Talking Reparations and “Black Boy Tragic” With Governor Wes Moore! Plus, the Diddy Documentary and BD Wong’s Apology Rating. | Higher Learning | The Ringer

Summary

Podcast Summary: Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay

Episode: Talking Reparations and “Black Boy Tragic” With Governor Wes Moore! Plus, the Diddy Documentary and BD Wong’s Apology Rating | December 5, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay dive deep into political, cultural, and community issues at the heart of Black America. The focus is a wide-ranging interview with Maryland Governor Wes Moore on reparations, education, and leadership, flanked by lively debates on hot-button topics including the new Diddy documentary, BD Wong's social media misstep, Pharrell's cultural commentary, and accountability in Black celebrity culture. The episode features candid discussions, sharp wit, and memorable quotes throughout.

---

Key Segments & Discussion Points

1. Reparations in Maryland: Interview with Governor Wes Moore

[61:13–123:46]

Theme: The complexities of advancing reparative justice for Black communities, legislative approaches, and Moore's own background.

Main Points:

• Reparations Legislation Controversy:

  • Moore's veto of a Maryland reparations study bill drew fire. Van plays a soundbite of activist Jessica Iwoyer explaining the view that while Moore isn't “lying,” his action sidesteps codifying accountability for reparations.
    • Jessica Iwoyer (on Moore's veto):

      “I think the governor is figuring out a way to evade accountability... I don't think that the governor is lying, per se. I think that we're not getting the whole truth.” ([63:54])

  • Moore responds by arguing Maryland has already had numerous studies and that what is needed is action, not another report.
    • Gov. Wes Moore:

      “If you read the bill, you will see... it's a two and a half year study on something that I don't need to study. That we have had four studies in the past 20 years in the state of Maryland alone on these types of issues.” ([65:42])

  • Moore details existing actions: record HBCU funding, procurement reform for Black businesses, creation of a Social and Economic Mobility department, mass pardons for cannabis convictions, and targeted investments in Black communities.

• On the Importance and Limits of Legal Mandates:

  • Moore voices respect for legal frameworks but claims the vetoed bill was not designed to effect binding reparative action.
    • Moore:

      “I do think (legal commitment) is important, but that's not this bill. That's the point. Read the bill.” ([71:30])

• Broader Philosophy:

  • Moore frames his work as urgent, shaped by personal history with poverty and systemic injustice.
    • Moore:

      “I'm probably the most improbable governor in this country… I had handcuffs on my wrist by the time I was 11. My mother didn’t get her first job with benefits until I was 14.” ([75:13])

  • On policy: urgent investment in education, business, and social support, especially to reduce childhood poverty.
    • Moore:

      “If we can solve the issue of childhood poverty, I could put my head on a pillow tonight and never open my eyes again. And I'd be good because I feel like I did my job.” ([81:00])

• Crime and Policing: Building (or Not) a $1B Jail:

  • Moore inherited plans for Maryland’s largest state-funded jail, but questions whether it's the right use of resources.
    • Moore:

      “We can both say we're going to make people safer, but the answer...is not locking up entire communities... I am going to use the powers that are vested in me...to think critically about whether that's the right capital usage.” ([84:54–86:46])

• Violence Reduction Partnerships:

  • Praises collaboration with Baltimore Mayor Brandon Scott for historic crime decrease through community partnerships and investments.

• Education & Black Male Teachers:

  • Moore details Maryland’s “Grow Your Own Educators” program focusing on male and especially Black male teachers to address historic imbalances and lift up both boys and girls in the system.

• Centering Black Boys & Avoiding “Black Boy Tragic”:

  • Moore is unapologetic about centering policies/support for Black boys, while insisting support for Black girls is not being reduced.
    • Moore:

      “We're not lifting up our boys to the detriment of lifting up our girls.” ([98:36])

• Personal Political Philosophy & Economic Equity:

  • Moore brings investment banking experience, calls extreme wealth concentration and tax policy a “dangerous” consolidation, advocates tax cuts for middle class, and higher taxes for the wealthy.

• Hope for the Future:

  • Moore draws hope from Black American history:

    “I am not going to let Donald Trump write the final chapter in this story... Let history be our guide.” ([121:02])

Notable Quotes:

• Moore, on executive action over studies:

  “The paternalistic permission structure politics... when you don’t want to deal with something difficult, do a study.” ([65:42])

• Moore on urgent leadership:

  “I literally keep a clock that sits on my desk. Let me know how many days I got every single day. Our time here is short. I’m not trying to waste one of them.” ([76:43])

• Moore on Gaza and humanity:

  “My baseline is humanity. And I don’t think that humanity has a matrix to it… If humanity is extreme, then I don’t know what place in society we’re at right now.” ([111:55])

---

2. Diddy Documentary: Reckoning with a Mogul

[19:42–29:21]

Theme: The new Netflix documentary “Sean Combs: The Reckoning” is dissected as a “legacy-destroying” expose.

• Access and Legality:
  • Van and Rachel marvel at the documentary’s unprecedented access to private footage and conversations, expressing shock at scenes like Diddy’s discussions with his lawyer:
    • Van:

      “How on God’s green earth does anyone get footage of Diddy talking to his lawyer?” ([20:28])

• Legacy and Manipulation:
  • The hosts argue the film paints Diddy as “calculating” and manipulative, supporting longstanding rumors.
    • Rachel:

      “This whole documentary shows what a monster Diddy has always been.” ([25:48])

• 50 Cent’s Involvement:
  • Strong warning not to cross 50 Cent, an executive producer, who is painted as relentless with enemies.
    • Van’s advice:

      “Leave 50 Cent alone. Leave him alone. Leave him be… he won’t let it go.” ([22:05])

• Overall Purpose:
  • The panel sees the entire project’s intent as tarnishing Diddy’s name:
    • Van:

      “There is one point in this documentary, and that’s to ruin Diddy’s legacy.” ([26:04])

---

3. Pharrell Williams’ Response to Backlash

[30:37–37:04]

Theme: Pharrell’s “Sound Bite This” speech, defending his philanthropic work after criticism over political comments.

• Speech Excerpt:
  • Pharrell, at the FN Achievement Awards, reframes his “I don’t do politics” controversy, recounts his upbringing and Black Ambition philanthropy.
    • Pharrell Williams:

      “Don’t be fooled by my bourgeois taste and heart. I’m proletariat… we created Black Ambition… $85 million to Black and brown startups.” ([31:58])

• Rachel’s Analysis:
  • Appreciates the structure and intent but feels Pharrell sidestepped direct accountability, opting for a defensive tone:
    • Rachel:

      “I wish he would have said more… maybe say I misspoke...I think what he said the first time did come off as problematic.” ([35:03])

---

4. BD Wong’s “Black Man” Joke and Apology Rating

[50:53–55:27]

Theme: BD Wong made a distasteful joke on Instagram and issued a public apology. Van and Rachel rate his apology.

• Incident Recap:
  • BD Wong commented “It appears to be a Black man” under a “wrong answers only” animal photo.
• Apology Review:
  • Wong calls it a “racist comment” and “super dumb,” but Rachel is skeptical of its authenticity, rating it a “two” out of five.
    • Rachel Lindsay:

      “I have a hard time believing that this is a one off...I gotta give this apology rating. I gotta give him a two.” ([53:43])

---

5. Community, Criticism, and Celebrity Accountability

[37:04–50:46]

Theme: How Black celebrities respond to criticism and the complexities of community engagement.

• Van on Reddit Feedback:
  • Warns against taking criticism personally, urges balance and self-awareness for public figures.
• Community over “Big Timing”:
  • Argues celebrities should remain receptive to community input rather than relying on their resumes to shield from critique:
    • Van:

      “You can’t shut somebody up with good deeds. And you shouldn’t want to. What you should want to do is be like, why are they pissed?” ([42:08])

---

6. Fun & Pop Culture: Lightning Round with Gov. Wes Moore

[113:13–120:20]

A lively “lightning round” closes the interview:

• Favorite Republican: Jack Coburn, Mayor of Lonaconing, Maryland. ([113:37])
• Favorite 'Wire' Character: Omar, honorable mention to Marlo. ([114:24])
• NFL QB Dilemma: Picks Lamar Jackson over all comers, including Patrick Mahomes, citing uniqueness and “change the game” ability. ([115:58–117:11])

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Studies vs. Action:
  Moore, responding to the study bill veto:

  "The definition of bold is another study? ... No one is walking up to me and saying, but what about my two and a half year study? ... That’s the paternalistic permission structure politics ... I actually want to deal with it now." ([65:42])

• On Centering Black Boys:
  Moore:

  “We’re not lifting up our boys to the detriment of lifting up our girls.” ([98:36])

• On Diddy Doc and Industry Enemies:
  Van:

  “It really doesn’t pay in the long run to fuck with [50 Cent]… For whatever reason, he won't let it go. He’ll stay on it.” ([22:03])

• On BD Wong's Joke:
  Rachel:

  “You said the quiet part out loud. And I have a hard time believing that this is a one off.” ([53:14])

---

Timestamps Guide to Major Segments

| Segment | Start | End | |---------|-------|-----| | Reparations/Moore intro | 61:13 | 70:02 | | Reparations deep dive | 70:02 | 74:20 | | Moore's background & urgency | 74:20 | 78:37 | | Child poverty and solutions | 78:37 | 81:00 | | Affordable policies/trump | 81:00 | 84:07 | | $1B jail controversy | 84:07 | 86:46 | | Violence reduction in Baltimore | 87:11 | 91:13 | | Education/Black boys | 91:13 | 95:50 | | Centering boys, community, and “Black Boy Tragic” | 95:50 | 98:46 | | Investment banking & economic equity | 99:08 | 105:08 | | Facing Trump, hope for the future | 109:42 | 123:46 |

---

Conclusion

This episode of Higher Learning exemplifies the show's integrity, humor, and commitment to tough conversations. The dialogue with Governor Wes Moore offers a nuanced look at reparations, social policy, and the realities of Black leadership. The hosts' vibrant takes on culture—whether unpacking a Netflix documentary or holding figures like Pharrell and BD Wong accountable—underscore their commitment to celebrating and critiquing Black America with equal passion.

---

Listen for These Memorable Exchanges

• Van, on Diddy v. 50 Cent:

  “There are certain guys that it just, it really doesn’t pay in the long run to fuck with them. And 50 is one of those guys.” ([22:03])

• Governor Wes Moore, on progress:

  “Loving your country does not mean lying about its history.” ([72:40])

• Moore, on legacy:

  “I am not going to let Donald Trump write the final chapter in this story. Let history be our guide.” ([121:02])

---

[This summary omits advertisements, intro/outro chatter, and focuses on core content and significant conversations as requested.]

Transcript

[Donnie]

Foreign.

[Van Lathan]

Yo, yo, yo, Thought warriors. What is up? Higher learning is on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's Ivan Leathan Jr. And it's me, Rachel Lynn Lindsay.

[Van Lathan]

Governor Westmore, on the podcast today.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Pretty wide ranging interview. It was good.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It was a great interview and I'm excited for the audience to get to. I'm wearing sunglasses, guys. I had eye surgery.

[Van Lathan]

You little hour. So you got the. So I guess my question is, could you have worn, like, regular sunglasses or do you have to wear those specific sunglasses that they give you?

[Rachel Lindsay]

So I probably could have worn regular, but I don't want an indention. Like, all my sunglasses have the little things right here on the nose. So I like these because I feel like they're not gonna be as much.

[Van Lathan]

Of an indention when you go to your family reunion. Mm. It's always one of your aunts that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Has these on, for sure.

[Van Lathan]

Like, you want some black Eyed peas, baby?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I kinda like em. I think it's a vibe.

[Van Lathan]

I think it's kind of cool.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

You know, like, kind of give you the whole Oakleys in the 90s type of swag. You could. You fucking with it, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I feel like I could make this work.

[Van Lathan]

More guys have been reaching out about you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Is this. I don't know if I did. I changed something. What's up?

[Van Lathan]

No, they've been reaching out.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What do you tell them?

[Van Lathan]

I told you about this earlier. I realized that you.

Approach.

You approach dealing with people reaching out about your female friends differently than you do for your male friends. Mm. You know, if I'm walking down the street and somebody stops me and they ask me about, like, Donnie. Let's say Donnie was single. He's not. He's got a loving relationship with a kid. Beautiful family. Let's say Donnie was single. Walking down the street, lady asked me, hey, I think Donnie's so cute. Don't matter who she is, don't matter what she look like. Oh, all right, cool. I'll tell him what's up. No problem. I'm gonna come back here. Hey, Donnie, the lady that work at Verve, Coffee up there, she say, you got it. Go see what's up. Cause I never know what Donnie likes. But if I'm walking down the street or if I'm anywhere even with one of my friends and somebody asks me about you, it's like, you know, van, what's up with Rachel? Why.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You go into big brother mode?

[Van Lathan]

Like, why? Why? What you mean, what's up with her? What she mean? She. She went to Texas. That's what I was. Yeah. Like why she from Dallas? Why? So I think I'm trying to see what's up. Nah, nah, nah, nah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who's the ideal person for me?

[Van Lathan]

What?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like who's the ideal. You telling all these people?

[Donnie]

No.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Who is the ideal person that you want to see me with?

[Van Lathan]

Sonic the Hedgehog.

Why Van Very fast blue, brilliant fur.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Has not fur being a characteristic that you want from me?

[Van Lathan]

I didn't say fur. I said brilliant fur. Sonic has a childlike aura. He has special powers, he helps people. And he's also not from around here. So if you're asking me, it's somebody like that. A mythical creature.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I like a mythical creature. But the fact that you were so specific with Sonnet Hedgehog makes me think you've thought about this before.

[Van Lathan]

Well, Mario's out of your league.

[Donnie]

Wow.

[Van Lathan]

You can't get Mario.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Luigi.

[Van Lathan]

No.

[Governor Wes Moore]

What?

[Van Lathan]

Luigi is obviously gay. Yeah, Luigi like Luigi is. Mario's out of your league. If I'm ranking you on the video game characters that would date you and that you would like. Sonic is the leader of Sega and Sonic's cool. Sonic is the man. Three hit movies, maybe four. You know what I mean? Sonic is the man. But like Mario, that's like.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What's the red. What's the. The red one's name?

[Van Lathan]

I think that is Knuckles.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Knuckles, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

So it is Sonic. It is Knuckles. It is Tails.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Tails. And then it is a little too young for me.

[Van Lathan]

Shadow, the headphone.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't know Shadow.

[Van Lathan]

Shadow is played by Idris Elba.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Interesting.

[Van Lathan]

Idris Elba in the movie. Tika Sumter is in these movies. Go watch the song.

[Rachel Lindsay]

James Marsden. I've seen. I've seen a couple of them.

[Donnie]

Not bad.

[Van Lathan]

Well, you ain't seeing nothing right now. All right, Governor Westmore in a little bit. We talked about everything that we could talk about with the governor in the.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Amount of time we had. We sure did.

[Donnie]

It was great.

[Van Lathan]

Impressive political figure. I want to say something before I move on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This week on seen on the Screen, we were like, okay, we're going to do three times more than three times that amount of animatronics for the second one. So we've got like a full on army of animatronics in the second. We really focused on the fan base first and foremost. At least if we stick the landing with them, we're in good shape. Join me, Jacqueline Coley, as I meet the filmmakers, actors and industry insiders influencing entertainment. Each episode, guests share their journeys and inspirations and answer trivia about the movies that shape them. My next guest is Emma Tommy, director of Five Nights at Freddy's and Five Nights at Freddy's 2. To listen, simply search seen on the screen wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Van Lathan]

This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. The Hyundai Getaway sales event is on now with awesome deals on most of their popular models, including adventure ready SUVs like the Hyundai Santa Fe and Santa Fe Hybrid. There's also the stylish Elantra, packed with the latest tech. Or go electric with the Ioniq 5 or Ioniq 6. Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603. More Details Offers in January 5, 2026 I am currently right now watching the Joe Rogan interview with Jensen Huang, who is the CEO of Nvidia. Nvidia, which happens to be right now the largest company in the world. Or I guess the the largest company in the world. That's not the right way to say it. They're the most valuable company in the world out of. It's like $5 trillion or something like that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's crazy.

[Van Lathan]

Nvidia is valued at I'm watching this interview for one reason, and that is to determine just how dangerous Joe Rogan is. I went into it with an idea, okay, but there is a chance that Joe Rogan is in fact the most dangerous man in America because of how.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He'S navigating this interview.

[Van Lathan]

Not just this interview. I haven't. I have to get to the end of the interview. I think I have about 40 minutes left and then I have to go back and watch all of the interviews that Rogan has done with people like Mark Zuckerberg. I need to watch him in there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

With those type of.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, I need to watch him in there and tidy Mark Zuckerberg, Cash Patel, all of these different people, right? The Cash Patel interview actually was one that exposed Cash Patel in a way that I don't know if that was Rogan's intention tension, but it made Cash Patel look very bad.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are these post 2024 Trump election interviews or are they after?

[Van Lathan]

So I'm going to watch a lot of different ones now. People might say, hey, Van, we know enough about Rogan, we know enough about these interviews and his interview style to already make this determination. What I would say is like right now we're in a really, really specific time. And that time to me is, is about whether or not we completely turn over our entire society to techno feudalism. And I keep talking about this over and over and over again and maybe I'M being alarm. An alarmist. An alarmist, should I say, in a way. But I don't think that I am. I think that from an economic perspective, we're looking at a complete capture of our economy by these gigantic AI tech companies. I cannot wait to have Ed back on. I hope to get Ed back on maybe next week or the week after. From the standpoint of data harvesting and collection from a company like Palantir that then takes that data and uses it to actually kill people. The energy constraints that all of these different companies are putting on, they might have to build infinite new, not infinite new. They have numbers and scores of new nuclear power plants to power this AI revolution.

And if they do get to it, what it means for the consumer, not the consumer, what it means for the workforce to live in a world where, you know, AI has optimized, completely changed the way we go about doing what we're doing. Look, all of these things are what they are. And that's not to mention the immense amount of political sway that they have because of the money and the proximity to President Trump that they have. There are serious questions to be asked. And there's a chance, at least right now, that the Joe Rogan experience, that podcast, is the single greatest way to sanewash the complete bat shit crazy economic, cultural and military fascism that exists at the top levels of tech right now, that it's the number one conduit. Forget about even what the President and all those guys are doing. They're putting money in their pocket. That's true. All of that stuff, it's bad, it's terrible. But the way to make it seem normal is to go on the biggest podcast in the history of the world, sit down and have a conversation with someone, and not at all, in any intellectually curious way, get into the guts of what this means for people. Which, when you listen to the interview, there are questions about this, but those questions come from the mind of Joe Rogan and the curiosity of Joe Rogan and not necessarily from the standpoint of are you dangerous? And if that doesn't happen, then the platform is dangerous. Like, not. I mean, when I say dangerous, I mean the most dangerous guy. Like, when you see this stuff and you look at it, if you have a conversation, if you dive into, like, what Palantir is doing and what some of these other places are doing, there's just no way to look at them without asking serious existential questions about what it is that they are doing and wanting to.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, I'd be shocked that he. I mean, if he doesn't ask some of those questions just because so many people fear. Have a fear of it, because they don't understand it. So he doesn't ask any questions in regards to. I'm asking.

[Van Lathan]

He does. He does, he does. But I need the interview in its totality. I'm not gonna make a decision from clips. I need to watch these interviews in the totality to really be able to form this. But when I first saw Jensen Huang on there, and, you know, I just can't give a fuck less right now about the history of Nvidia. You can get that from a YouTube video, you can get that from an article. What we need to know, we're here now, the present of Nvidia and what Nvidia looks at its future as. And you got, you get these guys up there, they're not doing a whole ton of long form interviews with anyone that seems particularly interested in the damage that they could do. So I don't know.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's a great question. All right, now you made me interested. Now I want to go listen to it.

[Van Lathan]

Go, go listen to it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I will, actually. I will.

[Van Lathan]

All right, Donnie. God damn it. Yeah.

[Jacqueline Coley]

We got more fallout From Kamala Harris's 107 Days book reporter at the Atlantic. Tim Alberta talked to Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro about excerpts from said book. She accused Shapiro of taking over the conversation when he was being interviewed to be her running mate, allegedly insisting on being, quote, in the room for every decision. Alberta also told Shapiro about some of the questions Hera recounted him asking her during the interview, including questions about the size of the vice president home and if the governor could loan Pennsylvania art for the residents. Governor Shapiro allegedly said, or according to Alberta, said she wrote that in her book. That's complete bullshit. I can tell you that. Her accounts are just blatant lies. I mean, she's trying to sell books and cover her ass. And then he caught himself and backtracked and said, I shouldn't say cover her ass. I think that's not appropriate. She's trying to sell the. She's trying to sell books, period.

[Van Lathan]

I found this to be interesting.

[Donnie]

Why?

[Van Lathan]

That he would come at her directly in that way.

[Donnie]

Why?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because his reputation is him being very poised and very calm and collected.

[Van Lathan]

No, he likes to mix it up, but he doesn't seem to fear blowback from that. And there was a time when he would have.

[Rachel Lindsay]

When she was vice president, There was.

[Van Lathan]

A time when, at least to me, unless he's just, you know, he does have a little bit of a, you know, he's a little bit of a hothead, so maybe he spoke without really thinking about who he was talking about and what he was talking about. But there seems to me that there was a time when you would have thought twice about going at her that directly and making that into a headline.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why do you think that's changed then?

[Van Lathan]

I don't know. Like, I'm. I'm. I'm waiting for the response of the K Hive and of all of the people that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Do they call themselves that?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, the Khive Kamala Harris people.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I know what you're referring to. I didn't know that that's what they call themselves.

[Van Lathan]

There was a point where we were having a serious conversation about how it was, like, whether or not it was okay and how you criticize Madam Vice President.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, if I look at it that way, then it has to be the timing of it.

[Donnie]

All.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Right. She's no longer vice president, and you don't know if she's running or not. And if she is, she kind of took some ain't like she kind of called you out on things that I feel like maybe have been whispers. Because I do think that he comes across very collected, very calm. Of course he gets heated about. About things that directly impact him, but you don't really see him get into the.

[Van Lathan]

To the.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The weeds of it all. He doesn't really get get into it. I mean, if it's Trump, that's one thing, but not necessarily with other Democrats. You don't really see him do a back and forth. And this was what seemed. Appears to be out of character. But I feel like in small circles, it's always rumored that he's a little bit of a hothead at times or that he doesn't. He might be a little bit more. Not as calm as he presents himself to be. She doesn't have the same leverage, I guess you could say, that she had in 2024. She's not the candidate. She's not the vice president anymore. Now she's possibly your competition if y' all both decide to run in 2028 or maybe beyond. So I think he probably looked at it as like, she's not in the same position. I'm not saying I agree with what he said. She's coming after me in her book. She didn't give me a heads up. Because that's what you learned about in the interview when the reporter in the Atlantic says to him, oh, we have excerpts from her book in 107 days. 107 days. Have you seen it? He says, no. He reads it and he's like, she wrote that in her book. And he's like, did she give you a heads up? And he's like, no. So he probably thought, oh, this is fair game. Are you gonna come at me, expose me? Let me talk about what it is that you're really doing, too. You're trying to sell books.

[Van Lathan]

I think my question is more about the durability of her cultural position.

And that is something that we're going to see. Look, 26 is going to be the year that all of these prospective candidates are going to start attacking each other.

Maybe not 26. Really.

[Rachel Lindsay]

After the midterms.

[Van Lathan]

After the midterms, they're gonna remain pretty unified.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They should.

[Van Lathan]

Until. They should. Until after the midterms. And then you're going to see the politics shift into high gear once they have been able to look at the results of the midterm and determine how strong the Democratic brand is. If the Democrats were to lose the midterms, the primaries going into 28 would be fascinating because they would have to politely take chunks out of each other's asses. If those midterms go their way, which it seems almost certain that they will, then they can just bring the knives and the swords out and just hack each other to pieces. But, like, I'm interested in, like, legitimately how durable her cultural position is.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, if elections were coming up and they had to, like, throw their name in that next year, I don't think the book did her any favors. I really don't, culturally, and we've talked about that on the podcast. I.

[Donnie]

It even.

[Van Lathan]

You think it hurt her with black ladies?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I think black women are always going to support Kamala Harris. I don't think that it hurt. No, not with black women at all. I just think that it didn't move the needle for her. I actually think the book was a kind of a test. I think she always would have come out with it, but it didn't move the needle into people either rooting for her more. It either kept her exactly where she is or it got worse, in my opinion. I mean, you saw the headlines that came out. The headlines made the book seem worse than it was. We read the book. It was not that she was not that critical of the Democratic Party. We always say it was Joe Biden and Jill Biden and. And Gavin Newsom that got it the most in that book, but I just don't. Culturally, I think that there were a lot of people, and as we talked about on this podcast that were expecting more from the book if I'm going to move forward with you. I expected something deeper to come from you with this book in order to assess how you'll be as a politician moving forward if you continue to be involved in politics. I didn't get that. So it didn't move the needle for me personally anyway. And culturally, I almost feel like that's kind of what it is.

[Van Lathan]

The book gave her a reason to talk. It was a conduit for her to get back out in front of people to where she didn't have to really go over the record of the Biden administration, which is incredible in some ways, but in other ways insanely bad. Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, it also allowed her to be to be very critical of the current administration and say, I told you so. See, this wouldn't have happened.

[Van Lathan]

Right. Like I said, they a lot of good came out of the Biden administration, really. It did. But at the same time, you know, you have Gaza, you have some other things.

Particularly the president's president, Biden's unwillingness to step aside and put the Democrats in the in a good position to go out and beat Donald Trump. All of that stuff. Like those are things that obviously she would have to ask her questions about on her book tour. But she was able to kind of focus the conversation around her purview from.

[Rachel Lindsay]

All that stuff because it was friendly spaces. The people interviewing her were friendly with her or friends with her. And it's a book tour. So I'm not saying she should have gone to like, you know, places that may have pushed against it. But yeah, she was able to avoid it because she was in the right place.

[Van Lathan]

Netflix.

[Jacqueline Coley]

Yeah, the Diddy documentary just came out and a spokesman for Sean Combs called the four part documentary, which is titled Sean Combs the Reckoning. They called it a shameful hit piece that relied on stolen footage. His spokesman said that it's, quote, fundamentally unfair and illegal to use his private recordings. But Netflix says that the material was obtained legally. Their quote is the claims being made about Sean Combs. The reckoning are false. The project has no ties to any past conversations between Sean Combs and Netflix. The footage of Combs leading up to his indictment and arrest were legally obtained. This is not a hit piece or an act of retribution. Curtis Jackson is an executive producer but does not have creative control. No one was paid to participate.

[Van Lathan]

There are three things that I thought when watching this documentary. The first thing was, like everybody else, how the fuck did they get this?

[Rachel Lindsay]

It wasn't that much footage.

[Van Lathan]

I'm watching it and I'm like, how did they get some of these conversations?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, but it wasn't like that much.

[Van Lathan]

Do you understand?

[Rachel Lindsay]

The craziest part was towards the end. But go ahead.

[Van Lathan]

I'm sorry, Tupac. Shit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

The footage of him. I'm talking about the footage that they're saying they obtained illegally. Like the footage of when he's on the phone and he's talking to Martin, old girl from Dirty Money. And what are you talking about? The Capricorn thing like that. To me, I was like, oh, wow. I'm shocked that he would give this away.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I mean, I think all knowing the type of trouble that he was in. How on God's green earth does anyone get footage of Diddy talking to his lawyer, talking to his lawyer about the way he's perceived in hip hop and about what the lawyer isn't doing. Those conversations make him look like the guy that he was painted to be. It's like those conversations that take place in this documentary are very damning to me. Not damning insofar as he's admitting to any crimes. Damning from the standpoint of he looks so, so calculating.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, he's like, that's it. That's the key. That's the key.

[Van Lathan]

Like, it makes him look like they, the government painted him as the head of a criminal organization and enterprise to have freak offs and do all kinds of crazy shit. And if you watch the documentary, documentary, you go, yeah, that's a guy that's capable of some shit like that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

You know what I mean? Secondly, just.

Let's just say fuck the other one. Just two things. That's the first thing. The second one is this. Whoever you are, for whatever reason you might have issues with this person, however far back it goes, for whatever reason it happened, leave 50 cent alone.

[Jacqueline Coley]

Leave.

[Van Lathan]

Leave 50 cent alone. Leave him alone. Leave him be. Because this right here, and I know a little bit about the personal stuff that's going on between these guys. I don't know a little bit about it. I know exactly what's going on.

[Jacqueline Coley]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

And this has to do with direct shit that went on between them. That ain't got nothing to do with no mogul shit. It's men shit. Everybody knows what the fuck is up on the. Not breaking no news, but the fact.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That he did a whole documentary. The Reckoning. The Reckoning.

[Van Lathan]

It's like you can't. And here's the conundrum. You can't be a whole ass nigga. It's not allowed. You not allowed to be a whole ass nigga. You not. It's just not. I don't care. I'm from Baton Rouge. There's people out there that's listening to this. That's from Tyler, Texas. And they going, yeah, you can't be a whole ass nigga from like Los Angeles. Nah, nah. Ho ass nigga is out from Portland, Oregon. Nah, you can't be a whole ass nigga. You can't be a whole ass nigga. But it has always been true that there are certain guys that it just, it really doesn't pay in the long run to fuck with them. It just doesn't. And 50 is one of those guys. It just doesn't pay in the long run to fuck with 50. For whatever reason, he won't let it go. He'll stay on it. And I don't know what it is, but the opportunity always presents itself for him to fuck over you. It just does. I don't know why. It just, he gets the chance to fuck over you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, it's because the people he's going after are also involved in some fucked up shit.

[Van Lathan]

What was Ja Rule involved in that was fucked up?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Fyre Festival.

Fire.

[Van Lathan]

So when I watch this, when you watch this as a documentary, it's really a good documentary.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's shot so well. Yeah, it's really, really good. It's really, really good. I think even you're right about the conversations he has with his attorney. And he's like, that's the smoking gun. That's the smoking gun. Like he's telling him, we gotta use that. You know, when it looks like he's messing with wit by calling them. When, you know, particularly with the dirty money situation, when Don sued and he's talking about.

Don's suit and then he calls, I'm so sorry, I cannot remember her name.

[Van Lathan]

Kalia.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Kalia. He calls Kalia. And he's literally trying to convince her. Like, I'm not telling you, you gotta do that, you gotta do this. And then she tells the behind the scenes story where she's like, I needed for money. Money in my child custody case. I hit up Diddy. I was in a bad place. I needed $5,000. He told me no. Now he's calling me, trying to get me to.

Shows to your point how manipulative the calculation and even just going all the way back. All the things from the party that he threw in Mount Vernon to people dying, to Tupac to Biggie, to the jealousy of the friendship between the two of Them to contractual language in Biggie's second deal, to people he moved out of the way, who questioned, you know, the ethics of what he was doing to making him sick. The star in it all, which is what the documentary makes it seem like. It's what he always wanted at the end of the day. And I'm not even including what he did to the women. Not even talking about that part of it. This, it's not even the reckoning. It's like he's a monster. That's what they. This whole documentary shows what a monster Diddy has always been.

[Van Lathan]

The point of this documentary did the case is only the window dressing for this documentary. The point of this documentary. There is one point. There's one point in this documentary, and that's to ruin Diddy's legacy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

The point of this entire thing is to ruin Diddy's legacy. I'm not calling balls or strikes on that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He did a good job. No, I'm not saying that was his goal.

[Van Lathan]

What I'm saying is when you look at this.

This doesn't just look at his behavior and the dangerous, disgusting behavior that's been uncovered in the last couple of years, that's almost like an hors d'. Oeuvre. It's like, let's go back to the beginning of it, to the start of it. It was rotten all the way through. It was fucked up all the way through. There were bodies left all the way through.

[Donnie]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

There was never a time when someone that you grew up with in the 90s just had this psychotic break or snap and became this person. This person is how they got to where they are.

[Jacqueline Coley]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

This level of cut throat, backstabbing, direct, double dealing, putting yourself first is the reason that Diddy exists. It wasn't a byproduct of it. Right. Because we've heard, we've heard the age old story. That decent, good person, loves culture, whatever it is that they're in. Be an athlete, rapper, whomever, singer. And then all of a sudden, the excesses of the lifestyle corrupt this person and they become something different than they always were. That's not the point of this documentary. The point of this documentary is that he got there by being that guy. And I don't know, man, I'm watching this, I'm like, man, they say 5th doesn't have any creative control and I get that. But at the same time, this right here is a fucking motherfucker.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He might not have control, but he has creative input for sure. As an executive producer, he's got creative input. If you haven't seen it yet, you should go see it. You should watch it.

[Van Lathan]

Just, I know we can't be whole ass niggas. We can't. It's against the rules.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You should watch it.

[Van Lathan]

We can't be whole ass niggas, but there are some people. I'm just gonna be real with you. There are some people that it's. Last thing I'll say about this before I leave, before we go, before we leave this topic, before we get off this topic.

There was a guy in the neighborhood.

In Baton Rouge. And this guy will kill you.

He'll kill you. All right? There's the guy in there. He'll kill you. You will have a fight with him. You'll whoop him or he'll whoop you. But he was a fucking body man. And you knew that if he was. That if you had. If it was up with him and you had a bad day or, excuse me, and he had a bad day, he'll come back, he'll kill you. He'll kill you. We know that whenever you was in a situation, you had to do the calculus in your mind about whether or not it was worth it. With this guy. You had to do. You had to think about it. You had to be like, all right, we're here. This guy said, we going back and forth. Is it worth it with this guy? Because you have to ask yourself a question. Will you kill him? And if the answer is no.

If the answer is no, then you got to think about it. You can't be a whole ass nigga. You can't. But you do have to think about it. Like, this guy will kill you. And this the type of shit that you gotta think about when you fucking around with 50 man. Like, you know, it's like it. It is what it is. This episode is brought to you by Hyundai. The Hyundai getaway sales event is on now with awesome deals on most of their popular models including adventure ready SUVs like the Hyundai Santa Fe and Santa Fe Hybrid. There's also the stylish Elantra packed with the latest tech. Or go electric with the Ioniq 5 or Ioniq 6. Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. Offers in January 5, 2026.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, what fun. Holiday invites are arriving and Nordstrom has your party fits covered. You'll find head to toe looks for every occasion, including styles under 100 dresses, sets, heels and accessories from Bardot Princess Polly, Dolce Vita Naked wardrobe coach and more free styling help. Free shipping and quick order pickup make it easy in stores or online. It's time to go shopping at Nordstrom.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, we got Pharrell.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know. I didn't listen to the audio, though.

[Van Lathan]

You didn't listen to the Pharrell audio? Wanna hear it live?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, let's hear it live.

[Van Lathan]

Let's hear. Pharrell has responded to some of the criticism that people. What? You asked for the response.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I asked for the response.

[Van Lathan]

So Pharrell's giving a response. Give us what Pharrell said. He was at the shoe of the Year Awards 2025 Footwear News Achievement Awards on Wednesday, December 3, and he addressed the backlash. Let's hear what Pharrell had to say.

[Pharrell Williams]

Sound bite this.

Since most people don't like to read or do research anymore. Sound bite this God is the greatest. Sound bite this I'm from Virginia. Sound bite this?

[Van Lathan]

You don't know what I know?

[Pharrell Williams]

You ain't seen what I saw no, you ain't been where I go.

[Van Lathan]

I'm from the mud.

[Pharrell Williams]

As a child, nobody's been evicted more times than me. Lights turned off, water turned off, and at times had to pump the water. And I didn't have a name brand sneaker until I was 16, when I could afford them for my first paycheck from McDonald's.

Sound Bite this. They were Adidas low top instincts. The ones with the laker color.

Sound bite this don't be fooled by my bourgeois taste and heart. I'm proletariat. In fact, I'm lumping proletariat. Sound bite I had to stay on my feet. Sound bite this. But I could never walk in the shoes of my parents. Parents, parents, parents, etc. All they had to endure while staying on their feet. Or my ancestors who arrived as captives in enslaved who had no shoes yet had to stay on their feet as they landed on the shores of Virginia.

As black and brown people on this earth, we have to stay on our feet. We have never had a choice. Sound bite this. We've needed empathy for someone to walk in our shoes. That's why. Sound bite this this. We created black Ambition.

A philanthropic effort to support resource and mentor black and brown startups. Sound bite this. We have allocated $85 million.

To black and brown startups. Sound bite this. That's where the soundbite of me saying I hate politics, which was in response to the DEI support and donations drying up because of new policies. So yes, I got frustrated. And the sound biters, they caught me lacking was sound Bite. I will never stop fighting. I will never stop raising money to help mubble the plain.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm trying to go back. It's like, this was so long ago. I'm trying to remember what. Everything that he said in the first one. I know it's like politics isn't involved, and he doesn't do politics. I even gave him some space. I said, I think he's talking about the left or the right. He's not involved to the. To a political party. And then, do you want to be black or do you want a job? I can't even remember specifically what he said.

Good for Pharrell.

I mean, like, I can't remember exactly what he said the first time to compare it to what he's saying here. What I will say is he was. It seemed like he was reading this, so that was like, he had a speech prepared.

[Van Lathan]

He's accepted an award.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, but he had a speech prepared. So I think that his thoughts were more clear, more succinct, and he was able to get his message, maybe what he was trying to say the first time off a little bit better with reflection, conversations, some criticism, and the fact that it was written down. So there's that. I feel like the sound bite, this part.

A little. A little dig when I feel like maybe it should be. I think what he said is great. And he talked about this the first time, where he's mentioning why he was talking that day, who it was benefiting and how he's pouring into the community. But at the same time, I guess I wish rather than the sound bite this. Sound bite this. Oh, the sound biters. It's almost not as much taking accountability for some of the things that you said that people were offended by or felt like you were taking a. A jab at the black community instead. I wish he would have said more of, like, yeah, he said that they called him slipping sound biters, but more of, like, everything he said at the beginning was to the point that you made when you responded of politics is involved in every step of his life, in our lives as black people. And maybe say I misspoke when I said I'm not involved in it because of this, this, this, this, and this and how I grew up and how, you know, my parents lived and how I lived and all of these things it does. Has impacted my life, and this is what I'm doing. As he goes on to say, to combat those kinds of things, I just. It was fine. It was fine. It was fine. I mean, again, I can't I don't remember exactly what he said, and I wish I could, so I could compare the two. But, you know, it was a little bit of a dig to people who called him out. I don't know if I'm necessarily down for that, because I think that he was rightfully. I think that what he said the first time did come off as problematic. And when you do like someone or you respect someone and you want the best for them, I say this all the time, like, it's like a family member. You call them out, you hold them accountable so they can continue to be their best selves. I feel like that's what was being done towards his first comments. Like, pharrell, we want better from you. You're revered in the black community. You do do stuff in the black community. So we're holding you responsible for your words. And then for him to come back and be like, oh, the sound biters. I don't think you were quite understanding what people were saying.

[Van Lathan]

Hmm.

I wrapped this up in a couple of things that we've talked about. But I'll ask you a question. Do you know why I stopped looking at the Reddit?

[Donnie]

Why?

[Van Lathan]

Because it was personal.

I stopped looking at the Reddit because I realized that a lot of the stuff that was on the Reddit was personal. And by the way, I'm so stupid and such an idiot that I like all of these different forums. Like, I like the conversation. I like people having their opinion. I think it's awesome to see people exchanging their opinion. I think it's awesome whether they love me or hate me. Love you or hate you? Love Bill or hate Bill? You know, Bill, don't look at it like this, but, like, Love Bill, that there's a community based of people that are coming together to have conversations around the stuff that we're saying and the content that we're putting out. I think it's a sign of a healthy product. So I have no problem with it. But I need desperately not to take this podcast personally. I need to invest into this podcast personally with my emotions and with my perspective. But I don't need to take this personally. I don't need to take the perception that people have of me from me sitting here. I don't need to take that personally for two reasons. Number one, they don't really know me.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Right, True.

[Van Lathan]

But number two, it stunts my growth. It stunts your growth to take these things personally.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I agree.

[Van Lathan]

Right. And I had to learn that because I was taking it personally. Popped up on the Reddit one time There was a picture of my mom up there. I was like, what? And now I was thinking, hold on for a second. How far removed am I from, like, whatever is going on? Like, I'm very far removed from that. Like, I'm very far removed from. There's no reason to, like, invest into that. That's somebody that's making their point for whatever reason it is. Don't take it personally. So what's the point of being involved in something that's gonna constantly trigger you in any situation like that? Where the criticisms sometimes are personal, like, they're personal things. A lot of what people said about Pharrell wasn't personal, and this response kind of is. A lot of what people said wasn't personal at all. Yeah, it was about the substance of what was said on the stage right now. I completely agree that.

There was kind of by us. Kind of by us and from other people, a lot of things surrounding that talk that might have made us interact with it in a different way. Had we knew all of the stuff. Had we knew what he was up there for, the question and all of that. I even think about that with the Michael Porter Jr. Situation. I went back and watched the whole interview of Michael Porter Jr. And I watched it because Sophie Cunningham on her podcast responded to it. And when Sophie Cunningham responded to it, she responded to the entire back and forth between Michael Porter Jr. And the ball brothers and the entire back and forth. Whereas it doesn't change the headline, and we all got to think of headline management, people that put stuff out in the world. It did change the thrust of it. He was asked a question, right? And then he was asked a question. He gave an answer, and then he went into.

An intellectual undergirding or sort of. He tried to intellectually give reasons that his opinion is true, like I played them back in the eighth grade. Doesn't change the fact that he's been on that and that's the reason why he was asked and all of that stuff. But he was asked a question. So context does change things sometimes. In this, though, the reason why you don't take this personally.

How can I put this? You don't take this personally if you are in community.

And I keep saying that. So let me give you an example of something.

Do you know who tells you how much they've done for you when you disagree with them?

Your parents.

Your parents do that. So your parents say something. You're 14 or 15 years old. They're voting for somebody you don't like. They're saying something. You disagree with and you say, hey, that's not right from my perspective. I don't, I don't agree with what you're saying. I don't agree with any of that. And then your parent looks at you and he goes, I put food on the table. I put clothes on your back. You have the right to have a conversation with me when you can do that for yourself. Your parents do that. And you go, okay, cool. A lot of times when we're having conversations with our luminaries about things that we disagree with them about, they're very direct about everything that they've done for us.

That's not being in community with someone. That's not what you do. Like, you're, you're, you don't. You, you, you can't shut somebody up with good deeds. And you shouldn't want to. What you should want to do is be like, why are they pissed?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

That doesn't mean that you give into it.

What, what happened here. Because the biggest crime in the world is when your words betray your deeds.

Your deeds should speak for themselves. That is very true.

[Donnie]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

But when your words betray your deeds, that means that your thoughts aren't in tune with your actions. And in order to be a consistent member of any community, your thoughts have to be in tune with your actions, and your actions have to be in tune with your thoughts. You are human and you will that up absolutely. But when you do, hopefully you have enough love and respect for the people that you are in community with that you'll listen to them. But if you big time them, you create eternal enemies. If you big time them and if you remind them of where you are, who you are, how you got there, and what they don't know, then they gonna be like, oh, you not one of us. Cool. So fuck it then. And so to me, everybody. And by the way, when I was on the phone with him, that's what he was doing. When I was on the phone with.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Him, he was big up in you.

[Van Lathan]

Nah. When I was on the phone with him, what we were talking about is the sincerity of what it is that he does and why he does it. And I've had conversations with so many people who really don't have to be doing the shit that they doing. They really don't. But the part of it where we have the conversation and it's not about giving you an award or streaming the music, it's not about being in perpetual celebration of you. It's not about continuously telling you over and over again how great you are, how beautiful you are, how genius you are. When we say, wait a second. That's kind of not. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're not on this level. That's not entirely what this was. But there's a twinge of it. And.

It'S anti community, it's anti partnership, it's anti progress, it's anti movement. To all of the celebrities out there, the people that are doing great work, phenomenal work. Your work does not insulate you from the conversation.

[Donnie]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

It can't insulate you from the conversation. The work is you doing the thing that you are moved to do, but rhetorically. Sometimes we have to talk about the specific utility. The specific utility of that rhetoric. Because that rhetoric, unfortunately, can overshine what it is that you do. Outshine. Should I say what it is that you do. It can. Like.

I want y' all to all think of right now, y', all favorite white celebrity. Think of your favorite white celebrity. They donate $10 million to your 9 Negro, 9 Negro college fund. Who's your favorite. Who's your favorite white celebrity?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I really was trying to think of this.

[Van Lathan]

Now you know who it is. It's Glen Powell.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, that's my friend.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, fine. Glenn Powell.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, so Glenn Powell. Glen Powell makes a $5 million donation to the United Negro College Fund. He gonna send a lot of Negroes to college. Cause that's what they do. And they gonna pledge. They gotta pledge. That's one of the rules. They gotta get into that shit.

[Donnie]

Okay?

[Van Lathan]

Oh, God. So he gives that money legitimately, sends kids to college.

Five months later, he's doing an interview, and he says, you know what? Not doing an interview. Five months later, his N word tapes come out. Your friend Glenn is like, yeah, man. Like, I love to ride horses, but I don't like seeing niggers at my ranch.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He would never say this.

[Van Lathan]

You don't know that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Come on, keep going.

[Van Lathan]

It matters.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes, it would. Of course.

[Van Lathan]

It matters. And you can come out and after that, you can come out and say, hey, just to let y' all know, I do this, I gave $5 million to your 9 Negro college fund. We're gonna be like, yeah, that's true. But when you say nigger, a lot of people around the country, they go, oh, my God. It's okay. If Glenn says N, you are a celebrity and your words matter.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, that's it. That's a good point. It's a good point. Cause that's what I was gonna say when you were saying all that. The only Thing I was gonna say in response to what you said is you were like, you're not in community with us. I think you were talking about his response or him taking it personal.

[Van Lathan]

I'm not saying he's not. I'm saying that sometimes celebrity insulates you from that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Correct. And I only. My only thought was.

The comment from the beginning was not in community.

[Van Lathan]

Well, he thought that it was.

What he was trying to say.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know.

[Van Lathan]

And what he was responding to was the way he felt like community should adapt to the current political situation that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We'Re in with who he is as a person. And that's why it came off. And that's why I was like, be receptive. That's why I love the personal.

Part that you're talking about. Be receptive to what people are saying and when you come. But when your response is, this is for the sound biters, it's like you're not understanding what people are saying. That's what I just don't like about it. It's like the way you're talking to the community in essence, because it wasn't sound bitters. It was the community who was talking. Feels a little bit still like you're up here and we're. And we're down here.

[Van Lathan]

Let me give you an example of some self criticism. All right, So.

I feel like Ryan Clark made a video and the video was almost. I feel like he was directly.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He was talking to you.

[Van Lathan]

I feel like he was talking to me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, that's why I added you.

[Van Lathan]

That's why he added me. I feel like he was talking to me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He said not stop.

He wrote. He was like, why are you sending the back call?

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. So let me tell you. Let me tell you why I had no problem with it, though. Because he's right. He's not right. That I shouldn't have been critical of what Odell Beckham Jr said.

But I owe it to not. God damn, nigga, you need. Can someone find some pork for Rachel?

[Rachel Lindsay]

I ate this morning. I don't know why my stomach is doing this.

[Van Lathan]

Double pork chops.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I can't. I have to have a low sodium diet right now because of the surgery.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. So I. The bombastic and fiery way that I delivered that message was not helpful. The message is very simple and clear, is we now have to stop having the conversation about how $12 million goes so fast. I just. I don't. I'm not. I'm never changing that. That. That it is the young brothers that are in abundance. That abundance is a responsibility, however, I owe it to have. I owe it to my audience and to myself and to my community to have that conversation in a way that's contextually honest about all of the different things at play. And by the way, in a way that.

Reinforces why I'm so particularly triggered about the conversation in 2025. And I didn't do that. I didn't do that. And that's the thing. I can, like, go. I remain unchanged in my opinion. But the delivery method matters. So, you know, hopefully when we're in criticism or in correction or calling in, like so many calling in, hopefully we'll do it in a responsible way. We want to do it out all the time. But this response was, I get it. I totally get it. I totally understand it. But we're all works in progress.

[Governor Wes Moore]

How does that sound?

[Rachel Lindsay]

We are. That sounds Great.

[Van Lathan]

All right, B.D. wong.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, let's move past.

[Van Lathan]

Gotta do it.

Rachel.

[Jacqueline Coley]

Apology Rating time. Actor BD Wong ignited backlash after commenting on a post from Mike Holston, AKA the Real Tarzan. Holston, who was black, posted a photo with an animal and he captioned it name this animal. Wrong answers only. And BD Wong commented, it appears to be a black man. This is what BD said, y'.

[Van Lathan]

All.

[Jacqueline Coley]

I made a very bad joke, as most people in hot water do. I deleted it for damage control. But it's out there and continues to hurt and disappoint. And I'm really sorry about the hurt part. Super dumb. But I tried to follow the wrong answers only prompt with the wrongest answer. This succeeded only in that it was super wrong. I know nobody gets a free pass. I'm sorry if this what the F. BD moment tarnish any respect you may have had for me. And thanks if you advocate for an Internet that's safe for everybody. Then he elaborates that it's a racist comment that he posted. And to clarify that he recognizes and accepts the responsibility for how terrible it is, it's also wrong to try to explain anything, and I think that causes a further breakdown in trust. So he wants to spend energy on how wrong he knows it is to exploit a despicable racist trope in the supposed spirit of humor, he knows now to do better. But again, no excuses. Very sorry. Wraps it up there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I mean, this one's tough because I'm such a fan of Law and Order svu, even though I know BD Wong is never is never on there.

Because I like him. I like him. So it bothers me that this happened, especially because I feel like there are episodes where he dealt with racism on the show. Right? So no, I'm giving some background. Okay. I'm giving some background. Here's a positive. I will say he acknowledges that it was racist. Right? He doesn't just say I'm sorry. He says this was racist. You don't always see that. People just say, I'm sorry. I'm not like that. I don't say those things anymore. I do appreciate being direct and saying I. I wanna elaborate. Elaborate. It was racist. Cuz that's exactly what it was. This isn't no wrong answers only. I'm trying to win the contest. You said the quiet part out loud. And I have a hard time believing that this is a one off. You wrote this. You use your fingers to type in a one off.

[Van Lathan]

In what sense?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like that. You've never said something like this before.

[Van Lathan]

Interesting.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It appears to be a black man. Like to me, you thought about it. You took the time to type it out and then you press send like this. In 2025, you thought that this would be funny to who? I have to ask you. Which it makes me question BD Wong completely. I gotta give this apology rating. I gotta give him a two.

There's something that he said that he says, as most people in hot water do, I deleted it for damage control.

So he deleted it because he probably thought, oh, I deleted it quickly, thinking that it wouldn't catch fire. But then he said, but it's out there and continues to hurt and disappoint. So makes me believe now you want to apologize because it's out there. You tried to get rid of it. So that was your first, your first reaction wasn't to say, hey, this is a racist. This is a racist comment. And I'm sorry. You said, let me delete this for damage control. Oh shit, Somebody got caught. It, it's out there. Now let me go apologize. So for that it's a two. This is disappointing. Bd.

[Van Lathan]

What if his response would have been it appears to be a man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I still would have seen a black man.

[Van Lathan]

I would have looked at that like, bd, you fucked up. But it would have been less direct than it appears to be a black man. The black there is doing a lot of work.

[Rachel Lindsay]

A lot.

[Van Lathan]

BD fucked up. BD fucked up. Apologize. You got your two apology rating. Now we can have another conversation about the fact that we're aware of how black people have been treated in the past and beastified and animal fied and all of that stuff. And we don't appreciate that Right? We don't. We're not going for that. I don't know if BD knew in his mind what he was typing was super racist or if he had any idea of the historical context of it. I don't know that. I can't say that he's a racist because of what he did.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, he said it was a racist comment.

[Van Lathan]

It was a racist comment. But I can't say that that means that he's always thought racist stuff. I can't say that. I get. I get what it means. My mom used to always say, you pop a pimple, you only expose what's on the top. It brewed up from the bottom. So I get that. I sometimes don't believe that. I sometimes shy away from that. But I'll say this. You know what this really gives us the opportunity to do? To talk about the real Tarzan. That nigga crazy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We've talked about him before. You just learned about him.

[Van Lathan]

That nigga something else, man. Like, I never thought we should have him on that. We should have him on. I never thought it could be a brother that exists in that space. Cause it's brothers now. That's existing in the animal space. It's him. It's a brother on Twitter called Crocodile Cam. Have you ever seen him?

[Rachel Lindsay]

No.

[Van Lathan]

Crocodile Cam out here. Brothers into animals. The one guy that was into animals from back in the day. Remember him with all the deer? No. You don't remember the guy with the deer? Donnie, you don't remember the guy with the deer?

[Governor Wes Moore]

I don't.

[Jacqueline Coley]

You gotta elaborate.

[Van Lathan]

He's trippin'. There was a. Oh, God. Brother Nature. Y' all don't remember Brother Nature?

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's vaguely the name, but I can't see.

[Van Lathan]

He apparently fucked up in some kind of way. I was wondering what happened to Brother Nature? And then people were like, he. Then I saw this video of him, and he apparently fucked up in some way. So I guess he is out of the animal space. But I want to do a deep dive into the black man animal space. This is liberating. I see the real Tarzan with snakes.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, he's wild.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Boar. And fucking around with goddamn lions and all of that shit. Snake. Big ass snake. What's wrong with you?

[Rachel Lindsay]

But you like it?

[Van Lathan]

I think it's great. I think it's great. You know why?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why?

[Van Lathan]

This is our birthright.

[Governor Wes Moore]

What do you mean it's our birthright, man?

[Van Lathan]

White people go and they go over to Africa, they see the animals and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then they send their friends in they kill all the animals, right? Know who lived with the animals and understood the animals and talked to the animals, lived in symbiosis with the animals. Understood, respected, and dealt with the animal. You know, who was a friend of the tiger, the black man.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So if it's your birthright, would you get out there? If Tarzan's like, hey, I don't wanna come in studio. I want you out in the field. No, but it's your birthright.

[Van Lathan]

So what?

So is freedom. Hadn't got that yet. So I'm not, I'm not. No. I will observe Tarzan doing his thing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We'll have to let him bring an animal in here.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, let. Well, a bird.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No. Who told you that?

[Van Lathan]

So then.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no, no.

[Van Lathan]

So no, I told you that, but see how it could get flipped on you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You said an animal, a bird. Who told you that? Bird.

[Van Lathan]

We could bring a bird in here. Let him come in here with a big ass fucking falcon. See how you like that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Take us out.

[Van Lathan]

All right, we gotta go. We have to leave right now. But before we go, we're gonna give you our interview with Governor Wes Moore, which was fantastic. We're giving you the interview with Governor Wes Moore. And we are making a pledge here at Higher Learning. We're going to have all of the. Perspective. Did I say that word right? Perspective? Is it perspective? We're going to have all of the candidates in 2028 on here. Higher Learning decides.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We love that. It's a call in.

[Van Lathan]

It's a call in. Higher Learning decides. So we've had Gavin, we've had Wes. Who are the other people? Throw some names out. Shapiro, Madam Vice President, JB Prince, Pritzer. Maybe Gretchen Whitmer. We've had Ro Khanna on before. Some people are mentioning Roe.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Hopefully Kamala Harris.

[Van Lathan]

She said, Madam vice president. Hopefully AOC. Anybody?

[Rachel Lindsay]

2020.

[Donnie]

A.

[Van Lathan]

Some. Some people throw their names out there. We don't know. There's gonna be a couple of wild cards that jump in there. We don't know. We want to have them all on so that you guys can look through. Look at them through the lens of the thought wars. Right? And another thing, before we go and get to Governor Westmore, man, we really appreciate the growth that the podcast is experiencing. All you guys listening, Spotify rap came out, it dropped and you know, it was a whole big deal. There was a party was in there. They gave away jackets, food. I was here working when it happened, but I didn't go to the party. So we appreciate you guys listening.

[Jacqueline Coley]

We do.

[Van Lathan]

And supporting us throughout the year. We, we, we really do. So we made your Spotify wrapped and you send it to me. I will repost it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, yeah. Post. Yeah, we will repost it because I.

[Van Lathan]

Think it's awesome that we are in community together.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yep.

[Jacqueline Coley]

All right.

[Van Lathan]

Governor Westmore is on the other side of this. This episode is brought to you by McAfee. You want to live your online life worry free.

[Governor Wes Moore]

But with all those identity thefts and.

[Van Lathan]

Data leaks we all keep hearing about, it's not easy. Choose McAfee's award winning protection to keep those scammers away. Keep your data and identity safe. Plans start at just 39.99 for your first year. All you have to do is find out [e-mail] keepitreal. Cancel anytime terms apply.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, what fun. Holiday invites are arriving and Nordstrom has your party fits covered. You'll find head to toe looks for every occasion, including styles under 100, dresses, sets, heels and accessories from Bardot, Princess Polly, Dolce Vita, naked wardrobe coach, and more. Free styling help, Free shipping and quick order pickup. Make it easy in stores or online. It's time to go shopping at Nordstrom.

[Van Lathan]

Guys, we are blessed right now. We are very fortunate to have one of the bright rising, not rising, one of the bright shining stars of the Democratic Party. Maryland Governor West Moore joins us today on Higher Learning. Gov. How you doing, man?

[Governor Wes Moore]

I'm great, man. I'm happy to be here with y'.

[Rachel Lindsay]

All. We're happy to have you.

[Van Lathan]

You were talking about your hate for the Cowboys a second ago.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Hate or love? I'm sorry.

[Van Lathan]

No, no. Wes Moore was not talking about the fact that he hates the Cowboys. He was keeping it real about the Cowboys right there.

[Governor Wes Moore]

I do hate the Cowboys, though.

[Van Lathan]

You hate the Cowboys, but why?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Well, first of all, because there goes Texas Wes. Oh, I do. Oh, I'm clear. I, I, I do not. I do not root for the boys.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Governor Wes Moore]

I do not root for them. I don't. Because, and here's the thing, y' all have maybe some of the most annoying fans in all of football.

[Rachel Lindsay]

More than Philly.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yes, yes. And Philly fans, Philly fans can work your last nerve, too. But here's the thing about Cowboys fans. Y' all are so arrogant. And I keep on saying, like, I'm sorry, when was the last time y' all won anything?

[Van Lathan]

When Tupac was alive.

[Rachel Lindsay]

He always does this.

[Van Lathan]

Tupac was legitimately the hottest rapper. The last time they won, I was 16.

[Jacqueline Coley]

I'm just.

[Van Lathan]

Tupac was a lot.

[Donnie]

Think about that.

[Van Lathan]

I'm 45 years old. That's a long time for us to still be talking about the Cowboys.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Why are people upset that we have so much pride in our team, that we're so hopeful for our team? That's really all it is. Maybe there's a t. A little bit of delusion sprinkled in there, but we just are rooting for our team. That's. It's just that simple.

[Governor Wes Moore]

But I will, I will say this thing about. About Cowboys fans, though, is Cowboys fans are loyal.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Like, when the team is good, when the team is not good, Cowboys fans, they talk more shit than anybody else. And it does not matter how the Cowboys are performing on, on the field. And I. And I do. There is a level of. Of respect for that.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thank you. And now we're up.

[Governor Wes Moore]

So now we're up. And now all these new. Oh, I'm a Cowboys fan. I was like. Really? Were you? I can't stand the bandwagon. The bandwagon, folks, on any team. We'll see how long it lasts.

[Van Lathan]

All right, the pleasantries are over. Let's get to kicking Wes's ass. No, I'm just jok.

[Governor Wes Moore]

So ready for that, too.

[Van Lathan]

So, look, we have to start off with something that we addressed here on Higher Learning, which was the veto of some reparations legislation that happened in Maryland. Yes. Now, we had Jessica and Mitchell Iwoyer on Higher Learning to talk about that, to try to make of it for people. I'm going to play a question that I asked her and her response and just try to see if we can get some clarity on what your perspective was in the legislative action that you took here. Here's the sound bite. Brass tacks. Is the governor lying?

[Donnie]

I don't think the governor is lying. I think the governor is figuring out a way to evade accountability that would. The type of accountability that would be by law. So if he doesn't go through with the commission and he says, well, I have my own forms of reparations, we're going to do racial wealth gap. He's going to make a whole declaration on Juneteenth the race, closing the racial wealth gap. Okay. And he's already uplifted home ownership and businesses and all of that. Tomorrow something could happen in this nation or something political could happen behind the scenes, and then he could change his mind on whatever initiative they're working on. And it wouldn't be illegal to do that because there's no entity or bill holding them accountable specific to reparations. So I don't think that the governor is lying, per se. I think that we're not getting the whole truth. And I think that this is a way for him to be able to navigate this terrain according to. Works best. What works best for him politically.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. So essentially, what happened there was. There was a study that was looked to be codified into Maryland law. You vetoed that study. Okay. And then the reverberations of that across the country were you're vetoing the progress of reparations in the state of Maryland. We brought on Jessica to talk to us about it, and I guess her take was that you were doing that to make sure that you didn't ruffle feathers politically.

[Donnie]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Okay. What was the reason that you vetoed it and try to make sense of that to people that look at reparations as a necessary conversation for African American people? Yeah.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Well, first, I have all love and respect for Jessica and the work that she does and for this issue. I mean, as Jessica will attest to, she talked about two different things here. One is the work that we are actively. That we are doing right now, the action items that we are doing. Right. So I don't think Jessica is arguing that. Jessica is arguing that we are actually doing action. We're doing the work of repair right now. And also, I think she would also argue that this is a very personal issue for me as well. You know, that it. You know, people say, you know, you're the only black governor in the country and, you know, one of the youngest governors in the country, only black governor in America, only the third African American ever elected governor in the history of the United States of America. But this issue is still even more personal to me than even just that. Because, like my grandfather, the earliest memories that he had was of this country racially neglecting him was a Ku Klux Klan running my family out of this country. That, for me, the earliest. One of the earliest memories I have was watching my father die in front of me when I was three because he didn't get the health care he needed. So, like, this is a very personal issue for me when we're talking about what is the legacy of chattel slavery? What is the legacy of Jim Crow? What is a legacy of redlining? What is a legacy of these really creative and horrifically racist policies that have been bestowed upon my state and this country? The thing that I would say, though, when people are talking about the study is, did you actually read the bill? Because if you read the bill, you will see that what the bill is, it's a Two and a half year study on something that I don't need to study, that we have had four studies in the past 20 years in the state of Maryland alone on these types of issues. One of, and I know that for a fact because one of which my wife worked on. And so now at a time when we have a black senator in our state, a black speaker of the house, a black attorney general and a black governor, the definition of bold is another study. During the same time that I vetoed that study, you know what I also did? I also allocated over $1.3 billion to Maryland's HBCUs historic number, over a 60% increase from my predecessor. During the same time, the action steps. Right. During the same time that I vetoed the study, do you know what I also did? I introduced a bill and signed a bill on procurement reform making sure that black owned businesses are getting their fair share of state government contracts. We have now allocated over $800 million to Black owned businesses in the state of Maryland since I've been the governor, a historic number, creating more black millionaires in our state than we have seen in times past. You know, at the same time that we did that, that I vetoed a study, I created a new department in our state, the Department of Social and Economic Mobility, focusing on how can we protect these platforms for, for black businesses and inclusion of diversity and inclusion platforms despite the fact that the federal government is trying to sue us for it. You know, we also did, during that same period of time, I pardoned not just over 175,000 misdemeanor cannabis convictions in the stroke of a pen, the largest mass pardon in the history of the United States of America. And by the way, last Juneteenth I pardoned another 7,000 people and also allocated $400 million going exclusively towards black communities and communities that have been historically neglected and historically hit by Jim Crow policies, by the history of chattel slavery, by the history of unfair appraisal values in historically red lined neighborhoods, by mass incarceration. So we're doing the work I'm doing. I am. We are actively doing the work of repair. And the issue that I had with that bill, and I hope people actually take a look at the language of the bill, is that it goes back to the same frustration that I have about how are we responding in this moment that we are watching the greatest assault on black female employment in the history of the United States of America taking place right now. No one is walking up to me and saying, but what about my two and a Half year study, that this is the paternalistic permission structure politics that oftentimes when people say when you don't want to deal with something difficult, do a study, and that's how you deal with it. Well, I actually want to deal with it now.

[Van Lathan]

Governor Moore. I think what people would say to that is that the reparations movement that has been championed for a long time by people like Jessica, people like Yvette Cornell, tone talks.

That part of that is having what Jessica said in the interview is having these studies which she actually calls reparations trials, which makes places like the state of Maryland or any other state or, you know, district that you might be in have to legally commit to investigating historic disparity and actually doing things as codified by law to take those steps of repair. I actually, when this first happened, I didn't understand the veto either, but I understand the rationale, action over a study. When she came on though, she was actually very, very convincing in the fact that these studies forcing places like Maryland, California, Louisiana, Texas, wherever they're going to happen, forcing them by law to have to commit resources to looking at all of the repair that's needed in those communities is very important. And reparationists across the country would say that they are also very important. Do you not think that making them do that work by law is important, or do you think there are other ways that we can do it to where we don't need that?

[Governor Wes Moore]

I do think it's important, but that's not this bill. That's the point. Read the bill. Because that's not what this bill is. That's not what this bill does, what Jessica's talking about. There's an admiration that I have for what Jessica's talking about. And frankly, if we want to talk about other states, for perfect example, I did not have the equivalent of AB7 sent to my desk.

[Van Lathan]

AB7 here, sorry, California. California, yeah.

[Governor Wes Moore]

That bill was not sent to my desk.

[Van Lathan]

So it's not the same thing.

[Governor Wes Moore]

I actually agree with a lot of the merits in AB7. You know what bill was sent to my desk? A two and a half year study. That's my point. What Jessica's talking about, I actually think is righteous. That's not what was sent to my desk.

[Van Lathan]

Last question on this. We can move on. Do you view reparations as a divisive political issue in America or do you view reparations as a political issue in America that is central to understanding the historic disenfranchisement of black people and is also central in Doing the repair to black communities that America has refused to do in its history.

[Governor Wes Moore]

I mean, you have to. You cannot look at the history of this country and think that we don't need to be able to be very serious about the harm that was done to black people in this country. I mean, like this. Loving your country does not mean lying about its history, certainly. And I think particularly we're coming up to the 250 year anniversary for the state of Maryland. We've been doing a lot and I've been very clear that in this process of celebrating the 250, I'm gonna make sure that we tell our accurate history flaws and all that this state and this nation is remarkable. It is, I truly believe, the greatest experiment in world history. This idea that you can have a representative democracy, bringing people from around the world to all believe in the same central concept. But I think we need to be very honest about the fact that the United States has not completely figured this thing out.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Governor Wes Moore]

That this is still very much a work in progress that, you know, in my state, we are the northernmost southern state in this country. The bloodiest battles of the Civil War were fought in the state of Maryland.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Governor Wes Moore]

That we were. That we were the home of Harriet Tubman in the home of Frederick Douglass. That we were the birthplace of redlining. The same policies that we were seeing all across the United States. Guess where it started? Maryland. Baltimore, Maryland. And so I absolutely believe that we need to have the work of repair and what reparative action means and how it should take place and what it should look like. I absolutely believe that this idea that we should wait on it or take a long time to figure out with that, like, no, absolutely not. I think we've got to move now. And I think, and frankly, particularly in Maryland, we have a unique opportunity to do it. And that's my only point.

[Van Lathan]

So if the right legislation comes across.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Your desk, you will sign it 100%.

[Van Lathan]

Fair enough.

[Governor Wes Moore]

And like, and again, something like AB7 did not make it to my desk.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, fair enough.

[Governor Wes Moore]

A two and a half year study did.

[Van Lathan]

Fair enough.

[Governor Wes Moore]

And so it got my veto.

[Van Lathan]

There you go.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Makes sense. I want to go back a little bit because I feel like a lot of times people see the finished product and don't necessarily know what it takes to get there. And you have a very interesting upbringing. When you talked a little bit about your family just now when you were responding to what Van was saying, and if you could just maybe talk a little bit about to the thought warriors, like who you are and how you got to the place. I know that's a lot, that's a loaded question. But just kind of like who you are and how you got here.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Or.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Maybe who was the influential in your life to get here? Because your story is very interesting.

[Governor Wes Moore]

It is. I mean, and I tell people I'm, I'm probably the most improbable governor in this country.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I like that.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yeah, I mean, I, I do, I do too. But, and, and the people, the Maryland people stated Maryland seem, seem to like it too. But it's like.

I mean, I'm literally, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I had handcuffs in my wrist by the time I was 11.

My mother didn't get her first job that gave her benefits and, TILL I was 14 years old.

And so, and I tell people, when people talk about, you know, like, you know, when people talk about things like the racial wealth gap, which is one of the big motivations that I have for why I wanted to run, and things like, you know, unfair, you know, unfair pay between men and women, I explain to people I don't need a white paper to explain that. Like, I grew up in it. Like, I'm, I'm, I joined the army when I was 17 years old. I think I'm the only governor in this country that graduated from a two year college. So like, my journey has never been one that has been even and has never been one where people could have predicted and said, oh yeah, he's going to be a governor one day. But I think that that's what in many ways gives me the urgency about this work that I'm in is like, I'm not a political animal. I don't come from a political family. I, I, I always say when I said I was going to run for governor, when I told my family I had to convince many members of my family to vote for me. And, and it's not because we're not cool. Like, my family and I are cool.

[Van Lathan]

What the hell?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like that.

[Governor Wes Moore]

But it's like, but it's because I had to convince them to vote.

Because like, that's not that for many members of my family, that's just not the culture. Right. And I think people have been very, the frustration that people have about politics, the frustration people have about the Democratic Party, the frustration, you know, and I, and I see people trying to like cast off or explain it. I was like, no, I don't explain it, embrace it, because it's real and it's justified. Because we always talk about How. I don't understand how you can simply. How you can say, yeah, we care about, you know, the working people, but you got a minimum wage of $8 an hour. How you can say, I care about creating wealth in communities, but you have restricting housing policies that are now not allowing to participate in something that actually is one of the greatest wealth creators that we have in our society, which is homeownership. And so I move with an urgency. I move with a. I try to move with a speed that's kind of let people know that, A, I'm not playing, but also, B, let them know that my time here is short. For all of us, our time here is short. I literally keep a clock that sits on my desk. Let me know how many days I got every single day. And the reason for that is because I'm not trying to waste one of them. And so I think that's very much the philosophy that I've taken, is that, again, I don't come from. I'm not a political animal like the Democratic Party didn't make me. I was not the choice of the Democratic Party. When I first became the governor, there were millions of dollars, in fact, from the Democratic Party put against me. But the thing that I know is that I'm not beholden to anybody, anything, any party, nor any group. I am who I am. And so that's just how we try to move with a real sense of creating work, wages, and wealth for all of our people and not just some. Because I think that's gonna be the answer on how we get out of this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You've done so much for the state of Maryland. You've pushed forward so many initiatives, and you talked about some of them even just now. But out of all the things, what's the issue that keeps you up at night? Like, if you had a. A cheat code and you could fix any problem. What's that issue in Maryland, Child poverty. And why? I mean, I know why, but you know what I mean.

[Governor Wes Moore]

I just don't think it's fair that we're deciding the fate of our children before they even have a say. And the issue with child poverty, for me is that it's so concentrated and it's so generational, and it's all. It's urban, it's rural, it's suburban.

You know, one of the things that we've done that I'm most proud of is we passed something called the Enough act, and it's an entire initiative in our state government. And Enough is actually an acronym. It stands for Engaging neighborhoods, organizations, unions, governments and households or basically la di da da everybody. And it is the country's first state led place based investment strategy on how we deal with the issue of childhood poverty where we are putting concentrated resources into communities. We're not telling them how it needs to be allocated or used. It's basically letting the community tell us here's what we need and here's how we deal with this issue. And in our state we've done things like making permanent the child tax credit, we have an enhanced earned income tax credit, we're incentivizing work that we have raised the minimum wage inside of the state of Maryland because I don't know how anyone can work a job or in some cases multiple jobs and still at or below a poverty line that we've been able to quadruple the amount of capital and amount of apprenticeship and trade slots that we have. We have some of the best four year colleges in America to include four remarkable HBCUs. But I'm also very clear that every single one of our students don't need to attend one of them in order to be economically successful. That we have to invest in trade programs and apprenticeship programs, that we have to invest in entrepreneurs. We put historic amounts of money into entrepreneurship initiatives, giving people the capital because we know that when people are looking for their friends and family round, not everybody has the same friends and not everybody same family. So how are we making sure we're democratizing capital that are going towards our entrepreneurs so they can turn ideas into long term ideas? If we can solve the issue of childhood poverty, I could put my head on a pillow tonight and never open my eyes again. And I'd be good because I feel like I did my job.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Just one quick follow up to that. It's being reported that President Trump said that right after Mamdani won his election, he called himself the Affordability President or something along those lines. And now it's being reported that he's saying that affordability is a Democrat scam. What's your response to that?

[Governor Wes Moore]

This is who he is, but we're talking about someone who's never had to worry about affordability because he's never had to worry about affordability. Like, like real talk, like this is a man who was, he's never had to go in a store and look at prices. He's never had to worry about where your next meal is coming from. You know when, when he was sitting there literally breaking the law to starve people, when he was cutting off snap for people and People asked me my opinion and I said, why do I think that Donald Trump cares about snap? He doesn't know what it is. He's never had to deal with it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Governor Wes Moore]

He doesn't know what it's like for a family who is literally right now wondering, am I gonna have enough money to make it to the end of the month to make sure that my children are gonna be okay. He's never had to think about the fact that we have kids who are going into classrooms hungry and you cannot learn if you are hungry. So, you know, the idea that he thinks affordability is a scam or whatever, I was like, yeah, because when you have tariff policies that are making everything more expensive, when you, when, when energy prices have risen over 20% since you've been the presidents of the United States, you know, I understand why you think it's a scam, because, you know, he knows this is something he has no interest in actually dealing with, and so he's just trying to pawn it off now because he knows there are electoral disadvantages for the fact that the vast majority of people in this country, while you don't understand affordability, the vast majority of these people in this country do.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Or else they die. Exactly. So.

The most expensive project, state funded project in Maryland history is a jail. Yes, it's a jail that you guys are building. I asked around all of my super lefty friends. What do you want me to ask the governor about? A lot of it was sports talk. We're going to get into some of that later. But we have to talk about the investment. Maryland is one of the only states, I think it might be the only state where you guys. Where the state controls the actual city detention centers. Right. And you guys are spending.

[Governor Wes Moore]

I think there's a few others, but.

[Jacqueline Coley]

But we.

[Van Lathan]

Well, what one of the states. Well, like you guys are spending $1 billion on a jail, which I'm going to be honest with you, Governor, the headline from, to a person like me looks bad. It looks bad to commit that type of money. Money that could be going to a lot of other places to a place where people are going to be incarcerated. I read up on it and it seems that there's mixed use for it. There are mental health facilities in there, there are treatment facilities in there. But it is a hell of a lot of money to spend on one big county prison. Why is that necessary?

[Governor Wes Moore]

And it's a. And so they had it as a women's pre release facility. And I understand what people are talking about. The need. I Get all that. These are decisions actually frankly made before I became the governor and even when I was running and now as governor I have said I have very real challenges and issues with this and I understand some of these decisions were made before I got on board. I get that. I also know this. We are in the process of showing people that you do not have to choose between saying we want our communities to be safer and we have to stop the reality that Maryland locks up more young black and brown boys than any state in this country. By the way, number two is Mississippi.

We can both say we're going to make people safer, but the answer to make people making people safer is not locking up entire communities. And I think if you looked at what's happened over the past two and a half years since I've been the governor, we've had amongst the fastest drops in violent crime anywhere in the United States of America. Right. The year before I became the governor, Baltimore City was averaging almost a homicide a day. A day that we saw how the eight year period before I became the governor, Maryland's homicide rate nearly doubled. Its non fatal shooting rate did double. Now two and a half years later, we're now seeing that Baltimore City, the last time the homicide rate was this low in Baltimore City, I wasn't born yet. We're seeing now that homicide rates are had historic drops, homicide non fatal shootings and property crimes at historic drops that we're having all, not even just Baltimore, all throughout the state of Maryland and, and we've been able to do things like have the largest mass pardons in the history of the United States of America and also be able to say frankly that I am going to use the powers that are vested in me as the current governor, despite the decisions made by previous governors to be able to say is that the right use of resources and platforms. Because I don't think we have to choose between saying we have to address the over incarceration that is taking place and that has historically taken place within the state of Maryland, particularly for our young black and brown boys in particular. And I can get on that in a second too and saying that we have to address the issue of violence. And so for people who are saying, I think people will also say that, you know, I'm actually despite again the decision being made before I came on board, you know, I'm actually the first governor to actually say actually we need to think critically about this because I don't know if this is the right, the right usage.

[Van Lathan]

You're not sure if it's the right usage. Are you saying that there is a chance that maybe you take a real critical eye on scaling back some of the money that's going to that project?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yeah, I understand the argument what people saying, what the needs were and why initial capital was argued and particularly for this women's pre release center. What I'm also saying is, is that in this moment we have the flexibility to think critically about whether that's the right space and whether that's the right capital usage. And I think it's important that not just I, but for the General assembly who also approved it, that they're willing to do the same thing.

[Van Lathan]

Donnie, I want you to look up a name real quick. Go to Mayor Brandon Scott's Instagram. Cause I wanna talk about what you guys have been able to do.

[Governor Wes Moore]

That's my guy.

[Van Lathan]

If he was white, they would make him the Pope.

I'm not bullshitting you at all, but I'm being completely honest. The thing that's holding America back from recognizing guys like Randall Woofin, guys like Brandon Scott.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Shout out to Randall Wolfen.

[Van Lathan]

Shout out to Randall Wolfen, like, is the fact that they are black. I saw on Mayor Scott's page this sister that was talking. Donnie, the reason why I wanted you to look it up is because this sister moved me as she was talking about just as the.

Violence is a virus, but so is curing violence. Talking about the work that they were doing in Baltimore and how she has noticed. You'll be able to find her somewhere, Donnie. How she has noticed that the work that they have done changing the culture of violence in the city has been catching on just like the violence catches on. What is the success story in places like Baltimore that America had deemed hopeless? Why is what you guys doing working?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yeah, well, it's working because we're actually working together. You know, one thing, one thing that we have seen is. And shout out to Brandon Scott because he has been working and fighting on these issues for a very long time. Even frankly, before he became the mayor, when he was just on the city council on these issues.

[Jacqueline Coley]

And.

[Governor Wes Moore]

And Mayor Scott will tell you the story where he's like, it took me eight months just to get a meeting with the old governor. He's like, and how do you. I just never understood this idea where people could say, because they would ask me, why do you spend so much time on Baltimore? Why do you spend so much time focusing on Baltimore? I said, and I said, they're like, oh, it's because, you know, it's because you're a homer because you're from there, said, no, because I'm good at math. It's the state's largest city. These are my folks. And so you cannot have a thriving state if the state's largest city is not thriving. Bren and I probably. Now, Bren and I probably talk, you know, probably at least every other day. And so it's like there is a real partnership, and it's a partnership that understands that. Is there a role for local law enforcement? Of course there's a role for local law enforcement. And I've made historic investments in local law enforcement. Is there a role for supportive of technologies to make sure that if someone commits a violent crime, particularly with a firearm, I want them held accountable? And as I've said, clearly, someone commits a violent crime with a firearm, I want them in handcuffs in 24 hours. Is there a role for that? Absolutely, there's a role for that. And the state helps us support that. We made historic funding in those things. But also, is there a role for the community, for community violence interrupters, how.

[Van Lathan]

To keep that person out of handcuffs.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Exactly. And how to. And how to make sure. Because so much of the violence we're seeing is retaliatory by nature. It's like, it's like, you know, Van, you get me now, Rach come back and she's gonna get three of your people.

[Van Lathan]

Nah, she be on your side.

[Governor Wes Moore]

But, you know, but it's like, but. But it's retaliatory violence.

[Van Lathan]

That's the disease.

[Governor Wes Moore]

And this combination of. This combination of mental illness, anger and firearms is a really, really dangerous cocktail that we've had existing for so long. And frankly, we have had a level of neglect when it comes to how our state moved before I became the governor. And now everyone in my state knows, no, this is a priority. And I'm checking on everybody on making sure that this is a priority. And so the results that we've been able to see in Baltimore, results we've been able to see all throughout the state of Maryland, they are absolutely undeniable. The numbers we're seeing out of Prince George's county, the numbers seeing out of Montgomery county, like we are watching a state wide drop that is unprecedented. And it's because we're doing something really unique. We're working together to be able to accomplish these goals.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's crazy that you say that that's unique because that should be 101. You would think that everyone would be wanting to work together for the greater good of the city, the state, the country, Whatever it may be, one of those things that you did mention that you're using to combat.

The things. I guess the historic nature of Baltimore is education. I was a substitute teacher. My mom was educator for 20 plus years. This is something I still work with teachers to this day. And you have the grow your own educators program where you are pouring back into the teaching profession, but particularly prioritizing male teachers as well. Can you talk about what concrete changes you expect from that and how you feel like pouring that program and pouring into the community in that way is great for the youth, black and brown.

[Governor Wes Moore]

I, when we came on board, I said, listen, we're going to make a priority lifting up our young men and boys. And I remember I got a lot of heat on it because people were like, you know.

What does this mean about our women and girls? And so I said, listen, it's not binary for me, y'.

[Donnie]

All.

[Governor Wes Moore]

It's not like we're going to focus on men and boys and we're going to completely neglect our women and girls. We're going to keep on lifting up our women and girls 100%. But you cannot look at the data and think that everything is okay. You cannot look at the fact that we have suicide rates that are three times for boys than what it is for girls. You cannot look at the fact that college attainment has not moved since 1967 and think that everything's okay. You can't look at the fact that we have a program called now an award winning program in Maryland called Thrive, where we identify, and it's working well in Baltimore too. We identify the young people who have the highest probability of being either being the victim or the perpetrator of gun violence. And it's open to all young people. You cannot neglect the fact that 98% of them are boys. There's something going on that we have to be honest about. And so when I said if you really want to lift up women and girls, make sure the men and boys are okay. And so we made these investments to pump more male teachers inside of the classroom, help to support mentorship programs, help to make sure that our young men and boys are being, are being lifted up and seeing as assets and not as deficits. And so the education system was a really big way for us to be able to help to do that. I think about it in my own life. I think my first male teacher wasn't until I was in high school.

[Jacqueline Coley]

Yeah.

[Governor Wes Moore]

And my first male teacher of color wasn't until college. I mean, like, I want to make sure. That no young person has to have that experience. I want to make sure that, you know, and I think about it, things with my mom, like I was raised by an amazing mom, like an immigrant single mother who I swear like has wings on. But I know one thing and she'll tell you this, the one thing she can never do, teach me how to be a man. Because she doesn't know that it's the same way. I have an amazing 14 year old daughter. I love that girl with everything in me and I feel like I can teach her so much. You know what? I can never teach her how to be a woman because I don't know. She needs women in her life to help to do that. And when we are having situations where so many of our young men and boys are being asked to figure this out on their own with an understanding that our young men and boys, they're going to learn. The question is who's teaching them and what are they learning? We have to make sure that we're doing our part to ensure that our young men and boys are taking up their rightful position inside of our society and to make sure we're doing our part as a government to not do what, frankly, what has been done all throughout my life, which is looking at us like we are the problem and looking at us like we're the thing that needs to get solved instead of the thing that needs to get unearthed.

[Van Lathan]

Wes is sisters screaming at their phones and their computers right now. By the way, the name of that lady is Blackgirl D. She was speaking with a violence intervention group with Mayor Scott. Mayor Scott later talked and she went crazy. Go follow her. It was very moving stuff. It's amazing. There are sisters that are screaming at their phones and their TVs right now that what you said a second ago is centering men. I'm just giving you the opportunity to address them because I know that they're going to be like. Like the statement that society, if you want safe women, you need safe men. They're going to say you're centering men. What would you say to them when they said that?

[Governor Wes Moore]

I am, I am. Because I don't understand.

[Donnie]

Like.

[Governor Wes Moore]

As I was coming up, you know what? You know what my family needed for me to be a protector. Do you know my family needed me for me to be a provider. Do you know my family needs for me to be an example for them and someone who understands how vital I am to my family. Do you know that can and would never happen if I never felt that.

[Van Lathan]

Or experienced that my dad used to say, the world ain't got no use for a do nothing man.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Listen, listen. I tell you right now, if I was to do nothing, man, I wouldn't have my wife either. Cause she had no need for me either.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I guess I don't even look at it as century men. I feel like you're more so pouring into the male community. And in essence you're saying, or young boys, it helps women on the other side. I don't look at it as. You're only focusing on this. It's like it balances each other out. We help each other out. I would hope that that's how people see it.

[Governor Wes Moore]

No, And I love that. Because the truth is, is that like, do you know who some of the greatest champions of our work around, and it's been the nation leading work around young men and boys, women. Because they're like, that's my son, that is my husband, that is my father, that is my uncle, that is my friend. So it's like, it's actually women who have been some of the ones who've jumped up and be like, thank you for actually making sure that our young boys know that they have an important and a rightful place in our society and that, you know.

I remember I was at a barbershop. I was taking my son. That's when I used to have to go to the barbershop. I ain't got to go to barbershops anymore. Now I take my son. And we're having a conversation. And actually, ironically, we're having a conversation about Vice President Harris. This is early. And I remember they were having this conversation about black women and this important moment that we had. And somebody there said something that really stuck with me. And he's a dad with girls, so he's a straight girl dad, right? And he said, he's like, listen, I love this and I love all the things people are doing and talking about. But he's like, I just don't want black girl magic to turn into black boy. Tragic. I don't want this to turn into a conversation about all the wrong of our boys while we're lifting up our girls. And my point is this. We gotta lift them both up. We're not lifting up our boys to the detriment of lifting up our girls.

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[Governor Wes Moore]

We're gonna keep lifting up our girls. But at the same time, I am looking at my boys and I'm saying, take your rightful place and do your job.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Cause we need each other.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Cause we need each other.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I agree Man. Okay, I agree.

[Van Lathan]

Listen to it. And then from the nigga in the suit. All right, so you were. I have a specific question to ask you. But when I was doing the research, it's crazy. You were a college football player, a soldier, an investment banker, a Rhodes scholar, and a television producer.

[Governor Wes Moore]

I was like that.

[Van Lathan]

I was thinking to myself, you know, that's a lot of jobs. But then I remember you. Jamaican.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Jamaican, yeah. Tree Joe.

[Van Lathan]

I want to make you. I want to ask you about one job in particular. Banking. You worked at Deutsche bank during the time of financial crisis.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yeah, well, actually, I was at Deutsche before and I was at City during.

[Van Lathan]

City during.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yep.

[Van Lathan]

So this dovetails into, like, dovetails with, should I say, a lot of what's going on in America right now. Because in all of my studying and looking into the financial crisis, I see potential economic. Just pit right now developing at the top of our economy with AI, with data centers, with the circular economy that we have right now. I see housing in a really precarious situation. I see a lot of things, a lot of economic situations that are dangerous for the average American.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Absolutely.

[Van Lathan]

You are someone, no matter what anyone says, that definitely has ambitions to hire office. Wes, you're running for president. We all know it. Don't even worry about it. We not even gonna ask. We not even gonna ask. We moving on. What did your experience as an investment banker, which, I gotta be honest with you, is one of my top, most reviled professions. Right. What did your experience as an investment banker tell you about the American economy? What did being an investment banker during the time of financial crisis tell you about the average American and how we bailed out all the bets that you guys were making in those buildings and all of that stuff? What did you learn from that experience that would make you someone or makes you someone that could have a real say on the American economy and make it work for the average American?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yeah, you know, it's. I. I remember when I first started working in finance, like, again, that's not my background. You know, I studied. I studied international relations and, you know, did work in economics and this and that, but I never studied anything in finance.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Governor Wes Moore]

And I remember having a conversation with. With a mentor of mine, and he said, if you really want to understand that stuff, you gotta understand budgets. You understand budgets work. Because. Because in many ways, he's right. All governance is. Is budgets. Look at where people put their money, and that could tell you everything you need to know about where their priorities are. So I started doing internships and eventually started working in. In the world of finance. And the truth is, is that I actually use the things I learn there every single day now.

Understanding numbers, understanding the budgets, understanding how we can both be both fiscally disciplined as a state and at the same time make big bets on our people.

[Jacqueline Coley]

Right.

[Governor Wes Moore]

The thing I also learned is this. This inequity will drown us if we don't fix it. That one of the big issues I had with the many big issues that I had with this, with the big beautiful bill, for example, that went through is what a lot of people don't realize about it. It is not just adding trillions of dollars of debt. It's also the largest consolidation of wealth that the world has ever seen.

It is making it so that the wealthy will always be wealthy, and those who do not have an opportunity and have not entered into that phase will always be challenged. And it is so deeply dangerous about how that work works. I think about the tax reform work that we've done in Maryland that, again, my training actually gave me a clear understanding of how I wanted to do tax form in Maryland, where I said, you know what? We're going to give the middle class a tax cut. We gave military veterans a tax cut in our state. And you know what? Told to pay more the wealthy. That in Maryland, we did an entire frame where I said, I'm giving the middle class and giving working families a tax cut. But those who are wealthy, I'm going to ask you to pay more so we can have the best public schools in this country.

[Van Lathan]

Why do you think people react so viciously when someone like Zoram Hamdani says something like that? When it seems as if that is the way to make the average American.

Economically sound, which is to give them more money in their pocket and to make sure that people at the top of the tax rate are paying their taxes?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Because I think it goes back to who, Who. Who reacts so violently to it. It's the people who we are asking to pay more. And the. And the thing about it is, and why I find this to be so, you know, so wild to me is the top tax bracket right now is like 37, 38%.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Y' all know, like, during the time, like, Nixon was at, like, 90.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. It was like, way high. The great compression.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Exactly. We do know that if you look at what Donald Trump has now instituted, it is literally the biggest giveaway to millionaires and billionaires that this country has ever seen. What is happening right now as we speak, the same time that he's talking about cutting people off snap and cutting people off their health care. We are making it so much easier and taking off the tax burden off of millionaires and billionaires inside of this country.

So to be honest with you, I don't have. When I hear people who are complaining about the fact that I am asked in Maryland that we reform the tax code to give the middle class a tax cut and ask the wealthy to pay a little more so I don't have to lay off police officers and firefighters and making sure we have the best public education system in this country and we can invest in our roads and our bridges that I, I tell people I am unapologetic about it and not because I don't know what I'm talking about. It's because I do know what I'm talking about and I see the game that has been going on for so long. That is our obligation now. Make sure that we're fixing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, since we can't talk about, you know what, maybe some of your goals are past.

[Governor Wes Moore]

We can talk about my goals.

[Rachel Lindsay]

We're not going to talk about them past.

[Van Lathan]

Are you ready to ask him? Ask him the question. He'll ask.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Ask whatever question.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Reelection.

[Governor Wes Moore]

I got reelection in less than a year. And I'm trying to tell you something, too. I am.

But I am, I'm excited because we got a story to tell. I think right now, if people want to see what it looks like not just to push back on Trump because we can talk about all that all day long, but what it means to push forward for the people. I think there's no more exciting story right now than what's happening than in the state of Maryland that we've had amongst the fastest drops in violent crime, amongst the fastest drops in unemployment inside the entire country from one of the fastest job growth rates. We've added over a hundred thousand new jobs since I've been the governor. Over 30,000 new businesses have either started or come to the state of Maryland since I have been the governor. We have the first state with a service year option for all of our high school graduates that the first state that now has a focus on ending child poverty and the racial wealth gap, like Maryland is moving. And so, like, I'm really excited that next year we're going to get a chance to go back in front of our people and ask them for another four.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I like that you say push forward when, yeah, like when you look at the attack that Trump is having on blue states in particular and how he's talking about withholding snap Benefits from blue states. Exactly. Like how. What does pushing forward look like? What kind of action can you take towards something like that?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yeah, I mean, like something perfect example, you know, if you take SNAP as one example, when he decided to break the law so he could starve my kids and starve our families, we sued him and we won in courts. Because I'm thankful that at least the courts understood that cruelty also is not just cruel. Oftentimes cruelty is illegal. And they held our case on it. And so we beat Trump in court. We beat Trump multiple times in court now, actually at this point. But that was an example of pushing back. An example of pushing forward was when Donald Trump then started complaining and saying that he is not sure if he wants to follow the court order. What I did was I then tapped into our fiscal.

[Donnie]

Our, our.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Our fiscal Fiscal discipline fund, which is, by the way, a fund that's made up of. Of capital gains taxes. So people who know what capital gains are and actually benefit capital gains. There's a fund that we have in Maryland that has, that has that money captured. I dipped in $62 million into our fiscal responsibility and fiscal discipline fund and said we're gonna use that capital to make sure that SNAP is not gonna be interrupted for the people of our state. So that's an example of we both push back by suing them and we push forward by saying we're gonna tap into these funds from capital gains to make sure that people's SNAP is not gonna be interrupted and people are not gonna have to. Gonna have to go hungry. Cuz we have a President of the United States who's acting like a child.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Have you had to have direct conversations with him?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Oh, yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Oh yeah. I mean, we've had direct conversations with the President, some of which he makes up what we talked about. Makes up what I said. It's so wild. But absolutely. And direct conversations with members of the administration. But the truth is, is that like, it's not that the relationship between our federal government and our states has been altered in many cases, just been severed. Like there are things I will find out about, not because I get a call from the White House, not because the Chief of staff hits me up, not because I get a cabinet secretary says I need to. Is it okay if I speak to the governor sometime today? I will find out because my phone buzzes and I get a news alert that Donald Trump has decided that the FBI building is now no longer coming to the state of Maryland because it's a liberal state, that Donald Trump has decided that our people out in western Maryland, who frankly voted for him by 78%. Now, we're not going to get any federal disaster relief because Donald Trump literally says support from Maryland is not warranted, despite the fact that all of our people in western Maryland, and we were some of the first boots on the ground when they had historic floods out there and they voted for him, that he now turns around and says, you're on your own. And which, by the way, that I was thankful because since we were some of the first boots on the ground, we provided millions of dollars to our folks out in western Maryland. And some of the first people that came out and endorsed me when I ran for reelection were actually a whole series of Republicans all across the state, to include the mayor of a town called Western Port, which is one of the towns that was most hit, who's been a lifelong Republican. But she says, but I'm supporting the governor because he shows up and he builds a table that's big enough for all of us.

[Van Lathan]

I got one more. Got one more touchy one for you.

[Governor Wes Moore]

This is all good.

[Van Lathan]

All right. So you've called out anti Semitism that you see in our society, but you've also been vocal in the past of the need to see a ceasefire in Gaza. A lot of politicians are not able to make the distinction between criticizing the state of Israel or criticizing the actions of the state of Israel in Gaza and holding space for Jewish brothers and sisters here and worldwide jewelry. How do you do that when other people seem unwilling to do it?

[Governor Wes Moore]

For me, this is not complicated because, like, for example, I am a patriot. I love the United States of America. I love this country. I have fought for this country. I will always fight for this country. But I think that the president of the United States right now is abhorrent. And I don't see how it can be any different where I can say, I believe in the Israeli people, I believe in the state of Israel. And I think what Bibi Netanyahu is doing right now, when you are using.

[Donnie]

Food.

[Governor Wes Moore]

As a war tool, like what we're seeing in Gaza, or when we are seeing what's happening right now in the west bank with the settlers and allowing settlers to just do what it is, whatever it is they want to do, I don't know how anyone can just sit on their hands and think that this is okay. It is not okay. And so I have had the chance. I sat with the families of hostages from October 7th in my office and prayed with them. I've also sat with Palestinian Students and Palestinians in my Satan sat my office and prayed with them too. And so while, yes, my heart absolutely breaks for what Hamas did on October 7th, and I'll never forget that, I also know that for my Palestinian folks in Maryland and our Palestinian students, I also know that the heartbreak for them that we have now seen in Gaza and that we have now seen and that we're seeing in the west bank and throughout, that that is real. And my heartbreaks for them, too, and also for them that for much of their. Much of the oppression and the heartbreak that started well before October 7th. So my baseline is humanity. And I don't think that humanity has a matrix to.

[Van Lathan]

It doesn't have a side.

[Governor Wes Moore]

It doesn't have a side that if we are all God's children, then by definition we're brothers and sisters. And so I don't know why anybody can justify the idea that some brothers and sisters deserve a greater level of humanity for than other brothers and sisters. And I've been very clear that in my state.

Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, like, agnostic, everybody, everybody has a right to feel safe in my communities. Everybody has a right to feel safe in their own skin. Everybody has a right to feel safe in their homes of worship. And so my belief that the Palestinian people deserve, Deserve a safe and a restful place inside of the region, and that Israelis deserve a safe and restful place inside the region, I don't think that saying. I believe that both those two things are real and that leadership requires leadership in Israel and throughout the region requires people who actually believe that too.

[Van Lathan]

That.

[Governor Wes Moore]

I don't think that that's a. That's.

A comment that is extreme, in any case, shouldn't be. If humanity is extreme, then I don't know what place in a society we're at right now.

[Van Lathan]

All right, lightning round. Culture. Go. We ready? We ready? Okay. All right, first question. Lightning round. Who's your favorite Republican?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Oh, in Maryland or across the country?

[Van Lathan]

Who's your favorite Republican?

And don't say Lincoln.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Come on, man.

[Governor Wes Moore]

You know. You know. You know who I love? Actually, there's a lot of Republicans who are my guys.

The mayor of Lonaconing, Mayor Coburn, Jack Coburn, who's a lifelong Republican. And I was talking with him on my. I think it was my third day in office. I call him up, and he was having a water crisis, having a bold water advisory. And I said, you know what, Mayor? I'm on my way. And so I went out there, and when I met him, I said, Mr. Mayor, it's good to meet you, Wesmore Governor. He said, Mr. Governor, do me a favor. Turn 360 degrees. He said, Only guarantee I can give you is you ain't see a Democrat within five miles of anywhere.

[Jacqueline Coley]

You just look.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, wow.

[Governor Wes Moore]

And he said, but you're the first governor that's been here since 1996. And he has become a very, very close and dear friend. So if I had to pick one. And I got a lot of Republicans who I'm very close with, but I pick one, I go with my guy, Mayor Coburn.

[Van Lathan]

Who's your favorite Wire character? Ooh.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Omar. Omar. I think Omar. That's a hard one. Actually, Marlo's great, but I gotta go with Omar. Cause I think Omar is the most. Is the most complicated of all the characters.

[Van Lathan]

Marlo and Omar. He didn't pick no police. Okay. Now.

[Governor Wes Moore]

And you know what's crazy? And remember how Omar. After all he did, how he went out?

[Donnie]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

It was just random sneak.

[Governor Wes Moore]

That's insane.

[Van Lathan]

Random. Kid just saw him, took his shot. It was like, little homie Kenard. Yes. Yeah. Kenard almost couldn't believe that he killed Omar. Omar. Like, he was like. He saw Omar. He took the shot and that, like, the Wire is just amazing fiction. He's like, oh, my God, he actually died. He's like. You know what I mean?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

If you pay attention to that. If you pay attention to that scene when Omar walks by. Kennard. Kennard is torturing a cat. He's already. Yep. His brain is already scrambled from everything that he's seen. Don't get me started talking about the Wire, Okay?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yeah.

[Donnie]

All right.

[Van Lathan]

You got one game to win. This is football.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Okay?

[Van Lathan]

Play football.

Are you gonna take Lamar Jackson or. And I'm gonna name one, two, three, four, five, six quarterbacks. You got one game to win.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Right now.

[Van Lathan]

Right now.

[Governor Wes Moore]

And healthy.

[Van Lathan]

And healthy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And healthy.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Okay?

[Van Lathan]

One game to win. Are you going to take Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Lamar.

[Van Lathan]

Lamar Jackson or Jalen Hurts?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Lamar.

[Van Lathan]

Lamar Jackson or Drake May? Lamar. Lamar Jackson or Patrick Mahomes?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Lamar.

[Van Lathan]

Lamar Jackson or Joe Burrow?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Lamar.

[Van Lathan]

Lamar Jackson or Bo Nix?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Lamar.

[Van Lathan]

Then why he won nothing? If you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I was gonna say you sounded like a Cowboys.

[Van Lathan]

Then why ain't he want nothing shout out to him? I love watching him play. If that's the case, then you explain to us. You tell us why he ain't won nothing yet.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Because every quarterback you just mentioned, if he's had one game to win.

[Van Lathan]

One game to win.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Every quarterback you mentioned is a very good quarterback. Actually, some I would say are just good. They're not very good yet. Well, Bonix, Drake, May and Bo Nix, I'm kind of like it's still early.

[Van Lathan]

Drake May still early.

[Governor Wes Moore]

He's playing very well right now.

[Van Lathan]

Right now. I just gave you the guys on top of the game right now.

[Governor Wes Moore]

A lot of those quarterbacks are very good. Not one is transformational.

[Van Lathan]

Not Patrick Mahomes isn't transformational.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Patrick Mahomes. Patrick Mahomes is going to be a first ballot hall of Famer. I'm not taking nothing like respect shout out to Patrick Mahomes, but Patrick Mahomes has not changed the game.

[Van Lathan]

Okay?

[Governor Wes Moore]

That's the difference.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know about.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Patrick Mahomes is the first battle hall of Famer. Patrick Mahomes, Patrick Mahomes. When we talk about who are the great quarterbacks of all time, right, yes, you are talking about your Bradies, you're talking about your Mannings, and yes, you are talking about your Patrick Mahomes. You are 100%. But there is no quarterback that you mention in there that has changed the game the way that Lamar Jackson has going. Lamar Jackson's on his game. Think about it. If you're a team that's preparing for the Baltimore Ravens, right, And you have your scout team out there to prepare, who do you put in quarterback to prepare for Lamar Jackson? Do you put a wide receiver to play quarterback? Because how do you, how do you then understand the speed the Lamar Jackson's? Or, or do you. Or, or do you put a. Do you put a. A quarterback who does not have the same kind of touch that Lamar Jackson has? Lamar Jackson is like a Swiss army knife. It doesn't matter what you're looking for. He's got the tool for it and there's nothing like it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

So do you think that he has to. No, he does.

[Governor Wes Moore]

He does.

[Rachel Lindsay]

If he's all these things. Wait, let me ask you this.

[Donnie]

I'm sorry.

[Van Lathan]

If he's all these things.

[Governor Wes Moore]

You said one game.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't disagree with how phenomenal he is. Does he have to leave the Ravens to achieve a Super, Super Bowl?

[Governor Wes Moore]

That's a very good question. Here. Here's the challenge. There is no roster in the NFL right now like the Ravens. Not one. Because think about it, right? You got just our offense, Lamar Jackson, you got Derrick Henry as your running back. You have not just Isaiah Likely, but Isaiah Likely and Mark Andrews as your tight ends. Then on the outside you got Zay flowers, you got DeAndre, you got D. Hop, you got DeAndre Hopkins. It is like a video game. There is no roster in the NFL like what the Ravens are putting together. And despite that, we're 500.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Can't get it done.

[Governor Wes Moore]

So there's this thing about what it means to play like a Raven that we have when we have Ray Lewis and Ed Reed and Terrell Suggs. Like, when you walk out into that field, man, you play like a Raven and the other team knows it. Like, we go into that game up 7 every single game when kickoff happens, because there's a mentality that you have. You're not beating us today. We don't have that right now.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's the problem. Sound like a Cowboys man.

I like it.

[Van Lathan]

I love him.

[Governor Wes Moore]

There's nobody like him.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, he's. He's great.

[Governor Wes Moore]

If you talk. If you talk. If you have a real talk conversation, seriously, a real talk conversation with any of those fans, Eagles fans, Patriots fans, Chiefs fans.

[Van Lathan]

I know.

[Governor Wes Moore]

They really are.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Governor Wes Moore]

And they. And they. And they should be. Even though I'm not putting the blame on. On. On Jalen. But that's a whole another thing. But if you talk to any of those fans and you ask them, like, and have an honest conversation with them, would you trade your quarterback for a prime time. Lamar Jackson? Every one of those fans, if they're not lying to you, would say yes. Not the Chiefs.

[Van Lathan]

Come on, Wes. Not the. Not the Chiefs.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't even think the Bills would.

[Van Lathan]

Not. Not the Chiefs.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yeah, these Bills fans are arrogant, too.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I don't think the Bills would either.

[Governor Wes Moore]

And Josh Allen's a good quarterback. Like, Josh Allen's a good quarterback. He should never have beaten Lamar last year for mvp, but he's a very good quarterback. He's just not transformational. Not transmission.

[Van Lathan]

All right, look, Governor Moore, we are trying to figure out what we are doing in this country right now. We are hoping against hope that democracy survives. We're hoping against hope that people are not wholesale, immiserated. You know, our government taking extrajudicial action in places like the Caribbean, straight up killing people.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yes.

[Van Lathan]

There is so much going on. What gives you hope for the next year, the next two years, the next four years, when people are looking all over the place at a country that seems to be in disrepair. What gives you hope?

[Governor Wes Moore]

History.

I think about, like, the history of my state, and we were talking a little about it earlier, right. Where the history of Maryland is deeply complicated and bloody.

And in the process of going through this 250, I really even spent a lot of time in our own history and I think about the fact that, you know, we are the state of Harriet Tubman and the state of Thurgood Marshall and the state of Frederick Douglass. And as difficult as this moment is, I remember that they saw worse. Right. And I literally do. I will sometimes think when I'm having a really tough day, I'll go back and I'll read up on history, and I think to myself, imagine what a hypothetical conversation would be like between me and Harriet Tubman, where I'm sitting there with Harriet Tubman, who, by the way, I made a general, because one of the great things about being a governor is I can commission officers. So I made Harriet Tubman a general. So she is now General Harriet Tubman.

[Rachel Lindsay]

How did I even know that?

[Governor Wes Moore]

I need to send y' all that see? And again, the work of. The work of repair.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Governor Wes Moore]

She is now General Harriet Tubman.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Rightfully so.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Rightfully so. Because there's anybody who deserved. Who deserves stars, it is Harriet Tubman.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Jacqueline Coley]

So she.

[Governor Wes Moore]

So I think about what a conversation would be like with me and General Harriet Tubman and telling her how difficult my day was.

And looking at her reaction, you know, a woman who literally, even when she forged her way to her own freedom, if she would have stayed in Pennsylvania, no one would have blamed her. Like, you got yours, man. Like, you're good.

And she immediately then decided to go back and go bring dozens more and dozens more and dozens more people who saw their freedom because of her. People whose families now are still walking around our society because of her, because their ancestors would have been lost had they stayed down where they were. But it was Harry, it was General Harriet Tubman who showed them a pathway to freedom. And so the thing that does give me hope in all this is that, listen, I am not going to let Donald Trump write the final chapter in this story. I'm not going to let you know it's the same way we were pushing on the redistricting effort right now in the state of Maryland. I'm not going to let Donald Trump to be the one to determine what our democracy looks like. The people determine what our democracy looks like. This is why I'm so fervent and why I am not bending on this one, where it's like, y', all, history. Let history be our guide, and let history be the thing that's going to give us the motivation, the push that we need going forward to make sure that we know that we are going to build a society that those who came before us hoped for. And we'll build a society of those who come after us that they deserve.

[Van Lathan]

Thank you for joining us on higher learning.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You'll have to come back when you run for president. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Appreciate you, brother.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Y' all need to come down to Maryland for our reelection.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I'll be there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I like the way Maryland sounds. I'm about to be a Real Housewife of Potomac.

[Van Lathan]

Thank you so much. All right, take kneecaps off, but do not stop learning. Get well soon, Rach.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Thanks. I'll be back soon.

[Van Lathan]

Rach Charles.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm Rachel. Lindsay. I can't believe it took you the whole podcast to do this. You're mixing two different people.

[Van Lathan]

Ray Charles.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, wait. I guess he does it a little, too. But I was more so thinking Stevie when you said that.

[Van Lathan]

So Stevie does more drastically. Ray kind of had this.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah, he was.

[Van Lathan]

This was Ray. You got the right. I'm Ray Charles. Ask me a question about Elvis.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Did Elvis steal black people's music?

[Van Lathan]

Fuck him. Now you got the right one, baby.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Bye, guys.