really about this. It's actually about this one. It's really about this. He was very direct in the fact that they had a political enemy on the air for whatever reason, and they wanted to get that enemy off the air, said it too straight out and gave people no ambiguity about it. And you'd have to be a moron to believe that he meant anything other than what he explicitly said. So that was the mistake. I will still say, though, that the question about those three individuals and about people like that, we have to keep asking and interrogating that question, because maybe if we had said, we are going to mobilize, we are going to stop watching the NFL, we are going to stop watching this, we're all going to stop doing. Maybe if we had more solidarity, we would have been able to make differences in those other situations, maybe if we'd have been able to do that, we'd be able to get some wins. And it's important to get wins. I want everybody to just. Seriously, Jimmy, being back on the air is a triumph. I'm gonna do the Kaepernick thing again, and I'm sorry. I apologize. Nubian.

[B]

Just come on with it. What is it that you're gonna say?

[A]

I bend the knee. Rachel Nubian. Okay. I've been the name.

[B]

What is it?

[A]

Okay. I want people to think about this and just transport yourself to a place that I'm about to take you. Think about what it meant for Jimmy Kimmel to be back on the air. What it meant for Jimmy Kimmel to be back on the air was that the force that was trying to take Jimmy Kimmel off of the air was beaten by the will of people that signals, this is all capitalism, guys. This is all Disney. This is all stuff. But it signaled that people beat tyranny. Jimmy, who had an opinion Then it was kicked off the air that people got together and said, no, you can't do that. And they had to bend the knee to you. Now, don't be. Don't. Nubian. Now I want you to think about a world where Colin Kaepernick runs back out on an NFL field. Think about what it would have meant to be able to say they tried to take his career and they couldn't do it. That we got busy enough to where his career was saved by the people.

[B]

Can I ask you a question?

[A]

I'm dying to hear it.

[B]

Do you go, I know you believe obviously everything that Kaepernick stood for, which I actually do too, even though I get a bad rap about that. But do you feel like you keep going back to it because you feel bad that you started watching the NFL?

[A]

Mm. Mm. I love this question. When I tell you this is a great question. Cause I think this is a part of it, a fantastic question. Because I think there is some shame that people have. I think. And this is the part of it. And I actually told Nessa this. And I wish that Colin Kaepernick and Nessa were in more conversation with us. I wish we heard from them more. I wish we were able to talk to them more. I wish there was more community that we felt and we shared with them. I wish that sometimes the things that I talk to them about, there are. I'm rarely ever critical of them. But I will say I have to share that. I do think that you have to endeavor into community with People, you have to make people believe that you are a part of what it is that they're doing. They've stood up and sacrificed a shit ton. That's true. But it can't be me or somebody else talking about the condition of how things are going. At certain point, people have to feel the vulnerability and the connection with you in order to feel like what's happening to you is happening to them. And the thing with Jimmy Kimmel is that Jimmy Kimmel is in people's homes every single day. And so they feel, when this is. They feel like this is happening to somebody that they know. Right. Because of the way he communicates and all of that stuff. And they, okay, cool, all of that. But your part of it, the part that you just named, I think that's a part of it for a lot of people. I think a lot of people in 2018 or 2017 or whatever it was, there was a cultural righteousness and it was on trend almost to be like, fuck the NFL. We don't want to do this. But it was also hard. It was a hard thing to do because they own a whole day of the week. I remember it's so funny, one time it was a friend of mine who was like a party promoter. I tried to get a party started because there's the day parties that happened in la. It was a beauty in Essex day party that happened in la and it was the best day party in the history of la. I don't care what nobody says, it was fantastic. Shout out to the other ones. But the beauty and Essex one was the best one ever. And I was like, you know what should happen? We should. I just floated it. I didn't really. As long as should happen, we should do a day party. We should continue to day party throughout the NFL season. Normally that's. That's going to stop when the NFL comes back because you can't compete with the NFL. Just one of the reasons why it's also a summer thing. But we should continue to day party when the NFL is back. We should give people something to do other than the NFL. And I didn't say this and take this to anybody like it was a big deal. I just threw the idea out there to people. And people that understand how humans move knew that as soon as the NFL came back, people weren't going to want to move on Sundays. They weren't going to want to move. It's a whole thing. They've been doing this since they were 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 years old, right? It's a hard thing to bring. There are. I think there is a part of this. The reaction to the Kaepernick thing is people who, at least at first were happy that they didn't have to do it anymore. And part of the way that they take it out on that family is because they feel, like, off the hook. There's a little bit of shame there. There's a little bit of shame from some people, not everyone. And I think people feel shame that, like, it wasn't something that we could keep doing. So they looked for reasons why they were wrong, why they went about it the wrong way, why it couldn't have been different, all that. I don't feel that way. I don't watch a shit ton of NFL. It's forever changed, Right? I don't look, I don't look at it that way, but I do understand that sentiment. I do understand people that both can't let it go because of the guilt that they feel and also want to look for reasons that they went about it the wrong way in order to make their return to the NFL feel a little bit better. And I think that's kind of the category that you fall in.

[B]

Oh, we out.

[A]

But I get it. But honestly, though, seriously, I really thought about that.

[B]

I was like, see, See, I participated in the Kaepernick in the dialogue. It really did make me think. I'm like, hmm. And I directed the question at you. But it really could be just people in general about how they handled the situation. Cause we all. I even started out strong.

[A]

Yeah, it was. And then, you know, people came along. We're not gonna get into the whole thing. I told you, you ain't have to do it no more. You didn't do it no more. It's fine. It is.

[B]

But it became harder for me, though, when he got the settlement. I mean, I was already back watching it, but I'm just saying. And then, you know, this is where. This is where we. This is where we. We part ways.

[A]

But we don't.

[B]

Because I've. No, because I, I, I always say, why do you want to go back in? When you accuse them of something? Which I agree, but which I believe is true. You got paid from that, right? Like, they had to pay you because you had enough evidence to prove exactly the thing that you were asserting. They pay you, and then you do, like, stuff about how it's slavery and all these things, and you want to go back. It's just a question I will forever have and I will never understand it because I'm not a football player. I've never played in the NFL. And it has never been what I've. The dream that I've always wanted to do my well being. It's never been that. So I can't even. It's just a question I have. I'll never fully understand it.

[A]

Yeah. So I did the same thing on TMZ when the settlement came. We. We talked about this before. We're going back over shit. But I'll say this though. This goes back to what I was talking about before. Now. There are probably parts of that settlement that probably can't be discussed because it's like, sure, it's a settlement, it's a settlement. Right. So there's probably parts of that settlement that can't be discussed. But there is a part of this that's just strictly about narrative and messaging. It's just about saying, hey, this is a workplace dispute that was settled. And it doesn't have anything to do with this thing over here. Because when people are in between thoughts, they make up their own version of it. I said this before. Some of us have made up a version of this where we. The settlement was going to destroy the cba, bring the NFL, the case was gonna destroy the cba, bring the NFL to its knees, and start a whole new reality in the NFL. The only problem is they never said that. That was what I thought and what other people thought and what we were kicking around. So when the settlement happened, what's going on, and I do think a lot of people feel that way. As far as all of the other stuff, the criticizing of the league, the slavery part, you still wanna play all of that stuff? That's the kind of stuff that will come directly out of conversation. Cause when I. Sometimes you, like you have situations with people or you disagree with them on things, or it looks like something that they did is. Exists at cross purposes with itself and you ask them and it just kind of makes more sense. You just go, oh, okay, like, like why? Why do you want to be a part of a club that doesn't want you? This is why. This is why I feel so you know that that's. That's kind of the deal there. So before we leave, we have to talk about something real quick. Something's happening here at the office, Rachel. And only you can Spotify. Spotify.

[B]

I don't know if it's gonna be me.

[A]

Only you can help us.

[B]

I wouldn't know how to. Well, go ahead.

[A]

Only you can help us. Like, so just let people know Something here. You know, we have a community here at Spotify. People, we walk around, we talk, we get a bagel, we get a mocha, we, you know, hold in, we talk about the Dodgers, we have everybody. And all of that is based on trust here at Spotify. Slash the ringer. And in a major way, that trust was broken, fractured, maybe never to be. Never to be fixed until we get to the bottom of this screening room here at Spotify.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And in this screening room, you ever been inside of it before? Yeah, we did the thing.

[B]

I have. Yes, I have.

[A]

We did the. We did. What do we did? You people there?

[B]

Yeah, the movie watching.

[A]

So inside of the screen room, there's all kinds of different technology. And there's a PS5 that was in there. Now when College Football 25 came out, we used the PS5. We played it, we screened it, we had a little PS5 tournament in there. Everybody was in there. Me, Jamie, Deontay, the whole night. Everybody was in there. We have fun. PS5. The PS5 is for the ringer. It's for the ringer. Spotify, okay? That's what the PS5 is for. We use the PS5 for different things. Rachel, the PS5 was stolen.

[B]

Well, why wasn't it locked up? Why was it just sitting out? Why y' all keep. That's the equivalent of keeping your doors unlocked. Who would just leave a PS5 just out?

[A]

The PS5 was stolen. Okay? Apparently there's some place that the PS5 was supposed to be and it wasn't in that place. Like a gear locker. But the gear locker is not locked up. Who would think that somebody would come and steal the PS5? The PS5, not like grow legs and fucking walk away. Yet it did. Now listen, a couple of weeks ago, they were looking for the PS5. And when they were looking for the PS5, you know what I told them? I said, somebody stole it. Somebody stole the fucking PS5. And they were like, who's gonna steal the PS5? Actually was Jomi. Jomi was the one that was going, man, who's gonna fuckin steal the PS5? The fuck are you talking about, huh? Who's gonna fucking steal the bs? Fine. I mully on. He kept saying that. And I was like, well, y' all can't find it? Somebody jacked it. I'm from a place where jackings happen. People steal shit. They jack your shit. Last week I talked to John and I say, hey man, what's the Update on the PS5? And John says, we bought another one. Which lets me Know that they have now come to grips with the fact that the last PS5 was stolen.

[B]

Are there not cameras around?

[A]

Apparently not in working order. Apparently not ones that can stop capers. But let me tell you what's going to happen now over the next couple of months, just like we were the ones who found out the face of the ringer. We are the only podcast.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Start with him at the Ringer Spotify that can find out what happened to the PS5 of the ringer where it went. They have to buy another PS5 so it could do this fortnight thing. And I want to know what happened to the PS5. Everyone's walking around like, oh, it's like it's not a big deal. Oh my God. What happened? What happened? What happened? What happened? It's not about capitalism. It's not about the fact that the corporation could buy another one. It's about trust. And I want to know because right now I leave my wallet out. I walk around the whole nine. Then Donnie put at the bottom Van. Tough on crime. Lathan.

[B]

Wait.

[A]

Van. Law and order. Lathan.

[B]

I want locking this one up.

[A]

They are. They now put a lock on and now they locking up the PS5. I'm going to have people come in on this podcast once a month and we're going to interview them about what happened to the PS5. We're going to, we're going to interview them. I want to know where it went.

[B]

Let me tell you why I'm not going to be a good partner on this one.

[A]

You're the prosecutor of the ringer. You're the Kamala Harris of the ringer.

[B]

I don't know who works there and who doesn't. So where, where do I start? I'll be talking to people that be like, we don't work at the ringer.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Okay. Let me tell you, I would be. I would waste your time. I wouldn't even know. And I'll be honest with you. I. I don't know if I could tell the difference between a PS5 and was it a 4 PS4 that came before it? I don't know. I'm not the one.

[A]

This. What this. I'm going to put all the information together and I'm going to bring it to you. I want everybody, this is the only time I call. This is the only time I'll call for Reddit and everybody to get involved. Everyone, I want everyone that is a part of ringer culture to put together a suspects list of who you think would be most likely are we on it. You know what I told them? I told them a couple of days ago I would have to be considered a suspect.

[B]

You would.

[A]

I'm in the office.

[B]

Likely. Which would be great. Which would be amazing for me to be the one to take it.

[A]

I'm in the office. What'd you say?

[B]

Because no one would suspect me. I don't know anybody. I don't know what it looks like. Well, this is cute.

[A]

It. It. I have my own PS5, but I'm here every day. I'm the one who called this out. I'm the one who started this. I'm not saying I'm not a suspect, but I need everyone out there to make a suspects list for what happened to the fucking PS5. Where'd it go? It didn't fucking grow legs and walk out. Office. Somebody has it. Someone took.

[B]

How long has it been missing?

[A]

It's like a month almost.

[B]

It's in the win. Whoever took it, sold it. Check. We need to be checking. Anybody got new jewelry? New shoes? Oh.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

You know what I mean? A new trip. Took a vacation.

[A]

Now, I will say that the PS5 is $500. So you're not gonna eventually get rich off the PS5.

[B]

Okay? But you could buy it. You could buy something new.

[A]

Did you see Kamala Harris on Rachel Maddow?

[B]

No.

[A]

Didn't watch it.

[B]

I didn't look at. I didn't look at any of that because I thought we were gonna do it all.

[A]

Yeah. So we didn't get a chance. We were very ambitious about getting through the book. We got stuff to do. We didn't get through the book. We're not doing a Kamala Harris book today. We'll do it on Monday. I'll be finished with the book by Monday. Kamala Harris was on Rachel Maddow, and I only got two words for it.

[B]

It's everywhere.

[A]

Not great.

[B]

But from who? From Kamala.

[A]

From Kamala. Not great.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I'm gonna give a caveat with this. The caveat with her not being great on Rachel Maddow is that she's talking about a lot of things, and it must be difficult to talk about. When you guys hear bad podcasting, it's normally from people who are trying to ride the fence. If you are blissfully wrong or blissfully right, it normally makes for good podcasting because you're saying what you're saying with conviction. That's the most important thing. For people that say that Kamala Harris is burning down the party on the way out of the party, I Don't think that that's the case. And I think I can tell that by that interview. That interview tells me that even though she's not gonna run for governor of California, that she believes that she still has a political future. Because the reality is everything that she put in that book is one thing. I'm still reading the book. But when she's been asked about it and talked about it, there's still some hemming and hawing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

There's still some politicking. There's still some. Let me tell you guys what happened and really kind of explain why we weren't successful. But at the same time, let me tell you that there are still things that I believe in. You can tell that she's still thinking about her future 100%.

[B]

That also was the same thing for the View. I felt like that was the same conversation I was getting from the View. I try not to watch too much because I'm not done with the book. I am seeing the response that's coming out mostly from the Democrats, the rumblings of them not being too pleased by it. So I agree with you 100%, some hemming and ha going on there. But from what I've read so far, this is all I'll say I said on this podcast, I was like, I don't know how she could write this book and keep going with her political career because I don't think she can go be the governor of California because of where she's been. So to me, the only natural thing is president. But from so far from reading the book, I feel like she's gonna run. Yeah, but that's just. But you know, that's just where I am right now.

[A]

Yeah, everything seems to be pointing towards her belief that she has a future in politics. So everything seems to be pointing towards that. And if she has a future, the future's gonna be at president. I think this is more of an. The book is more of an explanation as to how things went the way they did. And it's a shakeup of the Democratic Party. And I'll say this, the Democratic Party needs to be shaken up and eat the shakes. But I'm not finished with the book. So I'll give you guys my entire. I don't like these books. I told you guys already, I don't like. I need policymakers and difference makers to make differences. And you know, the book to me can be looked at as a self serving thing. However, I am starting to kind of see that a part of her writing this book might literally be to get all of this out of her so that she can rejuvenate herself and get ready for something in the future. Maybe just answer all of the questions one fell swoop. It's 25 now. It's not till 28. Let it be out there. Here are my friends. Here are my enemies. This is where I stand. No ambiguity. Get it all out and go for it.

[B]

Control the narrative. That's exactly what this is. Now, the messy side of me loves this. I'm not going to lie. The mess inside of me is like, tell it all.

[A]

Yeah. Tariq Withers is on the podcast right now. The star of him this episode is brought to you by Paramount Plus.

[D]

Sylvester Stallone is back as the ultimate.

[A]

Kingpin, Dwight Manfredi, in the original hit series Tulsa King, now streaming exclusively on Paramount plus this season, as Dwight's kingdom expands, his enemies close in. Now he faces his most dangerous adversaries in Tulsa yet, forcing him to fight to protect his empire.

[D]

Watch the new season of Tulsa King.

[A]

Now Streaming exclusively on Paramount Plus. Learn more at paramountplus.com this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. The movie is him. It is sparking all kinds of discussion. Is in theaters now. It stars Marlon Wayans. But more importantly, in stars the man that's joining us right now, Tariq Withers. Join us on Higher Learning. How are you doing, my brother?

[E]

I'm doing well. You know, I'm alive, woke up. I get to talk to y' all about the film. So I'm grateful. It's a time.

[A]

So let's have a conversation. Cause I wanna talk about. We met. I don't know if you remember, but we met.

[E]

Yeah. That the center's screening in la.

[A]

Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something about him, about Tariq. So when we met, he was with the homie that played. He was with the homie in White Lotus. What's the guy's name?

[E]

Nicholas Duvernay.

[A]

Nicholas Duvernay. Who played. He played in White Lotus. It's a big deal. White Lotus had just came out. Everybody was like, whatever, whatever. I'm talking to Tariq. Cause I'm not remembering the Atlanta thing. And I'm talking to them. I'm talking to them, like, yeah, man, you Know your homie is a big deal and everything's happening. And then he talks to me so humbly, he goes, yeah, you know, we're friends. We're best friends. We support each other. He's doing his thing right now, and the whole deal is. And everybody's coming up and they're talking to him because literally the White Lotus finale had just happened as the singer's premiere. And then I'm on the road a little while after that, and I look up and I see a billboard and it's you on the billboard. And I'm like, you talking about, yeah, the homie's up right now. We gotta support the homie. Meanwhile, at this point, your movie is probably shot, it's probably Post is done, and you know that you are starring in this major movie that's coming out, and you didn't say nothing about it. You didn't even say, yeah, I just let, you know, you know, my own shit dropping later on. So he up right now, but I'm coming for them in the fall. I'm coming. You didn't do none of that. And when I saw it, I was like, oh, shit, look at this.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

How does it feel to have it out? Your name on the marquee? You're, you're a movie star. You have led a film.

[E]

How does it feel, you know, speaking to that experience? You know, I think it's always good to, like, let, let your homeboy shine. And, you know, I'm really proud of the work that he put in with that show. And we really, you know, are on the up and up together, you know, like, I was sleeping on air mattress in his living room, and, you know, I, I, I'm not one to beat my chest, you know, I let the, I just do my thing and, you know, the work dictates itself. But, yeah, it's, it's a surreal experience. Like, I try to avoid them billboards when I'm in LA because it's, I don't know, it's something you dream of, but then you just, like, start reflecting, like, okay, why do I, like, what do I really want out of this? You know, And I just, like, you know, it put a lot of pressure on my shoulders that, you know, I just really hope people resonate with the movie rather. But yeah, I'm blessed to have such an iconic billboard that, you know, Justin Tippen, he, he curated that where, you know, he has a lot of references to, like, iconic sports moments. If you get to see the movie, there's this one last Supper scene. Yep. And that. But Alan Iverson did a photo shoot like that, you know, and then that poster is to commemorate, you know, Michael Jordan's like, basketball pose. But, yeah, it's just. It's like a bit of a. Some imposter syndrome. But, you know, I'm working to, like. I'm working with my therapist and just myself to just be like, I'm exactly where I need to be and I deserve to be here. So, yeah, I.

[B]

What I have appreciated is how much fun you're having on this entire press tour. Whether it's a TikTok, whether it's you just wilding out at Jennifer Hudson show, you just really just seem to be throwing. Taking in all the moment. And, like, Van just told the story of being humble. What is it that you're learning yourself as you're about yourself as you're on this journey and with the movie and with the attention and all of it.

[E]

Yeah, you know, it's a stressful process, starting a career. And I think a part of me was like, holding on tight to, you know, everything needs to be perfect and xyz. But, you know, doing interviews with Marlo Waynes, you start seeing the freedom. You start seeing the freedom of him holding on to who he authentically is. And, you know, I think I was experiencing a certain level of, like, grief of not. Not being the person I truly am because, you know, oh, a camera's in your face. And xyz. And then I just started, like, letting go and allowing, like, myself to have fun in these. In these interviews, because you're always in the minds of other people. But, you know, who I truly am, I come from a place of, you know, fun, like goofing off and joy. And I think you have to have that balance, especially with the film like this, where it's so. So intense and it brings up some. Some themes that is, quite frankly, hard to talk about. And so I think allowing people to see who I truly am is the best form of marketing. And I don't need to, like, specifically curate things because the more more I hold on, the more I hold on because I watched some interviews, my first interviews, because, you know, the live interviews are, like, the scariest. And I just see, like, kind of constricted a little bit. And, you know, as the press tour went on, I found that flow state. And, you know, we just finished our UK stop, and those interviews, I was just, like, free. Cause there's. We don't have anything to lose. And having Marlon to, like, really show me the way has been helpful.

[A]

Man, did I always wonder, did this film take a psychological toll on you? This is for people who don't understand the depth of the film. You're watching a sports horror film, but you're also watching a film that deals with cosmic entities, demonic forces, how those forces are wrapped up in capitalism, existing in this sports league, like the sports league itself. And the team, the San Antonio Saviors, is almost a. It's almost like a metaphor or a conduit for this being. I don't wanna give away too much, but it is a deeply, deeply disturbing and psychologically provoking film. As somebody who's the star of that movie, how do you safeguard yourself while you're making it?

[E]

Yeah, to answer your question, it does put a lot of psychological, mental, emotional, spiritual and physical pressure when you bring a story like this, because like you said, it ties into those them. I started saying, like, you don't really watch him, you survive it, you know, because it looks into the reality of, you know, the world. And I think that's the iconic thing about working with Jordan Peele and Justin Tippen and Monkeypaw Universal Studios is we're able to, you know, articulate those themes in an organic way to make you think and question. But yeah, I think filming this movie was one of the hardest things I ever tapped into because I had to physically get into that physique of a NFL bound quarterback. But I think with that comes the mental, emotional, psychological hurdles to bring this story to life. And the perfectionism was one thing that weighed on my shoulders and doing the athletes justice and being a vessel, you know, I think that's why I'm in this industry of acting is, you know, I ask God to use me as a vessel to amplify messages to that can translate, you know, generations or, you know, even races. And yeah, I think with all this on your shoulders, it's only natural to have the mental and psychological rigor. But yeah, I think having a village, having a healthy relationship with your director to discuss things. If you have a chance to speak to Justin Tipping, he's a savant and what he pulls from and how he's able to articulate himself and having somebody like Marlon on set to always bring the joy rather than living in that sadness. Because a cool thing about working with Marlon is you. You see the pain and struggles that you want to go through, but you don't have to live in that. And, you know, I used to feel like I had to live in that sadness. But, you know, he looks at things and finds the funny in it, and he lives in that space. And that translated to me. And so even filming the movie, you start to see me gain more light because, yeah, it is an opportunity for me to prove myself. Cameron Cade's story is similar to mine where, you know, you're given an opportunity and you're not. You're not about to miss. So, yeah, that's a little bit about that process.

[B]

I always wonder when you see a role like this, as you described, that's so heavy and so intense, and you just kind of touched on it a little bit. When you talked about the similarity between your journeys, when you read the script, was there hesitation on your part? Were you like, I don't know if this is for me or immediately. Did you see that similarity in your. No, this is something I can do, I want to do. Because of the connection you felt?

[E]

Yeah, I think it was never. This isn't for me. It was, am I able to step into the shoes of this character and bring their story to life? You always have that question, because even coming from football, I didn't really play it at that high level that this character's playing. And I didn't play quarterback State. Yeah, I played for Florida State, but I didn't, you know, I was on the bench. But, you know, that that's what. When I'm reading it, I'm like, can I carry a film at that time? Because I've only had an Atlanta episode, and that was, what, seven shoot days? And this is mid-30s, you know, and it's a. It's a multimillion dollar production. Yeah, you have that anxiety, but I think, you know, it's the things that make me feel most uncomfortable that draw me to it. And, you know, breaking down the script with the team, at Monkeypaw, with the team, with the casting director, Carmen Cuba, that's when I really got to see the vision for what they were trying to bring to life. And, yeah, to be honest, I think when you're stretched so far, everything else in the middle becomes easier. So, yeah, I had to, like, work out and train with the NFL quarterback. But I think, you know, when you train so hard, you know, like, the acting side of it, you know, you stop stressing about just the performance, but rather the physique, the emotional journey of the character. Yeah. And I was in a different country when they reached out. It was a whole different process when they sent the script. But, you know, you said something earlier.

[A]

You said that you don't really watch him, you survive him. And that's Interesting that you would say that because the movies come out and the reaction to the film has been interesting.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

You've seen people. It's full spectrum. You've seen people say, hey, this movie is bad. Then you've seen people say, this movie is a specific cinematic journey that you have got to surrender to in order to understand it. Then you've seen people that say, the movie is absolutely visionary. Right. Yeah. So it's not a movie just to be honest with the people that haven't seen it. It's not actually a movie that's very easy to critically contextualize. It's just not easy to. Cause I don't even know if it's supposed to be enjoyed as much as it's supposed to be beholden and experienced. What has the reaction to the film been like for you? Did you expect there to be some discourse about how good the movie was or how much people would enjoy it? Did you expect there to be a lot of conversation? Because there's one thing you can say, there is a shit ton of conversation about the movie, and that's for sure. Yeah, yeah.

[E]

Anything. Jordan Peele. You expect to create the conversation. And I think that's. That's the. That's the goal of great art. You know, we don't make art for people to like it. You know, you can't make art for people to like it because it's subjective. You know, you can create art that shines a light onto real reality. And, you know, I think being black in America is not. It's you. It's an experience. And I come from a place of privilege where being mixed and being white, passing. I don't know the depths of, you know, how difficult it is. And so I think, you know, when you. When you make an art piece like this, you don't make it to be enjoyed because you're shot like you're showing the reality of a character's journey that relates to a cohort of people. And so for people to say they don't like it, it's just.

[A]

It.

[E]

I don't. Yeah, there's certain scenes in it where I'm like, I don't care if you like it or not.

[A]

It.

[E]

It's real. It's real life. What athletes have to do, Go through real life, what, you know, black athletes have to go through. Put your body, soul, mind into what you're. What you're chasing. And it's like, are you. Are you chasing greatness or running from something? And, you know, I think, yeah, I. I'm so proud of this. This piece because of that conversation. And, you know, it started when I worked on Atlanta with Donald Glover, where the episode is a, you know, think piece on identity. And my. My sister text me a couple months later saying that she was studying the episode in a mixed race politics class. And that's when the. The responsibility of me as an artist, as an actor changed. Where it's, yes, we want to create entertaining pieces, but, you know, I think we have. I have a responsibility. I have the privilege to tell stories and that. That aren't just to be digested in an entertaining way, but I think this film creates those conversations that a lot of people are scared to talk about. And I think when you. When you mix a filmmaker like Justin Tipping and Jordan Peele and Marlon Wayne's, that's what you get. And, yeah, the conversation is a beautiful thing that this film has done.

[A]

You mentioned. Can I say something?

[B]

Go ahead. No, yeah, yeah, go ahead.

[A]

You mentioned being white passing.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

For you, you said, I'm black, I'm mixed, I'm white passing. It seemed like you identified yourself as a black man, but you had to also understand that you're mixed. And then you have to also understand that you're white passing. Right? Yeah. How do you contend and come to your identity? Tell people that don't know you, that are gonna look at you, they're gonna hear you say all of those things, how you approach and contend with who you are and what your identity in America is.

[E]

Yeah. So my dad's a black American from Chicago. My mom's white from Maine, and I'm the only one from Jacksonville Flor. But, yeah, you know, I grew up not in the black experience, you know, so I identify as a black man, but I never want to take up space and say my experience is just as difficult because, you know, I think the way I look, you know, I grow my hair out, my hair's straight. My brother had the curly hair. And so, yeah, I walk through the world with privilege, so I always. I'd be remiss to not mention that privilege. But, yeah, growing up, there was always this identity struggle of where do I fit in at, you know, and then it's all it could be, you know, literal and figurative. You know, I always describe it as like a lunchroom. You know, you walk in, you know, my racial identity is like you walk into a lunchroom. You know, you sit here, but, you know, you. You can't fully relate here. You sit here, and you can't fully relate here. And then I Just stopped trying to fit in, and I just decided to sit down at wherever the hell I wanted to sit, you know, and operate from that aspect. And, you know, I choose my blackness every day, and I explore that. And even throughout college, you know, I joined the first black Greek letter organization, Alpha Phi Alpha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, you know, even on campus of Florida State, getting involved with the Black Student Union. My first play was the first ever Black Student Union play at Florida State that talked about themes of police brutality, being black in America. And, you know, I think that was important for me to do. And so. Yeah, yeah. It's a everlasting journey. And I think being black is an honor because we come from greatness, and I'm so lucky to have that. And I just want to live in that space to keep. Continue to tell stories that, you know, my people have witnessed throughout history.

[B]

Beautifully said. We have these conversations on this podcast. So there was a.

[A]

We had a whole bird. We had a whole.

[B]

We needed you. Yes.

[A]

And I'm glad that you just.

[E]

Anytime.

[B]

It was beautiful. You know, I'm a former Miss Black and Gold, by the way. Uh. Oh, that's right. That's right. I'm a Delta, but former Ms. Black and Gold.

[E]

How's the pageant, dad? That was a pack of bag.

[B]

Yeah. I want to talk about the athleticism, because I don't know if you know this, but Van is our resident athlete on the show here. Yeah. But also quarterbacking. Van. So you worked with Jordan Palmer, Van DMed, Quincy Avery, another football coach, and really wanted to tap into what he can do because he thinks he can be an elite quarterback.

[A]

That's not what I said.

[B]

Just. What.

[A]

I never said that I could be an elite quarterback. I just said I feel like I never played qb. And he. I feel like he could make me a qb. I never said elite, but I could be.

[B]

What kind of QB could you play at Foreign State?

[A]

No, I just want to. I want. I think I could be out there a point guard. I think he said point guard. Okay. I think. I think I could point guard and get the ball to my playmakers in space. Whatever. That's all I'm saying.

[B]

No, no, but for you, I think it's, you know, as we're getting to know you and you, you know, Atlanta, you talk about that you play in Tell Me Lies. I love. I love that show. But the transition from. From football, going from football to acting, what's been harder for you playing football? Acting. And how did you make that transition and decide I want to Let this go and move to this.

[E]

Yeah. I think it's all different chapters of my life. Right. I think because I grew up playing soccer, and then I transitioned to football out of spite. Cause I got cut, and I was like, you know what? Watch this.

[A]

That's when you learned you was black. Yeah. They cut you off the soccer team, and then you was on the football team. You was like, maybe I am black.

[E]

I was rounding him up. I was snapping about the air. I ended up getting some. I got an offer to go to some D1AA schools. I think the biggest one was Davidson College. And that was the first time I got introduced to, like, Hazen and whatnot. So, yeah, and I think it's different chapters, because when you take that step from, like, the nest to college, you know, you have to work through those motions. There's a scene in the movie where I'm like, you know, something. I call my mom and, like, something's off. I literally had that same thing happen to me when I went to Davidson College. And the team there, they were, like, hazing me up. They weren't nice. And I didn't realize, you know, that's like, a process that teams go through. Because in my mind, I was like, y' all went one and eight last year. You were worried about the wrong thing. So it was a journey from there to decide to go to Florida State. I had to call the coaches and tell them, I'm switching to Florida State. And I decided to walk on to elite football team. And then having to quit football because I wanted to get into acting, that was a whole different journey. But I think acting has been monumentally more difficult. I don't know if I said that right, but, yeah, I think. Because I think when it came to sports, you hide behind the shell of a uniform, and you go out and take your emotions out on the field. As men, you're not taught emotional intelligence. And so when I gave up sports, I really didn't have an outlet, a healthy outlet to express myself. And I had to find that and search that. And that's when I found myself on different leadership positions on campus so I could learn about the human condition. And even the transition from college to, okay, I'm gonna move to Atlanta and pursue acting. I had to learn how to use the pain, the trauma, the life experience, and project it on to characters that I decided to play. And I think that's the hard thing about acting, where I always say, I forget what actor said this. He was like, if you want to act, forget about acting. And live, you know, And I think the real. My real life experiences are poured into my characters now, you know, and as I was chasing my dream of acting, I had like, no gigs. I'm like, auditioning. That's all I can think about. I'm in acting class. It's quarantine. So. And you go from this world of like, okay, you have friends making six figures here, and you go to literally not making any money to using student loans to pay for your rent. And then you look up, you know, my brother ends up, he dies, you know, and that was a wake up call for me because, you know, in my mind, I switched positions with him in a heartbeat, you know, because I'm like. I felt. I felt like, so, like, surface level. I'm like, hey, my name is Tyreek Withers. I'm six five, I'm a local hire in Atlanta, Georgia. When he's actually bringing life into the world as a dad, you know, and I think that journey of acting was so difficult because, you know, I had to really find my why. And my why was, you know, to put out art to help others heal. And I think that I'm able to take those life experiences. I'm a mosaic. I take that mosaic, apply it to the work, and make more people feel seen. And I think that's what you get with him, where my real life experience of grief, family, love is poured into this character. And that's why I don't care if you like it or not, you know, it's real life art, you know, and that's. And if somebody out there feels like many people, many athletes are able to come up to me and. And say, yo, I really appreciate that. And I'm like, that's why I do it.

[A]

You know, it's interesting, man. When you take the movie in, there are things that are said about athletes that we say, I don't want to give away the movie. People have to see it. But like, you know, people are sucking the blood of these athletes or using these athletes. And then a lot of those things in the movie are very directly. You guys, when I say directly, address, I mean, all of the things that you've heard about what you. They're directly in the movie. And the sports horror film is not something that I had ever really. The sports psychological thriller is not something I had ever really seen before. So this film is almost like, in a way, proof of concept about whether or not this genre has any legs. It's interesting to hear you just address it as a piece of art that People have to contend with rather than people have to, like, actually, like, did you feel that way while you were shooting it? Did you feel that way before you got, like, when you were reading the script or when you looked at this? Did you come away with the thought that this art is good enough to exist in the world, whether or not people can access it or not? Because that's hard for people to do. That's hard for young actors to do. That's hard for young, older actors to do. That's hard for anybody that's put anything out in the world. You put it out in the world, and then you don't live through it. A lot of people live with it. And if somebody says they don't like the art, a lot of people will feel like you're saying you don't like me. You have. You're not. You're like, the way the actors and performers. I know that feel like you. They've been doing it for 30, 40 years and go, I do something, I say, what the fuck I have to say. Deal with it.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

How did you get there with this particular movie? Like, was it after you saw it was. While you were reading it? Was it Justin? Was it Marlon? Was it Jordan? How did you get to that particular part? That's very liberating to be there already and be there with your first starring role.

[E]

Yeah, immediately when I read the script, I knew it was gonna be uncomfortable conversation. Not for me, because we can talk about this any day, you know, but, you know, it's when you. I just. I'm holding up a mirror, and I think doing that, you know, people are nervous. And I think it was after I had a conversation with Jordan Peele, and he says, I know when I'm making something great, when I'm on set and I look up, I'm like, should we be filming this? You know, and then everybody says they want to work with the greats, but, you know, they don't. They're afraid to, like, tap into that mindset. And I think it was after that conversation, it was during filming, you know. Cause as a newer artist, you're like.

[A]

I hope people like this.

[E]

You know, I hope people like this.

[A]

Yes.

[E]

I hope they like this. And you have that ego tied into. To the work. But I think it, you know, after filming and sitting with the film for over a year, you're able to detach from it. And it is exactly what it needed to be. And I think, you know, it. It's an allegory, and it being. Being so detached from it, you're able to. You know, when people say, I'm going to watch a movie this weekend, see what it's about, I was like, I just hope it resonates with you. That's all I can ask, you know, and everybody's entitled to their own opinion, whether you like it or not, but it's the truth. And working with Marlon on this, you know, somebody who's unapologetically himself, no matter what, he's gonna give it to you this way. That way doesn't matter. I think the guidance of him through this process is helpful. And, you know, not everything is for everybody. And it's. It's a work in progr. And it's a journey to get. To keep this mindset because, you know, I'm so. I'm passionate about this film. I'm passionate. That can speak to so many different things. I think it transcends sports. I think it's a universal theme of, you know, wanting to prove oneself not only for, you know, the, you know, the coaches, but, you know, your family. And you're like, am I really doing this for myself? And it's that search of identity that. The duality of grief, where such pain and suffering causes beautiful relationships and love to blossom. And I think the exploration of grief in this movie for me is not only losing a loved one, but losing your authentic self in that process of chasing greatness. And so, yeah, I think as long as I tie myself to those themes and know that I did everything in my power to bring this story to life, I know everybody attached to this film. I'm super passionate and grateful that I had the responsibility to carry this film alongside Marlon. And, yeah, I don't live in that ego of if you like it or not, because I don't try not to buy into the. You like it because you live by the sword, you die by the sword. It's a story that so many different filmmakers came together to make. And where they're at, you know, Kyra Kelly, our cinematographer, she was. She got let out the cage with this movie, and if you watch it, it's food. Like, it's food for the brain. Any scene, it's like a painting, you know, And Justin Tippen, he got pulled into the world of tv. He got let out of the cage to make this film. Marlon Wayans, he really subverts the audience's expectations when it comes to the level of performance. He got to. And, you know, I think it's not always the destination. It's the community and journey and I think all the experience that I had making this movie, I hold dear to my heart for the rest of my life.

[B]

Tariq Withers, thank you so much for joining us on Higher Learning. Congrats on the movie. The movie is him out in theaters now. Thank you for being open, vulnerable, all the things. You gotta come back on the podcast and talk to us about what you're doing next. We're gonna be following your career for sure.

[E]

Let's do it.

[A]

By the way, just before he goes, I'm telling people right now, go see the movie. I'm being for real, though. Seriously, Go see the movie so you can judge for yourself. I'm just being for real. Go see the movie so you can judge for yourself. You really need to go see the movie. There's a conversation that's happening, but every once in a while, there's a piece of art that you need to really be able to decide for yourself how much art you like, how. Where your boundaries are, how expansive and exploratory you are. Like, this is a film that until you've seen it, you can't really get in on a discourse. You really should go see the movie. I'm serious. Cause I'm sitting there like, God damn. So, like, it's a goddamn movie. You won't know how you felt about the movie after you're just watched. You need to go and experience the film and the fantastic performances. Like he said, you have to survive it. But go see it. Go see it. Test yourself. Go see it. Have fun. It's fun. It's also fun. Y' all crazy, though, nigga. Y' all crazy.

[E]

Marlin. Marlin. Marlin's back.

[A]

Y'. All. Y'. All. Y' all crazy. The whole fucking. All of y'. All. Shrooms. Yeah, all of y', all, like, like, major shrooms for all, for all, for everyone involved. Y', all. Y', all. Y'. All. Y' all crazy, bro. Thank you for joining us, though, man.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[E]

Appreciate it. Have a blessed one.

[A]

You, too. All right, we're out. We're out. We're podcasting. We're doing it. We're having fun. We're getting to the bottom of things. The world is on fire. And you guys, we ain't got a water hose, but we definitely got spit. All right? Yeah, we definitely got spit. And if we all spit together, I promise you, we got two things. The world's on fire. We gotta do two things. Either we gotta still a water hose, or we all gotta spin on it together. Oh, my God. Pause. Jesus.

[B]

Couldn't end the podcast without some sort of innuendo.

[A]

What? Creepy Uncle Van. That's me.

[B]

Creepy? No. What's your new name, Great Uncle? What did you call yourself? Grand Unk.

[A]

Grand Unk. Creepy. Grand Unk Van. Creepy Grand Un.

[B]

Creepy Grand Un. Listen, next podcast we're gonna be talking. We gotta talk about. I mean, we're on the verge of a government shutdown again. There's been so much going on, we haven't even tapped into it. So next week, whether it's on Tuesday or Friday, we're getting into it.

[A]

Government shutdown. Fun stuff. Everything's happening at the same time. I still believe in y'. All. I hope you guys believe in yourselves. Take theme caps off, but do not stop learning. I'm Van Lathan jr.

[B]

I'm Rachel Lynn Lindsay.

[A]

Bye, guys.